Horror in Mexico

Mexican drug lords, having diversified into human smuggling, have committed a monstrous atrocity:

Gunmen from a drug cartel appear to have massacred 72 migrants from Central and South America who were on their way to the U.S., a grisly event that marks the single biggest killing in Mexico’s war on organized crime.

Mexican marines discovered the 72 bodies—58 men and 14 women —on Tuesday after the lone survivor of the massacre, a wounded migrant from Ecuador, stumbled into a Navy checkpoint the previous day and told of being shot on Monday at a nearby ranch, Mexican officials said on Wednesday.

When the marines went to investigate, they were met with a hail of gunfire from cartel gunmen holed up at the ranch, which sits 90 miles from the U.S. border. One marine and three alleged gunmen died during a two-hour battle, which ended when the gunmen fled in a fleet of SUVs, leaving behind a cache of weapons.

The Ecuadorean migrant told investigators that his captors identified themselves as members of the Zetas drug gang, said Vice Adm. Jose Luis Vergara, a spokesman for the Mexican navy.

An Ecuadorean citizen escaped from a remote ranch in eastern Mexico and stumbled wounded to a highway checkpoint, where he alerted Mexican Navy marines. One marine was killed in a firefight after marines went to investigate the ranch.

“This illustrates that organized crime has no limits or moral qualms about what they are prepared to do,” Alejandro Poire, head of the government’s national-security council, told a news conference.

The incident highlights the extent to which Mexican drug gangs, which used to focus exclusively on ferrying narcotics such as cocaine to the U.S., have diversified into other lucrative criminal activities such as human smuggling and extortion.

At the going rate of $5,000 to $7,000 charged by smugglers to cross the U.S. border, the 72 people represented about $500,000 to the drug gang, said Alberto Islas, a Mexico City-based security consultant. The gang may have simply killed the migrants after they refused to give them more money than they had already given them, he said.

Mexican officials said they didn’t know why the migrants—believed to be from El Salvador, Honduras, Ecuador and Brazil—were killed. Mexican newspapers, citing an unnamed federal official, speculated that the migrants were killed for either refusing to give the drug gang more money to cross the border, or for declining to join the gang’s criminal activities as drug couriers, gunmen or prostitutes.

via 72 Bodies Found in Rural Mexico – WSJ.com.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://RoseFremer@yahoo.com Rose

    Sounds like another Opium War. Which the drug cartels (British) won against the closing of (Chinese) ports.
    If there is to be health care rationing, a good place to begin would be limiting services to people who use illegal drugs.

  • http://RoseFremer@yahoo.com Rose

    Sounds like another Opium War. Which the drug cartels (British) won against the closing of (Chinese) ports.
    If there is to be health care rationing, a good place to begin would be limiting services to people who use illegal drugs.

  • Winston Smith

    Another idea would be to de-criminalize drugs, thus depriving these gangs of their obscene profits. If drugs were legal, the gangs would have to compete with honest producers and sellers.

    Seriously, does no one understand the history of Prohibition? What do you think created Al Capone?

    Yes, I know — you will say drugs are a scourge, and they threaten our children, etc. That’s what they said about alcohol, until after 13 years of Prohibition we got smart and figured out that, when it came to booze distributors, Anheuser-Busch and Ernest and Julio Gallo were a lot safer than Al Capone.

    Unfortunately, the criminal justice industry has as much of a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal, so the status quo will continue.

    Meanwhile, it’s a tragedy about these people who died in Mexico. Maybe if we guarded our border and kept people from entering illegally, this sort of thing would be less likely to happen.

  • Winston Smith

    Another idea would be to de-criminalize drugs, thus depriving these gangs of their obscene profits. If drugs were legal, the gangs would have to compete with honest producers and sellers.

    Seriously, does no one understand the history of Prohibition? What do you think created Al Capone?

    Yes, I know — you will say drugs are a scourge, and they threaten our children, etc. That’s what they said about alcohol, until after 13 years of Prohibition we got smart and figured out that, when it came to booze distributors, Anheuser-Busch and Ernest and Julio Gallo were a lot safer than Al Capone.

    Unfortunately, the criminal justice industry has as much of a vested interest in keeping drugs illegal, so the status quo will continue.

    Meanwhile, it’s a tragedy about these people who died in Mexico. Maybe if we guarded our border and kept people from entering illegally, this sort of thing would be less likely to happen.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Winston,
    Or perhaps if we made it easier for law abiding citizens to come and work, they wouldn’t have to resort to illegal measures and drug cartels to get in?
    I mean what you say about drugs is pretty much true. Now lest apply that same reasoning to the issue at hand.
    But then we want them to be illegal, that way we can exploit them all the better.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Winston,
    Or perhaps if we made it easier for law abiding citizens to come and work, they wouldn’t have to resort to illegal measures and drug cartels to get in?
    I mean what you say about drugs is pretty much true. Now lest apply that same reasoning to the issue at hand.
    But then we want them to be illegal, that way we can exploit them all the better.

  • Tom Hering

    Okay Libertarians, legalize drugs, but this will result in more government and higher taxes. I doubt there are very many places in the U.S. now (post-prohibition) without county-and-state-supported alcoholism programs, family crisis centers, drunk-driving enforcement, etc.

  • Tom Hering

    Okay Libertarians, legalize drugs, but this will result in more government and higher taxes. I doubt there are very many places in the U.S. now (post-prohibition) without county-and-state-supported alcoholism programs, family crisis centers, drunk-driving enforcement, etc.

  • kerner

    I’ve got a better idea. De-criminalize immigration. It is appalling that people who want to enter our country have to place themselves in the hands of criminals like this because we have closed off every possible legal way to get in.

    It is our statist protectionist immigration laws (drafted by Teddy Kennedy in the 1960′s) that are like prohibition, and generating an unnecessary growth of government and costing way too much of our liberty. We now need government permission to work. Where is the authority for THAT in the Constitution?

  • kerner

    I’ve got a better idea. De-criminalize immigration. It is appalling that people who want to enter our country have to place themselves in the hands of criminals like this because we have closed off every possible legal way to get in.

    It is our statist protectionist immigration laws (drafted by Teddy Kennedy in the 1960′s) that are like prohibition, and generating an unnecessary growth of government and costing way too much of our liberty. We now need government permission to work. Where is the authority for THAT in the Constitution?

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Right on Kerner.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Right on Kerner.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    We need to wise up and notice that criminality causes poverty, rather than poverty causing criminality.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    We need to wise up and notice that criminality causes poverty, rather than poverty causing criminality.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or perhaps if we made it easier for law abiding citizens to come and work, they wouldn’t have to resort to illegal measures and drug cartels to get in?”

    This is just pure wishful thinking.

    Go look at Dept. of Justice data.
    I understand that the data necessary to understand the situation isn’t publicized, however it is public information. You are dreaming if you think these folks will end up law abiding citizens at a rate similar to Americans. They enter illegally because they aren’t law abiding in the first place!

    Go visit LA. LA public schools $27k per student per year, 44% graduation rate.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or perhaps if we made it easier for law abiding citizens to come and work, they wouldn’t have to resort to illegal measures and drug cartels to get in?”

    This is just pure wishful thinking.

    Go look at Dept. of Justice data.
    I understand that the data necessary to understand the situation isn’t publicized, however it is public information. You are dreaming if you think these folks will end up law abiding citizens at a rate similar to Americans. They enter illegally because they aren’t law abiding in the first place!

    Go visit LA. LA public schools $27k per student per year, 44% graduation rate.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Legalizing drugs is like legalizing gambling. It gives the vulnerable the tool to destroy themselves and the community. Sure, we want to make it easier on ourselves like lazy parents who don’t want to discipline. Yeah, law enforcement is a pain in the rear, and it isn’t fun, but the alternative is worse.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Legalizing drugs is like legalizing gambling. It gives the vulnerable the tool to destroy themselves and the community. Sure, we want to make it easier on ourselves like lazy parents who don’t want to discipline. Yeah, law enforcement is a pain in the rear, and it isn’t fun, but the alternative is worse.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    John, something tells me you have not looked.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    John, something tells me you have not looked.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I was referring to your false assertion that DOJ data proves that undocumented workers break the law in this country at rates that exceed that of others. Law enforcement data shows just the opposite.”

    No, it doesn’t.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I was referring to your false assertion that DOJ data proves that undocumented workers break the law in this country at rates that exceed that of others. Law enforcement data shows just the opposite.”

    No, it doesn’t.

  • kerner

    I don’t suppose that either of you would like to provide a link to support your position, would you?

  • kerner

    I don’t suppose that either of you would like to provide a link to support your position, would you?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • Grace

    It is wishful thinking to believe in de-criminalizing immigration. Illegal aliens should be sent back to their country of origin. Problems regarding free health care, free education is out of control. We live in a state bordering Mexico, – criminal behavior, etc, it doesn’t work. John, @12 – they might need to support their families, but we cannot support them.

    De-criminalizing drugs would only make the problem more painful, as young people look for new ways to dull their inner loneliness, destroying themselves in the process. Isn’t it obvious to everyone who reads, what excess use of alcohol has caused, the need for treatment centers, most of which find the individual back over and over again? The resources for MORE treatment centers to care for those addicted, diseased from drug use would run in the billions, is anyone looking ahead, AFTER drugs become available with no laws to stop their use?

    California-based law enforcement agencies primarily seize Mexico black tar heroin throughout the state and Mexican brown tar heroin to a lesser extent. Mexican black tar heroin is usually smuggled into the U.S. in amounts of five pounds or less, but occasionally law enforcement seizes larger amounts. In addition, Southeast Asian, Southwest Asian, and Colombian heroin seizures periodically occur throughout the state. The increased availability of high purity heroin that can be snorted allows a new, younger population to use heroin without a syringe and needle. Drug treatment specialists stated that these new heroin users ingest large amounts of heroin and become quickly addicted. Law enforcement officials normally encounter ethnic West African and Southeast Asian nationals in the distribution and transportation of Asian heroin. California does not have any noticeable heroin abuse in its Asian communities. Reports that

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/california.html

  • Grace

    It is wishful thinking to believe in de-criminalizing immigration. Illegal aliens should be sent back to their country of origin. Problems regarding free health care, free education is out of control. We live in a state bordering Mexico, – criminal behavior, etc, it doesn’t work. John, @12 – they might need to support their families, but we cannot support them.

    De-criminalizing drugs would only make the problem more painful, as young people look for new ways to dull their inner loneliness, destroying themselves in the process. Isn’t it obvious to everyone who reads, what excess use of alcohol has caused, the need for treatment centers, most of which find the individual back over and over again? The resources for MORE treatment centers to care for those addicted, diseased from drug use would run in the billions, is anyone looking ahead, AFTER drugs become available with no laws to stop their use?

    California-based law enforcement agencies primarily seize Mexico black tar heroin throughout the state and Mexican brown tar heroin to a lesser extent. Mexican black tar heroin is usually smuggled into the U.S. in amounts of five pounds or less, but occasionally law enforcement seizes larger amounts. In addition, Southeast Asian, Southwest Asian, and Colombian heroin seizures periodically occur throughout the state. The increased availability of high purity heroin that can be snorted allows a new, younger population to use heroin without a syringe and needle. Drug treatment specialists stated that these new heroin users ingest large amounts of heroin and become quickly addicted. Law enforcement officials normally encounter ethnic West African and Southeast Asian nationals in the distribution and transportation of Asian heroin. California does not have any noticeable heroin abuse in its Asian communities. Reports that

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/california.html

  • Grace

    California-based law enforcement agencies primarily seize Mexico black tar heroin throughout the state and Mexican brown tar heroin to a lesser extent. Mexican black tar heroin is usually smuggled into the U.S. in amounts of five pounds or less, but occasionally law enforcement seizes larger amounts. In addition, Southeast Asian, Southwest Asian, and Colombian heroin seizures periodically occur throughout the state. The increased availability of high purity heroin that can be snorted allows a new, younger population to use heroin without a syringe and needle. Drug treatment specialists stated that these new heroin users ingest large amounts of heroin and become quickly addicted. Law enforcement officials normally encounter ethnic West African and Southeast Asian nationals in the distribution and transportation of Asian heroin. California does not have any noticeable heroin abuse in its Asian communities. Reports that

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/california.html

  • Grace

    California-based law enforcement agencies primarily seize Mexico black tar heroin throughout the state and Mexican brown tar heroin to a lesser extent. Mexican black tar heroin is usually smuggled into the U.S. in amounts of five pounds or less, but occasionally law enforcement seizes larger amounts. In addition, Southeast Asian, Southwest Asian, and Colombian heroin seizures periodically occur throughout the state. The increased availability of high purity heroin that can be snorted allows a new, younger population to use heroin without a syringe and needle. Drug treatment specialists stated that these new heroin users ingest large amounts of heroin and become quickly addicted. Law enforcement officials normally encounter ethnic West African and Southeast Asian nationals in the distribution and transportation of Asian heroin. California does not have any noticeable heroin abuse in its Asian communities. Reports that

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/california.html

  • Grace

    De-criminalizing immigration would only make the problem worse. Illegal aliens should be sent back to their country of origin. Problems regarding free health care, free education is out of control. We live in a state bordering Mexico, – criminal behavior, etc, it doesn’t work. John, @12 – they might need to support their families, but we cannot support them.

    De-criminalizing drugs would only make the problem more painful, as young people look for new ways to dull their inner loneliness, destroying themselves in the process.

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/california.html

  • Grace

    De-criminalizing immigration would only make the problem worse. Illegal aliens should be sent back to their country of origin. Problems regarding free health care, free education is out of control. We live in a state bordering Mexico, – criminal behavior, etc, it doesn’t work. John, @12 – they might need to support their families, but we cannot support them.

    De-criminalizing drugs would only make the problem more painful, as young people look for new ways to dull their inner loneliness, destroying themselves in the process.

    http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/california.html

  • kerner

    sg:

    Oh please. All table 16 shows is that there are a higher percentage of hispanics in custody than whites, but there is a much higher percentage of African Americans in custody than hispanics. There is no data in that table indicating the immigration status/citizenship of the prisoners, and no data about asians (a significant percentage of whome are here illegally).

    This table doesn’t prove anything, except maybe that immigration status is a non-factor, because African Americans (who include a small percentage of immigrants) have a much higher incarceration rate than hispanics (who have a larger percentage of immigrants among them). Asians, who have a higher illegal immigration rate than whites or blacks, don’t even seem to register in the crime statistics. Whatever the reasons for the relative incarceration rates among various ethnic groups, recent immigration and legal status vs. illegal status, do not seem to be among them. At least not from this data.

    Maybe a study showing the number of hispanic illegals in custody vs. legal hispanics might shed some light on this, but this table tells us nothing.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Oh please. All table 16 shows is that there are a higher percentage of hispanics in custody than whites, but there is a much higher percentage of African Americans in custody than hispanics. There is no data in that table indicating the immigration status/citizenship of the prisoners, and no data about asians (a significant percentage of whome are here illegally).

    This table doesn’t prove anything, except maybe that immigration status is a non-factor, because African Americans (who include a small percentage of immigrants) have a much higher incarceration rate than hispanics (who have a larger percentage of immigrants among them). Asians, who have a higher illegal immigration rate than whites or blacks, don’t even seem to register in the crime statistics. Whatever the reasons for the relative incarceration rates among various ethnic groups, recent immigration and legal status vs. illegal status, do not seem to be among them. At least not from this data.

    Maybe a study showing the number of hispanic illegals in custody vs. legal hispanics might shed some light on this, but this table tells us nothing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    John, Either citizen/legal hispanics are committing more of the crime, or the illegals are. That is a lose-lose proposition. If we let them in legally, they will commit more crimes, or if they sneak in illegally they will commit more crimes.
    Neither argument favors more immigration.

    Immigrants need to be carefully screened. No one who has ever committed a crime in his own country or here should be allowed to immigrate or reside in the US. There are too many law abiding good folks who are waiting to come for us to consider allowing any criminals in.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    John, Either citizen/legal hispanics are committing more of the crime, or the illegals are. That is a lose-lose proposition. If we let them in legally, they will commit more crimes, or if they sneak in illegally they will commit more crimes.
    Neither argument favors more immigration.

    Immigrants need to be carefully screened. No one who has ever committed a crime in his own country or here should be allowed to immigrate or reside in the US. There are too many law abiding good folks who are waiting to come for us to consider allowing any criminals in.

  • kerner

    “No one who has ever committed a crime in his own country or here should be allowed to immigrate or reside in the US.”

    That statement is pretty close to what the law is now.

    “Immigrants need to be carefully screened.”

    Maybe they would be if we weren’t wasting most of our resources trying to keep out all immigrants.

  • kerner

    “No one who has ever committed a crime in his own country or here should be allowed to immigrate or reside in the US.”

    That statement is pretty close to what the law is now.

    “Immigrants need to be carefully screened.”

    Maybe they would be if we weren’t wasting most of our resources trying to keep out all immigrants.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Check out table 18 too.

    “Whatever the reasons for the relative incarceration rates among various ethnic groups, recent immigration and legal status vs. illegal status, do not seem to be among them.”

    That is not an argument in favor of immigration by a group that either comes in criminally inclined or becomes more criminally inclined the longer they are here.

    Immigrants from such a group need to be carefully screened for criminal record before entering.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Check out table 18 too.

    “Whatever the reasons for the relative incarceration rates among various ethnic groups, recent immigration and legal status vs. illegal status, do not seem to be among them.”

    That is not an argument in favor of immigration by a group that either comes in criminally inclined or becomes more criminally inclined the longer they are here.

    Immigrants from such a group need to be carefully screened for criminal record before entering.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    John, it is all very abstract until someone you know is murdered. The data are clear. They commit a lot of crime. Therefore, to be fair to them and to us and our families and our communities, we need to screen carefully for criminal record. It is rational and fair to all law abiding applicants who wish to come here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    John, it is all very abstract until someone you know is murdered. The data are clear. They commit a lot of crime. Therefore, to be fair to them and to us and our families and our communities, we need to screen carefully for criminal record. It is rational and fair to all law abiding applicants who wish to come here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Besides homegrown white folk who make up the vast majority the US’s criminal population”

    No, they don’t.
    Did you look at table 16?
    Whites are about 1/3 of all prisoners despite being 2/3 of the population. They are underrepresented.

    Look at table 18, too.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Besides homegrown white folk who make up the vast majority the US’s criminal population”

    No, they don’t.
    Did you look at table 16?
    Whites are about 1/3 of all prisoners despite being 2/3 of the population. They are underrepresented.

    Look at table 18, too.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    “It is wishful thinking to believe in de-criminalizing immigration. Illegal aliens should be sent back to their country of origin. Problems regarding free health care, free education is out of control. We live in a state bordering Mexico, – criminal behavior, etc, it doesn’t work. John, @12 – they might need to support their families, but we cannot support them. ”
    Yes lets blame the illegal immigrants for the problems with our healthcare system and public education….
    Grace, I’m tempted to think you have been ingesting large amounts of black tar heroin yourself.
    The fact is we do support large amounts of immigrants, but we like to have this illegal status because it helps us exploit them.
    With drugs, other countries have found it a better expenditure of their money to provide treatment, and prevention programs than to make drugs illegal.
    People think you can pass a law and some how that works. But it tends to exacerbate the problem the same way the liquor laws do today. We actually have made it harder for a kid to buy a six pack of budweiser and a pack of cigarettes than a joint, or for that matter heroine.
    Just a thought but I think we need to reexamine what we are trying to do and see if there isn’t a better way.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    “It is wishful thinking to believe in de-criminalizing immigration. Illegal aliens should be sent back to their country of origin. Problems regarding free health care, free education is out of control. We live in a state bordering Mexico, – criminal behavior, etc, it doesn’t work. John, @12 – they might need to support their families, but we cannot support them. ”
    Yes lets blame the illegal immigrants for the problems with our healthcare system and public education….
    Grace, I’m tempted to think you have been ingesting large amounts of black tar heroin yourself.
    The fact is we do support large amounts of immigrants, but we like to have this illegal status because it helps us exploit them.
    With drugs, other countries have found it a better expenditure of their money to provide treatment, and prevention programs than to make drugs illegal.
    People think you can pass a law and some how that works. But it tends to exacerbate the problem the same way the liquor laws do today. We actually have made it harder for a kid to buy a six pack of budweiser and a pack of cigarettes than a joint, or for that matter heroine.
    Just a thought but I think we need to reexamine what we are trying to do and see if there isn’t a better way.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The fact is we do support large amounts of immigrants, but we like to have this illegal status because it helps us exploit them.”

    There is the money quote.

    Businesses make money off their cheap labor. Tax dollars pay for the social services. That is why Bush didn’t try to stop illegal immigration. There is more profit in paying employees less and charging less than there is in paying them more and charging more. Taxes aren’t as negotiable as consumer prices.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The fact is we do support large amounts of immigrants, but we like to have this illegal status because it helps us exploit them.”

    There is the money quote.

    Businesses make money off their cheap labor. Tax dollars pay for the social services. That is why Bush didn’t try to stop illegal immigration. There is more profit in paying employees less and charging less than there is in paying them more and charging more. Taxes aren’t as negotiable as consumer prices.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “With drugs, other countries have found it a better expenditure of their money to provide treatment, and prevention programs than to make drugs illegal.”

    Please don’t tell me you are talking about places like Sweden or Holland. We aren’t dealing with Swedes or Dutchmen. Immigrants to Sweden commit murder at a rate 10x that of Swedes. They do not have it all figured out.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “With drugs, other countries have found it a better expenditure of their money to provide treatment, and prevention programs than to make drugs illegal.”

    Please don’t tell me you are talking about places like Sweden or Holland. We aren’t dealing with Swedes or Dutchmen. Immigrants to Sweden commit murder at a rate 10x that of Swedes. They do not have it all figured out.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Anyway, what is the Mexican government’s responsibility in all this?

    Isn’t that the real issue?

    Maybe they should legalize all drugs and have programs for prevention, or maybe not.

    Criminalizing destructive behavior is a prevention program, I would say.

    Canada has a huge border with us and smugglers could come through Canada and big drug gangs could have grown up there, but they didn’t.

    Maybe just less criminally inclined. Who knows?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Anyway, what is the Mexican government’s responsibility in all this?

    Isn’t that the real issue?

    Maybe they should legalize all drugs and have programs for prevention, or maybe not.

    Criminalizing destructive behavior is a prevention program, I would say.

    Canada has a huge border with us and smugglers could come through Canada and big drug gangs could have grown up there, but they didn’t.

    Maybe just less criminally inclined. Who knows?

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    or perhaps it has to do with the fact that Canada’s God forsaken climate is barely suitable for the growing of wheat, which means opium, cocaine, and Marijuana worth smoking don’t do well there?
    But they did a pretty good job getting us booze during the prohibition, we can thank them for that.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    or perhaps it has to do with the fact that Canada’s God forsaken climate is barely suitable for the growing of wheat, which means opium, cocaine, and Marijuana worth smoking don’t do well there?
    But they did a pretty good job getting us booze during the prohibition, we can thank them for that.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    I’ve travelled too much to think any country has all the answers, or has it all figured out. Humans are sinful, even white ones, no it’s true I’ve witnessed it. But don’t take my word for it. Just read your own remarks and see for yourself.
    However, sometimes our reactions to problems only serve to exacerbate the problem rather than solve it. And currently I think we exacerbate the problem with our immigration laws, and this so-called “war on drugs.”

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    I’ve travelled too much to think any country has all the answers, or has it all figured out. Humans are sinful, even white ones, no it’s true I’ve witnessed it. But don’t take my word for it. Just read your own remarks and see for yourself.
    However, sometimes our reactions to problems only serve to exacerbate the problem rather than solve it. And currently I think we exacerbate the problem with our immigration laws, and this so-called “war on drugs.”

  • Louis

    Bror – you have obviously forgot about BC. Massive pot operations there, and a lot of that goes to the States. There was this case that the RCMP clamped down on – the fellow who had a mail-order pot seed business from his home somewhere in BC. Apparently, the FBI got a little edgy…

    But I wonder if there’s something in this comparison with prohibition. I’ve seen some statistics, and the rise in organised crime, with the accompanying brutality, since the start of the “War on drugs” have been quite something – someone mentioned a figure of 20000 dead in Mexico, directly because of the drug mafia. A rethink is called for, I agree.

  • Louis

    Bror – you have obviously forgot about BC. Massive pot operations there, and a lot of that goes to the States. There was this case that the RCMP clamped down on – the fellow who had a mail-order pot seed business from his home somewhere in BC. Apparently, the FBI got a little edgy…

    But I wonder if there’s something in this comparison with prohibition. I’ve seen some statistics, and the rise in organised crime, with the accompanying brutality, since the start of the “War on drugs” have been quite something – someone mentioned a figure of 20000 dead in Mexico, directly because of the drug mafia. A rethink is called for, I agree.

  • Grace

    Bror – 28: “Yes lets blame the illegal immigrants for the problems with our healthcare system and public education….
    Grace, I’m tempted to think you have been ingesting large amounts of black tar heroin yourself.”

    “Black tar heroin yourself” – if that’s the best you can do when discussing a subject, you’re limited regarding vocabulary skills – it’s not a surprise, maybe it’s all that mountain air you breath, and then exhale with a torch.

  • Grace

    Bror – 28: “Yes lets blame the illegal immigrants for the problems with our healthcare system and public education….
    Grace, I’m tempted to think you have been ingesting large amounts of black tar heroin yourself.”

    “Black tar heroin yourself” – if that’s the best you can do when discussing a subject, you’re limited regarding vocabulary skills – it’s not a surprise, maybe it’s all that mountain air you breath, and then exhale with a torch.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Feldman,
    Here on Cranach we find that where we disagree with a person on one topic, we find common ground with them elsewhere. That is why I stay on. The conversation is good that way.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Feldman,
    Here on Cranach we find that where we disagree with a person on one topic, we find common ground with them elsewhere. That is why I stay on. The conversation is good that way.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Louis,
    Yes, I heard about that one. just forgot about it. Point taken. But I’m sure Sg. is floored right now.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Louis,
    Yes, I heard about that one. just forgot about it. Point taken. But I’m sure Sg. is floored right now.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    Believe me, my vocabulary isn’t limited, just carefully chosen to convey my thought in concise a manner as necessary.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    Believe me, my vocabulary isn’t limited, just carefully chosen to convey my thought in concise a manner as necessary.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Well, I looked up from typing and the police were running through my back yard. Later they knocked on the front door to tell me they got one of the guys but not the other. Oh, yeah. How ironic we are discussing crime.

    Bror,

    You were right on about bringing folks in to exploit them. We tried that before in our history. It didn’t work out well. We are still dealing with the fallout. There is a lack of honesty in many of the discussions about crime, drugs, immigration because as you stated all humans are sinful. That said, there are better policies and data will help us which ones are effective. The problem is the courage to act and not be afraid of being called names etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Well, I looked up from typing and the police were running through my back yard. Later they knocked on the front door to tell me they got one of the guys but not the other. Oh, yeah. How ironic we are discussing crime.

    Bror,

    You were right on about bringing folks in to exploit them. We tried that before in our history. It didn’t work out well. We are still dealing with the fallout. There is a lack of honesty in many of the discussions about crime, drugs, immigration because as you stated all humans are sinful. That said, there are better policies and data will help us which ones are effective. The problem is the courage to act and not be afraid of being called names etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Humans are sinful, even white ones, no it’s true I’ve witnessed it. But don’t take my word for it. Just read your own remarks and see for yourself.”

    Even Asians. Their prison numbers were too low to make the chart, but not zero.

    Not sure what you are referring to in my remarks, but I am willing to consider what you mean if you care to be specific.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Humans are sinful, even white ones, no it’s true I’ve witnessed it. But don’t take my word for it. Just read your own remarks and see for yourself.”

    Even Asians. Their prison numbers were too low to make the chart, but not zero.

    Not sure what you are referring to in my remarks, but I am willing to consider what you mean if you care to be specific.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    I agree with Bror’s point, however bluntly, presented about California’s problems. While immigrants may be exacerbating your problems, they aren’t causing them.

    California is going broke because it has an expensive welfare state and a love affair with social services and an entrenched class of public employees, all of which are bleeding you dry. The immigrants may accelerate that process, but you’d be hemoraging without them.

    Take the “free” education that immigrant kids get. It is supported by taxes, which illegal immigrants pay, both directly and indirectly. Everytime an immigrant buys something in a store, or fills up his gas tank or purchases alcohol or tobacco, that immigrant pays a tax. If they own property, which an amazing amount of illegals do, thy pay property taxes directly. But even if they only pay rent, they are paying the landlord’s property taxes indirectly, because the property taxes are built into the rent.

    As to illegals on welfare, the solution is eliminate as much of the welfare state as possible. Aliens are already supposed to have sponsors who are supposed to support them if they fall on hard times. Restricting aliens access to welfare benefits is perfectly acceptable.

    I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about a year ago, which I will try to find if I have time, that reported that the health care system in Texas was booming. Physicians were migrating to Texas. Health care providers’ bottom lines were improving. Even services for the poor were improving. How was this possible, I thought, if Texas is on the border with all those illegals moving through? The answer was that Texas had passed tort law reforms that had enabled health care providers to get insurance at greatly improved rates. Texas didn’t have to deport the illegal aliens to ease the burden on its health care system. All it had to do was deport the trial lawyers.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    I agree with Bror’s point, however bluntly, presented about California’s problems. While immigrants may be exacerbating your problems, they aren’t causing them.

    California is going broke because it has an expensive welfare state and a love affair with social services and an entrenched class of public employees, all of which are bleeding you dry. The immigrants may accelerate that process, but you’d be hemoraging without them.

    Take the “free” education that immigrant kids get. It is supported by taxes, which illegal immigrants pay, both directly and indirectly. Everytime an immigrant buys something in a store, or fills up his gas tank or purchases alcohol or tobacco, that immigrant pays a tax. If they own property, which an amazing amount of illegals do, thy pay property taxes directly. But even if they only pay rent, they are paying the landlord’s property taxes indirectly, because the property taxes are built into the rent.

    As to illegals on welfare, the solution is eliminate as much of the welfare state as possible. Aliens are already supposed to have sponsors who are supposed to support them if they fall on hard times. Restricting aliens access to welfare benefits is perfectly acceptable.

