The Gospel according to Glenn Beck

Hundreds of thousands of Americans attended Glenn Beck’s rally at the Lincoln Memorial.   In the course of honoring veterans and cultivating patriotism, Beck said that he sensed that the rally would mark the beginning of a new revival, with America turning back to God.  Though a number of Christian leaders participated in the rally, leading prayers from the podium, the invocation of so much civil religion and the prospect of a religious awakening led by Mr. Beck, a Mormon, filled some Christians with alarm.  This is from Russell Moore, a Southern Baptist minister and seminary professor:

A Mormon television star stands in front of the Lincoln Memorial and calls American Christians to revival. He assembles some evangelical celebrities to give testimonies, and then preaches a God and country revivalism that leaves the evangelicals cheering that they’ve heard the gospel, right there in the nation’s capital.

The news media pronounces him the new leader of America’s Christian conservative movement, and a flock of America’s Christian conservatives have no problem with that.

If you’d told me that ten years ago, I would have assumed it was from the pages of an evangelical apocalyptic novel about the end-times. But it’s not. It’s from this week’s headlines. And it is a scandal.

Fox News commentator Glenn Beck, of course, is that Mormon at the center of all this. Beck isn’t the problem. He’s an entrepreneur, he’s brilliant, and, hats off to him, he knows his market. Latter-day Saints have every right to speak, with full religious liberty, in the public square. I’m quite willing to work with Mormons on various issues, as citizens working for the common good. What concerns me here is not what this says about Beck or the “Tea Party” or any other entertainment or political figure. What concerns me is about what this says about the Christian churches in the United States.

It’s taken us a long time to get here, in this plummet from Francis Schaeffer to Glenn Beck. In order to be this gullible, American Christians have had to endure years of vacuous talk about undefined “revival” and “turning America back to God” that was less about anything uniquely Christian than about, at best, a generically theistic civil religion and, at worst, some partisan political movement.

Rather than cultivating a Christian vision of justice and the common good (which would have, by necessity, been nuanced enough to put us sometimes at odds with our political allies), we’ve relied on populist God-and-country sloganeering and outrage-generating talking heads. We’ve tolerated heresy and buffoonery in our leadership as long as with it there is sufficient political “conservatism” and a sufficient commercial venue to sell our books and products.

Too often, and for too long, American “Christianity” has been a political agenda in search of a gospel useful enough to accommodate it. There is a liberation theology of the Left, and there is also a liberation theology of the Right, and both are at heart mammon worship. The liberation theology of the Left often wants a Barabbas, to fight off the oppressors as though our ultimate problem were the reign of Rome and not the reign of death. The liberation theology of the Right wants a golden calf, to represent religion and to remind us of all the economic security we had in Egypt. Both want a Caesar or a Pharaoh, not a Messiah.

Leaders will always be tempted to bypass the problem behind the problems: captivity to sin, bondage to the accusations of the demonic powers, the sentence of death. That’s why so many of our Christian superstars smile at crowds of thousands, reassuring them that they don’t like to talk about sin. That’s why other Christian celebrities are seen to be courageous for fighting their culture wars, while they carefully leave out the sins most likely to be endemic to the people paying the bills in their movements.

Where there is no gospel, something else will fill the void: therapy, consumerism, racial or class resentment, utopian politics, crazy conspiracy theories of the left, crazy conspiracy theories of the right; anything will do. The prophet Isaiah warned us of such conspiracies replacing the Word of God centuries ago (Is. 8:12–20). As long as the Serpent’s voice is heard, “You shall not surely die,” the powers are comfortable.

This is, of course, not new. Our Lord Jesus faced this test when Satan took him to a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth, and their glory. Satan did not mind surrendering his authority to Jesus. He didn’t mind a universe without pornography or Islam or abortion or nuclear weaponry. Satan did not mind Judeo-Christian values. He wasn’t worried about “revival” or “getting back to God.” What he opposes was the gospel of Christ crucified and resurrected for the sins of the world.

We used to sing that old gospel song, “I will cling to an old rugged cross, and exchange it some day for a crown.”  The scandalous scene at the Lincoln Memorial indicates that many of us want to exchange it in too soon. To Jesus, Satan offered power and glory. To us, all he needs offer is celebrity and attention.

Mormonism and Mammonism are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. They offer another Lord Jesus than the One offered in the Scriptures and Christian tradition, and another way to approach him. An embrace of these tragic new vehicles for the old Gnostic heresy is unloving to our Mormon friends and secularist neighbors, and to the rest of the watching world. Any “revival” that is possible without the Lord Jesus Christ is a “revival” of a different kind of spirit than the Spirit of Christ (1 Jn. 4:1-3).

The answer to this scandal isn’t a retreat, as some would have it, to an allegedly apolitical isolation. Such attempts lead us right back here, in spades, to a hyper-political wasteland. If the churches are not forming consciences, consciences will be formed by the status quo, including whatever demagogues can yell the loudest or cry the hardest. The answer isn’t a narrowing sectarianism, retreating further and further into our enclaves. The answer includes local churches that preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, and disciple their congregations to know the difference between the kingdom of God and the latest political whim.

It’s sad to see so many Christians confusing Mormon politics or American nationalism with the gospel of Jesus Christ. But, don’t get me wrong, I’m not pessimistic. Jesus will build his church, and he will build it on the gospel. He doesn’t need American Christianity to do it. Vibrant, loving, orthodox Christianity will flourish, perhaps among the poor of Haiti or the persecuted of Sudan or the outlawed of China, but it will flourish.

And there will be a new generation, in America and elsewhere, who will be ready for a gospel that is more than just Fox News at prayer.

Is this right?  Or too harsh?  Civil religion, I suspect, goes better with Mormonism than with Biblical Christianity.  So far the Tea Parties have avoided religious issues, sticking to economic and small-government issues.  Does the Beck rally herald a deepening of the movement, or the sell-out of Christians to an interfaith–and essentially Mormon–quest for political power?

HT:  Rich Shipe (one of those concerned evangelical pastors)

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Winston Smith

    Dr. Moore is exactly right, and there is not too much to add.

    Real Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and to the extent it is corporate, it is about the church of fellow Bible believing, regenerated saints. The call in the political sphere to “turn America back to God” (coming from a Mormon, of all people) is as phony as a three dollar bill.

  • Winston Smith

    Dr. Moore is exactly right, and there is not too much to add.

    Real Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and to the extent it is corporate, it is about the church of fellow Bible believing, regenerated saints. The call in the political sphere to “turn America back to God” (coming from a Mormon, of all people) is as phony as a three dollar bill.

  • Joe

    I see this as a potential problem for the tea party movement. In general the movement has been about limited gov’t and really nothing else. Many of these tea party folks are libertarians (or at least federalists) and co-opting this into a religious movement will fracture the movement and seriously mess up a great opportunity to get folks into office who actually beleive that the federal gov’t is not the answer to every problem.

    I understand that this was not an rally sanctioned by any tea party group, but he was preaching to that audience. I heard about folks leaving en mass from a Tea Party rally in Milwaukee when they turned the microphone over to an inner city pastor who started with the turn America back to God shtick. Beck just might make this happen on a national scale.

  • Joe

    I see this as a potential problem for the tea party movement. In general the movement has been about limited gov’t and really nothing else. Many of these tea party folks are libertarians (or at least federalists) and co-opting this into a religious movement will fracture the movement and seriously mess up a great opportunity to get folks into office who actually beleive that the federal gov’t is not the answer to every problem.

    I understand that this was not an rally sanctioned by any tea party group, but he was preaching to that audience. I heard about folks leaving en mass from a Tea Party rally in Milwaukee when they turned the microphone over to an inner city pastor who started with the turn America back to God shtick. Beck just might make this happen on a national scale.

  • larry

    I think he gets most of it right, about 99.9%, up unto the point where he assumes he himself is within the camp of “orthodoxy”, which he is not. 99.9% is not enough. For not only is Mormonism contrary to the Gospel but so is believer’s baptism utterly contrary to the Gospel. As Luther says, “It is one thing to have faith and an entirely different thing to rely on faith and to permit oneself to be baptized on the basis of faith. Whoever lets himself be baptized on the basis of his faith is not only uncertain but also an idolatrous and apostate Christian. For he trusts and build on something he himself possesses, namely on a gift which God has given him, and not on the Word of God alone.” (end quote)

    Thus, as it is a temptation for heterodoxy, mingled false teaching, such as Baptist and general evangelicals to align with rank and pure false teaching void of any Gospel, Mormonism, against a common enemy “liberalism”; so it is too very tempting for orthodoxy, Lutheran confessions, to align with heterodoxy that mingles some Gospel with some antichrist against THIS common enemy of rank false teaching. A great temptation Luther avoided with Zwingli and anabaptist and later Lutherans with Calvin and all the precursor baptist against the common foe Rome. In principle he gets this much right, it’s a GREAT temptation to stray from the Word with a common foe in mind, after all such alliances make sense, so we think.

    If Dr. Russell Moore wishes to understand why evangelicals, laity famous or just run of the mill, believe this way, as he describes, he should be look at his own preached, taught and proclaimed false doctrines. The laity are frankly more honest about what such doctrines mean than the patchwork theologians of heterodoxy always attempting to stick a finger in the dam of heterodoxy saying, “no we are about the gospel too, yet believers baptism”. I’ve often noted in my time in the Baptist church that the unbaptized youth picked up on the doctrine quicker than did the adults, then tragically left the church realizing the reality, “according to this, we are not Christians, we’ve been lied to our entire Sunday school life…”. So it’s no shock that evangelicals might listen to a Glenn Beck, after all he believes in God right and he believes God is sovereign right. What brings a congregation together is not objective Word and sacraments, but heart felt confessions. It’s simply the logical conclusion of the very doctrines he holds to be true himself. Luther nailed it when he said there is no difference (in the end) between the pope, the sacramentarians/enthuised/sectarians and Mohammedians.

    That aside for now, Dr. Moore is seeing and identifying a reality here that I find dangerous, more dangerous than liberal politics. Something I’ve been wondering about for a while now, this mix of evangelicalism with RC and Mormonism. John MacArthur, to his credit, saw this years ago. This rally described much as “spiritual”, revivalistic and alike is ironic to me as they question “is or is not Obama is a Christian or not”. It appears that the ecclesiastical antichrist is attempting to re-saddle the secular government antichrist to ride once again. Will it be successful? But what about the Pope, can’t leave him out, after all this was his stead chasing after Luther.

    But more interestingly among the very public air waves has begun this question “what is a Christian” via “is Obama a Christian”. Those that ponder to answer this always answer it, without exception, with a version of if not explicitly, “I believe”, that is what defines a Christian (and thereby faith) is that personal relationship or heart felt thing that cannot be examined. Sean Hannity, a RC, often states this when pressed. None whatsoever in the direction of “God cannot lie” (faith). I find this mingling of religion and government more dangerous than liberal politics. The later hurt the body, but the former deceive many into the despair of hell. Orthodoxy is tempted by this, this “let’s align with rank false teachings (mormon) against a common enemy liberalism or false teaching heterodoxy (the sects) against the afore mentioned aliegance against liberalism.

    The devil is no strategic sloth, he makes generals like Douglas MacArthur look like ignorant children.

  • larry

    I think he gets most of it right, about 99.9%, up unto the point where he assumes he himself is within the camp of “orthodoxy”, which he is not. 99.9% is not enough. For not only is Mormonism contrary to the Gospel but so is believer’s baptism utterly contrary to the Gospel. As Luther says, “It is one thing to have faith and an entirely different thing to rely on faith and to permit oneself to be baptized on the basis of faith. Whoever lets himself be baptized on the basis of his faith is not only uncertain but also an idolatrous and apostate Christian. For he trusts and build on something he himself possesses, namely on a gift which God has given him, and not on the Word of God alone.” (end quote)

    Thus, as it is a temptation for heterodoxy, mingled false teaching, such as Baptist and general evangelicals to align with rank and pure false teaching void of any Gospel, Mormonism, against a common enemy “liberalism”; so it is too very tempting for orthodoxy, Lutheran confessions, to align with heterodoxy that mingles some Gospel with some antichrist against THIS common enemy of rank false teaching. A great temptation Luther avoided with Zwingli and anabaptist and later Lutherans with Calvin and all the precursor baptist against the common foe Rome. In principle he gets this much right, it’s a GREAT temptation to stray from the Word with a common foe in mind, after all such alliances make sense, so we think.

    If Dr. Russell Moore wishes to understand why evangelicals, laity famous or just run of the mill, believe this way, as he describes, he should be look at his own preached, taught and proclaimed false doctrines. The laity are frankly more honest about what such doctrines mean than the patchwork theologians of heterodoxy always attempting to stick a finger in the dam of heterodoxy saying, “no we are about the gospel too, yet believers baptism”. I’ve often noted in my time in the Baptist church that the unbaptized youth picked up on the doctrine quicker than did the adults, then tragically left the church realizing the reality, “according to this, we are not Christians, we’ve been lied to our entire Sunday school life…”. So it’s no shock that evangelicals might listen to a Glenn Beck, after all he believes in God right and he believes God is sovereign right. What brings a congregation together is not objective Word and sacraments, but heart felt confessions. It’s simply the logical conclusion of the very doctrines he holds to be true himself. Luther nailed it when he said there is no difference (in the end) between the pope, the sacramentarians/enthuised/sectarians and Mohammedians.

    That aside for now, Dr. Moore is seeing and identifying a reality here that I find dangerous, more dangerous than liberal politics. Something I’ve been wondering about for a while now, this mix of evangelicalism with RC and Mormonism. John MacArthur, to his credit, saw this years ago. This rally described much as “spiritual”, revivalistic and alike is ironic to me as they question “is or is not Obama is a Christian or not”. It appears that the ecclesiastical antichrist is attempting to re-saddle the secular government antichrist to ride once again. Will it be successful? But what about the Pope, can’t leave him out, after all this was his stead chasing after Luther.

    But more interestingly among the very public air waves has begun this question “what is a Christian” via “is Obama a Christian”. Those that ponder to answer this always answer it, without exception, with a version of if not explicitly, “I believe”, that is what defines a Christian (and thereby faith) is that personal relationship or heart felt thing that cannot be examined. Sean Hannity, a RC, often states this when pressed. None whatsoever in the direction of “God cannot lie” (faith). I find this mingling of religion and government more dangerous than liberal politics. The later hurt the body, but the former deceive many into the despair of hell. Orthodoxy is tempted by this, this “let’s align with rank false teachings (mormon) against a common enemy liberalism or false teaching heterodoxy (the sects) against the afore mentioned aliegance against liberalism.

    The devil is no strategic sloth, he makes generals like Douglas MacArthur look like ignorant children.

  • Winston Smith

    Even worse, the civic religion Beck preaches is a counterfeit of the real Gospel. Many who can’t tell the difference will eagerly embrace the cross-less, Christ-less civic religion (that accepts Mormons, Catholics and others on an equal footing) and think they are Christians because they follow Glenn Beck and hate President Obama. Also, every crass, hateful political shenanigan and every clumsy misstep of the Beckites will be laid at the foot of genuine Christianity.

    Thus Beck and his ilk lead people away from the real Gospel, while discrediting the true Christian faith. It really is quite insidious.

    Is this “Joel’s Army”?

  • Winston Smith

    Even worse, the civic religion Beck preaches is a counterfeit of the real Gospel. Many who can’t tell the difference will eagerly embrace the cross-less, Christ-less civic religion (that accepts Mormons, Catholics and others on an equal footing) and think they are Christians because they follow Glenn Beck and hate President Obama. Also, every crass, hateful political shenanigan and every clumsy misstep of the Beckites will be laid at the foot of genuine Christianity.

    Thus Beck and his ilk lead people away from the real Gospel, while discrediting the true Christian faith. It really is quite insidious.

    Is this “Joel’s Army”?

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  • larry

    That is the question being asked today is it not, not so much WHO is a Christian, but what is a Christian and by extension what is Christianity? To listen to the answers is revealing. Conservatives such as Sean H. say they “can’t read a man’s heart” and such is a matter of such a person’s heart felt believe, a Roman Catholic giving a perfectly baptistic/evangelical answer. R. Limbaugh, and I have no idea what his belief or background is concerning such, at least hinted heavily that “doctrine” might enter the fray when he referred to Obama’s former church attendance.

    Luther proves to be right again when he vehemently warned against building one’s ASSURANCE on feelings, experiences, works, etc…that such always without exception lead men AWAY from the raw Word (even within the realm of using the Word). Faith clings to the naked Word, “God cannot lie” and is not “I believe” (how sacramentarian doctrine determines it is elect/reborn).

    When one asks the question, “is so and so a Christian, be it the president or anyone”, one better be ready to know how one’s self is such and how one knows this and even more what is truly Christianity. Christianity is “where there is forgiveness (without the support of faith, works, reaason or affections) there is life and salvation. Not sacramentarian or Roman opposite, “where there is life and salvation there is (then) forgiveness of sin”. How does one KNOW one is forgiven by God Himself, all doctrine put together, no patchwork here.

    How are you assured is the real question? After all what is the significant difference concerning this in a “personal relationship that is heart felt” (how one says they know and are assured) and a “burning of the bossom”?

  • larry

    That is the question being asked today is it not, not so much WHO is a Christian, but what is a Christian and by extension what is Christianity? To listen to the answers is revealing. Conservatives such as Sean H. say they “can’t read a man’s heart” and such is a matter of such a person’s heart felt believe, a Roman Catholic giving a perfectly baptistic/evangelical answer. R. Limbaugh, and I have no idea what his belief or background is concerning such, at least hinted heavily that “doctrine” might enter the fray when he referred to Obama’s former church attendance.

    Luther proves to be right again when he vehemently warned against building one’s ASSURANCE on feelings, experiences, works, etc…that such always without exception lead men AWAY from the raw Word (even within the realm of using the Word). Faith clings to the naked Word, “God cannot lie” and is not “I believe” (how sacramentarian doctrine determines it is elect/reborn).

    When one asks the question, “is so and so a Christian, be it the president or anyone”, one better be ready to know how one’s self is such and how one knows this and even more what is truly Christianity. Christianity is “where there is forgiveness (without the support of faith, works, reaason or affections) there is life and salvation. Not sacramentarian or Roman opposite, “where there is life and salvation there is (then) forgiveness of sin”. How does one KNOW one is forgiven by God Himself, all doctrine put together, no patchwork here.

