The ideological crisis of liberalism?

Although many states are hurting financially, the states with the biggest financial problems are the “blue states” like California and New York whose Democratic state legislatures with their liberal policies have brought them to the verge of ruin.  Michael Gerson describes the problem and suggests that they point to a crisis in liberalism:

Most significantly, the blue-state financial misery continues and deepens the ideological crisis of American liberalism. Few politicians in traditionally liberal states now speak about the expanding promise of progressive government and the welfare state. New Jersey is already in conservative revolt. New York’s Democratic governor-elect, Andrew Cuomo, campaigned on a promise of budget cuts without tax increases. The New York congressional delegation shifted significantly in a Republican direction. While California remains in denial – even after a budget crisis that has lasted for a decade – that could rapidly change as well. It may be Democratic governors who are forced by economic reality to limit the size and ambitions of government, delivering a body blow to liberalism itself. If progressive activism can’t survive in these places, it will be difficult for it to survive anywhere.

via Michael Gerson – Blue-state budget crises spell more trouble for Democrats.

But isn’t it also possible that a really severe and prolonged economic crisis might tilt the country to the hard left? For example, what if the government responded to the housing crisis by nationalizing the property of those evil banks and forgiving everyone’s mortgages? Would that not be popular? Yes, this would destroy our whole economic system. But would Americans have the principles to oppose measures that might seem to help them economically but that would be wrong?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Porcell

    The answer is that the American people are essentially a center-right people and would not stand for a takeover of banking or any other major segment of the economy. The people are well aware of the evil of a monstrous and intrusive federal government.

    The hard-left agenda of Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et al has been royally defeated by the American people who will continue to eject big-spending Democrats and Republicans out of office. The liberals on the left and right coasts are in denial about this, though even in Massachusetts one can detect a whiff of concern about big-spending government types who promise the moon but in effect feather the nests of the political class and the government workers/bureaucrats associated with this class.

  • Porcell

    The answer is that the American people are essentially a center-right people and would not stand for a takeover of banking or any other major segment of the economy. The people are well aware of the evil of a monstrous and intrusive federal government.

    The hard-left agenda of Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et al has been royally defeated by the American people who will continue to eject big-spending Democrats and Republicans out of office. The liberals on the left and right coasts are in denial about this, though even in Massachusetts one can detect a whiff of concern about big-spending government types who promise the moon but in effect feather the nests of the political class and the government workers/bureaucrats associated with this class.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    The republicans will control the legislature and governorships of 5 states.

    If I were a democrat, I would bait the republicans into enacting all of their ideas in every one of those states and set back and make some popcorn.

    Who knows. Maybe it would work in the middle of a recession to radically lay off the people in the public sector, close all the libraries and parks or charge steep user fees there, opt out of medicare, ditch welfare, gut homeless programs and slash property , sales and income taxes at the same time. They would also dismantle health departments that monitor food safety in restaurants and osha type stuff… and dismantle any public support of the state bars and medical association licensing that are monopolistic.

    The republican gimmick of saying that they are against expanding govt, and then expanding it, and then cutting taxes while radically increasing spending and breaking all previous spending records pre Obama, works at the federal level because there we can simply spend and borrow by printing more money and we can avoid being tax and spend democrats. At the state level the ability to borrow is exceedingly more limited.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    The republicans will control the legislature and governorships of 5 states.

    If I were a democrat, I would bait the republicans into enacting all of their ideas in every one of those states and set back and make some popcorn.

    Who knows. Maybe it would work in the middle of a recession to radically lay off the people in the public sector, close all the libraries and parks or charge steep user fees there, opt out of medicare, ditch welfare, gut homeless programs and slash property , sales and income taxes at the same time. They would also dismantle health departments that monitor food safety in restaurants and osha type stuff… and dismantle any public support of the state bars and medical association licensing that are monopolistic.

    The republican gimmick of saying that they are against expanding govt, and then expanding it, and then cutting taxes while radically increasing spending and breaking all previous spending records pre Obama, works at the federal level because there we can simply spend and borrow by printing more money and we can avoid being tax and spend democrats. At the state level the ability to borrow is exceedingly more limited.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    California is in debt because of their nutty political system – voting for the goodies, but voting against the taxes that’ll pay for the goodies, meaning Santa has to borrow more money to pay for the goodies, and round and round we go (downward, as in a spiral).

    IE, they have liberal wants, and conservative pockets :)

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    California is in debt because of their nutty political system – voting for the goodies, but voting against the taxes that’ll pay for the goodies, meaning Santa has to borrow more money to pay for the goodies, and round and round we go (downward, as in a spiral).

    IE, they have liberal wants, and conservative pockets :)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    FWS, interesting idea….but are we looking at disasters in conservative, low tax states at this point? If not, I’d hold off on the popcorn.

    Louis is correct that too many Californians seem to think that the tooth fairy provides government services, too, and are now shocked that it’s an IOU showing up under the pillow when they lose a tooth.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    FWS, interesting idea….but are we looking at disasters in conservative, low tax states at this point? If not, I’d hold off on the popcorn.

    Louis is correct that too many Californians seem to think that the tooth fairy provides government services, too, and are now shocked that it’s an IOU showing up under the pillow when they lose a tooth.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Bike @ 4

    Don´t read me wrong. the shock of californians is one for both liberals and conservatives alike. the only real diff between republicans and democrats is that dems are tax and borrow and spend and republicans are borrow and spend. which is worse?

    And I agree that our economy, at least, would work better if we shrank government. This did not happen under Reagan. It might have happened under Goldwater. it certainly did not happen under Gingrich or GW Bush. So what are we romantically fantasizing about here? What are the politically feasible real possibilities? Cut out the mortgage deduction? gut social security and medicare. Non starter. Political suicide. But maybe at the state level sincere republicans serious about implimenting their ideas might just work… maybe if the Republican party actually believed in federalism rather than just postured…….

    I always felt that the transition from communism in russia and the eastern block would have been better as an evolution rather than the revolution we all gloated over. China and vietnam are probably more like what should have happened. Republicans have a radical element that does not seem to show mercy (“if I can do it, why can´t they??!!”) or they succumb to the same practical understanding as the democrats realizing that if they want to be reelected, they need to hand out the pork.

    So this is a chance for republicans to do a conservative revolution at the state level that does not sacrifice those who need to be weaned off of govt support on the altar of abstract principle but that yet would have a principled vector rather than a merely situational reactive vector.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Bike @ 4

    Don´t read me wrong. the shock of californians is one for both liberals and conservatives alike. the only real diff between republicans and democrats is that dems are tax and borrow and spend and republicans are borrow and spend. which is worse?

    And I agree that our economy, at least, would work better if we shrank government. This did not happen under Reagan. It might have happened under Goldwater. it certainly did not happen under Gingrich or GW Bush. So what are we romantically fantasizing about here? What are the politically feasible real possibilities? Cut out the mortgage deduction? gut social security and medicare. Non starter. Political suicide. But maybe at the state level sincere republicans serious about implimenting their ideas might just work… maybe if the Republican party actually believed in federalism rather than just postured…….

    I always felt that the transition from communism in russia and the eastern block would have been better as an evolution rather than the revolution we all gloated over. China and vietnam are probably more like what should have happened. Republicans have a radical element that does not seem to show mercy (“if I can do it, why can´t they??!!”) or they succumb to the same practical understanding as the democrats realizing that if they want to be reelected, they need to hand out the pork.

    So this is a chance for republicans to do a conservative revolution at the state level that does not sacrifice those who need to be weaned off of govt support on the altar of abstract principle but that yet would have a principled vector rather than a merely situational reactive vector.

  • Tom Hering

    “But would Americans have the principles to oppose measures that might seem to help them economically but that would be wrong?”

    Most Americans are not ideological. “Center right” is just a pollsters’ label for a certain mix of attitudes. Most Americans vote their wallets, and feel that government exists primarily to do those things that put bread on their tables – as well as those things that stop others from taking that same bread. I don’t fault my fellow citizens for failing to consider all the implications of every policy. That’s not their job. Their jobs are their job – if they have a job these days.

  • Tom Hering

    “But would Americans have the principles to oppose measures that might seem to help them economically but that would be wrong?”

    Most Americans are not ideological. “Center right” is just a pollsters’ label for a certain mix of attitudes. Most Americans vote their wallets, and feel that government exists primarily to do those things that put bread on their tables – as well as those things that stop others from taking that same bread. I don’t fault my fellow citizens for failing to consider all the implications of every policy. That’s not their job. Their jobs are their job – if they have a job these days.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom @ 6

    here here. We are, at least formally, a republic and not a democracy. we vote and then we should let those we vote for do their vocation, not meddle in what they do, and then focus on our own until the next elections.

    We close ranks and pray for who is elected especially if we did not vote for them. We promptly remove the bumper stickers for whom we voted for the day after the election. My parents (George McGovern unionized democrats) taught me to do this symbolic gesture. They were absolutely right in that.

    And then we focus on our own vocations .

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom @ 6

    here here. We are, at least formally, a republic and not a democracy. we vote and then we should let those we vote for do their vocation, not meddle in what they do, and then focus on our own until the next elections.

    We close ranks and pray for who is elected especially if we did not vote for them. We promptly remove the bumper stickers for whom we voted for the day after the election. My parents (George McGovern unionized democrats) taught me to do this symbolic gesture. They were absolutely right in that.

    And then we focus on our own vocations .

  • Tom Hering

    Just trying to keep a Lutheran perspective, Frank. The Prince and the loaf of bread; the citizens and their primary vocations. Also trying to be liberal populist. :-)

  • Tom Hering

    Just trying to keep a Lutheran perspective, Frank. The Prince and the loaf of bread; the citizens and their primary vocations. Also trying to be liberal populist. :-)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Luther in his sermon that is the basis for The Formula of Concord, art VI “The [Lutheran] Third Use of the Law”:

    Matthew 9:1 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing [1] their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men. 9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.”

    And now Luther says about this…

    “Belief is alone what makes a Believer. What makes a Believer a Christian is alone faith that he is right with God without having to do anything at all. Faith Alone.

    The theme of this Gospel reading is a great and important article of faith. This article is called “The Forgiveness of Sins”.

    Undestanding this one article correctly is the art that alone makes one a Christian. It is his most difficult, important and all consuming lifelong task. He will never have time to find something new, higher or better to learn. It will make a Christian honest and give him eternal life.

    It is necessary then, to teach this article diligently and relentlessly in the Christian church, so we can learn to understand this article clearly, and distinguish it clearly from what it is not.

    But to understand this article that alone makes one a Christian, and not lose it, we must know something else as well. We must know that there are two kinds of true or God pleasing righteousness or two powers. We must also then learn how to skillfully tell the difference between the two.

    There is a righteousness that is here on earth. This righteousness is willed and ordered by God and is included in the second table of the ten commandments. This is called “man´s righteousness” or “the world´s righteousness”. The only purpose of this righteousness is to help us live together and enjoy the gifts God gives us.

    It is God´s desire that our present life be kept under restraint, and lived in peace, tranquility and harmony. God here wants each person to attend to his own affairs and not interfere with the business, property or person of anyone else. Because God really wants this, He has even added a blessing in Leviticus 18:5: “Which if a man do, he shall live in them” which means that whoever men see is honest, will enjoy a good and long life.

    Now on the other hand, if men are not willing to voluntarily practice being righteous, God sends dictatorships, armed police and brute force to restrain and check those who refuse to be righteous. Where even this is not enough and government can no longer restrain anyone, then God sends famine, war and other terrible things, to subvert the government and destroy evil men. This has happened to the Jews, Greeks and Romans.

    From all this, we can learn God´s Will: earthly righteousness is to be practiced and maintained. We can also know that God will provide what is necessary to make this happen. If it does not happen, God will take it away and instead destroy everything. What this all should tell us is that God is very serious about earthly righteousness!

    This is the entire short sum and substance of this righteousness on earth.

    So it is necessary to encourage and urge everyone to voluntarily be diligent and even zealous in the exercise of this earthly and outward righteousness rather than having him be driven to it by force and punishment.

    This encouragement looks like setting out what is nicely summarized in the second table of the 10 commandments and then applying it in the context of the all the various relationships one finds himself in in his life. This includes every earthly responsibility, duty, role, profession, trade, career, occupation, job, vocation, work, or task, in the context of family, friends, work, and larger society, however great or seemingly trivial. We can be confident that God himself has ordered and appointed these things.

    What we do with these relationships, our vocations, are to be respected and highly honored. We should find pleasure in them and be happy to do what is required on the different spheres of life. For example when we are told to honor our mother and father, every child, employee, employer, citizen and whoever should feel joy in this and have no greater treasure on earth. It should feel like heaven to do this.

    This should be taught in this way for the one purpose of assuring everyone without any doubt at all: Any human being, of any faith, should be able to say: “now I know that such a work life or position is right and proper and should have full assurance that God is really and truly pleased with it.” If I am Christian, I further have his word and command as a sure witness, which never deceives of fails me.

    [Earthly Righteousness is only visible works. This means it excludes faith and Christ. It has rewards here on earth. It also ends with this life. Precisely to let faith be alone in the Heavenly Kingdom, we let works be alone in the Earthly Kingdom.]

    But when your conscience rests on this decision that you know your works please God, don´t let this in anyway become an earthly “gospel”. We owe this assurance alone to Jesus who alone is the Gospel. We should delight in this [other Righteousness] and reverence it. We do this even if it is useless to us except that it quiets our conscience and in what relationship we stand to God.”

    http://www.thirduse.com/?p=10

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Luther in his sermon that is the basis for The Formula of Concord, art VI “The [Lutheran] Third Use of the Law”:

    Matthew 9:1 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing [1] their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men. 9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.”

    And now Luther says about this…

    “Belief is alone what makes a Believer. What makes a Believer a Christian is alone faith that he is right with God without having to do anything at all. Faith Alone.

    The theme of this Gospel reading is a great and important article of faith. This article is called “The Forgiveness of Sins”.

    Undestanding this one article correctly is the art that alone makes one a Christian. It is his most difficult, important and all consuming lifelong task. He will never have time to find something new, higher or better to learn. It will make a Christian honest and give him eternal life.

    It is necessary then, to teach this article diligently and relentlessly in the Christian church, so we can learn to understand this article clearly, and distinguish it clearly from what it is not.

    But to understand this article that alone makes one a Christian, and not lose it, we must know something else as well. We must know that there are two kinds of true or God pleasing righteousness or two powers. We must also then learn how to skillfully tell the difference between the two.

    There is a righteousness that is here on earth. This righteousness is willed and ordered by God and is included in the second table of the ten commandments. This is called “man´s righteousness” or “the world´s righteousness”. The only purpose of this righteousness is to help us live together and enjoy the gifts God gives us.

    It is God´s desire that our present life be kept under restraint, and lived in peace, tranquility and harmony. God here wants each person to attend to his own affairs and not interfere with the business, property or person of anyone else. Because God really wants this, He has even added a blessing in Leviticus 18:5: “Which if a man do, he shall live in them” which means that whoever men see is honest, will enjoy a good and long life.

    Now on the other hand, if men are not willing to voluntarily practice being righteous, God sends dictatorships, armed police and brute force to restrain and check those who refuse to be righteous. Where even this is not enough and government can no longer restrain anyone, then God sends famine, war and other terrible things, to subvert the government and destroy evil men. This has happened to the Jews, Greeks and Romans.

    From all this, we can learn God´s Will: earthly righteousness is to be practiced and maintained. We can also know that God will provide what is necessary to make this happen. If it does not happen, God will take it away and instead destroy everything. What this all should tell us is that God is very serious about earthly righteousness!

    This is the entire short sum and substance of this righteousness on earth.

    So it is necessary to encourage and urge everyone to voluntarily be diligent and even zealous in the exercise of this earthly and outward righteousness rather than having him be driven to it by force and punishment.

    This encouragement looks like setting out what is nicely summarized in the second table of the 10 commandments and then applying it in the context of the all the various relationships one finds himself in in his life. This includes every earthly responsibility, duty, role, profession, trade, career, occupation, job, vocation, work, or task, in the context of family, friends, work, and larger society, however great or seemingly trivial. We can be confident that God himself has ordered and appointed these things.

    What we do with these relationships, our vocations, are to be respected and highly honored. We should find pleasure in them and be happy to do what is required on the different spheres of life. For example when we are told to honor our mother and father, every child, employee, employer, citizen and whoever should feel joy in this and have no greater treasure on earth. It should feel like heaven to do this.

    This should be taught in this way for the one purpose of assuring everyone without any doubt at all: Any human being, of any faith, should be able to say: “now I know that such a work life or position is right and proper and should have full assurance that God is really and truly pleased with it.” If I am Christian, I further have his word and command as a sure witness, which never deceives of fails me.

    [Earthly Righteousness is only visible works. This means it excludes faith and Christ. It has rewards here on earth. It also ends with this life. Precisely to let faith be alone in the Heavenly Kingdom, we let works be alone in the Earthly Kingdom.]

    But when your conscience rests on this decision that you know your works please God, don´t let this in anyway become an earthly “gospel”. We owe this assurance alone to Jesus who alone is the Gospel. We should delight in this [other Righteousness] and reverence it. We do this even if it is useless to us except that it quiets our conscience and in what relationship we stand to God.”

    http://www.thirduse.com/?p=10

  • DonS

    Michael Gerson again……the great Guru of our age. What would we do without his marvelous insight?

    Politics is cyclical. We are tacking right presently because the left, when it gained power in 2006-08, assumed that it had a mandate to go hard left, even though they run political campaigns pretending to be conservative!

    The real problem the left has is that it is an amalgam of special interests, and those interests are starting to collide with one another. Government employees have become the kings, rather than the serfs, and they and their rich benefits are sucking all of the oxygen out of the room. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time for doctrinaire leftists to take government union money to gain political power, but now they are stuck with them. If you are paying rich salaries, pensions, and health care to government employees and retirees, guess what? There isn’t enough money left for all of the social programs you want to enact or pay for. That is the problem they face today, and even if they take 100% of the income of the “rich” there won’t be enough. A hard fact of life, that.

    At this point, as Frank says, I am making popcorn, prepared to watch my blue state, California, default on its obligations. It won’t be pretty, but I don’t see any other option for our far left government, which refuses to even consider meaningful reform.

  • DonS

    Michael Gerson again……the great Guru of our age. What would we do without his marvelous insight?

    Politics is cyclical. We are tacking right presently because the left, when it gained power in 2006-08, assumed that it had a mandate to go hard left, even though they run political campaigns pretending to be conservative!

    The real problem the left has is that it is an amalgam of special interests, and those interests are starting to collide with one another. Government employees have become the kings, rather than the serfs, and they and their rich benefits are sucking all of the oxygen out of the room. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time for doctrinaire leftists to take government union money to gain political power, but now they are stuck with them. If you are paying rich salaries, pensions, and health care to government employees and retirees, guess what? There isn’t enough money left for all of the social programs you want to enact or pay for. That is the problem they face today, and even if they take 100% of the income of the “rich” there won’t be enough. A hard fact of life, that.

    At this point, as Frank says, I am making popcorn, prepared to watch my blue state, California, default on its obligations. It won’t be pretty, but I don’t see any other option for our far left government, which refuses to even consider meaningful reform.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Don s @10

    I think for california it is worse and more complex that you state.

    California incarcerates an enormous percentage of their population. They have 30 + state prisons, and a huge county jail in Los Angeles that features a floor just for gays. The prisons get located in remote cities and quickly become the main staple of the local economy. If you look at a map, the state is almost entirely red except for the areas around los angeles and san francisco.

    So who is it that votes for bond issues to build more prisons, for tough on crime laws, and for the extremely powerful prison guard union? Yup. 90+ % Republicans. Both voters and in the legislature. And just enough democrats to tip the scale. It is one of the few growth industries left in California.

    California was also in the vanguard of the “law and order” 3 strikes law and mandatory sentencing. And they beefed up parole operations so that now about a third of the prison population are there because they are parole violators. One very typical case I know went to state prison for possession of a crack pipe in fresno. His family all lives in Los Angeles. When he got out on parole he was released in Fresno. It was a violation when he went to Los Angeles to live with his family. He had 200 in “gate money” on his release which he promptly used to buy more crack. There is little attempt at drug rehab in state prisons. Ah yes. And he got aids in prison because sex is forbidden there, so it would be “wrong” for the authorities to issue condoms as that would “condone” that illegal activity there…

    Now one would think that the logical step would be to reform the parole system and push for drug rehab and vocational training as a cost saving move at a minimum and also to reduce the human suffering of the incarcerated and their families and the rending of the social fabric this all represents. But these men are out of sight and out of mind except in the California and overwhelmingly republican heartland. Far away from the path of comfortable smug hug-a-tree Liberals in LA and SF, and safely in the warm embrace of a differently smug and comfortable path of god$-fearing$ conservatives.

    Don we are ALL complicit. If the republicans were not, change would have happened long ago. Lots of posturing on both sides of the aisle.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Don s @10

    I think for california it is worse and more complex that you state.

    California incarcerates an enormous percentage of their population. They have 30 + state prisons, and a huge county jail in Los Angeles that features a floor just for gays. The prisons get located in remote cities and quickly become the main staple of the local economy. If you look at a map, the state is almost entirely red except for the areas around los angeles and san francisco.

    So who is it that votes for bond issues to build more prisons, for tough on crime laws, and for the extremely powerful prison guard union? Yup. 90+ % Republicans. Both voters and in the legislature. And just enough democrats to tip the scale. It is one of the few growth industries left in California.

    California was also in the vanguard of the “law and order” 3 strikes law and mandatory sentencing. And they beefed up parole operations so that now about a third of the prison population are there because they are parole violators. One very typical case I know went to state prison for possession of a crack pipe in fresno. His family all lives in Los Angeles. When he got out on parole he was released in Fresno. It was a violation when he went to Los Angeles to live with his family. He had 200 in “gate money” on his release which he promptly used to buy more crack. There is little attempt at drug rehab in state prisons. Ah yes. And he got aids in prison because sex is forbidden there, so it would be “wrong” for the authorities to issue condoms as that would “condone” that illegal activity there…

    Now one would think that the logical step would be to reform the parole system and push for drug rehab and vocational training as a cost saving move at a minimum and also to reduce the human suffering of the incarcerated and their families and the rending of the social fabric this all represents. But these men are out of sight and out of mind except in the California and overwhelmingly republican heartland. Far away from the path of comfortable smug hug-a-tree Liberals in LA and SF, and safely in the warm embrace of a differently smug and comfortable path of god$-fearing$ conservatives.

    Don we are ALL complicit. If the republicans were not, change would have happened long ago. Lots of posturing on both sides of the aisle.

  • Grace

    It has been discussed many times on this blog – California’s financial crisis is due also to illegal immigrants. You would have to live here to understand the financial burden we face.

    This is JUST for Los Angeles County -

    Los Angeles Times
    L.A. County welfare to children of illegal immigrants grows

    Payments to U.S.-born children rose to $52 million in July, prompting calls for policy changes

    September 05, 2010|By Teresa Watanabe, Los Angeles Times

    Welfare payments to children of illegal immigrants in Los Angeles County increased in July to $52 million, prompting renewed calls from one county supervisor to rein in public benefits to such families.

    The payments, made to illegal immigrants for their U.S. citizen children, included $30 million in food stamps and $22 million from the CalWorks welfare program, according to county figures released Friday by Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.

    Another excerpt -

    “Last year, welfare and food stamp issuances totaled nearly $570 million, and the amount is projected to exceed $600 million this year. In addition, county taxpayers spend $550 million in public safety — mostly for jail costs — and nearly $500 million for healthcare for illegal immigrants, Antonovich said.”

    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/05/local/la-me-illegal-welfare-20100906

  • Grace

    It has been discussed many times on this blog – California’s financial crisis is due also to illegal immigrants. You would have to live here to understand the financial burden we face.

    This is JUST for Los Angeles County -

    Los Angeles Times
    L.A. County welfare to children of illegal immigrants grows

    Payments to U.S.-born children rose to $52 million in July, prompting calls for policy changes

    September 05, 2010|By Teresa Watanabe, Los Angeles Times

    Welfare payments to children of illegal immigrants in Los Angeles County increased in July to $52 million, prompting renewed calls from one county supervisor to rein in public benefits to such families.

    The payments, made to illegal immigrants for their U.S. citizen children, included $30 million in food stamps and $22 million from the CalWorks welfare program, according to county figures released Friday by Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.

    Another excerpt -

    “Last year, welfare and food stamp issuances totaled nearly $570 million, and the amount is projected to exceed $600 million this year. In addition, county taxpayers spend $550 million in public safety — mostly for jail costs — and nearly $500 million for healthcare for illegal immigrants, Antonovich said.”

    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/05/local/la-me-illegal-welfare-20100906

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 12

    Can you tell us how the children of illegal immigrants get money from the cal works program that pays for vocational training for adults only? I am not getting that part.

    I agree with the end of the article where it suggests that the real solution is enforcement. Why is it that we are not cracking down hard on the employers of undocumented immigrants by sending in an auditor to check their employment records? It is alot cheaper and far more effective than a raid that arrests workers. This has only been done for the past two years. why IS that?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 12

    Can you tell us how the children of illegal immigrants get money from the cal works program that pays for vocational training for adults only? I am not getting that part.

    I agree with the end of the article where it suggests that the real solution is enforcement. Why is it that we are not cracking down hard on the employers of undocumented immigrants by sending in an auditor to check their employment records? It is alot cheaper and far more effective than a raid that arrests workers. This has only been done for the past two years. why IS that?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Getting back to the theme of this post… heck liberals are ALWAYS in crisis!

    1) since they are liberal they let all the rif-raff into their big tent. no doctrinal purity test to bother with like the republicans pretend to have… and

    2) THEY are the problem. For republicans, the problem is always NIMBY. Their lawn is perfectly manicured and crabgrass killed. “All-american” “heartland” and “boy-next-door” do that were part of the Palin mantra don´t conjure up images of the permanenty sun-tanned if u follow me….

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Getting back to the theme of this post… heck liberals are ALWAYS in crisis!

    1) since they are liberal they let all the rif-raff into their big tent. no doctrinal purity test to bother with like the republicans pretend to have… and

    2) THEY are the problem. For republicans, the problem is always NIMBY. Their lawn is perfectly manicured and crabgrass killed. “All-american” “heartland” and “boy-next-door” do that were part of the Palin mantra don´t conjure up images of the permanenty sun-tanned if u follow me….

  • trotk

    Grace, the total spent last year on the three issues listed in the article (1.72 billion) constitutes 1.9% of California’s spending in 2009-2010. The numbers sound large, but they are hardly the real issue.

    See:

    http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf

  • trotk

    Grace, the total spent last year on the three issues listed in the article (1.72 billion) constitutes 1.9% of California’s spending in 2009-2010. The numbers sound large, but they are hardly the real issue.

    See:

    http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf

  • Grace

    fws,

    All illegal aliens need to be sent back over the border – in addition, those who are born to illegal aliens in this country should not be given citizenship. Solving the problem isn’t checking, and re-checking, the cost is just another way of stalling the solution – but of course Jerry Brown could argue that those who are checkers would offer employement – therefore the merry-go-round effect!

  • Grace

    fws,

    All illegal aliens need to be sent back over the border – in addition, those who are born to illegal aliens in this country should not be given citizenship. Solving the problem isn’t checking, and re-checking, the cost is just another way of stalling the solution – but of course Jerry Brown could argue that those who are checkers would offer employement – therefore the merry-go-round effect!

  • trotk

    Grace, I hope that you aren’t begrudging the food stamps. Certainly the survival of these children is more important than the ideological debate about how we handle immigration/

  • trotk

    Grace, I hope that you aren’t begrudging the food stamps. Certainly the survival of these children is more important than the ideological debate about how we handle immigration/

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 16

    I get what you are saying. The feds do have a right and duty to secure the integrity of our borders. At the same time wouldn´t you agree that it would be really smart and probably cheaper to enforce employment laws by sending in a single auditor for a few days than to build a 2000+ massive fence, and then have 10´s of thousands of troops watching the fence etc etc etc?

    If there is no chance of undocumented workers finding work, then eventually they will stop coming. Agreed? My suggested approach may not score as many political points in being visible and dramatic, but over time couldn´t it maybe be a kinder solution. After all then you don´t have other americans accusing you of not treating the undocumented as human beings… they would simply go back home or not bother to come here looking for work. It is work they come here for.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 16

    I get what you are saying. The feds do have a right and duty to secure the integrity of our borders. At the same time wouldn´t you agree that it would be really smart and probably cheaper to enforce employment laws by sending in a single auditor for a few days than to build a 2000+ massive fence, and then have 10´s of thousands of troops watching the fence etc etc etc?

    If there is no chance of undocumented workers finding work, then eventually they will stop coming. Agreed? My suggested approach may not score as many political points in being visible and dramatic, but over time couldn´t it maybe be a kinder solution. After all then you don´t have other americans accusing you of not treating the undocumented as human beings… they would simply go back home or not bother to come here looking for work. It is work they come here for.

  • DonS

    FWS @ 11 (glad you’re back to “s” instead of “w” — I didn’t get the “w”) — No, your information is dated and distorted. Here is a Stanford University report from 2006 on the political influence of the California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA): http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/centers/scjc/workingpapers/BCarassco-wp4_06.pdf

    It will show you that the CCPOA has fallen into line with the other government employee unions in CA to oppose budget reform and perpetuate outsized compensation and benefits for government employees. Its contributions now overwhelmingly go to the Democrats, even much more sharply since 2006. This union was instrumental in killing Schwarzenegger’s attempts at budget reform in 2005. Republicans, basically irrelevant in California’s politics, cannot be held accountable for the utter failure of governing Democrats to do what’s best for their citizens and constituents by taking necessary reform measures to restore government employment to the historic concept of civil service, rather than greedmongers who are crowding out more legitimate government services and spending priorities. Until the unions are brought under control (and by that I mean broken), there is no hope for California or any other blue state to get its budget under control, no matter how much it raises taxes.

    So, bottom line, you have identified one of many government unions which are contributing to the ultimate Democratic crack-up in California. We are beginning to see the fruits of this — the San Francisco public defender has publicly stated that he sees the government unions for the greedbags they are, and laments how much they steal from the truly poor.

    As for illegals, sure they are a problem, because we refuse to withhold free public benefits from them based on their status. If the federal government wants an open borders policy, it should compensate the border states for the incursion which they are enduring. But, relative to the damage the government unions are doing, the cost of illegal immigration is relatively small.

  • DonS

    FWS @ 11 (glad you’re back to “s” instead of “w” — I didn’t get the “w”) — No, your information is dated and distorted. Here is a Stanford University report from 2006 on the political influence of the California Correctional Peace Officers Association (CCPOA): http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/centers/scjc/workingpapers/BCarassco-wp4_06.pdf

    It will show you that the CCPOA has fallen into line with the other government employee unions in CA to oppose budget reform and perpetuate outsized compensation and benefits for government employees. Its contributions now overwhelmingly go to the Democrats, even much more sharply since 2006. This union was instrumental in killing Schwarzenegger’s attempts at budget reform in 2005. Republicans, basically irrelevant in California’s politics, cannot be held accountable for the utter failure of governing Democrats to do what’s best for their citizens and constituents by taking necessary reform measures to restore government employment to the historic concept of civil service, rather than greedmongers who are crowding out more legitimate government services and spending priorities. Until the unions are brought under control (and by that I mean broken), there is no hope for California or any other blue state to get its budget under control, no matter how much it raises taxes.

    So, bottom line, you have identified one of many government unions which are contributing to the ultimate Democratic crack-up in California. We are beginning to see the fruits of this — the San Francisco public defender has publicly stated that he sees the government unions for the greedbags they are, and laments how much they steal from the truly poor.

    As for illegals, sure they are a problem, because we refuse to withhold free public benefits from them based on their status. If the federal government wants an open borders policy, it should compensate the border states for the incursion which they are enduring. But, relative to the damage the government unions are doing, the cost of illegal immigration is relatively small.

  • Grace

    fws

    At the same time wouldn´t you agree that it would be really smart and probably cheaper to enforce employment laws by sending in a single auditor for a few days than to build a 2000+ massive fence, and then have 10´s of thousands of troops watching the fence etc etc etc?

    No, I don’t agree – A fence will stop most illegal aliens from crossing – in the long haul, it is cost efficient.

    If there is no chance of undocumented workers finding work, then eventually they will stop coming. Agreed? My suggested approach may not score as many political points in being visible and dramatic, but over time couldn´t it maybe be a kinder solution. After all then you don´t have other americans accusing you of not treating the undocumented as human beings… they would simply go back home or not bother to come here looking for work. It is work they come here for.

    No, I don’t agree – If people want to be treated well, they should give serious thought to keeping the laws of the USA. If they cannot live by the law, they will not be treated as the rest of those who live here, that would preclude setting foot on American soil. Do not assume that they all come here for work, they come here, bringing drugs. The drug traffic south of the border to the U.S. is staggering. It is totally naïve to think they all come here for work.

    Another figure: $42,110,264,705 right now as I post has been sent straight back to Mexico since January 2006.

  • Grace

    fws

    At the same time wouldn´t you agree that it would be really smart and probably cheaper to enforce employment laws by sending in a single auditor for a few days than to build a 2000+ massive fence, and then have 10´s of thousands of troops watching the fence etc etc etc?

    No, I don’t agree – A fence will stop most illegal aliens from crossing – in the long haul, it is cost efficient.

    If there is no chance of undocumented workers finding work, then eventually they will stop coming. Agreed? My suggested approach may not score as many political points in being visible and dramatic, but over time couldn´t it maybe be a kinder solution. After all then you don´t have other americans accusing you of not treating the undocumented as human beings… they would simply go back home or not bother to come here looking for work. It is work they come here for.

    No, I don’t agree – If people want to be treated well, they should give serious thought to keeping the laws of the USA. If they cannot live by the law, they will not be treated as the rest of those who live here, that would preclude setting foot on American soil. Do not assume that they all come here for work, they come here, bringing drugs. The drug traffic south of the border to the U.S. is staggering. It is totally naïve to think they all come here for work.

    Another figure: $42,110,264,705 right now as I post has been sent straight back to Mexico since January 2006.

  • Grace

    $335,381,059,240 has been sent to Latin America since 2001 -

    Illegal aliens aren’t interested in paying their own way, buying health insurance, etc., They break the law, and take the free ride – and we the people of this country either don’t see it, or we choose to play the soci@lism card…. and then there are those of us who continue to show the slide this country is taking.

  • Grace

    $335,381,059,240 has been sent to Latin America since 2001 -

    Illegal aliens aren’t interested in paying their own way, buying health insurance, etc., They break the law, and take the free ride – and we the people of this country either don’t see it, or we choose to play the soci@lism card…. and then there are those of us who continue to show the slide this country is taking.

  • trotk

    Grace, by talking about how much money is sent home, you are avoiding responding to the real argument you raised:

    The total spent last year on the three issues listed in the article (1.72 billion) constitutes 1.9% of California’s spending in 2009-2010. The numbers sound large, but they are hardly the real issue.

    See:

    http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf

  • trotk

    Grace, by talking about how much money is sent home, you are avoiding responding to the real argument you raised:

    The total spent last year on the three issues listed in the article (1.72 billion) constitutes 1.9% of California’s spending in 2009-2010. The numbers sound large, but they are hardly the real issue.

    See:

    http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/SummaryCharts.pdf

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 20

    What are your thoughts on employers who are breaking the law by hiring undocumented immigrants?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 20

    What are your thoughts on employers who are breaking the law by hiring undocumented immigrants?

  • Grace

    fws – 23

    Every employer who hires a KNOWN illegal alien should be fined. I would suggest the amount of money paid to the illegal for the duration of their employment, be the amount of the fine.

    Don’t forget, many illegals buy documentation – anyone who is unable to communicate in English fluently should be required to give more proof of their lawful right to be in this country, and receive employment.

    I called Nordstrom’s last week to see if what I wanted had come in. The individual answering the phone could barely speak English, she couldn’t understand me, and I could not understand her. (this wasn’t the first time) I finally called the manager of Nordstrom,…. their excuse – “we want diversity” – my answer was “then it won’t bother you when your stores make less money then they are now.” The manager couldn’t answer, …. I then stated, “there are two other competitors you have to deal with, they don’t hire people who cannot speak English.” – -

  • Grace

    fws – 23

    Every employer who hires a KNOWN illegal alien should be fined. I would suggest the amount of money paid to the illegal for the duration of their employment, be the amount of the fine.

    Don’t forget, many illegals buy documentation – anyone who is unable to communicate in English fluently should be required to give more proof of their lawful right to be in this country, and receive employment.

    I called Nordstrom’s last week to see if what I wanted had come in. The individual answering the phone could barely speak English, she couldn’t understand me, and I could not understand her. (this wasn’t the first time) I finally called the manager of Nordstrom,…. their excuse – “we want diversity” – my answer was “then it won’t bother you when your stores make less money then they are now.” The manager couldn’t answer, …. I then stated, “there are two other competitors you have to deal with, they don’t hire people who cannot speak English.” – -

  • kerner

    Grace@ 24:

    Your position is what I mean when I say that the so-called “conservative” position on immigration is not conservative at all.

    You want to impose substantial fines on American businesses for hiring the most productive workers they can find. This is so anti-free market that it isn’t even funny. Working should NEVER be a punishable offense. Hiring someone should NEVER be a punishable offense.

    The idea that you should be able to punish an American business because you don’t like the people they hire is such a statist/socialist position that you would never accept it in any other context.

    Back in the 1960′s, my late father used to say that not everybody who talked conservative was actually conservative. He used to say that there were a lot of racist socialists out there. I saw example of what he was talking about then, and it looks like he is still correct.

  • kerner

    Grace@ 24:

    Your position is what I mean when I say that the so-called “conservative” position on immigration is not conservative at all.

    You want to impose substantial fines on American businesses for hiring the most productive workers they can find. This is so anti-free market that it isn’t even funny. Working should NEVER be a punishable offense. Hiring someone should NEVER be a punishable offense.

    The idea that you should be able to punish an American business because you don’t like the people they hire is such a statist/socialist position that you would never accept it in any other context.

    Back in the 1960′s, my late father used to say that not everybody who talked conservative was actually conservative. He used to say that there were a lot of racist socialists out there. I saw example of what he was talking about then, and it looks like he is still correct.

  • kerner

    Grace @ 24:

    Your position is a prime example of what I say that the “conservative” position on immigration isn’t really conservative.

    You want to impose substantial fines on American businesses for hiring the most productive workers they can find. That is such a statist/soci@list idea it isn’t even funny, and it is totally anti-free market.

    It should NEVER be a punishable offense for an adult to work. It should NEVER be a punishable offense to hire an adult to do a job. You would never go along with such a thing in any other context. But you are willing to throw other conservative principles out the window for this.

    My late father, back in the 1960′s, used to tell me that not everybody who talked the conservative talk was actually conservative. He said that there were a lot of racist soci@lists out there. I saw examples of what he was talking about back then, and he’s still correct today.

    (sorry if this turns out to be a duplicate post. I used the word “soci@list” with an “a” the first time, and it got lost in the spam catcher)

  • kerner

    Grace @ 24:

    Your position is a prime example of what I say that the “conservative” position on immigration isn’t really conservative.

    You want to impose substantial fines on American businesses for hiring the most productive workers they can find. That is such a statist/soci@list idea it isn’t even funny, and it is totally anti-free market.

    It should NEVER be a punishable offense for an adult to work. It should NEVER be a punishable offense to hire an adult to do a job. You would never go along with such a thing in any other context. But you are willing to throw other conservative principles out the window for this.

    My late father, back in the 1960′s, used to tell me that not everybody who talked the conservative talk was actually conservative. He said that there were a lot of racist soci@lists out there. I saw examples of what he was talking about back then, and he’s still correct today.

    (sorry if this turns out to be a duplicate post. I used the word “soci@list” with an “a” the first time, and it got lost in the spam catcher)

  • Porcell

    On Veith’s basic point, the crisis of liberalism, the truth is that it is indeed in crisis, mainly due to the hard left that took over the Democratic party in the late sixties. Essentially, over time these radical liberals have advocated a weak and apologetic foreign policy along with a redistributionist economic policy that both disparages free enterprise and attempts to tax it to the hilt, aiming toward a failed European welfare state.

    Carter was the last Democrat who honestly stated liberal views of the left. Both Clinton and Obama disguised their liberal views, though Clinton, after getting clobbered in 1994 due to HillaryCare, effectively moved to the center right, including reforming welfare and balancing the budget. We shall see whether Obama has the wit to move to the center.

    Eisenhower understood the conservative tendency of the nation and spoke candidly of it. Nixon took take advantage of this tendency, though he blew it with the Watergate episode. Reagan was a true conservative; however, he wasn’t- any more than Eisenhower or the Bushes- able to seriously reduce the bloated federal budget. Some moderate conservatives at the state level, including Daniels, Christie, and McDonnell have effectively reduced state budgets. Weld in Massachusetts reformed education, so that it leads the nation in public education.

    At this point on balance the nation is looking for a sensible conservative leader who can effectively deal with the monstrous and unsustainable federal political class along with its intrusion in the economy and unsustainable government fiscal policy. Someone like a Mitch Daniels, Chris Christie, or, best, Paul Ryan will sooner or later come along and accomplish this.

    The liberals, of course, are in denial about all of this and, like Tom Hering, see and dream of present matters as a temporary political correction.

  • Porcell

    On Veith’s basic point, the crisis of liberalism, the truth is that it is indeed in crisis, mainly due to the hard left that took over the Democratic party in the late sixties. Essentially, over time these radical liberals have advocated a weak and apologetic foreign policy along with a redistributionist economic policy that both disparages free enterprise and attempts to tax it to the hilt, aiming toward a failed European welfare state.

    Carter was the last Democrat who honestly stated liberal views of the left. Both Clinton and Obama disguised their liberal views, though Clinton, after getting clobbered in 1994 due to HillaryCare, effectively moved to the center right, including reforming welfare and balancing the budget. We shall see whether Obama has the wit to move to the center.

    Eisenhower understood the conservative tendency of the nation and spoke candidly of it. Nixon took take advantage of this tendency, though he blew it with the Watergate episode. Reagan was a true conservative; however, he wasn’t- any more than Eisenhower or the Bushes- able to seriously reduce the bloated federal budget. Some moderate conservatives at the state level, including Daniels, Christie, and McDonnell have effectively reduced state budgets. Weld in Massachusetts reformed education, so that it leads the nation in public education.

    At this point on balance the nation is looking for a sensible conservative leader who can effectively deal with the monstrous and unsustainable federal political class along with its intrusion in the economy and unsustainable government fiscal policy. Someone like a Mitch Daniels, Chris Christie, or, best, Paul Ryan will sooner or later come along and accomplish this.

    The liberals, of course, are in denial about all of this and, like Tom Hering, see and dream of present matters as a temporary political correction.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 25

    As for your post above -

    To you, it makes no difference that these people (illegal aliens) break the laws of our country, or that our prisons are full of them.

    Our citizens deserve the jobs illegals now have. Unemployment is at 99 weeks, that’s just a shade less than two years. We cannot afford it.

    All the sob sister comments, and then throwing in soci@lism – I would add LOL, to the comment, however it is tragic that anyone would advocate an illegal alien as a rightful employee in our country.

    “My late father, back in the 1960′s, used to tell me that not everybody who talked the conservative talk was actually conservative. He said that there were a lot of racist soci@lists out there. I saw examples of what he was talking about back then, and he’s still correct today.”

    That was fifty years ago – living in todays society is no match, nor can it be identified with 5 decades ago. Maybe you and your family don’t give a hoot about laws, the financial situation the U.S. is in, or the liberal garbage many people (even Christians) fall for.

    Here is another taste of of the ‘sob sister’ approach: Maybe you would like to pay the taxes on this one?

    This just in, less than four hours ago.

    In-state tuition for illegal immigrants is preserved with California Supreme Court ruling [Updated]

    November 15, 2010 | 10:16 am

    The California Supreme Court decided unanimously Monday that illegal immigrants may continue to be eligible for in-state tuition rates at the state’s colleges and universities rather than pay the higher rates charged to those who live out of state.

    In a ruling written by Justice Ming W. Chin, one of the panel’s more conservative members, the state high court said a California law that guarantees the lower tuition for students who attend California high schools for at least three years and graduate does not conflict with a federal prohibition on giving illegal immigrants educational benefits based on residency.

    California is one of several states that permit illegal immigrants to take advantage of lower college tuition for students who attend high school and graduate in state. About 25,000 illegal immigrants are estimated to receive in-state tuition rates in California.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/11/undocumented-students.html

    Outrageous!

  • Grace

    Kerner – 25

    As for your post above -

    To you, it makes no difference that these people (illegal aliens) break the laws of our country, or that our prisons are full of them.

    Our citizens deserve the jobs illegals now have. Unemployment is at 99 weeks, that’s just a shade less than two years. We cannot afford it.

    All the sob sister comments, and then throwing in soci@lism – I would add LOL, to the comment, however it is tragic that anyone would advocate an illegal alien as a rightful employee in our country.

    “My late father, back in the 1960′s, used to tell me that not everybody who talked the conservative talk was actually conservative. He said that there were a lot of racist soci@lists out there. I saw examples of what he was talking about back then, and he’s still correct today.”

    That was fifty years ago – living in todays society is no match, nor can it be identified with 5 decades ago. Maybe you and your family don’t give a hoot about laws, the financial situation the U.S. is in, or the liberal garbage many people (even Christians) fall for.

    Here is another taste of of the ‘sob sister’ approach: Maybe you would like to pay the taxes on this one?

    This just in, less than four hours ago.

    In-state tuition for illegal immigrants is preserved with California Supreme Court ruling [Updated]

    November 15, 2010 | 10:16 am

    The California Supreme Court decided unanimously Monday that illegal immigrants may continue to be eligible for in-state tuition rates at the state’s colleges and universities rather than pay the higher rates charged to those who live out of state.

    In a ruling written by Justice Ming W. Chin, one of the panel’s more conservative members, the state high court said a California law that guarantees the lower tuition for students who attend California high schools for at least three years and graduate does not conflict with a federal prohibition on giving illegal immigrants educational benefits based on residency.

    California is one of several states that permit illegal immigrants to take advantage of lower college tuition for students who attend high school and graduate in state. About 25,000 illegal immigrants are estimated to receive in-state tuition rates in California.

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/11/undocumented-students.html

    Outrageous!

  • Louis

    Grace – the point trotkm was trying to make, is that the whole illegal immigrant contribution to the debt of the State of California is a drop in the bucket. What do you think are the major factors at play?

  • Louis

    Grace – the point trotkm was trying to make, is that the whole illegal immigrant contribution to the debt of the State of California is a drop in the bucket. What do you think are the major factors at play?

  • Grace

    Louis – 28

    Those are very large ‘drops’ when you consider the problem, the scope of those who are in prison – then take into consideration drugs and gangs.

    The people who bring drugs into this country cause untold harm, physical and mental anguish, endless rehab programs, paid by tax dollars, illness that precludes many from ever being able to support themselves. It can be compared to a domino system, in this case it just keeps knocking away. The worst part? – liberals can’t see it, nor can others who do not live in areas most populated by illegal aliens.

  • Grace

    Louis – 28

    Those are very large ‘drops’ when you consider the problem, the scope of those who are in prison – then take into consideration drugs and gangs.

    The people who bring drugs into this country cause untold harm, physical and mental anguish, endless rehab programs, paid by tax dollars, illness that precludes many from ever being able to support themselves. It can be compared to a domino system, in this case it just keeps knocking away. The worst part? – liberals can’t see it, nor can others who do not live in areas most populated by illegal aliens.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace @27

    It is called rule by men not law.

    We want rule of law. We want our Constitutional Republic with a franchise limited to taxpayers and how about a real Senate, not the second house of reps we have now.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace @27

    It is called rule by men not law.

    We want rule of law. We want our Constitutional Republic with a franchise limited to taxpayers and how about a real Senate, not the second house of reps we have now.

  • Grace

    From the NewsMax.com Staff

    Monday, March 27, 2006 11:39 a.m. EST

    Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals

    One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably “hard-working” and “law-abiding” once they get here.
    That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the “law-abiding” claim often isn’t true.

    As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

    “The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California’s prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces.”

    Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: “Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That’s a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population.”

    Another excerpt -

    “Investor’s Business Daily concurs: “Once [illegals] get here, they are 50 percent more likely to be on welfare than citizens.”

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

    Allowing people to stay here, (illegal aliens) dividing tax payer money to those who break the laws of the United States, is nothing short of SOCI@LISM -

  • Grace

    From the NewsMax.com Staff

    Monday, March 27, 2006 11:39 a.m. EST

    Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals

    One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably “hard-working” and “law-abiding” once they get here.
    That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the “law-abiding” claim often isn’t true.

    As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

    “The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California’s prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces.”

    Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: “Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That’s a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population.”

    Another excerpt -

    “Investor’s Business Daily concurs: “Once [illegals] get here, they are 50 percent more likely to be on welfare than citizens.”

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

    Allowing people to stay here, (illegal aliens) dividing tax payer money to those who break the laws of the United States, is nothing short of SOCI@LISM -

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2007/jan/wk2/art03.htm

    “The labor force participation rate of men has been decreasing since the 1950s, having registered 86.4 percent in 1950, 79.7 percent in 1970, 76.4 percent in 1990, and 73.3 percent in 2005.”

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

    Immigrants displace American workers who then are out on unemployment.

    http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/09/3170206/californias-unemployment-fund.html

    Business exploits illegals at the expense of taxpayers and American workers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2007/jan/wk2/art03.htm

    “The labor force participation rate of men has been decreasing since the 1950s, having registered 86.4 percent in 1950, 79.7 percent in 1970, 76.4 percent in 1990, and 73.3 percent in 2005.”

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

    Immigrants displace American workers who then are out on unemployment.

    http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/09/3170206/californias-unemployment-fund.html

    Business exploits illegals at the expense of taxpayers and American workers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2007/jan/wk2/art03.htm

    “The labor force participation rate of men has been decreasing since the 1950s, having registered 86.4 percent in 1950, 79.7 percent in 1970, 76.4 percent in 1990, and 73.3 percent in 2005.”

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2007/jan/wk2/art03.htm

    “The labor force participation rate of men has been decreasing since the 1950s, having registered 86.4 percent in 1950, 79.7 percent in 1970, 76.4 percent in 1990, and 73.3 percent in 2005.”

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/09/3170206/californias-unemployment-fund.html

    Business exploits illegals at the expense of taxpayers and American workers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.sacbee.com/2010/11/09/3170206/californias-unemployment-fund.html

    Business exploits illegals at the expense of taxpayers and American workers.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith, you wrote:

    “For example, what if the government responded to the housing crisis by nationalizing the property of those evil banks and forgiving everyone’s mortgages? Would that not be popular? Yes, this would destroy our whole economic system. But would Americans have the principles to oppose measures that might seem to help them economically but that would be wrong?”

    While the government was able to fundamentally “nationalize” much of the auto industry, such a move on the banking industry to forgive mortgages would IMMEDIATELY render, the savings and stock investments in financial institutions, WORTHLESS. Not to mention NOT ANOTHER PERSONAL OR BUSINESS LOAN WOULD BE MADE by a fundamentally insolvent financial system.

    Instead by cutting government spending and taxes, the government’s (federal and state) can provide the incentives, for the FREE MARKET PLACE to reinvest in America.

    Of course this would require the politicians to stop casting the wealthy Americans as villains since they pay 95% of the tax revenue the governments collect.

