Blog arguments

Friends, way back on September 28–that’s last month, 16 days ago–I posted about our pastor’s sermon on a parable:  The Rich Man & Lazarus | Cranach: The Blog of Veith.  That innocent little post has now chalked up a record 422 comments at last count.  What happened is that a very heated debate broke out between Lutherans and non-Lutherans on the true meaning of John 20:23.  Before long, Luther was getting bashed, and non-Lutherans were getting bashed, and feelings were getting hurt on both sides.  Then, at about comment #359, people started talking about ME, taking me to task for allowing unkind things being said on my blog.  I should not allow certain things to be said.  I should establish a  code of conduct, require registration, moderate comments, monitor what people say, and delete negative remarks.

I actually do delete some comments when they go far over the line, but I can’t monitor everything that is said, especially what is said on posts from a month ago.  And in principle, I value open and free discussion.  That becomes impossible if people insist on silencing their opponents.  In general, this blog has the reputation of having a higher level of discourse than other blogs, a reputation I don’t want to lose.  At the same time, there seems to be some misunderstandings.  So I will offer some thoughts:

(1)  The word “argument” has become a synonym for “fight.”  (As in, “He had an argument with his wife.”)  That shows the decay of contemporary argumentation.  An argument is supposed to be a train of thought that leads to persuasion.  The goal of an argument is not to score points but to win over your opponent to your way of thinking.  An effective argument ends in agreement.

When you insult, mock, name call, or otherwise make your opponent angry, you will never win the argument.  That is, you will never persuade your opponent.  Instead, you will make him or her “defensive,” as we say, and from behind that defensive bunker, your opponent will never surrender, no matter how good your logic and evidence may be.   So mean and vicious and hurtful remarks are simply counterproductive.  I shouldn’t have to ban them.   They are the equivalent of an admission of defeat.

In the current case, both sides were giving as good as they got.  At the same time, it is unfair to zap your opponent, and then get all upset when you get zapped in return!  Again, both sides were doing that.

(2)  Ah, but Jesus called the Pharisees a “brood of vipers.”  If Jesus can call people names, I can too.  No, Jesus spoke as one with authority, and not as one of their scribes.  We are not Jesus and lack His authority.  We are scribes.

When I read that passage, I do confess and feel that I am a viper.  Some people do bear God’s authority by virtue of their vocation.  When I am castigated by my pastor, or parents, or boss, or the police officer who caught me breaking the law, they do have the calling to deal with me and I take their words to heart. When someone without that calling castigates me, it does not convict me but only makes me angry.

(3)  Ah, but we must proclaim the Law to convict people of sin!  First of all, not all disputes involve moral failure.  But, setting that aside, applying the Law is far more involved than just calling people bad  names or even saying they will go to Hell.  Applying the theological use of the Law means holding up God’s Law as a mirror so that people will see themselves and their sin, provoking repentance and then a turning to Christ, to the Gospel which also must be proclaimed.   But if the person you are attacking does not see his sin, but rather is provoked into self-righteous indignation, you have failed to apply the Law successfully.  Preaching the Law is more like surgery than beating with a blunt instrument, which is why Luther and Walther call the ability to apply and to distinguish Law and Gospel is the highest art.

(4)  It is good to hold discussions with people whom we do not agree with.  We have a tendency to only talk with people like ourselves (Lutherans with Lutherans, Christians with Christians, conservatives with conservatives, liberals with liberals).  But if we ever want to, again, win anyone over to our side, we need practice talking with those who do not believe as we do.

One of the great strengths of this blog is that it attracts–how, I don’t really know–people of many different views.  I loved it when that Muslim guy joined in recently, stating his objections to Christianity, which many of you–including diehard opponents usually–joined together to defend.  I’m glad to have the “spiritual but not religious” Bunnycatch3r here.  And the whole gamut of Christian theologies.  And the atheists who chime in.  Don’t you see how good that is?

The old record for most comments was held by a series of posts involving Michael the atheist.  You commenters, for the most part,  treated him with great gentleness.  And do you remember how he said, at one point, something to the effect that this blog was his support group!  I don’t think we came to an agreement with him before he stopped posting, but who knows what might have happened to him since then and what part some of you might have played in his life?  If I excluded him or deleted his negative comments about Christianity, or if you just resorted to calling him names or got all offended at his very presence, the opportunity to talk with him seriously about Christ would never have happened.

