The man with 400 children

Newsweek tells the story of a sperm donor:

[Kirk] Maxey, 51, happens to be one of the most prolific sperm donors in the country. Between 1980 and 1994, he donated at a Michigan clinic twice a week. He’s looked at the records of his donations, multiplied by the number of individual vials each donation produced, and estimated the success of each vial resulting in a pregnancy. By his own calculations, he concluded that he is the biological father of nearly 400 children, spread across the state and possibly the country.

At the time, there was little screening for disease or genetic issues, so now Mr. Maxey is crusading for better regulation of the industry. He is worried, among other things, that some of his progeny might meet each other and have children of their own, even though they are brother and sister. Recently, two of his offspring–his daughters–traced him down as their real father. Now they get together sometimes. Here they are, going out for ice cream:

Sperm donor & two of his offspring

List the different ways this is wrong.

HT: Kirk Andersen

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    It seems to me that, for a certain influential segment of our society, the only question when considering the morality of a policy or program is, “Does this undermine the traditional family? If it does, we must do it!”

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    It seems to me that, for a certain influential segment of our society, the only question when considering the morality of a policy or program is, “Does this undermine the traditional family? If it does, we must do it!”

  • http://caughtnottaught.blogspot.com ED… (who blogs at Sincere Ignorance and Conscientious Stupidity)

    These things always make me think of the opening of King Lear.

    GLOUCESTER

    His breeding, sir, hath been at my charge: I have
    so often blushed to acknowledge him, that now I am
    brazed to it.

    KENT

    I cannot conceive you.

    GLOUCESTER

    Sir, this young fellow’s mother could: whereupon
    she grew round-wombed, and had, indeed, sir, a son
    for her cradle ere she had a husband for her bed.
    Do you smell a fault?

    KENT

    I cannot wish the fault undone, the issue of it
    being so proper.

  • http://caughtnottaught.blogspot.com ED… (who blogs at Sincere Ignorance and Conscientious Stupidity)

    These things always make me think of the opening of King Lear.

    GLOUCESTER

    His breeding, sir, hath been at my charge: I have
    so often blushed to acknowledge him, that now I am
    brazed to it.

    KENT

    I cannot conceive you.

    GLOUCESTER

    Sir, this young fellow’s mother could: whereupon
    she grew round-wombed, and had, indeed, sir, a son
    for her cradle ere she had a husband for her bed.
    Do you smell a fault?

    KENT

    I cannot wish the fault undone, the issue of it
    being so proper.

  • JackReacher

    > List the different ways this is wrong.

    Well, I can think of 400 right off the bat. ;-)

  • JackReacher

    > List the different ways this is wrong.

    Well, I can think of 400 right off the bat. ;-)

  • http://www.masonsjournal.blogspot.com Mason

    To list the ways this is wrong would take several years. I think I would start my list with a question: “What do the girls in the picture now think of the Dad who lovingly raised them?” Is he still “Dad” in their minds’ or just that guy who gave them stuff when they were growing up?

  • http://www.masonsjournal.blogspot.com Mason

    To list the ways this is wrong would take several years. I think I would start my list with a question: “What do the girls in the picture now think of the Dad who lovingly raised them?” Is he still “Dad” in their minds’ or just that guy who gave them stuff when they were growing up?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    I have to wonder (per Mason’s comment) how many of this man’s children actually grew up with a father, and how many of them on the other hand grew up with just a mom. Those clinics sell to singles, too, after all. So issue #1 on my part is consigning a bunch of kids to fatherlessness and deserting one’s own offspring.

    Other issues; encouraging the use of porn to get the donations, no medical history for the kids born, no concern for an “Appalachian Spring” of half-siblings having kids together…..

    ….now to the man’s credit, he’s working to end some of the abuses, and if he’s successful, it will make it MUCH more difficult for the industry to operate; more or less, it will require a fairly expensive background check for a very limited income.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    I have to wonder (per Mason’s comment) how many of this man’s children actually grew up with a father, and how many of them on the other hand grew up with just a mom. Those clinics sell to singles, too, after all. So issue #1 on my part is consigning a bunch of kids to fatherlessness and deserting one’s own offspring.

    Other issues; encouraging the use of porn to get the donations, no medical history for the kids born, no concern for an “Appalachian Spring” of half-siblings having kids together…..

    ….now to the man’s credit, he’s working to end some of the abuses, and if he’s successful, it will make it MUCH more difficult for the industry to operate; more or less, it will require a fairly expensive background check for a very limited income.

  • MikeD

    And while certainly not topping the list of wrongs, I don’t suppose Mr. Generosity was perusing Golf Digest or contemplating the virtue of the arts in culture while making his… um… donation. Hey, you said count ‘em!