    Since my husband is in banking he finds the idea of forgiving mortgages ludicrous.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith, you wrote:

    “For example, what if the government responded to the housing crisis by nationalizing the property of those evil banks and forgiving everyone’s mortgages? Would that not be popular? Yes, this would destroy our whole economic system. But would Americans have the principles to oppose measures that might seem to help them economically but that would be wrong?”

    While the government was able to fundamentally “nationalize” much of the auto industry, such a move on the banking industry to forgive mortgages would IMMEDIATELY render, the savings and stock investments in financial institutions, WORTHLESS. Not to mention NOT ANOTHER PERSONAL OR BUSINESS LOAN WOULD BE MADE by a fundamentally insolvent financial system.

    Instead by cutting government spending and taxes, the government’s (federal and state) can provide the incentives, for the FREE MARKET PLACE to reinvest in America.

    Of course this would require the politicians to stop casting the wealthy Americans as villains since they pay 95% of the tax revenue the governments collect.

    Since my husband is in banking he finds the idea of forgiving mortgages ludicrous.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah? By what sob sister soci@list rationale do you figure that someone “deserves” a job? What about the drugged up, slacker, criminal types that were born in America? Do they “deserve” jobs so much that American companies should be forced to hire them when hard working people who won’t cheat their employers are available? Nobody owns a job in this country; we all have to compete for them.

    I repeat, it should NEVER be against the law to hire someone to do a job. The fact that you are now willing to live with a system that punishes people for working and businesses for hiring just goes to show that YOU are willing to accept sob sister soci@lism if it serves your petty hatreds.

    Principles are only principles when they apply to everybody. Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.

    That said, no alien should be eligible for welfare benefits. The whole purpose of our immigration policy should be to allow as many industrious people into this country. This should include industious people from all vocations. People who come here for the welfare, drug dealers and other criminals should be deported without delay.

    But as for your complaining about in state tuition for illegals, I remind you that the rationale for in state tuition has nothing to do with immigration policy. It comes from the theory that people who pay taxes in a state should get a lower tuition rate than those who pay taxes elsewhere. I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas. So, I’m not that outraged that an in state taxpayer gets an in state tuition rate.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah? By what sob sister soci@list rationale do you figure that someone “deserves” a job? What about the drugged up, slacker, criminal types that were born in America? Do they “deserve” jobs so much that American companies should be forced to hire them when hard working people who won’t cheat their employers are available? Nobody owns a job in this country; we all have to compete for them.

    I repeat, it should NEVER be against the law to hire someone to do a job. The fact that you are now willing to live with a system that punishes people for working and businesses for hiring just goes to show that YOU are willing to accept sob sister soci@lism if it serves your petty hatreds.

    Principles are only principles when they apply to everybody. Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.

    That said, no alien should be eligible for welfare benefits. The whole purpose of our immigration policy should be to allow as many industrious people into this country. This should include industious people from all vocations. People who come here for the welfare, drug dealers and other criminals should be deported without delay.

    But as for your complaining about in state tuition for illegals, I remind you that the rationale for in state tuition has nothing to do with immigration policy. It comes from the theory that people who pay taxes in a state should get a lower tuition rate than those who pay taxes elsewhere. I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas. So, I’m not that outraged that an in state taxpayer gets an in state tuition rate.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    kerner @ 35

    Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.

    ha! ;)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    kerner @ 35

    Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.

    ha! ;)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah?”

    Yeah.

    You see that is what it means to be a citizen. It means you get to vote for the policies of your country. It is called democracy. It is called rule of law. The citizens voted for representatives to enact legislation, and some of that is about how foreigners may enter our country. We know that business want to expand its markets, so more folks here means more consumers of their products. So, those breaking the laws are profiting at the expense of fellow citizens. We are the injured parties because we pick up the tab for social services and business keeps the profits of hiring cheap labor. Cheap labor makes the rich richer.

    In all of my life, I don’t think I ever heard a politician campaigning on the promise to displace American workers with foreigners.

    The elites charged with enforcing rule of law are the drugged up slacker criminal types that were born in America, not the American worker and taxpayer.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah?”

    Yeah.

    You see that is what it means to be a citizen. It means you get to vote for the policies of your country. It is called democracy. It is called rule of law. The citizens voted for representatives to enact legislation, and some of that is about how foreigners may enter our country. We know that business want to expand its markets, so more folks here means more consumers of their products. So, those breaking the laws are profiting at the expense of fellow citizens. We are the injured parties because we pick up the tab for social services and business keeps the profits of hiring cheap labor. Cheap labor makes the rich richer.

    In all of my life, I don’t think I ever heard a politician campaigning on the promise to displace American workers with foreigners.

    The elites charged with enforcing rule of law are the drugged up slacker criminal types that were born in America, not the American worker and taxpayer.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas.”

    Hilarious. LA school district pays $27k per student per year. If illegals paid 100% of their income in taxes, it wouldn’t even cover the cost of their kids’ public school education. The poor and non English speaking qualify for preK as well as K-12. So, that is $27k times 14 years. If they have the average 3 kids, that is $1,134,000. Yeah, sure the average illegal pays over 1.1 million in taxes.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas.”

    Hilarious. LA school district pays $27k per student per year. If illegals paid 100% of their income in taxes, it wouldn’t even cover the cost of their kids’ public school education. The poor and non English speaking qualify for preK as well as K-12. So, that is $27k times 14 years. If they have the average 3 kids, that is $1,134,000. Yeah, sure the average illegal pays over 1.1 million in taxes.

  • Grace

    35 kerner

    “YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah? By what sob sister soci@list rationale do you figure that someone “deserves” a job? What about the drugged up, slacker, criminal types that were born in America? Do they “deserve” jobs so much that American companies should be forced to hire them when hard working people who won’t cheat their employers are available? Nobody owns a job in this country; we all have to compete for them.”

    No one mentioned “drugged up, slacker criminal types that were born in America?” Settle down Kerner – I never suggested such gibberish. Nor was hiring them as well. There are plenty of people who are not criminals, or druggies, that should have the jobs that illegal aliens now have.

    Anyone who is breaking the law, cheating, lying, etc., IS CHEATING their employers. They have taken a job from someone who is a citizen. No body owns a job – at last you are right about something, HOWEVER, illegal aliens have NO RIGHT to jobs when they break the laws, cheating and lying!

    “I repeat, it should NEVER be against the law to hire someone to do a job. The fact that you are now willing to live with a system that punishes people for working and businesses for hiring just goes to show that YOU are willing to accept sob sister soci@lism if it serves your petty hatreds. Principles are only principles when they apply to everybody. Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.”

    Socialism is spreading the wealth of those who pay taxes, to those who are cheating, lying, that describes illegal aliens, free education, health, you name it, they have it on their list of USEFUL SPIFFS, when coming here to break our laws.

    “But as for your complaining about in state tuition for illegals, I remind you that the rationale for in state tuition has nothing to do with immigration policy. It comes from the theory that people who pay taxes in a state should get a lower tuition rate than those who pay taxes elsewhere. I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas. So, I’m not that outraged that an in state taxpayer gets an in state tuition rate.”

    Taxes pay for universities – illegal aliens have no right to use any part of our tax dollars to educate them.

    Kerner, I believe you have mentioned living in Wisconsin, if that’s true, I doubt you understand what illegals spend money on – they send most of it back to Mexico, they don’t spend much of what they make here,….. oh except alcohol and drugs, then there is the gang paraphernalia that is required, along with weapons. Gee, that’s a real SALES TAX BENEFIT to us in California.

    For your information: FORBES – 3/12/2010

    “Right now Chicago has the highest big-city rate, 10.25 percent. But in a move forced by Cook County lawmakers, the rate is scheduled to drop on July 1 to 9.75 percent, matching that of Los Angeles. In New York City the total bite is 8.875 percent. Other high big-city rates include San Francisco and Seattle (9.5 percent), New Orleans (9 percent), Houston, Dallas and Charlotte (8.25 percent), Las Vegas (8.1 percent) and Philadelphia and Atlanta (8 percent).” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35822798/ns/business-forbescom

    Kerner, stay informed -

  • Grace

    35 kerner

    “YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah? By what sob sister soci@list rationale do you figure that someone “deserves” a job? What about the drugged up, slacker, criminal types that were born in America? Do they “deserve” jobs so much that American companies should be forced to hire them when hard working people who won’t cheat their employers are available? Nobody owns a job in this country; we all have to compete for them.”

    No one mentioned “drugged up, slacker criminal types that were born in America?” Settle down Kerner – I never suggested such gibberish. Nor was hiring them as well. There are plenty of people who are not criminals, or druggies, that should have the jobs that illegal aliens now have.

    Anyone who is breaking the law, cheating, lying, etc., IS CHEATING their employers. They have taken a job from someone who is a citizen. No body owns a job – at last you are right about something, HOWEVER, illegal aliens have NO RIGHT to jobs when they break the laws, cheating and lying!

    “I repeat, it should NEVER be against the law to hire someone to do a job. The fact that you are now willing to live with a system that punishes people for working and businesses for hiring just goes to show that YOU are willing to accept sob sister soci@lism if it serves your petty hatreds. Principles are only principles when they apply to everybody. Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.”

    Socialism is spreading the wealth of those who pay taxes, to those who are cheating, lying, that describes illegal aliens, free education, health, you name it, they have it on their list of USEFUL SPIFFS, when coming here to break our laws.

    “But as for your complaining about in state tuition for illegals, I remind you that the rationale for in state tuition has nothing to do with immigration policy. It comes from the theory that people who pay taxes in a state should get a lower tuition rate than those who pay taxes elsewhere. I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas. So, I’m not that outraged that an in state taxpayer gets an in state tuition rate.”

    Taxes pay for universities – illegal aliens have no right to use any part of our tax dollars to educate them.

    Kerner, I believe you have mentioned living in Wisconsin, if that’s true, I doubt you understand what illegals spend money on – they send most of it back to Mexico, they don’t spend much of what they make here,….. oh except alcohol and drugs, then there is the gang paraphernalia that is required, along with weapons. Gee, that’s a real SALES TAX BENEFIT to us in California.

    For your information: FORBES – 3/12/2010

    “Right now Chicago has the highest big-city rate, 10.25 percent. But in a move forced by Cook County lawmakers, the rate is scheduled to drop on July 1 to 9.75 percent, matching that of Los Angeles. In New York City the total bite is 8.875 percent. Other high big-city rates include San Francisco and Seattle (9.5 percent), New Orleans (9 percent), Houston, Dallas and Charlotte (8.25 percent), Las Vegas (8.1 percent) and Philadelphia and Atlanta (8 percent).” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35822798/ns/business-forbescom

    Kerner, stay informed -

  • Grace

    35 kerner

    “YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah? By what sob sister soci@list rationale do you figure that someone “deserves” a job? What about the drugged up, slacker, criminal types that were born in America? Do they “deserve” jobs so much that American companies should be forced to hire them when hard working people who won’t cheat their employers are available? Nobody owns a job in this country; we all have to compete for them.”

    No one mentioned “drugged up, slacker criminal types that were born in America?” Settle down Kerner – I never suggested such gibberish. Nor was hiring them as well. There are plenty of people who are not criminals, or druggies, that should have the jobs that illegal aliens now have.

    Anyone who is breaking the law, cheating, lying, etc., IS CHEATING their employers. They have taken a job from someone who is a citizen. No body owns a job – at last you are right about something, HOWEVER, illegal aliens have NO RIGHT to jobs when they break the laws, cheating and lying!

    “I repeat, it should NEVER be against the law to hire someone to do a job. The fact that you are now willing to live with a system that punishes people for working and businesses for hiring just goes to show that YOU are willing to accept sob sister soci@lism if it serves your petty hatreds. Principles are only principles when they apply to everybody. Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.”

    Soci@lism is spreading the wealth of those who pay taxes, to those who are cheating, lying, that describes illegal aliens, free education, health, you name it, they have it on their list of USEFUL SPIFFS, when coming here to break our laws.

    “But as for your complaining about in state tuition for illegals, I remind you that the rationale for in state tuition has nothing to do with immigration policy. It comes from the theory that people who pay taxes in a state should get a lower tuition rate than those who pay taxes elsewhere. I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas. So, I’m not that outraged that an in state taxpayer gets an in state tuition rate.”

    Taxes pay for universities – illegal aliens have no right to use any part of our tax dollars to educate them.

    Kerner, I believe you have mentioned living in Wisconsin, if that’s true, I doubt you understand what illegals spend money on – they send most of it back to Mexico, they don’t spend much of what they make here,….. oh except alcohol and drugs, then there is the gang paraphernalia that is required, along with weapons. Gee, that’s a real SALES TAX BENEFIT to us in California.

    For your information: FORBES – 3/12/2010

    “Right now Chicago has the highest big-city rate, 10.25 percent. But in a move forced by Cook County lawmakers, the rate is scheduled to drop on July 1 to 9.75 percent, matching that of Los Angeles. In New York City the total bite is 8.875 percent. Other high big-city rates include San Francisco and Seattle (9.5 percent), New Orleans (9 percent), Houston, Dallas and Charlotte (8.25 percent), Las Vegas (8.1 percent) and Philadelphia and Atlanta (8 percent).” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35822798/ns/business-forbescom

  • Grace

    35 kerner

    “YOU are the sob sister. Listen to you: “Americans deserve the jobs illegals now have”. Oh yeah? By what sob sister soci@list rationale do you figure that someone “deserves” a job? What about the drugged up, slacker, criminal types that were born in America? Do they “deserve” jobs so much that American companies should be forced to hire them when hard working people who won’t cheat their employers are available? Nobody owns a job in this country; we all have to compete for them.”

    No one mentioned “drugged up, slacker criminal types that were born in America?” Settle down Kerner – I never suggested such gibberish. Nor was hiring them as well. There are plenty of people who are not criminals, or druggies, that should have the jobs that illegal aliens now have.

    Anyone who is breaking the law, cheating, lying, etc., IS CHEATING their employers. They have taken a job from someone who is a citizen. No body owns a job – at last you are right about something, HOWEVER, illegal aliens have NO RIGHT to jobs when they break the laws, cheating and lying!

    “I repeat, it should NEVER be against the law to hire someone to do a job. The fact that you are now willing to live with a system that punishes people for working and businesses for hiring just goes to show that YOU are willing to accept sob sister soci@lism if it serves your petty hatreds. Principles are only principles when they apply to everybody. Really, Grace, I expect this business bashing from fws, but not from you.”

    Soci@lism is spreading the wealth of those who pay taxes, to those who are cheating, lying, that describes illegal aliens, free education, health, you name it, they have it on their list of USEFUL SPIFFS, when coming here to break our laws.

    “But as for your complaining about in state tuition for illegals, I remind you that the rationale for in state tuition has nothing to do with immigration policy. It comes from the theory that people who pay taxes in a state should get a lower tuition rate than those who pay taxes elsewhere. I further remind you that California has the highest state sales tax (7.25 %) in the nation, and that with county sales taxes, the illegals living in Los Angeles County are paying 9.75% every time they buy a new pair of maracas. So, I’m not that outraged that an in state taxpayer gets an in state tuition rate.”

    Taxes pay for universities – illegal aliens have no right to use any part of our tax dollars to educate them.

    Kerner, I believe you have mentioned living in Wisconsin, if that’s true, I doubt you understand what illegals spend money on – they send most of it back to Mexico, they don’t spend much of what they make here,….. oh except alcohol and drugs, then there is the gang paraphernalia that is required, along with weapons. Gee, that’s a real SALES TAX BENEFIT to us in California.

    For your information: FORBES – 3/12/2010

    “Right now Chicago has the highest big-city rate, 10.25 percent. But in a move forced by Cook County lawmakers, the rate is scheduled to drop on July 1 to 9.75 percent, matching that of Los Angeles. In New York City the total bite is 8.875 percent. Other high big-city rates include San Francisco and Seattle (9.5 percent), New Orleans (9 percent), Houston, Dallas and Charlotte (8.25 percent), Las Vegas (8.1 percent) and Philadelphia and Atlanta (8 percent).” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35822798/ns/business-forbescom

  • kerner

    “In all my life I don’t think I ever heard a politician campaigning on the promise to displace American workers with foreigners.”
    sg

    Oh really? You never heard of NAFTA? You never heard of all the manufacturing jobs overseas? You never heard the “global economy” mentioned in our political discourse?

    High productivity is always good for the economy. Competitively priced labor produces competitively priced goods that everyone can afford.

    Expanded markets for American businesses don’t victimize Americans. Expanded markets for American businesses means more (albeit different) jobs for Americans. That’s why free trade produced prosperity for the USA even though a lot of the manufacturing jobs went over seas.

    And don’t forget that more people here means more taxpayers. You live in Texas, sg. You don’t even have a state income tax. Your state sales tax is 6.25% with counties having the ability to add an additional 2%. You are the one who thinks that voting should be based on paying taxes. Given your tax system there in Texas, it seems to me that the illegals should get some say in how their tax money gets spent.

    But compare Texas with California. Texas has plenty of illegals, just like California. Your sales tax is lower than California, and you have no state income tax while California does. And yet Texas is not having the insolvency problems that California is having. I think that even your health care system is much less burdened than theirs. Why do you think that is?

    Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that California’s problems are due to something OTHER than illegals. Do you think that maybe California’s public employee unions stranglehold on its legislature might have something to do with their insolvency? Do you think that the fact that Texas’s recent tort reform laws, which have dramaticly reduced malpractice inssurance rates and caused a net increase in health care providers in Texas, might have something to do with Texas ability to maintain its health care system better than California, which would never stiff the trial lawyers?

    The reasons for the differences is that Texas operates by conservative principles, whereas California is liberal heaven. Texas functions well, despite (maybe in part because of) the presence of illegals, because it is conservative. California will not improve by trying to get rid of its illegals. California will only improve when it gets rid (by which I mean getting them out of power) of its liberals.

  • kerner

    “In all my life I don’t think I ever heard a politician campaigning on the promise to displace American workers with foreigners.”
    sg

    Oh really? You never heard of NAFTA? You never heard of all the manufacturing jobs overseas? You never heard the “global economy” mentioned in our political discourse?

    High productivity is always good for the economy. Competitively priced labor produces competitively priced goods that everyone can afford.

    Expanded markets for American businesses don’t victimize Americans. Expanded markets for American businesses means more (albeit different) jobs for Americans. That’s why free trade produced prosperity for the USA even though a lot of the manufacturing jobs went over seas.

    And don’t forget that more people here means more taxpayers. You live in Texas, sg. You don’t even have a state income tax. Your state sales tax is 6.25% with counties having the ability to add an additional 2%. You are the one who thinks that voting should be based on paying taxes. Given your tax system there in Texas, it seems to me that the illegals should get some say in how their tax money gets spent.

    But compare Texas with California. Texas has plenty of illegals, just like California. Your sales tax is lower than California, and you have no state income tax while California does. And yet Texas is not having the insolvency problems that California is having. I think that even your health care system is much less burdened than theirs. Why do you think that is?

    Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that California’s problems are due to something OTHER than illegals. Do you think that maybe California’s public employee unions stranglehold on its legislature might have something to do with their insolvency? Do you think that the fact that Texas’s recent tort reform laws, which have dramaticly reduced malpractice inssurance rates and caused a net increase in health care providers in Texas, might have something to do with Texas ability to maintain its health care system better than California, which would never stiff the trial lawyers?

    The reasons for the differences is that Texas operates by conservative principles, whereas California is liberal heaven. Texas functions well, despite (maybe in part because of) the presence of illegals, because it is conservative. California will not improve by trying to get rid of its illegals. California will only improve when it gets rid (by which I mean getting them out of power) of its liberals.

  • Grace

    sg – there are thousands of people who have no idea what the price per student, educated in California costs. They are so busy playing the soci@list game, the Sobster seeks to do good, however lawless. As in, – ignore the laws, let us all eat cake – the problem is, we pay for the cake!

  • Grace

    sg – there are thousands of people who have no idea what the price per student, educated in California costs. They are so busy playing the soci@list game, the Sobster seeks to do good, however lawless. As in, – ignore the laws, let us all eat cake – the problem is, we pay for the cake!

  • Tom Hering

    “The liberals, of course, are in denial about all of this and, like Tom Hering, see and dream of present matters as a temporary political correction.” – Porcell @ 26.

    My position has always been that elections – for most voters – are about bread, not ideology. “Dreaming” has nothing to do with it. The voters will kick the current crop of liberals and conservatives out if the bread on voters’ tables continues to be at risk.

    Nice try at a dig, though. I like it when you get rough with me, big boy. :-)

  • Tom Hering

    “The liberals, of course, are in denial about all of this and, like Tom Hering, see and dream of present matters as a temporary political correction.” – Porcell @ 26.

    My position has always been that elections – for most voters – are about bread, not ideology. “Dreaming” has nothing to do with it. The voters will kick the current crop of liberals and conservatives out if the bread on voters’ tables continues to be at risk.

    Nice try at a dig, though. I like it when you get rough with me, big boy. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And don’t forget that more people here means more taxpayers.”

    Ugh, they aren’t taxpayers. They are net tax eaters.

    I cited the labor participation rates. We have plenty of labor but we pay people not to work.

    “Expanded markets for American businesses don’t victimize Americans.”

    They do when they get their money from taxpayers! If they paid for their own healthcare, they wouldn’t have any money to spend!

    Illegal immigration is a lose lose lose proposition.

    Texas is somewhat more conservative, but it isn’t really any better off than California. Texas is just not as far down the road. All who go down the same road end up in the same place. California is beating us in the race to insolvency, but we will get there too if our population consumes more in social services than the population produces.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And don’t forget that more people here means more taxpayers.”

    Ugh, they aren’t taxpayers. They are net tax eaters.

    I cited the labor participation rates. We have plenty of labor but we pay people not to work.

    “Expanded markets for American businesses don’t victimize Americans.”

    They do when they get their money from taxpayers! If they paid for their own healthcare, they wouldn’t have any money to spend!

    Illegal immigration is a lose lose lose proposition.

    Texas is somewhat more conservative, but it isn’t really any better off than California. Texas is just not as far down the road. All who go down the same road end up in the same place. California is beating us in the race to insolvency, but we will get there too if our population consumes more in social services than the population produces.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So, kerner, do you honestly believe that over his lifetime the average illegal will pay the over $1 million in taxes it costs just for his kids to attend school in LA?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So, kerner, do you honestly believe that over his lifetime the average illegal will pay the over $1 million in taxes it costs just for his kids to attend school in LA?

  • kerner

    “Taxes pay for our universities, illegals have no right of any part of our taxes to educate them.”

    Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education, but foreign taxpayers have no right to access to the same system even though they pay into it also. That’s perfectly clear now.

  • kerner

    “Taxes pay for our universities, illegals have no right of any part of our taxes to educate them.”

    Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education, but foreign taxpayers have no right to access to the same system even though they pay into it also. That’s perfectly clear now.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education, but foreign taxpayers have no right to access to the same system even though they pay into it also. That’s perfectly clear now.”

    This is called dodging the question.

    FWIW my kids are in private school. We have paid an average of $5k per year in taxes for schools for about 25 years. That is about $125 k. So, I answered your question. Now, can you answer mine?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education, but foreign taxpayers have no right to access to the same system even though they pay into it also. That’s perfectly clear now.”

    This is called dodging the question.

    FWIW my kids are in private school. We have paid an average of $5k per year in taxes for schools for about 25 years. That is about $125 k. So, I answered your question. Now, can you answer mine?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    For those who perhaps think it is mean spirited not to want to pay for social services: The opposition is based on the fact that we don’t have the money. If we had the money, then we could talk about what we would prefer to spend it on, and either increase or reduce taxes. So, the situation is a fiscal problem. We don’t have the money. California is getting to the point that it can’t even pay the interest on the debt it owes and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    For those who perhaps think it is mean spirited not to want to pay for social services: The opposition is based on the fact that we don’t have the money. If we had the money, then we could talk about what we would prefer to spend it on, and either increase or reduce taxes. So, the situation is a fiscal problem. We don’t have the money. California is getting to the point that it can’t even pay the interest on the debt it owes and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education,”

    Why do you always have to make it personal? Sheesh. This is straightforward accounting. The point is all the red ink on the balance sheet. It is not about loving our neighbors etc. You can’t give what you don’t have.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education,”

    Why do you always have to make it personal? Sheesh. This is straightforward accounting. The point is all the red ink on the balance sheet. It is not about loving our neighbors etc. You can’t give what you don’t have.

  • Grace

    “Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education, but foreign taxpayers have no right to access to the same system even though they pay into it also. That’s perfectly clear now.”

    Don’t try and mix it up with me Kerner, I see right through your question, as an attorney you know better – try that on someone else.

  • Grace

    “Oh I see. Your kids have a right to use the taxes foreigners pay for their education, but foreign taxpayers have no right to access to the same system even though they pay into it also. That’s perfectly clear now.”

    Don’t try and mix it up with me Kerner, I see right through your question, as an attorney you know better – try that on someone else.

  • kerner

    sg @44:

    You’re missing the point. No taxpayer can pay for a system that spends that much on its school system. YOUR TAXES wouldn’t cover the cost of your kids education if YOU lived in LA. MINE wouldn’t either.

    The point is that the problem in LA is not that the average illegal doesn’t pay enough taxes. The problem is that public education in Los Angeles COSTS TOO MUCH. And it costs to much because it is in the control of overpaid and over numerous public employee union bureaucrats and “educators” (i.e., liberals) who suck everybody in California dry. Solve that problem, and taxes, including those paid by immigrants, will cover the cost. New Jersey has voted to address this problem. California just voted not to. New Jersey will recover. California will continue to crash and burn.

    It’s the liberals that are the problem. The illegals probably pay about as much in taxes as anybody else making the same money pays. Low income Americans don’t pay taxes except for sales taxes and VAT’s either. The presence or absence of illegals is largely irrelevant to the bankruptcy problems that California is having.

    Personally, I think this issue is a distraction, and liberals love to see conservatives fixate on it. When we get all excited over people who aren’t the problem, we forget about the liberals. Meanwhile, by making political enemies of a growing segment of the population, we make hispanics easier for liberals to recruit.

    (I don’t mean to shout by using CAPS. I just don’t know how to use bold or Italics.)

  • kerner

    sg @44:

    You’re missing the point. No taxpayer can pay for a system that spends that much on its school system. YOUR TAXES wouldn’t cover the cost of your kids education if YOU lived in LA. MINE wouldn’t either.

    The point is that the problem in LA is not that the average illegal doesn’t pay enough taxes. The problem is that public education in Los Angeles COSTS TOO MUCH. And it costs to much because it is in the control of overpaid and over numerous public employee union bureaucrats and “educators” (i.e., liberals) who suck everybody in California dry. Solve that problem, and taxes, including those paid by immigrants, will cover the cost. New Jersey has voted to address this problem. California just voted not to. New Jersey will recover. California will continue to crash and burn.

    It’s the liberals that are the problem. The illegals probably pay about as much in taxes as anybody else making the same money pays. Low income Americans don’t pay taxes except for sales taxes and VAT’s either. The presence or absence of illegals is largely irrelevant to the bankruptcy problems that California is having.

    Personally, I think this issue is a distraction, and liberals love to see conservatives fixate on it. When we get all excited over people who aren’t the problem, we forget about the liberals. Meanwhile, by making political enemies of a growing segment of the population, we make hispanics easier for liberals to recruit.

    (I don’t mean to shout by using CAPS. I just don’t know how to use bold or Italics.)

  • kerner

    Oh, sg, My kids went to private schools too (well mostly) so I paid more into a system than I used just like you. But if I did live in LA, and my kids used that system, all my taxes wouold not have covered a crazily expensive system like that.

  • kerner

    Oh, sg, My kids went to private schools too (well mostly) so I paid more into a system than I used just like you. But if I did live in LA, and my kids used that system, all my taxes wouold not have covered a crazily expensive system like that.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The presence or absence of illegals is largely irrelevant to the bankruptcy problems that California is having.”

    No, it is not irrelevant. It is the driving force. The illegals are the ones sitting in the desks in the schools. The illegals are the ones on Medicaid, food stamps, WIC, etc. If it weren’t for the illegals creating the demand for social services, there wouldn’t be all the public employees providing them. And if there weren’t so many public employees, they wouldn’t be able to team up with those who vote themselves goodies and continue the spending. Get it?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The presence or absence of illegals is largely irrelevant to the bankruptcy problems that California is having.”

    No, it is not irrelevant. It is the driving force. The illegals are the ones sitting in the desks in the schools. The illegals are the ones on Medicaid, food stamps, WIC, etc. If it weren’t for the illegals creating the demand for social services, there wouldn’t be all the public employees providing them. And if there weren’t so many public employees, they wouldn’t be able to team up with those who vote themselves goodies and continue the spending. Get it?

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 25: A quick scan of the comments since #25 convinces me that we agree on the primary ailment California faces, which is the Democrats’ complete sell-out to public employee unions. The inevitable crack-up that is going to occur between the many “Gimme — you owe me” factions that make up the Democratic party will be centered on the piggishness of the unions and the crazy amount of money they have used to buy the Democratic party, to the ultimate detriment of those who are truly in need. This is the “ideological crisis” which is the subject of the post. You indicated your agreement in post # 40.

    However, I cannot stand by and let you say things like “Your position is a prime example of what I say that the “conservative” position on immigration isn’t really conservative. You want to impose substantial fines on American businesses for hiring the most productive workers they can find. That is such a statist/soci@list idea it isn’t even funny, and it is totally anti-free market.”, without response. In particular, further down in the comment you strongly imply, or actually downright state, that to support employer laws in connection with immigration is to be racist. That’s outrageous.

    There is nothing wrong or unconservative about supporting immigration laws. Let’s start with that. We are entitled to know who is crossing our borders and why they are doing so. Significantly, it is a matter of national security. We know, for a fact, that the perpetrators of 9/11 were in the country illegally, having overstayed their tourist and student visas, and the lack of enforcement of our immigration laws led to the needless and horrible deaths of 3,000 Americans.

    Assuming that you agree that immigration laws aren’t liberal or racist, there is the matter of enforcement. Obviously, border controls are important, but imperfect. We are not going to catch everyone who attempts to enter illegally, and border controls can do nothing to address the problem of those who enter legally but then don’t leave when they should. Once in the country, the most logical, and, in fact, only reasonable way to enforce our laws is to work with employers to ensure that illegal residents cannot be gainfully employed. Contrary to your statement, every adult in our country is NOT entitled to work in our country. That is the law. It is not “conservative” to flout the law, and, in fact, to deliberately not enforce it, as you are advocating. If you don’t like the law, change it. But in the meantime, it is right to enforce it.

    Now, how to enforce it. I don’t believe these laws should be enforced in a way that unduly burdens employers. That is why we need to make E-Verify as robust as it can be. It is not a big burden to make employers do an e-verify check as a condition of employment. If they get a green light, then all is good. Even if that green light turns out to be false, the employer should not face any penalties for errantly hiring an illegal. If the check does not result in a green light, then the law should be such that the employment is conditional for a period of time, until the immigration issue can be resolved.

    Kerner, you do not live in a state that is burdened by substantial illegal immigration, with its resultant burden on social infrastructure, and with the federal government’s complete unwillingness to compensate border states for its own failed immigration policies. So maybe it’s understandable that you are cavalier about these issues and this burden, unlike those that live in burdened states. But even so, you should at least acknowledge the security concerns, and stop calling people who want our immigration laws enforced “racist”.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 25: A quick scan of the comments since #25 convinces me that we agree on the primary ailment California faces, which is the Democrats’ complete sell-out to public employee unions. The inevitable crack-up that is going to occur between the many “Gimme — you owe me” factions that make up the Democratic party will be centered on the piggishness of the unions and the crazy amount of money they have used to buy the Democratic party, to the ultimate detriment of those who are truly in need. This is the “ideological crisis” which is the subject of the post. You indicated your agreement in post # 40.

    However, I cannot stand by and let you say things like “Your position is a prime example of what I say that the “conservative” position on immigration isn’t really conservative. You want to impose substantial fines on American businesses for hiring the most productive workers they can find. That is such a statist/soci@list idea it isn’t even funny, and it is totally anti-free market.”, without response. In particular, further down in the comment you strongly imply, or actually downright state, that to support employer laws in connection with immigration is to be racist. That’s outrageous.

    There is nothing wrong or unconservative about supporting immigration laws. Let’s start with that. We are entitled to know who is crossing our borders and why they are doing so. Significantly, it is a matter of national security. We know, for a fact, that the perpetrators of 9/11 were in the country illegally, having overstayed their tourist and student visas, and the lack of enforcement of our immigration laws led to the needless and horrible deaths of 3,000 Americans.

    Assuming that you agree that immigration laws aren’t liberal or racist, there is the matter of enforcement. Obviously, border controls are important, but imperfect. We are not going to catch everyone who attempts to enter illegally, and border controls can do nothing to address the problem of those who enter legally but then don’t leave when they should. Once in the country, the most logical, and, in fact, only reasonable way to enforce our laws is to work with employers to ensure that illegal residents cannot be gainfully employed. Contrary to your statement, every adult in our country is NOT entitled to work in our country. That is the law. It is not “conservative” to flout the law, and, in fact, to deliberately not enforce it, as you are advocating. If you don’t like the law, change it. But in the meantime, it is right to enforce it.

    Now, how to enforce it. I don’t believe these laws should be enforced in a way that unduly burdens employers. That is why we need to make E-Verify as robust as it can be. It is not a big burden to make employers do an e-verify check as a condition of employment. If they get a green light, then all is good. Even if that green light turns out to be false, the employer should not face any penalties for errantly hiring an illegal. If the check does not result in a green light, then the law should be such that the employment is conditional for a period of time, until the immigration issue can be resolved.

    Kerner, you do not live in a state that is burdened by substantial illegal immigration, with its resultant burden on social infrastructure, and with the federal government’s complete unwillingness to compensate border states for its own failed immigration policies. So maybe it’s understandable that you are cavalier about these issues and this burden, unlike those that live in burdened states. But even so, you should at least acknowledge the security concerns, and stop calling people who want our immigration laws enforced “racist”.

  • DonS

    By the way, sg, where did you get that factoid that L.A. spends $27k per student per year for public education? I didn’t see a cite, and I don’t believe that number is anywhere near right. California funds school districts on a per student basis, and that number is between $6,000 and 7,000, as I recall. School districts sometimes have other sources of funding that can augment that figure, but I don’t know how you would get to $27k.

  • DonS

    By the way, sg, where did you get that factoid that L.A. spends $27k per student per year for public education? I didn’t see a cite, and I don’t believe that number is anywhere near right. California funds school districts on a per student basis, and that number is between $6,000 and 7,000, as I recall. School districts sometimes have other sources of funding that can augment that figure, but I don’t know how you would get to $27k.

  • kerner

    sg @48:

    “It’s not about loving our neighbors. You can’t give what you don’t have.”

    Agreed. But I still think you don’t understand free market economics. You seem to think that for American businesses to expand, gain more customers, etc., is going to hurt Americans.

    Expanding American businesses mean an expanded economy. The economy is not a “zero sum game”. When there is lot’s of economic activity, there is more wealth creation. And that also means more taxable events, so government revenues expand too. More productive people in this country means a better economy for everybody. And that includes more productive unskilled and semi skilled workers. I don’t argue when you say that unproductive people should stay out or have to leave. But keeping out people who want to work? Now THAT’S a lose lose proposition.

  • kerner

    sg @48:

    “It’s not about loving our neighbors. You can’t give what you don’t have.”

    Agreed. But I still think you don’t understand free market economics. You seem to think that for American businesses to expand, gain more customers, etc., is going to hurt Americans.

    Expanding American businesses mean an expanded economy. The economy is not a “zero sum game”. When there is lot’s of economic activity, there is more wealth creation. And that also means more taxable events, so government revenues expand too. More productive people in this country means a better economy for everybody. And that includes more productive unskilled and semi skilled workers. I don’t argue when you say that unproductive people should stay out or have to leave. But keeping out people who want to work? Now THAT’S a lose lose proposition.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh, sg, My kids went to private schools too (well mostly) so I paid more into a system than I used just like you. But if I did live in LA, and my kids used that system, all my taxes wouold not have covered a crazily expensive system like that.”

    So, the system is insolvent even when those rich enough pay for 100% of their own kids education as well as contribute to the education of others. So, why is it insolvent? All the kids of illegals in the desks. Go back and look at the labor participation rates I linked. We have way more labor than we need. If we provided no social services, the illegals would not come. It is not a good deal for them if they had to pay for education and health care at US rates. They would have a net zero income.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Oh, sg, My kids went to private schools too (well mostly) so I paid more into a system than I used just like you. But if I did live in LA, and my kids used that system, all my taxes wouold not have covered a crazily expensive system like that.”

    So, the system is insolvent even when those rich enough pay for 100% of their own kids education as well as contribute to the education of others. So, why is it insolvent? All the kids of illegals in the desks. Go back and look at the labor participation rates I linked. We have way more labor than we need. If we provided no social services, the illegals would not come. It is not a good deal for them if they had to pay for education and health care at US rates. They would have a net zero income.

  • trotk

    So,sg (@44 and 46), you haven’t paid anywhere close to the amount necessary to fund the education of your children,either (provided that you lived in California). Granted, you have relieved the state of the burden, but the numbers given for cost per pupil in California (if they are accurate) are so ridiculously high that none of us would have paid enough for the education especially considering all the other things our taxes have to go to.

    sg and Grace, you are missing the point. My statement about the percentage of the total budget that Grace’s article about illegal immigration pointed to (1.9%) was intended to steer the conversation away from the issue. It is an important issue, but it is not the reason that there is an “ideological crisis of liberalism.”

    Take for example the schools: If $27K per student in Cali is correct, no one pays anywhere near enough taxes to fund that system. If liberals are to blame, and this is one of their ideological crises, blaming illegals is silly. It is ignoring the real issue.

    Grace and sg, we know your soapbox. Get down. You are making me (who as a Christian believes that I have the responsibility of caring for all, even (especially!) criminals, and who as an American wishes we could deport all illegals so that we could clean the system up to honor those who tried to wait in line legally) hate the conservative rhetoric and position. If the purpose of your speech is to erode support for your platform, you are succeeding. If not, rethink your tactics.

    On to the ideological crisis: I don’t think that it is possible to sort these things out. States will bankrupt, just as companies do, because there are too many causes and the necessary steps seem to hard and there is too much disagreement about how to help. The big question is whether or not the federal government will bail the states out.

  • trotk

    So,sg (@44 and 46), you haven’t paid anywhere close to the amount necessary to fund the education of your children,either (provided that you lived in California). Granted, you have relieved the state of the burden, but the numbers given for cost per pupil in California (if they are accurate) are so ridiculously high that none of us would have paid enough for the education especially considering all the other things our taxes have to go to.

    sg and Grace, you are missing the point. My statement about the percentage of the total budget that Grace’s article about illegal immigration pointed to (1.9%) was intended to steer the conversation away from the issue. It is an important issue, but it is not the reason that there is an “ideological crisis of liberalism.”

    Take for example the schools: If $27K per student in Cali is correct, no one pays anywhere near enough taxes to fund that system. If liberals are to blame, and this is one of their ideological crises, blaming illegals is silly. It is ignoring the real issue.

    Grace and sg, we know your soapbox. Get down. You are making me (who as a Christian believes that I have the responsibility of caring for all, even (especially!) criminals, and who as an American wishes we could deport all illegals so that we could clean the system up to honor those who tried to wait in line legally) hate the conservative rhetoric and position. If the purpose of your speech is to erode support for your platform, you are succeeding. If not, rethink your tactics.

    On to the ideological crisis: I don’t think that it is possible to sort these things out. States will bankrupt, just as companies do, because there are too many causes and the necessary steps seem to hard and there is too much disagreement about how to help. The big question is whether or not the federal government will bail the states out.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Agreed. But I still think you don’t understand free market economics.”

    And I don’t think you understand accounting or rule of law.

    Accounting: you can’t spend what you don’t have.

    Rule of Law: The people are sovereign and make the laws. The government must enforce the laws.

    The people of this country have the right to restrict immigration in any way they choose including totally proscribing all immigration. We do in fact invite good folks to immigrate, however, we are under no obligation to do so.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Agreed. But I still think you don’t understand free market economics.”

    And I don’t think you understand accounting or rule of law.

    Accounting: you can’t spend what you don’t have.

    Rule of Law: The people are sovereign and make the laws. The government must enforce the laws.

    The people of this country have the right to restrict immigration in any way they choose including totally proscribing all immigration. We do in fact invite good folks to immigrate, however, we are under no obligation to do so.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    “The point is that the problem in LA is not that the average illegal doesn’t pay enough taxes. The problem is that public education in Los Angeles COSTS TOO MUCH. And it costs to much because it is in the control of overpaid and over numerous public employee union bureaucrats and “educators” (i.e., liberals) who suck everybody in California dry. Solve that problem, and taxes, including those paid by immigrants, will cover the cost. New Jersey has voted to address this problem. California just voted not to. New Jersey will recover. California will continue to crash and burn.”

    The statement you make is totally laughable. Then there is your last comment – “California will continue to crash and burn” Oh how many folk from the middle west sing that song, or one just like it.

    “It’s the liberals that are the problem. The illegals probably pay about as much in taxes as anybody else making the same money pays. Low income Americans don’t pay taxes except for sales taxes and VAT’s either. The presence or absence of illegals is largely irrelevant to the bankruptcy problems that California is having.”

    Kerner, “PROBABLY” – you don’t have a clue, you’re guessing and bluffing. There is no “probably” to it, they don’t – but in your effort to seek an argument for which you don’t understand, never mind play the game to see how well you can score, without experience is pitiful. Restaurants, small stores, pay under the table – taxes are not in the mix. However if illegal aliens were sent packing – those who are citizens would demand benefits, after all if they were laid off they could collect unemployment. Employers would be forced to show tax, and pay all the tax that is required for all employees.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    “The point is that the problem in LA is not that the average illegal doesn’t pay enough taxes. The problem is that public education in Los Angeles COSTS TOO MUCH. And it costs to much because it is in the control of overpaid and over numerous public employee union bureaucrats and “educators” (i.e., liberals) who suck everybody in California dry. Solve that problem, and taxes, including those paid by immigrants, will cover the cost. New Jersey has voted to address this problem. California just voted not to. New Jersey will recover. California will continue to crash and burn.”

    The statement you make is totally laughable. Then there is your last comment – “California will continue to crash and burn” Oh how many folk from the middle west sing that song, or one just like it.

    “It’s the liberals that are the problem. The illegals probably pay about as much in taxes as anybody else making the same money pays. Low income Americans don’t pay taxes except for sales taxes and VAT’s either. The presence or absence of illegals is largely irrelevant to the bankruptcy problems that California is having.”

    Kerner, “PROBABLY” – you don’t have a clue, you’re guessing and bluffing. There is no “probably” to it, they don’t – but in your effort to seek an argument for which you don’t understand, never mind play the game to see how well you can score, without experience is pitiful. Restaurants, small stores, pay under the table – taxes are not in the mix. However if illegal aliens were sent packing – those who are citizens would demand benefits, after all if they were laid off they could collect unemployment. Employers would be forced to show tax, and pay all the tax that is required for all employees.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “So,sg (@44 and 46), you haven’t paid anywhere close to the amount necessary to fund the education of your children,either”

    Yes, I have. I have paid 100% of all of my children’s education. They have not used any public education services. In addition to paying for 100% of my children’s educational expenses, I have contributed to the education of the children in the community.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “So,sg (@44 and 46), you haven’t paid anywhere close to the amount necessary to fund the education of your children,either”

    Yes, I have. I have paid 100% of all of my children’s education. They have not used any public education services. In addition to paying for 100% of my children’s educational expenses, I have contributed to the education of the children in the community.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    LA school district does spend over $27 k per student

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12018

    But why so much?
    Well, because schools with terrible performance get more money.

    But why are they so low performing?
    The students.

    And who are the students?
    Children of illegals.

    When you have high performing students, you can educate them for $6k a year like our parish school does.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    LA school district does spend over $27 k per student

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=12018

    But why so much?
    Well, because schools with terrible performance get more money.

    But why are they so low performing?
    The students.

    And who are the students?
    Children of illegals.

    When you have high performing students, you can educate them for $6k a year like our parish school does.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “On to the ideological crisis: I don’t think that it is possible to sort these things out.”

    Sure we can. It is called accounting. However, there are dishonest parties with a vested interest in getting their bread buttered.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “On to the ideological crisis: I don’t think that it is possible to sort these things out.”

    Sure we can. It is called accounting. However, there are dishonest parties with a vested interest in getting their bread buttered.

  • kerner

    sigh, et tu, Don S?

    So now we need E-verify, aka, a national ID card in this country. Well, THERE’S yet another statist idea that conservatives are rushing to adopt to deal with “illegals”.

    The current Immigration law, in its basic form, was drafted by Teddy Kennedy in the 60′s to meet the needs of his Labor Union supporters. It is a protectionist, that is anti-free market, system.

    Look Don, I really hate the position I’m in here. There seem to be only two options. Adopt more statist controls to enforce an already statist, anti-free market, system. Or, I can advocate lawlessness. :(

    There are a number of grounds for excludability already in place that address all the problems that are complained of on this thread. Did you know that? Criminal activity? Already on the list. Terrorist contacts? That too. Likelihood of becoming a “public charge”? Absolutely, there already. As are other things, like carrying communicable diseases, the intention to practice polygamy, and more.

    But the desire to prevent foreigners from working in this country is protectionism, nothing more nor less. Protectionism is the antithesis of a free market, and conservatives should be against it. But are they? Often not.

    What I find instead is people who seem to be conservative adopting a whole new bureaucracy of regulators and a national ID/work permit card, both of which are statist in nature and threats to liberty, all for the sake of getting rid of a “threat” that is NOT the root cause of the problem (sorry sg, but they aren’t). And they do it out of fear. Maybe that fear is not racist in every case (or even most cases) but it is always fear.

    If my fellow conservatives could just back off from their fear for a second and remember their core principles they would not resist modifying the laws such that they did not prohibit or punish productive labor. Should immigrants be checked at the border to make sure they aren’t criminals or vagrants or sick, etc.? Of course they should. But could we just quit worrying about whether they might pluck our chickens or be a nanny for Meg Whitman’s kids? Please?

    And come on now. Maybe it ain’t California, but Wisconsin DOES have illegal aliens. We have agriculture, and slaughter houses, and tanneries, and landscapers, and hotels, and even a few nannies. What amazes me is how many of them have started businesses (I mean otherwise legitimate ones).

  • kerner

    sigh, et tu, Don S?

    So now we need E-verify, aka, a national ID card in this country. Well, THERE’S yet another statist idea that conservatives are rushing to adopt to deal with “illegals”.

    The current Immigration law, in its basic form, was drafted by Teddy Kennedy in the 60′s to meet the needs of his Labor Union supporters. It is a protectionist, that is anti-free market, system.

    Look Don, I really hate the position I’m in here. There seem to be only two options. Adopt more statist controls to enforce an already statist, anti-free market, system. Or, I can advocate lawlessness. :(

    There are a number of grounds for excludability already in place that address all the problems that are complained of on this thread. Did you know that? Criminal activity? Already on the list. Terrorist contacts? That too. Likelihood of becoming a “public charge”? Absolutely, there already. As are other things, like carrying communicable diseases, the intention to practice polygamy, and more.

    But the desire to prevent foreigners from working in this country is protectionism, nothing more nor less. Protectionism is the antithesis of a free market, and conservatives should be against it. But are they? Often not.

    What I find instead is people who seem to be conservative adopting a whole new bureaucracy of regulators and a national ID/work permit card, both of which are statist in nature and threats to liberty, all for the sake of getting rid of a “threat” that is NOT the root cause of the problem (sorry sg, but they aren’t). And they do it out of fear. Maybe that fear is not racist in every case (or even most cases) but it is always fear.

    If my fellow conservatives could just back off from their fear for a second and remember their core principles they would not resist modifying the laws such that they did not prohibit or punish productive labor. Should immigrants be checked at the border to make sure they aren’t criminals or vagrants or sick, etc.? Of course they should. But could we just quit worrying about whether they might pluck our chickens or be a nanny for Meg Whitman’s kids? Please?

    And come on now. Maybe it ain’t California, but Wisconsin DOES have illegal aliens. We have agriculture, and slaughter houses, and tanneries, and landscapers, and hotels, and even a few nannies. What amazes me is how many of them have started businesses (I mean otherwise legitimate ones).

  • helen

    Kerner @ 40
    Thanks for telling me Texas is so well off! I suppose that’s why our state university salaries have been frozen for two years [and probably will be for three more], why the governor asked for a return of 5% of state allotted money last year and wants 10% back each of the next two years. That’s why employees are being laid off, from teaching staff to facilities. The library (where I live) has not replaced departing staff for about five years and now is planning to reduce what’s left by another 20%.

    Rick Perry is doing fine.
    In this anti union state, it’s the “front lines” (who meet the students) that are getting shot up.

    [We have got the highest paid Football Coach in the country, of course. Leave it to Texas!]

  • helen

    Kerner @ 40
    Thanks for telling me Texas is so well off! I suppose that’s why our state university salaries have been frozen for two years [and probably will be for three more], why the governor asked for a return of 5% of state allotted money last year and wants 10% back each of the next two years. That’s why employees are being laid off, from teaching staff to facilities. The library (where I live) has not replaced departing staff for about five years and now is planning to reduce what’s left by another 20%.

    Rick Perry is doing fine.
    In this anti union state, it’s the “front lines” (who meet the students) that are getting shot up.

    [We have got the highest paid Football Coach in the country, of course. Leave it to Texas!]

  • kerner

    sigh again.

    sg:

    I DO understand accounting. What you do not understand about economics is that its includes, but is more than, accounting.

    A free market economy expands, and creates more wealth. When more wealth is created, there are more jobs, more prosperity, more for everybody. When you expand American businesses, that’s a positive for us all. When you cry out for more government control of the economy, you shrink the economy and there is less for us all. And you, sg, are calling for more government control. Not to mention more taxes to pay for it. So you are calling for less for us all.

  • kerner

    sigh again.

    sg:

    I DO understand accounting. What you do not understand about economics is that its includes, but is more than, accounting.

    A free market economy expands, and creates more wealth. When more wealth is created, there are more jobs, more prosperity, more for everybody. When you expand American businesses, that’s a positive for us all. When you cry out for more government control of the economy, you shrink the economy and there is less for us all. And you, sg, are calling for more government control. Not to mention more taxes to pay for it. So you are calling for less for us all.

  • kerner

    sg @64:

    I’m thrilled to read that you have discovered the Cato institute. May I suggest that you read their position on immigration here:

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11820

  • kerner

    sg @64:

    I’m thrilled to read that you have discovered the Cato institute. May I suggest that you read their position on immigration here:

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=11820

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Ugh, kerner. I think for myself. I just use Cato as a data source.

    “A free market economy expands, and creates more wealth. When more wealth is created, there are more jobs, more prosperity, more for everybody.”

    Not when the only growing demographic consumes more in government spending per capita than their gross earnings. There is no way that is fiscally sound.

    “And you, sg, are calling for more government control.”

    No, I am not. I am calling for rule of law.

    I am not opposed to immigration on general principle. But we have a labor glut. Go look at the labor participation rates.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Ugh, kerner. I think for myself. I just use Cato as a data source.

    “A free market economy expands, and creates more wealth. When more wealth is created, there are more jobs, more prosperity, more for everybody.”

    Not when the only growing demographic consumes more in government spending per capita than their gross earnings. There is no way that is fiscally sound.

    “And you, sg, are calling for more government control.”

    No, I am not. I am calling for rule of law.

    I am not opposed to immigration on general principle. But we have a labor glut. Go look at the labor participation rates.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We have got the highest paid Football Coach in the country, of course. Leave it to Texas!”

