Mr. Greene goes to Washington?

Democrats always present themselves as champions of the poor, the disadvantaged, minorities, the little guy.  But they sure don’t like it when a poor, disadvantaged African-American guy with no political connections wins a Democratic election.   This piece about Alvin Greene, who won the Democratic primary for the Senate race, just oozes condescension and classism:

Alvin M. Greene never gave a speech during his campaign to become this state’s Democratic nominee for Senate. He didn’t start a Web site or hire consultants or plant lawn signs. There’s only $114 in his campaign bank account, he says, and the only check he ever wrote from it was to cover his filing fee.

Indeed, in a three-hour interview, the unemployed military veteran could not name a single specific thing he’d done to campaign. Yet more than 100,000 South Carolinians voted for him on Tuesday, handing him nearly 60 percent of the vote and a resounding victory over Vic Rawl, a former judge who has served four terms in the state legislature.

“I’m the Democratic Party nominee,” Greene says in the interview at his father’s home on a lonely stretch of rural highway in central South Carolina. “The people have spoken. The people of South Carolina have spoken. The people of South Carolina have spoken. We have to be pro-South Carolina. The people of South Carolina have spoken. We have to be pro-South Carolina.”

Things have gotten even stranger since Greene’s win. First, the Associated Press reported that he faces felony obscenity charges for allegedly showing pornography to a University of South Carolina student last November. Greene says he’s not guilty. Then the state’s Democratic Party chairman called on him to withdraw from the general election. House Majority Whip James E. Clyburn (D-S.C.) — who has questioned whether Republicans may have planted Greene in the race — is calling for federal and state investigations. A spokesman for Republican Sen. Jim DeMint (S.C.) called that notion “ridiculous,” and Greene dismisses suggestions that he is anyone’s pawn.

via In South Carolina, Greene is mystery man despite winning Democratic Senate nod.

Democrats are so embarrassed with Mr. Greene winning their election that they have succumbed to conspiracy theories.  Republicans put him up to it!  Republicans crossed over to vote in the primary!  Somebody paid his filing fee!

First, the South Carolina Republican primary was all taken up with the big, heated governor’s race with tea-party favorite Nikki Haley.  Republicans were all trying to either defeat her or get her elected.   They wouldn’t vote Democratic out of spite.  Second, however this guy got into the race and paid his filing fee, enough people had to vote for him.   Why shouldn’t he get that relatively low number of votes in a mostly Republican state?

Which raises a bigger issue.  In this day of bipartisan revulsion against incumbents and professional politicians, why shouldn’t an average American without political experience serve as a representative of the people?  In the ancient Athenian democracy, certain offices were filled by casting lots so as to ensure that an ordinary Athenian–not some aristocrat or demagogue–would hold the office.   If we are going to have a democratic republic, why shouldn’t the Mr. Greenes of the world run for office and why shouldn’t the other Mr. Greenes of the world vote for him?  Or is that kind of democracy not a good idea?

I agree that this particular citizen doesn’t strike me as making a good Senator, but do you think a person really needs to be a lawyer or rich guy to serve in elected office?  Some, of course, such as mayor or governor or president require administrative ability, but senators and congressmen don’t have to run anything, just represent their constituents.  Or is it good to have more creative lawmakers?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Steven Peterson

    I’d prefer a lot less “creativity” from my legislators. Too often that creativity leads to “laws for thee, but not for me,” new ways to tax and ever newer ways to (over)spend, often to the benefit of other politically well-connected creative types.

  • Steven Peterson

    I’d prefer a lot less “creativity” from my legislators. Too often that creativity leads to “laws for thee, but not for me,” new ways to tax and ever newer ways to (over)spend, often to the benefit of other politically well-connected creative types.

  • Carl Vehse

    Well, the Democratic political leaders in the state shouldn’t discriminate against Greene because of the charge of showing pornography to a girl, since it’s not as if he did anything serious like he got the girl into his car, drove off a bridge, swam away, let the girl drown inside while he sobered up before contacting the police the next morning wearing a phony neckbrace, and paid off the girl’s parents to keep quiet.

    In such a hypothetical case I could well understand the murderer’s fellow political party leaders and the voters demanding his immediate resignation as well as his trial and imprisonment, and never voting for such a person again.

  • Carl Vehse

    Well, the Democratic political leaders in the state shouldn’t discriminate against Greene because of the charge of showing pornography to a girl, since it’s not as if he did anything serious like he got the girl into his car, drove off a bridge, swam away, let the girl drown inside while he sobered up before contacting the police the next morning wearing a phony neckbrace, and paid off the girl’s parents to keep quiet.

    In such a hypothetical case I could well understand the murderer’s fellow political party leaders and the voters demanding his immediate resignation as well as his trial and imprisonment, and never voting for such a person again.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Apart from the New England towns that retain town meetings, America is a republic that deserves representatives from the best of the people. Think of the men who wrote the Constitution.

    However, given the reality of the many Democratic numbnuts, this fellow Greene might not be such a bad representative. This reminds one of Bill Buckley’s gibe that he would prefer to be ruled by the first two-hundred names in the Boston phone book than by the Harvard faculty.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Apart from the New England towns that retain town meetings, America is a republic that deserves representatives from the best of the people. Think of the men who wrote the Constitution.

    However, given the reality of the many Democratic numbnuts, this fellow Greene might not be such a bad representative. This reminds one of Bill Buckley’s gibe that he would prefer to be ruled by the first two-hundred names in the Boston phone book than by the Harvard faculty.

