»

The Christmas story in Revelation

[It's still Christmas. . . .]

Ray Hartwig, who holds the office of the Secretary of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, draws attention to a Christmas account in the Bible that gets hardly any notice.  It’s in the Book of Revelation:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.  (Revelation 12:1-6)

So what do you make of this?  The child is pretty obviously  Christ.  The woman is often interpreted as the Church, but the Church does not bring forth Christ, but the reverse.  Besides, the Church is His bride, not His mother.  Others say the woman is Israel, which is a possibility.  Others say she is the Virgin Mary, which seems most likely.  What does this account teach us about the meaning of Christmas?

UPDATE:  I had always heard that the veneration of the Virgin Mary was a displacement of pagan goddess worship, with one evidence being that in Roman Catholic iconography, the depictions of Mary as the Queen of Heaven showed her wearing a crown of twelve stars and standing on the moon.  Supposedly, this was how Diana the moon goddess was depicted.  But this text, with Roman Catholics do ascribe to Mary, shows that the imagery is Biblical.

And yet the text is also problematic to Roman Catholic Mariology. The woman is “crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.”  But according to  Roman Catholicism, Mary was blessed with an immaculate conception, so that she did not inherit original sin.  Thus, she was spared Eve’s curse of enduring pain in bearing children.  And, indeed, this is how Roman Catholic accounts depict the birth of Christ.

I suppose the best interpretation is that the woman represents “God’s people”–both in the sense of Israel and the Church as the new Israel–which is what the Lutheran Study Bible says, but that, as Al Colver adds in Carl’s link,  both are represented in the historical Virgin Mary (who does bear the curse of the Fall, so that Christ can fully bear humanity’s Original Sin so as to atone for it).

If I don’t have the Roman Catholic position right, I’m open to correction.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Tom Hering

    In the comments section of his post, Dr. Hartwig explains how the woman is the Church:

    “The woman is best understood to represent the Church of all ages, from which came the Messiah, born of Mary. Her crown’s twelve stars, which tell of the beauty and honor which God has given to His people, bring to mind the 12 tribes of Israel looking backward in time and the 12 apostles looking forward–the Church of all ages.”

    Perhaps the woman being clothed with the sun is the Church being clothed with Jesus Christ (both He and the Church are the light of the world). And perhaps standing on the moon is standing on the Old Testament, which reflects the light of the New Testament, the way the moon reflects the sun.

  • Tom Hering

    In the comments section of his post, Dr. Hartwig explains how the woman is the Church:

    “The woman is best understood to represent the Church of all ages, from which came the Messiah, born of Mary. Her crown’s twelve stars, which tell of the beauty and honor which God has given to His people, bring to mind the 12 tribes of Israel looking backward in time and the 12 apostles looking forward–the Church of all ages.”

    Perhaps the woman being clothed with the sun is the Church being clothed with Jesus Christ (both He and the Church are the light of the world). And perhaps standing on the moon is standing on the Old Testament, which reflects the light of the New Testament, the way the moon reflects the sun.

  • John C

    Taken out of the context of the time it was written, perhaps the vision has lost all meaning.

  • John C

    Taken out of the context of the time it was written, perhaps the vision has lost all meaning.

  • Carl Vehse

    Another discussion of St. John’s Revelation account is given in Dr. Albert Collver’s The ABC3s of Miscellany blog, “Merry Christmas from the St John the Evangelist — She Gave Birth to a Male Child.”

  • Carl Vehse

    Another discussion of St. John’s Revelation account is given in Dr. Albert Collver’s The ABC3s of Miscellany blog, “Merry Christmas from the St John the Evangelist — She Gave Birth to a Male Child.”

  • Tom Hering

    Revelation 12:17, “So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

    This indicates pretty strongly, I think, that the woman is “the Church of all ages.” (But thanks, Dr. Veith – though I don’t think the woman is Mary – for making me aware of this “third dimension” to the Christmas story.)

    A sermon on Revelation 12:1-16.

  • Tom Hering

    Revelation 12:17, “So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

    This indicates pretty strongly, I think, that the woman is “the Church of all ages.” (But thanks, Dr. Veith – though I don’t think the woman is Mary – for making me aware of this “third dimension” to the Christmas story.)

    A sermon on Revelation 12:1-16.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    From Dr. Brighton’s commentary,

    Mary, the mother of the Christ Child, is the model for the woman here in 12:1-2, for the woman, as does Mary, symbolizes and represents the church.

    Professor Brighton appears to take the position that it is both Mary and the Church in anticipation of the Messiah. I think he is right for he does take into account the obvious Nativity reference and prophetic references without losing sight of Christ as central to all Scripture.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    From Dr. Brighton’s commentary,

    Mary, the mother of the Christ Child, is the model for the woman here in 12:1-2, for the woman, as does Mary, symbolizes and represents the church.

    Professor Brighton appears to take the position that it is both Mary and the Church in anticipation of the Messiah. I think he is right for he does take into account the obvious Nativity reference and prophetic references without losing sight of Christ as central to all Scripture.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    But the Church does not give birth to Jesus, even figuratively. I haven’t heard how those who take that interpretation get around that.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    But the Church does not give birth to Jesus, even figuratively. I haven’t heard how those who take that interpretation get around that.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I don’t know if it will help but here is a fuller quote, if you have the Concordia Commentary series its on page 327. If you don’t, I believe Dr Brighton’s discourse on this passage is available on iTunesU.

    Mary, the mother of the Christ Child … The woman thus represents the faithful people of God who longed for the Messiah to come, and who by their faith can be said metaphorically to be the mother of the Child and thus to have given birth to him. After the birth and the ascension of the Child, the woman becomes and represents the church of the apostles. As Swete says, “Doubtless the Church of the Old Testament was the Mother of whom Christ came after the flesh. But…here no shapr dividing line is drawn between the Church of the Old Testament and the Christian Society.”
    The Church, symbolized by the woman, is adorned with the sun and crown of stars. This certainly illustrates how much God loves and honors his people. The fact that the moon is under her feet suggests that she is the dominant entity in his creation. Under God’s sovereignty all things and all creation are governed for the benefit of the church, to spread and increase the church, care for her, and protect her while in her earthly pilgrimage. For the church is the jewel, the apple of God’s eye.

    I think the interpretation of the church comes down to how do you define Israel. As Israel and the Church are one in Christ, I can see how the Church gave birth to the Christ, for Christ came out of Israel. Specifically as Christ is Israel reduced down to one man so to is the church reduced down to one person in Mary, as she is blessed amongst all women as the Church is blessed amongst all people.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I don’t know if it will help but here is a fuller quote, if you have the Concordia Commentary series its on page 327. If you don’t, I believe Dr Brighton’s discourse on this passage is available on iTunesU.

    Mary, the mother of the Christ Child … The woman thus represents the faithful people of God who longed for the Messiah to come, and who by their faith can be said metaphorically to be the mother of the Child and thus to have given birth to him. After the birth and the ascension of the Child, the woman becomes and represents the church of the apostles. As Swete says, “Doubtless the Church of the Old Testament was the Mother of whom Christ came after the flesh. But…here no shapr dividing line is drawn between the Church of the Old Testament and the Christian Society.”
    The Church, symbolized by the woman, is adorned with the sun and crown of stars. This certainly illustrates how much God loves and honors his people. The fact that the moon is under her feet suggests that she is the dominant entity in his creation. Under God’s sovereignty all things and all creation are governed for the benefit of the church, to spread and increase the church, care for her, and protect her while in her earthly pilgrimage. For the church is the jewel, the apple of God’s eye.

    I think the interpretation of the church comes down to how do you define Israel. As Israel and the Church are one in Christ, I can see how the Church gave birth to the Christ, for Christ came out of Israel. Specifically as Christ is Israel reduced down to one man so to is the church reduced down to one person in Mary, as she is blessed amongst all women as the Church is blessed amongst all people.

  • WebMonk

    Or, we could be over-analyzing it for intricate meaning. It could be a stylized depiction of the birth of Christ without too many direct descriptions being intended.

    Which is why it might be difficult to have every detail match up to any particular view of the woman – Mary, Israel, Church, whatever.

    But, that’s not nearly as much fun as trying to tease out further details.

  • WebMonk

    Or, we could be over-analyzing it for intricate meaning. It could be a stylized depiction of the birth of Christ without too many direct descriptions being intended.

    Which is why it might be difficult to have every detail match up to any particular view of the woman – Mary, Israel, Church, whatever.

    But, that’s not nearly as much fun as trying to tease out further details.

  • T Sherm

    It seems that it can be inferred from the Formula of Concord that it was at least held as a pious opinion by our Lutheran fathers that Mary was not subject Eve’s curse of pain in child-bearing.

    “On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, did not bear a mere man. But as the angel (Gabriel) testifies, she bore a man who is truly the Son of the most high God (Luke 1:35). He showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, because He was born of a virgin, without violating her virginity. Therefore, she is truly the mother of God and yet has remained a virgin.” (FC SD VIII.24)

    “Thus the one body of Christ has a threefold existence, or all three modes of being at a given place. First, the circumscribed corporeal mode of presence, as when He walked bodily on earth, when He occupied and yielded space according to His size….Secondly, the uncircumscribed, spiritual mode of presence according to which He neither occupies nor yields space but passes through everything created as He wills….He employed this mode of presence when He left the closed grave and came through closed doors, in the bread and wine in the Supper, and, as people believe, when He was born in His mother.” (FC SD VII.98-100).

  • T Sherm

    It seems that it can be inferred from the Formula of Concord that it was at least held as a pious opinion by our Lutheran fathers that Mary was not subject Eve’s curse of pain in child-bearing.

    “On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, did not bear a mere man. But as the angel (Gabriel) testifies, she bore a man who is truly the Son of the most high God (Luke 1:35). He showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, because He was born of a virgin, without violating her virginity. Therefore, she is truly the mother of God and yet has remained a virgin.” (FC SD VIII.24)

    “Thus the one body of Christ has a threefold existence, or all three modes of being at a given place. First, the circumscribed corporeal mode of presence, as when He walked bodily on earth, when He occupied and yielded space according to His size….Secondly, the uncircumscribed, spiritual mode of presence according to which He neither occupies nor yields space but passes through everything created as He wills….He employed this mode of presence when He left the closed grave and came through closed doors, in the bread and wine in the Supper, and, as people believe, when He was born in His mother.” (FC SD VII.98-100).

  • Joanne

    You remember that meeting where we all got together and voted on whether to admit The Book of Revelation to the Canon. Yeah, I was the definite NO yelling from the back of the room. I said it would cause way more mischief than any good we’d get from it. I said it was like getting a whole book-full of tanscribed tongues with no intpretation, and that was, like Paul says, worth diddly squat.

    But, no. You all decided to put Revelation, totally uninterpreted into the canon so everyman makes is own sense of it. Good luck with that, but I’m not wasting any of my time with it. antilego

  • Joanne

    You remember that meeting where we all got together and voted on whether to admit The Book of Revelation to the Canon. Yeah, I was the definite NO yelling from the back of the room. I said it would cause way more mischief than any good we’d get from it. I said it was like getting a whole book-full of tanscribed tongues with no intpretation, and that was, like Paul says, worth diddly squat.

    But, no. You all decided to put Revelation, totally uninterpreted into the canon so everyman makes is own sense of it. Good luck with that, but I’m not wasting any of my time with it. antilego

  • Pete

    Dr. Veith @6.

    Agreed that Christ creates the Church. But isn’t it correct that it is out of the O.T. “type” of the Church (namely Israel) that Christ was born. Hence the genealogies presented in the Gospels.

  • Pete

    Dr. Veith @6.

    Agreed that Christ creates the Church. But isn’t it correct that it is out of the O.T. “type” of the Church (namely Israel) that Christ was born. Hence the genealogies presented in the Gospels.

  • Tom Hering

    Joanne @ 10, any book of Scripture would be worthless if a true picture of Christ couldn’t be found in it. Fortunately, that’s not the case with Revelation. On the whole, I tend to see it as a prophecy of Christ’s promises fulfilled, e.g., “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it,” “I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also,” etc. Sure, the details are open to a wide variety of interpretations, but the message is clear as a bell: we all make it to our eternal home because of Christ.

  • Tom Hering

    Joanne @ 10, any book of Scripture would be worthless if a true picture of Christ couldn’t be found in it. Fortunately, that’s not the case with Revelation. On the whole, I tend to see it as a prophecy of Christ’s promises fulfilled, e.g., “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it,” “I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also,” etc. Sure, the details are open to a wide variety of interpretations, but the message is clear as a bell: we all make it to our eternal home because of Christ.

  • SM

    Martin Franzmann’s commentary on Revelation (Concordia Publishing House, 1968) states: “John’s readers in the churches of Asia would be familiar with the portrayal of God’s people as a woman and mother from their hearing of the Old Testament prophets …and the 12 stars of her crown would identify her for them unmistakably as Israel of the 12 tribes. ….The Christmas story is here being told in a way quite different from the familiar one in the first two chapters of Luke, but in both stories salvation is from the Jews.”

  • SM

    Martin Franzmann’s commentary on Revelation (Concordia Publishing House, 1968) states: “John’s readers in the churches of Asia would be familiar with the portrayal of God’s people as a woman and mother from their hearing of the Old Testament prophets …and the 12 stars of her crown would identify her for them unmistakably as Israel of the 12 tribes. ….The Christmas story is here being told in a way quite different from the familiar one in the first two chapters of Luke, but in both stories salvation is from the Jews.”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    TSherm, this refers not to the Immaculate Conception but to the perpetual virginity of Mary, which had to mean that even childbirth did not disturb her physical virginity, so that Christ passed through her as He passed through the walls after His resurrection. Mary might still have endured labor pains–the contractions of her womb–even if this is how He was delivered.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    TSherm, this refers not to the Immaculate Conception but to the perpetual virginity of Mary, which had to mean that even childbirth did not disturb her physical virginity, so that Christ passed through her as He passed through the walls after His resurrection. Mary might still have endured labor pains–the contractions of her womb–even if this is how He was delivered.

  • Grace

    Joseph did not consummate their marriage until after Jesus was born, as verse twenty five makes clear – all too often people rely on the Roman Catholic belief, which doesn’t line up with the Word of God. Mary was most certainly a virgin when she concieved the Son of God, however verse 25 makes clear Joseph did know her after the Son of God was born.

    23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    “knew her not till she”
    Matthew 1

    Mary the mother of Jesus was not sinless as the Roman Church and others believe, she too needed a Savior, that’s why she uttered the words in verse 47 –

    46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    (“God my Saviour”)

    48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
    Luke 1

    We all need a Savior, and that includes Mary the mother of Jesus.

  • Grace

    Joseph did not consummate their marriage until after Jesus was born, as verse twenty five makes clear – all too often people rely on the Roman Catholic belief, which doesn’t line up with the Word of God. Mary was most certainly a virgin when she concieved the Son of God, however verse 25 makes clear Joseph did know her after the Son of God was born.

    23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    “knew her not till she”
    Matthew 1

    Mary the mother of Jesus was not sinless as the Roman Church and others believe, she too needed a Savior, that’s why she uttered the words in verse 47 –

    46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    (“God my Saviour”)

    48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
    Luke 1

    We all need a Savior, and that includes Mary the mother of Jesus.

  • Bass

    Grace, the Catholic Church teaches that Christ is Mary’s Savior.
    Martin Luther and John Calvin also believed that Mary remained a virgin.

  • Bass

    Grace, the Catholic Church teaches that Christ is Mary’s Savior.
    Martin Luther and John Calvin also believed that Mary remained a virgin.

  • Grace

    “Martin Luther and John Calvin also believed that Mary remained a virgin”

    They are both wrong. There is not one Scripture that substantiates that belief, it is straight from the Roman Catholic Church, which has lived off “tradition” – not being Biblical.

    Scripture trumps Luther, Calvin and anyone else who strays from the Bible.

  • Grace

    “Martin Luther and John Calvin also believed that Mary remained a virgin”

    They are both wrong. There is not one Scripture that substantiates that belief, it is straight from the Roman Catholic Church, which has lived off “tradition” – not being Biblical.

    Scripture trumps Luther, Calvin and anyone else who strays from the Bible.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Actually Grace, the virginity of Mary is considered an open question. Scripture does not make it clear explicitly one way or another. The familial language is a little squishy to be able to say firmly one way or the other. In addition, whether or not Mary remained a virgin has no bearing on the central premise of faith Jesus is the Son of God in the flesh – our salvation.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Actually Grace, the virginity of Mary is considered an open question. Scripture does not make it clear explicitly one way or another. The familial language is a little squishy to be able to say firmly one way or the other. In addition, whether or not Mary remained a virgin has no bearing on the central premise of faith Jesus is the Son of God in the flesh – our salvation.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I would also point out that the preposition of Matt 1:25 translated in the version you used at till has several accepted ways of rendering. Some of which don’t really denote a specific time. For example, it could easily read “while she bore a son” read that way all we can say is that during the time of the pregnancy they remained abstinent but after words well, the Bible doesn’t say.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I would also point out that the preposition of Matt 1:25 translated in the version you used at till has several accepted ways of rendering. Some of which don’t really denote a specific time. For example, it could easily read “while she bore a son” read that way all we can say is that during the time of the pregnancy they remained abstinent but after words well, the Bible doesn’t say.

  • Grace

    Luther believed that Mary was sinless, however this belief is not based on Biblical Scripture but upon the Roman Catholic Church beliefs, which included idolatry on a large scale. Martin Luther kept the belief that Mary was sinless without a shred of evidence…. in was merely tradition, which he followed ‘lock step’ –

    Below a quote from Luther:

    “It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
    Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527

    The above is not based upon Scripture, but soley upon Luther’s belief.

    Yet Mary stated:

    “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Luke 1:47

    Why would Mary need a Savior if she were without sin, …. and if that were possible why does the Word of God state clearly “all have sinned” ?

    For All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Romans 3:23

    “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
    Romans 5:12

    The only sinless are God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – they are the Trinity, they are sinless, they were from everlasting, they were in the heavens when this was all made, no one else, no one else had the power.

  • Grace

    Luther believed that Mary was sinless, however this belief is not based on Biblical Scripture but upon the Roman Catholic Church beliefs, which included idolatry on a large scale. Martin Luther kept the belief that Mary was sinless without a shred of evidence…. in was merely tradition, which he followed ‘lock step’ –

    Below a quote from Luther:

    “It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
    Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527

    The above is not based upon Scripture, but soley upon Luther’s belief.

    Yet Mary stated:

    “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Luke 1:47

    Why would Mary need a Savior if she were without sin, …. and if that were possible why does the Word of God state clearly “all have sinned” ?

    For All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Romans 3:23

    “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
    Romans 5:12

    The only sinless are God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit – they are the Trinity, they are sinless, they were from everlasting, they were in the heavens when this was all made, no one else, no one else had the power.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    Grace’s Luther quote is taken out of context and therefore wrong. She may not be aware of this. Luther really should never be quoted like this.

    I, myself, have read this sermon in question ENTIRE numerous times now in the original German and several translations. When Luther speaks about the two conceptions theory he is presenting one view among various prevailing views. He is trying to calm the waters and allow people their own pious opinions, which they were not to make into dogma as there is no scripture to go on. In other editions this portion is not even contained. James dissects this and shows how this has been used in RC “apologetics” consistently and inappropriately in this post: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/12/luther-on-immaculate-conception_26.html

    I’ve been helping James with translating and thinking through this sermon.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    Grace’s Luther quote is taken out of context and therefore wrong. She may not be aware of this. Luther really should never be quoted like this.

    I, myself, have read this sermon in question ENTIRE numerous times now in the original German and several translations. When Luther speaks about the two conceptions theory he is presenting one view among various prevailing views. He is trying to calm the waters and allow people their own pious opinions, which they were not to make into dogma as there is no scripture to go on. In other editions this portion is not even contained. James dissects this and shows how this has been used in RC “apologetics” consistently and inappropriately in this post: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2005/12/luther-on-immaculate-conception_26.html

    I’ve been helping James with translating and thinking through this sermon.

  • Joanne

    It’s such a shame that this thread has gotten so far afield from Revalations as I was so sure that Grace was going to help us understand the full ability of the book to cause mischief with several concrete examples. Come on Grace, tell us what Revalations is all about. How is the world to end?

  • Joanne

    It’s such a shame that this thread has gotten so far afield from Revalations as I was so sure that Grace was going to help us understand the full ability of the book to cause mischief with several concrete examples. Come on Grace, tell us what Revalations is all about. How is the world to end?

  • Grace

    Joanne – 22

    Oh come Joanne, you made it crystal clear as to your views in post #10 –

    “You remember that meeting where we all got together and voted on whether to admit The Book of Revelation to the Canon. Yeah, I was the definite NO yelling from the back of the room. I said it would cause way more mischief than any good we’d get from it. I said it was like getting a whole book-full of tanscribed tongues with no intpretation, and that was, like Paul says, worth diddly squat.

    “diddly squat” ? –

    And then you dance back with:

    But, no. You all decided to put Revelation, totally uninterpreted into the canon so everyman makes is own sense of it. Good luck with that, but I’m not wasting any of my time with it.”

    You mockingly use the ploy:

    #22 “I was so sure that Grace was going to help us understand the full ability of the book to cause mischief with several concrete examples. Come on Grace, tell us what Revalations is all about. How is the world to end?”

    Study Revelation for yourself, it would be a good use of your time. That is unless you aren’t able to search it out, but would rather ridicule those who do!

  • Grace

    Joanne – 22

    Oh come Joanne, you made it crystal clear as to your views in post #10 –

    “You remember that meeting where we all got together and voted on whether to admit The Book of Revelation to the Canon. Yeah, I was the definite NO yelling from the back of the room. I said it would cause way more mischief than any good we’d get from it. I said it was like getting a whole book-full of tanscribed tongues with no intpretation, and that was, like Paul says, worth diddly squat.

    “diddly squat” ? –

    And then you dance back with:

    But, no. You all decided to put Revelation, totally uninterpreted into the canon so everyman makes is own sense of it. Good luck with that, but I’m not wasting any of my time with it.”

    You mockingly use the ploy:

    #22 “I was so sure that Grace was going to help us understand the full ability of the book to cause mischief with several concrete examples. Come on Grace, tell us what Revalations is all about. How is the world to end?”

    Study Revelation for yourself, it would be a good use of your time. That is unless you aren’t able to search it out, but would rather ridicule those who do!

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 21

    “Grace’s Luther quote is taken out of context and therefore wrong. She may not be aware of this. Luther really should never be quoted like this.”