    How are you assured is the real question? After all what is the significant difference concerning this in a “personal relationship that is heart felt” (how one says they know and are assured) and a “burning of the bossom”?

  • sandi

    I think this is more about Americans who want change in our governement , and Beck happens to have decided to become a spokes person. Beck happens to be in the right place and the right time. I have listened to Beck on Fox news and had no idea he was a Morman. But if I lived closer, I would have gone to the rally. Not in support of his faith ,(which by the way, the crowd could not have fortold his adgenda)but in support of a grass roots gathering of Americans who feel that their political system is not working as it should. If Beck wants to call for a revival back to God, it could be another example of the splinters of the tea party and thus its questionable success.

  • sandi

    I think this is more about Americans who want change in our governement , and Beck happens to have decided to become a spokes person. Beck happens to be in the right place and the right time. I have listened to Beck on Fox news and had no idea he was a Morman. But if I lived closer, I would have gone to the rally. Not in support of his faith ,(which by the way, the crowd could not have fortold his adgenda)but in support of a grass roots gathering of Americans who feel that their political system is not working as it should. If Beck wants to call for a revival back to God, it could be another example of the splinters of the tea party and thus its questionable success.

  • Yvonne Kiser

    If nothing else comes from this episode, it has folks thinking and talking about their own relationship with Christ.

  • Yvonne Kiser

    If nothing else comes from this episode, it has folks thinking and talking about their own relationship with Christ.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Martin Luther (paraphrasing):

    “There is an earthly righteousness that God demands …. we should mind to our own business and stay out of the personal lives, property and business of others, so each can enjoy his earthly blessings in peace….This earthly righteousness includes everything that we can do in our bodies….No faith at all is required for this kind of righteousness.

    Then there is that other Righteousness, that is invisible faith alone in Christ. It includes nothing at all that we can do in our bodies….how could it? Those visible things are already all included in that other earthly righteousness…. This heavenly righteousness is meaningless and useless on earth except to God and a troubled conscience.”

    So then the question: what is it, alone, that makes one a Christian?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Martin Luther (paraphrasing):

    “There is an earthly righteousness that God demands …. we should mind to our own business and stay out of the personal lives, property and business of others, so each can enjoy his earthly blessings in peace….This earthly righteousness includes everything that we can do in our bodies….No faith at all is required for this kind of righteousness.

    Then there is that other Righteousness, that is invisible faith alone in Christ. It includes nothing at all that we can do in our bodies….how could it? Those visible things are already all included in that other earthly righteousness…. This heavenly righteousness is meaningless and useless on earth except to God and a troubled conscience.”

    So then the question: what is it, alone, that makes one a Christian?

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I think this column is pretty much right on the button.

    I haven’t felt a warm fuzzy when I hear or read “God bless America” in some time because my first thought “is who do you say God is?” However, very few people are that discerning, they automatically assume they are referring to the God of our salvation. My own parents for example never knew Glenn Beck was a mormon, they only heard him saying christian like things.

    I’ll be honest Glenn Beck talking about America returning to God is very frightening. The LDS are a nationalist religion, one of their key tenants is that U.S. is the promise land and that it is here that Jesus will set up his reign when he returns. It is one of the reasons why they buy up so much land. I hear him talk and I hear a proclamation of a theocracy established under the LDS president. On the other hand, I hear an entertainer say the things he knows will get ratings.

    But I will say this, it is because of this kind of stuff, I and the other pastor in our congregation have been hammering away at the theology of the Two Kingdoms.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I think this column is pretty much right on the button.

    I haven’t felt a warm fuzzy when I hear or read “God bless America” in some time because my first thought “is who do you say God is?” However, very few people are that discerning, they automatically assume they are referring to the God of our salvation. My own parents for example never knew Glenn Beck was a mormon, they only heard him saying christian like things.

    I’ll be honest Glenn Beck talking about America returning to God is very frightening. The LDS are a nationalist religion, one of their key tenants is that U.S. is the promise land and that it is here that Jesus will set up his reign when he returns. It is one of the reasons why they buy up so much land. I hear him talk and I hear a proclamation of a theocracy established under the LDS president. On the other hand, I hear an entertainer say the things he knows will get ratings.

    But I will say this, it is because of this kind of stuff, I and the other pastor in our congregation have been hammering away at the theology of the Two Kingdoms.

  • Joe

    “If nothing else comes from this episode, it has folks thinking and talking about their own relationship with Christ.”

    I hope your right but I think it more likely has people thinking about the US of A’s relationship with Christ, which is the wrong topic.

  • Joe

    “If nothing else comes from this episode, it has folks thinking and talking about their own relationship with Christ.”

    I hope your right but I think it more likely has people thinking about the US of A’s relationship with Christ, which is the wrong topic.

  • Orianna Laun

    True Gospel will always be unpopular because no one wants to claim sinfulness. This is the spirituality of emotions and “doing the right thing.” If we could swing a morality revival in this country it wouldn’t hurt; which is, I think, the best one could hope for.
    As for Glen Beck, I didn’t know he was Mormon (although I believe Rush Limbaugh has some Lutheranism in his background somewhere), and their gospel (on the surface) is a do-the-right-thing message.

  • Orianna Laun

    True Gospel will always be unpopular because no one wants to claim sinfulness. This is the spirituality of emotions and “doing the right thing.” If we could swing a morality revival in this country it wouldn’t hurt; which is, I think, the best one could hope for.
    As for Glen Beck, I didn’t know he was Mormon (although I believe Rush Limbaugh has some Lutheranism in his background somewhere), and their gospel (on the surface) is a do-the-right-thing message.

  • Winston Smith

    The Tea Party was originally a leaderless group primarily concerned with limited government issues like taxation and the role of the federal government as opposed to the states. Establishment politicians of both parties get nervous when the grassroots start talking about things like auditing the (technically private) Federal Reserve, downsizing the military-industrial complex and limiting the bloated monstrosity that is the federal government. At that point, personalities from the mainstream GOP Establishment, like Beck and Palin, step in and try to make the Tea Party all about race (which it was NOT originally) and about generically Religious Right feel-good American propaganda.

    I’m just cynical enough to believe that Beck, et al chose the date and place associated with Dr. King’s historic speech, knowing full well that charges of racism and insensitivity would follow, in order to discredit the Tea Party. Once the media has tainted you as a racist, it’s easy to discredit all your ideas, even the good ones, like limiting government. (Rand Paul, running for the Senate in Kentucky, received that same treatment earlier this year when he made some ill-advised remarks about the Civil Rights Act of 1964.) Thus Beck and company have disarmed and co-opted the Tea Party before it did any real damage.

  • Winston Smith

    The Tea Party was originally a leaderless group primarily concerned with limited government issues like taxation and the role of the federal government as opposed to the states. Establishment politicians of both parties get nervous when the grassroots start talking about things like auditing the (technically private) Federal Reserve, downsizing the military-industrial complex and limiting the bloated monstrosity that is the federal government. At that point, personalities from the mainstream GOP Establishment, like Beck and Palin, step in and try to make the Tea Party all about race (which it was NOT originally) and about generically Religious Right feel-good American propaganda.

    I’m just cynical enough to believe that Beck, et al chose the date and place associated with Dr. King’s historic speech, knowing full well that charges of racism and insensitivity would follow, in order to discredit the Tea Party. Once the media has tainted you as a racist, it’s easy to discredit all your ideas, even the good ones, like limiting government. (Rand Paul, running for the Senate in Kentucky, received that same treatment earlier this year when he made some ill-advised remarks about the Civil Rights Act of 1964.) Thus Beck and company have disarmed and co-opted the Tea Party before it did any real damage.

  • Joe

    Sorry @ 10 that should be “you’re right”

    DRL21C – Hammer away on it; it is a doctrine that has been ignored for far too long. Good on you.

  • Joe

    Sorry @ 10 that should be “you’re right”

    DRL21C – Hammer away on it; it is a doctrine that has been ignored for far too long. Good on you.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther @ 9

    look for Luther´s sermon for the 9th sunday after trinity referenced in the FC art VI. It should be titled “two kinds of righteousness, or two kingdoms”.

    My previous post was severe condensation of that sermon.

    Arand has done some good work on this, but his work is vitiated by his thinking that two kinds of righteousness is some sort of replacement for law and gospel . and we LCMS lutherans have been trained to think that the two kingdoms doctrine is something other than the distinction between law and gospel. We have been trained to think that two kingdoms is about the right relation of christians to government.

    For the early Lutherans both two kinds of righteousness and two kingdoms are just another format exactly for law and gospel. so article VI and article XVIII become the go-to articles for understanding the doctrine of the two kingdoms that means.

    two kingdoms and two kinds of righteousness are really just an application of romans 8. As is exactly Luther´s Law/Gospel insight. “flesh/body” includes and is everything that is the earthly kingdom, and “spirit” is everything that is not that, the heavenly kingdom. …the One Thing, Jesus Christ and faith in him. Alone.

    The lightbulb moment that came with “The just shall live by faith”, has it´s direct roots in Luther´s radical departure from scholasticism , and then the neo-scholasticism of Melancthon/Calvin in seeing that “flesh/body” vs “spirit” is not “flesh=bad vs spirit=good”. It is more like boolean algebra: spirit is alone faith in christ, so then flesh/body is EVERYTHING else so that faith remains alone. Gospel vs Law.

    I hope this helps you dear Pastor Dr Luther in the 20th century….

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther @ 9

    look for Luther´s sermon for the 9th sunday after trinity referenced in the FC art VI. It should be titled “two kinds of righteousness, or two kingdoms”.

    My previous post was severe condensation of that sermon.

    Arand has done some good work on this, but his work is vitiated by his thinking that two kinds of righteousness is some sort of replacement for law and gospel . and we LCMS lutherans have been trained to think that the two kingdoms doctrine is something other than the distinction between law and gospel. We have been trained to think that two kingdoms is about the right relation of christians to government.

    For the early Lutherans both two kinds of righteousness and two kingdoms are just another format exactly for law and gospel. so article VI and article XVIII become the go-to articles for understanding the doctrine of the two kingdoms that means.

    two kingdoms and two kinds of righteousness are really just an application of romans 8. As is exactly Luther´s Law/Gospel insight. “flesh/body” includes and is everything that is the earthly kingdom, and “spirit” is everything that is not that, the heavenly kingdom. …the One Thing, Jesus Christ and faith in him. Alone.

    The lightbulb moment that came with “The just shall live by faith”, has it´s direct roots in Luther´s radical departure from scholasticism , and then the neo-scholasticism of Melancthon/Calvin in seeing that “flesh/body” vs “spirit” is not “flesh=bad vs spirit=good”. It is more like boolean algebra: spirit is alone faith in christ, so then flesh/body is EVERYTHING else so that faith remains alone. Gospel vs Law.

    I hope this helps you dear Pastor Dr Luther in the 20th century….

  • WebMonk

    Rich is a pastor now?! Wow, drop out of contact with someone for half a decade and he goes out and becomes a pastor!!

    Good on Rich. Where is he serving as a pastor?

  • WebMonk

    Rich is a pastor now?! Wow, drop out of contact with someone for half a decade and he goes out and becomes a pastor!!

    Good on Rich. Where is he serving as a pastor?

  • Lisa

    This, Glenn Beck,is all about building the kingdom of God on earth. This country MUST succeed because Mormonism depends on it. We all know that the teaching of the Mormon church about this country is that its God’s Zion. This country, according to Mormons, is where Christ will return and turn the whole world to Joe Smith’s religion. Many so called Christians who believe that this country MUST succeed are just delusional. They don’t have a clue about God’s Kingdom. They are placing hope in politicians, not the Messiah.

    Glenn Beck is a tool of the Mormon church.

  • Lisa

    This, Glenn Beck,is all about building the kingdom of God on earth. This country MUST succeed because Mormonism depends on it. We all know that the teaching of the Mormon church about this country is that its God’s Zion. This country, according to Mormons, is where Christ will return and turn the whole world to Joe Smith’s religion. Many so called Christians who believe that this country MUST succeed are just delusional. They don’t have a clue about God’s Kingdom. They are placing hope in politicians, not the Messiah.

    Glenn Beck is a tool of the Mormon church.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Mormonism is insidious with the kind of nationalism Beck preaches.
    They don’t get much of their theology from “The Book of Mormon” but this democratic small government is the form of Government God wants for his people, as Gospel, is found there.
    I can’t stand listening to Glen Beck, he whines too much, and you can see him frothing at the mouth with his doomsday predictions (the millennial heresy that coincides with the Arian heresy in Mormonism). But the few times I have listened to him his Mormonism was quite apparent.
    Problem is, I visit with evangelical after evangelical here, and there theology differs so slightly from Mormonism that sometimes you think they might just be brothers fighting with each other. And no one fights with each other better than brothers.
    There is a huge emphasis on feelings in both movements.
    There is almost no understanding of the trinity or why it matters. I mean I have to actually argue with some evangelicals that God died on the Cross, because they can’t see that Jesus is God.
    There is the Jesus Christ as example for us that goes along with this denial that he is actually God that shows up no where better than the commonly understood doctrine of the Lord’s Supper in evangelical circles that says it is just symbol.
    The Gospel gets confuses with “I don’t drink, I don’t chew, and I don’t date girls who do.” Of course if the girls don’t do that, all bets are off as to what they are willing to do, being trained their whole life to trust their feelings above all, including God’s word.
    There is the believer’s baptism part also.
    I’ll just leave it at that for now. Ironic that this column is written by a baptist…

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Mormonism is insidious with the kind of nationalism Beck preaches.
    They don’t get much of their theology from “The Book of Mormon” but this democratic small government is the form of Government God wants for his people, as Gospel, is found there.
    I can’t stand listening to Glen Beck, he whines too much, and you can see him frothing at the mouth with his doomsday predictions (the millennial heresy that coincides with the Arian heresy in Mormonism). But the few times I have listened to him his Mormonism was quite apparent.
    Problem is, I visit with evangelical after evangelical here, and there theology differs so slightly from Mormonism that sometimes you think they might just be brothers fighting with each other. And no one fights with each other better than brothers.
    There is a huge emphasis on feelings in both movements.
    There is almost no understanding of the trinity or why it matters. I mean I have to actually argue with some evangelicals that God died on the Cross, because they can’t see that Jesus is God.
    There is the Jesus Christ as example for us that goes along with this denial that he is actually God that shows up no where better than the commonly understood doctrine of the Lord’s Supper in evangelical circles that says it is just symbol.
    The Gospel gets confuses with “I don’t drink, I don’t chew, and I don’t date girls who do.” Of course if the girls don’t do that, all bets are off as to what they are willing to do, being trained their whole life to trust their feelings above all, including God’s word.
    There is the believer’s baptism part also.
    I’ll just leave it at that for now. Ironic that this column is written by a baptist…

  • Porcell

    Glen Beck is an opportunist taking advantage of deep-seated popular unrest in the country. He used to shill pop music; now he’s shilling shallow civic and pop religion.

    What the country needs is statesmen, such as Mitch Daniels and Paul Ryan, who can lead the country in a better direction.

  • Porcell

    Glen Beck is an opportunist taking advantage of deep-seated popular unrest in the country. He used to shill pop music; now he’s shilling shallow civic and pop religion.

    What the country needs is statesmen, such as Mitch Daniels and Paul Ryan, who can lead the country in a better direction.

  • Tom Hering

    Once God becomes the issue in politics, fruitful discussion is at an end. I do, nonetheless, thank Tea Party members for a year of good arguments – here and elsewhere. It was fun while it lasted.

  • Tom Hering

    Once God becomes the issue in politics, fruitful discussion is at an end. I do, nonetheless, thank Tea Party members for a year of good arguments – here and elsewhere. It was fun while it lasted.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Webmonk, Rich is an Associate Pastor at Blue Ridge Bible Church, in Purcellville, VA: http://brbible.org/about/church-leadership

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Webmonk, Rich is an Associate Pastor at Blue Ridge Bible Church, in Purcellville, VA: http://brbible.org/about/church-leadership

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    First time, I looked for the “Temporal Authority: To what Extent it should be Obeyed”, I had trouble finding the entire document on line. In case somebody wants it:

    http://tquid.sharpens.org/Temporal%20authority.htm

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    First time, I looked for the “Temporal Authority: To what Extent it should be Obeyed”, I had trouble finding the entire document on line. In case somebody wants it:

    http://tquid.sharpens.org/Temporal%20authority.htm

  • LAJ

    There are good things that Beck does on his show. He does teach people about the truth of the founding of America and fights against the liberal professors who do not teach the truth of our history. I do not like that he seems to think there are many paths to the same God. His book The Christmas Sweater is really weird where he gets into what he believes. I’ll probably get hammered on, but wouldn’t a return to the belief of God’s providence be good for the country? Then fewer people would look to the government for salvation. God works all things to good. Beck may just encourage more people to search for the real God, and Lutherans will be there with the answers. But you are correct, his teachings could lead many on a false road.

  • LAJ

    There are good things that Beck does on his show. He does teach people about the truth of the founding of America and fights against the liberal professors who do not teach the truth of our history. I do not like that he seems to think there are many paths to the same God. His book The Christmas Sweater is really weird where he gets into what he believes. I’ll probably get hammered on, but wouldn’t a return to the belief of God’s providence be good for the country? Then fewer people would look to the government for salvation. God works all things to good. Beck may just encourage more people to search for the real God, and Lutherans will be there with the answers. But you are correct, his teachings could lead many on a false road.

  • Cincinnatus

    But civic religion is an American tradition!

  • Cincinnatus

    But civic religion is an American tradition!

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @#14 Having studied under Doctor Arand – I took Confessions 1&2 from him at the sem – He doesn’t teach it as a replacement of Law and Gospel. The paradigms of Law and Gospel and the Horizontal and Vertical Righteousness (2kr) work together. He has been accused of trying to replace Law and Gospel, but it isn’t true.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @#14 Having studied under Doctor Arand – I took Confessions 1&2 from him at the sem – He doesn’t teach it as a replacement of Law and Gospel. The paradigms of Law and Gospel and the Horizontal and Vertical Righteousness (2kr) work together. He has been accused of trying to replace Law and Gospel, but it isn’t true.