  • Orianna Laun

    If the guy can do it, good. Maybe we need fewer lawyers and such in government and need more “Joe the Plumbers”.
    Having just read “Gulliver’s Travels” (okay, that portion of my previous education was lacking) made me realize that our system today isn’t much better than that of Swift’s time. A few more humans in congress and a few less Yahoos would be a boon. :)

  • Orianna Laun

    If the guy can do it, good. Maybe we need fewer lawyers and such in government and need more “Joe the Plumbers”.
    Having just read “Gulliver’s Travels” (okay, that portion of my previous education was lacking) made me realize that our system today isn’t much better than that of Swift’s time. A few more humans in congress and a few less Yahoos would be a boon. :)

  • Carl Vehse

    As Ann Coulter points out this week in her column, Alvin Green: The Most Qualified Democrat I’ve Ever Seen”, a similar incident occurred in the 1998 GOP Senate primary when Vermont liberals ran Fred Tuttle (1919-2003) against a millionaire lawyer who outspent Tuttle by orders of magnitude. Fred won the Republican primary and the press had only kind words to say about him. In running against Sen. Leahy, Tuttle endorsed Leahy, although Fred ended up getting 22 percent of the vote.

  • Carl Vehse

    As Ann Coulter points out this week in her column, Alvin Green: The Most Qualified Democrat I’ve Ever Seen”, a similar incident occurred in the 1998 GOP Senate primary when Vermont liberals ran Fred Tuttle (1919-2003) against a millionaire lawyer who outspent Tuttle by orders of magnitude. Fred won the Republican primary and the press had only kind words to say about him. In running against Sen. Leahy, Tuttle endorsed Leahy, although Fred ended up getting 22 percent of the vote.

  • CRB

    I can’t wait for Greene to be interviewed by Jon Steward.
    Then, we’ll get the REAL scoop on what it’s all about! : )

  • CRB

    I can’t wait for Greene to be interviewed by Jon Steward.
    Then, we’ll get the REAL scoop on what it’s all about! : )

  • CRB

    Oops! Jon Stewart

  • CRB

    Oops! Jon Stewart

  • NavyMom

    I don’t know. This whole situation with Mr. Greene is highly suspicious. Have you seen him in any interviews? It’s downright embarassing and awkward to watch. Apparently, he is indeed a college graduate and served in the armed forces for over a decade, but he doesn’t come across as being “all there”. I hate to say it, but he reminds me of Chauncey Gardner from ‘Being There’.

  • NavyMom

    I don’t know. This whole situation with Mr. Greene is highly suspicious. Have you seen him in any interviews? It’s downright embarassing and awkward to watch. Apparently, he is indeed a college graduate and served in the armed forces for over a decade, but he doesn’t come across as being “all there”. I hate to say it, but he reminds me of Chauncey Gardner from ‘Being There’.

  • C. Randal

    Just a point of clarification. We don’t have a democractic republic, but the form of government captured by the constitution is a Constitutional Republic. The term “rebpulic” itself implies some sort of voting/democracy but, as the supreme law of the land is the constitution, we are not by definition a “democratic republic” (popular belief to the contrary). We’ve of course since journeyed away from a republican form of government more towards a “democracy” (whether or not that is positive or negative development is another debate). The Electoral College, having Senators elected by State Legislators, etc. are not principles of a democracy.

  • C. Randal

    Just a point of clarification. We don’t have a democractic republic, but the form of government captured by the constitution is a Constitutional Republic. The term “rebpulic” itself implies some sort of voting/democracy but, as the supreme law of the land is the constitution, we are not by definition a “democratic republic” (popular belief to the contrary). We’ve of course since journeyed away from a republican form of government more towards a “democracy” (whether or not that is positive or negative development is another debate). The Electoral College, having Senators elected by State Legislators, etc. are not principles of a democracy.

  • Carl Vehse

    Doug Powers had some friendly advice for Alvin Greene in his column, coincidentally entitled, “Friendly Advice for Alvin Greene“:

    Don’t change a thing. By saying virtually nothing, you’ve got the media more frustrated than the time Chris Matthews ran out of Puffs Plus during Obama’s inauguration speech, and the more frustrated they get, the more free press you get.

    Second piece of advice: The next time a pasty talking head from a lily white network asks you how you got $10,000, get right in his or her face, and as loudly and as uncharacteristically for you as possible, yell, “Why? If a black man has some money it means he stole it?”

    Maybe Alvin’s just waiting for the White House to call and make him an offer to drop out of the race. Hang in there, Mr. Greene! One way or another, I have a feeling you’ll have a job soon.

  • Carl Vehse

    Doug Powers had some friendly advice for Alvin Greene in his column, coincidentally entitled, “Friendly Advice for Alvin Greene“:

    Don’t change a thing. By saying virtually nothing, you’ve got the media more frustrated than the time Chris Matthews ran out of Puffs Plus during Obama’s inauguration speech, and the more frustrated they get, the more free press you get.

    Second piece of advice: The next time a pasty talking head from a lily white network asks you how you got $10,000, get right in his or her face, and as loudly and as uncharacteristically for you as possible, yell, “Why? If a black man has some money it means he stole it?”

    Maybe Alvin’s just waiting for the White House to call and make him an offer to drop out of the race. Hang in there, Mr. Greene! One way or another, I have a feeling you’ll have a job soon.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    I’m laughing at all the comments…I loved Ann Coulter’s remark that the Republicans, had they been able to actually tinker with the voting machines (as charged), would have at least tinkered enough so Nikki Haley would have won the majority needed to avoid a run-off next week!
    Orianna, good point about less lawyer-politicians, but let’s not put this Greene guy and Joe the Plumber on the same level!