    Poor Luther, when all else fails, ….. his statements put to the test, and they DO NOT LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE, the excuses roll in like fog in San Francisco – The quote in post 20 from Luther stands, not on anything you can find in the Word of God, but those are Luther’s words –

    “taken out of context” is the laziest excuse, used by the Roman Church, those who excuse Calvin, and of course Luther as well.

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 21

    “Grace’s Luther quote is taken out of context and therefore wrong. She may not be aware of this. Luther really should never be quoted like this.”

    Poor Luther, when all else fails, ….. his statements put to the test, and they DO NOT LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE, the excuses roll in like fog in San Francisco – The quote in post 20 from Luther stands, not on anything you can find in the Word of God, but those are Luther’s words –

    “taken out of context” is the laziest excuse, used by the Roman Church, those who excuse Calvin, and of course Luther as well.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    Grace:

    just two questions, please answer yes or no.

    1. Have you read the sermon in question in any language? It is not that long.

    2. Did you check out the link I sent you?

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    Grace:

    just two questions, please answer yes or no.

    1. Have you read the sermon in question in any language? It is not that long.

    2. Did you check out the link I sent you?

  • Grace

    Bob –

    “It’s hard to fathom your reason for demanding all accept your view that Mary did not remain a virgin, but it seems borne from your hatred of the Catholic Church.”

    I demand nothing – the Word of God contradicts the RCC, and Luther, regarding Mary’s being a virgin after Jesus was born.

    There is no “hate” as you accuse me, …. The Roman Catholic Church is false in many respects. They exchange ‘tradition’ for factual truth that can be found in the Word of God.

    Mocking in reverse Bob? – that is exactly what transpired, and then you engage in it yourself, along with several others.

  • Grace

    Bob –

    “It’s hard to fathom your reason for demanding all accept your view that Mary did not remain a virgin, but it seems borne from your hatred of the Catholic Church.”

    I demand nothing – the Word of God contradicts the RCC, and Luther, regarding Mary’s being a virgin after Jesus was born.

    There is no “hate” as you accuse me, …. The Roman Catholic Church is false in many respects. They exchange ‘tradition’ for factual truth that can be found in the Word of God.

    Mocking in reverse Bob? – that is exactly what transpired, and then you engage in it yourself, along with several others.

  • Grace

    - “but through her to God” ?

    “One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace. Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” Martin Luther(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

    - “but through her to God” ?

    There is not one piece of Scripture that tells us we are to go through Mary to God. The Word of God is explicit !

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1 Timothy 2:5

    - “one mediator” !

    Mary isn’t mentioned in even the slightest way, that anyone should go “through her to God” – Luther however, decided differently, without understanding what the Bible states.

  • Grace

    - “but through her to God” ?

    “One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace. Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” Martin Luther(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

    - “but through her to God” ?

    There is not one piece of Scripture that tells us we are to go through Mary to God. The Word of God is explicit !

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1 Timothy 2:5

    - “one mediator” !

    Mary isn’t mentioned in even the slightest way, that anyone should go “through her to God” – Luther however, decided differently, without understanding what the Bible states.

  • Grace

    Bob – 26

    “You’ll answer that you’re merely upholding the Word, but you’re speaking, in your own way, ex cathedra”

    I meant to post about this earlier, but here it is. “Ex cathedra” – the Pope, Luther and others believe they can make it up as they go along, even to the point of ignoring Holy Scripture in place of their own beliefs, which they believe trump the very words in the Bible.

    ex cathedra
    1. with authority
    2. (Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) RC Church (of doctrines of faith or morals) defined by the pope as infallibly true, to be accepted by all Catholics

    Bob, the ONLY authority is the Word of God – all the books that man makes that do not line up with Scripture are bogus. God has not given us the right to change one dot or tittle of His Word.

  • Grace

    Bob – 26

    “You’ll answer that you’re merely upholding the Word, but you’re speaking, in your own way, ex cathedra”

    I meant to post about this earlier, but here it is. “Ex cathedra” – the Pope, Luther and others believe they can make it up as they go along, even to the point of ignoring Holy Scripture in place of their own beliefs, which they believe trump the very words in the Bible.

    ex cathedra
    1. with authority
    2. (Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) RC Church (of doctrines of faith or morals) defined by the pope as infallibly true, to be accepted by all Catholics

    Bob, the ONLY authority is the Word of God – all the books that man makes that do not line up with Scripture are bogus. God has not given us the right to change one dot or tittle of His Word.

  • Tom Hering

    DDD

  • Tom Hering

    DDD

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    As usual, we find Grace quoting Martin Luther more than anyone else here. Why Grace chooses to hang out among Lutherans, quote random chunks of Luther at them (as if Lutherans agreed with everything that Luther wrote, which Grace knows we do not), and then chastise them for listening to Luther so much, only she knows.

    And yet. When she is called on her contextless cherry-picking, does she actually have a defense for her actions? No. She just waves her hands (@24) and says “the excuses roll in like fog in San Francisco”. Grace, you are intellectually unable to defend your quote selection. That much is clear. It is also clear that Brigitte (@21) simply knows more about this topic than you do. But then, Brigitte is interested in actually learning and knowing what Luther meant. That has never been your goal here on this blog, has it?

    But if Grace enjoys quotes taken out of context, then let’s all remember that Grace’s main theological position, as memorialized on this blog, is: “SOCKS, blog tag – SHAME!”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    As usual, we find Grace quoting Martin Luther more than anyone else here. Why Grace chooses to hang out among Lutherans, quote random chunks of Luther at them (as if Lutherans agreed with everything that Luther wrote, which Grace knows we do not), and then chastise them for listening to Luther so much, only she knows.

    And yet. When she is called on her contextless cherry-picking, does she actually have a defense for her actions? No. She just waves her hands (@24) and says “the excuses roll in like fog in San Francisco”. Grace, you are intellectually unable to defend your quote selection. That much is clear. It is also clear that Brigitte (@21) simply knows more about this topic than you do. But then, Brigitte is interested in actually learning and knowing what Luther meant. That has never been your goal here on this blog, has it?

    But if Grace enjoys quotes taken out of context, then let’s all remember that Grace’s main theological position, as memorialized on this blog, is: “SOCKS, blog tag – SHAME!”

  • Grace

    “She just waves her hands (@24) and says “the excuses roll in like fog in San Francisco”. Grace, you are intellectually unable to defend your quote selection.”

    Poor you, left with more of Luther’s statements which don’t line up with Scripture. Anyone who has studied the Word of God see’s right through the many statements made by Luther and others that are false. It is intellectually false to question the inerrant, Word of God, and instead, play the pseudo intellectual game – Your arguments are nothing but foggy holes you trip in, when statements do not line up with Scripture, and then you defend them.

    Just as Luther disliked many books in the Bible, such as Esther, Hebrews, Revelation, James and many others – throw in his hatred for the Jews, …… obviously not understanding who Jesus was, not being aware of Isaiah 53 which foretold of Christ’s life long before He was born, preached and taught, and then died on the Cross. If Luther had taken the time to study Isaiah he would have understood the prophecy that chapter 53 contained, but instead – Martin Luther hated the Jews, and wanted them driven from their towns, homes, the Synagogues burned to the ground, their Holy Scriptures taken from them. That is not only sinful, and hateful, it shows absolutely not one “intellectual” bone, but rather hatred in it’s most extreme form. But of course you can find an excuse for that as well.

    verse 3 “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

    The Bible has been with us a long time. Luther was not the first to translate it, but he most certainly is one who is known to twist what the Bible says. If he were alive today, with Biblical scholars debating his statements and beliefs he wouldn’t be able to do anything, except to admit to extreme error. There were many men who began the reformation….. Luther stands out because he changed and manipulated what the Bible actually states to suit his beliefs –

    As far as this blog, what’s the problem? – if your beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny then you cry as to why someone who disagrees with you is on this blog. Is that what you desire, a blog that is free from criticism, free from examination, using the Word of God to defend the Gospel rather than a man 500 years ago who hated the Jews and stated many things which are not Biblical? Hatred that is so antisemitic as to turn one’s stomach!

  • Grace

    “She just waves her hands (@24) and says “the excuses roll in like fog in San Francisco”. Grace, you are intellectually unable to defend your quote selection.”

    Poor you, left with more of Luther’s statements which don’t line up with Scripture. Anyone who has studied the Word of God see’s right through the many statements made by Luther and others that are false. It is intellectually false to question the inerrant, Word of God, and instead, play the pseudo intellectual game – Your arguments are nothing but foggy holes you trip in, when statements do not line up with Scripture, and then you defend them.

    Just as Luther disliked many books in the Bible, such as Esther, Hebrews, Revelation, James and many others – throw in his hatred for the Jews, …… obviously not understanding who Jesus was, not being aware of Isaiah 53 which foretold of Christ’s life long before He was born, preached and taught, and then died on the Cross. If Luther had taken the time to study Isaiah he would have understood the prophecy that chapter 53 contained, but instead – Martin Luther hated the Jews, and wanted them driven from their towns, homes, the Synagogues burned to the ground, their Holy Scriptures taken from them. That is not only sinful, and hateful, it shows absolutely not one “intellectual” bone, but rather hatred in it’s most extreme form. But of course you can find an excuse for that as well.

    verse 3 “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

    The Bible has been with us a long time. Luther was not the first to translate it, but he most certainly is one who is known to twist what the Bible says. If he were alive today, with Biblical scholars debating his statements and beliefs he wouldn’t be able to do anything, except to admit to extreme error. There were many men who began the reformation….. Luther stands out because he changed and manipulated what the Bible actually states to suit his beliefs –

    As far as this blog, what’s the problem? – if your beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny then you cry as to why someone who disagrees with you is on this blog. Is that what you desire, a blog that is free from criticism, free from examination, using the Word of God to defend the Gospel rather than a man 500 years ago who hated the Jews and stated many things which are not Biblical? Hatred that is so antisemitic as to turn one’s stomach!

  • http://thoughts-brigitte Brigitte

    Dear Grace:

    You did not answer my first two questions, but I have another two for you:

    1. Have you ever heard of the Lutheran Confessions?
    2. Have you ever read the Lutheran Confessions?

    These are what you might challenge people on.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte Brigitte

    Dear Grace:

    You did not answer my first two questions, but I have another two for you:

    1. Have you ever heard of the Lutheran Confessions?
    2. Have you ever read the Lutheran Confessions?

    These are what you might challenge people on.

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 33

    On this blog I have given out exact web sites and page numbers for the Lutheran Confessions/Book of Concord, etc, when posters have misquoted the works. That should answer your question.

    I challenge people with the Word of God, that is where the inspired, inerrant Word can be found. Going straight to the source is the only way to get it right. Commentaries are sometimes a good referrence point, but they certainly don’t trump the Bible, and many times are not accurate.

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 33

    On this blog I have given out exact web sites and page numbers for the Lutheran Confessions/Book of Concord, etc, when posters have misquoted the works. That should answer your question.

    I challenge people with the Word of God, that is where the inspired, inerrant Word can be found. Going straight to the source is the only way to get it right. Commentaries are sometimes a good referrence point, but they certainly don’t trump the Bible, and many times are not accurate.

  • Brigitte

    Ok, Grace: the answer to 1. is “yes”. What about 2.?

    You want to challenge on the word of God, but throw in charges of antisemitism at unsuspecting discussion partners, quotes out of context and don’t want to stand corrected on that. You say one thing and do another.

    If you are versed in the Confessions, you also know what people are willing to defend, and you need not throw in red herrings–that was my point.

  • Brigitte

    Ok, Grace: the answer to 1. is “yes”. What about 2.?

    You want to challenge on the word of God, but throw in charges of antisemitism at unsuspecting discussion partners, quotes out of context and don’t want to stand corrected on that. You say one thing and do another.

    If you are versed in the Confessions, you also know what people are willing to defend, and you need not throw in red herrings–that was my point.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, what exactly makes your understanding of Scripture better than that of the Lutherans here? Convince us we should follow your example by telling us about your method of interpretation. What are the principles of interpretation that guide you? Can you tell us? Are you willing to tell us? Or do you think I’m trying to trick you in some way?

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, what exactly makes your understanding of Scripture better than that of the Lutherans here? Convince us we should follow your example by telling us about your method of interpretation. What are the principles of interpretation that guide you? Can you tell us? Are you willing to tell us? Or do you think I’m trying to trick you in some way?

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 35

    “You want to challenge on the word of God, but throw in charges of antisemitism at unsuspecting discussion partners, quotes out of context and don’t want to stand corrected on that. You say one thing and do another.”

    Quotes aren’t out of context, the problem you and others have IS, you don’t like to look at them, …. the reason? – you can’t defend false doctrine, SO…… you and others use the “quotes out of context” phrase in hopes it muddles the discussion, but it never does. As for “antisemitism at unsuspecting discussion partners” – - No one can overlook the anti semitic book Luther wrote, especially when he makes errors as to doctrine, that cannot be substantiated in the Word of God, as I’ve mentioned on earlier posts. When the “quotes out of context” appears, it reminds anyone who has studied, that it’s time to scoot and shuffle, …. then one brings up anti semitism, BECAUSE the LORD Jesus Christ born of a Jewish line represents and is, the very Savior and Salvation I believe in. You cannot separate them.

    It doesn’t just end with the ugly hatred of the Jews, but Luther’s dislike for the book of Esther in which he states:

    “”The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much.”
    Martin Luther

    Judaizes too much.” ? Just another nasty remark against the children of Israel – anyone with a grain of brains can see it. Luther missed his studies of Isaiah 53, and many others – in essence the man wasn’t able to understand the basic teachings of Christ, … to love –

    “If you are versed in the Confessions, you also know what people are willing to defend, and you need not throw in red herrings–that was my point.”

    Whether you or any Lutheran is willing to defend Luther’s quotes, small books, is your choice,….. it isn’t a matter of throwing in a red herring, it is making clear that many of Luther’s doctrine/beliefs/anti semitism is what he represents, and because Lutherans put Luther or a pedestal, it all stands together, especially when other doctrine doesn’t line up with the Holy Bible.

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 35

    “You want to challenge on the word of God, but throw in charges of antisemitism at unsuspecting discussion partners, quotes out of context and don’t want to stand corrected on that. You say one thing and do another.”

    Quotes aren’t out of context, the problem you and others have IS, you don’t like to look at them, …. the reason? – you can’t defend false doctrine, SO…… you and others use the “quotes out of context” phrase in hopes it muddles the discussion, but it never does. As for “antisemitism at unsuspecting discussion partners” – - No one can overlook the anti semitic book Luther wrote, especially when he makes errors as to doctrine, that cannot be substantiated in the Word of God, as I’ve mentioned on earlier posts. When the “quotes out of context” appears, it reminds anyone who has studied, that it’s time to scoot and shuffle, …. then one brings up anti semitism, BECAUSE the LORD Jesus Christ born of a Jewish line represents and is, the very Savior and Salvation I believe in. You cannot separate them.

    It doesn’t just end with the ugly hatred of the Jews, but Luther’s dislike for the book of Esther in which he states:

    “”The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much.”
    Martin Luther

    Judaizes too much.” ? Just another nasty remark against the children of Israel – anyone with a grain of brains can see it. Luther missed his studies of Isaiah 53, and many others – in essence the man wasn’t able to understand the basic teachings of Christ, … to love –

    “If you are versed in the Confessions, you also know what people are willing to defend, and you need not throw in red herrings–that was my point.”

    Whether you or any Lutheran is willing to defend Luther’s quotes, small books, is your choice,….. it isn’t a matter of throwing in a red herring, it is making clear that many of Luther’s doctrine/beliefs/anti semitism is what he represents, and because Lutherans put Luther or a pedestal, it all stands together, especially when other doctrine doesn’t line up with the Holy Bible.

  • Joanne

    Rats, I couldn’t get Grace @23 to take the bait. She way too smart for me.
    As my mother passed through the room, I mentioned to her that you all were discussing, with delicious alacrity, the possible ever-virginity of Mary. Mama arched up and replied, “I’d imagine that only poor old Joseph would have been concerned about that.”
    And so I’m reminded again of Paul’s advice to those married folk who are managing lust, “unless you both have agreed to remain apart for a season.”
    Poor Mary and Joseph, the whole world wants to rummage around in their marriage bed while the Bible remains wholesomely silent about it. They were happily married for at least 12 years — wouldn’t it be more humane to construct a way for her to have been symbolically and mystically virginal all those years after the birth of her Savior?

  • Joanne

    Rats, I couldn’t get Grace @23 to take the bait. She way too smart for me.
    As my mother passed through the room, I mentioned to her that you all were discussing, with delicious alacrity, the possible ever-virginity of Mary. Mama arched up and replied, “I’d imagine that only poor old Joseph would have been concerned about that.”
    And so I’m reminded again of Paul’s advice to those married folk who are managing lust, “unless you both have agreed to remain apart for a season.”
    Poor Mary and Joseph, the whole world wants to rummage around in their marriage bed while the Bible remains wholesomely silent about it. They were happily married for at least 12 years — wouldn’t it be more humane to construct a way for her to have been symbolically and mystically virginal all those years after the birth of her Savior?

  • Grace

    Martin Luther didn’t like the book of Revelation

    About this book of the Revelation of John. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it”
    (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522)

    Jesus is taught and spoken of all through Revelation – HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA –

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1

    Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Revelation 1:2

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16

    He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20

  • Grace

    Martin Luther didn’t like the book of Revelation

    About this book of the Revelation of John. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep. My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it”
    (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522)

    Jesus is taught and spoken of all through Revelation – HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA –

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1

    Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Revelation 1:2

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12

    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Revelation 17:6

    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:16

    He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20

  • Joanne

    http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/primary-texts-from-the-history-of-the-relationship/272-luther-1523

    A link to some excerpts from “That Jesus Christ was born a Jew.” I think they could establish a few baselines (@32) .

  • Joanne

    http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/primary-texts-from-the-history-of-the-relationship/272-luther-1523

    A link to some excerpts from “That Jesus Christ was born a Jew.” I think they could establish a few baselines (@32) .

  • Joanne

    Martin Brecht vol.3 Bio of Luther, The Jews.
    Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=REdhA-zjbcsC&pg=PA341&dq=Luther+advocating+expulsion+of+the+jews&hl=en&ei=PKYaTbG2MYGdlgfS3azbCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Luther%20advocating%20expulsion%20of%20the%20jews&f=false

    Excellent chapter in Brecht’s 3 volume bio of Luther on the Judenfrage. Isaiah 53 and Luther’s incorrect translation vis-a-vis the Jewish exegesis is discussed here, but Grace wouldn’t be interested.

  • Joanne

    Martin Brecht vol.3 Bio of Luther, The Jews.
    Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=REdhA-zjbcsC&pg=PA341&dq=Luther+advocating+expulsion+of+the+jews&hl=en&ei=PKYaTbG2MYGdlgfS3azbCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Luther%20advocating%20expulsion%20of%20the%20jews&f=false

    Excellent chapter in Brecht’s 3 volume bio of Luther on the Judenfrage. Isaiah 53 and Luther’s incorrect translation vis-a-vis the Jewish exegesis is discussed here, but Grace wouldn’t be interested.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 39, Luther changed his views on Revelation, and set them forth in his preface of 1530 – eight years after the 1522 preface you quote from. So, either you’re ignorant in this matter, or you think we are. Neither possibility enhances your reputation here.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 39, Luther changed his views on Revelation, and set them forth in his preface of 1530 – eight years after the 1522 preface you quote from. So, either you’re ignorant in this matter, or you think we are. Neither possibility enhances your reputation here.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I stopped reading Grace at about comment #26 did she ever put together two coherent words? Or did she continue to post random quotes from websites put together by unbiblical preachers. I admit, I feel kind of ignored in pointing out the nature of her virginity being an open question.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I stopped reading Grace at about comment #26 did she ever put together two coherent words? Or did she continue to post random quotes from websites put together by unbiblical preachers. I admit, I feel kind of ignored in pointing out the nature of her virginity being an open question.

  • Grace

    43 Dr. Luther in 21st Century – 43

    “Or did she continue to post random quotes from websites put together by unbiblical preachers. “

    You can read it for yourself, (link below) then you won’t have to worry about “unbibilical preachers” – you have one of your own to contend with. You have some silly idea that everyone who does research flips through “random quotes” – how wrong you are!

    On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
    by Martin Luther (1483-1546)
    Translated by Martin H. Bertram

    Fortress Press & Augsburg Fortress – On the Jews and Their Lies is from Luther’s Works Volume 47. Augsburg Fortress is the publishing ministry of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Funded through sales revenue, Augsburg Fortress is called to provide products and services that communicate the Gospel, enhance faith, and enrich the life of the Christian community from a Lutheran perspective.

    http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

  • Grace

    43 Dr. Luther in 21st Century – 43

    “Or did she continue to post random quotes from websites put together by unbiblical preachers. “

    You can read it for yourself, (link below) then you won’t have to worry about “unbibilical preachers” – you have one of your own to contend with. You have some silly idea that everyone who does research flips through “random quotes” – how wrong you are!

    On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
    by Martin Luther (1483-1546)
    Translated by Martin H. Bertram

    Fortress Press & Augsburg Fortress – On the Jews and Their Lies is from Luther’s Works Volume 47. Augsburg Fortress is the publishing ministry of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Funded through sales revenue, Augsburg Fortress is called to provide products and services that communicate the Gospel, enhance faith, and enrich the life of the Christian community from a Lutheran perspective.

    http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Again with the red-herrings come on Grace get with the program. I could careless about Luther’s diatribe on Jews, who by the way were attempting to lure away young Christians, but I am not sure you would care to know that historical fact as it is apparent you obviously don’t care to do actual research. I will address your red-herring concerning Luther’s purported antisemitism, no further for to follow your red-herring is a waste of my time.

    I finally read through your posts they were good for a laugh. Random ramblings and red-herrings abounding. Please keep it up. I need a good laugh.

    It has already been pointed out to you, but you have continued to ignore for what ever strange reason, no Lutheran is going to defend everything Luther wrote. He wrote a ton of material, the current published count of his works translated into English is 55 volumes and will be expanding to 75. And while very interesting to read, for one it shows, his growing maturity in Scriptural understanding (which other have pointed out but you ignored), he has some fantastic view points and explanations, but he isn’t always right, and the vast majority of his works are not considered binding. But we will defend the Lutheran Confessions to our dying breath because they have stood the test of Scriptural veracity.

    They may be found at the link below if you are actually interested in learning something, rather than continue to believe what others have said based on cherry picked quotes.

    http://www.bookofconcord.org/

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Again with the red-herrings come on Grace get with the program. I could careless about Luther’s diatribe on Jews, who by the way were attempting to lure away young Christians, but I am not sure you would care to know that historical fact as it is apparent you obviously don’t care to do actual research. I will address your red-herring concerning Luther’s purported antisemitism, no further for to follow your red-herring is a waste of my time.