  • MikeD

    And while certainly not topping the list of wrongs, I don’t suppose Mr. Generosity was perusing Golf Digest or contemplating the virtue of the arts in culture while making his… um… donation. Hey, you said count ‘em!

  • Jonathan

    I think if I were one of *his* children, I would just find him, well, just plain creepy–not someone I’d go get ice cream with or watch a ball game, or get advice from.

  • Jonathan

    I think if I were one of *his* children, I would just find him, well, just plain creepy–not someone I’d go get ice cream with or watch a ball game, or get advice from.

  • Wyldeirishman

    List the different ways this is wrong.

    It’s hell deciding who sits where during the holidays.

  • Wyldeirishman

    List the different ways this is wrong.

    It’s hell deciding who sits where during the holidays.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oof. Remember when you were a teenager and you were put off by thinking about how you were conceived? You had nothing on these kids.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oof. Remember when you were a teenager and you were put off by thinking about how you were conceived? You had nothing on these kids.

  • fws

    We have a picture in front of us of three human beings, created by God. Our righteousness would be to love them as God does.

    I looked for traces of where they looked like their biological father. They do. The all look happy. I am glad for that. It beats the alternative.

    I imagine us all sitting in a room together and them getting to hear the comments from the people here in an eye to eye format.

    So no. I think I am going to pass on listing the ways this is wrong. It would not look like love.

  • fws

    We have a picture in front of us of three human beings, created by God. Our righteousness would be to love them as God does.

    I looked for traces of where they looked like their biological father. They do. The all look happy. I am glad for that. It beats the alternative.

    I imagine us all sitting in a room together and them getting to hear the comments from the people here in an eye to eye format.

    So no. I think I am going to pass on listing the ways this is wrong. It would not look like love.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    FWS (@10), you appear to be saying that “to love [someone] as God does” precludes telling them how they are wrong, since that does “not look like love”. I know you don’t believe this, since not only have you pointed out people’s errors to them in other places on this blog, but the Bible makes clear that to love someone includes correcting them.

    None of which is meant to defend, as such, any of the preceding comments, including my own. Some of them doubtless we would not say face-to-face to those pictured above.

    But imagine a photograph of a man and his biological daughter, both of whom look happy. What if that young woman were conceived by rape (something for which she eventually forgave the man)? Would you fail to note that rape is wrong, merely because the people looked happy?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    FWS (@10), you appear to be saying that “to love [someone] as God does” precludes telling them how they are wrong, since that does “not look like love”. I know you don’t believe this, since not only have you pointed out people’s errors to them in other places on this blog, but the Bible makes clear that to love someone includes correcting them.

    None of which is meant to defend, as such, any of the preceding comments, including my own. Some of them doubtless we would not say face-to-face to those pictured above.

    But imagine a photograph of a man and his biological daughter, both of whom look happy. What if that young woman were conceived by rape (something for which she eventually forgave the man)? Would you fail to note that rape is wrong, merely because the people looked happy?

  • J

    Amen to fws @10. I hope the two daughters end up with a different view of Christianity than what they might have found today, had they viewed this blog. There’s nothing like having good, righteous folk, who profess to be saved by grace, publicly shaming your father after he’s made efforts to correct matters. Notable exception: fws @ 10.

    To his enormous credit, this man doesn’t hide from his children, who ultimately are in a much better position than anyone here to assess his actions. Moreover, as far as I can tell, he isn’t advocating that anyone do what he’s done. Rather, he making honorable efforts to deal with the consequences.

    If this story had to be addressed at all, the question should have been, list the things that this man is now doing right, then leave him and his daughters alone.

  • J

    Amen to fws @10. I hope the two daughters end up with a different view of Christianity than what they might have found today, had they viewed this blog. There’s nothing like having good, righteous folk, who profess to be saved by grace, publicly shaming your father after he’s made efforts to correct matters. Notable exception: fws @ 10.

    To his enormous credit, this man doesn’t hide from his children, who ultimately are in a much better position than anyone here to assess his actions. Moreover, as far as I can tell, he isn’t advocating that anyone do what he’s done. Rather, he making honorable efforts to deal with the consequences.

    If this story had to be addressed at all, the question should have been, list the things that this man is now doing right, then leave him and his daughters alone.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Per Frank’s comments, sometimes God calls us to pass judgment. If that were not so, how could the apostles have confronted the murderers of the prophets and even Christ, and how could the church be called (Matthew 18) to expel people from the church?

    He hits on one of the big reasons this deal is wrong; sharing an intimate moment with a magazine doesn’t exactly look like love.

    Wisecrack regarding Mike’s comment suppressed only with extreme difficulty…. :^)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Per Frank’s comments, sometimes God calls us to pass judgment. If that were not so, how could the apostles have confronted the murderers of the prophets and even Christ, and how could the church be called (Matthew 18) to expel people from the church?