    I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about a year ago, which I will try to find if I have time, that reported that the health care system in Texas was booming. Physicians were migrating to Texas. Health care providers’ bottom lines were improving. Even services for the poor were improving. How was this possible, I thought, if Texas is on the border with all those illegals moving through? The answer was that Texas had passed tort law reforms that had enabled health care providers to get insurance at greatly improved rates. Texas didn’t have to deport the illegal aliens to ease the burden on its health care system. All it had to do was deport the trial lawyers.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG said (@42), “Even Asians. Their prison numbers were too low to make the chart, but not zero.” Um, their numbers were not “too low to make the chart” — they just weren’t broken out. Some basic subtraction makes clear that there are some 119,500 male “American Indians, Alaska Natives, Asians, Native Hawaiians, and other Pacific Islanders, and persons identifying two or more races” in our jails, making them 6% of the male criminal population even though they comprise only 4% of the overall population.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG said (@42), “Even Asians. Their prison numbers were too low to make the chart, but not zero.” Um, their numbers were not “too low to make the chart” — they just weren’t broken out. Some basic subtraction makes clear that there are some 119,500 male “American Indians, Alaska Natives, Asians, Native Hawaiians, and other Pacific Islanders, and persons identifying two or more races” in our jails, making them 6% of the male criminal population even though they comprise only 4% of the overall population.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “American Indians, Alaska Natives, Asians, Native Hawaiians, and other Pacific Islanders, and persons identifying two or more races” in our jails, making them 6% of the male criminal population even though they comprise only 4% of the overall population.”

    Clearly American Indians and Alaska natives aren’t Asians.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “American Indians, Alaska Natives, Asians, Native Hawaiians, and other Pacific Islanders, and persons identifying two or more races” in our jails, making them 6% of the male criminal population even though they comprise only 4% of the overall population.”

    Clearly American Indians and Alaska natives aren’t Asians.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    My point is not that I am asking the citizens of this country to save us money that goes to help some immigrants. My point is that the citizens of this country need to defend themselves and families against crimes committed by illegal immigrants. I am just a wife with children begging her husband to defend her and her children against murderers, and criminals. Yet I sit here listening to those whose should defend their women and children arguing that we need to care about the needs of the foreigners more than the needs of our own families. I understand it is perhaps these days a quaint notion that the men of a nation should defend their own women and children, but hey, that is exactly as it should be. What good are these men who won’t defend us?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    My point is not that I am asking the citizens of this country to save us money that goes to help some immigrants. My point is that the citizens of this country need to defend themselves and families against crimes committed by illegal immigrants. I am just a wife with children begging her husband to defend her and her children against murderers, and criminals. Yet I sit here listening to those whose should defend their women and children arguing that we need to care about the needs of the foreigners more than the needs of our own families. I understand it is perhaps these days a quaint notion that the men of a nation should defend their own women and children, but hey, that is exactly as it should be. What good are these men who won’t defend us?

  • Grace

    SG @ 47 I concur with your comments regarding illegal immigrants. We live in California, the situation doesn’t manifest itself to anyone other than to those it imposes upon, which are millions who must pay the bills, endure the responsibility that isn’t ours, OR our neighboring states on the southern border.

    The financial heath responsibilities, that are laid upon the citizens, hospitals, doctors and those who administer aid, is beyond outrageous, expensive , and uncalled for, – then counter in education, endless hours spent by teachers to instruct students who do not speak English, however, needing the skills which the English language of the USA will allow them to learn and study other subjects – it’s never ending, nor is the escalating costs. I nor anyone in my state is responsible to contribute monies to those who break the law willfully to live in this country. Anyone who breaks the laws of this country is liable for punishment, but alas, illegal aliens are using whatever means to allow themselves and their children …. born in this country to illegal alien parents ….. full amnesty as they enjoy what isn’t theirs, nor have they rightfully, lawfully deserve anything other than to return to their country of origin, wait their turn and then come to the US, apply for citizenship. Anything else is inviting anyone, for any reason to break the laws of the United States of America to live and enjoy what we have without paying or waiting for the opportunity.

    SG, as you state in your comments, we who live here must be defended against those who might harm us. Illegal aliens are without dispute, residing in large numbers, within our prison system. That does not speak well for those who profess to protect the innocent children and weaker members of our state or country. I have no tolerance for those who break the law, they do not deserve our respect, financial help, or anything else that deem their right by force (as in lying to live in the USA) Millions of people have come to this country waiting for years, their names in line for the chance at a new life. Those who muscle their way between the honest peoples of the world, using force, gangs, violence, drug traffic have no place in this country – the only ANSWER is to send them back, make them wait their turn, and then…. if they have proven to be worthy through lawful means to RETURN to the United States of America.

  • Grace

    SG @ 47 I concur with your comments regarding illegal immigrants. We live in California, the situation doesn’t manifest itself to anyone other than to those it imposes upon, which are millions who must pay the bills, endure the responsibility that isn’t ours, OR our neighboring states on the southern border.

    The financial heath responsibilities, that are laid upon the citizens, hospitals, doctors and those who administer aid, is beyond outrageous, expensive , and uncalled for, – then counter in education, endless hours spent by teachers to instruct students who do not speak English, however, needing the skills which the English language of the USA will allow them to learn and study other subjects – it’s never ending, nor is the escalating costs. I nor anyone in my state is responsible to contribute monies to those who break the law willfully to live in this country. Anyone who breaks the laws of this country is liable for punishment, but alas, illegal aliens are using whatever means to allow themselves and their children …. born in this country to illegal alien parents ….. full amnesty as they enjoy what isn’t theirs, nor have they rightfully, lawfully deserve anything other than to return to their country of origin, wait their turn and then come to the US, apply for citizenship. Anything else is inviting anyone, for any reason to break the laws of the United States of America to live and enjoy what we have without paying or waiting for the opportunity.

    SG, as you state in your comments, we who live here must be defended against those who might harm us. Illegal aliens are without dispute, residing in large numbers, within our prison system. That does not speak well for those who profess to protect the innocent children and weaker members of our state or country. I have no tolerance for those who break the law, they do not deserve our respect, financial help, or anything else that deem their right by force (as in lying to live in the USA) Millions of people have come to this country waiting for years, their names in line for the chance at a new life. Those who muscle their way between the honest peoples of the world, using force, gangs, violence, drug traffic have no place in this country – the only ANSWER is to send them back, make them wait their turn, and then…. if they have proven to be worthy through lawful means to RETURN to the United States of America.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @Bror,
    “or perhaps it has to do with the fact that Canada’s God forsaken climate is barely suitable for the growing of wheat, which means opium, cocaine, and Marijuana worth smoking don’t do well there?
    But they did a pretty good job getting us booze during the prohibition, we can thank them for that.”

    Many would say Afghanistan is a wretched place for growing stuff, yet they manage to traffic in drugs and be thoroughly corrupt because of it. Meanwhile Switzerland managed quite well in an unenviable piece of real estate without degenerating into a narco state.

    “Bror – you have obviously forgot about BC. Massive pot operations there, and a lot of that goes to the States. There was this case that the RCMP clamped down on – the fellow who had a mail-order pot seed business from his home somewhere in BC. Apparently, the FBI got a little edgy…”

    Actually, I knew about BC’s illegal drug operations.

    The point isn’t that Canada or the US etc have no drug problems. The point is that it isn’t the defining characteristic. The Mexican government is a complete failure. They have no real handle on the situation. The Mexican government is totally corrupt. The people need to be defended against the criminals, and their government isn’t defending them.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @Bror,
    “or perhaps it has to do with the fact that Canada’s God forsaken climate is barely suitable for the growing of wheat, which means opium, cocaine, and Marijuana worth smoking don’t do well there?
    But they did a pretty good job getting us booze during the prohibition, we can thank them for that.”

    Many would say Afghanistan is a wretched place for growing stuff, yet they manage to traffic in drugs and be thoroughly corrupt because of it. Meanwhile Switzerland managed quite well in an unenviable piece of real estate without degenerating into a narco state.

    “Bror – you have obviously forgot about BC. Massive pot operations there, and a lot of that goes to the States. There was this case that the RCMP clamped down on – the fellow who had a mail-order pot seed business from his home somewhere in BC. Apparently, the FBI got a little edgy…”

    Actually, I knew about BC’s illegal drug operations.

    The point isn’t that Canada or the US etc have no drug problems. The point is that it isn’t the defining characteristic. The Mexican government is a complete failure. They have no real handle on the situation. The Mexican government is totally corrupt. The people need to be defended against the criminals, and their government isn’t defending them.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    “The point isn’t that Canada or the US etc have no drug problems. The point is that it isn’t the defining characteristic. The Mexican government is a complete failure. They have no real handle on the situation. The Mexican government is totally corrupt. The people need to be defended against the criminals, and their government isn’t defending them.”
    Sg,
    Not sure how this has become the defining characteristic of Mexico for you. Personally, when I think of Mexico I think of hard working, hard playing people I enjoy having as my neighbors. Margarita’s and Corona. when I think of the drug cartels, I’m saddened for the blight on that country we have helped to create with our backward laws.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    “The point isn’t that Canada or the US etc have no drug problems. The point is that it isn’t the defining characteristic. The Mexican government is a complete failure. They have no real handle on the situation. The Mexican government is totally corrupt. The people need to be defended against the criminals, and their government isn’t defending them.”
    Sg,
    Not sure how this has become the defining characteristic of Mexico for you. Personally, when I think of Mexico I think of hard working, hard playing people I enjoy having as my neighbors. Margarita’s and Corona. when I think of the drug cartels, I’m saddened for the blight on that country we have helped to create with our backward laws.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    When you go buy your produce at the store, or use a clean bathroom at McDonald’s, you get the pay off for paying for those bills you seem to resent so much.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    When you go buy your produce at the store, or use a clean bathroom at McDonald’s, you get the pay off for paying for those bills you seem to resent so much.

  • kerner

    sg:

    “What good aare these men who won’t defend us?”

    I have no problem defending you, or any other American, from criminals. But don’t ask me to defend you from the bus boy or the hotel maid who wants her children to grow up to be something better. You seem to forget that we are talking about two different groups of people here. Ordinary immigrants who want to work, and criminals. Want to weed out the criminals? I’m right there with you. Want to give a hard time to a bunch of people who just want their hard work to get them somewhere? You’re on your own, lady.

    ‘The Mexican government is totally corrupt. The people need defending against criminals, and their government isn’t defending them.”

    Right you are, which is why they want to come here when the government is NOT totally corrupt and they do have some protection. Which is the same reason the Irish and the Italians and the Jews came here. Of course, we didn’t create laws that keep ALL Irish and Italians and Jews out. And until the 1960′s there was no numerical limit on how many Mexicans could come here legally. Our laws need to change.

  • kerner

    sg:

    “What good aare these men who won’t defend us?”

    I have no problem defending you, or any other American, from criminals. But don’t ask me to defend you from the bus boy or the hotel maid who wants her children to grow up to be something better. You seem to forget that we are talking about two different groups of people here. Ordinary immigrants who want to work, and criminals. Want to weed out the criminals? I’m right there with you. Want to give a hard time to a bunch of people who just want their hard work to get them somewhere? You’re on your own, lady.

    ‘The Mexican government is totally corrupt. The people need defending against criminals, and their government isn’t defending them.”

    Right you are, which is why they want to come here when the government is NOT totally corrupt and they do have some protection. Which is the same reason the Irish and the Italians and the Jews came here. Of course, we didn’t create laws that keep ALL Irish and Italians and Jews out. And until the 1960′s there was no numerical limit on how many Mexicans could come here legally. Our laws need to change.

  • Grace

    Bror – 51

    “When you go buy your produce at the store, or use a clean bathroom at McDonald’s, you get the pay off for paying for those bills you seem to resent so much.”

    Read post #48 and then we can talk “clean bathroom” – there is no comparison, but in the ( Boar #50 Margarita’s and Corona ) you most likely see another picture, transformed into whatever you fantasize.

    I don’t know how many times you have been to Mexico, however, a dreamland – we live near the border, it is not the picture you paint, no matter how romantic you paint that mess. Margarita’s and Corona ………….. I have a whole new picture of you now!

  • Grace

    Bror – 51

    “When you go buy your produce at the store, or use a clean bathroom at McDonald’s, you get the pay off for paying for those bills you seem to resent so much.”

    Read post #48 and then we can talk “clean bathroom” – there is no comparison, but in the ( Boar #50 Margarita’s and Corona ) you most likely see another picture, transformed into whatever you fantasize.

    I don’t know how many times you have been to Mexico, however, a dreamland – we live near the border, it is not the picture you paint, no matter how romantic you paint that mess. Margarita’s and Corona ………….. I have a whole new picture of you now!

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Kerner,
    right you are.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Kerner,
    right you are.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 52 – “Right you are, which is why they want to come here when the government is NOT totally corrupt and they do have some protection. Which is the same reason the Irish and the Italians and the Jews came here. Of course, we didn’t create laws that keep ALL Irish and Italians and Jews out. “

    Yes – and the Germans, Swiss, British and Dutch - all legal!

    Think LEGALLY entering this country, not coming here, lying non-stop.

    Unless you live in one of these neighboring states, you haven’t one single clue regarding drugs and gangs. It has been dangerous for children attending school, ANYWHERE, or simply skate boarding on their street, riding bikes, throwing baskets.

    Have your children been threatened? Where we live in the neighbor state, the illegal aliens come into the areas where they don’t live, sitting on the grass in the gardens, hiding in the foilage next to our homes in groups of large older teens. The reason we know they are there you can hear them talking. The police come immediately, however the chance of recrimination is always a threat. It’s a no win!

  • Grace

    Kerner – 52 – “Right you are, which is why they want to come here when the government is NOT totally corrupt and they do have some protection. Which is the same reason the Irish and the Italians and the Jews came here. Of course, we didn’t create laws that keep ALL Irish and Italians and Jews out. “

    Yes – and the Germans, Swiss, British and Dutch - all legal!

    Think LEGALLY entering this country, not coming here, lying non-stop.

    Unless you live in one of these neighboring states, you haven’t one single clue regarding drugs and gangs. It has been dangerous for children attending school, ANYWHERE, or simply skate boarding on their street, riding bikes, throwing baskets.

    Have your children been threatened? Where we live in the neighbor state, the illegal aliens come into the areas where they don’t live, sitting on the grass in the gardens, hiding in the foilage next to our homes in groups of large older teens. The reason we know they are there you can hear them talking. The police come immediately, however the chance of recrimination is always a threat. It’s a no win!

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    I’ve been to Mexico a few times. And have lived in California, among numerous other states and countries.
    I went to a high school that was riddled with Mexican gangs, yet I noticed the white kids had theirs too. In fact I regretfully imbibed in the vitriol and contempt of the Mexican immigrants for a while. But that gave me a meaner drunk than the coronas and margaritas ever have. And after sobering up with not a few Margarita’s and Corona’s the end of a hard days work with many a Mexican, serving with these immigrants, and children of immigrants who love our country sometimes more than I do, despite citizens like you, I’ve come to realize that the problem lies elsewhere and isn’t going to be fixed with more of the same that has created the problem to begin with.
    I’ve known more of them to be honest and hard working than anything else. This despite jail Bible study, where I happen to see a lot of white people Sg.
    But yes Grace, think Margaritas and Coronas, Scotch and Cigars, and you’ll get a pretty good picture of me, the boar in your vineyard.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    I’ve been to Mexico a few times. And have lived in California, among numerous other states and countries.
    I went to a high school that was riddled with Mexican gangs, yet I noticed the white kids had theirs too. In fact I regretfully imbibed in the vitriol and contempt of the Mexican immigrants for a while. But that gave me a meaner drunk than the coronas and margaritas ever have. And after sobering up with not a few Margarita’s and Corona’s the end of a hard days work with many a Mexican, serving with these immigrants, and children of immigrants who love our country sometimes more than I do, despite citizens like you, I’ve come to realize that the problem lies elsewhere and isn’t going to be fixed with more of the same that has created the problem to begin with.
    I’ve known more of them to be honest and hard working than anything else. This despite jail Bible study, where I happen to see a lot of white people Sg.
    But yes Grace, think Margaritas and Coronas, Scotch and Cigars, and you’ll get a pretty good picture of me, the boar in your vineyard.

  • Grace

    Boar – 56 – “I’ve been to Mexico a few times. And have lived in California, among numerous other states and countries.”

    “a few times” – that is just what I thought – you don’t understand the problem – not a clue.

    Have you owned a business in CA, ? – have you lived here the majority of your life ? – were you educated in CA ? I can answer yes to all of those questions.

    I’ve had south of the border friends, from different countries – they are good people. We love to vacation in Guatemala, a very different country then Mexico. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between those who come here legally and those who lie, cheat and steal to get here, and continue the same lifestyle after they arrive.

    The white and black gangs in California don’t hold a candle to those in Mexican gangs. Gangs of any ethnic group are bad, however the Mexican gangs are much worse. The ratio of Mexican gang members in CA prisons is much higher than black or white. You either are blind to these facts or you can’t face the problem as it actually is.

  • Grace

    Boar – 56 – “I’ve been to Mexico a few times. And have lived in California, among numerous other states and countries.”

    “a few times” – that is just what I thought – you don’t understand the problem – not a clue.

    Have you owned a business in CA, ? – have you lived here the majority of your life ? – were you educated in CA ? I can answer yes to all of those questions.

    I’ve had south of the border friends, from different countries – they are good people. We love to vacation in Guatemala, a very different country then Mexico. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between those who come here legally and those who lie, cheat and steal to get here, and continue the same lifestyle after they arrive.

    The white and black gangs in California don’t hold a candle to those in Mexican gangs. Gangs of any ethnic group are bad, however the Mexican gangs are much worse. The ratio of Mexican gang members in CA prisons is much higher than black or white. You either are blind to these facts or you can’t face the problem as it actually is.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    As a matter of fact, as I said I’ve lived in California. The problem I have with California, after having gone to Highschool there, and twice being jumped by mexican gangs, and returning for college. Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem. Don’t assume to know what I know, or what my experience in life has been.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    As a matter of fact, as I said I’ve lived in California. The problem I have with California, after having gone to Highschool there, and twice being jumped by mexican gangs, and returning for college. Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem. Don’t assume to know what I know, or what my experience in life has been.

  • Grace

    Bror – 56 – “But yes Grace, think Margaritas and Coronas, Scotch and Cigars, and you’ll get a pretty good picture of me, the boar in your vineyard.”

    Yes, I see the picture, but not in my garden!

    You can be anything you want on the internet!

  • Grace

    Bror – 56 – “But yes Grace, think Margaritas and Coronas, Scotch and Cigars, and you’ll get a pretty good picture of me, the boar in your vineyard.”

    Yes, I see the picture, but not in my garden!

    You can be anything you want on the internet!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The problem I have with California, after having gone to Highschool there, and twice being jumped by mexican gangs, and returning for college. Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem. Don’t assume to know what I know, or what my experience in life has been.”

    As a law abiding woman with children, this is the attitude that scares me the most. We the wives and mothers who want safety for our own children are despised as self righteous while those obligated to defend us sympathize with violent abusive criminals who attack us. Why can’t these men hold evil doers accountable for their own actions rather than blame innocent women for creating the problems?

    Unbelievable. We are doomed. Our men have forsaken us.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The problem I have with California, after having gone to Highschool there, and twice being jumped by mexican gangs, and returning for college. Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem. Don’t assume to know what I know, or what my experience in life has been.”

    As a law abiding woman with children, this is the attitude that scares me the most. We the wives and mothers who want safety for our own children are despised as self righteous while those obligated to defend us sympathize with violent abusive criminals who attack us. Why can’t these men hold evil doers accountable for their own actions rather than blame innocent women for creating the problems?

    Unbelievable. We are doomed. Our men have forsaken us.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “When you go buy your produce at the store, or use a clean bathroom at McDonald’s, you get the pay off for paying for those bills you seem to resent so much.”

    Promoting exploitation now?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “When you go buy your produce at the store, or use a clean bathroom at McDonald’s, you get the pay off for paying for those bills you seem to resent so much.”

    Promoting exploitation now?

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    Yes you have been so abandoned. I won’t even start comparing the spoiled white middle class whiny california woman, with their hispanic counterpart.
    I’ll just say it isn’t violent criminals I sympathize with. It is the hard working immigarnt that cleanse the houses, and mows the lawns while tending to the gardens of the spoiled whiny midde class california woman who in turn demonizws them for wanting to work and raise theeir children in peace that I sympathize with.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    Yes you have been so abandoned. I won’t even start comparing the spoiled white middle class whiny california woman, with their hispanic counterpart.
    I’ll just say it isn’t violent criminals I sympathize with. It is the hard working immigarnt that cleanse the houses, and mows the lawns while tending to the gardens of the spoiled whiny midde class california woman who in turn demonizws them for wanting to work and raise theeir children in peace that I sympathize with.

  • Grace

    Bror – 58 ” Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem. ” –

    Bror, nothing you write would surprise me. Yes I am a Born Again Believer, and grateful for the grace of God, having faith in Him who died for me.

    Those who lie, cheat, steal, have no right to live in the USA as illegal aliens, only because they feel it is their right … for any reason. These are the very people who “actually create and exacerbate the problem.” However, you aren’t able to comprehend the dangerous behavior of those who have not one jingle of conscience when they break the law … they are criminals, but instead YOU embrace their deeds as justified.

  • Grace

    Bror – 58 ” Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem. ” –

    Bror, nothing you write would surprise me. Yes I am a Born Again Believer, and grateful for the grace of God, having faith in Him who died for me.

    Those who lie, cheat, steal, have no right to live in the USA as illegal aliens, only because they feel it is their right … for any reason. These are the very people who “actually create and exacerbate the problem.” However, you aren’t able to comprehend the dangerous behavior of those who have not one jingle of conscience when they break the law … they are criminals, but instead YOU embrace their deeds as justified.

  • Grace

    Bror – 62 - “Yes you have been so abandoned. I won’t even start comparing the spoiled white middle class whiny california woman, with their hispanic counterpart.”

    Bror, go back and read your entire post at #62 – You are shooting from the hip, maybe it’s all that hot “air” you breath in and torch back, not knowing of what you speak.

    I have some ‘news’ for you. Many, many people have – let their illegal alien house cleaning people and gardeners GO. That is a FACT. Since this problem has escalated, it has finally dawned on the vast majority that letting them continue to work in or on their property is not prudent. One thing that escapes many of you is this: The illegals have teens and husbands who are not one beat away from using their wives and mothers. Don’t forget many of these people have access to the residences they clean, codes to the garages, codes to the gates of gated communities. Abiding by the law we also have added SAFETY to our lives. We don’t need to enable those who are illegal or those who could harm us – COMPREHEND ? Maybe, maybe not.

    What we see now is many more people who ARE LEGAL, be that Anglo or Hispanic, working in the communities.

  • Grace

    Bror – 62 - “Yes you have been so abandoned. I won’t even start comparing the spoiled white middle class whiny california woman, with their hispanic counterpart.”

    Bror, go back and read your entire post at #62 – You are shooting from the hip, maybe it’s all that hot “air” you breath in and torch back, not knowing of what you speak.

    I have some ‘news’ for you. Many, many people have – let their illegal alien house cleaning people and gardeners GO. That is a FACT. Since this problem has escalated, it has finally dawned on the vast majority that letting them continue to work in or on their property is not prudent. One thing that escapes many of you is this: The illegals have teens and husbands who are not one beat away from using their wives and mothers. Don’t forget many of these people have access to the residences they clean, codes to the garages, codes to the gates of gated communities. Abiding by the law we also have added SAFETY to our lives. We don’t need to enable those who are illegal or those who could harm us – COMPREHEND ? Maybe, maybe not.

    What we see now is many more people who ARE LEGAL, be that Anglo or Hispanic, working in the communities.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It is the hard working immigarnt that cleanse the houses, and mows the lawns while tending to the gardens of the spoiled whiny midde class california woman who in turn demonizws them for wanting to work and raise theeir children in peace that I sympathize with.”

    Bror, I posted the Dept of Justice statistics. The data don’t lie. These people are not all just innocent hard working people. Obviously many are and we all sympathize with that which is why we are fine with allowing immigration of carefully screened immigrants with no criminal background.

    Plenty of white middle class families mow their own lawns, clean their own toilets and take care of their own kids. These are the ones who don’t live in gated communities to protect them from crime and don’t have gardeners, housekeepers, nannies and can’t afford private schools. They are the ones who suffer under the policies of the those spoiled ones who wink at illegal immigration while exploiting immigrants. Not all law abiding citizens can afford to employ illegals to do their dirty work and pass the real costs on to others. However, they do pay the taxes and suffer the crime so the spoiled ones can exploit the cheap labor for their fancy lifestyles.

    I think you are incorrect in lumping together all Americans who want safety for their children in with those spoiled ones who exploit immigrants. These are two different groups.

    One has the means to exploit while insulating themselves. The other does not.

    It is not just whites who suffer the crime anyway. Minorities are even more likely to be victimized. So even after the law abiding immigrants get out of Mexico, they still suffer here from the criminals they sought to escape.

    This is just another iteration of the elites abusing the middle class and poor. The middle class suffer taxes and crime. The poor are exploited and suffer even more crime. Meanwhile the elites have their high profits, cheap labor, and fancy lifestyles in gated communities all on the backs of others.

    Finally, I truly feel you are wrong to blame those who just want safety in their communities as somehow being the instigators of this injustice.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It is the hard working immigarnt that cleanse the houses, and mows the lawns while tending to the gardens of the spoiled whiny midde class california woman who in turn demonizws them for wanting to work and raise theeir children in peace that I sympathize with.”

    Bror, I posted the Dept of Justice statistics. The data don’t lie. These people are not all just innocent hard working people. Obviously many are and we all sympathize with that which is why we are fine with allowing immigration of carefully screened immigrants with no criminal background.

    Plenty of white middle class families mow their own lawns, clean their own toilets and take care of their own kids. These are the ones who don’t live in gated communities to protect them from crime and don’t have gardeners, housekeepers, nannies and can’t afford private schools. They are the ones who suffer under the policies of the those spoiled ones who wink at illegal immigration while exploiting immigrants. Not all law abiding citizens can afford to employ illegals to do their dirty work and pass the real costs on to others. However, they do pay the taxes and suffer the crime so the spoiled ones can exploit the cheap labor for their fancy lifestyles.

    I think you are incorrect in lumping together all Americans who want safety for their children in with those spoiled ones who exploit immigrants. These are two different groups.

    One has the means to exploit while insulating themselves. The other does not.

    It is not just whites who suffer the crime anyway. Minorities are even more likely to be victimized. So even after the law abiding immigrants get out of Mexico, they still suffer here from the criminals they sought to escape.

    This is just another iteration of the elites abusing the middle class and poor. The middle class suffer taxes and crime. The poor are exploited and suffer even more crime. Meanwhile the elites have their high profits, cheap labor, and fancy lifestyles in gated communities all on the backs of others.

    Finally, I truly feel you are wrong to blame those who just want safety in their communities as somehow being the instigators of this injustice.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Really sg,
    I just thought it would be fun to join in withe indescriminant lumping of people together with unflattering stereotypes. Checking out now. Be back sunday or monday.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Really sg,
    I just thought it would be fun to join in withe indescriminant lumping of people together with unflattering stereotypes. Checking out now. Be back sunday or monday.

  • Grace

    SG – 65 – “Plenty of white middle class families mow their own lawns, clean their own toilets and take care of their own kids. These are the ones who don’t live in gated communities to protect them from crime and don’t have gardeners, housekeepers, nannies and can’t afford private schools. They are the ones who suffer under the policies of the those spoiled ones who wink at illegal immigration while exploiting immigrants. Not all law abiding citizens can afford to employ illegals to do their dirty work and pass the real costs on to others. However, they do pay the taxes and suffer the crime so the spoiled ones can exploit the cheap labor for their fancy lifestyles.”

    Before you get to carried away blasting what you called “those spoiled ones” – because they can afford a housekeeper twice or four times a month, a gardener to come once a week — think about these people as they really are – Business owners or executives who employ the very people who mock them because someone mows their lawn and trims their bushes, etc. They don’t have the time to take care of their gardening, they are to busy taking care of business, often 10 plus hours a day, and sometimes on Saturday. Certainly you don’t begrudge these people some spare time to spend with their families? For many of these people, it isn’t as you frame it “so the spoiled ones can exploit the cheap labor for their fancy lifestyles.” – many of these women are too busy raising money for the local hospital, OR working within the church community, teaching, and Bible studies –

    Before you JUDGE the ones who pay 95% of the taxes in this country, think about what they might really be doing.

    Don’t confuse the ones you see who’s faces grace the covers of magazines, star in film, who’s names are linked with all sorts of nonsense, are not the majority of hard working people who really do try and make this country better, but most of all love the LORD with all their heart, waking early in the morning to start the day with Bible study and prayer as they face the challenges in today’s world.

  • Grace

    SG – 65 – “Plenty of white middle class families mow their own lawns, clean their own toilets and take care of their own kids. These are the ones who don’t live in gated communities to protect them from crime and don’t have gardeners, housekeepers, nannies and can’t afford private schools. They are the ones who suffer under the policies of the those spoiled ones who wink at illegal immigration while exploiting immigrants. Not all law abiding citizens can afford to employ illegals to do their dirty work and pass the real costs on to others. However, they do pay the taxes and suffer the crime so the spoiled ones can exploit the cheap labor for their fancy lifestyles.”

    Before you get to carried away blasting what you called “those spoiled ones” – because they can afford a housekeeper twice or four times a month, a gardener to come once a week — think about these people as they really are – Business owners or executives who employ the very people who mock them because someone mows their lawn and trims their bushes, etc. They don’t have the time to take care of their gardening, they are to busy taking care of business, often 10 plus hours a day, and sometimes on Saturday. Certainly you don’t begrudge these people some spare time to spend with their families? For many of these people, it isn’t as you frame it “so the spoiled ones can exploit the cheap labor for their fancy lifestyles.” – many of these women are too busy raising money for the local hospital, OR working within the church community, teaching, and Bible studies –

    Before you JUDGE the ones who pay 95% of the taxes in this country, think about what they might really be doing.

    Don’t confuse the ones you see who’s faces grace the covers of magazines, star in film, who’s names are linked with all sorts of nonsense, are not the majority of hard working people who really do try and make this country better, but most of all love the LORD with all their heart, waking early in the morning to start the day with Bible study and prayer as they face the challenges in today’s world.

  • Grace

    Bror – 66 –
    “I just thought it would be fun to join in withe indescriminant lumping of people together with unflattering stereotypes. Checking out now. Be back sunday or monday.”

    NAY,….. now you’re back-peddling – what IS fun – watching you scramble for an excuse, which you don’t have.

    What a toot!

  • Grace

    Bror – 66 –
    “I just thought it would be fun to join in withe indescriminant lumping of people together with unflattering stereotypes. Checking out now. Be back sunday or monday.”

    NAY,….. now you’re back-peddling – what IS fun – watching you scramble for an excuse, which you don’t have.