    I finally read through your posts they were good for a laugh. Random ramblings and red-herrings abounding. Please keep it up. I need a good laugh.

    It has already been pointed out to you, but you have continued to ignore for what ever strange reason, no Lutheran is going to defend everything Luther wrote. He wrote a ton of material, the current published count of his works translated into English is 55 volumes and will be expanding to 75. And while very interesting to read, for one it shows, his growing maturity in Scriptural understanding (which other have pointed out but you ignored), he has some fantastic view points and explanations, but he isn’t always right, and the vast majority of his works are not considered binding. But we will defend the Lutheran Confessions to our dying breath because they have stood the test of Scriptural veracity.

    They may be found at the link below if you are actually interested in learning something, rather than continue to believe what others have said based on cherry picked quotes.

    http://www.bookofconcord.org/

  • Joanne
  • Joanne
  • Joanne
  • Joanne
  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Do you think Grace finally went to go study?

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Do you think Grace finally went to go study?

  • Tom Hering

    Doc @ 48, Grace studies. (I take her at her word about this.) Apparently, though, she spends a lot of her study time studying what’s wrong with Luther and Lutherans. Which leaves little time for self-improvement. Obviously.

  • Tom Hering

    Doc @ 48, Grace studies. (I take her at her word about this.) Apparently, though, she spends a lot of her study time studying what’s wrong with Luther and Lutherans. Which leaves little time for self-improvement. Obviously.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    There is a basic problem: people are not at all familiar with things Luther wrote. It is highly ironic because the man was so clear and so prolific. It could be our own fault that this is so. I have mentioned before that I discovered my actual first book by Luther at the bookstore at the University of Alberta, by accident (by this time I was already married into LCC or rather LCMS at the time); and recently I scoured big book stores in Toronto and could not find anything by Luther or on Luther except a biography by Martin Marty.

    However, there has been and is this movement afoot by crusaders of various types to discredit him. They have their little handbook of quotes and disparaging remarks that get passed from generation to generation and book to book. These things are taken out of context, or come from tabletalks, etc., or promote the Shirer myth that Luther is somehow responsible for the holocaust.

    These are the favorite things and even highly intelligent people fall into this trap and then use their righteousness to go into debates and attacks and disparagement that they know nothing about. I am guessing some of them might be earning an indulgence with this, in their minds, others by facing persecution might think that they are real, saved Christians now. A little knowledge and wrongly placed zeal is a dangerous thing. (Very dangerous.)

    Since some of this comes also from our own ignorance, I am thinking that we should make all these primary sources even more easily available by grouping them somewhere under all the favorite well-worn arguments people like to rehash. James Swan has done a lot of work in this area, and we should go over it and present this type of connection of sources, somewhere, very clearly, so that people with a desire to learn can easily find it.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    There is a basic problem: people are not at all familiar with things Luther wrote. It is highly ironic because the man was so clear and so prolific. It could be our own fault that this is so. I have mentioned before that I discovered my actual first book by Luther at the bookstore at the University of Alberta, by accident (by this time I was already married into LCC or rather LCMS at the time); and recently I scoured big book stores in Toronto and could not find anything by Luther or on Luther except a biography by Martin Marty.

    However, there has been and is this movement afoot by crusaders of various types to discredit him. They have their little handbook of quotes and disparaging remarks that get passed from generation to generation and book to book. These things are taken out of context, or come from tabletalks, etc., or promote the Shirer myth that Luther is somehow responsible for the holocaust.

    These are the favorite things and even highly intelligent people fall into this trap and then use their righteousness to go into debates and attacks and disparagement that they know nothing about. I am guessing some of them might be earning an indulgence with this, in their minds, others by facing persecution might think that they are real, saved Christians now. A little knowledge and wrongly placed zeal is a dangerous thing. (Very dangerous.)

    Since some of this comes also from our own ignorance, I am thinking that we should make all these primary sources even more easily available by grouping them somewhere under all the favorite well-worn arguments people like to rehash. James Swan has done a lot of work in this area, and we should go over it and present this type of connection of sources, somewhere, very clearly, so that people with a desire to learn can easily find it.

  • Tom Hering
  • Tom Hering
  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    The even more basic problem is that people miss the Gospel over this.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    The even more basic problem is that people miss the Gospel over this.

  • Tom Hering

    “… there has been and is this movement afoot by crusaders of various types to discredit [Luther].” – Brigitte @ 50.

    I’ve wondered about this, and I admit I’ve been an innocent concerning it. But it makes sense that there are extremists among the Reformed, Evangelicals and Roman Catholics who want to discredit Luther, because Lutheran arguments successfully discredit whole portions of their respective doctrines. This takes some of the mystery out of where Grace is coming from, and why she’s here (Cf. tODD @ 31).

    Yes, a single website that assembles the best Lutheran apologists (I kind of hate that term), and responds to these various attacks, would be helpful to someone like me. “Lutheran Defense League” anyone? :-D

  • Tom Hering

    “… there has been and is this movement afoot by crusaders of various types to discredit [Luther].” – Brigitte @ 50.

    I’ve wondered about this, and I admit I’ve been an innocent concerning it. But it makes sense that there are extremists among the Reformed, Evangelicals and Roman Catholics who want to discredit Luther, because Lutheran arguments successfully discredit whole portions of their respective doctrines. This takes some of the mystery out of where Grace is coming from, and why she’s here (Cf. tODD @ 31).

    Yes, a single website that assembles the best Lutheran apologists (I kind of hate that term), and responds to these various attacks, would be helpful to someone like me. “Lutheran Defense League” anyone? :-D

  • Brigitte

    The “LDL” for the “DDD” and for others, including ourselves. We owe it to Luther and yes, the defense of the Gospel.

  • Brigitte

    The “LDL” for the “DDD” and for others, including ourselves. We owe it to Luther and yes, the defense of the Gospel.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@32), you seem intent on making a mockery of yourself, engaging in the same non-sensical style of “debate” that has proven ineffective (and, not infrequently, incomprehensible) in the past. The real question at this point becomes, why do the other, reasonable people on this blog continue to reply to you as if logic would work on you, somehow, this time?

    After all, we’ve told you time after time that Lutherans do not agree with everything that Luther himself wrote. In fact, Luther himself, given how much he wrote and how his opinions evolved over time, can even be made to disagree with Luther. And no Lutheran will be surprised to find that some things Luther wrote do not line up with Scripture. The same can be said of what I or Grace have written — and we have written much less than Luther! Of course, to actually affect Lutheran theology, you’d have to show that what Lutherans believe (which, to belabor the point in what is apparently a very necessary manner, is not the same as what Luther wrote) doesn’t line up with Scripture. You have completely failed to do this, Grace. In fact, the last time we had an in-depth discussion about Scripture, it was your views, Grace, that didn’t line up with the clear teaching of Scripture. But you don’t like to talk about your own problems nearly as much as you do those of Luther, do you?

    And if you wanted to show that you actually are intellectually capable of defending your quote selection, you wouldn’t merely whine in the manner you have. You could easily use your vast, deep understanding of Luther’s works to show from the original source(s) that your quote was not cherry-picked, that it was just one of many sections from that or other works of his that showed that Luther believed what you claim. If you knew what you were talking about, this would be easy for you. And yet, that’s not how you respond. It’s very telling, Grace — at least for people who know what they’re talking about. It’s fairly clear to the rest of us that this does not include you, Grace. Not when it comes to Luther, at the very least. You don’t know enough to know what you don’t know.

    And then you go on, once more — as if we’d all forgotten since the last time you brought it up — about Luther and his views on books of the Bible. Which, as Tom has pointed out, necessarily includes your being intellectually disingenuous, since you must know now that Luther’s views changed from how you present them. Even so, you yourself have never shown any understanding whatsoever of how the Bible came to be assembled. You’ve been asked about this many times, and every time, you just ignore the questions. I have to assume you don’t know, or simply don’t care, even as you seek to discredit Luther for his discussion of what books should be in the Bible. Do you think that’s intellectually honest, Grace?

    And then you make your anti-semitic charges, some of which stick, or would if you had any shred of credibility when it came to understanding Luther, Lutherans, or anything like that — to say nothing of a sense of how to craft a solid argument. But you don’t. Your continued references to Isaiah 53 — the significance of which, yes, we Lutherans all understand, as did Luther — make no sense as a charge against Luther as an anti-Semite. But you’re ignorant of what Luther wrote about Isaiah, aren’t you, Grace? You’d have to be, to write what you write.

    “If your beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny then you cry as to why someone who disagrees with you is on this blog.” Oh, please. Nearly everyone on this blog disagrees with me in at least one way. The founder of this blog and I have some very fundamental disagreements, at least on some points. But he (and many others here) is capable of making reasonable arguments. He knows what he’s talking about. I respect people like that, even if I disagree with them. The problem is that you assume that you are making credible, informed, intellectually honest arguments like Dr. Veith and others here do. You are not. If you knew more about what you’re talking about, you would realize how little credibility your arguments have. But you don’t know enough to know that.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@32), you seem intent on making a mockery of yourself, engaging in the same non-sensical style of “debate” that has proven ineffective (and, not infrequently, incomprehensible) in the past. The real question at this point becomes, why do the other, reasonable people on this blog continue to reply to you as if logic would work on you, somehow, this time?

    After all, we’ve told you time after time that Lutherans do not agree with everything that Luther himself wrote. In fact, Luther himself, given how much he wrote and how his opinions evolved over time, can even be made to disagree with Luther. And no Lutheran will be surprised to find that some things Luther wrote do not line up with Scripture. The same can be said of what I or Grace have written — and we have written much less than Luther! Of course, to actually affect Lutheran theology, you’d have to show that what Lutherans believe (which, to belabor the point in what is apparently a very necessary manner, is not the same as what Luther wrote) doesn’t line up with Scripture. You have completely failed to do this, Grace. In fact, the last time we had an in-depth discussion about Scripture, it was your views, Grace, that didn’t line up with the clear teaching of Scripture. But you don’t like to talk about your own problems nearly as much as you do those of Luther, do you?

    And if you wanted to show that you actually are intellectually capable of defending your quote selection, you wouldn’t merely whine in the manner you have. You could easily use your vast, deep understanding of Luther’s works to show from the original source(s) that your quote was not cherry-picked, that it was just one of many sections from that or other works of his that showed that Luther believed what you claim. If you knew what you were talking about, this would be easy for you. And yet, that’s not how you respond. It’s very telling, Grace — at least for people who know what they’re talking about. It’s fairly clear to the rest of us that this does not include you, Grace. Not when it comes to Luther, at the very least. You don’t know enough to know what you don’t know.

    And then you go on, once more — as if we’d all forgotten since the last time you brought it up — about Luther and his views on books of the Bible. Which, as Tom has pointed out, necessarily includes your being intellectually disingenuous, since you must know now that Luther’s views changed from how you present them. Even so, you yourself have never shown any understanding whatsoever of how the Bible came to be assembled. You’ve been asked about this many times, and every time, you just ignore the questions. I have to assume you don’t know, or simply don’t care, even as you seek to discredit Luther for his discussion of what books should be in the Bible. Do you think that’s intellectually honest, Grace?

    And then you make your anti-semitic charges, some of which stick, or would if you had any shred of credibility when it came to understanding Luther, Lutherans, or anything like that — to say nothing of a sense of how to craft a solid argument. But you don’t. Your continued references to Isaiah 53 — the significance of which, yes, we Lutherans all understand, as did Luther — make no sense as a charge against Luther as an anti-Semite. But you’re ignorant of what Luther wrote about Isaiah, aren’t you, Grace? You’d have to be, to write what you write.

    “If your beliefs cannot stand up to scrutiny then you cry as to why someone who disagrees with you is on this blog.” Oh, please. Nearly everyone on this blog disagrees with me in at least one way. The founder of this blog and I have some very fundamental disagreements, at least on some points. But he (and many others here) is capable of making reasonable arguments. He knows what he’s talking about. I respect people like that, even if I disagree with them. The problem is that you assume that you are making credible, informed, intellectually honest arguments like Dr. Veith and others here do. You are not. If you knew more about what you’re talking about, you would realize how little credibility your arguments have. But you don’t know enough to know that.

  • Tom Hering

    I did a little looking around for anti-Lutheran sites. The strangest is the one that claims Luther died of auto-erotic asphyxiation. Strangled by Katharina! The author says he’s no expert on perversions, but he knows how monks and nuns end up when they break their vows of chastity. Blech. Do you really want to be counted among people like that, Grace?

  • Tom Hering

    I did a little looking around for anti-Lutheran sites. The strangest is the one that claims Luther died of auto-erotic asphyxiation. Strangled by Katharina! The author says he’s no expert on perversions, but he knows how monks and nuns end up when they break their vows of chastity. Blech. Do you really want to be counted among people like that, Grace?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Tom (@56), if you do strict Google searches on Grace’s quotes (with quotes around large chunks of words), you can generally figure out where Grace gets her quotes (hint: it’s pretty clearly not from her own reading of original documents).

    For instance, note how she cites her quote (@20):

    Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527

    Now look at this Google search, in particular the first result it returns. Of course, the many pages in those search results likely crib quotes from each other like so many spammy email forwards or collections of “inspirational” quotes. But is it mere coincidence that Grace’s quote begins and ends at the exact same place that that pro-Catholic site’s quote does? And they cite the quote the exact same way?

    And what should we make of the fact that, once again, Grace finds common cause with Catholics? She decries them when it suits her purpose, but copies and pastes their unfounded accusations when it suits her, as well.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Tom (@56), if you do strict Google searches on Grace’s quotes (with quotes around large chunks of words), you can generally figure out where Grace gets her quotes (hint: it’s pretty clearly not from her own reading of original documents).

    For instance, note how she cites her quote (@20):

    Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527

    Now look at this Google search, in particular the first result it returns. Of course, the many pages in those search results likely crib quotes from each other like so many spammy email forwards or collections of “inspirational” quotes. But is it mere coincidence that Grace’s quote begins and ends at the exact same place that that pro-Catholic site’s quote does? And they cite the quote the exact same way?

    And what should we make of the fact that, once again, Grace finds common cause with Catholics? She decries them when it suits her purpose, but copies and pastes their unfounded accusations when it suits her, as well.

  • WebMonk

    Tom and tODD. I have no doubt people study all sorts of things, but the result of ones learning will depend a great deal on what a person studies. The the sources that one studies are flawed, skewed, and wrong, then it doesn’t really matter how much a person studies, they will never learn anything truthful.

    I know (IRL) a couple of genuine crackpots (9/11 conspiracy) – they study their “field” incessantly and yet they never learn anything new because all their sources of study support the same conspiracy theory. They never study anything that challenges their views, and so when they interact with people who disagree, the results are rather odd – they are extremely expert in spouting facts which are false.

    There are mental issues at work that make these sorts of people virtually unreachable by things like common sense or basic facts. Once they have a set of “facts” (Jews were warned ahead of time about the 9/11 attacks) there is nothing you can do to correct them.

    Rather sadly, I had a discussion with one of the guys I know in which I was able to show him that there was no evidence to that particular claim. I felt rather good about myself for that tiny step. About six months later I had another discussion with him on the topic and he repeated that claim, to my shock! When I reminded him we had already seen that it was a false claim, he stated he had found proof with further research since last time we talked. When I asked, he showed me a website that we hadn’t looked at before, in which a person made the claim that Jews had been forewarned, and made it without any supporting evidence. Based on that single, unsupported statement my friend had gone back and re-accepted the false claim.

    There are some mental issues with that sort of mindset that refuses to learn, even when shown the clearest of evidence. There is some sort of selective blindness that blocks a person from seeing how nonsensical their own claims and positions are. “Proof” can be extracted from quotes even when the context shows the quote meant the exact opposite of what they are claiming.

    To me, that sort of mindset makes it completely useless to discuss some things with those people.

    IMO, Grace falls in that same sort of category on this whole “Luther” topic. No amount of reason, talk, or evidence will ever suffice to show her that her views are deeply flawed on the topic. No amount of pointing out the nonsense, false statements, or out of context quotes she uses in her “proof” will ever effect a change in her.

    It’s not something that can be “educated” to correct a person – it’s a mental block.

    Point out in the comments enough so that readers who might read the thread will recognize Grace’s tripe for what it is, but don’t feel that it is possible to actually show her the errors of her views – it’s not possible. There are mental issues at work, not educational ones.

  • WebMonk

    Tom and tODD. I have no doubt people study all sorts of things, but the result of ones learning will depend a great deal on what a person studies. The the sources that one studies are flawed, skewed, and wrong, then it doesn’t really matter how much a person studies, they will never learn anything truthful.

    I know (IRL) a couple of genuine crackpots (9/11 conspiracy) – they study their “field” incessantly and yet they never learn anything new because all their sources of study support the same conspiracy theory. They never study anything that challenges their views, and so when they interact with people who disagree, the results are rather odd – they are extremely expert in spouting facts which are false.

    There are mental issues at work that make these sorts of people virtually unreachable by things like common sense or basic facts. Once they have a set of “facts” (Jews were warned ahead of time about the 9/11 attacks) there is nothing you can do to correct them.

    Rather sadly, I had a discussion with one of the guys I know in which I was able to show him that there was no evidence to that particular claim. I felt rather good about myself for that tiny step. About six months later I had another discussion with him on the topic and he repeated that claim, to my shock! When I reminded him we had already seen that it was a false claim, he stated he had found proof with further research since last time we talked. When I asked, he showed me a website that we hadn’t looked at before, in which a person made the claim that Jews had been forewarned, and made it without any supporting evidence. Based on that single, unsupported statement my friend had gone back and re-accepted the false claim.

    There are some mental issues with that sort of mindset that refuses to learn, even when shown the clearest of evidence. There is some sort of selective blindness that blocks a person from seeing how nonsensical their own claims and positions are. “Proof” can be extracted from quotes even when the context shows the quote meant the exact opposite of what they are claiming.

    To me, that sort of mindset makes it completely useless to discuss some things with those people.

    IMO, Grace falls in that same sort of category on this whole “Luther” topic. No amount of reason, talk, or evidence will ever suffice to show her that her views are deeply flawed on the topic. No amount of pointing out the nonsense, false statements, or out of context quotes she uses in her “proof” will ever effect a change in her.

    It’s not something that can be “educated” to correct a person – it’s a mental block.

    Point out in the comments enough so that readers who might read the thread will recognize Grace’s tripe for what it is, but don’t feel that it is possible to actually show her the errors of her views – it’s not possible. There are mental issues at work, not educational ones.

  • Tom Hering

    Todd @ 57, yeah, like Doc proposed @ 43. To which Grace responded @ 44, “You have some silly idea that everyone who does research flips through ‘random quotes’ – how wrong you are!” Well, maybe not so wrong after all!

    As for the RC thing, Grace is a believer in works-righteousness: “The Bible clearly states that man is not justified by faith alone …” (comment #150 in the “Iraqi Christians” thread). So it’s not surprising she finds common cause with RC extremists.

  • Tom Hering

    Todd @ 57, yeah, like Doc proposed @ 43. To which Grace responded @ 44, “You have some silly idea that everyone who does research flips through ‘random quotes’ – how wrong you are!” Well, maybe not so wrong after all!

    As for the RC thing, Grace is a believer in works-righteousness: “The Bible clearly states that man is not justified by faith alone …” (comment #150 in the “Iraqi Christians” thread). So it’s not surprising she finds common cause with RC extremists.

  • Tom Hering

    WebMonk @ 58, you mean “Loose Change” isn’t real? Oh well. Like Santa Claus, another myth bites the dust in my adulthood. How much disillusion am I expected to take!

  • Tom Hering

    WebMonk @ 58, you mean “Loose Change” isn’t real? Oh well. Like Santa Claus, another myth bites the dust in my adulthood. How much disillusion am I expected to take!

  • Tom Hering

    Bob @ 61, that’s certainly “best construction.” And I wish it were so. But the whole thrust of her argument (such as it was) in that thread proved otherwise. As Todd pointed out there, James norms Romans in Grace’s interpretation of Scripture, not the other way around.

  • Tom Hering

    Bob @ 61, that’s certainly “best construction.” And I wish it were so. But the whole thrust of her argument (such as it was) in that thread proved otherwise. As Todd pointed out there, James norms Romans in Grace’s interpretation of Scripture, not the other way around.

  • Tom Hering

    Besides, Luther didn’t add “alone” to Romans. Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” “Alone” is just another way of saying “apart from” (separated, without). :-)

  • Tom Hering

    Besides, Luther didn’t add “alone” to Romans. Romans 3:28, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” “Alone” is just another way of saying “apart from” (separated, without). :-)

  • Joanne

    Y’all are going to be in so much trouble when Grace comes back.

  • Joanne

    Y’all are going to be in so much trouble when Grace comes back.

  • Tom Hering

    Bring it. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    Bring it. :-D

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I am so scared :)

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    I am so scared :)

  • Grace

    I have not read all the ‘stuff’ you people have written today, but glanced over some of the drivel. I have been saving the piece below for just such an occasion:

    Below, a link to an interesting paper, written by Peter F. Wiener “Martin Luther Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor.” Wiener has also written other works such as “GERMAN FOR THE SCIENTIST” and ‘GERMAN WITH TEARS”

    Martin Luther Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor

    By
    Peter F. Wiener
    Author of

    GERMAN FOR THE SCIENTIST
    GERMAN WITH TEARS

    HUTCHINSON & Co. (Publishers) LTD.
    LONDON : NEW YORK : MELBOURNE : SYDNEY

    DEDICATED
    TO
    The Right Honourable
    LORD VANSITTART OF Denham, p.c.,
    IN RESPECT, GRATITUDE, AND FRIENDSHIP

    MADE AND PRINTED IN GREAT BRITAIN
    AT GAINESBOROUGH PRESS ST. ALBANS,
    BY FISHER, KNIGHT & CO., LTD

    “I do insist on the certainty that sooner or later—once we hold power—Christianity will be overcome and the German church, without a Pope and without the Bible, and Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.”

    ADOLF HITLER
    (“Hitler’s Speeches”, edited by Professor N. H. Baynes (Oxford, 1942), page 369).

    “If we wish to find a scapegoat on whose shoulders we may lay the miseries which Germany has brought upon the world—not, perhaps a very scientific way of writing history—I am more and more convinced that the worst evil genius of that country is not Hitler or Bismarck or Frederick the Great, but Martin Luther.”