  • larry

    FWS,

    You’ve got this one nailed down. Luther spoke very much that Christian righteousness, not the kingdom of the earth, (toward God/in the conscience) is hidden to the flesh (flesh = ALL that is fallen man, emotions, reason, experiences, etc…) and only revealed to faith. It has no rational import with the “quid pro quo” of the fallen world. Here Luther is brilliant in the Scriptures where he says that (my paraphrase), thus the devil takes on the mask of God (to the world’s way of thinking = flesh) and God takes on the mask of the devil (the way faith thinking, revealed only by the nude Word). God hides under the Cross, body under bread, blood under wine, righteousness under sin…etc… Thus, what looks like “God” via the way of the world is really the devil, and what does not looks like the devil or the devil puts on the mask of God and God puts on the mask of the devil as Luther put it.

    As to earthly righteousness, my choosing not to rob a liquor store does absolutely nothing for or against me. Unless I seek assurance in this action, then I’ve procured this in the heavenly kingdom, finding assurance in “my good/changed ways” or “personal relationship with Christ” – in that case I’m an idolator and apostate Christian.

    Left and right politics generally do one thing the same along with liberal theologians on one side and conservative theologians (heterodoxy) on the other, confuse the two kingdoms all over the place. It does not matter whether it’s Rome or Geneva or Salt Lake or the middle east – all confuse the two kingdoms, Law and Gospel, etc…

  • larry

    FWS,

    You’ve got this one nailed down. Luther spoke very much that Christian righteousness, not the kingdom of the earth, (toward God/in the conscience) is hidden to the flesh (flesh = ALL that is fallen man, emotions, reason, experiences, etc…) and only revealed to faith. It has no rational import with the “quid pro quo” of the fallen world. Here Luther is brilliant in the Scriptures where he says that (my paraphrase), thus the devil takes on the mask of God (to the world’s way of thinking = flesh) and God takes on the mask of the devil (the way faith thinking, revealed only by the nude Word). God hides under the Cross, body under bread, blood under wine, righteousness under sin…etc… Thus, what looks like “God” via the way of the world is really the devil, and what does not looks like the devil or the devil puts on the mask of God and God puts on the mask of the devil as Luther put it.

    As to earthly righteousness, my choosing not to rob a liquor store does absolutely nothing for or against me. Unless I seek assurance in this action, then I’ve procured this in the heavenly kingdom, finding assurance in “my good/changed ways” or “personal relationship with Christ” – in that case I’m an idolator and apostate Christian.

    Left and right politics generally do one thing the same along with liberal theologians on one side and conservative theologians (heterodoxy) on the other, confuse the two kingdoms all over the place. It does not matter whether it’s Rome or Geneva or Salt Lake or the middle east – all confuse the two kingdoms, Law and Gospel, etc…

  • larry

    As to true Gospel Luther said that because many men reject it (not due to sin but its pure grace message that is rejected, the Pharisees accepted the reality of sin) is proof of its truth, and that on the other hand that many men do belief it, that is proof of its power.

  • larry

    As to true Gospel Luther said that because many men reject it (not due to sin but its pure grace message that is rejected, the Pharisees accepted the reality of sin) is proof of its truth, and that on the other hand that many men do belief it, that is proof of its power.

  • larry

    The other thing Moore misses is that persecution is not only nor even primarily of the Sword. Yet another point Luther and even Calvin make commenting on Galatians. But primarily of the Word, doctrine. Even the persecution of the sword is ultimately aimed at the Word and not the physical body. Men can suffer the body, men cannot suffer and survive the unclean conscience, the true hell and gnashing of teeth. If, again, it was well understood that the damnation of the soul in hell is effected when men are driven into despair over the Gospel because false doctrine this would be better understood.

    This is why Luther said the harshest and most deadly persecution is false doctrine. Because it seeks to kill immediately the Word and promisings of God whereby faith is and lives alone.

    This is the very thing that IS going on in America today and this rally is another version of it.

    Which leads to another point Luther made crystal clear, if the Gospel is not being attacked, its not the gospel period. And the primary attack is the “hath God really said” against the Word and sacraments as Christ has instituted them.

    The great temptation Luther avoided and remained true to the Word was “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

  • larry

    The other thing Moore misses is that persecution is not only nor even primarily of the Sword. Yet another point Luther and even Calvin make commenting on Galatians. But primarily of the Word, doctrine. Even the persecution of the sword is ultimately aimed at the Word and not the physical body. Men can suffer the body, men cannot suffer and survive the unclean conscience, the true hell and gnashing of teeth. If, again, it was well understood that the damnation of the soul in hell is effected when men are driven into despair over the Gospel because false doctrine this would be better understood.

    This is why Luther said the harshest and most deadly persecution is false doctrine. Because it seeks to kill immediately the Word and promisings of God whereby faith is and lives alone.

    This is the very thing that IS going on in America today and this rally is another version of it.

    Which leads to another point Luther made crystal clear, if the Gospel is not being attacked, its not the gospel period. And the primary attack is the “hath God really said” against the Word and sacraments as Christ has instituted them.

    The great temptation Luther avoided and remained true to the Word was “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

  • http://webulite.com webulite

    Glen Beck is perfect for the reformed supernaturalistic type. He is anger and he talks alot. He as much in common with those that discuss reformed supernaturalism. Both groups are followed by very few people, but the ones that are involved are very active, radical, and angry. The majority of the population, simply ignore them.

    Cheers! webulite.com

  • http://webulite.com webulite

    Glen Beck is perfect for the reformed supernaturalistic type. He is anger and he talks alot. He as much in common with those that discuss reformed supernaturalism. Both groups are followed by very few people, but the ones that are involved are very active, radical, and angry. The majority of the population, simply ignore them.

    Cheers! webulite.com

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Dr Luther @ 21

    “@#14 Doctor Arand…..doesn’t teach it as a replacement of Law and Gospel. The paradigms of Law and Gospel and the Horizontal and Vertical Righteousness (2kr) work together. He has been accused of trying to replace Law and Gospel, but it isn’t true.”

    I fully agree with you. Gratefully so dr luther. I do think though that he misses that 2kr IS merely a distinction of law and gospel and is the same identical distinction as the two kingdoms doctrine. So they do not merely “work together”. They are just different ways of saying the same identical thing!

    I think Arand makes bronze age lutherans suspicious because what he says makes it sound like innovation. It is so not. It is nothing less than a constant paradym that is the superstructure for the entire earlier confessions of the Church of the Augsburg confession. It is an important modality for expressing law and gospel. The way this same idea is expressed is the contrast of sacrifice vs acts of mercy.

    Rome (and later melanchthon/calvin) proposed that sacrifice alone (mortification) = righteousness. Obedience to God´s precepts is to conform to his Image is the idea. Law=God´s Image and Will. The Lutherans in contrast, said that true eartly righteousness = mortification + love-in-actions always. And this is all Old Adam, and earthly, flesh/body stuff. Their comment that sacrificial works are useless was not merely a side comment therefore. it was THE argument. Love is always the evidence and purpose of righteousness.

    Then they point out that aristotilean virtue ethics that says we become righteous as a habit by doing righteousness is absolutely correct as to earthly righteousness (confessions : “nothing can be added to the ethical system of aristotle”) but this idea is poison and satanic as to heavenly righteousness. there we can only do go by first becoming good by being born again. In the heavenly kingdom only in Jesus can we know God´s Image and his Will. This is not something the Law can reveal even to sanctified believers. The Law always kills. Regardless of Calvin´s and the Reformed fantasizing.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Dr Luther @ 21

    “@#14 Doctor Arand…..doesn’t teach it as a replacement of Law and Gospel. The paradigms of Law and Gospel and the Horizontal and Vertical Righteousness (2kr) work together. He has been accused of trying to replace Law and Gospel, but it isn’t true.”

    I fully agree with you. Gratefully so dr luther. I do think though that he misses that 2kr IS merely a distinction of law and gospel and is the same identical distinction as the two kingdoms doctrine. So they do not merely “work together”. They are just different ways of saying the same identical thing!

    I think Arand makes bronze age lutherans suspicious because what he says makes it sound like innovation. It is so not. It is nothing less than a constant paradym that is the superstructure for the entire earlier confessions of the Church of the Augsburg confession. It is an important modality for expressing law and gospel. The way this same idea is expressed is the contrast of sacrifice vs acts of mercy.

    Rome (and later melanchthon/calvin) proposed that sacrifice alone (mortification) = righteousness. Obedience to God´s precepts is to conform to his Image is the idea. Law=God´s Image and Will. The Lutherans in contrast, said that true eartly righteousness = mortification + love-in-actions always. And this is all Old Adam, and earthly, flesh/body stuff. Their comment that sacrificial works are useless was not merely a side comment therefore. it was THE argument. Love is always the evidence and purpose of righteousness.

    Then they point out that aristotilean virtue ethics that says we become righteous as a habit by doing righteousness is absolutely correct as to earthly righteousness (confessions : “nothing can be added to the ethical system of aristotle”) but this idea is poison and satanic as to heavenly righteousness. there we can only do go by first becoming good by being born again. In the heavenly kingdom only in Jesus can we know God´s Image and his Will. This is not something the Law can reveal even to sanctified believers. The Law always kills. Regardless of Calvin´s and the Reformed fantasizing.

  • John C

    There is more than a touch of the Elmer Gantry about Beck. The event at the Lincoln Memorial was little more than revival meeting.
    Glen has just started Beck University, LAJ. I recommend you drop history and try another subject.

  • John C

    There is more than a touch of the Elmer Gantry about Beck. The event at the Lincoln Memorial was little more than revival meeting.
    Glen has just started Beck University, LAJ. I recommend you drop history and try another subject.

  • http://SecretSpeakers.com Karey

    I looked up Professor Veith’s website in a search on Apologetics, and I’m frankly surprised at the level of judgment and negativity aimed at one’s fellow man in this post. How Christian is it to call another un-Christian? Where is the loving Spirit of Christ exemplified?

    I suggest there are those of you out there who see we can be in the world without being of the world–even when it comes to acknowledging another persons radical views–and simply take the higher road of love as Christ taught. How much more fulfilling of our unique purpose as God’s children to go about doing good, serving those around us than to criticize and condemn.

    Christ was and is our example in love. May we extend love to others even if we don’t agree with them, for we are all children of God. We may not agree with Glenn Beck in the least, but would Christ have us love him as He loves him? If the man were wounded and lying on the street outside your home would you drive past him?

    When ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    Again, if he were lying wounded on the street in front of your house what would you do?

  • http://SecretSpeakers.com Karey

    I looked up Professor Veith’s website in a search on Apologetics, and I’m frankly surprised at the level of judgment and negativity aimed at one’s fellow man in this post. How Christian is it to call another un-Christian? Where is the loving Spirit of Christ exemplified?

    I suggest there are those of you out there who see we can be in the world without being of the world–even when it comes to acknowledging another persons radical views–and simply take the higher road of love as Christ taught. How much more fulfilling of our unique purpose as God’s children to go about doing good, serving those around us than to criticize and condemn.

    Christ was and is our example in love. May we extend love to others even if we don’t agree with them, for we are all children of God. We may not agree with Glenn Beck in the least, but would Christ have us love him as He loves him? If the man were wounded and lying on the street outside your home would you drive past him?

    When ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    Again, if he were lying wounded on the street in front of your house what would you do?

  • Don

    I don’t think it fair or wise to classify individuals into categorical imperatives. What are the requirements for calling a nation to repentance? Perhaps we should look no further than the book of Esther to discover the Divine Will at work in nationalism. Has the Lord’s Arm been waxed short?

  • Don

    I don’t think it fair or wise to classify individuals into categorical imperatives. What are the requirements for calling a nation to repentance? Perhaps we should look no further than the book of Esther to discover the Divine Will at work in nationalism. Has the Lord’s Arm been waxed short?

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Karey,
    Recognizing that someone is not a Christian by judging the doctrine that they hold is a Christian thing to do. It would be unloving of us, tantamount to driving by him in the street with a gunshot wound to the chest to ignore his doctrinal errors.
    I haven’t heard anyone here proclaim a hatred for Glen Beck. We hate the doctrine he has received from the devil and labeled Christian. And many of us can’t stand his media personality either. But that is another issue.
    That we hate his doctrine in no way means we would not help him if we saw he had a head wound.
    That said, his doctrine is quite dangerous not only for him but many who listen to him. 1 Tim. 4:16 (ESV)
    Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Karey,
    Recognizing that someone is not a Christian by judging the doctrine that they hold is a Christian thing to do. It would be unloving of us, tantamount to driving by him in the street with a gunshot wound to the chest to ignore his doctrinal errors.
    I haven’t heard anyone here proclaim a hatred for Glen Beck. We hate the doctrine he has received from the devil and labeled Christian. And many of us can’t stand his media personality either. But that is another issue.
    That we hate his doctrine in no way means we would not help him if we saw he had a head wound.
    That said, his doctrine is quite dangerous not only for him but many who listen to him. 1 Tim. 4:16 (ESV)
    Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

  • Tom Hering

    “… if he were lying wounded on the street in front of your house what would you do?”

    I would do exactly what he’d want me to do – hand him a microphone, apply makeup, roll cameras.

  • Tom Hering

    “… if he were lying wounded on the street in front of your house what would you do?”

    I would do exactly what he’d want me to do – hand him a microphone, apply makeup, roll cameras.

  • Tom Hering

    Oops. Almost forgot the Vicks VapoRub.

  • Tom Hering

    Oops. Almost forgot the Vicks VapoRub.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Given that Mormons are largely descended from the original Puritan colonists, it seems somehow fitting that they would take an interest in promoting religion as a cure for social pathologies. I mean, hey, it works for them. Interesting book review on Mormons’ Puritan roots:

    http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=7598

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Given that Mormons are largely descended from the original Puritan colonists, it seems somehow fitting that they would take an interest in promoting religion as a cure for social pathologies. I mean, hey, it works for them. Interesting book review on Mormons’ Puritan roots:

    http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=7598

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is a googlebooks link to the book. Very interesting if you like history of religious movements. Since these are Mormons, it is no surprise that the actual family lines are studied thoroughly. It adds an interesting dimension.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=t9x-gtmX1uMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is a googlebooks link to the book. Very interesting if you like history of religious movements. Since these are Mormons, it is no surprise that the actual family lines are studied thoroughly. It adds an interesting dimension.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=t9x-gtmX1uMC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Wow!

    I strongly agree with Mr. Moore. And I’m glad to see I’m not alone in doing so. To be perfectly honest, this topic is pretty much the reason I started commenting here (and is at least part of why I’ve continued to stick around, though I’ve kind of grown fond of the lot of you in spite of my initial animus).

    And we can already see how God uses the foolishness of men to further his own, perfect will: “it is because of this kind of stuff, I and the other pastor in our congregation have been hammering away at the theology of the Two Kingdoms” (@9). Hurrah (assuming that by “hammering away at”, you mean “teaching forcefully” and not “forcefully abrading” :) )!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Wow!

    I strongly agree with Mr. Moore. And I’m glad to see I’m not alone in doing so. To be perfectly honest, this topic is pretty much the reason I started commenting here (and is at least part of why I’ve continued to stick around, though I’ve kind of grown fond of the lot of you in spite of my initial animus).

    And we can already see how God uses the foolishness of men to further his own, perfect will: “it is because of this kind of stuff, I and the other pastor in our congregation have been hammering away at the theology of the Two Kingdoms” (@9). Hurrah (assuming that by “hammering away at”, you mean “teaching forcefully” and not “forcefully abrading” :) )!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This, Glenn Beck,is all about building the kingdom of God on earth. This country MUST succeed because Mormonism depends on it. We all know that the teaching of the Mormon church about this country is that its God’s Zion. This country, according to Mormons, is where Christ will return and turn the whole world to Joe Smith’s religion. Many so called Christians who believe that this country MUST succeed are just delusional. They don’t have a clue about God’s Kingdom. They are placing hope in politicians, not the Messiah.”

    I talk to many atheist conservatives who lament the decline in religion because hedonism disgusts them. Anyway, they prefer Mormons because Mormons have lots of kids who do well in school and stay out of jail. They like the Mormons building whatever kingdom they are building in the here and now.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This, Glenn Beck,is all about building the kingdom of God on earth. This country MUST succeed because Mormonism depends on it. We all know that the teaching of the Mormon church about this country is that its God’s Zion. This country, according to Mormons, is where Christ will return and turn the whole world to Joe Smith’s religion. Many so called Christians who believe that this country MUST succeed are just delusional. They don’t have a clue about God’s Kingdom. They are placing hope in politicians, not the Messiah.”

    I talk to many atheist conservatives who lament the decline in religion because hedonism disgusts them. Anyway, they prefer Mormons because Mormons have lots of kids who do well in school and stay out of jail. They like the Mormons building whatever kingdom they are building in the here and now.

  • Rich Shipe

    So who is WebMonk? I don’t remember meeting a Mr. Monk. Or is it Dr. Monk? Or Mrs. Monk? Or Miss Monk? :) (is it possible to be a female monk, even of the web variety?)

  • Rich Shipe

    So who is WebMonk? I don’t remember meeting a Mr. Monk. Or is it Dr. Monk? Or Mrs. Monk? Or Miss Monk? :) (is it possible to be a female monk, even of the web variety?)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Karey (@31), you asked, “How Christian is it to call another un-Christian? Where is the loving Spirit of Christ exemplified?”

    No offense, but I have to ask when the last time was you read the words of Christ. Read Matthew 23 for an example (though certainly not the only one) of what Christ himself said to Glenn Beck’s philosophical forebears.

    Christ is indeed our example of how to love (though, thank God, he is rather more than that). But let’s not be fooled that “love” means never pointing out that someone is wrong — and not just wrong, but even a Satan-influenced “son of Hell”. Jesus knew when to call a sin a sin and a lie a lie. And thank God that he did!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Karey (@31), you asked, “How Christian is it to call another un-Christian? Where is the loving Spirit of Christ exemplified?”

    No offense, but I have to ask when the last time was you read the words of Christ. Read Matthew 23 for an example (though certainly not the only one) of what Christ himself said to Glenn Beck’s philosophical forebears.

    Christ is indeed our example of how to love (though, thank God, he is rather more than that). But let’s not be fooled that “love” means never pointing out that someone is wrong — and not just wrong, but even a Satan-influenced “son of Hell”. Jesus knew when to call a sin a sin and a lie a lie. And thank God that he did!

  • Bob

    Mr. Moore pretty well nailed it.

