Revolt of the children

A 16-year-old boy in the Netherlands was arrested for bringing down the MasterCard and Visa websites in retaliation for their refusing to process payments for Wikileaks. More young hackers are promising more attacks.

In the meantime, British university students have been rioting in protest of that country’s new austerity program, which includes raising tuition rates to a fraction of what American students pay. The British students, notorious for their political apathy previously, are breaking windows, smashing shops, burning cars, and assaulting police officers. They even attacked Prince Charles and his wife as they were driving by, smashing a window in their car. See TUITION FEES VOTE PROTEST: Charles and Camilla’s car attacked as thousands of students descend on Parliament | Mail Online.

So will young people–unused to any kind of austerity, indignant at established authority,and able to use the internet really well–rise up and overthrow the adult world?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://acroamaticus.blogspot.com Pr Mark Henderson

    “So will young people–unused to any kind of austerity, indignant at established authority,and able to use the internet really well–rise up and overthrow the adult world?”

    Yes, I believe that is indeed their goal, Prof. Veith.

    Of course, they will not succeed, but the world will be different after this, mark my words. Few people seem to realise what Julian Assange is really trying to do by publishing the leaks he has obtained. He is not just trying to embarrass governments or cajole them into reforms, he is trying to bring them down. He ahs said as much publicly.

  • http://acroamaticus.blogspot.com Pr Mark Henderson

    “So will young people–unused to any kind of austerity, indignant at established authority,and able to use the internet really well–rise up and overthrow the adult world?”

    Yes, I believe that is indeed their goal, Prof. Veith.

    Of course, they will not succeed, but the world will be different after this, mark my words. Few people seem to realise what Julian Assange is really trying to do by publishing the leaks he has obtained. He is not just trying to embarrass governments or cajole them into reforms, he is trying to bring them down. He ahs said as much publicly.

  • Rich Shipe

    And don’t forget the heavy burdens that are coming in the future from Social Security and MediCare.

  • Rich Shipe

    And don’t forget the heavy burdens that are coming in the future from Social Security and MediCare.

  • Kirk

    Is this anything new, though? Dr. Veith, did your generation trust anyone over 30? It’s just kids these days.

  • Kirk

    Is this anything new, though? Dr. Veith, did your generation trust anyone over 30? It’s just kids these days.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    No, Kirk, and we still don’t. Especially after we passed 30.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    No, Kirk, and we still don’t. Especially after we passed 30.

  • trotk

    They will overthrow the adult world, as they grow up and the adults die.
    And then they will remake it, probably in more or less the same way their parents remade it a generation earlier. They will reject a few things their parents prized, exaggerate some that their parents tolerated, and revive a few from the generations prior to their parents, but overall, they will be like the generation before them.

  • trotk

    They will overthrow the adult world, as they grow up and the adults die.
    And then they will remake it, probably in more or less the same way their parents remade it a generation earlier. They will reject a few things their parents prized, exaggerate some that their parents tolerated, and revive a few from the generations prior to their parents, but overall, they will be like the generation before them.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    With regards to the British debacle, my thought is simply that the British should make sure that none of those rioting will ever pay university fees again, if you catch my drift.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    With regards to the British debacle, my thought is simply that the British should make sure that none of those rioting will ever pay university fees again, if you catch my drift.

  • Paul

    They already control or can control much more than the older generations think they do. Watch for vast, sweeping changes once the vast Baby Boomer generation (a general category meant to identify those currently 45-65) diminish sufficiently to no longer control their own future. Watch for the Social Security tax to drop from 6% to 4% which will only hasten the insolvency of the entitlement (they can call it whatever they want), giving them license to convert it into a safety net program for the very old or very disabled or very infirm. You’ll be amazed at the number of older people who won’t be able to afford a winter home or disabled people drawing SSI who will find a way to go back to work. Pensions for those who work and earn them will return while programs go away to include college as a right. Tolerance for individuals and beliefs will grow, but no tolerance for the intolerant behaviors of others.

    This generation has no memory of the Great Depression or the World Wars. They believe that life is what you make of it. Witness previous posts on education, marriage, and religion among this group which will be firmly in control in 10-15 years.

    The Baby Boomers have bankrupt the economy, the housing market, higher education, secondary education, unions, churches, marriage and family, society as a whole, and the future of this nation by their utopian, Star-Trek vision of peace through the equitable redistribution of resources and information. Oh, I could go on and on.

    I don’t know European youth, but I suspect that the rebuilding of Europe after WWII has put them a generation off from the Americans who came home to a robust society and economy. In America, it was the Baby Boom generation that was “unused to any kind of austerity” and “indignant at established authority.” In America, it is Generation X that is already seeing the burden of excess and a lack of discipline. It won’t be long until they can do something about it.

    So if you’re thinking about retiring early or buying that second home, I suggest you think again. Means testing will be applied to those already retired as soon as they are no longer able to maintain it by their votes. National health care will be little more than a major medical program. If you are able to work but don’t, then you can afford your own keep.

    So no, it’s not the younger generations in America which know no austerity and disparage the establishment. That was our parents. It is they who will have to learn about austerity and government. Baby Boomers should look at European Youth and see their own reflection.

  • Paul

    They already control or can control much more than the older generations think they do. Watch for vast, sweeping changes once the vast Baby Boomer generation (a general category meant to identify those currently 45-65) diminish sufficiently to no longer control their own future. Watch for the Social Security tax to drop from 6% to 4% which will only hasten the insolvency of the entitlement (they can call it whatever they want), giving them license to convert it into a safety net program for the very old or very disabled or very infirm. You’ll be amazed at the number of older people who won’t be able to afford a winter home or disabled people drawing SSI who will find a way to go back to work. Pensions for those who work and earn them will return while programs go away to include college as a right. Tolerance for individuals and beliefs will grow, but no tolerance for the intolerant behaviors of others.

    This generation has no memory of the Great Depression or the World Wars. They believe that life is what you make of it. Witness previous posts on education, marriage, and religion among this group which will be firmly in control in 10-15 years.

    The Baby Boomers have bankrupt the economy, the housing market, higher education, secondary education, unions, churches, marriage and family, society as a whole, and the future of this nation by their utopian, Star-Trek vision of peace through the equitable redistribution of resources and information. Oh, I could go on and on.

    I don’t know European youth, but I suspect that the rebuilding of Europe after WWII has put them a generation off from the Americans who came home to a robust society and economy. In America, it was the Baby Boom generation that was “unused to any kind of austerity” and “indignant at established authority.” In America, it is Generation X that is already seeing the burden of excess and a lack of discipline. It won’t be long until they can do something about it.

    So if you’re thinking about retiring early or buying that second home, I suggest you think again. Means testing will be applied to those already retired as soon as they are no longer able to maintain it by their votes. National health care will be little more than a major medical program. If you are able to work but don’t, then you can afford your own keep.

    So no, it’s not the younger generations in America which know no austerity and disparage the establishment. That was our parents. It is they who will have to learn about austerity and government. Baby Boomers should look at European Youth and see their own reflection.

  • Tom Hering

    Paul @ 7, pure nastiness. Are you Christian?

  • Tom Hering

    Paul @ 7, pure nastiness. Are you Christian?

  • Paul

    Tom: What’s unchristian about the post at 7? It’s an observation. The Baby Boomers were spoiled rotten. They’ve eaten up every sort of inheritance on themselves and wasted the legacy they received. The only legacy they leave behind is bankruptcy for all. Not only do many American Baby Boomers (not all, of course) live in luxury on what they received, but now they steal from their children and grandchildren as they leave us nothing but debt and broken institutions. What’s unChristian about that observation? They’re a brood of vipers! They ought to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. They lounge on their ivory beds. They know no limits to their egos driving $45,000 SUVs to Arizona (who needs four wheel drive if you’re leaving the North for Arizona?) while their children and grandchildren and now great grandchildren pay their debts, health care, social security, etc. A home on the Lake in the North and one on a golf course in Arizona?

    Pure nastiness? No. Reality. The America of Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama is a laughing stock! Unemployment. Outrageous national debt. Banking, housing, education, local government, wherever you look they’ve created a shambles out of what they received because they knew no limit to their appetites. Marriage and family is utterly destroyed. They did it and/or let it happen. They encourage the legalization of drugs, no fault divorce, promiscuity, pornography. They emptied the churches and left them desolate, taking their children to soccer instead of Sunday School. They left us no “right” no “good” only subjectivism and narcissism. This is the age of Caligula and Nero; of Babylon and Nineveh. Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand!