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html

  • Grace

    I have not read all the ‘stuff’ you people have written today, but glanced over some of the drivel. I have been saving the piece below for just such an occasion:

    Below, a link to an interesting paper, written by Peter F. Wiener “Martin Luther Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor.” Wiener has also written other works such as “GERMAN FOR THE SCIENTIST” and ‘GERMAN WITH TEARS”

    Martin Luther Hitler’s Spiritual Ancestor

    By
    Peter F. Wiener
    Author of

    GERMAN FOR THE SCIENTIST
    GERMAN WITH TEARS

    HUTCHINSON & Co. (Publishers) LTD.
    LONDON : NEW YORK : MELBOURNE : SYDNEY

    DEDICATED
    TO
    The Right Honourable
    LORD VANSITTART OF Denham, p.c.,
    IN RESPECT, GRATITUDE, AND FRIENDSHIP

    MADE AND PRINTED IN GREAT BRITAIN
    AT GAINESBOROUGH PRESS ST. ALBANS,
    BY FISHER, KNIGHT & CO., LTD

    “I do insist on the certainty that sooner or later—once we hold power—Christianity will be overcome and the German church, without a Pope and without the Bible, and Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.”

    ADOLF HITLER
    (“Hitler’s Speeches”, edited by Professor N. H. Baynes (Oxford, 1942), page 369).

    “If we wish to find a scapegoat on whose shoulders we may lay the miseries which Germany has brought upon the world—not, perhaps a very scientific way of writing history—I am more and more convinced that the worst evil genius of that country is not Hitler or Bismarck or Frederick the Great, but Martin Luther.”

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpiritualAncestor.html

  • Grace

    The quote from post #67, according to TIME MAGAZINE was written by William Ralph Inge, 1944.

    TIME MAGAZINE
    Religion: Luther Is to Blame
    Monday, Nov. 06, 1944

    William Ralph Inge, now 84 and ten years retired as Dean of London’s St. Paul’s, rarely breaks into public print nowadays. But when he does, the “Gloomy Dean” is as pungent and provocative as ever. In the Churchman last fortnight he wrote:

    “If we wish to find a scapegoat on whose shoulders we may lay the miseries which Germany has brought upon the world . . . I am more and more convinced that the worst evil genius of that country is not Hitler or Bismarck or Frederick the Great, but Martin Luther. . . . Lutheranism is essentially German. … It worships a God who is neither just nor merciful. . . . The Law of Nature, which ought to be the court of appeal against unjust authority, is identified with the existing order of society, to which absolute obedience is due. . . . We must hope that the next swing of the pendulum will put an end to Luther’s influence in Germany.”

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,803412,00.html

  • Grace

    The quote from post #67, according to TIME MAGAZINE was written by William Ralph Inge, 1944.

    TIME MAGAZINE
    Religion: Luther Is to Blame
    Monday, Nov. 06, 1944

    William Ralph Inge, now 84 and ten years retired as Dean of London’s St. Paul’s, rarely breaks into public print nowadays. But when he does, the “Gloomy Dean” is as pungent and provocative as ever. In the Churchman last fortnight he wrote:

    “If we wish to find a scapegoat on whose shoulders we may lay the miseries which Germany has brought upon the world . . . I am more and more convinced that the worst evil genius of that country is not Hitler or Bismarck or Frederick the Great, but Martin Luther. . . . Lutheranism is essentially German. … It worships a God who is neither just nor merciful. . . . The Law of Nature, which ought to be the court of appeal against unjust authority, is identified with the existing order of society, to which absolute obedience is due. . . . We must hope that the next swing of the pendulum will put an end to Luther’s influence in Germany.”

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,803412,00.html

  • Stephen

    And Heinrich Himmler distributed the little tract you linked to among his SS officers. Yes, the Nazis used Luther to great effect it would seem. The Jewish scholar Raul Hilberg who has detailed the entire bureaucracy that carried out the atrocities of the Holocaust traces the seeds of German anti-semitism all the way to Dr. Luther. Not everyone agrees with him, but he makes a pretty strong case.

    So what? Whatever is your actual point Grace? What about Lonnie Frisbee and his shenanigans, carrying on while he was busy baptizing and growing your beloved Calvary Chapel? Do you listen to the sermons of people brought to faith in Christ by that sinner? Must we all be as pure as the driven snow to do anything of value. Jacob was a mess, but God used him. Matthew was a vile tax collector. Paul participated in the murder of Stephen.

    This is silly, unloving and very unlovely of you Grace. Are you here to witness to Lutherans about Luther and tell them things they don’t know. If so, you are failing miserably. Are you here to show us that works are valuable to helping in our salvation? You’re failing there too, or at least I would not count on your particular witness as some model to follow because you are unforgiving and unmerciful to many it would seem. Measure for measure. Live by your works and have fun doing so.

    But I don’t think you are here for any of those reasons. Why does this get you all riled up? Perhaps because you cannot imagine a God who would love anyone so much that He could possibly use an abject sinner to accomplish His purposes, and what if, if, if He actually could, does and has. Well if not, then we are all done for. But it is not because we sin or not that God does what He does for us, it is because of who God is. And he has shown that in Jesus Christ. That Christ loves and died for you, me, Martin Luther, Lonnie Frisbee, and all the Lutherans and “Frisbee-ites” who ever lived. And he promised salvation to all who trust in him. I learned that through generations of Lutherans from Martin Luther. Go figure.

    Some awfully sadistic people have used the Holy Scriptures to justify terrible sins against others. The FBI reports that the most common catalyst for serial killers to get them excited for their killing sprees is not pornography, it’s the Bible itself. Crazy people love it! Shall we pitch them out now?

    What do you need? Is there something you aren’t getting, some word, some response you seek? All I have to say to you is that we are all utterly at the mercy of God. And what does he do? He gives us the full measure of that mercy in Jesus Christ. It is there for you. It is there for all of us. Luther trusted in that as far as we could ever know and he taught others that same word. What else is needed?

  • Stephen

    And Heinrich Himmler distributed the little tract you linked to among his SS officers. Yes, the Nazis used Luther to great effect it would seem. The Jewish scholar Raul Hilberg who has detailed the entire bureaucracy that carried out the atrocities of the Holocaust traces the seeds of German anti-semitism all the way to Dr. Luther. Not everyone agrees with him, but he makes a pretty strong case.

    So what? Whatever is your actual point Grace? What about Lonnie Frisbee and his shenanigans, carrying on while he was busy baptizing and growing your beloved Calvary Chapel? Do you listen to the sermons of people brought to faith in Christ by that sinner? Must we all be as pure as the driven snow to do anything of value. Jacob was a mess, but God used him. Matthew was a vile tax collector. Paul participated in the murder of Stephen.

    This is silly, unloving and very unlovely of you Grace. Are you here to witness to Lutherans about Luther and tell them things they don’t know. If so, you are failing miserably. Are you here to show us that works are valuable to helping in our salvation? You’re failing there too, or at least I would not count on your particular witness as some model to follow because you are unforgiving and unmerciful to many it would seem. Measure for measure. Live by your works and have fun doing so.

    But I don’t think you are here for any of those reasons. Why does this get you all riled up? Perhaps because you cannot imagine a God who would love anyone so much that He could possibly use an abject sinner to accomplish His purposes, and what if, if, if He actually could, does and has. Well if not, then we are all done for. But it is not because we sin or not that God does what He does for us, it is because of who God is. And he has shown that in Jesus Christ. That Christ loves and died for you, me, Martin Luther, Lonnie Frisbee, and all the Lutherans and “Frisbee-ites” who ever lived. And he promised salvation to all who trust in him. I learned that through generations of Lutherans from Martin Luther. Go figure.

    Some awfully sadistic people have used the Holy Scriptures to justify terrible sins against others. The FBI reports that the most common catalyst for serial killers to get them excited for their killing sprees is not pornography, it’s the Bible itself. Crazy people love it! Shall we pitch them out now?

    What do you need? Is there something you aren’t getting, some word, some response you seek? All I have to say to you is that we are all utterly at the mercy of God. And what does he do? He gives us the full measure of that mercy in Jesus Christ. It is there for you. It is there for all of us. Luther trusted in that as far as we could ever know and he taught others that same word. What else is needed?

  • Tom Hering

    Does anyone still care to give Grace the benefit of the doubt – that she’s not a venomous anti-Lutheran bigot?

    Hmm?

  • Tom Hering

    Does anyone still care to give Grace the benefit of the doubt – that she’s not a venomous anti-Lutheran bigot?

    Hmm?

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Grace, I told you ain’t gonna waste my time on your red-herrings.

    Ok may be a little time, because I can’t resist trying to educate. I am guessing you don’t know this but it was Lutherans who took a stand in Germany against Hitler.
    You know guys like Herman Sasse -””we would like to know whether the church is permitted to preach the Gospel in the 3rd Reich without hindrance, whether, that is, we will be able to continue undisturbed with our insults to the Germanic or Germanistic moral sense, as with God’s help we intend to do.”

    Or do you care to know Lutherans were thrown into the concentration camps because they dared defy the Nazi party. I personally know Lutheran concentration camp survivors and you sicken me by perpetuating the myth that we are to blame for Hitler’s insanity.

    hmm… tentmaker.org they publish works denying the reality of Hell and you accuse of us of being unbiblical. OY!

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Grace, I told you ain’t gonna waste my time on your red-herrings.

    Ok may be a little time, because I can’t resist trying to educate. I am guessing you don’t know this but it was Lutherans who took a stand in Germany against Hitler.
    You know guys like Herman Sasse -””we would like to know whether the church is permitted to preach the Gospel in the 3rd Reich without hindrance, whether, that is, we will be able to continue undisturbed with our insults to the Germanic or Germanistic moral sense, as with God’s help we intend to do.”

    Or do you care to know Lutherans were thrown into the concentration camps because they dared defy the Nazi party. I personally know Lutheran concentration camp survivors and you sicken me by perpetuating the myth that we are to blame for Hitler’s insanity.

    hmm… tentmaker.org they publish works denying the reality of Hell and you accuse of us of being unbiblical. OY!

  • Stephen

    Maybe she’s a Veith plant, here to ferret out all the less-confessional types! HA!

  • Stephen

    Maybe she’s a Veith plant, here to ferret out all the less-confessional types! HA!

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot Brigitte

    Grace announces to us again, what she all has not read. I wonder if Luther and the Germans are also to blame for the US trillions of dollar debt, etc.

    Uwe Simon Netto has show in his book “The Fabricated Luther” that just such racial and bigoted sentiment caused the British not to support the German underground. In this sense some well -placed people’s bigotry and racial slur supported Hitler and his and continuation of the war. Grace, I also recommend this book to you. Something else for your reading list.

    If this was your best one, are you done now? and we can talk about the Bible? like you said you would? It would be so much more interesting and helpful.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot Brigitte

    Grace announces to us again, what she all has not read. I wonder if Luther and the Germans are also to blame for the US trillions of dollar debt, etc.

    Uwe Simon Netto has show in his book “The Fabricated Luther” that just such racial and bigoted sentiment caused the British not to support the German underground. In this sense some well -placed people’s bigotry and racial slur supported Hitler and his and continuation of the war. Grace, I also recommend this book to you. Something else for your reading list.

    If this was your best one, are you done now? and we can talk about the Bible? like you said you would? It would be so much more interesting and helpful.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Don’t hold your breath Bridgitte, I am still waiting for Grace to read the BoC and find an unbiblical teaching.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Don’t hold your breath Bridgitte, I am still waiting for Grace to read the BoC and find an unbiblical teaching.

  • Tom Hering

    Brigitte @ 73, Grace is not interested in discussing anything. We have thread after thread as proof of that. WebMonk is right that no one can reason with her. Because you can’t reason with a bigot. They’ve passed the point of no return, mentally. No matter how many well-reasoned arguments we make, no matter how much we speak the truth in love, Grace will simply continue to vomit all over Luther and Lutherans. And all we can do is buy umbrellas. And poke her with the pointy ends. Hard. ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    Brigitte @ 73, Grace is not interested in discussing anything. We have thread after thread as proof of that. WebMonk is right that no one can reason with her. Because you can’t reason with a bigot. They’ve passed the point of no return, mentally. No matter how many well-reasoned arguments we make, no matter how much we speak the truth in love, Grace will simply continue to vomit all over Luther and Lutherans. And all we can do is buy umbrellas. And poke her with the pointy ends. Hard. ;-)

  • WebMonk

    Tom, one of the more fun things you can do with bigots is get them all spun up and watch the hilarity that ensues. Without even realizing it, they do their own “side” more harm than you could possibly do and it can be entertaining to boot.

    For example, she just proudly announced that she didn’t bother to read most of what had posted since she last checked, and yet went forward, proud of her ignorance, and posted more “arguments”! If you made up a story of something so imbecilic, people would say you were making up ridiculous nonsense that would never really happen.

  • WebMonk

    Tom, one of the more fun things you can do with bigots is get them all spun up and watch the hilarity that ensues. Without even realizing it, they do their own “side” more harm than you could possibly do and it can be entertaining to boot.

    For example, she just proudly announced that she didn’t bother to read most of what had posted since she last checked, and yet went forward, proud of her ignorance, and posted more “arguments”! If you made up a story of something so imbecilic, people would say you were making up ridiculous nonsense that would never really happen.

  • Joanne

    Lutheranism has been a remnant religion in Germany since ca 1750 to the present. The various fashions of liberal theology, the moderns of their day, visited Germany in succession and were dutifully implemented by the various state churches and tried out on the locals. The gradual movement of Germany from a collection of little princedoms to a nation state kept the state churches in organizational upheaval for 100 years. If a pastor wanted to preach old fashoned, out-dated religious ideas, school teachers or circuit visitors would complain. Many pastors who wanted to follow the unapproved, old Lutheran ways, would immigrate to America or Australia where the state did not control the content of church sermons. Still, there are surviving, very small (50,000 member) old Lutheran churches in Germany today, and it was the same at the beginning of WWII in 1939.
    Hitler grew up in a Roman Catholic family in Austria, a Catholic country with few protestants. When he moved to Germany as an adult, he lived in the Catholic city of Munich where there are few protestants. It would have been very unlikely that a Catholic or a Protestant would have put any writings of Luther in Hitler’s hands. Still, if Hitler says that Luther was his spiritual guide, then it must be true, but he doesn’t say that does he?
    Hitler never gave a fig for the salvation of the Jews, for the conversion of the Jews. Luther said the Jews had to go, burn down the synagogs, take away their houses unless … unless they converted to their real Messiah, the one who is actually their cousin. Then of course, as converted Christians, they’d be our brothers in the faith and equal to us in God’s plan of salvation.
    I don’t think Hitler cared where the souls of the Jews went.
    I think that if Luther had been Hitler’s spiritual father, he would probably have been a Lutheran pastor in Australia preaching Law and Gospel to farmers.

  • Joanne

    Lutheranism has been a remnant religion in Germany since ca 1750 to the present. The various fashions of liberal theology, the moderns of their day, visited Germany in succession and were dutifully implemented by the various state churches and tried out on the locals. The gradual movement of Germany from a collection of little princedoms to a nation state kept the state churches in organizational upheaval for 100 years. If a pastor wanted to preach old fashoned, out-dated religious ideas, school teachers or circuit visitors would complain. Many pastors who wanted to follow the unapproved, old Lutheran ways, would immigrate to America or Australia where the state did not control the content of church sermons. Still, there are surviving, very small (50,000 member) old Lutheran churches in Germany today, and it was the same at the beginning of WWII in 1939.
    Hitler grew up in a Roman Catholic family in Austria, a Catholic country with few protestants. When he moved to Germany as an adult, he lived in the Catholic city of Munich where there are few protestants. It would have been very unlikely that a Catholic or a Protestant would have put any writings of Luther in Hitler’s hands. Still, if Hitler says that Luther was his spiritual guide, then it must be true, but he doesn’t say that does he?
    Hitler never gave a fig for the salvation of the Jews, for the conversion of the Jews. Luther said the Jews had to go, burn down the synagogs, take away their houses unless … unless they converted to their real Messiah, the one who is actually their cousin. Then of course, as converted Christians, they’d be our brothers in the faith and equal to us in God’s plan of salvation.
    I don’t think Hitler cared where the souls of the Jews went.
    I think that if Luther had been Hitler’s spiritual father, he would probably have been a Lutheran pastor in Australia preaching Law and Gospel to farmers.

  • Stephen

    Very nice Joanne. Both my great grandfathers were missionaries to the German settlers in the US in the 1800s as part of the early Missouri Lutherans that came here to avoid being lumped together with the Calvinists under the state church.

    I read a couple of Raul Hilberg’s books in school. Kind of devastating actually. His scholarship is unrelenting in detail. If anyone has made a case against a culture, that guy is well on the way. But I think Himmler used Luther the same way they used anything German – as a way to incite nationalism. My reading of it is that Luther’s all but forgotten diatribe gave some needed religious cache to their project. It had nothing to do with inculcating any other faith than faith in the Reich and its Fuhrer. Anyone ever notice the cross Hitler ALWAYS wore? He got it for serving in WW1 and being wounded. It took lots of precisely orchestrated ritual and symbolism to place that kind of power into one human being and make him into a god. Anything that added to the theater of it was employed with the most supreme artistry. Old Adam loves, adores, revels in religion for its own sake, the sake of an ideal. He will kill for it in order to worship his own power. Sounds like works righteousness to me on a grand and sinister scale.

    Perhaps it is a lesson in how governments use what the church says or does to its own ends more than anything else. Thanks for the history lesson. Very cool.

  • Stephen

    Very nice Joanne. Both my great grandfathers were missionaries to the German settlers in the US in the 1800s as part of the early Missouri Lutherans that came here to avoid being lumped together with the Calvinists under the state church.

    I read a couple of Raul Hilberg’s books in school. Kind of devastating actually. His scholarship is unrelenting in detail. If anyone has made a case against a culture, that guy is well on the way. But I think Himmler used Luther the same way they used anything German – as a way to incite nationalism. My reading of it is that Luther’s all but forgotten diatribe gave some needed religious cache to their project. It had nothing to do with inculcating any other faith than faith in the Reich and its Fuhrer. Anyone ever notice the cross Hitler ALWAYS wore? He got it for serving in WW1 and being wounded. It took lots of precisely orchestrated ritual and symbolism to place that kind of power into one human being and make him into a god. Anything that added to the theater of it was employed with the most supreme artistry. Old Adam loves, adores, revels in religion for its own sake, the sake of an ideal. He will kill for it in order to worship his own power. Sounds like works righteousness to me on a grand and sinister scale.

    Perhaps it is a lesson in how governments use what the church says or does to its own ends more than anything else. Thanks for the history lesson. Very cool.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Right you are, Joanne. Grace and anyone else who believes that Luther’s writings were the impetus for anti-semitism in Germany, read Uwe Siemon-Netto’s “The Fabricated Luther.”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Right you are, Joanne. Grace and anyone else who believes that Luther’s writings were the impetus for anti-semitism in Germany, read Uwe Siemon-Netto’s “The Fabricated Luther.”

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith,

    There are other pieces and books written with the intention of making a plausable excuse for Martin Luther, his book “The Jews and their Lies” – however, there is no excuse. It takes time to write such a dispicable little book, and then it takes even more time to have it printed and distributed. If there were any mistake, it would have never been printed, nor would it be read today, in total disgust and astonishment.

    Hitler thought very highly of Martin Luther, as he stated:

    “To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    Hitler was not a novice to Luther’s book, nor were others in Germany, and I might add the Christian community at large in the year 2010. Many Christians are learned in Christian history,…. for those who make the mistake that other Believers are not aware of the past, are unwise. Covering up the past, or making excuses for it, only disgraces the situation further.

    I have done extensive research regarding WW2. That isn’t to say that I’m an expert, but I certainly don’t consider “The Fabricated Luther.” to be a credible source to base my beliefs.

    Comments such as:

    “I think that if Luther had been Hitler’s spiritual father, he would probably have been a Lutheran pastor in Australia preaching Law and Gospel to farmers.”

    – - do not serve any purpose, except to further show how more often than not, cradle Lutherans, just like cradle Roman Catholics turn a blind eye on reality, and refer to story telling.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith,

    There are other pieces and books written with the intention of making a plausable excuse for Martin Luther, his book “The Jews and their Lies” – however, there is no excuse. It takes time to write such a dispicable little book, and then it takes even more time to have it printed and distributed. If there were any mistake, it would have never been printed, nor would it be read today, in total disgust and astonishment.

    Hitler thought very highly of Martin Luther, as he stated:

    “To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    Hitler was not a novice to Luther’s book, nor were others in Germany, and I might add the Christian community at large in the year 2010. Many Christians are learned in Christian history,…. for those who make the mistake that other Believers are not aware of the past, are unwise. Covering up the past, or making excuses for it, only disgraces the situation further.

    I have done extensive research regarding WW2. That isn’t to say that I’m an expert, but I certainly don’t consider “The Fabricated Luther.” to be a credible source to base my beliefs.

    Comments such as:

    “I think that if Luther had been Hitler’s spiritual father, he would probably have been a Lutheran pastor in Australia preaching Law and Gospel to farmers.”

    – - do not serve any purpose, except to further show how more often than not, cradle Lutherans, just like cradle Roman Catholics turn a blind eye on reality, and refer to story telling.

  • Tom Hering

    Well, one good thing anyways. Grace has now used up all of the most common attacks on Luther. From those that are true, i.e., Luther wrote a rotten little book about the Jews, to those that are demonstrably false, i.e., (1.) Luther twisted the Scriptures, and (2.) Luther’s theological anti-Judaism was responsible for the Nazi’s racial anti-Semitism. We’re unlikely to again hear Grace say, “I have been saving the piece below for just such an occasion.” Which is a good thing, because my stomach hurts. I haven’t stopped laughing out loud, yet, at the thought that Grace believed she was dropping a bombshell in our midst, i.e., the Luther/Hitler slander. Yeah, none of us have ever heard that one before.

    Grace has also used up all of the most common attacks on Lutherans. Again, from those that are true, i.e., we generally admire Luther (“put him on a pedestal”), to those that are demonstrably false, i.e., (1.) we make Luther equal to Christ, and (2.) we make our Confessions equal to Scripture.

    So, what’s left for Grace to employ? Pretty much just the fringe stuff, like Katharina strangling Martin in a “woo-hoo-hoo” moment. Despite my aching guts, I can hardly wait for the new fun to begin. ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    Well, one good thing anyways. Grace has now used up all of the most common attacks on Luther. From those that are true, i.e., Luther wrote a rotten little book about the Jews, to those that are demonstrably false, i.e., (1.) Luther twisted the Scriptures, and (2.) Luther’s theological anti-Judaism was responsible for the Nazi’s racial anti-Semitism. We’re unlikely to again hear Grace say, “I have been saving the piece below for just such an occasion.” Which is a good thing, because my stomach hurts. I haven’t stopped laughing out loud, yet, at the thought that Grace believed she was dropping a bombshell in our midst, i.e., the Luther/Hitler slander. Yeah, none of us have ever heard that one before.

