“And then they are all mine”

Al Mohler, himself a seminary president, discusses the agenda of some college professors:

On many campuses, a significant number of faculty members are representatives of what has been called the “adversary culture.” They see their role as political and ideological, and they define their teaching role in these terms. Their agenda is nothing less than to separate students from their Christian beliefs and their intellectual and moral commitments.

A good many of these professors deny this agenda, but from time to time the mask is removed. Writing at the “University Diaries” column at the site InsideHigherEd.com, a professor of English revealed this agenda with amazing candor. Responding to an argument about the power of intellectual elites, this professor dropped any effort to hide the real agenda:

“We need to encourage everyone to be in college for as many years as they possibly can,” this professor wrote, “in the hope that somewhere along the line they might get some exposure to the world outside their town, and to moral ideas not exclusively derived from their parents’ religion. If they don’t get this in college, they’re not going to get it anywhere else.”

This professor minces no words. The college experience, the argument goes, is the best (and perhaps last) opportunity for someone to break students’ commitments to the moral convictions “derived from their parents’ religion.”

Similarly, writing in a Seattle newspaper, a teacher of English and college adviser at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois reveals this ideological agenda in even more shocking terms. Bill Savage reacts to the fact that the so-called conservative “red” states are “outbreeding” the “blue” states, which are more liberal in voting patterns. Identifying himself as a political liberal with no children of his own, Savage acknowledges that he and his fellow liberals have a lower fertility rate than conservatives. Nevertheless, he insists that educated urban liberals need not despair. He expresses confidence “that blue America’s Urban Archipelago can grow larger, more contiguous, and more politically powerful even without my offspring.” How?

“The children of red states will seek a higher education,” he explains, “and that education will very often happen in blue states or blue islands in red states. For the foreseeable future, loyal dittoheads will continue to drop off their children at the dorms. After a teary-eyed hug, Mom and Dad will drive their SUV off toward the nearest gas station, leaving their beloved progeny behind.”

Then what? He proudly claims: “And then they are all mine.”

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://RoseFremer@yahoo.com Rose

    Yikes! The Ivys exist to improve the gene pool of the legacy students. Legacy parents seem too busy running the country to notice the subversive teaching (e.g. Peter Singer).

  • http://RoseFremer@yahoo.com Rose

    Yikes! The Ivys exist to improve the gene pool of the legacy students. Legacy parents seem too busy running the country to notice the subversive teaching (e.g. Peter Singer).

  • sandi

    My observation is that this mentality also exists at the grammar school/High School level of education; at least here in California. Countless conversation over the past 25 years convince me that public school teachers feel the need to “mold” children into liberal elite clones.

  • sandi

    My observation is that this mentality also exists at the grammar school/High School level of education; at least here in California. Countless conversation over the past 25 years convince me that public school teachers feel the need to “mold” children into liberal elite clones.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    This is not only true in secular educational institutions, but in “Christian” ones as well. I’ll tell a story, naming institutional names but not personal names.

    I have an old friend who’s an ELCA pastor now. From my point of view, he’s abandoned much of the true faith, and his soul is (frankly) in peril. Nevertheless, he told me this.

    “People criticize Luther Seminary,” he said to me, “but when I took my first Bible course at Luther, the first thing the instructor told us was, ‘The Bible is the Word of God.’

    “But at Augsburg College, the way they teach Bible is a plain crime. The clear purpose of all the Bible courses at Augsburg is to destroy the students’ faith.”

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    This is not only true in secular educational institutions, but in “Christian” ones as well. I’ll tell a story, naming institutional names but not personal names.

    I have an old friend who’s an ELCA pastor now. From my point of view, he’s abandoned much of the true faith, and his soul is (frankly) in peril. Nevertheless, he told me this.

    “People criticize Luther Seminary,” he said to me, “but when I took my first Bible course at Luther, the first thing the instructor told us was, ‘The Bible is the Word of God.’

    “But at Augsburg College, the way they teach Bible is a plain crime. The clear purpose of all the Bible courses at Augsburg is to destroy the students’ faith.”

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    “and then they are all mine”

    Who would guide the students to think on their own, so that they might get some exposure to the world outside their college, and to moral ideas not exclusively derived from their teacher’s religion?

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    “and then they are all mine”

    Who would guide the students to think on their own, so that they might get some exposure to the world outside their college, and to moral ideas not exclusively derived from their teacher’s religion?

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I was surprised once at the mindset of a preschool teacher friend, who often betrayed her true feelings that other people’s very small children (pre-pre-school aged) were far better off within the “safety” and the “social context” of school than they were with their dim-witted parents and family in a “backwards” home. This view, unfortunately takes hold with many parents way before their children can even contemplate college, I’m afraid.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I was surprised once at the mindset of a preschool teacher friend, who often betrayed her true feelings that other people’s very small children (pre-pre-school aged) were far better off within the “safety” and the “social context” of school than they were with their dim-witted parents and family in a “backwards” home. This view, unfortunately takes hold with many parents way before their children can even contemplate college, I’m afraid.

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    Point I don’t get: let’s assume the liberal fertility rate is low, maybe even so low that in time, such liberals as this Seattlean English teacher will be extinct. Then what?

  • http://snafman.blogspot.com Snafu

    Point I don’t get: let’s assume the liberal fertility rate is low, maybe even so low that in time, such liberals as this Seattlean English teacher will be extinct. Then what?

  • Orianna Laun

    “and then they are all mine” Did they leave off the “Mmmwhahahaha”?

    sandi @ 2, you are correct. Read the humanist manifestos and compare it to CA education at the high school level. At least it was when I was a student there.

  • Orianna Laun

    “and then they are all mine” Did they leave off the “Mmmwhahahaha”?

    sandi @ 2, you are correct. Read the humanist manifestos and compare it to CA education at the high school level. At least it was when I was a student there.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    All the more reason for parents to take confirmation classes seriously. Perhaps also for pastors to do the same. It is about the only time we have to teach our kids to think for themselves about what they believe before they go off to college to be brainwashed.
    But I would echoe the sentiments that this is not just a college teacher attitude. This sort of thing starts early.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    All the more reason for parents to take confirmation classes seriously. Perhaps also for pastors to do the same. It is about the only time we have to teach our kids to think for themselves about what they believe before they go off to college to be brainwashed.
    But I would echoe the sentiments that this is not just a college teacher attitude. This sort of thing starts early.

  • The Jones

    Why can’t Secular Humanism be recognized as the half-brained, delusional atheistic religion that it is? The day that that happens is the day that those professors are subject to the same non-proselytizing standards to which every other religion is subject.

    What Secular Humanistic professors seek to do is create the “acceptable neutral ground” in their classes, which is their own opinions on religion, ethics, history, and morals. All other religions, especially the Christian ones, and especially especially the conservative Christian ones, are merely “tolerated” to an arbitrary extent in the classroom. There is no plurality and equality of religions. There is only the “neutral ground” as defined by an anything but neutral professor.

    When that happens anywhere else, we usually call it tyrannical theocratic authoritarianism. In most colleges, it’s called the core curriculum.

  • The Jones

    Why can’t Secular Humanism be recognized as the half-brained, delusional atheistic religion that it is? The day that that happens is the day that those professors are subject to the same non-proselytizing standards to which every other religion is subject.

    What Secular Humanistic professors seek to do is create the “acceptable neutral ground” in their classes, which is their own opinions on religion, ethics, history, and morals. All other religions, especially the Christian ones, and especially especially the conservative Christian ones, are merely “tolerated” to an arbitrary extent in the classroom. There is no plurality and equality of religions. There is only the “neutral ground” as defined by an anything but neutral professor.

    When that happens anywhere else, we usually call it tyrannical theocratic authoritarianism. In most colleges, it’s called the core curriculum.

  • Dan Kempin

    Bror points out that confirmation “It is about the only time we [parents included] have to teach our kids to think for themselves about what they believe before they go off to college to be brainwashed.”

    All too true, I’m afraid, but why is that? How did we get to a point where families are willing to hand their children over to the state at a young age and surrender the shaping of their thought to a system that is in many places openly hostile to the true religion? That’s okay, we reason, we’ll counter a full time multi-year education with one class per week for a year.

    Sorry, but if you stop to reason that out, it just doesn’t make sense. How did we get to that mindset and, more importantly, how do we get out?