    Pure nastiness? Who has aborted their unborn children and left those that were born to be raised by others? Who drove away the teachers and muzzled the preachers? Who bombs far off countries with drones while sipping their latte? Those who oppose God’s Word now are the priests and bishops. Pure nastiness? Who dropped their pants in the oval office?

    Who will get their summer homes and winter homes and SUVs? An inheritance? My share of the national debt is several times more than I or my children will receive from those who go before us. Neither history nor they’re children will treat them kindly when they are no longer in control.

  • Paul

    Tom: What’s unchristian about the post at 7? It’s an observation. The Baby Boomers were spoiled rotten. They’ve eaten up every sort of inheritance on themselves and wasted the legacy they received. The only legacy they leave behind is bankruptcy for all. Not only do many American Baby Boomers (not all, of course) live in luxury on what they received, but now they steal from their children and grandchildren as they leave us nothing but debt and broken institutions. What’s unChristian about that observation? They’re a brood of vipers! They ought to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. They lounge on their ivory beds. They know no limits to their egos driving $45,000 SUVs to Arizona (who needs four wheel drive if you’re leaving the North for Arizona?) while their children and grandchildren and now great grandchildren pay their debts, health care, social security, etc. A home on the Lake in the North and one on a golf course in Arizona?

    Pure nastiness? No. Reality. The America of Bush, Clinton, Bush, and Obama is a laughing stock! Unemployment. Outrageous national debt. Banking, housing, education, local government, wherever you look they’ve created a shambles out of what they received because they knew no limit to their appetites. Marriage and family is utterly destroyed. They did it and/or let it happen. They encourage the legalization of drugs, no fault divorce, promiscuity, pornography. They emptied the churches and left them desolate, taking their children to soccer instead of Sunday School. They left us no “right” no “good” only subjectivism and narcissism. This is the age of Caligula and Nero; of Babylon and Nineveh. Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand!

    Pure nastiness? Who has aborted their unborn children and left those that were born to be raised by others? Who drove away the teachers and muzzled the preachers? Who bombs far off countries with drones while sipping their latte? Those who oppose God’s Word now are the priests and bishops. Pure nastiness? Who dropped their pants in the oval office?

    Who will get their summer homes and winter homes and SUVs? An inheritance? My share of the national debt is several times more than I or my children will receive from those who go before us. Neither history nor they’re children will treat them kindly when they are no longer in control.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: Really? From my vantage point, Paul seems to be about right.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: Really? From my vantage point, Paul seems to be about right.

  • Tom Hering

    Paul, I assure you, you will be judged just as harshly by those who come after you. It might be time, now, to love as you will want to be loved – someday.

  • Tom Hering

    Paul, I assure you, you will be judged just as harshly by those who come after you. It might be time, now, to love as you will want to be loved – someday.

  • Tom Hering

    Cincinnatus, I’m not saying Paul is wrong in his analysis.

  • Tom Hering

    Cincinnatus, I’m not saying Paul is wrong in his analysis.

  • Tom Hering

    It’s also odd to hear a young conservative resenting others’ riches, and their enjoyment of their riches. ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    It’s also odd to hear a young conservative resenting others’ riches, and their enjoyment of their riches. ;-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “So will young people–unused to any kind of austerity, indignant at established authority,and able to use the internet really well–rise up and overthrow the adult world?”

    I sure hope so. Their parents pay taxes that are squandered on baloney social programs instead of investing in their own children.

    I am with the hackers on this one. Bring’em down. The elites don’t want to pay for what they should. Meanwhile they pay for what they shouldn’t. The older generation kills the young with abortion and doesn’t even want to pay to educate the best and brightest so they can tax them to death in their old age.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “So will young people–unused to any kind of austerity, indignant at established authority,and able to use the internet really well–rise up and overthrow the adult world?”

    I sure hope so. Their parents pay taxes that are squandered on baloney social programs instead of investing in their own children.

    I am with the hackers on this one. Bring’em down. The elites don’t want to pay for what they should. Meanwhile they pay for what they shouldn’t. The older generation kills the young with abortion and doesn’t even want to pay to educate the best and brightest so they can tax them to death in their old age.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The Baby Boomers have bankrupt the economy, the housing market, higher education, secondary education, unions, churches, marriage and family, society as a whole, and the future of this nation by their utopian, Star-Trek vision of peace through the equitable redistribution of resources and information. Oh, I could go on and on.”

    The irony is that the social system the boomers and their parents exploited was devised and implemented by the parents and grandparents of the boomers. Those folks had an average total fertility rate of just over 3 kids per woman. That level could actually support the system they created. However, the boomers didn’t play along. Native-born women born in 1945 were the first in US history to have a TFR below the replacement level and the rates go down from there (for native born women). Currently the boomers also have the highest labor participation rate, which is pretty interesting, too.

    So we have the richest old people in history. Can it last? I am going with no.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The Baby Boomers have bankrupt the economy, the housing market, higher education, secondary education, unions, churches, marriage and family, society as a whole, and the future of this nation by their utopian, Star-Trek vision of peace through the equitable redistribution of resources and information. Oh, I could go on and on.”

    The irony is that the social system the boomers and their parents exploited was devised and implemented by the parents and grandparents of the boomers. Those folks had an average total fertility rate of just over 3 kids per woman. That level could actually support the system they created. However, the boomers didn’t play along. Native-born women born in 1945 were the first in US history to have a TFR below the replacement level and the rates go down from there (for native born women). Currently the boomers also have the highest labor participation rate, which is pretty interesting, too.

    So we have the richest old people in history. Can it last? I am going with no.

  • Paul

    Tom @7 “Paul, I assure you, you will be judged just as harshly by those who come after you. It might be time, now, to love as you will want to be loved – someday.”

    Love covers a multitude of sins, but there are still consequences. Love does not bring the end of the Law but its fulfillment. Jesus did not come to remove the tiniest bit of the Law, but to fulfill it. I will indeed be judged harshly which I why I need a Savior. But it is not love to ignore the law or to wink at the wages of sin, which is death. Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord – to meditate on His Word and to take it to heart. So I do not seek to deny my sin or sin all the more so that grace may about. Instead, I seek to live in awe of my Savior’s love and to have the same mind which He had – to care for others more than myself, not so that I can be saved, but because I have been saved and now so that others might be saved (or, as Handel might say, ‘saved-ed’).

    This is “The Law and the Prophets” — that men loved themselves more than they feared God. “You fool! Tonight your soul is required of you. Now who will receive all that you have built up for yourself?” Who is the rich man in the story and who is Lazarus? Who has killed the poor man’s ewe lamb and feasted on it while his own flocks and herds graze?

    Now I’m just starting to sound bitter. But hey, if the shoe fits. . .

  • Paul

    Tom @7 “Paul, I assure you, you will be judged just as harshly by those who come after you. It might be time, now, to love as you will want to be loved – someday.”

    Love covers a multitude of sins, but there are still consequences. Love does not bring the end of the Law but its fulfillment. Jesus did not come to remove the tiniest bit of the Law, but to fulfill it. I will indeed be judged harshly which I why I need a Savior. But it is not love to ignore the law or to wink at the wages of sin, which is death. Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord – to meditate on His Word and to take it to heart. So I do not seek to deny my sin or sin all the more so that grace may about. Instead, I seek to live in awe of my Savior’s love and to have the same mind which He had – to care for others more than myself, not so that I can be saved, but because I have been saved and now so that others might be saved (or, as Handel might say, ‘saved-ed’).

    This is “The Law and the Prophets” — that men loved themselves more than they feared God. “You fool! Tonight your soul is required of you. Now who will receive all that you have built up for yourself?” Who is the rich man in the story and who is Lazarus? Who has killed the poor man’s ewe lamb and feasted on it while his own flocks and herds graze?

    Now I’m just starting to sound bitter. But hey, if the shoe fits. . .

  • Mike Baker

    Rev Fisk had a good point about this on Issues, Etc a while back.

    He talked about how every generation passes down traditions and ideas to the next. The Baby Boomers rejected authority… and passed on nothing to Generation X but rebellion. Now we are in a very odd situation:

    The rebels of the 60s and 70s are now “the man” that they hated so much and are in the positions of authority that they said were invald for so much of their lives. At the same time, the generations that followed have a tradition of rebellion which we must rebel against. We have to be anti-anti-establishment and anti-anti-authority. No wonder we are so confused, cynical, and violent. :P

    The safe, hedonistic, and opulent western society does not help this situation.

  • Mike Baker

    Rev Fisk had a good point about this on Issues, Etc a while back.