    He hits on one of the big reasons this deal is wrong; sharing an intimate moment with a magazine doesn’t exactly look like love.

    Wisecrack regarding Mike’s comment suppressed only with extreme difficulty…. :^)

  • J

    BB@13.

    God did not call you to pass judgment today, either on this man or on what he has done.

  • J

    BB@13.

    God did not call you to pass judgment today, either on this man or on what he has done.

  • visitor

    “Recently, two of his offspring–his daughters–traced him down as their real father.”
    We should be careful with the use of the term “real father.” He is their “biological father.”

  • visitor

    “Recently, two of his offspring–his daughters–traced him down as their real father.”
    We should be careful with the use of the term “real father.” He is their “biological father.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    J (@12), while Maxey has made attempts to correct some of the negative consequences of sperm donation (e.g. a lack of knowledge of their genetic inheritance, as well as the unintentional possibility of siblings procreating in the future), he hasn’t (that I’ve read) dealt with the more fundamental issues of it at all.

    I mean, has it really come to the point where Christians can no longer point out that it’s wrong for men to masturbate while looking at pornography?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    J (@12), while Maxey has made attempts to correct some of the negative consequences of sperm donation (e.g. a lack of knowledge of their genetic inheritance, as well as the unintentional possibility of siblings procreating in the future), he hasn’t (that I’ve read) dealt with the more fundamental issues of it at all.

    I mean, has it really come to the point where Christians can no longer point out that it’s wrong for men to masturbate while looking at pornography?

  • J

    tODD @15, does such a thing really need to be pointed out? And are you as confident as @5 that you know the private circumstances of this man’s actions?

    My objection was not to a reasoned discussion on the morality or social consequences of such donations, but to the childish and pious mockery of this man and his daughters. Read these good Christian comments again with his daughters in mind.

  • J

    tODD @15, does such a thing really need to be pointed out? And are you as confident as @5 that you know the private circumstances of this man’s actions?

    My objection was not to a reasoned discussion on the morality or social consequences of such donations, but to the childish and pious mockery of this man and his daughters. Read these good Christian comments again with his daughters in mind.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    Reminds me of a song.

  • http://mesamike.org Mike Westfall

    Reminds me of a song.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    J (@17), you asked, “does such a thing really need to be pointed out?” Well, apparently — certainly in the world at large, and possibly here as well.

    “And are you as confident as @5 that you know the private circumstances of this man’s actions?” Not sure exactly what you’re referring to, but here’s a quote from the article that I was basing my comments on: “[Maxey] merely signed a waiver of anonymity, locked himself in a room with a cup and a sexy magazine, and didn’t consider the emotional or genetic consequences for another 30 years.”

    I’m not sure if your problem is with all the foregoing comments or what, so you’ll have to be explicit about what you find objectionable in this thread.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    J (@17), you asked, “does such a thing really need to be pointed out?” Well, apparently — certainly in the world at large, and possibly here as well.

    “And are you as confident as @5 that you know the private circumstances of this man’s actions?” Not sure exactly what you’re referring to, but here’s a quote from the article that I was basing my comments on: “[Maxey] merely signed a waiver of anonymity, locked himself in a room with a cup and a sexy magazine, and didn’t consider the emotional or genetic consequences for another 30 years.”

    I’m not sure if your problem is with all the foregoing comments or what, so you’ll have to be explicit about what you find objectionable in this thread.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I kinda agree with Fws and J here on this one today. I mean, this one’s like shooting fish in a barrel! Its an interesting story, hence the Newsweek article – but its so easily an example of the fallenness of man and the family and human relationships, etc… I know I don’t like it when folks reduce Christianity to moralism – so I agree with Fws and J: Leave these folks alone unless you are going to remind them that even for them, God has made them special and His plan centered in Christ is also for them – exactly the same as for you and me – whichever way God gave us life – and no matter what foolish things we’ve done in our past.

    May they find the true Light and Life of Christ. And who knows – maybe that’s why the man is trying to make things better in the future? Maybe what we have here is a picture of a true brother and true sisters in Christ. Who here knows? I don’t. But I hope so.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I kinda agree with Fws and J here on this one today. I mean, this one’s like shooting fish in a barrel! Its an interesting story, hence the Newsweek article – but its so easily an example of the fallenness of man and the family and human relationships, etc… I know I don’t like it when folks reduce Christianity to moralism – so I agree with Fws and J: Leave these folks alone unless you are going to remind them that even for them, God has made them special and His plan centered in Christ is also for them – exactly the same as for you and me – whichever way God gave us life – and no matter what foolish things we’ve done in our past.