So, in conclusion, I’ve got to trust you, and I do.  Learn how to argue.  Don’t have a thin skin.  Talk with people you don’t agree with.  Try to win each other over.  Realize that we have in common both the wretchedness of our sin and the forgiveness of our Savior.

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About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Larry Wilson

    Check out Monty Python’s “Argument Clinic” — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

  • Larry Wilson

    Check out Monty Python’s “Argument Clinic” — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

  • Eric Brown

    One thing I like to remember is that while Christ Jesus can display righteous anger… I am still in my sinful flesh, and my flesh will twist righteous anger into just plain old sinful anger quickly… and then even into self-righteous anger that has me using truth as a pretext to become a smug and cruel and a hypocrite.

    Anger is to be avoided, for I am a sinful man.

    Oh, and if that is my Uncle Larry above – hi uncle Larry. If its someone else – did you know that I have an uncle Larry Wilson?

  • Eric Brown

    One thing I like to remember is that while Christ Jesus can display righteous anger… I am still in my sinful flesh, and my flesh will twist righteous anger into just plain old sinful anger quickly… and then even into self-righteous anger that has me using truth as a pretext to become a smug and cruel and a hypocrite.

    Anger is to be avoided, for I am a sinful man.

    Oh, and if that is my Uncle Larry above – hi uncle Larry. If its someone else – did you know that I have an uncle Larry Wilson?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Well said. And if anyone REALLY wants to get some abuse (on other blogs than this one of course), start pointing out the ad hominem fallacies, and how it only demonstrates that one is unable or unwilling to make a real argument. If one could see purple faces over the Internet, that would do it. :^)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Well said. And if anyone REALLY wants to get some abuse (on other blogs than this one of course), start pointing out the ad hominem fallacies, and how it only demonstrates that one is unable or unwilling to make a real argument. If one could see purple faces over the Internet, that would do it. :^)

  • Dennis Peskey

    Oh, the irony of righteous decay sprouting forth from a discussion on the Office of the Keys. It’s nice to know the grandson’s of Zebedee are doing well.
    Peace,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    Oh, the irony of righteous decay sprouting forth from a discussion on the Office of the Keys. It’s nice to know the grandson’s of Zebedee are doing well.
    Peace,
    Dennis

  • kerner

    Dennis Peskey:

    The irony got even deeper when the participants to the argument, at one point, started forgiving each other. Of course, we just kept right on arguing, deepening the irony yet further. :)

  • kerner

    Dennis Peskey:

    The irony got even deeper when the participants to the argument, at one point, started forgiving each other. Of course, we just kept right on arguing, deepening the irony yet further. :)

  • WebMonk

    Can I give myself a halo for never saying anything bad in that thread? (of course, I never posted in that thread, so …. do I still get the halo?)

  • WebMonk

    Can I give myself a halo for never saying anything bad in that thread? (of course, I never posted in that thread, so …. do I still get the halo?)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Webmonk @ 6

    I forgive you webmonk for not posting on that thread. I really do. really.

    And I would throw something ad homen at you like my Old Adam is urging me to do just now, but unfortunately there is nothing handy that I can think of to throw at you. It would be fun and make me feel good and I would not have to deal with your hurt look in person. I could just go on right ahead feeling smug and good.

    I sometimes wonder how this would all look if we could all meet in some bar somewhere over a beer (or bottled water for some of us…)

    Ok. hem haw. The point of righteousness is to be good for others. This is where I get to confess and apologize where I did not do this or failed to do this where I could have.

    I am truly so sorry. And , ugh, I need to be specific don´t I? I hate that part.

    Grace and Ptl: If there is anything at all I said that was said in a way that made you feel less than loved and valued and respected, then I was wrong and sincerely apologize. There is simply no excuse for that behavior for any reason at all.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Webmonk @ 6

    I forgive you webmonk for not posting on that thread. I really do. really.

    And I would throw something ad homen at you like my Old Adam is urging me to do just now, but unfortunately there is nothing handy that I can think of to throw at you. It would be fun and make me feel good and I would not have to deal with your hurt look in person. I could just go on right ahead feeling smug and good.