    Grace has also used up all of the most common attacks on Lutherans. Again, from those that are true, i.e., we generally admire Luther (“put him on a pedestal”), to those that are demonstrably false, i.e., (1.) we make Luther equal to Christ, and (2.) we make our Confessions equal to Scripture.

    So, what’s left for Grace to employ? Pretty much just the fringe stuff, like Katharina strangling Martin in a “woo-hoo-hoo” moment. Despite my aching guts, I can hardly wait for the new fun to begin. ;-)

  • kerner

    Grace:

    There is no excuse for “the Jews and their lies”. There may be explanations, but no excuses.

    Luther did some truly heroic things in his defense of the Gospel and God’s Word. In a small fraction of his writings he (along with others of his time) managed to capture doctrines based on Scripture alone and defend them from the Roman Catholics as well as from other protestants who were misinterpreting Scripture.

    But Luther was as sinful as anyone else and many of his writings reflect this. The fact is that many of Luther’s writings contradict each other. His opinion changed over time. Joanne @40 cites some of Luther’s earlier writings about Jews which are quite different from what you have been quoting. Hitler would not have agreed with Luther in 1523, and you might have with Luther (I don’t know if you read Joanne’s link or not).

    But all of this is a lot of futility. All of us know that you can take any pastor, teacher or other servant of God ever born (except Jesus) and I mean anyone, my father or yours, famous people, anyone; and if you stack up their sins against the times God has used them for His pruposes, the stack of sins is always many times higher than the God honoring deeds. Luther’s sins were often committed in print, so we know what they are. But in this he is no different from anyone else who ever served God.

    Look, I am not a cradle Lutheran. I have been to a lot of Christian Churches (including Calvary Chapel) that claimed to believe and support the Word of God as the foundation for their doctrine. And the funny thing is that they disagreed about a lot of things. I have settled on Lutheran doctrine because the Lutheran Confessions are the clearest statement of what the Bible actually says being taught today. There are plenty of churches out there that say they teach what the Bible says (including, IMO, yours) but they really don’t.

    And I don’t mind that you come here and challenge our beliefs, because if we can’t defend them from Scripture we shouldn’t believe them. But you so rarely challenge what we actually believe. Instead you choose to rub our faces in the sins of a man who wrote part of our doctrinal statement.

    We know Luther was a sinner, and when we are aware of his sins we condemn them. But Luther’s sins are beside the point. The point is the Bible and whether the Lutheran Confessions are really in accord with it. Have you got anything to say on point?

  • kerner

    Grace:

    There is no excuse for “the Jews and their lies”. There may be explanations, but no excuses.

    Luther did some truly heroic things in his defense of the Gospel and God’s Word. In a small fraction of his writings he (along with others of his time) managed to capture doctrines based on Scripture alone and defend them from the Roman Catholics as well as from other protestants who were misinterpreting Scripture.

    But Luther was as sinful as anyone else and many of his writings reflect this. The fact is that many of Luther’s writings contradict each other. His opinion changed over time. Joanne @40 cites some of Luther’s earlier writings about Jews which are quite different from what you have been quoting. Hitler would not have agreed with Luther in 1523, and you might have with Luther (I don’t know if you read Joanne’s link or not).

    But all of this is a lot of futility. All of us know that you can take any pastor, teacher or other servant of God ever born (except Jesus) and I mean anyone, my father or yours, famous people, anyone; and if you stack up their sins against the times God has used them for His pruposes, the stack of sins is always many times higher than the God honoring deeds. Luther’s sins were often committed in print, so we know what they are. But in this he is no different from anyone else who ever served God.

    Look, I am not a cradle Lutheran. I have been to a lot of Christian Churches (including Calvary Chapel) that claimed to believe and support the Word of God as the foundation for their doctrine. And the funny thing is that they disagreed about a lot of things. I have settled on Lutheran doctrine because the Lutheran Confessions are the clearest statement of what the Bible actually says being taught today. There are plenty of churches out there that say they teach what the Bible says (including, IMO, yours) but they really don’t.

    And I don’t mind that you come here and challenge our beliefs, because if we can’t defend them from Scripture we shouldn’t believe them. But you so rarely challenge what we actually believe. Instead you choose to rub our faces in the sins of a man who wrote part of our doctrinal statement.

    We know Luther was a sinner, and when we are aware of his sins we condemn them. But Luther’s sins are beside the point. The point is the Bible and whether the Lutheran Confessions are really in accord with it. Have you got anything to say on point?

  • Tom Hering

    Good morning, kerner. It promises to be another beautiful and interesting day, eh? :-D

  • Tom Hering

    Good morning, kerner. It promises to be another beautiful and interesting day, eh? :-D

  • kerner

    Tom @83:

    And Good morning to you sir. Interesting but wet in my neighborhood.

  • kerner

    Tom @83:

    And Good morning to you sir. Interesting but wet in my neighborhood.

  • WebMonk

    Tom, I laughed that that “saving the piece below for just such an occasion” too. Especially considering what had immediately preceded that sentence – her statement that she hadn’t bothered to read anything that had been said before.

    So, she had been saving that piece for a time when she hadn’t read anything and she needed to say something regardless of what had been said before?!?

    You just can’t make that sort of stuff up!

    In the words of the immortal bunny, “What a maroon!”

  • WebMonk

    Tom, I laughed that that “saving the piece below for just such an occasion” too. Especially considering what had immediately preceded that sentence – her statement that she hadn’t bothered to read anything that had been said before.

    So, she had been saving that piece for a time when she hadn’t read anything and she needed to say something regardless of what had been said before?!?

    You just can’t make that sort of stuff up!

    In the words of the immortal bunny, “What a maroon!”

  • Tom Hering

    Oh, WebMonk, it’s best we not pay too much attention to Grace’s absurdities. That way lies madness. One can only look upon Medusa in a mirror.

  • Tom Hering

    Oh, WebMonk, it’s best we not pay too much attention to Grace’s absurdities. That way lies madness. One can only look upon Medusa in a mirror.

  • collie

    Dr. Luther @ 71, “Here We Stand” by Hermann Sasse was the first book by a Lutheran theologian that I ever read. This was about 12 years ago and it was very helpful in explaining the distinctives of Lutheran vs Reformed theology. I was amazed when I looked at the publication date: 1938. I remember being impressed at such solid Christian confession being published at such a tumultuous and dangerous time in Germany.

  • collie

    Dr. Luther @ 71, “Here We Stand” by Hermann Sasse was the first book by a Lutheran theologian that I ever read. This was about 12 years ago and it was very helpful in explaining the distinctives of Lutheran vs Reformed theology. I was amazed when I looked at the publication date: 1938. I remember being impressed at such solid Christian confession being published at such a tumultuous and dangerous time in Germany.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Herman Sasse had some major cajones, so to speak.

    Grace, I believe you have done extensive research in WW2, if you count only reading books that agree with your presupposition as research. Yet, until you begin to branch out you will continue to be woefully obvious in your ignorance and a fool. I have read The Fabricated Luther it is well researched and published by a publisher that has been proven to be intellectually honest. I think it is sad that you will go to hackjobs like tentmaker.org but won’t read a book from a respected theological publisher. They could have tried to cover up Luther’s lamentable polemics but they didn’t as evidenced by earlier posts.

    Tom, and others, I am thinking as much fun as it is to laugh at Grace’s absurd and poorly researched pot shots, it may be best to ignore him/her and engage in more fruitful discussions. At least until such time as they are willing to engage in honest debate and show a willingness to step outside of the propaganda mill.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    Herman Sasse had some major cajones, so to speak.

    Grace, I believe you have done extensive research in WW2, if you count only reading books that agree with your presupposition as research. Yet, until you begin to branch out you will continue to be woefully obvious in your ignorance and a fool. I have read The Fabricated Luther it is well researched and published by a publisher that has been proven to be intellectually honest. I think it is sad that you will go to hackjobs like tentmaker.org but won’t read a book from a respected theological publisher. They could have tried to cover up Luther’s lamentable polemics but they didn’t as evidenced by earlier posts.

    Tom, and others, I am thinking as much fun as it is to laugh at Grace’s absurd and poorly researched pot shots, it may be best to ignore him/her and engage in more fruitful discussions. At least until such time as they are willing to engage in honest debate and show a willingness to step outside of the propaganda mill.

  • Stephen

    Grace –

    I’m wondering where you got the idea that Lutheranism is an evil cult that doesn’t subscribe to the Holy Scriptures and follows a wicked man named Luther. That would seem to be the underlying premise you hold. Is that what they preach in Calvary Chapel? I’d just bet they preach out of Acts a lot too. Good to be on the right track isn’t it? No matter.

    I have a suggestion Forget about all of us who defend Luther. If you really want to take a holy, sanctifying bath in the Holocaust and figure it all out so you can be the one condemning others for it, then I say “by all means.” Study hard. There’s lots of amazing work done, and from the looks of it and the sources you cite you haven’t even gotten your little toe in the water. Get off the Internet and Wikipedia and go to a good university library. Examine that evil top to bottom. Really do that due diligence you claim (because you haven’t) and study it. There’s a 7 hour film by Claude Lansmann called “Shoa” that I recommend you sit through. Read Raul Hilberg. And while you are at it, make some good, close friends that are Jews who lost relatives. Listen to what they say. Get your Goyim self invited to a Passover meal and celebrate to coming deliverance of Israel with them.

    It’s not for me to say, but I really think if you did any of these things you would actually understand what you are talking about. It is obvious you don’t. You have some other agenda no one can understand and which you will not be forthcoming about. It doesn’t matter. Spend the next year on actually doing some of that and see how you feel about God and his purposes, let alone Luther. While you are at it, actually wash the feet of poor people, spend time working with refugees from the poverty being generated in our world economy since you are so all fired sure that America and its money are the answer you proclaim. Use some of that money you’ve got and take a plane to Asia somewhere remote and lay your hands on lepers and pray for them. There are still plenty of them in the world, or maybe you could just go find some people with AIDS in a nearby hospital. If you want to ferret out the evil in the world, go touch it, kiss it, embrace it in the lives of the despised people of this world just like the Jews were in Germany in the 1930s. Reach out and wrap your mind, heart an soul with all the righteousness you possess and which Luther and “cradle Lutherans” don’t in your estimation. Dig deep with your actions.

    If you did even a few of those things with any seriousness I suspect you’d find yourself and everyone else in this conundrum we call human existence to be sorely in need of punishment. See if there is anything at all you can do to make things right, anything anyone could do to heal all that you’ve read and experienced. Then turn to Jesus and see what he has to say.

    You are blessed Grace. When you get to the end of that, you will be able to look in the mirror and recite your own name when that moment comes when all those answers fail and your personal righteousness to do all these things is exposed as an utter failure. For someone with that name, you seem to have so little understanding of how deep and broad and complete that grace is. Lutheranism will never make sense to you until you master some sense of the meaning found in your own name. Exhaust yourself doing the right things and maybe you will get close to at least some head knowledge of it. But from the wrath you continue to pour out on Lutherans it would seem you still have no idea what it is, either in your head or your heart. Maybe that is because it has never actually been preached to you. Christian faith is all about being
    “good enough” and “deciding” you will be a Christian for yourself. If that’s all you’ve actually got, then all you’ve done is made an idol of your own religious experience.

    But none of that matters. Do those righteous things that will correct all the sin in the world that you see. And when they fail to achieve that purpose or even make a significant dent in the suffering of human beings, fall on the mercy of God who forgives you all your sins and accepts you anyway, beyond what you can or cannot accomplish. Then you will have a sense of what Lutheranism is all about and how a bunch of “cradle Lutherans” can still cling to that Gospel taught to them by the sinner Martin Luther.

    So look and search and experience and do good works until you are spent. None of it will matter in the least. Grace will find you grace. It’s a promise given for you in Jesus Christ.

  • Stephen

    Grace –

    I’m wondering where you got the idea that Lutheranism is an evil cult that doesn’t subscribe to the Holy Scriptures and follows a wicked man named Luther. That would seem to be the underlying premise you hold. Is that what they preach in Calvary Chapel? I’d just bet they preach out of Acts a lot too. Good to be on the right track isn’t it? No matter.

    I have a suggestion Forget about all of us who defend Luther. If you really want to take a holy, sanctifying bath in the Holocaust and figure it all out so you can be the one condemning others for it, then I say “by all means.” Study hard. There’s lots of amazing work done, and from the looks of it and the sources you cite you haven’t even gotten your little toe in the water. Get off the Internet and Wikipedia and go to a good university library. Examine that evil top to bottom. Really do that due diligence you claim (because you haven’t) and study it. There’s a 7 hour film by Claude Lansmann called “Shoa” that I recommend you sit through. Read Raul Hilberg. And while you are at it, make some good, close friends that are Jews who lost relatives. Listen to what they say. Get your Goyim self invited to a Passover meal and celebrate to coming deliverance of Israel with them.

    It’s not for me to say, but I really think if you did any of these things you would actually understand what you are talking about. It is obvious you don’t. You have some other agenda no one can understand and which you will not be forthcoming about. It doesn’t matter. Spend the next year on actually doing some of that and see how you feel about God and his purposes, let alone Luther. While you are at it, actually wash the feet of poor people, spend time working with refugees from the poverty being generated in our world economy since you are so all fired sure that America and its money are the answer you proclaim. Use some of that money you’ve got and take a plane to Asia somewhere remote and lay your hands on lepers and pray for them. There are still plenty of them in the world, or maybe you could just go find some people with AIDS in a nearby hospital. If you want to ferret out the evil in the world, go touch it, kiss it, embrace it in the lives of the despised people of this world just like the Jews were in Germany in the 1930s. Reach out and wrap your mind, heart an soul with all the righteousness you possess and which Luther and “cradle Lutherans” don’t in your estimation. Dig deep with your actions.

    If you did even a few of those things with any seriousness I suspect you’d find yourself and everyone else in this conundrum we call human existence to be sorely in need of punishment. See if there is anything at all you can do to make things right, anything anyone could do to heal all that you’ve read and experienced. Then turn to Jesus and see what he has to say.

    You are blessed Grace. When you get to the end of that, you will be able to look in the mirror and recite your own name when that moment comes when all those answers fail and your personal righteousness to do all these things is exposed as an utter failure. For someone with that name, you seem to have so little understanding of how deep and broad and complete that grace is. Lutheranism will never make sense to you until you master some sense of the meaning found in your own name. Exhaust yourself doing the right things and maybe you will get close to at least some head knowledge of it. But from the wrath you continue to pour out on Lutherans it would seem you still have no idea what it is, either in your head or your heart. Maybe that is because it has never actually been preached to you. Christian faith is all about being
    “good enough” and “deciding” you will be a Christian for yourself. If that’s all you’ve actually got, then all you’ve done is made an idol of your own religious experience.

    But none of that matters. Do those righteous things that will correct all the sin in the world that you see. And when they fail to achieve that purpose or even make a significant dent in the suffering of human beings, fall on the mercy of God who forgives you all your sins and accepts you anyway, beyond what you can or cannot accomplish. Then you will have a sense of what Lutheranism is all about and how a bunch of “cradle Lutherans” can still cling to that Gospel taught to them by the sinner Martin Luther.

    So look and search and experience and do good works until you are spent. None of it will matter in the least. Grace will find you grace. It’s a promise given for you in Jesus Christ.

  • Tom Hering

    Ignoring Grace doesn’t work, Doc. Grace will continue to do her thing, someone will respond to her – believing they can change her by employing love and/or reason – and whole chunks of threads will be taken up with efforts to correct her. So, given the fact that she’s going to continue to do her thing, as well as the fact that whole chunks of threads will continue to be focused on her, why not have some fun with it all? When the absurd becomes inevitable, all you can do is shake your head, point a finger, and laugh.

  • Tom Hering

    Ignoring Grace doesn’t work, Doc. Grace will continue to do her thing, someone will respond to her – believing they can change her by employing love and/or reason – and whole chunks of threads will be taken up with efforts to correct her. So, given the fact that she’s going to continue to do her thing, as well as the fact that whole chunks of threads will continue to be focused on her, why not have some fun with it all? When the absurd becomes inevitable, all you can do is shake your head, point a finger, and laugh.

  • Stephen

    And to everyone else among the despised Lutherans, I think ignoring Grace is one strategy. But it came to me last night what Jesus said about 70 x 7. If Lutheranism is what it claims to be, then we have to do that earthly righteousness, love our neighbor in spite of what they deserve, and continue to preach Jesus Christ. I am a complete failure in this. I want to judge and certainly have. But Grace gets the Gospel too. It is commanded that we give it to her. In, with and under is God’s grace. The law is killing, the Spirit makes alive. God wants her to live. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That is the good news.

  • Stephen

    And to everyone else among the despised Lutherans, I think ignoring Grace is one strategy. But it came to me last night what Jesus said about 70 x 7. If Lutheranism is what it claims to be, then we have to do that earthly righteousness, love our neighbor in spite of what they deserve, and continue to preach Jesus Christ. I am a complete failure in this. I want to judge and certainly have. But Grace gets the Gospel too. It is commanded that we give it to her. In, with and under is God’s grace. The law is killing, the Spirit makes alive. God wants her to live. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. That is the good news.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    #91 Stephen, it is one thing to be willing to forgive and it is another to throw pearls before swine. To the unrepentant, forgiveness must be withheld. Grace, in repeatedly post as he/she does is showing a form of unrepentance in showing an unwillingness to be corrected in their false information. There can be no forgiveness in unrepentance, it is wasted words. Should Grace begin to show an earnest desire to learn from correction, show repentance then I shall forgive. But until then, I say he/she is free to lurk even post but should not expect a response (if our esteemed host allows them to stay, which I expect will happen).

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    #91 Stephen, it is one thing to be willing to forgive and it is another to throw pearls before swine. To the unrepentant, forgiveness must be withheld. Grace, in repeatedly post as he/she does is showing a form of unrepentance in showing an unwillingness to be corrected in their false information. There can be no forgiveness in unrepentance, it is wasted words. Should Grace begin to show an earnest desire to learn from correction, show repentance then I shall forgive. But until then, I say he/she is free to lurk even post but should not expect a response (if our esteemed host allows them to stay, which I expect will happen).

  • Stephen

    Dr. Luther –

    You are correct, and perhaps my law/gospel distinction was not clear. I guess I can’t get over the fact that she keeps coming back. What’s going on there? Shall we “excommunicate” her as it were, treating her “as if” she were an unrepentant heretic (but as our Confessions teach, not actually being the judge of such things)? Or do we treat her as one of the baptized and preach to her the Gospel? In order to do the latter, we must be merciful it seems to me, witholding the judgment we all deserve. That “doing” of mercy is all our earthly duty to our neighbor. Forgiving her for being mean and nasty without her admitting to it is one thing. That is an earthly thing. Showing mercy we can still do, and even that is an earthly thing God desires that we do. Announcing to her the Gospel is what God also commands we do for sinners. I see no reason why we cannot or should not do that, over and over. God wants her to have it. And she claims to love Jesus, which no one can do without the Holy Spirit.

    So I say she does deserve the benefit of the doubt and get the Gospel in spite of her opinions on Luther and Lutheranism. It isn’t about our bruised egos or whether or not we have suffered undo insults, is it? If she truly is off her rocker, then she needs mercy even that much more. If she is being punished by the law she so fervently believes in that she would hammer on others with it, then she needs the Gospel like nothing else. We are not called to like doing it but to do it – preach.

  • Stephen

    Dr. Luther –

    You are correct, and perhaps my law/gospel distinction was not clear. I guess I can’t get over the fact that she keeps coming back. What’s going on there? Shall we “excommunicate” her as it were, treating her “as if” she were an unrepentant heretic (but as our Confessions teach, not actually being the judge of such things)? Or do we treat her as one of the baptized and preach to her the Gospel? In order to do the latter, we must be merciful it seems to me, witholding the judgment we all deserve. That “doing” of mercy is all our earthly duty to our neighbor. Forgiving her for being mean and nasty without her admitting to it is one thing. That is an earthly thing. Showing mercy we can still do, and even that is an earthly thing God desires that we do. Announcing to her the Gospel is what God also commands we do for sinners. I see no reason why we cannot or should not do that, over and over. God wants her to have it. And she claims to love Jesus, which no one can do without the Holy Spirit.

    So I say she does deserve the benefit of the doubt and get the Gospel in spite of her opinions on Luther and Lutheranism. It isn’t about our bruised egos or whether or not we have suffered undo insults, is it? If she truly is off her rocker, then she needs mercy even that much more. If she is being punished by the law she so fervently believes in that she would hammer on others with it, then she needs the Gospel like nothing else. We are not called to like doing it but to do it – preach.

  • Stephen

    Grace -

    By the way, I don’t think you are off your rocker. I think you are angry and I don’t understand why.

  • Stephen

    Grace -

    By the way, I don’t think you are off your rocker. I think you are angry and I don’t understand why.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther

    we are all swine and yet God in his undeserved grace and mercy gives us the Pearl. It is ours to keep!

    I think you are being harsh here. It is not up to us to change hearts. but we can remember that God turned our own hearts of stone in to children of abraham and we still utterly are lacking of the repentance that God demands of us in his law. We cling to our false gods and idols and we are too proud and arrogant at times to hear loving correction from others or even to receive love when it is freely given.

    Dr Luther: Love Grace as Christ loves you and gave Himself for you. Can you ever ever imagine your dear Lord turning you away because your heart continues to be hard and unrepentant? No. That simply could never happen. Jesus would never refuse you. He will just keep coming back after you again and again and again . You are his. so is Grace. we are to treat others according to their baptism. and we are to trust in our baptism as well.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther

    we are all swine and yet God in his undeserved grace and mercy gives us the Pearl. It is ours to keep!

    I think you are being harsh here. It is not up to us to change hearts. but we can remember that God turned our own hearts of stone in to children of abraham and we still utterly are lacking of the repentance that God demands of us in his law. We cling to our false gods and idols and we are too proud and arrogant at times to hear loving correction from others or even to receive love when it is freely given.

    Dr Luther: Love Grace as Christ loves you and gave Himself for you. Can you ever ever imagine your dear Lord turning you away because your heart continues to be hard and unrepentant? No. That simply could never happen. Jesus would never refuse you. He will just keep coming back after you again and again and again . You are his. so is Grace. we are to treat others according to their baptism. and we are to trust in our baptism as well.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    fws,
    You are right it is not up to us to change a persons heart. And that we are all swine in that we are all sinners. However, we are poor stewards of the gift of the office of the keys if we grant forgiveness to those who refuse to repent.