  • Dan Kempin

    Bror points out that confirmation “It is about the only time we [parents included] have to teach our kids to think for themselves about what they believe before they go off to college to be brainwashed.”

    All too true, I’m afraid, but why is that? How did we get to a point where families are willing to hand their children over to the state at a young age and surrender the shaping of their thought to a system that is in many places openly hostile to the true religion? That’s okay, we reason, we’ll counter a full time multi-year education with one class per week for a year.

    Sorry, but if you stop to reason that out, it just doesn’t make sense. How did we get to that mindset and, more importantly, how do we get out?

  • ELB

    Why is anybody surprised? I remember my first grade teacher countering my parentally imparted belief in creation by saying, “I know your parents mean well, but I have been to many years of school and we now know things that your parents might not have had a chance to learn.” Of course I told this to my father, even expressing sympathy over his ignorance. That is when I learned that happened to be a graduate of USC Medical School with an M.D. and scientific credentials. My teacher found out too. :-)

  • ELB

    Why is anybody surprised? I remember my first grade teacher countering my parentally imparted belief in creation by saying, “I know your parents mean well, but I have been to many years of school and we now know things that your parents might not have had a chance to learn.” Of course I told this to my father, even expressing sympathy over his ignorance. That is when I learned that happened to be a graduate of USC Medical School with an M.D. and scientific credentials. My teacher found out too. :-)

  • ELB

    BTW, that was 55 years ago.

  • ELB

    BTW, that was 55 years ago.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Dan Kempin #10, I really like your last question: “…how do we get out?” especially when the vast majority of our friends, family members, and our brothers and sisters in Christ (even within many Lutheran and other Christian Schools) are so financially, emotionally, and intellectually invested in, as you say, “surrender[ing] the shaping of [their children's] thoughts to a system that is in many places openly hostile to the true religion” and I would add its hostility to the home, one’s roots and immediate community, and family (especially one’s elders). I don’t know the answer, besides encouraging and participating in lifelong catechesis, where I’m at and with the family, congregation, and community I’ve been given to receive God’s blessings through and to serve. Anyway, its a great question and I hope a few more here will help us think through some more ideas about this.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Dan Kempin #10, I really like your last question: “…how do we get out?” especially when the vast majority of our friends, family members, and our brothers and sisters in Christ (even within many Lutheran and other Christian Schools) are so financially, emotionally, and intellectually invested in, as you say, “surrender[ing] the shaping of [their children's] thoughts to a system that is in many places openly hostile to the true religion” and I would add its hostility to the home, one’s roots and immediate community, and family (especially one’s elders). I don’t know the answer, besides encouraging and participating in lifelong catechesis, where I’m at and with the family, congregation, and community I’ve been given to receive God’s blessings through and to serve. Anyway, its a great question and I hope a few more here will help us think through some more ideas about this.

  • Chelly

    I believe this starts in Kindergarten and goes all the way through high school – it did in my case and I graduated in 1987 from a small town school! Luckily, I retained most of what my parents had taught me about life – which was far more astute and understanding of human nature than anything I learned in the classroom. I went for my undergrand at George Fox University – I had excellent teachers who didn’t see their school as the place to do anything but teach the subject matter and the curriculum they had advertised.

    I returned a few years ag0 (to the same school) to get a Masters in Marriage and Family therapy only to find professors who had very definite political and theological agendas. When I objected, or countered an argument (which for some reason I thought we were supposed to do in higher learning) the “conversation’ quickly shut down. It was 2008 and we talked mostly about politics and everything related. This being a school for counseling I was puzzled why this was so important and how it factored in to the process of learning how to be a good counselor.

    I remember a class long talk about Sarah Palin and sexism in politics. When I pointed out the obvious sexism (to me anyway) in the coverage of her my prof. of Human Development basically said she asked for it because of what she was wearing (this prof is a lib and a woman). I also took a class called “Helping Combat Veterans and Their Families”. Sigh. I should have known- it was a two day long indoctrination about how these men and women just didn’t know what they were getting into…the military lied and people died sort of thing. We had two vets to come and speak with their class about their experience – one was the leader of the Vets for Peace movement here. It was all about indoctrination.

    For me it was the last straw – I am a military wife and my husband was arriving in Iraq as I sat in that class. I left my alma mater and never looked back transferring to a non-Christian online university where I feel like I am getting a quality education and paying a whole lot less. There is still some indoctrination but it is much easier since I can just press the Delete button.

    My children go to a charter school currently (when we lived in Alexandria they attended the parish school at our Lutheran Church). I had vowed long ago that my children would not enter the public school educational system and I encourage all my friends to put their children in charter schools if they can’t afford private.

  • Chelly

    I believe this starts in Kindergarten and goes all the way through high school – it did in my case and I graduated in 1987 from a small town school! Luckily, I retained most of what my parents had taught me about life – which was far more astute and understanding of human nature than anything I learned in the classroom. I went for my undergrand at George Fox University – I had excellent teachers who didn’t see their school as the place to do anything but teach the subject matter and the curriculum they had advertised.

    I returned a few years ag0 (to the same school) to get a Masters in Marriage and Family therapy only to find professors who had very definite political and theological agendas. When I objected, or countered an argument (which for some reason I thought we were supposed to do in higher learning) the “conversation’ quickly shut down. It was 2008 and we talked mostly about politics and everything related. This being a school for counseling I was puzzled why this was so important and how it factored in to the process of learning how to be a good counselor.

    I remember a class long talk about Sarah Palin and sexism in politics. When I pointed out the obvious sexism (to me anyway) in the coverage of her my prof. of Human Development basically said she asked for it because of what she was wearing (this prof is a lib and a woman). I also took a class called “Helping Combat Veterans and Their Families”. Sigh. I should have known- it was a two day long indoctrination about how these men and women just didn’t know what they were getting into…the military lied and people died sort of thing. We had two vets to come and speak with their class about their experience – one was the leader of the Vets for Peace movement here. It was all about indoctrination.

    For me it was the last straw – I am a military wife and my husband was arriving in Iraq as I sat in that class. I left my alma mater and never looked back transferring to a non-Christian online university where I feel like I am getting a quality education and paying a whole lot less. There is still some indoctrination but it is much easier since I can just press the Delete button.

    My children go to a charter school currently (when we lived in Alexandria they attended the parish school at our Lutheran Church). I had vowed long ago that my children would not enter the public school educational system and I encourage all my friends to put their children in charter schools if they can’t afford private.

  • http://www.utah-luthern.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Dan,
    1 year? yikes.
    In any case some parents do see fit to enroll their kids in Lutheran schools.

  • http://www.utah-luthern.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Dan,
    1 year? yikes.
    In any case some parents do see fit to enroll their kids in Lutheran schools.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I give science teachers fits. My confirmads and high schoolers have a chance to learn learn from a Pastor who has done master’s level work in microbiology and pathology, who has thought beyond the schlock peddled by Answers in Genesis. I bring in actual peer reviewed research articles by leading evolutionary biologists and show that even according to the proponents of evolution it is all based on an assumption. I don’t need to scientifically prove 6 day creation, I only have to let evolutionary biologists condemn themselves.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I give science teachers fits. My confirmads and high schoolers have a chance to learn learn from a Pastor who has done master’s level work in microbiology and pathology, who has thought beyond the schlock peddled by Answers in Genesis. I bring in actual peer reviewed research articles by leading evolutionary biologists and show that even according to the proponents of evolution it is all based on an assumption. I don’t need to scientifically prove 6 day creation, I only have to let evolutionary biologists condemn themselves.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    All of this think-out-of-your-own-religion is aimed straight at Christians. As long as the students in college are coming from a non-Christian religious background, then their beliefs are respected because we all have to respect diversity, you know. So long as you don’t claim Christ as your salvation, then it is taken for granted open minded and your views validated. It is anti-Christian, period. If you are a neopagan, fine. Hindu? fine. Jewish? okay. Basically anything but rational and a believer in truth and the Truth that is Jesus Christ.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    All of this think-out-of-your-own-religion is aimed straight at Christians. As long as the students in college are coming from a non-Christian religious background, then their beliefs are respected because we all have to respect diversity, you know. So long as you don’t claim Christ as your salvation, then it is taken for granted open minded and your views validated. It is anti-Christian, period. If you are a neopagan, fine. Hindu? fine. Jewish? okay. Basically anything but rational and a believer in truth and the Truth that is Jesus Christ.