    I sometimes wonder how this would all look if we could all meet in some bar somewhere over a beer (or bottled water for some of us…)

    Ok. hem haw. The point of righteousness is to be good for others. This is where I get to confess and apologize where I did not do this or failed to do this where I could have.

    I am truly so sorry. And , ugh, I need to be specific don´t I? I hate that part.

    Grace and Ptl: If there is anything at all I said that was said in a way that made you feel less than loved and valued and respected, then I was wrong and sincerely apologize. There is simply no excuse for that behavior for any reason at all.

  • Dennis Peskey

    Webmonk #6 – You can borrow my “halo” for the day – I’m going golfing which involves more “old Adam” than the “new Adam.”

    Kerner #5 – Just can’t seem to drown that old boy no matter hard hard we try (this is not an argument for full immersion!)

    Dr. Veith – Never had “acorn soup” – as a Lutheran I prefer brats and beer (cigars optional depending on the presense of Baptists.)

    Peace,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    Webmonk #6 – You can borrow my “halo” for the day – I’m going golfing which involves more “old Adam” than the “new Adam.”

    Kerner #5 – Just can’t seem to drown that old boy no matter hard hard we try (this is not an argument for full immersion!)

    Dr. Veith – Never had “acorn soup” – as a Lutheran I prefer brats and beer (cigars optional depending on the presense of Baptists.)

    Peace,
    Dennis

  • DonS

    Wow! I followed the early part of the thread, but never posted, and didn’t know of its historic continuation! I just glanced through it — sheesh!

    As a non-Lutheran who really enjoys participating on this blog, some tips to fellow non-Lutherans. This is a great group of thoughtful, respectful people who want to have meaningful conversations about the issues of the day. By all means, participate — they welcome that! But, understand that it is a Lutheran blog! You are on their territory. Respect that, and respect their faith, which is, after all, the foundation of the faith of all of us who are Protestant. You are not going to convince them not to be Lutheran, especially by being combative, nor should you. I have had some lively discussions with Lutherans, such as Bror, over the tenets of Lutheranism and how they differ from other Protestant views, but the purpose was to learn more about Lutheranism, not to discredit or disrespect it. At the end of the day, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

    This blog is unique. It is the only blog commenting community that I have ever participated in on a consistent basis, because it is the only one where the commenters are consistently thoughtful, responsive, and respectful to one another. The comment discussions often end up far afield from the topic of the original post — which is kind of cool — because it leads to some great conversation and enlightenment. Let’s all work hard to keep it loving and allow Dr. Veith to maintain it in its present form.

  • DonS

    Wow! I followed the early part of the thread, but never posted, and didn’t know of its historic continuation! I just glanced through it — sheesh!

    As a non-Lutheran who really enjoys participating on this blog, some tips to fellow non-Lutherans. This is a great group of thoughtful, respectful people who want to have meaningful conversations about the issues of the day. By all means, participate — they welcome that! But, understand that it is a Lutheran blog! You are on their territory. Respect that, and respect their faith, which is, after all, the foundation of the faith of all of us who are Protestant. You are not going to convince them not to be Lutheran, especially by being combative, nor should you. I have had some lively discussions with Lutherans, such as Bror, over the tenets of Lutheranism and how they differ from other Protestant views, but the purpose was to learn more about Lutheranism, not to discredit or disrespect it. At the end of the day, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

    This blog is unique. It is the only blog commenting community that I have ever participated in on a consistent basis, because it is the only one where the commenters are consistently thoughtful, responsive, and respectful to one another. The comment discussions often end up far afield from the topic of the original post — which is kind of cool — because it leads to some great conversation and enlightenment. Let’s all work hard to keep it loving and allow Dr. Veith to maintain it in its present form.

  • Arfies

    I read this blog faithfully because I value the wisdom of Veith and also because I learn so much from the comments. Censoring the comments would leave us all the poorer; but of course our comments need to be argumentative, rational, and faithful—not mean, petty, ad hominem, or name-calling. I think we are intelligent and loving enough to do that.