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    I’m laughing at all the comments…I loved Ann Coulter’s remark that the Republicans, had they been able to actually tinker with the voting machines (as charged), would have at least tinkered enough so Nikki Haley would have won the majority needed to avoid a run-off next week!
    Orianna, good point about less lawyer-politicians, but let’s not put this Greene guy and Joe the Plumber on the same level!

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Yeah, the Democrats got nearly 60% of the vote to a man of dubious pedigree who had never held down a real job in the private sector. They SHOULD be ashamed of it…..

    …and of the situation with Mr. Greene, too. :^)

    Sorry, the reality here is that you go for show over substance, it is going to bite you someday.

    And regarding citizen legislators? The ugly reality is that as long as the government spends trillions on government programs that are not “public goods” (like those defined by Adam Smith), you are going to get get rule by the moneyed elites. You simply can’t take off a year and run unless you’ve got some savings to spare…

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Yeah, the Democrats got nearly 60% of the vote to a man of dubious pedigree who had never held down a real job in the private sector. They SHOULD be ashamed of it…..

    …and of the situation with Mr. Greene, too. :^)

    Sorry, the reality here is that you go for show over substance, it is going to bite you someday.

    And regarding citizen legislators? The ugly reality is that as long as the government spends trillions on government programs that are not “public goods” (like those defined by Adam Smith), you are going to get get rule by the moneyed elites. You simply can’t take off a year and run unless you’ve got some savings to spare…

  • Carl Vehse

    Z,

    I liked Ann’s parenthetical response to an 0bama senior adviser’s suspicions about Alvin Greene: “(Yes, how could a young African-American man with strange origins, suspicious funding, shady associations, no experience, no qualifications, and no demonstrable work history come out of nowhere and win an election?)

  • Carl Vehse

    Z,

    I liked Ann’s parenthetical response to an 0bama senior adviser’s suspicions about Alvin Greene: “(Yes, how could a young African-American man with strange origins, suspicious funding, shady associations, no experience, no qualifications, and no demonstrable work history come out of nowhere and win an election?)

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Carl, that was hilarious, wasn’t it?
    Bike Bubba, if you hadn’t read Coulter’s link, you must!
    Ya, who would EVER think someone with that description could ever become PRESIDENT of all things? :-)
    Poor Mr. Greene……..it really is sad, he doesn’t seem to even understand the inferences people are making about him.

    Bubba…. about citizen legislators and MONEY, you are so right.
    In Germany, elections are funded by the gov’t and so candidates who meet certain qualifications all get the same amount to run on…they have plenty of non-moneyed people in their legislature. And no lobbying, or MUCH less, anyway…but that’s another post, of course!

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Carl, that was hilarious, wasn’t it?
    Bike Bubba, if you hadn’t read Coulter’s link, you must!
    Ya, who would EVER think someone with that description could ever become PRESIDENT of all things? :-)
    Poor Mr. Greene……..it really is sad, he doesn’t seem to even understand the inferences people are making about him.

    Bubba…. about citizen legislators and MONEY, you are so right.
    In Germany, elections are funded by the gov’t and so candidates who meet certain qualifications all get the same amount to run on…they have plenty of non-moneyed people in their legislature. And no lobbying, or MUCH less, anyway…but that’s another post, of course!

  • Peter Leavitt

    Mr. Randal @9, actually we do have a democratic republic. A republic by definition [Latin res publicus, the public thing] is rule by the people as opposed to, say, a monarchy. The democratic rule may be direct as with a New England town meeting or indirect through representatives. Should one want to reference a constitution, the term would be a constitutional democratic republic.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Mr. Randal @9, actually we do have a democratic republic. A republic by definition [Latin res publicus, the public thing] is rule by the people as opposed to, say, a monarchy. The democratic rule may be direct as with a New England town meeting or indirect through representatives. Should one want to reference a constitution, the term would be a constitutional democratic republic.

  • John C

    Peter, Alvin Greene and George W Bush do seem to have a lot in common. Given Bush’s opportunities and William Buckley’s guidance, there is no telling how far Greene will rise.

  • John C

    Peter, Alvin Greene and George W Bush do seem to have a lot in common. Given Bush’s opportunities and William Buckley’s guidance, there is no telling how far Greene will rise.

  • Frederick D.

    My dear Leavitt:
    There’s no reason to think the first names in the Boston phone book would be more representative, especially since you’d end up with a lot of people who were closely related or even from the same family. Further Boston is not culturally, religiously, ethnically, politically, or economically representative of the rest of America. The rural perspectives, for example, would be entirely neglected.
    Thus, if Buckley tried to make a point about “representativeness” rather than “incompetence,” he did so in a very incompetent way. Also, don’t you think that to excessively favor “representativeness” is to put a wholly inadequate value on knowledge in governing – something anathema to the Founding Fathers, who were, God bless them, intellectual and accomplished elitists.

  • Frederick D.

    My dear Leavitt:
    There’s no reason to think the first names in the Boston phone book would be more representative, especially since you’d end up with a lot of people who were closely related or even from the same family. Further Boston is not culturally, religiously, ethnically, politically, or economically representative of the rest of America. The rural perspectives, for example, would be entirely neglected.
    Thus, if Buckley tried to make a point about “representativeness” rather than “incompetence,” he did so in a very incompetent way. Also, don’t you think that to excessively favor “representativeness” is to put a wholly inadequate value on knowledge in governing – something anathema to the Founding Fathers, who were, God bless them, intellectual and accomplished elitists.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    While it seems likely that there were not many, if any, Republicans choosing to vote for Mr. Greene given the primary situation, I don’t think it’s really all that “conspiracy”-minded to wonder if “somebody paid his filing fee”, given his apparent economic situation. It’s not like it would be the first time Republicans paid the filing fee for a non-Republican (though in the past, they have tended to pay the fee for Green Party candidates, presumably so as to split the left-wing vote).