    He talked about how every generation passes down traditions and ideas to the next. The Baby Boomers rejected authority… and passed on nothing to Generation X but rebellion. Now we are in a very odd situation:

    The rebels of the 60s and 70s are now “the man” that they hated so much and are in the positions of authority that they said were invald for so much of their lives. At the same time, the generations that followed have a tradition of rebellion which we must rebel against. We have to be anti-anti-establishment and anti-anti-authority. No wonder we are so confused, cynical, and violent. :P

    The safe, hedonistic, and opulent western society does not help this situation.

  • Paul

    By the way. I’m a pastor in the LCMS. I’m 45 with just about 20 years of experience. The lay leaders in the congregations I have served are now over 60 or under 40 – very few in between. Same for the financial contributors. After 15 years of mortgage payments, my house is worth only slightly more than I still owe on it. My car is 8 years old and my wife’s is 7. Our parents winter in southern states and summer on the water in northern states. I pay just over $15,000 per year for family health coverage and a little more than that on self employment tax (FICA x 2 which is Social Security and Medicare tax). That’s more than $30,000 per year for my family’s health care and towards that of my parents. We contribute 12% of our combined gross incomes, about $12,000 to the church. Meanwhile, my father makes in retirement more than the average US household and still draws Medicare to boot. I know whereof I speak.

  • Paul

    By the way. I’m a pastor in the LCMS. I’m 45 with just about 20 years of experience. The lay leaders in the congregations I have served are now over 60 or under 40 – very few in between. Same for the financial contributors. After 15 years of mortgage payments, my house is worth only slightly more than I still owe on it. My car is 8 years old and my wife’s is 7. Our parents winter in southern states and summer on the water in northern states. I pay just over $15,000 per year for family health coverage and a little more than that on self employment tax (FICA x 2 which is Social Security and Medicare tax). That’s more than $30,000 per year for my family’s health care and towards that of my parents. We contribute 12% of our combined gross incomes, about $12,000 to the church. Meanwhile, my father makes in retirement more than the average US household and still draws Medicare to boot. I know whereof I speak.

  • DonS

    Tom @ 8 & 11: I’m not surprised to find out that Paul is not only a Christian, but also almost a baby boomer (I’m guessing he missed it by one year). His predictions are harsh, but he’s stating fact regarding the baby boomer generation (and our parents) who have spent our children into oblivion, and show no signs of changing our ways. In fact, we’re demanding even more. Why shouldn’t they resent it, at least in human terms?

    Paul, well said. If enough people get out there and speak truth about our entitlement insanity maybe we will all start to wake up.

  • DonS

    Tom @ 8 & 11: I’m not surprised to find out that Paul is not only a Christian, but also almost a baby boomer (I’m guessing he missed it by one year). His predictions are harsh, but he’s stating fact regarding the baby boomer generation (and our parents) who have spent our children into oblivion, and show no signs of changing our ways. In fact, we’re demanding even more. Why shouldn’t they resent it, at least in human terms?

    Paul, well said. If enough people get out there and speak truth about our entitlement insanity maybe we will all start to wake up.

  • Tom Hering

    “… and passed on nothing to Generation X but rebellion.”

    Or, a society very different from the oppressively conformist society that preceded the Boomers. A society where it’s possible to pursue the kind of life that fits you, rather than the kind of life you’re supposed to fit into. Those born post-1960s have no idea how narrow the vision of life in America used to be, or how much of their personal freedom they owe to the Boomers.

  • Tom Hering

    “… and passed on nothing to Generation X but rebellion.”

    Or, a society very different from the oppressively conformist society that preceded the Boomers. A society where it’s possible to pursue the kind of life that fits you, rather than the kind of life you’re supposed to fit into. Those born post-1960s have no idea how narrow the vision of life in America used to be, or how much of their personal freedom they owe to the Boomers.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: You’ve provided an almost word-for-word summary of Plato’s “democratic soul,” that which is but one-step removed from tyranny. We are rather kaleidoscopic souls, no?

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: You’ve provided an almost word-for-word summary of Plato’s “democratic soul,” that which is but one-step removed from tyranny. We are rather kaleidoscopic souls, no?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or, a society very different from the oppressively conformist society that preceded the Boomers.”

    What? This society is oppressively conformist. The difference is whose values are oppressing whom. It used to be that dysfunctional behaviors were punished. Now it is good behavior that is taxed and derided.

    “A society where it’s possible to pursue the kind of life that fits you, rather than the kind of life you’re supposed to fit into.”

    Bull. Women are pressured and cajoled to work outside the home, put our kids in daycare and have smaller families. Some groups even demand that teens be forced to listen to contraception extolled as virtue as part of education in public schools. However, these same teens aren’t told how their breast cancer risk skyrockets from delayed childbearing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or, a society very different from the oppressively conformist society that preceded the Boomers.”

    What? This society is oppressively conformist. The difference is whose values are oppressing whom. It used to be that dysfunctional behaviors were punished. Now it is good behavior that is taxed and derided.

    “A society where it’s possible to pursue the kind of life that fits you, rather than the kind of life you’re supposed to fit into.”

    Bull. Women are pressured and cajoled to work outside the home, put our kids in daycare and have smaller families. Some groups even demand that teens be forced to listen to contraception extolled as virtue as part of education in public schools. However, these same teens aren’t told how their breast cancer risk skyrockets from delayed childbearing.

  • Paul

    Tom: “…rather than the kind of life you’re supposed to fit into.”

    What’s wrong with expecting people to make marital vows and keep them? What’s wrong with expecting people to raise the children they procreate and teach them? What’s wrong with asking adults to contribute more to society than they take from it?

  • Paul

    Tom: “…rather than the kind of life you’re supposed to fit into.”

    What’s wrong with expecting people to make marital vows and keep them? What’s wrong with expecting people to raise the children they procreate and teach them? What’s wrong with asking adults to contribute more to society than they take from it?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    We’re living in a Children of the Corn world.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    We’re living in a Children of the Corn world.

  • Tom Hering

    sg, would you enjoy going back to a society where a woman’s opinion wasn’t worth the two seconds it took to dismiss it?

    I thought not. :-)

  • Tom Hering

    sg, would you enjoy going back to a society where a woman’s opinion wasn’t worth the two seconds it took to dismiss it?

    I thought not. :-)

  • Tom Hering

    Paul @ 23, you’re confusing goodness and conformity. I was speaking of the latter.

  • Tom Hering

    Paul @ 23, you’re confusing goodness and conformity. I was speaking of the latter.

  • Cincinnatus

    Nice red herring, Tom. You suggest that we have to accept all the evils the Baby Boomers have engendered and accept our entire modern predicament because the alternative is that women wouldn’t be permitted to participate in public discourse. Yeah, I’m just going to point out that you’re wrong.

  • Cincinnatus

    Nice red herring, Tom. You suggest that we have to accept all the evils the Baby Boomers have engendered and accept our entire modern predicament because the alternative is that women wouldn’t be permitted to participate in public discourse. Yeah, I’m just going to point out that you’re wrong.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those born post-1960s have no idea how narrow the vision of life in America used to be, or how much of their personal freedom they owe to the Boomers.”

    Like what? Most of the stuff which you likely reference was the work of the generation before the boomers. The very first boomers weren’t even voters until 1966, let alone leaders. What we reference is their behavior in response to the new rules. The boomers didn’t make the new rules. Their behavior just illustrates the results of the new incentives.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those born post-1960s have no idea how narrow the vision of life in America used to be, or how much of their personal freedom they owe to the Boomers.”

    Like what? Most of the stuff which you likely reference was the work of the generation before the boomers. The very first boomers weren’t even voters until 1966, let alone leaders. What we reference is their behavior in response to the new rules. The boomers didn’t make the new rules. Their behavior just illustrates the results of the new incentives.

  • Tom Hering

    “You suggest that we have to accept all the evils the Baby Boomers have engendered and accept our entire modern predicament because the alternative is that women wouldn’t be permitted to participate in public discourse.”

    I’ve suggested no such thing.

  • Tom Hering

    “You suggest that we have to accept all the evils the Baby Boomers have engendered and accept our entire modern predicament because the alternative is that women wouldn’t be permitted to participate in public discourse.”

    I’ve suggested no such thing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg, would you enjoy going back to a society where a woman’s opinion wasn’t worth the two seconds it took to dismiss it?”

    You haven’t demonstrated that is even the case.

    It is not like the US was Saudi Arabia before the 60′s. US women have been the most educated women in the world since we first landed here in the 1600′s in Massachusetts Bay. The notion that women were oppressed is mostly bull. With sky high illegitimacy, kids are the new oppressed group. And it is not just a few more kids, more like half born illegitimate.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg, would you enjoy going back to a society where a woman’s opinion wasn’t worth the two seconds it took to dismiss it?”

    You haven’t demonstrated that is even the case.