  • Arfies

    I read this blog faithfully because I value the wisdom of Veith and also because I learn so much from the comments. Censoring the comments would leave us all the poorer; but of course our comments need to be argumentative, rational, and faithful—not mean, petty, ad hominem, or name-calling. I think we are intelligent and loving enough to do that.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I’m sorry I missed out!

    Give peace a chance ;-P you jerks!

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I’m sorry I missed out!

    Give peace a chance ;-P you jerks!

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Yes DonS we have had some good conversations. Thank you for those.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Yes DonS we have had some good conversations. Thank you for those.

  • Matthew Surburg

    I enjoy reading Dr. Veith’s thoughts here, but what means the most to me is his willingness to keep censoring to a minimum. I used to follow another blog regularly and post occasionally; but when, in the midst of a heated debate, the moderator started editing comments with which he disagreed, I lost all respect for him and haven’t been back.

    Now, I read Dr. Veith’s posts and follow the threads which interest me. However, I rarely post on discussions on blogs, Facebook, whatever, because it seems that people rarely consider opinions outside their own (that statement includes me, if I am honest). It’s also terribly time-consuming. Still, if others have found the discussions stimulating, edifying, and respectful, that’s really all you can ask.

  • Matthew Surburg

    I enjoy reading Dr. Veith’s thoughts here, but what means the most to me is his willingness to keep censoring to a minimum. I used to follow another blog regularly and post occasionally; but when, in the midst of a heated debate, the moderator started editing comments with which he disagreed, I lost all respect for him and haven’t been back.

    Now, I read Dr. Veith’s posts and follow the threads which interest me. However, I rarely post on discussions on blogs, Facebook, whatever, because it seems that people rarely consider opinions outside their own (that statement includes me, if I am honest). It’s also terribly time-consuming. Still, if others have found the discussions stimulating, edifying, and respectful, that’s really all you can ask.

  • Matt Jamison

    It seems to me that people are more civil when face-to-face. I would love to join or form a live group to engage in the best kind of argument over the kind of issues that interest Dr. Veith and you all. Anyone in the NYC have any interest in this?

  • Matt Jamison

    It seems to me that people are more civil when face-to-face. I would love to join or form a live group to engage in the best kind of argument over the kind of issues that interest Dr. Veith and you all. Anyone in the NYC have any interest in this?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Matt @ 14

    What is your religious background? I can put you in touch with a Lutheranized Anglican pastor who is really very very good. Lemme know.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Matt @ 14

    What is your religious background? I can put you in touch with a Lutheranized Anglican pastor who is really very very good. Lemme know.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    I don’t know. I read through some of my comments over on the other thread. It seems to me I should have just bowed out of that conversation earlier, not sure all of my comments were as charitable as they could be. I’ll save excuses.
    I have enjoyed this blog. Maybe I’m just a sick s.o.b. but I enjoy a heated debate at times. DonS has obliged me a few times, as Bike Bubba, Porcel under a different moniker, and tODD. Over the years most of us have grown in our respect for each other even as we rebuke one another. Of course we started with a modicum of respect for each other too. I’ve only met tODD but I consider most of the contributers here to be friends. And yes I do talk to my friends in the same manner, sometimes I’m even more harsh.
    Over the years I’ve noticed people being won over, or at least moving from previous positions. I know I have. and that has been due to civil if heated debate.
    DonS says this is a Lutheran Blog. Veith I know disagrees, or at least wants it to be more than that. Lutherans do comment here, and not a few. But I’m with Veith, I like that people from different backgrounds come and discuss here. Just be prepared to actually discuss, debate, or otherwise back up what you say, and it might help if you answer the question being asked.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    I don’t know. I read through some of my comments over on the other thread. It seems to me I should have just bowed out of that conversation earlier, not sure all of my comments were as charitable as they could be. I’ll save excuses.
    I have enjoyed this blog. Maybe I’m just a sick s.o.b. but I enjoy a heated debate at times. DonS has obliged me a few times, as Bike Bubba, Porcel under a different moniker, and tODD. Over the years most of us have grown in our respect for each other even as we rebuke one another. Of course we started with a modicum of respect for each other too. I’ve only met tODD but I consider most of the contributers here to be friends. And yes I do talk to my friends in the same manner, sometimes I’m even more harsh.
    Over the years I’ve noticed people being won over, or at least moving from previous positions. I know I have. and that has been due to civil if heated debate.
    DonS says this is a Lutheran Blog. Veith I know disagrees, or at least wants it to be more than that. Lutherans do comment here, and not a few. But I’m with Veith, I like that people from different backgrounds come and discuss here. Just be prepared to actually discuss, debate, or otherwise back up what you say, and it might help if you answer the question being asked.