    That said, the Democrats should be embarrassed that this happened. Even though their official candidate wasn’t going to win the November election regardless, they certainly look worse now.

    “Why shouldn’t an average American without political experience serve as a representative of the people?” Have you heard an interview with Mr. Greene? Lack of political experience? Fine. But no one could legimately argue that Mr. Greene is competent for the job. I’m pretty certain politicians have to be able to organize people and communicate their ideas well — two things that Mr. Greene has yet to demonstrate. But then, you did also note that “this particular citizen doesn’t strike me as making a good Senator.” You don’t say.

    “Do you think a person really needs to be a lawyer or rich guy to serve in elected office?” What? Who said that? But the romantic notion of letting “an average American” be a politician makes no more sense than letting an average American be provost at a university or serve as the publisher for a major publisher. Competence should be our main concern.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    While it seems likely that there were not many, if any, Republicans choosing to vote for Mr. Greene given the primary situation, I don’t think it’s really all that “conspiracy”-minded to wonder if “somebody paid his filing fee”, given his apparent economic situation. It’s not like it would be the first time Republicans paid the filing fee for a non-Republican (though in the past, they have tended to pay the fee for Green Party candidates, presumably so as to split the left-wing vote).

    That said, the Democrats should be embarrassed that this happened. Even though their official candidate wasn’t going to win the November election regardless, they certainly look worse now.

    “Why shouldn’t an average American without political experience serve as a representative of the people?” Have you heard an interview with Mr. Greene? Lack of political experience? Fine. But no one could legimately argue that Mr. Greene is competent for the job. I’m pretty certain politicians have to be able to organize people and communicate their ideas well — two things that Mr. Greene has yet to demonstrate. But then, you did also note that “this particular citizen doesn’t strike me as making a good Senator.” You don’t say.

    “Do you think a person really needs to be a lawyer or rich guy to serve in elected office?” What? Who said that? But the romantic notion of letting “an average American” be a politician makes no more sense than letting an average American be provost at a university or serve as the publisher for a major publisher. Competence should be our main concern.

  • J

    @18 I agree with every word.

  • J

    @18 I agree with every word.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    I absolutely believe that workmen, tradespeople, etc., are as full, or more full, of common sense than any Harvard type and as easily able to serve on committees, ask questions, and represent their people…maybe even better than well educated university attendees.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    I absolutely believe that workmen, tradespeople, etc., are as full, or more full, of common sense than any Harvard type and as easily able to serve on committees, ask questions, and represent their people…maybe even better than well educated university attendees.

  • David

    Z, your satisfaction with Rep. Barton today proves your standards in this arena are none too high to begin with.

  • David

    Z, your satisfaction with Rep. Barton today proves your standards in this arena are none too high to begin with.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, can you link us to ‘tended to pay’? None of that’s been proven and I’d like to know instead of anybody taking away what you said as Gospel, so to speak. Thanks.
    I thought that about a Tea Party candidate in NV, by the way….right away, I figured Dems had paid, because the Tea Party hadn’t any knowledge of the candidate. Odd, isn’t it.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, can you link us to ‘tended to pay’? None of that’s been proven and I’d like to know instead of anybody taking away what you said as Gospel, so to speak. Thanks.
    I thought that about a Tea Party candidate in NV, by the way….right away, I figured Dems had paid, because the Tea Party hadn’t any knowledge of the candidate. Odd, isn’t it.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    No, David, I think there are dignified, upstanding and honorable ways to deal with tragic situations like BP’s oil spill and I do think the WH’s treatment of BP yesterday sounded more like a ‘shakedown’ than anything remotely honorable. Your standards might be different, that’s fine, I won’t call you on their height, so to speak, I’d never do that. I wish you’d read more closely to see that my bigger beef is with the way his words were misrepresented to appear that Barton couldn’t care less about the oil spill. thanks for reading my blog.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    No, David, I think there are dignified, upstanding and honorable ways to deal with tragic situations like BP’s oil spill and I do think the WH’s treatment of BP yesterday sounded more like a ‘shakedown’ than anything remotely honorable. Your standards might be different, that’s fine, I won’t call you on their height, so to speak, I’d never do that. I wish you’d read more closely to see that my bigger beef is with the way his words were misrepresented to appear that Barton couldn’t care less about the oil spill. thanks for reading my blog.

  • C. Randall

    Mr. Leavitt – I beg to differ. The entymology of the world “republic” was precisely my point. The electoral and self-government aspects of our particular institution are captured within that term without the need of the “democratic” modifier. In one sense, that modifier is redundant. However, and I think more correctly, the terms “democratic republic” describes a government where there is a republic existing in the absence of some transcendent law (i.e. a constitution). As we have a constitution, its my understanding that the proper term for our form of government is “Constitutional Republic” – granted, it may be that the Federal Constitutional Republic is comprised of smaller “Democratic Republics”.

  • C. Randall

    Mr. Leavitt – I beg to differ. The entymology of the world “republic” was precisely my point. The electoral and self-government aspects of our particular institution are captured within that term without the need of the “democratic” modifier. In one sense, that modifier is redundant. However, and I think more correctly, the terms “democratic republic” describes a government where there is a republic existing in the absence of some transcendent law (i.e. a constitution). As we have a constitution, its my understanding that the proper term for our form of government is “Constitutional Republic” – granted, it may be that the Federal Constitutional Republic is comprised of smaller “Democratic Republics”.