    I wonder if what will happen is that those types of Christian faith that are American based, sectarians and millenniarians, and/or are based on a direct experience of God (which, in my view, is a very American POV), will coalesce under the Beck brand. I’m thinking of groups like Mormons, nondenom/dispensationalists, and others who don’t have a strong understanding of the separation of church and state.

    Christians who belong to communions that did not originate here in the US, have their own history and theology and use liturgy, such as RCC, Lutherans, Episcopalians, the Orthodox, and others with a non-American point of view, or origin, will not be a part of it — except those who don’t have a strong church/state theology, or are seduced by the American right-wing narrative. Those folks are in for a squirmy time.

  • Bob

    Mr. Moore pretty well nailed it.

    I wonder if what will happen is that those types of Christian faith that are American based, sectarians and millenniarians, and/or are based on a direct experience of God (which, in my view, is a very American POV), will coalesce under the Beck brand. I’m thinking of groups like Mormons, nondenom/dispensationalists, and others who don’t have a strong understanding of the separation of church and state.

    Christians who belong to communions that did not originate here in the US, have their own history and theology and use liturgy, such as RCC, Lutherans, Episcopalians, the Orthodox, and others with a non-American point of view, or origin, will not be a part of it — except those who don’t have a strong church/state theology, or are seduced by the American right-wing narrative. Those folks are in for a squirmy time.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    If I saw Glen Beck on lying injured on the road, I’d ask for his autograph while waiting for the ambulance to arrive. As heated as debate can get here it largely stays very civil, so I find it hard to believe there has been any hate expressed with the exception of the hate of a false gospel. Hate for a false gospel is fully justified considering the bible itself refers to any other gospel as cr@p.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    If I saw Glen Beck on lying injured on the road, I’d ask for his autograph while waiting for the ambulance to arrive. As heated as debate can get here it largely stays very civil, so I find it hard to believe there has been any hate expressed with the exception of the hate of a false gospel. Hate for a false gospel is fully justified considering the bible itself refers to any other gospel as cr@p.

  • colliebear06

    I did not watch the event, so I am only going on the reports and comments I’ve read.
    My first reaction was to cringe – it brings to mind Shirley Dobson and the National Day of Prayer. Years ago, her favorite bible quote relating to the NDOP was II Chronicles 7:14:
    - if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land-.
    By quoting this verse, does she believe “land” refers to the political boundaries of the U.S.?, I always wondered. Maybe some of you pastors can help me out on this, what does “land” in this IIChronicles passage refer to? I always thought it was a reference to, in the NT sense, all believers (the world over).

  • colliebear06

    I did not watch the event, so I am only going on the reports and comments I’ve read.
    My first reaction was to cringe – it brings to mind Shirley Dobson and the National Day of Prayer. Years ago, her favorite bible quote relating to the NDOP was II Chronicles 7:14:
    - if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land-.
    By quoting this verse, does she believe “land” refers to the political boundaries of the U.S.?, I always wondered. Maybe some of you pastors can help me out on this, what does “land” in this IIChronicles passage refer to? I always thought it was a reference to, in the NT sense, all believers (the world over).

  • http://SecretSpeakers.com Karey

    @35, @36, Tom Hering,

    Ha, ha! Give Beck and microphone and some makeup. Do unto others as they like to be done by. Spot on. I’m still laughing!

    and @45 tODD, you bring up some wonderful points and I concede I focused more on the negativity I saw here in these posts rather than seeing them as pointing out Beck’s falsity. It’s safe to say, in reference to Matthew 23 that he is wearing a very broad phylactery, and the borders of his garments are greatly enlarged. Unfortunately his focus is not on Christ.

    I am just as disappointed as the rest of you that Beck has attached his promotional, entrepreneurial efforts to the sacred work of Christianity. The Lord is my light.

  • http://SecretSpeakers.com Karey

    @35, @36, Tom Hering,

    Ha, ha! Give Beck and microphone and some makeup. Do unto others as they like to be done by. Spot on. I’m still laughing!

    and @45 tODD, you bring up some wonderful points and I concede I focused more on the negativity I saw here in these posts rather than seeing them as pointing out Beck’s falsity. It’s safe to say, in reference to Matthew 23 that he is wearing a very broad phylactery, and the borders of his garments are greatly enlarged. Unfortunately his focus is not on Christ.

    I am just as disappointed as the rest of you that Beck has attached his promotional, entrepreneurial efforts to the sacred work of Christianity. The Lord is my light.

  • Liberal Arts Heretic

    “…American “Christianity” has been a political agenda…”

    This is exactly what Peter J Leithart addresses in his book “Against Christianity.” He teaches that “Christianity,” as practiced, makes the church a subculture among other subcultures, whereas Biblically it is supposed to BE culture, as it is being/has been remade by Christ. It is an interesting and audacious read, and has opened my eyes to many unconscious presuppositions of American “Christianity.”

  • Liberal Arts Heretic

    “…American “Christianity” has been a political agenda…”

    This is exactly what Peter J Leithart addresses in his book “Against Christianity.” He teaches that “Christianity,” as practiced, makes the church a subculture among other subcultures, whereas Biblically it is supposed to BE culture, as it is being/has been remade by Christ. It is an interesting and audacious read, and has opened my eyes to many unconscious presuppositions of American “Christianity.”

  • Porcell

    SG: …Interesting book review on Mormons’ Puritan roots…

    Read closely that book review questions the assumption that Mormons have Puritan roots.

    Puritans at their best followed Melanchthon’s and Calvin’s synthesis of the Renaissance and Reformation. They would hardly fall for some uneducated fanatic who claimed to have found golden tablets of God’s Word. Sure, many Mormons were descended fromPuritans, though that proves nothing, even for someone trying to score Lutheran points.

  • Porcell

    SG: …Interesting book review on Mormons’ Puritan roots…

    Read closely that book review questions the assumption that Mormons have Puritan roots.

    Puritans at their best followed Melanchthon’s and Calvin’s synthesis of the Renaissance and Reformation. They would hardly fall for some uneducated fanatic who claimed to have found golden tablets of God’s Word. Sure, many Mormons were descended fromPuritans, though that proves nothing, even for someone trying to score Lutheran points.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    2 Chron 7:14 is the second half of a sentence that begins in 2 Chron 7:13, which makes it clear that the “land” being referred to is the actual dirt that produces crops. I’m not sure that this verse can be legitimately extended to apply to modern geo-political institutions.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    2 Chron 7:14 is the second half of a sentence that begins in 2 Chron 7:13, which makes it clear that the “land” being referred to is the actual dirt that produces crops. I’m not sure that this verse can be legitimately extended to apply to modern geo-political institutions.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg@39
    “I talk to many atheist conservatives who lament the decline in religion because hedonism disgusts them. Anyway, they prefer Mormons because Mormons have lots of kids who do well in school and stay out of jail. They like the Mormons building whatever kingdom they are building in the here and now.”
    Those atheists must not live in Utah. I go to jail often, and it is highly populated with Mormons. Go figure. I think Paul says somewhere something about the law awakening sin, where was that…

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg@39
    “I talk to many atheist conservatives who lament the decline in religion because hedonism disgusts them. Anyway, they prefer Mormons because Mormons have lots of kids who do well in school and stay out of jail. They like the Mormons building whatever kingdom they are building in the here and now.”
    Those atheists must not live in Utah. I go to jail often, and it is highly populated with Mormons. Go figure. I think Paul says somewhere something about the law awakening sin, where was that…

  • Tom Hering

    Karey @ 45, welcome to Cranach. It never hurts to remind us (re: @ 31) we were born, and born again, to know and show the love of God.

  • Tom Hering

    Karey @ 45, welcome to Cranach. It never hurts to remind us (re: @ 31) we were born, and born again, to know and show the love of God.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those atheists must not live in Utah. I go to jail often, and it is highly populated with Mormons. Go figure. I think Paul says somewhere something about the law awakening sin, where was that…”

    I figure that is because Utah is highly populated with Mormons.
    Statistically speaking, they don’t go to jail often. The fact that their criminality is not zero, does not show that it is high. Their crime rate is low not zero.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those atheists must not live in Utah. I go to jail often, and it is highly populated with Mormons. Go figure. I think Paul says somewhere something about the law awakening sin, where was that…”

    I figure that is because Utah is highly populated with Mormons.
    Statistically speaking, they don’t go to jail often. The fact that their criminality is not zero, does not show that it is high. Their crime rate is low not zero.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Um.. Pastor Bror… you go to jail often? Are you being persecuted, or do you maybe have a habit of jaywalking at just the wrong time? :-)

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Um.. Pastor Bror… you go to jail often? Are you being persecuted, or do you maybe have a habit of jaywalking at just the wrong time? :-)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Karey @ 45 Welcome to Cranach. I second my brother Tom. It is always great to be reminded to be kind and to show love. God demands nothing less than this of all of us.

    I hope you stick around . Your comments are great.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Karey @ 45 Welcome to Cranach. I second my brother Tom. It is always great to be reminded to be kind and to show love. God demands nothing less than this of all of us.

    I hope you stick around . Your comments are great.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Mike,
    Actually the most blatant persecution I have come up against in Utah was when they kicked me out of jail. But that is a long story and it was quickly fixed by an astute Lieutenant, who happened to be Roman Catholic.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Mike,
    Actually the most blatant persecution I have come up against in Utah was when they kicked me out of jail. But that is a long story and it was quickly fixed by an astute Lieutenant, who happened to be Roman Catholic.

  • Tom Hering

    “Does the Beck rally herald a deepening of the movement, or the sell-out of Christians to an interfaith–and essentially Mormon–quest for political power?”

    Neither. FOX supported and promoted the Tea Party movement. Now it’s time (pre-election) for FOX to take it to the next level, and make sure that it profits from its investment.

  • Tom Hering

    “Does the Beck rally herald a deepening of the movement, or the sell-out of Christians to an interfaith–and essentially Mormon–quest for political power?”

    Neither. FOX supported and promoted the Tea Party movement. Now it’s time (pre-election) for FOX to take it to the next level, and make sure that it profits from its investment.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg,
    Amazing.
    however I was also going to mention that in high school my best drinking buddies were Mormon, and they rarely kept it at drinking and tobacco…
    Sorry they are people like the rest of us and prone to sin. But my experience is the hypocrisy bread by their religion adds an extra bit of stench. They can have their values.
    The twisted fact is that those values are intertwined with a lie, and when the lie is exposed it isn’t just the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith that gets abandoned.
    I don’t think I would agree at all with your atheist friends at all. For the simple fact that I don’t think it is morally right to raise your children in a lie, a lie maintained by shear strength of will on their part. It isn’t hard to see the lie for what it is, but they don’t give it up, not easily. And I have known many of them admit that they don’t believe it, but then its good family values and that is what counts. Makes this next weeks gospel reading hit home around here, “if anyone does not hate…. he is not able to be my disciple. “

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg,
    Amazing.
    however I was also going to mention that in high school my best drinking buddies were Mormon, and they rarely kept it at drinking and tobacco…
    Sorry they are people like the rest of us and prone to sin. But my experience is the hypocrisy bread by their religion adds an extra bit of stench. They can have their values.
    The twisted fact is that those values are intertwined with a lie, and when the lie is exposed it isn’t just the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith that gets abandoned.
    I don’t think I would agree at all with your atheist friends at all. For the simple fact that I don’t think it is morally right to raise your children in a lie, a lie maintained by shear strength of will on their part. It isn’t hard to see the lie for what it is, but they don’t give it up, not easily. And I have known many of them admit that they don’t believe it, but then its good family values and that is what counts. Makes this next weeks gospel reading hit home around here, “if anyone does not hate…. he is not able to be my disciple. “

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    thanks J. :)

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    thanks J. :)

  • Cincinnatus

    J: Why? Just provide us with data that shows Mormons don’t go to jail that often in general. Regional data won’t be entirely helpful, because obviously a greater percentage of inmates in Utah or Idaho, for instance, are going to be Mormons because the population from which such data would be extracted would be overwhelmingly Mormon. But that says little or nothing about the incarceration rates of Mormons as a whole population. My guess is that sg is correct, for the Mormons are a rather law-abiding group.

  • Cincinnatus

    J: Why? Just provide us with data that shows Mormons don’t go to jail that often in general. Regional data won’t be entirely helpful, because obviously a greater percentage of inmates in Utah or Idaho, for instance, are going to be Mormons because the population from which such data would be extracted would be overwhelmingly Mormon. But that says little or nothing about the incarceration rates of Mormons as a whole population. My guess is that sg is correct, for the Mormons are a rather law-abiding group.

  • http://webulite.com webulite

    Do you folks argue supernaturalism only, or is anyone interested in the study of the history of christianity.

    I study the history, from about the time of the maccabees to about 200CE, sometimes as far ahead as 325CE.

    If that is something anyone is interested in, feel free to get in touch with me.

    Cheers! webulite.com

  • http://webulite.com webulite

    Do you folks argue supernaturalism only, or is anyone interested in the study of the history of christianity.

    I study the history, from about the time of the maccabees to about 200CE, sometimes as far ahead as 325CE.

    If that is something anyone is interested in, feel free to get in touch with me.

    Cheers! webulite.com

  • Cincinnatus

    webulite: Do you attempt consciously to be an irrelevant, quasi-troll in every thread you visit?

    But do tell us: what do you know about the history of Christianity that is supposedly germane to this discussion?

  • Cincinnatus

    webulite: Do you attempt consciously to be an irrelevant, quasi-troll in every thread you visit?

    But do tell us: what do you know about the history of Christianity that is supposedly germane to this discussion?

  • Tom Hering

    Quasi-troll? I’ve never known webulite to do anything but tempt commenters away into private discussions at webulite.com.

  • Tom Hering

    Quasi-troll? I’ve never known webulite to do anything but tempt commenters away into private discussions at webulite.com.

  • L. H. Kevil

    I am amazed at the negativity of many of the commenters and of Russell Moore. Beck is not Lutheran, but as I understand it, a Roman Catholic turned Mormon. We can agree that his theology is likely pretty well screwed up. Just like that of most Americans. But all of us can recognize a core of morality, no matter how deviate our theological beliefs. We are after all a predominately Christian country in a post-christian decline. A call to return to the morality almost universally accepted in our past is not nothing I would ever denigrate. Since the event was not a church service, what is there to complain about? Perhaps turning our attention to morality will lead some fence-sitters to the truth.

  • L. H. Kevil

    I am amazed at the negativity of many of the commenters and of Russell Moore. Beck is not Lutheran, but as I understand it, a Roman Catholic turned Mormon. We can agree that his theology is likely pretty well screwed up. Just like that of most Americans. But all of us can recognize a core of morality, no matter how deviate our theological beliefs. We are after all a predominately Christian country in a post-christian decline. A call to return to the morality almost universally accepted in our past is not nothing I would ever denigrate. Since the event was not a church service, what is there to complain about? Perhaps turning our attention to morality will lead some fence-sitters to the truth.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @63 Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things.

    Hypocrisy and despair.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @63 Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things.

    Hypocrisy and despair.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    @64

    what dr luther AND the real dr martin luther says….

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    @64

    what dr luther AND the real dr martin luther says….

  • Annette Welburn

    Honestly, I think he’s got a good point. However, I would say that most Mormons are taught to use very Christian terms. The sad truth is that the majority of Christians who love Glen Beck have NO idea that he isn’t Christian. This is a very good lesson: Mormon terminology is extremely decieving. Sadly, most Mormons are great folks who probably aren’t intentionally deceiving Christians, they just repeat what they’re taught to say. The god of Mormonism is absolutely not the God of the Bible, or Christianity. Very good to be aware of!

  • Annette Welburn

    Honestly, I think he’s got a good point. However, I would say that most Mormons are taught to use very Christian terms. The sad truth is that the majority of Christians who love Glen Beck have NO idea that he isn’t Christian. This is a very good lesson: Mormon terminology is extremely decieving. Sadly, most Mormons are great folks who probably aren’t intentionally deceiving Christians, they just repeat what they’re taught to say. The god of Mormonism is absolutely not the God of the Bible, or Christianity. Very good to be aware of!

  • Another Kerner

    A sincere question or two may be called for here:

    What groups and/or events, of a semi-political or political nature may Christians attend in order to bring about the return to a constitutional republic without demanding doctrinal purity or spiritual accord with all others in attendance?

    May we recite the Pledge to the flag with others not of our own Confession?

    I am well aware of the profound differences between some Christian denominations and others….. and certainly am conscious of the origins of Mormonism and know what must be rejected….and my family also has a considerable working acquaintanceship with the American “civil religion”, so called.

    If the two kingdoms are confused, tyranny often results…no argument from me.

    But folks, what political action committees, ad hoc committees, and/or organizations (aside from the two primary political parties), and what rally or event may Christians join or attend in order to gather together with others who are working to preserve freedom?

    As mentioned elsewhere, it is going to take more than confessional Lutherans in the body politic to secure continuned religious freedom: and it is certainly going to take more than confessional Lutherans to hold back the onslaught of the Turks.

  • Another Kerner

    A sincere question or two may be called for here:

    What groups and/or events, of a semi-political or political nature may Christians attend in order to bring about the return to a constitutional republic without demanding doctrinal purity or spiritual accord with all others in attendance?

    May we recite the Pledge to the flag with others not of our own Confession?

    I am well aware of the profound differences between some Christian denominations and others….. and certainly am conscious of the origins of Mormonism and know what must be rejected….and my family also has a considerable working acquaintanceship with the American “civil religion”, so called.

    If the two kingdoms are confused, tyranny often results…no argument from me.

    But folks, what political action committees, ad hoc committees, and/or organizations (aside from the two primary political parties), and what rally or event may Christians join or attend in order to gather together with others who are working to preserve freedom?

    As mentioned elsewhere, it is going to take more than confessional Lutherans in the body politic to secure continuned religious freedom: and it is certainly going to take more than confessional Lutherans to hold back the onslaught of the Turks.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I don’t think I would agree at all with your atheist friends at all. For the simple fact that I don’t think it is morally right to raise your children in a lie, a lie maintained by shear strength of will on their part.”