  • Booklover

    Excellent post, Dr. Veith. The way you handle your blog is just fine. There is no possible way that you can follow the comments throughout the entire day, let alone weekly and monthly!

    Thank you for your educational, Christ-filled posts.

  • Booklover

    Excellent post, Dr. Veith. The way you handle your blog is just fine. There is no possible way that you can follow the comments throughout the entire day, let alone weekly and monthly!

    Thank you for your educational, Christ-filled posts.

  • Matt Jamison

    FWS: you may contact me at matjam [at] mail.com. I’ll bet a dollar I already know him but would still appreciate the contact.

  • Matt Jamison

    FWS: you may contact me at matjam [at] mail.com. I’ll bet a dollar I already know him but would still appreciate the contact.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith, thank you for your post.

    I doubt you had me in mind, when you wrote your treatise, 😉 – more likely any one of a number of rude, mean, questionnaires, who were unable to accept my thoughtful answer in post 45.

    And so it goes, now 439 posts.

    Thank you again,

    Grace

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith, thank you for your post.

    I doubt you had me in mind, when you wrote your treatise, 😉 – more likely any one of a number of rude, mean, questionnaires, who were unable to accept my thoughtful answer in post 45.

    And so it goes, now 439 posts.

    Thank you again,

    Grace

  • Scots

    How ironic. I am very thankful for that sermon. I, a non-Lutheran. I actually saved it and am going to go over it again. Whether I agree with how the text was applied is not important. I took the good and what was good about that sermon is it pointed me to Christ, it showed me again the mercy and grace that was extended to the worst of sinners (that would be me), it exalted Christ in my sight and showed me His beauty and majesty (particularly the part that Dr Veith quoted). It caused me to worship Him with a heart full of thankfulness.

    I wouldn’t have even known about what happened in the comment thread (since I never returned to that posting) apart from it being mentioned here. And that’s a good thing…

  • Scots

    How ironic. I am very thankful for that sermon. I, a non-Lutheran. I actually saved it and am going to go over it again. Whether I agree with how the text was applied is not important. I took the good and what was good about that sermon is it pointed me to Christ, it showed me again the mercy and grace that was extended to the worst of sinners (that would be me), it exalted Christ in my sight and showed me His beauty and majesty (particularly the part that Dr Veith quoted). It caused me to worship Him with a heart full of thankfulness.

    I wouldn’t have even known about what happened in the comment thread (since I never returned to that posting) apart from it being mentioned here. And that’s a good thing…

  • Richard

    I love Bror’s comments! He’s a “sick s.o.b.” and he treats his friends even more harsh! I love you for these comments, man, and I don’t even know you! Where else can we get this love but on the Cranach blog!

  • Richard

    I love Bror’s comments! He’s a “sick s.o.b.” and he treats his friends even more harsh! I love you for these comments, man, and I don’t even know you! Where else can we get this love but on the Cranach blog!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Hi. I’m one of the people who contributed heavily to that, er … discussion we’re … discussing. In case you somehow missed that.

    Right off the bat, I will cop to several things:
    1) I am stubborn
    2) I enjoy snark, among other kinds of humor
    3) I really enjoy some of the conversations this blog engenders … sometimes too much
    4) I am not always the most loving person in those conversations

    To those points (with an emphasis on #4), I would simply ask for forgiveness, especially from those towards whom I was not always loving, but perhaps also to those poor people who felt compelled to read the whole thread and therefore lost time they could have spent more valuably, perhaps gardening or (repeatedly) trimming their nails.

    And I will tell you, FWS (@7), that you are forgiven for your less than loving comments, even if I must inwardly smile a little wry smile as I do so, my eyes twinkling ever so slightly at the irony.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Hi. I’m one of the people who contributed heavily to that, er … discussion we’re … discussing. In case you somehow missed that.