    He only gets paid that because the football team actually makes money for the school.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We have got the highest paid Football Coach in the country, of course. Leave it to Texas!”

    He only gets paid that because the football team actually makes money for the school.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But the desire to prevent foreigners from working in this country is protectionism, nothing more nor less.”

    They are coming for the free social services! If they couldn’t get those they would have a net zero income.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But the desire to prevent foreigners from working in this country is protectionism, nothing more nor less.”

    They are coming for the free social services! If they couldn’t get those they would have a net zero income.

  • kerner

    We don’t have a labor glut. We have a housing crash caused by FannyMay and FreddieMac, government corporations that extended loand to people who clearly couldn’t pay them, ignoring market forces. We also have an intrusive government that has bought a controling interest in major corporations and has managed to gain control of the health care industry, and has tried to, in the name of global warming (another non-threat, fear creator. “Global warming” is the “illegal immigration” of the left). All this has businesses so scared that they are refusing to create any jobs for fear of being regulated out of business. Get rid of all this onerous government intrusion, and all the cash that businesses are sitting on will be put back into the economy, and jobs will come back.

    You have, however, gotten to a way to discourage illegal immigration: ruin the economy. If you kill the jobs, they WILL stop coming. Of course, Americans will suffer too, but you can’t make an omlet without breaking eggs, I guess. ;)

  • kerner

    We don’t have a labor glut. We have a housing crash caused by FannyMay and FreddieMac, government corporations that extended loand to people who clearly couldn’t pay them, ignoring market forces. We also have an intrusive government that has bought a controling interest in major corporations and has managed to gain control of the health care industry, and has tried to, in the name of global warming (another non-threat, fear creator. “Global warming” is the “illegal immigration” of the left). All this has businesses so scared that they are refusing to create any jobs for fear of being regulated out of business. Get rid of all this onerous government intrusion, and all the cash that businesses are sitting on will be put back into the economy, and jobs will come back.

    You have, however, gotten to a way to discourage illegal immigration: ruin the economy. If you kill the jobs, they WILL stop coming. Of course, Americans will suffer too, but you can’t make an omlet without breaking eggs, I guess. ;)

  • Grace

    Breaking the Piggy Bank: How Illegal Immigration is Sending Schools Into the Red

    The calculation of the number of children of illegal aliens in the K-12 public school system indicates that more than 15 percent of California’s students are children of illegal aliens, as are more than ten percent of the students in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Nevada, and Texas. More than five percent of the students are the children of illegal aliens in Florida, Georgia, Kansas, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, and Washington.

    Defenders of illegal aliens assert that the cost of educating illegal alien students is offset by the taxes paid by their parents, but study after study shows that immigrants cost taxpayers much more in public services used than they pay into the system via taxes. This is particularly true of illegal immigrants, who are disproportionately low-skilled and thus low-earning and are much more likely to be working in the underground economy or providing contractual services and not withholding taxes.

    Another excerpt -

    “In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 20045 education budget—could:

    Cover the education budget shortfall for the 2004-05 school year, estimated by the Legislative Analyst Office at $6 billion and nearly cover the $2 billion reduction this year from the Proposition 98 formula.
    Or, the remaining $1.7 billion could pay the salaries of about 31,000 teachers and reduce per student ratios, or it could furnish 2.8 million new computers—enough computers for about half of the state’s students.
    Prevent educational shortfalls estimated at $9.8 billion over the past four years that have impacted on “…class size, teacher layoffs, shorter library hours and fewer counselors, nurses, custodians and groundskeepers.” (See Los Angeles Times, March 11, 2005)”

    http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=17193&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1901

    You Kerner fit the mold of “Defenders of illegal aliens” – but you have no facts, only an argument that is lacking substance – it’s all hot air – it hurts the states who have to carry the burden.

    Kerner, go and hit the site, see where your state falls.

  • Grace

    Breaking the Piggy Bank: How Illegal Immigration is Sending Schools Into the Red

    The calculation of the number of children of illegal aliens in the K-12 public school system indicates that more than 15 percent of California’s students are children of illegal aliens, as are more than ten percent of the students in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Nevada, and Texas. More than five percent of the students are the children of illegal aliens in Florida, Georgia, Kansas, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, and Washington.

    Defenders of illegal aliens assert that the cost of educating illegal alien students is offset by the taxes paid by their parents, but study after study shows that immigrants cost taxpayers much more in public services used than they pay into the system via taxes. This is particularly true of illegal immigrants, who are disproportionately low-skilled and thus low-earning and are much more likely to be working in the underground economy or providing contractual services and not withholding taxes.

    Another excerpt -

    “In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 20045 education budget—could:

    Cover the education budget shortfall for the 2004-05 school year, estimated by the Legislative Analyst Office at $6 billion and nearly cover the $2 billion reduction this year from the Proposition 98 formula.
    Or, the remaining $1.7 billion could pay the salaries of about 31,000 teachers and reduce per student ratios, or it could furnish 2.8 million new computers—enough computers for about half of the state’s students.
    Prevent educational shortfalls estimated at $9.8 billion over the past four years that have impacted on “…class size, teacher layoffs, shorter library hours and fewer counselors, nurses, custodians and groundskeepers.” (See Los Angeles Times, March 11, 2005)”

    http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=17193&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1901

    You Kerner fit the mold of “Defenders of illegal aliens” – but you have no facts, only an argument that is lacking substance – it’s all hot air – it hurts the states who have to carry the burden.

    Kerner, go and hit the site, see where your state falls.

  • kerner

    sg @72:

    Then get rid of the free social services. Let the ones who do without them stay.

  • kerner

    sg @72:

    Then get rid of the free social services. Let the ones who do without them stay.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here are the labor force participation rates for Wisconsin.

    Look at figure 45.

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/bb/03bb/139-144.pdf

    Plenty of folks are not working.

    “Then get rid of the free social services.”

    Okay.

    “Let the ones who do without them stay.”

    No, deport them according to the law.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here are the labor force participation rates for Wisconsin.

    Look at figure 45.

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lrb/bb/03bb/139-144.pdf

    Plenty of folks are not working.

    “Then get rid of the free social services.”

    Okay.

    “Let the ones who do without them stay.”

    No, deport them according to the law.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 20045 education budget”

    Um $7.7 billion buys a lot of public ed employees. They won’t want the kids that justify their jobs to be leaving anytime soon.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 20045 education budget”

    Um $7.7 billion buys a lot of public ed employees. They won’t want the kids that justify their jobs to be leaving anytime soon.

  • Grace

    “Or, the remaining $1.7 billion could pay the salaries of about 31,000 teachers and reduce per student ratios,”

    Sg, it would certainly raise the test scores in California -

  • Grace

    “Or, the remaining $1.7 billion could pay the salaries of about 31,000 teachers and reduce per student ratios,”

    Sg, it would certainly raise the test scores in California -

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We don’t have a labor glut.”

    Totally baseless and contrary to fact statement.

    “We have a housing crash caused by FannyMay and FreddieMac, government corporations that extended loand to people who clearly couldn’t pay them,”

    Gee and who were they? Hmm.

    According to the Federal Reserve Board of San Francisco:

    “A borrower with a FICO score of less than 640 is 12.6 times more likely to be in foreclosure than a borrower with a FICO score of more than 720; for borrowers with a FICO score between 640 and 720, the odds ratio is 4.7 times compared to borrowers with the highest credit scores. We also find that race has an independent
    effect on foreclosure even after controlling for borrower income and credit score. In particular, African American borrowers were 3.3 times as likely as white borrowers to be in foreclosure, whereas Latino and Asian borrowers were 2.5 and 1.6 times respectively more likely to be in foreclosure as white borrowers.”

    http://www.frbsf.org/publications/community/wpapers/2008/wp08-05.pdf

    But yeah, we need more people from other cultures to improve the economy of this nation. Um, probably not so much.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We don’t have a labor glut.”

    Totally baseless and contrary to fact statement.

    “We have a housing crash caused by FannyMay and FreddieMac, government corporations that extended loand to people who clearly couldn’t pay them,”

    Gee and who were they? Hmm.

    According to the Federal Reserve Board of San Francisco:

    “A borrower with a FICO score of less than 640 is 12.6 times more likely to be in foreclosure than a borrower with a FICO score of more than 720; for borrowers with a FICO score between 640 and 720, the odds ratio is 4.7 times compared to borrowers with the highest credit scores. We also find that race has an independent
    effect on foreclosure even after controlling for borrower income and credit score. In particular, African American borrowers were 3.3 times as likely as white borrowers to be in foreclosure, whereas Latino and Asian borrowers were 2.5 and 1.6 times respectively more likely to be in foreclosure as white borrowers.”

    http://www.frbsf.org/publications/community/wpapers/2008/wp08-05.pdf

    But yeah, we need more people from other cultures to improve the economy of this nation. Um, probably not so much.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or, the remaining $1.7 billion could pay the salaries of about 31,000 teachers and reduce per student ratios,”

    “Sg, it would certainly raise the test scores in California”

    Got some data to back that up?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or, the remaining $1.7 billion could pay the salaries of about 31,000 teachers and reduce per student ratios,”

    “Sg, it would certainly raise the test scores in California”

    Got some data to back that up?

  • kerner

    ok sg:

    The problem with economic studies is that I don’t have the graduate degree necessary to understand all of the methodology involved, but here are two of them. What they conclude is that comprehensive immigration reform (legalizing the people who are already here and creating a legal way for more to come here to work) increases costs as you suggest, but it also causes the economy to expand and the gdp to grow at such a rate as to more than pay for it.

    On the other hand, the cost of increasing border enforcement and employer harrassment increases the cost to taxpayers (as you point out, increasing government activity causes us to spend money we don’t have) but the net result to to cause the economy to contract and the gdp to fall such that we all become poorer.

    The point being that, in the Cato Institute study at least, doing what you suggest would cost American families about a quarter of a trillion dollars.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/tpa/tpa-040.pdf

    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/01/pdf/immigrationeconreport.pdf

    Like I say, the methodology requires some post graduate education in economics to understand. I believe that here are books written that break it down more simply. I will strive to fand them, read them, and efer them to you. But what it comes down to is that it doesn’t help to save money on social services if you are just going to spend a lot on enforcement anyway, and end up contracting the economy to the point we all lose money.

    The general principles make a lot of sense to me, which is why I have been arguing them all night.

  • kerner

    ok sg:

    The problem with economic studies is that I don’t have the graduate degree necessary to understand all of the methodology involved, but here are two of them. What they conclude is that comprehensive immigration reform (legalizing the people who are already here and creating a legal way for more to come here to work) increases costs as you suggest, but it also causes the economy to expand and the gdp to grow at such a rate as to more than pay for it.

    On the other hand, the cost of increasing border enforcement and employer harrassment increases the cost to taxpayers (as you point out, increasing government activity causes us to spend money we don’t have) but the net result to to cause the economy to contract and the gdp to fall such that we all become poorer.

    The point being that, in the Cato Institute study at least, doing what you suggest would cost American families about a quarter of a trillion dollars.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/tpa/tpa-040.pdf

    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/01/pdf/immigrationeconreport.pdf

    Like I say, the methodology requires some post graduate education in economics to understand. I believe that here are books written that break it down more simply. I will strive to fand them, read them, and efer them to you. But what it comes down to is that it doesn’t help to save money on social services if you are just going to spend a lot on enforcement anyway, and end up contracting the economy to the point we all lose money.

    The general principles make a lot of sense to me, which is why I have been arguing them all night.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, I have read plenty on economics. But you don’t need all that, just common sense. Importing low earning/low performing folks that have very high dependency ratios is not going to make you rich. Look, before I went through tons of the data, I actually agreed with your position. However, after looking at hard data from the government agencies that collect it, I just don’t see it. How exactly can a growing share of lower performing people improve life for themselves and the middle class? I get that the rich will be fine, but a shrinking middle class is not a wonderful idea. Importing folks whose incarceration numbers have increased 50% in ten years, is not going to make a great society. The liberal magical thinking that everything is just going to work out is just bull. Clearly it isn’t working out. The costs go up. Incarceration rates are going up. Per capita spending up. Educational performance has not improved. There is no evidence that these ideas have any basis in reality. No data support what liberals believe. If we are just talking legal immigration from high performing screened individuals, cool. Unscreened illegals including criminals just waltzing over the borders, no way. That is nuts. And we have mountains of data that show its failure as a policy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, I have read plenty on economics. But you don’t need all that, just common sense. Importing low earning/low performing folks that have very high dependency ratios is not going to make you rich. Look, before I went through tons of the data, I actually agreed with your position. However, after looking at hard data from the government agencies that collect it, I just don’t see it. How exactly can a growing share of lower performing people improve life for themselves and the middle class? I get that the rich will be fine, but a shrinking middle class is not a wonderful idea. Importing folks whose incarceration numbers have increased 50% in ten years, is not going to make a great society. The liberal magical thinking that everything is just going to work out is just bull. Clearly it isn’t working out. The costs go up. Incarceration rates are going up. Per capita spending up. Educational performance has not improved. There is no evidence that these ideas have any basis in reality. No data support what liberals believe. If we are just talking legal immigration from high performing screened individuals, cool. Unscreened illegals including criminals just waltzing over the borders, no way. That is nuts. And we have mountains of data that show its failure as a policy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I skimmed the first article. It was really long. Anyway, no mention of the impact of crime. I agree with some of their data, but they leave out whole areas of discussion like increase in violent crime and costs for police, security and prisons with increasing the proportion of violent populations. Also curiously absent is the low performance and labor participation rates of the the next generation. Unlike other immigrant groups, subsequent generations born of illegals have even lower performance in labor participation and academic achievement. Nothing on dependency rates. It is hard to take the methods seriously when they ignore so much data.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I skimmed the first article. It was really long. Anyway, no mention of the impact of crime. I agree with some of their data, but they leave out whole areas of discussion like increase in violent crime and costs for police, security and prisons with increasing the proportion of violent populations. Also curiously absent is the low performance and labor participation rates of the the next generation. Unlike other immigrant groups, subsequent generations born of illegals have even lower performance in labor participation and academic achievement. Nothing on dependency rates. It is hard to take the methods seriously when they ignore so much data.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    While the subject of education is on the table, I read the following article: It is well researched, statistically responsible (that one is especially just for you, sg :) ) and all that:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/12/your-child-left-behind/8310/

    Here is the short version: Rescuing American education is NOT ABOUT MONEY, NOR IMMIGRANTS, NOR RACE, NOR POLITICAL ORIENTATION. (I’m following Grace’s example here, capitalising…).

    It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in comparitive international testing:

    Yes, it is, OH MY! – MASSACHUSETTS!!!!

    And no Grace, the change had nothing to do with immigrants, illegal or otherwise. Read the article.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    While the subject of education is on the table, I read the following article: It is well researched, statistically responsible (that one is especially just for you, sg :) ) and all that:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/12/your-child-left-behind/8310/

    Here is the short version: Rescuing American education is NOT ABOUT MONEY, NOR IMMIGRANTS, NOR RACE, NOR POLITICAL ORIENTATION. (I’m following Grace’s example here, capitalising…).

    It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in comparitive international testing:

    Yes, it is, OH MY! – MASSACHUSETTS!!!!

    And no Grace, the change had nothing to do with immigrants, illegal or otherwise. Read the article.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 66: E-Verify is hardly a national ID card. It uses existing data that is already in the system — no ID card needed. It’s probably considerably less intrusive than the typical credit bureau check that the average employer already runs on prospective employees.

    Look, I am willing to consider reasonable legal measures to address the current problems we have with over 10 million illegal aliens in country. But unless those measures include a dismantling of the social welfare system, so that illegals are not disproportionately taking resources away from citizens, full federal reimbursement to border states for impact costs due to federal immigration policy, and robust measures for ensuring national security despite a relatively lax immigration policy and poor in-country monitoring, then I am not interested. And to compare the impact on Wisconsin of illegal immigration to the impacts on California, Arizona, and Texas is telling indeed. I didn’t realize things were so bad in Canada.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 66: E-Verify is hardly a national ID card. It uses existing data that is already in the system — no ID card needed. It’s probably considerably less intrusive than the typical credit bureau check that the average employer already runs on prospective employees.

    Look, I am willing to consider reasonable legal measures to address the current problems we have with over 10 million illegal aliens in country. But unless those measures include a dismantling of the social welfare system, so that illegals are not disproportionately taking resources away from citizens, full federal reimbursement to border states for impact costs due to federal immigration policy, and robust measures for ensuring national security despite a relatively lax immigration policy and poor in-country monitoring, then I am not interested. And to compare the impact on Wisconsin of illegal immigration to the impacts on California, Arizona, and Texas is telling indeed. I didn’t realize things were so bad in Canada.

  • DonS

    Kerner: I should have added that any proposed solution had better adequately address the extreme unfairness that has been perpetrated on legal immigrants and those waiting for years to enter the country legally. The only thing we have taught these good people by our intentional failure to enforce our own laws is that they are suckers for caring to do things the right way. Shame on us.

  • DonS

    Kerner: I should have added that any proposed solution had better adequately address the extreme unfairness that has been perpetrated on legal immigrants and those waiting for years to enter the country legally. The only thing we have taught these good people by our intentional failure to enforce our own laws is that they are suckers for caring to do things the right way. Shame on us.

  • Porcell

    Don S, I’m with you on your view of California’s disastrous fiscal situation An even worse problem is Silicon valley’s ideological sell out to the pieties of green energy. For a cogent analysis of this see George Gilder’s WSJ piece on this today, California’s Destructive Green Jobs Lobby
    Silicon Valley, once synonymous with productivity-enhancing innovation, is now looking to make money on feel-good government handouts.
    .

    The chilling part of the article is that California’s problems are so severe that they have thhhe potential to drag down the whole nation.

  • Porcell

    Don S, I’m with you on your view of California’s disastrous fiscal situation An even worse problem is Silicon valley’s ideological sell out to the pieties of green energy. For a cogent analysis of this see George Gilder’s WSJ piece on this today, California’s Destructive Green Jobs Lobby
    Silicon Valley, once synonymous with productivity-enhancing innovation, is now looking to make money on feel-good government handouts.
    .

    The chilling part of the article is that California’s problems are so severe that they have thhhe potential to drag down the whole nation.

  • kerner

    Don S:

    The American Progress study cited @81 notes that the budget of the US Border Patrol had in creased by 714% since 1992. So, in response to this “problem” we have already grown the size of government by a huge amount. All to no avail of course, because the government is fighting the laws of supply and demand.

    The “problem” could be largely solved by adopting an immigration policy allowing for guest workers in a manner consistent with the laws of supply and demand, but OH NO. Anti-immigrantion types argue for a different solution:

    Grow the size of government even more! Throw even MORE money we don’t have away into government programs that have never worked. Increase regulation and harrassment of American businesses even MORE, thus adding to their operating costs and depressing their ability to create jobs and prosperity.

    These are NOT conservative solutions. The conservative solution is to adopt a policy that is consistent with the laws of supply and demand rather than fighting them.

    As for the “unfortunate aliens waiting in line”, for productive aliens without post graduate education, THERE IS NO LINE. Or at least, the line is so long you can’t get to the front during your productive lifetime.

    Right now our policy is to allow entry to people who are not necessarily productive: family members and refugees. It is much easier for an alien to marry an American, and then petition to bring his parents to this country. The line for parents is much shorter, so let’s say Mom and Dad arrive at age 58. At age 63 they become eligible to become citizens and sign up for social security and all the other benefits available to elderly citizens. Our policy should be modified to include the industrious young (those who have a good long working life ahead of them before they have any hope of getting government benefits and who will hopefully teach the virtues of industiousness to their children), so that they grow American business and the economy and thereby increase both wealth and tax revenue.

  • kerner

    Don S:

    The American Progress study cited @81 notes that the budget of the US Border Patrol had in creased by 714% since 1992. So, in response to this “problem” we have already grown the size of government by a huge amount. All to no avail of course, because the government is fighting the laws of supply and demand.

    The “problem” could be largely solved by adopting an immigration policy allowing for guest workers in a manner consistent with the laws of supply and demand, but OH NO. Anti-immigrantion types argue for a different solution:

    Grow the size of government even more! Throw even MORE money we don’t have away into government programs that have never worked. Increase regulation and harrassment of American businesses even MORE, thus adding to their operating costs and depressing their ability to create jobs and prosperity.

    These are NOT conservative solutions. The conservative solution is to adopt a policy that is consistent with the laws of supply and demand rather than fighting them.

    As for the “unfortunate aliens waiting in line”, for productive aliens without post graduate education, THERE IS NO LINE. Or at least, the line is so long you can’t get to the front during your productive lifetime.

    Right now our policy is to allow entry to people who are not necessarily productive: family members and refugees. It is much easier for an alien to marry an American, and then petition to bring his parents to this country. The line for parents is much shorter, so let’s say Mom and Dad arrive at age 58. At age 63 they become eligible to become citizens and sign up for social security and all the other benefits available to elderly citizens. Our policy should be modified to include the industrious young (those who have a good long working life ahead of them before they have any hope of getting government benefits and who will hopefully teach the virtues of industiousness to their children), so that they grow American business and the economy and thereby increase both wealth and tax revenue.

  • helen

    sg @ 71
    The football team makes money for the athletic department, they tell me. [I do follow this, although this year it's more fun to read about last year's QB, who is doing alright for Cleveland!]

  • helen

    sg @ 71
    The football team makes money for the athletic department, they tell me. [I do follow this, although this year it's more fun to read about last year's QB, who is doing alright for Cleveland!]

  • helen

    It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in compar[a]tive international testing:
    Massachusetts.

    What % of their students are illegals or children of illegals?

    If a teacher with “high standards” has a classroom full of “students” whose culture doesn’t respect learning, whose parents only have them in day school because they are less likely to be shot or be dealing drugs than in their public school & who are actively courting expulsion so they can go back to their public school friends, that teacher can set all the “high outcomes” in the world and it won’t move those students to do a thing.
    [Expelling 3 or 4 of the worst might have settled some of the rest down but it wasn't done for the same reason the public schools don't do it. Each warm body brings in tuition/tax money.]

    Been there. Wish all the people “setting high standards” for teachers would first spend some time in the same sort of place!

  • helen

    It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in compar[a]tive international testing:
    Massachusetts.

    What % of their students are illegals or children of illegals?

    If a teacher with “high standards” has a classroom full of “students” whose culture doesn’t respect learning, whose parents only have them in day school because they are less likely to be shot or be dealing drugs than in their public school & who are actively courting expulsion so they can go back to their public school friends, that teacher can set all the “high outcomes” in the world and it won’t move those students to do a thing.
    [Expelling 3 or 4 of the worst might have settled some of the rest down but it wasn't done for the same reason the public schools don't do it. Each warm body brings in tuition/tax money.]

    Been there. Wish all the people “setting high standards” for teachers would first spend some time in the same sort of place!

  • Louis

    Helen – read the article. The statistics are telling. MT clawed its way up after many years in the doldrums.

    BTW, here in Canada, children of immigrants have the lowest drop-out figure of all groups. And that includes all immigrants, from Somali’s to Scots.

  • Louis

    Helen – read the article. The statistics are telling. MT clawed its way up after many years in the doldrums.

    BTW, here in Canada, children of immigrants have the lowest drop-out figure of all groups. And that includes all immigrants, from Somali’s to Scots.

  • helen

    Louis,
    Thank you. There is no doubt that the US should be getting more learning (and fewer ‘experiments’!) for its education dollars.

  • helen

    Louis,
    Thank you. There is no doubt that the US should be getting more learning (and fewer ‘experiments’!) for its education dollars.

  • DonS

    Porcell @ 87: You are absolutely right, thought it’s not yet the worst problem California faces. It could be in the future, however, as AB 32 (the infamous global warming bill) and its horrendous provisions begin to take hold. Because Silicon Valley is notoriously left-wing, it is the golden valley to the press and government. Its greedy grab for green energy subsidies and goodies is a little secret not widely disseminated by our selective press. The recent Proposition 23, which sought to suspend AB 32 until our unemployment rate descended to the reasonable level of 5.5% from its current sky high level of about 12.5% was maligned as being a play by “big oil” to dirty our skies. In fact, the anti-23 campaign was funded to a 5-1 advantage by “Big Green”, a coalition of Move-On.org type Silicon Valley billionaires intent on bankrupting their fellow Californians to line their own pockets. Disgraceful!

  • DonS

    Porcell @ 87: You are absolutely right, thought it’s not yet the worst problem California faces. It could be in the future, however, as AB 32 (the infamous global warming bill) and its horrendous provisions begin to take hold. Because Silicon Valley is notoriously left-wing, it is the golden valley to the press and government. Its greedy grab for green energy subsidies and goodies is a little secret not widely disseminated by our selective press. The recent Proposition 23, which sought to suspend AB 32 until our unemployment rate descended to the reasonable level of 5.5% from its current sky high level of about 12.5% was maligned as being a play by “big oil” to dirty our skies. In fact, the anti-23 campaign was funded to a 5-1 advantage by “Big Green”, a coalition of Move-On.org type Silicon Valley billionaires intent on bankrupting their fellow Californians to line their own pockets. Disgraceful!

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 88: The ramping up of the border patrol to historic levels is a ridiculous ploy by those who are trying to show their support for our immigration laws without actually doing anything. As I have stated above numerous times by now, effective enforcement means making sure that people don’t come into the country under false pretenses and then stay illegally. Enforcement is necessary in-country, and we are unwilling to do that, to our shame and detriment.

    If we do things the right way, such as by effectively using programs like E-Verify, and by profiling appropriately, then the measures aren’t that intrusive. They become intrusive, similarly to the present issues we have with airport security, when we refuse to use the skills our trained agents have acquired to investigate the most likely leads, opting, for PC purposes, to instead wastefully, stupidly, and ineffectively inconvenience everyone.

    I agree with you about guest workers. What Kennedy got rid of was the bracero program. This is exactly the kind of program that should be reinstated. As for the length of the lines for legal immigration, this is because so many “jump” them by entering illegally. If we truly had a robust and effective means of enforcing our immigration laws, thus controlling illegal immigration, we would have the capacity and likely the political will to sharply increase our legal immigration. I’m all for that, as I believe America is the land of opportunity and should be open for those who want to come and be productive, contributing Americans.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 88: The ramping up of the border patrol to historic levels is a ridiculous ploy by those who are trying to show their support for our immigration laws without actually doing anything. As I have stated above numerous times by now, effective enforcement means making sure that people don’t come into the country under false pretenses and then stay illegally. Enforcement is necessary in-country, and we are unwilling to do that, to our shame and detriment.

    If we do things the right way, such as by effectively using programs like E-Verify, and by profiling appropriately, then the measures aren’t that intrusive. They become intrusive, similarly to the present issues we have with airport security, when we refuse to use the skills our trained agents have acquired to investigate the most likely leads, opting, for PC purposes, to instead wastefully, stupidly, and ineffectively inconvenience everyone.

    I agree with you about guest workers. What Kennedy got rid of was the bracero program. This is exactly the kind of program that should be reinstated. As for the length of the lines for legal immigration, this is because so many “jump” them by entering illegally. If we truly had a robust and effective means of enforcing our immigration laws, thus controlling illegal immigration, we would have the capacity and likely the political will to sharply increase our legal immigration. I’m all for that, as I believe America is the land of opportunity and should be open for those who want to come and be productive, contributing Americans.

  • Louis
  • Louis
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And that includes all immigrants, from Somali’s to Scots.”

    Cool. Could you post a link.?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And that includes all immigrants, from Somali’s to Scots.”

    Cool. Could you post a link.?

  • Louis

    sg – no, it was a news item on the evening news a couple of days ago. I’ll try, but I can’t promise…

  • Louis

    sg – no, it was a news item on the evening news a couple of days ago. I’ll try, but I can’t promise…

  • Louis

    sg – Not very comprehensive, but try this one:

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/101103/dq101103a-eng.htm

    Note that it doesn’t differentiate between origin of the immigrant. But the main origin of Immigrants to Canada in 2006 are:

    Europe 16.1%
    USA 3.5%
    Asia 58.3%
    Latin America 10.8%
    Africa 10.6%

  • Louis

    sg – Not very comprehensive, but try this one:

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/101103/dq101103a-eng.htm

    Note that it doesn’t differentiate between origin of the immigrant. But the main origin of Immigrants to Canada in 2006 are:

    Europe 16.1%
    USA 3.5%
    Asia 58.3%
    Latin America 10.8%
    Africa 10.6%

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in comparitive international testing.”

    Two things, Louis.

    First, ironically the whole thing was based on PISA which is the test that Ruston, Vanhanen and others used and whose studies were roundly criticized when I cited them.

    Second, everyone already knows that we could increase achievement by raising standards. However, if you do that, it exacerbates the achievement gap. The achievement gap is hobgoblin of American education. Google achievement gap and see what you get. Sure, nearly homogenous countries can focus on pushing the talented to new heights because they don’t track (and obsess over) the achievement differences of minorities like we do.

    Check out NAEP
    http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/Default.aspx

    Texas compares quite favorably to Massachusetts and spends about half as much per student. Massachusetts has about double the number of top performers and about double the percentage of white/Asian students as Texas. Just coincidence of course.

    I dug and dug for the actual data from the article you linked. I found it here:

    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG10-19_HanushekPetersonWoessmann.pdf

    Check out the bar graphs on p.17
    Better still, read the whole thing. The article you linked was the mass media spin report on the actual paper.

    Notice all other countries totals are compared to US whites, even though the other countries get to count their Asians. And we are all just not supposed to notice? What, like we can’t read the title of the graph?

    This study seems to be gaming the fact that Asians students consistently do better than whites in math. If our Asians had been included, our percentages of high scorers would have been higher, too. Duh.

    Since they used the same test, it is no surprise they got the same results as Lynn and Vanhanen.

    The study is basically just the PC whitewashed spin version of IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in comparitive international testing.”

    Two things, Louis.

    First, ironically the whole thing was based on PISA which is the test that Ruston, Vanhanen and others used and whose studies were roundly criticized when I cited them.

    Second, everyone already knows that we could increase achievement by raising standards. However, if you do that, it exacerbates the achievement gap. The achievement gap is hobgoblin of American education. Google achievement gap and see what you get. Sure, nearly homogenous countries can focus on pushing the talented to new heights because they don’t track (and obsess over) the achievement differences of minorities like we do.

    Check out NAEP
    http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/Default.aspx

    Texas compares quite favorably to Massachusetts and spends about half as much per student. Massachusetts has about double the number of top performers and about double the percentage of white/Asian students as Texas. Just coincidence of course.

    I dug and dug for the actual data from the article you linked. I found it here:

    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG10-19_HanushekPetersonWoessmann.pdf

    Check out the bar graphs on p.17
    Better still, read the whole thing. The article you linked was the mass media spin report on the actual paper.

    Notice all other countries totals are compared to US whites, even though the other countries get to count their Asians. And we are all just not supposed to notice? What, like we can’t read the title of the graph?

    This study seems to be gaming the fact that Asians students consistently do better than whites in math. If our Asians had been included, our percentages of high scorers would have been higher, too. Duh.

    Since they used the same test, it is no surprise they got the same results as Lynn and Vanhanen.

    The study is basically just the PC whitewashed spin version of IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Note that it doesn’t differentiate between origin of the immigrant.”

    That’s the money quote.

    “But the main origin of Immigrants to Canada in 2006 are:

    Europe 16.1%
    USA 3.5%
    Asia 58.3%
    Latin America 10.8%
    Africa 10.6%”

    Sha whee. About 3/4′s of all immigrants are from Europe or Asia. Those folks do well here, too. Sure would be interesting to compare the achievement and incomes of Euro and Asian immigrants to Canada to the that of Euro and Asian immigrants to the USA.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Note that it doesn’t differentiate between origin of the immigrant.”

    That’s the money quote.

    “But the main origin of Immigrants to Canada in 2006 are:

    Europe 16.1%
    USA 3.5%
    Asia 58.3%
    Latin America 10.8%
    Africa 10.6%”

    Sha whee. About 3/4′s of all immigrants are from Europe or Asia. Those folks do well here, too. Sure would be interesting to compare the achievement and incomes of Euro and Asian immigrants to Canada to the that of Euro and Asian immigrants to the USA.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oops, I needed to break up that last comment:

    “It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in comparitive international testing.”

    Two things, Louis.

    First, ironically the whole thing was based on PISA which is the test that Ruston, Vanhanen and others used and whose studies were roundly criticized when I cited them.

    Second, everyone already knows that we could increase achievement by raising standards. However, if you do that, it exacerbates the achievement gap. The achievement gap is hobgoblin of American education. Google achievement gap and see what you get. Sure, nearly homogenous countries can focus on pushing the talented to new heights because they don’t track (and obsess over) the achievement differences of minorities like we do.

    Check out NAEP
    http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/Default.aspx

    Texas compares quite favorably to Massachusetts and spends about half as much per student. Massachusetts has about double the number of top performers and about double the percentage of white/Asian students as Texas. Just coincidence of course.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oops, I needed to break up that last comment:

    “It is about demanding high standards from teachers, and setting high outcomes for students. Guess which state, based on this approach, turned their education around, and now scores the highest of all US states in comparitive international testing.”

    Two things, Louis.

    First, ironically the whole thing was based on PISA which is the test that Ruston, Vanhanen and others used and whose studies were roundly criticized when I cited them.

    Second, everyone already knows that we could increase achievement by raising standards. However, if you do that, it exacerbates the achievement gap. The achievement gap is hobgoblin of American education. Google achievement gap and see what you get. Sure, nearly homogenous countries can focus on pushing the talented to new heights because they don’t track (and obsess over) the achievement differences of minorities like we do.

    Check out NAEP
    http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/Default.aspx

    Texas compares quite favorably to Massachusetts and spends about half as much per student. Massachusetts has about double the number of top performers and about double the percentage of white/Asian students as Texas. Just coincidence of course.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I dug and dug for the actual data from the article you linked. I found it here:

    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG10-19_HanushekPetersonWoessmann.pdf

    Check out the bar graphs on p.17
    Better still, read the whole thing. The article you linked was the mass media spin report on the actual paper.

    Notice all other countries totals are compared to US whites, even though the other countries get to count their Asians. And we are all just not supposed to notice? What, like we can’t read the title of the graph?

    This study seems to be gaming the fact that Asians students consistently do better than whites in math. If our Asians had been included, our percentages of high scorers would have been higher, too. Duh.

    Since they used the same test, it is no surprise they got the same results as Lynn and Vanhanen.

    The study is basically just the PC whitewashed spin version of IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I dug and dug for the actual data from the article you linked. I found it here:

    http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG10-19_HanushekPetersonWoessmann.pdf

    Check out the bar graphs on p.17
    Better still, read the whole thing. The article you linked was the mass media spin report on the actual paper.

    Notice all other countries totals are compared to US whites, even though the other countries get to count their Asians. And we are all just not supposed to notice? What, like we can’t read the title of the graph?

    This study seems to be gaming the fact that Asians students consistently do better than whites in math. If our Asians had been included, our percentages of high scorers would have been higher, too. Duh.

    Since they used the same test, it is no surprise they got the same results as Lynn and Vanhanen.

    The study is basically just the PC whitewashed spin version of IQ and the Wealth of Nations.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

  • Louis

    sg@99: “About 3/4′s of all immigrants are from Europe or Asia.” Actually closer to 2/3. What is true is that 3/4 of all immigrants are from Asia, Africa & Latin America.

    Emphasis tells a lot about presuppositions :)

    Also, sg, if you read the whole thing, you’d realise that there is not a significant change between all students and white students only compare tables 1 & 2. The same goes for urban / non-urban students, or students with at least one parent with a college degree.

    also, your remark about Asian students doesn’t work all that well – with the exception of the Asian countries themselves, Canada, Australia and the UK the other countries do not have a significant Asian component.

    I do not see the significant “mass media spin” you complain about in the article in The Atlantic. I’m afraid you are seeing what you want to see. Maybe we should get a fact guru like webmonk to analyse the situation ;)

  • Louis

    sg@99: “About 3/4′s of all immigrants are from Europe or Asia.” Actually closer to 2/3. What is true is that 3/4 of all immigrants are from Asia, Africa & Latin America.

    Emphasis tells a lot about presuppositions :)

    Also, sg, if you read the whole thing, you’d realise that there is not a significant change between all students and white students only compare tables 1 & 2. The same goes for urban / non-urban students, or students with at least one parent with a college degree.

    also, your remark about Asian students doesn’t work all that well – with the exception of the Asian countries themselves, Canada, Australia and the UK the other countries do not have a significant Asian component.

    I do not see the significant “mass media spin” you complain about in the article in The Atlantic. I’m afraid you are seeing what you want to see. Maybe we should get a fact guru like webmonk to analyse the situation ;)

  • Louis

    Then your last comment at 101: A key factor in the “study” you quote is the assumption that IQ tests are culturally neutral – this is complete nonsense. A valid study would have to do the following:

    1. Develop culturally relevant IQ tests for each country – No – for each ethno-linguistic cultural grouping within a country.
    2. Adjust for environment – ie, the availability for stimulation etc (known to play a role in IQ).
    3. Adjust for developmental stage – for instance, the same article noes that the average US IQ in the early part of the 20th century would have been 70, compared to 98 today.

    Of course, a study of such clarity and rigour is nigh impossible, being prohibitively expensive for one thing.

    Thus the IQ – race thing, which underlies your post, is in essence an uninformed presupposition. It does not bear proper scientific scrutiny.

  • Louis

    Then your last comment at 101: A key factor in the “study” you quote is the assumption that IQ tests are culturally neutral – this is complete nonsense. A valid study would have to do the following:

    1. Develop culturally relevant IQ tests for each country – No – for each ethno-linguistic cultural grouping within a country.
    2. Adjust for environment – ie, the availability for stimulation etc (known to play a role in IQ).
    3. Adjust for developmental stage – for instance, the same article noes that the average US IQ in the early part of the 20th century would have been 70, compared to 98 today.

    Of course, a study of such clarity and rigour is nigh impossible, being prohibitively expensive for one thing.

    Thus the IQ – race thing, which underlies your post, is in essence an uninformed presupposition. It does not bear proper scientific scrutiny.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Emphasis tells a lot about presuppositions”

    Really, you are the one with the presuppositions.
    I don’t mean that smart alecky at all. It seems you really presuppose that if kids have better teaching, then everyone will come out closer to equal in performance.

    I started with your presuppositions. Unfortunately the data don’t support them. So, rather than stick with prejudice, I looked at the facts.

    Louis, did you even read the report?

    I don’t mean the Atlantic article about the report. I mean the actual report. If you didn’t read the report, then you are the one with presuppositions.

    Anyway, what is with constantly making it personal? It is not about me. It is about the data.

    I criticized some of the way the data was presented and you turn around and criticize me with the backhanded presuppositions remark. That is just goofy.

    Anyway, countries don’t need to have a lot of Asians to influence a test like PISA. Look at the where the authors say the cutoff is for one standard deviation. I understand it isn’t possible for most Euro nations to disaggregate their data, but you can’t just assume the Asians make no difference. Every math test shows that the higher the cutoff the more the Asians dominate. Asians are 5.5% of the US high school seniors but a whopping 1/3 of students with a top score of 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam. So it is inaccurate to say, it doesn’t matter because there are too few. It matters.
    http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/ap-report-to-the-nation-2008.pdf pp. 7, 49-50

    “sg@99: “About 3/4′s of all immigrants are from Europe or Asia.” Actually closer to 2/3. What is true is that 3/4 of all immigrants are from Asia, Africa & Latin America

    Look at the numbers you posted. 58.3 + 16.1 = 74.4

    I am pretty sure that 74.4 is closer to 75 that it is to 66.7

    But better ask webmonk just to be sure. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Emphasis tells a lot about presuppositions”

    Really, you are the one with the presuppositions.
    I don’t mean that smart alecky at all. It seems you really presuppose that if kids have better teaching, then everyone will come out closer to equal in performance.

    I started with your presuppositions. Unfortunately the data don’t support them. So, rather than stick with prejudice, I looked at the facts.

    Louis, did you even read the report?

    I don’t mean the Atlantic article about the report. I mean the actual report. If you didn’t read the report, then you are the one with presuppositions.

    Anyway, what is with constantly making it personal? It is not about me. It is about the data.

    I criticized some of the way the data was presented and you turn around and criticize me with the backhanded presuppositions remark. That is just goofy.

    Anyway, countries don’t need to have a lot of Asians to influence a test like PISA. Look at the where the authors say the cutoff is for one standard deviation. I understand it isn’t possible for most Euro nations to disaggregate their data, but you can’t just assume the Asians make no difference. Every math test shows that the higher the cutoff the more the Asians dominate. Asians are 5.5% of the US high school seniors but a whopping 1/3 of students with a top score of 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam. So it is inaccurate to say, it doesn’t matter because there are too few. It matters.
    http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/ap-report-to-the-nation-2008.pdf pp. 7, 49-50

    “sg@99: “About 3/4′s of all immigrants are from Europe or Asia.” Actually closer to 2/3. What is true is that 3/4 of all immigrants are from Asia, Africa & Latin America

    Look at the numbers you posted. 58.3 + 16.1 = 74.4

    I am pretty sure that 74.4 is closer to 75 that it is to 66.7

    But better ask webmonk just to be sure. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Then your last comment at 101: A key factor in the “study” you quote is the assumption that IQ tests are culturally neutral – this is complete nonsense.”

    Okay, so why do Asians beat whites on tests developed by whites in white countries?

    Like I said. You are the one with the presuppositions.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Then your last comment at 101: A key factor in the “study” you quote is the assumption that IQ tests are culturally neutral – this is complete nonsense.”

    Okay, so why do Asians beat whites on tests developed by whites in white countries?

    Like I said. You are the one with the presuppositions.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Thus the IQ – race thing, which underlies your post, is in essence an uninformed presupposition.”

    It is not presupposition. It is conclusion based on evidence.

    “It does not bear proper scientific scrutiny.”

    Sure it does. The data are all there. What doesn’t bear proper scientific scrutiny are your presuppositions that there is some other factor as yet unidentified that provides a reasonable explanation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Thus the IQ – race thing, which underlies your post, is in essence an uninformed presupposition.”

    It is not presupposition. It is conclusion based on evidence.

    “It does not bear proper scientific scrutiny.”

    Sure it does. The data are all there. What doesn’t bear proper scientific scrutiny are your presuppositions that there is some other factor as yet unidentified that provides a reasonable explanation.

  • Grace

    I found this interesting from USA TODAY:

    SAT scores show disparities by race, gender, family income Updated 8/26/2009

    By Mary Beth Marklein, USA TODAY

    “Average national SAT scores for the high school class of 2009 dropped two points compared with last year, a report out today says. And while the population of test takers was the most diverse ever, average scores vary widely by race and ethnicity.
    On one end, students who identified themselves as Asian, Asian-American or Pacific Islander posted a 13-point gain. On the other end, students who identified themselves as Puerto Rican posted a 9-point drop in average scores.”

    Chaka SAT scores show disparities by race

  • Grace

    I found this interesting from USA TODAY:

    SAT scores show disparities by race, gender, family income Updated 8/26/2009

    By Mary Beth Marklein, USA TODAY

    “Average national SAT scores for the high school class of 2009 dropped two points compared with last year, a report out today says. And while the population of test takers was the most diverse ever, average scores vary widely by race and ethnicity.
    On one end, students who identified themselves as Asian, Asian-American or Pacific Islander posted a 13-point gain. On the other end, students who identified themselves as Puerto Rican posted a 9-point drop in average scores.”

    Chaka SAT scores show disparities by race

  • Grace

    USA TODAY

    Why are Asian-Americans outperforming everybody else on SAT?

    Posted 8/25/2009

    Here’s what struck me first about this year’s SAT scores, released today: Only one racial category came close to matching average score increases for Asian, Asian-American and Pacific Islander students.
    That group comprised 10% of SAT takers this year, and its total score was up 13 points.

    The next highest increase? A category called “no response.” It was up 12 points and represented 4% of test takers.

    College Board officials said the increases in the Asian category this year (up 3 points in critical reading, 6 points in math and 4 points in writing) were nothing noteworthy (reading scores increased 7 points in 2003, for example).

    But I wasn’t the only one to notice them. Bob Schaeffer, who crunches SAT data for FairTest, said he rechecked his numbers for accuracy when he first saw them. And Seppy Basili, senior vice president of Kaplan, called the increases “significant” and “remarkable.”

    Disparities in scores among all races over 10 years are just as striking. Here’s what Kaplan Test Prep came up with when looking at 10-year changes in combined math and critical reading scores:

    Race 1999 2009 +/-

    Asian 1058 1103 +45
    White 1055 1064 +9
    Latino 927 916 -11
    Black 856 855 -1

    Why are Asian-Americans outperforming everybody else on SAT?

  • Grace

    USA TODAY

    Why are Asian-Americans outperforming everybody else on SAT?

    Posted 8/25/2009

    Here’s what struck me first about this year’s SAT scores, released today: Only one racial category came close to matching average score increases for Asian, Asian-American and Pacific Islander students.
    That group comprised 10% of SAT takers this year, and its total score was up 13 points.

    The next highest increase? A category called “no response.” It was up 12 points and represented 4% of test takers.

    College Board officials said the increases in the Asian category this year (up 3 points in critical reading, 6 points in math and 4 points in writing) were nothing noteworthy (reading scores increased 7 points in 2003, for example).

    But I wasn’t the only one to notice them. Bob Schaeffer, who crunches SAT data for FairTest, said he rechecked his numbers for accuracy when he first saw them. And Seppy Basili, senior vice president of Kaplan, called the increases “significant” and “remarkable.”

    Disparities in scores among all races over 10 years are just as striking. Here’s what Kaplan Test Prep came up with when looking at 10-year changes in combined math and critical reading scores:

    Race 1999 2009 +/-

    Asian 1058 1103 +45
    White 1055 1064 +9
    Latino 927 916 -11
    Black 856 855 -1

    Why are Asian-Americans outperforming everybody else on SAT?

  • The Jungle Cat

    I’ve written about this elsewhere, but when Rahm Emanuel begins his mayoral campaign by saying that Chicago cannot even afford to talk about raising taxes, it’s a relatively strong indication that the country is taking a firm turn rightward. Federalism and economic caculation are as important as political expediency in this trend: With taxes as high in New York, Illinois and California as any place in the nation, these states have to work very hard now to dissuade business from moving to New Jersey, Indiana and Texas. If they want to keep revenues coming in, the governors of these states will pretty much have to limit spending. While an unprincipled nationalization might have been expedient at the height of the economic crisis in 2008, it appears now that the people are more concerned about government overreach than corporate predation. For this reason, a leftward turn seems like a deadend. (We’ll have to wait to see, though, if the landscape is still like this in 2012.)

  • The Jungle Cat

    I’ve written about this elsewhere, but when Rahm Emanuel begins his mayoral campaign by saying that Chicago cannot even afford to talk about raising taxes, it’s a relatively strong indication that the country is taking a firm turn rightward. Federalism and economic caculation are as important as political expediency in this trend: With taxes as high in New York, Illinois and California as any place in the nation, these states have to work very hard now to dissuade business from moving to New Jersey, Indiana and Texas. If they want to keep revenues coming in, the governors of these states will pretty much have to limit spending. While an unprincipled nationalization might have been expedient at the height of the economic crisis in 2008, it appears now that the people are more concerned about government overreach than corporate predation. For this reason, a leftward turn seems like a deadend. (We’ll have to wait to see, though, if the landscape is still like this in 2012.)

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    sg – You obviously ignored my commet @ 104. I patiently explained why IQ tests are unreliable in cross-cultural comparison, for instance. People with years of education, such as my dad (40 years, in Zambia and South Africa, teaching people from different African tribes, mostly, but in later years also, other races, including students from Europe and Russia) will attest to the role of culture in, well,epistemology. And as I dais, the cost of compiling a study to test the differences accurately is prohibitive. IE APPLES AND ORANGES!

    I am not sure of your education, but a good scientist must understand the presuppositions in any statistical study, and be able to attest to how reasonable they are. Just taking a bunch of numbers on face value is scientifically irresponsible. There is tons of junk science around, like that article you linked. A study of studies is not very accurate at the best of times.

    I apologise for my little calculation error – but it doesn’t invalidate my point, and I still don’t agree with your analysis of that study.

    Grace – from cultural experience I know that some people from some cultures have a culture of learning – and in some cultures the parents will beat the living daylights out of little Johnny if he doesn’t perform at his schoolwork. :)

    In spite of America’s label as a melting pot, I find that many Americans are poor at cross-cultural knowledge and understanding, hence the ease with which racial labelling occurs. I am not sure why this is.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    sg – You obviously ignored my commet @ 104. I patiently explained why IQ tests are unreliable in cross-cultural comparison, for instance. People with years of education, such as my dad (40 years, in Zambia and South Africa, teaching people from different African tribes, mostly, but in later years also, other races, including students from Europe and Russia) will attest to the role of culture in, well,epistemology. And as I dais, the cost of compiling a study to test the differences accurately is prohibitive. IE APPLES AND ORANGES!

    I am not sure of your education, but a good scientist must understand the presuppositions in any statistical study, and be able to attest to how reasonable they are. Just taking a bunch of numbers on face value is scientifically irresponsible. There is tons of junk science around, like that article you linked. A study of studies is not very accurate at the best of times.

    I apologise for my little calculation error – but it doesn’t invalidate my point, and I still don’t agree with your analysis of that study.

    Grace – from cultural experience I know that some people from some cultures have a culture of learning – and in some cultures the parents will beat the living daylights out of little Johnny if he doesn’t perform at his schoolwork. :)

    In spite of America’s label as a melting pot, I find that many Americans are poor at cross-cultural knowledge and understanding, hence the ease with which racial labelling occurs. I am not sure why this is.

  • Grace

    Louis you write #111: “Grace – from cultural experience I know that some people from some cultures have a culture of learning – and in some cultures the parents will beat the living daylights out of little Johnny if he doesn’t perform at his schoolwork”

    In the past few days, I have come to humble, as in humbling my self as though as a child I know so little. We as Believers are blessed, we are blessed beyond anything we can understand. As I see Christ as my redeemer, I see how far I have fallen, how much my witness to His glorious love for us has been at odds with those I disagree with, you included. I am sorry. I remember many posts you have posted to me, and links to give me understanding of your childhood, ….. please accept my apology Louis. I may not agree, but I am sorry for not spending time to see your life as you expressed it.

    Louis you write: “In spite of America’s label as a melting pot, I find that many Americans are poor at cross-cultural knowledge and understanding, hence the ease with which racial labelling occurs. I am not sure why this is.”

    Louis: As a California native, living up and down this coast, it is difficult to define – - however, I have lived a much different life than you may realize. I don’t see it as ‘racial labeling’ – it is more experience month in, year in and out, over and over again. I have come to understand that people are different within ethnic groups. People don’t want to believe that ethnic groups have different gifts, but they do. They might not always include great ability in the arts, or science, etc., but they are gifts given to each group of people. I believe Louis this is what we as God’s creation have blindly misunderstood.

    Having said what I did above – wouldn’t it be a joy and blessing to see one another as gifted, different but fitting into the LORD’s plan, His plan for us as a body of Believers to give and receive, at His hand, loving one another without setting as our goal an IQ as a goal,….. of which each person should strive to reach his or her potential – but instead, see our brothers and sisters as His creation, ….. that we should give out the Gospel of Christ, praying that each one might hear our Father’s voice, and love – and receive Salvation through repentance for our sins.

    I apologize to you Louis, and to those on this blog for any pain you may have suffered at my hand. I have not changed by Biblical views, but I am sorry for whatever I have done to have turned anyone from our Father’s love and promise.