    It is not like the US was Saudi Arabia before the 60′s. US women have been the most educated women in the world since we first landed here in the 1600′s in Massachusetts Bay. The notion that women were oppressed is mostly bull. With sky high illegitimacy, kids are the new oppressed group. And it is not just a few more kids, more like half born illegitimate.

  • Tom Hering

    “The notion that women were oppressed is mostly bull.”

    I didn’t say women were oppressed in the way they are in some Islamic societies. I said conformity was oppressive, which is a different issue. But as for women, they weren’t taken seriously in any role outside the home. The testimonies of women from that era are almost unanimous on this point.

    It was the Boomer generation of women that opened up life for women. Which had both good and bad results. And as I pointed out before, I don’t reject the analysis that says there have been bad results. I’m only arguing that there have been many good results as well, and these are owed to that generation.

  • Tom Hering

    “The notion that women were oppressed is mostly bull.”

    I didn’t say women were oppressed in the way they are in some Islamic societies. I said conformity was oppressive, which is a different issue. But as for women, they weren’t taken seriously in any role outside the home. The testimonies of women from that era are almost unanimous on this point.

    It was the Boomer generation of women that opened up life for women. Which had both good and bad results. And as I pointed out before, I don’t reject the analysis that says there have been bad results. I’m only arguing that there have been many good results as well, and these are owed to that generation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But as for women, they weren’t taken seriously in any role outside the home. The testimonies of women from that era are almost unanimous on this point.”

    100% of the disgruntled were disgruntled. How can anyone disagree with such an observation?

    Marie Curie anyone?

    Look, competent women who really wanted to do stuff were limited in their access and ability to do it, although not totally because history does describe females in all disciplines, albeit very few in some of them. However, such persons are such a small fraction of all women that to say women in general were oppressed is a gross overstatement. This is why it is so hard to get competent women in so many fields. Even those with talent aren’t that interested. They are more interested in their families and have to be offered high salaries, prestige and convenience in order to be enticed out of the home.

    This goes back to pushing all women into careers just so the few can have the opportunity to do what they want. The majority of women(and men) lose more than they gain in the new normal of trying to make women equal to men in function.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But as for women, they weren’t taken seriously in any role outside the home. The testimonies of women from that era are almost unanimous on this point.”

    100% of the disgruntled were disgruntled. How can anyone disagree with such an observation?

    Marie Curie anyone?

    Look, competent women who really wanted to do stuff were limited in their access and ability to do it, although not totally because history does describe females in all disciplines, albeit very few in some of them. However, such persons are such a small fraction of all women that to say women in general were oppressed is a gross overstatement. This is why it is so hard to get competent women in so many fields. Even those with talent aren’t that interested. They are more interested in their families and have to be offered high salaries, prestige and convenience in order to be enticed out of the home.

    This goes back to pushing all women into careers just so the few can have the opportunity to do what they want. The majority of women(and men) lose more than they gain in the new normal of trying to make women equal to men in function.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m only arguing that there have been many good results as well, and these are owed to that generation.”

    Fine, but they aren’t owed to the boomers. Any legislation you can point to was authored by those in the preceding generation. The boomers were affected by it. The were indoctrinated in it. They bought it. They didn’t create it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m only arguing that there have been many good results as well, and these are owed to that generation.”

    Fine, but they aren’t owed to the boomers. Any legislation you can point to was authored by those in the preceding generation. The boomers were affected by it. The were indoctrinated in it. They bought it. They didn’t create it.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    America had lady governors and female members of Congress long before the 60′s feminists began to burn their bras.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    America had lady governors and female members of Congress long before the 60′s feminists began to burn their bras.

  • Dust

    Actually would not be surprised if in 10 years or so when the young adults become older adults and in charge of the machinery of government, and confronted with a possibly even worse economy, and so faced with tough budget considerations between their needs and the needs of their parents and the older adult generations, that they put their interests first. Could be they would slash the health care coverage of the seniors, could be they raid their retirement investment funds, could be they confiscate land and other valuable possessions of those that have them, in order to distribute that wealth among the more deserving and needful, and from their perspective, that of course would be them and their generation? Who could stop them? They have the keys to the government car and the muscle and force of the law and police and courts and even write the laws themselves to make all of this legal, how convenient!

    Now am not saying this will happen, but that it is easy to conceive that it could…it’s at least plausible, no? Has something like this ever occurred before? Romans? Greeks? French? Russians? Any history folk might know the answer?

    Now my purpose is not to criticize or condemn or pass judgment on any of this, but rather to say, even if it wouldn’t happen, the idea that it might, and the fear of possibility that it might, just means here is a great story line for a spooky and dark kind of novel. Just wish could do it myself, but will be happy with my 50% royalties for coming up with the idea, if anyone wants to run with it!

    Seriously, any writers out there (Dr. Veith and his buddy Lars?) here is a great opportunity to wake everyone up via a story that could be told as fiction. Often times, a good story changes more hearts and minds than 100o times as many serious political and intellectual books and lectures? So you would be doing everyone a service and hopefully making some nice cash….maybe some movie rights and the mega bucks that follow too? Now, don’t forget me :)

    There are two possible endings for such a tale. A dark, forboding and depressing ending, something along the lines of 1984, just off the top of my tiny head. But my preference (as your agent) would be to encourage you to go for the heroic and fairytale ending, where some super duper fellow or lady, finds a way to change the hearts and minds of the younger generation and show them a better way to solve their problems. A way that is motivated by love and concern for everyone, especially the weak and innocent and needy, and by following that path, they can achieve not only their material needs but more importantly, grow stronger in heart and spirit, and learn the value of the golden rule, or something along those lines.

    After all, the kind of people that would actually proceed down the dark path in the beginning of this story, clearly must have hearts of stone and total absorption in their own needs without one ounce of concern for others. That important glue that holds societies together from one generation to another must have spoiled and weakened, in order for that generation to get to this point, and the hero would be the one to reintroduce those time-proven values back into that fallen and selfish group? But how?

    Well, if it sounds like a good book (and movie) to me, that just probably means someone has already written it….well ok then, good bye :)

  • Dust

    Actually would not be surprised if in 10 years or so when the young adults become older adults and in charge of the machinery of government, and confronted with a possibly even worse economy, and so faced with tough budget considerations between their needs and the needs of their parents and the older adult generations, that they put their interests first. Could be they would slash the health care coverage of the seniors, could be they raid their retirement investment funds, could be they confiscate land and other valuable possessions of those that have them, in order to distribute that wealth among the more deserving and needful, and from their perspective, that of course would be them and their generation? Who could stop them? They have the keys to the government car and the muscle and force of the law and police and courts and even write the laws themselves to make all of this legal, how convenient!

    Now am not saying this will happen, but that it is easy to conceive that it could…it’s at least plausible, no? Has something like this ever occurred before? Romans? Greeks? French? Russians? Any history folk might know the answer?

    Now my purpose is not to criticize or condemn or pass judgment on any of this, but rather to say, even if it wouldn’t happen, the idea that it might, and the fear of possibility that it might, just means here is a great story line for a spooky and dark kind of novel. Just wish could do it myself, but will be happy with my 50% royalties for coming up with the idea, if anyone wants to run with it!

    Seriously, any writers out there (Dr. Veith and his buddy Lars?) here is a great opportunity to wake everyone up via a story that could be told as fiction. Often times, a good story changes more hearts and minds than 100o times as many serious political and intellectual books and lectures? So you would be doing everyone a service and hopefully making some nice cash….maybe some movie rights and the mega bucks that follow too? Now, don’t forget me :)

    There are two possible endings for such a tale. A dark, forboding and depressing ending, something along the lines of 1984, just off the top of my tiny head. But my preference (as your agent) would be to encourage you to go for the heroic and fairytale ending, where some super duper fellow or lady, finds a way to change the hearts and minds of the younger generation and show them a better way to solve their problems. A way that is motivated by love and concern for everyone, especially the weak and innocent and needy, and by following that path, they can achieve not only their material needs but more importantly, grow stronger in heart and spirit, and learn the value of the golden rule, or something along those lines.

    After all, the kind of people that would actually proceed down the dark path in the beginning of this story, clearly must have hearts of stone and total absorption in their own needs without one ounce of concern for others. That important glue that holds societies together from one generation to another must have spoiled and weakened, in order for that generation to get to this point, and the hero would be the one to reintroduce those time-proven values back into that fallen and selfish group? But how?

    Well, if it sounds like a good book (and movie) to me, that just probably means someone has already written it….well ok then, good bye :)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “After all, the kind of people that would actually proceed down the dark path in the beginning of this story, clearly must have hearts of stone and total absorption in their own needs without one ounce of concern for others.”