  • ELB

    Laws mustn’t just treat everyone the same, they must GIVE THE RIGHT RESULT.

    Here in Illinois (which really means Chicago) the Democrats in the primary election nominated Scott Lee Cohen, a nobody pawn broker, to run as lieutenant governor with Pat Quinn, who himself had been lieutenant governor until Rod Blogojevich was removed from office. Cohen was “talked into” resigning so that the Democrat machine could nominate someone “more suitable.” The “more suitable” selection was not the logical one – the African-Americian runner up in the lieutenant governor’s race, but a more politically connected individual.

    This reminds me of when Bubba talked Torricelli into stepping out of the race and the Dems put someone in without regard to law to assure a Democrat victory.

    It is the law that is the casualty here in Illinois. Cohen was elected according to the law, but when the law didn’t give the right result, the machine insisted on a change.

    Another example is the village in New York where the federal courts required everyone be given six votes each to be sure the right color people were elected. It isn’t enough that the law be fair and impartially administered, but there must be the RIGHT RESULT!

    Cohen is now running for governor as an independent.

  • ELB

    Laws mustn’t just treat everyone the same, they must GIVE THE RIGHT RESULT.

    Here in Illinois (which really means Chicago) the Democrats in the primary election nominated Scott Lee Cohen, a nobody pawn broker, to run as lieutenant governor with Pat Quinn, who himself had been lieutenant governor until Rod Blogojevich was removed from office. Cohen was “talked into” resigning so that the Democrat machine could nominate someone “more suitable.” The “more suitable” selection was not the logical one – the African-Americian runner up in the lieutenant governor’s race, but a more politically connected individual.

    This reminds me of when Bubba talked Torricelli into stepping out of the race and the Dems put someone in without regard to law to assure a Democrat victory.

    It is the law that is the casualty here in Illinois. Cohen was elected according to the law, but when the law didn’t give the right result, the machine insisted on a change.

    Another example is the village in New York where the federal courts required everyone be given six votes each to be sure the right color people were elected. It isn’t enough that the law be fair and impartially administered, but there must be the RIGHT RESULT!

    Cohen is now running for governor as an independent.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Z (@22) asked, “Todd, can you link us to ‘tended to pay’? None of that’s been proven and I’d like to know instead of anybody taking away what you said as Gospel, so to speak.”

    Am I the only one who knows how to use Google? Honestly, people, do some research! And how can you reasonably assert that “none of that’s been proven” if you don’t even know what I’m talking about? “Hey, I don’t know what you’re referring to, but it’s not true!” Hmm.

    Unfortunately, most news articles from 2000 and 2004 are behind pay walls now. (I can get access to archived stories through my library’s Web site, but that won’t help any of you to read them.)

    Here’s a quote from one of the few articles that are freely available:

    “A Green Party candidate recruited into a Metropolitan King County Council race by a woman with Republican ties said yesterday he was dropping out and does not want his name to appear on the ballot. … He was recruited by Leslie Donovan, a former lobbyist and newspaper publisher, who told South King County Greens she was an environmentalist who wanted to help find a candidate for the council’s 13th District. Donovan is married to Stan Shore, a Republican campaign consultant working for Sen. Pam Roach, one of two GOP candidates in the race. Donovan rented a room for the Green nominating convention, made herself convention chairwoman and paid Jepson’s filing fee.”

    Here’s another one I could find, though not from the best source (feel free to use Google News to find better, though less free, sources):

    “On Nov. 2 however, voters will see three names on the ballot, including Green Party candidate Brook Madsen of Carmel Valley—who dropped out of the race when he discovered that Paul Bruno, vice-chairman of the Monterey County Republican Central Committee and Maldonado supporter convinced Madsen to put his name on the ballot as a Green Party candidate, thus diluting votes. “That was wrong,” says Maldonado. “He shouldn’t have done that and I hope he learns something.” According to Madsen, Bruno also paid his $950 filing fee with cashier’s checks.”[1]

    [1]almadentimes.com/100704/mald_pin.htm

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Z (@22) asked, “Todd, can you link us to ‘tended to pay’? None of that’s been proven and I’d like to know instead of anybody taking away what you said as Gospel, so to speak.”

    Am I the only one who knows how to use Google? Honestly, people, do some research! And how can you reasonably assert that “none of that’s been proven” if you don’t even know what I’m talking about? “Hey, I don’t know what you’re referring to, but it’s not true!” Hmm.

    Unfortunately, most news articles from 2000 and 2004 are behind pay walls now. (I can get access to archived stories through my library’s Web site, but that won’t help any of you to read them.)

    Here’s a quote from one of the few articles that are freely available:

    “A Green Party candidate recruited into a Metropolitan King County Council race by a woman with Republican ties said yesterday he was dropping out and does not want his name to appear on the ballot. … He was recruited by Leslie Donovan, a former lobbyist and newspaper publisher, who told South King County Greens she was an environmentalist who wanted to help find a candidate for the council’s 13th District. Donovan is married to Stan Shore, a Republican campaign consultant working for Sen. Pam Roach, one of two GOP candidates in the race. Donovan rented a room for the Green nominating convention, made herself convention chairwoman and paid Jepson’s filing fee.”