    May they find the true Light and Life of Christ. And who knows – maybe that’s why the man is trying to make things better in the future? Maybe what we have here is a picture of a true brother and true sisters in Christ. Who here knows? I don’t. But I hope so.

  • J

    Mr Lindemood @20.
    Well put. Thank you for the words of grace.

  • J

    Mr Lindemood @20.
    Well put. Thank you for the words of grace.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    J, as long as the Gospel is Christ living and dying to save us from our sins, the exposing of sin has a place in the work of every believer. Sorry, your comments are simply contrary to Scripture.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    J, as long as the Gospel is Christ living and dying to save us from our sins, the exposing of sin has a place in the work of every believer. Sorry, your comments are simply contrary to Scripture.

  • DonS

    I understand, I think, what J and others, such as Bryan, are trying to say. What’s done is done, in the case of Mr. Maxey and his 400 kids, and there is certainly no point in going back and condemning him for his past actions. Kudos to him for his efforts to establish a relationship, of sorts, with some of the kids he fathered, and for being concerned about some of the consequences of fathering so many kids, many of them anonymously, in such a manner. It seems as if he is trying to take responsibility for his former actions, both by trying to be a dad when he can and by urging attention to some of the issues that arise when parenthood occurs in such an unorthodox way, medical and otherwise.

    However, this is not to say that a discussion like that in this thread should not occur, or that it should necessarily be considered a judgment of Mr. Maxey. Obviously, scripture does not directly address the issues related to fertility treatments, and intelligent discussion among believers concerning some of the potential pitfalls, ethical issues, and areas that might be regarded as sinful behavior in this complicated and thorny field can be enlightening and helpful.

  • DonS

    I understand, I think, what J and others, such as Bryan, are trying to say. What’s done is done, in the case of Mr. Maxey and his 400 kids, and there is certainly no point in going back and condemning him for his past actions. Kudos to him for his efforts to establish a relationship, of sorts, with some of the kids he fathered, and for being concerned about some of the consequences of fathering so many kids, many of them anonymously, in such a manner. It seems as if he is trying to take responsibility for his former actions, both by trying to be a dad when he can and by urging attention to some of the issues that arise when parenthood occurs in such an unorthodox way, medical and otherwise.

    However, this is not to say that a discussion like that in this thread should not occur, or that it should necessarily be considered a judgment of Mr. Maxey. Obviously, scripture does not directly address the issues related to fertility treatments, and intelligent discussion among believers concerning some of the potential pitfalls, ethical issues, and areas that might be regarded as sinful behavior in this complicated and thorny field can be enlightening and helpful.

  • J

    BB@22
    If exposing sin is every believer’s job, let’s start with yours. Be specific. All the details. Man up, bub.

  • J

    BB@22
    If exposing sin is every believer’s job, let’s start with yours. Be specific. All the details. Man up, bub.

  • Joe

    I think keeping this in the perspective established by Veith is how we walk the line that Don pointed out:

    “List the different ways this is wrong.”

    We were not asked to list this man’s sins, we were asked to discuss the wrongness of this activity. Just because this man brought attention to the topic by discussing his own behavior does not mean that the subject (and even using his example) is off the table for discussion. If it was, we would have to wait for someone with a very active imagination to toss out a comparable hypothetical.

  • Joe

    I think keeping this in the perspective established by Veith is how we walk the line that Don pointed out:

    “List the different ways this is wrong.”

    We were not asked to list this man’s sins, we were asked to discuss the wrongness of this activity. Just because this man brought attention to the topic by discussing his own behavior does not mean that the subject (and even using his example) is off the table for discussion. If it was, we would have to wait for someone with a very active imagination to toss out a comparable hypothetical.

  • Wyldeirishman

    Are “words of grace” the only thing needed here? What about words of propriety, sincerity, or fidelity?

    While I can no more claim 100% adherence to any of the above, the point that appears to be repeatedly and deliberately (!) missed is simply this:

    Rendering a right judgment is NOT the same thing as being merely “judgmental.”

    If we cannot have a conversation in which the acknowledgment of a sundering of propriety has taken place while simultaneously continuing to extend the love of God to all people, then we have no business interacting with the rest of the world, and ought to be most urgently engaged in setting up our own free-for-all-styled commune.

    There is no need to “man up,” as J has so eloquently put it, because even the most trivial of indiscretions, apart from Christ’s redeeming work, has damned us all. Deal with your OWN little black book, good sir, and I will deal with mine. Having a sin exposed is no trivial thing; neither is having that sin bought and paid for.

  • Wyldeirishman

    Are “words of grace” the only thing needed here? What about words of propriety, sincerity, or fidelity?