    May God bless and keep each one, as we strive to serve our risen Savior.

  • Grace

    Louis you write #111: “Grace – from cultural experience I know that some people from some cultures have a culture of learning – and in some cultures the parents will beat the living daylights out of little Johnny if he doesn’t perform at his schoolwork”

    In the past few days, I have come to humble, as in humbling my self as though as a child I know so little. We as Believers are blessed, we are blessed beyond anything we can understand. As I see Christ as my redeemer, I see how far I have fallen, how much my witness to His glorious love for us has been at odds with those I disagree with, you included. I am sorry. I remember many posts you have posted to me, and links to give me understanding of your childhood, ….. please accept my apology Louis. I may not agree, but I am sorry for not spending time to see your life as you expressed it.

    Louis you write: “In spite of America’s label as a melting pot, I find that many Americans are poor at cross-cultural knowledge and understanding, hence the ease with which racial labelling occurs. I am not sure why this is.”

    Louis: As a California native, living up and down this coast, it is difficult to define – - however, I have lived a much different life than you may realize. I don’t see it as ‘racial labeling’ – it is more experience month in, year in and out, over and over again. I have come to understand that people are different within ethnic groups. People don’t want to believe that ethnic groups have different gifts, but they do. They might not always include great ability in the arts, or science, etc., but they are gifts given to each group of people. I believe Louis this is what we as God’s creation have blindly misunderstood.

    Having said what I did above – wouldn’t it be a joy and blessing to see one another as gifted, different but fitting into the LORD’s plan, His plan for us as a body of Believers to give and receive, at His hand, loving one another without setting as our goal an IQ as a goal,….. of which each person should strive to reach his or her potential – but instead, see our brothers and sisters as His creation, ….. that we should give out the Gospel of Christ, praying that each one might hear our Father’s voice, and love – and receive Salvation through repentance for our sins.

    I apologize to you Louis, and to those on this blog for any pain you may have suffered at my hand. I have not changed by Biblical views, but I am sorry for whatever I have done to have turned anyone from our Father’s love and promise.

    May God bless and keep each one, as we strive to serve our risen Savior.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    Grace, I accept. Thank you. God Bless.

    Pax.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    Grace, I accept. Thank you. God Bless.

    Pax.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, stop and think for a second.

    Why would the study authors specifically chart white American performance against European performance if race were no issue?

    The fact that they eliminate race points out that they know it matters. They tried to isolate the variable, by eliminating other know factors that affect performance. So, they eliminated race, well mostly, except for Asians competing against white Americans. Why exactly white Americans were compared to Chinese, I am not sure. The whole point of calling someone’s work junk without addressing the issue that IQ tests probably are not so culturally dependent as to make them wholly invalid. If you don’t think that Asians matter, go look up the NAEP data for any state in the union and compare the percentage of Asian students scoring proficient to the percentage of Asians that took the test. If the researchers had included Asian Americans and white Americans and none of the other races, the US would have beat all but a few countries. So I am being responsible and not just looking at numbers but also considering the methods. Are you?

    Still, two questions remain.

    Did you read the report?

    Why do Asians outperform whites on tests made by whites?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Louis, stop and think for a second.

    Why would the study authors specifically chart white American performance against European performance if race were no issue?

    The fact that they eliminate race points out that they know it matters. They tried to isolate the variable, by eliminating other know factors that affect performance. So, they eliminated race, well mostly, except for Asians competing against white Americans. Why exactly white Americans were compared to Chinese, I am not sure. The whole point of calling someone’s work junk without addressing the issue that IQ tests probably are not so culturally dependent as to make them wholly invalid. If you don’t think that Asians matter, go look up the NAEP data for any state in the union and compare the percentage of Asian students scoring proficient to the percentage of Asians that took the test. If the researchers had included Asian Americans and white Americans and none of the other races, the US would have beat all but a few countries. So I am being responsible and not just looking at numbers but also considering the methods. Are you?

    Still, two questions remain.

    Did you read the report?

    Why do Asians outperform whites on tests made by whites?

  • collie

    Grace @112, “O Happy Day” !
    (From the movie “Secretariat”). The Edwin Hawkins song has been bouncing around in my head for a couple of days, since we saw the movie. Just needed a good excuse to express it. :) I added it to my YouTube favs. Seriously, though – there is abundant wisdom, thoughtfulness, scriptural knowledge and humor contributed by the commenters to the Cranach bl0g.

    The Edwin Hawkins Singers – O Happy Day:

  • collie

    Grace @112, “O Happy Day” !
    (From the movie “Secretariat”). The Edwin Hawkins song has been bouncing around in my head for a couple of days, since we saw the movie. Just needed a good excuse to express it. :) I added it to my YouTube favs. Seriously, though – there is abundant wisdom, thoughtfulness, scriptural knowledge and humor contributed by the commenters to the Cranach bl0g.

    The Edwin Hawkins Singers – O Happy Day:

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 112

    Dear sister Grace. What a lovely post. You are now becoming a encouragement and example for me to become more humble, repentant and loving.

    Thank you for that.

    Most sincerely,

    Frank

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 112

    Dear sister Grace. What a lovely post. You are now becoming a encouragement and example for me to become more humble, repentant and loving.

    Thank you for that.

    Most sincerely,

    Frank

  • kerner

    sg:

    I don’t know if it makes any difference in your statistical analysis, but “Asian” does not mean the same thing in the USA as it means in Canada.

    Here “Asian” refers largely to East and Southeast Asians. In Canada, the “Asians” are largely Indian, Pakistani and Arab.

    At least that’s what I heard. Am I right, Louis?

  • kerner

    sg:

    I don’t know if it makes any difference in your statistical analysis, but “Asian” does not mean the same thing in the USA as it means in Canada.

    Here “Asian” refers largely to East and Southeast Asians. In Canada, the “Asians” are largely Indian, Pakistani and Arab.

    At least that’s what I heard. Am I right, Louis?

  • kerner

    sg:

    I refer you to another stistical analysis on the Milwaukee Public Schools that does not include Asians (alas), but we’ll just have to do without that.

    http://www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume%2020/Vol20No6p1.html

    I’m sure you will note the disparities between Blacks, Hispanics and Whites. Your unspoken conclusion about the statistics you have raised is that different groups have different achievement rates because there are more academicly gifted individuals in some groups, while other groups have more …well, let’s just call them “ungifted”.

    I suspect you don’t want to say this directly, because you expect to be called a racist if you do. But most of your writing points to this conclusion. And this is the foundation of your position the “low acheivers” should not be allowed into the United States in Large numbers.

    What I ask you to consider is the disparity in acheivement between boys and girls. In every catagory of this statistical analysis, girls perform significanly better than boys. Do you conclude from this that girls are inherantly smarter than boys?

  • kerner

    sg:

    I refer you to another stistical analysis on the Milwaukee Public Schools that does not include Asians (alas), but we’ll just have to do without that.

    http://www.wpri.org/Reports/Volume%2020/Vol20No6p1.html

    I’m sure you will note the disparities between Blacks, Hispanics and Whites. Your unspoken conclusion about the statistics you have raised is that different groups have different achievement rates because there are more academicly gifted individuals in some groups, while other groups have more …well, let’s just call them “ungifted”.

    I suspect you don’t want to say this directly, because you expect to be called a racist if you do. But most of your writing points to this conclusion. And this is the foundation of your position the “low acheivers” should not be allowed into the United States in Large numbers.

    What I ask you to consider is the disparity in acheivement between boys and girls. In every catagory of this statistical analysis, girls perform significanly better than boys. Do you conclude from this that girls are inherantly smarter than boys?

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    kerner – it depends. But it is somewhat true, although since 1990 there has been a new wave of Chinese immigration. But the majority of them go to BC. Here in SK, it is mostly Pakistani.

  • http://theobservationtree.blogspot.com Louis

    kerner – it depends. But it is somewhat true, although since 1990 there has been a new wave of Chinese immigration. But the majority of them go to BC. Here in SK, it is mostly Pakistani.

  • kerner

    I don’t know why that link doesn’t work. I’m sure I copied it correctly. But try http://www.wpri.org and click on the “reports” box, then click on the Vol. 20 2007 link, and then the report is No. 6

    If that doesn’t work, I’ll try again.

  • kerner

    I don’t know why that link doesn’t work. I’m sure I copied it correctly. But try http://www.wpri.org and click on the “reports” box, then click on the Vol. 20 2007 link, and then the report is No. 6

    If that doesn’t work, I’ll try again.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    NAEP Data for the whole US shows that 20% of Asians score advanced but only 11% of whites do. In Texas 31% of Asians, 16% white score advanced, in Massachusetts 35% of Asians, 20% white score advanced. The higher the threshold, the more Asians dominate.

    http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2009/gr8_state.asp

    From the report referenced by the article Louis cited:

    “Their study indicates that NCLB had positive impacts on the math performance of high-achieving students, even though larger impacts were observed for those at the bottom of the distribution.
    In short, the incapacity of American schools to bring students up to the highest level of accomplishment in mathematics is much more deep-seated than anything induced by recent federal legislation.” p.22

    Yes, indeed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    NAEP Data for the whole US shows that 20% of Asians score advanced but only 11% of whites do. In Texas 31% of Asians, 16% white score advanced, in Massachusetts 35% of Asians, 20% white score advanced. The higher the threshold, the more Asians dominate.

    http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2009/gr8_state.asp

    From the report referenced by the article Louis cited:

    “Their study indicates that NCLB had positive impacts on the math performance of high-achieving students, even though larger impacts were observed for those at the bottom of the distribution.
    In short, the incapacity of American schools to bring students up to the highest level of accomplishment in mathematics is much more deep-seated than anything induced by recent federal legislation.” p.22

    Yes, indeed.

  • kerner

    Finally, sp, what about this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jaime_Escalante

    Does this not indicate that the acheivement scores among hispanics may have at least something to do with the politics of education in the United States? That it’s not ALL about their inferior ability to acheive?

  • kerner

    Finally, sp, what about this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jaime_Escalante

    Does this not indicate that the acheivement scores among hispanics may have at least something to do with the politics of education in the United States? That it’s not ALL about their inferior ability to acheive?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What I ask you to consider is the disparity in acheivement between boys and girls. In every catagory of this statistical analysis, girls perform significanly better than boys. Do you conclude from this that girls are inherantly smarter than boys?”

    This is an artifact of the data. When the threshold is basically below the mean, girls outperform boys due to the shape of the distribution. For example, girls have a higher graduation rate. Well, the requirements are below the average. There are more males at the two tails of the bell curve. There are a higher percentage of very low performing males than there are very low performing females. The requirements for graduation from HS are so low that all of the high, medium and low performing students can meet them. That just leaves the very low performing students, of which there are more males than females. So if 15% of males are very low performing but only 10% of women are, then women look great overall because women cluster more tightly in the middle. Larry Summers got slammed for telling this simple truth.

    So, to answer the question, on average women and men are so close it is more accurate to say they are different rather than one or the other is smarter. However, this whole discussion was really about math not general indicators. On math, SAT scores quickly reveal that there are far more very high performers. The SAT actually has a ceiling such that many more men score an 800 than 750. We would assume they could be differentiated further if the test were harder, but that is beyond the scope of the intent of the test. At that level men outnumber women 2:1. Generally, the higher the level the fewer the women, the lower the level the fewer the women.

    So, there is no reason to disparage men or women for their differences, neither is it helpful to pretend they don’t exist. Same for race. The equality thing is not real. It is a nice liberal ideal that we wish were true, but hey, it’s a fallen world. The equality we all share is our fallen condition.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What I ask you to consider is the disparity in acheivement between boys and girls. In every catagory of this statistical analysis, girls perform significanly better than boys. Do you conclude from this that girls are inherantly smarter than boys?”

    This is an artifact of the data. When the threshold is basically below the mean, girls outperform boys due to the shape of the distribution. For example, girls have a higher graduation rate. Well, the requirements are below the average. There are more males at the two tails of the bell curve. There are a higher percentage of very low performing males than there are very low performing females. The requirements for graduation from HS are so low that all of the high, medium and low performing students can meet them. That just leaves the very low performing students, of which there are more males than females. So if 15% of males are very low performing but only 10% of women are, then women look great overall because women cluster more tightly in the middle. Larry Summers got slammed for telling this simple truth.

    So, to answer the question, on average women and men are so close it is more accurate to say they are different rather than one or the other is smarter. However, this whole discussion was really about math not general indicators. On math, SAT scores quickly reveal that there are far more very high performers. The SAT actually has a ceiling such that many more men score an 800 than 750. We would assume they could be differentiated further if the test were harder, but that is beyond the scope of the intent of the test. At that level men outnumber women 2:1. Generally, the higher the level the fewer the women, the lower the level the fewer the women.

    So, there is no reason to disparage men or women for their differences, neither is it helpful to pretend they don’t exist. Same for race. The equality thing is not real. It is a nice liberal ideal that we wish were true, but hey, it’s a fallen world. The equality we all share is our fallen condition.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    On math, SAT scores quickly reveal that there are far more very high performers.

    Oops, should be,

    On math, SAT scores quickly reveal that there are far more very high performing men than women.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    On math, SAT scores quickly reveal that there are far more very high performers.

    Oops, should be,

    On math, SAT scores quickly reveal that there are far more very high performing men than women.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I suspect you don’t want to say this directly, because you expect to be called a racist if you do. But most of your writing points to this conclusion.”

    Actually it doesn’t. However, I am unwilling to concede the point to someone just because they call me names. I jump in these discussions to correct errors of fact. Then the hue and cry ensues. Still, I believe that using false premises for policy decisions is unwise to the point of dangerous in some cases. I will not concede to the person who is wrong just because he is abusive.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I suspect you don’t want to say this directly, because you expect to be called a racist if you do. But most of your writing points to this conclusion.”

    Actually it doesn’t. However, I am unwilling to concede the point to someone just because they call me names. I jump in these discussions to correct errors of fact. Then the hue and cry ensues. Still, I believe that using false premises for policy decisions is unwise to the point of dangerous in some cases. I will not concede to the person who is wrong just because he is abusive.

  • kerner

    sg @123:

    I accept your data without the necessity of a supporting link, but what of the statistic that women outnember men in colleges today?
    It’s only annecdotal, but I think that this is true of law schools as well. Even if your data is correct, the practical results of education in the United States seems to be that women are achieving more academically than men do. Again, how is this “achievement gap” in real achievement, not just test scores, explained?

  • kerner

    sg @123:

    I accept your data without the necessity of a supporting link, but what of the statistic that women outnember men in colleges today?
    It’s only annecdotal, but I think that this is true of law schools as well. Even if your data is correct, the practical results of education in the United States seems to be that women are achieving more academically than men do. Again, how is this “achievement gap” in real achievement, not just test scores, explained?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Does this not indicate that the acheivement scores among hispanics may have at least something to do with the politics of education in the United States? That it’s not ALL about their inferior ability to acheive?”

    Escalante was a great guy. If you look at the percentage of students from the school in which he taught that passed the AP calculus exam, it is commensurate with the percentage one would expect from hispanics who were given opportunity. The percentage in his school does not exceed the expected or observed performance for their group. All kids should have the opportunity to achieve. In other words, before he pushed the kids to do their best, they were underperforming. The school had not been trying to help them reach their potential. Basically it was not fulfilling its mandate to provide an appropriate education.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Does this not indicate that the acheivement scores among hispanics may have at least something to do with the politics of education in the United States? That it’s not ALL about their inferior ability to acheive?”

    Escalante was a great guy. If you look at the percentage of students from the school in which he taught that passed the AP calculus exam, it is commensurate with the percentage one would expect from hispanics who were given opportunity. The percentage in his school does not exceed the expected or observed performance for their group. All kids should have the opportunity to achieve. In other words, before he pushed the kids to do their best, they were underperforming. The school had not been trying to help them reach their potential. Basically it was not fulfilling its mandate to provide an appropriate education.

  • Louis

    sg: “Why would the study authors specifically chart white American performance against European performance if race were no issue?”

    The study, p11:

    Largely as a way of explaining away the disappointing relative performance of U.S. students, it is frequently noted that the U.S. has a
    very heterogeneous population with large numbers of immigrants. Such a diverse population, with students coming to school with varying preparation, may handicap U.S. performance relative to other, more homogeneous countries. For this reason, we provide two additional analyses. We examine two U.S. subgroups conventionally thought to have better preparation for school—white students and students from families where at least one parent is reported to have received a college degree—and compare the percentages of high-achieving students among them to the (total) populations abroad.”

    QED.

  • Louis

    sg: “Why would the study authors specifically chart white American performance against European performance if race were no issue?”

    The study, p11:

    Largely as a way of explaining away the disappointing relative performance of U.S. students, it is frequently noted that the U.S. has a
    very heterogeneous population with large numbers of immigrants. Such a diverse population, with students coming to school with varying preparation, may handicap U.S. performance relative to other, more homogeneous countries. For this reason, we provide two additional analyses. We examine two U.S. subgroups conventionally thought to have better preparation for school—white students and students from families where at least one parent is reported to have received a college degree—and compare the percentages of high-achieving students among them to the (total) populations abroad.”

    QED.

  • kerner

    sg @125:

    I understand your desire to make decisions based on fact, and I hope we know each other well enough for you to believe me what I say that I am not approaching this area of discussion as a way to blind side and abuse you.

    But I do question some of what I perceive as your conclusions based on the data. You tend to take statistical data and conclude that those conditions which exist now are hard wired and will exist forever.

    I also believe that generalizations about entire large groups of people are suspect. Once there are enough people in a group, the variables multiply to the point where you really getting into the realm of chaos theory. There are just too many variables to track to solid, accurate, predictions of future behavior.

  • kerner

    sg @125:

    I understand your desire to make decisions based on fact, and I hope we know each other well enough for you to believe me what I say that I am not approaching this area of discussion as a way to blind side and abuse you.

    But I do question some of what I perceive as your conclusions based on the data. You tend to take statistical data and conclude that those conditions which exist now are hard wired and will exist forever.

    I also believe that generalizations about entire large groups of people are suspect. Once there are enough people in a group, the variables multiply to the point where you really getting into the realm of chaos theory. There are just too many variables to track to solid, accurate, predictions of future behavior.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I accept your data without the necessity of a supporting link, but what of the statistic that women outnember men in colleges today?”

    Great question. First, women are by their nature more compliant than men. So, if mom, dad, friends etc. push them to do it, they will. Sad really. Many women do not really have much interest as is evident by their choice of majors. They would likely be happier home with their children, not that anyone cares. Next, women do not outnumber men at selective colleges. In fact, men are the majority. Makes sense. There are more very high performing men than women in general and in specific majors in particular.

    “It’s only annecdotal, but I think that this is true of law schools as well. Even if your data is correct, the practical results of education in the United States seems to be that women are achieving more academically than men do. Again, how is this “achievement gap” in real achievement, not just test scores, explained?”

    Credentialism.

    Women are not achieving that much in truly competitive fields and they would get far fewer jobs if employers did not face legal punishment for not hiring them. All of the good paying hazardous jobs are done by men. Clean, safe, prestigious, high paying jobs are all that women will do. If the job is not fairly clean and safe, men will be doing it. Men die on the job at like a 13:1 rate.

    Also, how do you measure achievement? I mean with single motherhood and illegitimacy at sky high rates, women certainly aren’t achieving on behalf of their children. This is a far bigger failure because it destroys the lives of women and children. So what if the small fraction of the women at the top are achieving more. It’s not like the alternative would be destitution. Marriage rates at the top are very high. If they weren’t out working, men would have their good jobs and be supporting their own families. Did you look at the labor participation rates for men? Promoting higher education for all women is a lose lose lose situation. But who cares?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I accept your data without the necessity of a supporting link, but what of the statistic that women outnember men in colleges today?”

    Great question. First, women are by their nature more compliant than men. So, if mom, dad, friends etc. push them to do it, they will. Sad really. Many women do not really have much interest as is evident by their choice of majors. They would likely be happier home with their children, not that anyone cares. Next, women do not outnumber men at selective colleges. In fact, men are the majority. Makes sense. There are more very high performing men than women in general and in specific majors in particular.

    “It’s only annecdotal, but I think that this is true of law schools as well. Even if your data is correct, the practical results of education in the United States seems to be that women are achieving more academically than men do. Again, how is this “achievement gap” in real achievement, not just test scores, explained?”

    Credentialism.

    Women are not achieving that much in truly competitive fields and they would get far fewer jobs if employers did not face legal punishment for not hiring them. All of the good paying hazardous jobs are done by men. Clean, safe, prestigious, high paying jobs are all that women will do. If the job is not fairly clean and safe, men will be doing it. Men die on the job at like a 13:1 rate.

    Also, how do you measure achievement? I mean with single motherhood and illegitimacy at sky high rates, women certainly aren’t achieving on behalf of their children. This is a far bigger failure because it destroys the lives of women and children. So what if the small fraction of the women at the top are achieving more. It’s not like the alternative would be destitution. Marriage rates at the top are very high. If they weren’t out working, men would have their good jobs and be supporting their own families. Did you look at the labor participation rates for men? Promoting higher education for all women is a lose lose lose situation. But who cares?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I also believe that generalizations about entire large groups of people are suspect.”

    No, they aren’t. You just have to be a decent person and realize that the group average does not apply to the individuals that you meet.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I also believe that generalizations about entire large groups of people are suspect.”

    No, they aren’t. You just have to be a decent person and realize that the group average does not apply to the individuals that you meet.

  • kerner

    sg @127:

    I disagree. In 1987, the number of Garfield students who passed the AP calculus exam outpaced Beverly High. By out pacing the advantaged whit group, these hispanics far exceeded the more modest expectations for their own group.

    http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited (the reference is on page 2)

    You also ignore the statistic of the Garfield program having (at its peak) 400-530 students in the math enrichment program. By all accounts Garfield’s math enrichment program was the real deal, not a watered down program with a “math enrichment” label slapped on it to boost the participants’ self esteem. These numbers are comparable to the numbers you find in a white suburban high school today, and may exceed what you would expect to have seen in a white suburban school in 1991.

    The above reference also tracks the performance of second tier students at Garfield. Rather than attend top rated universities, these attended, and did well in the Cal State system.

    Finally, one of Escalante’s guiding principles was to ignore the student’s past as a requirement to enter the math enrichment program. Anyone who wanted to try to learn higher math was allowed to try. In other words, Escalante went against a guiding sg principle. He ignored “the data”. He didn’t care if a student had been “low achieving” up to that point, if the student wanted an opportunity to excel, he/she got one. This approach, combined with Escalane’s other teaching methods (including high expectations and requiring hard work) produced results far beyond the expectations supported by “the data”..

  • kerner

    sg @127:

    I disagree. In 1987, the number of Garfield students who passed the AP calculus exam outpaced Beverly High. By out pacing the advantaged whit group, these hispanics far exceeded the more modest expectations for their own group.

    http://reason.com/archives/2002/07/01/stand-and-deliver-revisited (the reference is on page 2)

    You also ignore the statistic of the Garfield program having (at its peak) 400-530 students in the math enrichment program. By all accounts Garfield’s math enrichment program was the real deal, not a watered down program with a “math enrichment” label slapped on it to boost the participants’ self esteem. These numbers are comparable to the numbers you find in a white suburban high school today, and may exceed what you would expect to have seen in a white suburban school in 1991.

    The above reference also tracks the performance of second tier students at Garfield. Rather than attend top rated universities, these attended, and did well in the Cal State system.

    Finally, one of Escalante’s guiding principles was to ignore the student’s past as a requirement to enter the math enrichment program. Anyone who wanted to try to learn higher math was allowed to try. In other words, Escalante went against a guiding sg principle. He ignored “the data”. He didn’t care if a student had been “low achieving” up to that point, if the student wanted an opportunity to excel, he/she got one. This approach, combined with Escalane’s other teaching methods (including high expectations and requiring hard work) produced results far beyond the expectations supported by “the data”..

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, Louis, he actually makes the point that he claims he is refuting, namely that a homogenous population does better than an integrated one. More likely is that high achievers can move and do to places with good jobs like Texas.

    Anyway. If you look at the US states as compared to the white countries, they are interspersed in the distribution. And yes, the far northern Euro and Asian countries do best, like always.

    My main point is that blaming schools and teaching is silly. It is the students. All kids should be have the opportunity to reach their potential. We shouldn’t blame educators for the students who don’t do as well. To be fair, the authors of the study aren’t as bad as some on these points, but the constant blaming of schools is tiring. Are we so eat up with jealousy over the Finns, or Iceland or Taiwan beating us that we are going to keep up the insane school funding levels? Can you say diminishing returns? Massachusetts spends twice as much per student as Texas, and only gets a very small fraction more in performance from the kids at the top and does significantly worse among hispanics and blacks. If the education is so great in Massachusetts why does it help whites and Asians but not blacks and hispanics? Why do Texas blacks and hispanics beat those in Massachusetts?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, Louis, he actually makes the point that he claims he is refuting, namely that a homogenous population does better than an integrated one. More likely is that high achievers can move and do to places with good jobs like Texas.

    Anyway. If you look at the US states as compared to the white countries, they are interspersed in the distribution. And yes, the far northern Euro and Asian countries do best, like always.

    My main point is that blaming schools and teaching is silly. It is the students. All kids should be have the opportunity to reach their potential. We shouldn’t blame educators for the students who don’t do as well. To be fair, the authors of the study aren’t as bad as some on these points, but the constant blaming of schools is tiring. Are we so eat up with jealousy over the Finns, or Iceland or Taiwan beating us that we are going to keep up the insane school funding levels? Can you say diminishing returns? Massachusetts spends twice as much per student as Texas, and only gets a very small fraction more in performance from the kids at the top and does significantly worse among hispanics and blacks. If the education is so great in Massachusetts why does it help whites and Asians but not blacks and hispanics? Why do Texas blacks and hispanics beat those in Massachusetts?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I agree with you on Esalante at Garfield. I disagree that say, Beverly was doing all it could to provide its students with the instruction they need as well. To be fair, we can’t know what Escalante would have done if he had been at Beverly instead. There were probably underserved kids there, too. I haven’t looked closely at the Garfield data in a long time, but I am pretty sure of the assessment. Regardless, Escalante is a great model of challenging kids to really work hard and reach their potential.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I agree with you on Esalante at Garfield. I disagree that say, Beverly was doing all it could to provide its students with the instruction they need as well. To be fair, we can’t know what Escalante would have done if he had been at Beverly instead. There were probably underserved kids there, too. I haven’t looked closely at the Garfield data in a long time, but I am pretty sure of the assessment. Regardless, Escalante is a great model of challenging kids to really work hard and reach their potential.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,
    I posted the link to the AP exam data for 2008. I am pretty sure if you compare the number of seniors at Garfield to the number that passed the AP Calculus test, it is about the same as the ratio of the nation’s hispanic seniors to those passing AP Calculus now. If so, it means that hispanics are being served, which of course is what we all want to see.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner,
    I posted the link to the AP exam data for 2008. I am pretty sure if you compare the number of seniors at Garfield to the number that passed the AP Calculus test, it is about the same as the ratio of the nation’s hispanic seniors to those passing AP Calculus now. If so, it means that hispanics are being served, which of course is what we all want to see.

  • Louis

    sg – the race issue aside, the point being made is that what is not needed is more money (that was an important point in the article in The Atlantic), but high expectations from teachers AND students (again, very clearly stated in the article from The Atlantic).

    But there are also other factors at play – I have a feeling (just a feeling, no proof) that there is a growing anti-intelectualism. Maybe its just me growing more cynical and curmudgeonly with age, I don’t know. But the drop in standards that have been reported on countless times, corresponds with a lot of other seemingly insiginificant happenings: For instance, dress sizes – an 8 a couple of decades ago is a much smaller number now. so what? Well, it couples in with an societal ethos that places feelings over substance. Rights over responsibilities. Desire over Duty. Etc. Etc. Short-term profit over sustainable income. Oppulent isplays of wealth over modest but concrete wealth.

    And it is a societal/cultural issue, not a conservative/liberal one.

  • Louis

    sg – the race issue aside, the point being made is that what is not needed is more money (that was an important point in the article in The Atlantic), but high expectations from teachers AND students (again, very clearly stated in the article from The Atlantic).

    But there are also other factors at play – I have a feeling (just a feeling, no proof) that there is a growing anti-intelectualism. Maybe its just me growing more cynical and curmudgeonly with age, I don’t know. But the drop in standards that have been reported on countless times, corresponds with a lot of other seemingly insiginificant happenings: For instance, dress sizes – an 8 a couple of decades ago is a much smaller number now. so what? Well, it couples in with an societal ethos that places feelings over substance. Rights over responsibilities. Desire over Duty. Etc. Etc. Short-term profit over sustainable income. Oppulent isplays of wealth over modest but concrete wealth.

    And it is a societal/cultural issue, not a conservative/liberal one.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 136

    I think you are on to something, but I am not sure it is anti-intellectualism that is it. I think that quite possibly we do live in a post-literate society. I am not sure that post-literate=post intellectual.

    I too am trying to put my finger on it, and I am not succeeding, and I hope sister sg will agree that statistics just won´t capture cause but only effect and we can only trace backwards from effect on a rather limited basis to try to ascertain causes.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 136

    I think you are on to something, but I am not sure it is anti-intellectualism that is it. I think that quite possibly we do live in a post-literate society. I am not sure that post-literate=post intellectual.

    I too am trying to put my finger on it, and I am not succeeding, and I hope sister sg will agree that statistics just won´t capture cause but only effect and we can only trace backwards from effect on a rather limited basis to try to ascertain causes.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 136

    “rights over responsibilities”

    I would suggest to you dear brother that this “libertine vs lawful” that you suggest in the form of right-vs-responsibity is merely just another form of antinomianism. We can erase the letters L.A.W. but the Law will still always accuse by whatever we call it. We can call “sin” outmoded and outdated, but … the Law always accuses. The Law always accuses. The Law…..

    The Law does us. We only think we can do it as legalists bent on finding our life in our responsibilities. This is the reality Louis that we confess in our confessions.

    God will work is goodness of providing daily bread from the wicked (ie your and my old adam) for the wicked (ie your and my old adam) indeed without our prayer (ie without faith or godliness). He will do this by whatever means necessary (Luke 18).

    So I don´t think we are really changing anything at all in that equation Louis from previous times. Maybe what is happening is just that the cycles of change are increasingly faster. In the past, old adam´s had time to wrap social customs and conventions around selfishness. Now even I talk, rudely, on my cell phone, while a waitress or bank teller is trying to attend to my needs. And I can talk in rude and aggressive ways here to others that I would NEVER think to do looking someone in the eye.

    So maybe the fast change just exposes us, as never before, for who we really are as Old Adams. As the Confessions say: “The Law always accuses.”

    There is perhaps an Evangelical opportunity in the midst of all that.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 136

    “rights over responsibilities”

    I would suggest to you dear brother that this “libertine vs lawful” that you suggest in the form of right-vs-responsibity is merely just another form of antinomianism. We can erase the letters L.A.W. but the Law will still always accuse by whatever we call it. We can call “sin” outmoded and outdated, but … the Law always accuses. The Law always accuses. The Law…..

    The Law does us. We only think we can do it as legalists bent on finding our life in our responsibilities. This is the reality Louis that we confess in our confessions.

    God will work is goodness of providing daily bread from the wicked (ie your and my old adam) for the wicked (ie your and my old adam) indeed without our prayer (ie without faith or godliness). He will do this by whatever means necessary (Luke 18).

    So I don´t think we are really changing anything at all in that equation Louis from previous times. Maybe what is happening is just that the cycles of change are increasingly faster. In the past, old adam´s had time to wrap social customs and conventions around selfishness. Now even I talk, rudely, on my cell phone, while a waitress or bank teller is trying to attend to my needs. And I can talk in rude and aggressive ways here to others that I would NEVER think to do looking someone in the eye.

    So maybe the fast change just exposes us, as never before, for who we really are as Old Adams. As the Confessions say: “The Law always accuses.”

    There is perhaps an Evangelical opportunity in the midst of all that.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, Louis, I agree. Also, I think there is a growing anti phony intellectualism. When we trust the intellectuals and they are wrong more than right, then their intellect sure didn’t grant them understanding and didn’t warrant our confidence.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, Louis, I agree. Also, I think there is a growing anti phony intellectualism. When we trust the intellectuals and they are wrong more than right, then their intellect sure didn’t grant them understanding and didn’t warrant our confidence.

  • Louis

    fws – yes. The culture (and to a LESSER extent, the technology), has enabled/encouraged a disregard for the Second use of the Law. And here I’m primarily referring not to the legal code, but to tradition, manners etc. The legal code went haywire long ago.

    Also, when I’m using the term responibilities, there is a feudal infleunce present. Fealty vs rights might have been a better way of putting it.

  • Louis

    fws – yes. The culture (and to a LESSER extent, the technology), has enabled/encouraged a disregard for the Second use of the Law. And here I’m primarily referring not to the legal code, but to tradition, manners etc. The legal code went haywire long ago.

    Also, when I’m using the term responibilities, there is a feudal infleunce present. Fealty vs rights might have been a better way of putting it.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 140

    I look at feudalism as just a form of the extended family , which is really just a form of tribalism. so the evolution was family-tribe-feudal-principality-citystate-kingdom… to the modern, and rather artificial construct of nation-state.

    So I sorta see what you are driving at as the result of the breakdown of the extended nuclear family or tribal system that had existed from the dawn of time till most recently.

    I see socialism as a valid and extremely flawed attempt at nation states to rightly try to attend to the needs of people that still exist and that tribes are no longer available to address and provide for.

    When I was growing up in small town south dakota, the community would have be scandalized at warehousing grandma into a nursing home for instance. It would have been considered extremely immoral. In fact to do this is neither moral nor immoral (as you imply) but this goes beyond any second use of the law.

    We Lutherans have bought into the reformed frame of the law by the way with the 3 uses. the Lutheran way is more to say mortification (2nd use) + love = earthly righteousness. This is the structure of our catechism. as a result we have drifed back to the scholastic view and the neo scholastic view of the reformed and say that 2nd use mortification = righteousness of itself even if it does not bear the evidence of love. Love is what tribalism and socialism are attempting to provide. often mortification is missing from the argument. so love is not really then love. conservatives then land in the opposite error asserting that mortification of itself 2nd use, is the sole purpose of any government…..

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Louis @ 140

    I look at feudalism as just a form of the extended family , which is really just a form of tribalism. so the evolution was family-tribe-feudal-principality-citystate-kingdom… to the modern, and rather artificial construct of nation-state.

    So I sorta see what you are driving at as the result of the breakdown of the extended nuclear family or tribal system that had existed from the dawn of time till most recently.

    I see socialism as a valid and extremely flawed attempt at nation states to rightly try to attend to the needs of people that still exist and that tribes are no longer available to address and provide for.

    When I was growing up in small town south dakota, the community would have be scandalized at warehousing grandma into a nursing home for instance. It would have been considered extremely immoral. In fact to do this is neither moral nor immoral (as you imply) but this goes beyond any second use of the law.

    We Lutherans have bought into the reformed frame of the law by the way with the 3 uses. the Lutheran way is more to say mortification (2nd use) + love = earthly righteousness. This is the structure of our catechism. as a result we have drifed back to the scholastic view and the neo scholastic view of the reformed and say that 2nd use mortification = righteousness of itself even if it does not bear the evidence of love. Love is what tribalism and socialism are attempting to provide. often mortification is missing from the argument. so love is not really then love. conservatives then land in the opposite error asserting that mortification of itself 2nd use, is the sole purpose of any government…..

  • kerner

    Hold it sg.

    @133 you say that blaming teachers and schools for poor student performance is silly.

    But @134, when confronted with the fact that in 1987 a bunch of poor hispanics out-performed a group of priviledged white kids, your reaction is to blame the white kids’ teachers and school?

    You can’t have it both ways, you know.

    I suggest to you that the explanation for differing levels of performance is more complex than you make it out to be.

  • kerner

    Hold it sg.

    @133 you say that blaming teachers and schools for poor student performance is silly.

    But @134, when confronted with the fact that in 1987 a bunch of poor hispanics out-performed a group of priviledged white kids, your reaction is to blame the white kids’ teachers and school?

    You can’t have it both ways, you know.

    I suggest to you that the explanation for differing levels of performance is more complex than you make it out to be.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Where did you post the link to the 2008 AP results? I can’t find it.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Where did you post the link to the 2008 AP results? I can’t find it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But @134, when confronted with the fact that in 1987 a bunch of poor hispanics out-performed a group of priviledged white kids, your reaction is to blame the white kids’ teachers and school?”

    Doggone it, I noticed that, too, and hoped you wouldn’t! :-)

    Like I said, I haven’t looked at that data in a long time. I don’t remember all the details.

    Okay, I posted AP link at comment 105. Here it is again:

    http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/ap-report-to-the-nation-2008.pdf

    I am not arguing against good teaching, but really I think we have that. I noted that with info from MA and TX. Notice that Grace commented that the mean SAT scores for whites and Asians are rising. That indicates that their educational needs are being met. Much of that growth is in high school, so it is not reflected in the PISA which measured 14 year olds. The data presented in the report referenced by the Atlantic article did not show that US was way behind. It just showed that we aren’t at the very top. US whites performed similarly to whites around the world. A few tiny white countries did significantly better. And Asians did better. I do think it would be interesting to compare our minorities to their home countries. I am guessing they would outperform their co ethnics living in their ancestral homelands. Not that anyone would give us any credit for that. Whenever others do well it is to their credit. When they don’t, it is our fault. Yeah, the liberal ideology is wearing rather thin.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But @134, when confronted with the fact that in 1987 a bunch of poor hispanics out-performed a group of priviledged white kids, your reaction is to blame the white kids’ teachers and school?”

    Doggone it, I noticed that, too, and hoped you wouldn’t! :-)

    Like I said, I haven’t looked at that data in a long time. I don’t remember all the details.

    Okay, I posted AP link at comment 105. Here it is again:

    http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/ap-report-to-the-nation-2008.pdf

    I am not arguing against good teaching, but really I think we have that. I noted that with info from MA and TX. Notice that Grace commented that the mean SAT scores for whites and Asians are rising. That indicates that their educational needs are being met. Much of that growth is in high school, so it is not reflected in the PISA which measured 14 year olds. The data presented in the report referenced by the Atlantic article did not show that US was way behind. It just showed that we aren’t at the very top. US whites performed similarly to whites around the world. A few tiny white countries did significantly better. And Asians did better. I do think it would be interesting to compare our minorities to their home countries. I am guessing they would outperform their co ethnics living in their ancestral homelands. Not that anyone would give us any credit for that. Whenever others do well it is to their credit. When they don’t, it is our fault. Yeah, the liberal ideology is wearing rather thin.

  • DonS

    The left loves these studies which examine the performance of large groups based on race or gender, and then make conclusions based on the data that females or certain races perform at lower levels than males or other races. Why do they love them, and why do they keep doing them? Because they support a predetermined conclusion that further affirmative action and special programs are necessary, in perpetuity, to “erase these discrepancies”, which they conclude, without complementary supportive data, are due to inherent discrimination which, they assert, must still be rampant in our society.

    Please, why are we on the right, who believe in individual rights and responsibilities, and focus on opportunity rather than outcome, continuing to give these kinds of studies credibility? They don’t deserve our attention, and certainly not our funding. There is nothing they can meaningfully contribute to policy or attitudes, because we should and must treat people as individuals and not as groups. Stereotyping is a game of the left. We should not play.

  • DonS

    The left loves these studies which examine the performance of large groups based on race or gender, and then make conclusions based on the data that females or certain races perform at lower levels than males or other races. Why do they love them, and why do they keep doing them? Because they support a predetermined conclusion that further affirmative action and special programs are necessary, in perpetuity, to “erase these discrepancies”, which they conclude, without complementary supportive data, are due to inherent discrimination which, they assert, must still be rampant in our society.

    Please, why are we on the right, who believe in individual rights and responsibilities, and focus on opportunity rather than outcome, continuing to give these kinds of studies credibility? They don’t deserve our attention, and certainly not our funding. There is nothing they can meaningfully contribute to policy or attitudes, because we should and must treat people as individuals and not as groups. Stereotyping is a game of the left. We should not play.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS, Far from giving them credibility, we should attack them at the source, the data. Part of that is holding folks accountable for social spending that doesn’t deliver results.

    Kerner, what I do remember about the data from Garfield HS is that the school is very large and so is its freshman class, much larger than it is on graduation day. If you compare the number that entered as freshmen and then went on to pass the AP Calculus class, the percentage is in line with hispanic performance. You mentioned Beverly. I have no idea how many entering freshmen there were at the time but if very few dropped out, then the ratio of entering freshman to those who went on to pass the AP Calc test as seniors might be similar to other mostly white schools. It is probably possible to find that data. I am not tracking it down.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS, Far from giving them credibility, we should attack them at the source, the data. Part of that is holding folks accountable for social spending that doesn’t deliver results.

    Kerner, what I do remember about the data from Garfield HS is that the school is very large and so is its freshman class, much larger than it is on graduation day. If you compare the number that entered as freshmen and then went on to pass the AP Calculus class, the percentage is in line with hispanic performance. You mentioned Beverly. I have no idea how many entering freshmen there were at the time but if very few dropped out, then the ratio of entering freshman to those who went on to pass the AP Calc test as seniors might be similar to other mostly white schools. It is probably possible to find that data. I am not tracking it down.

  • Grace

    I agree with DonS, 145 for the most part – “…….we should and must treat people as individuals and not as groups. Stereotyping is a game of the left. We should not play.”

    This issue will continue to haunt not only education, but job performance, and opportunities in the work place, after education has been completed. The whole idea of identifying ethnic groups, as not being able to compete for the best positions, will accomplish nothing but anger from those who fall into the lower category, repeatedly.

    There is another concern – Affirmative Action – this system allows minorities a different opportunity than other more capable potential students, OR employees. Is this what the United States wants, or can consider when striving to achieve the best choices? Our country needs to use the God given talent of our most gifted citizens, to accomplish those goals that will benefit both science, medicine, and many other areas. We cannot as a nation equalize/soci@lize education, careers, or any and all employment. We must consider talent and ability as a bench mark, when thinking about the future of America.

    As I stated in post 112 “People don’t want to believe that ethnic groups have different gifts, but they do. They might not always include great ability in the arts, or science, etc., but they are gifts given to each group of people. I believe Louis this is what we as God’s creation have blindly misunderstood.”

    We as a people living together, albeit not very well at the moment, need to find ways in which to embrace those who don’t excel academically – but instead look closely at their talents which will give them the needed income, to live a life that holds both promise, financial stability and RESPECT from our communities. Many of the positions these people have are NOT RESPECTED – that adds to the anger, resentment and envy as a result. We must in Christian love, show respect for each individual, no matter what position or ‘vocation’ they are placed – in fact, we should be extra careful to EVEN out the care and thankfulness for each person.

    Another point I want to make is this; it would be wise IF higher education were not put on a pedestal, so as to make those who cannot succeed in that direction, believe they are unworthy or disrespected.

  • Grace

    I agree with DonS, 145 for the most part – “…….we should and must treat people as individuals and not as groups. Stereotyping is a game of the left. We should not play.”

    This issue will continue to haunt not only education, but job performance, and opportunities in the work place, after education has been completed. The whole idea of identifying ethnic groups, as not being able to compete for the best positions, will accomplish nothing but anger from those who fall into the lower category, repeatedly.

    There is another concern – Affirmative Action – this system allows minorities a different opportunity than other more capable potential students, OR employees. Is this what the United States wants, or can consider when striving to achieve the best choices? Our country needs to use the God given talent of our most gifted citizens, to accomplish those goals that will benefit both science, medicine, and many other areas. We cannot as a nation equalize/soci@lize education, careers, or any and all employment. We must consider talent and ability as a bench mark, when thinking about the future of America.

    As I stated in post 112 “People don’t want to believe that ethnic groups have different gifts, but they do. They might not always include great ability in the arts, or science, etc., but they are gifts given to each group of people. I believe Louis this is what we as God’s creation have blindly misunderstood.”

    We as a people living together, albeit not very well at the moment, need to find ways in which to embrace those who don’t excel academically – but instead look closely at their talents which will give them the needed income, to live a life that holds both promise, financial stability and RESPECT from our communities. Many of the positions these people have are NOT RESPECTED – that adds to the anger, resentment and envy as a result. We must in Christian love, show respect for each individual, no matter what position or ‘vocation’ they are placed – in fact, we should be extra careful to EVEN out the care and thankfulness for each person.

    Another point I want to make is this; it would be wise IF higher education were not put on a pedestal, so as to make those who cannot succeed in that direction, believe they are unworthy or disrespected.

  • DonS

    sg @ 146: Sure, it is reasonable to attack these studies based on the data. For example, it is almost impossible to design a study based on race which zeroes out all of the other factors, such as economic status, home life, neighborhood influences, etc., which may also impact academic performance. It is similarly impossible to study gender differences in various academic disciplines, such as science or math, while completely accounting for other factors such as gender programming (females are predisposed to focus on different things than males — to have different values) or environment. So the resultant data, which might have indicated that females perform as well as males in math, or that males don’t perform as well as females in writing, doesn’t say anything about the potential performance of an individual or even group of individuals. What I’m trying to say is that statistical norming is an art, not a science, and involves significant assumption.

    But you don’t seem to be attacking the data or the design of the studies as being invalid. You seem to be lending credibility to the data and using it to argue that social spending and affirmative action programs don’t work. It’s a losing battle. For you will always face the counter-argument that the problem is not enough spending, because, obviously, the societal prejudice is even worse than we previously thought. So these groups need even more help than we could have imagined. And, because the problem is so severe, we’re going to have to keep these affirmative action programs in place, um, well, forever.

    The bottom line is these studies are pointless and worthless and, I think, statistically invalid. They engender bad public policy as well, whether that policy be mis-directed social spending, discriminatory laws, or immigration quotas based on nationality, all of which are horrible ideas. They also provide ammunition for people who do have a predisposition to racism. We are a nation which values the individual, and has a mission of ensuring that each individual has the opportunity and liberty to succeed. This individualism should infuse our public policy, and our laws. When we see an individual, regardless of their race or background, we should assume that they have the capability to be a high achiever, until they prove, by their own merits, that they don’t.

    As for school performance surveys, they, of course, have their place. But their purpose should largely be to measure the performance of the administration and teachers, by evaluating academic performance of the same or similar student body at different points in time. There’s not really much point, that I can see, in comparing the academic performance of Inglewood High School and Beverly Hills High School, in Los Angeles, and drawing any conclusions as to the relative competencies of their respective staffs. What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.

  • DonS

    sg @ 146: Sure, it is reasonable to attack these studies based on the data. For example, it is almost impossible to design a study based on race which zeroes out all of the other factors, such as economic status, home life, neighborhood influences, etc., which may also impact academic performance. It is similarly impossible to study gender differences in various academic disciplines, such as science or math, while completely accounting for other factors such as gender programming (females are predisposed to focus on different things than males — to have different values) or environment. So the resultant data, which might have indicated that females perform as well as males in math, or that males don’t perform as well as females in writing, doesn’t say anything about the potential performance of an individual or even group of individuals. What I’m trying to say is that statistical norming is an art, not a science, and involves significant assumption.

    But you don’t seem to be attacking the data or the design of the studies as being invalid. You seem to be lending credibility to the data and using it to argue that social spending and affirmative action programs don’t work. It’s a losing battle. For you will always face the counter-argument that the problem is not enough spending, because, obviously, the societal prejudice is even worse than we previously thought. So these groups need even more help than we could have imagined. And, because the problem is so severe, we’re going to have to keep these affirmative action programs in place, um, well, forever.

    The bottom line is these studies are pointless and worthless and, I think, statistically invalid. They engender bad public policy as well, whether that policy be mis-directed social spending, discriminatory laws, or immigration quotas based on nationality, all of which are horrible ideas. They also provide ammunition for people who do have a predisposition to racism. We are a nation which values the individual, and has a mission of ensuring that each individual has the opportunity and liberty to succeed. This individualism should infuse our public policy, and our laws. When we see an individual, regardless of their race or background, we should assume that they have the capability to be a high achiever, until they prove, by their own merits, that they don’t.

    As for school performance surveys, they, of course, have their place. But their purpose should largely be to measure the performance of the administration and teachers, by evaluating academic performance of the same or similar student body at different points in time. There’s not really much point, that I can see, in comparing the academic performance of Inglewood High School and Beverly Hills High School, in Los Angeles, and drawing any conclusions as to the relative competencies of their respective staffs. What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.

  • Grace

    DonS – 148 – “What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.”

    I doubt teachers at Inglewood H.S. are the equivalent to Beverly Hills H.S. — if teachers can obtain positions in better, safer schools, they will, and for that I don’t blame them. Inglewood is one tough area, has been for some time. Beverly Hills is mainly Jewish, as most understand, Jewish kids are made to study by their parents, along with Hebrew school on Saturday.

  • Grace

    DonS – 148 – “What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.”

    I doubt teachers at Inglewood H.S. are the equivalent to Beverly Hills H.S. — if teachers can obtain positions in better, safer schools, they will, and for that I don’t blame them. Inglewood is one tough area, has been for some time. Beverly Hills is mainly Jewish, as most understand, Jewish kids are made to study by their parents, along with Hebrew school on Saturday.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The bottom line is these studies are pointless and worthless and, I think, statistically invalid.”

    No, they aren’t. They just don’t give the answers people want.

    “They engender bad public policy as well, whether that policy be mis-directed social spending, discriminatory laws, or immigration quotas based on nationality, all of which are horrible ideas.”

    Not all of those are horrible ideas. The first two are bad; the last is okay. Of course, a nation (like a parent) has to have confidence to say no to bad ideas that are popular.

    The truth is the numbers are very fair and accurate representations. People wish that they could control everything, but they can’t. We wish genetics had zero influence, but it doesn’t. NCLB raised absolute performance but didn’t change relative performance. So the hobgoblin of American education remains.

    Nature 1,
    Liberal ideology 0.

    “We are a nation which values the individual, and has a mission of ensuring that each individual has the opportunity and liberty to succeed. This individualism should infuse our public policy, and our laws. When we see an individual, regardless of their race or background, we should assume that they have the capability to be a high achiever, until they prove, by their own merits, that they don’t.”

    We do that.

    But folks don’t like the result. They want different people to win. They want certain groups to achieve more.

    “What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.”

    How are you going to measure that? Hopefully not with one of those statistically invalid studies. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The bottom line is these studies are pointless and worthless and, I think, statistically invalid.”

    No, they aren’t. They just don’t give the answers people want.

    “They engender bad public policy as well, whether that policy be mis-directed social spending, discriminatory laws, or immigration quotas based on nationality, all of which are horrible ideas.”

    Not all of those are horrible ideas. The first two are bad; the last is okay. Of course, a nation (like a parent) has to have confidence to say no to bad ideas that are popular.

    The truth is the numbers are very fair and accurate representations. People wish that they could control everything, but they can’t. We wish genetics had zero influence, but it doesn’t. NCLB raised absolute performance but didn’t change relative performance. So the hobgoblin of American education remains.

    Nature 1,
    Liberal ideology 0.

    “We are a nation which values the individual, and has a mission of ensuring that each individual has the opportunity and liberty to succeed. This individualism should infuse our public policy, and our laws. When we see an individual, regardless of their race or background, we should assume that they have the capability to be a high achiever, until they prove, by their own merits, that they don’t.”

    We do that.

    But folks don’t like the result. They want different people to win. They want certain groups to achieve more.

    “What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.”