    Here’s another one I could find, though not from the best source (feel free to use Google News to find better, though less free, sources):

    “On Nov. 2 however, voters will see three names on the ballot, including Green Party candidate Brook Madsen of Carmel Valley—who dropped out of the race when he discovered that Paul Bruno, vice-chairman of the Monterey County Republican Central Committee and Maldonado supporter convinced Madsen to put his name on the ballot as a Green Party candidate, thus diluting votes. “That was wrong,” says Maldonado. “He shouldn’t have done that and I hope he learns something.” According to Madsen, Bruno also paid his $950 filing fee with cashier’s checks.”[1]

    [1]almadentimes.com/100704/mald_pin.htm

  • Peter Leavitt

    Mr. Randall, the term democratic is related to the public thing of the termrepublic in that its Greek derivation has to do with demo, the people, and cratic, rule by- combined, rule by the people as opposed to rule by a monarch or an aristocracy. The Constitution itself begins with We the people of the United States in order to form a more perfect union… Historically, the Constitution was established to correct the serious lack of unity among the states that marred the Articles of Confederation.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Mr. Randall, the term democratic is related to the public thing of the termrepublic in that its Greek derivation has to do with demo, the people, and cratic, rule by- combined, rule by the people as opposed to rule by a monarch or an aristocracy. The Constitution itself begins with We the people of the United States in order to form a more perfect union… Historically, the Constitution was established to correct the serious lack of unity among the states that marred the Articles of Confederation.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Um, tODD, two examples does not a “tendency” make, does it? Even if the man’s fees WERE paid by the GOP, moreover, that does not make it any less hilarious that 60% of democratic voters cheerfully selected a candidate completely unknown to them because his name was first. If liberals are going to argue that they’re the thinking man’s party, they’ve got to avoid things like this.

    And the difference between a “democracy” and a “republic” is that in the former, all adults (or in Athens, adult males) can vote, and in a republic, that is limited to “electors.” Formerly in some places in our country, the vote was restricted to those who owned land, and today the thought is that voters ought to be taxpayers–to avoid the idea of people voting themselves a subsidy. The republic also is (at least in theory) bound by law per Rutherford’s Lex Rex.

    We should have a republic, but we’re definitely tending towards democracy. Watch out for hemlock!

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Um, tODD, two examples does not a “tendency” make, does it? Even if the man’s fees WERE paid by the GOP, moreover, that does not make it any less hilarious that 60% of democratic voters cheerfully selected a candidate completely unknown to them because his name was first. If liberals are going to argue that they’re the thinking man’s party, they’ve got to avoid things like this.

    And the difference between a “democracy” and a “republic” is that in the former, all adults (or in Athens, adult males) can vote, and in a republic, that is limited to “electors.” Formerly in some places in our country, the vote was restricted to those who owned land, and today the thought is that voters ought to be taxpayers–to avoid the idea of people voting themselves a subsidy. The republic also is (at least in theory) bound by law per Rutherford’s Lex Rex.

    We should have a republic, but we’re definitely tending towards democracy. Watch out for hemlock!

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, thanks, yes, I Googled and I did know what you were talking about….what prompted you to say I didn’t? No, there are plenty of accusations that have not been proven….some which have. Good on you that you found some, i didn’t. I did find plenty which are not yet to court, unproven.
    I may just turn into a Liberal…it’s so much easier with a media like ours, isn’t it? thanks, you’re always very charming.

  • http://gollygeeez.blogspot.com/ Z

    Todd, thanks, yes, I Googled and I did know what you were talking about….what prompted you to say I didn’t? No, there are plenty of accusations that have not been proven….some which have. Good on you that you found some, i didn’t. I did find plenty which are not yet to court, unproven.
    I may just turn into a Liberal…it’s so much easier with a media like ours, isn’t it? thanks, you’re always very charming.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Bike, good points. I would say in recent years the liberal elitist media, academia, and Hollywood have attempted to overrule the large majority of American people.

    Just now in America the people are well along the way of understanding that Obama/Pelosi/Reid are interested in the sort of expensive elitist statism that most Americans abhor. Come November 2010 and 2012 the democratic American people will have their say and likely give the liberal elitists a devastating message.

    I should say we are blessed to have both a democracy and republic. In the long run the American people can be trusted, though we are involved in serious moral decline brought on largely by both religious and political liberals.

    This Greene matter is a pleasant episode that South Carolina has provided for comic relief in a time of a disastrous oil spill and feckless national leadership.

  • Peter Leavitt

    Bike, good points. I would say in recent years the liberal elitist media, academia, and Hollywood have attempted to overrule the large majority of American people.

    Just now in America the people are well along the way of understanding that Obama/Pelosi/Reid are interested in the sort of expensive elitist statism that most Americans abhor. Come November 2010 and 2012 the democratic American people will have their say and likely give the liberal elitists a devastating message.

    I should say we are blessed to have both a democracy and republic. In the long run the American people can be trusted, though we are involved in serious moral decline brought on largely by both religious and political liberals.

    This Greene matter is a pleasant episode that South Carolina has provided for comic relief in a time of a disastrous oil spill and feckless national leadership.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Bubba (@28), said, “Um, tODD, two examples does not a ‘tendency’ make, does it?” Oh, of course not — only if it’s liberals doing it ha ha ha, right? No, look, here’s what I actually said (@18):

    It’s not like it would be the first time Republicans paid the filing fee for a non-Republican (though in the past, they have tended to pay the fee for Green Party candidates, presumably so as to split the left-wing vote).

    So ask yourself, Bubba, of the cases where Republicans have paid the filing fees for non-Republican-Party candidates, what party have they “tended” to pay the fees for? Feel free to provide better data than the stuff I’ve been able to scrape up. But merely dismissing it without any data of your own isn’t likely to convince me. Oh, and how many examples do make a tendency, anyhow?

    Z (@29), if you “did know what [I was] talking about”, then why did you ask me for links? You already had them at your disposal. Why not just provide them for us yourself? That doesn’t make sense.