    History is full of such examples.

    “That important glue that holds societies together from one generation to another must have spoiled and weakened, in order for that generation to get to this point, and the hero would be the one to reintroduce those time-proven values back into that fallen and selfish group? But how?”

    The majority of the passing generation is a different ethnic group from the up and coming groups. So, there is one thing that doesn’t tie them together, especially since the up and coming groups have greater ethnic identity/solidarity than the passing generation.

    You have to even question using the word “generation” in such a context because the following majority of the younger group doesn’t proceed from the majority of the older group but from different groups. More accurate to call them birth cohorts. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “After all, the kind of people that would actually proceed down the dark path in the beginning of this story, clearly must have hearts of stone and total absorption in their own needs without one ounce of concern for others.”

    History is full of such examples.

    “That important glue that holds societies together from one generation to another must have spoiled and weakened, in order for that generation to get to this point, and the hero would be the one to reintroduce those time-proven values back into that fallen and selfish group? But how?”

    The majority of the passing generation is a different ethnic group from the up and coming groups. So, there is one thing that doesn’t tie them together, especially since the up and coming groups have greater ethnic identity/solidarity than the passing generation.

    You have to even question using the word “generation” in such a context because the following majority of the younger group doesn’t proceed from the majority of the older group but from different groups. More accurate to call them birth cohorts. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Bra burning did some good.”

    define “good”

    More female leaders does not necessarily equal good. Women are not better, so having more of them participate doesn’t necessarily equal good. Have things gotten better as a result of what most female congress reps have voted for? If they didn’t generally vote for good policies then there is no basis for calling their participation good.

    If all women did was just vote preferences for themselves, how is that good? If they voted for laws that undermine a functioning society, how is that good?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Bra burning did some good.”

    define “good”

    More female leaders does not necessarily equal good. Women are not better, so having more of them participate doesn’t necessarily equal good. Have things gotten better as a result of what most female congress reps have voted for? If they didn’t generally vote for good policies then there is no basis for calling their participation good.

    If all women did was just vote preferences for themselves, how is that good? If they voted for laws that undermine a functioning society, how is that good?

  • Tom Hering

    sg @ 32 and SAL @ 34, you’re trying to make your case by pointing out the exceptions, which I think makes my case for me. Thanks. :-)

  • Tom Hering

    sg @ 32 and SAL @ 34, you’re trying to make your case by pointing out the exceptions, which I think makes my case for me. Thanks. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sg @ 32 and SAL @ 34, you’re trying to make your case by pointing out the exceptions, which I think makes my case for me.

    Just to clarify, what is your point? (Not meant sarcastic, but it looks that way as I read it on the page, sorry.)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sg @ 32 and SAL @ 34, you’re trying to make your case by pointing out the exceptions, which I think makes my case for me.

    Just to clarify, what is your point? (Not meant sarcastic, but it looks that way as I read it on the page, sorry.)

  • Tom Hering

    Thanks for asking, sg. (It didn’t sound sarcastic at all.) My point is that the Boomers did at least as much good as bad. Their influence on society wasn’t entirely evil – a popular notion among culture warriors, and the impression Paul and Cincinnatus gave at the beginning of this thread.

  • Tom Hering

    Thanks for asking, sg. (It didn’t sound sarcastic at all.) My point is that the Boomers did at least as much good as bad. Their influence on society wasn’t entirely evil – a popular notion among culture warriors, and the impression Paul and Cincinnatus gave at the beginning of this thread.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: False. The Boomers have “not done at least as much good as bad.” The groundwork for gender equality in the workforce you cite was laid by the previous generation (the so-called “Greatest Generation”). Name one single good thing that the Boomers have done and for which they can legitimately claim fully responsibility.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: False. The Boomers have “not done at least as much good as bad.” The groundwork for gender equality in the workforce you cite was laid by the previous generation (the so-called “Greatest Generation”). Name one single good thing that the Boomers have done and for which they can legitimately claim fully responsibility.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “My point is that the Boomers did at least as much good as bad.”

    Okay, but without even agreeing on the whole good/bad thing, I question whether what they are credited with is actually stuff they didn’t do. If the very first group of boomer voters voted in 1966, then they could not have been responsible for all the things folks blame/credit them for because they weren’t influential until like the 80′s, which is long after the changes. Do you get what I am saying?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “My point is that the Boomers did at least as much good as bad.”

    Okay, but without even agreeing on the whole good/bad thing, I question whether what they are credited with is actually stuff they didn’t do. If the very first group of boomer voters voted in 1966, then they could not have been responsible for all the things folks blame/credit them for because they weren’t influential until like the 80′s, which is long after the changes. Do you get what I am saying?

  • Tom Hering

    See what I mean, folks? ;-)

    But you asked for a single example, Cincinnatus, so I’ll give it to you: they gave birth to and raised Generation X, which on the whole is a very good generation that gives me hope for the future of our society.

  • Tom Hering

    See what I mean, folks? ;-)

    But you asked for a single example, Cincinnatus, so I’ll give it to you: they gave birth to and raised Generation X, which on the whole is a very good generation that gives me hope for the future of our society.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Generation X”

    Ha! I am gen X. What am I supposed to say? We stink?

    Anyway, that is a pretty agile move there, Tom.

    Flattery aside, I am not sure that gen X is that great and it seems you agree that the boomers were not behind the social changes. Rather they were just heirs. The poster children for the policies.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Generation X”

    Ha! I am gen X. What am I supposed to say? We stink?

    Anyway, that is a pretty agile move there, Tom.

    Flattery aside, I am not sure that gen X is that great and it seems you agree that the boomers were not behind the social changes. Rather they were just heirs. The poster children for the policies.

  • Tom Hering

    “… that is a pretty agile move there, Tom.”

    Thanks for questioning my sincerity, sg.

  • Tom Hering

    “… that is a pretty agile move there, Tom.”

    Thanks for questioning my sincerity, sg.

  • Cincinnatus

    Personally, I tend to think that Generation X sucks as well, though in different ways than their parents.

  • Cincinnatus

    Personally, I tend to think that Generation X sucks as well, though in different ways than their parents.

  • Cincinnatus

    Either way, I hardly think that changes the fact that, politically and socially speaking, the Baby Boomers have effectively ruined the world. I say that with only the tiniest hint of exaggeration.

  • Cincinnatus

    Either way, I hardly think that changes the fact that, politically and socially speaking, the Baby Boomers have effectively ruined the world. I say that with only the tiniest hint of exaggeration.

  • Tom Hering

    “… it seems you agree that the boomers were not behind the social changes.” – sg @ 46.

    I give an example and it proves I don’t agree with my own point? Right. Anyways, what can one generation do that’s more important than creating a new generation that upholds the ideals of the society they’re both part of?

  • Tom Hering

    “… it seems you agree that the boomers were not behind the social changes.” – sg @ 46.

    I give an example and it proves I don’t agree with my own point? Right. Anyways, what can one generation do that’s more important than creating a new generation that upholds the ideals of the society they’re both part of?

  • Tom Hering

    Cincinnatus, can I move to the little island utopia where you’re both the king and the entire population?

  • Tom Hering

    Cincinnatus, can I move to the little island utopia where you’re both the king and the entire population?

  • Cincinnatus

    What does that even mean? Because I detect general problems within certain roughly-defined generations that I believe to be destructive to social flourishing in the United States, I am somehow a selfish utopian with no grasp upon reality?

    Look, I don’t care how many bras they burned, but the Baby Boomers are, as a whole, selfish. They are responsible for our social dissolution (massive divorce rates, rebellious children, etc.), for our deficits, debts, and entitlement crisis. They pioneered and perfected the lifestyle of easy credit and materialism that currently threatens our entire economic structure. They have repudiated the principles and “values” necessary to sustain a cohesive national culture. They have expanded and gloried in the American empire. Who has elected the dimwits (who are themselves Boomers) who are plunging the ship of state into a proverbial iceberg? I could go on with more or less specificity as to the problems they have engendered, but the bottom line is that, despite all these things, they, collectively speaking, express absolutely no desire to ameliorate the situation such that their children and grandchildren might actually live to witness a viable and secure future.

    Generation X is, to my eyes, amoral, materialist, and boring. I don’t particularly see in them the future salvation of our country, but I could be wrong, and, since the point here is the massive Boomer generation, it’s irrelevant.

  • Cincinnatus

    What does that even mean? Because I detect general problems within certain roughly-defined generations that I believe to be destructive to social flourishing in the United States, I am somehow a selfish utopian with no grasp upon reality?

