The Gadarene rush

I quote George Will here  not to vaunt over liberals, as he does, but to relish his language, especially his Biblical allusion in the last of these sentences. Will first quotes the president, who said of the health care legislation, “We are on the precipice of an achievement that’s eluded Congresses and presidents for generations,” and then riffs on the metaphor:

The 2008 elections gave liberals the curse of opportunity, and they have used it to reveal themselves ruinously. The protracted health-care debacle has highlighted this fact: Some liberals consider the legislation's unpopularity a reason to redouble their efforts to inflict it on Americans who, such liberals think, are too benighted to understand that their betters know best. The essence of contemporary liberalism is the illiberal conviction that Americans, in their comprehensive incompetence, need minute supervision by government, which liberals believe exists to spare citizens the torture of thinking and choosing. . . .

If the Democrats' congressional leaders are determined to continue their kamikaze flight to incineration, they will ignore Massachusetts's redundant evidence of public disgust. They will leaven their strategy of briberies with procedural cynicism — delaying certification of Massachusetts's Senate choice, or misusing “reconciliation” to evade Senate rules, or forcing the House to swallow its last shred of pride in order to rush the Senate bill to the president's desk. Surely any such trickery would be one brick over a load for some hitherto servile members of the Democratic House and Senate caucuses, giving them an excuse to halt their party’s Gadarene rush toward the precipice.

via George F. Will – Democrats on the precipice of failure – washingtonpost.com.

That last, of course, is a reference to what happened after our Lord cast out the demons from a Gadarene man, whereupon they entered a herd of pigs that then ran off a cliff.  Can you think of other examples of a “Gadarene rush”?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Daniel Gorman

    Gene Veith asks, “Can you think of other examples of a “Gadarene rush”?”

    President Bush’s use of his supposed “political capital” in 2005 to support a Wall Street takeover of Social Security. President Bush could have proposed a bipartisan solution to the problems of Social Security and possibly reversed his party’s Gadarene rush toward the electoral precipice. Instead, he promoted a crazy scheme that would have bankrupted many seniors in 2009.

    It’s not too late for President Obama. Although he’s wasted his first year in office promoting a host of grandiose unworkable schemes, President Obama could still reverse his party’s Gadarene rush. He could host a series of meetings with Republican and Democratic congressional leaders to work out compromise legislation to solve our most pressing problems.

  • Daniel Gorman

    Gene Veith asks, “Can you think of other examples of a “Gadarene rush”?”

    President Bush’s use of his supposed “political capital” in 2005 to support a Wall Street takeover of Social Security. President Bush could have proposed a bipartisan solution to the problems of Social Security and possibly reversed his party’s Gadarene rush toward the electoral precipice. Instead, he promoted a crazy scheme that would have bankrupted many seniors in 2009.

    It’s not too late for President Obama. Although he’s wasted his first year in office promoting a host of grandiose unworkable schemes, President Obama could still reverse his party’s Gadarene rush. He could host a series of meetings with Republican and Democratic congressional leaders to work out compromise legislation to solve our most pressing problems.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Will is indeed a master of language. The opening sentence, The 2008 elections gave liberals the curse of opportunity, and they have used it to reveal themselves ruinously. is both true and artful.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Will is indeed a master of language. The opening sentence, The 2008 elections gave liberals the curse of opportunity, and they have used it to reveal themselves ruinously. is both true and artful.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    I think the hope-and-change-and-besides-he’s-not-Bush clamor that got Obama elected qualifies as a Gadarene rush. Some of the pigs are already over the cliff.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    I think the hope-and-change-and-besides-he’s-not-Bush clamor that got Obama elected qualifies as a Gadarene rush. Some of the pigs are already over the cliff.

  • Carl Vehse

    The question is whether tODD will demand George Will apologize to Zerobama and the majority members of Congress for comparing them to demonic swine. That’s almost as intolerably truthful as referring to them as “demonrats.”

    George Will also quotes Zero’s Dec. 15 statement, “We are on the precipice of an achievement…”

    Perhaps the TOTUS will be blamed for this oxymoronic nonsense.

  • Carl Vehse

    The question is whether tODD will demand George Will apologize to Zerobama and the majority members of Congress for comparing them to demonic swine. That’s almost as intolerably truthful as referring to them as “demonrats.”