    They are atheists, and think all religion is a lie. However, as rationalists, they also know society as a whole can’t function without religion. They think it is morally wrong to bring up kids with no morals and ethics. Based on its record, they generally think Christianity is the most efficacious religion, and LDS is just another sect that right now is serving the function a religion needs to serve in order for civilization to continue. I am not saying I think that. Just reporting.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I don’t think I would agree at all with your atheist friends at all. For the simple fact that I don’t think it is morally right to raise your children in a lie, a lie maintained by shear strength of will on their part.”

    They are atheists, and think all religion is a lie. However, as rationalists, they also know society as a whole can’t function without religion. They think it is morally wrong to bring up kids with no morals and ethics. Based on its record, they generally think Christianity is the most efficacious religion, and LDS is just another sect that right now is serving the function a religion needs to serve in order for civilization to continue. I am not saying I think that. Just reporting.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “@63 Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things.

    Hypocrisy and despair.”

    Oh, is that all?

    Okay, I exaggerate, but honestly, life has to be really good for those to look bad. I mean every single person who has any sense of morality at all is a hypocrite, and probably many have experienced at least a moment of despair at some point.

    I saw a video about Liberia and the problem they are having with cannibalism of children. Man, gut wrenching. I am sure they would consider it a refreshing change to merely have to endure a little hypocrisy and despair.

    Morality is a good thing. As is food and water. None get you into heaven. This is true. However, morality is very important.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “@63 Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things.

    Hypocrisy and despair.”

    Oh, is that all?

    Okay, I exaggerate, but honestly, life has to be really good for those to look bad. I mean every single person who has any sense of morality at all is a hypocrite, and probably many have experienced at least a moment of despair at some point.

    I saw a video about Liberia and the problem they are having with cannibalism of children. Man, gut wrenching. I am sure they would consider it a refreshing change to merely have to endure a little hypocrisy and despair.

    Morality is a good thing. As is food and water. None get you into heaven. This is true. However, morality is very important.

  • Tom Hering

    “A call to return to the morality almost universally accepted in our past is not nothing I would ever denigrate.” – L. H. Kevil @ 63.

    Nor would I. Unless that call is just incoherent rambling.

  • Tom Hering

    “A call to return to the morality almost universally accepted in our past is not nothing I would ever denigrate.” – L. H. Kevil @ 63.

    Nor would I. Unless that call is just incoherent rambling.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Would you identify the percentage of inmates in local, state and federal prisons by religion, then break it down to per capita by religion?”

    Quick google and voilà, crime stats:

    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

    It is a little out of date, and therefore Mormons are more represented than they would be in current stats because Utah is so nice it is a magnet for others.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Would you identify the percentage of inmates in local, state and federal prisons by religion, then break it down to per capita by religion?”

    Quick google and voilà, crime stats:

    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

    It is a little out of date, and therefore Mormons are more represented than they would be in current stats because Utah is so nice it is a magnet for others.

  • Winston Smith

    colliebear06 @ 44: “I always wondered … what does ‘land’ in this IIChronicles passage [7:14] refer to?”

    It refers to the promised land given to the nation of Israel. God’s covenant with His chosen people was directly tied to the land that God promised to them and gave them. If they kept the covenant, they prospered in the land, and if they disobeyed the terms of the covenant, they were occasionally invaded or even driven out of the land.

    That is the Old Covenant. Those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are under the New Covenant, which has no relationship to any piece of land. In the Old Testament, God’s people were a nation, Israel; in the New Testament, God’s people are the church, “elect from every nation, yet one through all the earth.”

    II Chronicles 7:14, therefore, would seem not to apply to the United States, as it is quoted on the National Day of Prayer and similar occasions, unless it is used to imply that the United States, as a (sort-of, at one time, anyway) Christian nation is in the same relationship to God as was Old Testament Israel, which it most definitely is not.

    The Christian faith is primarily a personal relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ, and secondarily an involvement with other believers in the church. God does not deal with His people in the New Covenant through politicians or the government.

  • Winston Smith

    colliebear06 @ 44: “I always wondered … what does ‘land’ in this IIChronicles passage [7:14] refer to?”

    It refers to the promised land given to the nation of Israel. God’s covenant with His chosen people was directly tied to the land that God promised to them and gave them. If they kept the covenant, they prospered in the land, and if they disobeyed the terms of the covenant, they were occasionally invaded or even driven out of the land.

    That is the Old Covenant. Those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are under the New Covenant, which has no relationship to any piece of land. In the Old Testament, God’s people were a nation, Israel; in the New Testament, God’s people are the church, “elect from every nation, yet one through all the earth.”

    II Chronicles 7:14, therefore, would seem not to apply to the United States, as it is quoted on the National Day of Prayer and similar occasions, unless it is used to imply that the United States, as a (sort-of, at one time, anyway) Christian nation is in the same relationship to God as was Old Testament Israel, which it most definitely is not.

    The Christian faith is primarily a personal relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ, and secondarily an involvement with other believers in the church. God does not deal with His people in the New Covenant through politicians or the government.

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  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Porcell,

    “Puritans at their best followed Melanchthon’s and Calvin’s synthesis of the Renaissance and Reformation. They would hardly fall for some uneducated fanatic who claimed to have found golden tablets of God’s Word.”

    Yeah, the author points out that many were folks from the very fringe who converted to LDS, rather than folks from among mainstream Puritans.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Porcell,

    “Puritans at their best followed Melanchthon’s and Calvin’s synthesis of the Renaissance and Reformation. They would hardly fall for some uneducated fanatic who claimed to have found golden tablets of God’s Word.”

    Yeah, the author points out that many were folks from the very fringe who converted to LDS, rather than folks from among mainstream Puritans.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @69 Morality without the grace of God is worthless. Morality isn’t going to stop the cannabilism. Instead, people will in the name of morality stone women. They will put people on trial because they said the wrong thing. They will stand on the corner and beat their chest and yell look how good I am while they go home and beat their children. That is a morality the world can live with out. Morality born out of the Grace of God? That will change the world.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @69 Morality without the grace of God is worthless. Morality isn’t going to stop the cannabilism. Instead, people will in the name of morality stone women. They will put people on trial because they said the wrong thing. They will stand on the corner and beat their chest and yell look how good I am while they go home and beat their children. That is a morality the world can live with out. Morality born out of the Grace of God? That will change the world.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Morality without the grace of God is worthless.”

    Yes, of course, ultimately. But in the here and now, the morality of my atheist neighbor makes my life better even if he may be in despair without God.

    “Morality isn’t going to stop the cannibalism”

    I am not sure I understand this statement. What do you mean? I mean what else stops people from doing such things?
    Honest question.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Morality without the grace of God is worthless.”

    Yes, of course, ultimately. But in the here and now, the morality of my atheist neighbor makes my life better even if he may be in despair without God.

    “Morality isn’t going to stop the cannibalism”

    I am not sure I understand this statement. What do you mean? I mean what else stops people from doing such things?
    Honest question.

  • Booklover

    While we’re speaking of morals, here is an interesting little quiz:

    http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/330E6948-78BB-45E4-9D03-7376B3E37808/

    It may not be 100% accurate, but it’s close, and is interesting nonetheless.

  • Booklover

    While we’re speaking of morals, here is an interesting little quiz:

    http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/330E6948-78BB-45E4-9D03-7376B3E37808/

    It may not be 100% accurate, but it’s close, and is interesting nonetheless.

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ carol-Christian Soldier

    When Beck was totally down and out -too bad there were no Christians to take him under their ‘wing’ where were they?..guess only Mormons were available—just surmising…
    as to the elimination of the un-Constitutional 501 C3 –so Christian leaders don’t have be so worried about ‘losing their tax exempt status’ –
    Perhaps then they will speak out –
    kind of like the ‘black regiment’ Founders-
    Muhlenberg comes to mind- as do many others…
    C-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ carol-Christian Soldier

    When Beck was totally down and out -too bad there were no Christians to take him under their ‘wing’ where were they?..guess only Mormons were available—just surmising…
    as to the elimination of the un-Constitutional 501 C3 –so Christian leaders don’t have be so worried about ‘losing their tax exempt status’ –
    Perhaps then they will speak out –
    kind of like the ‘black regiment’ Founders-
    Muhlenberg comes to mind- as do many others…
    C-CS

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@71), in response to J’s request for “the percentage of inmates in local, state and federal prisons by religion,” as well as broken down “per capita by religion”, said “Quick google and voilà, crime stats” … except that the page you linked to, SG, doesn’t have crime stats per religion. Did you read it?

    Nearly every statistic on the page you pointed to (and, notably, every statistic under the “Crime in Utah” section), is merely a statistic for the state of Utah, and is not correlated or adjusted by religious belief. Aren’t you supposed to be better at statistics than this? Only 61% of Utah is nominally Mormon, with only 42% of its citizens actually active in the religion.

    In short, you haven’t backed up your own claim at all.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@71), in response to J’s request for “the percentage of inmates in local, state and federal prisons by religion,” as well as broken down “per capita by religion”, said “Quick google and voilà, crime stats” … except that the page you linked to, SG, doesn’t have crime stats per religion. Did you read it?

    Nearly every statistic on the page you pointed to (and, notably, every statistic under the “Crime in Utah” section), is merely a statistic for the state of Utah, and is not correlated or adjusted by religious belief. Aren’t you supposed to be better at statistics than this? Only 61% of Utah is nominally Mormon, with only 42% of its citizens actually active in the religion.

    In short, you haven’t backed up your own claim at all.

  • Grace

    The citizens of Utah are mostly Mormon, however Idaho doesn’t fall under the same umbrella….. not a state that is predominately Mormon.

    I fail to see the importance upon how many Mormon’s are incarcerated, …. anymore than how many Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, PCA’s, or Lutherans – what is the point?

    People often, when giving their religion give whatever their history is, gives that as their religious affiliation. That in no way depicts or defines what they NOW OR EVER believed,…. just their early teaching, be it ever so meager.

  • Grace

    The citizens of Utah are mostly Mormon, however Idaho doesn’t fall under the same umbrella….. not a state that is predominately Mormon.

    I fail to see the importance upon how many Mormon’s are incarcerated, …. anymore than how many Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, PCA’s, or Lutherans – what is the point?

    People often, when giving their religion give whatever their history is, gives that as their religious affiliation. That in no way depicts or defines what they NOW OR EVER believed,…. just their early teaching, be it ever so meager.

  • Grace

    L. H. Kevil – 63 “Since the event was not a church service, what is there to complain about? Perhaps turning our attention to morality will lead some fence-sitters to the truth.”

    Kevil, ….. there is much to find fault with. I don’t downplay your comments regarding “morality” – however, I doubt the fence sitters will move an inch off their perch.

    Those who -cannot/will not- understand, that without “morality” there is no definition. A man is defined by his relationship to God, his moral standards. Without God, man is nothing, even his moral standard doesn’t mean much, unless of course he commits a heinous crime, and then receives the attention of a most immoral individual.

  • Grace

    L. H. Kevil – 63 “Since the event was not a church service, what is there to complain about? Perhaps turning our attention to morality will lead some fence-sitters to the truth.”

    Kevil, ….. there is much to find fault with. I don’t downplay your comments regarding “morality” – however, I doubt the fence sitters will move an inch off their perch.

    Those who -cannot/will not- understand, that without “morality” there is no definition. A man is defined by his relationship to God, his moral standards. Without God, man is nothing, even his moral standard doesn’t mean much, unless of course he commits a heinous crime, and then receives the attention of a most immoral individual.

  • Grace

    64 @63 “Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things.”

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    Ephesians 5

    Two ? – check out verse 5 – ” hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God”-

  • Grace

    64 @63 “Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things.”

    3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

    7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

    9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
    Ephesians 5

    Two ? – check out verse 5 – ” hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God”-

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Dr Luther @74 and SG @ 75

    Dr Luther accurately quotes both Luther and the confessions and then concludes something that is utterly opposed to the Holy Gospel and sound doctrine:

    “@63 Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things. Hypocrisy and despair.”

    This is most certainly true! Confessions:

    Augsburg Apology Article IV (II) “Of Justification” :
    [19]“Secure hypocrites always judge that they earn [true and God pleasing] merit…, whether [there is visible evidence of it or not]…, because men naturally trust in their own righteousness; but terrified consciences waver and hesitate, and then seek and accumulate other works in order to find rest. Such consciences never think that they acquire [true] merit…, and they rush into
    despair unless they hear, in addition to the doctrine of the Law, the Gospel concerning the gratuitous remission of sins and the righteousness of faith.”
    [21] Thus the adversaries teach nothing but the righteousness of reason, or certainly of the Law, upon which they look just as the Jews upon the veiled face of Moses; and, in secure hypocrites who think that they satisfy the Law, they excite presumption and empty confidence in works [they place men on a sand foundation, their own works] and contempt of the grace of Christ. On the contrary, they drive timid consciences to despair, which laboring with doubt, never can experience what faith is, and how efficacious it is; thus, at last they utterly despair.”

    And so Dr Luther is absolutely correct. However what he concludes from that is utterly false. It is not antinomianism. But it will certainly lead to it. Why? Because the law still hounds us. So what do we do? We turn the Holy Gospel into the Law. LCMS Lutherans do this by telling us that 1) Sanctification requires effort and 2) Fruit of the Spirit differs intrinsically from Works of the Law done by pagans. Both these are contrary to Confessions.

    However: Sg is firmly on the side of the Lutheran confessions here!

    Read on in the Apology…

    “22] Now, we think concerning the righteousness of reason [ie earthly kingdom, visible righteousness] … must necessarily be performed, according to the passage Gal. 3, 24: The Law was our schoolmaster; likewise 1 Tim. 1, 9: The Law is made for the ungodly. For God wishes those who are carnal [gross sinners] to be restrained by civil discipline, and to maintain this, He has given laws, letters, doctrine, magistrates, penalties.

    23] And this righteousness reason, by its own strength, can, to a certain extent, work, although it is often overcome by natural weakness, and by the devil impelling it to 24] manifest crimes.

    Now, …we cheerfully assign this righteousness of reason the praises that are due it (for this corrupt nature has no greater good [in this life and in a worldly nature, nothing is ever better than uprightness and virtue], and Aristotle says aright: Neither the evening star nor the morning star is more beautiful than righteousness, and God also honors it with bodily rewards), [indeed in another article it is confessed that "nothing can be added to the ethical system of aristotle! saying that pagan righteousness is outwardly every bit as good as that of any christian´s...]

    yet it ought not to be praised with reproach to Christ [and the Heavenly Kingdom].”

    So how do we praise Earthly Kingdom righteousness without reproaching christ?

    Read on. We say that we don´t and aren´t :

    25] …merit the
    remission of sins by our works.
    26] …accounted righteous before God because of the righteousness of reason [works and external piety, ie Earthly Kingdom righteousness].
    27]…that reason, by its own strength, is able to love God above all things, and to fulfil God’s Law, namely, truly to fear God, to be truly confident that God hears prayer, to be willing to obey God in death and other dispensations of God, not to covet what belongs to others, etc.; although reason can work civil works [ie Earthly Kingdom Righteousness].
    28] … that men do not sin who, without grace, do the
    commandments of God [who keep the commandments of God merely in an external manner, without the Spirit and grace in their hearts].

    Luther in is sermon on the “Two Kingdoms and Two Kinds of Righteousness” referred to in the FC art VI says this (I paraphrase):

    “Internalization of the article of the forgiveness of sins is alone what makes one a christian, but we will lose this teaching unless we understand that there are two kinds of righteousness, and that they are both pleasing to God and required by him”.

    http://www.thirduse.com

    Dr Luther needs to understand that the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is not alone about the christian´s relation to civil government (although it fully includes that). It is exactly the Law and Gospel distinction and nothing but… HeavenlyKingdom vs Earthly Kingdom righteousness, or rather Two Kinds of Righteousness. Arand too misses this being miscued by LCMS 19th and 20th century folk-Lutheranism.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Dr Luther @74 and SG @ 75

    Dr Luther accurately quotes both Luther and the confessions and then concludes something that is utterly opposed to the Holy Gospel and sound doctrine:

    “@63 Morality outside of the grace of God creates two things. Hypocrisy and despair.”

    This is most certainly true! Confessions:

    Augsburg Apology Article IV (II) “Of Justification” :
    [19]“Secure hypocrites always judge that they earn [true and God pleasing] merit…, whether [there is visible evidence of it or not]…, because men naturally trust in their own righteousness; but terrified consciences waver and hesitate, and then seek and accumulate other works in order to find rest. Such consciences never think that they acquire [true] merit…, and they rush into
    despair unless they hear, in addition to the doctrine of the Law, the Gospel concerning the gratuitous remission of sins and the righteousness of faith.”
    [21] Thus the adversaries teach nothing but the righteousness of reason, or certainly of the Law, upon which they look just as the Jews upon the veiled face of Moses; and, in secure hypocrites who think that they satisfy the Law, they excite presumption and empty confidence in works [they place men on a sand foundation, their own works] and contempt of the grace of Christ. On the contrary, they drive timid consciences to despair, which laboring with doubt, never can experience what faith is, and how efficacious it is; thus, at last they utterly despair.”

    And so Dr Luther is absolutely correct. However what he concludes from that is utterly false. It is not antinomianism. But it will certainly lead to it. Why? Because the law still hounds us. So what do we do? We turn the Holy Gospel into the Law. LCMS Lutherans do this by telling us that 1) Sanctification requires effort and 2) Fruit of the Spirit differs intrinsically from Works of the Law done by pagans. Both these are contrary to Confessions.

    However: Sg is firmly on the side of the Lutheran confessions here!

    Read on in the Apology…

    “22] Now, we think concerning the righteousness of reason [ie earthly kingdom, visible righteousness] … must necessarily be performed, according to the passage Gal. 3, 24: The Law was our schoolmaster; likewise 1 Tim. 1, 9: The Law is made for the ungodly. For God wishes those who are carnal [gross sinners] to be restrained by civil discipline, and to maintain this, He has given laws, letters, doctrine, magistrates, penalties.

    23] And this righteousness reason, by its own strength, can, to a certain extent, work, although it is often overcome by natural weakness, and by the devil impelling it to 24] manifest crimes.

    Now, …we cheerfully assign this righteousness of reason the praises that are due it (for this corrupt nature has no greater good [in this life and in a worldly nature, nothing is ever better than uprightness and virtue], and Aristotle says aright: Neither the evening star nor the morning star is more beautiful than righteousness, and God also honors it with bodily rewards), [indeed in another article it is confessed that "nothing can be added to the ethical system of aristotle! saying that pagan righteousness is outwardly every bit as good as that of any christian´s...]

    yet it ought not to be praised with reproach to Christ [and the Heavenly Kingdom].”