    And Peter (@30), “liberal elitist media, academia, and Hollywood”? What, are you using the Conservative Blog Comment Generator?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Bubba (@28), said, “Um, tODD, two examples does not a ‘tendency’ make, does it?” Oh, of course not — only if it’s liberals doing it ha ha ha, right? No, look, here’s what I actually said (@18):

    It’s not like it would be the first time Republicans paid the filing fee for a non-Republican (though in the past, they have tended to pay the fee for Green Party candidates, presumably so as to split the left-wing vote).

    So ask yourself, Bubba, of the cases where Republicans have paid the filing fees for non-Republican-Party candidates, what party have they “tended” to pay the fees for? Feel free to provide better data than the stuff I’ve been able to scrape up. But merely dismissing it without any data of your own isn’t likely to convince me. Oh, and how many examples do make a tendency, anyhow?

    Z (@29), if you “did know what [I was] talking about”, then why did you ask me for links? You already had them at your disposal. Why not just provide them for us yourself? That doesn’t make sense.

    And Peter (@30), “liberal elitist media, academia, and Hollywood”? What, are you using the Conservative Blog Comment Generator?

  • sg

    Greene is an example of the folks who get elected by people without a vested interest in the success of their community or nation. The original form of the US constitution limited the voting franchise to those would most likely have an interest in the success of the country: property owners.

  • sg

    Greene is an example of the folks who get elected by people without a vested interest in the success of their community or nation. The original form of the US constitution limited the voting franchise to those would most likely have an interest in the success of the country: property owners.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@32) said, “Greene is an example of the folks who get elected by people without a vested interest in the success of their community or nation.” Yeah, George W. Bush was, too.

    Er, I mean, how exactly do you arrive at that conclusion? Did you poll the South Carolina voters?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@32) said, “Greene is an example of the folks who get elected by people without a vested interest in the success of their community or nation.” Yeah, George W. Bush was, too.

    Er, I mean, how exactly do you arrive at that conclusion? Did you poll the South Carolina voters?

  • DonS

    tODD @ 18: You hit on why it’s conspiratorial in this case to assume Republican hijinks — it’s not a competitive seat. I can see either party trying to cause the other party to run a less competitive candidate in a truly competitive election, but there is no earthly reason why Republicans would have paid the filing fee for Greene in this race. They are going to retain the seat no matter which Democrat runs.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 18: You hit on why it’s conspiratorial in this case to assume Republican hijinks — it’s not a competitive seat. I can see either party trying to cause the other party to run a less competitive candidate in a truly competitive election, but there is no earthly reason why Republicans would have paid the filing fee for Greene in this race. They are going to retain the seat no matter which Democrat runs.

  • sg

    todd, How many property owners do you know who would vote for Green? They don’t vote for totally unknown candidates. I am calling Greene totally unknown because he didn’t campaign, so it isn’t possible that informed voters elected him.

    I also didn’t poll participants in last year’s San Francisco Gay Pride Parade, but I will assert that the majority of those participants were not LCMS pastors.

    The majority of South Carolina Democrats voted for Greene and he was totally unknown to the voting public.

    Who votes for a totally unknown candidate unendorsed by anyone?
    Is that the typical behavior of property owners? Uh, no.

  • sg

    todd, How many property owners do you know who would vote for Green? They don’t vote for totally unknown candidates. I am calling Greene totally unknown because he didn’t campaign, so it isn’t possible that informed voters elected him.

    I also didn’t poll participants in last year’s San Francisco Gay Pride Parade, but I will assert that the majority of those participants were not LCMS pastors.

    The majority of South Carolina Democrats voted for Greene and he was totally unknown to the voting public.

    Who votes for a totally unknown candidate unendorsed by anyone?
    Is that the typical behavior of property owners? Uh, no.

  • DonS

    As for qualifications, I think the Democrats are now realizing why they should have run a more qualified presidential candidate in 2008.

  • DonS

    As for qualifications, I think the Democrats are now realizing why they should have run a more qualified presidential candidate in 2008.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    There’s another factor: Voting AGAINST someone. If people didn’t like the well-known establishment candidate, they might vote for the alternative even though they don’t know much about that candidate. In fact, I believe I’ve done that.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    There’s another factor: Voting AGAINST someone. If people didn’t like the well-known establishment candidate, they might vote for the alternative even though they don’t know much about that candidate. In fact, I believe I’ve done that.

  • Tom Hering

    “The original form of the US constitution limited the voting franchise to those would most likely have an interest in the success of the country: property owners.”

    Said property owners including slave owners who – in that idyllic, golden age of our Republic – no doubt equated the success of the country with the failure of abolition.

  • Tom Hering

    “The original form of the US constitution limited the voting franchise to those would most likely have an interest in the success of the country: property owners.”

    Said property owners including slave owners who – in that idyllic, golden age of our Republic – no doubt equated the success of the country with the failure of abolition.

  • Cincinnatus

    Just a lexical note: “republic” does not necessarily indicate “rule by the people,” as Peter insists above. There are many species of republicanism: classical republicanism, civic republicanism, democratic republicanism, etc.

    The most commonly understood form of “republicanism” prior to the civic republicanism popularized in the seventeenth century (which did indeed include a measure of popular sovereignty), a “republic” was the word used to denote a “mixed” constitution–a government including elements of one, few, and many; of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy/the people/the poor. None of those elements need necessarily entail democratic mechanisms; alternatively, all of them could if desired. Aristotle hinted at this sort of “mixed” republic as his ideal constitution, and Polybius insisted upon it. Interestingly, Polybius was a favorite of the Founders.