    George Will also quotes Zero’s Dec. 15 statement, “We are on the precipice of an achievement…”

    Perhaps the TOTUS will be blamed for this oxymoronic nonsense.

  • Jerry

    At shopping malls and megastores all over the US on the morning following Thanksgiving–a major transfer of our wealth overseas, and for what?

  • Jerry

    At shopping malls and megastores all over the US on the morning following Thanksgiving–a major transfer of our wealth overseas, and for what?

  • S. Bauer

    “Can you think of other examples of a “Gadarene rush”?”

    The second Iraq war comes to mind.

    And I thought a “Gadarene rush” is what you get after drinking a bottle of Gadarene.

  • S. Bauer

    “Can you think of other examples of a “Gadarene rush”?”

    The second Iraq war comes to mind.

    And I thought a “Gadarene rush” is what you get after drinking a bottle of Gadarene.

  • Jonathan

    Carl 4,
    I, too, have never though of a precipice as necessarily preceeding the reaching of a summit, apex or zenith. So, he must be thinking that the *achievement* will be to successfully transcend the heretofore unbridgable chasm. My only response to that is–when pigs fly.

  • Jonathan

    Carl 4,
    I, too, have never though of a precipice as necessarily preceeding the reaching of a summit, apex or zenith. So, he must be thinking that the *achievement* will be to successfully transcend the heretofore unbridgable chasm. My only response to that is–when pigs fly.

  • Peter Leavitt

    A good example of a demonic Gadarene rush would be the voters who elected Obama in 2008. Since then everything else including the Health Care fiasco is mere detail.

  • Peter Leavitt

    A good example of a demonic Gadarene rush would be the voters who elected Obama in 2008. Since then everything else including the Health Care fiasco is mere detail.

  • J

    44,ooo Americans die each year from lack of access to health care.

  • J

    44,ooo Americans die each year from lack of access to health care.

  • Carl Vehse
  • Carl Vehse
  • Carl Vehse

    Wrong, J! It’s closer to a million Americans die each year from lack of access to health care. These are the unborn Americans who are murdered by abortion rather than being provided access to even the most basic heath care of being allowed to be born.

    The 44,000 number you refer to is from an American Journal of Public Health September, 2009, article concluding that “uninsured Americans—between the ages of 17 and 64—have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have private insurance.”

    This conclusion was based on data from 9,000 people that was collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) between 1986 and 2000. The 44,000 (or as claimed, “44,789″) comes from estimating the risk factor’s effect on deaths after allegedly correcting for age, gender, race, income, education, employment, smoking, alcohol use, assessed health and body mass index. Criminal background, illegal alien status, genetic history, or place of residence were not mentioned as being included in the data manipulation corrections.

    The 44,789 number is of dubious value, J.

  • Carl Vehse

    Wrong, J! It’s closer to a million Americans die each year from lack of access to health care. These are the unborn Americans who are murdered by abortion rather than being provided access to even the most basic heath care of being allowed to be born.

    The 44,000 number you refer to is from an American Journal of Public Health September, 2009, article concluding that “uninsured Americans—between the ages of 17 and 64—have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have private insurance.”

    This conclusion was based on data from 9,000 people that was collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) between 1986 and 2000. The 44,000 (or as claimed, “44,789″) comes from estimating the risk factor’s effect on deaths after allegedly correcting for age, gender, race, income, education, employment, smoking, alcohol use, assessed health and body mass index. Criminal background, illegal alien status, genetic history, or place of residence were not mentioned as being included in the data manipulation corrections.

    The 44,789 number is of dubious value, J.

  • Jonathan

    J. A lot more people with access to health care also die each year. It seems to be a terminal condition for everyone. I wonder what percentage of those 44K without health care actually die in hospitals.

  • Jonathan

    J. A lot more people with access to health care also die each year. It seems to be a terminal condition for everyone. I wonder what percentage of those 44K without health care actually die in hospitals.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    Well, I’m just shocked — SHOCKED — that people who don’t have access to health care have a higher risk of dying than those who do.

    Let me leap to the next conclusion and assert that the reason these people don’t have access to health care is because they’re oppressed by big rich corporations and soulless republicans.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    Well, I’m just shocked — SHOCKED — that people who don’t have access to health care have a higher risk of dying than those who do.