  • http://www.utah-luthern.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    DL21 @ 16,
    If what you say is true, then I would ask you to write a curriculum up with some of the original sources that a few of us other pastors might use also. I can’t in good conscience use the schlock from Answers in Genesis.

  • http://www.utah-luthern.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    DL21 @ 16,
    If what you say is true, then I would ask you to write a curriculum up with some of the original sources that a few of us other pastors might use also. I can’t in good conscience use the schlock from Answers in Genesis.

  • Ryan

    On the other hand there are teacher’s, christian teacher’s striving to do a good job. My entire pblic school education was filled with Christian Science teachers. A Jr. High Biology teacher who read the Christmas story from Luke every year before Christmas break because the law had a clause that the historical reason for a school break holiday may be presented. A High School Biology teacher who let us read both side of the evolution creation debate and let us decide. A Physics teacher who walked into class one morning, put an enormous figure (something to the nth power) and said that was the chance life would develop on its own in the universe, think about it (and left it at that). I know there are teachers that pray for every student because of the public school teachers in my congregation, or the young Jr. high science teacher who is a Lutheran school trained teachers – no jobs were open and teaches in the public school who does what he can to fairly teach his subjects.

    Second, our system of schooling can be traced to 19th century Prussian models which believed that children should be separated as early as possible from parents to indoctrinate them for service to the state (the Prussians invented Kindergarten for this purpose). Coupled with progressive education enthusiasts in our country (including, but not limited to, Horace Mann). Later influences were from the Soviet Union in the 30s (notably Dewey). Our system is not intended for excellence or independent thinking but for producing a certain average socialized product. You can argue if this is right or wrong and you can get out with a decent education (at least I did), but that is the underlying philosophy behind US education

  • Ryan

    On the other hand there are teacher’s, christian teacher’s striving to do a good job. My entire pblic school education was filled with Christian Science teachers. A Jr. High Biology teacher who read the Christmas story from Luke every year before Christmas break because the law had a clause that the historical reason for a school break holiday may be presented. A High School Biology teacher who let us read both side of the evolution creation debate and let us decide. A Physics teacher who walked into class one morning, put an enormous figure (something to the nth power) and said that was the chance life would develop on its own in the universe, think about it (and left it at that). I know there are teachers that pray for every student because of the public school teachers in my congregation, or the young Jr. high science teacher who is a Lutheran school trained teachers – no jobs were open and teaches in the public school who does what he can to fairly teach his subjects.

    Second, our system of schooling can be traced to 19th century Prussian models which believed that children should be separated as early as possible from parents to indoctrinate them for service to the state (the Prussians invented Kindergarten for this purpose). Coupled with progressive education enthusiasts in our country (including, but not limited to, Horace Mann). Later influences were from the Soviet Union in the 30s (notably Dewey). Our system is not intended for excellence or independent thinking but for producing a certain average socialized product. You can argue if this is right or wrong and you can get out with a decent education (at least I did), but that is the underlying philosophy behind US education

  • Louis

    DRLit20c – It all depends on how you see science – as the purveyor of truth, or as a process in which why try to understand the world around us. Evolutionary biology is still a younger science, and with recent (as in the last two decades or so) developments in genomics, the expanding possibilities through new analytical techniques etc., it is changing quite rapidly. And educators are normally the last ones to get the memo…

    As a geologist, however, I’ve never seen a single approach / study by any sort of YEC’ist that has any real merit. Our friend Kevin, the “Geochristian”, which occasionaly comments here can back me up there- he’s actually made quite a study of the issue.

    But if we were to return to the issue at hand – once again, in my field (Earht Sciences), very, very few folks have any sort of ideological program. Most couldn’t care less – in actual fact I would say that the more they are ideologically driven, the worse they are as scientists.

    I myself have encouraged my children to be sceptical of what they here – and they will often come and tell me about a point that they disagreed from somebody at school – whether teachers or fellow pupils. At the same level they are highly sceptical of advertising etc.

    But I should add that we are also privileged in that we are within a rural school division in SK, where people are more respectful of beliefs etc. Here the government for instance provides teachers to Hutterite schools, but they are to respect the beliefs and culture of those children.

    My Lutheran friends in the city (Saskatoon) send their children to Catholic schools (which are also government funded here in SK, but as a parallel division), with the proviso that they are excused from Mass, saying the Hail Mary and all that. But in my opinion, the greatest danger to children is not ideological indoctrination (not all that successful), but in acquiring the materialistc mindset of their peers. That seems to be a greater danger – and it is present in the “Christian” schools as well. Having had friends who had their children in Pentecostal / Nondenominational schools, controlled by the relevant church, I would venture to say that that was significantly worse than the government schooling – in quality, in indoctrination, in bullying, in all that. Others (more fundamentalist evangelical) require the parents to commit to ban all alcohol from the home, if you want your child in their school, for instance.

    The best you can do is to teach your children to think critically, and to send them to Confirmation Classes, the younger the better.

  • Louis

    DRLit20c – It all depends on how you see science – as the purveyor of truth, or as a process in which why try to understand the world around us. Evolutionary biology is still a younger science, and with recent (as in the last two decades or so) developments in genomics, the expanding possibilities through new analytical techniques etc., it is changing quite rapidly. And educators are normally the last ones to get the memo…

    As a geologist, however, I’ve never seen a single approach / study by any sort of YEC’ist that has any real merit. Our friend Kevin, the “Geochristian”, which occasionaly comments here can back me up there- he’s actually made quite a study of the issue.

    But if we were to return to the issue at hand – once again, in my field (Earht Sciences), very, very few folks have any sort of ideological program. Most couldn’t care less – in actual fact I would say that the more they are ideologically driven, the worse they are as scientists.

    I myself have encouraged my children to be sceptical of what they here – and they will often come and tell me about a point that they disagreed from somebody at school – whether teachers or fellow pupils. At the same level they are highly sceptical of advertising etc.

    But I should add that we are also privileged in that we are within a rural school division in SK, where people are more respectful of beliefs etc. Here the government for instance provides teachers to Hutterite schools, but they are to respect the beliefs and culture of those children.

    My Lutheran friends in the city (Saskatoon) send their children to Catholic schools (which are also government funded here in SK, but as a parallel division), with the proviso that they are excused from Mass, saying the Hail Mary and all that. But in my opinion, the greatest danger to children is not ideological indoctrination (not all that successful), but in acquiring the materialistc mindset of their peers. That seems to be a greater danger – and it is present in the “Christian” schools as well. Having had friends who had their children in Pentecostal / Nondenominational schools, controlled by the relevant church, I would venture to say that that was significantly worse than the government schooling – in quality, in indoctrination, in bullying, in all that. Others (more fundamentalist evangelical) require the parents to commit to ban all alcohol from the home, if you want your child in their school, for instance.

    The best you can do is to teach your children to think critically, and to send them to Confirmation Classes, the younger the better.

  • http://thefragrantharbor.blogspot.com Catherine

    Reading all these stories makes me so thankful that my psychology professors were truly open-minded… one case I remember where my prof practically chewed out a young man in my Abnormal Psychology class when he tried to say that being a Christian or believing in God is a symptom of schizophrenia. Also, she was very open to letting the Christian students talk about their faith and their views on certain mental illnesses/attitudes towards life. It’s very hard being a Christian in the psychology world, so I’m thankful for those profs who didn’t think us dimwitted or misled for our faith.

  • http://thefragrantharbor.blogspot.com Catherine

    Reading all these stories makes me so thankful that my psychology professors were truly open-minded… one case I remember where my prof practically chewed out a young man in my Abnormal Psychology class when he tried to say that being a Christian or believing in God is a symptom of schizophrenia. Also, she was very open to letting the Christian students talk about their faith and their views on certain mental illnesses/attitudes towards life. It’s very hard being a Christian in the psychology world, so I’m thankful for those profs who didn’t think us dimwitted or misled for our faith.

  • Jim Kruta

    What would Satan say….
    “And then they are all mine.”

    Jim Kruta

  • Jim Kruta

    What would Satan say….
    “And then they are all mine.”