    Frank the difference between us (you and I and others on this board) and Grace is that we have acknowledged the truth and have faith in God’s word that we are sinners. Where as Grace believes that she is not a sinner despite an open breaking of the 8th commandment. If Grace were the least bit repentant I would not reject her, but she isn’t she is adamant in remaining in her sin in breaking the 8th commandment and should not be offered forgiveness. “The Office of the Keys is that special authority which Christ has given to His church on earth to forgive the sins of repentant sinners, but to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant as long as they do not repent.” S.C. This is not a decision I come to lightly, ever; but, Grace has repeatedly persisted even when 2 or more brothers have pointed out her error. We should suffer her sin no more and should no longer respond to her posts. That said I don’t advocate kicking her off in the chance that in reading the rightly divided Law and Gospel she maybe led to repentance. Should she repent, I will be the first to line up and offer forgiveness.

    BTW the Lord did turn people away in the hardness of their hearts, “you brood of vipers, who warned you to flee the coming wrath” ring a bell?

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    fws,
    You are right it is not up to us to change a persons heart. And that we are all swine in that we are all sinners. However, we are poor stewards of the gift of the office of the keys if we grant forgiveness to those who refuse to repent.

    Frank the difference between us (you and I and others on this board) and Grace is that we have acknowledged the truth and have faith in God’s word that we are sinners. Where as Grace believes that she is not a sinner despite an open breaking of the 8th commandment. If Grace were the least bit repentant I would not reject her, but she isn’t she is adamant in remaining in her sin in breaking the 8th commandment and should not be offered forgiveness. “The Office of the Keys is that special authority which Christ has given to His church on earth to forgive the sins of repentant sinners, but to withhold forgiveness from the unrepentant as long as they do not repent.” S.C. This is not a decision I come to lightly, ever; but, Grace has repeatedly persisted even when 2 or more brothers have pointed out her error. We should suffer her sin no more and should no longer respond to her posts. That said I don’t advocate kicking her off in the chance that in reading the rightly divided Law and Gospel she maybe led to repentance. Should she repent, I will be the first to line up and offer forgiveness.

    BTW the Lord did turn people away in the hardness of their hearts, “you brood of vipers, who warned you to flee the coming wrath” ring a bell?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr Luther,

    thank you for your kind response. truly kind and loving.

    Nicodemus was one of those brood of vipers. He came to Jesus in the night. His progression in “coming out of the closet” for Christ is interesting stuff.

    God appoints you dear pastor as an earthly ruler over a part of the earthly visible kingdom of the law known as the visible church. You apply the law to maintain order that is necessary for Old Adam so that sin is not a distraction from the Holy Gospel.

    That is not really all that necessary on a blog here. And in this case, our station in life is not as pastor but as blog participant.

    Gosh. There are alot of sins I must have that I am not aware of and would resent having 3 or 3 gang up to point out to me. I often ignore what I say every sunday that I am “sinful and unclean”. wow. How could any criticism make me defensive after confessions my sin in those terms?! But I still have lots of sins that I dont see as sin even if a few people decide to gang up to tell me so.

    This does not mean does it, that I am unrepentant in the sense that I am not a believer in Christ does it? Grace does not agree that she has broken the 8th commandment. ok. and she seems defensive about being called a sinner over specific sinning. ok.

    Grace was baptized. We address her accordingly out of the law of love not out of faith.

    There is no law against giving Grace too much love dr Luther. love is the fulfillment of the law. If you dont have time to engage grace, then simply dont address her. what is lost by urging Christ on her.

    Grace keeps coming back here. We should be very very careful to welcome her warmly and with love. People who are suffering under the heavy yoke of the law often respond to love like a wounded animal.

    Ok. Let´s not stop offering Grace the love she obviously needs and to salve the suffering she obviously is experiencing.

    Please Dr Luther.

    I know what it feels like to be shunned or told that I am not a christian because I have not repented enough of some particular sin in some visibly particular way to suit the judgement of some particular person.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr Luther,

    thank you for your kind response. truly kind and loving.

    Nicodemus was one of those brood of vipers. He came to Jesus in the night. His progression in “coming out of the closet” for Christ is interesting stuff.

    God appoints you dear pastor as an earthly ruler over a part of the earthly visible kingdom of the law known as the visible church. You apply the law to maintain order that is necessary for Old Adam so that sin is not a distraction from the Holy Gospel.

    That is not really all that necessary on a blog here. And in this case, our station in life is not as pastor but as blog participant.

    Gosh. There are alot of sins I must have that I am not aware of and would resent having 3 or 3 gang up to point out to me. I often ignore what I say every sunday that I am “sinful and unclean”. wow. How could any criticism make me defensive after confessions my sin in those terms?! But I still have lots of sins that I dont see as sin even if a few people decide to gang up to tell me so.

    This does not mean does it, that I am unrepentant in the sense that I am not a believer in Christ does it? Grace does not agree that she has broken the 8th commandment. ok. and she seems defensive about being called a sinner over specific sinning. ok.

    Grace was baptized. We address her accordingly out of the law of love not out of faith.

    There is no law against giving Grace too much love dr Luther. love is the fulfillment of the law. If you dont have time to engage grace, then simply dont address her. what is lost by urging Christ on her.

    Grace keeps coming back here. We should be very very careful to welcome her warmly and with love. People who are suffering under the heavy yoke of the law often respond to love like a wounded animal.

    Ok. Let´s not stop offering Grace the love she obviously needs and to salve the suffering she obviously is experiencing.

    Please Dr Luther.

    I know what it feels like to be shunned or told that I am not a christian because I have not repented enough of some particular sin in some visibly particular way to suit the judgement of some particular person.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther @ 96

    “However, we are poor stewards of the gift of the office of the keys if we grant forgiveness to those who refuse to repent.”

    The fact is that my Old Adam will ever refuse to repent and turn to Jesus.

    Yet it would be poor stewardship for a pastor not to forgive the new man who comes to confessions to be nourished in repentence because the Old Adam simply has to die and can only not repent.

    If you withhold forgiveness from Grace for a lack of the repentence that God demands of us, then you must also withhold it from yourself and from me and from anyone who comes to you. You must stop preaching from the pulpit that God in christ IS reconciled to the world. Now the fact that the world refuses to be reconciled is not for us to fix. Only the HS can fix this.

    the ministry of the keys pertains to this earthly existence. It is part of the romans 8 fleshly righteousness God demands but it will perish with the earth.

    What you do as pastor in exercising the ministry of the keys is the identical ministry you are ordered to do (law!) in your sermon as it is in private confession and in the blessed sacrament.

    in, with and under this law doing you do as a pastor when you plant the seed of God´s Word, the holy spirit is working, in with and under you and that seed to germinate and preserve the heavenly kingdom.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther @ 96

    “However, we are poor stewards of the gift of the office of the keys if we grant forgiveness to those who refuse to repent.”

    The fact is that my Old Adam will ever refuse to repent and turn to Jesus.

    Yet it would be poor stewardship for a pastor not to forgive the new man who comes to confessions to be nourished in repentence because the Old Adam simply has to die and can only not repent.

    If you withhold forgiveness from Grace for a lack of the repentence that God demands of us, then you must also withhold it from yourself and from me and from anyone who comes to you. You must stop preaching from the pulpit that God in christ IS reconciled to the world. Now the fact that the world refuses to be reconciled is not for us to fix. Only the HS can fix this.

    the ministry of the keys pertains to this earthly existence. It is part of the romans 8 fleshly righteousness God demands but it will perish with the earth.

    What you do as pastor in exercising the ministry of the keys is the identical ministry you are ordered to do (law!) in your sermon as it is in private confession and in the blessed sacrament.

    in, with and under this law doing you do as a pastor when you plant the seed of God´s Word, the holy spirit is working, in with and under you and that seed to germinate and preserve the heavenly kingdom.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther @ 96

    “Frank the difference between us (you and I and others on this board) and Grace is that we have acknowledged the truth and have faith in God’s word that we are sinners. ”

    But I DONT do this. the proof for this is that I continue to sin. if I really trusted God and the Truth as i am commanded to do, I would be able to stop sinning. It is precisely the lack of faith in my old adam heart that is the problem. Death is the only solution.

    Only the Gospel is the power of God that can bring us out of this death to life. Law, even when applied as a ministry or exercise of the keys cannot do this.

    I don´t tell my homosexual buddies to stop being homosexual. They could maybe somehow do that and go to hell trusting in that accomplishment.

    I tell my homosexual friends exactly what I tell my heterosexual friends, which is exactly what Jesus told the adulterous woman:

    “stop sinning” “stop ALL your sinning!”.

    Grace can stop breaking the 8th commandment . so what if you succeed at getting her to do that? It will have no eternal consequences. Now if you can give her the Holy Gospel, she will be able to stop sinning completely , which, in love, we assume she already does according to the new man given her in her baptism.

    And as for that sin she will continue to do as Old Adam…. well . she does need to stop hurting herself and others, but God will use even that suffering to bring her close to Christ.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    dr luther @ 96

    “Frank the difference between us (you and I and others on this board) and Grace is that we have acknowledged the truth and have faith in God’s word that we are sinners. ”

    But I DONT do this. the proof for this is that I continue to sin. if I really trusted God and the Truth as i am commanded to do, I would be able to stop sinning. It is precisely the lack of faith in my old adam heart that is the problem. Death is the only solution.

    Only the Gospel is the power of God that can bring us out of this death to life. Law, even when applied as a ministry or exercise of the keys cannot do this.

    I don´t tell my homosexual buddies to stop being homosexual. They could maybe somehow do that and go to hell trusting in that accomplishment.

    I tell my homosexual friends exactly what I tell my heterosexual friends, which is exactly what Jesus told the adulterous woman:

    “stop sinning” “stop ALL your sinning!”.

    Grace can stop breaking the 8th commandment . so what if you succeed at getting her to do that? It will have no eternal consequences. Now if you can give her the Holy Gospel, she will be able to stop sinning completely , which, in love, we assume she already does according to the new man given her in her baptism.

    And as for that sin she will continue to do as Old Adam…. well . she does need to stop hurting herself and others, but God will use even that suffering to bring her close to Christ.

  • Grace

    It’s amusing to read your ideas, using Wikipedia as a constant, reliable source of ones research – it hasn’t been around very long –

    It wouldn’t matter how many books I have read regarding WW2, the years leading up to, and after the holocaust, you people would continue to blither and complain because I don’t accept the material/books you choose. I have read countless books regarding this subject. The internet since its inception has made research a lot easier, I believe everyone would agree. That does not mean however, that one chooses to search out blogs and Wikipedia for information, that is an ignorant mistake, lacking knowledge and education – I will add, it also gives transparency where most of you search about, within the annuls of the internet.

    I posted the link to the piece, because it is very well researched by a man who has many academic achievements, and has written other books of interest – that however is not the sole criteria of which I base it to be totally factual, but taking into account all the many other books and works I have read in the past. As for the book Dr. Veith suggested, I simply don’t agree, nor do I want to invest my time reading it to it’s conclusion.

    As for Martin Luther – I mentioned often, I believe he started well, but the man for whatever reason couldn’t contain his hatred, and through the undeniable, intense venom, wrote not only the “Jews and their Lies” but other vicious works. For this reason, I have no reason or desire to put much credulence in his works, even though some of his earlier work is of value. Yes you and I are human, we think and do things which are sinful, but to continue without sorrow or remorse says much of what is in ones heart. Who knows what went wrong, maybe it was a severe drinking problem. The LORD warns against drunkeness, it most certainly affects the mind and alters ones thoughts, leading to acts that are opposite of Christ’s teaching.

    The Word of God is given to all of us to study. Through His Word (Scriptures, inspired and inerrant) our hearts can be reached in a direct way from the HOLY Spirit, that cannot be said of works by man, no matter how large the volume. If everyone spent more time in His Word they would gain knowledge which is everlasting, it reaches down to the heart and soul of man, that’s because they are inspired directly from the LORD …… very different than the work of man. That isn’t to say that Christian books and writings are of no value, they are.

    The Gospel is the Word of God, it comes only from that wonderful book that is inerrant from the LORD.

  • Grace

    It’s amusing to read your ideas, using Wikipedia as a constant, reliable source of ones research – it hasn’t been around very long –

    It wouldn’t matter how many books I have read regarding WW2, the years leading up to, and after the holocaust, you people would continue to blither and complain because I don’t accept the material/books you choose. I have read countless books regarding this subject. The internet since its inception has made research a lot easier, I believe everyone would agree. That does not mean however, that one chooses to search out blogs and Wikipedia for information, that is an ignorant mistake, lacking knowledge and education – I will add, it also gives transparency where most of you search about, within the annuls of the internet.

    I posted the link to the piece, because it is very well researched by a man who has many academic achievements, and has written other books of interest – that however is not the sole criteria of which I base it to be totally factual, but taking into account all the many other books and works I have read in the past. As for the book Dr. Veith suggested, I simply don’t agree, nor do I want to invest my time reading it to it’s conclusion.

    As for Martin Luther – I mentioned often, I believe he started well, but the man for whatever reason couldn’t contain his hatred, and through the undeniable, intense venom, wrote not only the “Jews and their Lies” but other vicious works. For this reason, I have no reason or desire to put much credulence in his works, even though some of his earlier work is of value. Yes you and I are human, we think and do things which are sinful, but to continue without sorrow or remorse says much of what is in ones heart. Who knows what went wrong, maybe it was a severe drinking problem. The LORD warns against drunkeness, it most certainly affects the mind and alters ones thoughts, leading to acts that are opposite of Christ’s teaching.

    The Word of God is given to all of us to study. Through His Word (Scriptures, inspired and inerrant) our hearts can be reached in a direct way from the HOLY Spirit, that cannot be said of works by man, no matter how large the volume. If everyone spent more time in His Word they would gain knowledge which is everlasting, it reaches down to the heart and soul of man, that’s because they are inspired directly from the LORD …… very different than the work of man. That isn’t to say that Christian books and writings are of no value, they are.

    The Gospel is the Word of God, it comes only from that wonderful book that is inerrant from the LORD.

  • Joanne

    So Frank, you are saying that the blog is not church and therefore does not have the keys. A blog is not a beichtstuhl. We are not authorized to bind or loose. (watch out for a Grace zap)

  • Joanne

    So Frank, you are saying that the blog is not church and therefore does not have the keys. A blog is not a beichtstuhl. We are not authorized to bind or loose. (watch out for a Grace zap)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 100

    “It’s amusing to read your ideas,…”

    Grace. That kind of lead in to your comment does not signal alot of respect for the person you are addressing does it?

    I assume you want to have that someone read what you wrote and take you seriously. why would someone you disrespect pay you any mind?

    Do you talk to people at your church and in your family in person in this way? what is their reaction to you? It must not be pleasant. I am sorry for that. I really am.

    why do you seem to be so angry and hurt? where is that coming from dear Grace?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 100

    “It’s amusing to read your ideas,…”

    Grace. That kind of lead in to your comment does not signal alot of respect for the person you are addressing does it?

    I assume you want to have that someone read what you wrote and take you seriously. why would someone you disrespect pay you any mind?

    Do you talk to people at your church and in your family in person in this way? what is their reaction to you? It must not be pleasant. I am sorry for that. I really am.

    why do you seem to be so angry and hurt? where is that coming from dear Grace?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    joanne @ 101

    Yeah I am saying that.

    The word “church” without the definite article as in “the church” means what. it seems like some sort of free floating platonic quality in that form. so what could being “church” in that case mean?

    I think it is not a matter of being authorized exactly Joanne. It is a matter of what is given to us as our task in the various earthly vocations we find ourselves placed in.

    As a priest of the priesthood, we are commanded actually to administer the keys . This is done by sharing law and gospel with others. God commands pastors to administer the keys in a public and official way as a part of an “office”, exactly like a policeman or judge exercises certain delegated powers.

    I suggest that excommunication is about governing the earthly organization we see that exists to administer word and sacraments. we usher loud people out of the divine service for a reason. we usher people who are disrupting the christian community with their sinning for the exact same reason.

    This is not about excluding them from the heavenly kingdom. This is all earthly kingdom stuff that is about love not about faith.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    joanne @ 101

    Yeah I am saying that.

    The word “church” without the definite article as in “the church” means what. it seems like some sort of free floating platonic quality in that form. so what could being “church” in that case mean?

    I think it is not a matter of being authorized exactly Joanne. It is a matter of what is given to us as our task in the various earthly vocations we find ourselves placed in.

    As a priest of the priesthood, we are commanded actually to administer the keys . This is done by sharing law and gospel with others. God commands pastors to administer the keys in a public and official way as a part of an “office”, exactly like a policeman or judge exercises certain delegated powers.

    I suggest that excommunication is about governing the earthly organization we see that exists to administer word and sacraments. we usher loud people out of the divine service for a reason. we usher people who are disrupting the christian community with their sinning for the exact same reason.

    This is not about excluding them from the heavenly kingdom. This is all earthly kingdom stuff that is about love not about faith.

  • Grace

    fws –

    I have no interested in arguing with you regarding my first sentence. If you look back at all the rattle trap snarky comments directed to me, that should answer your question.

    So now the — “why do you seem to be so angry and hurt? where is that coming from dear Grace?” –

    That is the oldest ploy on blogs, when something doesn’t sit right, the words you posted are often used. Frank, get a grip, I’m not going to defend such nonsense, you should know better.

  • Grace

    fws –

    I have no interested in arguing with you regarding my first sentence. If you look back at all the rattle trap snarky comments directed to me, that should answer your question.

    So now the — “why do you seem to be so angry and hurt? where is that coming from dear Grace?” –

    That is the oldest ploy on blogs, when something doesn’t sit right, the words you posted are often used. Frank, get a grip, I’m not going to defend such nonsense, you should know better.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    joanne @ 101

    beichtstuhl. impressive gal! no a blog is not a confessional booth or bench. it is a blog.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    joanne @ 101

    beichtstuhl. impressive gal! no a blog is not a confessional booth or bench. it is a blog.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 104

    Of course you are free to question the sincerity of my post to you. That does not offend me The answer to your questioning me as to my sincerity is that it was not a ploy dear sister.

    So now what is your response knowing that there is no ploy and that I really do consider you a dear christian sister and care about your feelings and how you are doing? :)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 104

    Of course you are free to question the sincerity of my post to you. That does not offend me The answer to your questioning me as to my sincerity is that it was not a ploy dear sister.

    So now what is your response knowing that there is no ploy and that I really do consider you a dear christian sister and care about your feelings and how you are doing? :)

  • Tom Hering

    Doc Luther 21, I think you were on to something in the last paragraph of your comment @ 88. The comment by “Grace” @ 100 is very different in tone, structure, and level of argumentative skill when compared to many other “Grace” comments. I think we’re dealing with a husband and wife team here, and not just one person.

  • Tom Hering

    Doc Luther 21, I think you were on to something in the last paragraph of your comment @ 88. The comment by “Grace” @ 100 is very different in tone, structure, and level of argumentative skill when compared to many other “Grace” comments. I think we’re dealing with a husband and wife team here, and not just one person.

  • Grace

    Tom

    “The comment by “Grace” @ 100 is very different in tone, structure, and level of argumentative skill when compared to many other “Grace” comments. I think we’re dealing with a husband and wife team here, and not just one person.”

    Another bunny trail by Tom – anything to distract!

    That is not true, but of course it suits your purpose to throw out yet another accusation. My husband has never posted on this blog.

  • Grace

    Tom

    “The comment by “Grace” @ 100 is very different in tone, structure, and level of argumentative skill when compared to many other “Grace” comments. I think we’re dealing with a husband and wife team here, and not just one person.”

    Another bunny trail by Tom – anything to distract!

    That is not true, but of course it suits your purpose to throw out yet another accusation. My husband has never posted on this blog.

  • Tom Hering

    Schizophrenia then? ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    Schizophrenia then? ;-)

  • Grace

    “Schizophrenia then?”

    Lutherans wonder why there are volumes of work concerning Luther and his false ugly accusations against the Jews?

    When all else fails, falsely accuse, make a joke of it, you had/have a good teacher –

    You prove my point very well!

  • Grace

    “Schizophrenia then?”

    Lutherans wonder why there are volumes of work concerning Luther and his false ugly accusations against the Jews?

    When all else fails, falsely accuse, make a joke of it, you had/have a good teacher –

    You prove my point very well!

  • kerner

    Grace @100:

    I don’t think a drinking problem was at the bottom of it. I have read that in his last years (when OTJ&TL was written) Luther suffered from numerous physical health problems, such as hemorrhoids, severe constipation, fainting spells, heart problems, an open flowing ulcer on his leg, and uric acid stones; some of which would have been painful and humiliating and many of which would have been frightening, especially during the 16th century when medicine was so primitive.

    Others have believed that Luther suffered from clinical depression, which he was able to manage in his youth but which got the better of him in his old age and physical infirmities. Trying to diagnose something like that is pretty iffy after 475 years, but you do have to remember that Luther was under contant threat of death and persecution, and was under constant personal attacks from his theological adversaries; that is, a lot of lies were really being told about him and he was constantly having to refute them. Whatever his actual mental state may have been, I am not surprised (but I AM terribly disappointed) to find that Luther ended up seeing lies and threats where none existed and lashed out at people who didn’t deserve it.

    The foregoing is only my opinion, and not a very firm one, as it is hard to figure out a man’s heart after so much time has passed. I don’t mean for any of this to be construed as an excuse. Please consider it only as one plausible explanation as to why a man who got a great many things right went so radically wrong in later life.

    But this is why I wish you would pay more attention to the things Luther got right (IMO), i.e. the Lutheran Confessions. These are the writings that really matter to Lutherans, because we believe they correctly interpret Scripture. If you think the Lutheran Confessions are anti-Scriptural in some way, show me why. But please lay off the sinful bitterness that Luther engaged in. I already know what was wrong with that.

  • kerner

    Grace @100:

    I don’t think a drinking problem was at the bottom of it. I have read that in his last years (when OTJ&TL was written) Luther suffered from numerous physical health problems, such as hemorrhoids, severe constipation, fainting spells, heart problems, an open flowing ulcer on his leg, and uric acid stones; some of which would have been painful and humiliating and many of which would have been frightening, especially during the 16th century when medicine was so primitive.

    Others have believed that Luther suffered from clinical depression, which he was able to manage in his youth but which got the better of him in his old age and physical infirmities. Trying to diagnose something like that is pretty iffy after 475 years, but you do have to remember that Luther was under contant threat of death and persecution, and was under constant personal attacks from his theological adversaries; that is, a lot of lies were really being told about him and he was constantly having to refute them. Whatever his actual mental state may have been, I am not surprised (but I AM terribly disappointed) to find that Luther ended up seeing lies and threats where none existed and lashed out at people who didn’t deserve it.