    Let me leap to the next conclusion and assert that the reason these people don’t have access to health care is because they’re oppressed by big rich corporations and soulless republicans.

  • Carl Vehse

    How about the “Gadarene rush” to illegal drugs, at fast food joints, and to couches in front of the TV?

  • Carl Vehse

    How about the “Gadarene rush” to illegal drugs, at fast food joints, and to couches in front of the TV?

  • Peter Leavitt

    Aw, c’mon guys, leave poor J and his pedestrian victim argument alone.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Aw, c’mon guys, leave poor J and his pedestrian victim argument alone.

  • J

    Thanks a bunch, Pete. I give you credit. Your contempt for those in the lower tax brackets seems genuine enough.

  • J

    Thanks a bunch, Pete. I give you credit. Your contempt for those in the lower tax brackets seems genuine enough.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    As has been noted, the previous decade provided us with no few examples of “Gadarene rushes” (green grew the rushes, O!). In addition to the already mentioned rushes to mangle Social Security and the mad rush to war in Iraq, there was, of course, the panicked rush over the cliff that was the enacting of the Patriot Act. Those Republicans who now find themselves screaming their heads off about the months-long “rush” to reform health care might want to revisit those scant weeks between 9/11 and the passing of that law.

    And Carl (@4), please. I have noted before that, whether I agree with everything he writes or not, George Will is a clever and insightful writer. Two words, as it happens, that I will never apply to your use of such childish epithets as “Zerobama”, “demonrats”, “TOTUS”, or, just to be clear, “poopoohead” (should it come to your using that, as well).

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    As has been noted, the previous decade provided us with no few examples of “Gadarene rushes” (green grew the rushes, O!). In addition to the already mentioned rushes to mangle Social Security and the mad rush to war in Iraq, there was, of course, the panicked rush over the cliff that was the enacting of the Patriot Act. Those Republicans who now find themselves screaming their heads off about the months-long “rush” to reform health care might want to revisit those scant weeks between 9/11 and the passing of that law.

    And Carl (@4), please. I have noted before that, whether I agree with everything he writes or not, George Will is a clever and insightful writer. Two words, as it happens, that I will never apply to your use of such childish epithets as “Zerobama”, “demonrats”, “TOTUS”, or, just to be clear, “poopoohead” (should it come to your using that, as well).

  • Jonathan

    TOTUS an epithet? Here I just thought it was an innocent pun aimed at his penchant for a certain technology crutch. I’m still on the look out for those pedestrian victims of the healthcare paucity plague.

  • Jonathan

    TOTUS an epithet? Here I just thought it was an innocent pun aimed at his penchant for a certain technology crutch. I’m still on the look out for those pedestrian victims of the healthcare paucity plague.

  • J

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/169216.php

    Here you go, Jon. If we’re going to mock the sick and poor as we sing God’s praises on Sunday, let’s do so to the children w/out health insurance.

  • J

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/169216.php

    Here you go, Jon. If we’re going to mock the sick and poor as we sing God’s praises on Sunday, let’s do so to the children w/out health insurance.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jonathan (@18), here, I’ll copy the dictionary definition for you:
    ep⋅i⋅thet [ep-uh-thet] –noun
    1. any word or phrase applied to a person or thing to describe an actual or attributed quality
    2. a characterizing word or phrase firmly associated with a person or thing and often used in place of an actual name, title, or the like
    3. a word, phrase, or expression used invectively as a term of abuse or contempt, to express hostility, etc.

    And while I, along with Peter, did like Will’s phrase “the curse of opportunity”, I have to question his take on the Biblical account. First of all, the Gadarene pigs didn’t rush over a cliff, they ran down a steep bank. But more importantly, whereas Will apparently views the demons in the account as rushing foolhardily to their own destruction, I see the demons’ actions as being quite intentional. After all, right after the pigs drown themselves, the people of the nearby city come out and ask Jesus to leave, because of the ruckus he’s making, as it were. Doesn’t it seem likely that this was what the demons intended with this act, to set the people’s hearts against hearing the Word of God?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jonathan (@18), here, I’ll copy the dictionary definition for you:
    ep⋅i⋅thet [ep-uh-thet] –noun
    1. any word or phrase applied to a person or thing to describe an actual or attributed quality
    2. a characterizing word or phrase firmly associated with a person or thing and often used in place of an actual name, title, or the like
    3. a word, phrase, or expression used invectively as a term of abuse or contempt, to express hostility, etc.