    How are you going to measure that? Hopefully not with one of those statistically invalid studies. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Another point I want to make is this; it would be wise IF higher education were not put on a pedestal, so as to make those who cannot succeed in that direction, believe they are unworthy or disrespected.”

    It would be cheaper too. Consider those who go to law school and rack up a ton of debt and then never pass the bar exam. That has to be pretty painful. The debt, the opportunity cost, the humiliation, low future earnings, all because someone encouraged them on a path that they thought was best for them, um, even though it wasn’t.
    http://www.lawschool.com/hurtsblacks.htm

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Another point I want to make is this; it would be wise IF higher education were not put on a pedestal, so as to make those who cannot succeed in that direction, believe they are unworthy or disrespected.”

    It would be cheaper too. Consider those who go to law school and rack up a ton of debt and then never pass the bar exam. That has to be pretty painful. The debt, the opportunity cost, the humiliation, low future earnings, all because someone encouraged them on a path that they thought was best for them, um, even though it wasn’t.
    http://www.lawschool.com/hurtsblacks.htm

  • DonS

    Grace @ 149: I just selected Inglewood H.S. and Beverly Hills H.S. because they typify high schools having two widely divergent socioeconomic and racial/ethnic populations. I’m not willing to speculate about Jewish school or teachers choosing Beverly Hills over Inglewood because its easier work. I’m sure the latter is true to some extent, but I do believe there are dedicated teachers that want to make a difference and would choose the bigger challenge, so I don’t think your conclusion is a given.

    That being said, it doesn’t change my point that a more valid way of measuring teacher/administrator performance is to compare the same student body over time vs. comparing two very divergent student bodies.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 149: I just selected Inglewood H.S. and Beverly Hills H.S. because they typify high schools having two widely divergent socioeconomic and racial/ethnic populations. I’m not willing to speculate about Jewish school or teachers choosing Beverly Hills over Inglewood because its easier work. I’m sure the latter is true to some extent, but I do believe there are dedicated teachers that want to make a difference and would choose the bigger challenge, so I don’t think your conclusion is a given.

    That being said, it doesn’t change my point that a more valid way of measuring teacher/administrator performance is to compare the same student body over time vs. comparing two very divergent student bodies.

  • Grace

    sg – I knew one woman, (white) who decided she wanted to go to law school. She went, ….. what was interesting, she didn’t want to take the written test, she had an excuse (sort of) her doctor wrote a letter for her – - she was able to take the bar orally, which meant it would be much easier -

    I might add, she admitted to barely making it through college. She told her professor at one point, tears in eyes that she just had to pass – she did, after her performance, which she boasted. I was surprised she even considered law school.

  • Grace

    sg – I knew one woman, (white) who decided she wanted to go to law school. She went, ….. what was interesting, she didn’t want to take the written test, she had an excuse (sort of) her doctor wrote a letter for her – - she was able to take the bar orally, which meant it would be much easier -

    I might add, she admitted to barely making it through college. She told her professor at one point, tears in eyes that she just had to pass – she did, after her performance, which she boasted. I was surprised she even considered law school.

  • Grace

    DonS – 152

    “I just selected Inglewood H.S. and Beverly Hills H.S. because they typify high schools having two widely divergent socioeconomic and racial/ethnic populations. I’m not willing to speculate about Jewish school or teachers choosing Beverly Hills over Inglewood because its easier work. I’m sure the latter is true to some extent, but I do believe there are dedicated teachers that want to make a difference and would choose the bigger challenge, so I don’t think your conclusion is a given.”

    I am very familiar with both areas. I lived in West L.A. for a long time. It isn’t a matter of “dedication” Inglewood High is a rough school, the reason a teacher wouldn’t choose that school is a matter of crime and personal safety. Just driving in that area is unsafe, especially in the fall and winter when it is pitch black outside by 5 PM. Even during daylight hours the crime and drug problems are extensive. Check with the police departments around both areas. Police officers would much rather be assigned to Beverly Hills than Inglewood or its surrounding area.

    My point was that Jewish kids study harder, their parents make sure of it.

    “That being said, it doesn’t change my point that a more valid way of measuring teacher/administrator performance is to compare the same student body over time vs. comparing two very divergent student bodies.”

    Schools many times get the teachers they deserve, meaning a rough, tough area doesn’t get the best teachers – Parents don’t participate, ….. on and on. We cannot solve all the difficulties of learning, it is up to the parents and children for the most part – in areas of high crime and drugs, you will see low achievement levels, it goes with the territory. The community at large needs to face their own mistakes and make changes, it isn’t up to others to try YET ANOTHER PROGRAM, ANOTHER STUDY -

  • Grace

    DonS – 152

    “I just selected Inglewood H.S. and Beverly Hills H.S. because they typify high schools having two widely divergent socioeconomic and racial/ethnic populations. I’m not willing to speculate about Jewish school or teachers choosing Beverly Hills over Inglewood because its easier work. I’m sure the latter is true to some extent, but I do believe there are dedicated teachers that want to make a difference and would choose the bigger challenge, so I don’t think your conclusion is a given.”

    I am very familiar with both areas. I lived in West L.A. for a long time. It isn’t a matter of “dedication” Inglewood High is a rough school, the reason a teacher wouldn’t choose that school is a matter of crime and personal safety. Just driving in that area is unsafe, especially in the fall and winter when it is pitch black outside by 5 PM. Even during daylight hours the crime and drug problems are extensive. Check with the police departments around both areas. Police officers would much rather be assigned to Beverly Hills than Inglewood or its surrounding area.

    My point was that Jewish kids study harder, their parents make sure of it.

    “That being said, it doesn’t change my point that a more valid way of measuring teacher/administrator performance is to compare the same student body over time vs. comparing two very divergent student bodies.”

    Schools many times get the teachers they deserve, meaning a rough, tough area doesn’t get the best teachers – Parents don’t participate, ….. on and on. We cannot solve all the difficulties of learning, it is up to the parents and children for the most part – in areas of high crime and drugs, you will see low achievement levels, it goes with the territory. The community at large needs to face their own mistakes and make changes, it isn’t up to others to try YET ANOTHER PROGRAM, ANOTHER STUDY -

  • DonS

    sg @ 150: Although I think you are an excellent and incisive thinker and communicator, you have either missed or have chosen to ignore my main point. I guess a third alternative is that we profoundly disagree.

    Let’s start with where we agree — affirmative action laws, quotas and the like are bad ideas. I assume that you acknowledge, as well, that almost all of these studies are done for the very purpose of justifying continued application of these laws and quotas, basically, proving that the U.S. is a racist society.

    Now let’s talk about where we disagree: “the last (immigration quotas based on nationality) are OK”. Really? You would support race/nationality-based immigration quotas like those we had 100 years ago? Without considering individual merit, you would rather admit a dumb Asian than a smart Latino? The whole concept is so anti-individual and anti-merit as to defy logic. It defies the whole concept of equality on which this country was founded to exclude someone simply because of their race or extraction.

    As for the studies themselves, social science is not science. In a laboratory, in a closed system, you can control for variables and be certain that you are measuring only what you want to measure. That cannot be done in a statistical study of an open population. No two people are alike, and no amount of statistical norming can correct for all of the variables that go into making people who they are. In these studies, you have the same problems you do with origin and climate change studies. Assumptions play a huge role in the results. That’s just fact. Moreover, again, even if the results ARE accurate, they are only valid for the studied group, not for individuals who identify (self-identification is one big variable, especially since a significant portion of our population is multi-racial) in that group. Just laws, regulations, and programs necessarily treat people as individuals, not members of a particular ethnic group. You state, in your response, that “we do that”, but some people don’t like the results. True enough. Which is exactly why we need to stop crediting these studies and giving them that ammunition.

    As for your last point, responding to my statement: “What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.” You said “How are you going to measure that? Hopefully not with one of those statistically invalid studies.”

    Actually, you don’t need a statistical study to determine whether gifted students are performing well in a particular school. You just need a report concerning the gifted students and what they have achieved. This could be buttressed with interviews of those students’ parents who would be particularly well situated to opine as to the quality of the teachers and administration of that particular school.

  • DonS

    sg @ 150: Although I think you are an excellent and incisive thinker and communicator, you have either missed or have chosen to ignore my main point. I guess a third alternative is that we profoundly disagree.

    Let’s start with where we agree — affirmative action laws, quotas and the like are bad ideas. I assume that you acknowledge, as well, that almost all of these studies are done for the very purpose of justifying continued application of these laws and quotas, basically, proving that the U.S. is a racist society.

    Now let’s talk about where we disagree: “the last (immigration quotas based on nationality) are OK”. Really? You would support race/nationality-based immigration quotas like those we had 100 years ago? Without considering individual merit, you would rather admit a dumb Asian than a smart Latino? The whole concept is so anti-individual and anti-merit as to defy logic. It defies the whole concept of equality on which this country was founded to exclude someone simply because of their race or extraction.

    As for the studies themselves, social science is not science. In a laboratory, in a closed system, you can control for variables and be certain that you are measuring only what you want to measure. That cannot be done in a statistical study of an open population. No two people are alike, and no amount of statistical norming can correct for all of the variables that go into making people who they are. In these studies, you have the same problems you do with origin and climate change studies. Assumptions play a huge role in the results. That’s just fact. Moreover, again, even if the results ARE accurate, they are only valid for the studied group, not for individuals who identify (self-identification is one big variable, especially since a significant portion of our population is multi-racial) in that group. Just laws, regulations, and programs necessarily treat people as individuals, not members of a particular ethnic group. You state, in your response, that “we do that”, but some people don’t like the results. True enough. Which is exactly why we need to stop crediting these studies and giving them that ammunition.

    As for your last point, responding to my statement: “What I would be more interested in finding out is whether motivated students at Inglewood High School are given a fair opportunity to succeed.” You said “How are you going to measure that? Hopefully not with one of those statistically invalid studies.”

    Actually, you don’t need a statistical study to determine whether gifted students are performing well in a particular school. You just need a report concerning the gifted students and what they have achieved. This could be buttressed with interviews of those students’ parents who would be particularly well situated to opine as to the quality of the teachers and administration of that particular school.

  • Grace

    DonS -

    If there is one quota that has been reached for years, and years to come, it is that of those who cross our border to the south of the United States.

    Even if our country returned 10 million illegals, we would still have reached the quota long, long ago.

    As for Affirmative Action – I long for the day it is over – those who earn good grades, go on to higher education deserve the opportunity – irregardless of ethnicity, skin color or gender.

  • Grace

    DonS -

    If there is one quota that has been reached for years, and years to come, it is that of those who cross our border to the south of the United States.

    Even if our country returned 10 million illegals, we would still have reached the quota long, long ago.

    As for Affirmative Action – I long for the day it is over – those who earn good grades, go on to higher education deserve the opportunity – irregardless of ethnicity, skin color or gender.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 154: With all due respect, you are taking the discussion in a direction that is irrelevant to the point. Obviously, parental involvement is going to be different in a wealthy school than in a poor school, and obviously, the area around a poor school is going to be inherently more dangerous than that around the wealthier school. The point I was making was simply that each school’s faculty should be evaluated based on the performance of that school’s student body over time (i.e. are they improving?), rather than by comparing one school’s performance against that of the other school. You haven’t written anything that indicates you disagree, so let’s leave it at that.

    As for your other point, concerning the respective quality of the two faculties, you may be right in general. I was only saying that some people will choose to do the harder thing, rather than sit in the cushy rich school. This may be because they enjoy the challenge, or because of their love for the students in that poor school, or simply because God has called them there. So, for that reason, I am unwilling to make the assumptions that you are apparently willing to make.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 154: With all due respect, you are taking the discussion in a direction that is irrelevant to the point. Obviously, parental involvement is going to be different in a wealthy school than in a poor school, and obviously, the area around a poor school is going to be inherently more dangerous than that around the wealthier school. The point I was making was simply that each school’s faculty should be evaluated based on the performance of that school’s student body over time (i.e. are they improving?), rather than by comparing one school’s performance against that of the other school. You haven’t written anything that indicates you disagree, so let’s leave it at that.

    As for your other point, concerning the respective quality of the two faculties, you may be right in general. I was only saying that some people will choose to do the harder thing, rather than sit in the cushy rich school. This may be because they enjoy the challenge, or because of their love for the students in that poor school, or simply because God has called them there. So, for that reason, I am unwilling to make the assumptions that you are apparently willing to make.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 156: I hope, when you say that, that you mean we’ve reached our quota of illegals, rather than that we’ve reached our quota of Latinos. If the former, I heartily agree. If the latter, I heartily disagree. The next Latino seeking legal entry into the U.S. may be the one who finds the cure for cancer. I want him/her here to do that, assuming the entry is legal, he/she is here to work and not to collect government benefits. If he/she wants to be a citizen as well, great. Love your country, learn English, and be an American first. Part of the great melting pot. That’s all I ask.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 156: I hope, when you say that, that you mean we’ve reached our quota of illegals, rather than that we’ve reached our quota of Latinos. If the former, I heartily agree. If the latter, I heartily disagree. The next Latino seeking legal entry into the U.S. may be the one who finds the cure for cancer. I want him/her here to do that, assuming the entry is legal, he/she is here to work and not to collect government benefits. If he/she wants to be a citizen as well, great. Love your country, learn English, and be an American first. Part of the great melting pot. That’s all I ask.

  • Grace

    DonS

    “With all due respect, you are taking the discussion in a direction that is irrelevant to the point. Obviously, parental involvement is going to be different in a wealthy school than in a poor school, and obviously, the area around a poor school is going to be inherently more dangerous than that around the wealthier school. The point I was making was simply that each school’s faculty should be evaluated based on the performance of that school’s student body over time (i.e. are they improving?), rather than by comparing one school’s performance against that of the other school. You haven’t written anything that indicates you disagree, so let’s leave it at that.”

    With all due respect to you Don – you are making a comparison about a crime ridden area, vs. a wealthy area, with no middle class areas between – there are more middle class areas than wealthy. The fact you took one of the worst crime, drug slums to make your appeal for a comparison. My comments were not “irrelevant” they were to the point, you desire to minimize the importance -

    I don’t know of ONE school in L.A. County, Orange County, Riverside or San Bernardino counties which are in distressed, crime ridden, drug areas where high school kids are succeeding. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that it takes more than teachers, it takes parents who participate, and kids who are guided at home. It’s a group effort, teachers for the most part in these areas are police officers without the ability to defend themselves.

  • Grace

    DonS

    “With all due respect, you are taking the discussion in a direction that is irrelevant to the point. Obviously, parental involvement is going to be different in a wealthy school than in a poor school, and obviously, the area around a poor school is going to be inherently more dangerous than that around the wealthier school. The point I was making was simply that each school’s faculty should be evaluated based on the performance of that school’s student body over time (i.e. are they improving?), rather than by comparing one school’s performance against that of the other school. You haven’t written anything that indicates you disagree, so let’s leave it at that.”

    With all due respect to you Don – you are making a comparison about a crime ridden area, vs. a wealthy area, with no middle class areas between – there are more middle class areas than wealthy. The fact you took one of the worst crime, drug slums to make your appeal for a comparison. My comments were not “irrelevant” they were to the point, you desire to minimize the importance -

    I don’t know of ONE school in L.A. County, Orange County, Riverside or San Bernardino counties which are in distressed, crime ridden, drug areas where high school kids are succeeding. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that it takes more than teachers, it takes parents who participate, and kids who are guided at home. It’s a group effort, teachers for the most part in these areas are police officers without the ability to defend themselves.

  • Louis

    Kerner @ 126, while waiting for my daughter at her clarinet lesson, I was reading the newest issue of Macleans – and it is focussing on Canadian Universities. Anyway, I found a statistic regarding female vs male enrolement. Currently, it is 57% female, with 24 of the 69 schools having a student body comprised of more than 60% women.

    Also, I know for a fact that in both medicine and vet science the local U of S is female dominated – to the point that I was told at an open day at the latter faculty that a shortage of male vets is developing, especially concerning because large animal practice needs more male vets (this was a female studenbt telling me this). Apparently the only faculty where men still outnumber women at the U of S is engineering.

    Any theories why?

  • Louis

    Kerner @ 126, while waiting for my daughter at her clarinet lesson, I was reading the newest issue of Macleans – and it is focussing on Canadian Universities. Anyway, I found a statistic regarding female vs male enrolement. Currently, it is 57% female, with 24 of the 69 schools having a student body comprised of more than 60% women.

    Also, I know for a fact that in both medicine and vet science the local U of S is female dominated – to the point that I was told at an open day at the latter faculty that a shortage of male vets is developing, especially concerning because large animal practice needs more male vets (this was a female studenbt telling me this). Apparently the only faculty where men still outnumber women at the U of S is engineering.

    Any theories why?

  • Grace

    DonS – 158

    “I hope, when you say that, that you mean we’ve reached our quota of illegals, rather than that we’ve reached our quota of Latinos. If the former, I heartily agree. If the latter, I heartily disagree. The next Latino seeking legal entry into the U.S. may be the one who finds the cure for cancer.”

    IF, and I say IF our country grants amnesty to illegal aliens from south of our border…… THEN, we have reached our quota – however, I believe that if amnesty is not given then it would still be another 10 years before we would allow anyone to come to the U.S. legally. We are overburdened, we don’t have enough jobs for our own citizens, nor can our schools and health resources absorb more cost, making the taxpayer, small business owner, etc., bear the weight.

    Your idea of “cure for cancer” is a weak excuse for bringing more people from south of our border. And then you have to ask? – who will pay for that individuals education, including university, doctorate’s etc.,

  • Grace

    DonS – 158

    “I hope, when you say that, that you mean we’ve reached our quota of illegals, rather than that we’ve reached our quota of Latinos. If the former, I heartily agree. If the latter, I heartily disagree. The next Latino seeking legal entry into the U.S. may be the one who finds the cure for cancer.”

    IF, and I say IF our country grants amnesty to illegal aliens from south of our border…… THEN, we have reached our quota – however, I believe that if amnesty is not given then it would still be another 10 years before we would allow anyone to come to the U.S. legally. We are overburdened, we don’t have enough jobs for our own citizens, nor can our schools and health resources absorb more cost, making the taxpayer, small business owner, etc., bear the weight.

    Your idea of “cure for cancer” is a weak excuse for bringing more people from south of our border. And then you have to ask? – who will pay for that individuals education, including university, doctorate’s etc.,

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Now let’s talk about where we disagree: “the last (immigration quotas based on nationality) are OK”. Really? You would support race/nationality-based immigration quotas like those we had 100 years ago? Without considering individual merit, you would rather admit a dumb Asian than a smart Latino? The whole concept is so anti-individual and anti-merit as to defy logic. It defies the whole concept of equality on which this country was founded to exclude someone simply because of their race or extraction.”

    Sounds like the Japanese policy. Either merit or Japanese ancestry.

    The real point I was making was that we need to embrace our own authority to say no for any reason or no reason. Of course merit is better than just quotas based on national origin. And yes, I would support that.

    I admit, I love numbers. I can’t understand things without them. I am a quantitative thinker. Just my style. I do not believe that a consistent pattern in data arising from nature can be derived from culture. Expressed in standard units, the patterns of relative performance transcend culture, region, nations, language and time, and they do so consistently. In other words, it is natural.

    It may be that some of the studies are counterproductive. Really though it is blaming the messenger for the fact that people don’t like real diversity. People say diversity is great until we define the differences. Then, uh, not so much. They are fine with certain groups dominating sports or when women appear to be excelling, but when other groups document their performance, it is just fuel for jealousy and envy. But hey, we are sinners. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Now let’s talk about where we disagree: “the last (immigration quotas based on nationality) are OK”. Really? You would support race/nationality-based immigration quotas like those we had 100 years ago? Without considering individual merit, you would rather admit a dumb Asian than a smart Latino? The whole concept is so anti-individual and anti-merit as to defy logic. It defies the whole concept of equality on which this country was founded to exclude someone simply because of their race or extraction.”

    Sounds like the Japanese policy. Either merit or Japanese ancestry.

    The real point I was making was that we need to embrace our own authority to say no for any reason or no reason. Of course merit is better than just quotas based on national origin. And yes, I would support that.

    I admit, I love numbers. I can’t understand things without them. I am a quantitative thinker. Just my style. I do not believe that a consistent pattern in data arising from nature can be derived from culture. Expressed in standard units, the patterns of relative performance transcend culture, region, nations, language and time, and they do so consistently. In other words, it is natural.

    It may be that some of the studies are counterproductive. Really though it is blaming the messenger for the fact that people don’t like real diversity. People say diversity is great until we define the differences. Then, uh, not so much. They are fine with certain groups dominating sports or when women appear to be excelling, but when other groups document their performance, it is just fuel for jealousy and envy. But hey, we are sinners. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your idea of “cure for cancer” is a weak excuse for bringing more people from south of our border. And then you have to ask? – who will pay for that individuals education, including university, doctorate’s etc.,”

    Why can’t they come up with the cure for cancer in their own country? Why is that so wrong? We aren’t doing anything cruel or inhumane to just expect people to live in their own countries. It is normal and usual. Other countries have far more restrictive immigration policies, like Mexico for example.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your idea of “cure for cancer” is a weak excuse for bringing more people from south of our border. And then you have to ask? – who will pay for that individuals education, including university, doctorate’s etc.,”

    Why can’t they come up with the cure for cancer in their own country? Why is that so wrong? We aren’t doing anything cruel or inhumane to just expect people to live in their own countries. It is normal and usual. Other countries have far more restrictive immigration policies, like Mexico for example.

  • Grace

    sg – of course they can find a cure for cancer in their own country, but that isn’t what they want to do, they wish to come here, …. after all, look at all the benefits – and then look in the mirror and see who is going to pay! – - why you and I of course!

    If illegals would put as much effort into making their own country profitable, as they do to come here illegally, they would most likely have better lives and prosper where they have come from.

  • Grace

    sg – of course they can find a cure for cancer in their own country, but that isn’t what they want to do, they wish to come here, …. after all, look at all the benefits – and then look in the mirror and see who is going to pay! – - why you and I of course!

    If illegals would put as much effort into making their own country profitable, as they do to come here illegally, they would most likely have better lives and prosper where they have come from.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Any theories why?”

    He, he, what is this, just bait? :-)

    I answered this @ 130

    Anyway, we are so the products of our (recent) culture that demands women work and doesn’t even recognize women’s nature, much less value it. No one cares what women really want. Women are told what to want. A man who knows he is just average and knows that everyone else has the scales tipped in their favor is far more likely not to sign up for a worthless degree. Men understand competition.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Any theories why?”

    He, he, what is this, just bait? :-)

    I answered this @ 130

    Anyway, we are so the products of our (recent) culture that demands women work and doesn’t even recognize women’s nature, much less value it. No one cares what women really want. Women are told what to want. A man who knows he is just average and knows that everyone else has the scales tipped in their favor is far more likely not to sign up for a worthless degree. Men understand competition.

  • Grace

    I should have stated the following:

    The financial condition we as Americans face at this time, would lead me to strongly urge, that this country accept no immigrants until our situation becomes stable, and then only two years after it once again has time to settle -

    We cannot take on more responsibility, it isn’t fair to our children, elder family members or the population at large -

  • Grace

    I should have stated the following:

    The financial condition we as Americans face at this time, would lead me to strongly urge, that this country accept no immigrants until our situation becomes stable, and then only two years after it once again has time to settle -

    We cannot take on more responsibility, it isn’t fair to our children, elder family members or the population at large -

  • kerner

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a socialist backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is a really bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based our perceived (or even verifiably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance only one (and not necessarily even the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

    Before I continue, please watch this (from “Stand and Deliver”).

    This is only historical fiction, but it illustrates the points I want to make. First, the girl’s Dad is right, if you only look at the data of the group. Why give a Latina a chance when so many fail or don’t follow through? But when you consider the individual, it is easy to see why this kid should have a chance to try to excel. Even if she falls short of medical school, she could almost certainly excel beyond her present circumstances. Even if she were to end up in nursing school, we would still say it was worth the effort.

    Second, where Dad actually IS right, is that his own life has not been wasted. He came to the USA with no skills. Started by washing dishes, and now owns a restaurant (even though he apparently never finished high school). While physicians may be more highly valued, this country needs hard working dishwashers and restauranteurs too. We still need our dishes washed and our daily bread (or daily tortillas, as the case may be).

    The thing is, if we limit our analysis to judging chances of academic success by group data, neither dad nor daughter ever gets into the country, much less into college.

    The trait we should be looking for is not potential for academic success (although many who have the most important trait will have that). The trait we should be looking for is a willingness to work hard to get ahead; to compete. People who possess this trait will maximize their potential, however great or small it may be. Their children will be more likely to, in turn, maximize their own potential. The addition of people to our population who maximize their individual potential will strengthen our country as a whole, regardless of each immigrant’s particular ethnicity.

    The way to accomplish this is to adopt a policy of accepting willing workers as immigrants. We can discourage the immigration of people who are not willing workers by severely and strictly limiting immigrants’ access to welfare or entitlement programs, and by encouraging immigration by people who are relatively young and in good health.

    Our present policy discourages immigration by willing workers by imposing strict limitations on immigrants who are likely to compete with American workers. This is grossly misguided. The bedrock of the American economic system is competition. When it becomes our policy to restrict immigration by the dynamic, resourceful, and often quite intelligent (though possibly uneducated) people who want to participate in a competitive system, we are cutting off the most important characteristic necessary to preserve our strength and competitive edge as a nation.

    We have gotten around this huge flaw in our present official policy by unofficially ignoring illegal immigration. We allow swarms of illegals to enter this country, then we try to round up and deport the criminals among them after things get bad enough to attract attention. Every couple of decades we grant some form of amnesty to the millions of hard working non-criminal illegal aliens that we should have allowed to legally enter in the first place, as well as far too many unproductive (but non-criminal) aliens that we can’t find an excuse to exclude.

    This is a ridiculous policy that flies in the face of the concept of the rule of law. We only do it to satisfy protectionist fears, while still tacitly allowing the immigration of willing workers. But this situation will not improve until conservatives abandon the protectionist rhetoric of the left and xenophobic conclusions drawn from “data” concerning general characteristics of entire ethnic groups.

    The main characteristic we should want is not a group characteristic. It is highly individual. Therefore our policy should be focusing on attracting the right kind of individual.

  • kerner

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a socialist backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is a really bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based our perceived (or even verifiably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance only one (and not necessarily even the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

    Before I continue, please watch this (from “Stand and Deliver”).

    This is only historical fiction, but it illustrates the points I want to make. First, the girl’s Dad is right, if you only look at the data of the group. Why give a Latina a chance when so many fail or don’t follow through? But when you consider the individual, it is easy to see why this kid should have a chance to try to excel. Even if she falls short of medical school, she could almost certainly excel beyond her present circumstances. Even if she were to end up in nursing school, we would still say it was worth the effort.

    Second, where Dad actually IS right, is that his own life has not been wasted. He came to the USA with no skills. Started by washing dishes, and now owns a restaurant (even though he apparently never finished high school). While physicians may be more highly valued, this country needs hard working dishwashers and restauranteurs too. We still need our dishes washed and our daily bread (or daily tortillas, as the case may be).

    The thing is, if we limit our analysis to judging chances of academic success by group data, neither dad nor daughter ever gets into the country, much less into college.

    The trait we should be looking for is not potential for academic success (although many who have the most important trait will have that). The trait we should be looking for is a willingness to work hard to get ahead; to compete. People who possess this trait will maximize their potential, however great or small it may be. Their children will be more likely to, in turn, maximize their own potential. The addition of people to our population who maximize their individual potential will strengthen our country as a whole, regardless of each immigrant’s particular ethnicity.

    The way to accomplish this is to adopt a policy of accepting willing workers as immigrants. We can discourage the immigration of people who are not willing workers by severely and strictly limiting immigrants’ access to welfare or entitlement programs, and by encouraging immigration by people who are relatively young and in good health.

    Our present policy discourages immigration by willing workers by imposing strict limitations on immigrants who are likely to compete with American workers. This is grossly misguided. The bedrock of the American economic system is competition. When it becomes our policy to restrict immigration by the dynamic, resourceful, and often quite intelligent (though possibly uneducated) people who want to participate in a competitive system, we are cutting off the most important characteristic necessary to preserve our strength and competitive edge as a nation.

    We have gotten around this huge flaw in our present official policy by unofficially ignoring illegal immigration. We allow swarms of illegals to enter this country, then we try to round up and deport the criminals among them after things get bad enough to attract attention. Every couple of decades we grant some form of amnesty to the millions of hard working non-criminal illegal aliens that we should have allowed to legally enter in the first place, as well as far too many unproductive (but non-criminal) aliens that we can’t find an excuse to exclude.

    This is a ridiculous policy that flies in the face of the concept of the rule of law. We only do it to satisfy protectionist fears, while still tacitly allowing the immigration of willing workers. But this situation will not improve until conservatives abandon the protectionist rhetoric of the left and xenophobic conclusions drawn from “data” concerning general characteristics of entire ethnic groups.

    The main characteristic we should want is not a group characteristic. It is highly individual. Therefore our policy should be focusing on attracting the right kind of individual.

  • kerner

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a socialist backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is a really bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based our perceived (or even verifiably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance only one (and not necessarily even the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

    Before I continue, please watch this (from “Stand and Deliver”).

    This is only historical fiction, but it illustrates the points I want to make. First, the girl’s Dad is right, if you only look at the data of the group. Why give a Latina a chance when so many fail or don’t follow through? But when you consider the individual, it is easy to see why this kid should have a chance to try to excel. Even if she falls short of medical school, she could almost certainly excel beyond her present circumstances. Even if she were to end up in nursing school, we would still say it was worth the effort.

    Second, where Dad actually IS right, is that his own life has not been wasted. He came to the USA with no skills. Started by washing dishes, and now owns a restaurant (even though he apparently never finished high school). While physicians may be more highly valued, this country needs hard working dishwashers and restauranteurs too. We still need our dishes washed and our daily bread (or daily tortillas, as the case may be).

    The thing is, if we limit our analysis to judging chances of academic success by group data, neither dad nor daughter ever gets into the country, much less into college.

    The trait we should be looking for is not potential for academic success (although many who have the most important trait will have that). The trait we should be looking for is a willingness to work hard to get ahead; to compete. People who possess this trait will maximize their potential, however great or small it may be. Their children will be more likely to, in turn, maximize their own potential. The addition of people to our population who maximize their individual potential will strengthen our country as a whole, regardless of each immigrant’s particular ethnicity.

    The way to accomplish this is to adopt a policy of accepting willing workers as immigrants. We can discourage the immigration of people who are not willing workers by severely and strictly limiting immigrants’ access to welfare or entitlement programs, and by encouraging immigration by people who are relatively young and in good health.

    Our present policy discourages immigration by willing workers by imposing strict limitations on immigrants who are likely to compete with American workers. This is grossly misguided. The bedrock of the American economic system is competition. When it becomes our policy to restrict immigration by the dynamic, resourceful, and often quite intelligent (though possibly uneducated) people who want to participate in a competitive system, we are cutting off the most important characteristic necessary to preserve our strength and competitive edge as a nation.

    We have gotten around this huge flaw in our present official policy by unofficially ignoring illegal immigration. We allow swarms of illegals to enter this country, then we try to round up and deport the criminals among them after things get bad enough to attract attention. Every couple of decades we grant some form of amnesty to the millions of hard working non-criminal illegal aliens that we should have allowed to legally enter in the first place, as well as far too many unproductive (but non-criminal) aliens that we can’t find an excuse to exclude.

    This is a ridiculous policy that flies in the face of the concept of the rule of law. We only do it to satisfy protectionist fears, while still tacitly allowing the immigration of willing workers. But this situation will not improve until conservatives abandon the protectionist rhetoric of the left and xenophobic conclusions drawn from “data” concerning general characteristics of entire ethnic groups.

    The main characteristic we should want is not a group characteristic. It is highly individual. Therefore our policy should be focusing on attracting the right kind of individual.

    (If this turns out to be a duplicate comment, I apologize. I submitted, but it doesn’t show up.)

  • kerner

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a socialist backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is a really bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based our perceived (or even verifiably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance only one (and not necessarily even the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

    Before I continue, please watch this (from “Stand and Deliver”).

    This is only historical fiction, but it illustrates the points I want to make. First, the girl’s Dad is right, if you only look at the data of the group. Why give a Latina a chance when so many fail or don’t follow through? But when you consider the individual, it is easy to see why this kid should have a chance to try to excel. Even if she falls short of medical school, she could almost certainly excel beyond her present circumstances. Even if she were to end up in nursing school, we would still say it was worth the effort.

    Second, where Dad actually IS right, is that his own life has not been wasted. He came to the USA with no skills. Started by washing dishes, and now owns a restaurant (even though he apparently never finished high school). While physicians may be more highly valued, this country needs hard working dishwashers and restauranteurs too. We still need our dishes washed and our daily bread (or daily tortillas, as the case may be).

    The thing is, if we limit our analysis to judging chances of academic success by group data, neither dad nor daughter ever gets into the country, much less into college.

    The trait we should be looking for is not potential for academic success (although many who have the most important trait will have that). The trait we should be looking for is a willingness to work hard to get ahead; to compete. People who possess this trait will maximize their potential, however great or small it may be. Their children will be more likely to, in turn, maximize their own potential. The addition of people to our population who maximize their individual potential will strengthen our country as a whole, regardless of each immigrant’s particular ethnicity.

    The way to accomplish this is to adopt a policy of accepting willing workers as immigrants. We can discourage the immigration of people who are not willing workers by severely and strictly limiting immigrants’ access to welfare or entitlement programs, and by encouraging immigration by people who are relatively young and in good health.

    Our present policy discourages immigration by willing workers by imposing strict limitations on immigrants who are likely to compete with American workers. This is grossly misguided. The bedrock of the American economic system is competition. When it becomes our policy to restrict immigration by the dynamic, resourceful, and often quite intelligent (though possibly uneducated) people who want to participate in a competitive system, we are cutting off the most important characteristic necessary to preserve our strength and competitive edge as a nation.

    We have gotten around this huge flaw in our present official policy by unofficially ignoring illegal immigration. We allow swarms of illegals to enter this country, then we try to round up and deport the criminals among them after things get bad enough to attract attention. Every couple of decades we grant some form of amnesty to the millions of hard working non-criminal illegal aliens that we should have allowed to legally enter in the first place, as well as far too many unproductive (but non-criminal) aliens that we can’t find an excuse to exclude.

    This is a ridiculous policy that flies in the face of the concept of the rule of law. We only do it to satisfy protectionist fears, while still tacitly allowing the immigration of willing workers. But this situation will not improve until conservatives abandon the protectionist rhetoric of the left and xenophobic conclusions drawn from “data” concerning general characteristics of entire ethnic groups.

    The main characteristic we should want is not a group characteristic. It is highly individual. Therefore our policy should be focusing on attracting the right kind of individual.

    (If this turns out to be a duplicate comment, I apologize. I submitted, but it doesn’t show up.)

  • kerner

    I hate it when I work hard on a comment that does not show up. well, I’ll break it down.

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only using artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. the USA). A homogeneous population develops into a socialist backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is really a bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based on our perceived (or even verifyably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance is only one (and not necessarily the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

  • kerner

    I hate it when I work hard on a comment that does not show up. well, I’ll break it down.

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only using artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. the USA). A homogeneous population develops into a socialist backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is really a bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based on our perceived (or even verifyably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance is only one (and not necessarily the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

  • kerner

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a soci@list backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is a really bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based our perceived (or even verifiably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance only one (and not necessarily even the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

    Before I continue, please watch this (from “Stand and Deliver”).

    This is only historical fiction, but it illustrates the points I want to make. First, the girl’s Dad is right, if you only look at the data of the group. Why give a Latina a chance when so many fail or don’t follow through? But when you consider the individual, it is easy to see why this kid should have a chance to try to excel. Even if she falls short of medical school, she could almost certainly excel beyond her present circumstances. Even if she were to end up in nursing school, we would still say it was worth the effort.

    Second, where Dad actually IS right, is that his own life has not been wasted. He came to the USA with no skills. Started by washing dishes, and now owns a restaurant (even though he apparently never finished high school). While physicians may be more highly valued, this country needs hard working dishwashers and restauranteurs too. We still need our dishes washed and our daily bread (or daily tortillas, as the case may be).

    The thing is, if we limit our analysis to judging chances of academic success by group data, neither dad nor daughter ever gets into the country, much less into college.

    The trait we should be looking for is not potential for academic success (although many who have the most important trait will have that). The trait we should be looking for is a willingness to work hard to get ahead; to compete. People who possess this trait will maximize their potential, however great or small it may be. Their children will be more likely to, in turn, maximize their own potential. The addition of people to our population who maximize their individual potential will strengthen our country as a whole, regardless of each immigrant’s particular ethnicity.

    The way to accomplish this is to adopt a policy of accepting willing workers as immigrants. We can discourage the immigration of people who are not willing workers by severely and strictly limiting immigrants’ access to welfare or entitlement programs, and by encouraging immigration by people who are relatively young and in good health.

    Our present policy discourages immigration by willing workers by imposing strict limitations on immigrants who are likely to compete with American workers. This is grossly misguided. The bedrock of the American economic system is competition. When it becomes our policy to restrict immigration by the dynamic, resourceful, and often quite intelligent (though possibly uneducated) people who want to participate in a competitive system, we are cutting off the most important characteristic necessary to preserve our strength and competitive edge as a nation.

    We have gotten around this huge flaw in our present official policy by unofficially ignoring illegal immigration. We allow swarms of illegals to enter this country, then we try to round up and deport the criminals among them after things get bad enough to attract attention. Every couple of decades we grant some form of amnesty to the millions of hard working non-criminal illegal aliens that we should have allowed to legally enter in the first place, as well as far too many unproductive (but non-criminal) aliens that we can’t find an excuse to exclude.

    This is a ridiculous policy that flies in the face of the concept of the rule of law. We only do it to satisfy protectionist fears, while still tacitly allowing the immigration of willing workers. But this situation will not improve until conservatives abandon the protectionist rhetoric of the left and xenophobic conclusions drawn from “data” concerning general characteristics of entire ethnic groups.

    The main characteristic we should want is not a group characteristic. It is highly individual. Therefore our policy should be focusing on attracting the right kind of individual.

    (If this turns out to be a duplicate comment, I apologize. I submitted, but it doesn’t show up.)

  • kerner

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a soci@list backwater (eg. Norway).

    See, this is where you and I really do part company. It is a really bad idea to put numerical limits on various countries based our perceived (or even verifiably real) observations about their potential for academic performance. Academic performance only one (and not necessarily even the most important one) of several character traits necessary to succeed in America and strengthen it.

    Before I continue, please watch this (from “Stand and Deliver”).

    This is only historical fiction, but it illustrates the points I want to make. First, the girl’s Dad is right, if you only look at the data of the group. Why give a Latina a chance when so many fail or don’t follow through? But when you consider the individual, it is easy to see why this kid should have a chance to try to excel. Even if she falls short of medical school, she could almost certainly excel beyond her present circumstances. Even if she were to end up in nursing school, we would still say it was worth the effort.

    Second, where Dad actually IS right, is that his own life has not been wasted. He came to the USA with no skills. Started by washing dishes, and now owns a restaurant (even though he apparently never finished high school). While physicians may be more highly valued, this country needs hard working dishwashers and restauranteurs too. We still need our dishes washed and our daily bread (or daily tortillas, as the case may be).

    The thing is, if we limit our analysis to judging chances of academic success by group data, neither dad nor daughter ever gets into the country, much less into college.

    The trait we should be looking for is not potential for academic success (although many who have the most important trait will have that). The trait we should be looking for is a willingness to work hard to get ahead; to compete. People who possess this trait will maximize their potential, however great or small it may be. Their children will be more likely to, in turn, maximize their own potential. The addition of people to our population who maximize their individual potential will strengthen our country as a whole, regardless of each immigrant’s particular ethnicity.

    The way to accomplish this is to adopt a policy of accepting willing workers as immigrants. We can discourage the immigration of people who are not willing workers by severely and strictly limiting immigrants’ access to welfare or entitlement programs, and by encouraging immigration by people who are relatively young and in good health.

    Our present policy discourages immigration by willing workers by imposing strict limitations on immigrants who are likely to compete with American workers. This is grossly misguided. The bedrock of the American economic system is competition. When it becomes our policy to restrict immigration by the dynamic, resourceful, and often quite intelligent (though possibly uneducated) people who want to participate in a competitive system, we are cutting off the most important characteristic necessary to preserve our strength and competitive edge as a nation.

    We have gotten around this huge flaw in our present official policy by unofficially ignoring illegal immigration. We allow swarms of illegals to enter this country, then we try to round up and deport the criminals among them after things get bad enough to attract attention. Every couple of decades we grant some form of amnesty to the millions of hard working non-criminal illegal aliens that we should have allowed to legally enter in the first place, as well as far too many unproductive (but non-criminal) aliens that we can’t find an excuse to exclude.

    This is a ridiculous policy that flies in the face of the concept of the rule of law. We only do it to satisfy protectionist fears, while still tacitly allowing the immigration of willing workers. But this situation will not improve until conservatives abandon the protectionist rhetoric of the left and xenophobic conclusions drawn from “data” concerning general characteristics of entire ethnic groups.

    The main characteristic we should want is not a group characteristic. It is highly individual. Therefore our policy should be focusing on attracting the right kind of individual.

    (If this turns out to be a duplicate comment, I apologize. I submitted, but it doesn’t show up.)

  • kerner

    sg @163:

    The reason they can’t come up with a cure for cancer in their own countries is that their own countries are in the grip of a repressive system that limits opportunity to the priviledged few. They come here because it is easier and less dangerous to do that than to try to overthrow their own systems.

    This is only a single example, not data from a wide spread sutdy, but take Colin Powell.

    Gen. Powell’s parents were immigrants from Jamaica. General Powell is black, which is the most underperforming group according to the statistics we have seen. Jamaica itself, excluding the resorts, is a third world dump, filled with poverty, ignorance, crime, drugs, etc. On paper (one of those statistical studies, anyway), Jamaicans are exactly the kind of people we should keep out.

    According to his biographers, Gen. Powell’s parents valued education, but Gen. Powell himself was an indifferent student. He was born in Harlem and grew up in the South Bronx, he maintained a C average at the City College of New York. Again on paper, you wouldn’t expect such a person to do anything significant with his life.

    So we have Gen. Powell’s ethnic and cultural heritage and individual academic performance all pointing stratisticly to him achieving nothing of note. Yet we know that he rose to the absolute top of his chosen field. As head of the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff, whenever he walked into a room, there were over 2 Million white people who had to stand up and call him “Sir”. He then went on to become Secretary of State.

    If we followed the Japanese policy, Gen. Powell’s parents would never have entered the United States, and he would never have achieved what he did. Given the lack of opportunity there, Colin Powell would have almost certainly accomplished nothing in Jamaica. His parents had to come here for that.

    Now you could say that, every time Gen. Powell advanced, he displaced someone who was more American than he was. But so what? He only displaced his competitors by out-competing them. The competitive system brings the cream to the top, where it belongs.

  • kerner

    sg @163:

    The reason they can’t come up with a cure for cancer in their own countries is that their own countries are in the grip of a repressive system that limits opportunity to the priviledged few. They come here because it is easier and less dangerous to do that than to try to overthrow their own systems.

    This is only a single example, not data from a wide spread sutdy, but take Colin Powell.

    Gen. Powell’s parents were immigrants from Jamaica. General Powell is black, which is the most underperforming group according to the statistics we have seen. Jamaica itself, excluding the resorts, is a third world dump, filled with poverty, ignorance, crime, drugs, etc. On paper (one of those statistical studies, anyway), Jamaicans are exactly the kind of people we should keep out.

    According to his biographers, Gen. Powell’s parents valued education, but Gen. Powell himself was an indifferent student. He was born in Harlem and grew up in the South Bronx, he maintained a C average at the City College of New York. Again on paper, you wouldn’t expect such a person to do anything significant with his life.

    So we have Gen. Powell’s ethnic and cultural heritage and individual academic performance all pointing stratisticly to him achieving nothing of note. Yet we know that he rose to the absolute top of his chosen field. As head of the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff, whenever he walked into a room, there were over 2 Million white people who had to stand up and call him “Sir”. He then went on to become Secretary of State.

    If we followed the Japanese policy, Gen. Powell’s parents would never have entered the United States, and he would never have achieved what he did. Given the lack of opportunity there, Colin Powell would have almost certainly accomplished nothing in Jamaica. His parents had to come here for that.

    Now you could say that, every time Gen. Powell advanced, he displaced someone who was more American than he was. But so what? He only displaced his competitors by out-competing them. The competitive system brings the cream to the top, where it belongs.

  • kerner

    Louis @160:

    sg did indeed answer your question @130, and again @165. I think her theory has some merit to it. I think an additional factor is that one of the first professions that women came to dominate is teaching. Once women dominated teaching, they began to teach in way best suited to girls and the way girls learn. I don’t have the data at hand, but I am sure that I have read of studies showing that boys, as a group, learn differntly than girls do. By not teaching in a manner conducive to boys learning, but which is conducive to girls learning, a predictable result is that girls progress farther in school.

  • kerner

    Louis @160:

    sg did indeed answer your question @130, and again @165. I think her theory has some merit to it. I think an additional factor is that one of the first professions that women came to dominate is teaching. Once women dominated teaching, they began to teach in way best suited to girls and the way girls learn. I don’t have the data at hand, but I am sure that I have read of studies showing that boys, as a group, learn differntly than girls do. By not teaching in a manner conducive to boys learning, but which is conducive to girls learning, a predictable result is that girls progress farther in school.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 168

    “The reason they can’t come up with a cure for cancer in their own countries is that their own countries are in the grip of a repressive system that limits opportunity to the priviledged few. They come here because it is easier and less dangerous to do that than to try to overthrow their own systems.”

    Kerner that the most outrageous reason to admit people below the southern border.

    Kerner have you ever traveled below the southern border, have you been to any of those countries? – We have, guess what, they have medical schools, imagine that – were you aware of this?

  • Grace

    Kerner – 168

    “The reason they can’t come up with a cure for cancer in their own countries is that their own countries are in the grip of a repressive system that limits opportunity to the priviledged few. They come here because it is easier and less dangerous to do that than to try to overthrow their own systems.”

    Kerner that the most outrageous reason to admit people below the southern border.

    Kerner have you ever traveled below the southern border, have you been to any of those countries? – We have, guess what, they have medical schools, imagine that – were you aware of this?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 170

    I live south of the border in Brasil. If you have any questions feel free.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 170

    I live south of the border in Brasil. If you have any questions feel free.

  • Grace

    fws,

    We have never visited Brazil, but we do have friends who were born there. We have had friends from other Latin American countries.

    How do those in Brazil feel about the illegal alien situation we face in the U.S.?

    How many medical schools do you have in Brazil? What are the acceptance requirements? Does Brazil have quality medical?

  • Grace

    fws,

    We have never visited Brazil, but we do have friends who were born there. We have had friends from other Latin American countries.

    How do those in Brazil feel about the illegal alien situation we face in the U.S.?

    How many medical schools do you have in Brazil? What are the acceptance requirements? Does Brazil have quality medical?

  • Grace

    fws – since you have volunteered – what kind of medical treatment can one expect in Brazil – how does it measure up to that in the United States, especially Southern CA?

    Sorry for all the questions, but you asked for it ;)

  • Grace

    fws – since you have volunteered – what kind of medical treatment can one expect in Brazil – how does it measure up to that in the United States, especially Southern CA?

    Sorry for all the questions, but you asked for it ;)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 172

    Q How do those in Brazil feel about the illegal alien situation we face in the U.S.?

    A There are lots of Brasilians in the USA illegally. They watch our tv programs and alot assume that people all live in mansions and dont work much. Even a middle class neighborhood looks like the best neighborhood here. Most Brasilians now hear that things are tough in the usa and lots are returning to Brasil. If they could chose between living in Brasil or the USA and could earn a decent living in Brasil, 99.9% would chose to live…. in Brazil.

    Q How many medical schools in Brasil? are they quality?

    A I am probably not qualified to answer that completely. Doctors seem in some ways better here since they treat people like people and not like a disease on two legs. They spend more time with each patient and listen to complaints about life in general. On the other hand, med school here (like the other professions ) seems more like a narrow vocational technical school choice with no breadth classes required in the humanities like a classic university education would require. so I notice a certain narrow focus and lack of curiosity outside of the narrow functional discipline often. Of course this depends alot , as in the USA on the individual.

    Universities are free. Students only pay for books. but there is a catch: To get into a state university you have to pass an entrance exam. Only the very very rich can send their kids to a private school where they will learn enough to pass that entrance exam. so all the kids at the public universities are white and affluent in a nation where 85% of the population is some mixture of black.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 172

    Q How do those in Brazil feel about the illegal alien situation we face in the U.S.?

    A There are lots of Brasilians in the USA illegally. They watch our tv programs and alot assume that people all live in mansions and dont work much. Even a middle class neighborhood looks like the best neighborhood here. Most Brasilians now hear that things are tough in the usa and lots are returning to Brasil. If they could chose between living in Brasil or the USA and could earn a decent living in Brasil, 99.9% would chose to live…. in Brazil.

    Q How many medical schools in Brasil? are they quality?

    A I am probably not qualified to answer that completely. Doctors seem in some ways better here since they treat people like people and not like a disease on two legs. They spend more time with each patient and listen to complaints about life in general. On the other hand, med school here (like the other professions ) seems more like a narrow vocational technical school choice with no breadth classes required in the humanities like a classic university education would require. so I notice a certain narrow focus and lack of curiosity outside of the narrow functional discipline often. Of course this depends alot , as in the USA on the individual.

    Universities are free. Students only pay for books. but there is a catch: To get into a state university you have to pass an entrance exam. Only the very very rich can send their kids to a private school where they will learn enough to pass that entrance exam. so all the kids at the public universities are white and affluent in a nation where 85% of the population is some mixture of black.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 173

    Depends. I have GREAT doctors in the USA who bend over backwards to serve me and meet my needs and are very very human. I give the edge to my doctors in the USA.

    but… I have also met some exceptional doctors here in Brazil who are able better to step creatively outside of the narrow box that some us doctors are in.

    public hospitals were great … in the 60s. Brasil has a constitution modeled after european socialist governments. Brasil started out as a monarchy, so I guess that makes historical sense. But brasil is poor and cant afford the “employee rights” detailed in their constitution, so it is holding them back economically, and at the same time , well…. lets just say the situation is problematic….

    today if you show up at a public hospital, they will probably take you , but if you have a surgery dont expect the scar to look like anything but really ugly , and , your family will need to buy all the medicines and supplies…. I have a private medical plan I pay $US 300 a month for just for that reason… to land in a private hospital just in case….. But again, you can imagine that the doctors and nurses in those hospitals are rather heroic. They COULD work elsewhere. They chose to serve in a very frustrating environment. So that looks like love and mercy.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @ 173

    Depends. I have GREAT doctors in the USA who bend over backwards to serve me and meet my needs and are very very human. I give the edge to my doctors in the USA.

    but… I have also met some exceptional doctors here in Brazil who are able better to step creatively outside of the narrow box that some us doctors are in.

    public hospitals were great … in the 60s. Brasil has a constitution modeled after european socialist governments. Brasil started out as a monarchy, so I guess that makes historical sense. But brasil is poor and cant afford the “employee rights” detailed in their constitution, so it is holding them back economically, and at the same time , well…. lets just say the situation is problematic….

    today if you show up at a public hospital, they will probably take you , but if you have a surgery dont expect the scar to look like anything but really ugly , and , your family will need to buy all the medicines and supplies…. I have a private medical plan I pay $US 300 a month for just for that reason… to land in a private hospital just in case….. But again, you can imagine that the doctors and nurses in those hospitals are rather heroic. They COULD work elsewhere. They chose to serve in a very frustrating environment. So that looks like love and mercy.