    What a toot!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Before you get to carried away blasting what you called “those spoiled ones” – ”

    Let me clarify. I criticize those who support and defend those who come in illegally. Even some folks who may employ yard help etc are actually voting for and expecting enforcement of our immigration laws. I criticize the open borders crowd who don’t care about the proper enforcement of rule of law. These include the likes of Bush and those before him, not just folks associated with the current administration. This is in no way recent or somehow Obama’s fault. This is the long term failure of many.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Before you get to carried away blasting what you called “those spoiled ones” – ”

    Let me clarify. I criticize those who support and defend those who come in illegally. Even some folks who may employ yard help etc are actually voting for and expecting enforcement of our immigration laws. I criticize the open borders crowd who don’t care about the proper enforcement of rule of law. These include the likes of Bush and those before him, not just folks associated with the current administration. This is in no way recent or somehow Obama’s fault. This is the long term failure of many.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @bror

    “unflattering stereotypes”

    Don’t you think most stereotypes have some basis in reality even though their overuse is unfair to many?

    I mean, stereotypes have to come from somewhere. They aren’t pure fiction, rather exaggeration and overgeneralization.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @bror

    “unflattering stereotypes”

    Don’t you think most stereotypes have some basis in reality even though their overuse is unfair to many?

    I mean, stereotypes have to come from somewhere. They aren’t pure fiction, rather exaggeration and overgeneralization.

  • Grace

    Sg – 69 – “Let me clarify.”

    Read your post 65 and the one you just posted 69 – you’re singing a different tune now.

    I don’t know where you live, but unless you live in the southwest where this is an everyday occurrence, especially in California, .. I doubt seriously your understanding the situation, or who are against illegal aliens being given amnesty, ETC, ETC.

  • Grace

    Sg – 69 – “Let me clarify.”

    Read your post 65 and the one you just posted 69 – you’re singing a different tune now.

    I don’t know where you live, but unless you live in the southwest where this is an everyday occurrence, especially in California, .. I doubt seriously your understanding the situation, or who are against illegal aliens being given amnesty, ETC, ETC.

  • kerner

    Grace @55

    Every time someone tells me that Mexicans should just enter legally like people did in the good old days, I have to wonder whether they are being dishonest.

    The reason those people entered legally in the past, is because our laws allowed legal immigration for them at that time.

    Check the visa bulletins. There are no work based visas available for a Mexican who doesn’t have a post-graduate degree. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada!!! What this means is (say it with me, Grace)

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEGAL WAY FOR ALMOST ALL MEXICANS TO ENTER THE USA LEGALLY TO WORK!!!

    Every time you say “well they should just enter legally”, you are perpetuating a lie.

  • kerner

    Grace @55

    Every time someone tells me that Mexicans should just enter legally like people did in the good old days, I have to wonder whether they are being dishonest.

    The reason those people entered legally in the past, is because our laws allowed legal immigration for them at that time.

    Check the visa bulletins. There are no work based visas available for a Mexican who doesn’t have a post-graduate degree. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada!!! What this means is (say it with me, Grace)

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LEGAL WAY FOR ALMOST ALL MEXICANS TO ENTER THE USA LEGALLY TO WORK!!!

    Every time you say “well they should just enter legally”, you are perpetuating a lie.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 72 – “The reason those people entered legally in the past, is because our laws allowed legal immigration for them at that time.”

    You are right – years ago when this country had fewer people, allowing vast amounts of people to immigrate to the US wasn’t a problem – that is not the case any longer. People from many countries around the world are waiting for their turn

    When the ships came in to Ellis Island, the immigrants were made to stay, for a period of time, being checked out for disease, etc. There were those who were sent back after finding they had disease which could be communicated causing blindness to name just one. There were other reasons as well.

    The US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border – They have taken advantage of their welcome, but helping many of their illegal relatives and friends to come to this country. Until this situation is resolved, I see NO REASON to allow anyone to immigrate legally to the US from below southern border.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 72 – “The reason those people entered legally in the past, is because our laws allowed legal immigration for them at that time.”

    You are right – years ago when this country had fewer people, allowing vast amounts of people to immigrate to the US wasn’t a problem – that is not the case any longer. People from many countries around the world are waiting for their turn

    When the ships came in to Ellis Island, the immigrants were made to stay, for a period of time, being checked out for disease, etc. There were those who were sent back after finding they had disease which could be communicated causing blindness to name just one. There were other reasons as well.

    The US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border – They have taken advantage of their welcome, but helping many of their illegal relatives and friends to come to this country. Until this situation is resolved, I see NO REASON to allow anyone to immigrate legally to the US from below southern border.

  • Grace

    Please excuse #73 – error in typing and grammar.

  • Grace

    Please excuse #73 – error in typing and grammar.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace shouted (@73), “The US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border.” On what basis do you make this claim?

    In the meantime, I suggest you make sure that all the food you purchase has had no contact with illegal immigrants. Otherwise, you would be supporting them financially and encouraging them to come here, which you obviously do not want to do.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace shouted (@73), “The US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border.” On what basis do you make this claim?

    In the meantime, I suggest you make sure that all the food you purchase has had no contact with illegal immigrants. Otherwise, you would be supporting them financially and encouraging them to come here, which you obviously do not want to do.

  • Grace

    Todd – 75 – “In the meantime, I suggest you make sure that all the food you purchase has had no contact with illegal immigrants. Otherwise, you would be supporting them financially and encouraging them to come here, which you obviously do not want to do.”

    That is a foolish statement – there are many legal workers who pick crops – not everyone is an illegal alien.

    It would be interesting to know where some of you live – it’s none of my business, but would most likely shed much light as to your stance on illegal aliens.

  • Grace

    Todd – 75 – “In the meantime, I suggest you make sure that all the food you purchase has had no contact with illegal immigrants. Otherwise, you would be supporting them financially and encouraging them to come here, which you obviously do not want to do.”

    That is a foolish statement – there are many legal workers who pick crops – not everyone is an illegal alien.

    It would be interesting to know where some of you live – it’s none of my business, but would most likely shed much light as to your stance on illegal aliens.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Hello? Grace? What makes you say (@73) “the US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”?

    And yes, claiming that there are no legal crop workers would be a “foolish statement” … if I had said it. What I actually said was “I suggest you make sure that all the food you purchase has had no contact with illegal immigrants.” Given your feelings on the matter, it would be nothing short of hypocritical for you not to ensure that your own life was not being sustained (even in part) by illegal immigrants (whether picking, processing, cooking, or even cleaning the plates on which you eat).

    And since you seem to think that the quality of an argument depends on where it’s made from, I spent the first half of my life in Texas (#3 in per-capita illegal immigrants, it is estimated), and I now live in Oregon (#11). Your claims, in general, ring false to me. As they might to Bror, who lives in Utah (#7).

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Hello? Grace? What makes you say (@73) “the US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”?

    And yes, claiming that there are no legal crop workers would be a “foolish statement” … if I had said it. What I actually said was “I suggest you make sure that all the food you purchase has had no contact with illegal immigrants.” Given your feelings on the matter, it would be nothing short of hypocritical for you not to ensure that your own life was not being sustained (even in part) by illegal immigrants (whether picking, processing, cooking, or even cleaning the plates on which you eat).

    And since you seem to think that the quality of an argument depends on where it’s made from, I spent the first half of my life in Texas (#3 in per-capita illegal immigrants, it is estimated), and I now live in Oregon (#11). Your claims, in general, ring false to me. As they might to Bror, who lives in Utah (#7).

  • Louis

    Grace – actually no: In a recent experiment in California at a recruiting office, with many, many jobless applicants, they could not get a single, mind you, single applicant for a picking position.

    Meanwhile, drop the hysteria. It is unbecoming – I mean, sg largely agrees with you, and you nearly chewed her head off.

  • Louis

    Grace – actually no: In a recent experiment in California at a recruiting office, with many, many jobless applicants, they could not get a single, mind you, single applicant for a picking position.

    Meanwhile, drop the hysteria. It is unbecoming – I mean, sg largely agrees with you, and you nearly chewed her head off.

  • Grace

    I find it strange so many of you, are pro illegal aliens, and the amnesty many wish to put into law…. considering the financial crisis this country is in, lack of jobs, people losing their homes, taking money from savings to ‘make it’ until they can find a new position – and some of you are pro south of the border immigration.

    Include within the mix, the health bill, more funds being bandied about by all the libs to put a plaster cast on America’s financial burden – It just might be a broken mess that can’t be remedied, have any of you given that some serious thought?

  • Grace

    I find it strange so many of you, are pro illegal aliens, and the amnesty many wish to put into law…. considering the financial crisis this country is in, lack of jobs, people losing their homes, taking money from savings to ‘make it’ until they can find a new position – and some of you are pro south of the border immigration.

    Include within the mix, the health bill, more funds being bandied about by all the libs to put a plaster cast on America’s financial burden – It just might be a broken mess that can’t be remedied, have any of you given that some serious thought?

  • Grace

    Todd – 77 – “And since you seem to think that the quality of an argument depends on where it’s made from, I spent the first half of my life in Texas (#3 in per-capita illegal immigrants, it is estimated), and I now live in Oregon (#11). ”

    It does matter where an argument is made from – I don’t know how long you have been away from the southwest. As you state living now in Oregon, …. they certainly don’t view this problem as those of us in CA – it’s changed drastically in just the past 10 years.

    I’m sure you’ve heard all the arguments made by Canadians regarding the US, … their expertise on nearly every economic, medical, education issue – yet they don’t live here. They may have vacationed in our country, but living here is very different then 2 weeks at Disneyland, the beach, LA and San Francisco.

  • Grace

    Todd – 77 – “And since you seem to think that the quality of an argument depends on where it’s made from, I spent the first half of my life in Texas (#3 in per-capita illegal immigrants, it is estimated), and I now live in Oregon (#11). ”

    It does matter where an argument is made from – I don’t know how long you have been away from the southwest. As you state living now in Oregon, …. they certainly don’t view this problem as those of us in CA – it’s changed drastically in just the past 10 years.

    I’m sure you’ve heard all the arguments made by Canadians regarding the US, … their expertise on nearly every economic, medical, education issue – yet they don’t live here. They may have vacationed in our country, but living here is very different then 2 weeks at Disneyland, the beach, LA and San Francisco.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Hello? Grace? What makes you say (@73) “the US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Hello? Grace? What makes you say (@73) “the US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, Grace (@80), by your own reasoning, you should probably refrain from telling me how things are in Oregon and how “they … view this problem.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, Grace (@80), by your own reasoning, you should probably refrain from telling me how things are in Oregon and how “they … view this problem.”

  • Louis

    Grace – nobody here, as far as I’m aware, is for illegal immigration. What they are saying is that one cannot be draconian, there are harsh economic realities, and there are also huminatarian concerns. You however, are getting shriller by the minute. Shrillness is not an asset in a debate.

    But maybe I’m just wrong, after all, I do live north of the 49th…. and I’m a (legal) immigrant too. As an asie though, for fun I did the following Civics test online – I did not cheat, and I’ve never made any of the subjects concerned my field of study: http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/resources/quiz.aspx

    I got 84.4%, well above the average American’s 49%, or College educator’s 55%.

    So maybe I am allowed to make some minor comments on the American system, seeing that I know significantly more about your country than your average compatriot!

  • Louis

    Grace – nobody here, as far as I’m aware, is for illegal immigration. What they are saying is that one cannot be draconian, there are harsh economic realities, and there are also huminatarian concerns. You however, are getting shriller by the minute. Shrillness is not an asset in a debate.

    But maybe I’m just wrong, after all, I do live north of the 49th…. and I’m a (legal) immigrant too. As an asie though, for fun I did the following Civics test online – I did not cheat, and I’ve never made any of the subjects concerned my field of study: http://www.americancivicliteracy.org/resources/quiz.aspx

    I got 84.4%, well above the average American’s 49%, or College educator’s 55%.

    So maybe I am allowed to make some minor comments on the American system, seeing that I know significantly more about your country than your average compatriot!

  • Grace

    Todd – 81 – “Hello? Grace? What makes you say (@73) “the US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”?”

    HELLO Todd – I’ve already answered that question more than once on posts above.

  • Grace

    Todd – 81 – “Hello? Grace? What makes you say (@73) “the US is over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”?”

    HELLO Todd – I’ve already answered that question more than once on posts above.

  • Grace

    Louis – 83

    It sounds as if you’re brilliant – I’ll try not to miss any of your posts.

  • Grace

    Louis – 83

    It sounds as if you’re brilliant – I’ll try not to miss any of your posts.

  • Louis

    Grace – sarcasm can be funny. You, however, have not mastered that art yet. Back to the drawingboard….

  • Louis

    Grace – sarcasm can be funny. You, however, have not mastered that art yet. Back to the drawingboard….

  • Grace

    Louis, it wasn’t supposed to be funny -

  • Grace

    Louis, it wasn’t supposed to be funny -

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@84) said, “I’ve already answered that question more than once on posts above.” My bad. Perhaps it was hiding among all the straw men. But I still can’t find it.

    Because, see, in order to claim that the US is “over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”, you’d have to make a claim for what the metric is for “saturation”, as well as where the line is drawn as to what is too much. And then you’d have to establish that we’d crossed that line.

    If you choose to point to any national metric in judging “saturation”, please make sure to break out only the parts affected by immigration from “below the southern border”, as I know you wouldn’t want to implicate non-Hispanic immigrants in broad trends.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@84) said, “I’ve already answered that question more than once on posts above.” My bad. Perhaps it was hiding among all the straw men. But I still can’t find it.

    Because, see, in order to claim that the US is “over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”, you’d have to make a claim for what the metric is for “saturation”, as well as where the line is drawn as to what is too much. And then you’d have to establish that we’d crossed that line.

    If you choose to point to any national metric in judging “saturation”, please make sure to break out only the parts affected by immigration from “below the southern border”, as I know you wouldn’t want to implicate non-Hispanic immigrants in broad trends.

  • Grace

    Todd – 88

    Saturation – California

    Illegal Immigrants in California and Los Angeles County

    According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Office of Immigration Statistics (DHS), an
    estimated 2,600,000 illegal immigrants resided in California in 2009, compared to 1.5 million in 1990 and
    2.5 million in 2000. This number represents about 25 percent of the entire estimated illegal immigrant
    population in the United States
    (10.8 million in 2009). This estimate puts the percentage of California’s
    population that are illegal immigrants to be about 6.8 percent, with a majority being from Mexico. Across the
    entire United States, an estimated 6.7 million illegal immigrants were from Mexico, up from 4.7 million in 2000.

    That’s a whole lot of “metric” Todd

  • Grace

    Todd – 88

    Saturation – California

    Illegal Immigrants in California and Los Angeles County

    According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Office of Immigration Statistics (DHS), an
    estimated 2,600,000 illegal immigrants resided in California in 2009, compared to 1.5 million in 1990 and
    2.5 million in 2000. This number represents about 25 percent of the entire estimated illegal immigrant
    population in the United States
    (10.8 million in 2009). This estimate puts the percentage of California’s
    population that are illegal immigrants to be about 6.8 percent, with a majority being from Mexico. Across the
    entire United States, an estimated 6.7 million illegal immigrants were from Mexico, up from 4.7 million in 2000.

    That’s a whole lot of “metric” Todd

  • Grace

    Sorry – for some reason the above printed out badly – I’m not sure why.

  • Grace

    Sorry – for some reason the above printed out badly – I’m not sure why.

  • Grace

    JB – 89 – “I’m siding – hands down – with tODD, Louis, Bror, and kerner.”

    You can side with anyone you like – There will always be a people who disagree, on any given subject, with or without information. One need only look back at the majority who vowed that Obama was the best individual running – well…….. we all know where that’s taken us. I know many disagreed with me, they now wish they hadn’t voted for him, but it’s too late.

    I believe I’m right regarding illegal aliens – I do believe there might be some way in which those who want to give .. could build, train and run health care centers below the border. Using the citizens of the country as employees – solving two problems to some degree, ….. employment and health care, it wouldn’t be perfect, but it would help.

    I care about the people who want to come to this country, however, I understand how our health care, education, schools and welfare cannot bear the cost – I speak for CA, that’s where I live.

    As you stated above “I’m a So. AZ native and now live 40 miles from the US Mex border.” That’s great, I’m sure you know far more about AZ then I do.

    I live in CA. My profession and background has been intertwined within the problems of illegal aliens in different ways.

  • Grace

    JB – 89 – “I’m siding – hands down – with tODD, Louis, Bror, and kerner.”

    You can side with anyone you like – There will always be a people who disagree, on any given subject, with or without information. One need only look back at the majority who vowed that Obama was the best individual running – well…….. we all know where that’s taken us. I know many disagreed with me, they now wish they hadn’t voted for him, but it’s too late.

    I believe I’m right regarding illegal aliens – I do believe there might be some way in which those who want to give .. could build, train and run health care centers below the border. Using the citizens of the country as employees – solving two problems to some degree, ….. employment and health care, it wouldn’t be perfect, but it would help.

    I care about the people who want to come to this country, however, I understand how our health care, education, schools and welfare cannot bear the cost – I speak for CA, that’s where I live.

    As you stated above “I’m a So. AZ native and now live 40 miles from the US Mex border.” That’s great, I’m sure you know far more about AZ then I do.

    I live in CA. My profession and background has been intertwined within the problems of illegal aliens in different ways.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Because, see, in order to claim that the US is “over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”, you’d have to make a claim for what the metric is for “saturation”, as well as where the line is drawn as to what is too much. And then you’d have to establish that we’d crossed that line.”

    Talk about impossible standard of proof.

    Go ahead. Make the argument that the US needs to import uneducated and only marginally educable people who also have very high crime rates and very high rates of social pathology like illegitimacy. Humane incarceration is very expensive.

    LA school system spends $27k per student per year for a graduation rate of 44%. I am not even complaining of the cost here. If they can’t learn with expenditures like that, I mean come on.

    Here is a study that repeatedly makes the point of how poorly these students do in school.
    http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/410936_LosingOurFuture.pdf

    My kids are going to be dying under the tax burden for all these marginally functional heavily dependent folks.

    Look, when a small percentage of a population is dysfunctional, addicted, criminal, low functioning etc, then we can all pull together and support the weak, joyfully even. However, when you look at the trend of an ever growing proportion of the non self sufficient and an ever shrinking group of productive law abiding folks and you blithely act like it will all work out by some miracle, then you are deluded.

    Mexico is more than happy to have these folks leave, and no wonder. Their problem becomes our problem.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Because, see, in order to claim that the US is “over-saturated with those from those below the southern border”, you’d have to make a claim for what the metric is for “saturation”, as well as where the line is drawn as to what is too much. And then you’d have to establish that we’d crossed that line.”

    Talk about impossible standard of proof.

    Go ahead. Make the argument that the US needs to import uneducated and only marginally educable people who also have very high crime rates and very high rates of social pathology like illegitimacy. Humane incarceration is very expensive.

    LA school system spends $27k per student per year for a graduation rate of 44%. I am not even complaining of the cost here. If they can’t learn with expenditures like that, I mean come on.

    Here is a study that repeatedly makes the point of how poorly these students do in school.
    http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/410936_LosingOurFuture.pdf

    My kids are going to be dying under the tax burden for all these marginally functional heavily dependent folks.

    Look, when a small percentage of a population is dysfunctional, addicted, criminal, low functioning etc, then we can all pull together and support the weak, joyfully even. However, when you look at the trend of an ever growing proportion of the non self sufficient and an ever shrinking group of productive law abiding folks and you blithely act like it will all work out by some miracle, then you are deluded.

    Mexico is more than happy to have these folks leave, and no wonder. Their problem becomes our problem.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” nobody here, as far as I’m aware, is for illegal immigration. What they are saying is that one cannot be draconian, there are harsh economic realities, and there are also huminatarian concerns.”

    What humanitarian concerns?

    Average life expectancy in Mexico is about 72.

    The situation is not as good as here, but humanitarian concerns?
    That is a little overly dramatic. Sure, they have a drug war going on but hey, they made their own bed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” nobody here, as far as I’m aware, is for illegal immigration. What they are saying is that one cannot be draconian, there are harsh economic realities, and there are also huminatarian concerns.”

    What humanitarian concerns?

    Average life expectancy in Mexico is about 72.

    The situation is not as good as here, but humanitarian concerns?
    That is a little overly dramatic. Sure, they have a drug war going on but hey, they made their own bed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And since you seem to think that the quality of an argument depends on where it’s made from, I spent the first half of my life in Texas (#3 in per-capita illegal immigrants, it is estimated), and I now live in Oregon (#11). Your claims, in general, ring false to me. As they might to Bror, who lives in Utah (#7).”

    Actually the rank matters little. It is the actual percentage that matters.

    The top 3 could have 5% of their population be illegals and #4 could have 1% and #7 could have .5%.

    Do you happen to know the actual percentage? I don’t.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And since you seem to think that the quality of an argument depends on where it’s made from, I spent the first half of my life in Texas (#3 in per-capita illegal immigrants, it is estimated), and I now live in Oregon (#11). Your claims, in general, ring false to me. As they might to Bror, who lives in Utah (#7).”

    Actually the rank matters little. It is the actual percentage that matters.

    The top 3 could have 5% of their population be illegals and #4 could have 1% and #7 could have .5%.

    Do you happen to know the actual percentage? I don’t.

  • Grace

    SG – 93 – “Mexico is more than happy to have these folks leave, and no wonder. Their problem becomes our problem.”

    You’re right, the statistics prove it!

    NEWSMAX

    Monday, March 27, 2006 11:39 a.m. EST
    Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals

    One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably “hard-working” and “law-abiding” once they get here.

    That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the “law-abiding” claim often isn’t true.

    As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

    “The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California’s prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces.”

  • Grace

    SG – 93 – “Mexico is more than happy to have these folks leave, and no wonder. Their problem becomes our problem.”

    You’re right, the statistics prove it!

    NEWSMAX

    Monday, March 27, 2006 11:39 a.m. EST
    Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals

    One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably “hard-working” and “law-abiding” once they get here.

    That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the “law-abiding” claim often isn’t true.

    As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

    “The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California’s prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces.”

  • Grace

    Illegal immigrants and U.S. healthcare debate

    Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:39pm EDT

    (Reuters) – The number of illegal immigrants in the United States who lack health insurance is a source of controversy in the debate over President Barack Obama’s plan to overhaul the $2.5 trillion healthcare sector.

    MORE INFO FROM ARTICLE:

    Here are some facts about illegal immigrants and healthcare in the United States:

    - There are 6.1 million uninsured adults who are illegal immigrants and 700,000 uninsured children who are illegal immigrants, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center, which was based on Census data.

    - U.S. citizens accounted for the bulk of the 8.6 million additional people who reported joining the ranks of the uninsured between 2000 and 2006, according to survey data. Two million of these were non-citizens, while half a million were naturalized citizens.

    Sources: U.S. Census Bureau; Pew Hispanic Center; Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured; Center for Immigration Studies; Leighton Ku, professor of public health policy, George Washington University, Federation for American Immigration Reform, Migration Policy Institute

    (Writing by Matthew Bigg, editing by Paul Simao)

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

  • Grace

    Illegal immigrants and U.S. healthcare debate

    Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:39pm EDT

    (Reuters) – The number of illegal immigrants in the United States who lack health insurance is a source of controversy in the debate over President Barack Obama’s plan to overhaul the $2.5 trillion healthcare sector.

    MORE INFO FROM ARTICLE:

    Here are some facts about illegal immigrants and healthcare in the United States:

    - There are 6.1 million uninsured adults who are illegal immigrants and 700,000 uninsured children who are illegal immigrants, according to an estimate by the non-partisan Pew Hispanic Center, which was based on Census data.

    - U.S. citizens accounted for the bulk of the 8.6 million additional people who reported joining the ranks of the uninsured between 2000 and 2006, according to survey data. Two million of these were non-citizens, while half a million were naturalized citizens.

    Sources: U.S. Census Bureau; Pew Hispanic Center; Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured; Center for Immigration Studies; Leighton Ku, professor of public health policy, George Washington University, Federation for American Immigration Reform, Migration Policy Institute

    (Writing by Matthew Bigg, editing by Paul Simao)

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Philosophically speaking, is there any ethical reason why high functioning, low crime, low social pathology, homogenous countries should take in immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries?

    I ask this because someone said the other day that there now exists in popular thought a sort of supreme secular ethic of equality.
    I mean, a heretofore understood as unrealistic view of equality, not simple fairness like equality before the law etc. Is there really a post modern anti racism view of social justice that is largely based on the idea that in a truly good society all groups would have similar levels of achievement in the various academic fields as well as in social and economic status?

    I ask this because no data anywhere supports a vision of such a possibility, yet any discussion of this seems to upset people. It is like we can’t understand that different groups are different just because the world is fallen.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Philosophically speaking, is there any ethical reason why high functioning, low crime, low social pathology, homogenous countries should take in immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries?

    I ask this because someone said the other day that there now exists in popular thought a sort of supreme secular ethic of equality.
    I mean, a heretofore understood as unrealistic view of equality, not simple fairness like equality before the law etc. Is there really a post modern anti racism view of social justice that is largely based on the idea that in a truly good society all groups would have similar levels of achievement in the various academic fields as well as in social and economic status?

    I ask this because no data anywhere supports a vision of such a possibility, yet any discussion of this seems to upset people. It is like we can’t understand that different groups are different just because the world is fallen.

  • kerner

    sg:

    What are you talking about? First, the USA is the least homogenous country in the world. Second, we have taken immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries for our entire history. And Third, we are now the greatest country in the world.

    Sounds like a great philosophy to me.

  • kerner

    sg:

    What are you talking about? First, the USA is the least homogenous country in the world. Second, we have taken immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries for our entire history. And Third, we are now the greatest country in the world.

    Sounds like a great philosophy to me.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I think you misunderstood. Obviously I can’t be referring to the US, we are not homogenous as you note. I am asking about an ideological principle and whether some believe it actually exists in people’s minds.

    For example, Japan essentially accepts almost no immigrants. They wish to preserve their identity. They have the lowest crime and are a high functioning society. It seems reasonable to assume that they would not benefit from immigration from countries with high crime, high levels of dysfunction. However those that would come from such countries could possibly benefit from moving to Japan.

    That is the model. Japan behaves a good global citizen but doesn’t want to import problems or change its identity. Is there any reason that they should feel obligated to accept folks that by any objective measure would reduce their quality of life and dilute their identity?

    To expand that notion, what about a country like Finland, which was recently rated a top quality of life country by a magazine?
    http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

    Should the countries whose diligent, law abiding, high functioning citizens create the safest and most prosperous and just societies feel obligated to permit immigration from low functioning, high crime, poor countries?

    The obvious implication is that such immigration would destroy the high functioning societies. Is there any rational basis for hoping that low functioning folks will be able to function as well as the natives who conceived and built these societies? Evidence seems to suggest they do better than they do at home but not as well as the natives.

    Do people honestly believe in some sort of theoretical equality principle that different groups can have similar levels of success?
    Do we have some obligation to try to make that happen? If so, why? What if it is not possible? How long will it take us to admit it?
    Why isn’t dealing fairly with people good enough? How should we deal with those who lack the ability to function well by our standards? I mean, Newsweek used our western standards to rank the countries in their list.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I think you misunderstood. Obviously I can’t be referring to the US, we are not homogenous as you note. I am asking about an ideological principle and whether some believe it actually exists in people’s minds.

    For example, Japan essentially accepts almost no immigrants. They wish to preserve their identity. They have the lowest crime and are a high functioning society. It seems reasonable to assume that they would not benefit from immigration from countries with high crime, high levels of dysfunction. However those that would come from such countries could possibly benefit from moving to Japan.

    That is the model. Japan behaves a good global citizen but doesn’t want to import problems or change its identity. Is there any reason that they should feel obligated to accept folks that by any objective measure would reduce their quality of life and dilute their identity?

    To expand that notion, what about a country like Finland, which was recently rated a top quality of life country by a magazine?
    http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

    Should the countries whose diligent, law abiding, high functioning citizens create the safest and most prosperous and just societies feel obligated to permit immigration from low functioning, high crime, poor countries?

    The obvious implication is that such immigration would destroy the high functioning societies. Is there any rational basis for hoping that low functioning folks will be able to function as well as the natives who conceived and built these societies? Evidence seems to suggest they do better than they do at home but not as well as the natives.

    Do people honestly believe in some sort of theoretical equality principle that different groups can have similar levels of success?
    Do we have some obligation to try to make that happen? If so, why? What if it is not possible? How long will it take us to admit it?
    Why isn’t dealing fairly with people good enough? How should we deal with those who lack the ability to function well by our standards? I mean, Newsweek used our western standards to rank the countries in their list.

  • Grace

    SG – 98 – “Philosophically speaking, is there any ethical reason why high functioning, low crime, low social pathology, homogenous countries should take in immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries? “

    Your entire post – outstanding. There is no country in the world that wishes to take “high crime” countries into their midst, it makes no sense. Those who feel differently will argue as Kerber #99:

    Kerner – 99 – “Second, we have taken immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries for our entire history. “

    That may very well be a thing of the past. Our founders wouldn’t have put up with the crime, south of our borders, illegal immigrants, squatting on US soil, lying, using false documentation – it’s nothing but a farce, to think we in this century, at this time, should further degrade the USA as has been the case in the past year plus.

  • Grace

    SG – 98 – “Philosophically speaking, is there any ethical reason why high functioning, low crime, low social pathology, homogenous countries should take in immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries? “

    Your entire post – outstanding. There is no country in the world that wishes to take “high crime” countries into their midst, it makes no sense. Those who feel differently will argue as Kerber #99:

    Kerner – 99 – “Second, we have taken immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries for our entire history. “

    That may very well be a thing of the past. Our founders wouldn’t have put up with the crime, south of our borders, illegal immigrants, squatting on US soil, lying, using false documentation – it’s nothing but a farce, to think we in this century, at this time, should further degrade the USA as has been the case in the past year plus.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “First, the USA is the least homogenous country in the world.”

    True.

    “Second, we have taken immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries for our entire history.”

    Such as?
    And how are those folks performing now?
    How are their countries of origin doing now so as to give us a basis for comparing how the same group does in different situations?
    I seem to recall immigration restrictions based on country of origin.
    I assume there was some rationale for that even if it differs from what we would now use.

    “And Third, we are now the greatest country in the world.”

    In spite of the low functioning folks?
    And because of the opportunity for the talented to contribute?

    Certainly there is no evidence that low functioning, criminals made us the greatest country in the world.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “First, the USA is the least homogenous country in the world.”

    True.

    “Second, we have taken immigrants from low functioning, high crime, high social pathology countries for our entire history.”