    And while I, along with Peter, did like Will’s phrase “the curse of opportunity”, I have to question his take on the Biblical account. First of all, the Gadarene pigs didn’t rush over a cliff, they ran down a steep bank. But more importantly, whereas Will apparently views the demons in the account as rushing foolhardily to their own destruction, I see the demons’ actions as being quite intentional. After all, right after the pigs drown themselves, the people of the nearby city come out and ask Jesus to leave, because of the ruckus he’s making, as it were. Doesn’t it seem likely that this was what the demons intended with this act, to set the people’s hearts against hearing the Word of God?

  • Rose

    While we seem to be discussing the inequities of the health system, please note that NIH spends ten times as much on research per death from HIV as from breast cancer. http://www.fairfoundation.org/factslinks.htm

  • Rose

    While we seem to be discussing the inequities of the health system, please note that NIH spends ten times as much on research per death from HIV as from breast cancer. http://www.fairfoundation.org/factslinks.htm

  • Richard

    tODD!

    That was an insightful remark about the Gadarene swine intentionally running to their own destruction and tieing that in with the subsequent act of the crowd telling our Lord to go away. Kudos!

  • Richard

    tODD!

    That was an insightful remark about the Gadarene swine intentionally running to their own destruction and tieing that in with the subsequent act of the crowd telling our Lord to go away. Kudos!

  • Jonathan

    Professor Todd, which definition would you say TOTUS fits best and why?

    And J, thanks for the tip, I will keep my eyes peeled for small children victims in the streets. I just don’t believe that more government mandated programs and redistribution is the answer to all our social ills–pass the offering plate.

  • Jonathan

    Professor Todd, which definition would you say TOTUS fits best and why?

    And J, thanks for the tip, I will keep my eyes peeled for small children victims in the streets. I just don’t believe that more government mandated programs and redistribution is the answer to all our social ills–pass the offering plate.

  • Jonathan

    Hmm, maybe there is a parallel between the demons’ intentional act and the progressives’ agenda to replace God?

  • Jonathan

    Hmm, maybe there is a parallel between the demons’ intentional act and the progressives’ agenda to replace God?

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    ” … NIH spends ten times as much on … HIV as from breast cancer…”

    That’s because HIV is a disease with Civil Rights.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    ” … NIH spends ten times as much on … HIV as from breast cancer…”

    That’s because HIV is a disease with Civil Rights.

  • Carl Vehse

    First of all, the Gadarene pigs didn’t rush over a cliff, they ran down a steep bank.”

    According to The Rob Roy on the Jordan: a canoe cruise in Palestine and Egypt, and the Waters of Damascus, by John MacGregor (John Murray, London, 1904, pp. 378-380), there are several cliff-like edges to steep slopes near the lake in the likely area where the Gadarene event took place.

    “… whereas Will apparently views the demons in the account as rushing foolhardily to their own destruction, I see the demons’ actions as being quite intentional.”

    There’s nothing in what George Will said or implied indicating his view that the Gadarene swine (or Congress) were rushing “foolhardily”.

  • Carl Vehse

    First of all, the Gadarene pigs didn’t rush over a cliff, they ran down a steep bank.”

    According to The Rob Roy on the Jordan: a canoe cruise in Palestine and Egypt, and the Waters of Damascus, by John MacGregor (John Murray, London, 1904, pp. 378-380), there are several cliff-like edges to steep slopes near the lake in the likely area where the Gadarene event took place.

    “… whereas Will apparently views the demons in the account as rushing foolhardily to their own destruction, I see the demons’ actions as being quite intentional.”

    There’s nothing in what George Will said or implied indicating his view that the Gadarene swine (or Congress) were rushing “foolhardily”.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Carl (@26) claimed, “There’s nothing in what George Will said or implied indicating his view that the Gadarene swine (or Congress) were rushing ‘foolhardily’.”

    Are George Will and I the only ones with dictionaries?
    fool⋅har⋅dy  [fool-hahr-dee] –adjective
    recklessly or thoughtlessly bold; foolishly rash or venturesome.
    Synonyms: impetuous, headlong, heedless, incautious.