    Right off the bat, I will cop to several things:
    1) I am stubborn
    2) I enjoy snark, among other kinds of humor
    3) I really enjoy some of the conversations this blog engenders … sometimes too much
    4) I am not always the most loving person in those conversations

    To those points (with an emphasis on #4), I would simply ask for forgiveness, especially from those towards whom I was not always loving, but perhaps also to those poor people who felt compelled to read the whole thread and therefore lost time they could have spent more valuably, perhaps gardening or (repeatedly) trimming their nails.

    And I will tell you, FWS (@7), that you are forgiven for your less than loving comments, even if I must inwardly smile a little wry smile as I do so, my eyes twinkling ever so slightly at the irony.

  • Scots

    Here’s where I like to find traction when engaging on the internet (or elsewhere).

    John 13:34-35 and 1 John 4:7-21 and Philippians 2:1-11 lay the groundwork for me to try (by God’s grace) to live these out:

    to be patient and kind
    to avoid enviousness, boasting, rudeness, arrogance
    to not insist on getting my own way (hey! there’s a thought, huh?)
    to not be irritable or resentful
    to not delight in evil, but delight in the truth
    to bear with others
    TO BELIEVE THE BEST OF OTHERS (major traction here!)
    to hope and endure all things

    and, by this, will ALL men know that I am His disciple

    (I’m still a long way off in this, but I want to do better)

  • Scots

    Here’s where I like to find traction when engaging on the internet (or elsewhere).

    John 13:34-35 and 1 John 4:7-21 and Philippians 2:1-11 lay the groundwork for me to try (by God’s grace) to live these out:

    to be patient and kind
    to avoid enviousness, boasting, rudeness, arrogance
    to not insist on getting my own way (hey! there’s a thought, huh?)
    to not be irritable or resentful
    to not delight in evil, but delight in the truth
    to bear with others
    TO BELIEVE THE BEST OF OTHERS (major traction here!)
    to hope and endure all things

    and, by this, will ALL men know that I am His disciple

    (I’m still a long way off in this, but I want to do better)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    But … if I may engage this discussion here without offending anyone, some thoughts …

    I disagree that “an effective argument ends in agreement.” Strictly speaking, I suppose that is true, in the sense of “producing the desired effect.” But an identical argument could be made to two different people, one of whom listens and is persuaded, yet the other refuses to consider the points as his mind is already made up. The flaw is not always in the argument. We do believe as Christians that the very Word of God himself — surely an effective argument (though not merely an intellectual premise, let me be clear), if ever there was one — can be rejected by hard hearts. That said, agreement is surely the goal of any true argument.

    I would also note that Jesus’s was hardly the only voice was hardly the only one in the Bible that could be accused of being derisive, mocking, snarky, or what-have-you. Paul in Galatians 5:12, anyone? Elijah in 1 Kings 18:27-29 (which is not as funny in the NIV, which neglects to mention Elijah’s wry suggestion that Baal is busy “relieving himself”)? I’m sure there are other examples. Men of God have used mockery to address godless arguments more than a few times. Is the suggestion that this is only allowable within the confines of Scripture? Subscribers to the Lutheran Confessions would have a hard time arguing so.

    I would further add — though I am open to being educated on this issue, as I never took a formal forensics course — that there is some misunderstanding on ad hominem arguments. Ad hominem replies are not a legitimate rebuttal to the argument being made, it is true. That does not mean that all ad hominem arguments are themselves fallacious, or even without good points. Does the fact that Person X, who suggests Idea A, doesn’t live out Idea A himself, mean that Idea A is necessarily incorrect? No. Does that mean that it is not worth discussing why Person X does not appear to believe Idea A applies to him? No.

    And, should any of you live in the Portland (Oregon) area, I would rather have a beer with you than type at you on this blog. I once did this with Bror, and it definitely was a good thing, helping me to understand that Bror was not, in fact, a raving idiot incapable of the simplest speech. See, once you’ve had a beer with someone, you can joke like that. (Confidential to Bror: I never really thought that, anyway. I just think you can be a sloppy typist sometimes, like I can be a windbag sometimes.)