    Such as?
    And how are those folks performing now?
    How are their countries of origin doing now so as to give us a basis for comparing how the same group does in different situations?
    I seem to recall immigration restrictions based on country of origin.
    I assume there was some rationale for that even if it differs from what we would now use.

    “And Third, we are now the greatest country in the world.”

    In spite of the low functioning folks?
    And because of the opportunity for the talented to contribute?

    Certainly there is no evidence that low functioning, criminals made us the greatest country in the world.

  • kerner

    sg:

    You clearly miss my point. Unlike Japan and Finland, the USA has accepted immigrants from all over the world, including Japan and Finland, but also from places like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Sicily and Russia (which is where the Poles and Jews came from) . These were low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.

    By doing exactly the opposite of what is being done by Japan and Finland, we have created a much freer, stronger, more prosperous, and in my opinion, all round better nation than either Japan or Finland.

    I’ll tell you something else. Another country that does not allow immigration (or at least it doesn’t allow naturalization) is Saudi Arabia. They, as you seem to advocate, want to keep their culture intact. We are a better place that Saudi Arabia.

    My point is that the United States is the strong, powerful, and all round great place it is precisely BECAUSE it has ignored your advice all these years.

    The reason we are weakening now is decadence from within. We, like many industrialized nations (perhaps Japan and Finland among them) have begun to seek our own comfort above all else and we are beginning to forget the principles that have made us strong, and of course we now fear contact with scary foreigners. If we do as you say and emulate them, we will become weak like them.

    What we need to do is remember, or rediscover, how we got where we are in the first place. By believing in the rights of every person to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (which is freedom to work hard in a free market to prosper). If immigrants from any country want to participate in that system under those principles, we shouldn’t fear them, we should sign them up. They will make us stronger, just and their predecessors from all those other dysfunctional places did.

  • kerner

    sg:

    You clearly miss my point. Unlike Japan and Finland, the USA has accepted immigrants from all over the world, including Japan and Finland, but also from places like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Sicily and Russia (which is where the Poles and Jews came from) . These were low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.

    By doing exactly the opposite of what is being done by Japan and Finland, we have created a much freer, stronger, more prosperous, and in my opinion, all round better nation than either Japan or Finland.

    I’ll tell you something else. Another country that does not allow immigration (or at least it doesn’t allow naturalization) is Saudi Arabia. They, as you seem to advocate, want to keep their culture intact. We are a better place that Saudi Arabia.

    My point is that the United States is the strong, powerful, and all round great place it is precisely BECAUSE it has ignored your advice all these years.

    The reason we are weakening now is decadence from within. We, like many industrialized nations (perhaps Japan and Finland among them) have begun to seek our own comfort above all else and we are beginning to forget the principles that have made us strong, and of course we now fear contact with scary foreigners. If we do as you say and emulate them, we will become weak like them.

    What we need to do is remember, or rediscover, how we got where we are in the first place. By believing in the rights of every person to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (which is freedom to work hard in a free market to prosper). If immigrants from any country want to participate in that system under those principles, we shouldn’t fear them, we should sign them up. They will make us stronger, just and their predecessors from all those other dysfunctional places did.

  • kerner

    Oh, and I forgot. Cuba in 1959 was a very disfunctional place. Now Marco Rubio is a conservative candidate for the Senate, and far superior to the “homogenous” Charlie Crist.

  • kerner

    Oh, and I forgot. Cuba in 1959 was a very disfunctional place. Now Marco Rubio is a conservative candidate for the Senate, and far superior to the “homogenous” Charlie Crist.

  • Louis

    kerner – you are right here. The whole notion that immigrant countries, like Canada, the US, Australia, NZ, Brazil, Argentina etc etc can chose and arbitrary date as the cut-off for racial/cultural homogeniety is just dumb, and appears to have racist overtones. If sg & Grace would bother with their own countries history, they would realise that their arguments are almost verbatim the argumets that was used in the late 1800′s against Irish immigration.

    As a matter of fact, a famous early Canadia politician, was an Irishman that moved rom the US to Canada because of the way the Irish were treated by the Americans of the day – it is really ironical that he found better conditions, and greater acceptance, under the Union Jack.

    Anyway, the quest for a homogenous US ended at the time of the Virginia colonists, and the Pilgrim Fathers. This continent (the US more than Canada though), came under immigrant rule by wars of attrition, discrimination, and genocide. We cannot turn the clock back, and undue the past, but we need not repeat it…

  • Louis

    kerner – you are right here. The whole notion that immigrant countries, like Canada, the US, Australia, NZ, Brazil, Argentina etc etc can chose and arbitrary date as the cut-off for racial/cultural homogeniety is just dumb, and appears to have racist overtones. If sg & Grace would bother with their own countries history, they would realise that their arguments are almost verbatim the argumets that was used in the late 1800′s against Irish immigration.

    As a matter of fact, a famous early Canadia politician, was an Irishman that moved rom the US to Canada because of the way the Irish were treated by the Americans of the day – it is really ironical that he found better conditions, and greater acceptance, under the Union Jack.

    Anyway, the quest for a homogenous US ended at the time of the Virginia colonists, and the Pilgrim Fathers. This continent (the US more than Canada though), came under immigrant rule by wars of attrition, discrimination, and genocide. We cannot turn the clock back, and undue the past, but we need not repeat it…

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I was asking questions, not giving advice.

    I don’t see how you think those places were low functioning compared to other countries at the time. Relatively speaking, they were among the top. I mean, which country was better and by how much? Which was at the bottom? Also, they are doing well now, so it is safe to assume that the people themselves are high functioning.

    “If we do as you say and emulate them, we will become weak like them.”
    How are they weak? Japan is the 3rd largest economy in the world and Finland was rated at the top for quality of life. Both very safe countries. Certainly safer than here. For weak, I would think Zimbabwe, Somalia. Dangerous and poor.

    My fear is not the kind of weak (whatever you may mean) that is Japan and Finland. My fear is Zimbabwe and Somalia.

    Would you consider taking your kids on vacation to Japan? Finland? Zimbabwe? Somalia? Be serious. There is imperfection and then there is living hell.

    Finally, I asked if there is a rational basis for thinking there can possibly be equality of outcomes. I can’t think of any, but hey, that is why I am asking.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I was asking questions, not giving advice.

    I don’t see how you think those places were low functioning compared to other countries at the time. Relatively speaking, they were among the top. I mean, which country was better and by how much? Which was at the bottom? Also, they are doing well now, so it is safe to assume that the people themselves are high functioning.

    “If we do as you say and emulate them, we will become weak like them.”
    How are they weak? Japan is the 3rd largest economy in the world and Finland was rated at the top for quality of life. Both very safe countries. Certainly safer than here. For weak, I would think Zimbabwe, Somalia. Dangerous and poor.

    My fear is not the kind of weak (whatever you may mean) that is Japan and Finland. My fear is Zimbabwe and Somalia.

    Would you consider taking your kids on vacation to Japan? Finland? Zimbabwe? Somalia? Be serious. There is imperfection and then there is living hell.

    Finally, I asked if there is a rational basis for thinking there can possibly be equality of outcomes. I can’t think of any, but hey, that is why I am asking.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, obviously, the US can’t be homogenous.

    I was asking about the idea of whether there is a rational basis for thinking high functioning folks allowing low functioning folks to immigrate. No one has offered a rational basis.

    The Irish were never low functioning. There is actually a difference between unfounded rejection of immigrants and well founded rejection of immigrants. Obviously the rational won out as the Irish were allowed to immigrate.

    “If sg & Grace would bother with their own countries history, they would realise that their arguments are almost verbatim the argumets that was used in the late 1800′s against Irish immigration.”

    With the difference being that with regard to the Irish, history showed the Irish performed well over time, whereas immigrants from Mexico haven’t. Fourth generation Mexican immigrants have a lower graduation rate than second generation. (Charles Murray, Losing Ground)

    So, it appears there does exist in people’s mind an equalitarian principle perhaps. Or perhaps not. It is hard to tell from these comments.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, obviously, the US can’t be homogenous.

    I was asking about the idea of whether there is a rational basis for thinking high functioning folks allowing low functioning folks to immigrate. No one has offered a rational basis.

    The Irish were never low functioning. There is actually a difference between unfounded rejection of immigrants and well founded rejection of immigrants. Obviously the rational won out as the Irish were allowed to immigrate.

    “If sg & Grace would bother with their own countries history, they would realise that their arguments are almost verbatim the argumets that was used in the late 1800′s against Irish immigration.”

    With the difference being that with regard to the Irish, history showed the Irish performed well over time, whereas immigrants from Mexico haven’t. Fourth generation Mexican immigrants have a lower graduation rate than second generation. (Charles Murray, Losing Ground)

    So, it appears there does exist in people’s mind an equalitarian principle perhaps. Or perhaps not. It is hard to tell from these comments.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” This continent (the US more than Canada though), came under immigrant rule by wars of attrition, discrimination, and genocide. We cannot turn the clock back, and undue the past, but we need not repeat it…”

    So what? What does that have to do with now?

    What about a rational policy now?

    Did you look at those Dept. of Justice crime statistics?

    Did you see the huge increase since 2000 in Hispanic prisoners incarcerated in the US?
    There was a 50% increase in just 10 years while the others increased less than 5%.

    What is the rational basis for importing some more?

    This is not the argument made against the Irish, nor a war of attrition, nor genocide.

    This is just a question. What is the rational basis for more immigration from high crime, low functioning groups?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” This continent (the US more than Canada though), came under immigrant rule by wars of attrition, discrimination, and genocide. We cannot turn the clock back, and undue the past, but we need not repeat it…”

    So what? What does that have to do with now?

    What about a rational policy now?

    Did you look at those Dept. of Justice crime statistics?

    Did you see the huge increase since 2000 in Hispanic prisoners incarcerated in the US?
    There was a 50% increase in just 10 years while the others increased less than 5%.

    What is the rational basis for importing some more?

    This is not the argument made against the Irish, nor a war of attrition, nor genocide.

    This is just a question. What is the rational basis for more immigration from high crime, low functioning groups?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Louis, Kerner, the best to both of you. But I can’t stomach the arguments being made here by others — and if you’ve seen some of the stupid, petty arguments I’ve gotten into elsewhere on this blog, you’ll know that’s saying something. Thanks.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Louis, Kerner, the best to both of you. But I can’t stomach the arguments being made here by others — and if you’ve seen some of the stupid, petty arguments I’ve gotten into elsewhere on this blog, you’ll know that’s saying something. Thanks.

  • kerner

    sg:

    In the 1840′s Ireland was the backwater of Europe. It had almost no industry. Except for the quasi British aristocracy running the place, it was populated almost entirely by uneducated peasants. It was rife with revolutionary secret criminal societies dedicated to overthrowing its government. And it was these peasants, not the intelligensia, that immigrated to America, in droves. And they dominated organized crime in America until the Italians showed up 60 years later. Everything you now say about the Mexicans was said almost verbatim about the Irish, and like what you now say, the stereotypes had some basis in fact.

    Italy in the 1860′s was the site of a civil war being fought to unify the country. As the weak central government sought to gain control, they displaced the mafiosos who had controled the countryside much in the same way that cartel gangs control parts of latin American countries now. They came in droves too, and brought some of their criminal gang tendencies with them, which had to be stamped out.

    Russia still had serfdom until 1861. Russian culture is not really European as we understand it; it is really more Asiatic from being ruled by the Mongols for centuries. Russia was home to the most ignorant peasant class in Europe which included most people who lived there. While Russian Jews valued education, not many of them had a chance to get an education in Russia. Poles, especially those who emigrated, were largely from the peasant class. Some of them knew some skilled trades, but most of them were uneducated when they came here, and they got their “free” educations at society’s expense in the USA.

    Do I even have to explain what was wrong with Cuba in 1959?

    But goodness, sg. You’re from Texas! Do you honestly believe that the west was won by a bunch of graduate students form the country club set? The American south, and eventually Texas, was settled primarily by the Scotch-Irish. One of the most violent cultures in Europe. Why do you think they were still settling disputes with gunfights decades after Europe had Outlawed dueling (and what duals they had in Europe were almost never to the death). The people who settled this country were some tough customers, sg. And plenty of them had been in a few scrapes with the law back in the old country. Those characteristics had to be channeled into constructive pursuits, but don’t you believe for a second that they didn’t exist.

  • kerner

    sg:

    In the 1840′s Ireland was the backwater of Europe. It had almost no industry. Except for the quasi British aristocracy running the place, it was populated almost entirely by uneducated peasants. It was rife with revolutionary secret criminal societies dedicated to overthrowing its government. And it was these peasants, not the intelligensia, that immigrated to America, in droves. And they dominated organized crime in America until the Italians showed up 60 years later. Everything you now say about the Mexicans was said almost verbatim about the Irish, and like what you now say, the stereotypes had some basis in fact.

    Italy in the 1860′s was the site of a civil war being fought to unify the country. As the weak central government sought to gain control, they displaced the mafiosos who had controled the countryside much in the same way that cartel gangs control parts of latin American countries now. They came in droves too, and brought some of their criminal gang tendencies with them, which had to be stamped out.

    Russia still had serfdom until 1861. Russian culture is not really European as we understand it; it is really more Asiatic from being ruled by the Mongols for centuries. Russia was home to the most ignorant peasant class in Europe which included most people who lived there. While Russian Jews valued education, not many of them had a chance to get an education in Russia. Poles, especially those who emigrated, were largely from the peasant class. Some of them knew some skilled trades, but most of them were uneducated when they came here, and they got their “free” educations at society’s expense in the USA.

    Do I even have to explain what was wrong with Cuba in 1959?

    But goodness, sg. You’re from Texas! Do you honestly believe that the west was won by a bunch of graduate students form the country club set? The American south, and eventually Texas, was settled primarily by the Scotch-Irish. One of the most violent cultures in Europe. Why do you think they were still settling disputes with gunfights decades after Europe had Outlawed dueling (and what duals they had in Europe were almost never to the death). The people who settled this country were some tough customers, sg. And plenty of them had been in a few scrapes with the law back in the old country. Those characteristics had to be channeled into constructive pursuits, but don’t you believe for a second that they didn’t exist.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh, and I forgot. Cuba in 1959 was a very disfunctional place. Now Marco Rubio is a conservative candidate for the Senate, and far superior to the “homogenous” Charlie Crist.”

    Uh, Cuba was okay till the marxists. How is Charlie Christ homogenous? Homogenous refers to groups not individuals.

    However, if you put Rubio and Crist in a group, then you could call them homogenous, since they are both white.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh, and I forgot. Cuba in 1959 was a very disfunctional place. Now Marco Rubio is a conservative candidate for the Senate, and far superior to the “homogenous” Charlie Crist.”

    Uh, Cuba was okay till the marxists. How is Charlie Christ homogenous? Homogenous refers to groups not individuals.

    However, if you put Rubio and Crist in a group, then you could call them homogenous, since they are both white.

  • kerner

    One last thing. The reason many people from Ireland, Italy, Russia, and now, Mexico, were poor and ignorant was because they lived in oppressive countries in which people like them couldn’t get an education and under economic systems (eg, Russian serfdom) in which they couldn’t get ahead, even if they worked like dogs. That’s why coming here is such a dream. Work hard, and you can get ahead (at least as long as we preserve the free market). That is why so many aparently “low functioning” people from other places come here and function at a higher level that you would have expected.

  • kerner

    One last thing. The reason many people from Ireland, Italy, Russia, and now, Mexico, were poor and ignorant was because they lived in oppressive countries in which people like them couldn’t get an education and under economic systems (eg, Russian serfdom) in which they couldn’t get ahead, even if they worked like dogs. That’s why coming here is such a dream. Work hard, and you can get ahead (at least as long as we preserve the free market). That is why so many aparently “low functioning” people from other places come here and function at a higher level that you would have expected.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I got your point that the Irish, Russians weren’t at the top of Europe, but I am not comparing them to Europe, rather the world. They were nowhere near the bottom compared to the world. They weren’t low functioning. They were oppressed. As for the organized crime, that doesn’t mean they had a high incidence rate. I don’t know. Maybe they did. However, we have clear DoJ stats now that sure don’t make the case for adding more illegal aliens from south of the border.

    @tODD, “But I can’t stomach the arguments being made here by others —”

    LOL

    This subject is taboo. Some folks can’t stomach anyone questioning the party line. Crack me up. Too funny. That’s right folks. Whites are the only group that can be openly criticized. No amount of good behavior and social spending can ever atone for misdeeds of folks we didn’t even know. All other groups are taboo. They must never be criticized or scrutinized.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I got your point that the Irish, Russians weren’t at the top of Europe, but I am not comparing them to Europe, rather the world. They were nowhere near the bottom compared to the world. They weren’t low functioning. They were oppressed. As for the organized crime, that doesn’t mean they had a high incidence rate. I don’t know. Maybe they did. However, we have clear DoJ stats now that sure don’t make the case for adding more illegal aliens from south of the border.

    @tODD, “But I can’t stomach the arguments being made here by others —”

    LOL

    This subject is taboo. Some folks can’t stomach anyone questioning the party line. Crack me up. Too funny. That’s right folks. Whites are the only group that can be openly criticized. No amount of good behavior and social spending can ever atone for misdeeds of folks we didn’t even know. All other groups are taboo. They must never be criticized or scrutinized.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The reason many people from Ireland, Italy, Russia, and now, Mexico, were poor and ignorant was because they lived in oppressive countries in which people like them couldn’t get an education and under economic systems.”

    The problem with this argument is the massive amounts of data we have collected over the past 100 years. As soon as those people had the opportunity they quickly advanced. I cited evidence twice regarding educational outcomes after these groups had access to education. Look at any test scores for the different groups and you always get the exact same pattern. Doesn’t matter if it is NAEP data, SAT, ACT, graduation rates whatever. Always the same pattern.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The reason many people from Ireland, Italy, Russia, and now, Mexico, were poor and ignorant was because they lived in oppressive countries in which people like them couldn’t get an education and under economic systems.”

    The problem with this argument is the massive amounts of data we have collected over the past 100 years. As soon as those people had the opportunity they quickly advanced. I cited evidence twice regarding educational outcomes after these groups had access to education. Look at any test scores for the different groups and you always get the exact same pattern. Doesn’t matter if it is NAEP data, SAT, ACT, graduation rates whatever. Always the same pattern.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “That is why so many aparently “low functioning” people from other places come here and function at a higher level that you would have expected.”

    Okay here I absolutely agree with you. Everyone does better in America. That is true. However, not everyone contributes to America. That is my point.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “That is why so many aparently “low functioning” people from other places come here and function at a higher level that you would have expected.”

    Okay here I absolutely agree with you. Everyone does better in America. That is true. However, not everyone contributes to America. That is my point.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Not one offer of a rational basis for adding more immigrants from Mexico.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Not one offer of a rational basis for adding more immigrants from Mexico.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Russia still had serfdom until 1861″

    So, we had slavery till 1865.

    How are those former serfs doing now?
    How about compared to our former slaves?

    How do they do when they have opportunity?

    No one thrives under oppression. Duh.

    Are Mexicans oppressed or just low functioning?
    What about Russians?

    Both have crappy governments.

    Actually, I think that Russians have a lower life expectancy than Mexicans. Hey maybe we should have more Russian immigrants on humanitarian grounds. They would live longer here no doubt.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Russia still had serfdom until 1861″

    So, we had slavery till 1865.

    How are those former serfs doing now?
    How about compared to our former slaves?

    How do they do when they have opportunity?

    No one thrives under oppression. Duh.

    Are Mexicans oppressed or just low functioning?
    What about Russians?

    Both have crappy governments.

    Actually, I think that Russians have a lower life expectancy than Mexicans. Hey maybe we should have more Russian immigrants on humanitarian grounds. They would live longer here no doubt.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 103 – You clearly miss my point. Unlike Japan and Finland, the USA has accepted immigrants from all over the world, including Japan and Finland, but also from places like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Sicily and Russia (which is where the Poles and Jews came from) . These were low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.”

    Kerner, the Poles and Jews were not as you say “low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.” – The Poles and Jews were NOT of “low education” as you say.

    Why do you single out the Jew Kerner ?

    Look back to the mid 1930′s this would take you to Hitler’s time, his hatred of the Jews – …. the reason this despicable man hated the Jewish people was? Do you know the answer? They were not as you say “low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional” – they were in fact the very opposite, that is why ENVY developed with Hitler leading the march. Have you studied WW2? – I have.

    The best doctors, scientists, business people, including jewelers lived in Germany and other parts of Europe. They were brilliant in their fields. The reason Hitler used the Jewish doctors within the camps was; they knew what other doctors had never known, or studied, …… the Jewish physicians were the prize, they were the cream of the crop and Hitler knew it, he used them to torture, hurt. – - – - Other physicians were used to disfigure the male Jewish adolescents, making them eunuchs,….. I have viewed the photographs which are the worst, ugliest acts against a boy one can imagine. The pain and anguish that must have been endured, the humiliation and lack of manhood that was taken away by a JEALOUS leader such as Hitler and his henchmen, it’s all too ugly, and will remain a mark on all those who despise the Jewish people – it remains even until today.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 103 – You clearly miss my point. Unlike Japan and Finland, the USA has accepted immigrants from all over the world, including Japan and Finland, but also from places like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Sicily and Russia (which is where the Poles and Jews came from) . These were low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.”

    Kerner, the Poles and Jews were not as you say “low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.” – The Poles and Jews were NOT of “low education” as you say.

    Why do you single out the Jew Kerner ?

    Look back to the mid 1930′s this would take you to Hitler’s time, his hatred of the Jews – …. the reason this despicable man hated the Jewish people was? Do you know the answer? They were not as you say “low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional” – they were in fact the very opposite, that is why ENVY developed with Hitler leading the march. Have you studied WW2? – I have.

    The best doctors, scientists, business people, including jewelers lived in Germany and other parts of Europe. They were brilliant in their fields. The reason Hitler used the Jewish doctors within the camps was; they knew what other doctors had never known, or studied, …… the Jewish physicians were the prize, they were the cream of the crop and Hitler knew it, he used them to torture, hurt. – - – - Other physicians were used to disfigure the male Jewish adolescents, making them eunuchs,….. I have viewed the photographs which are the worst, ugliest acts against a boy one can imagine. The pain and anguish that must have been endured, the humiliation and lack of manhood that was taken away by a JEALOUS leader such as Hitler and his henchmen, it’s all too ugly, and will remain a mark on all those who despise the Jewish people – it remains even until today.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    What you say about the Jews in Germany was substantially true. But in Russia they had it much worse in 1900 or so. They weren’t allowed to prosper in Russia the way they did in Germany. They were persecuted under the Czarist regime, which is why the Jews who immigrated to the USA in large numbers between 1895-1910 were mostly from Czarist Russia.

    Poland didn’t exist as an independent country during the 19th century until after WWI. Poles lives in what was then Germany, Russia and Austria, and they were looked down upon by the majority cultures of all three places. But the Poles who came to America during the late 19th and early 20th centuries did indeed include many poor and illiterate (i.e., “low functioning”) people…

    http://culture.polishsite.us/articles/art41fr.htm

    …and they took the kind of jobs such people could get in the USA. But just because they came here poor and illiterate didn’t mean they wanted to stay that way.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    What you say about the Jews in Germany was substantially true. But in Russia they had it much worse in 1900 or so. They weren’t allowed to prosper in Russia the way they did in Germany. They were persecuted under the Czarist regime, which is why the Jews who immigrated to the USA in large numbers between 1895-1910 were mostly from Czarist Russia.

    Poland didn’t exist as an independent country during the 19th century until after WWI. Poles lives in what was then Germany, Russia and Austria, and they were looked down upon by the majority cultures of all three places. But the Poles who came to America during the late 19th and early 20th centuries did indeed include many poor and illiterate (i.e., “low functioning”) people…

    http://culture.polishsite.us/articles/art41fr.htm

    …and they took the kind of jobs such people could get in the USA. But just because they came here poor and illiterate didn’t mean they wanted to stay that way.

  • Grace

    Kerner, when anyone mentions the Jews, the tribulation, hardship they are zeroing into a people who date back to the OT, God’s chosen people – anti-semitic remarks don’t work, especially where I live.

    I have interviewed the Jewish people who are still alive from the camps. I have seen their pain, I love them, …. God loves them. However the world continues to single them out. Is it any wonder, ? the Word of God makes clear that mankind would dislike them.

    The Jews are a ‘gifted people’ they are gifted in medicine, science, business, education – the list is endless. Their children sit at the dinning room table to study, they aren’t fooling around, they don’t waste their time – and yes they go to Temple on Saturday to study Hebrew – they know from their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents that life could change at any moment – and IT DOES. One has only to read the papers from Israel to understand the task and hurdles that lay ahead for God’s chosen people.

    God help them as they seek to know the truth – their sons or great grandsons who might be part of the 144,000 (oh yes, I know many of you don’t understand or know that the 12 tribes will be called into duty – end times)

    What is left to say? I don’t know the end, other than what the Bible teaches.

  • Grace

    Kerner, when anyone mentions the Jews, the tribulation, hardship they are zeroing into a people who date back to the OT, God’s chosen people – anti-semitic remarks don’t work, especially where I live.

    I have interviewed the Jewish people who are still alive from the camps. I have seen their pain, I love them, …. God loves them. However the world continues to single them out. Is it any wonder, ? the Word of God makes clear that mankind would dislike them.

    The Jews are a ‘gifted people’ they are gifted in medicine, science, business, education – the list is endless. Their children sit at the dinning room table to study, they aren’t fooling around, they don’t waste their time – and yes they go to Temple on Saturday to study Hebrew – they know from their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents that life could change at any moment – and IT DOES. One has only to read the papers from Israel to understand the task and hurdles that lay ahead for God’s chosen people.

    God help them as they seek to know the truth – their sons or great grandsons who might be part of the 144,000 (oh yes, I know many of you don’t understand or know that the 12 tribes will be called into duty – end times)

    What is left to say? I don’t know the end, other than what the Bible teaches.

  • kerner

    Grace, please. I didn’t say Jews were bad people. I said they lived in a dysfunctional place where they were prevented from achieving what they otherwise could have. Like everybody else who immigrates, they left the country where they were born because they felt they were being held back and could do better elsewhere. Which is not to say they didn’t have their faults. But their faults or virtues as a group are not the point.

    In 1905 a lot of Americans WERE anti-semitic and thought Jews shouldn’t be allowed into this country, and a lot of Americans thought that Jews would dilute our culture. It was wrong then, just as it is now, to say that about an entire people.

  • kerner

    Grace, please. I didn’t say Jews were bad people. I said they lived in a dysfunctional place where they were prevented from achieving what they otherwise could have. Like everybody else who immigrates, they left the country where they were born because they felt they were being held back and could do better elsewhere. Which is not to say they didn’t have their faults. But their faults or virtues as a group are not the point.

    In 1905 a lot of Americans WERE anti-semitic and thought Jews shouldn’t be allowed into this country, and a lot of Americans thought that Jews would dilute our culture. It was wrong then, just as it is now, to say that about an entire people.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 121 – “Grace, please. I didn’t say Jews were bad people. I said they lived in a dysfunctional place where they were prevented from achieving what they otherwise could have. Like everybody else who immigrates, they left the country where they were born because they felt they were being held back and could do better elsewhere. Which is not to say they didn’t have their faults. But their faults or virtues as a group are not the point.”

    I didn’t accuse you of saying the “Jews were bad people” that isn’t the issue, please don’t confuse the issue, posts with remarks that haven’t been made – Further more, the Jews didn’t leave their homelands for any other reason except they were persecuted, just as recorded in prophecy within the Word of God – The Jews understand danger. The Jews achieved much in education etc. Are you not aware of their long history regarding education, achievement in many fields?

    Kerner – this is what you posted in #103 below –

    “Kerner – 103 – “You clearly miss my point. Unlike Japan and Finland, the USA has accepted immigrants from all over the world, including Japan and Finland, but also from places like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Sicily and Russia (which is where the Poles and Jews came from) . These were low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.”

    Your statement above is false – Jews have never been of “low education” very much the contrary, and that is what riles many others, …… false assumptions. This includes those who stood with Hitler in the mid 30′s – they were hated for what they had, and their education – the same holds true today in the US. Jews are envied by their ability, be it law, medicine, or business, etc.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 121 – “Grace, please. I didn’t say Jews were bad people. I said they lived in a dysfunctional place where they were prevented from achieving what they otherwise could have. Like everybody else who immigrates, they left the country where they were born because they felt they were being held back and could do better elsewhere. Which is not to say they didn’t have their faults. But their faults or virtues as a group are not the point.”

    I didn’t accuse you of saying the “Jews were bad people” that isn’t the issue, please don’t confuse the issue, posts with remarks that haven’t been made – Further more, the Jews didn’t leave their homelands for any other reason except they were persecuted, just as recorded in prophecy within the Word of God – The Jews understand danger. The Jews achieved much in education etc. Are you not aware of their long history regarding education, achievement in many fields?

    Kerner – this is what you posted in #103 below –

    “Kerner – 103 – “You clearly miss my point. Unlike Japan and Finland, the USA has accepted immigrants from all over the world, including Japan and Finland, but also from places like Ireland, Northern Ireland, Sicily and Russia (which is where the Poles and Jews came from) . These were low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional places at the times that so many immigrants left and came to the United States.”

    Your statement above is false – Jews have never been of “low education” very much the contrary, and that is what riles many others, …… false assumptions. This includes those who stood with Hitler in the mid 30′s – they were hated for what they had, and their education – the same holds true today in the US. Jews are envied by their ability, be it law, medicine, or business, etc.

  • Louis

    sg & Grace – my reply to you at 105 was based on your posts at 100 & 101, which, I think, revealed your hand. I might hazard a guess that this is what turns Todd’s stomach, not the previous arguments. Simply put, it is revolting. Your appeal to homogeneity, while you live in the least homogenous land in the world is puzzling, nay, it reveals thought patterns, philosophies and prejeduce’s that are far more sinister than anything else you have said here. As the saying goes, pardon me mam, but your slip is showing.

    There is nothing more to be said here. Kerner – I’d venture to suggest that our efforts are are in vain. Another day, maybe?

  • Louis

    sg & Grace – my reply to you at 105 was based on your posts at 100 & 101, which, I think, revealed your hand. I might hazard a guess that this is what turns Todd’s stomach, not the previous arguments. Simply put, it is revolting. Your appeal to homogeneity, while you live in the least homogenous land in the world is puzzling, nay, it reveals thought patterns, philosophies and prejeduce’s that are far more sinister than anything else you have said here. As the saying goes, pardon me mam, but your slip is showing.