    The foregoing is only my opinion, and not a very firm one, as it is hard to figure out a man’s heart after so much time has passed. I don’t mean for any of this to be construed as an excuse. Please consider it only as one plausible explanation as to why a man who got a great many things right went so radically wrong in later life.

    But this is why I wish you would pay more attention to the things Luther got right (IMO), i.e. the Lutheran Confessions. These are the writings that really matter to Lutherans, because we believe they correctly interpret Scripture. If you think the Lutheran Confessions are anti-Scriptural in some way, show me why. But please lay off the sinful bitterness that Luther engaged in. I already know what was wrong with that.

  • Tom Hering

    “When all else fails, falsely accuse, make a joke of it, you had/have a good teacher …” – “Grace” @ 110.

    Dear “Grace,” I could never think of you as my teacher in these things, expert as you are in them.

  • Tom Hering

    “When all else fails, falsely accuse, make a joke of it, you had/have a good teacher …” – “Grace” @ 110.

    Dear “Grace,” I could never think of you as my teacher in these things, expert as you are in them.

  • kerner

    Hey, come on guys. First you tell grace to behave, and when she does you accuse her of being someone else? Time to dust off that old best construction.

    Grace, I know that the only inerrant truth is in the Bible. But like I said, different “Bible believing” churches interpret the Bible in different ways, so there has to be a statement of what the particular thinks the Bible teaches. If you don’t, simply saying that “We believe the Bible” could mean a lot of different things. I know that Calvery Chapels generally ha ve at least a brief statement of what they believe available. The Lutheran Confessions are our statement of what we believe the Bible says.

  • kerner

    Hey, come on guys. First you tell grace to behave, and when she does you accuse her of being someone else? Time to dust off that old best construction.

    Grace, I know that the only inerrant truth is in the Bible. But like I said, different “Bible believing” churches interpret the Bible in different ways, so there has to be a statement of what the particular thinks the Bible teaches. If you don’t, simply saying that “We believe the Bible” could mean a lot of different things. I know that Calvery Chapels generally ha ve at least a brief statement of what they believe available. The Lutheran Confessions are our statement of what we believe the Bible says.

  • Tom Hering

    kerner, any thought that “Grace” might be someone other than the “Grace” we know is a best construction.

  • Tom Hering

    kerner, any thought that “Grace” might be someone other than the “Grace” we know is a best construction.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    fws – I am not with out compassion. To withhold forgiveness in the face of unrepentance is not a lack of compassion. I will always pray for repentance and glad offer the assurance of the forgiveness of sins when repentance occurs. Though on the surface it seems harsh but underneath it is an act of compassion to not allow the unrepentant to believe it is ok to continue in such as state. To paraphrase Paul, toss them to Satan so that they may feel the full weight of their sin so that they may repent. Nicodemus whom you mention is proof of this, if as you suggest he was one who came out to John, he was convicted and brought to the feet of the Christ by the Holy Spirit, as I would hope any who are called on their unrepentance would do.

    But I DONT do this. the proof for this is that I continue to sin. if I really trusted God and the Truth as i am commanded to do, I would be able to stop sinning. It is precisely the lack of faith in my old adam heart that is the problem. Death is the only solution.
    You confirm what I said earlier, you do have faith in the truth that God speaks, for you confirm with your own words you are a sinner, unworthy of God grace. No unrepentant sinner would ever acknowledge that reality. They would instead say I am a decent person, just like the pharisees did when John called out.

    You do draw a false dichotomy between “church” and the “world.” Law and Gospel are for all times and places not just the sermon on Sunday; just as confession and absolution are not just for the confessional booth but for all times and places. Does the fact we are typing negate the promise of God?
    I don’t want Grace to just stop. To just stop would be as you say pretty fruitless. I want for her to be convicted of her sin by the Holy Spirit and like Nicodemus be brought to the healing grace of Christ.

    Kerner, I understand Luther is a forensic pathologist dream, he describes his conditions so vividly they believe they can reliable diagnose his ailments just from his letters.

    Tom, I was using the he/she cause I didn’t know Grace’s gender and didn’t want to cause needless offense. Now I know for sure Grace is female, I will now write the appropriate pronoun.

    Ok, who is relying on wikipedia? Did I miss something, I haven’t seen any wiki links.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    fws – I am not with out compassion. To withhold forgiveness in the face of unrepentance is not a lack of compassion. I will always pray for repentance and glad offer the assurance of the forgiveness of sins when repentance occurs. Though on the surface it seems harsh but underneath it is an act of compassion to not allow the unrepentant to believe it is ok to continue in such as state. To paraphrase Paul, toss them to Satan so that they may feel the full weight of their sin so that they may repent. Nicodemus whom you mention is proof of this, if as you suggest he was one who came out to John, he was convicted and brought to the feet of the Christ by the Holy Spirit, as I would hope any who are called on their unrepentance would do.

    But I DONT do this. the proof for this is that I continue to sin. if I really trusted God and the Truth as i am commanded to do, I would be able to stop sinning. It is precisely the lack of faith in my old adam heart that is the problem. Death is the only solution.
    You confirm what I said earlier, you do have faith in the truth that God speaks, for you confirm with your own words you are a sinner, unworthy of God grace. No unrepentant sinner would ever acknowledge that reality. They would instead say I am a decent person, just like the pharisees did when John called out.

    You do draw a false dichotomy between “church” and the “world.” Law and Gospel are for all times and places not just the sermon on Sunday; just as confession and absolution are not just for the confessional booth but for all times and places. Does the fact we are typing negate the promise of God?
    I don’t want Grace to just stop. To just stop would be as you say pretty fruitless. I want for her to be convicted of her sin by the Holy Spirit and like Nicodemus be brought to the healing grace of Christ.

    Kerner, I understand Luther is a forensic pathologist dream, he describes his conditions so vividly they believe they can reliable diagnose his ailments just from his letters.

    Tom, I was using the he/she cause I didn’t know Grace’s gender and didn’t want to cause needless offense. Now I know for sure Grace is female, I will now write the appropriate pronoun.

    Ok, who is relying on wikipedia? Did I miss something, I haven’t seen any wiki links.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 111 and 113

    The man wasn’t too ill to write about how much he hated the Jews, and how dreadfully they should be dealt with.

    What matters to Christian Believers is truth, and that most certainly includes pastors/teachers/evangelists – those who stray so far away that they wish the Jews driven out, their Synogoges burned to the ground are not following the teachings of Christ – and if that leader teaches a false Gospel we are to turn away, that would include the book he wrote. All the excuses in the world do not erase the last three years of Luther’s life.

    I have known several pastor/leaders who have sinned in some very grevious ways. They were excused from their position, they were not allowed to stand in the pulpit of the church. In these cases two of them denied their sin, and after hours of proving they had, they finally admitted to what they did. Did it hurt the church? YES, it was a sad time.

    God forgives each of us our sins if we repent, but the Bible doesn’t say that a pastor can continue to sin and still pastor or lead a church. I hope Martin Luther repented of his evil ways, and the book he wrote, it has done much damage within the church, Germany and the Jewish people, it’s not to be taken lightly. The subject willl not go away, ….. because of the internet, information travels much faster at the click of keys to obtain many pieces of information, ….. I’m not referring to Wikipedia!

    I had the privilege of living and working within a community (West L.A. UCLA, before marriage) where many Jewish people lived. I love, with all my heart the Jewish people, they have been hurt, they are very special. I was able to interview some of the elder Jews who survived the camps, the pain they went through, tears in their eyes as they told their stories…. their arm with identification, forever marked, to prove where they had been, and their great loss. I was able to interview those who were elderly (Gentiles) born, living in Europe during the war. I asked lots of questions, one was “why did your countrymen hate the Jews” – I will never forget the answers, one woman who answered and said “the Jews had most of the businesses and education” it all centered around jealousy.

    The Bible says it best

    A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.
    Proverbs 14:30
    Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; but who is able to stand before envy?</b.
    Proverbs 27:4

    It is no different today Kerner, the envy and jealousy still exist.

    In all conscience, I could never follow a pastor teacher like Luther, it goes against the teachings of the Bible and Christs admonition to love everyone, even our enemies -

    Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34

    Here our LORD hangs, bleeding dying for a sinful world, in the worst kind of pain and He knows their hard hearts, and in His gentle humbleness gives them His farewell as He prays aloud to His Father.

    The Jews are blinded, they don’t see Jesus as the Messiah. Anyone who has studied the Word of God knows this. I don’t know why some of them believe and most others turn their back. I know this, Jews are blind when it comes to Isaiah 53, however, they will listen if you can explain prophecy from the Old Testament, coming to pass in the New, or what has transpired in the past years such as the 6 day war, Jews returning to Israel, using Scripture as proof.

  • Grace

    Kerner – 111 and 113

    The man wasn’t too ill to write about how much he hated the Jews, and how dreadfully they should be dealt with.

    What matters to Christian Believers is truth, and that most certainly includes pastors/teachers/evangelists – those who stray so far away that they wish the Jews driven out, their Synogoges burned to the ground are not following the teachings of Christ – and if that leader teaches a false Gospel we are to turn away, that would include the book he wrote. All the excuses in the world do not erase the last three years of Luther’s life.

    I have known several pastor/leaders who have sinned in some very grevious ways. They were excused from their position, they were not allowed to stand in the pulpit of the church. In these cases two of them denied their sin, and after hours of proving they had, they finally admitted to what they did. Did it hurt the church? YES, it was a sad time.

    God forgives each of us our sins if we repent, but the Bible doesn’t say that a pastor can continue to sin and still pastor or lead a church. I hope Martin Luther repented of his evil ways, and the book he wrote, it has done much damage within the church, Germany and the Jewish people, it’s not to be taken lightly. The subject willl not go away, ….. because of the internet, information travels much faster at the click of keys to obtain many pieces of information, ….. I’m not referring to Wikipedia!

    I had the privilege of living and working within a community (West L.A. UCLA, before marriage) where many Jewish people lived. I love, with all my heart the Jewish people, they have been hurt, they are very special. I was able to interview some of the elder Jews who survived the camps, the pain they went through, tears in their eyes as they told their stories…. their arm with identification, forever marked, to prove where they had been, and their great loss. I was able to interview those who were elderly (Gentiles) born, living in Europe during the war. I asked lots of questions, one was “why did your countrymen hate the Jews” – I will never forget the answers, one woman who answered and said “the Jews had most of the businesses and education” it all centered around jealousy.

    The Bible says it best

    A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.
    Proverbs 14:30
    Wrath is cruel, and anger is outrageous; but who is able to stand before envy?</b.
    Proverbs 27:4

    It is no different today Kerner, the envy and jealousy still exist.

    In all conscience, I could never follow a pastor teacher like Luther, it goes against the teachings of the Bible and Christs admonition to love everyone, even our enemies -

    Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34

    Here our LORD hangs, bleeding dying for a sinful world, in the worst kind of pain and He knows their hard hearts, and in His gentle humbleness gives them His farewell as He prays aloud to His Father.

    The Jews are blinded, they don’t see Jesus as the Messiah. Anyone who has studied the Word of God knows this. I don’t know why some of them believe and most others turn their back. I know this, Jews are blind when it comes to Isaiah 53, however, they will listen if you can explain prophecy from the Old Testament, coming to pass in the New, or what has transpired in the past years such as the 6 day war, Jews returning to Israel, using Scripture as proof.

  • Tom Hering

    “What matters to Christian Believers is truth …” – “Grace” @ 116.

    Yes. So you should understand the strong reaction to your deliberate misrepresentations of Luther and Lutherans, as well as to your false gospel of works righteousness.

  • Tom Hering

    “What matters to Christian Believers is truth …” – “Grace” @ 116.

    Yes. So you should understand the strong reaction to your deliberate misrepresentations of Luther and Lutherans, as well as to your false gospel of works righteousness.

  • Grace

    Dr. Luther in 21st Century – 93

    “Stephen, it is one thing to be willing to forgive and it is another to throw pearls before swine. To the unrepentant, forgiveness must be withheld. Grace, in repeatedly post as he/she does is showing a form of unrepentance in showing an unwillingness to be corrected in their false information.”

    How vile, “Swine” I’ve never been referred to as “swine” before.

    You should be ashamed of yourself!

  • Grace

    Dr. Luther in 21st Century – 93

    “Stephen, it is one thing to be willing to forgive and it is another to throw pearls before swine. To the unrepentant, forgiveness must be withheld. Grace, in repeatedly post as he/she does is showing a form of unrepentance in showing an unwillingness to be corrected in their false information.”

    How vile, “Swine” I’ve never been referred to as “swine” before.

    You should be ashamed of yourself!

  • Tom Hering

    “Grace” @ 118, it is a false accusation to say that Doc referred to you, personally, as “swine” when he was referencing Scripture in a discussion with Stephen. It is you who should be ashamed.

  • Tom Hering

    “Grace” @ 118, it is a false accusation to say that Doc referred to you, personally, as “swine” when he was referencing Scripture in a discussion with Stephen. It is you who should be ashamed.

  • Grace

    My post #118 should have addressed post number #92 – Dr. Luther in 21st Century, NOT post #93-

  • Grace

    My post #118 should have addressed post number #92 – Dr. Luther in 21st Century, NOT post #93-

  • kerner

    Grace @ 118:

    “All the excuses in the world do not erase the last three years of Luther’s life.”

    Goodness, Grace, did I not just say (in the very post you responded to) that “I don’t mean for any of this to be construed as an excuse”?

    Did I not earlier say @82 that “There are no excuses for On the Jews and Their Lies. There may be explanations, but no excuses.”?

    You speculated that Luther had a drinking problem by way of an explanation. All I did was respond by informing you that the historical record is that Luther had other problems that may explain his actions. As far as I know, alcoholism was not one of Luther’s problems.

    But I never said that any of Luther’s health problems excuse what he wrote in OTJ&TL. I repeat it now, there is no excuse. The real reason is sin. The weaknesses caused by various health problems may explain why some people commit particular sins at particular times, but they never excuse sin. Not in Martin Luther nor in anyone else.

    “In all conscience, I could never follow a pastorteacher like Luther…”

    Fortunately, nobody is asking you to. Martin Luther is dead. He leads no one. While I respect many things Luther said and did, there are other things he said and did that I deplore (much like yourself).

    But I am not throwing my Bible away because the man who is partly responsible for the most true and accurate interpretation of it had some terrible character flaws that got completely out of control in his old age.

    It is a good thing that you care so deeply for your Jewish friends. There have been several Jews who have befriended me and my family in in our times of great need, and we owe these people a lot. I have tried to explain the Gospel of Jesus Christ to some of them, but I regret not having done so more often than I actually have. Lately I find myself in contact with Muslims and I have find ways to witness to them (also not easy).

    But it is a tragic fact that no matter how much we love these people, indeed no matter how much God loves them, when they reject the redemption Jesus Christ has won with His own blood they reject God Himself. When they reject God and His mercy they condemn themselves to the same place unrepentant thieves and murderers go. I can tell from your comments that you know this. Like Islam and other false religions, Judaism doesn’t save anyone. But God loves all of us enough to have died for us while we were yet sinners, believing in our own works. And he leaves us with the command to love sinners. So we do.

  • kerner

    Grace @ 118:

    “All the excuses in the world do not erase the last three years of Luther’s life.”

    Goodness, Grace, did I not just say (in the very post you responded to) that “I don’t mean for any of this to be construed as an excuse”?

    Did I not earlier say @82 that “There are no excuses for On the Jews and Their Lies. There may be explanations, but no excuses.”?

    You speculated that Luther had a drinking problem by way of an explanation. All I did was respond by informing you that the historical record is that Luther had other problems that may explain his actions. As far as I know, alcoholism was not one of Luther’s problems.

    But I never said that any of Luther’s health problems excuse what he wrote in OTJ&TL. I repeat it now, there is no excuse. The real reason is sin. The weaknesses caused by various health problems may explain why some people commit particular sins at particular times, but they never excuse sin. Not in Martin Luther nor in anyone else.

    “In all conscience, I could never follow a pastorteacher like Luther…”

    Fortunately, nobody is asking you to. Martin Luther is dead. He leads no one. While I respect many things Luther said and did, there are other things he said and did that I deplore (much like yourself).

    But I am not throwing my Bible away because the man who is partly responsible for the most true and accurate interpretation of it had some terrible character flaws that got completely out of control in his old age.

    It is a good thing that you care so deeply for your Jewish friends. There have been several Jews who have befriended me and my family in in our times of great need, and we owe these people a lot. I have tried to explain the Gospel of Jesus Christ to some of them, but I regret not having done so more often than I actually have. Lately I find myself in contact with Muslims and I have find ways to witness to them (also not easy).

    But it is a tragic fact that no matter how much we love these people, indeed no matter how much God loves them, when they reject the redemption Jesus Christ has won with His own blood they reject God Himself. When they reject God and His mercy they condemn themselves to the same place unrepentant thieves and murderers go. I can tell from your comments that you know this. Like Islam and other false religions, Judaism doesn’t save anyone. But God loves all of us enough to have died for us while we were yet sinners, believing in our own works. And he leaves us with the command to love sinners. So we do.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    By Grace’s definition there is no such thing as a pastor as all men sin. How sad to have a flock with no shepherd.

    Grace, I have called you ignorant and a fool, both of which have proven true, but I have not called you a swine. So while I have things to be ashamed of that is not one of them.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    By Grace’s definition there is no such thing as a pastor as all men sin. How sad to have a flock with no shepherd.

    Grace, I have called you ignorant and a fool, both of which have proven true, but I have not called you a swine. So while I have things to be ashamed of that is not one of them.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    Grace:

    I have been asked by people what use these discussions are, when nothing seems to be accomplished, when there is so much wonderful stuff to read and one could fill one’s mind with good things. I ask myself this question, also, though I am always drawn to discussion. When you, as you have been doing, however, dismiss all evidence, suggestions for reading, etc. it seems like discussion is particularly fruitless.

    But I will try once more to point out some things. Please, listen.

    1. I understand your concern for the Jewish people and I know how some of them feel in regard to Luther, having had this discussion with them online and felt the vehemence.

    2. However, to reinforce incorrect information, misconceptions, stereotypes, and as Uwe Siemon-Netto says “cliches”, and to let Jewish people stew in anger and unforgiveness to all things “German”, is wrong, unhelpful, and a reverse racism. Worse, yet, they are prejudiced to the message of the truth and freedom of the Gospel. This is the most lamentable part.

    3. The “Luther and things German is to blame”-stereotype has been perpetuated in various times and places in the English speaking world to the effect of further increasing the harm done. Example: the selection you provided yourself. The English so distrusted Germans for being a hopeless case of militaristic people (does it not see like all of history is war, war and more war?), that they dismissed the underground politicians and church people who provided information came to petition them for help at crucial times. They did not aid.

    4. As Joanne pointed out somewhere, Germany has not been “Lutheran” for a long time. This is where the whole theory breaks down already. Barely a soul reads what he wrote (which is a shame).

    5. The Nazi’s were no church people but cruel oppressors of atheistic and eugenics persuasion (Darwin?). Other nations were also infected with this virus of racial discrimination, which also is born out by the English speaking world’s attitude towards Germans. (And you are participating in this racism by perpetuating the words of such promulgators of propaganda.)

    6. The Nazi’s tried to rope in and manipulate the church into co-operation, and certain parts of the state church were forced into submission. Many others resisted, went underground and died for their convictions. We don’t hear about those in English media. Christians suffered much intimidation, reprisals, prison and death.

    I can only wonder how much courage I would have been able to muster myself under those conditions. I have posted some of the stories of my grandparents and parents during those times. (Some of us need to do no “research” into WW II.) My father was a little boy growing up near the construction site for a concentration camp. My grandmother laid out potatoes for the victims of forced labor to find. My grandmother listened to the BBC broadcasts. All of which was forbidden, and we know what happened to those the Nazi’s did not like. In other parts of Germany people did not even know a shred of what was going on with the “final solution”. There was no internet then and information was strictly controlled. The Nazis ran a dictatorship. If they liked to bring in Luther, it was for further control and manipulation. Lately, during Communist times, Luther was also roped in to be the first Communist for his more socialist ideas. He just has to serve for everything.

    7. Luther is a man who stood up for the Gospel 500 years ago at the threshold of the medieval period to the renaissance. The full weight of mankind’s sin and theories and idealism cannot be laid always at his door. This is completely unfair. No other individual seems to have to carry this kind of burden.

    8. Unfortunately the persecution of Jews was policy of many over many centuries and I am not sure why that was. I would like to learn more about the history of this. For example, I just read a new book, with which I have some problems, Volume 9 of the Christian History Project, which says this about a pope: “Paul IV’s Inquisition cracked down not only on seditious preachers but on prostitutes, usurers, beggars, book peddlers, Moors, and Jews. Wandering “gyrovague” monks, an annoyance in most cities, were rounded up in their hundreds and condemned to the galleys–a slow death.” (p 196)

    7. Why is Luther the scapegoat for policy that was promoted consistently by many? — Still, I do not personally understand why he did not oppose it. He otherwise always said that he wished to fight with the pen and the truth, which he did with great effectiveness.

    8. There is another point that has been made, which lays some of the blame at the door of the RC church. Pope Pius (see the book “Hitler’s Pope”, was at first nuncio to Munich and well acquainted with things in Germany. When he became Pope he wanted to enforce Canon Law and because of this wiped out the Catholic centrist party in Germany. The political vacuum was taken up by the Nazi’s. There is so much that happened.

    9. Then there were all the attempts on Hitler’s life and NONE of them succeeded– it was like the devil had free reign (other nations should have helped before things were too late).

    10. The German population has beat it’s breast with mea-culpa’s for decades upon decades now, paid untold sums of money for reparations, etc., which, of course, does not bring anyone’s loved one back. But how many loved ones did Germans lose? How many were displaced, became refugees, fled the East in icy winter. How many people have been lost in Siberia and places over the decades. And so on and so on.

    11. The difference is for the Jewish people this is genocide. There are not that many left.

    12. For Jewish people, Jews converting to Christianity is a further kind of “genocide” and it is for this reason that Christian teaching is really resisted, in my opinion. Jumping all over Luther is not going to change that idea and all the sudden make Christianity more attractive. If any more Jews convert to Christianity and blend into the mainstream, there will no longer be a Jewish nation. This is the concern.

    I will quit here.