    Jim Kruta

  • Brenda

    I may have posted tis before…In 1980, I suffered through a horrible, Social Studies movie for K & 1st graders about a little duck who got lost from its mother just as the evil bulldozer came rumbling on to the screen. The goal of this terrible open ended video, of course, was to disengage the child from the parents and align them with the teacher, who is there… just one more thing that pushed me down the homeschool road.

  • Brenda

    I may have posted tis before…In 1980, I suffered through a horrible, Social Studies movie for K & 1st graders about a little duck who got lost from its mother just as the evil bulldozer came rumbling on to the screen. The goal of this terrible open ended video, of course, was to disengage the child from the parents and align them with the teacher, who is there… just one more thing that pushed me down the homeschool road.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Public schools are not the best places for Christian students. However, Ryan and Paul are right that there are many very fine people working in public schools and universities. I have friends doing both. The problem is that there is nothing in some institutions that restrains those teachers and professors who do not restrain themselves from the abuse of their position with regard to indoctrinating secular ideologies.

    As an aside, I find it amusing how those who claim to believe in evolutionary theory, which is based on natural selection, absolutely despise natural selection in action. They actively seek to prevent the extinction of species etc. They come unglued at the thought of plants and critters being unfit for a changing world. All of a sudden they become reactionaries wanted to go back to a place in time where these were well adapted.
    http://animals.change.org/blog/view/un_report_biodiversity_more_vital_an_economic_issue_than_climate_change

    Kind of ironic for those who think there is nothing beyond the natural world. If humans are the only critters on earth that can actually affect nature rather than just be affected by it, then by definition, we are supernatural.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Public schools are not the best places for Christian students. However, Ryan and Paul are right that there are many very fine people working in public schools and universities. I have friends doing both. The problem is that there is nothing in some institutions that restrains those teachers and professors who do not restrain themselves from the abuse of their position with regard to indoctrinating secular ideologies.

    As an aside, I find it amusing how those who claim to believe in evolutionary theory, which is based on natural selection, absolutely despise natural selection in action. They actively seek to prevent the extinction of species etc. They come unglued at the thought of plants and critters being unfit for a changing world. All of a sudden they become reactionaries wanted to go back to a place in time where these were well adapted.
    http://animals.change.org/blog/view/un_report_biodiversity_more_vital_an_economic_issue_than_climate_change

    Kind of ironic for those who think there is nothing beyond the natural world. If humans are the only critters on earth that can actually affect nature rather than just be affected by it, then by definition, we are supernatural.

  • Digital

    I just finished leading a series at our church called “Countering Culture” and “Thinking like a Christian”
    This is a wonderful way to introduce a congregation to what is going on in Colleges and high Schools. It focuses on showing how Christianity contrasts to different worldviews and where these worldviews are present in society. Many times we forget how much Marxism and Secular humanism has infiltrated even our own Churches. If you are looking for curriculum I Highly recommend it.

  • Digital

    I just finished leading a series at our church called “Countering Culture” and “Thinking like a Christian”
    This is a wonderful way to introduce a congregation to what is going on in Colleges and high Schools. It focuses on showing how Christianity contrasts to different worldviews and where these worldviews are present in society. Many times we forget how much Marxism and Secular humanism has infiltrated even our own Churches. If you are looking for curriculum I Highly recommend it.

  • John C

    It is just as well you don’t need to scientifically prove 6 day creation Dr Luther.
    And I am relieved to hear you have overturned 150 years of evolutionary science. Well done!

  • John C

    It is just as well you don’t need to scientifically prove 6 day creation Dr Luther.
    And I am relieved to hear you have overturned 150 years of evolutionary science. Well done!

  • John C

    Conversely sg, Christian students may be better off at public schools.

  • John C

    Conversely sg, Christian students may be better off at public schools.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Conversely sg, Christian students may be better off at public schools.”

    Could you explain that idea?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Conversely sg, Christian students may be better off at public schools.”

    Could you explain that idea?

  • –helen

    Elementary school teachers quite often have had one semester of any kind of science. The rest they get from their professional magazines, children’s books and magazines, all of which treat such things as “evolution” as undisputed fact.
    We almost missed the condescending “teachers know more than parents” because we lived in an area where most fathers and many mothers had post graduate degrees. The schools were well aware of it.
    One imported program while mine were in grade school, the SIECUS “sex education” indoctrination (which brought you the present ‘acceptance’ of homosexuality, BTW) ventured to suggest to students that teachers were smarter than their parents.
    My son and his buddies, over after- school milk and cookies, decided that was unlikely, because, “most of our teachers are parents.”

  • –helen

    Elementary school teachers quite often have had one semester of any kind of science. The rest they get from their professional magazines, children’s books and magazines, all of which treat such things as “evolution” as undisputed fact.
    We almost missed the condescending “teachers know more than parents” because we lived in an area where most fathers and many mothers had post graduate degrees. The schools were well aware of it.
    One imported program while mine were in grade school, the SIECUS “sex education” indoctrination (which brought you the present ‘acceptance’ of homosexuality, BTW) ventured to suggest to students that teachers were smarter than their parents.
    My son and his buddies, over after- school milk and cookies, decided that was unlikely, because, “most of our teachers are parents.”

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    And people wonder why after a country falls into revolution, the ‘intellectuals’ (read that as college professors) are rounded up and summarily shot.

    Although I in no way endorse such actions, and realize different groups have done this for different ideological reasons, the professor’s above comments have forever answered the question for me.

  • http://www.newreformationpress.com Patrick Kyle

    And people wonder why after a country falls into revolution, the ‘intellectuals’ (read that as college professors) are rounded up and summarily shot.

    Although I in no way endorse such actions, and realize different groups have done this for different ideological reasons, the professor’s above comments have forever answered the question for me.

  • Digital

    Dr. Luther in 21st Century@16
    Macro Evolution I will agree with you.
    Micro Evolution is demonstrable, viewable, and repeatable.
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

    Pretty cool stuff, But I will assume you were just talking about macro…

  • Digital

    Dr. Luther in 21st Century@16
    Macro Evolution I will agree with you.
    Micro Evolution is demonstrable, viewable, and repeatable.
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

    Pretty cool stuff, But I will assume you were just talking about macro…

  • http://blog.captainthin.net/ Captain Thin

    While I see a lot of comments here about how unfortunate it is that parents have abandoned their children to the public school systems, I see about an equal number suggesting that we should hurry our children into confirmation classes as soon as possible. I’m going to step out on a limb here and suggest that maybe parents should actually take a role in the spiritual formation of their children apart from simply sending them off to church. Christian instruction should begin in the home, not at age 13 in confirmation classes nor even at age 6 in a once-weekly Sunday school class.

    In fairness to university professors, however, its not like they have to work too hard to convince Christian students they’re wrong. Many such students don’t have a clue why they believe what they believe. I remember taking Religious Studies 100 with a fellow here in Regina who told me partway through the semester that his faith was really being shaken by the content material. I was shocked because the content of the class really wasn’t all that threatening to anyone who had an even basic knowledge of the Christian doctrine and history.

  • http://blog.captainthin.net/ Captain Thin

    While I see a lot of comments here about how unfortunate it is that parents have abandoned their children to the public school systems, I see about an equal number suggesting that we should hurry our children into confirmation classes as soon as possible. I’m going to step out on a limb here and suggest that maybe parents should actually take a role in the spiritual formation of their children apart from simply sending them off to church. Christian instruction should begin in the home, not at age 13 in confirmation classes nor even at age 6 in a once-weekly Sunday school class.

    In fairness to university professors, however, its not like they have to work too hard to convince Christian students they’re wrong. Many such students don’t have a clue why they believe what they believe. I remember taking Religious Studies 100 with a fellow here in Regina who told me partway through the semester that his faith was really being shaken by the content material. I was shocked because the content of the class really wasn’t all that threatening to anyone who had an even basic knowledge of the Christian doctrine and history.

  • Digital

    Captain Thin @34
    Precisely. We live in a culture where it is assumed that someone else will take care of things. Find me a kid who is going into college who has been in the same room as a small catechism and their parents and I will show you a kid who is going to do well.
    Of course I am not a parent yet so what do I know. But very few people who know me personally will doubt that I will be involved in my kids schooling, Faith, and relationships. It will make me annoying to my kids I bet :)
    Anyone in this thread have success stories of teaching their kids critical skills regarding faith?