    Now let’s look at some words that Will used in his article to describe the health care reform process: “incontinent”, “ludicrous”, to say nothing of the very substance of his article.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Carl (@26) claimed, “There’s nothing in what George Will said or implied indicating his view that the Gadarene swine (or Congress) were rushing ‘foolhardily’.”

    Are George Will and I the only ones with dictionaries?
    fool⋅har⋅dy  [fool-hahr-dee] –adjective
    recklessly or thoughtlessly bold; foolishly rash or venturesome.
    Synonyms: impetuous, headlong, heedless, incautious.

    Now let’s look at some words that Will used in his article to describe the health care reform process: “incontinent”, “ludicrous”, to say nothing of the very substance of his article.

  • Rose

    Mike @ 25. Thanks for the explanation. I’ve always wondered why we have to sell pink ribbons and have bake sales for our mothers and sisters.

  • Rose

    Mike @ 25. Thanks for the explanation. I’ve always wondered why we have to sell pink ribbons and have bake sales for our mothers and sisters.

  • Joe

    I just want to make sure I understand. The “rush” to war in Iraq has been listed a couple-few times. 9/11 happened (obviously) on 9.11.01 and we invaded Iraq on 3.20.03. This is a “mad rush?”

    I understand that the rush to war line was propagated by folks opposed to the war on both the left and the right but in light of the timeline it seems a bit revisionist to me.

  • Joe

    I just want to make sure I understand. The “rush” to war in Iraq has been listed a couple-few times. 9/11 happened (obviously) on 9.11.01 and we invaded Iraq on 3.20.03. This is a “mad rush?”

    I understand that the rush to war line was propagated by folks opposed to the war on both the left and the right but in light of the timeline it seems a bit revisionist to me.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe, Joe, Joe (@29), please tell me that you know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Please. Because if you know that, then you understand that 9/11 was not the cassus belli for the Iraq War (even if it did provide the pretext of fear and revenge necessary for it).

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe, Joe, Joe (@29), please tell me that you know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Please. Because if you know that, then you understand that 9/11 was not the cassus belli for the Iraq War (even if it did provide the pretext of fear and revenge necessary for it).

  • Joe

    tODD – No, I am not suggesting that Saddam and Osama were hanging in out in a cave and/or palace planning 9/11, but if we don’t tie the start of the rush to war to the event that was used (in large part) to justify it then there is no start date for the rush except whatever convenient date someone wants to pick to make their case stronger. Some neo-cons were suggesting an invasion of Iraq during the Clinton years to enforce the terms of the ceases-fire (another basis used to justify the invasion). http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
    Do I get to pick the mid to late 90s as the being of the “mad rush?” Cause if I do, I think I get to win. I only picked 9/11 as the beginning of the timeline because I don’t think it is consistent to claim Bush is evil for over-exaggerating or misleading us about an Iraqi 9/11 connection and then also divorce that supposed connect for the evaluation of the run up to the invasion.

  • Joe

    tODD – No, I am not suggesting that Saddam and Osama were hanging in out in a cave and/or palace planning 9/11, but if we don’t tie the start of the rush to war to the event that was used (in large part) to justify it then there is no start date for the rush except whatever convenient date someone wants to pick to make their case stronger. Some neo-cons were suggesting an invasion of Iraq during the Clinton years to enforce the terms of the ceases-fire (another basis used to justify the invasion). http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
    Do I get to pick the mid to late 90s as the being of the “mad rush?” Cause if I do, I think I get to win. I only picked 9/11 as the beginning of the timeline because I don’t think it is consistent to claim Bush is evil for over-exaggerating or misleading us about an Iraqi 9/11 connection and then also divorce that supposed connect for the evaluation of the run up to the invasion.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@31), using your same logic, there is no rush to reform health care, since it was proposed at least as far back as the early 90s by the Clintons. Compared to your timeline for the Iraq War, health care reform has been nice and slow! But I think you realize that such timelines miss the point entirely.

    Sure, some within the Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq even before they were in the Bush administration. And it was clearly always a desire of Bush, et al. But Bush didn’t even address the UN Security Council on the issue until September 12, 2002. Six months later, we were in Iraq. Compared to the so-called “rush” to reform health care, the war timeline was much more rushed.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@31), using your same logic, there is no rush to reform health care, since it was proposed at least as far back as the early 90s by the Clintons. Compared to your timeline for the Iraq War, health care reform has been nice and slow! But I think you realize that such timelines miss the point entirely.