    There is nothing more to be said here. Kerner – I’d venture to suggest that our efforts are are in vain. Another day, maybe?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Ashkenazi Jews (Russian Jews) have a mean IQ of 112-115 which is about one standard deviation above the white mean. Interesting analysis here:

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/diversity.htm

    The discussion of Jewish students is near the end.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Ashkenazi Jews (Russian Jews) have a mean IQ of 112-115 which is about one standard deviation above the white mean. Interesting analysis here:

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/diversity.htm

    The discussion of Jewish students is near the end.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your appeal to homogeneity, while you live in the least homogenous land in the world is puzzling, nay, it reveals thought patterns, philosophies and prejeduce’s that are far more sinister than anything else you have said here. As the saying goes, pardon me mam, but your slip is showing.”

    Sinister thought patterns? Hilarious.

    How about sinister data.

    Basically no one can come up with a rational reason why high performing homogenous countries would want immigrants from violent low performing countries. So, Louis says my slip is showing?

    Sinister prejudice? Um prejudice is when you judge before. I am judging after seeing the date from DoJ, NAEP, SAT, Census etc.

    I am just talking facts here like the Dept of Justice statistics which should worry any rational person.

    I keep asking for a rational basis for increasing the proportion of high crime immigrants, who do very poorly in school when given every opportunity right here in the US.

    No one can give a rational basis. I assume because there isn’t one.

    No one wants to discuss the data, rather the constant implication that I should think about these things much less contemplate the implications.

    I think the data are pretty sinister, even stomach turning when you consider what that data may bode for the future.

    Will my kids be blamed for the failures of these low performing groups?
    Bror blamed whiny housewives, while sympathizing with violent gang members.
    Where does the post modern nonsense end?

    The post modernist rejects reason. I see a lot of that here. Pretty sinister indeed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your appeal to homogeneity, while you live in the least homogenous land in the world is puzzling, nay, it reveals thought patterns, philosophies and prejeduce’s that are far more sinister than anything else you have said here. As the saying goes, pardon me mam, but your slip is showing.”

    Sinister thought patterns? Hilarious.

    How about sinister data.

    Basically no one can come up with a rational reason why high performing homogenous countries would want immigrants from violent low performing countries. So, Louis says my slip is showing?

    Sinister prejudice? Um prejudice is when you judge before. I am judging after seeing the date from DoJ, NAEP, SAT, Census etc.

    I am just talking facts here like the Dept of Justice statistics which should worry any rational person.

    I keep asking for a rational basis for increasing the proportion of high crime immigrants, who do very poorly in school when given every opportunity right here in the US.

    No one can give a rational basis. I assume because there isn’t one.

    No one wants to discuss the data, rather the constant implication that I should think about these things much less contemplate the implications.

    I think the data are pretty sinister, even stomach turning when you consider what that data may bode for the future.

    Will my kids be blamed for the failures of these low performing groups?
    Bror blamed whiny housewives, while sympathizing with violent gang members.
    Where does the post modern nonsense end?

    The post modernist rejects reason. I see a lot of that here. Pretty sinister indeed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your appeal to homogeneity, while you live in the least homogenous land in the world is puzzling, nay, it reveals thought patterns, philosophies and prejeduce’s that are far more sinister than anything else you have said here. As the saying goes, pardon me mam, but your slip is showing.”

    Sinister thought patterns? Hilarious.

    How about sinister data.

    Basically no one can come up with a rational reason why high performing homogenous countries would want immigrants from violent low performing countries. So, Louis says my slip is showing?

    Sinister prejudice? Um prejudice is when you judge before. I am judging after seeing the date from DoJ, NAEP, SAT, Census etc.

    I am just talking facts here like the Dept of Justice statistics which should worry any rational person.

    I keep asking for a rational basis for increasing the proportion of high crime immigrants, who do very poorly in school when given every opportunity right here in the US.

    No one can give a rational basis. I assume because there isn’t one.

    No one wants to discuss the data, rather the constant implication that I should think about these things much less contemplate the implications.

    I think the data are pretty sinister, even stomach turning when you consider what that data may bode for the future.

    Will my kids be blamed for the failures of these low performing groups?
    Bror blamed whiny housewives, while sympathizing with violent gang members.
    Where does the post modern nonsense end?

    The post modernist rejects reason. I see a lot of that here. Pretty sinister indeed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your appeal to homogeneity, while you live in the least homogenous land in the world is puzzling, nay, it reveals thought patterns, philosophies and prejeduce’s that are far more sinister than anything else you have said here. As the saying goes, pardon me mam, but your slip is showing.”

    Sinister thought patterns? Hilarious.

    How about sinister data.

    Basically no one can come up with a rational reason why high performing homogenous countries would want immigrants from violent low performing countries. So, Louis says my slip is showing?

    Sinister prejudice? Um prejudice is when you judge before. I am judging after seeing the date from DoJ, NAEP, SAT, Census etc.

    I am just talking facts here like the Dept of Justice statistics which should worry any rational person.

    I keep asking for a rational basis for increasing the proportion of high crime immigrants, who do very poorly in school when given every opportunity right here in the US.

    No one can give a rational basis. I assume because there isn’t one.

    No one wants to discuss the data, rather the constant implication that I should think about these things much less contemplate the implications.

    I think the data are pretty sinister, even stomach turning when you consider what that data may bode for the future.

    Will my kids be blamed for the failures of these low performing groups?
    Bror blamed whiny housewives, while sympathizing with violent gang members.
    Where does the post modern nonsense end?

    The post modernist rejects reason. I see a lot of that here. Pretty sinister indeed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oops, should be

    “No one wants to discuss the data, rather the constant implication that I should NOT think about these things much less contemplate the implications.”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oops, should be

    “No one wants to discuss the data, rather the constant implication that I should NOT think about these things much less contemplate the implications.”

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg.
    I have never defended violent criminals.
    But if you and Grace ate typical of the women you whine about men abandoning, well there isn’t anything worth defending. I would be sorry forever having put on a uniform, which I did with plenty a high functioning Hispanic in their first and second generatIon in America. As it is I’m glad I served this country when I did, because this country give so say of those you despise an opportunity to make it a jaed. And I dare say the guy at the taco stand has contributed more to our society then you or grace have.
    Now back to my vavation with a woman worth defending!

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg.
    I have never defended violent criminals.
    But if you and Grace ate typical of the women you whine about men abandoning, well there isn’t anything worth defending. I would be sorry forever having put on a uniform, which I did with plenty a high functioning Hispanic in their first and second generatIon in America. As it is I’m glad I served this country when I did, because this country give so say of those you despise an opportunity to make it a jaed. And I dare say the guy at the taco stand has contributed more to our society then you or grace have.
    Now back to my vavation with a woman worth defending!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But if you and Grace ate typical of the women you whine about men abandoning, well there isn’t anything worth defending.”

    Why?

    Because I fear criminals?

    Because I look at data and see the trends?

    Because I don’t just follow the cultural zeitgeist?

    Because I ask hard questions?

    Did you look at any of that data?

    What unfounded assumptions have I made?

    I am willing to listen, but no one has any suggestions or ideas how this can possibly work out. Just showing up and claiming women who have questions aren’t worth defending isn’t going to make the problems go away. Insulting me isn’t going to make them productive citizens, nor help their kids learn in school. It is pretty irresponsible to blame and despise the diligent and defend the indolent and criminal.

    I have to say, it is pretty disappointing that so few willing to take a hard honest look at facts and offer reasonable suggestions.

    I am not even seeking that people agree, just looking for reasonable ideas based on facts.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But if you and Grace ate typical of the women you whine about men abandoning, well there isn’t anything worth defending.”

    Why?

    Because I fear criminals?

    Because I look at data and see the trends?

    Because I don’t just follow the cultural zeitgeist?

    Because I ask hard questions?

    Did you look at any of that data?

    What unfounded assumptions have I made?

    I am willing to listen, but no one has any suggestions or ideas how this can possibly work out. Just showing up and claiming women who have questions aren’t worth defending isn’t going to make the problems go away. Insulting me isn’t going to make them productive citizens, nor help their kids learn in school. It is pretty irresponsible to blame and despise the diligent and defend the indolent and criminal.

    I have to say, it is pretty disappointing that so few willing to take a hard honest look at facts and offer reasonable suggestions.

    I am not even seeking that people agree, just looking for reasonable ideas based on facts.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @Bror
    “I have never defended violent criminals.”

    Really?

    “The problem I have with California, after having gone to Highschool there, and twice being jumped by mexican gangs, and returning for college. Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem.”

    How is it self righteous folks create and exacerbate the problem?

    Please tell us, we would all love to know.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @Bror
    “I have never defended violent criminals.”

    Really?

    “The problem I have with California, after having gone to Highschool there, and twice being jumped by mexican gangs, and returning for college. Is actually people like you who are too self righteous in their born again world to see that they actually create and exacerbate the problem.”

    How is it self righteous folks create and exacerbate the problem?

    Please tell us, we would all love to know.

  • Tom Hering

    Can we all agree that the immigration laws, as they stand, are the law until the laws are changed? (Romans 13 should be referenced here.) And that illegal immigrants are, well, illegal? In other words, the personal character of an illegal immigrant is irrelevant – whether that person was a criminal in their own country, or just a lover of freedom and opportunity. By entering America illegally – by breaking our immigration laws – they become a criminal. (Not exactly the way to make the case that you would be a good citizen – or to show that your character, if generally good, should be taken into consideration.)

    What is the proper response to their crime? Punishment, as with any other crime. Unless we want to be merciful, in which case: deportation – which is not a punishment, as no restitution or incarceration (except temporary holding) is imposed. Just a return to square one for both the illegal immigrant and our country.

  • Tom Hering

    Can we all agree that the immigration laws, as they stand, are the law until the laws are changed? (Romans 13 should be referenced here.) And that illegal immigrants are, well, illegal? In other words, the personal character of an illegal immigrant is irrelevant – whether that person was a criminal in their own country, or just a lover of freedom and opportunity. By entering America illegally – by breaking our immigration laws – they become a criminal. (Not exactly the way to make the case that you would be a good citizen – or to show that your character, if generally good, should be taken into consideration.)

    What is the proper response to their crime? Punishment, as with any other crime. Unless we want to be merciful, in which case: deportation – which is not a punishment, as no restitution or incarceration (except temporary holding) is imposed. Just a return to square one for both the illegal immigrant and our country.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Tom Herring, 131

    I can agree to that.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Tom Herring, 131

    I can agree to that.

  • Grace

    Tom – 131 – “What is the proper response to their crime? Punishment, as with any other crime. Unless we want to be merciful, in which case: deportation – which is not a punishment, as no restitution or incarceration (except temporary holding) is imposed. Just a return to square one for both the illegal immigrant and our country.”

    Deportation, without the right to return to the United States – that would be punishment without the cost of incarceration, and would not be thought of as “temporary holding”, it would be permanent exclusion to re-enter the US.

    IF, the illegal again comes to the US and is caught again, it is an automatic 10 years in prison, …. I would add, a prison built near the border, only incarcerating those who are illegal aliens. That would include drug offenders, and those who have committed crimes such as murder, rape, robbery, including theft of any kind.

    Until people people understand fully, – - breaking the laws of the US are tough regarding immigration, this problem will not disappear.

  • Grace

    Tom – 131 – “What is the proper response to their crime? Punishment, as with any other crime. Unless we want to be merciful, in which case: deportation – which is not a punishment, as no restitution or incarceration (except temporary holding) is imposed. Just a return to square one for both the illegal immigrant and our country.”

    Deportation, without the right to return to the United States – that would be punishment without the cost of incarceration, and would not be thought of as “temporary holding”, it would be permanent exclusion to re-enter the US.

    IF, the illegal again comes to the US and is caught again, it is an automatic 10 years in prison, …. I would add, a prison built near the border, only incarcerating those who are illegal aliens. That would include drug offenders, and those who have committed crimes such as murder, rape, robbery, including theft of any kind.

    Until people people understand fully, – - breaking the laws of the US are tough regarding immigration, this problem will not disappear.

  • Tom Hering

    “Deportation, without the right to return to the United States – that would be punishment without the cost of incarceration, and would not be thought of as ‘temporary holding’, it would be permanent exclusion to re-enter the US.” – Grace @ 133.

    “There are statutory bars to entering the US after a deportation. In 1996, US Congress created a ten (10) year bar to admissibility for non-citizens ordered removed or deported. This 10-year bar also applies to those who depart while an order of removal is outstanding. For those who were sent back or asked to return to their country of origin at the port of entry or those “airport to airport” cases, there is a five (5) year bar to admissibility. There is a twenty (20) year bar for second removal. For those who were deported because of aggravated felony, the bar is permanent. These bars can be waived if the immigration agency grants a reapplication for admission. This means that the deportee may still re-enter the US after a waiver is filed and granted.” – Atty. Lourdes Santos Tancinco.

  • Tom Hering

    “Deportation, without the right to return to the United States – that would be punishment without the cost of incarceration, and would not be thought of as ‘temporary holding’, it would be permanent exclusion to re-enter the US.” – Grace @ 133.

    “There are statutory bars to entering the US after a deportation. In 1996, US Congress created a ten (10) year bar to admissibility for non-citizens ordered removed or deported. This 10-year bar also applies to those who depart while an order of removal is outstanding. For those who were sent back or asked to return to their country of origin at the port of entry or those “airport to airport” cases, there is a five (5) year bar to admissibility. There is a twenty (20) year bar for second removal. For those who were deported because of aggravated felony, the bar is permanent. These bars can be waived if the immigration agency grants a reapplication for admission. This means that the deportee may still re-enter the US after a waiver is filed and granted.” – Atty. Lourdes Santos Tancinco.

  • Grace

    Yes, I know and understand Tom, – I was responding to your post #131. The laws can be changed to meet the present situation.

  • Grace

    Yes, I know and understand Tom, – I was responding to your post #131. The laws can be changed to meet the present situation.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, your phrasing @ 133 can be taken as saying: this is the way it is. I now understand you meant: this is the way it should be.

    And we want immigrants to learn this loopy language?! ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, your phrasing @ 133 can be taken as saying: this is the way it is. I now understand you meant: this is the way it should be.

    And we want immigrants to learn this loopy language?! ;-)

  • Grace

    Tom, I suppose it’s too much to ask, but YES! Sorry about the wording of my post, it could have been much clearer.

  • Grace

    Tom, I suppose it’s too much to ask, but YES! Sorry about the wording of my post, it could have been much clearer.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Tom,
    To answer your question no. I think it unjust of a country as great as ours to create a situation in which we have a market for “illegal” labor. I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.
    I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our socialist economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either.
    I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.
    No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Tom,
    To answer your question no. I think it unjust of a country as great as ours to create a situation in which we have a market for “illegal” labor. I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.
    I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our socialist economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either.
    I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.
    No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

  • Grace

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

    Bror – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Socialist – Definition

    1. An advocate of socialism.
    2. often Socialist A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

    Socialism – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIALISM – it is socialist to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIALISM, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIALIST experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIALISM.

  • Grace

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

    Bror – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Socialist – Definition

    1. An advocate of socialism.
    2. often Socialist A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

    Socialism – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIALISM – it is socialist to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIALISM, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIALIST experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIALISM.

  • Grace

    Bror –

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

    Bror – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Socialist – Definition

    1. An advocate of socialism.
    2. often Socialist A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

    Socialism – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIALISM – it is socialist to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIALISM, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIALIST experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIALISM.

  • Grace

    Bror –

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

    Bror – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Socialist – Definition

    1. An advocate of socialism.
    2. often Socialist A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

    Socialism – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIALISM – it is socialist to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIALISM, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIALIST experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIALISM.

  • Grace

    Bror –

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

    Bror – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing “s……..,” and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Socia____” – Definition

    1. An advocate of socia____”
    2. often Socia____ A member of a political party or group that advocates social____”.

    Socia____ – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capital____ and commu____, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIAL____ – it is socia____ to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIAL____, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIAL____ experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIAL____.

  • Grace

    Bror –

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

    Bror – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing “s……..,” and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Socia____” – Definition

    1. An advocate of socia____”
    2. often Socia____ A member of a political party or group that advocates social____”.

    Socia____ – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capital____ and commu____, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIAL____ – it is socia____ to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIAL____, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIAL____ experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIAL____.

  • Grace

    Bror – 138 – that fits right in with illegal – break the law, then reward them.

  • Grace

    Bror – 138 – that fits right in with illegal – break the law, then reward them.

  • Grace

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIAL____ experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIAL____.

  • Grace

    Bror “No, Tom, I don’t begrudge a person for wanting to work. I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.

    Bror, ….. this rates right up there with your “Margarita’s and Corona beer” comment further up the thread, makes one wonder….

    How many illegal aliens are you willing to take in your home, maybe you can all have a ‘bed making contest’ and then cook dinner – YOU of course footing the bills for food, health ins, education and anything else they might need. Sounds like a neat little SOCIAL____ experiment. Let us know how it goes – you might need to get a second job, or maybe your congregation can join you, each taking a family into their home. All of you spreading the wealth for those who will take everything they can get, and then sending it back home, and brining more of their relatives to join them. You’ll need to build extra bedrooms and bath’s for all these people, that my friend is SOCIAL____.

  • Grace

    LAW ABIDING?

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    “LAW ABIDING” – No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

  • Grace

    LAW ABIDING?

    Bror – 138 – “I think it unjust for us to harass otherwise law abiding citizens and give them no chance to become citizens, thereby exposing them to all sorts of indecent exploitation.”

    “LAW ABIDING” – No Bror – they are NOT “law abiding citizens” – they broke our laws when they entered this country illegally. They broke the laws when they obtain false documents, they break the laws when they lie to employers, then handing them false ID’s – it’s a lie and cheating. And YOU admonish those of us who abide by the laws, who do not want to support them in any way.

  • Grace

    Bror – 138 – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of social____ policies, are defended by increasing social____, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Social____ – Definition

    1. An advocate of social____
    2. often Socia____ A member of a political party or group that advocates social____.

    Social____ – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capital____ and commu____, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIAL____ – it is social____ to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIAL____, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

  • Grace

    Bror – 138 – “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of social____ policies, are defended by increasing social____, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy.”

    Bror –

    Social____ – Definition

    1. An advocate of social____
    2. often Socia____ A member of a political party or group that advocates social____.

    Social____ – Definition

    1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
    2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capital____ and commu____, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

    Your outcry in wanting others to pay for someone else’s criminal behavior, excusing it, IS SOCIAL____ – it is social____ to want others to ‘spread the wealth’ just as Obama advocates. Of course Bror, give those who break our laws, lie and steal what we have. You need to understand what SOCIAL____, what it represents before you hurl your make-shift ideas.

  • Tom Hering

    So, Bror, you don’t agree that our immigration laws are the law? Because, as they stand now, they are somehow (how?) the result of s0cialism?

  • Tom Hering

    So, Bror, you don’t agree that our immigration laws are the law? Because, as they stand now, they are somehow (how?) the result of s0cialism?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @Bror

    “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our socialist economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either. I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.”

    I actually agree with this.

    ” I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.”

    I am not afraid of the hotel maid. I am afraid of her boyfriend and her sons. She probably is, too. I posted the statistics.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @Bror

    “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our socialist economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either. I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.”

    I actually agree with this.

    ” I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.”

    I am not afraid of the hotel maid. I am afraid of her boyfriend and her sons. She probably is, too. I posted the statistics.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our socialist economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either.
    I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.”

    I actually agree with this.

    “I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.”

    I am not afraid of the hotel maid. I am afraid of her boyfriend and her sons. She probably is, too. I posted the statistics. 50% increase in prison population of hispanics in just 10 years. That is ten times the increase of other groups. It deserves an honest discussion without blaming american mothers for the problem.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of socialist policies, are defended by increasing socialism, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our socialist economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either.
    I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.”

    I actually agree with this.

    “I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.”

    I am not afraid of the hotel maid. I am afraid of her boyfriend and her sons. She probably is, too. I posted the statistics. 50% increase in prison population of hispanics in just 10 years. That is ten times the increase of other groups. It deserves an honest discussion without blaming american mothers for the problem.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of social… policies, are defended by increasing social…, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our social… economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either.
    I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.”

    I actually agree with this.

    ” I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.”

    I don’t fear the hotel maid. I fear her boyfriend and her sons. She probably does too. I posted the statistics. 50% increase in hispanics incarcerated in the last ten years. Less than 5% increase among others. It warrants an honest and rational discussion without slandering american mothers who just want their kids safe.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I think the problem with sg and Grace and many like them is they fail to see that it is our laws that have created this situation. And for all their conservativism, should see that these laws are the result of social… policies, are defended by increasing social…, and are quite possibly the biggest threats we have to a free market economy. And in a sick and twisted way our social… economy has become dependent on us having them here, but not legally, illegally, and preferably without knowing English either.
    I personally would like to rethink social security, our health care system, etc, than keep going with the status quo.”

    I actually agree with this.

    ” I begrudge soccer mom’s who are scared of the hotel maid because she knows how to make a bed, and can probably cook dinner too.”

    I don’t fear the hotel maid. I fear her boyfriend and her sons. She probably does too. I posted the statistics. 50% increase in hispanics incarcerated in the last ten years. Less than 5% increase among others. It warrants an honest and rational discussion without slandering american mothers who just want their kids safe.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    It is good when debating, even heatedly, we start reaching agreement. I’m glad that we have come to the agreement that it is our laws and policies that have created the problem we now have.
    this discussion does warrant honest and rational discussion. If you don’t want American mothers slandered, than I propose we don’t also slander an entire ethnic group, or population that are being exploited by our laws and policies.
    My experience has been that this fear is largely the creation of hysterical racism that perpetuates itself and reads statistics favorable to it. The 50% increase couldn’t be due to a large influx of hispanics over the last 10 years could it. I’m sure at times there were 50% increases of the incarceration of the Irish (Know why they call it a Paddy Wagon? it was full of Paddies including the driver.) Swedes, Germans you name it. But the vast majority of these people proved themselves over time to be law abiding. I don’t have any sympathy for the gangbangers etc. None.
    But the rhetoric you and Grace have been spewing thus far has been one that does not distinguish the drug dealer from the construction worker, and has been incredibly reminiscent of Nazi propaganda demonizing whole swaths of people as being less intelligent and more prone to criminal activity. And I won’t have a rational discussion that follows those lines because those lines are irrational to anyone who has ever had an illegal alien pour concrete for them, or has worked along side an illegal alien stuccoing a house, or purchased the produce they pick, and seen people from that same culture overcome all the bigotry thrown at them to create a company and succeed in our economy, contributing to the our national gross product.
    So if you want rational, check your hysteria at the door, sober up with a corona, do something with it and we can talk.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Sg,
    It is good when debating, even heatedly, we start reaching agreement. I’m glad that we have come to the agreement that it is our laws and policies that have created the problem we now have.
    this discussion does warrant honest and rational discussion. If you don’t want American mothers slandered, than I propose we don’t also slander an entire ethnic group, or population that are being exploited by our laws and policies.
    My experience has been that this fear is largely the creation of hysterical racism that perpetuates itself and reads statistics favorable to it. The 50% increase couldn’t be due to a large influx of hispanics over the last 10 years could it. I’m sure at times there were 50% increases of the incarceration of the Irish (Know why they call it a Paddy Wagon? it was full of Paddies including the driver.) Swedes, Germans you name it. But the vast majority of these people proved themselves over time to be law abiding. I don’t have any sympathy for the gangbangers etc. None.
    But the rhetoric you and Grace have been spewing thus far has been one that does not distinguish the drug dealer from the construction worker, and has been incredibly reminiscent of Nazi propaganda demonizing whole swaths of people as being less intelligent and more prone to criminal activity. And I won’t have a rational discussion that follows those lines because those lines are irrational to anyone who has ever had an illegal alien pour concrete for them, or has worked along side an illegal alien stuccoing a house, or purchased the produce they pick, and seen people from that same culture overcome all the bigotry thrown at them to create a company and succeed in our economy, contributing to the our national gross product.
    So if you want rational, check your hysteria at the door, sober up with a corona, do something with it and we can talk.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    You need to take a class in reading comprehension.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    You need to take a class in reading comprehension.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Bror,

    The data don’t lie. The pattern is consistent over time. Check out statistics from NAEP, SAT, DoJ, whatever you like. Saying different groups don’t have different statistical norms simply isn’t true. There is no data to support that position. We can still love and serve our neighbors even while acknowledging the truth. We don’t have to just say something isn’t so because we wish it weren’t. Telling the truth is not slander. I feel you are wrong compare rational acknowledgement of evidence based on unbiased data sources to propaganda. I do not advocate persecuting people. I advocate protecting ourselves from criminals. I do not advocate anything more that what Tom proposed in comment 131.

    Finally, I seriously doubt the hispanic population increased 50% in 10 years. More like just the criminal hispanic population increased by 50% due to lax enforcement on the border. I advocate enforcing the laws and restrictions passed by our duly elected representatives. Plain old law and order based on representative democracy. Very ordinary and reasonable.

    However, I still ask whether some believe that high functioning, low crime societies should take in people from low functioning, high crime societies. I still ask whether there is a rational basis for doing so.

    I would be interested in data on Irish crime if you have any. Data, not anecdote. Let’s not slander the Irish without the evidence.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Bror,

    The data don’t lie. The pattern is consistent over time. Check out statistics from NAEP, SAT, DoJ, whatever you like. Saying different groups don’t have different statistical norms simply isn’t true. There is no data to support that position. We can still love and serve our neighbors even while acknowledging the truth. We don’t have to just say something isn’t so because we wish it weren’t. Telling the truth is not slander. I feel you are wrong compare rational acknowledgement of evidence based on unbiased data sources to propaganda. I do not advocate persecuting people. I advocate protecting ourselves from criminals. I do not advocate anything more that what Tom proposed in comment 131.

    Finally, I seriously doubt the hispanic population increased 50% in 10 years. More like just the criminal hispanic population increased by 50% due to lax enforcement on the border. I advocate enforcing the laws and restrictions passed by our duly elected representatives. Plain old law and order based on representative democracy. Very ordinary and reasonable.

    However, I still ask whether some believe that high functioning, low crime societies should take in people from low functioning, high crime societies. I still ask whether there is a rational basis for doing so.

    I would be interested in data on Irish crime if you have any. Data, not anecdote. Let’s not slander the Irish without the evidence.

  • kerner

    sg @129:

    I guess I’d like to address your questions:

    Because you fear criminals?

    Bror kind of beat me to it on this one. It seems to me that you do not simply fear criminals. You fear an entire ethnic group. Although @143 you modified that somewhat by indicating that you only fear the males of that ethnic group. This is simply bigotry sg, can’t you see that? I know you say that you are just looking at data and trends, but you attitude goes deeper than that. You are looking at only some of the data and allowing yourself to see “trends” that are not as simple as you say. And as Bror points out about the Irish, the same “data” and “trends” have been present for the Irish, and many other ethnic groups, that turned out just fine once they assimilated, and who helped improve this country. But you refuse to see any of that and have become a prisoner of your fear.

    Because you look at the data and see trends?

    Once again, sg, not only are you seeing “trends” that were there for other ethnic groups, you are not even considering all the data. For example, you looked at the data that from the LA public school system and conclude that hispanics are undesirables. Aside from the fact that the LA school system has a lot of problems unrelated to a large hispanic population, you have neglected to look at all the data as a whole.

    I looked into hispanic academic achievement more broadly than you, and part of what I found was that hispanics (as you suggest) do not as a group achieve as well academically as white Americans (Asians are the highest academic achievers, statistically). But hispanics achieve in other positive ways disproportionate to their numbers. In my modest research, I found 2 such ways. The first positive data I found indicated that hispanic men now make up about 27% of workers in skilled trades. This is about twice their percentage of the general population, and the largest percentage of any ethnic group. And I am not surprised. We have discussed the value Jewish culture places on higher education. East Asian cultures place a similar value on it and this is why they out pace Caucasians. American society generally has emphasised professional education over skilled technical training, and this has resulted in a shortage of skilled workers. But much of what I have read and seen myself about hispanic workers is that they work hard at skilled and unskilled manual work. They are more productive in these fields than other workers. These are generalizations, but like other stereotypes, there is enough reality there to create them. Whenever the productivity of hispanic workers is mentioned, anti-hispanic people start to say that they are being exploited, and maybe sometimes they are, especially by under the table work for illegals. But a big component of these claims of exploitation is lazy American workers who don’t want competition from harder working hispanics.

    Another place you see a disproportionate number of hispanics is the military. The enlisted ranks of the USMC are now 18%, which is higher than their percentage of the general population, and includes immigrants and even illegal ones. I remember reading somewhere (although I couldn’t find it today) that hispanics are the most highly decorated ethnic group in recent years. Good, brave and honorable military men is certainly something this country can use more of. Bror remembers serving with such hispanics in the Air Force, and my kids confirm his experience in the USMC. The irony of this is that (on a percentage basis anyway) hispanics are doing more to protect you and your children that white people are.

    But my whole problem with this whole argument (from you and from me) is that looking for “trends” is a foolish way to approach this. We SHOULD be looking at individuals, not groups. While just building a fence and trying to keep them all out is stupid, just letting them all in is equally stupid. We should be putting our efforts into screening out undesirables.

  • kerner

    sg @129:

    I guess I’d like to address your questions:

    Because you fear criminals?

    Bror kind of beat me to it on this one. It seems to me that you do not simply fear criminals. You fear an entire ethnic group. Although @143 you modified that somewhat by indicating that you only fear the males of that ethnic group. This is simply bigotry sg, can’t you see that? I know you say that you are just looking at data and trends, but you attitude goes deeper than that. You are looking at only some of the data and allowing yourself to see “trends” that are not as simple as you say. And as Bror points out about the Irish, the same “data” and “trends” have been present for the Irish, and many other ethnic groups, that turned out just fine once they assimilated, and who helped improve this country. But you refuse to see any of that and have become a prisoner of your fear.

    Because you look at the data and see trends?

    Once again, sg, not only are you seeing “trends” that were there for other ethnic groups, you are not even considering all the data. For example, you looked at the data that from the LA public school system and conclude that hispanics are undesirables. Aside from the fact that the LA school system has a lot of problems unrelated to a large hispanic population, you have neglected to look at all the data as a whole.