  • Grace

    fws, Since I was very much a part of medicine, your remarks are valuable. I am still involved, but switched to research.

    YOU WROTE: “I am probably not qualified to answer that completely. Doctors seem in some ways better here since they treat people like people and not like a disease on two legs. They spend more time with each patient and listen to complaints about life in general.”

    My observations are the opposite – however, my questions and interaction are most likely different than other patients.

    I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to be treated as “a disease on two legs” – there are doctors everywhere who have no compassion. It wouldn’t matter what the disease, a human life is precious.

    I do understand those from Brazil would rather be back in their homeland. For the most part, I believe most people favour the land the identify as their own.

    Our friends from Brazil are from Greece and Europe.

  • Grace

    fws, Since I was very much a part of medicine, your remarks are valuable. I am still involved, but switched to research.

    YOU WROTE: “I am probably not qualified to answer that completely. Doctors seem in some ways better here since they treat people like people and not like a disease on two legs. They spend more time with each patient and listen to complaints about life in general.”

    My observations are the opposite – however, my questions and interaction are most likely different than other patients.

    I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to be treated as “a disease on two legs” – there are doctors everywhere who have no compassion. It wouldn’t matter what the disease, a human life is precious.

    I do understand those from Brazil would rather be back in their homeland. For the most part, I believe most people favour the land the identify as their own.

    Our friends from Brazil are from Greece and Europe.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 175
    “I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to be treated as “a disease on two legs” – there are doctors everywhere who have no compassion. It wouldn’t matter what the disease, a human life is precious.”

    I think they have compassion, but they have to shoehorn that compassion into a 10 minute slot and then move onto the next patient. It must be really tough on doctors emotionally.

    And I read somewhere that doctors are not trained as well these days on doing a medical examination and diagnosing symptoms. Like all professions that are growing at a blur, there is an overreliance on pharmaceuticals and instruments and tests.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 175
    “I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to be treated as “a disease on two legs” – there are doctors everywhere who have no compassion. It wouldn’t matter what the disease, a human life is precious.”

    I think they have compassion, but they have to shoehorn that compassion into a 10 minute slot and then move onto the next patient. It must be really tough on doctors emotionally.

    And I read somewhere that doctors are not trained as well these days on doing a medical examination and diagnosing symptoms. Like all professions that are growing at a blur, there is an overreliance on pharmaceuticals and instruments and tests.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 175

    my mom and grandmother were nurses. My grandfather trained to be a doctor and almost finished.

    what kinda research do you do? what part of medicine were you in before? Hope u dont mind the questions . Just curious. what parta california u live in? LA has a few pretty good brasilian restaurants….

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 175

    my mom and grandmother were nurses. My grandfather trained to be a doctor and almost finished.

    what kinda research do you do? what part of medicine were you in before? Hope u dont mind the questions . Just curious. what parta california u live in? LA has a few pretty good brasilian restaurants….

  • Grace

    fws – 176

    I was in radiology – the research I do now is political and Biblical – to a lessor degree medicine and a few others.

    Let’s just say I live close to the pacific ocean in Southern CA.

    Which restaurants in L.A. would you suggest, or the surrounding area ?

  • Grace

    fws – 176

    I was in radiology – the research I do now is political and Biblical – to a lessor degree medicine and a few others.

    Let’s just say I live close to the pacific ocean in Southern CA.

    Which restaurants in L.A. would you suggest, or the surrounding area ?

  • Grace

    fws – 176

    “my mom and grandmother were nurses. My grandfather trained to be a doctor and almost finished.”

    That is no small feat.

    Your mother, grandmother and grandfather must have been very special people, dedicating their lives to help others. Medicine isn’t easy – those who nurture the sick, have a special calling, perhaps one can say they are driven to helping those who are ill. You are very blessed to come from such a family.

  • Grace

    fws – 176

    “my mom and grandmother were nurses. My grandfather trained to be a doctor and almost finished.”

    That is no small feat.

    Your mother, grandmother and grandfather must have been very special people, dedicating their lives to help others. Medicine isn’t easy – those who nurture the sick, have a special calling, perhaps one can say they are driven to helping those who are ill. You are very blessed to come from such a family.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    “Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a soci@list backwater (eg. Norway).”

    When we developed our military and economy to become a major world player, we weren’t particularly integrated. So your facts are wrong. Before you get upset and what you think you read, I am only stating facts. Obviously we have integrated many great folks from all over. However, that is not a cause of our greatness, rather a testament to the quality of our values, values which specifically are not shared by many who come here. They have diverse values.

    I won’t defend so—–ism, but honestly, have you been to Norway? It is not now nor was it ever, in relative terms, some sort of wretched hole. This is a silly argument. They are good global citizens. Why do you disparage them? Why not disparage a large, diverse country like Mexico, that has significant problems and causes its neighbors great grief? Norwegians have low crime (other than the immigrants) and good quality of life. And they did it themselves. They organized themselves into a livable and decent society with low poverty rates etc. No one did it for them.

    Likewise the colonists in the USA set up our government. We built it. Yes, it is awesome and naturally attracts folks. The problem is when you attract folks who have never built a quality society on their own. They can neither build nor maintain such a society. They have sky high rates of disfunction like crime and illegitimacy and few (not zero) are interested in education.

    As for the diversity thing, look, the founders were very concerned about how large scale you could go with a republic. Every functioning nation that went empire had problems with diversity. People really don’t love dealing with folks with different values. You never know where you stand. This is just reality.

    Diversity is the enemy of unity.

    That is why it is so nice to have many countries. Each nation can live comfortably among folks who are reasonably similar. Nations just grew from families. Their shared heritage gave them something in common. Even now about half of Americans can trace their families back to the founding of the country. The demand that all western nations integrate huge numbers of foreigners from, frankly, rather uncivilized places is an unfair burden on us. We are willing to trade and deal with them as they live and develop their own lands. Really it would be good for them to do it. We did it, and they can, too. It is a struggle, but if they are so able then they can figure it out. If they are not able, then we are fools to let them come destroy the most livable countries in the world and turn every nation in the world into high crime, low trust societies like the ones they come from.

    As for your points about immigration, I (and others) have made it clear that unscreened illegals are the problem not immigrants generally, so you are just attacking a straw man.

    I am not sure why you cling to your baseless notions of foreigners being more willing workers. They are only willing because they have no alternatives. I posted labor participation rates. Folks here are willing to work also when they have no alternatives. If we had no immigration, we would be fine and we don’t owe the world opportunities. We created ours, they can create theirs.

    Now, I think it is fine to invite immigrants as a general rule, even some who haven’t proved they are star performers, but I feel exactly no obligation to do so, and judging by the immigration statutes of other nations, this sentiment seems rather ubiquitous.

    As for anecdotes, I am not sure the point. Do you think I don’t know such things? I just don’t find them persuasive. Numbers persuade me. Numbers define trends. Numbers tell the whole story not just one tiny piece. I feel confident that if the numbers favored your view, you would point them out. They don’t, so you can’t.

    Gratuitous western culture link

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “a homogeneous population does better than an integrated one.”
    sg@133

    “Only by artificial criteria. In the real world, an integrated population develops a military and an economy that dominates the world (eg. USA). A homogeneous population develops into a soci@list backwater (eg. Norway).”

    When we developed our military and economy to become a major world player, we weren’t particularly integrated. So your facts are wrong. Before you get upset and what you think you read, I am only stating facts. Obviously we have integrated many great folks from all over. However, that is not a cause of our greatness, rather a testament to the quality of our values, values which specifically are not shared by many who come here. They have diverse values.

    I won’t defend so—–ism, but honestly, have you been to Norway? It is not now nor was it ever, in relative terms, some sort of wretched hole. This is a silly argument. They are good global citizens. Why do you disparage them? Why not disparage a large, diverse country like Mexico, that has significant problems and causes its neighbors great grief? Norwegians have low crime (other than the immigrants) and good quality of life. And they did it themselves. They organized themselves into a livable and decent society with low poverty rates etc. No one did it for them.

    Likewise the colonists in the USA set up our government. We built it. Yes, it is awesome and naturally attracts folks. The problem is when you attract folks who have never built a quality society on their own. They can neither build nor maintain such a society. They have sky high rates of disfunction like crime and illegitimacy and few (not zero) are interested in education.

    As for the diversity thing, look, the founders were very concerned about how large scale you could go with a republic. Every functioning nation that went empire had problems with diversity. People really don’t love dealing with folks with different values. You never know where you stand. This is just reality.

    Diversity is the enemy of unity.

    That is why it is so nice to have many countries. Each nation can live comfortably among folks who are reasonably similar. Nations just grew from families. Their shared heritage gave them something in common. Even now about half of Americans can trace their families back to the founding of the country. The demand that all western nations integrate huge numbers of foreigners from, frankly, rather uncivilized places is an unfair burden on us. We are willing to trade and deal with them as they live and develop their own lands. Really it would be good for them to do it. We did it, and they can, too. It is a struggle, but if they are so able then they can figure it out. If they are not able, then we are fools to let them come destroy the most livable countries in the world and turn every nation in the world into high crime, low trust societies like the ones they come from.

    As for your points about immigration, I (and others) have made it clear that unscreened illegals are the problem not immigrants generally, so you are just attacking a straw man.

    I am not sure why you cling to your baseless notions of foreigners being more willing workers. They are only willing because they have no alternatives. I posted labor participation rates. Folks here are willing to work also when they have no alternatives. If we had no immigration, we would be fine and we don’t owe the world opportunities. We created ours, they can create theirs.

    Now, I think it is fine to invite immigrants as a general rule, even some who haven’t proved they are star performers, but I feel exactly no obligation to do so, and judging by the immigration statutes of other nations, this sentiment seems rather ubiquitous.

    As for anecdotes, I am not sure the point. Do you think I don’t know such things? I just don’t find them persuasive. Numbers persuade me. Numbers define trends. Numbers tell the whole story not just one tiny piece. I feel confident that if the numbers favored your view, you would point them out. They don’t, so you can’t.

    Gratuitous western culture link

  • kerner

    I have been south of our southern border only once. In 2008 I went to Ciudad Juarez. And what I saw there were miles and miles of slums. People were living in shacks made of garbage; scraps of things that would be thrown away in the USA. Somebody from one of those shacks will never go to a Mexican medical school nor will his children or grandchildren no matter how talented they may be. There is nothing in Mexico like the economic mobility we have in the United States.

    If you are wondering what I was doing in a place like Juarez, my church, in conjunction with an organization called “Casas por Christos”, financed and sent a mission to build a house for a family living in those slums. So take heart. Maybe that family, at least, will stay there and live in it.

  • kerner

    I have been south of our southern border only once. In 2008 I went to Ciudad Juarez. And what I saw there were miles and miles of slums. People were living in shacks made of garbage; scraps of things that would be thrown away in the USA. Somebody from one of those shacks will never go to a Mexican medical school nor will his children or grandchildren no matter how talented they may be. There is nothing in Mexico like the economic mobility we have in the United States.

    If you are wondering what I was doing in a place like Juarez, my church, in conjunction with an organization called “Casas por Christos”, financed and sent a mission to build a house for a family living in those slums. So take heart. Maybe that family, at least, will stay there and live in it.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 180

    “I have been south of our southern border only once. In 2008 I went to Ciudad Juarez. And what I saw there were miles and miles of slums. People were living in shacks made of garbage; scraps of things that would be thrown away in the USA. Somebody from one of those shacks will never go to a Mexican medical school nor will his children or grandchildren no matter how talented they may be. There is nothing in Mexico like the economic mobility we have in the United States.”

    Kerner that must have left a real impression on you.

    “If you are wondering what I was doing in a place like Juarez, my church, in conjunction with an organization called “Casas por Christos”, financed and sent a mission to build a house for a family living in those slums. So take heart. Maybe that family, at least, will stay there and live in it.”

    What you saw and expereinced are the “slums” – Mexixo is not all slums, but it certainly isn’t middle class U.S.

    The problem with these mission trips is this – those who go to places like you did, see only the worst of the worst, they don’t see or visit the areas that are very different. You can’t compare what you saw to everything else in Mexico. Do you understand that people from my country visit Mexico, enjoy the culture, etc., it isn’t all ugly, or barren, there is more to Mexico than what you saw.

    Did the family you were helping…. help build the house? – sometimes they pitch in, and sometimes it is those from the states and young college kids who do all the work while others spend time watching.

    Churches need to TEACH those in the country you worked in to do the labor themselves. It’s the old “teach a man to fish and he will live” don’t just give him a fish!

  • Grace

    Kerner – 180

    “I have been south of our southern border only once. In 2008 I went to Ciudad Juarez. And what I saw there were miles and miles of slums. People were living in shacks made of garbage; scraps of things that would be thrown away in the USA. Somebody from one of those shacks will never go to a Mexican medical school nor will his children or grandchildren no matter how talented they may be. There is nothing in Mexico like the economic mobility we have in the United States.”

    Kerner that must have left a real impression on you.

    “If you are wondering what I was doing in a place like Juarez, my church, in conjunction with an organization called “Casas por Christos”, financed and sent a mission to build a house for a family living in those slums. So take heart. Maybe that family, at least, will stay there and live in it.”

    What you saw and expereinced are the “slums” – Mexixo is not all slums, but it certainly isn’t middle class U.S.

    The problem with these mission trips is this – those who go to places like you did, see only the worst of the worst, they don’t see or visit the areas that are very different. You can’t compare what you saw to everything else in Mexico. Do you understand that people from my country visit Mexico, enjoy the culture, etc., it isn’t all ugly, or barren, there is more to Mexico than what you saw.

    Did the family you were helping…. help build the house? – sometimes they pitch in, and sometimes it is those from the states and young college kids who do all the work while others spend time watching.

    Churches need to TEACH those in the country you worked in to do the labor themselves. It’s the old “teach a man to fish and he will live” don’t just give him a fish!

  • DonS

    Grace @ 159: My point was solely that you cannot compare the academic performances of two different disparate schools, and from that raw data determine which faculty is doing the better job. That’s all I was saying. “Middle class” has nothing to do with my point, because it applies to any two schools. To measure the performance of a school faculty, you need to evaluate academic improvement of that school’s population over time.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 159: My point was solely that you cannot compare the academic performances of two different disparate schools, and from that raw data determine which faculty is doing the better job. That’s all I was saying. “Middle class” has nothing to do with my point, because it applies to any two schools. To measure the performance of a school faculty, you need to evaluate academic improvement of that school’s population over time.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 161: The number of legal immigrants to admit each year is one policy matter. I don’t have a strong opinion on that, other than to confess a leaning toward a more open society, assuming that we develop the will to control and minimize illegal immigration. However, I would strongly oppose any attempts to control legal immigration by establishing a quota by racial or ethnic group. We are a society that honors individual rights and responsibilities, and our immigration policy should reflect our unique values in this area.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 161: The number of legal immigrants to admit each year is one policy matter. I don’t have a strong opinion on that, other than to confess a leaning toward a more open society, assuming that we develop the will to control and minimize illegal immigration. However, I would strongly oppose any attempts to control legal immigration by establishing a quota by racial or ethnic group. We are a society that honors individual rights and responsibilities, and our immigration policy should reflect our unique values in this area.

  • DonS

    sg @ 162: “Sounds like the Japanese policy. Either merit or Japanese ancestry. The real point I was making was that we need to embrace our own authority to say no for any reason or no reason. Of course merit is better than just quotas based on national origin. And yes, I would support that. ”

    Yes, I believe you are right. But the Japanese policy is a terrible one that has stagnated their economy and society for twenty years. Americans seldom try to establish business footholds in Japan anymore because of its increasing insularity and unfair treatment of those not Japanese. Their loss. I agree with you that we have the right to establish whatever immigration policy we want to. But, that is no excuse to establish a bad one that flaunts the very values our country was founded on.

    Numbers are fine. I like them too. But, you are basically admitting that these race studies are designed and funded, often using public money, to provide evidence for continued discriminatory policies by our government institutions. There is no legitimate purpose for these studies, because there can be no legitimate response to them. It is a leftist game to evaluate people as members of groups, rather than as individuals. We should resist such efforts as being unAmerican and dehumanizing.

  • DonS

    sg @ 162: “Sounds like the Japanese policy. Either merit or Japanese ancestry. The real point I was making was that we need to embrace our own authority to say no for any reason or no reason. Of course merit is better than just quotas based on national origin. And yes, I would support that. ”

    Yes, I believe you are right. But the Japanese policy is a terrible one that has stagnated their economy and society for twenty years. Americans seldom try to establish business footholds in Japan anymore because of its increasing insularity and unfair treatment of those not Japanese. Their loss. I agree with you that we have the right to establish whatever immigration policy we want to. But, that is no excuse to establish a bad one that flaunts the very values our country was founded on.

    Numbers are fine. I like them too. But, you are basically admitting that these race studies are designed and funded, often using public money, to provide evidence for continued discriminatory policies by our government institutions. There is no legitimate purpose for these studies, because there can be no legitimate response to them. It is a leftist game to evaluate people as members of groups, rather than as individuals. We should resist such efforts as being unAmerican and dehumanizing.

  • DonS

    sg @ 163: It is a reasonable policy choice to have substantially closed borders. I wouldn’t agree with it, for any number of reasons, but I have no problems with such a policy choice if that is what people want. However, I would have a serious problem with an immigration quota system, allocating entry slots to particular national or ethnic groups, or excluding people of certain ethnicity because “we have enough of those people already”. Any immigration policy we have should be based on merits, and consider potential entrants as individuals, for what they potentially offer our country in exchange for the opportunity to live and work here.

  • DonS

    sg @ 163: It is a reasonable policy choice to have substantially closed borders. I wouldn’t agree with it, for any number of reasons, but I have no problems with such a policy choice if that is what people want. However, I would have a serious problem with an immigration quota system, allocating entry slots to particular national or ethnic groups, or excluding people of certain ethnicity because “we have enough of those people already”. Any immigration policy we have should be based on merits, and consider potential entrants as individuals, for what they potentially offer our country in exchange for the opportunity to live and work here.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 167: I agree with your point, and your proposed policy. I would add, however, that it is not diversity or homogeneity which is the issue. It is, rather, the consideration of people as individuals, rather than members of groups, and admitting the most meritorious people, regardless of their extraction. So, you could potentially end up with a very diverse or a very homogeneous group of immigrants. No matter. What matters is that there was no prejudice involved in the admissions process.

    Ultimately, of course, we need to discard the wretched concept of multiculturalism, in favor of the classic American melting pot. We are one people. Americans.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 167: I agree with your point, and your proposed policy. I would add, however, that it is not diversity or homogeneity which is the issue. It is, rather, the consideration of people as individuals, rather than members of groups, and admitting the most meritorious people, regardless of their extraction. So, you could potentially end up with a very diverse or a very homogeneous group of immigrants. No matter. What matters is that there was no prejudice involved in the admissions process.

    Ultimately, of course, we need to discard the wretched concept of multiculturalism, in favor of the classic American melting pot. We are one people. Americans.

  • Grace

    DonS – 182

    “Grace @ 159: My point was solely that you cannot compare the academic performances of two different disparate schools, and from that raw data determine which faculty is doing the better job. That’s all I was saying. “Middle class” has nothing to do with my point, because it applies to any two schools. To measure the performance of a school faculty, you need to evaluate academic improvement of that school’s population over time.”

    Don – there is no comparison when you take the most wealthy of the wealthy , …. and that of Jewish heritage who are instructed by their parents, school, teachers and anyone else who chooses to jump in. AND THEN COMPARE THEM to the slum of Inglewood? Either you are unaware of your outrageous comparison, or you just want to light the flame of argument regarding illegal aliens. Either way you’ve made yourself transparent -

    Don, in CA. (that is where you live right) we do not have the funds to do all the ducky doo comparisons – Middle class has everything to do with the equation – those who are proponents of illegal alien status never bring up this fact, nor do they want to face it either.

    Faculty isn’t the problem Don,….. it is the parents and the kids You blame everyone except those who are supervising, or the children who don’t respond in the classroom. The system doesn’t work, Affirmative Action is a farce, we cannot give special award to those who have not earned the grades – You hang on ‘evaluation’ – the time is past, the state cannot pay its bills. The parents have played those of us who pay the taxes for fools.

  • Grace

    DonS – 182

    “Grace @ 159: My point was solely that you cannot compare the academic performances of two different disparate schools, and from that raw data determine which faculty is doing the better job. That’s all I was saying. “Middle class” has nothing to do with my point, because it applies to any two schools. To measure the performance of a school faculty, you need to evaluate academic improvement of that school’s population over time.”

    Don – there is no comparison when you take the most wealthy of the wealthy , …. and that of Jewish heritage who are instructed by their parents, school, teachers and anyone else who chooses to jump in. AND THEN COMPARE THEM to the slum of Inglewood? Either you are unaware of your outrageous comparison, or you just want to light the flame of argument regarding illegal aliens. Either way you’ve made yourself transparent -

    Don, in CA. (that is where you live right) we do not have the funds to do all the ducky doo comparisons – Middle class has everything to do with the equation – those who are proponents of illegal alien status never bring up this fact, nor do they want to face it either.

    Faculty isn’t the problem Don,….. it is the parents and the kids You blame everyone except those who are supervising, or the children who don’t respond in the classroom. The system doesn’t work, Affirmative Action is a farce, we cannot give special award to those who have not earned the grades – You hang on ‘evaluation’ – the time is past, the state cannot pay its bills. The parents have played those of us who pay the taxes for fools.

  • Grace

    DonS – 183

    ” We are a society that honors individual rights and responsibilities, and our immigration policy should reflect our unique values in this area.”

    What “honors individual rights” Don, can you find in cheating, lying to receive that which you don’t deserve?

    Our immigration policy is a sham, unless it weeds out every single illegal alien and sends them packing. There is no value in taking that which doesn’t belong to one….. OR choosing to rally for those who do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Grace

    DonS – 183

    ” We are a society that honors individual rights and responsibilities, and our immigration policy should reflect our unique values in this area.”

    What “honors individual rights” Don, can you find in cheating, lying to receive that which you don’t deserve?

    Our immigration policy is a sham, unless it weeds out every single illegal alien and sends them packing. There is no value in taking that which doesn’t belong to one….. OR choosing to rally for those who do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Grace

    DonS – 186

    “Ultimately, of course, we need to discard the wretched concept of multiculturalism, in favor of the classic American melting pot. We are one people. Americans.”

    “Melting pot” is a provincial phrase made known by those who want everyone to be the same, without cultural difference, … it doesn’t work, it is a fraud, a false impostor of the truth.

    Either “multiculturalism” or “melting pot” is not correct. Because our forefathers came here, does not mean we or they, left our/their culture. I am an American, however my roots are from Europe, they aren’t Asian, Mexican, Middle East, Latin American, African, or any other – they are European, ….. in this way we as European’s keep our culture, it is very important, we are not all going to jump into a pot and turn into a beige color with no origin, no background, nothing…. just a pot of melting Americans. This might be your ideal, but it certainly isn’t mine, nor anyone else I know.

  • Grace

    DonS – 186

    “Ultimately, of course, we need to discard the wretched concept of multiculturalism, in favor of the classic American melting pot. We are one people. Americans.”

    “Melting pot” is a provincial phrase made known by those who want everyone to be the same, without cultural difference, … it doesn’t work, it is a fraud, a false impostor of the truth.

    Either “multiculturalism” or “melting pot” is not correct. Because our forefathers came here, does not mean we or they, left our/their culture. I am an American, however my roots are from Europe, they aren’t Asian, Mexican, Middle East, Latin American, African, or any other – they are European, ….. in this way we as European’s keep our culture, it is very important, we are not all going to jump into a pot and turn into a beige color with no origin, no background, nothing…. just a pot of melting Americans. This might be your ideal, but it certainly isn’t mine, nor anyone else I know.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 187: Sigh. Maybe it’s the hour, but I just don’t think you are understanding my point at all. At this juncture, I’m not sure I do either :-)

    To clarify — I was arguing AGAINST the concept of comparing the wealthiest of the wealthy to the “slums” of Inglewood! Again, (and at this point I barely remember why) someone had made an observation concerning faculty performance based on the performance of their school, compared to that of a different, much wealthier school. My response to that comparison was to say that it is INVALID. You cannot compare the performance of faculty at different schools by comparing the academic performance of those schools to one another. I think we AGREE on that, don’t we? So why do you keep arguing with me????? Stop it!!

    I took things a step further by saying that the way to measure the performance of a particular faculty is to measure the improvement in the student body of the school over time. I don’t think this should be a particularly controversial observation, do you?

  • DonS

    Grace @ 187: Sigh. Maybe it’s the hour, but I just don’t think you are understanding my point at all. At this juncture, I’m not sure I do either :-)

    To clarify — I was arguing AGAINST the concept of comparing the wealthiest of the wealthy to the “slums” of Inglewood! Again, (and at this point I barely remember why) someone had made an observation concerning faculty performance based on the performance of their school, compared to that of a different, much wealthier school. My response to that comparison was to say that it is INVALID. You cannot compare the performance of faculty at different schools by comparing the academic performance of those schools to one another. I think we AGREE on that, don’t we? So why do you keep arguing with me????? Stop it!!

    I took things a step further by saying that the way to measure the performance of a particular faculty is to measure the improvement in the student body of the school over time. I don’t think this should be a particularly controversial observation, do you?

  • DonS

    Grace @ 188: We agree that illegal immigration needs to be forcefully dealt with. It is important to our credibility as a nation and to those who attempt entry legally. I have stated this numerous times, and suggested approaches for dealing with the problem.

    The statement you are quoting was made in connection with my views related to LEGAL immigration. That is a totally different animal, don’t you think?

  • DonS

    Grace @ 188: We agree that illegal immigration needs to be forcefully dealt with. It is important to our credibility as a nation and to those who attempt entry legally. I have stated this numerous times, and suggested approaches for dealing with the problem.

    The statement you are quoting was made in connection with my views related to LEGAL immigration. That is a totally different animal, don’t you think?

  • DonS

    Grace @ 189: ““Melting pot” is a provincial phrase made known by those who want everyone to be the same, without cultural difference, … it doesn’t work, it is a fraud, a false impostor of the truth. ”

    Huh??? That is not MY definition of “melting pot”. What made America great was that immigrants came to this country and became AMERICANS! They loved their country and worked alongside fellow Americans to build lives for themselves and their families. It doesn’t mean you forget your cultural heritage. By all means, you should honor your heritage and teach it to your children. You should be proud of where you came from.

    But, on the 4th of July, you celebrate and proudly fly the American flag, not the Italian, French, or Mexican one. You love your country, and the values it upholds.

    Do you have a problem with this?

  • DonS

    Grace @ 189: ““Melting pot” is a provincial phrase made known by those who want everyone to be the same, without cultural difference, … it doesn’t work, it is a fraud, a false impostor of the truth. ”

    Huh??? That is not MY definition of “melting pot”. What made America great was that immigrants came to this country and became AMERICANS! They loved their country and worked alongside fellow Americans to build lives for themselves and their families. It doesn’t mean you forget your cultural heritage. By all means, you should honor your heritage and teach it to your children. You should be proud of where you came from.

    But, on the 4th of July, you celebrate and proudly fly the American flag, not the Italian, French, or Mexican one. You love your country, and the values it upholds.

    Do you have a problem with this?

  • kerner

    sg@179:

    There is so much to respond to in this comment that it is difficult to know where to begin. I suppose pointing out that Georg Frederick Handel was an immigrant (from Germany to England) is pretty irrelevant, but I just can’t help myself. ;)

    But let’s start with the language you use. Have you noticed that when you talk about American accomplishments you are always speaking in the past tense? You always speak of what we HAVE BUILT, not what we ARE GOING TO BUILD. Your motivation is the fear that someone (or some group) will come along and take away “the good life our ancestors have built”. This is the attitude of a culture in decline. It is also the attitude of most of the industrialized western countries, which are (not coincidently, I believe) cultures in decline.

    I am perfectly capable of reading what you wrote. But by any reasonable definition of the term, America was far more intigrated by 1950 than almost all European countries in 1950. At the very least the USA had integrated people from most of Europe, which is a more diverse place that we sometimes like to think. Plus we had and African population and an hispanic population and a much smaller asian population. If you mean we were more predominantly white, that may be true, but we haven’t been homogeneous in 200 years.

    On the other hand, I wish you would read what I wrote, instead of what you think you read, about Norway. I never said it was a wretched hole. I am sure what you say about its crime rate is true. What I said is that it is soci@list, which is true. And that it is a backwater. A backwater is defined as a place of stagnant backwardness or an isolated peaceful place. Norway is both. Obviously Norway is isolated and peaceful. And with its low fertility rate http://www.indexmundi.com/norway/total_fertility_rate.html
    and soci@list welfare mentality I would argue that it is a stagnant (as opposed to dynamic) place. Norway is not, nor will it ever be in the foreseeable future, a great nation. Its security and its economy will always be at the mercy of other countries in the world. Frankly, Norwegians who wanted to live in a great country moved to America. Norway may be less in decline than some other countries in Europe, but it is never the less part of the general European decline. These are not disparaging remarks. They are just facts. You are a great fan of plain facts. You should be able to live with these without taking offense.

    After claiming that we were “not integrated”, you turn around and admit that we have accepted “great folks from all over”. Then you claim that this is not the cause of our greatness. The cause of our greatness was our shared values.

    First of all, “great folks from all over” is a compound term. We have integrated folks who are “great” and “from all over”. This very admission disproves your other points. Since great people can come “from all over” where they come from is not important. Where they come from is not what makes them “great”. A “great” person can be found anywhere.

    I actually agree with you when you say “our shared values” are what made us great, but I suspect that we are talking about different values. To me, one of the foundational values on which this country’s greatness has been built is what I call the traditional “immigrant spirit”, or its close relative, the “pioneeer spirit”. By this I mean the courage and resourcefulness to leave a familiar environment with little opportunity to go to a strange and rigorous place where opportunities abound, provided you are willing to put in the work to take advantage of them. America has been traditionally such a destination. Because of our unique combination of political freedom and free market economics, people who were stuck in a social and economic quagmire in their home countries could come here and prosper through hard work. You have cited your own ancestors as examples of people who did this, and you are correct.

    But this is still largely true today. People still want to come here to improve their lives and the lives of their families through work.

    And America is still a place where that goal can be reached. I concede that there have been changes in America, but those are not the fault of the immigrants. Rather, some Americans have abandonned the opportunity culture that made us great in favor of European social wefare statism. If the USA becomes a “welfare magnet” to the world, that would be a very bad thing, but the way to deal with that is to restrict the welfare state, not restrict immigration by willing productive workers.

    Maybe other countries “just grew from families” whose shared values made them feel comfortable with one another, but not this one. This country grew strong from adopting members of many different families who were willing to sign on to a set of principles that were not unique to any one family. As Cincinnatus pointed out on another thread those values can be called “classical liberalism” (which is basicly limited government and free enterprise). While I do not expect a Mexican immigrant dish washer to understand all the nuances of “Classical Liberal” economic/political theory, if he understands that a system that rewards hard work and initiative is a good thing, then he has the basics. The details will follow if the system maintanis its integrity.

    It is true that the diversity caused by this policy has caused friction between the diverse cultures that have come here. The United States has never been “comfortable” to live in in that respect. But that discomfort has not held us back from developing into a great nation.

    You say that you “feel no obligation” to invite immigrants into our country. Neither do I, not an obligation to them, anyway. But your statement implies that we “invite them in” as an act of charity as though they bring nothing to the table. You are so wrong about that. Willing productive workers add to this country’s economic and social strength. Don’t think of it as “inviting them”; think of it as “recruiting them”.

    My earlier points about immigration do not attack a straw man. You may not agree with her, but Grace said @166, and maybe elsewhere that we should stop all immigration for years. But even if she had not, my statements are about what our policy should be, not about refuting what others have said.

    Maybe I can tie it all together this way. I used to know a guy who was upset with the way American culture was changing, and he actually talked about moving to Germany where the culture was homogeneous. Frankly, people who are only interested in holding onto what their ancestors built should probably move to a country like Germany or Norway. They can then live out their lives in comfortable soci@list mediocrity. If that guy is replaced by an ambitious Mexican dishwasher, who actually wants to build a better future for himself and his family, then this country will have made a good trade.

  • kerner

    sg@179:

    There is so much to respond to in this comment that it is difficult to know where to begin. I suppose pointing out that Georg Frederick Handel was an immigrant (from Germany to England) is pretty irrelevant, but I just can’t help myself. ;)

    But let’s start with the language you use. Have you noticed that when you talk about American accomplishments you are always speaking in the past tense? You always speak of what we HAVE BUILT, not what we ARE GOING TO BUILD. Your motivation is the fear that someone (or some group) will come along and take away “the good life our ancestors have built”. This is the attitude of a culture in decline. It is also the attitude of most of the industrialized western countries, which are (not coincidently, I believe) cultures in decline.

    I am perfectly capable of reading what you wrote. But by any reasonable definition of the term, America was far more intigrated by 1950 than almost all European countries in 1950. At the very least the USA had integrated people from most of Europe, which is a more diverse place that we sometimes like to think. Plus we had and African population and an hispanic population and a much smaller asian population. If you mean we were more predominantly white, that may be true, but we haven’t been homogeneous in 200 years.

    On the other hand, I wish you would read what I wrote, instead of what you think you read, about Norway. I never said it was a wretched hole. I am sure what you say about its crime rate is true. What I said is that it is soci@list, which is true. And that it is a backwater. A backwater is defined as a place of stagnant backwardness or an isolated peaceful place. Norway is both. Obviously Norway is isolated and peaceful. And with its low fertility rate http://www.indexmundi.com/norway/total_fertility_rate.html
    and soci@list welfare mentality I would argue that it is a stagnant (as opposed to dynamic) place. Norway is not, nor will it ever be in the foreseeable future, a great nation. Its security and its economy will always be at the mercy of other countries in the world. Frankly, Norwegians who wanted to live in a great country moved to America. Norway may be less in decline than some other countries in Europe, but it is never the less part of the general European decline. These are not disparaging remarks. They are just facts. You are a great fan of plain facts. You should be able to live with these without taking offense.

    After claiming that we were “not integrated”, you turn around and admit that we have accepted “great folks from all over”. Then you claim that this is not the cause of our greatness. The cause of our greatness was our shared values.

    First of all, “great folks from all over” is a compound term. We have integrated folks who are “great” and “from all over”. This very admission disproves your other points. Since great people can come “from all over” where they come from is not important. Where they come from is not what makes them “great”. A “great” person can be found anywhere.

    I actually agree with you when you say “our shared values” are what made us great, but I suspect that we are talking about different values. To me, one of the foundational values on which this country’s greatness has been built is what I call the traditional “immigrant spirit”, or its close relative, the “pioneeer spirit”. By this I mean the courage and resourcefulness to leave a familiar environment with little opportunity to go to a strange and rigorous place where opportunities abound, provided you are willing to put in the work to take advantage of them. America has been traditionally such a destination. Because of our unique combination of political freedom and free market economics, people who were stuck in a social and economic quagmire in their home countries could come here and prosper through hard work. You have cited your own ancestors as examples of people who did this, and you are correct.

    But this is still largely true today. People still want to come here to improve their lives and the lives of their families through work.

    And America is still a place where that goal can be reached. I concede that there have been changes in America, but those are not the fault of the immigrants. Rather, some Americans have abandonned the opportunity culture that made us great in favor of European social wefare statism. If the USA becomes a “welfare magnet” to the world, that would be a very bad thing, but the way to deal with that is to restrict the welfare state, not restrict immigration by willing productive workers.

    Maybe other countries “just grew from families” whose shared values made them feel comfortable with one another, but not this one. This country grew strong from adopting members of many different families who were willing to sign on to a set of principles that were not unique to any one family. As Cincinnatus pointed out on another thread those values can be called “classical liberalism” (which is basicly limited government and free enterprise). While I do not expect a Mexican immigrant dish washer to understand all the nuances of “Classical Liberal” economic/political theory, if he understands that a system that rewards hard work and initiative is a good thing, then he has the basics. The details will follow if the system maintanis its integrity.

    It is true that the diversity caused by this policy has caused friction between the diverse cultures that have come here. The United States has never been “comfortable” to live in in that respect. But that discomfort has not held us back from developing into a great nation.

    You say that you “feel no obligation” to invite immigrants into our country. Neither do I, not an obligation to them, anyway. But your statement implies that we “invite them in” as an act of charity as though they bring nothing to the table. You are so wrong about that. Willing productive workers add to this country’s economic and social strength. Don’t think of it as “inviting them”; think of it as “recruiting them”.

    My earlier points about immigration do not attack a straw man. You may not agree with her, but Grace said @166, and maybe elsewhere that we should stop all immigration for years. But even if she had not, my statements are about what our policy should be, not about refuting what others have said.

    Maybe I can tie it all together this way. I used to know a guy who was upset with the way American culture was changing, and he actually talked about moving to Germany where the culture was homogeneous. Frankly, people who are only interested in holding onto what their ancestors built should probably move to a country like Germany or Norway. They can then live out their lives in comfortable soci@list mediocrity. If that guy is replaced by an ambitious Mexican dishwasher, who actually wants to build a better future for himself and his family, then this country will have made a good trade.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But the Japanese policy is a terrible one that has stagnated their economy and society for twenty years.”

    Japan has an extremely high population density, if anything, it would be wise for some of them to leave. I find it amusing that folks think the most densely populated places on earth need immigration from sparsely populated places. Also Japan has very low crime and is a high trust society. Any immigration would diminish those accomplishments and lower the quality of life.

    This is the problem with the liberal lies that get repeated a million times till folks actually think they are true. On any reasonable measure, Japan is doing extremely well. As for their economic slump, for most countries on earth, the current situation in Japan would be an improvement.
    It is a fallen world, there is no utopia.

    “If that guy is replaced by an ambitious Mexican dishwasher, who actually wants to build a better future for himself and his family, then this country will have made a good trade.”

    That is one big if. We know the dropout rates, illegitimacy rates and incarceration rates for these folks’ kids. There is a very high probability that he will make his employer richer in the near term and my kids poorer for generations supporting his illegitimate kids as they go to school, get Medicaid and sit in prison. Your fantasy that these folks will magically transform into high performing people is baseless. We know who these people are. We have kept records on them for years. They are more violent and lower functioning on average than the folks we have. Let them “enrich” their own countries.

    “People still want to come here to improve their lives and the lives of their families through work.”

    No they don’t. They want food stamps, Medicaid and free school for their kids. They are a net drain. They make specific individuals richer and society poorer. It is called value transference. The rich transfer more money to themselves because the poor dishwasher works for less and gets his needs met by the taxpayers to whom he provides no value. The public picks up the tab and the employer pockets the fruits of the guy’s labor. If you are the employer, naturally you want to get more from him than you give him, but such is not honorable. People have been taking advantage of others since time began. This is nothing new. Employers love powerless immigrants that they can take advantage of for their own gain.

    The points about Norway simply make the point that the tiny country is not perfect. Uh, okay, no surprise. However, you just ignore the fact that they are a high trust society, like that is nothing. Sheesh with all the countries that are truly nasty places, and you pick Norway to nitpick. Then you just ignore the violence and corruption of immigrants to this country. It is disgusting. What is with the fault finding with all the good citizens and the fantasies that low functioning people are going to improve this country? It is absurd on its face.

    There seems to be this prevalent magic notion that folks move here and become like the rest of us. They don’t. That is why we need to screen immigrants carefully. It is reasonable and fair both to the immigrants and to our citizens. Ignoring empirical evidence about the performance of folks who have immigrated here is just plain stupid.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But the Japanese policy is a terrible one that has stagnated their economy and society for twenty years.”

    Japan has an extremely high population density, if anything, it would be wise for some of them to leave. I find it amusing that folks think the most densely populated places on earth need immigration from sparsely populated places. Also Japan has very low crime and is a high trust society. Any immigration would diminish those accomplishments and lower the quality of life.

    This is the problem with the liberal lies that get repeated a million times till folks actually think they are true. On any reasonable measure, Japan is doing extremely well. As for their economic slump, for most countries on earth, the current situation in Japan would be an improvement.
    It is a fallen world, there is no utopia.

    “If that guy is replaced by an ambitious Mexican dishwasher, who actually wants to build a better future for himself and his family, then this country will have made a good trade.”

    That is one big if. We know the dropout rates, illegitimacy rates and incarceration rates for these folks’ kids. There is a very high probability that he will make his employer richer in the near term and my kids poorer for generations supporting his illegitimate kids as they go to school, get Medicaid and sit in prison. Your fantasy that these folks will magically transform into high performing people is baseless. We know who these people are. We have kept records on them for years. They are more violent and lower functioning on average than the folks we have. Let them “enrich” their own countries.

    “People still want to come here to improve their lives and the lives of their families through work.”

    No they don’t. They want food stamps, Medicaid and free school for their kids. They are a net drain. They make specific individuals richer and society poorer. It is called value transference. The rich transfer more money to themselves because the poor dishwasher works for less and gets his needs met by the taxpayers to whom he provides no value. The public picks up the tab and the employer pockets the fruits of the guy’s labor. If you are the employer, naturally you want to get more from him than you give him, but such is not honorable. People have been taking advantage of others since time began. This is nothing new. Employers love powerless immigrants that they can take advantage of for their own gain.

    The points about Norway simply make the point that the tiny country is not perfect. Uh, okay, no surprise. However, you just ignore the fact that they are a high trust society, like that is nothing. Sheesh with all the countries that are truly nasty places, and you pick Norway to nitpick. Then you just ignore the violence and corruption of immigrants to this country. It is disgusting. What is with the fault finding with all the good citizens and the fantasies that low functioning people are going to improve this country? It is absurd on its face.

    There seems to be this prevalent magic notion that folks move here and become like the rest of us. They don’t. That is why we need to screen immigrants carefully. It is reasonable and fair both to the immigrants and to our citizens. Ignoring empirical evidence about the performance of folks who have immigrated here is just plain stupid.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Numbers are fine. I like them too. But, you are basically admitting that these race studies are designed and funded, often using public money, to provide evidence for continued discriminatory policies by our government institutions. There is no legitimate purpose for these studies, because there can be no legitimate response to them. It is a leftist game to evaluate people as members of groups, rather than as individuals. We should resist such efforts as being unAmerican and dehumanizing.”

    These statistics are not race studies per se. They are performance measures of students disaggregated by race (Asian, black, white), region (state, school district), class (free/reduced lunch), and ethnicity (hispanic/non hispanic). They are designed to do what you suggest here:

    “I took things a step further by saying that the way to measure the performance of a particular faculty is to measure the improvement in the student body of the school over time. I don’t think this should be a particularly controversial observation, do you?”

    We do that. That is exactly what NAEP does at the district and state level. Individual principals and districts use other similar metrics for their individual schools.

    Like I have said, we all want to do a good job for all students and we want to assess the effectiveness of the programs. However, the performance differentials arising from nature, do not allow a fair assessment to be made without disaggregating the data.

    People like the idea of objective assessment in theory. They just don’t like what the assessment reveals. The liberal equality meme has infected our thinking and we want, want, want what we want, but nature ain’t giving it up. So, we spend money and blame teachers and one another… Yada, yada. And the laws of nature just keep right on going not budging one bit. We are so enamored of our human accomplishments that we vainly think we can do anything. We can make men and women functionally the same. Except we can’t. We just destroy families and let kids grow up fatherless. We can make all groups perform similarly. Except we can’t. We can just create a corrupt expensive low performing education bureaucracy. Magic thinking gets you nowhere. You have to face reality and deal with it. There is no utopia.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Numbers are fine. I like them too. But, you are basically admitting that these race studies are designed and funded, often using public money, to provide evidence for continued discriminatory policies by our government institutions. There is no legitimate purpose for these studies, because there can be no legitimate response to them. It is a leftist game to evaluate people as members of groups, rather than as individuals. We should resist such efforts as being unAmerican and dehumanizing.”

    These statistics are not race studies per se. They are performance measures of students disaggregated by race (Asian, black, white), region (state, school district), class (free/reduced lunch), and ethnicity (hispanic/non hispanic). They are designed to do what you suggest here:

    “I took things a step further by saying that the way to measure the performance of a particular faculty is to measure the improvement in the student body of the school over time. I don’t think this should be a particularly controversial observation, do you?”

    We do that. That is exactly what NAEP does at the district and state level. Individual principals and districts use other similar metrics for their individual schools.

    Like I have said, we all want to do a good job for all students and we want to assess the effectiveness of the programs. However, the performance differentials arising from nature, do not allow a fair assessment to be made without disaggregating the data.

    People like the idea of objective assessment in theory. They just don’t like what the assessment reveals. The liberal equality meme has infected our thinking and we want, want, want what we want, but nature ain’t giving it up. So, we spend money and blame teachers and one another… Yada, yada. And the laws of nature just keep right on going not budging one bit. We are so enamored of our human accomplishments that we vainly think we can do anything. We can make men and women functionally the same. Except we can’t. We just destroy families and let kids grow up fatherless. We can make all groups perform similarly. Except we can’t. We can just create a corrupt expensive low performing education bureaucracy. Magic thinking gets you nowhere. You have to face reality and deal with it. There is no utopia.

  • DonS

    sg @ 194: Just to clarify — I am no liberal. And I do not purvey “liberal lies”. I fight them with every fiber of my being, which is why I abhor the propensity of the U.S. to endless collect race data. In the census we just took, the questions were fixated on race, to the exclusion of many other more interesting things, such as religion, which used to be considered an important thing to inquire about. The tendency of the left to insist on dividing and identifying us along racial lines, rather than as individuals, is destroying this country. The problem is so bad that you had the majority leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, declaring that he could see no reason why anyone of Latino extraction would ever vote Republican! We have a Congressional Black Caucus (why????), and, worse yet, if you are a newly elected Republican black you cannot, apparently, be a member because you don’t think the right way. You may “like numbers”, but you are playing in the devil’s sandbox by obsessing over racial characteristics rather than individual merit.

    The Japanese policy I was referring to was not their immigration policy. That’s not really an issue, as only about 1.6% of their population is non-Japanese. It is simply their insidious policy of discrimination against non-Japanese people and businesses, whether they are resident or not, to which I referred. American businesses attempting to gain a foothold in the Japanese economy face very high barriers and discriminatory costs, almost insurmountable unless they partner with a local company. As a result, most of my clients who do business internationally no longer prioritize Japan as a market. It is indisputable that the Japanese economy has stagnated for the past twenty years, and this discriminatory policy is a large reason why.

    I think the rest of your points were directed to Kerner.

  • DonS

    sg @ 194: Just to clarify — I am no liberal. And I do not purvey “liberal lies”. I fight them with every fiber of my being, which is why I abhor the propensity of the U.S. to endless collect race data. In the census we just took, the questions were fixated on race, to the exclusion of many other more interesting things, such as religion, which used to be considered an important thing to inquire about. The tendency of the left to insist on dividing and identifying us along racial lines, rather than as individuals, is destroying this country. The problem is so bad that you had the majority leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, declaring that he could see no reason why anyone of Latino extraction would ever vote Republican! We have a Congressional Black Caucus (why????), and, worse yet, if you are a newly elected Republican black you cannot, apparently, be a member because you don’t think the right way. You may “like numbers”, but you are playing in the devil’s sandbox by obsessing over racial characteristics rather than individual merit.

    The Japanese policy I was referring to was not their immigration policy. That’s not really an issue, as only about 1.6% of their population is non-Japanese. It is simply their insidious policy of discrimination against non-Japanese people and businesses, whether they are resident or not, to which I referred. American businesses attempting to gain a foothold in the Japanese economy face very high barriers and discriminatory costs, almost insurmountable unless they partner with a local company. As a result, most of my clients who do business internationally no longer prioritize Japan as a market. It is indisputable that the Japanese economy has stagnated for the past twenty years, and this discriminatory policy is a large reason why.

    I think the rest of your points were directed to Kerner.

  • Grace

    DonS – 190 “I think we AGREE on that, don’t we? So why do you keep arguing with me????? Stop it!!

    DonS – 191 “The statement you are quoting was made in connection with my views related to LEGAL immigration. That is a totally different animal, don’t you think?

    DonS – 192 “But, on the 4th of July, you celebrate and proudly fly the American flag, not the Italian, French, or Mexican one. You love your country, and the values it upholds. Do you have a problem with this?”

    Don – the above three comments/questions – assuming I will agree, after you twisted what was posted isn’t correct. Kids do this, but seldom do adults try and use the ASSUME approach for agreement or approval. – — “So why do you keep arguing with me????? Stop it!!, Do you have a problem with this?” – - ….. Lol,

  • Grace

    DonS – 190 “I think we AGREE on that, don’t we? So why do you keep arguing with me????? Stop it!!

    DonS – 191 “The statement you are quoting was made in connection with my views related to LEGAL immigration. That is a totally different animal, don’t you think?

    DonS – 192 “But, on the 4th of July, you celebrate and proudly fly the American flag, not the Italian, French, or Mexican one. You love your country, and the values it upholds. Do you have a problem with this?”

    Don – the above three comments/questions – assuming I will agree, after you twisted what was posted isn’t correct. Kids do this, but seldom do adults try and use the ASSUME approach for agreement or approval. – — “So why do you keep arguing with me????? Stop it!!, Do you have a problem with this?” – - ….. Lol,

  • DonS

    sg @ 19Disaggregation of the data along racial lines in completely unnecessary for the purpose of evaluating the progress of the student body of a school. Moreover, it leads to incorrect inferences, because of the failure to properly filter out non-racial factors and because you are relying on people to self-identify their race. Many opt out (I never indicate my race on any form I complete, and I instruct my children to do the same — I refuse to play the race game), and many others are of mixed race, and simply choose one to report. And each generation, we homogenize further because of interracial relationships, making the data even more worthless.

    And I still don’t see what you think you are getting by analyzing racial data. Sure, you can make the argument that no matter how much you spend, you cannot equalize results, because people vary in their genetic abilities. But you can make that argument without the race data, because it is also true in a racially homogeneous group. Individuals have different gifts and abilities. Fact. They also are raised differently, receiving variant educations, both in school and at home, which affects their ultimate academic performance. Race-based data will not assist those arguments further.

    No one is arguing about utopia. But we will have a better society, closer to the objectives and vision of our founders, when we treat people as individuals than when we treat them merely as members of different racial groups.

  • DonS

    sg @ 19Disaggregation of the data along racial lines in completely unnecessary for the purpose of evaluating the progress of the student body of a school. Moreover, it leads to incorrect inferences, because of the failure to properly filter out non-racial factors and because you are relying on people to self-identify their race. Many opt out (I never indicate my race on any form I complete, and I instruct my children to do the same — I refuse to play the race game), and many others are of mixed race, and simply choose one to report. And each generation, we homogenize further because of interracial relationships, making the data even more worthless.

    And I still don’t see what you think you are getting by analyzing racial data. Sure, you can make the argument that no matter how much you spend, you cannot equalize results, because people vary in their genetic abilities. But you can make that argument without the race data, because it is also true in a racially homogeneous group. Individuals have different gifts and abilities. Fact. They also are raised differently, receiving variant educations, both in school and at home, which affects their ultimate academic performance. Race-based data will not assist those arguments further.