    Sure, some within the Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq even before they were in the Bush administration. And it was clearly always a desire of Bush, et al. But Bush didn’t even address the UN Security Council on the issue until September 12, 2002. Six months later, we were in Iraq. Compared to the so-called “rush” to reform health care, the war timeline was much more rushed.

  • Joe

    “Joe (@31), using your same logic, there is no rush to reform health care, since it was proposed at least as far back as the early 90s by the Clintons.” Agreed – I am not claiming there is a rush to health care reform. (The only rush aspect of it I have ever taken issue of was the Christmas vote deadline.)

  • Joe

    “Joe (@31), using your same logic, there is no rush to reform health care, since it was proposed at least as far back as the early 90s by the Clintons.” Agreed – I am not claiming there is a rush to health care reform. (The only rush aspect of it I have ever taken issue of was the Christmas vote deadline.)

  • Joe

    By “of it” I mean the timming of it all. I take issue with many aspects of the bills passed in the House and the Senate.

  • Joe

    By “of it” I mean the timming of it all. I take issue with many aspects of the bills passed in the House and the Senate.

  • Joe

    tODD – @ 32 “But Bush didn’t even address the UN Security Council on the issue until September 12, 2002. Six months later, we were in Iraq.”

    Can I ask how long would have been long enough? I get the feeling from many, that the only acceptable timeline would be one that ends without an invasion whether it is two days long or 20 years long and that the rush aspect of it all is just a talking point. Personally, I am not offended by a 6th month interval from the UN address to the invasion.

  • Joe

    tODD – @ 32 “But Bush didn’t even address the UN Security Council on the issue until September 12, 2002. Six months later, we were in Iraq.”

    Can I ask how long would have been long enough? I get the feeling from many, that the only acceptable timeline would be one that ends without an invasion whether it is two days long or 20 years long and that the rush aspect of it all is just a talking point. Personally, I am not offended by a 6th month interval from the UN address to the invasion.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, it’s sort of a bad day to be complaining about the “rush” to health care, given this excerpt from an article in today’s New York Times:

    The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, deflected questions about health care. “We’re not on health care now,” he said. “We’ve talked a lot about it in the past.” He added, “There is no rush,” and noted that Congress still had most of this year to work on the health bills passed in 2009 by the Senate and the House.

    Ah, if only Congress had shown such restraint when it came to Iraq. But you know, all those WMDs they had hidden over there … and still do …

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, it’s sort of a bad day to be complaining about the “rush” to health care, given this excerpt from an article in today’s New York Times:

    The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, deflected questions about health care. “We’re not on health care now,” he said. “We’ve talked a lot about it in the past.” He added, “There is no rush,” and noted that Congress still had most of this year to work on the health bills passed in 2009 by the Senate and the House.

    Ah, if only Congress had shown such restraint when it came to Iraq. But you know, all those WMDs they had hidden over there … and still do …

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@35), in a way, you’re right. But ask yourself: if I falsely claimed that you had dynamite in your garage and that, in order to neutralize that threat, I needed to come burn your house down, how long would you want for me to wait before I burned it down? Is six months long enough?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@35), in a way, you’re right. But ask yourself: if I falsely claimed that you had dynamite in your garage and that, in order to neutralize that threat, I needed to come burn your house down, how long would you want for me to wait before I burned it down? Is six months long enough?

  • Peter Leavitt

    The 16 October 2002 Congressional Authorization for the Iraq War was carefully considered bi-partisan votes. Among the most important of the reasons cited for this war were

    Iraq’s noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.
    Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a “threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region.”
    Iraq’s “brutal repression of its civilian population.”
    Iraq’s “capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people”.
    Iraq’s hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
    Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.
    Iraq’s “continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations,” including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
    The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, including the September 11th, 2001 terrorists and those who aided or harbored them.
    The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
    Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.

    The Iraq War was scarcely a demonic Gadarene affair precipitated by Pres. Bush, a malign mythical assumption continuously indulged in by the liberal left.