    While I can no more claim 100% adherence to any of the above, the point that appears to be repeatedly and deliberately (!) missed is simply this:

    Rendering a right judgment is NOT the same thing as being merely “judgmental.”

    If we cannot have a conversation in which the acknowledgment of a sundering of propriety has taken place while simultaneously continuing to extend the love of God to all people, then we have no business interacting with the rest of the world, and ought to be most urgently engaged in setting up our own free-for-all-styled commune.

    There is no need to “man up,” as J has so eloquently put it, because even the most trivial of indiscretions, apart from Christ’s redeeming work, has damned us all. Deal with your OWN little black book, good sir, and I will deal with mine. Having a sin exposed is no trivial thing; neither is having that sin bought and paid for.

  • MarketGarden

    Whatever he is, he is certainly NOT their “real” father. He is their biological father. Squirting into a cup and walking away does not make a real father.

  • MarketGarden

    Whatever he is, he is certainly NOT their “real” father. He is their biological father. Squirting into a cup and walking away does not make a real father.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    J, if you want to understand my sin, you can visit my blog. I discuss it from time to time.

    However, I would have to suggest that your time might be better spent in the book of Acts, which clearly demonstrates that the early church did not hesitate to rebuke open, unrepentant sin, like those involved in running any “seed bank.”

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    J, if you want to understand my sin, you can visit my blog. I discuss it from time to time.

    However, I would have to suggest that your time might be better spent in the book of Acts, which clearly demonstrates that the early church did not hesitate to rebuke open, unrepentant sin, like those involved in running any “seed bank.”

  • http://rosacola.blogspot.com Rocco

    “Judge not lest ye be judged.”

    How did Jesus respond to the sinners of his day?

  • http://rosacola.blogspot.com Rocco

    “Judge not lest ye be judged.”

    How did Jesus respond to the sinners of his day?

  • fws

    Luther:

    “..It is [God´s Will that each man attends to] his own affairs…not interfering with the business, property or person of another. This is in short …the whole substance of this piety on earth.”

    “..every one prefers hearing evil to hearing good of his neighbor;…we ourselves are so bad…yet we cannot bear that the best is spoken about others.

    Therefore…no one is allowed publicly to judge and reprove his neighbor, although he may see him sin, unless he have a command to judge and to reprove…. there is a difference between … judging sin and knowing sin. You may … know …but you are not to judge. …if you know it… turn your ears into a grave and cover it, until you are appointed to be judge and to punish by virtue of your office.

    Thus you see that it is summarily forbidden to speak any evil of our neighbor, however, the civil government, preachers, father and mother excepted, on the understanding that this commandment does not allow evil to go unpunished.

    … the sum …of this commandment, ..no one do any injury with the tongue to his neighbor,…nor speak evil of him, no matter whether it be true or false…that every one employ his tongue … to cover up his neighbor’s sins and infirmities, excuse them, palliate and garnish them with his own reputation.The chief reason for this is… Matt. 7:12: Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.

    Even nature teaches [that]..the most infirm members, of which we are ashamed, we cover with all diligence. Thus also…we adorn whatever blemishes and infirmities we find in our neighbor…promote his honor …prevent whatever may be discreditable to him. …always to explain advantageously and put the best construction upon all he may hear of his neighbor …or at any rate to condone it over and against …poisonous tongues.

    …comprehended … in this 8th commandment are a multitude of good works which please God most highly, for there is nothing on or in entire man which can do both greater and more extensive good or harm in spiritual and in temporal matters than the tongue, though it is the least and feeblest member.”

  • fws

    Luther:

    “..It is [God´s Will that each man attends to] his own affairs…not interfering with the business, property or person of another. This is in short …the whole substance of this piety on earth.”

    “..every one prefers hearing evil to hearing good of his neighbor;…we ourselves are so bad…yet we cannot bear that the best is spoken about others.

    Therefore…no one is allowed publicly to judge and reprove his neighbor, although he may see him sin, unless he have a command to judge and to reprove…. there is a difference between … judging sin and knowing sin. You may … know …but you are not to judge. …if you know it… turn your ears into a grave and cover it, until you are appointed to be judge and to punish by virtue of your office.

    Thus you see that it is summarily forbidden to speak any evil of our neighbor, however, the civil government, preachers, father and mother excepted, on the understanding that this commandment does not allow evil to go unpunished.

    … the sum …of this commandment, ..no one do any injury with the tongue to his neighbor,…nor speak evil of him, no matter whether it be true or false…that every one employ his tongue … to cover up his neighbor’s sins and infirmities, excuse them, palliate and garnish them with his own reputation.The chief reason for this is… Matt. 7:12: Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.