    I looked into hispanic academic achievement more broadly than you, and part of what I found was that hispanics (as you suggest) do not as a group achieve as well academically as white Americans (Asians are the highest academic achievers, statistically). But hispanics achieve in other positive ways disproportionate to their numbers. In my modest research, I found 2 such ways. The first positive data I found indicated that hispanic men now make up about 27% of workers in skilled trades. This is about twice their percentage of the general population, and the largest percentage of any ethnic group. And I am not surprised. We have discussed the value Jewish culture places on higher education. East Asian cultures place a similar value on it and this is why they out pace Caucasians. American society generally has emphasised professional education over skilled technical training, and this has resulted in a shortage of skilled workers. But much of what I have read and seen myself about hispanic workers is that they work hard at skilled and unskilled manual work. They are more productive in these fields than other workers. These are generalizations, but like other stereotypes, there is enough reality there to create them. Whenever the productivity of hispanic workers is mentioned, anti-hispanic people start to say that they are being exploited, and maybe sometimes they are, especially by under the table work for illegals. But a big component of these claims of exploitation is lazy American workers who don’t want competition from harder working hispanics.

    Another place you see a disproportionate number of hispanics is the military. The enlisted ranks of the USMC are now 18%, which is higher than their percentage of the general population, and includes immigrants and even illegal ones. I remember reading somewhere (although I couldn’t find it today) that hispanics are the most highly decorated ethnic group in recent years. Good, brave and honorable military men is certainly something this country can use more of. Bror remembers serving with such hispanics in the Air Force, and my kids confirm his experience in the USMC. The irony of this is that (on a percentage basis anyway) hispanics are doing more to protect you and your children that white people are.

    But my whole problem with this whole argument (from you and from me) is that looking for “trends” is a foolish way to approach this. We SHOULD be looking at individuals, not groups. While just building a fence and trying to keep them all out is stupid, just letting them all in is equally stupid. We should be putting our efforts into screening out undesirables.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “anyone who has ever had an illegal alien pour concrete for them, or has worked along side an illegal alien stuccoing a house, or purchased the produce they pick, and seen people from that same culture overcome all the bigotry thrown at them to create a company and succeed in our economy, contributing to the our national gross product.”

    Wouldn’t Mexico benefit from these good folks?

    Honest question, not trying to be a jerk.

    Wouldn’t Mexico do well to use its own human resources?

    This is what I call a low functioning society. It has some of what it needs to be successful, but doesn’t do what it needs to with it.

    Doesn’t it make sense for us to criticize Mexico for the log in their eye, while blaming the US for its domestic policies which were aimed at helping its own weaker citizens?

    Why no criticism for Mexico’s egregious failures in its highly inequitable society? Mexico has the highest wealth disparity between rich and poor of any country. I think they need a lecture from some ethnic studies professor on their own exploitation. Don’t look for Mexico to ease its immigration policies for the desperately poor central americans illegally entering Mexico. Why save all the criticism for american moms?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “anyone who has ever had an illegal alien pour concrete for them, or has worked along side an illegal alien stuccoing a house, or purchased the produce they pick, and seen people from that same culture overcome all the bigotry thrown at them to create a company and succeed in our economy, contributing to the our national gross product.”

    Wouldn’t Mexico benefit from these good folks?

    Honest question, not trying to be a jerk.

    Wouldn’t Mexico do well to use its own human resources?

    This is what I call a low functioning society. It has some of what it needs to be successful, but doesn’t do what it needs to with it.

    Doesn’t it make sense for us to criticize Mexico for the log in their eye, while blaming the US for its domestic policies which were aimed at helping its own weaker citizens?

    Why no criticism for Mexico’s egregious failures in its highly inequitable society? Mexico has the highest wealth disparity between rich and poor of any country. I think they need a lecture from some ethnic studies professor on their own exploitation. Don’t look for Mexico to ease its immigration policies for the desperately poor central americans illegally entering Mexico. Why save all the criticism for american moms?

  • kerner

    Because you don’t follow the cultural zeitgeist?

    Because you ask hard questions?

    I’m not sure what you mean by these questions. I think you have been pussyfooting around what you mean to say, because you know that a lot of people would be turned off if you were to just come out and claim that Hispanics are an inferior culture, and therefore should be excluded en masse.

    I don’t consider myself very politically correct, but I do not believe one ethnic culture is “better” than another. Different cultures, like individuals, tend to exhibit preferences for different sins. And certain cultures may not mix too well with certain other cultures. But I think that one of America’s achievements as a nation is to get all these different groups to blend enough to maintain our unity. Not that we do a perfect job of it.

    Have you read the data?

    Yes I have, and I am not afraid. Why should I be? (Now THERE’S a hard question!)

  • kerner

    Because you don’t follow the cultural zeitgeist?

    Because you ask hard questions?

    I’m not sure what you mean by these questions. I think you have been pussyfooting around what you mean to say, because you know that a lot of people would be turned off if you were to just come out and claim that Hispanics are an inferior culture, and therefore should be excluded en masse.

    I don’t consider myself very politically correct, but I do not believe one ethnic culture is “better” than another. Different cultures, like individuals, tend to exhibit preferences for different sins. And certain cultures may not mix too well with certain other cultures. But I think that one of America’s achievements as a nation is to get all these different groups to blend enough to maintain our unity. Not that we do a perfect job of it.

    Have you read the data?

    Yes I have, and I am not afraid. Why should I be? (Now THERE’S a hard question!)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This is simply bigotry sg, can’t you see that?”

    No it is not.

    Bigotry is hating and trying to harm folks who are different for no reason.

    I am advocating the enforcement of the official US government position on immigration.

    Fearing criminals is not bigotry. I only fear the criminals.

    There seems to be a conflation here of “hispanic” with the “incarcerated hispanics” cited in the DoJ statistics. Enforcing the official US government position on immigration would screen out most of the criminals because we don’t allow people with criminal records to enter legally.

    “Once again, sg, not only are you seeing “trends” that were there for other ethnic groups, you are not even considering all the data.”

    Really? Show me the all the data I missed. I am a stats junkie.

    “For example, you looked at the data that from the LA public school system and conclude that hispanics are undesirables.”

    No, I said they have trouble graduating from high school even with tremendous commitment from the community, $27k per student per year. I posted a Harvard study on this very topic.

    “Aside from the fact that the LA school system has a lot of problems unrelated to a large hispanic population, you have neglected to look at all the data as a whole.”

    Like what? Post a link to all this data. And check out the book, Bad Students, not Bad Schools.

    “But my whole problem with this whole argument (from you and from me) is that looking for “trends” is a foolish way to approach this.”

    No it isn’t. And you have not made a rational argument against it.

    “We SHOULD be looking at individuals, not groups.”

    Yes, of course. And that is exactly what immigration officials do. They check people out before they allow them to enter legally.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This is simply bigotry sg, can’t you see that?”

    No it is not.

    Bigotry is hating and trying to harm folks who are different for no reason.

    I am advocating the enforcement of the official US government position on immigration.

    Fearing criminals is not bigotry. I only fear the criminals.

    There seems to be a conflation here of “hispanic” with the “incarcerated hispanics” cited in the DoJ statistics. Enforcing the official US government position on immigration would screen out most of the criminals because we don’t allow people with criminal records to enter legally.

    “Once again, sg, not only are you seeing “trends” that were there for other ethnic groups, you are not even considering all the data.”

    Really? Show me the all the data I missed. I am a stats junkie.

    “For example, you looked at the data that from the LA public school system and conclude that hispanics are undesirables.”

    No, I said they have trouble graduating from high school even with tremendous commitment from the community, $27k per student per year. I posted a Harvard study on this very topic.

    “Aside from the fact that the LA school system has a lot of problems unrelated to a large hispanic population, you have neglected to look at all the data as a whole.”

    Like what? Post a link to all this data. And check out the book, Bad Students, not Bad Schools.

    “But my whole problem with this whole argument (from you and from me) is that looking for “trends” is a foolish way to approach this.”

    No it isn’t. And you have not made a rational argument against it.

    “We SHOULD be looking at individuals, not groups.”

    Yes, of course. And that is exactly what immigration officials do. They check people out before they allow them to enter legally.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Doesn’t it occur to you good people that the Mexicans who come here legally would also love to get away from the criminal element? They are the ones most often victimized by crime from their own group.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Doesn’t it occur to you good people that the Mexicans who come here legally would also love to get away from the criminal element? They are the ones most often victimized by crime from their own group.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Because you don’t just follow the cultural zeitgeist?

    Because you ask hard questions?

    I’m not sure what all that means.

    Have I read the data?

    Yes, I have, and I am not afraid of Mexicans. Why should I be?

    Couldn’t Mexico benefit from (the good traits of Mexican immigrants)?

    Sure it could. But Mexico’s loss is our gain. I’m sure Russia could benefit from all those well educated Jews that left Russia, but I don’t think we should have sent them back.

    What you are saying about Mexico is true of every country that ever experienced emigration: conditions are bad there (low functioning society) and that is why lots of people leave. Ours is a high functioning society that draws those people who want to live in one.

    And we have traditionally been willing to take them. There have always been people who were afraid that the newcomers would turn our country into their old one. But it has always worked more the other way around. The people with sense enough to want to leave Mexico don’t want to be in Mexico. If they did, they would have stayed there. They want to be in a place that’s better than Mexico, and a lot of them don’t want to screw the USA up by making it into a clone of Mexico. It’s the same reason the USA is not a clone of any of the other countries that all the other immigrants came from.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Because you don’t just follow the cultural zeitgeist?

    Because you ask hard questions?

    I’m not sure what all that means.

    Have I read the data?

    Yes, I have, and I am not afraid of Mexicans. Why should I be?

    Couldn’t Mexico benefit from (the good traits of Mexican immigrants)?

    Sure it could. But Mexico’s loss is our gain. I’m sure Russia could benefit from all those well educated Jews that left Russia, but I don’t think we should have sent them back.

    What you are saying about Mexico is true of every country that ever experienced emigration: conditions are bad there (low functioning society) and that is why lots of people leave. Ours is a high functioning society that draws those people who want to live in one.

    And we have traditionally been willing to take them. There have always been people who were afraid that the newcomers would turn our country into their old one. But it has always worked more the other way around. The people with sense enough to want to leave Mexico don’t want to be in Mexico. If they did, they would have stayed there. They want to be in a place that’s better than Mexico, and a lot of them don’t want to screw the USA up by making it into a clone of Mexico. It’s the same reason the USA is not a clone of any of the other countries that all the other immigrants came from.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The first positive data I found indicated that hispanic men now make up about 27% of workers in skilled trades.”

    How positive is that for the americans who were displaced by folks who work for less money? Especially blacks who were displaced. Kind of hard to support a family when the man is hiring illegals and undercutting you. This just goes back to what Bror said about exploitation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The first positive data I found indicated that hispanic men now make up about 27% of workers in skilled trades.”

    How positive is that for the americans who were displaced by folks who work for less money? Especially blacks who were displaced. Kind of hard to support a family when the man is hiring illegals and undercutting you. This just goes back to what Bror said about exploitation.

  • kerner

    “Doesn’t it occur to you good people that Mexicans who come here legally would also like to get away from the criminal element?”

    It would occur to me more if there were any Mexicans coming here legally.

    Under current law, if a Mexican is not married to an American, or closely related to one, or has a post graduate degree, there is no legal way for a Mexican to come here. This is why current immigration law is unacceptable. There SHOULD be a way for honest hispanics to come here legally. But there isn’t.

  • kerner

    “Doesn’t it occur to you good people that Mexicans who come here legally would also like to get away from the criminal element?”

    It would occur to me more if there were any Mexicans coming here legally.

    Under current law, if a Mexican is not married to an American, or closely related to one, or has a post graduate degree, there is no legal way for a Mexican to come here. This is why current immigration law is unacceptable. There SHOULD be a way for honest hispanics to come here legally. But there isn’t.

  • Tom Hering

    “There have always been people who were afraid that the newcomers would turn our country into their old one. But it has always worked more the other way around. The people with sense enough to want to leave Mexico don’t want to be in Mexico. If they did, they would have stayed there. They want to be in a place that’s better than Mexico, and a lot of them don’t want to screw the USA up by making it into a clone of Mexico. It’s the same reason the USA is not a clone of any of the other countries that all the other immigrants came from.” – kerner @ 151.

    That’s a superb argument. And we welcome them to come here, legally, the way the Irish, Russian Jews and others came here.

  • Tom Hering

    “There have always been people who were afraid that the newcomers would turn our country into their old one. But it has always worked more the other way around. The people with sense enough to want to leave Mexico don’t want to be in Mexico. If they did, they would have stayed there. They want to be in a place that’s better than Mexico, and a lot of them don’t want to screw the USA up by making it into a clone of Mexico. It’s the same reason the USA is not a clone of any of the other countries that all the other immigrants came from.” – kerner @ 151.

    That’s a superb argument. And we welcome them to come here, legally, the way the Irish, Russian Jews and others came here.

  • kerner

    High productivity is always good for the economy. Always.
    Nobody in America owns his job. We all have to compete. Any American, white, black, or Asian, who can’t compete with a poorly educated Mexican (who probably can’t read or write English) does not have my sympathy. Why should an American business have to hire a lazy person who doesn’t want to work hard when it can hire someone who does work hard?

    If an American from poor circumstances wants to support a family he should go to a trade school and learn a valuable skill and work hard. Such a person will beat out a foreigner every time. But too many Americans don’t want to do tis, so they are out competed by people who do.

  • kerner

    High productivity is always good for the economy. Always.
    Nobody in America owns his job. We all have to compete. Any American, white, black, or Asian, who can’t compete with a poorly educated Mexican (who probably can’t read or write English) does not have my sympathy. Why should an American business have to hire a lazy person who doesn’t want to work hard when it can hire someone who does work hard?

    If an American from poor circumstances wants to support a family he should go to a trade school and learn a valuable skill and work hard. Such a person will beat out a foreigner every time. But too many Americans don’t want to do tis, so they are out competed by people who do.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Kerner,@151
    I would also like to add that often the countries that experienc mass emigration in turn benefit from those who have emigrated. Sure mexico could use those good citizens. However, it is likely that in coming generations Mexico will benefit even more from these citizens because the Emigrated and gained new experiences, and education to share with those who did not emigrate.
    This sort of thing has happened in the past with countries such as Ireland, Sweden, and Norway to name a few.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Kerner,@151
    I would also like to add that often the countries that experienc mass emigration in turn benefit from those who have emigrated. Sure mexico could use those good citizens. However, it is likely that in coming generations Mexico will benefit even more from these citizens because the Emigrated and gained new experiences, and education to share with those who did not emigrate.
    This sort of thing has happened in the past with countries such as Ireland, Sweden, and Norway to name a few.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Tom,
    It is disingenuous to say we welcome them to come here legally when we put every obstacle possible in their path for them to do so. As Kerner notes there is no possibility for them to come here legally. None. So no we are not “welcoming” them.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Tom,
    It is disingenuous to say we welcome them to come here legally when we put every obstacle possible in their path for them to do so. As Kerner notes there is no possibility for them to come here legally. None. So no we are not “welcoming” them.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Have I read the data?

    Yes, I have,”

    Great. Post the links. I am honestly interested.

    “There have always been people who were afraid that the newcomers would turn our country into their old one. But it has always worked more the other way around.”

    No, it hasn’t. Right now it isn’t. Also, back then we didn’t have the social engineering schemes we have now. We are trillions in debt trying to pretend this will all work out soon, and then we will have a big dividend, but there is no real evidence that dividend will ever come.

    “I’m sure Russia could benefit from all those well educated Jews that left Russia, ”

    I am with you man. Let’s take in well educated Mexicans.

    “What you are saying about Mexico is true of every country that ever experienced emigration: conditions are bad there (low functioning society) ”

    No, it isn’t. People left Europe when it was leading the world in development of every kind. They left for religious reasons. They left to exploit other lands etc. They were high functioning.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Have I read the data?

    Yes, I have,”

    Great. Post the links. I am honestly interested.

    “There have always been people who were afraid that the newcomers would turn our country into their old one. But it has always worked more the other way around.”

    No, it hasn’t. Right now it isn’t. Also, back then we didn’t have the social engineering schemes we have now. We are trillions in debt trying to pretend this will all work out soon, and then we will have a big dividend, but there is no real evidence that dividend will ever come.

    “I’m sure Russia could benefit from all those well educated Jews that left Russia, ”

    I am with you man. Let’s take in well educated Mexicans.

    “What you are saying about Mexico is true of every country that ever experienced emigration: conditions are bad there (low functioning society) ”

    No, it isn’t. People left Europe when it was leading the world in development of every kind. They left for religious reasons. They left to exploit other lands etc. They were high functioning.

  • kerner

    Tom @ 154:

    “And we welcome them to come here legally…”

    Oh Tom. I usually respect your opinion, even when I disagree. But this is just false and (I won’t call you a liar, but you are at the very least repeating someone else’s lie) WE DO NOT WELCOME THEM TO COME HERE LEGALLY.

    There are no visas available to them legally and there won’t be until the laws change. How can you slam the door shut in someone’s face and then say he is “welcome”?

    If today’s laws were in effect when all those other people came, most of them wouldn’t have gotten in legally either.

  • kerner

    Tom @ 154:

    “And we welcome them to come here legally…”

    Oh Tom. I usually respect your opinion, even when I disagree. But this is just false and (I won’t call you a liar, but you are at the very least repeating someone else’s lie) WE DO NOT WELCOME THEM TO COME HERE LEGALLY.

    There are no visas available to them legally and there won’t be until the laws change. How can you slam the door shut in someone’s face and then say he is “welcome”?

    If today’s laws were in effect when all those other people came, most of them wouldn’t have gotten in legally either.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Think honestly. How many people from all over the world would come to the USA if only they could? 1 billion? 2 billion? Mexican come because they can. If Nigeria were on our border, they would too, but they can’t. Simple geography. There is no moral reason for allowing more Mexican immigration than Nigerian or Indian etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Think honestly. How many people from all over the world would come to the USA if only they could? 1 billion? 2 billion? Mexican come because they can. If Nigeria were on our border, they would too, but they can’t. Simple geography. There is no moral reason for allowing more Mexican immigration than Nigerian or Indian etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sorry, Kerner, businesses know they can treat illegals badly because the illegals fear deportation. If they treated Americans like that, they would be reported and fined. It is exploitation.

    Hey, Bror, still no criticism for Mexico and its government? How come they don’t have to be a good global citizen? Why is everything always our fault? Why such low expectations for them? Aren’t they able to do better? If they are, shouldn’t we expect them to do better?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sorry, Kerner, businesses know they can treat illegals badly because the illegals fear deportation. If they treated Americans like that, they would be reported and fined. It is exploitation.

    Hey, Bror, still no criticism for Mexico and its government? How come they don’t have to be a good global citizen? Why is everything always our fault? Why such low expectations for them? Aren’t they able to do better? If they are, shouldn’t we expect them to do better?

  • Tom Hering

    Sorry, Bror @ 157, but your retort doesn’t wash with me. I’m a first-generation American. My father, a Polish Army officer and POW in WWII, served as a liaison for the U.S. Army after the war. Even with his service to the U.S. (he was buried with military honors) it took seven years for him, my mother and my sister to get into this country. They first had to learn to read and write English, correctly answer questions about our history and government, and pass extensive background checks by the FBI. Now, why should it be any easier for people from Mexico? What obstacles are in their path that my family didn’t have to overcome? And if people from Mexico – for some reason or another – deserve an easier time of it, what does that say to all the immigrants who’ve done the hard work of getting here legally? Were they somehow less deserving of sympathy and citizenship?

  • Tom Hering

    Sorry, Bror @ 157, but your retort doesn’t wash with me. I’m a first-generation American. My father, a Polish Army officer and POW in WWII, served as a liaison for the U.S. Army after the war. Even with his service to the U.S. (he was buried with military honors) it took seven years for him, my mother and my sister to get into this country. They first had to learn to read and write English, correctly answer questions about our history and government, and pass extensive background checks by the FBI. Now, why should it be any easier for people from Mexico? What obstacles are in their path that my family didn’t have to overcome? And if people from Mexico – for some reason or another – deserve an easier time of it, what does that say to all the immigrants who’ve done the hard work of getting here legally? Were they somehow less deserving of sympathy and citizenship?

  • Tom Hering

    J @ 158, that’s a ridiculous argument. If they were allowed in at Ellis Island, they came in legally – invited or not.

  • Tom Hering

    J @ 158, that’s a ridiculous argument. If they were allowed in at Ellis Island, they came in legally – invited or not.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Under current law, if a Mexican is not married to an American, or closely related to one, or has a post graduate degree, there is no legal way for a Mexican to come here.”

    Uh, so how do Nigerians come?

    “This is why current immigration law is unacceptable.”

    Why?

    “There SHOULD be a way for honest hispanics to come here legally.”

    Why?

    I am honest. I can’t emigrate.

    Why should anyone have the right to move to someone else’s country?

    This is an honest, philosophical question.

    Are the citizens sovereign in their own country or not?

    Why should any country feel obligated to take anyone ever?

    Also, J is right. The Homestead Act encouraged immigration by farmers to grow and improve the economy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Under current law, if a Mexican is not married to an American, or closely related to one, or has a post graduate degree, there is no legal way for a Mexican to come here.”

    Uh, so how do Nigerians come?

    “This is why current immigration law is unacceptable.”

    Why?

    “There SHOULD be a way for honest hispanics to come here legally.”

    Why?

    I am honest. I can’t emigrate.

    Why should anyone have the right to move to someone else’s country?

    This is an honest, philosophical question.

    Are the citizens sovereign in their own country or not?

    Why should any country feel obligated to take anyone ever?

    Also, J is right. The Homestead Act encouraged immigration by farmers to grow and improve the economy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Tom, J is right about quotas limiting how many and from which countries.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Tom, J is right about quotas limiting how many and from which countries.

  • kerner

    “People left Europe when it was leading the world in development of every kind…They were high functioning.”

    All of Europe was not “high functioning”, and even those parts that were high functioning didn’t function at a high level for everyone. For example, Russia, which isn’t even really European, wasn’t functioning highly at all. Sure, the Czarist aristocracy lived on the same technological level as aristocrats in, say, England. But the peasants lived in one room huts with dirt floors and starved, just like poor people in Asia, Africa, or Latin America. The Jewish and the Polish immigrants wanted to be “high functioning”, but the tyranical political and economic system kept them at much lower functioning levels than they othderwise would have been. So they broke out of the conditions that kept them at a low functioning level, and came here for a chance to function at a higher level. As others have noted, Jews tended to pursue higher education as a means of reaching that higher level of functioning. The Poles tended to pursue more blue collar occupations, but they still raised their functioning level a lot. Mexicans may tend to be more like the Poles than the Jews in this respect, but I see no reason why they won’t do as well as the Poles did (unless, as you fear, the growth of government and the welfare state poisons the whole thing for all of us).

    But even you have just admitted that the rich in Mexico are “functioning” just fine. It’s the poor schmoes the rich are holding back that are having troubles with their functioning. And most are coming here for the same reasons the Poles did. They want to get out of their one room huts and function at a higher level.

  • kerner

    “People left Europe when it was leading the world in development of every kind…They were high functioning.”

    All of Europe was not “high functioning”, and even those parts that were high functioning didn’t function at a high level for everyone. For example, Russia, which isn’t even really European, wasn’t functioning highly at all. Sure, the Czarist aristocracy lived on the same technological level as aristocrats in, say, England. But the peasants lived in one room huts with dirt floors and starved, just like poor people in Asia, Africa, or Latin America. The Jewish and the Polish immigrants wanted to be “high functioning”, but the tyranical political and economic system kept them at much lower functioning levels than they othderwise would have been. So they broke out of the conditions that kept them at a low functioning level, and came here for a chance to function at a higher level. As others have noted, Jews tended to pursue higher education as a means of reaching that higher level of functioning. The Poles tended to pursue more blue collar occupations, but they still raised their functioning level a lot. Mexicans may tend to be more like the Poles than the Jews in this respect, but I see no reason why they won’t do as well as the Poles did (unless, as you fear, the growth of government and the welfare state poisons the whole thing for all of us).

    But even you have just admitted that the rich in Mexico are “functioning” just fine. It’s the poor schmoes the rich are holding back that are having troubles with their functioning. And most are coming here for the same reasons the Poles did. They want to get out of their one room huts and function at a higher level.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg,
    With a little research you would probably find that it isn’t that hard for one to emigrate from the U.S. Unlike the barbed wire that surrounded my high school, the the Iron Curtain, whatever fences we have along our borders are meant to keep others out, not us in.
    People Emigrate for various reasons all the time.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg,
    With a little research you would probably find that it isn’t that hard for one to emigrate from the U.S. Unlike the barbed wire that surrounded my high school, the the Iron Curtain, whatever fences we have along our borders are meant to keep others out, not us in.
    People Emigrate for various reasons all the time.

  • Grace

    Squatters rights! That is the some total of breaking the law coming across the border, expecting to live in the United Sates without permission. The pro illegal immigrant folks, are following the pack of progressives, believing that there is a pony in the mess somewhere, however the point being, there is nothing in the ‘mess’ worth defending, it stinks!

    These same people who the pseudo progressives extend their understanding (including criminal acts, lying, cheating) defend illegal aliens as worthy. If illegals worked as hard within their own countries, as they do, conniving to come here they would see their own homelands begin to flourish and thrive, INSTEAD, they come here looking for a free ride. Drop the house cleaners, and the gardner act, there is more regarding the deceit. They aren’t all of the aforementioned groups.

    Those who came to the USA from every country in the world, worked hard, they planted and worked, endured hard winters, illness and disease , they built places to live, be they ever so humble …….they knew it would be a struggle. It’s no different regarding those south of the border, they have a lot of excuses but they don’t make sense – ask any group of college or older, men and women who have traveled to Mexico and other countries, working on buildings, repairing, etc. Why can’t those who live there do the same thing? There is no reason why these people continue sit in the same situation year after year. Yes there is corruption and crime in these countries, but many times those same people bring that agenda to this country, our prisons are full of them – with excuses!

  • Grace

    Squatters rights! That is the some total of breaking the law coming across the border, expecting to live in the United Sates without permission. The pro illegal immigrant folks, are following the pack of progressives, believing that there is a pony in the mess somewhere, however the point being, there is nothing in the ‘mess’ worth defending, it stinks!

    These same people who the pseudo progressives extend their understanding (including criminal acts, lying, cheating) defend illegal aliens as worthy. If illegals worked as hard within their own countries, as they do, conniving to come here they would see their own homelands begin to flourish and thrive, INSTEAD, they come here looking for a free ride. Drop the house cleaners, and the gardner act, there is more regarding the deceit. They aren’t all of the aforementioned groups.

    Those who came to the USA from every country in the world, worked hard, they planted and worked, endured hard winters, illness and disease , they built places to live, be they ever so humble …….they knew it would be a struggle. It’s no different regarding those south of the border, they have a lot of excuses but they don’t make sense – ask any group of college or older, men and women who have traveled to Mexico and other countries, working on buildings, repairing, etc. Why can’t those who live there do the same thing? There is no reason why these people continue sit in the same situation year after year. Yes there is corruption and crime in these countries, but many times those same people bring that agenda to this country, our prisons are full of them – with excuses!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, name a non-Euro country that was higher functioning than Russia at the time. Fine, Russia, was not ranked number one. I got that. However, it was no where near the bottom.

    J,
    “There are obstacles now that your ancestors never faced, and had they done so, likely would never have entered the US. You simply can’t compare then and now and say that everyone ‘then’ entered legally. Except for the Chinese, no group was excluded, so you couldn’t really enter illegally.”

    The government was actively soliciting immigration. The government was acting with the consent of the citizens. Now the citizens have mandated a new policy of exclusion. That is what the citizens want. We don’t want open borders. We have the right to say, no.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, name a non-Euro country that was higher functioning than Russia at the time. Fine, Russia, was not ranked number one. I got that. However, it was no where near the bottom.

    J,
    “There are obstacles now that your ancestors never faced, and had they done so, likely would never have entered the US. You simply can’t compare then and now and say that everyone ‘then’ entered legally. Except for the Chinese, no group was excluded, so you couldn’t really enter illegally.”

    The government was actively soliciting immigration. The government was acting with the consent of the citizens. Now the citizens have mandated a new policy of exclusion. That is what the citizens want. We don’t want open borders. We have the right to say, no.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The sum total of this discussion

    1) No criticism of Mexico or Mexicans

    2) It is the USA’s fault

    3) US citizens have no sovereignty

    4) Immigration is good even if it brings criminals and displaces American workers

    5) Don’t agree? You’re a bigot

    Yup, post rational, post modern.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The sum total of this discussion

    1) No criticism of Mexico or Mexicans

    2) It is the USA’s fault

    3) US citizens have no sovereignty

    4) Immigration is good even if it brings criminals and displaces American workers

    5) Don’t agree? You’re a bigot

    Yup, post rational, post modern.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I vote we all read Dr. Veith’s book on post modern thought:

    http://astore.amazon.com/cranach-20/detail/0891077685

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I vote we all read Dr. Veith’s book on post modern thought:

    http://astore.amazon.com/cranach-20/detail/0891077685

  • kerner

    sg

    “…still no criticism for Mexico and its government? Hoe come they don’t have to be a good global citizen? Why is everything our fault? (etc.)”

    What has all that got to do with anything? Mexico’s government is corrupt and its policies have a lot to do with creating the poverty that exists there. I’m not a liberal and I don’t consider myself (or my country) a global citizen at all. And everything is not our fault. We don’t admit immigrants for any of those reasons. We admit them because it has been our way of building a strong and successful country. We admit them because we are not a country based on ethnicity, but on principles.

    It is true that illegals can be exploited by employers. Make them legal (assuming there are no other grounds for deportation). Problem solved.

  • kerner

    sg

    “…still no criticism for Mexico and its government? Hoe come they don’t have to be a good global citizen? Why is everything our fault? (etc.)”

    What has all that got to do with anything? Mexico’s government is corrupt and its policies have a lot to do with creating the poverty that exists there. I’m not a liberal and I don’t consider myself (or my country) a global citizen at all. And everything is not our fault. We don’t admit immigrants for any of those reasons. We admit them because it has been our way of building a strong and successful country. We admit them because we are not a country based on ethnicity, but on principles.

    It is true that illegals can be exploited by employers. Make them legal (assuming there are no other grounds for deportation). Problem solved.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 174 – “We admit them because it has been our way of building a strong and successful country. We admit them because we are not a country based on ethnicity, but on principles.”

    You now consider “principles” – there is no ethical standard by which one could ever define lying, cheating or using false documentation to work and live in this country. Stealing that is defined by taking something that doesn’t belong to you, as in: education, health care – - its stealing.

    You need to understand what “principles” mean before you tie the knot with illegal aliens, wrapping their behavior in the mess from the barn. There is no pony!

  • Grace

    Kerner – 174 – “We admit them because it has been our way of building a strong and successful country. We admit them because we are not a country based on ethnicity, but on principles.”