  • Peter Leavitt

    The 16 October 2002 Congressional Authorization for the Iraq War was carefully considered bi-partisan votes. Among the most important of the reasons cited for this war were

    Iraq’s noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.
    Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a “threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region.”
    Iraq’s “brutal repression of its civilian population.”
    Iraq’s “capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people”.
    Iraq’s hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
    Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.
    Iraq’s “continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations,” including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
    The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, including the September 11th, 2001 terrorists and those who aided or harbored them.
    The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
    Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.

    The Iraq War was scarcely a demonic Gadarene affair precipitated by Pres. Bush, a malign mythical assumption continuously indulged in by the liberal left.

  • Carl Vehse

    tODD, check your dictionary.

    The word, “incontinent,” does not mean or imply “foolhardy,” especially as Will uses it to describe “government expansion”. (That brings to mind an unsettling image of changing my then-infant children’s diapers filled with their “expansion”.) The word, “ludicrous,” was Will’s description of the bill, not of any demonic swine/Congress in their Gadarene rush.

  • Carl Vehse

    tODD, check your dictionary.

    The word, “incontinent,” does not mean or imply “foolhardy,” especially as Will uses it to describe “government expansion”. (That brings to mind an unsettling image of changing my then-infant children’s diapers filled with their “expansion”.) The word, “ludicrous,” was Will’s description of the bill, not of any demonic swine/Congress in their Gadarene rush.

  • Peter Leavitt

    In the above first sentences “vote” should have been “voters.”

  • Peter Leavitt

    In the above first sentences “vote” should have been “voters.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, good grief, Peter (@38), if you’re going to quote at length from a Wikipedia article, you really should read the whole article, or at least find out if it backs up the claims listed in your partial quote.

    After the invasion, the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), headed by American David Kay, was tasked with searching for WMD. The survey ultimately concluded that Iraqi production of WMD ceased and all major stockpiles were destroyed in 1991 when sanctions were imposed, but that the expertise to restart production once sanctions were lifted was preserved.

    On September 30, 2004, The ISG, under Charles Duelfer, issued a comprehensive report. The report stated that “Iraq’s WMD capability … was essentially destroyed in 1991″ and that Saddam Hussein subsequently focused on ending the sanctions and “preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted”. No evidence was found for continued active production of WMD subsequent to the imposition of sanctions in 1991.

    In asserting a link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, the Bush Administration focused special attention on alleged ties between Hussein and Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who Secretary of State Powell called a “collaborator of Osama bin Laden.”[71] Soon after the start of the war, however, evidence of such ties was discredited by multiple U.S. intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency

    And so on, and so on.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, good grief, Peter (@38), if you’re going to quote at length from a Wikipedia article, you really should read the whole article, or at least find out if it backs up the claims listed in your partial quote.

    After the invasion, the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), headed by American David Kay, was tasked with searching for WMD. The survey ultimately concluded that Iraqi production of WMD ceased and all major stockpiles were destroyed in 1991 when sanctions were imposed, but that the expertise to restart production once sanctions were lifted was preserved.

    On September 30, 2004, The ISG, under Charles Duelfer, issued a comprehensive report. The report stated that “Iraq’s WMD capability … was essentially destroyed in 1991″ and that Saddam Hussein subsequently focused on ending the sanctions and “preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted”. No evidence was found for continued active production of WMD subsequent to the imposition of sanctions in 1991.

    In asserting a link between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda, the Bush Administration focused special attention on alleged ties between Hussein and Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who Secretary of State Powell called a “collaborator of Osama bin Laden.”[71] Soon after the start of the war, however, evidence of such ties was discredited by multiple U.S. intelligence agencies, including the Central Intelligence Agency

    And so on, and so on.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Todd, Duelfer concluded that, while no weapons of mass destruction were found, Saddam Hussein retained the capacity to build nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that he fully intended to implement after sanctions were lifted. I’ve read the full Duelfer report, something you have apparently not done.

    Also, the point is that both the Bush and Clinton administrations, Congress, and most other countries, believed the intelligence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The points of the Congressional authorization for the Iraq War above were carefully considered. This was not a war that Bush took us into precipitously., notwithstanding the slanderous mythology of you and your leftist buddies.

    Pres. Bush bids fair in the long run to have been the liberator of an Iraq that established a significant form of democracy in the heart of the Middle East.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Todd, Duelfer concluded that, while no weapons of mass destruction were found, Saddam Hussein retained the capacity to build nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons that he fully intended to implement after sanctions were lifted. I’ve read the full Duelfer report, something you have apparently not done.