  • Digital

    Captain Thin @34
    Precisely. We live in a culture where it is assumed that someone else will take care of things. Find me a kid who is going into college who has been in the same room as a small catechism and their parents and I will show you a kid who is going to do well.
    Of course I am not a parent yet so what do I know. But very few people who know me personally will doubt that I will be involved in my kids schooling, Faith, and relationships. It will make me annoying to my kids I bet :)
    Anyone in this thread have success stories of teaching their kids critical skills regarding faith?

  • Grace

    Captain Thin – 34 “I’m going to step out on a limb here and suggest that maybe parents should actually take a role in the spiritual formation of their children apart from simply sending them off to church. Christian instruction should begin in the home, not at age 13 in confirmation classes nor even at age 6 in a once-weekly Sunday school class.”

    You have NOT stepped out on a “limb” as far as I can see, you are absolutely right. Parents play the most IMPORTANT role in their child’s development, it doesn’t start in school. It’s a daily process – children scrutinize their parents in every way, they become critical thinkers as they observe their parents.

    You are right on another important point. If Christian parents have not been diligent, teaching their children from the Word of God, carefully instructing them, any teacher/professor can pick apart their beliefs, BECAUSE they don’t know why they believe, nor do they have the foundation of Scripture.

  • Grace

    Captain Thin – 34 “I’m going to step out on a limb here and suggest that maybe parents should actually take a role in the spiritual formation of their children apart from simply sending them off to church. Christian instruction should begin in the home, not at age 13 in confirmation classes nor even at age 6 in a once-weekly Sunday school class.”

    You have NOT stepped out on a “limb” as far as I can see, you are absolutely right. Parents play the most IMPORTANT role in their child’s development, it doesn’t start in school. It’s a daily process – children scrutinize their parents in every way, they become critical thinkers as they observe their parents.

    You are right on another important point. If Christian parents have not been diligent, teaching their children from the Word of God, carefully instructing them, any teacher/professor can pick apart their beliefs, BECAUSE they don’t know why they believe, nor do they have the foundation of Scripture.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @33

    I am familiar with Lenski’s long term bacterial culture experiment. The article is little more than a sensationalized report. Knowing Lenski, I am sure he does see this as proof of evolution (btw micro and macro evolution are made up terms with no real meaning, you want to get laughed at by a evolutionary biologist use those terms). The only thing that is know is the bacteria were able to metabolize citrate, they don’t actually know the cause. They don’t even know if there has always been a strain of E. Coli that can utilize citrate, but was suppressed by a more successful non-citrate strain. E. Coli is a genus that includes many different strains. For instance it is only E. Coli OH157 that causes the so called killer hamburger disease. Really this is no different then lactose intolerance in humans, we know it exists but we don’t know how it came about.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @33

    I am familiar with Lenski’s long term bacterial culture experiment. The article is little more than a sensationalized report. Knowing Lenski, I am sure he does see this as proof of evolution (btw micro and macro evolution are made up terms with no real meaning, you want to get laughed at by a evolutionary biologist use those terms). The only thing that is know is the bacteria were able to metabolize citrate, they don’t actually know the cause. They don’t even know if there has always been a strain of E. Coli that can utilize citrate, but was suppressed by a more successful non-citrate strain. E. Coli is a genus that includes many different strains. For instance it is only E. Coli OH157 that causes the so called killer hamburger disease. Really this is no different then lactose intolerance in humans, we know it exists but we don’t know how it came about.

  • –helen

    I embarrassed mine now and then, by being seen in the Principal’s office, or when necessary, further up the food chain when the Principal was the problem.

    OTOH, my daughter said it was very handy to be able to say, “My parents are ogres; they would never let me do that!” when the activity proposed was something she didn’t want to do in the first place. :)

    Take your kids to church and SS; and go yourself. And keep track of what they are learning there. (E.G., is the Pastor overseeing SS teacher education?) Go over their catechism with them. After confirmation, don’t stop! Support a high school youth group at your church, whether as Advisor, chauffeur, or cook, “whatever”.
    Let them know that they will have to be self sufficient in their religion at college… i.e., get themselves involved in a group & attend church.
    Pray, a lot.

  • –helen

    I embarrassed mine now and then, by being seen in the Principal’s office, or when necessary, further up the food chain when the Principal was the problem.

    OTOH, my daughter said it was very handy to be able to say, “My parents are ogres; they would never let me do that!” when the activity proposed was something she didn’t want to do in the first place. :)

    Take your kids to church and SS; and go yourself. And keep track of what they are learning there. (E.G., is the Pastor overseeing SS teacher education?) Go over their catechism with them. After confirmation, don’t stop! Support a high school youth group at your church, whether as Advisor, chauffeur, or cook, “whatever”.
    Let them know that they will have to be self sufficient in their religion at college… i.e., get themselves involved in a group & attend church.
    Pray, a lot.

  • Louis

    #34- #36: Exactly. As parent, I’m working on that. And, if I can play devil’s advocate here, isn’t this slightly overstated concerns of Dr Mohler precisely because he hails form the somewhat nebulous world of Evangelicalism? In discussions over the last few days, Bror, for instance, was quite eloquent in highlighting the deep differences between us (Confessional Lutherans), and those who attempt to hold to a broad evangelical faith, even if (and maybe, because) that faith is “informed” by Calvinism. After all, he is a FOTF board member, and as such falls under the culture warrior category.

    Not that I despise the concept of Christian colleges / universities at all, mind you. As I said, I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. After all, we are called to the Cross, not to cultural domination (one of the key differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism, Luther being THE Theologian of the Crosss).

  • Louis

    #34- #36: Exactly. As parent, I’m working on that. And, if I can play devil’s advocate here, isn’t this slightly overstated concerns of Dr Mohler precisely because he hails form the somewhat nebulous world of Evangelicalism? In discussions over the last few days, Bror, for instance, was quite eloquent in highlighting the deep differences between us (Confessional Lutherans), and those who attempt to hold to a broad evangelical faith, even if (and maybe, because) that faith is “informed” by Calvinism. After all, he is a FOTF board member, and as such falls under the culture warrior category.

    Not that I despise the concept of Christian colleges / universities at all, mind you. As I said, I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. After all, we are called to the Cross, not to cultural domination (one of the key differences between Lutheranism and Calvinism, Luther being THE Theologian of the Crosss).

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @20

    I agree we need to teach our kids to think critically, but before they can think critically they must know the basic truths. At issue is the modern societal treatment of science is that it is the bearer of truth. Yes, our society has lost sight that science is a way of logically approaching an observational question.

    I would disagree with you on they don’t have an ideological program, everybody has an ideological program that is going to color the perceptions . Even though they aren’t getting out and slapping you in the face with it, it is there. It is in the assumptions they make.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @20

    I agree we need to teach our kids to think critically, but before they can think critically they must know the basic truths. At issue is the modern societal treatment of science is that it is the bearer of truth. Yes, our society has lost sight that science is a way of logically approaching an observational question.

    I would disagree with you on they don’t have an ideological program, everybody has an ideological program that is going to color the perceptions . Even though they aren’t getting out and slapping you in the face with it, it is there. It is in the assumptions they make.

  • Digital

    @37
    I dont think I would be laughed at, considering it was two separate biologists, one ‘evolutionary’ and one genetic, who taught me the terms. Although we could use larger words such as punctuated equilibrium or the ambiguous term “adaptation”. But for the general populace we stick to terms that are familiar. Evolution is as you know simply a matter of measurement, of genetic change. Macro or micro doesn’t matter any more than millimeter and centimeter.
    From what I know about E. Coli from my wife explaining it to me when she did her Masters on nuclear transformations, the scientists involved are acutely aware of which strain they are working with. However, I am not a biologist nor do I have a through understanding of E. Coli cultures so I could be misrepresenting here. In this particular instance the strain that was being worked with had not been able to metabolize citrate 31,500 generations over 20 years.
    Now, either Lenski was really really really unlucky and had not seen this suppressed trait for 20 years yet or a favorable mutation occurred.
    Aside from that, genetic mutation does occur, and it would follow that from there a positive genetic mutation can occur, albeit rarely. Evolution doesn’t care either way, it just measures the change from last generation.
    Unless you are contending that no mutations occur in nature, if that is the case then I cannot discuss further.