    So how do we praise Earthly Kingdom righteousness without reproaching christ?

    Read on. We say that we don´t and aren´t :

    25] …merit the
    remission of sins by our works.
    26] …accounted righteous before God because of the righteousness of reason [works and external piety, ie Earthly Kingdom righteousness].
    27]…that reason, by its own strength, is able to love God above all things, and to fulfil God’s Law, namely, truly to fear God, to be truly confident that God hears prayer, to be willing to obey God in death and other dispensations of God, not to covet what belongs to others, etc.; although reason can work civil works [ie Earthly Kingdom Righteousness].
    28] … that men do not sin who, without grace, do the
    commandments of God [who keep the commandments of God merely in an external manner, without the Spirit and grace in their hearts].

    Luther in is sermon on the “Two Kingdoms and Two Kinds of Righteousness” referred to in the FC art VI says this (I paraphrase):

    “Internalization of the article of the forgiveness of sins is alone what makes one a christian, but we will lose this teaching unless we understand that there are two kinds of righteousness, and that they are both pleasing to God and required by him”.

    http://www.thirduse.com

    Dr Luther needs to understand that the Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms is not alone about the christian´s relation to civil government (although it fully includes that). It is exactly the Law and Gospel distinction and nothing but… HeavenlyKingdom vs Earthly Kingdom righteousness, or rather Two Kinds of Righteousness. Arand too misses this being miscued by LCMS 19th and 20th century folk-Lutheranism.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 81

    “5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Two ? – check out verse 5 – ” hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God”-”

    I say amen! to this Grace!

    So what do you make of Romans 2:1? And I John where John says that “a christian cannot sin!” and then follows this with the seeming contradiction “He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him”?

    Penny for your thoughts dear Grace!

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 81

    “5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Two ? – check out verse 5 – ” hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God”-”

    I say amen! to this Grace!

    So what do you make of Romans 2:1? And I John where John says that “a christian cannot sin!” and then follows this with the seeming contradiction “He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him”?

    Penny for your thoughts dear Grace!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @tODD

    “Only 61% of Utah is nominally Mormon, with only 42% of its citizens actually active in the religion.”

    As I said, the info was from when there was a higher Mormon percentage than today. Nowadays, there are more non- Mormons and no surprise, higher crime, which also supports my assertion that they have a low crime rate.

    The overall rates in Utah were low. Are you suggesting there is more crime committed by Mormons than by non- Mormons such that the criminals are more likely to be Mormons? I was giving both groups the benefit of the doubt and calling them equal. Your implied assertion that the data are entirely useless unless Mormons are specifically identified, is false. Even if zero crimes were committed by non-Mormons, and we assumed every crime in Utah was committed by a Mormon, the rate would still be low. Therefore, they must have a low crime rate.

    This wiki article on statistical inference might be helpful.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @tODD

    “Only 61% of Utah is nominally Mormon, with only 42% of its citizens actually active in the religion.”

    As I said, the info was from when there was a higher Mormon percentage than today. Nowadays, there are more non- Mormons and no surprise, higher crime, which also supports my assertion that they have a low crime rate.

    The overall rates in Utah were low. Are you suggesting there is more crime committed by Mormons than by non- Mormons such that the criminals are more likely to be Mormons? I was giving both groups the benefit of the doubt and calling them equal. Your implied assertion that the data are entirely useless unless Mormons are specifically identified, is false. Even if zero crimes were committed by non-Mormons, and we assumed every crime in Utah was committed by a Mormon, the rate would still be low. Therefore, they must have a low crime rate.

    This wiki article on statistical inference might be helpful.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference

  • LAJ

    @77 I read Beck’s account of why he chose mormonism. It wasn’t because Christian’s weren’t there for him; it was because he wanted a religion that said that Ghandi is in heaven.

  • LAJ

    @77 I read Beck’s account of why he chose mormonism. It wasn’t because Christian’s weren’t there for him; it was because he wanted a religion that said that Ghandi is in heaven.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @tODD

    The incarceration rate in Utah is 232. The US average is 504.
    http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?ind=760&cat=1&rgn=46

    Using your info, “Only 61% of Utah is nominally Mormon, with only 42% of its citizens actually active in the religion.”

    95% of all crime in Utah would have to be committed by the 42% who are active members of the LDS in order for their members to hit the national average.

    I don’t believe it is reasonable to assume that the other 58% commit only 5% of the crimes.

    Now, have I backed up my claim at all?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @tODD

    The incarceration rate in Utah is 232. The US average is 504.
    http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?ind=760&cat=1&rgn=46

    Using your info, “Only 61% of Utah is nominally Mormon, with only 42% of its citizens actually active in the religion.”

    95% of all crime in Utah would have to be committed by the 42% who are active members of the LDS in order for their members to hit the national average.

    I don’t believe it is reasonable to assume that the other 58% commit only 5% of the crimes.

    Now, have I backed up my claim at all?

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace @79,
    I’m going to tie it together for you now. I fail to see why it matters how many mexicans or hispanics are incarcerated either.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace @79,
    I’m going to tie it together for you now. I fail to see why it matters how many mexicans or hispanics are incarcerated either.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I fail to see why it matters how many mexicans or hispanics are incarcerated either.”

    Really? We have to pay for those prisons, wardens, and their pensions, you know.

    It is just that is so bizarre when someone acts like you are making wild accusations when you simply state something that is common knowledge, like Mormons have a low crime rate.

    “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act,” George Orwell

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I fail to see why it matters how many mexicans or hispanics are incarcerated either.”

    Really? We have to pay for those prisons, wardens, and their pensions, you know.

    It is just that is so bizarre when someone acts like you are making wild accusations when you simply state something that is common knowledge, like Mormons have a low crime rate.

    “During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act,” George Orwell

  • Cincinnatus

    Bror@87: I’m going to second sg here. The demographic compositions of our penitentiaries is a tremendously important social fact that should impel particular courses of action. For example, it is significant that, in my city, crime is far, far below the national average. While blacks constitute only 8% of the population (white bread city!), a numerical majority of these blacks–i.e., over 50%!–are involved with the incarceration system in some capacity (whether it be imprisonment, house arrest, probation, etc.). This is a stunning statistic, possibly implying that while city-wide crime is extraordinarily low, crime within the black community of my city is staggeringly high! This means something, and it points to systemic weaknesses in the social structures of my local black community that need to be addressed. Not only do I pay for their abnormally high usage of the criminal justice system with my tax dollars, as a human being and a citizen, I have a vested interest in ensuring that a significant population in my community is not disintegrating in front of my eyes and, in general, rendering the city less safe than it could or should be.

    Conversely, it is relevant if we discover that certain religious, economic, or social backgrounds are associated with lower crime rates. Wouldn’t that mean we should encourage those respective religious, economic, or social conditions in our communities if we want them to be safe, flourishing places to live?

    In other words, you should care if your entire prison is populated by individuals from groups x, y, and z, while people from groups a, b, and c are seldom seen behind bars.

  • Cincinnatus

    Bror@87: I’m going to second sg here. The demographic compositions of our penitentiaries is a tremendously important social fact that should impel particular courses of action. For example, it is significant that, in my city, crime is far, far below the national average. While blacks constitute only 8% of the population (white bread city!), a numerical majority of these blacks–i.e., over 50%!–are involved with the incarceration system in some capacity (whether it be imprisonment, house arrest, probation, etc.). This is a stunning statistic, possibly implying that while city-wide crime is extraordinarily low, crime within the black community of my city is staggeringly high! This means something, and it points to systemic weaknesses in the social structures of my local black community that need to be addressed. Not only do I pay for their abnormally high usage of the criminal justice system with my tax dollars, as a human being and a citizen, I have a vested interest in ensuring that a significant population in my community is not disintegrating in front of my eyes and, in general, rendering the city less safe than it could or should be.

    Conversely, it is relevant if we discover that certain religious, economic, or social backgrounds are associated with lower crime rates. Wouldn’t that mean we should encourage those respective religious, economic, or social conditions in our communities if we want them to be safe, flourishing places to live?

    In other words, you should care if your entire prison is populated by individuals from groups x, y, and z, while people from groups a, b, and c are seldom seen behind bars.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg @ 84
    “As I said, the info was from when there was a higher Mormon percentage than today. Nowadays, there are more non- Mormons and no surprise, higher crime, which also supports my assertion that they have a low crime rate.”

    let me just say living in Utah gives you a little different perspective on all that. I’ve had Mormon’s tell me that Utah is the hardest place in the world to be Mormon. But the networks of good ole boy clubs that turn blind eyes to all sorts of crime, and a head in the sand mentality to what the “good” mormons are doing, seriously calls into question any co-relation to incarceration and crime rates.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg @ 84
    “As I said, the info was from when there was a higher Mormon percentage than today. Nowadays, there are more non- Mormons and no surprise, higher crime, which also supports my assertion that they have a low crime rate.”

    let me just say living in Utah gives you a little different perspective on all that. I’ve had Mormon’s tell me that Utah is the hardest place in the world to be Mormon. But the networks of good ole boy clubs that turn blind eyes to all sorts of crime, and a head in the sand mentality to what the “good” mormons are doing, seriously calls into question any co-relation to incarceration and crime rates.

  • Cincinnatus

    I should add that, in my city, those blacks–again 8% of the population–commit (or at least are convicted) of the same number of crimes as the whites, who constitute 89% of the population. The same number! This is a relevant fact.

    What are we going to do about it? I don’t know: maybe send Mormon missionaries into the black neighborhoods (I kid…sort of). In any case, criminal justice statistics can tell us very much about what certain portions of our society are desperately missing and desperately need.

  • Cincinnatus

    I should add that, in my city, those blacks–again 8% of the population–commit (or at least are convicted) of the same number of crimes as the whites, who constitute 89% of the population. The same number! This is a relevant fact.

    What are we going to do about it? I don’t know: maybe send Mormon missionaries into the black neighborhoods (I kid…sort of). In any case, criminal justice statistics can tell us very much about what certain portions of our society are desperately missing and desperately need.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinatus,
    Statistics can be useful. But as the saying goes there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
    The incarceration rates for Mormons was sky high by the way in the early settling of Utah. They had to build a whole separate prison just for Mormons in SugarHouse. Of course at the time their religion required them to break the law, and since then the LDS has come out to say that practicing polygamy is no longer mandatory.
    What I am getting at is the statistics don’t tell the whole story as Grace and sg were maintaining on a different thread. And they don’t tell the whole story here either. In fact, sometimes the data does lie.
    And I doubt that you Cincinnatus have been so poisoned by those statistics to think ever African American you meet is from a low functioning race that can’t possibly contribute to society.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinatus,
    Statistics can be useful. But as the saying goes there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
    The incarceration rates for Mormons was sky high by the way in the early settling of Utah. They had to build a whole separate prison just for Mormons in SugarHouse. Of course at the time their religion required them to break the law, and since then the LDS has come out to say that practicing polygamy is no longer mandatory.
    What I am getting at is the statistics don’t tell the whole story as Grace and sg were maintaining on a different thread. And they don’t tell the whole story here either. In fact, sometimes the data does lie.
    And I doubt that you Cincinnatus have been so poisoned by those statistics to think ever African American you meet is from a low functioning race that can’t possibly contribute to society.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Bror, maybe you are confusing low crime with no crime. Obviously there is crime in every place among all people. We would all love no crime. That isn’t possible. So, most prefer low crime to high crime.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Bror, maybe you are confusing low crime with no crime. Obviously there is crime in every place among all people. We would all love no crime. That isn’t possible. So, most prefer low crime to high crime.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What I am getting at is the statistics don’t tell the whole story as Grace and sg were maintaining on a different thread. And they don’t tell the whole story here either. In fact, sometimes the data does lie.”

    I don’t maintain statistics tell the whole story. I maintain that they are not irrelevant, that we should just dismiss clear information and throw caution to the wind. I think the stats provide info that should be at least considered. I think it is irresponsible to ignore clear information, rather we should use it to inform our decisions. And yes, if the state criminalizes religious practices, the jails will fill rapidly.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What I am getting at is the statistics don’t tell the whole story as Grace and sg were maintaining on a different thread. And they don’t tell the whole story here either. In fact, sometimes the data does lie.”

    I don’t maintain statistics tell the whole story. I maintain that they are not irrelevant, that we should just dismiss clear information and throw caution to the wind. I think the stats provide info that should be at least considered. I think it is irresponsible to ignore clear information, rather we should use it to inform our decisions. And yes, if the state criminalizes religious practices, the jails will fill rapidly.

  • Louis

    Also, what sg and Grace are doing is to look at just one thing, and that is the ethnicity of the people concerned. What they fail to understand is that the causes of crime are multiple, and includes, but is not confined to, discrimination, poverty, feelings of inadequacy, education, frustration, wealth disparities, culture, history etc etc.

    At the root is of course man’s sinfulness, but under specific circumstances, certain aspects of our sinfullness seem to flourish more than under others.

    Ever wonder why many welcome the Taliban and other fundamentalsit groups in countries like Afghanistan, Somalia and others? Because they offer justice and law and a semblance of public order. This does not make them desireable overall, does it? The point that I, and that of kerner, Todd and others made in earlier threads was that whne other population groups, like the Irish for instance, moved into specifically the US, they were viewed through the same eyes as sg And Grace view the Hispanics today. And quite possibly there was higher incidences of crime in those ethnic groups, but for the reasons (and others) outlined above.

    It is my contention that action based on ethnicity alone is not only morally wrong (and sinful), but also counter productive in the practical sense. As kerner and others pointed out earlier – there are historic reasons for the large influx of illegals from south of the US border – many of them has to do with totaly stupid lawmaking and idiotic policies. One has to look at any perceived problem holistically. Simplistic arguments based on ethnicity alone is well, simplisitc. I have seen many, many of these arguments, coming from an extreme multiracial socoety, with many disparities, as I do. And most of them, at heart, is based on unspoken racial beliefs, beliefs that are wrong and sinful.

    And then another thing. Suppose the arguments based on race and ethnicity prevail, and somehow (I don’t believe it, but lets just continue with the thought experiment) crime falls, and paradise arrives (I’m being a little sarcastic here). hen I would still oppose it, because an order built on an injustice is still wrong. It is similar to the Nazi’s eliminating people with disabilities, especially if those are of the inherited, genetic variety. ure, much less money will be spent catering for those “unproductive people”. The cost on society will go down. But it is still wrong. Discrimination based on race is wrong for exactly the same reason, and I for one will not abide with it.

  • Louis

    Also, what sg and Grace are doing is to look at just one thing, and that is the ethnicity of the people concerned. What they fail to understand is that the causes of crime are multiple, and includes, but is not confined to, discrimination, poverty, feelings of inadequacy, education, frustration, wealth disparities, culture, history etc etc.

    At the root is of course man’s sinfulness, but under specific circumstances, certain aspects of our sinfullness seem to flourish more than under others.

    Ever wonder why many welcome the Taliban and other fundamentalsit groups in countries like Afghanistan, Somalia and others? Because they offer justice and law and a semblance of public order. This does not make them desireable overall, does it? The point that I, and that of kerner, Todd and others made in earlier threads was that whne other population groups, like the Irish for instance, moved into specifically the US, they were viewed through the same eyes as sg And Grace view the Hispanics today. And quite possibly there was higher incidences of crime in those ethnic groups, but for the reasons (and others) outlined above.

    It is my contention that action based on ethnicity alone is not only morally wrong (and sinful), but also counter productive in the practical sense. As kerner and others pointed out earlier – there are historic reasons for the large influx of illegals from south of the US border – many of them has to do with totaly stupid lawmaking and idiotic policies. One has to look at any perceived problem holistically. Simplistic arguments based on ethnicity alone is well, simplisitc. I have seen many, many of these arguments, coming from an extreme multiracial socoety, with many disparities, as I do. And most of them, at heart, is based on unspoken racial beliefs, beliefs that are wrong and sinful.

    And then another thing. Suppose the arguments based on race and ethnicity prevail, and somehow (I don’t believe it, but lets just continue with the thought experiment) crime falls, and paradise arrives (I’m being a little sarcastic here). hen I would still oppose it, because an order built on an injustice is still wrong. It is similar to the Nazi’s eliminating people with disabilities, especially if those are of the inherited, genetic variety. ure, much less money will be spent catering for those “unproductive people”. The cost on society will go down. But it is still wrong. Discrimination based on race is wrong for exactly the same reason, and I for one will not abide with it.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Louis,
    Well said.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Louis,
    Well said.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg,
    I’m not confusing anything for anything here. I’m not looking for shangrila. But tell you the truth, I could deal with a little more crime, and a lot less oppression, hypocrisy, and bigotry.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg,
    I’m not confusing anything for anything here. I’m not looking for shangrila. But tell you the truth, I could deal with a little more crime, and a lot less oppression, hypocrisy, and bigotry.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What they fail to understand is that the causes of crime are multiple, and includes, but is not confined to, discrimination, poverty, feelings of inadequacy, education, frustration, wealth disparities, culture, history etc etc.”

    Cause of crime is simple, sin.

    Do we have discrimination? Yes, it is called disparate impact/Affirmative Action. It discriminates against good job candidates and qualified college applicants and other law abiding folks.

    Do we have poverty? Well if you define it very cleverly. I mean every child gets free education and food if their parents can’t afford it. The Amish are poor by any objective assessment, but they have low crime.

    feelings of inadequacy? Actually, confidence and competence vary inversely. So, no. Criminals are less likely to have low self esteem.

    Education? see poverty. Amish have 8th grade education and low crime.

    frustration? Okay, if you count suicide as a crime. Yes, I am being sarcastic, but please, this is so vague and ubiquitous, it is hard to take seriously. Raise your hand if you are never frustrated.

    wealth disparities? Check that arrow of causality. Honest, hard working people improve their lot pretty quickly here. Criminals don’t.

    culture? This is the only possible one in the list, but I am still skeptical. If a culture locks up all of its criminals for a very long time, then, okay, yeah.

    history? Like what?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What they fail to understand is that the causes of crime are multiple, and includes, but is not confined to, discrimination, poverty, feelings of inadequacy, education, frustration, wealth disparities, culture, history etc etc.”

    Cause of crime is simple, sin.