    Look, I don’t care how many bras they burned, but the Baby Boomers are, as a whole, selfish. They are responsible for our social dissolution (massive divorce rates, rebellious children, etc.), for our deficits, debts, and entitlement crisis. They pioneered and perfected the lifestyle of easy credit and materialism that currently threatens our entire economic structure. They have repudiated the principles and “values” necessary to sustain a cohesive national culture. They have expanded and gloried in the American empire. Who has elected the dimwits (who are themselves Boomers) who are plunging the ship of state into a proverbial iceberg? I could go on with more or less specificity as to the problems they have engendered, but the bottom line is that, despite all these things, they, collectively speaking, express absolutely no desire to ameliorate the situation such that their children and grandchildren might actually live to witness a viable and secure future.

    Generation X is, to my eyes, amoral, materialist, and boring. I don’t particularly see in them the future salvation of our country, but I could be wrong, and, since the point here is the massive Boomer generation, it’s irrelevant.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Anyways, what can one generation do that’s more important than creating a new generation that upholds the ideals of the society they’re both part of?”

    Uh, okay, but the boomers didn’t do that. First, they barely created the next generation because they didn’t even have enough kids to replace themselves. And second, it isn’t clear that gen X upholds what they believe.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Anyways, what can one generation do that’s more important than creating a new generation that upholds the ideals of the society they’re both part of?”

    Uh, okay, but the boomers didn’t do that. First, they barely created the next generation because they didn’t even have enough kids to replace themselves. And second, it isn’t clear that gen X upholds what they believe.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Generation X is, to my eyes, amoral, materialist, and boring. I don’t particularly see in them the future salvation of our country,”

    There aren’t enough of them, even if they were disposed to be the “future salvation” of our country. They lack hegemony and they don’t even value it. Both boomers and gen X are more like suicidal than salvific.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Generation X is, to my eyes, amoral, materialist, and boring. I don’t particularly see in them the future salvation of our country,”

    There aren’t enough of them, even if they were disposed to be the “future salvation” of our country. They lack hegemony and they don’t even value it. Both boomers and gen X are more like suicidal than salvific.

  • Tom Hering

    To recap the opposing argument, then: the Greatest Generation is responsible for everything good, the Boomers are responsible for everything bad, and Generation X is “meh.” Have I got it right?

  • Tom Hering

    To recap the opposing argument, then: the Greatest Generation is responsible for everything good, the Boomers are responsible for everything bad, and Generation X is “meh.” Have I got it right?

  • Cincinnatus

    What, now you’re claiming that it’s inappropriate to make generalizations now? So this whole discussion is moot? Or are you arguing that the Boomers have not, as a whole, done a great deal of damage to our country? I can’t decide which alternative is more absurd.

    (and no, the “Greatest Generation” is not actually the greatest in my opinion)

  • Cincinnatus

    What, now you’re claiming that it’s inappropriate to make generalizations now? So this whole discussion is moot? Or are you arguing that the Boomers have not, as a whole, done a great deal of damage to our country? I can’t decide which alternative is more absurd.

    (and no, the “Greatest Generation” is not actually the greatest in my opinion)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “To recap the opposing argument, then: the Greatest Generation is responsible for everything good, the Boomers are responsible for everything bad, and Generation X is “meh.” Have I got it right?”

    Uh, I would phrase it differently. Surprising, I know.

    The GG had good intentions. The boomers rendered unintended consequences and gen X is reeling in the aftermath.

    We need to keep in mind that the folks who envisioned and promoted these ideas were a tiny fraction of the people. The groups themselves were involved but weren’t the architects. Let’s assume folks meant well even if their ideas weren’t so great. We need the confidence to correct the errors of the past without vilifying people, however misguided.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “To recap the opposing argument, then: the Greatest Generation is responsible for everything good, the Boomers are responsible for everything bad, and Generation X is “meh.” Have I got it right?”

    Uh, I would phrase it differently. Surprising, I know.

    The GG had good intentions. The boomers rendered unintended consequences and gen X is reeling in the aftermath.

    We need to keep in mind that the folks who envisioned and promoted these ideas were a tiny fraction of the people. The groups themselves were involved but weren’t the architects. Let’s assume folks meant well even if their ideas weren’t so great. We need the confidence to correct the errors of the past without vilifying people, however misguided.

  • Tom Hering

    “… to correct the errors of the past without vilifying people …”

    I’m with you all the way on that one, sg. :-)

  • Tom Hering

    “… to correct the errors of the past without vilifying people …”

    I’m with you all the way on that one, sg. :-)

  • Porcell

    Paul’s generation has every right to be disaffected with the mess that the Baby Boomers are leaving behind morally and economically. The decline of both moral and mortgage standards is essentially what was behind the recent economic meltdown.

    Meanwhile the Baby Boomers are about to retire and will try to finance their retirement on the backs of the younger generation. This will lead to a fierce and ugly struggle that the young people deserve to win and probably will win given their political savvy.

    Paul is a Lutheran pastor with a gift for understanding hard realities and talking straight about them. He apparently knows that the Social Security Fund will go bankrupt in a few years and that his generation will need to fend for themselves. It is very unlikely that his generation will go along with the greatest Ponzi scheme in world history, namely Social Security and MediCare. His generation, also, has a great spokesman, Paul Ryan.

    Tom ludicrously accuses Pastor Paul of being unChristian. He is in fact a rather wise pastor. I’d like to hear more of him on this blog.

  • Porcell

    Paul’s generation has every right to be disaffected with the mess that the Baby Boomers are leaving behind morally and economically. The decline of both moral and mortgage standards is essentially what was behind the recent economic meltdown.

    Meanwhile the Baby Boomers are about to retire and will try to finance their retirement on the backs of the younger generation. This will lead to a fierce and ugly struggle that the young people deserve to win and probably will win given their political savvy.

    Paul is a Lutheran pastor with a gift for understanding hard realities and talking straight about them. He apparently knows that the Social Security Fund will go bankrupt in a few years and that his generation will need to fend for themselves. It is very unlikely that his generation will go along with the greatest Ponzi scheme in world history, namely Social Security and MediCare. His generation, also, has a great spokesman, Paul Ryan.

    Tom ludicrously accuses Pastor Paul of being unChristian. He is in fact a rather wise pastor. I’d like to hear more of him on this blog.

  • Tom Hering

    Porcell ludicrously accuses Tom of accusing Paul of being unchristian, when all Tom did was ask this fellow – unknown to Tom – if he was a Christian. Because his judgment on Boomers seemed most uncharitable. Of course, Tom doesn’t need to ask Porcell the same question. And he’ll let Porcell decide what Tom means by that. (Because Tom likes to prick the pompous.)

  • Tom Hering

    Porcell ludicrously accuses Tom of accusing Paul of being unchristian, when all Tom did was ask this fellow – unknown to Tom – if he was a Christian. Because his judgment on Boomers seemed most uncharitable. Of course, Tom doesn’t need to ask Porcell the same question. And he’ll let Porcell decide what Tom means by that. (Because Tom likes to prick the pompous.)

  • http://acroamaticus.blogspot.com Acroamaticus

    Well, that was a massive deviation off-topic. Fair enough if you want to talk about the collective sin of the baby-boomers, but I suggest the target of the teenager arrested in the Netherlands for hacking Mastercard and Visa was not his grandparents’ conspicuous use of their credit cards but Western society itself as presently organised, which he likely views as a massive, authoritarian conspiracy against the oppressed masses, thwarting their self-realization. This is the stated view of his ideological mentor, Julian Assange, the anarchist who masquerades as a journalist and whistleblower.

    In that view the Dutch teenager is not at all unlike his grandparents’ generation, the baby-boomers, only his outlook is more Baader-Meinhof than Woodstock, and he strikes with a keyboard rather than a machine gun. His goal is to induce collapse in the communications systems that make our present way of life – such as it is – possible, either by directly cutting communication between the entities of the corporate world and government or by so clogging their communications sytems (‘blinding’ and ‘throttling’ I believe the methods are called in hacker jargon), that a state of stupefaction and paralysis is induced and the whole system, i.e. Western government, is able to be brought down.

    The protesters in the streets of Whitehall were merely a less sophisticated, more symbolic, version of the same, except that, as with all mass demonstrations, it is likely there were many “useful idiots” caught up in it, unwittingly being manipulated by much more sinister forces.

    I normally abstain from comment on politics, but I regard this business as an attack on governance itself, and therefore an instance of rebellion against God. This is clearly about much more than social security entitlements, folks.