  • Digital

    @37
    I dont think I would be laughed at, considering it was two separate biologists, one ‘evolutionary’ and one genetic, who taught me the terms. Although we could use larger words such as punctuated equilibrium or the ambiguous term “adaptation”. But for the general populace we stick to terms that are familiar. Evolution is as you know simply a matter of measurement, of genetic change. Macro or micro doesn’t matter any more than millimeter and centimeter.
    From what I know about E. Coli from my wife explaining it to me when she did her Masters on nuclear transformations, the scientists involved are acutely aware of which strain they are working with. However, I am not a biologist nor do I have a through understanding of E. Coli cultures so I could be misrepresenting here. In this particular instance the strain that was being worked with had not been able to metabolize citrate 31,500 generations over 20 years.
    Now, either Lenski was really really really unlucky and had not seen this suppressed trait for 20 years yet or a favorable mutation occurred.
    Aside from that, genetic mutation does occur, and it would follow that from there a positive genetic mutation can occur, albeit rarely. Evolution doesn’t care either way, it just measures the change from last generation.
    Unless you are contending that no mutations occur in nature, if that is the case then I cannot discuss further.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @41
    Oh mutations occur in nature. I forced a few mutations myself when I was still in a lab. And yes, as a general rule you know what strain you are working with, since I was in pathology I worked a lot with 0H157.

    What I am contending is this sudden ability to metabolize citrate is not all that it has been cooked up to be. They claim this as proof of evolutionary development but they don’t even know if it was a mutation, an insertion by an accidental insertion, or what. Just between plasmids and phages there is a whole bunch of possibilities about what could of occurred. At most this proves what we have already known, in that bacteria is very flexible genetically speaking. All they can say is it happened and they don’t know how. And it is quite possible we will never know because Lenski did not save a sample of every generation (I don’t fault him, I suspect like everybody else his freezer space is limited).

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @41
    Oh mutations occur in nature. I forced a few mutations myself when I was still in a lab. And yes, as a general rule you know what strain you are working with, since I was in pathology I worked a lot with 0H157.

    What I am contending is this sudden ability to metabolize citrate is not all that it has been cooked up to be. They claim this as proof of evolutionary development but they don’t even know if it was a mutation, an insertion by an accidental insertion, or what. Just between plasmids and phages there is a whole bunch of possibilities about what could of occurred. At most this proves what we have already known, in that bacteria is very flexible genetically speaking. All they can say is it happened and they don’t know how. And it is quite possible we will never know because Lenski did not save a sample of every generation (I don’t fault him, I suspect like everybody else his freezer space is limited).

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I think another exceptional resource we have today is the opportunity to get our confirmed Lutheran children involved in “Higher Things” http://www.higherthings.org . I took a crew from our congregation for the first time this year and I highly recommend it. I think as a youth program it is unique in that it actually works to help the students appreciate their home church and at least this one that I attended (“Given 2010″) really seemed to be working hard to equip the participants with some bold critical thinking with a strong eye toward Theology and Worldview. It is encouraging for our children to be able to get together and know that there are others with parents as strange as their own.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I think another exceptional resource we have today is the opportunity to get our confirmed Lutheran children involved in “Higher Things” http://www.higherthings.org . I took a crew from our congregation for the first time this year and I highly recommend it. I think as a youth program it is unique in that it actually works to help the students appreciate their home church and at least this one that I attended (“Given 2010″) really seemed to be working hard to equip the participants with some bold critical thinking with a strong eye toward Theology and Worldview. It is encouraging for our children to be able to get together and know that there are others with parents as strange as their own.

  • Ryan

    Not to steal a thread – but I have mentioned this before when discussions ‘ahem’ mutate into evolution discussions – where can a poor science laymen like me read up on this stuff so I can understand where Evolutionary Biology gets it wrong on one hand and determine AIG is schlock on the other? Give me some sites or organizations or books or something please!

  • Ryan

    Not to steal a thread – but I have mentioned this before when discussions ‘ahem’ mutate into evolution discussions – where can a poor science laymen like me read up on this stuff so I can understand where Evolutionary Biology gets it wrong on one hand and determine AIG is schlock on the other? Give me some sites or organizations or books or something please!

  • –helen

    Bryan, Higher Things is an excellent idea!
    Our youth spent the Adult Bible class telling us what they got out of their trip to Nashville and it was a lot. One of the things they mentioned was getting to know young people who worshipped as they were used to. (Our liturgical congregation is pretty much alone around here.) Some of our young people have gone to HT five times.

    [With several adult friends, not chaperoning a group, I went to "HT for a day" in San Antonio. It was truly a great experience.]

  • –helen

    Bryan, Higher Things is an excellent idea!
    Our youth spent the Adult Bible class telling us what they got out of their trip to Nashville and it was a lot. One of the things they mentioned was getting to know young people who worshipped as they were used to. (Our liturgical congregation is pretty much alone around here.) Some of our young people have gone to HT five times.

    [With several adult friends, not chaperoning a group, I went to "HT for a day" in San Antonio. It was truly a great experience.]

  • Digital

    @42
    Ok, we are in agreement! I thought you were making the case for there being no mutations in nature. I always have fun with that argument. I get a person every once in a while who argues for the evidence of genetic drift being due to a variety of species rather than mutation or stress. Eg, I get a flu vaccination not because there is a new strain, but because a different strain that already existed is rampant (which can be the case).
    MRSA and MDR are my two main examples on why it is dangerous to believe that there is no such thing as evolution. As Christians we can be incredibly obtuse in this subject, which loses us credibility with our youth.

  • Digital

    @42
    Ok, we are in agreement! I thought you were making the case for there being no mutations in nature. I always have fun with that argument. I get a person every once in a while who argues for the evidence of genetic drift being due to a variety of species rather than mutation or stress. Eg, I get a flu vaccination not because there is a new strain, but because a different strain that already existed is rampant (which can be the case).
    MRSA and MDR are my two main examples on why it is dangerous to believe that there is no such thing as evolution. As Christians we can be incredibly obtuse in this subject, which loses us credibility with our youth.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Oh and I heartily agree with Captain Thin #34 and really appreciated Paul L.’s comment #23 (and Ryan’s #19). It reminds me of how I need to personally thank the teachers I know (in public, private, and Christian schools) in my neighborhood and congregation for the very challenging yet great work that they do. Plus how it is my role as parent to encourage and to bless my kids’ other teachers.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Oh and I heartily agree with Captain Thin #34 and really appreciated Paul L.’s comment #23 (and Ryan’s #19). It reminds me of how I need to personally thank the teachers I know (in public, private, and Christian schools) in my neighborhood and congregation for the very challenging yet great work that they do. Plus how it is my role as parent to encourage and to bless my kids’ other teachers.

  • Digital

    Ryan@44
    For me the best resource has been my wife, she was a biology professor for 5 years. Other than that, it has been a lot of reading different Science Journals and seeing what is out there. Case for a Creator has a lot of information in it, but he uses a lot of strawmen. pay attention to Science (http://www.sciencemag.org/), and just research. Check out “Privileged planet” and enjoy it. There is so much to learn. Use your critical thinking skills and always be on guard, whether listening to Christian experts or Science Experts.

  • Digital

    Ryan@44
    For me the best resource has been my wife, she was a biology professor for 5 years. Other than that, it has been a lot of reading different Science Journals and seeing what is out there. Case for a Creator has a lot of information in it, but he uses a lot of strawmen. pay attention to Science (http://www.sciencemag.org/), and just research. Check out “Privileged planet” and enjoy it. There is so much to learn. Use your critical thinking skills and always be on guard, whether listening to Christian experts or Science Experts.

  • Louis

    Bryan, on the subject of worldview thinking: It is rare that I recommend a Reformed Theologian, but in this regard I’d recommend a piece written by Peter Leithart, at http://www.leithart.com/archives/000218.php .

    In effect, while the concept can be useful, in a very limited sort of way, it is strongly rooted within Modernism, having it’s origin in Kant, and being Cartesian in nature (Leithart’s words). I myself used to subscribe to this type of thinking quite strongly (it does make sense within the Strict Calvinist mindset), but my rejection of Modernism led to my scepticism of Worldview thinking as an absolute schema.

    The rigorous commitment to this philosophical approach is one of the main factors that puts me off Contemporary Evangelical / Conservative Christian educational institutions (I use the word “conservative” carefully here, and place it in opposition to “Traditional”). It reiterates my constant criticism that much what passes for Evangelical / Conservative Christian scholarship nowadays is but “Baptised Modernity”.