    You now consider “principles” – there is no ethical standard by which one could ever define lying, cheating or using false documentation to work and live in this country. Stealing that is defined by taking something that doesn’t belong to you, as in: education, health care – - its stealing.

    You need to understand what “principles” mean before you tie the knot with illegal aliens, wrapping their behavior in the mess from the barn. There is no pony!

  • Tom Hering

    Now I understand the opposing argument. Whether it’s drugs or immigrants, if it’s illegal, make it legal – all problems solved.

  • Tom Hering

    Now I understand the opposing argument. Whether it’s drugs or immigrants, if it’s illegal, make it legal – all problems solved.

  • Grace

    Tom – 176 – “Now I understand the opposing argument. Whether it’s drugs or immigrants, if it’s illegal, make it legal – all problems solved.” </blockquote.

    YEP – a free for all, everyone has an excuse, no matter what crime they commit –

    Problem solved – free rides for everyone!

  • Grace

    Tom – 176 – “Now I understand the opposing argument. Whether it’s drugs or immigrants, if it’s illegal, make it legal – all problems solved.” </blockquote.

    YEP – a free for all, everyone has an excuse, no matter what crime they commit –

    Problem solved – free rides for everyone!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We admit them because it has been our way of building a strong and successful country.”

    Huh? are you kidding? Have you seen their graduation rates?
    Hispanic males, 48%
    Fourth generation in the US have lower grad rates than second generation. Are you hoping for a docile permanent underclass to endlessly exploit? Not only is that immoral, it doesn’t work.

    “We admit them because we are not a country based on ethnicity, but on principles.”

    What principle?

    This is the question I keep asking. Why?

    Are we hoping for a population of 1 billion? Then how will we get off imported oil?

    “It is true that illegals can be exploited by employers. Make them legal (assuming there are no other grounds for deportation). Problem solved.”

    No, it won’t. If they were legal, they would have rights. That would immediately lower their desirability to the type of unscrupulous folks who hire them.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We admit them because it has been our way of building a strong and successful country.”

    Huh? are you kidding? Have you seen their graduation rates?
    Hispanic males, 48%
    Fourth generation in the US have lower grad rates than second generation. Are you hoping for a docile permanent underclass to endlessly exploit? Not only is that immoral, it doesn’t work.

    “We admit them because we are not a country based on ethnicity, but on principles.”

    What principle?

    This is the question I keep asking. Why?

    Are we hoping for a population of 1 billion? Then how will we get off imported oil?

    “It is true that illegals can be exploited by employers. Make them legal (assuming there are no other grounds for deportation). Problem solved.”

    No, it won’t. If they were legal, they would have rights. That would immediately lower their desirability to the type of unscrupulous folks who hire them.

  • kerner

    sg@171:

    “Name a non Euro Country that was functioning better that Russia at the time?”

    Japan, Argentina were better.

    Australia became a commonwealth in 1900 I think, but you probably consider it culturally European, and I couldn’t argue. As with Canada. The independent parts of South Africa were better for the Boers, but not so great for the black Africans.

    Other countries, like the Ottoman Empire or Siam were so radically different that it would be hard to compare them, but you could argue that they were about the same. Maybe parts of Brazil, but so much of that was wild and unsettled. This may be also true of other Latin American countries. I am not ssure what Iran was like 1n 1900, but it might have been about the same as Russia (don’t hold me to that, I need to research it). Most of the rest of the world was being colonized by Europeans, who were at that time technologically superior.

    In 1880, Mexico might have been better than Russia, but by 1900, Mexico was definitely worse, because there had been a revolution and there was anarchy for 20 years.

  • kerner

    sg@171:

    “Name a non Euro Country that was functioning better that Russia at the time?”

    Japan, Argentina were better.

    Australia became a commonwealth in 1900 I think, but you probably consider it culturally European, and I couldn’t argue. As with Canada. The independent parts of South Africa were better for the Boers, but not so great for the black Africans.

    Other countries, like the Ottoman Empire or Siam were so radically different that it would be hard to compare them, but you could argue that they were about the same. Maybe parts of Brazil, but so much of that was wild and unsettled. This may be also true of other Latin American countries. I am not ssure what Iran was like 1n 1900, but it might have been about the same as Russia (don’t hold me to that, I need to research it). Most of the rest of the world was being colonized by Europeans, who were at that time technologically superior.

    In 1880, Mexico might have been better than Russia, but by 1900, Mexico was definitely worse, because there had been a revolution and there was anarchy for 20 years.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    Other than Japan, every country you listed that was better that Russia was populated by Europeans.

    Quick, name a significant contribution from the Ottoman Empire or anyone who came from there.

    Now, repeat with Russia.

    No contest.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    Other than Japan, every country you listed that was better that Russia was populated by Europeans.

    Quick, name a significant contribution from the Ottoman Empire or anyone who came from there.

    Now, repeat with Russia.

    No contest.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The independent parts of South Africa were better for the Boers, but not so great for the black Africans.”

    South Africa was sparsely populated till Europeans arrived and made it prosperous. Then Africans started moving there because the Europeans developed it and there was food, trade, employment, etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The independent parts of South Africa were better for the Boers, but not so great for the black Africans.”

    South Africa was sparsely populated till Europeans arrived and made it prosperous. Then Africans started moving there because the Europeans developed it and there was food, trade, employment, etc.

  • Grace

    There is no comparison by citing two, three hundred years ago, or the last century. The problem with the Mexican border is: it is connected by land, giving easy access to anyone who wanted to walk over the border. Our country is saturated, we cannot contain the peoples from these countries as they DEMAND RIGHTS, and then the LIBERALS back them up.

    What I’m reading on this blog, is primarily made up of progressives, posing as conservative, while turning a blind eye to stealing, lying, deceit, tagging as ‘conservative’.

    This is nothing but pseudo conservatives, with LIBERAL written all over it.

  • Grace

    There is no comparison by citing two, three hundred years ago, or the last century. The problem with the Mexican border is: it is connected by land, giving easy access to anyone who wanted to walk over the border. Our country is saturated, we cannot contain the peoples from these countries as they DEMAND RIGHTS, and then the LIBERALS back them up.

    What I’m reading on this blog, is primarily made up of progressives, posing as conservative, while turning a blind eye to stealing, lying, deceit, tagging as ‘conservative’.

    This is nothing but pseudo conservatives, with LIBERAL written all over it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “…still no criticism for Mexico and its government? Hoe come they don’t have to be a good global citizen? Why is everything our fault? (etc.)”

    “What has all that got to do with anything? Mexico’s government is corrupt and its policies have a lot to do with creating the poverty that exists there.”

    Yeah, what? Well, the Mexicans keep voting in these corrupt folks. I can hardly wait for them to vote in the same crap for us to have to endure.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “…still no criticism for Mexico and its government? Hoe come they don’t have to be a good global citizen? Why is everything our fault? (etc.)”

    “What has all that got to do with anything? Mexico’s government is corrupt and its policies have a lot to do with creating the poverty that exists there.”

    Yeah, what? Well, the Mexicans keep voting in these corrupt folks. I can hardly wait for them to vote in the same crap for us to have to endure.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This is nothing but pseudo conservatives, with LIBERAL written all over it.”

    Yup, that is the Republican party.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This is nothing but pseudo conservatives, with LIBERAL written all over it.”

    Yup, that is the Republican party.

  • kerner

    sg @178:

    What is with your arguments? I tell you that immigrants make us stronger, and you try to argue that they aren’t doing well (graduation rates). I point out that they ARE doing well in some fields (skilled labor, the military), and you decide that’s bad because they are doing better than American natives. You can’t be against them because they are functioning too high AND too low at the same time. Not if you want to make sense anyway.

    “No it wouldn’t. If they were legal they would have rights…”

    Look, it may come as a shock to you but plenty of illegals have, or had before too much government intervention ruined the economy, regular jobs. The hotels, meat processing plants, and construction companies were (and some still are) full of them, to name just a few.

    Also, what we have going on here in employment is what always develops when the government tries to outlaw something for which there is a great demand: a black market. A lot of things that used to be illegal (booze, gambling, high interest loans) and run by organized crime have now become legal, and the power of organized crime has been greatly diminished. Plus, the people who were REALLY victimized by the organized criminals running these enterprises now, as you say, “have rights”. So, even if participating in drinking, gambling, or high interest borrowing generates negative consequences, these are limited by law.

    So, yeah, often times, making activities legal solves a lot of problems. And, yeah, reducing the incentive to really exploit immigrant workers would be a good thing.

    But the general principle that a more productive worker is better for the economy than a less productive worker holds. Higher productivity means lower prices for everyone and more goods and services available to the average consumer.

    While we’re at it, remember that the housing market is depressed right now. The laws of supply and demand still apply to it. If 16,000,000 consumers suddenly leave the housing market, demand for housing is going to drop even more, and homes will be worth even less than now.

    I don’t know about foreign oil, but there are plenty of industries that would love to expand their customer bases.

  • kerner

    sg @178:

    What is with your arguments? I tell you that immigrants make us stronger, and you try to argue that they aren’t doing well (graduation rates). I point out that they ARE doing well in some fields (skilled labor, the military), and you decide that’s bad because they are doing better than American natives. You can’t be against them because they are functioning too high AND too low at the same time. Not if you want to make sense anyway.

    “No it wouldn’t. If they were legal they would have rights…”

    Look, it may come as a shock to you but plenty of illegals have, or had before too much government intervention ruined the economy, regular jobs. The hotels, meat processing plants, and construction companies were (and some still are) full of them, to name just a few.

    Also, what we have going on here in employment is what always develops when the government tries to outlaw something for which there is a great demand: a black market. A lot of things that used to be illegal (booze, gambling, high interest loans) and run by organized crime have now become legal, and the power of organized crime has been greatly diminished. Plus, the people who were REALLY victimized by the organized criminals running these enterprises now, as you say, “have rights”. So, even if participating in drinking, gambling, or high interest borrowing generates negative consequences, these are limited by law.

    So, yeah, often times, making activities legal solves a lot of problems. And, yeah, reducing the incentive to really exploit immigrant workers would be a good thing.

    But the general principle that a more productive worker is better for the economy than a less productive worker holds. Higher productivity means lower prices for everyone and more goods and services available to the average consumer.

    While we’re at it, remember that the housing market is depressed right now. The laws of supply and demand still apply to it. If 16,000,000 consumers suddenly leave the housing market, demand for housing is going to drop even more, and homes will be worth even less than now.

    I don’t know about foreign oil, but there are plenty of industries that would love to expand their customer bases.

  • kerner

    sg:

    What do you mean, no contest. We’re talking about circa 1900. The Ottoman Empire was in decline then and wasn’t producing any significant contributions that I know of.

    But neither was Russia. Name one significant contribution to come out of Russia circa 1900. For that matter, name one significant contribution to come out of Ireland circa 1840. People who left those places to come here produced, but the places themselves produced jack squat at those times, because the low functioning systems there were holding the high functioners back. Which is similar to Mexico now.

    And Mexico was “populated by Europeans” the same way most Latin American countries were. But you don’t see them that way.

  • kerner

    sg:

    What do you mean, no contest. We’re talking about circa 1900. The Ottoman Empire was in decline then and wasn’t producing any significant contributions that I know of.

    But neither was Russia. Name one significant contribution to come out of Russia circa 1900. For that matter, name one significant contribution to come out of Ireland circa 1840. People who left those places to come here produced, but the places themselves produced jack squat at those times, because the low functioning systems there were holding the high functioners back. Which is similar to Mexico now.

    And Mexico was “populated by Europeans” the same way most Latin American countries were. But you don’t see them that way.

  • Grace

    SG – 187 – “Yup, that is the Republican party.”

    No it isn’t, you’ve got it backwards ….. The pseudo conservatives, with LIBERAL written all over it, are those of the liberal party (Democrats) the progressives – - there are a few posting on this thread.

  • Grace

    SG – 187 – “Yup, that is the Republican party.”

    No it isn’t, you’ve got it backwards ….. The pseudo conservatives, with LIBERAL written all over it, are those of the liberal party (Democrats) the progressives – - there are a few posting on this thread.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    Displaced American workers don’t disappear. They collect 99 weeks of unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid.

    The illegal immigrant also has kids with his girlfriend who gets food stamps and WIC and Medicaid and public education.

    It all has to be paid for. Plus citizens should be sovereign in their own country. They shouldn’t have to compete with foreigners in their own country.

    Please consider the Constitution:

    “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    “to ourselves and our Posterity”

    Not to every foreigner who wants free stuff and a better life paid for by us.

    There is no moral imperative for welcoming immigrants. These folks aren’t starving. Life expectancy in Mexico is 72. Mexico knows exactly what it is doing. They use the US safety net to dump their weakest citizens so that they don’t have a revolution. If they couldn’t come here, they would likely put much more pressure on their own government.

    “While we’re at it, remember that the housing market is depressed right now.”

    It’s going to stay that way, too.

    “The laws of supply and demand still apply to it. If 16,000,000 consumers suddenly leave the housing market, demand for housing is going to drop even more, and homes will be worth even less than now.”

    Ugh, these folks never were part of the “demand”. Demand is defined as willing and able to pay. They were never able to pay. Therefore they were never part of aggregate demand. The housing bubble was a Clinton/Bush pipe dream based on the false premise that people will develop ethics if you artificially entice them to become homeowners. In fact minorities at the same income level defaulted at twice the rate of whites.

    Kerner, it is all wishful thinking. I truly sympathize with where you are with this argument emotionally because I really love people regardless of their abilities. However, I learned from hard knocks in life, it is better to just face the truth. This is one of those hard truths in life. The growth model of economics where success is measured in growth has to be rethought in a world where every advanced society is in serious decline. It would be swell if we could just import folks and have them do the work for us, and buy our inflated stock portfolios when we retire, but it is just not going to happen.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    Displaced American workers don’t disappear. They collect 99 weeks of unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid.

    The illegal immigrant also has kids with his girlfriend who gets food stamps and WIC and Medicaid and public education.

    It all has to be paid for. Plus citizens should be sovereign in their own country. They shouldn’t have to compete with foreigners in their own country.

    Please consider the Constitution:

    “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    “to ourselves and our Posterity”

    Not to every foreigner who wants free stuff and a better life paid for by us.

    There is no moral imperative for welcoming immigrants. These folks aren’t starving. Life expectancy in Mexico is 72. Mexico knows exactly what it is doing. They use the US safety net to dump their weakest citizens so that they don’t have a revolution. If they couldn’t come here, they would likely put much more pressure on their own government.

    “While we’re at it, remember that the housing market is depressed right now.”

    It’s going to stay that way, too.

    “The laws of supply and demand still apply to it. If 16,000,000 consumers suddenly leave the housing market, demand for housing is going to drop even more, and homes will be worth even less than now.”

    Ugh, these folks never were part of the “demand”. Demand is defined as willing and able to pay. They were never able to pay. Therefore they were never part of aggregate demand. The housing bubble was a Clinton/Bush pipe dream based on the false premise that people will develop ethics if you artificially entice them to become homeowners. In fact minorities at the same income level defaulted at twice the rate of whites.

    Kerner, it is all wishful thinking. I truly sympathize with where you are with this argument emotionally because I really love people regardless of their abilities. However, I learned from hard knocks in life, it is better to just face the truth. This is one of those hard truths in life. The growth model of economics where success is measured in growth has to be rethought in a world where every advanced society is in serious decline. It would be swell if we could just import folks and have them do the work for us, and buy our inflated stock portfolios when we retire, but it is just not going to happen.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace, There are folks in the Republican party who don’t really support border enforcement. They say they do to get elected, but even when they have the time and the money and the seats, they never build a wall, or do the enforcement, or rail on the employers of illegals. That is what I meant.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace, There are folks in the Republican party who don’t really support border enforcement. They say they do to get elected, but even when they have the time and the money and the seats, they never build a wall, or do the enforcement, or rail on the employers of illegals. That is what I meant.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    The periodic table comes to mind, Mendeleyev.
    Plenty of great scientists, composers and intellectuals from Russia. Certainly more impressive than Japan and Argentina.

    Wiki lists 197 pages of famous Russian mathematicians. 18 for Turkey.

    I don’t get the deal with Russia. Here, this may help:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_inventions_and_technology_records

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    The periodic table comes to mind, Mendeleyev.
    Plenty of great scientists, composers and intellectuals from Russia. Certainly more impressive than Japan and Argentina.

    Wiki lists 197 pages of famous Russian mathematicians. 18 for Turkey.

    I don’t get the deal with Russia. Here, this may help:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_inventions_and_technology_records

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Wiki lists 7 pages of Mexican mathematicians.

    Mexico and Russia have about the same size population.

    Russia population has fallen by 5 million despite immigration, probably due to their love affair with abortion. Hey, maybe they would welcome some Mexicans. They have got the space.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Wiki lists 7 pages of Mexican mathematicians.

    Mexico and Russia have about the same size population.

    Russia population has fallen by 5 million despite immigration, probably due to their love affair with abortion. Hey, maybe they would welcome some Mexicans. They have got the space.

  • Louis

    sg,

    “South Africa was sparsely populated till Europeans arrived and made it prosperous. Then Africans started moving there because the Europeans developed it and there was food, trade, employment, etc.”

    As a soon to be ex-South African, that statement is totally wrong. The rise of African immigration to South Africa (discounting migrant labour, which is a totally different thing) took off in the eighties, only, and then mostly from war – ravaged Mozambique. The discovery of gold led to a rise in European immigration, and essentialy served as an excuse for the British to invade the Boer Republics. But South Africa had a strong black as well as San and Khoi population long before that – for instance, the reason the Portugese did not settle there was because a Portugese admiral and many of his party was killed in a skirmish with an Khoi tribe in 1510 (they wanted to “teach the natives a lesson”, and got taught a lesson instead. Some things never change).

    Bror and kerner made some good points here. Suffice to say though that the history of mankind for as far as we can trace it, is a history of immigration. With the possible exception of the Khoi and San in Southern Africa, everybody is an immigrant, if you go back far enough. We will do well to remember that.

  • Louis

    sg,

    “South Africa was sparsely populated till Europeans arrived and made it prosperous. Then Africans started moving there because the Europeans developed it and there was food, trade, employment, etc.”

    As a soon to be ex-South African, that statement is totally wrong. The rise of African immigration to South Africa (discounting migrant labour, which is a totally different thing) took off in the eighties, only, and then mostly from war – ravaged Mozambique. The discovery of gold led to a rise in European immigration, and essentialy served as an excuse for the British to invade the Boer Republics. But South Africa had a strong black as well as San and Khoi population long before that – for instance, the reason the Portugese did not settle there was because a Portugese admiral and many of his party was killed in a skirmish with an Khoi tribe in 1510 (they wanted to “teach the natives a lesson”, and got taught a lesson instead. Some things never change).

    Bror and kerner made some good points here. Suffice to say though that the history of mankind for as far as we can trace it, is a history of immigration. With the possible exception of the Khoi and San in Southern Africa, everybody is an immigrant, if you go back far enough. We will do well to remember that.

  • Louis

    sg, next time you have the oppurtunity to share the Gospel with these Mexicans (never mind that they are most likely already Chrsitain, but lets ignore that), I hope you forget the sentiments you expressed here.

    Everybody has sinned, and out of one blood He made all the nations.

  • Louis

    sg, next time you have the oppurtunity to share the Gospel with these Mexicans (never mind that they are most likely already Chrsitain, but lets ignore that), I hope you forget the sentiments you expressed here.

    Everybody has sinned, and out of one blood He made all the nations.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Suffice to say though that the history of mankind for as far as we can trace it, is a history of immigration.”

    Translation: Foreigners invade and conquer.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Suffice to say though that the history of mankind for as far as we can trace it, is a history of immigration.”

    Translation: Foreigners invade and conquer.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As a soon to be ex-South African,”

    So, why are you leaving SA?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As a soon to be ex-South African,”

    So, why are you leaving SA?

  • Grace

    Louis – 196 – “sg, next time you have the oppurtunity to share the Gospel with these Mexicans (never mind that they are most likely already Chrsitain, but lets ignore that),”

    You assume they are Christians, by whos standards?

    None of us know whether they are Christians or not- lying, cheating, buying false documentation, …. that isn’t something a Christian would do.

  • Grace

    Louis – 196 – “sg, next time you have the oppurtunity to share the Gospel with these Mexicans (never mind that they are most likely already Chrsitain, but lets ignore that),”

    You assume they are Christians, by whos standards?

    None of us know whether they are Christians or not- lying, cheating, buying false documentation, …. that isn’t something a Christian would do.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Uh, South Africa has 48 million people. What are whites? 10%?

    There is no way there were 42 million blacks when whites arrived and they never would have increased to that on their own.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Uh, South Africa has 48 million people. What are whites? 10%?

    There is no way there were 42 million blacks when whites arrived and they never would have increased to that on their own.

  • Grace

    Louis – 196 – “Everybody has sinned, and out of one blood He made all the nations”

    Everyone has sinned, we agree, but that doesn’t mean most everyone is a Christian.

  • Grace

    Louis – 196 – “Everybody has sinned, and out of one blood He made all the nations”

    Everyone has sinned, we agree, but that doesn’t mean most everyone is a Christian.

  • Tom Hering

    “… that isn’t something a Christian would do.”

    Unless illegally entering North Korea. :-O

  • Tom Hering

    “… that isn’t something a Christian would do.”

    Unless illegally entering North Korea. :-O

  • Grace

    Tom – 202 – “Unless illegally entering North Korea.”

    People aren’t entering North Korea in droves. They don’t expect N. Korea to take care of them – N Korea doesn’t take care of anyone.

    Mix and matching what I posted makes no sense -

  • Grace

    Tom – 202 – “Unless illegally entering North Korea.”

    People aren’t entering North Korea in droves. They don’t expect N. Korea to take care of them – N Korea doesn’t take care of anyone.

    Mix and matching what I posted makes no sense -

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg, next time you have the oppurtunity to share the Gospel with these Mexicans (never mind that they are most likely already Chrsitain, but lets ignore that), I hope you forget the sentiments you expressed here.”

    Like which sentiments?

    Like this one at 191, “I really love people regardless of their abilities.”?

    Still waiting for a rational basis for immigration.

    Haven’t seen it yet.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg, next time you have the oppurtunity to share the Gospel with these Mexicans (never mind that they are most likely already Chrsitain, but lets ignore that), I hope you forget the sentiments you expressed here.”

    Like which sentiments?

    Like this one at 191, “I really love people regardless of their abilities.”?

    Still waiting for a rational basis for immigration.

    Haven’t seen it yet.

  • Louis

    sg, I’m not going to discuss in this forum why I left. And of course there wasn’t 42 million blacks in South Africa in 1652 (first permanent colonisation, by the Dutch East India Company). Also, South Africa has just under 10 % people of European descent, almost as much “Coloureds”, which generally means mixed race, but also often includes people of Nama, Khoi and San descent. Then there is about 2-3 % Asian (read Indian) people.

    But , in 358 years, populations do grow (did you know that?). And, the original population density in Southern Africa was prbably much higher than that of North America. Also, in spite of racial tension, and many, many wars, and apartheid, there never was any planned extermination of the indigenous races there. Also, epidemics there killed less people than in the New World, because of Africa’s closer contact with Europe and Asia, and centuries of trade etc. In the New World, the people had been severed form the rest of humanity for quite an extended period, and thus did not have the resistance to many European/Western diseases.

  • Louis

    sg, I’m not going to discuss in this forum why I left. And of course there wasn’t 42 million blacks in South Africa in 1652 (first permanent colonisation, by the Dutch East India Company). Also, South Africa has just under 10 % people of European descent, almost as much “Coloureds”, which generally means mixed race, but also often includes people of Nama, Khoi and San descent. Then there is about 2-3 % Asian (read Indian) people.

    But , in 358 years, populations do grow (did you know that?). And, the original population density in Southern Africa was prbably much higher than that of North America. Also, in spite of racial tension, and many, many wars, and apartheid, there never was any planned extermination of the indigenous races there. Also, epidemics there killed less people than in the New World, because of Africa’s closer contact with Europe and Asia, and centuries of trade etc. In the New World, the people had been severed form the rest of humanity for quite an extended period, and thus did not have the resistance to many European/Western diseases.

  • Louis

    Grace, regarding your response to Tom – you are devoid of a sense of Humour, it seems.

  • Louis

    Grace, regarding your response to Tom – you are devoid of a sense of Humour, it seems.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    But , in 358 years, populations do grow (did you know that?).

    No. Populations of most species are fairly stable if there are no changes in the ecosystem. Without western technology, the population might not have grown much at all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    But , in 358 years, populations do grow (did you know that?).

    No. Populations of most species are fairly stable if there are no changes in the ecosystem. Without western technology, the population might not have grown much at all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg, I’m not going to discuss in this forum why I left.”

    I understand. I know other people from South Africa.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg, I’m not going to discuss in this forum why I left.”

    I understand. I know other people from South Africa.

  • Louis

    sg @ 204 – and your point being?

  • Louis

    sg @ 204 – and your point being?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, 204 was your comment.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, 204 was your comment.

  • Louis

    sg @ 205: I wonder. Some of my ex-countrymen are bitter @ssholes – of course I don’t know your friends, but I’m just saying be aware of that. One should never come to hate, no matter how bitter and twisted and tragic your history.

  • Louis

    sg @ 205: I wonder. Some of my ex-countrymen are bitter @ssholes – of course I don’t know your friends, but I’m just saying be aware of that. One should never come to hate, no matter how bitter and twisted and tragic your history.

  • Louis

    sg – in my reading, 204 was your comment about growing populations and technology. Don’t exactly know why the numbering would be different.

  • Louis

    sg – in my reading, 204 was your comment about growing populations and technology. Don’t exactly know why the numbering would be different.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, I wonder if the numbers you see are the same as I see. Your last comment shows up as 210. However, it doesn’t seem to follow from my comment at 205 about stable ecosystems. I am not being sarcastic. I totally agree we shouldn’t hate. I also believe in truth. I believe we can both embrace the truth and love others. I don’t believe we can do it without God. No one can.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, I wonder if the numbers you see are the same as I see. Your last comment shows up as 210. However, it doesn’t seem to follow from my comment at 205 about stable ecosystems. I am not being sarcastic. I totally agree we shouldn’t hate. I also believe in truth. I believe we can both embrace the truth and love others. I don’t believe we can do it without God. No one can.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg – in my reading, 204 was your comment about growing populations and technology.”

    No, it is 206 on mine. How odd.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg – in my reading, 204 was your comment about growing populations and technology.”

    No, it is 206 on mine. How odd.

  • Tom Hering

    And the front page says “210 comments” when there are 211. It’s been behind by 1 most of the night.

  • Tom Hering

    And the front page says “210 comments” when there are 211. It’s been behind by 1 most of the night.

  • Grace

    Louis 211 – “sg @ 205:

    “I wonder. Some of my ex-countrymen are bitter @ssholes – of course I don’t know your friends, but I’m just saying be aware of that.”

    Who are YOU to use such language – are you so short on vocabulary skills you must resort to gutter language, to make a point you don’t have?

  • Grace

    Louis 211 – “sg @ 205:

    “I wonder. Some of my ex-countrymen are bitter @ssholes – of course I don’t know your friends, but I’m just saying be aware of that.”

    Who are YOU to use such language – are you so short on vocabulary skills you must resort to gutter language, to make a point you don’t have?

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Skubola Grace,
    Louis is a former south african whose vocabulary probably alows him to cuss in languages you haven’t heard of. But then you probably don’t understand skubola either. In any case having spent a couple years in Botswana as a kid, and keeping track of events over their louis is exactly right in describing a some of his fellow expats as bitter @ssholes. It is true some of them are, but you probably wouldnkt see it yourself because yor just as racist, paranoid, and hysterical as they are.
    But just to be clear most of us on this page don’t lack vocabulary, we just choose it as carefully as st. Paul.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Skubola Grace,
    Louis is a former south african whose vocabulary probably alows him to cuss in languages you haven’t heard of. But then you probably don’t understand skubola either. In any case having spent a couple years in Botswana as a kid, and keeping track of events over their louis is exactly right in describing a some of his fellow expats as bitter @ssholes. It is true some of them are, but you probably wouldnkt see it yourself because yor just as racist, paranoid, and hysterical as they are.
    But just to be clear most of us on this page don’t lack vocabulary, we just choose it as carefully as st. Paul.

  • Grace

    Bror – 217 – “Louis is a former south african whose vocabulary probably alows him to cuss in languages you haven’t heard of. ”

    “But just to be clear most of us on this page don’t lack vocabulary, we just choose it as carefully as st. Paul.”

    Bror, I’ve had many South African friends, their vocabulary is stellar. They have the manners often lacking in those who consider themselves educated, spending short stints in South Africa.

    Paul didn’t use the language you favor Bror…. you can choose your language, it matters little to me, …. but when you talk about Paul, you aren’t in that league no matter how glibly you manufacture your words.

  • Grace

    Bror – 217 – “Louis is a former south african whose vocabulary probably alows him to cuss in languages you haven’t heard of. ”

    “But just to be clear most of us on this page don’t lack vocabulary, we just choose it as carefully as st. Paul.”

    Bror, I’ve had many South African friends, their vocabulary is stellar. They have the manners often lacking in those who consider themselves educated, spending short stints in South Africa.

    Paul didn’t use the language you favor Bror…. you can choose your language, it matters little to me, …. but when you talk about Paul, you aren’t in that league no matter how glibly you manufacture your words.

  • kerner

    sg:

    You keep talking about embracing the truth. What truth? That Mexican Indians, or non-white people generally are dangerous and low functioning, and allowing ANY of them into our country will drag our culture down, and that you are afraid of them?

  • kerner

    sg:

    You keep talking about embracing the truth. What truth? That Mexican Indians, or non-white people generally are dangerous and low functioning, and allowing ANY of them into our country will drag our culture down, and that you are afraid of them?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Criminy, Grace (@215). I didn’t know what Bror was talking about, either, when he twice used the word “skubola”, but I imagined it was important to his comment, so I Googled the word. I might suggest you do the same, so you don’t make an a… er, ar… no, um, fool of yourself with blithe statements like “Paul didn’t use the language you favor Bror.” Bror, like Paul, is making a point by using the word.

    Sure, there are many things about Bror one can complain about. Myself, I lament that a man who knows as much as he does has to be read through not-infrequent typos and errors (which, in keeping with the 8th Commandment, I will blame on a small Blackberry keyboard). For instance, as a man well-versed in Koine Greek, Bror should know better than to transliterate “σκύβαλα” as “skubola”, since the obviously superior choice would be “skubala”.