    Even nature teaches [that]..the most infirm members, of which we are ashamed, we cover with all diligence. Thus also…we adorn whatever blemishes and infirmities we find in our neighbor…promote his honor …prevent whatever may be discreditable to him. …always to explain advantageously and put the best construction upon all he may hear of his neighbor …or at any rate to condone it over and against …poisonous tongues.

    …comprehended … in this 8th commandment are a multitude of good works which please God most highly, for there is nothing on or in entire man which can do both greater and more extensive good or harm in spiritual and in temporal matters than the tongue, though it is the least and feeblest member.”

  • fws

    #28 Bubba

    Judges, parents and pastors have been appointed by God to judge or reprove.

    Would you care to show us your license making this YOUR business?

  • fws

    #28 Bubba

    Judges, parents and pastors have been appointed by God to judge or reprove.

    Would you care to show us your license making this YOUR business?

  • fws

    Comment #26 Wyldeirishman said:
    Are “words of grace” the only thing needed here? What about words of propriety, sincerity, or fidelity?”

    The question is not whether these things are needed Wylde. Along with some criticism and judgement and forgiveness and corrective action perhaps. The question is whether or not this is any of OUR business in this case to administer these “good”.

    I cannot see that God has called me to this. Show me the passage in scripture that commands me to publicly reprove sin in my vocation as a christian layman. show.me.

    When something like this is made public by the press, I am suggesting the proper christian reaction would be to cringe as though someone we love is being put on display in their error, and pray for the publicity to pass quickly.

    We assume that anything in people magazine is righteous public domain because it is now public knowledge or the people mentioned are public figures.. politicos, sports figures. I am saying this assumption is badly flawed. It is none.of.our.business.

  • fws

    Comment #26 Wyldeirishman said:
    Are “words of grace” the only thing needed here? What about words of propriety, sincerity, or fidelity?”

    The question is not whether these things are needed Wylde. Along with some criticism and judgement and forgiveness and corrective action perhaps. The question is whether or not this is any of OUR business in this case to administer these “good”.

    I cannot see that God has called me to this. Show me the passage in scripture that commands me to publicly reprove sin in my vocation as a christian layman. show.me.

    When something like this is made public by the press, I am suggesting the proper christian reaction would be to cringe as though someone we love is being put on display in their error, and pray for the publicity to pass quickly.

    We assume that anything in people magazine is righteous public domain because it is now public knowledge or the people mentioned are public figures.. politicos, sports figures. I am saying this assumption is badly flawed. It is none.of.our.business.

  • fws

    Comment #27 MarketGarden said:
    Whatever he is, he is certainly NOT their “real” father. He is their biological father. Squirting into a cup and walking away does not make a real father.

    You would actually make such a crass comment directly to these two lovely young women in the picture? what if they have googled and found your comment?

    wow.

    My vote is for us all to mind our own business here and wish all three the very best that IS God´s Will for them.

  • fws

    Comment #27 MarketGarden said:
    Whatever he is, he is certainly NOT their “real” father. He is their biological father. Squirting into a cup and walking away does not make a real father.

    You would actually make such a crass comment directly to these two lovely young women in the picture? what if they have googled and found your comment?

    wow.

    My vote is for us all to mind our own business here and wish all three the very best that IS God´s Will for them.

  • J

    fws @32
    Let’s face it – to many, Christ’s command to remove the beam in one’s eye, before attempting to take out the splinter in another’s, is so much hogwash. These folks are born to ‘rebuke’ everyone but themselves.

  • J

    fws @32
    Let’s face it – to many, Christ’s command to remove the beam in one’s eye, before attempting to take out the splinter in another’s, is so much hogwash. These folks are born to ‘rebuke’ everyone but themselves.

  • http://donorchild.blogspot.com/ Stephanie

    So I’m going to throw an entirely new perspective into this discussion – in May 2009, my mother told me that my dad, whom I love with all of my heart, is not my biological father. Talk about devestating. I couldn’t believe it. I just turned 32, have 5 children of my own, and I felt as though the rug of my life was pulled out from under me.

    My parents used a sperm donor in the mid-70s, which means that I was conceived before sperm banks took just anyone as a ‘donor’. My biological father was a med student at the university that my mother’s doctor was affiliated with.

    When the question is asked, “in what ways is this wrong?” I can tell you that I’ve spent more than a little time thinking about this topic.

    Let’s start with the banks: their product produces a human being. Profit is made from selling sperm (or eggs) so someone is making money from the desperation of those who want a child. How wrong is that?

    Yes, the manner in which the ‘donation’ was obtained isn’t the holy way to produce a child, but I feel like this issue is just the tip of the iceburg. I’m guessing that most donors, like my father, didn’t think about the consequenses of what they were doing, and they certainly weren’t coaxed into thinking about it, either. They were, in essence, giving away the family jewels. Children don’t belong to one person – they belong to families. I will never know my bio-father, nor my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.