  • Louis

    Bryan, on the subject of worldview thinking: It is rare that I recommend a Reformed Theologian, but in this regard I’d recommend a piece written by Peter Leithart, at http://www.leithart.com/archives/000218.php .

    In effect, while the concept can be useful, in a very limited sort of way, it is strongly rooted within Modernism, having it’s origin in Kant, and being Cartesian in nature (Leithart’s words). I myself used to subscribe to this type of thinking quite strongly (it does make sense within the Strict Calvinist mindset), but my rejection of Modernism led to my scepticism of Worldview thinking as an absolute schema.

    The rigorous commitment to this philosophical approach is one of the main factors that puts me off Contemporary Evangelical / Conservative Christian educational institutions (I use the word “conservative” carefully here, and place it in opposition to “Traditional”). It reiterates my constant criticism that much what passes for Evangelical / Conservative Christian scholarship nowadays is but “Baptised Modernity”.

  • Porcell

    Ryan, I’d suggest that you get a hold of Francis Collins’ short book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief Collins, a devout Christian, is a world-class geneticist who headed the Human Genome Project.

    He has a chapter titled “Genesis, Galileo, and Darwin” that explains well that there is no contradiction between the Bible and science, including the empirical aspect of Darwinian evolution, though not the metaphysical assumptions that surround it. He claims that modern genetics has proven Darwin’s theory of evolution and that Christians who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis do a disservice to religion. The Bible was never intended to be a scientific treatise.

    I appreciate your earlier comment that notes some Christian public school teachers strive to do a good job and that the Prussian and American progressive educational influence is at the root of this parlous attempt of the schools to alienate young people from their families and churches.

  • Porcell

    Ryan, I’d suggest that you get a hold of Francis Collins’ short book, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief Collins, a devout Christian, is a world-class geneticist who headed the Human Genome Project.

    He has a chapter titled “Genesis, Galileo, and Darwin” that explains well that there is no contradiction between the Bible and science, including the empirical aspect of Darwinian evolution, though not the metaphysical assumptions that surround it. He claims that modern genetics has proven Darwin’s theory of evolution and that Christians who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis do a disservice to religion. The Bible was never intended to be a scientific treatise.

    I appreciate your earlier comment that notes some Christian public school teachers strive to do a good job and that the Prussian and American progressive educational influence is at the root of this parlous attempt of the schools to alienate young people from their families and churches.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @ 42
    The journal Science is a good place to start. Nature can also be a good starting point. If you have a university near by the Science Librarian can point you to a few journals. The introductory portions of research papers have background research that explain key principles/observations being examined, and Science and Nature regularly carry articles that explain topics. Most everything produced by Ken Ham and AiG is built around straw man arguments so I suggest avoiding them. Ham also has a bad habit of setting up trials that are designed to get the answer he wants (All Ready Gone is a prime example of his poor scholarship, the survey is designed to get the answer he wants, everything is aimed at the Old Testament) The only thing I use from them is their pretty illustrations they employ some good illustrators. Dr Robert Weise at Concordia Seminary is also a good resource.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @ 42
    The journal Science is a good place to start. Nature can also be a good starting point. If you have a university near by the Science Librarian can point you to a few journals. The introductory portions of research papers have background research that explain key principles/observations being examined, and Science and Nature regularly carry articles that explain topics. Most everything produced by Ken Ham and AiG is built around straw man arguments so I suggest avoiding them. Ham also has a bad habit of setting up trials that are designed to get the answer he wants (All Ready Gone is a prime example of his poor scholarship, the survey is designed to get the answer he wants, everything is aimed at the Old Testament) The only thing I use from them is their pretty illustrations they employ some good illustrators. Dr Robert Weise at Concordia Seminary is also a good resource.

  • Louis

    Continuing from #50: Wikipedia lists an utterly delightful equation by the same Leithart, that not only reflects on Modernity, but if one considers it carefully, also has a lot of impact on Worldview Thinking.

    “Modernity has for many moderns been a singularly joyless place…And no wonder: If the burden of reducing the world to order fell on you; if you were tasked to construct a theory of everything and then write out the equation; if you had to be on constant patrol along the empty razor-wire borders between religion and politics, art and life, theology and philosophy, nature and society, us and them; if you had to ensure that the trinity of control, freedom, and progress remained in place for all ages—if you had all this to do, you might not exactly be bubbling buoyantly with childish glee.” – Solomon Among the Postmoderns.

  • Louis

    Continuing from #50: Wikipedia lists an utterly delightful equation by the same Leithart, that not only reflects on Modernity, but if one considers it carefully, also has a lot of impact on Worldview Thinking.

    “Modernity has for many moderns been a singularly joyless place…And no wonder: If the burden of reducing the world to order fell on you; if you were tasked to construct a theory of everything and then write out the equation; if you had to be on constant patrol along the empty razor-wire borders between religion and politics, art and life, theology and philosophy, nature and society, us and them; if you had to ensure that the trinity of control, freedom, and progress remained in place for all ages—if you had all this to do, you might not exactly be bubbling buoyantly with childish glee.” – Solomon Among the Postmoderns.

  • Winston Smith

    Funny, I went to a liberal Ivy League university and came out more conservative and Christian than I went in.

    But then again, as everyone on this site knows by now, I’m notoriously contrarian.

  • Winston Smith

    Funny, I went to a liberal Ivy League university and came out more conservative and Christian than I went in.

    But then again, as everyone on this site knows by now, I’m notoriously contrarian.

  • Porcell

    Winston, I had the same Ivy experience. I entered college as a non-descript conventional mainline Congregational Christian; after taking a sophomore Greek philosophy course from a classical scholar, Demos, who argued that The West is based fundamentally on Jerusalem cum Athens, I was awakened and then confirmed from a combination of Christopher Dawson’s Religion and the Rise of Western Culture and a close reading of Eliot’s Wasteland in a modern poetry class, among other writings. I realized that the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment were rather flawed.

    Surprisingly in a long career of investment banking, I have come across not a few classically educated Christians, most of whom sadly agree with me that the West is doomed due to the dominance of secular liberalism.

  • Porcell

    Winston, I had the same Ivy experience. I entered college as a non-descript conventional mainline Congregational Christian; after taking a sophomore Greek philosophy course from a classical scholar, Demos, who argued that The West is based fundamentally on Jerusalem cum Athens, I was awakened and then confirmed from a combination of Christopher Dawson’s Religion and the Rise of Western Culture and a close reading of Eliot’s Wasteland in a modern poetry class, among other writings. I realized that the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment were rather flawed.

    Surprisingly in a long career of investment banking, I have come across not a few classically educated Christians, most of whom sadly agree with me that the West is doomed due to the dominance of secular liberalism.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Louis, thanks for #s 49 & 52. I’ll have to think about this Leithart guy. He seems to be saying that to claim to have a certain worldview is not a very humble and realistic thing to do within the complexity of a fallen world. hmmm. I might agree with that.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Louis, thanks for #s 49 & 52. I’ll have to think about this Leithart guy. He seems to be saying that to claim to have a certain worldview is not a very humble and realistic thing to do within the complexity of a fallen world. hmmm. I might agree with that.

  • Ryan

    Thank you for the suggestions… I got some reading to do now! :)

  • Ryan

    Thank you for the suggestions… I got some reading to do now! :)

  • John C

    Sg 30
    Public education has two major objectives. Firstly, to train young people in the skills necessary to find employment and secondly, to pass on values the state and society finds important — to turn young people into good Americans. Quite rightly, public schools cannot discriminate on the basis of income, race or religion. They are diverse institutions and cannot be responsible for the spiritual needs of children.
    In some faith bases schools, the emphasis is on what makes a good Christian, not necessarily what makes a good American — a tension that most parents do not consider.
    As an aside, the machinations of Texas State Board of Education are more concerned with not only what makes a good Christian but also, what makes a good Republican.

  • John C

    Sg 30
    Public education has two major objectives. Firstly, to train young people in the skills necessary to find employment and secondly, to pass on values the state and society finds important — to turn young people into good Americans. Quite rightly, public schools cannot discriminate on the basis of income, race or religion. They are diverse institutions and cannot be responsible for the spiritual needs of children.
    In some faith bases schools, the emphasis is on what makes a good Christian, not necessarily what makes a good American — a tension that most parents do not consider.
    As an aside, the machinations of Texas State Board of Education are more concerned with not only what makes a good Christian but also, what makes a good Republican.