    He also seems to think that Corona is beer. It is not. It is like making love in a canoe.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Criminy, Grace (@215). I didn’t know what Bror was talking about, either, when he twice used the word “skubola”, but I imagined it was important to his comment, so I Googled the word. I might suggest you do the same, so you don’t make an a… er, ar… no, um, fool of yourself with blithe statements like “Paul didn’t use the language you favor Bror.” Bror, like Paul, is making a point by using the word.

    Sure, there are many things about Bror one can complain about. Myself, I lament that a man who knows as much as he does has to be read through not-infrequent typos and errors (which, in keeping with the 8th Commandment, I will blame on a small Blackberry keyboard). For instance, as a man well-versed in Koine Greek, Bror should know better than to transliterate “σκύβαλα” as “skubola”, since the obviously superior choice would be “skubala”.

    He also seems to think that Corona is beer. It is not. It is like making love in a canoe.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    tODD,
    Touché I agree it is a lot like making love in a canoe, but I still enjoy it at times.
    And yes I’m worse on a Blackberry, than I am on a keyboard and that is saying something. I doubt the eleventh hour and the Dewers helped either.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    tODD,
    Touché I agree it is a lot like making love in a canoe, but I still enjoy it at times.
    And yes I’m worse on a Blackberry, than I am on a keyboard and that is saying something. I doubt the eleventh hour and the Dewers helped either.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Still waiting for rational reasons for immigration? Try these. You said @100 that Japan is the model. A homogenous people who don’t want to import problems or change their national identity. Japan’s “high functioning citizens create[d] the safest and most prosperous and just societ[y]“. Why should Japan “feel obligated to permit immigration from low functioning, high crime, poor countries”?

    You say “the obvious implication is that permitting such immigration would destroy [Japan].”

    Superficially, you appear to be correct. Japan has a very high life expectancy and a very low crime rate. Its economy appears to be strong. Everything appears to be going according to plan.

    But look closer sg, by following your model, Japan has doomed itself.

    Check out these numbers: (scroll about 1/2 way down to demographics)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan

    Japan’s population is rapidly aging. Its birth rate is very low. Young Japanese are choosing not to marry and have children. Japan’s population, now at 127 million, is expected to drop to 100 million by 2050 and to 64 million by 2100. The suicide rate is high in Japan and is the leading cause of death among young people. For all their safety and “high functioning” the Japanese have lost their will to reproduce or even continue living. So, Japan is a declining, decadent culture. The model sg? I think not.

    The alternative for a homogenous culture (agression based on ethnic superiority) was tried by Japan. They tried to conquer the Pacific rim and found out that their pure cultural intelligence didn’t teach them enough about infantry tactics (Battle of Guadalcanal: Homogenous Japanese casualties 24000[mostly killed], US casualties 6000 [only 1600 killed]. After military defeat at the hands of an immigrant culture, Japan went into the sg model for cultural protection.

    I said before that the USA is not based on ethnic culture but on principles. Those principles are (1) Human rights [All men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, not just white people, everybody]. (2) These rights include life, liberty (freedom from government control), and the pursuit of happiness (the right to work hard and get ahead in a free marketplace). The government’s primary job is to secure these rights. Since “all men” are endowed with these rights we have traditionally allowed people from all over the world to come here and try to succeed under this set of principles. And it has worked. The “American dream” has drawn people from all over the world. Sometimes a lot of them have been not all that academically inclined, but if they had the drive and ambition to work hard, they generally did well for themselves. Others have been brilliant academically but that doesn’t always translate into wisdom (the Jewish vote went 78% for Obama, one of the highest percentages of any ethnic group, with similar percentages for Kerry and Gore). I guess all that academic success didn’t translate a political philosophy you would support. Yet conservatives were making significant gains among hispanics until cultural purists like you opened your big mouths. Even with all your talk of “low functioning” and cultural homogeneity the “low functioning” violent hispanics still valued conservative principles better than the “high functioners” (their votes prove this), although conservatives have a lot of work to do to repair the damage people like you have caused.

    So no, Japan is NOT the model, unless you mean the model for decay and decline. By allowing dynamic ambitious people to immigrate from ANYWHERE, we improve our culture and keep it strong. Even if the current batch of immigrants is a more blue collar group that will apply that ambition to humbler (lower functioning?) occupations, they will still, in the long run, make the US stronger. The model, sg, is not to “skubala” all over any particular ethnic group because of some misplaced concept of cultural or ethnic superiority. The model is to identify people from anywhere who want to work, not go on welfare or commit crimes, and let them in. It may be a harder job, but it’s the one we have to do.

    Besisdes, sg, most of the industrialized white world is following your “model”. They are trying to protect their safe and relatively high functioning societies, and they totally lack motivation to build or produce. And just like in Japan their birth rates are declining and their cultures are weak. The world, by following the sg model, is literally running out of white people. Now the dynamic and ambitious people who want to try out American principles are coming from Latin America and Asia. We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.

    I hope this is rational enough for you.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Still waiting for rational reasons for immigration? Try these. You said @100 that Japan is the model. A homogenous people who don’t want to import problems or change their national identity. Japan’s “high functioning citizens create[d] the safest and most prosperous and just societ[y]“. Why should Japan “feel obligated to permit immigration from low functioning, high crime, poor countries”?

    You say “the obvious implication is that permitting such immigration would destroy [Japan].”

    Superficially, you appear to be correct. Japan has a very high life expectancy and a very low crime rate. Its economy appears to be strong. Everything appears to be going according to plan.

    But look closer sg, by following your model, Japan has doomed itself.

    Check out these numbers: (scroll about 1/2 way down to demographics)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan

    Japan’s population is rapidly aging. Its birth rate is very low. Young Japanese are choosing not to marry and have children. Japan’s population, now at 127 million, is expected to drop to 100 million by 2050 and to 64 million by 2100. The suicide rate is high in Japan and is the leading cause of death among young people. For all their safety and “high functioning” the Japanese have lost their will to reproduce or even continue living. So, Japan is a declining, decadent culture. The model sg? I think not.

    The alternative for a homogenous culture (agression based on ethnic superiority) was tried by Japan. They tried to conquer the Pacific rim and found out that their pure cultural intelligence didn’t teach them enough about infantry tactics (Battle of Guadalcanal: Homogenous Japanese casualties 24000[mostly killed], US casualties 6000 [only 1600 killed]. After military defeat at the hands of an immigrant culture, Japan went into the sg model for cultural protection.

    I said before that the USA is not based on ethnic culture but on principles. Those principles are (1) Human rights [All men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, not just white people, everybody]. (2) These rights include life, liberty (freedom from government control), and the pursuit of happiness (the right to work hard and get ahead in a free marketplace). The government’s primary job is to secure these rights. Since “all men” are endowed with these rights we have traditionally allowed people from all over the world to come here and try to succeed under this set of principles. And it has worked. The “American dream” has drawn people from all over the world. Sometimes a lot of them have been not all that academically inclined, but if they had the drive and ambition to work hard, they generally did well for themselves. Others have been brilliant academically but that doesn’t always translate into wisdom (the Jewish vote went 78% for Obama, one of the highest percentages of any ethnic group, with similar percentages for Kerry and Gore). I guess all that academic success didn’t translate a political philosophy you would support. Yet conservatives were making significant gains among hispanics until cultural purists like you opened your big mouths. Even with all your talk of “low functioning” and cultural homogeneity the “low functioning” violent hispanics still valued conservative principles better than the “high functioners” (their votes prove this), although conservatives have a lot of work to do to repair the damage people like you have caused.

    So no, Japan is NOT the model, unless you mean the model for decay and decline. By allowing dynamic ambitious people to immigrate from ANYWHERE, we improve our culture and keep it strong. Even if the current batch of immigrants is a more blue collar group that will apply that ambition to humbler (lower functioning?) occupations, they will still, in the long run, make the US stronger. The model, sg, is not to “skubala” all over any particular ethnic group because of some misplaced concept of cultural or ethnic superiority. The model is to identify people from anywhere who want to work, not go on welfare or commit crimes, and let them in. It may be a harder job, but it’s the one we have to do.

    Besisdes, sg, most of the industrialized white world is following your “model”. They are trying to protect their safe and relatively high functioning societies, and they totally lack motivation to build or produce. And just like in Japan their birth rates are declining and their cultures are weak. The world, by following the sg model, is literally running out of white people. Now the dynamic and ambitious people who want to try out American principles are coming from Latin America and Asia. We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.

    I hope this is rational enough for you.

  • kerner

    The above is pretty much based on “left hand” kingdom principles (I was asked to be “rational” after all). In the right hand kingdom, we should of course be showing our love for our neighbors by (above all else) sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ as vigorously as we can with anyone we can reach, and showing charity (as individuals, not by government fiat) to anyone we can.

  • kerner

    The above is pretty much based on “left hand” kingdom principles (I was asked to be “rational” after all). In the right hand kingdom, we should of course be showing our love for our neighbors by (above all else) sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ as vigorously as we can with anyone we can reach, and showing charity (as individuals, not by government fiat) to anyone we can.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Bror (@225), if you must drink low-functioning Mexican beers (or, as they say in Spanish, “das Bier der Untermensch”), you really should try a Negra Modelo. It’s about the most complex thing they brew down there.

    Kerner, can you send me your email address? Mine is todd -at- toddstadler -dot- com.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Bror (@225), if you must drink low-functioning Mexican beers (or, as they say in Spanish, “das Bier der Untermensch”), you really should try a Negra Modelo. It’s about the most complex thing they brew down there.

    Kerner, can you send me your email address? Mine is todd -at- toddstadler -dot- com.

  • kerner

    My kids like Pacifico. Ole.

    kernerlaw@sbcglobal.net

  • kerner

    My kids like Pacifico. Ole.

    kernerlaw@sbcglobal.net

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    I am right there with you. Japan is in serious decline due to low birthrate. However, there is no reason to believe that adding social pathology is going to fix it. I said that when I said the growth model of economics needs to be rethought. The birthrate in all the high functioning countries is dangerously low due to the overuse of birth control. I do not think importing low functioning folks addresses the problem.

    “You keep talking about embracing the truth. What truth? That Mexican Indians, or non-white people generally are dangerous and low functioning, and allowing ANY of them into our country will drag our culture down, and that you are afraid of them?”

    The truth is groups, on average, do not have the same statistical norms. There are many implications. It would be immoral for me to bring dangerous people into my house to usurp the positions of my sons. Likewise it is wrong to burden the children of our nation by importing people who will prey on them. I posted the DoJ crime stats. It is not hysteria. It is cold hard facts.

    Groups don’t have the same illegitimacy rates, graduation rates, crime rates, etc.

    Asians aren’t low functioning. Check out their AP scores:
    click on National Report at
    http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_sum/2008.html

    I have said I have no problem with the official position of our government. I have a problem with a government that thwarts the will of the people who don’t want more and more disproportionately dysfunctional immigrants.

    The truth is there is no evidence that, on a large scale, low functioning folks can become high functioning. That is why Mexico is so happy to see them go. They consume more than they produce. It is a hard truth, I know, especially if you care about people. One Mexico is enough. We don’t need to create another one here. Will the world be better off when every country on earth is corrupt, low functioning and high crime like Mexico? Is there any evidence that it can’t happen here? Any?

    You didn’t post any links to any data that shows anything different from what I am saying. I wish there were some. I haven’t see it. I wish I were wrong. I truly do. Plenty of well meaning people have dedicated their lives to these problems without changing a thing. In fact, many things are worse. It is heartbreaking. It is also real.

    The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results. We have all the data we need to show us the results of education, social programs and immigration. We lack the honesty to say out loud what the data show.

    I believe there is hope, but my hope is not in the US government’s allowing criminals to invade and abuse the citizens.

    This painting of Queen Victoria sets a good example of how to show people how to help themselves.
    http://www.arthermitage.org/Thomas-Jones-Barker/Queen-Victoria-Giving-the-Bible-to-an-African-Chief.html

    Ultimately, we don’t save anyone, but we know the One who does.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,

    I am right there with you. Japan is in serious decline due to low birthrate. However, there is no reason to believe that adding social pathology is going to fix it. I said that when I said the growth model of economics needs to be rethought. The birthrate in all the high functioning countries is dangerously low due to the overuse of birth control. I do not think importing low functioning folks addresses the problem.

    “You keep talking about embracing the truth. What truth? That Mexican Indians, or non-white people generally are dangerous and low functioning, and allowing ANY of them into our country will drag our culture down, and that you are afraid of them?”

    The truth is groups, on average, do not have the same statistical norms. There are many implications. It would be immoral for me to bring dangerous people into my house to usurp the positions of my sons. Likewise it is wrong to burden the children of our nation by importing people who will prey on them. I posted the DoJ crime stats. It is not hysteria. It is cold hard facts.

    Groups don’t have the same illegitimacy rates, graduation rates, crime rates, etc.

    Asians aren’t low functioning. Check out their AP scores:
    click on National Report at
    http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/exgrd_sum/2008.html

    I have said I have no problem with the official position of our government. I have a problem with a government that thwarts the will of the people who don’t want more and more disproportionately dysfunctional immigrants.

    The truth is there is no evidence that, on a large scale, low functioning folks can become high functioning. That is why Mexico is so happy to see them go. They consume more than they produce. It is a hard truth, I know, especially if you care about people. One Mexico is enough. We don’t need to create another one here. Will the world be better off when every country on earth is corrupt, low functioning and high crime like Mexico? Is there any evidence that it can’t happen here? Any?

    You didn’t post any links to any data that shows anything different from what I am saying. I wish there were some. I haven’t see it. I wish I were wrong. I truly do. Plenty of well meaning people have dedicated their lives to these problems without changing a thing. In fact, many things are worse. It is heartbreaking. It is also real.

    The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results. We have all the data we need to show us the results of education, social programs and immigration. We lack the honesty to say out loud what the data show.

    I believe there is hope, but my hope is not in the US government’s allowing criminals to invade and abuse the citizens.

    This painting of Queen Victoria sets a good example of how to show people how to help themselves.
    http://www.arthermitage.org/Thomas-Jones-Barker/Queen-Victoria-Giving-the-Bible-to-an-African-Chief.html

    Ultimately, we don’t save anyone, but we know the One who does.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Besisdes, sg, most of the industrialized white world is following your “model”. They are trying to protect their safe and relatively high functioning societies, and they totally lack motivation to build or produce. And just like in Japan their birth rates are declining and their cultures are weak. The world, by following the sg model, is literally running out of white people. Now the dynamic and ambitious people who want to try out American principles are coming from Latin America and Asia. We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.

    I hope this is rational enough for you.”

    Kerner,

    It is not rational at all. And the facts are wrong.

    “they totally lack motivation to build or produce.”
    1) The high functioning societies are making productivity gains every year.

    “They are trying to protect their safe and relatively high functioning societies,”
    2) They are doing nothing to protect themselves.
    The immigrants are rioting in France and establishing Sharia courts in Britain.

    ” And just like in Japan their birth rates are declining and their cultures are weak.”
    3) This is their main weakness.
    Their lack of faith is manifested in their lack of concern for their children.
    The immigrants will prey on their children.

    “Now the dynamic and ambitious people who want to try out American principles are coming from Latin America and Asia.”
    4) Few are dynamic and ambitious. That is why their own countries are a mess. They are either fleeing countries that have a growing proportion of low functioning people, or they are fleeing oppression. All the high functioning East Asian countries have birthrates lower than European nations.

    “We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.”
    5) Unfounded hope. There is no rational basis to think that people who created dysfunctional countries will fix whatever problems we have. They have even more of all our same failings.

    If you are placing your hope in these people, you will be sorely disappointed.

    Our great civilization was built over the course of 2000 years by faithful Christians who passed that faith onto their children. Then someone invented birth control and implored women to share in Adam’s curse. They placed their hope in what people could achieve and eschewed God’s blessing of children rather than keeping their faith that the Lord would provide. And here we are. I have no faith that immigration will “save” us.
    It is absurd on its face.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Besisdes, sg, most of the industrialized white world is following your “model”. They are trying to protect their safe and relatively high functioning societies, and they totally lack motivation to build or produce. And just like in Japan their birth rates are declining and their cultures are weak. The world, by following the sg model, is literally running out of white people. Now the dynamic and ambitious people who want to try out American principles are coming from Latin America and Asia. We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.

    I hope this is rational enough for you.”

    Kerner,

    It is not rational at all. And the facts are wrong.

    “they totally lack motivation to build or produce.”
    1) The high functioning societies are making productivity gains every year.

    “They are trying to protect their safe and relatively high functioning societies,”
    2) They are doing nothing to protect themselves.
    The immigrants are rioting in France and establishing Sharia courts in Britain.

    ” And just like in Japan their birth rates are declining and their cultures are weak.”
    3) This is their main weakness.
    Their lack of faith is manifested in their lack of concern for their children.
    The immigrants will prey on their children.

    “Now the dynamic and ambitious people who want to try out American principles are coming from Latin America and Asia.”
    4) Few are dynamic and ambitious. That is why their own countries are a mess. They are either fleeing countries that have a growing proportion of low functioning people, or they are fleeing oppression. All the high functioning East Asian countries have birthrates lower than European nations.

    “We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.”
    5) Unfounded hope. There is no rational basis to think that people who created dysfunctional countries will fix whatever problems we have. They have even more of all our same failings.

    If you are placing your hope in these people, you will be sorely disappointed.

    Our great civilization was built over the course of 2000 years by faithful Christians who passed that faith onto their children. Then someone invented birth control and implored women to share in Adam’s curse. They placed their hope in what people could achieve and eschewed God’s blessing of children rather than keeping their faith that the Lord would provide. And here we are. I have no faith that immigration will “save” us.
    It is absurd on its face.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.”

    Why wait to have them destroy you later, when you can invite them in to destroy you now?

    If you think they will play nice later because we kindly allowed them to immigrate, you are dreaming. They will be resentful that they cannot achieve what we have and they will blame and punish us for it. Look around. That is what is happening right now. Plenty of groups want to blame the schools they don’t even pay for because their kids can’t learn. It is utter madness.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We can either sign them up and thereby hope to remain a dynamic culture, or follow the Japan model and decline, only to be overwhelmed by hostile foreign cultures in the future.”

    Why wait to have them destroy you later, when you can invite them in to destroy you now?

    If you think they will play nice later because we kindly allowed them to immigrate, you are dreaming. They will be resentful that they cannot achieve what we have and they will blame and punish us for it. Look around. That is what is happening right now. Plenty of groups want to blame the schools they don’t even pay for because their kids can’t learn. It is utter madness.

  • kerner

    oh sg. Sometimes you get so close, and then…

    I guess we have a fundamental disagreement as to the definitions of terms. I’m sorry, but I just do not believe than an industrious, productive blue collar worker fits the definition of “low functioning” or “social pathology”. Even if the worker never does anything more complicated than put up drywall, clean hotel rooms, landscape property, or slaughter farm animals; even if such a worker never goes to college or even graduates from high school (and that’s what the numbers show); if such a worker comes to work every day and works hard and tries to do a good job, then I believe he/she is “high functioning” enough to be a good American. It is the attitude of the individual, not the statistics of the group, that make the difference. Large numbers of such individuals raise productivity in real, not theoretical, terms. The country that possesses such a workforce benefits more than it loses. Those that can “function” at a higher skilled level will benefit their country even more. And of course many will, in fact, be talented enough to go to college.

    You cite all these crime statistics and ask me why I don’t post links with different numbers. It’s partly because I don’t have time, but mostly its because your statistics don’t scare me all that much. I guess we agree that the US should do a better job of screening out criminals. But hispanics are certainly not the first ethnic group of immigrants to bring criminal gangs and higher crime statistics with them when they first arrived. Irish gangsters and the Mafia are obvious examples. Even agressive tendencies have their positive uses you know. The military is the most overt and obvious. Irish immigrants dominated organized crime in this country for decades after they first started coming. They also composed entire regiments in the Union army during the civil war, and built the eastern half of the transcontinental railroad. Neither of these were jobs for the passive.

    I also agree with you that “social programs” (if I understand what you mean by that) are causing a lot more programs that they solve. But excluding any potentially dangerous individual (because he is part of an ethnic group with higher crime stats) from your society isn’t any answer. That way lies the fate of Japan. Better to take our chances and let them join us. “Immoral to bring dangerous people into your house to usurp the positions of [your] sons”? Maybe having to deal with these people will do your sons some good. Maybe your sons will man up and surprise you. Maybe they will develop some mutual respect with hispanics (Bror did). Maybe instead of turning into Mexico (the US didn’t turn into Ireland, although parts of some US cities sure looked like it for awhile) the US will change a little and the immigrants will change too. It has happened before.

    The statistics you cite may identify certain risks involved with immigration, and you are definitely right if you think big government programs increase those risks. But your alternative is a one way ticket to decline ala Japan, so we’ll have to take the risks.

  • kerner

    oh sg. Sometimes you get so close, and then…

    I guess we have a fundamental disagreement as to the definitions of terms. I’m sorry, but I just do not believe than an industrious, productive blue collar worker fits the definition of “low functioning” or “social pathology”. Even if the worker never does anything more complicated than put up drywall, clean hotel rooms, landscape property, or slaughter farm animals; even if such a worker never goes to college or even graduates from high school (and that’s what the numbers show); if such a worker comes to work every day and works hard and tries to do a good job, then I believe he/she is “high functioning” enough to be a good American. It is the attitude of the individual, not the statistics of the group, that make the difference. Large numbers of such individuals raise productivity in real, not theoretical, terms. The country that possesses such a workforce benefits more than it loses. Those that can “function” at a higher skilled level will benefit their country even more. And of course many will, in fact, be talented enough to go to college.

    You cite all these crime statistics and ask me why I don’t post links with different numbers. It’s partly because I don’t have time, but mostly its because your statistics don’t scare me all that much. I guess we agree that the US should do a better job of screening out criminals. But hispanics are certainly not the first ethnic group of immigrants to bring criminal gangs and higher crime statistics with them when they first arrived. Irish gangsters and the Mafia are obvious examples. Even agressive tendencies have their positive uses you know. The military is the most overt and obvious. Irish immigrants dominated organized crime in this country for decades after they first started coming. They also composed entire regiments in the Union army during the civil war, and built the eastern half of the transcontinental railroad. Neither of these were jobs for the passive.

    I also agree with you that “social programs” (if I understand what you mean by that) are causing a lot more programs that they solve. But excluding any potentially dangerous individual (because he is part of an ethnic group with higher crime stats) from your society isn’t any answer. That way lies the fate of Japan. Better to take our chances and let them join us. “Immoral to bring dangerous people into your house to usurp the positions of [your] sons”? Maybe having to deal with these people will do your sons some good. Maybe your sons will man up and surprise you. Maybe they will develop some mutual respect with hispanics (Bror did). Maybe instead of turning into Mexico (the US didn’t turn into Ireland, although parts of some US cities sure looked like it for awhile) the US will change a little and the immigrants will change too. It has happened before.

    The statistics you cite may identify certain risks involved with immigration, and you are definitely right if you think big government programs increase those risks. But your alternative is a one way ticket to decline ala Japan, so we’ll have to take the risks.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m sorry, but I just do not believe than an industrious, productive blue collar worker fits the definition of “low functioning” or “social pathology”. ”

    Neither do I.

    So, it is a problem of terms. I keep citing statistics of the behavior of large groups. You keep telling me about individuals. We all know most individuals in any group are okay individually. I got that. However, their group performance is not irrelevant. It will determine the overall success and safety of a country.

    The problem with groups that have high crime and social pathology is that the number of people who need incarceration in addition to all the other people who need the usual services is too high compared to the number of people who are productive enough to provide it.

    When 10% have problems, each of the other 90% can contribute 5% of what he has and it will be enough to help those weaker members . When 20% are a problem, each of the 80% now has to contribute 11%. When 30% are a problem, the other 70% have to contribute 20%. That is where we are now. When 50% need help, the other 50% have to contribute 45%. That is where we are now. This is why the rate of pathology matters. The needs increase as the ability to provide for them decreases.

    “US didn’t turn into Ireland”

    What is wrong with Ireland? It looks good to me.

    “But your alternative is a one way ticket to decline ala Japan, so we’ll have to take the risks.”

    It is not a risk. It is certainty. We know how these groups perform. It is not hypothetical. Past performance does predict future performance. 50% rise in incarceration in ten years. That is an average of 14,000 more prison beds per year. But hey, prison building creates jobs! It is crazy.

    Japan’s case is slow economic decline and no increase in crime or decline in per capita productivity.
    Your solution is advocating rapid decline and increased crime and decreased per capita productivity.
    That solves none of the problems and creates more.

    “You cite all these crime statistics and ask me why I don’t post links with different numbers. It’s partly because I don’t have time, but mostly its because your statistics don’t scare me all that much.”

    I am sorry, that is just sickening. Have you no pity on those families who are victimized? Do they count for nothing? Are those innocent people not worth defending? The government’s first responsibility to its citizens is their protection. Why have a government that won’t defend its citizens? Such a government is the enemy of its own citizens.

    I guess the Japanese are not so greedy and stupid that they would ignore all the evidence of danger in the desperate quest for prosperity that they would open their doors to those who would abuse and murder their own citizens. Those children at least still have their father’s defending them. Ours do not. It is a profound disgrace of the first order.

    It is utterly depraved to attempt to escape the consequences of our own failures by sacrificing the safety and future of our own children.

    As my grandmother always said, “Honey, there are no gangas.”
    That is, there are no bargains you get out what you put it. You want a ride off these people, but they will instead prove a heavy burden on our children.

    I guess you could take the nihilist route and just have no kids. Plenty of others have.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m sorry, but I just do not believe than an industrious, productive blue collar worker fits the definition of “low functioning” or “social pathology”. ”

    Neither do I.

    So, it is a problem of terms. I keep citing statistics of the behavior of large groups. You keep telling me about individuals. We all know most individuals in any group are okay individually. I got that. However, their group performance is not irrelevant. It will determine the overall success and safety of a country.

    The problem with groups that have high crime and social pathology is that the number of people who need incarceration in addition to all the other people who need the usual services is too high compared to the number of people who are productive enough to provide it.

    When 10% have problems, each of the other 90% can contribute 5% of what he has and it will be enough to help those weaker members . When 20% are a problem, each of the 80% now has to contribute 11%. When 30% are a problem, the other 70% have to contribute 20%. That is where we are now. When 50% need help, the other 50% have to contribute 45%. That is where we are now. This is why the rate of pathology matters. The needs increase as the ability to provide for them decreases.

    “US didn’t turn into Ireland”

    What is wrong with Ireland? It looks good to me.

    “But your alternative is a one way ticket to decline ala Japan, so we’ll have to take the risks.”

    It is not a risk. It is certainty. We know how these groups perform. It is not hypothetical. Past performance does predict future performance. 50% rise in incarceration in ten years. That is an average of 14,000 more prison beds per year. But hey, prison building creates jobs! It is crazy.

    Japan’s case is slow economic decline and no increase in crime or decline in per capita productivity.
    Your solution is advocating rapid decline and increased crime and decreased per capita productivity.
    That solves none of the problems and creates more.

    “You cite all these crime statistics and ask me why I don’t post links with different numbers. It’s partly because I don’t have time, but mostly its because your statistics don’t scare me all that much.”

    I am sorry, that is just sickening. Have you no pity on those families who are victimized? Do they count for nothing? Are those innocent people not worth defending? The government’s first responsibility to its citizens is their protection. Why have a government that won’t defend its citizens? Such a government is the enemy of its own citizens.

    I guess the Japanese are not so greedy and stupid that they would ignore all the evidence of danger in the desperate quest for prosperity that they would open their doors to those who would abuse and murder their own citizens. Those children at least still have their father’s defending them. Ours do not. It is a profound disgrace of the first order.

    It is utterly depraved to attempt to escape the consequences of our own failures by sacrificing the safety and future of our own children.

    As my grandmother always said, “Honey, there are no gangas.”
    That is, there are no bargains you get out what you put it. You want a ride off these people, but they will instead prove a heavy burden on our children.

    I guess you could take the nihilist route and just have no kids. Plenty of others have.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Maybe having to deal with these people will do your sons some good. Maybe your sons will man up and surprise you. Maybe they will develop some mutual respect with hispanics (Bror did).”

    My family has plenty of hispanic friends whom we love and respect. None are illegal immigrants or criminals. My great grandmother was from Mexico. That doesn’t change the group performance. I oppose massive borders totally open to criminals. I don’t oppose decent people from Mexico.

    “Maybe instead of turning into Mexico (the US didn’t turn into Ireland, although parts of some US cities sure looked like it for awhile) the US will change a little and the immigrants will change too. It has happened before.”

    No, it hasn’t. Every group in the US has performance similar to its performance in its place of origin. It follows the same pattern. Sure they speak English not some other language, but basic performance is extremely similar. Pick any group and compare how they do in the US and compare it to how they do in the world. It is the same. People are who they are.

    You keep saying things that are just not true. I think you sort of believe them out of the collective PC mythological consciousness. But they are just plain not true.

    Every one of your hopes and dreams is directly contrary to evidence. There is no basis in reality for what you hope for.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Maybe having to deal with these people will do your sons some good. Maybe your sons will man up and surprise you. Maybe they will develop some mutual respect with hispanics (Bror did).”

    My family has plenty of hispanic friends whom we love and respect. None are illegal immigrants or criminals. My great grandmother was from Mexico. That doesn’t change the group performance. I oppose massive borders totally open to criminals. I don’t oppose decent people from Mexico.

    “Maybe instead of turning into Mexico (the US didn’t turn into Ireland, although parts of some US cities sure looked like it for awhile) the US will change a little and the immigrants will change too. It has happened before.”

    No, it hasn’t. Every group in the US has performance similar to its performance in its place of origin. It follows the same pattern. Sure they speak English not some other language, but basic performance is extremely similar. Pick any group and compare how they do in the US and compare it to how they do in the world. It is the same. People are who they are.

    You keep saying things that are just not true. I think you sort of believe them out of the collective PC mythological consciousness. But they are just plain not true.

    Every one of your hopes and dreams is directly contrary to evidence. There is no basis in reality for what you hope for.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You cite all these crime statistics and ask me why I don’t post links with different numbers. It’s partly because I don’t have time, ”

    It wouldn’t matter. There is no data that supports your points.

    I started out like you, looking for that data. I never found it. It was hard for me to face.

    The main reason to look is to be sure of the truth. Unfortunately in this dark and fading age, there is little regard for truth.
    Post modern times.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You cite all these crime statistics and ask me why I don’t post links with different numbers. It’s partly because I don’t have time, ”

    It wouldn’t matter. There is no data that supports your points.

    I started out like you, looking for that data. I never found it. It was hard for me to face.

    The main reason to look is to be sure of the truth. Unfortunately in this dark and fading age, there is little regard for truth.
    Post modern times.


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