    There would be no supply if there were no demand. Since this situation isn’t just limited to one person, the wrongs don’t belong to just one person. The couple (whether hetero or homo) or the single people who use this method of creating a child generally have their own list of wrongs. I can’t imagine the desperation that drives an infertile couple to go this route, but it happens. My parents were married 14 years before I was conceived. They tried adopting, but it fell through. My parents were devestated. After trying every other route available to them, artificial insemination was the last option.

    The fact is, though my dad made the decision along with my mother to use a donor, they still went outside of their marriage. This strikes me as sinful, though not on the level as adultry. God didn’t create loopholes when he created marriage. Obviously God did not “mean” for marriage partners to go somewhere else for the sperm or eggs they need to create a child, but for what ever reason, He sometimes blesses them with a child despite their going outside the marriage covenant.

    Then there is the angle of the lies that are told to cover up the fact that said child is not the husband’s biological child. Unless the situation is just completely obvious (single woman, gays, and lesbians)most children and extended families are NEVER TOLD that a sperm (or egg) donor was used. No one in my family knows that I am not my dad’s biological daughter. Now I have to keep mum about it, too.

    One could argue that we shouldn’t pass judgment, that we don’t know the details, we aren’t acting in Christian love, etc. Frankly, I think that the truth must be spoke, but it must be done in love. I had to have a difficult conversation with my mother that involved talking about sin. You cannot sweep it under the rug. But the Christian response is forgiveness. There was immediate forgiveness from me to my parents and to my biological father because Christ has forgiven me.

    Believe it or not, this isn’t an exhaustive list – there are so many nooks and crannies in this situation. There are so many hurting people out there because of this exact situation. Prayer is definitely needed. You can read my blog if you are interested: http://donorchild.blogspot.com/

    The up side is that this man is taking responsiblity for what he has done. That’s huge!

  • http://donorchild.blogspot.com/ Stephanie

    So I’m going to throw an entirely new perspective into this discussion – in May 2009, my mother told me that my dad, whom I love with all of my heart, is not my biological father. Talk about devestating. I couldn’t believe it. I just turned 32, have 5 children of my own, and I felt as though the rug of my life was pulled out from under me.

    My parents used a sperm donor in the mid-70s, which means that I was conceived before sperm banks took just anyone as a ‘donor’. My biological father was a med student at the university that my mother’s doctor was affiliated with.

    When the question is asked, “in what ways is this wrong?” I can tell you that I’ve spent more than a little time thinking about this topic.

    Let’s start with the banks: their product produces a human being. Profit is made from selling sperm (or eggs) so someone is making money from the desperation of those who want a child. How wrong is that?

    Yes, the manner in which the ‘donation’ was obtained isn’t the holy way to produce a child, but I feel like this issue is just the tip of the iceburg. I’m guessing that most donors, like my father, didn’t think about the consequenses of what they were doing, and they certainly weren’t coaxed into thinking about it, either. They were, in essence, giving away the family jewels. Children don’t belong to one person – they belong to families. I will never know my bio-father, nor my grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.

    There would be no supply if there were no demand. Since this situation isn’t just limited to one person, the wrongs don’t belong to just one person. The couple (whether hetero or homo) or the single people who use this method of creating a child generally have their own list of wrongs. I can’t imagine the desperation that drives an infertile couple to go this route, but it happens. My parents were married 14 years before I was conceived. They tried adopting, but it fell through. My parents were devestated. After trying every other route available to them, artificial insemination was the last option.

    The fact is, though my dad made the decision along with my mother to use a donor, they still went outside of their marriage. This strikes me as sinful, though not on the level as adultry. God didn’t create loopholes when he created marriage. Obviously God did not “mean” for marriage partners to go somewhere else for the sperm or eggs they need to create a child, but for what ever reason, He sometimes blesses them with a child despite their going outside the marriage covenant.

    Then there is the angle of the lies that are told to cover up the fact that said child is not the husband’s biological child. Unless the situation is just completely obvious (single woman, gays, and lesbians)most children and extended families are NEVER TOLD that a sperm (or egg) donor was used. No one in my family knows that I am not my dad’s biological daughter. Now I have to keep mum about it, too.

    One could argue that we shouldn’t pass judgment, that we don’t know the details, we aren’t acting in Christian love, etc. Frankly, I think that the truth must be spoke, but it must be done in love. I had to have a difficult conversation with my mother that involved talking about sin. You cannot sweep it under the rug. But the Christian response is forgiveness. There was immediate forgiveness from me to my parents and to my biological father because Christ has forgiven me.