    Do we have discrimination? Yes, it is called disparate impact/Affirmative Action. It discriminates against good job candidates and qualified college applicants and other law abiding folks.

    Do we have poverty? Well if you define it very cleverly. I mean every child gets free education and food if their parents can’t afford it. The Amish are poor by any objective assessment, but they have low crime.

    feelings of inadequacy? Actually, confidence and competence vary inversely. So, no. Criminals are less likely to have low self esteem.

    Education? see poverty. Amish have 8th grade education and low crime.

    frustration? Okay, if you count suicide as a crime. Yes, I am being sarcastic, but please, this is so vague and ubiquitous, it is hard to take seriously. Raise your hand if you are never frustrated.

    wealth disparities? Check that arrow of causality. Honest, hard working people improve their lot pretty quickly here. Criminals don’t.

    culture? This is the only possible one in the list, but I am still skeptical. If a culture locks up all of its criminals for a very long time, then, okay, yeah.

    history? Like what?

  • Ron

    American conservatives have been given a perfect opportunity to take over the government in the next 2 elections. I pray they don’t screw it up by turning it into a religious movement (revival).

  • Ron

    American conservatives have been given a perfect opportunity to take over the government in the next 2 elections. I pray they don’t screw it up by turning it into a religious movement (revival).

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis,

    “Discrimination based on race is wrong for exactly the same reason, and I for one will not abide with it.”

    Sure you will. You will probably actively support it, so long as it discriminates against those you don’t like and in favor of certain other groups you favor.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis,

    “Discrimination based on race is wrong for exactly the same reason, and I for one will not abide with it.”

    Sure you will. You will probably actively support it, so long as it discriminates against those you don’t like and in favor of certain other groups you favor.

  • Cincinnatus

    Bror@90: Yes, obviously my implication was that the statistics prove African-Americans to be an inferior race *rolls eyes* No. The law of charity mandates that you put the best construction on my argument, which, incidentally, was that something about the social structure in certain minority communities conduces toward crime–and that is a problem we should all care about. Meanwhile, certain communities–like the Mormon community, apparently (according to the stats)–instantiate conditions (like strong families, etc., we might hypothesize) that discourage crime and social disturbances.

    I’m not certain what your point it. Are you just that devoted to the idea that Mormons are criminal geniuses, overflowing our prisons, and bent on destroying American society? The statistics demonstrate that heavily Mormon populations commit fewer crimes. It is up to you to demonstrate that this is not so or to provide an alternative plausible interpretation of the numbers. Claiming that a “good ole’ boy” network that protects Mormons exclusively operates in Utah isn’t very helpful because a) that’s unsubstantiated and b) such networks exist everywhere for every group; try running as a white mayor for Washington, D.C., for instance or as a non-Latino for mayor of Los Angeles. Resorting to vague historical claims is also unhelpful (they had to build special prisons for Mormons! Oh my! But that tells me literally nothing about the actual crime rate). But hey, don’t let facts (or data, at least) stand in the way of your ideological commitments.

  • Cincinnatus

    Bror@90: Yes, obviously my implication was that the statistics prove African-Americans to be an inferior race *rolls eyes* No. The law of charity mandates that you put the best construction on my argument, which, incidentally, was that something about the social structure in certain minority communities conduces toward crime–and that is a problem we should all care about. Meanwhile, certain communities–like the Mormon community, apparently (according to the stats)–instantiate conditions (like strong families, etc., we might hypothesize) that discourage crime and social disturbances.

    I’m not certain what your point it. Are you just that devoted to the idea that Mormons are criminal geniuses, overflowing our prisons, and bent on destroying American society? The statistics demonstrate that heavily Mormon populations commit fewer crimes. It is up to you to demonstrate that this is not so or to provide an alternative plausible interpretation of the numbers. Claiming that a “good ole’ boy” network that protects Mormons exclusively operates in Utah isn’t very helpful because a) that’s unsubstantiated and b) such networks exist everywhere for every group; try running as a white mayor for Washington, D.C., for instance or as a non-Latino for mayor of Los Angeles. Resorting to vague historical claims is also unhelpful (they had to build special prisons for Mormons! Oh my! But that tells me literally nothing about the actual crime rate). But hey, don’t let facts (or data, at least) stand in the way of your ideological commitments.

  • Louis

    sg – that last post of yours is slander.

    Let me put it to you this way. I have been both the victim, as well as the beneficiary of discrimination based on race. Neither was due to any action on my part. It is always wrong.

  • Louis

    sg – that last post of yours is slander.

    Let me put it to you this way. I have been both the victim, as well as the beneficiary of discrimination based on race. Neither was due to any action on my part. It is always wrong.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg @ 98,
    In what world do you live in? By what “objective standards” do you determine the Amish are poor? Poor people don’t buy up land all over the Mid West. Poor people don’t own acres and acres and horses to plow them.
    But what you do have there on an extreme scale is a religion that promotes hypocrisy, and a culture that is ungrateful for the freedoms it is provided in the United States, and looks down upon those willing to take up arms to defend them, like most Hispanics I have known.
    And just talk to a few that have left that awful cult and you will see that there is quite a bit of unreported crime in that society also.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    sg @ 98,
    In what world do you live in? By what “objective standards” do you determine the Amish are poor? Poor people don’t buy up land all over the Mid West. Poor people don’t own acres and acres and horses to plow them.
    But what you do have there on an extreme scale is a religion that promotes hypocrisy, and a culture that is ungrateful for the freedoms it is provided in the United States, and looks down upon those willing to take up arms to defend them, like most Hispanics I have known.
    And just talk to a few that have left that awful cult and you will see that there is quite a bit of unreported crime in that society also.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    cincinnatus,
    I know you, we have been on this blog together for a long time. I was not trying to slander you. I meant exactly what I said. I was comparing your use of statistics to a more sinister use of statistics that has been used here on this blog in the recent past.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    cincinnatus,
    I know you, we have been on this blog together for a long time. I was not trying to slander you. I meant exactly what I said. I was comparing your use of statistics to a more sinister use of statistics that has been used here on this blog in the recent past.

  • Rev. Schroeder

    This past Sunday there were actually two marches/rallies: one led by Mr. Glenn Beck and the other by the Rev. Al Sharpton to protest Mr. Beck’s rally to bring the nation back to God. Both men have now positioned themselves as religious figures and obviously the one conservative and the other liberal.

    Years ago, a dear friend and colleague, now of blessed memory, said to me in a political and religious discussion: “The political liberals and conservatives are simply trying to see who will be America’s chaplain…I think the conservatives may win, but it doesn’t matter.” In the wake of the utter demise of American mainline Protestantism as our de facto civil religion, by both post-modernism and it’s own hand, (cf. article, “The Death of Protestant America: A Political Theory of the Protestant Mainline” by Joseph Bottum, originally in First Things, posted here: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8381), Mr. Bottum makes the convincing case that we should not be too exuberant on the demise of the old civic religion. I think it has left in it’s wake a vacuum in the now naked public square and literally marching into the void are self-appointed leaders, left and right, to show us the way, their way. On Monday, after the rallies, Rev. Sharpton was interviewed on the Today Show and towards the end he said, “We are going to transform America to make it one.” I think the demagoguery in that statement is frightening. But I so is Mr. Beck saying, “We are going to take back America” or “restore honor to America”. The old civic religion knew from the Bible the doctrine of original sin: the Latter Day Saints know nothing of it, and I would also guess Rev. Sharpton. They know nothing of that doctrine and are ostensibly building the Kingdom or actually, their own, thinking, hey, we’re good…and that’s the worse statement a group of sinners can make. We’ll make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered said the people on the plains of Shinar.

    So, I partially disagree with my dear friend’s comment, “…but it doesn’t matter”. It matters to the point that both movements raise the specter of political tyranny. In the Lutheran understanding of the two kingdoms, to pursue and use the penultimate authority and power of the left hand kingdom to bring about the right hand Kingdom invites both confusion and the prospect of fascism, left or right. I know I am probably overstating my case but as the saying goes, “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”.

    Russell Moore’s call to return to the Lord’s call to His Church as the place and time of repentance and forgiveness in Jesus Christ is meet, right and so to do. No, being “salt” and “light” are not immediately persuasive political action, but, as silent as light, they preserve and save. G.K. Chesterton had it right: ““If salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?”…If the world grows too worldly, it can be rebuked by the Church; but if the Church grows too worldly, it cannot be adequately rebuked for worldliness by the world.”

  • Rev. Schroeder

    This past Sunday there were actually two marches/rallies: one led by Mr. Glenn Beck and the other by the Rev. Al Sharpton to protest Mr. Beck’s rally to bring the nation back to God. Both men have now positioned themselves as religious figures and obviously the one conservative and the other liberal.

    Years ago, a dear friend and colleague, now of blessed memory, said to me in a political and religious discussion: “The political liberals and conservatives are simply trying to see who will be America’s chaplain…I think the conservatives may win, but it doesn’t matter.” In the wake of the utter demise of American mainline Protestantism as our de facto civil religion, by both post-modernism and it’s own hand, (cf. article, “The Death of Protestant America: A Political Theory of the Protestant Mainline” by Joseph Bottum, originally in First Things, posted here: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8381), Mr. Bottum makes the convincing case that we should not be too exuberant on the demise of the old civic religion. I think it has left in it’s wake a vacuum in the now naked public square and literally marching into the void are self-appointed leaders, left and right, to show us the way, their way. On Monday, after the rallies, Rev. Sharpton was interviewed on the Today Show and towards the end he said, “We are going to transform America to make it one.” I think the demagoguery in that statement is frightening. But I so is Mr. Beck saying, “We are going to take back America” or “restore honor to America”. The old civic religion knew from the Bible the doctrine of original sin: the Latter Day Saints know nothing of it, and I would also guess Rev. Sharpton. They know nothing of that doctrine and are ostensibly building the Kingdom or actually, their own, thinking, hey, we’re good…and that’s the worse statement a group of sinners can make. We’ll make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered said the people on the plains of Shinar.

    So, I partially disagree with my dear friend’s comment, “…but it doesn’t matter”. It matters to the point that both movements raise the specter of political tyranny. In the Lutheran understanding of the two kingdoms, to pursue and use the penultimate authority and power of the left hand kingdom to bring about the right hand Kingdom invites both confusion and the prospect of fascism, left or right. I know I am probably overstating my case but as the saying goes, “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”.

    Russell Moore’s call to return to the Lord’s call to His Church as the place and time of repentance and forgiveness in Jesus Christ is meet, right and so to do. No, being “salt” and “light” are not immediately persuasive political action, but, as silent as light, they preserve and save. G.K. Chesterton had it right: ““If salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?”…If the world grows too worldly, it can be rebuked by the Church; but if the Church grows too worldly, it cannot be adequately rebuked for worldliness by the world.”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg – that last post of yours is slander.”

    I hope that is true. So, do you think we should end racial discrimination in the US? I am referring to the official versions of disparate impact and Affirmative Action.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg – that last post of yours is slander.”

    I hope that is true. So, do you think we should end racial discrimination in the US? I am referring to the official versions of disparate impact and Affirmative Action.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinnatus,
    I am not maintaining that Mormons are criminal geniuses. Just sinners like every one else.
    As for strong family units? well move to Utah and see what that entails…

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinnatus,
    I am not maintaining that Mormons are criminal geniuses. Just sinners like every one else.
    As for strong family units? well move to Utah and see what that entails…

  • Louis

    sg: I’m not interested in any further dialog with you on this matter here.

  • Louis

    sg: I’m not interested in any further dialog with you on this matter here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “By what “objective standards” do you determine the Amish are poor?

    Standard of living.

    “Poor people don’t buy up land all over the Mid West.”

    My forbears did. They got mortgages.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “By what “objective standards” do you determine the Amish are poor?

    Standard of living.

    “Poor people don’t buy up land all over the Mid West.”

    My forbears did. They got mortgages.

  • Louis

    I find it quite hilarious that those who claim, directly or indirectly, in some sort of racial superiority, are most likely to be the ones disproving their case by their own words……

  • Louis

    I find it quite hilarious that those who claim, directly or indirectly, in some sort of racial superiority, are most likely to be the ones disproving their case by their own words……

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg: I’m not interested in any further dialog with you on this matter here.”

    Shall I assume Louis does indeed support racial discrimination and that I did not in fact slander him?

    The subject is taboo. Discussion based on facts is eschewed. Unsubstantiated claims are used in lieu of facts. All policies must favor those groups with the worst performance at the expense of those with the best performance. No discussion of changing the policies based on experience will be tolerated. This is not a healthy.
    How can we say we live in a liberal society with the free flow of ideas, when some ideas cannot be discussed?

    I admit most are quickly cowed by charges of bigotry, which is probably why myths such a Louis listed are so insidious. The discussion is shut down by PC police before anyone sees the evidence.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg: I’m not interested in any further dialog with you on this matter here.”

    Shall I assume Louis does indeed support racial discrimination and that I did not in fact slander him?

    The subject is taboo. Discussion based on facts is eschewed. Unsubstantiated claims are used in lieu of facts. All policies must favor those groups with the worst performance at the expense of those with the best performance. No discussion of changing the policies based on experience will be tolerated. This is not a healthy.
    How can we say we live in a liberal society with the free flow of ideas, when some ideas cannot be discussed?

    I admit most are quickly cowed by charges of bigotry, which is probably why myths such a Louis listed are so insidious. The discussion is shut down by PC police before anyone sees the evidence.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I find it quite hilarious that those who claim, directly or indirectly, in some sort of racial superiority, are most likely to be the ones disproving their case by their own words……”

    Slander!!!!

    LOL

    Not interested in discussion, only hurling insults.

    Ah, post modern times.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I find it quite hilarious that those who claim, directly or indirectly, in some sort of racial superiority, are most likely to be the ones disproving their case by their own words……”

    Slander!!!!

    LOL

    Not interested in discussion, only hurling insults.

    Ah, post modern times.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As for strong family units? well move to Utah and see what that entails…”

    Lowest illegitimacy rate in the country.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As for strong family units? well move to Utah and see what that entails…”

    Lowest illegitimacy rate in the country.

  • Grace

    Jt – 83 – “So what do you make of Romans 2:1? And I John where John says that “a christian cannot sin!” and then follows this with the seeming contradiction “He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him”?”

    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1 John 3:9

    Renouncing sin is the great proof of spiritual union with, continuance in, and saving knowledge of the Lord Christ. Beware of self-deceit. He that doeth righteousness is righteous, and to be a follower of Christ, shows an interest by faith in his obedience and sufferings. But a man cannot act like the devil, and at the same time be a disciple of Christ Jesus. Let us not serve or indulge what the Son of God came to destroy. To be born of God is to be inwardly renewed by the power of the Spirit of God. Renewing grace is an abiding principle. Religion is not an art, a matter of dexterity and skill, but a new nature. And the regenerate person cannot sin as he did before he was born of God, and as others do who are not born again. Mathew Henry

    “If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true [p. 282] and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. . . . as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. . . . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.” – Martin Luther
    Epistle of August 1, 1521 to Melanchthon (This translation is taken from the official Lutheran American Edition of his complete works, vol. 42, pp. 281-82:

    The statement above by Martin Luther is contrary to God’s Word. A man who is Born Again has a “new nature” -

    Jt – the passage below is too often forgotten or excluded from mans thoughts, but it is one of the great promises. God is faithful, He gives us strength in time of temptation.

    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
    1 Corinthians 10:13

  • Grace

    Jt – 83 – “So what do you make of Romans 2:1? And I John where John says that “a christian cannot sin!” and then follows this with the seeming contradiction “He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him”?”

    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1 John 3:9

    Renouncing sin is the great proof of spiritual union with, continuance in, and saving knowledge of the Lord Christ. Beware of self-deceit. He that doeth righteousness is righteous, and to be a follower of Christ, shows an interest by faith in his obedience and sufferings. But a man cannot act like the devil, and at the same time be a disciple of Christ Jesus. Let us not serve or indulge what the Son of God came to destroy. To be born of God is to be inwardly renewed by the power of the Spirit of God. Renewing grace is an abiding principle. Religion is not an art, a matter of dexterity and skill, but a new nature. And the regenerate person cannot sin as he did before he was born of God, and as others do who are not born again. Mathew Henry

    “If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true [p. 282] and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. . . . as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. . . . No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.” – Martin Luther
    Epistle of August 1, 1521 to Melanchthon (This translation is taken from the official Lutheran American Edition of his complete works, vol. 42, pp. 281-82:

    The statement above by Martin Luther is contrary to God’s Word. A man who is Born Again has a “new nature” -

    Jt – the passage below is too often forgotten or excluded from mans thoughts, but it is one of the great promises. God is faithful, He gives us strength in time of temptation.

    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
    1 Corinthians 10:13

  • Grace

    Post 114 should have been posted to, FWS, not Jt.

  • Grace

    Post 114 should have been posted to, FWS, not Jt.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    The problem for you Grace is the Gospel is contrary to the word of God, and the law is Contrary to the the word of God, in that both the gospel and the law are the word of God and yet contrary to the other. That is the law is contrary to the gospel, and the gospel contrary to the the law, be they yet both the word of God.
    You would have us harmonize the two. You would have us believe your superiority complex towards hispanics is less a sin and within the bounds of God’s law under the Gospel. But fornication can’t be forgiven. You expect me to believe God grades sins and deems some forgivable, and tolerable for the new man to commit, and others are not. And this finally in the end is contrary to the word of God. Sin is sin and for it we deserve hell. The gospel is the the gospel it not only contradicts law, but trumps it, and it does it a thousand times a thousand a day for all who believe that Jesus Christ died for sinners that they might live.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    The problem for you Grace is the Gospel is contrary to the word of God, and the law is Contrary to the the word of God, in that both the gospel and the law are the word of God and yet contrary to the other. That is the law is contrary to the gospel, and the gospel contrary to the the law, be they yet both the word of God.
    You would have us harmonize the two. You would have us believe your superiority complex towards hispanics is less a sin and within the bounds of God’s law under the Gospel. But fornication can’t be forgiven. You expect me to believe God grades sins and deems some forgivable, and tolerable for the new man to commit, and others are not. And this finally in the end is contrary to the word of God. Sin is sin and for it we deserve hell. The gospel is the the gospel it not only contradicts law, but trumps it, and it does it a thousand times a thousand a day for all who believe that Jesus Christ died for sinners that they might live.