    Finally, Dennis, why are you discussing “acorn soup” (@8)?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    But … if I may engage this discussion here without offending anyone, some thoughts …

    I disagree that “an effective argument ends in agreement.” Strictly speaking, I suppose that is true, in the sense of “producing the desired effect.” But an identical argument could be made to two different people, one of whom listens and is persuaded, yet the other refuses to consider the points as his mind is already made up. The flaw is not always in the argument. We do believe as Christians that the very Word of God himself — surely an effective argument (though not merely an intellectual premise, let me be clear), if ever there was one — can be rejected by hard hearts. That said, agreement is surely the goal of any true argument.

    I would also note that Jesus’s was hardly the only voice was hardly the only one in the Bible that could be accused of being derisive, mocking, snarky, or what-have-you. Paul in Galatians 5:12, anyone? Elijah in 1 Kings 18:27-29 (which is not as funny in the NIV, which neglects to mention Elijah’s wry suggestion that Baal is busy “relieving himself”)? I’m sure there are other examples. Men of God have used mockery to address godless arguments more than a few times. Is the suggestion that this is only allowable within the confines of Scripture? Subscribers to the Lutheran Confessions would have a hard time arguing so.

    I would further add — though I am open to being educated on this issue, as I never took a formal forensics course — that there is some misunderstanding on ad hominem arguments. Ad hominem replies are not a legitimate rebuttal to the argument being made, it is true. That does not mean that all ad hominem arguments are themselves fallacious, or even without good points. Does the fact that Person X, who suggests Idea A, doesn’t live out Idea A himself, mean that Idea A is necessarily incorrect? No. Does that mean that it is not worth discussing why Person X does not appear to believe Idea A applies to him? No.

    And, should any of you live in the Portland (Oregon) area, I would rather have a beer with you than type at you on this blog. I once did this with Bror, and it definitely was a good thing, helping me to understand that Bror was not, in fact, a raving idiot incapable of the simplest speech. See, once you’ve had a beer with someone, you can joke like that. (Confidential to Bror: I never really thought that, anyway. I just think you can be a sloppy typist sometimes, like I can be a windbag sometimes.)

    Finally, Dennis, why are you discussing “acorn soup” (@8)?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Todd @ 22

    Great. I am going to go trim my nails now. Thanks for reminding me…

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Todd @ 22

    Great. I am going to go trim my nails now. Thanks for reminding me…

  • http:theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    Todd – I mentioned acorn soup on that thread. Inside joke. Apologies.

    Overall, I do regret the instances where my temper got the better of me. But I also agree with Todd, in that arguments do not always produce agreement etc., and that sarcasm is not always untoward. Just not all the time. Like a little spice.

    Furthermore, and this is very important, keeping a sense of humour in all these internet discussions is a great help.

    Unfortunately, I’m a bit off the beaten track for most of you, but I do brew my own beer (and cider and wine and mead and pulque and root beer for those otherwise disposed), if any of you ever come to the Saskatoon area.

  • http:theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    Todd – I mentioned acorn soup on that thread. Inside joke. Apologies.

    Overall, I do regret the instances where my temper got the better of me. But I also agree with Todd, in that arguments do not always produce agreement etc., and that sarcasm is not always untoward. Just not all the time. Like a little spice.

    Furthermore, and this is very important, keeping a sense of humour in all these internet discussions is a great help.

    Unfortunately, I’m a bit off the beaten track for most of you, but I do brew my own beer (and cider and wine and mead and pulque and root beer for those otherwise disposed), if any of you ever come to the Saskatoon area.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 26

    oh no you didn´t go there…. dang.
    rootbeer.

    I remember that. Come down to brasil and brew some . I will put you and yours up and feed ya for free…. and the beer is very good down here….

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 26

    oh no you didn´t go there…. dang.
    rootbeer.

    I remember that. Come down to brasil and brew some . I will put you and yours up and feed ya for free…. and the beer is very good down here….

  • Dan Kempin

    Plus, this blog is a great place to see the phrase “ad hominem” used ad nauseum!

    (Oh NO he dinnant . . . )

  • Dan Kempin

    Plus, this blog is a great place to see the phrase “ad hominem” used ad nauseum!

    (Oh NO he dinnant . . . )

  • Dan Kempin

    (Wait . . . do I need to repent now?)