    Also, the point is that both the Bush and Clinton administrations, Congress, and most other countries, believed the intelligence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. The points of the Congressional authorization for the Iraq War above were carefully considered. This was not a war that Bush took us into precipitously., notwithstanding the slanderous mythology of you and your leftist buddies.

    Pres. Bush bids fair in the long run to have been the liberator of an Iraq that established a significant form of democracy in the heart of the Middle East.

  • fws

    “The essence of contemporary liberalism is the illiberal conviction that Americans, in their comprehensive incompetence, need minute supervision by government, which liberals believe exists to spare citizens the torture of thinking and choosing. . .”

    what thinking and choosing do we have in healthcare now? how easy is it to price compare and determine the track record of a doctor or hospital? not very. why? heavy government sponsored monopolies in the form of drug companies, the ama , the hospital industry and insurance companies.

    I would be HAPPY to remove all govt control over medicine that results in monopolistic practice.

    will presents a false choice here. and worse makes a biblical illusion to gloss his falsehood.

  • fws

    “The essence of contemporary liberalism is the illiberal conviction that Americans, in their comprehensive incompetence, need minute supervision by government, which liberals believe exists to spare citizens the torture of thinking and choosing. . .”

    what thinking and choosing do we have in healthcare now? how easy is it to price compare and determine the track record of a doctor or hospital? not very. why? heavy government sponsored monopolies in the form of drug companies, the ama , the hospital industry and insurance companies.

    I would be HAPPY to remove all govt control over medicine that results in monopolistic practice.

    will presents a false choice here. and worse makes a biblical illusion to gloss his falsehood.

  • Daniel Gorman

    Peter Leavitt opines, “The 16 October 2002 Congressional Authorization for the Iraq War was carefully considered bi-partisan votes.”

    No, the vote was rushed through shortly before the congressional elections in order to provide maximum political advantage for Republicans and to apply maximum political pressure on Democrats. Anti-war Republicans were strong-armed, muzzled, and given almost no time to debate. Even in the short time Ron Paul was allotted, he was able to refute all the phony excuses for the War the Bush Administration had invented.

    The few Republicans who bravely opposed their party’s Gaderene War deserve the praise and thanks of the Republican Party (rather than the ridicule and abuse they received) and all Americans. On the other hand, the cowardly Democrats who spinelessly supported an unnecessary, unjust, and unconstitutional war, because they either ignored the raw intelligence data or did not bother to read it, deserve condemnation by their party (instead of the free pass they received) and all American citizens .

    Peter Leavitt opines, “The Iraq War was scarcely a demonic Gadarene affair precipitated by Pres. Bush, a malign mythical assumption continuously indulged in by the liberal left.”

    True conservatives actually agree with the liberal left on that point. However, the liberal left will never admit their own complicity in the War. However, the American people, both left and right, know that many liberals were an integral part of Gadarene rush to War and they are being rightly punished along with Bush Neo-Cons..

  • Daniel Gorman

    Peter Leavitt opines, “The 16 October 2002 Congressional Authorization for the Iraq War was carefully considered bi-partisan votes.”

    No, the vote was rushed through shortly before the congressional elections in order to provide maximum political advantage for Republicans and to apply maximum political pressure on Democrats. Anti-war Republicans were strong-armed, muzzled, and given almost no time to debate. Even in the short time Ron Paul was allotted, he was able to refute all the phony excuses for the War the Bush Administration had invented.

    The few Republicans who bravely opposed their party’s Gaderene War deserve the praise and thanks of the Republican Party (rather than the ridicule and abuse they received) and all Americans. On the other hand, the cowardly Democrats who spinelessly supported an unnecessary, unjust, and unconstitutional war, because they either ignored the raw intelligence data or did not bother to read it, deserve condemnation by their party (instead of the free pass they received) and all American citizens .

    Peter Leavitt opines, “The Iraq War was scarcely a demonic Gadarene affair precipitated by Pres. Bush, a malign mythical assumption continuously indulged in by the liberal left.”

    True conservatives actually agree with the liberal left on that point. However, the liberal left will never admit their own complicity in the War. However, the American people, both left and right, know that many liberals were an integral part of Gadarene rush to War and they are being rightly punished along with Bush Neo-Cons..


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