    No one is arguing about utopia. But we will have a better society, closer to the objectives and vision of our founders, when we treat people as individuals than when we treat them merely as members of different racial groups.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 197: I don’t understand your post at all. My post was an attempt to clarify my prior posts, because it seemed to me that you were completely misunderstanding what I was saying, and my sense is that, if you understood my point, you would agree with it. In response, you quote my comments back to me and then make some nonsensical statement about kids. So, forget it.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 197: I don’t understand your post at all. My post was an attempt to clarify my prior posts, because it seemed to me that you were completely misunderstanding what I was saying, and my sense is that, if you understood my point, you would agree with it. In response, you quote my comments back to me and then make some nonsensical statement about kids. So, forget it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The problem is so bad that you had the majority leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, declaring that he could see no reason why anyone of Latino extraction would ever vote Republican! We have a Congressional Black Caucus (why????)”

    Because the other races are obsessed with race. They are loyal to their own. We may accept them, but they don’t accept us. Humans are hierarchal and tribal by nature. The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it. This why I say these groups do not share our values of merit based reward. They have different values. Not every one to a person, but the vast majority. People are not all culturally the same.

    I love your honest appraisal of the Japanese. The joke is that the religion in Japan is ‘being Japanese’. Now apply your understanding of the Japanese to Mexicans, Arabs, etc. and you will have a pretty clear picture of how most other cultures work, just with more problems and less efficiency. They put the interests of their own families, towns, and co ethnics ahead of some strange proposition nation of diverse religions and people. Again, not every one to a person, but in general for sure.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The problem is so bad that you had the majority leader in the Senate, Harry Reid, declaring that he could see no reason why anyone of Latino extraction would ever vote Republican! We have a Congressional Black Caucus (why????)”

    Because the other races are obsessed with race. They are loyal to their own. We may accept them, but they don’t accept us. Humans are hierarchal and tribal by nature. The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it. This why I say these groups do not share our values of merit based reward. They have different values. Not every one to a person, but the vast majority. People are not all culturally the same.

    I love your honest appraisal of the Japanese. The joke is that the religion in Japan is ‘being Japanese’. Now apply your understanding of the Japanese to Mexicans, Arabs, etc. and you will have a pretty clear picture of how most other cultures work, just with more problems and less efficiency. They put the interests of their own families, towns, and co ethnics ahead of some strange proposition nation of diverse religions and people. Again, not every one to a person, but in general for sure.

  • Grace

    DonS – 196

    “You may “like numbers”, but you are playing in the devil’s sandbox by obsessing over racial characteristics rather than individual merit.”

    “Racial characteristics” are part of who people are. Denying racial characteristics is to close your eyes, pretending what is right in front of your face isn’t there. Listening to others say, ‘I don’t see a persons skin color’ is probably one of the most ignorant comments – Ethnicity isn’t going away, it’s here to stay. The LORD talked about different groups of people, they were from different tribes, etc.

    The people who are most annoyed about ‘racial characteristics’ or why it should be an issue of discussion are, for the most part overly sensitive. Drawing more attention to it, if it bothers you, makes one wonder what your problem is with racial differences, they EXIST, if they didn’t we wouldn’t be discussing it.

  • Grace

    DonS – 196

    “You may “like numbers”, but you are playing in the devil’s sandbox by obsessing over racial characteristics rather than individual merit.”

    “Racial characteristics” are part of who people are. Denying racial characteristics is to close your eyes, pretending what is right in front of your face isn’t there. Listening to others say, ‘I don’t see a persons skin color’ is probably one of the most ignorant comments – Ethnicity isn’t going away, it’s here to stay. The LORD talked about different groups of people, they were from different tribes, etc.

    The people who are most annoyed about ‘racial characteristics’ or why it should be an issue of discussion are, for the most part overly sensitive. Drawing more attention to it, if it bothers you, makes one wonder what your problem is with racial differences, they EXIST, if they didn’t we wouldn’t be discussing it.

  • Grace

    DonS – 199

    “I don’t understand your post at all. My post was an attempt to clarify my prior posts, because it seemed to me that you were completely misunderstanding what I was saying, and my sense is that, if you understood my point, you would agree with it. In response, you quote my comments back to me and then make some nonsensical statement about kids. So, forget it.”

    Don – the old “if you understood my point, you would agree with it” – there are women who use this ploy when they demand someone agree. Understanding what you wrote is not the problem, the part you have trouble with is; I don’t agree with you, do you understand what I just wrote?

    Then going off to pout with “So, forget it” – LOL

  • Grace

    DonS – 199

    “I don’t understand your post at all. My post was an attempt to clarify my prior posts, because it seemed to me that you were completely misunderstanding what I was saying, and my sense is that, if you understood my point, you would agree with it. In response, you quote my comments back to me and then make some nonsensical statement about kids. So, forget it.”

    Don – the old “if you understood my point, you would agree with it” – there are women who use this ploy when they demand someone agree. Understanding what you wrote is not the problem, the part you have trouble with is; I don’t agree with you, do you understand what I just wrote?

    Then going off to pout with “So, forget it” – LOL

  • DonS

    sg @ 200: “Because the other races are obsessed with race.”

    Oh, OK, so we should be the same. White liberals drive and create this attitude by constantly harping on how whites continually oppress and keep down racial minorities. They do it for the crass purpose of keeping power and pocketing votes. If we were naturally so “tribal”, we wouldn’t have the interracial relationships that we have today. Look around you, for goodness sake. Engage people of other races. They aren’t so different. No, we shouldn’t ignore racial origin or various national cultures, but the idea that we are all going to be our own separate insular racial cultures is abhorrent. Sure, that’s what the left wants. They win by racial division. They perpetuate and exploit it. But we don’t have to play their game. People are people. Treat them as equals, and you will find the racial distinctions melt away.

  • DonS

    sg @ 200: “Because the other races are obsessed with race.”

    Oh, OK, so we should be the same. White liberals drive and create this attitude by constantly harping on how whites continually oppress and keep down racial minorities. They do it for the crass purpose of keeping power and pocketing votes. If we were naturally so “tribal”, we wouldn’t have the interracial relationships that we have today. Look around you, for goodness sake. Engage people of other races. They aren’t so different. No, we shouldn’t ignore racial origin or various national cultures, but the idea that we are all going to be our own separate insular racial cultures is abhorrent. Sure, that’s what the left wants. They win by racial division. They perpetuate and exploit it. But we don’t have to play their game. People are people. Treat them as equals, and you will find the racial distinctions melt away.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 202: Sigh. When you re-stated what you thought I said, you revealed that you did not at all understand what I said. And you refuse to admit it.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 202: Sigh. When you re-stated what you thought I said, you revealed that you did not at all understand what I said. And you refuse to admit it.

  • Grace

    sg – 200

    “Because the other races are obsessed with race. They are loyal to their own. We may accept them, but they don’t accept us. Humans are hierarchal and tribal by nature. The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it. This why I say these groups do not share our values of merit based reward. They have different values. Not every one to a person, but the vast majority. People are not all culturally the same.”

    SG, you are correct in your appraisal. Where we live it is most OBVIOUS – three groups fall into this category – Asians, middle eastern, and south of the border – all have difficulty with the American people. They stay within their own ethnic groups, they don’t mingle, nor do they accept others hand of friendship. There is a constant undertone of envy, and resentment.

    Another interesting point. We live a wonderful community, there are many groups represented. Guess what? – when a national holiday comes around almost NO ONE FLIES the FLAG of the United States, EXCEPT those of us who were born here. Those who do fly, (born abroad) the flag are Swiss and New Zealand.

  • Grace

    sg – 200

    “Because the other races are obsessed with race. They are loyal to their own. We may accept them, but they don’t accept us. Humans are hierarchal and tribal by nature. The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it. This why I say these groups do not share our values of merit based reward. They have different values. Not every one to a person, but the vast majority. People are not all culturally the same.”

    SG, you are correct in your appraisal. Where we live it is most OBVIOUS – three groups fall into this category – Asians, middle eastern, and south of the border – all have difficulty with the American people. They stay within their own ethnic groups, they don’t mingle, nor do they accept others hand of friendship. There is a constant undertone of envy, and resentment.

    Another interesting point. We live a wonderful community, there are many groups represented. Guess what? – when a national holiday comes around almost NO ONE FLIES the FLAG of the United States, EXCEPT those of us who were born here. Those who do fly, (born abroad) the flag are Swiss and New Zealand.

  • DonS

    SG and Grace: At least I think we have reached the issue. SG @ 200, I missed this previously: “The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it.”

    Where do you get that this is the “liberal meme”? I don’t think so. It is the liberals who continually exploit the differences between races, and use that exploitation to drive a wedge between minorities and whites, for the purpose of ensuring votes. Celebrate multi-culturalism, they cry! It is conservatives who argue that people are people, and that the conservative ideals on which this country were founded are best for all of us.

    And Grace, I know many people who immigrated here who proudly fly the American flag. Even more importantly, as you yourself noted: “when a national holiday comes around almost NO ONE FLIES the FLAG of the United States, EXCEPT those of us who were born here.” Guess what? The children of all of those first-generation immigrants who you say don’t fly the American flag were born here! Our focus should be on assimilation, not tribalism.

  • DonS

    SG and Grace: At least I think we have reached the issue. SG @ 200, I missed this previously: “The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it.”

    Where do you get that this is the “liberal meme”? I don’t think so. It is the liberals who continually exploit the differences between races, and use that exploitation to drive a wedge between minorities and whites, for the purpose of ensuring votes. Celebrate multi-culturalism, they cry! It is conservatives who argue that people are people, and that the conservative ideals on which this country were founded are best for all of us.

    And Grace, I know many people who immigrated here who proudly fly the American flag. Even more importantly, as you yourself noted: “when a national holiday comes around almost NO ONE FLIES the FLAG of the United States, EXCEPT those of us who were born here.” Guess what? The children of all of those first-generation immigrants who you say don’t fly the American flag were born here! Our focus should be on assimilation, not tribalism.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    We can’t make people adopt our cultural values.

    The whole thing reminds me of the story of the Little Red Hen who sows, tends, reaps, threshes, grinds and bakes while others do something else. When the bread is baked everyone feels they should have a share, because well, there is bread here and they are hungry. So, it’s only fair. Except it’s not.

    Life is a competition.

    Everyone knows it and they want rules in their favor.

    The producers want to keep what they earn. The consumers want special deals to get a share of what is produced.

    “We live a wonderful community, there are many groups represented. Guess what? – when a national holiday comes around almost NO ONE FLIES the FLAG of the United States, EXCEPT those of us who were born here. Those who do fly, (born abroad) the flag are Swiss and New Zealand.”

    These are the kinds of experiences no one wants to hear about. You get vilified for telling the truth. People make all kinds of excuses about how what you experience is rare, yada yada, but it isn’t rare. We just keep hearing the lies repeated so much that we figure despite what we see with our own eyes in our daily lives, and what is in the data doesn’t matter or is somehow due to something we have done, blah blah blah. We can borrow and spend our way to prosperity, etc. It is all not true. We can see it is not true, but the liberal memes are so embedded and people just so want, want, want it, because they were raised on it and they can’t face that it ain’t gonna happen and we need a new strategy that is based in reality.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    We can’t make people adopt our cultural values.

    The whole thing reminds me of the story of the Little Red Hen who sows, tends, reaps, threshes, grinds and bakes while others do something else. When the bread is baked everyone feels they should have a share, because well, there is bread here and they are hungry. So, it’s only fair. Except it’s not.

    Life is a competition.

    Everyone knows it and they want rules in their favor.

    The producers want to keep what they earn. The consumers want special deals to get a share of what is produced.

    “We live a wonderful community, there are many groups represented. Guess what? – when a national holiday comes around almost NO ONE FLIES the FLAG of the United States, EXCEPT those of us who were born here. Those who do fly, (born abroad) the flag are Swiss and New Zealand.”

    These are the kinds of experiences no one wants to hear about. You get vilified for telling the truth. People make all kinds of excuses about how what you experience is rare, yada yada, but it isn’t rare. We just keep hearing the lies repeated so much that we figure despite what we see with our own eyes in our daily lives, and what is in the data doesn’t matter or is somehow due to something we have done, blah blah blah. We can borrow and spend our way to prosperity, etc. It is all not true. We can see it is not true, but the liberal memes are so embedded and people just so want, want, want it, because they were raised on it and they can’t face that it ain’t gonna happen and we need a new strategy that is based in reality.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Our focus should be on assimilation, not tribalism.”

    Yeah, I know, but they ain’t buying. They don’t share our values. That is the point.

    When my German and Norwegian relatives moved here, they gave their kids English names. They wanted to assimilate. They shared our values. They were confident they could compete. That is not what we have now. Now we have illegals who accept low wages because with all the free social services it works out to a better deal than they get at home.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Our focus should be on assimilation, not tribalism.”

    Yeah, I know, but they ain’t buying. They don’t share our values. That is the point.

    When my German and Norwegian relatives moved here, they gave their kids English names. They wanted to assimilate. They shared our values. They were confident they could compete. That is not what we have now. Now we have illegals who accept low wages because with all the free social services it works out to a better deal than they get at home.

  • Grace

    DonS

    No one can change the attitudes which the vast majority hold, who have come to this country for no other reason than to make money, hunker down, spend holidays in their country of origin, and mingle with their own ethnic group, This doesn’t apply to all, but the vast majority if they have the funds to return to their native land on holiday.

    Don: “The children of all of those first-generation immigrants who you say don’t fly the American flag were born here! Our focus should be on assimilation, not tribalism.”

    Regarding the flag; Yes some do, and many do not.

    You cannot assimilate anyone who will not accept friendship from those who are not from their part of the world. You can continue to spout assimilation all you like, but it falls empty in the real world. Those of us who watch and listen have heard it all before, but there is no participation from those who are clearly of different ethnic backgrounds.

    For many of these groups, they have made their separation obvious. As for those south of the border who are legal, they protect, and continue to fight for the rights of those who have broken our laws….. this in itself, has made the gap wider. They know we don’t trust anyone who has blatantly defended law breakers, lied and cheated to obtain free health, education, etc.

    The divide widens, especially when California faces such a financial crisis, which those from south of the border claim no part of, nor do will they own up to the fact they have soaked our tax funds, both in welfare, health, education, drug traffic, and prison cost. And yes it costs money to build prisons to house the huge group from the south who inhabit those walls.

  • Grace

    DonS

    No one can change the attitudes which the vast majority hold, who have come to this country for no other reason than to make money, hunker down, spend holidays in their country of origin, and mingle with their own ethnic group, This doesn’t apply to all, but the vast majority if they have the funds to return to their native land on holiday.

    Don: “The children of all of those first-generation immigrants who you say don’t fly the American flag were born here! Our focus should be on assimilation, not tribalism.”

    Regarding the flag; Yes some do, and many do not.

    You cannot assimilate anyone who will not accept friendship from those who are not from their part of the world. You can continue to spout assimilation all you like, but it falls empty in the real world. Those of us who watch and listen have heard it all before, but there is no participation from those who are clearly of different ethnic backgrounds.

    For many of these groups, they have made their separation obvious. As for those south of the border who are legal, they protect, and continue to fight for the rights of those who have broken our laws….. this in itself, has made the gap wider. They know we don’t trust anyone who has blatantly defended law breakers, lied and cheated to obtain free health, education, etc.

    The divide widens, especially when California faces such a financial crisis, which those from south of the border claim no part of, nor do will they own up to the fact they have soaked our tax funds, both in welfare, health, education, drug traffic, and prison cost. And yes it costs money to build prisons to house the huge group from the south who inhabit those walls.

  • DonS

    SG: “We can’t make people adopt our cultural values. ”

    No, we can’t. And if our tack is to tell them that, because of their race, they are inferior, they certainly won’t.

    “Yeah, I know, but they ain’t buying. They don’t share our values. That is the point.”

    But the problem is, we’re not selling. Why should they buy? Are we really educating our immigrants that the American dream of opportunity is also for them? They don’t share over values, in part, because we’re constantly reminding them that they’re different, and cannot have our values.

    It’s our choice. We as conservatives can show our new neighbors, who are here to stay whether we like it or not, that there is a better way, and that the American dream of individual liberty and opportunity is available to them if they work for it. Or, we can just sit around, let the left continue to exploit and oppress them in exchange for a few scraps from the public benefit trough, and complain about how life was so much better when it was just us whites.

    Whatever.

  • DonS

    SG: “We can’t make people adopt our cultural values. ”

    No, we can’t. And if our tack is to tell them that, because of their race, they are inferior, they certainly won’t.

    “Yeah, I know, but they ain’t buying. They don’t share our values. That is the point.”

    But the problem is, we’re not selling. Why should they buy? Are we really educating our immigrants that the American dream of opportunity is also for them? They don’t share over values, in part, because we’re constantly reminding them that they’re different, and cannot have our values.

    It’s our choice. We as conservatives can show our new neighbors, who are here to stay whether we like it or not, that there is a better way, and that the American dream of individual liberty and opportunity is available to them if they work for it. Or, we can just sit around, let the left continue to exploit and oppress them in exchange for a few scraps from the public benefit trough, and complain about how life was so much better when it was just us whites.

    Whatever.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “At least I think we have reached the issue. SG @ 200, I missed this previously: “The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it.”

    “Where do you get that this is the “liberal meme”? I don’t think so. It is the liberals who continually exploit the differences between races, and use that exploitation to drive a wedge between minorities and whites, for the purpose of ensuring votes.”

    Yeah, I can see now how it wasn’t clear. The liberal meme is to tell middle class taxpayers that all groups with opportunity, education etc. eventually will perform like the rest of the folks in American society. Then they turn around to the minorities and blame their lower performance on oppression, bad schools, no opportunity, big business, global warming(kidding, but they would if they could). It doesn’t matter what, it is just a way to make excuses and promise more government freebies. The problem is that the highest achieving groups are Asians who are a small minority, so the oppression, IQ test bias, bad school excuses don’t work if you mention them, so they don’t mention them. Liberals try to use the race angle to get the Asians to vote with them and blame whites, especially middle/lower class whites (as if they could oppress anyone) for the low achievement among other groups. I only bring up the data to point out that it is not the fault of schools when folks don’t achieve. Recently the NY Times noted as much.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “At least I think we have reached the issue. SG @ 200, I missed this previously: “The liberal meme is to deny this. Of course this doesn’t sell to other groups. We are the only ones falling for it.”

    “Where do you get that this is the “liberal meme”? I don’t think so. It is the liberals who continually exploit the differences between races, and use that exploitation to drive a wedge between minorities and whites, for the purpose of ensuring votes.”

    Yeah, I can see now how it wasn’t clear. The liberal meme is to tell middle class taxpayers that all groups with opportunity, education etc. eventually will perform like the rest of the folks in American society. Then they turn around to the minorities and blame their lower performance on oppression, bad schools, no opportunity, big business, global warming(kidding, but they would if they could). It doesn’t matter what, it is just a way to make excuses and promise more government freebies. The problem is that the highest achieving groups are Asians who are a small minority, so the oppression, IQ test bias, bad school excuses don’t work if you mention them, so they don’t mention them. Liberals try to use the race angle to get the Asians to vote with them and blame whites, especially middle/lower class whites (as if they could oppress anyone) for the low achievement among other groups. I only bring up the data to point out that it is not the fault of schools when folks don’t achieve. Recently the NY Times noted as much.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/education/09gap.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

  • Grace

    Well DonS – after reading most of your posts, it is obvious to me that you don’t hold illegal aliens responsible for their unlawful behavior, but instead give them a free pass – listing a volume of excuses.

    Further more, you consistently blame white Americans for their problem. These people aren’t guests in this country, they are law breakers – they show little to zero respect for laws or those who have worked, and defended the U.S. —- and then there is you, who continue to show no conscience when defending them.

    –YOU WROTE: “It’s our choice. We as conservatives can show our new neighbors, who are here to stay whether we like it or not, that there is a better way, and that the American dream of individual liberty and opportunity is available to them if they work for it.”

    They aren’t neighbors Don, they are unlawful people who couldn’t care less about the US.

    –YOU WROTE: “Or, we can just sit around, let the left continue to exploit and oppress them in exchange for a few scraps from the public benefit trough, and complain about how life was so much better when it was just us whites.”

    Billions of dollars every year and you call that “scraps from the public benefit trough” ? how insulting to those of us who have paid the bills – As you post these ungrateful words, it all becomes more obvious than you might realize Don. You aren’t fooling anyone, certainly not me after this last post.

    You aren’t going to change the minds of the citizens in California, Texas, Arizona … as the economy has worsened, the majority of those who didn’t pay attention, are well aware of the cost incurred by those who have no right to tax dollars.

    Defending law breakers, calling them “new neighbors” ? – how Christian is that Don? ….. did Jesus tell anyone to go and take someone else’s money, or to lie and steal? Then you defend the behavior!

    You are going to find that this problem is only going to escalate IF taxes go up, or if the economy gets worse.

    “scraps from the public benefit trough”

    That takes nerve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Grace

    Well DonS – after reading most of your posts, it is obvious to me that you don’t hold illegal aliens responsible for their unlawful behavior, but instead give them a free pass – listing a volume of excuses.

    Further more, you consistently blame white Americans for their problem. These people aren’t guests in this country, they are law breakers – they show little to zero respect for laws or those who have worked, and defended the U.S. —- and then there is you, who continue to show no conscience when defending them.

    –YOU WROTE: “It’s our choice. We as conservatives can show our new neighbors, who are here to stay whether we like it or not, that there is a better way, and that the American dream of individual liberty and opportunity is available to them if they work for it.”

    They aren’t neighbors Don, they are unlawful people who couldn’t care less about the US.

    –YOU WROTE: “Or, we can just sit around, let the left continue to exploit and oppress them in exchange for a few scraps from the public benefit trough, and complain about how life was so much better when it was just us whites.”

    Billions of dollars every year and you call that “scraps from the public benefit trough” ? how insulting to those of us who have paid the bills – As you post these ungrateful words, it all becomes more obvious than you might realize Don. You aren’t fooling anyone, certainly not me after this last post.

    You aren’t going to change the minds of the citizens in California, Texas, Arizona … as the economy has worsened, the majority of those who didn’t pay attention, are well aware of the cost incurred by those who have no right to tax dollars.

    Defending law breakers, calling them “new neighbors” ? – how Christian is that Don? ….. did Jesus tell anyone to go and take someone else’s money, or to lie and steal? Then you defend the behavior!

    You are going to find that this problem is only going to escalate IF taxes go up, or if the economy gets worse.

    “scraps from the public benefit trough”

    That takes nerve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • DonS

    Grace @ 212: Well, I see the problem. Where did you ever get the idea, if you truly read my posts, that I was talking about ILLEGAL aliens? Go back and read my exchange with Kerner, please. Good grief.

    I am talking about legal residents and citizens only.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 212: Well, I see the problem. Where did you ever get the idea, if you truly read my posts, that I was talking about ILLEGAL aliens? Go back and read my exchange with Kerner, please. Good grief.

    I am talking about legal residents and citizens only.

  • Grace

    Don – sure you are, yep thats it.

  • Grace

    Don – sure you are, yep thats it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And if our tack is to tell them that, because of their race, they are inferior, they certainly won’t.”

    But no one is telling them that, in fact just the opposite. Telling them that they can achieve doesn’t make it happen.

    “we’re not selling. Why should they buy? Are we really educating our immigrants that the American dream of opportunity is also for them? They don’t share over values, in part, because we’re constantly reminding them that they’re different, and cannot have our values.”

    Not really. The anyone-can-do-it cheerleading is pretty well alive. It just doesn’t work. I will give you that the multiculti meme is a problem, but it doesn’t hold back Asians from achieving, so while it doesn’t promote unity, it also isn’t a direct cause of things like low school performance.

    “It’s our choice. We as conservatives can show our new neighbors, who are here to stay whether we like it or not, that there is a better way, and that the American dream of individual liberty and opportunity is available to them if they work for it. Or, we can just sit around, let the left continue to exploit and oppress them in exchange for a few scraps from the public benefit trough, and complain about how life was so much better when it was just us whites.”

    It is our choice to decide whether we want to import more problems. It is not our choice to fix their problems. We are not that powerful. The power of positive thinking doesn’t make kids do better in school. It doesn’t reduce illegitimacy and welfare dependence or engender a work ethic or reduce crime etc. I would love for all groups to achieve more, but when they don’t it’s not our fault and we can’t fix it. What if they don’t want to work for it? What if they prefer gangs to education? Then what?

    If I ignored the data and agreed with everything you say, not one thing would change. We don’t create our own reality. It is a liberal lie. Nature goes right on without our permission. We can identify and respond with effective strategies like stopping illegal immigration, or we can just pretend everything will get better even though we have tried it all before and it hasn’t worked. Our debt is sky high, our deficits are growing and we have trillions in unfunded liabilities with nothing but a shrinking productive class and a growing dependent class on the horizon. It is not going to all work out with positive thinking.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And if our tack is to tell them that, because of their race, they are inferior, they certainly won’t.”

    But no one is telling them that, in fact just the opposite. Telling them that they can achieve doesn’t make it happen.

    “we’re not selling. Why should they buy? Are we really educating our immigrants that the American dream of opportunity is also for them? They don’t share over values, in part, because we’re constantly reminding them that they’re different, and cannot have our values.”

    Not really. The anyone-can-do-it cheerleading is pretty well alive. It just doesn’t work. I will give you that the multiculti meme is a problem, but it doesn’t hold back Asians from achieving, so while it doesn’t promote unity, it also isn’t a direct cause of things like low school performance.

    “It’s our choice. We as conservatives can show our new neighbors, who are here to stay whether we like it or not, that there is a better way, and that the American dream of individual liberty and opportunity is available to them if they work for it. Or, we can just sit around, let the left continue to exploit and oppress them in exchange for a few scraps from the public benefit trough, and complain about how life was so much better when it was just us whites.”

    It is our choice to decide whether we want to import more problems. It is not our choice to fix their problems. We are not that powerful. The power of positive thinking doesn’t make kids do better in school. It doesn’t reduce illegitimacy and welfare dependence or engender a work ethic or reduce crime etc. I would love for all groups to achieve more, but when they don’t it’s not our fault and we can’t fix it. What if they don’t want to work for it? What if they prefer gangs to education? Then what?

    If I ignored the data and agreed with everything you say, not one thing would change. We don’t create our own reality. It is a liberal lie. Nature goes right on without our permission. We can identify and respond with effective strategies like stopping illegal immigration, or we can just pretend everything will get better even though we have tried it all before and it hasn’t worked. Our debt is sky high, our deficits are growing and we have trillions in unfunded liabilities with nothing but a shrinking productive class and a growing dependent class on the horizon. It is not going to all work out with positive thinking.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 214: Your comment is an insult. And puts the lie to your statement that you went back and read my posts. Look @ posts 56, 85, 86, and 94 ON THIS THREAD! And then come back and apologize for accusing me of lying.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 214: Your comment is an insult. And puts the lie to your statement that you went back and read my posts. Look @ posts 56, 85, 86, and 94 ON THIS THREAD! And then come back and apologize for accusing me of lying.

  • kerner

    Don S @210:

    Frustrating, isn’t it. Look ladies, I have no problem with most hispanics I know. Particularly those who are 2nd generation or more. Maybe it’s because I live ion Wisconsin where they are further from the border, but when I lived in California, which I admit was 30 years ago, the Mexican Americans I worked with identified more with America than they did with Mexico. Maybe it’s because I know so many military people. The hispanics in the US military are fiercely patriotic, and they DO fly the American Flag. I even know hispanics who got Amnesty in 1986. Great people who think Reagan was the best president ever. Milwaukee DOES have a part of town that is heavily hispanic, but I’m not afraid to go there. I once lost my checkbook in a restaurant (everybody working there was “south of the border”) there and didn’t discover the loss for 2 days. When I telephoned the place, they had it in the office. I went to pick it up and nothing was missing. These people you are so scared of did me a good turn and they didn’t even know me.

    As for Grace’s comment @189, ROFL. Do you really think you have preserved your “European heritage”? I don’t know any Europeans who think you have. As far as Europeans are concerned, we Americans all fell into that beige melting pot centuries ago. And our culture is not all that much like theirs anymore. Shoot, just try telling a CANADIAN that you think you have a common culture with him and see what you get back. I know I have a lot more in common with second or third generation Hispanic Americans (at least the ones from around here) than I do with white Canadians. Frankly, Southern White people have more in common culturally (food, religion, priorities) with Southern Black people than either one of them have in common with me.

    Anyway, Don is right, with you two, hostility from hispanics is a self fulfilling prophesy. A major reason some of them aren’t buying is that too many people like you aren’t selling.

  • kerner

    Don S @210:

    Frustrating, isn’t it. Look ladies, I have no problem with most hispanics I know. Particularly those who are 2nd generation or more. Maybe it’s because I live ion Wisconsin where they are further from the border, but when I lived in California, which I admit was 30 years ago, the Mexican Americans I worked with identified more with America than they did with Mexico. Maybe it’s because I know so many military people. The hispanics in the US military are fiercely patriotic, and they DO fly the American Flag. I even know hispanics who got Amnesty in 1986. Great people who think Reagan was the best president ever. Milwaukee DOES have a part of town that is heavily hispanic, but I’m not afraid to go there. I once lost my checkbook in a restaurant (everybody working there was “south of the border”) there and didn’t discover the loss for 2 days. When I telephoned the place, they had it in the office. I went to pick it up and nothing was missing. These people you are so scared of did me a good turn and they didn’t even know me.

    As for Grace’s comment @189, ROFL. Do you really think you have preserved your “European heritage”? I don’t know any Europeans who think you have. As far as Europeans are concerned, we Americans all fell into that beige melting pot centuries ago. And our culture is not all that much like theirs anymore. Shoot, just try telling a CANADIAN that you think you have a common culture with him and see what you get back. I know I have a lot more in common with second or third generation Hispanic Americans (at least the ones from around here) than I do with white Canadians. Frankly, Southern White people have more in common culturally (food, religion, priorities) with Southern Black people than either one of them have in common with me.

    Anyway, Don is right, with you two, hostility from hispanics is a self fulfilling prophesy. A major reason some of them aren’t buying is that too many people like you aren’t selling.

  • DonS

    SG @ 215: “But no one is telling them that, in fact just the opposite. Telling them that they can achieve doesn’t make it happen.”

    YOU are telling them that. By your very statement. Cheerleading or positive thinking isn’t the issue. Education and engagement as to what American values truly are is what is necessary. Immigrants (and, yes Grace, I am talking about legal ones) today are taught by leftists, and they are taught that we are an exploitive country. They are also taught that we are rich, and that liberal policies can help them get theirs. They don’t receive any other consistent message, as conservatives and Republicans have been busy bashing them and complaining about them and, by so doing, falling right into the trap that the left has set.

    We only have three choices. One is to close the borders. Whether that is a good idea or not is irrelevant because you and I both know it is not going to happen. Another is to sit around and whine and complain about how selfish and ungrateful current immigrants are compared to our forefathers from northern Europe, who came in and became real Americans. OK, that’s fine. But it doesn’t help. The third option is to do the hard work of being the counter-culture — teaching our newer residents and citizens what American was founded to stand for, and that they are far better off going out and getting to work and taking advantage of the opportunities offered by an open society like our’s, rather than filling themselves with the resentment offered by the left and trying to get as many free goodies as they can.

    This effort has nothing to do with data. If we work hard and educate, some will understand and believe. That’s all we need. Some. Over time, they will then educate their families, throw off the shackles the left places on them, and begin to build a culture based on pride in America and achievement.

    I don’t really see that we have a choice.

  • DonS

    SG @ 215: “But no one is telling them that, in fact just the opposite. Telling them that they can achieve doesn’t make it happen.”

    YOU are telling them that. By your very statement. Cheerleading or positive thinking isn’t the issue. Education and engagement as to what American values truly are is what is necessary. Immigrants (and, yes Grace, I am talking about legal ones) today are taught by leftists, and they are taught that we are an exploitive country. They are also taught that we are rich, and that liberal policies can help them get theirs. They don’t receive any other consistent message, as conservatives and Republicans have been busy bashing them and complaining about them and, by so doing, falling right into the trap that the left has set.

    We only have three choices. One is to close the borders. Whether that is a good idea or not is irrelevant because you and I both know it is not going to happen. Another is to sit around and whine and complain about how selfish and ungrateful current immigrants are compared to our forefathers from northern Europe, who came in and became real Americans. OK, that’s fine. But it doesn’t help. The third option is to do the hard work of being the counter-culture — teaching our newer residents and citizens what American was founded to stand for, and that they are far better off going out and getting to work and taking advantage of the opportunities offered by an open society like our’s, rather than filling themselves with the resentment offered by the left and trying to get as many free goodies as they can.

    This effort has nothing to do with data. If we work hard and educate, some will understand and believe. That’s all we need. Some. Over time, they will then educate their families, throw off the shackles the left places on them, and begin to build a culture based on pride in America and achievement.

    I don’t really see that we have a choice.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “First of all, “great folks from all over” is a compound term. We have integrated folks who are “great” and “from all over”. This very admission disproves your other points.”

    No, it doesn’t.

    “Since great people can come “from all over” where they come from is not important. Where they come from is not what makes them “great”. A “great” person can be found anywhere.”

    Where they come from matters if you are not screening them and you have a mountain of data on the performance of their co ethnics.

    Let’s consider incidence rates

    1,000 people from group A
    renders
    100 criminals
    500 on welfare/at home mothers
    300 workers
    100 high achievers
    2nd generation 50% graduation rate, 50% illegitimacy rate 3.0 birthrate, 10% incarceration rate.

    1,000 people from group B
    renders
    10 criminals
    50 on welfare
    340 workers/at home mothers
    600 high achievers
    2nd generation 90% graduation rate, 10% illegitimacy rate, 1.9 birthrate, .1% incarceration rate.

    Now which group do you want more of?

    So technically both groups had criminals, welfare folks, stay home moms and high achievers.

    Neither group is perfect and both contain great folks who are proud to be Americans, but that is far from the whole story. We need to be honest about it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “First of all, “great folks from all over” is a compound term. We have integrated folks who are “great” and “from all over”. This very admission disproves your other points.”

    No, it doesn’t.

    “Since great people can come “from all over” where they come from is not important. Where they come from is not what makes them “great”. A “great” person can be found anywhere.”

    Where they come from matters if you are not screening them and you have a mountain of data on the performance of their co ethnics.

    Let’s consider incidence rates

    1,000 people from group A
    renders
    100 criminals
    500 on welfare/at home mothers
    300 workers
    100 high achievers
    2nd generation 50% graduation rate, 50% illegitimacy rate 3.0 birthrate, 10% incarceration rate.

    1,000 people from group B
    renders
    10 criminals
    50 on welfare
    340 workers/at home mothers
    600 high achievers
    2nd generation 90% graduation rate, 10% illegitimacy rate, 1.9 birthrate, .1% incarceration rate.

    Now which group do you want more of?

    So technically both groups had criminals, welfare folks, stay home moms and high achievers.

    Neither group is perfect and both contain great folks who are proud to be Americans, but that is far from the whole story. We need to be honest about it.

  • Grace

    Don

    I don’t apologize – in fact your constant rebuke of racial studies is unwarranted. The reason you don’t agree with them, is because the studies of ethnic and racial backgrounds is evidence of those who either cannot achieve or they are too lazy to study – there are only two choices – of which you would like to blame something or someone else, or have another comparison study. The ones who are legal can either take jobs they are qualified for, OR they can trot back to community college and take the necessary courses so they can achieve something better. It is up to them.

    “And then come back and apologize for accusing me of lying.”

    I didn’t accuse you of lying Don – that is twisting the truth.

    What I did say #214 “Don – sure you are, yep thats it.”

    You are not able to accept that someone else disagrees with you. Your whole argument was bathed in comments regarding race and ethnic studies, such as:

    You wrote 184

    “Numbers are fine. I like them too. But, you are basically admitting that these race studies are designed and funded, often using public money, to provide evidence for continued discriminatory policies by our government institutions. There is no legitimate purpose for these studies, because there can be no legitimate response to them. It is a leftist game to evaluate people as members of groups, rather than as individuals. We should resist such efforts as being unAmerican and dehumanizing.

    Oh there is a purpose for such studies – the old “leftist game” excuse doesn’t work – it is an excellent way to determine the educational outcome of students – and that includes those who are legal and illegal. Ethnic and race studies prove much, it just doesn’t go down well with those who haven’t achieved. That isn’t a leftist idea Don, that is my idea as a conservative!

  • Grace

    Don

    I don’t apologize – in fact your constant rebuke of racial studies is unwarranted. The reason you don’t agree with them, is because the studies of ethnic and racial backgrounds is evidence of those who either cannot achieve or they are too lazy to study – there are only two choices – of which you would like to blame something or someone else, or have another comparison study. The ones who are legal can either take jobs they are qualified for, OR they can trot back to community college and take the necessary courses so they can achieve something better. It is up to them.

    “And then come back and apologize for accusing me of lying.”

    I didn’t accuse you of lying Don – that is twisting the truth.

    What I did say #214 “Don – sure you are, yep thats it.”

    You are not able to accept that someone else disagrees with you. Your whole argument was bathed in comments regarding race and ethnic studies, such as:

    You wrote 184

    “Numbers are fine. I like them too. But, you are basically admitting that these race studies are designed and funded, often using public money, to provide evidence for continued discriminatory policies by our government institutions. There is no legitimate purpose for these studies, because there can be no legitimate response to them. It is a leftist game to evaluate people as members of groups, rather than as individuals. We should resist such efforts as being unAmerican and dehumanizing.

    Oh there is a purpose for such studies – the old “leftist game” excuse doesn’t work – it is an excellent way to determine the educational outcome of students – and that includes those who are legal and illegal. Ethnic and race studies prove much, it just doesn’t go down well with those who haven’t achieved. That isn’t a leftist idea Don, that is my idea as a conservative!

  • DonS

    Grace @ 220:

    “What I did say #214 “Don – sure you are, yep thats it.”

    Please explain what you meant by that comment. To me, it means that you are sarcastically refuting my prior statement that I was talking about legal, rather than illegal, immigrants. This means that you think I was lying.

    If that is not, in fact, what you meant, then please explain what you did mean.

    As for the rest of your comment, you are certainly free to disagree. We have discussions for the purpose of sharing ideas and perspectives, and why we each think the way we do. I’m fine with people disagreeing with me, once I am comfortable that they do so fully knowing what I believe and why. If you think that we are always being asked to supply our self-identified race category so that the requester can prove that some races are higher achievers than others, you are certainly welcome to that belief.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 220:

    “What I did say #214 “Don – sure you are, yep thats it.”

    Please explain what you meant by that comment. To me, it means that you are sarcastically refuting my prior statement that I was talking about legal, rather than illegal, immigrants. This means that you think I was lying.

    If that is not, in fact, what you meant, then please explain what you did mean.

    As for the rest of your comment, you are certainly free to disagree. We have discussions for the purpose of sharing ideas and perspectives, and why we each think the way we do. I’m fine with people disagreeing with me, once I am comfortable that they do so fully knowing what I believe and why. If you think that we are always being asked to supply our self-identified race category so that the requester can prove that some races are higher achievers than others, you are certainly welcome to that belief.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “YOU are telling them that. By your very statement.”

    No, I am not. I am reporting data. Stuff that has already happen, not prediction. Besides, you could tell Asians that all day long, and it wouldn’t slow them down.

    “Education and engagement as to what American values truly are is what is necessary.”

    Ugh, the endless repetition of the liberal line. We have done that. We do it every day. It works for Asians but not for the others, on average. Education does not work on everyone the same way. It is not our fault.

    “Immigrants (and, yes Grace, I am talking about legal ones) today are taught by leftists, and they are taught that we are an exploitive country. They are also taught that we are rich, and that liberal policies can help them get theirs. They don’t receive any other consistent message,”

    Yeah, that is a problem. One that the Texas School Board tackled at its last curriculum meeting.

    “as conservatives and Republicans have been busy bashing them and complaining about them and, by so doing, falling right into the trap that the left has set.”

    No they haven’t. The media just says they have.

    “One is to close the borders. Whether that is a good idea or not is irrelevant because you and I both know it is not going to happen.”

    Then we are no longer a democracy.
    Even hispanics favor closing the borders. It is the single most popular proposition out there according to polling data. It is not popular with liberals, the media, and the employers who exploit illegals.

    “The third option is to do the hard work of being the counter-culture — teaching our newer residents and citizens what American was founded to stand for, and that they are far better off going out and getting to work and taking advantage of the opportunities offered by an open society like our’s, rather than filling themselves with the resentment offered by the left and trying to get as many free goodies as they can.”

    Sheesh, if ever there were a job description for the public schools, that has got to be it. Kids need to recite that verbatim at the beginning of everyday right after the pledge of allegiance.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “YOU are telling them that. By your very statement.”

    No, I am not. I am reporting data. Stuff that has already happen, not prediction. Besides, you could tell Asians that all day long, and it wouldn’t slow them down.

    “Education and engagement as to what American values truly are is what is necessary.”

    Ugh, the endless repetition of the liberal line. We have done that. We do it every day. It works for Asians but not for the others, on average. Education does not work on everyone the same way. It is not our fault.

    “Immigrants (and, yes Grace, I am talking about legal ones) today are taught by leftists, and they are taught that we are an exploitive country. They are also taught that we are rich, and that liberal policies can help them get theirs. They don’t receive any other consistent message,”

    Yeah, that is a problem. One that the Texas School Board tackled at its last curriculum meeting.

    “as conservatives and Republicans have been busy bashing them and complaining about them and, by so doing, falling right into the trap that the left has set.”

    No they haven’t. The media just says they have.

    “One is to close the borders. Whether that is a good idea or not is irrelevant because you and I both know it is not going to happen.”

    Then we are no longer a democracy.
    Even hispanics favor closing the borders. It is the single most popular proposition out there according to polling data. It is not popular with liberals, the media, and the employers who exploit illegals.

    “The third option is to do the hard work of being the counter-culture — teaching our newer residents and citizens what American was founded to stand for, and that they are far better off going out and getting to work and taking advantage of the opportunities offered by an open society like our’s, rather than filling themselves with the resentment offered by the left and trying to get as many free goodies as they can.”

    Sheesh, if ever there were a job description for the public schools, that has got to be it. Kids need to recite that verbatim at the beginning of everyday right after the pledge of allegiance.

  • Grace

    kerner – 217

    “Don S @210: Frustrating, isn’t it. Look ladies, I have no problem with most hispanics I know. Particularly those who are 2nd generation or more. Maybe it’s because I live ion Wisconsin where they are further from the border, but when I lived in California, which I admit was 30 years ago,”

    It is light years from 30 years ago – there is no comparison. You don’t have a clue if you don’t live here, Texas or Arizona.

    “As for Grace’s comment @189, ROFL. Do you really think you have preserved your “European heritage”? I don’t know any Europeans who think you have. As far as Europeans are concerned, we Americans all fell into that beige melting pot centuries ago. And our culture is not all that much like theirs anymore. Shoot, just try telling a CANADIAN that you think you have a common culture with him and see what you get back.”

    There is that ‘beige bench mark’ trying to fix ethnicity?

    Canadians are very different from us, having done a lot of business with them, it becomes obvious – we may have physical characteristics, but it stops there. Of course much of their soci@lism has rubbed off on their neighbors, close to the border, …. it’s easy if you give in to their weak arguments, and they certainly can argue, it’s a pass-time for many Canadians – even in public first class restaurants. They should be embarrassed but they are not.

    My family both sides have preserved our European heritage and culture, and so have millions of other families. Because you feel differently doesn’t make mine, or others backgrounds and culture, as you describe. Actually bringing up Canadians is a busting hoot!

  • Grace

    kerner – 217

    “Don S @210: Frustrating, isn’t it. Look ladies, I have no problem with most hispanics I know. Particularly those who are 2nd generation or more. Maybe it’s because I live ion Wisconsin where they are further from the border, but when I lived in California, which I admit was 30 years ago,”

    It is light years from 30 years ago – there is no comparison. You don’t have a clue if you don’t live here, Texas or Arizona.

    “As for Grace’s comment @189, ROFL. Do you really think you have preserved your “European heritage”? I don’t know any Europeans who think you have. As far as Europeans are concerned, we Americans all fell into that beige melting pot centuries ago. And our culture is not all that much like theirs anymore. Shoot, just try telling a CANADIAN that you think you have a common culture with him and see what you get back.”

    There is that ‘beige bench mark’ trying to fix ethnicity?

    Canadians are very different from us, having done a lot of business with them, it becomes obvious – we may have physical characteristics, but it stops there. Of course much of their soci@lism has rubbed off on their neighbors, close to the border, …. it’s easy if you give in to their weak arguments, and they certainly can argue, it’s a pass-time for many Canadians – even in public first class restaurants. They should be embarrassed but they are not.

    My family both sides have preserved our European heritage and culture, and so have millions of other families. Because you feel differently doesn’t make mine, or others backgrounds and culture, as you describe. Actually bringing up Canadians is a busting hoot!

  • DonS

    sg @ 222: Yes, of course. You are just a reporter. :-) Of data. Just the facts.

    “We have done that. We do it every day.” Who has done that? Who educates immigrants every day as to what it means to be an American? I don’t see it. Not at all.

    “No they haven’t. The media just says they have.”

    Huh? You and Grace have been doing exactly that for the past 200 posts.

    “Then we are no longer a democracy.
    Even hispanics favor closing the borders. It is the single most popular proposition out there according to polling data. It is not popular with liberals, the media, and the employers who exploit illegals. ”

    Well, I don’t think so. Yes, it’s possible to do a better job preventing illegal immigration. We’ve talked about that on this thread — fence, border agents, employer enforcement. We need to do that. But what I was talking about was closing the borders to legal immigration. THAT is not the most popular polling proposition out there, and certainly not with Hispanics. We are going to have further immigration, by ethnics other than white Europeans. Like it or not. Democracy or not. And, moreover, since whites, other than homeschoolers and Mormons, have decided to stop reproducing, whites are going to become a minority, and then a smaller and smaller one, over the next few decades. I’m just reporting the data, ma’am.

    So, again, our only choice is to educate and assimilate. Or whine and complain.

    “Sheesh, if ever there were a job description for the public schools, that has got to be it. Kids need to recite that verbatim at the beginning of everyday right after the pledge of allegiance.”

    Great, let’s leave this to the public schools! Super idea — public employee teachers unions do such a great job of inculcating conservative American values. You can see what a bang-up job they’ve done in the past 50 years.

  • DonS

    sg @ 222: Yes, of course. You are just a reporter. :-) Of data. Just the facts.

    “We have done that. We do it every day.” Who has done that? Who educates immigrants every day as to what it means to be an American? I don’t see it. Not at all.

    “No they haven’t. The media just says they have.”

    Huh? You and Grace have been doing exactly that for the past 200 posts.

    “Then we are no longer a democracy.
    Even hispanics favor closing the borders. It is the single most popular proposition out there according to polling data. It is not popular with liberals, the media, and the employers who exploit illegals. ”

    Well, I don’t think so. Yes, it’s possible to do a better job preventing illegal immigration. We’ve talked about that on this thread — fence, border agents, employer enforcement. We need to do that. But what I was talking about was closing the borders to legal immigration. THAT is not the most popular polling proposition out there, and certainly not with Hispanics. We are going to have further immigration, by ethnics other than white Europeans. Like it or not. Democracy or not. And, moreover, since whites, other than homeschoolers and Mormons, have decided to stop reproducing, whites are going to become a minority, and then a smaller and smaller one, over the next few decades. I’m just reporting the data, ma’am.

    So, again, our only choice is to educate and assimilate. Or whine and complain.

    “Sheesh, if ever there were a job description for the public schools, that has got to be it. Kids need to recite that verbatim at the beginning of everyday right after the pledge of allegiance.”

    Great, let’s leave this to the public schools! Super idea — public employee teachers unions do such a great job of inculcating conservative American values. You can see what a bang-up job they’ve done in the past 50 years.

  • kerner

    Grace @223:

    A hoot it may be, but all I was saying about Canadians is the the fact that we are both white does not mean that we have a common culture. You seem to agree with that, so I see no point in arguing about it further. You didn’t say anything about whether you agreed or disagreed with my statement about having more in common with Mexican Americans than with foreign white people, but at least you seem to admit that we have little in common with foreign white Canadians.

    So, you have preserved your “European culture”? So, what particular cultures from Europe did you preserve, and how?

    sg@219:

    It is rare that you post numbers without a link to your source. Could you post it please, or refer me to a comment where it may be found.

  • kerner

    Grace @223:

    A hoot it may be, but all I was saying about Canadians is the the fact that we are both white does not mean that we have a common culture. You seem to agree with that, so I see no point in arguing about it further. You didn’t say anything about whether you agreed or disagreed with my statement about having more in common with Mexican Americans than with foreign white people, but at least you seem to admit that we have little in common with foreign white Canadians.

    So, you have preserved your “European culture”? So, what particular cultures from Europe did you preserve, and how?

    sg@219:

    It is rare that you post numbers without a link to your source. Could you post it please, or refer me to a comment where it may be found.

  • Grace

    “American was founded to stand for, and that they are far better off going out and getting to work and taking advantage of the opportunities offered by an open society like our’s, rather than filling themselves with the resentment offered by the left and trying to get as many free goodies as they can.”

    The people that are represented as the “resentment” group, believe they were/are entitled long before they stepped on American soil. They most certainly didn’t learn it from the left. The argument you offer is yet ANOTHER EXCUSE to shed those who resent, envy, from SELF RESPONSIBILITY, taking everything they can through government agencies, etc.,

    Why don’t you stop looking for another excuse and put the blame and shame on those who are lazing about?

  • Grace

    “American was founded to stand for, and that they are far better off going out and getting to work and taking advantage of the opportunities offered by an open society like our’s, rather than filling themselves with the resentment offered by the left and trying to get as many free goodies as they can.”

    The people that are represented as the “resentment” group, believe they were/are entitled long before they stepped on American soil. They most certainly didn’t learn it from the left. The argument you offer is yet ANOTHER EXCUSE to shed those who resent, envy, from SELF RESPONSIBILITY, taking everything they can through government agencies, etc.,

    Why don’t you stop looking for another excuse and put the blame and shame on those who are lazing about?

  • kerner

    Don S@224:

    Hey pal! 5 kids (all from the same woman) and 4 grandchildren so far! I did MY share. :)

    But seriously, I agree. Geerally, white people are not reproducing their group. Their replacements will come from somewhere.

  • kerner

    Don S@224:

    Hey pal! 5 kids (all from the same woman) and 4 grandchildren so far! I did MY share. :)

    But seriously, I agree. Geerally, white people are not reproducing their group. Their replacements will come from somewhere.

  • kerner

    I mean “Generally”. :P

  • kerner

    I mean “Generally”. :P

  • DonS

    LOL, Kerner @ 227 & 228! I guess I should have also referenced “a few stray Lutherans and Catholics” as well.

    Congratulations on your family and legacy! We have five also. No grandkids yet, but two married, so maybe soon ;-)

  • DonS

    LOL, Kerner @ 227 & 228! I guess I should have also referenced “a few stray Lutherans and Catholics” as well.

    Congratulations on your family and legacy! We have five also. No grandkids yet, but two married, so maybe soon ;-)

  • DonS

    Grace @ 226: I think your comment speaks for itself. No response required.

    Let the reader decide ;-)

  • DonS

    Grace @ 226: I think your comment speaks for itself. No response required.

    Let the reader decide ;-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We have done that. We do it every day.” Who has done that? Who educates immigrants every day as to what it means to be an American? I don’t see it. Not at all.”

    The public schools do it. What you don’t see are the results you want, so you blame the teachers and the schools. Now they may not do a fantastic job, but it works for the Asian kids. So, it goes back to the kids not the teachers and schools.

    “We are going to have further immigration, by ethnics other than white Europeans. Like it or not.”

    Fine with me so long as we screen them.

    “Democracy or not.”