  • Louis

    Bror – that’s what I love about Lutheran theology: It’s so damned honest!

  • Louis

    Bror – that’s what I love about Lutheran theology: It’s so damned honest!

  • Grace

    Bror – 116 “You would have us harmonize the two. You would have us believe your superiority complex towards hispanics is less a sin and within the bounds of God’s law under the Gospel. But fornication can’t be forgiven. ”

    Using this as an argument is bogus. Making assumptions as you have, regarding my so called “superiority” is nothing more than juvenile. Children mix and match their debating skills to try and sway their parents, just in the same way you have made the one above.

    The rest of your confusion, reeks of antinomianism.

  • Grace

    Bror – 116 “You would have us harmonize the two. You would have us believe your superiority complex towards hispanics is less a sin and within the bounds of God’s law under the Gospel. But fornication can’t be forgiven. ”

    Using this as an argument is bogus. Making assumptions as you have, regarding my so called “superiority” is nothing more than juvenile. Children mix and match their debating skills to try and sway their parents, just in the same way you have made the one above.

    The rest of your confusion, reeks of antinomianism.

  • Louis

    Grace – you are not serious, right? But calling everybody antinomian who don’t believe in salvation by works is an old trick. Maybe let me give you article 6 of the Formula of Concord, and then you can perhaps reevaluate Bror’s words:

    STATUS CONTROVERSIAE.
    The Principal Question In This Controversy.

    1] Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life, a dissension has occurred between some few theologians concerning the third use of the Law, namely, whether it is to be urged or not upon regenerate Christians. The one side has said, Yea; the other, Nay.

    Affirmative Theses.
    The True Christian Doctrine concerning This Controversy.

    2] 1. We believe, teach, and confess that, although men truly believing [in Christ] and truly converted to God have been freed and exempted from the curse and coercion of the Law, they nevertheless are not on this account without Law, but have been redeemed by the Son of God in order that they should exercise themselves in it day and night [that they should meditate upon God's Law day and night, and constantly exercise themselves in its observance, Ps. 1:2 ], Ps. 119. For even our first parents before the Fall did not live without Law, who had the Law of God written also into their hearts, because they were created in the image of God, Gen. 1:26f.; 2:16ff; 3:3.

    3] 2. We believe, teach, and confess that the preaching of the Law is to be urged with diligence, not only upon the unbelieving and impenitent, but also upon true believers, who are truly converted, regenerate, and justified by faith.

    4] 3. For although they are regenerate and renewed in the spirit of their mind, yet in the present life this regeneration and renewal is not complete, but only begun, and believers are, by the spirit of their mind, in a constant struggle against the flesh, that is, against the corrupt nature and disposition which cleaves to us unto death. On account of this old Adam, which still inheres in the understanding, the will, and all the powers of man, it is needful that the Law of the Lord always shine before them, in order that they may not from human devotion institute wanton and self-elected cults [that they may frame nothing in a matter of religion from the desire of private devotion, and may not choose divine services not instituted by God's Word]; likewise, that the old Adam also may not employ his own will, but may be subdued against his will, not only by the admonition and threatening of the Law, but also by punishments and blows, so that he may follow and surrender himself captive to the Spirit, 1 Cor. 9:27; Rom. 6:12, Gal. 6:14; Ps. 119:1ff ; Heb. 13:21 (Heb. 12:1).

    5] 4. Now, as regards the distinction between the works of the Law and the fruits of the Spirit, we believe, teach, and confess that the works which are done according to the Law are and are called works of the Law as long as they are only extorted from man by urging the punishment and threatening of God’s wrath.

    6] 5. Fruits of the Spirit, however, are the works which the Spirit of God who dwells in believers works through the regenerate, and which are done by believers so far as they are regenerate [spontaneously and freely], as though they knew of no command, threat, or reward; for in this manner the children of God live in the Law and walk according to the Law of God, which [mode of living] St. Paul in his epistles calls the Law of Christ and the Law of the mind, Rom. 7:25; 8:7; Rom. 8:2; Gal. 6:2.

    7] 6. Thus the Law is and remains both to the penitent and impenitent, both to regenerate and unregenerate men, one [and the same] Law, namely, the immutable will of God; and the difference, so far as concerns obedience, is alone in man, inasmuch as one who is not yet regenerate does for the Law out of constraint and unwillingly what it requires of him (as also the regenerate do according to the flesh); but the believer, so far as he is regenerate, does without constraint and with a willing spirit that which no threatenings [however severe] of the Law could ever extort from him.

    Negative Theses.
    False Contrary Doctrine.

    8] Accordingly, we reject as a dogma and error injurious to, and conflicting with, Christian discipline and true godliness the teaching that the Law in the above-mentioned way and degree is not to be urged upon Christians and true believers, but only upon unbelievers, non-Christians, and the impenitent.

  • Louis

    Grace – you are not serious, right? But calling everybody antinomian who don’t believe in salvation by works is an old trick. Maybe let me give you article 6 of the Formula of Concord, and then you can perhaps reevaluate Bror’s words:

    STATUS CONTROVERSIAE.
    The Principal Question In This Controversy.

    1] Since the Law was given to men for three reasons: first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and [much of] the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life, a dissension has occurred between some few theologians concerning the third use of the Law, namely, whether it is to be urged or not upon regenerate Christians. The one side has said, Yea; the other, Nay.

    Affirmative Theses.
    The True Christian Doctrine concerning This Controversy.

    2] 1. We believe, teach, and confess that, although men truly believing [in Christ] and truly converted to God have been freed and exempted from the curse and coercion of the Law, they nevertheless are not on this account without Law, but have been redeemed by the Son of God in order that they should exercise themselves in it day and night [that they should meditate upon God's Law day and night, and constantly exercise themselves in its observance, Ps. 1:2 ], Ps. 119. For even our first parents before the Fall did not live without Law, who had the Law of God written also into their hearts, because they were created in the image of God, Gen. 1:26f.; 2:16ff; 3:3.

    3] 2. We believe, teach, and confess that the preaching of the Law is to be urged with diligence, not only upon the unbelieving and impenitent, but also upon true believers, who are truly converted, regenerate, and justified by faith.

    4] 3. For although they are regenerate and renewed in the spirit of their mind, yet in the present life this regeneration and renewal is not complete, but only begun, and believers are, by the spirit of their mind, in a constant struggle against the flesh, that is, against the corrupt nature and disposition which cleaves to us unto death. On account of this old Adam, which still inheres in the understanding, the will, and all the powers of man, it is needful that the Law of the Lord always shine before them, in order that they may not from human devotion institute wanton and self-elected cults [that they may frame nothing in a matter of religion from the desire of private devotion, and may not choose divine services not instituted by God's Word]; likewise, that the old Adam also may not employ his own will, but may be subdued against his will, not only by the admonition and threatening of the Law, but also by punishments and blows, so that he may follow and surrender himself captive to the Spirit, 1 Cor. 9:27; Rom. 6:12, Gal. 6:14; Ps. 119:1ff ; Heb. 13:21 (Heb. 12:1).

    5] 4. Now, as regards the distinction between the works of the Law and the fruits of the Spirit, we believe, teach, and confess that the works which are done according to the Law are and are called works of the Law as long as they are only extorted from man by urging the punishment and threatening of God’s wrath.

    6] 5. Fruits of the Spirit, however, are the works which the Spirit of God who dwells in believers works through the regenerate, and which are done by believers so far as they are regenerate [spontaneously and freely], as though they knew of no command, threat, or reward; for in this manner the children of God live in the Law and walk according to the Law of God, which [mode of living] St. Paul in his epistles calls the Law of Christ and the Law of the mind, Rom. 7:25; 8:7; Rom. 8:2; Gal. 6:2.

    7] 6. Thus the Law is and remains both to the penitent and impenitent, both to regenerate and unregenerate men, one [and the same] Law, namely, the immutable will of God; and the difference, so far as concerns obedience, is alone in man, inasmuch as one who is not yet regenerate does for the Law out of constraint and unwillingly what it requires of him (as also the regenerate do according to the flesh); but the believer, so far as he is regenerate, does without constraint and with a willing spirit that which no threatenings [however severe] of the Law could ever extort from him.

    Negative Theses.
    False Contrary Doctrine.

    8] Accordingly, we reject as a dogma and error injurious to, and conflicting with, Christian discipline and true godliness the teaching that the Law in the above-mentioned way and degree is not to be urged upon Christians and true believers, but only upon unbelievers, non-Christians, and the impenitent.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    Do me a favor. Explain antinomianism, and then explain what I said is antinomianism.
    I am not mixing and matching anything. Nor am I assuming anything. I’m just reading the vitriol with which you have displayed yourself on this blog for the last week.
    But you would have us believe that is not sin.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    Do me a favor. Explain antinomianism, and then explain what I said is antinomianism.
    I am not mixing and matching anything. Nor am I assuming anything. I’m just reading the vitriol with which you have displayed yourself on this blog for the last week.
    But you would have us believe that is not sin.

  • Grace

    Bror – 120 – I am not mixing and matching anything. Nor am I assuming anything. I’m just reading the vitriol with which you have displayed yourself on this blog for the last week.”

    Before you concern yourself with my so called “vitriol” look back at your own posts. Disagreeing with you or anyone else, doesn’t define itself as “vitriol” –

    Bror – 116 – “You would have us believe your superiority complex towards hispanics is less a sin and within the bounds of God’s law under the Gospel. But fornication can’t be forgiven.”

    My belief that Hispanics should be deported IF they have come to this country illegally – is not a sin. Fornication is a sin, and YES it can be forgiven if the individual asks the LORD to forgive them.

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

    As for “antinomianism” you know what it means and so do I. Playing the teacher routine doesn’t suit you, no matter how you fashion yourself.

  • Grace

    Bror – 120 – I am not mixing and matching anything. Nor am I assuming anything. I’m just reading the vitriol with which you have displayed yourself on this blog for the last week.”

    Before you concern yourself with my so called “vitriol” look back at your own posts. Disagreeing with you or anyone else, doesn’t define itself as “vitriol” –

    Bror – 116 – “You would have us believe your superiority complex towards hispanics is less a sin and within the bounds of God’s law under the Gospel. But fornication can’t be forgiven.”

    My belief that Hispanics should be deported IF they have come to this country illegally – is not a sin. Fornication is a sin, and YES it can be forgiven if the individual asks the LORD to forgive them.

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

    As for “antinomianism” you know what it means and so do I. Playing the teacher routine doesn’t suit you, no matter how you fashion yourself.

  • Grace

    Louis – 119 – “Grace – you are not serious, right? But calling everybody antinomian who don’t believe in salvation by works is an old trick.”

    “Everybody” – my post regarding “antinomian” was directed to Bror, NOT “everybody” – Don’t confuse yourself by mixing up what, and to whom I was responding to.

  • Grace

    Louis – 119 – “Grace – you are not serious, right? But calling everybody antinomian who don’t believe in salvation by works is an old trick.”

    “Everybody” – my post regarding “antinomian” was directed to Bror, NOT “everybody” – Don’t confuse yourself by mixing up what, and to whom I was responding to.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    My experience is that most people who throw the antinomian phrase around have a differing definition of it then I do. I want to know what yours is.
    Playing the teacher routine? Listen I come here for conversation and a little debate. Teach and be taught is the norm around here. But here it is. I’ll assume, on your behalf, that despite the many hateful things you said, you limit your belief to wanting illegal aliens deported, and don’t actually suspect every hispanic you run into during the day of being a lowly criminal. I’ll leave it at this.
    You would have me believe that you can change a man’s name to boar, and that that sort of name calling is a sin Jesus can forgive, but fornication is not.
    The boar in your vineyard,
    Bror Erickson

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    My experience is that most people who throw the antinomian phrase around have a differing definition of it then I do. I want to know what yours is.
    Playing the teacher routine? Listen I come here for conversation and a little debate. Teach and be taught is the norm around here. But here it is. I’ll assume, on your behalf, that despite the many hateful things you said, you limit your belief to wanting illegal aliens deported, and don’t actually suspect every hispanic you run into during the day of being a lowly criminal. I’ll leave it at this.
    You would have me believe that you can change a man’s name to boar, and that that sort of name calling is a sin Jesus can forgive, but fornication is not.
    The boar in your vineyard,
    Bror Erickson

  • Grace

    Bror – 123 – “Playing the teacher routine? Listen I come here for conversation and a little debate. Teach and be taught is the norm around here. But here it is. I’ll assume, on your behalf, that despite the many hateful things you said, you limit your belief to wanting illegal aliens deported, and don’t actually suspect every hispanic you run into during the day of being a lowly criminal. I’ll leave it at this.” –

    Bror, I have made it crystal clear that I believe illegals should be deported,….. because they have lied, cheated, etc. That in no way makes them all “lowly criminals” – it makes the ones who break the laws of this country criminals, the LAW says that as well.

    - “You would have me believe that you can change a man’s name to boar, and that that sort of name calling is a sin Jesus can forgive, but fornication is not.”

    Bror, I am sorry for misspelling your name, it was not intentional. It was not as you call it “name calling” nor was it a sin. I am sorry for the typo, and I’m sorry that you believe I would stoop so low as to make such an error or purpose.

    Have you bothered to read my post #121 - where I stated:

    - – “My belief that Hispanics should be deported IF they have come to this country illegally – is not a sin. Fornication is a sin, and YES it can be forgiven if the individual asks the LORD to forgive them.” – -

    Take more care next time Bror!

  • Grace

    Bror – 123 – “Playing the teacher routine? Listen I come here for conversation and a little debate. Teach and be taught is the norm around here. But here it is. I’ll assume, on your behalf, that despite the many hateful things you said, you limit your belief to wanting illegal aliens deported, and don’t actually suspect every hispanic you run into during the day of being a lowly criminal. I’ll leave it at this.” –

    Bror, I have made it crystal clear that I believe illegals should be deported,….. because they have lied, cheated, etc. That in no way makes them all “lowly criminals” – it makes the ones who break the laws of this country criminals, the LAW says that as well.

    - “You would have me believe that you can change a man’s name to boar, and that that sort of name calling is a sin Jesus can forgive, but fornication is not.”

    Bror, I am sorry for misspelling your name, it was not intentional. It was not as you call it “name calling” nor was it a sin. I am sorry for the typo, and I’m sorry that you believe I would stoop so low as to make such an error or purpose.

    Have you bothered to read my post #121 - where I stated:

    - – “My belief that Hispanics should be deported IF they have come to this country illegally – is not a sin. Fornication is a sin, and YES it can be forgiven if the individual asks the LORD to forgive them.” – -

    Take more care next time Bror!

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace, Grace, Grace,
    It is testing the limits of my credulity to believe that was a mere typo. I’m the king of typos. I know a typo when I see one. I’d have more respect for you if you just copped to it. You spelled my name right many times in the post, but where it was convenient to call me boar. Which I might add is a far cry from “Bror” even if it does rhyme. for instance, the r, is quite a distance from the o and the a on the keyboard.
    I’m not going to revisit the posts of yesterday. I just now want you to tell me, what about Luther’s saying do you take to be “contrary” to God’s word. What exactly about what I wrote do you find to be antinomian.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace, Grace, Grace,
    It is testing the limits of my credulity to believe that was a mere typo. I’m the king of typos. I know a typo when I see one. I’d have more respect for you if you just copped to it. You spelled my name right many times in the post, but where it was convenient to call me boar. Which I might add is a far cry from “Bror” even if it does rhyme. for instance, the r, is quite a distance from the o and the a on the keyboard.
    I’m not going to revisit the posts of yesterday. I just now want you to tell me, what about Luther’s saying do you take to be “contrary” to God’s word. What exactly about what I wrote do you find to be antinomian.

  • Grace

    Bror – 125 – “It is testing the limits of my credulity to believe that was a mere typo. I’m the king of typos. I know a typo when I see one. I’d have more respect for you if you just copped to it.”

    You aren’t able to accept a heart felt apology?

    I told the truth regarding the typo of your name. Whether you believe me or not. I don’t admit to things I don’t do, in order to relieve your conscience of an accusation you are now making again.

    It is boorish of you to continue your whine.

  • Grace

    Bror – 125 – “It is testing the limits of my credulity to believe that was a mere typo. I’m the king of typos. I know a typo when I see one. I’d have more respect for you if you just copped to it.”

    You aren’t able to accept a heart felt apology?

    I told the truth regarding the typo of your name. Whether you believe me or not. I don’t admit to things I don’t do, in order to relieve your conscience of an accusation you are now making again.

    It is boorish of you to continue your whine.

  • Grace

    Marcus – 126 – “Beck is become a cult leader of sorts.”

    I’m sorry to agree, but it appears to be true.

  • Grace

    Marcus – 126 – “Beck is become a cult leader of sorts.”

    I’m sorry to agree, but it appears to be true.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    You call that a heartfelt apology? really? Really?
    This isn’t a whine. This is a point. That is all.
    You like to lecture others, and chastize them for sins in a very hypocritical way.
    For my part I’ve been called worse, and have called others worse. And I tend not to give a sh*t. Limited as my vocabulary is it goes with the territory.
    But I find you hilarious and sad at the same time. “You don’t admit to doing things you don’t do?” I’m not asking you to. I’m asking you to be honest with yourself and others. What you don’t admit to is anything you can see is actually sinful. Perhaps you think that fooling God is as easy as fooling yourself? I think it is harder to fool him than it is me, and you aren’t doing such a great job of fooling me.
    Now answer my questions please. Or do you think it a typo to call someone an antinomian? I take charges of false doctrine much more seriously than my name. So defend your accusation or apologize.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Grace,
    You call that a heartfelt apology? really? Really?
    This isn’t a whine. This is a point. That is all.
    You like to lecture others, and chastize them for sins in a very hypocritical way.
    For my part I’ve been called worse, and have called others worse. And I tend not to give a sh*t. Limited as my vocabulary is it goes with the territory.
    But I find you hilarious and sad at the same time. “You don’t admit to doing things you don’t do?” I’m not asking you to. I’m asking you to be honest with yourself and others. What you don’t admit to is anything you can see is actually sinful. Perhaps you think that fooling God is as easy as fooling yourself? I think it is harder to fool him than it is me, and you aren’t doing such a great job of fooling me.
    Now answer my questions please. Or do you think it a typo to call someone an antinomian? I take charges of false doctrine much more seriously than my name. So defend your accusation or apologize.

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