    Believe it or not, this isn’t an exhaustive list – there are so many nooks and crannies in this situation. There are so many hurting people out there because of this exact situation. Prayer is definitely needed. You can read my blog if you are interested: http://donorchild.blogspot.com/

    The up side is that this man is taking responsiblity for what he has done. That’s huge!

  • J

    Stephanie, thank God for you. Your blog is thoughtful and rich in content.
    You may want to look into companies that do DNA tests for people tracing their genealogy. Family DNA is one such. I did that, and found out that my father’s family originated not in England, as I had thought, but in Africa. I’m as white as a sheet, yet descended from an African tribe in the southern part of that continent. My father was shocked to find this out, but it’s undeniable. Admittedly, it’s easier genetically for a male to trace his father’s line than a female, but your DNA can be compared to others’ and perhaps you may find a relative, one who is unquestionably biologically connected to you.

  • J

    Stephanie, thank God for you. Your blog is thoughtful and rich in content.
    You may want to look into companies that do DNA tests for people tracing their genealogy. Family DNA is one such. I did that, and found out that my father’s family originated not in England, as I had thought, but in Africa. I’m as white as a sheet, yet descended from an African tribe in the southern part of that continent. My father was shocked to find this out, but it’s undeniable. Admittedly, it’s easier genetically for a male to trace his father’s line than a female, but your DNA can be compared to others’ and perhaps you may find a relative, one who is unquestionably biologically connected to you.

  • http://donorchild.blogspot.com/ Stephanie

    J, I laughed reading your last comment about being white as a sheet yet being from Africa. I’ve been asked all of my life “what are you?” and my answer was always, “I’m just a white girl!” but now I don’t know how to answer that!

    I’ve looked into DNA testing but because I’m a woman, I don’t think there’s anything to be done right now. I could do a sibling test, but I have no possibilities for sibs right now, so that’s out. If I am able to identify possibilities of who my bio father is, I can do that testing. Hopefully in the near future, I will have learn of some possibilities.

  • http://donorchild.blogspot.com/ Stephanie

    J, I laughed reading your last comment about being white as a sheet yet being from Africa. I’ve been asked all of my life “what are you?” and my answer was always, “I’m just a white girl!” but now I don’t know how to answer that!

    I’ve looked into DNA testing but because I’m a woman, I don’t think there’s anything to be done right now. I could do a sibling test, but I have no possibilities for sibs right now, so that’s out. If I am able to identify possibilities of who my bio father is, I can do that testing. Hopefully in the near future, I will have learn of some possibilities.

  • fws

    Comment #34 J said:
    fws @32
    Let’s face it – to many, Christ’s command to remove the beam in one’s eye, before attempting to take out the splinter in another’s, is so much hogwash. These folks are born to ‘rebuke’ everyone but themselves.

    Why… um… J… that sounds just like… um .. me :8

  • fws

    Comment #34 J said:
    fws @32
    Let’s face it – to many, Christ’s command to remove the beam in one’s eye, before attempting to take out the splinter in another’s, is so much hogwash. These folks are born to ‘rebuke’ everyone but themselves.

    Why… um… J… that sounds just like… um .. me :8

  • fws

    #35 Stephanie:

    “One could argue that we shouldn’t pass judgment, that we don’t know the details, we aren’t acting in Christian love, etc. Frankly, I think that the truth must be spoke, but it must be done in love.”

    It is great to debate the ethical issues in abstract about these things. I think that is what our host was hoping for.

    Even then, I would want to debate things in a way that anyone directly affected by that debate, would feel love was being done towards them.

    My objection, 8th commandment, was that we were talking about the lives of 3 people as we got to stare at their photo. we just dont know about them and their lives and even if we did….

  • fws

    #35 Stephanie:

    “One could argue that we shouldn’t pass judgment, that we don’t know the details, we aren’t acting in Christian love, etc. Frankly, I think that the truth must be spoke, but it must be done in love.”

    It is great to debate the ethical issues in abstract about these things. I think that is what our host was hoping for.

    Even then, I would want to debate things in a way that anyone directly affected by that debate, would feel love was being done towards them.

    My objection, 8th commandment, was that we were talking about the lives of 3 people as we got to stare at their photo. we just dont know about them and their lives and even if we did….

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  • Bob Thompson

    There’s nothing wrong with sperm or egg donation. it’s just the Idea of the children seeking out the parent after a procedure that was, for the donor, not much more than a blood donation. I thought donations of this type were supposed to be confidential. I’m waiting for the formation of the “I’m the kid of Kirk” fan club.

  • Bob Thompson

    There’s nothing wrong with sperm or egg donation. it’s just the Idea of the children seeking out the parent after a procedure that was, for the donor, not much more than a blood donation. I thought donations of this type were supposed to be confidential. I’m waiting for the formation of the “I’m the kid of Kirk” fan club.


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