  • Dan Kempin

    (Wait . . . do I need to repent now?)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Louis (@26), no, I know why you mentioned “acorn soup”. I just don’t know why Dennis did. And how do you make pulque in SK? Agaves, what? Greenhouse? Heck, I’m surprised you can grow wine grapes up there.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Louis (@26), no, I know why you mentioned “acorn soup”. I just don’t know why Dennis did. And how do you make pulque in SK? Agaves, what? Greenhouse? Heck, I’m surprised you can grow wine grapes up there.

  • http:theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    Todd – no, pulque from bought syrup. And the same with the wine, although you can make wine from grapes that grow here. My vines are just too young yet, and too few.

  • http:theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    Todd – no, pulque from bought syrup. And the same with the wine, although you can make wine from grapes that grow here. My vines are just too young yet, and too few.

  • Dennis Peskey

    Todd #24 – When Dr. Veith posted this, I took the time to read each individual posting lest I inadvertently offend someone. I was pleasantly amused at posting #377 (Todd/Bror – why don’t we just organise an acorn soup cook-off – whoever makes the best one, can tell Veith… Oh never mind ). I admit to being clueless as to what acorn soup looks or tastes like (I hope it’s not chicken!)
    Peace,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    Todd #24 – When Dr. Veith posted this, I took the time to read each individual posting lest I inadvertently offend someone. I was pleasantly amused at posting #377 (Todd/Bror – why don’t we just organise an acorn soup cook-off – whoever makes the best one, can tell Veith… Oh never mind ). I admit to being clueless as to what acorn soup looks or tastes like (I hope it’s not chicken!)
    Peace,
    Dennis

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    denis @ 32

    billions of squirels cant be wrong. but then… i hear the puritans relied on acorns as a major source of food. anythink u know about that porcell?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    denis @ 32

    billions of squirels cant be wrong. but then… i hear the puritans relied on acorns as a major source of food. anythink u know about that porcell?

  • EGK

    It’s well into the discussion now, but Dr. Veith’s comments about the view of many that “argument” is synonymous with “fight” reminds me of Chesterton’s statement, “We quarrel because we have forgotten how to argue.”

  • EGK

    It’s well into the discussion now, but Dr. Veith’s comments about the view of many that “argument” is synonymous with “fight” reminds me of Chesterton’s statement, “We quarrel because we have forgotten how to argue.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Dennis (@32), wow, and people accuse me of having too much free time! 😉

    Louis’ reference to “acorn soup” was, as he noted (@26), an inside joke, one that stemmed from a completely unrelated discussion on my Facebook page.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Dennis (@32), wow, and people accuse me of having too much free time! 😉

    Louis’ reference to “acorn soup” was, as he noted (@26), an inside joke, one that stemmed from a completely unrelated discussion on my Facebook page.

  • kerner

    Geez. I feel like a schmo because I don’t brew beer or wine. I do, however, grow my own peppers, gooseberries, herbs, and if you can believe it in Milwaukee, apricots. All I make is salsa, jam, and herbal lemonade.

  • kerner

    Geez. I feel like a schmo because I don’t brew beer or wine. I do, however, grow my own peppers, gooseberries, herbs, and if you can believe it in Milwaukee, apricots. All I make is salsa, jam, and herbal lemonade.

  • kerner

    By the way, that thread is up to 475 comments now.

  • kerner

    By the way, that thread is up to 475 comments now.

  • Cincinnatus

    I would just like to inform everyone of my righteousness, for I did not participate in that infamous thread.

  • Cincinnatus

    I would just like to inform everyone of my righteousness, for I did not participate in that infamous thread.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Richard,
    You should see me at pastoral gatherings…
    tODD, @24,
    Very sloppy typist. too much so, really.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Richard,
    You should see me at pastoral gatherings…
    tODD, @24,
    Very sloppy typist. too much so, really.

  • WebMonk

    Wow, I can tell that must have been an absolutely incredible discussion going on over there!

    The mere discussion of the discussion is up to 40 comments!

  • WebMonk

    Wow, I can tell that must have been an absolutely incredible discussion going on over there!

    The mere discussion of the discussion is up to 40 comments!


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