    What do you mean? Do you think the people no longer have the power to choose their representatives?

    “So, again, our only choice is to educate and assimilate. Or whine and complain.”

    Oh, no fair. Can’t we do both, please? (sorry couldn’t resist)
    Look, we can educate all we want, it doesn’t mean it is going to work. All I am saying is that there is no evidence that importing low performing groups will render a good result. If citizens choose to accelerate decline by importing them, they need to do it with their eyes open.

    The faith in the failed avenue of education is disturbing. It has been noted that continuing doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insane.

    “Great, let’s leave this to the public schools! Super idea — public employee teachers unions do such a great job of inculcating conservative American values. You can see what a bang-up job they’ve done in the past 50 years.”

    I posted the AP data, scores are up.
    Grace posted the SAT data, scores are up.
    It is not the teachers. It is the students. There is a growing segment of low performers dependent on government and a shrinking segment of higher performers that produce. People vote their self interest. If that is government largesse, they vote for it, unfortunately. Maybe you need to run for School Board and help guide what immigrants are taught. I don’t mean that sarcastic. Good men are needed to serve. You seem like you care and would do a good job. Unions can’t defy the Board.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We have done that. We do it every day.” Who has done that? Who educates immigrants every day as to what it means to be an American? I don’t see it. Not at all.”

    The public schools do it. What you don’t see are the results you want, so you blame the teachers and the schools. Now they may not do a fantastic job, but it works for the Asian kids. So, it goes back to the kids not the teachers and schools.

    “We are going to have further immigration, by ethnics other than white Europeans. Like it or not.”

    Fine with me so long as we screen them.

    “Democracy or not.”

    What do you mean? Do you think the people no longer have the power to choose their representatives?

    “So, again, our only choice is to educate and assimilate. Or whine and complain.”

    Oh, no fair. Can’t we do both, please? (sorry couldn’t resist)
    Look, we can educate all we want, it doesn’t mean it is going to work. All I am saying is that there is no evidence that importing low performing groups will render a good result. If citizens choose to accelerate decline by importing them, they need to do it with their eyes open.

    The faith in the failed avenue of education is disturbing. It has been noted that continuing doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insane.

    “Great, let’s leave this to the public schools! Super idea — public employee teachers unions do such a great job of inculcating conservative American values. You can see what a bang-up job they’ve done in the past 50 years.”

    I posted the AP data, scores are up.
    Grace posted the SAT data, scores are up.
    It is not the teachers. It is the students. There is a growing segment of low performers dependent on government and a shrinking segment of higher performers that produce. People vote their self interest. If that is government largesse, they vote for it, unfortunately. Maybe you need to run for School Board and help guide what immigrants are taught. I don’t mean that sarcastic. Good men are needed to serve. You seem like you care and would do a good job. Unions can’t defy the Board.

  • Grace

    Don you wrote 0 210 :

    “scraps from the public benefit trough”

    The so called “scraps” are billions of dollars

    Don you wrote: – 230

    “I think your comment speaks for itself. No response required.

    Let the reader decide”

    Yes let the reader see the publc trough and the little respect that is given for billions of dollars (TAXES) to those who mock, scorn, and want even more.

  • Grace

    Don you wrote 0 210 :

    “scraps from the public benefit trough”

    The so called “scraps” are billions of dollars

    Don you wrote: – 230

    “I think your comment speaks for itself. No response required.

    Let the reader decide”

    Yes let the reader see the publc trough and the little respect that is given for billions of dollars (TAXES) to those who mock, scorn, and want even more.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Man, I can’t believe you guys decided to have a ridiculously drawn-out, non-edifying, finger-pointing conversation and didn’t even think to invite me … cough

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Man, I can’t believe you guys decided to have a ridiculously drawn-out, non-edifying, finger-pointing conversation and didn’t even think to invite me … cough

  • DonS

    sg @ 231: Yes, the public schools do it. And they do a swimmingly great job of teaching historic constitutionalism and the small government individualism that the Founders intended.

    Look, I homeschool for a reason. I don’t think those of us on the right can delegate education of our ideals and principles to the public schools. And, by the way, Asians vote substantially majority Democratic as well. So, I don’t think you’re right when you say it “works for the Asians

    ““Democracy or not.”
    What do you mean? Do you think the people no longer have the power to choose their representatives?”

    Of course not. All I meant was that even though we are a democracy, we are not going to substantially restrict legal immigration. It’s just not going to happen, and it is not an objective of either political party.

    As to your latter points, I am not referencing academic achievement. I am talking about educating our students as to our constitutional heritage, and our country’s unique focus on the rights and liberties of individuals, as opposed to big government social welfare and groupthink. If we want our immigrants to understand what it means to be a patriotic American, and to appreciate the opportunity they are privileged to have in this country, WE are going to have to teach them. They will not get that teaching in the public schools. That is not the mindset of the left and the educational establishment.

  • DonS

    sg @ 231: Yes, the public schools do it. And they do a swimmingly great job of teaching historic constitutionalism and the small government individualism that the Founders intended.

    Look, I homeschool for a reason. I don’t think those of us on the right can delegate education of our ideals and principles to the public schools. And, by the way, Asians vote substantially majority Democratic as well. So, I don’t think you’re right when you say it “works for the Asians

    ““Democracy or not.”
    What do you mean? Do you think the people no longer have the power to choose their representatives?”

    Of course not. All I meant was that even though we are a democracy, we are not going to substantially restrict legal immigration. It’s just not going to happen, and it is not an objective of either political party.

    As to your latter points, I am not referencing academic achievement. I am talking about educating our students as to our constitutional heritage, and our country’s unique focus on the rights and liberties of individuals, as opposed to big government social welfare and groupthink. If we want our immigrants to understand what it means to be a patriotic American, and to appreciate the opportunity they are privileged to have in this country, WE are going to have to teach them. They will not get that teaching in the public schools. That is not the mindset of the left and the educational establishment.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 232: Huh? What in the heck are you talking about? Of course I understand that we spend billions of tax dollars on public benefits. I pay a relatively huge amount in taxes every year to support them. That doesn’t change the fact that, to each beneficiary, after filtering those tax dollars through the huge public bureaucracy, they are scraps. A few hundred a month, in exchange for permanent dependence on government, the loss of personal dignity, and the loss of any sense of achievement. It’s a terrible bargain, and the left makes it largely for the cynical purpose of buying votes.

    I guess I don’t really expect you to understand the point I am trying to make, so I am not sure why I keep trying.

  • DonS

    Grace @ 232: Huh? What in the heck are you talking about? Of course I understand that we spend billions of tax dollars on public benefits. I pay a relatively huge amount in taxes every year to support them. That doesn’t change the fact that, to each beneficiary, after filtering those tax dollars through the huge public bureaucracy, they are scraps. A few hundred a month, in exchange for permanent dependence on government, the loss of personal dignity, and the loss of any sense of achievement. It’s a terrible bargain, and the left makes it largely for the cynical purpose of buying votes.

    I guess I don’t really expect you to understand the point I am trying to make, so I am not sure why I keep trying.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 233: Sorry. I know you really enjoy these discussions with Grace. ;-)

  • DonS

    tODD @ 233: Sorry. I know you really enjoy these discussions with Grace. ;-)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS (@236), hey now, I’m not taking sides. Heck, I’m not really keeping up on this thread — you “conservatives” can fight this out amongst yourselves.

    I was just poking my head in to make an observation. If you, as individuals, think you’re still advancing the discussion and lovingly edifying each other, then by all means, please continue.

    But if it gives you pause that even I‘m a bit taken aback by the turn things have taken, well, that’s okay, too.

    By which I do not mean to hold myself up as an example, as we all know I have too readily engaged in less-than-loving behavior on this blog. But do take a step back, will you?

    And if anyone needs to talk about something else, we’re having a rather pleasant conversation about wine elsewhere on this blog — Stephen, Grace, Dust, and I. So it can happen. :)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS (@236), hey now, I’m not taking sides. Heck, I’m not really keeping up on this thread — you “conservatives” can fight this out amongst yourselves.

    I was just poking my head in to make an observation. If you, as individuals, think you’re still advancing the discussion and lovingly edifying each other, then by all means, please continue.

    But if it gives you pause that even I‘m a bit taken aback by the turn things have taken, well, that’s okay, too.

    By which I do not mean to hold myself up as an example, as we all know I have too readily engaged in less-than-loving behavior on this blog. But do take a step back, will you?

    And if anyone needs to talk about something else, we’re having a rather pleasant conversation about wine elsewhere on this blog — Stephen, Grace, Dust, and I. So it can happen. :)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS,

    The thing is I am not sure that what we would wish to do is even possible. I mean, we have seen Christians build great nations that folks want to move to but we haven’t seen secular folks build great nations just on principles. Yes, they had principles and yes, they were great principles but they required a population that included a substantial fraction of Christians to pull it off. Believe it or not, I have had this same conversation with atheists that don’t think it is even possible to build or maintain a great nation without Christians as the basis of civil society. The self regulating behavior and the value on the individual are necessary conditions for functioning democracy. Honestly, I think the all the patriotic education in the world is not what we need. People need Jesus. He is the only real foundation on which to build. Diverse folks can be members of one body in Christ. Jesus saves. The United States of America, much as I love it, does not.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS,

    The thing is I am not sure that what we would wish to do is even possible. I mean, we have seen Christians build great nations that folks want to move to but we haven’t seen secular folks build great nations just on principles. Yes, they had principles and yes, they were great principles but they required a population that included a substantial fraction of Christians to pull it off. Believe it or not, I have had this same conversation with atheists that don’t think it is even possible to build or maintain a great nation without Christians as the basis of civil society. The self regulating behavior and the value on the individual are necessary conditions for functioning democracy. Honestly, I think the all the patriotic education in the world is not what we need. People need Jesus. He is the only real foundation on which to build. Diverse folks can be members of one body in Christ. Jesus saves. The United States of America, much as I love it, does not.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But seriously, I agree. Geerally, white people are not reproducing their group. Their replacements will come from somewhere.”

    This is a question, not an argument. Where does the idea that we have to have a growing population come from? I am not against having kids, even many. That is not my point at all. But why do we think we have to have a growing population? What do you guys think?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But seriously, I agree. Geerally, white people are not reproducing their group. Their replacements will come from somewhere.”

    This is a question, not an argument. Where does the idea that we have to have a growing population come from? I am not against having kids, even many. That is not my point at all. But why do we think we have to have a growing population? What do you guys think?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    sg @ 239

    That is actually a great and unasked question SG. I think it is the idea that there needs to be a younger productive population to a) support the oldsters and b) remain competitive on the world market in terms of consumption, productivity and innovation.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    sg @ 239

    That is actually a great and unasked question SG. I think it is the idea that there needs to be a younger productive population to a) support the oldsters and b) remain competitive on the world market in terms of consumption, productivity and innovation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Man, I can’t believe you guys decided to have a ridiculously drawn-out, non-edifying, finger-pointing conversation and didn’t even think to invite me … cough …”

    And Todd stops by to insult us.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Man, I can’t believe you guys decided to have a ridiculously drawn-out, non-edifying, finger-pointing conversation and didn’t even think to invite me … cough …”

    And Todd stops by to insult us.

  • Grace

    Hey tODD – I was wondering when you would drop by – where is Dust – I have a good bottle of wine waiting for you, Stephen and Dust – SG is waiting for the the yummy tray -

  • Grace

    Hey tODD – I was wondering when you would drop by – where is Dust – I have a good bottle of wine waiting for you, Stephen and Dust – SG is waiting for the the yummy tray -

  • Grace

    sg, tODD wasn’t being insulting, he was just being tODD,…. I promise the yummy tray will be right out. :lol:

  • Grace

    sg, tODD wasn’t being insulting, he was just being tODD,…. I promise the yummy tray will be right out. :lol:

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sg, tODD wasn’t being insulting, he was just being tODD,…. I promise the yummy tray will be right out.

    Maybe it is the way things come across in print, but Todd gets offened pretty easily, so the notion that he isn’t sensitive to how he comes across is dubious.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sg, tODD wasn’t being insulting, he was just being tODD,…. I promise the yummy tray will be right out.

    Maybe it is the way things come across in print, but Todd gets offened pretty easily, so the notion that he isn’t sensitive to how he comes across is dubious.

  • Grace

    Sg, maybe he needs a great glass of wine -

    tODD, please send a few :) the right way, or I will have to send you :mrgreen: he’s a nasty little guy -

  • Grace

    Sg, maybe he needs a great glass of wine -

    tODD, please send a few :) the right way, or I will have to send you :mrgreen: he’s a nasty little guy -

  • Grace

    Amnesty was granted in 1986 and later for illegal aliens – that didn’t stop the tide, it became a TIDAL WAVE, which we pay for every year.

    Those who were granted amnesty then became legal, …… many helped their relatives and friends below the southern border to come to the United States, they in turn became the NEW illegal aliens –

    Lying, cheating, stealing that which illegal aliens are not entitled to continues, with U.S. citizens footing the bill.

    Every person who came here illegally and then received amnesty, in my opinion has thrown ‘good will’ out the window in OUR FACES – again we face the same situation.

    Our prison population rises with illegal aliens. Where is the benefit of amnesty? – there is none, it is a crutch for those who receive it, to legally help those who are still south of the border.

    This is only going to get worse, our schools have suffered, health, welfare, and then we have drug traffic that has grown to MONSTROUS proportions – of course those who support illegals, being friends, relatives, etc, would argue the point. Until we put laws in place, such as the one Arizona approved, build a fence, it will not change.

    A fence, troops are much cheaper than what we have now. We also would have the benefit of more jobs, at least for the young people, teens and college age. Our taxes would not be spent to bring illegal aliens up to speed in public schools – our children would be much safer. Gangs wouldn’t disappear, but they certainly wouldn’t grow like the weeds in their back yard, transporting them here to start a new seed planting!

  • Grace

    Amnesty was granted in 1986 and later for illegal aliens – that didn’t stop the tide, it became a TIDAL WAVE, which we pay for every year.

    Those who were granted amnesty then became legal, …… many helped their relatives and friends below the southern border to come to the United States, they in turn became the NEW illegal aliens –

    Lying, cheating, stealing that which illegal aliens are not entitled to continues, with U.S. citizens footing the bill.

    Every person who came here illegally and then received amnesty, in my opinion has thrown ‘good will’ out the window in OUR FACES – again we face the same situation.

    Our prison population rises with illegal aliens. Where is the benefit of amnesty? – there is none, it is a crutch for those who receive it, to legally help those who are still south of the border.

    This is only going to get worse, our schools have suffered, health, welfare, and then we have drug traffic that has grown to MONSTROUS proportions – of course those who support illegals, being friends, relatives, etc, would argue the point. Until we put laws in place, such as the one Arizona approved, build a fence, it will not change.

    A fence, troops are much cheaper than what we have now. We also would have the benefit of more jobs, at least for the young people, teens and college age. Our taxes would not be spent to bring illegal aliens up to speed in public schools – our children would be much safer. Gangs wouldn’t disappear, but they certainly wouldn’t grow like the weeds in their back yard, transporting them here to start a new seed planting!

  • Grace

    fws – I don’t think your posts are all showing up on the blog – have you checked this out?

    If I haven’t answered you, please post again -

  • Grace

    fws – I don’t think your posts are all showing up on the blog – have you checked this out?

    If I haven’t answered you, please post again -

  • kerner

    Before I give up on tis completely, I have to respond to a couple of things.

    “If you are the employer, naturally you would want to get more from him than you give, but such is not honorable.”

    Wrong. Every employer gets more than he gives every employee. And there’s nothing dishonorable about it. It’s called “profit”, and profit is the ONLY reason to employ anyone. If the employer can’t make a profit from the employee, the employee ceases to have a job. This is how business works and has always worked.

    “then this is no longer a democracy”

    It may not matter that much to this discussion, but this was never a democracy. The United States is a republic.

    “You just ignore the fact that (Norway) is a high trust society, like that is nothing.”

    I never said it was nothing. It just isn’t what makes a country great. Look, I don’t have anything against Norwegians (except that business of preserving cod fish in drano and claiming it is a delicasy. Yuck!) :)

    In 1940 it took Germany 60 days to take the country away from those “high trust” people. It would have taken less than that if the British hadn’t landed a couple divisions to try and help. But don’t tell me that the Norwegians built their country themselves and nobody gave them anything. It took others to give them their entire country back to them. If nobody had done so, they wouldn’t have a country today at all. Once again, I don’t point this out to insult anybody. But people shouldn’t be insulted by facts. And a fundamental fact is that all the “high functioning” in the world is worthless without the ability and willingness to defend it.

    It might be worth noting that the two emerging economic powerhouses in the world, China and India, both have very large and very diverse populations.

    India has five racial castes. It has a 200 million person Muslim population. There are several hundred spoken languages spoken in India, 29 of which are spoken by over 1 million people. The reason India is such an economic powerhouse is that it has been able to hold its diverse population together in a single unit. This is how great nations are made.

    China’s size is obvious, but there are 292 living spoken languages in China. China is also made up of many different ethnic groups. Westerners may think all Asians look the same, but they aren’t. They are far more diverse and “integrated” than we are.

    So don’t tell me that diverse peoples can’t be forged into a single powerful nation. Our two biggest economic competitors today are doing just that.

    The United States is diverse, not only ethnicly, but regionally. Our culture varies from north to south and east to west, even today. We had the chance once to do what you suggest and split up into different regions, but we made the conscious decision to stay together, and fought a bloody civil war specifically to avoid becoming a collection of the small, clanish countries such as you fantasize about. It was one of the best decisions we ever made. So don’t tell me how unnatural it is for us to be the way we are. It may be difficult to meld diverse cultures together. But it can be, and is being, done.

  • kerner

    Before I give up on tis completely, I have to respond to a couple of things.

    “If you are the employer, naturally you would want to get more from him than you give, but such is not honorable.”

    Wrong. Every employer gets more than he gives every employee. And there’s nothing dishonorable about it. It’s called “profit”, and profit is the ONLY reason to employ anyone. If the employer can’t make a profit from the employee, the employee ceases to have a job. This is how business works and has always worked.

    “then this is no longer a democracy”

    It may not matter that much to this discussion, but this was never a democracy. The United States is a republic.

    “You just ignore the fact that (Norway) is a high trust society, like that is nothing.”

    I never said it was nothing. It just isn’t what makes a country great. Look, I don’t have anything against Norwegians (except that business of preserving cod fish in drano and claiming it is a delicasy. Yuck!) :)

    In 1940 it took Germany 60 days to take the country away from those “high trust” people. It would have taken less than that if the British hadn’t landed a couple divisions to try and help. But don’t tell me that the Norwegians built their country themselves and nobody gave them anything. It took others to give them their entire country back to them. If nobody had done so, they wouldn’t have a country today at all. Once again, I don’t point this out to insult anybody. But people shouldn’t be insulted by facts. And a fundamental fact is that all the “high functioning” in the world is worthless without the ability and willingness to defend it.

    It might be worth noting that the two emerging economic powerhouses in the world, China and India, both have very large and very diverse populations.

    India has five racial castes. It has a 200 million person Muslim population. There are several hundred spoken languages spoken in India, 29 of which are spoken by over 1 million people. The reason India is such an economic powerhouse is that it has been able to hold its diverse population together in a single unit. This is how great nations are made.

    China’s size is obvious, but there are 292 living spoken languages in China. China is also made up of many different ethnic groups. Westerners may think all Asians look the same, but they aren’t. They are far more diverse and “integrated” than we are.

    So don’t tell me that diverse peoples can’t be forged into a single powerful nation. Our two biggest economic competitors today are doing just that.

    The United States is diverse, not only ethnicly, but regionally. Our culture varies from north to south and east to west, even today. We had the chance once to do what you suggest and split up into different regions, but we made the conscious decision to stay together, and fought a bloody civil war specifically to avoid becoming a collection of the small, clanish countries such as you fantasize about. It was one of the best decisions we ever made. So don’t tell me how unnatural it is for us to be the way we are. It may be difficult to meld diverse cultures together. But it can be, and is being, done.

  • DonS

    SG @ 243, 244: Well, it’s kinda hard to argue that man needs Jesus more than patriotic education, now, isn’t it? ;-)

    All we can do, as Christians, is love our neighbor. And our neighbor, these days, may have recently come from anywhere in the world. The mission field on our doorstep, you might say. Love ‘em, preach Jesus as much as they will listen, encourage them to embrace this great country we live in. Will it work? Dunno, but let’s give it a shot.

    As for your question @ 244:

    “This is a question, not an argument. Where does the idea that we have to have a growing population come from? I am not against having kids, even many. That is not my point at all. But why do we think we have to have a growing population? What do you guys think?”

    Personally, I think children are a blessing from the Lord. That’s what the Bible says, and I don’t know of anything that has superseded that biblical teaching. We had five kids, and would’ve had more if we could. That’s my answer as a Christian.

    As an American, my answer’s the same. One reason is that we have set up a house of cards, with Social Security and all of that. If we stop reproducing, the whole thing collapses ;-)

    Seriously, our population IS growing, between the effects of immigration and relatively high birth rates in minority populations. The only question is whether the white segment of the population will grow. Right now, the answer is no, as I noted above, because whites are reproducing at below replacement rate of approximately 2.1 kids/couple. I don’t think that’s a good thing. Do you?

  • DonS

    SG @ 243, 244: Well, it’s kinda hard to argue that man needs Jesus more than patriotic education, now, isn’t it? ;-)

    All we can do, as Christians, is love our neighbor. And our neighbor, these days, may have recently come from anywhere in the world. The mission field on our doorstep, you might say. Love ‘em, preach Jesus as much as they will listen, encourage them to embrace this great country we live in. Will it work? Dunno, but let’s give it a shot.

    As for your question @ 244:

    “This is a question, not an argument. Where does the idea that we have to have a growing population come from? I am not against having kids, even many. That is not my point at all. But why do we think we have to have a growing population? What do you guys think?”

    Personally, I think children are a blessing from the Lord. That’s what the Bible says, and I don’t know of anything that has superseded that biblical teaching. We had five kids, and would’ve had more if we could. That’s my answer as a Christian.

    As an American, my answer’s the same. One reason is that we have set up a house of cards, with Social Security and all of that. If we stop reproducing, the whole thing collapses ;-)

    Seriously, our population IS growing, between the effects of immigration and relatively high birth rates in minority populations. The only question is whether the white segment of the population will grow. Right now, the answer is no, as I noted above, because whites are reproducing at below replacement rate of approximately 2.1 kids/couple. I don’t think that’s a good thing. Do you?

  • DonS

    tODD @ 242: Thanks for the reminder. This accountability post is a good check on some of these wound-up discussions — I noticed Webmonk did a similar thing on another extended discussion recently, and helped turn it back to a more constructive conclusion.

    I’m in on the wine discussion, but just don’t know enough, unfortunately, to participate. As a former Baptist, I learned nothing in my youth about wine, and though I drink it on occasion, I do so in great ignorance. I also don’t cook, to any significant extent, though I did chime in with another pretty good Brazilian barbeque restaurant recommendation at one point, if you’re ever in Orange County. Believe me, I’m listening, and enjoying a little cultural enlightenment :-) Always a good thing!

  • DonS

    tODD @ 242: Thanks for the reminder. This accountability post is a good check on some of these wound-up discussions — I noticed Webmonk did a similar thing on another extended discussion recently, and helped turn it back to a more constructive conclusion.

    I’m in on the wine discussion, but just don’t know enough, unfortunately, to participate. As a former Baptist, I learned nothing in my youth about wine, and though I drink it on occasion, I do so in great ignorance. I also don’t cook, to any significant extent, though I did chime in with another pretty good Brazilian barbeque restaurant recommendation at one point, if you’re ever in Orange County. Believe me, I’m listening, and enjoying a little cultural enlightenment :-) Always a good thing!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You just ignore the fact that (Norway) is a high trust society, like that is nothing.”

    “I never said it was nothing. It just isn’t what makes a country great.”

    Yes it is. Living in a country with low crime and high social cohesion and prosperity is the definition of a great country. A country where you can trust people and live together peacefully and walk the streets at night and let your kids play outside in the neighborhood. I remember those days. It was great.

    “In 1940 it took Germany 60 days to take the country away from those “high trust” people.”

    So the Nazis were great because they had a big powerful army and the Norwegians stink because they are a tiny nation?
    What is this? might makes right?

    “But don’t tell me that the Norwegians built their country themselves and nobody gave them anything. It took others to give them their entire country back to them.”

    Yes they did. They built their society themselves. The whole thing about being overrun by the Nazis is totally tangential. No tiny country could have defended itself against the Nazis. What a ridiculous criticism. Do you think the Nazi’s plan was to exterminate the Norwegians so they could have Norway or did they want the Norwegians themselves? What is the bigger prize Norway with the Norwegians or without them?

    “If nobody had done so, they wouldn’t have a country today at all. Once again, I don’t point this out to insult anybody. But people shouldn’t be insulted by facts. And a fundamental fact is that all the “high functioning” in the world is worthless without the ability and willingness to defend it.”

    High functioning is not worthless, rather it is prized. That is why the Egyptians and Babylonians used people like Joseph and Daniel as high level advisors/administrators. Romans did the same with the Greeks. So did others. Human capital is highly prized.

    The examples of China and India are appalling. The quality of life for the poor is heartbreaking. Neither China is nor India is a shining example of upholding human dignity. Their ability to oppress their people is creepy not admirable. The caste system in India? Talk about limited social mobility. Sheesh. Notice people who can get out, do. That is pretty instructive.

    “We had the chance once to do what you suggest and split up into different regions, but we made the conscious decision to stay together, and fought a bloody civil war specifically to avoid becoming a collection of the small, clanish countries such as you fantasize about.”

    It isn’t a fantasy. There are lots of those countries. It is just an observation. It is just the way things worked out over time. FWIW I think the American Civil War was another testament to our placing value on people instead of just economics. Plenty of other countries like China and India still have slavery. Gee, I wonder who those slaves are? Hmm, oppressed ethnic minorities? But hey, they are big and have nukes and can bully other countries and they are diverse, so who cares about human rights and human dignity?

    “So don’t tell me how unnatural it is for us to be the way we are. It may be difficult to meld diverse cultures together. But it can be, and is being, done.”

    With force? With oppression and slavery? No thanks, I don’t relish the opportunity to exploit and abuse folks. Neither do I want to be abused.

    I am not actually sure the point of your comment. I have already said that I welcome screened immigrants. I don’t think we should tolerate criminals entering illegally. My comments about small homogenous countries were only to point out that it is worthwhile examining those countries in order to compare and contrast social dynamics of homogenous and diverse countries, but the hue and cry and charges of a fantasy of creating such here emerges as a straw man nonetheless. Anthropologists study the dynamics of homogenous and diverse societies all the time as a means for understanding, not to argue that only one or the other is somehow better. It is interesting not controversial.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You just ignore the fact that (Norway) is a high trust society, like that is nothing.”

    “I never said it was nothing. It just isn’t what makes a country great.”

    Yes it is. Living in a country with low crime and high social cohesion and prosperity is the definition of a great country. A country where you can trust people and live together peacefully and walk the streets at night and let your kids play outside in the neighborhood. I remember those days. It was great.

    “In 1940 it took Germany 60 days to take the country away from those “high trust” people.”

    So the Nazis were great because they had a big powerful army and the Norwegians stink because they are a tiny nation?
    What is this? might makes right?

    “But don’t tell me that the Norwegians built their country themselves and nobody gave them anything. It took others to give them their entire country back to them.”

    Yes they did. They built their society themselves. The whole thing about being overrun by the Nazis is totally tangential. No tiny country could have defended itself against the Nazis. What a ridiculous criticism. Do you think the Nazi’s plan was to exterminate the Norwegians so they could have Norway or did they want the Norwegians themselves? What is the bigger prize Norway with the Norwegians or without them?

    “If nobody had done so, they wouldn’t have a country today at all. Once again, I don’t point this out to insult anybody. But people shouldn’t be insulted by facts. And a fundamental fact is that all the “high functioning” in the world is worthless without the ability and willingness to defend it.”

    High functioning is not worthless, rather it is prized. That is why the Egyptians and Babylonians used people like Joseph and Daniel as high level advisors/administrators. Romans did the same with the Greeks. So did others. Human capital is highly prized.

    The examples of China and India are appalling. The quality of life for the poor is heartbreaking. Neither China is nor India is a shining example of upholding human dignity. Their ability to oppress their people is creepy not admirable. The caste system in India? Talk about limited social mobility. Sheesh. Notice people who can get out, do. That is pretty instructive.

    “We had the chance once to do what you suggest and split up into different regions, but we made the conscious decision to stay together, and fought a bloody civil war specifically to avoid becoming a collection of the small, clanish countries such as you fantasize about.”

    It isn’t a fantasy. There are lots of those countries. It is just an observation. It is just the way things worked out over time. FWIW I think the American Civil War was another testament to our placing value on people instead of just economics. Plenty of other countries like China and India still have slavery. Gee, I wonder who those slaves are? Hmm, oppressed ethnic minorities? But hey, they are big and have nukes and can bully other countries and they are diverse, so who cares about human rights and human dignity?

    “So don’t tell me how unnatural it is for us to be the way we are. It may be difficult to meld diverse cultures together. But it can be, and is being, done.”

    With force? With oppression and slavery? No thanks, I don’t relish the opportunity to exploit and abuse folks. Neither do I want to be abused.

    I am not actually sure the point of your comment. I have already said that I welcome screened immigrants. I don’t think we should tolerate criminals entering illegally. My comments about small homogenous countries were only to point out that it is worthwhile examining those countries in order to compare and contrast social dynamics of homogenous and diverse countries, but the hue and cry and charges of a fantasy of creating such here emerges as a straw man nonetheless. Anthropologists study the dynamics of homogenous and diverse societies all the time as a means for understanding, not to argue that only one or the other is somehow better. It is interesting not controversial.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@249), I’m confused by your comment. Am I supposed to be “offended” or am I supposed to be “insulting”? Maybe both?

    Anyhow, I thought the tone of my comment here (@238) was pretty clear, given that I was obviously admitting my own guilt even as I made an observation. And even if my tone wasn’t clear there, I gave a less-sarcastic explanation in my reply to DonS (@242).

    I’m honestly not sure what you found “insulting” about my remark, either way — I mean, I could see you making a case for my remark being unwarranted, but “insulting”? And, of the people still conversing here, you appear to be the only one who feels insulted.

    Oh well. I don’t want to make this a conversation about me. I’ll make this my last reply.

    And Grace, while I resort to smileys if and when I have to, to really make my point, I’m not the biggest fan. Sorry. I try to make my meaning clear from words, since I like words, but I realize the difficulties in trying to read someone’s tone when you don’t know them personally or aren’t used to their style.

    Don’t think that doesn’t mean I know your secret techniques, though! :D :o 8O :? :x :| :!: :roll:

    ;)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@249), I’m confused by your comment. Am I supposed to be “offended” or am I supposed to be “insulting”? Maybe both?

    Anyhow, I thought the tone of my comment here (@238) was pretty clear, given that I was obviously admitting my own guilt even as I made an observation. And even if my tone wasn’t clear there, I gave a less-sarcastic explanation in my reply to DonS (@242).

    I’m honestly not sure what you found “insulting” about my remark, either way — I mean, I could see you making a case for my remark being unwarranted, but “insulting”? And, of the people still conversing here, you appear to be the only one who feels insulted.

    Oh well. I don’t want to make this a conversation about me. I’ll make this my last reply.

    And Grace, while I resort to smileys if and when I have to, to really make my point, I’m not the biggest fan. Sorry. I try to make my meaning clear from words, since I like words, but I realize the difficulties in trying to read someone’s tone when you don’t know them personally or aren’t used to their style.

    Don’t think that doesn’t mean I know your secret techniques, though! :D :o 8O :? :x :| :!: :roll:

    ;)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “One reason is that we have set up a house of cards, with Social Security and all of that. If we stop reproducing, the whole thing collapses”

    We are talking about human beings. Wanting more folks just so we can sponge off them in our old age doesn’t seem so ethical. Also why such high expenses for the elderly? Why can’t they live with their kids? Why do a couple of old people need a 4 bed 3 bath house? Meanwhile their kids struggle to pay taxes to support the old, even though they need their money for their own kids.
    I think we created a monster. Now it owns us.
    Social Security, another failed liberal idea.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “One reason is that we have set up a house of cards, with Social Security and all of that. If we stop reproducing, the whole thing collapses”

    We are talking about human beings. Wanting more folks just so we can sponge off them in our old age doesn’t seem so ethical. Also why such high expenses for the elderly? Why can’t they live with their kids? Why do a couple of old people need a 4 bed 3 bath house? Meanwhile their kids struggle to pay taxes to support the old, even though they need their money for their own kids.
    I think we created a monster. Now it owns us.
    Social Security, another failed liberal idea.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    SG (@249), I’m confused by your comment. Am I supposed to be “offended” or am I supposed to be “insulting”? Maybe both?

    My feelings were hurt. :-(

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    SG (@249), I’m confused by your comment. Am I supposed to be “offended” or am I supposed to be “insulting”? Maybe both?

    My feelings were hurt. :-(

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    tODD sounds too jolly @ 257. I bet he is drinking some wine, not just talking it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    tODD sounds too jolly @ 257. I bet he is drinking some wine, not just talking it.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Okay, I can’t very well make that (@257) my last reply if your feelings are still hurt. SG, it was not my intent to hurt your feelings — I believe I have already made my actual intent clear enough. I apologize for hurting your feelings.

    That said, I’m not actually sure why your feelings are hurt. Can you help me understand?

    And no, I have not had any wine tonight, though I have had a grand total of one bottle of beer. Not sure that contributed to any appearance of jolliness as much as, you know, my actually feeling somewhat jolly.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Okay, I can’t very well make that (@257) my last reply if your feelings are still hurt. SG, it was not my intent to hurt your feelings — I believe I have already made my actual intent clear enough. I apologize for hurting your feelings.

    That said, I’m not actually sure why your feelings are hurt. Can you help me understand?

    And no, I have not had any wine tonight, though I have had a grand total of one bottle of beer. Not sure that contributed to any appearance of jolliness as much as, you know, my actually feeling somewhat jolly.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Clearly you don’t see the point of my last comment. I’ll try to be more clear.

    You talk of the things you value. Internal safety, comfort, everybody you know being just like you. This is not the definition of a great country. This is the definition of a lazy, boring defenseless country. It sounds like a country that some other country is going to roll right over someday. And to top it off you find that Norway was in fact easily conquered by a terrible tyranny “tangential”? The fact that some better people had to come along and rescue them doesn’t make you think that something might have been wrong with Norway’s game plan.

    “No tiny country could have defended itself against the Nazis.”

    If that were true, then why live in a tiny country? Besides, it isn’t exactly true. Finnland was positioned between Germany and Russia. The Finns fought off Russia in 1939, and managed to remain independent from the Germans until they were defeated, and then managed to keeep the Russians out again in 1945. I can respect Finnland’s behavior during WWII.

    And Switzerland, another very successful integrated country (three separate ethnic groups and 3 languages spoken), managed to at least not be overrun. I’m not sure how they did it, but I suspect they bluffed the Germans into believing that other countries would be easier pickings.

    My points about China and India were not that these are great places to live (although both are improving). My first point is that your broad assertions that people from different ethnic backgrounds cannot successfully unite into one country are simply not based in fact. Almost all big countries have successfully united different ethnic or cultural groups into one country. China has done it at least partly by force, but China has a very long history of being a very large and diverse place. India originally did it by accident (being dominated by Great Britain), but for the last 65 years they have stuck together voluntarily for the sake of the combined strength the maintain by doing so. The Roman Empire stayed together for centuries all the while being diverse. Sometimes maintaining that unity required force, but most of the Empire wouldn’t have thrown away Roman civilization.

    Our own story is unique in that we have been founded on principles rather that ethnic purity. But even we have had to fight to preserve the union, and make it over in a better, freer, iteration. But the union could have disintegrated, and North America could have been just like Europe. Small, clannish countries scattered all across it.

    Like all countries, big diverse ones come and go. Sometimes the break apart because of internal tensions, as you suggest. But other times they hang together until they weaken for some other reason and succomb to an external threat. History simply does not supprot your thesis that different cultures cannot be successfully melded into a single large nation. I does happen.

    But a more important point is that any country that hopes to compete economically with China or India, or militarily keep them at bay, will have to be a similarly large, dynamic country. Right now the USA is the only one around with any hope of doing so. And this will require a substantial steady replacement of our young population. Since we don’t reproduce enough to do that ourselves we will have to assimilate people from other cultures. It can be done if we resolve to do it.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Clearly you don’t see the point of my last comment. I’ll try to be more clear.

    You talk of the things you value. Internal safety, comfort, everybody you know being just like you. This is not the definition of a great country. This is the definition of a lazy, boring defenseless country. It sounds like a country that some other country is going to roll right over someday. And to top it off you find that Norway was in fact easily conquered by a terrible tyranny “tangential”? The fact that some better people had to come along and rescue them doesn’t make you think that something might have been wrong with Norway’s game plan.

    “No tiny country could have defended itself against the Nazis.”

    If that were true, then why live in a tiny country? Besides, it isn’t exactly true. Finnland was positioned between Germany and Russia. The Finns fought off Russia in 1939, and managed to remain independent from the Germans until they were defeated, and then managed to keeep the Russians out again in 1945. I can respect Finnland’s behavior during WWII.

    And Switzerland, another very successful integrated country (three separate ethnic groups and 3 languages spoken), managed to at least not be overrun. I’m not sure how they did it, but I suspect they bluffed the Germans into believing that other countries would be easier pickings.

    My points about China and India were not that these are great places to live (although both are improving). My first point is that your broad assertions that people from different ethnic backgrounds cannot successfully unite into one country are simply not based in fact. Almost all big countries have successfully united different ethnic or cultural groups into one country. China has done it at least partly by force, but China has a very long history of being a very large and diverse place. India originally did it by accident (being dominated by Great Britain), but for the last 65 years they have stuck together voluntarily for the sake of the combined strength the maintain by doing so. The Roman Empire stayed together for centuries all the while being diverse. Sometimes maintaining that unity required force, but most of the Empire wouldn’t have thrown away Roman civilization.

    Our own story is unique in that we have been founded on principles rather that ethnic purity. But even we have had to fight to preserve the union, and make it over in a better, freer, iteration. But the union could have disintegrated, and North America could have been just like Europe. Small, clannish countries scattered all across it.

    Like all countries, big diverse ones come and go. Sometimes the break apart because of internal tensions, as you suggest. But other times they hang together until they weaken for some other reason and succomb to an external threat. History simply does not supprot your thesis that different cultures cannot be successfully melded into a single large nation. I does happen.

    But a more important point is that any country that hopes to compete economically with China or India, or militarily keep them at bay, will have to be a similarly large, dynamic country. Right now the USA is the only one around with any hope of doing so. And this will require a substantial steady replacement of our young population. Since we don’t reproduce enough to do that ourselves we will have to assimilate people from other cultures. It can be done if we resolve to do it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You talk of the things you value. Internal safety, comfort, everybody you know being just like you.”

    Honestly, don’t you value these things for yourself and your family? Don’t you want your family safe and comfortable? In fact don’t you spend most of your time earning a living to ensure both of those things? As for people being just like you, don’t you prefer folks that agree with you on things like work ethic, religion and values? Or do you hire a lazy incompetent secretary who steals from you? And have no problem with public schools that denigrate and challenge your religious beliefs to your children? Do you want Planned Parenthood teaching your daughters in sex ed in high school? Shared values matter. It costs a lot of money for extra security and private everything when you can’t trust other people.

    “This is not the definition of a great country.”

    Yes, it is. That is why folks leave other countries to go to countries that have all these things.

    “This is the definition of a lazy, boring defenseless country.”

    No, it isn’t. Norway, Singapore, Netherlands, Taiwan are not lazy or boring and they are wise enough to form alliances.

    I just don’t buy your argument for empire, or that the economic bottom line is more important than the quality of life for the citizens. I find it creepy to de facto create a pyramid country with us on the top and a bunch of caste like strata of different folks. If folks could integrate, that would be better, and you can ask fws about Brasil, but it is my understanding that it is much like Mexico and quite racially stratified. I’m sure it is a nice place in many ways, but that kind of division doesn’t seem so healthy or pleasant to me. I also think that when you set out to use people for your own benefit, it can blow up in your face. The US didn’t take the opportunity to take a stand against slavery at its founding and it created continued problems. Now some folks want to import wage slaves because they think that they can benefit, but I am skeptical.

    To me, it is like picking a stock. It just doesn’t meet my criteria for financial soundness.

    I saw the president[?] of Singapore laugh when someone asked him about our immigration issues. He felt that immigration was as good as the immigrants.

    Look, no one is arguing to end immigration. We just think it needs to be a rational policy and we need to control it carefully just like we did before. It is just a normal law and order issue.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You talk of the things you value. Internal safety, comfort, everybody you know being just like you.”

    Honestly, don’t you value these things for yourself and your family? Don’t you want your family safe and comfortable? In fact don’t you spend most of your time earning a living to ensure both of those things? As for people being just like you, don’t you prefer folks that agree with you on things like work ethic, religion and values? Or do you hire a lazy incompetent secretary who steals from you? And have no problem with public schools that denigrate and challenge your religious beliefs to your children? Do you want Planned Parenthood teaching your daughters in sex ed in high school? Shared values matter. It costs a lot of money for extra security and private everything when you can’t trust other people.

    “This is not the definition of a great country.”

    Yes, it is. That is why folks leave other countries to go to countries that have all these things.

    “This is the definition of a lazy, boring defenseless country.”

    No, it isn’t. Norway, Singapore, Netherlands, Taiwan are not lazy or boring and they are wise enough to form alliances.

    I just don’t buy your argument for empire, or that the economic bottom line is more important than the quality of life for the citizens. I find it creepy to de facto create a pyramid country with us on the top and a bunch of caste like strata of different folks. If folks could integrate, that would be better, and you can ask fws about Brasil, but it is my understanding that it is much like Mexico and quite racially stratified. I’m sure it is a nice place in many ways, but that kind of division doesn’t seem so healthy or pleasant to me. I also think that when you set out to use people for your own benefit, it can blow up in your face. The US didn’t take the opportunity to take a stand against slavery at its founding and it created continued problems. Now some folks want to import wage slaves because they think that they can benefit, but I am skeptical.

    To me, it is like picking a stock. It just doesn’t meet my criteria for financial soundness.

    I saw the president[?] of Singapore laugh when someone asked him about our immigration issues. He felt that immigration was as good as the immigrants.

    Look, no one is arguing to end immigration. We just think it needs to be a rational policy and we need to control it carefully just like we did before. It is just a normal law and order issue.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG, can you please email me at todd * toddstadler.com (where the * should be a @, and take out the spaces, of course)?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG, can you please email me at todd * toddstadler.com (where the * should be a @, and take out the spaces, of course)?

  • Grace

    Dear Mr. tODD

    I rarely use smiles, however within the last week it seemed like a good idea. Yes everyone knows what they are, ….. your display was so untODD – :)

  • Grace

    Dear Mr. tODD

    I rarely use smiles, however within the last week it seemed like a good idea. Yes everyone knows what they are, ….. your display was so untODD – :)

  • kerner

    “That’s why folks leave other countries and go to countries that have all these things.”

    Your ancestors didn’t. They left the comparitive safety and comfort and homogeneity of Europe to go to a wild country full of low functioning native tribes and a motley collection of white misfits. And they ended up building one of the greatest societies in history.

    But where is that spirit today? Not only do you not want to do anything like that yourself, you don’t want anybody else to get a chance to try to do it either. When I suggest that people like that are a possible benefit to our society today, you call me stupid and disgusting.

    You SAY that “they” only want our welfare benefits, not to work, but this is a gross generalization. The way to deal with this is to restrict access to welfare benefits. When maintaining a high level of functioning is the only way to survive and get ahead in this country, only those confident in their ability to function highly will take the chance.

    You also say that letting in these “low functioners” will only create a pyramidal society like there is in Brazil, but again you fail to take into account how hard it is to move up the pyramid in Brazil (and most countries other than the USA) than it is here. It may be hard to break into the ranks of the super-rich, but in America getting out of poverty and into the middle class is not that difficult if you are willing to work and get an ecucation. If we encourage immigration by people who are willing to do that, most of them will move up to a higher level of functioning.

    I DO, in fact want to be around people who share my work ethic, religion and values. A great many hispanics share my work ethic. But I have to say that there are a lot of Americans who don’t. The poor American underclass is obvious, but there are a lot of middle class white young people who seem pretty spoiled to me. Many of them seem to think they should start at the top, with everything handed to them, and not have to work to get there. Religiously, a lot of Mexicans are closer to me that a lot of Americans, and they are all far and away closer to me than Asians. As far as values go, like everybody else in the modern world, some people have them and some don’t, but I have not found hispanics to be disproportionately amoral when compared to other cultures.

    You say that you don’t want an empire, and I don’t either. But I DO want us to remain a free people, and not be conquered by somebody else’s empire. At a time when our potential and present enemies are numerous, determined, shrewd, agressive, and not afraid to die, to remain a free people we need to to be more numerous, determined, shrewd, agressive and not afraid to die.

    I realize that people who possess these character traits are potentially dangerous, but that doesn’t mean we don’t need them. All the other aspects of our culture are great things, but without characteristics such as these, they and we, will not survive.

  • kerner

    “That’s why folks leave other countries and go to countries that have all these things.”

    Your ancestors didn’t. They left the comparitive safety and comfort and homogeneity of Europe to go to a wild country full of low functioning native tribes and a motley collection of white misfits. And they ended up building one of the greatest societies in history.

    But where is that spirit today? Not only do you not want to do anything like that yourself, you don’t want anybody else to get a chance to try to do it either. When I suggest that people like that are a possible benefit to our society today, you call me stupid and disgusting.

    You SAY that “they” only want our welfare benefits, not to work, but this is a gross generalization. The way to deal with this is to restrict access to welfare benefits. When maintaining a high level of functioning is the only way to survive and get ahead in this country, only those confident in their ability to function highly will take the chance.

    You also say that letting in these “low functioners” will only create a pyramidal society like there is in Brazil, but again you fail to take into account how hard it is to move up the pyramid in Brazil (and most countries other than the USA) than it is here. It may be hard to break into the ranks of the super-rich, but in America getting out of poverty and into the middle class is not that difficult if you are willing to work and get an ecucation. If we encourage immigration by people who are willing to do that, most of them will move up to a higher level of functioning.

    I DO, in fact want to be around people who share my work ethic, religion and values. A great many hispanics share my work ethic. But I have to say that there are a lot of Americans who don’t. The poor American underclass is obvious, but there are a lot of middle class white young people who seem pretty spoiled to me. Many of them seem to think they should start at the top, with everything handed to them, and not have to work to get there. Religiously, a lot of Mexicans are closer to me that a lot of Americans, and they are all far and away closer to me than Asians. As far as values go, like everybody else in the modern world, some people have them and some don’t, but I have not found hispanics to be disproportionately amoral when compared to other cultures.

    You say that you don’t want an empire, and I don’t either. But I DO want us to remain a free people, and not be conquered by somebody else’s empire. At a time when our potential and present enemies are numerous, determined, shrewd, agressive, and not afraid to die, to remain a free people we need to to be more numerous, determined, shrewd, agressive and not afraid to die.

    I realize that people who possess these character traits are potentially dangerous, but that doesn’t mean we don’t need them. All the other aspects of our culture are great things, but without characteristics such as these, they and we, will not survive.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    This country is much different than it was 400 plus years ago, for that reason, comparing people coming from Europe to those below the southern border today is nonsensical.

    My ancestors, and countless others made their way through grueling winters, disease and hunger – they planted and survived by the grace of God – they didn’t come to this country to get a free ride, free education, health, etc., they came here for many different reasons – religious freedom for one. Those who come over the border from the south, for the past 40 years are looking for a free pass – I don’t expect you to understand this, because you don’t live here, and have made clear it was 30 years since you spent any time here, and that appeared to be in the military – The military being much different than the normal civilian areas.

    Wisconsin is a long way from the Mexican border – something you forget as you pound your keyboard.

    As you stated in post 185 – “I have been south of our southern border only once.” – I answered 185 —— from that experience having been there once, you have derived all your experience? – Kerner you never answer my question in 186 – - my response below:

    “Did the family you were helping…. help build the house? – sometimes they pitch in, and sometimes it is those from the states and young college kids who do all the work while others spend time watching.

    Churches need to TEACH those in the country you worked in to do the labor themselves. It’s the old “teach a man to fish and he will live” don’t just give him a fish!”

    Kerner did you read my post 251? Violence, incarceration, drugs, gangs have all increased. Amnesty was granted in 1986 – and then the tidal wave of new illegal aliens came over the border in droves – Those who received amnesty, then helped their relatives become the NEW ILLEGAL ALIENS – and the march continues. More amnesty? I certainly hope not. I don’t respect anyone who breaks out laws, and then argues for a free pass.

    Kerner – 266 – “I realize that people who possess these character traits are potentially dangerous, but that doesn’t mean we don’t need them. All the other aspects of our culture are great things, but without characteristics such as these, they and we, will not survive.”

    We need people who are “potentially dangerous” ? – That is a DANGEROUS concept, try selling that to those of us who live in the border states -

    Have you heard of all the marches and anger in Los Angeles? They (illegal aliens) are furious over Arizona’s law. Why would that be? They are DEMANDING to break the law, DEMANDING that we acquiesce to their unlawful DEMANDS. OUTLAWS, and you think it compares to mine and others ancestors who built this country?

  • Grace

    Kerner

    This country is much different than it was 400 plus years ago, for that reason, comparing people coming from Europe to those below the southern border today is nonsensical.

    My ancestors, and countless others made their way through grueling winters, disease and hunger – they planted and survived by the grace of God – they didn’t come to this country to get a free ride, free education, health, etc., they came here for many different reasons – religious freedom for one. Those who come over the border from the south, for the past 40 years are looking for a free pass – I don’t expect you to understand this, because you don’t live here, and have made clear it was 30 years since you spent any time here, and that appeared to be in the military – The military being much different than the normal civilian areas.

    Wisconsin is a long way from the Mexican border – something you forget as you pound your keyboard.

    As you stated in post 185 – “I have been south of our southern border only once.” – I answered 185 —— from that experience having been there once, you have derived all your experience? – Kerner you never answer my question in 186 – - my response below:

    “Did the family you were helping…. help build the house? – sometimes they pitch in, and sometimes it is those from the states and young college kids who do all the work while others spend time watching.

    Churches need to TEACH those in the country you worked in to do the labor themselves. It’s the old “teach a man to fish and he will live” don’t just give him a fish!”

    Kerner did you read my post 251? Violence, incarceration, drugs, gangs have all increased. Amnesty was granted in 1986 – and then the tidal wave of new illegal aliens came over the border in droves – Those who received amnesty, then helped their relatives become the NEW ILLEGAL ALIENS – and the march continues. More amnesty? I certainly hope not. I don’t respect anyone who breaks out laws, and then argues for a free pass.

    Kerner – 266 – “I realize that people who possess these character traits are potentially dangerous, but that doesn’t mean we don’t need them. All the other aspects of our culture are great things, but without characteristics such as these, they and we, will not survive.”

    We need people who are “potentially dangerous” ? – That is a DANGEROUS concept, try selling that to those of us who live in the border states -

    Have you heard of all the marches and anger in Los Angeles? They (illegal aliens) are furious over Arizona’s law. Why would that be? They are DEMANDING to break the law, DEMANDING that we acquiesce to their unlawful DEMANDS. OUTLAWS, and you think it compares to mine and others ancestors who built this country?


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