  • http://acroamaticus.blogspot.com Acroamaticus

    Well, that was a massive deviation off-topic. Fair enough if you want to talk about the collective sin of the baby-boomers, but I suggest the target of the teenager arrested in the Netherlands for hacking Mastercard and Visa was not his grandparents’ conspicuous use of their credit cards but Western society itself as presently organised, which he likely views as a massive, authoritarian conspiracy against the oppressed masses, thwarting their self-realization. This is the stated view of his ideological mentor, Julian Assange, the anarchist who masquerades as a journalist and whistleblower.

    In that view the Dutch teenager is not at all unlike his grandparents’ generation, the baby-boomers, only his outlook is more Baader-Meinhof than Woodstock, and he strikes with a keyboard rather than a machine gun. His goal is to induce collapse in the communications systems that make our present way of life – such as it is – possible, either by directly cutting communication between the entities of the corporate world and government or by so clogging their communications sytems (‘blinding’ and ‘throttling’ I believe the methods are called in hacker jargon), that a state of stupefaction and paralysis is induced and the whole system, i.e. Western government, is able to be brought down.

    The protesters in the streets of Whitehall were merely a less sophisticated, more symbolic, version of the same, except that, as with all mass demonstrations, it is likely there were many “useful idiots” caught up in it, unwittingly being manipulated by much more sinister forces.

    I normally abstain from comment on politics, but I regard this business as an attack on governance itself, and therefore an instance of rebellion against God. This is clearly about much more than social security entitlements, folks.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Todd accuses Tom of abusing the third person.

    And who is the third person? It’s not you.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Todd accuses Tom of abusing the third person.

    And who is the third person? It’s not you.

  • Tom Hering

    Will the third person, having suffered abuse, be spending the night in a crisis shelter of the mind?

  • Tom Hering

    Will the third person, having suffered abuse, be spending the night in a crisis shelter of the mind?

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    Anarchists have always been a serious threat to society.

    They don’t seek to reform society but to destroy it. Fascists, Communists and Liberals can all pursue their Utopian goals while leaving some order in place after they’re gone. A successful anarchism leaves nothing behind but chaos.

    I suspect that modern society has become so fragile and atomized that a wave of anarchists may just be able to bring some of the teetering civilizations crashing down.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    Anarchists have always been a serious threat to society.

    They don’t seek to reform society but to destroy it. Fascists, Communists and Liberals can all pursue their Utopian goals while leaving some order in place after they’re gone. A successful anarchism leaves nothing behind but chaos.

    I suspect that modern society has become so fragile and atomized that a wave of anarchists may just be able to bring some of the teetering civilizations crashing down.

  • Tom Hering

    “… Fascists, Communists and Liberals …”

    Will it be fair, now, for me to speak of Nazis and Conservatives?

  • Tom Hering

    “… Fascists, Communists and Liberals …”

    Will it be fair, now, for me to speak of Nazis and Conservatives?

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #65 In the American meaning of Conservative it would be fair as American Conservatives hold to the Liberal Utopian premises of the Enlightenment.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #65 In the American meaning of Conservative it would be fair as American Conservatives hold to the Liberal Utopian premises of the Enlightenment.

  • Grace

    People my parents age, WORKED, …. yes a strange language for everyone who complains they don’t have a job. They had learned how tough it was, they didn’t complain, but were grateful for what they had. They knew the importance of education, but most of all, they understood that God was their refuge, their hope, and through faith in Him was the most important thing in their lives.

    Crisis centers are indeed needful today – do you know why? – because people have not learned to control themselves, be it sexually, financially, morally or to care for their children, raising them to understand responsibility, that will serve them well in the years to come. They are spiritually comatose, they don’t want to hear about Christ, they want a great job with benefits, a spiffy place to live, and an SUV. They have no idea how they might pay for all of it….. Oh yes, their employer will most likely be the one. Drugs, sex, pornography, excess drinking have all left there mark,…. and that mark spells CRISIS CENTERS. If any of you think Crisis centers will fill the void, fix the problem you need to re-evaluate the problem.

    I called today, wanting to help those in need, those who truly needed help with rent, etc., ….. I had called earlier in the week for information, giving a dollar amount of what we wanted to contribute – without giving the amount, I can tell you it wasn’t small. Never received a phone call or email. When I called today, I was told that they were going to give toys to children, (if you were giving make sure they are unwrapped) however if the gift was to a teen, they were going to give out $50.00 gift certificates to use at Target…….. My reply was, “I would write such a large check, so kids can buy junk at Target” …. that would mean cell phones, CD’s, junk jewelry, punk clothes, etc., The defense was, “well some of these kids come from hard backgrounds” – that’s the excuse folks – those who come from tough backgrounds don’t know better, …. so what better way to help them, but continue…… just keep giving!

    In essence, it means; give, … it’s the best way to help, we can’t help how they spend the money, we just give them the ‘gift cards’ so they can decide how to spend it. .. I’m not in that camp, either those who are in charge of distribution are knowledgeable as to how needs are met, or they throw money out the window which they didn’t earn. It’s easy to give away money you haven’t earned, anyone can do it! If gifts are NOT DIRECTED TO THE NEEDS, PROBLEMS, then ALL ELSE FAILS. Anyone who is in need of a gift, (be it Christmas or otherwise) and has no idea how to use it, because he/she has not been taught ….. equals a gift that is squandered because the recipient has no clue as to its value –

    OK… this should have been posted further up on the thread… however, this is MORAL POVERTY, this is what we are facing today –

    There are three generations

    Our parents – who dealt with the war and sacrifice.

    Baby boomers – for the most part, lost their moral compass.

    Generation X – spoiled by parents, school teachers, wimpy psychologists. and godless immoral imposters of the truth, willing to sell our youth to the devil.

    As Paul states, the ‘baby boomers’ were spoiled rotten –

    The baby boomers are not only spoiled rotten, their morals are in the dumpster, their moral compass is in the attic, and they have little use for the true Gospel, rather looking for slick pep talks on Sunday, and band/guitar/drum music to tie in to the night before, Saturday night – something like 7-11 – - – 7 verses repeated 11 times.

    Those of us, no matter what age, have been broken hearted over the current rage of hip Christian Sunday service. Maybe we should all look to the Word of God for guidance.

    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 2 Timothy 3

  • Grace

    People my parents age, WORKED, …. yes a strange language for everyone who complains they don’t have a job. They had learned how tough it was, they didn’t complain, but were grateful for what they had. They knew the importance of education, but most of all, they understood that God was their refuge, their hope, and through faith in Him was the most important thing in their lives.

    Crisis centers are indeed needful today – do you know why? – because people have not learned to control themselves, be it sexually, financially, morally or to care for their children, raising them to understand responsibility, that will serve them well in the years to come. They are spiritually comatose, they don’t want to hear about Christ, they want a great job with benefits, a spiffy place to live, and an SUV. They have no idea how they might pay for all of it….. Oh yes, their employer will most likely be the one. Drugs, sex, pornography, excess drinking have all left there mark,…. and that mark spells CRISIS CENTERS. If any of you think Crisis centers will fill the void, fix the problem you need to re-evaluate the problem.

    I called today, wanting to help those in need, those who truly needed help with rent, etc., ….. I had called earlier in the week for information, giving a dollar amount of what we wanted to contribute – without giving the amount, I can tell you it wasn’t small. Never received a phone call or email. When I called today, I was told that they were going to give toys to children, (if you were giving make sure they are unwrapped) however if the gift was to a teen, they were going to give out $50.00 gift certificates to use at Target…….. My reply was, “I would write such a large check, so kids can buy junk at Target” …. that would mean cell phones, CD’s, junk jewelry, punk clothes, etc., The defense was, “well some of these kids come from hard backgrounds” – that’s the excuse folks – those who come from tough backgrounds don’t know better, …. so what better way to help them, but continue…… just keep giving!

    In essence, it means; give, … it’s the best way to help, we can’t help how they spend the money, we just give them the ‘gift cards’ so they can decide how to spend it. .. I’m not in that camp, either those who are in charge of distribution are knowledgeable as to how needs are met, or they throw money out the window which they didn’t earn. It’s easy to give away money you haven’t earned, anyone can do it! If gifts are NOT DIRECTED TO THE NEEDS, PROBLEMS, then ALL ELSE FAILS. Anyone who is in need of a gift, (be it Christmas or otherwise) and has no idea how to use it, because he/she has not been taught ….. equals a gift that is squandered because the recipient has no clue as to its value –

    OK… this should have been posted further up on the thread… however, this is MORAL POVERTY, this is what we are facing today –

    There are three generations

    Our parents – who dealt with the war and sacrifice.

    Baby boomers – for the most part, lost their moral compass.

    Generation X – spoiled by parents, school teachers, wimpy psychologists. and godless immoral imposters of the truth, willing to sell our youth to the devil.