  • Joe

    Sorry, late to the party but isn’t this article just proving Luther correct when he said:

    “I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth. “

  • Joe

    Sorry, late to the party but isn’t this article just proving Luther correct when he said:

    “I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth. “

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Hey Joe #58, Great quote! Where’s it from?

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Hey Joe #58, Great quote! Where’s it from?

  • Louis

    Bryan @ 55: I have been osscilating between two responses, so I’ll give them both:

    One endevours to give satisfaction, sir. (Jeeves)

    OR

    You have almost completed your journey to the Dark Side! (Palpatine)

  • Louis

    Bryan @ 55: I have been osscilating between two responses, so I’ll give them both:

    One endevours to give satisfaction, sir. (Jeeves)

    OR

    You have almost completed your journey to the Dark Side! (Palpatine)

  • Louis

    Porcell @ 54: This comment by you was quite revelatory! So, I’m not trying to be psycho-analytic, and all previous animosity aside, but here’s my comment on your post:

    You say: “I realized that the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment were rather flawed.”

    There is a lot behind that statement. It seems to indicated that you previously believed differently, and that you also seem to hold on to the concept that historical processes can be “not flawed”. This casts light on your repeating arguments that drive me, and Todd and others up the wall, where you claim clear affinites, and authorities, where we see many more nuances. It seems that you still hold to what I love to call a Pelagian anthropology, whuich is basically that the right laws, the right beliefs, and the right cultural/political system would necessarily lead to success. This reminds me of the Christian Reconstructionists & Theonomists (Rushdoony, Bahnsen and even North, with Wilson being a variant of these), as well as of the Pelagian theology of Finney and his type. Now these two groups seems diametrically opposed, but in essence they follow different approaches to the same end goal. This is why certain types of Calvinism, when rigorously pursued, always seem to lead to a new legalism. Just yesterday I remarked to my wife that for all their liberating Calvinism, Wilson and co have an extraordinary amount of do’s and don’ts they are adding to the burden of believers, regularly. This is the most liberating aspect of Lutheranism for me, in that human frailty is a given, and there are none of the unspoken Pelagian assumptions about humanity. It is precisely these assumptions that lead to assumptions about perfect political systems etc.

    Furthermore, I would hazard that these same Pelagian assumptions lead to an immense pressure to see the world through such eyes, which creates situations where one has to see certain things in certain ways, and cannot admit otherwise, because it will strike at the notion that the perfect system/culture etc is out there, somewhere. IT IS NOT.

  • Louis

    Porcell @ 54: This comment by you was quite revelatory! So, I’m not trying to be psycho-analytic, and all previous animosity aside, but here’s my comment on your post:

    You say: “I realized that the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment were rather flawed.”

    There is a lot behind that statement. It seems to indicated that you previously believed differently, and that you also seem to hold on to the concept that historical processes can be “not flawed”. This casts light on your repeating arguments that drive me, and Todd and others up the wall, where you claim clear affinites, and authorities, where we see many more nuances. It seems that you still hold to what I love to call a Pelagian anthropology, whuich is basically that the right laws, the right beliefs, and the right cultural/political system would necessarily lead to success. This reminds me of the Christian Reconstructionists & Theonomists (Rushdoony, Bahnsen and even North, with Wilson being a variant of these), as well as of the Pelagian theology of Finney and his type. Now these two groups seems diametrically opposed, but in essence they follow different approaches to the same end goal. This is why certain types of Calvinism, when rigorously pursued, always seem to lead to a new legalism. Just yesterday I remarked to my wife that for all their liberating Calvinism, Wilson and co have an extraordinary amount of do’s and don’ts they are adding to the burden of believers, regularly. This is the most liberating aspect of Lutheranism for me, in that human frailty is a given, and there are none of the unspoken Pelagian assumptions about humanity. It is precisely these assumptions that lead to assumptions about perfect political systems etc.

    Furthermore, I would hazard that these same Pelagian assumptions lead to an immense pressure to see the world through such eyes, which creates situations where one has to see certain things in certain ways, and cannot admit otherwise, because it will strike at the notion that the perfect system/culture etc is out there, somewhere. IT IS NOT.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Louis #s 49 & 60, I’m still trying to think through whether or not I really agree with Leithart’s basic argument in that little article, let me try to continue from what you just said to Porcell:

    But real culture, and not the idealized worldview we try to carry around in our head, which one actually experiences in the people one meets and the places one goes, is a lot more interesting, nuanced, flawed, challenging, and sometimes downright fun!

    Does this follow from Leithart too or am I imposing too much of my Lutheranism on him? :)

  • Bryan Lindemood

    Louis #s 49 & 60, I’m still trying to think through whether or not I really agree with Leithart’s basic argument in that little article, let me try to continue from what you just said to Porcell:

    But real culture, and not the idealized worldview we try to carry around in our head, which one actually experiences in the people one meets and the places one goes, is a lot more interesting, nuanced, flawed, challenging, and sometimes downright fun!

    Does this follow from Leithart too or am I imposing too much of my Lutheranism on him? :)

  • Louis

    Bryan – I’m not sure what Leithart would say – I haven’t read that much of him, but I would certainly agree with you there. Porcell calls me a sophist, but then the Moderns are fond of doing that to those who deny the existence of clear-cut, strict categories, especially in matters political and socio-political.

    We live in a messy, sinful world, and as Solzhenitsyn said: “If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

    But at he same time, there is much to be discovered in this world God made – not just the natural, but within human cultures and endevours. Thus I can equally enjoy cynical NY Jewish humour and the extremely funny observational humour of the Zulu people I worked with. I can enjoy the slow rhythyms of a thousand African voices, sining acapella, the complex tones of the Jazz that came out of New Orleans, the rhythyms of First Nation Dances, and the evocative music of the Arabian desert. In doing all this, I do not have to endulge in cultural comparison, or have to determine which culture is best. I do not have to pick one nation above the other. We are all sinners, after all.

  • Louis

    Bryan – I’m not sure what Leithart would say – I haven’t read that much of him, but I would certainly agree with you there. Porcell calls me a sophist, but then the Moderns are fond of doing that to those who deny the existence of clear-cut, strict categories, especially in matters political and socio-political.

    We live in a messy, sinful world, and as Solzhenitsyn said: “If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

    But at he same time, there is much to be discovered in this world God made – not just the natural, but within human cultures and endevours. Thus I can equally enjoy cynical NY Jewish humour and the extremely funny observational humour of the Zulu people I worked with. I can enjoy the slow rhythyms of a thousand African voices, sining acapella, the complex tones of the Jazz that came out of New Orleans, the rhythyms of First Nation Dances, and the evocative music of the Arabian desert. In doing all this, I do not have to endulge in cultural comparison, or have to determine which culture is best. I do not have to pick one nation above the other. We are all sinners, after all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ John C,
    “In some faith bases schools, the emphasis is on what makes a good Christian, not necessarily what makes a good American — a tension that most parents do not consider.”

    Okay, I am still not sure why Christian students are better off in public schools.

    Also, private school students, including Christian school students, outperform public school students on objective assessments.

    One person told me of Christian schools, “You pay for the education. The Gospel is free.”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ John C,
    “In some faith bases schools, the emphasis is on what makes a good Christian, not necessarily what makes a good American — a tension that most parents do not consider.”

    Okay, I am still not sure why Christian students are better off in public schools.

    Also, private school students, including Christian school students, outperform public school students on objective assessments.

    One person told me of Christian schools, “You pay for the education. The Gospel is free.”

  • Digital

    sg@64
    “Okay, I am still not sure why Christian students are better off in public schools.”
    I read an article not too long ago regarding a study on adversity. Seems that adversity strengthens convictions. I cannot seem to find it right now but it had some interesting results. Whether right or wrong, an individual would strengthen whatever belief it was if they were opposed.
    Anyone else read this?

  • Digital

    sg@64
    “Okay, I am still not sure why Christian students are better off in public schools.”
    I read an article not too long ago regarding a study on adversity. Seems that adversity strengthens convictions. I cannot seem to find it right now but it had some interesting results. Whether right or wrong, an individual would strengthen whatever belief it was if they were opposed.
    Anyone else read this?


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