    That minor point aside, Z, I have to say: you’re exhibiting the worst form of partisanship. I’d say it’s difficult to deny that the Republican party is guilty of funding third-party candidates in an effort to undermine the Democratic party–whether few or many. Why are you attempting to deny or defend such actions? Why are you even surprised? No one is saying that the Democracy party isn’t guilty of numerous indiscretions either. Both parties are managed by, represented by, and too often elected by pragmatic, unethical hacks. That, unfortunately, is how democracy, classically speaking, works.

    Which is why civic republicanism–Peter, take note!–absolutely insisted upon the necessity of a virtuous populace in order for any kind of popular sovereignty to be viable.

    It should be fairly obvious–not only from the example of Greene and “F@rtbama” or whatever we’re calling him today, but also from essentially every other politician in high office at the moment–that ours is a nation constituted by the demos (which, to Aristotle, Plato, and others, designated the poor, unruly, coarse, and selfish) and ruled by demagogues.

    p.s. Seriously, folks, can we end the “liberal media” meme? “The media”–as if it were a monolithic, conspiratorial entity controlling our minds–isn’t anything politically. Fox News–the largest television media outlet!–is quite obviously not “liberal.” ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN are, if anything, corporatist, looking out for their own bottom line if nothing else. Newsweek and MSNBC are “liberal,” but then CNBC and The Economist–one of the best publications out there–are not. Neither is the Wall Street Journal. All of talk radio is (neo)conservative. Point being, it’s somewhat difficult to claim martyrdom at the hands of the liberal media singularity in this particular age.

  • Cincinnatus

    Just a lexical note: “republic” does not necessarily indicate “rule by the people,” as Peter insists above. There are many species of republicanism: classical republicanism, civic republicanism, democratic republicanism, etc.

    The most commonly understood form of “republicanism” prior to the civic republicanism popularized in the seventeenth century (which did indeed include a measure of popular sovereignty), a “republic” was the word used to denote a “mixed” constitution–a government including elements of one, few, and many; of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy/the people/the poor. None of those elements need necessarily entail democratic mechanisms; alternatively, all of them could if desired. Aristotle hinted at this sort of “mixed” republic as his ideal constitution, and Polybius insisted upon it. Interestingly, Polybius was a favorite of the Founders.

    That minor point aside, Z, I have to say: you’re exhibiting the worst form of partisanship. I’d say it’s difficult to deny that the Republican party is guilty of funding third-party candidates in an effort to undermine the Democratic party–whether few or many. Why are you attempting to deny or defend such actions? Why are you even surprised? No one is saying that the Democracy party isn’t guilty of numerous indiscretions either. Both parties are managed by, represented by, and too often elected by pragmatic, unethical hacks. That, unfortunately, is how democracy, classically speaking, works.

    Which is why civic republicanism–Peter, take note!–absolutely insisted upon the necessity of a virtuous populace in order for any kind of popular sovereignty to be viable.

    It should be fairly obvious–not only from the example of Greene and “F@rtbama” or whatever we’re calling him today, but also from essentially every other politician in high office at the moment–that ours is a nation constituted by the demos (which, to Aristotle, Plato, and others, designated the poor, unruly, coarse, and selfish) and ruled by demagogues.

    p.s. Seriously, folks, can we end the “liberal media” meme? “The media”–as if it were a monolithic, conspiratorial entity controlling our minds–isn’t anything politically. Fox News–the largest television media outlet!–is quite obviously not “liberal.” ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN are, if anything, corporatist, looking out for their own bottom line if nothing else. Newsweek and MSNBC are “liberal,” but then CNBC and The Economist–one of the best publications out there–are not. Neither is the Wall Street Journal. All of talk radio is (neo)conservative. Point being, it’s somewhat difficult to claim martyrdom at the hands of the liberal media singularity in this particular age.

  • Cincinnatus

    Forgive my numerous typos and, in my third sentence especially, improper constructions. Forgot to edit!

  • Cincinnatus

    Forgive my numerous typos and, in my third sentence especially, improper constructions. Forgot to edit!

  • Dan Kempin

    Veith, #37,

    “In fact, I believe I’ve done that.”

    Was that during the Richard Pryor campaign for “None of the Above?”

  • Dan Kempin

    Veith, #37,

    “In fact, I believe I’ve done that.”

    Was that during the Richard Pryor campaign for “None of the Above?”

  • SAL

    Ideally a community would have enough real bonds to elect someone they know and trust without excessive campaigning.

    However many of the bonds of community have been destroyed. We don’t know each other anymore. We’re strangers in our own towns.

    We don’t elect our own politicians from our own communities. We elect media created fantasies with little basis in reality. When they turn out to be shallow men we are either disillusioned or deluded.

  • SAL

    Ideally a community would have enough real bonds to elect someone they know and trust without excessive campaigning.

    However many of the bonds of community have been destroyed. We don’t know each other anymore. We’re strangers in our own towns.

    We don’t elect our own politicians from our own communities. We elect media created fantasies with little basis in reality. When they turn out to be shallow men we are either disillusioned or deluded.

  • Steven Peterson

    @tODD #18. Have you ever seen Harry Reid testify (not chair a committee, but actually testify) before a committee of the Senate? I have. It was not pretty. There was nothing articulate or coherent, merely rambling confusion – and he’s one of the “best”.

  • Steven Peterson

    @tODD #18. Have you ever seen Harry Reid testify (not chair a committee, but actually testify) before a committee of the Senate? I have. It was not pretty. There was nothing articulate or coherent, merely rambling confusion – and he’s one of the “best”.


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