    As Paul states, the ‘baby boomers’ were spoiled rotten –

    The baby boomers are not only spoiled rotten, their morals are in the dumpster, their moral compass is in the attic, and they have little use for the true Gospel, rather looking for slick pep talks on Sunday, and band/guitar/drum music to tie in to the night before, Saturday night – something like 7-11 – - – 7 verses repeated 11 times.

    Those of us, no matter what age, have been broken hearted over the current rage of hip Christian Sunday service. Maybe we should all look to the Word of God for guidance.

    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 2 Timothy 3

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “In that view the Dutch teenager is not at all unlike his grandparents’ generation, the baby-boomers, only his outlook is more Baader-Meinhof than Woodstock, and he strikes with a keyboard rather than a machine gun.”

    The thing is a hacker is an able person. He has to have some ability just to be a hacker. So, yeah, he is sophisticated and like many before him, he follows in the tradition of being a very clever but oppressed guy. A person of his ability should be appreciated and exhorted to good behavior while also being groomed to be a productive citizen. There is no benefit to society to keeping able folks out of universities by raising their tuitions etc. Please remember that European Universities are competitive, you can’t just go because are a citizen. In the US we think we can educate anyone. It is not like that in Europe. I think that since this is a young man of only 16, he has been failed because he didn’t learn proper morals, but you have to admire his determination not to be a serf. I can’t help it. I like his cockiness. Bold and decisive however misguided. This is the problem Europe always has, their folks just aren’t that manageable. They have to have a stake in things or their innate rebellious streak comes out. The upstarts just used to come here. Now, they seem to be smelling the coffee of the hardening anti liberal elite who have established themselves as the new aristocracy and they are rebelling again. Maybe I read to much into it. Perhaps Nigel Farge does as well.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “In that view the Dutch teenager is not at all unlike his grandparents’ generation, the baby-boomers, only his outlook is more Baader-Meinhof than Woodstock, and he strikes with a keyboard rather than a machine gun.”

    The thing is a hacker is an able person. He has to have some ability just to be a hacker. So, yeah, he is sophisticated and like many before him, he follows in the tradition of being a very clever but oppressed guy. A person of his ability should be appreciated and exhorted to good behavior while also being groomed to be a productive citizen. There is no benefit to society to keeping able folks out of universities by raising their tuitions etc. Please remember that European Universities are competitive, you can’t just go because are a citizen. In the US we think we can educate anyone. It is not like that in Europe. I think that since this is a young man of only 16, he has been failed because he didn’t learn proper morals, but you have to admire his determination not to be a serf. I can’t help it. I like his cockiness. Bold and decisive however misguided. This is the problem Europe always has, their folks just aren’t that manageable. They have to have a stake in things or their innate rebellious streak comes out. The upstarts just used to come here. Now, they seem to be smelling the coffee of the hardening anti liberal elite who have established themselves as the new aristocracy and they are rebelling again. Maybe I read to much into it. Perhaps Nigel Farge does as well.

  • Rose

    College professors are overpaid in general.
    In the US, we should defund grants to social sciences.
    We also maintain the illusion that everyone can go to college. This undermines high schools. If tuition were doubled for ‘college’ courses in basic math, algebra and biology, high schoolers would soon pass the courses the first time the taxpayers paid for them. Whereas we now have community ‘college’ students, usually minorities, who are paid full tuition–and a living stipend!– to take these courses.
    Any ‘college’ teacher teaching these courses should have a student load of 150 and teach 5 hours/day.

  • Rose

    College professors are overpaid in general.
    In the US, we should defund grants to social sciences.
    We also maintain the illusion that everyone can go to college. This undermines high schools. If tuition were doubled for ‘college’ courses in basic math, algebra and biology, high schoolers would soon pass the courses the first time the taxpayers paid for them. Whereas we now have community ‘college’ students, usually minorities, who are paid full tuition–and a living stipend!– to take these courses.
    Any ‘college’ teacher teaching these courses should have a student load of 150 and teach 5 hours/day.

  • Cincinnatus

    Rose:

    1) College professors are emphatically not overpaid. In fact, given the “adjunct crisis” and the extraordinary level of education required for college professors, I would mark higher education (with the exception of its bureaucratic administration) as one of the most chronically underpaid fields.

    2) Why should we defund grants to the “social sciences”? Because none of it is important research? Because you don’t like it? Because in your fantasy it’s all liberal propaganda? That seems to be a rather random axe to grind.

    The rest of your comment I generally support, but the two points above strike a bit close to home, as I’m working to become one of those “overpaid” professors in a social scientific discipline.

  • Cincinnatus

    Rose:

    1) College professors are emphatically not overpaid. In fact, given the “adjunct crisis” and the extraordinary level of education required for college professors, I would mark higher education (with the exception of its bureaucratic administration) as one of the most chronically underpaid fields.

    2) Why should we defund grants to the “social sciences”? Because none of it is important research? Because you don’t like it? Because in your fantasy it’s all liberal propaganda? That seems to be a rather random axe to grind.

    The rest of your comment I generally support, but the two points above strike a bit close to home, as I’m working to become one of those “overpaid” professors in a social scientific discipline.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This undermines high schools. If tuition were doubled for ‘college’ courses in basic math, algebra and biology, high schoolers would soon pass the courses the first time the taxpayers paid for them.”

    No, they wouldn’t. The average student who takes remedial classes never graduates. They can’t do the work, which is why we need more guys teaching industrial/vocational ed for folks who can be productive but are not academically inclined. That way they can be earning a living sooner. This would be especially good for these folks as they tend to start their families sooner as well. They need jobs, not algebra and English classes that they can’t pass anyway.

    Anyway, college profs don’t seem too overpaid to me. Of course our friends who are professors are in engineering and come out of industry to teach the latest stuff. There are some perks for being a prof and some opportunities for research, but they aren’t in it for the money.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This undermines high schools. If tuition were doubled for ‘college’ courses in basic math, algebra and biology, high schoolers would soon pass the courses the first time the taxpayers paid for them.”

    No, they wouldn’t. The average student who takes remedial classes never graduates. They can’t do the work, which is why we need more guys teaching industrial/vocational ed for folks who can be productive but are not academically inclined. That way they can be earning a living sooner. This would be especially good for these folks as they tend to start their families sooner as well. They need jobs, not algebra and English classes that they can’t pass anyway.

    Anyway, college profs don’t seem too overpaid to me. Of course our friends who are professors are in engineering and come out of industry to teach the latest stuff. There are some perks for being a prof and some opportunities for research, but they aren’t in it for the money.

  • helen

    They can’t do the work, which is why we need more guys teaching industrial/vocational ed for folks who can be productive but are not academically inclined.

    Where are these industrial/vocational ed kids going to work? Most of the manufacturing jobs have been sent overseas, so a few can make more profit while people who could do the work here are under/un employed.

    My sons’ shop teacher got sent anyone who was incompetent/disruptive/bored in the classroom, (in addition to those who were really interested).
    He once said, “I can do better work, too, with better students.” And he could; both my boys went on to other professions but did wood working as a hobby later.

  • helen

    They can’t do the work, which is why we need more guys teaching industrial/vocational ed for folks who can be productive but are not academically inclined.

    Where are these industrial/vocational ed kids going to work? Most of the manufacturing jobs have been sent overseas, so a few can make more profit while people who could do the work here are under/un employed.

    My sons’ shop teacher got sent anyone who was incompetent/disruptive/bored in the classroom, (in addition to those who were really interested).
    He once said, “I can do better work, too, with better students.” And he could; both my boys went on to other professions but did wood working as a hobby later.

  • helen

    Rose,
    What is your education and experience? As a matter of curiosity…

    Cincinnatus,
    Please explain your reference to the “adjunct crisis”. The only ‘crisis’ I can think of is that adjuncts and teaching assistants are the sacrificial victims to the state defunding of its universities. Tenure protects the few, (and their salaries, somewhat, although I think everyone here is supposed to be “frozen” this year). Most of the interaction with students has been done by TA’s and adjunct instructors.
    [Our Concordias spin that out almost indefinitely
    to avoid paying a living wage. ]

  • helen

    Rose,
    What is your education and experience? As a matter of curiosity…

    Cincinnatus,
    Please explain your reference to the “adjunct crisis”. The only ‘crisis’ I can think of is that adjuncts and teaching assistants are the sacrificial victims to the state defunding of its universities. Tenure protects the few, (and their salaries, somewhat, although I think everyone here is supposed to be “frozen” this year). Most of the interaction with students has been done by TA’s and adjunct instructors.
    [Our Concordias spin that out almost indefinitely
    to avoid paying a living wage. ]


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