  • http://thoughts-brigitte.blogspot.com Brigitte

    Grace:

    I have been asked by people what use these discussions are, when nothing seems to be accomplished, when there is so much wonderful stuff to read and one could fill one’s mind with good things. I ask myself this question, also, though I am always drawn to discussion. When you, as you have been doing, however, dismiss all evidence, suggestions for reading, etc. it seems like discussion is particularly fruitless.

    But I will try once more to point out some things. Please, listen.

    1. I understand your concern for the Jewish people and I know how some of them feel in regard to Luther, having had this discussion with them online and felt the vehemence.

    2. However, to reinforce incorrect information, misconceptions, stereotypes, and as Uwe Siemon-Netto says “cliches”, and to let Jewish people stew in anger and unforgiveness to all things “German”, is wrong, unhelpful, and a reverse racism. Worse, yet, they are prejudiced to the message of the truth and freedom of the Gospel. This is the most lamentable part.

    3. The “Luther and things German is to blame”-stereotype has been perpetuated in various times and places in the English speaking world to the effect of further increasing the harm done. Example: the selection you provided yourself. The English so distrusted Germans for being a hopeless case of militaristic people (does it not see like all of history is war, war and more war?), that they dismissed the underground politicians and church people who provided information came to petition them for help at crucial times. They did not aid.

    4. As Joanne pointed out somewhere, Germany has not been “Lutheran” for a long time. This is where the whole theory breaks down already. Barely a soul reads what he wrote (which is a shame).

    5. The Nazi’s were no church people but cruel oppressors of atheistic and eugenics persuasion (Darwin?). Other nations were also infected with this virus of racial discrimination, which also is born out by the English speaking world’s attitude towards Germans. (And you are participating in this racism by perpetuating the words of such promulgators of propaganda.)

    6. The Nazi’s tried to rope in and manipulate the church into co-operation, and certain parts of the state church were forced into submission. Many others resisted, went underground and died for their convictions. We don’t hear about those in English media. Christians suffered much intimidation, reprisals, prison and death.

    I can only wonder how much courage I would have been able to muster myself under those conditions. I have posted some of the stories of my grandparents and parents during those times. (Some of us need to do no “research” into WW II.) My father was a little boy growing up near the construction site for a concentration camp. My grandmother laid out potatoes for the victims of forced labor to find. My grandmother listened to the BBC broadcasts. All of which was forbidden, and we know what happened to those the Nazi’s did not like. In other parts of Germany people did not even know a shred of what was going on with the “final solution”. There was no internet then and information was strictly controlled. The Nazis ran a dictatorship. If they liked to bring in Luther, it was for further control and manipulation. Lately, during Communist times, Luther was also roped in to be the first Communist for his more socialist ideas. He just has to serve for everything.

    7. Luther is a man who stood up for the Gospel 500 years ago at the threshold of the medieval period to the renaissance. The full weight of mankind’s sin and theories and idealism cannot be laid always at his door. This is completely unfair. No other individual seems to have to carry this kind of burden.

    8. Unfortunately the persecution of Jews was policy of many over many centuries and I am not sure why that was. I would like to learn more about the history of this. For example, I just read a new book, with which I have some problems, Volume 9 of the Christian History Project, which says this about a pope: “Paul IV’s Inquisition cracked down not only on seditious preachers but on prostitutes, usurers, beggars, book peddlers, Moors, and Jews. Wandering “gyrovague” monks, an annoyance in most cities, were rounded up in their hundreds and condemned to the galleys–a slow death.” (p 196)

    7. Why is Luther the scapegoat for policy that was promoted consistently by many? — Still, I do not personally understand why he did not oppose it. He otherwise always said that he wished to fight with the pen and the truth, which he did with great effectiveness.

    8. There is another point that has been made, which lays some of the blame at the door of the RC church. Pope Pius (see the book “Hitler’s Pope”, was at first nuncio to Munich and well acquainted with things in Germany. When he became Pope he wanted to enforce Canon Law and because of this wiped out the Catholic centrist party in Germany. The political vacuum was taken up by the Nazi’s. There is so much that happened.

    9. Then there were all the attempts on Hitler’s life and NONE of them succeeded– it was like the devil had free reign (other nations should have helped before things were too late).

    10. The German population has beat it’s breast with mea-culpa’s for decades upon decades now, paid untold sums of money for reparations, etc., which, of course, does not bring anyone’s loved one back. But how many loved ones did Germans lose? How many were displaced, became refugees, fled the East in icy winter. How many people have been lost in Siberia and places over the decades. And so on and so on.

    11. The difference is for the Jewish people this is genocide. There are not that many left.

    12. For Jewish people, Jews converting to Christianity is a further kind of “genocide” and it is for this reason that Christian teaching is really resisted, in my opinion. Jumping all over Luther is not going to change that idea and all the sudden make Christianity more attractive. If any more Jews convert to Christianity and blend into the mainstream, there will no longer be a Jewish nation. This is the concern.

    I will quit here.

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 123

    I want to make one point as clear as possible; I don’t have time to read every book, or link that is given or suggested, I choose what I have time for, but I often skip endless requests for reading material. At times the reading ‘pile on’ is way off, and that goes for extremely long posts, some 30+ inches long – LOL I avoid going to blog links, for a variety of reasons.

    “However, to reinforce incorrect information, misconceptions, stereotypes, and as Uwe Siemon-Netto says “cliches”, and to let Jewish people stew in anger and unforgiveness to all things “German”, is wrong, unhelpful, and a reverse racism.

    From your comments, it would seem you haven’t been associated with many Jews, or if you have it’s the strangest scenario I have ever heard. I haven’t met one who “stew in anger” – they have their own lives, they have built more hospitals, and contributed more money to charity than you might imagine. As for “racism” the Jews should not be mentioned as racist in the same breath, as if you might justify Germany in any way shape or form.

    “Worse, yet, they are prejudiced to the message of the truth and freedom of the Gospel. This is the most lamentable part.”

    He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isaiah 53:3

    This was prophecied before Christ was ever born. It should be no surpise, unless of course you haven’t studied this part of Scripture. God knew all of this, He knew who would, and who wouldn’t accept Him before the foundation of the world.

    This thread was to have been about Revelation – in chapters 7 and 14 it reveals there will be 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, …. they are named, the Scripture is explicit, and they will all be virgin Jews males, NOT Gentiles!

    “The German population has beat it’s breast with mea-culpa’s for decades upon decades now, paid untold sums of money for reparations, etc., which, of course, does not bring anyone’s loved one back. But how many loved ones did Germans lose? How many were displaced, became refugees, fled the East in icy winter.

    That would never have happened if the Germans and their cronies had never started the war, or built the death camps – Do you honestly think that the Jews should concern themselves with the very people who stood by and watched this happened…… and then there is the pious phrase, which they feel justified their behavior, >b?”oh, we never knew” –

    As for —– “The German population has beat it’s breast with mea-culpa’s for decades upon decades now, paid untold sums of money for reparations, etc., which, of course, does not bring anyone’s loved one back.” —– that’s a hard cold statement – there would never be enough money to heal the pain and sorrow. Whatever the Jewish people received monitarilly is nothing compared to their loss.

  • Grace

    Brigitte – 123

    I want to make one point as clear as possible; I don’t have time to read every book, or link that is given or suggested, I choose what I have time for, but I often skip endless requests for reading material. At times the reading ‘pile on’ is way off, and that goes for extremely long posts, some 30+ inches long – LOL I avoid going to blog links, for a variety of reasons.

    “However, to reinforce incorrect information, misconceptions, stereotypes, and as Uwe Siemon-Netto says “cliches”, and to let Jewish people stew in anger and unforgiveness to all things “German”, is wrong, unhelpful, and a reverse racism.

    From your comments, it would seem you haven’t been associated with many Jews, or if you have it’s the strangest scenario I have ever heard. I haven’t met one who “stew in anger” – they have their own lives, they have built more hospitals, and contributed more money to charity than you might imagine. As for “racism” the Jews should not be mentioned as racist in the same breath, as if you might justify Germany in any way shape or form.

    “Worse, yet, they are prejudiced to the message of the truth and freedom of the Gospel. This is the most lamentable part.”

    He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isaiah 53:3

    This was prophecied before Christ was ever born. It should be no surpise, unless of course you haven’t studied this part of Scripture. God knew all of this, He knew who would, and who wouldn’t accept Him before the foundation of the world.

    This thread was to have been about Revelation – in chapters 7 and 14 it reveals there will be 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, …. they are named, the Scripture is explicit, and they will all be virgin Jews males, NOT Gentiles!

    “The German population has beat it’s breast with mea-culpa’s for decades upon decades now, paid untold sums of money for reparations, etc., which, of course, does not bring anyone’s loved one back. But how many loved ones did Germans lose? How many were displaced, became refugees, fled the East in icy winter.

    That would never have happened if the Germans and their cronies had never started the war, or built the death camps – Do you honestly think that the Jews should concern themselves with the very people who stood by and watched this happened…… and then there is the pious phrase, which they feel justified their behavior, >b?”oh, we never knew” –

    As for —– “The German population has beat it’s breast with mea-culpa’s for decades upon decades now, paid untold sums of money for reparations, etc., which, of course, does not bring anyone’s loved one back.” —– that’s a hard cold statement – there would never be enough money to heal the pain and sorrow. Whatever the Jewish people received monitarilly is nothing compared to their loss.

  • Grace

    Sorry for all the messed up blockquote!

  • Grace

    Sorry for all the messed up blockquote!

  • Tom Hering

    Let’s see here. “Grace” introduces the Luther/Hitler slander to this thread. Brigitte then addresses some aspects of that slander in points #1 through #8 of her comment @ 123. But does “Grace,” the slanderer, respond to any of those points in her reply @ 124? Of course not, because that would involve actual discussion, and require “Grace” to defend her slander in detail. So “Grace” excuses herself, once again, by claiming she just doesn’t have time to deal with every little thing that others here are deeply concerned about. Because, it seems, she’s too busy holding a ruler up to her monitor’s screen – and measuring the length of posts in inches.

    WebMonk was right. You can’t make this stuff up.

  • Tom Hering

    Let’s see here. “Grace” introduces the Luther/Hitler slander to this thread. Brigitte then addresses some aspects of that slander in points #1 through #8 of her comment @ 123. But does “Grace,” the slanderer, respond to any of those points in her reply @ 124? Of course not, because that would involve actual discussion, and require “Grace” to defend her slander in detail. So “Grace” excuses herself, once again, by claiming she just doesn’t have time to deal with every little thing that others here are deeply concerned about. Because, it seems, she’s too busy holding a ruler up to her monitor’s screen – and measuring the length of posts in inches.

    WebMonk was right. You can’t make this stuff up.

  • Joanne

    I’ve made a spaziergang to Panama City, Florida for the New Years celebration with a few good friends. However, Grace’s knowledge of Luther’s drinking problem has set me to thinking. At first I dismissed it, but then I thought what if? Imagine, Luther the spiritual ancestor or all the alcoholics. Wasn’t Hitler a teetotler?

    More seriously, the bouts of anger and the strong resistance to moderating suggestions from friends. The overly rosey chatter in his letters with Kathe. The home-brewery in the backyard at Wittenberg. Could he, in his last years, as a pain medicator, have slipped into an over dependence on alcohol?

    Just asking. Is Grace a teetotler?

  • Joanne

    I’ve made a spaziergang to Panama City, Florida for the New Years celebration with a few good friends. However, Grace’s knowledge of Luther’s drinking problem has set me to thinking. At first I dismissed it, but then I thought what if? Imagine, Luther the spiritual ancestor or all the alcoholics. Wasn’t Hitler a teetotler?

    More seriously, the bouts of anger and the strong resistance to moderating suggestions from friends. The overly rosey chatter in his letters with Kathe. The home-brewery in the backyard at Wittenberg. Could he, in his last years, as a pain medicator, have slipped into an over dependence on alcohol?

    Just asking. Is Grace a teetotler?

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    It is documented that Hitler was a pill popper.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    It is documented that Hitler was a pill popper.

  • Stephen

    Adolph also had an enormous sweet tooth. Now we are really getting to the bottom of things!

    As Tom has shown over and over, Grace is unwilling to “show her cards” and ascends to a higher plane when it’s time to answer anything directly. But what I want to know is why she hates Luther and Lutheranism so violently and holds on to this hatred with a death grip, and yet . . . she comes back here. All anyone can do is speculate, and since it seems a losing cause to try and convince her otherwise, what is left to do for someone who despises you and/or what you believe and stand for? I still think it is good question to ask.

    I grew up in the south where you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a born-again Christian. I was told many times that my baptism was meaningless and that I was going to hell unless I “accepted” Jesus and had a personal relationship with him. I consider that attitude a kind of bigotry. What’s left to do in that case? I think the only thing I’ve ever witnessed that managed to bridge that divide is when a preacher gets up in the pulpit and preaches the gospel to mixed crowd. I saw this happen recently at a wedding where a Lutheran pastor preached to a church full of Baptists. The Baptists were all “concerned” about what the pastor would say (so I learned later) and were blown away and nourished by the preaching of the cross.

    What to do now? We preach Christ and him crucified. Maybe that is the only thing that will do any “convincing” that needs to be done.

  • Stephen

    Adolph also had an enormous sweet tooth. Now we are really getting to the bottom of things!

    As Tom has shown over and over, Grace is unwilling to “show her cards” and ascends to a higher plane when it’s time to answer anything directly. But what I want to know is why she hates Luther and Lutheranism so violently and holds on to this hatred with a death grip, and yet . . . she comes back here. All anyone can do is speculate, and since it seems a losing cause to try and convince her otherwise, what is left to do for someone who despises you and/or what you believe and stand for? I still think it is good question to ask.

    I grew up in the south where you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a born-again Christian. I was told many times that my baptism was meaningless and that I was going to hell unless I “accepted” Jesus and had a personal relationship with him. I consider that attitude a kind of bigotry. What’s left to do in that case? I think the only thing I’ve ever witnessed that managed to bridge that divide is when a preacher gets up in the pulpit and preaches the gospel to mixed crowd. I saw this happen recently at a wedding where a Lutheran pastor preached to a church full of Baptists. The Baptists were all “concerned” about what the pastor would say (so I learned later) and were blown away and nourished by the preaching of the cross.

    What to do now? We preach Christ and him crucified. Maybe that is the only thing that will do any “convincing” that needs to be done.

  • Grace

    Stephen 129

    “But what I want to know is why she hates Luther and Lutheranism so violently and holds on to this hatred with a death grip”

    Stephen, it is untruthful for you to accuse me of “hate” against Luther, I hate no one – “death grip”? …. Stephen you can’t help yourself, you continue in your quest to further dance down this path.

    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6

    I do not respect Luther because of his hatred for the Jews, it was made clear in his book “The Jews and the Lies” and another book, “Vom Schem Hamphoras” a book which he wrote in 1543. Below the Encyclopedia definition for for the word “Schem Hamphoras” and a quote from the book, by Martin Luther.

    Encyclopedia Definition: Vom Schem Hamphoras

    `Vom Schem Hamphoras` was a book written by German Reformation leader Martin Luther in 1543 in which he equated Jews with the Devil. `Schem Hamphoras` is the Hebrew rabbinic name for the ineffable name of God, the tetragrammaton. The use of the term is in itself a taunt and insult to Jewish sensitivities. It was written several months after Luther published `On the Jews and Their Lies`

    http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Vom%20Schem%20Hamphoras

    “Here in Wittenburg, in our parish church, there is a sow carved into the stone under which lie young pigs and Jews who are sucking; behind the sow stands a rabbi who is lifting up the right leg of the sow, raises behind the sow, bows down and looks with great effort into the Talmud under the sow, as if he wanted to read and see something most difficult and exceptional; no doubt they gained their Shem Hamphoras from that place.”
    Martin Luther

    Refering to the Shem Hamphoras in such a dispicable way, shows Luther’s true heart.

    You make another statement:

    “All anyone can do is speculate, and since it seems a losing cause to try and convince her otherwise, what is left to do for someone who despises you and/or what you believe and stand for?”

    Again Stephen you accuse me of despising you which is dishonest. If you want to talk about “despises” and “hate” Martin Luther is your man, he did hate, and despised God’s chosen people because they wouldn’t believe in Jesus the Messiah. Jesus didn’t hate them back.

    ” I was told many times that my baptism was meaningless and that I was going to hell unless I “accepted” Jesus and had a personal relationship with him. I consider that attitude a kind of bigotry.”

    If people don’t accept Christ as the Messiah, if they don’t believe that He is the Savior, they don’t have Salvation. One has to believe to accept Jesus, accepting Him, believing in Him provides the “personal relationship” –

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23

    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

    The above passages of Scripture refers to a “personal relationship” with Christ Jesus.

  • Grace

    Stephen 129

    “But what I want to know is why she hates Luther and Lutheranism so violently and holds on to this hatred with a death grip”

    Stephen, it is untruthful for you to accuse me of “hate” against Luther, I hate no one – “death grip”? …. Stephen you can’t help yourself, you continue in your quest to further dance down this path.

    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6

    I do not respect Luther because of his hatred for the Jews, it was made clear in his book “The Jews and the Lies” and another book, “Vom Schem Hamphoras” a book which he wrote in 1543. Below the Encyclopedia definition for for the word “Schem Hamphoras” and a quote from the book, by Martin Luther.

    Encyclopedia Definition: Vom Schem Hamphoras

    `Vom Schem Hamphoras` was a book written by German Reformation leader Martin Luther in 1543 in which he equated Jews with the Devil. `Schem Hamphoras` is the Hebrew rabbinic name for the ineffable name of God, the tetragrammaton. The use of the term is in itself a taunt and insult to Jewish sensitivities. It was written several months after Luther published `On the Jews and Their Lies`

    http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Vom%20Schem%20Hamphoras

    “Here in Wittenburg, in our parish church, there is a sow carved into the stone under which lie young pigs and Jews who are sucking; behind the sow stands a rabbi who is lifting up the right leg of the sow, raises behind the sow, bows down and looks with great effort into the Talmud under the sow, as if he wanted to read and see something most difficult and exceptional; no doubt they gained their Shem Hamphoras from that place.”
    Martin Luther

    Refering to the Shem Hamphoras in such a dispicable way, shows Luther’s true heart.

    You make another statement:

    “All anyone can do is speculate, and since it seems a losing cause to try and convince her otherwise, what is left to do for someone who despises you and/or what you believe and stand for?”

    Again Stephen you accuse me of despising you which is dishonest. If you want to talk about “despises” and “hate” Martin Luther is your man, he did hate, and despised God’s chosen people because they wouldn’t believe in Jesus the Messiah. Jesus didn’t hate them back.

    ” I was told many times that my baptism was meaningless and that I was going to hell unless I “accepted” Jesus and had a personal relationship with him. I consider that attitude a kind of bigotry.”

    If people don’t accept Christ as the Messiah, if they don’t believe that He is the Savior, they don’t have Salvation. One has to believe to accept Jesus, accepting Him, believing in Him provides the “personal relationship” –

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23

    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

    The above passages of Scripture refers to a “personal relationship” with Christ Jesus.

  • Tom Hering

    “But what I want to know is why she hates Luther and Lutheranism so violently and holds on to this hatred with a death grip, and yet . . . she comes back here.” – Stephen @ 129.

    Stephen, “Grace” is the opposite of a Messianic Jew, a sort of Judaizing Christian (not strictly defined). Hence, (1.) her Romantic view of Jews and Israel, (2.) her works righteousness, (3.) her use of James to norm Scripture, and (4.) her campaign against Luther who (A.) wrote a rotten little book about the Jews, and (B.) was the greatest opponent of works righteousness since the apostle Paul. As for the rest – her excuses, her denials, her refusal to stoop so low as to explain herself to Lutherans – well, that’s her personality. One can imagine that Luther had to deal, all his post-Theses life, with people like “Grace” in one form or another. So it’s easy to imagine (based on our experience here) why he grew less and less patient with people like “Grace” and eventually – old and sick and tired – just totally lost it.

    That’s my theory anyways, based on the evidence available to us.

    “All anyone can do is speculate, and since it seems a losing cause to try and convince her otherwise, what is left to do for someone who despises you and/or what you believe and stand for?” – @ 129.

    There’s no easy answer. But each of us must follow his or her own conscience in dealing one-on-one with “Grace” (or, in my case, in just commenting on the comments made by “Grace”). It’s never wise to go against conscience.

  • Tom Hering

    “But what I want to know is why she hates Luther and Lutheranism so violently and holds on to this hatred with a death grip, and yet . . . she comes back here.” – Stephen @ 129.

    Stephen, “Grace” is the opposite of a Messianic Jew, a sort of Judaizing Christian (not strictly defined). Hence, (1.) her Romantic view of Jews and Israel, (2.) her works righteousness, (3.) her use of James to norm Scripture, and (4.) her campaign against Luther who (A.) wrote a rotten little book about the Jews, and (B.) was the greatest opponent of works righteousness since the apostle Paul. As for the rest – her excuses, her denials, her refusal to stoop so low as to explain herself to Lutherans – well, that’s her personality. One can imagine that Luther had to deal, all his post-Theses life, with people like “Grace” in one form or another. So it’s easy to imagine (based on our experience here) why he grew less and less patient with people like “Grace” and eventually – old and sick and tired – just totally lost it.

    That’s my theory anyways, based on the evidence available to us.

    “All anyone can do is speculate, and since it seems a losing cause to try and convince her otherwise, what is left to do for someone who despises you and/or what you believe and stand for?” – @ 129.

    There’s no easy answer. But each of us must follow his or her own conscience in dealing one-on-one with “Grace” (or, in my case, in just commenting on the comments made by “Grace”). It’s never wise to go against conscience.

  • Stephen

    Grace –

    I didn’t expect you would like my characterizations, but I am one of the “cradle Lutherans” you look down on. Why do you keep bringing this Luther stuff up? Why? You have been answered every which way and yet you persist. Why? What is it supposed to mean? What response do you need, want, desire, hope for, and why won’t you respond to any of that? Why do you hide and obfuscate and jump around and refuse people even the courtesy of a thoughtful response?

    I also don’t see “accepting Jesus into your heart” or “having a personal relationship” spoken of in scripture anywhere. Pretty much wallpaper this blog with scripture and expect everyone to understand what you mean, disparaging people for having creeds, etc. and yet here is clear indication of you doing sharing your own creed which you think so easily grows right out of the scripture your quote. It doesn’t. It’s a creed developed on faulty, un-biblical theology.

    Jesus called all his disciples. The scripture does not say that they thought it over and agreed it was good idea or made sense. “Immediately they left their nets and followed.” That’s all over the gospel of Mark. Every servant of God in the Holy Scriptures was chosen by God himself. If they “decided” anything, it was to resist God. St. Paul teaches us that the Holy Spirit creates faith. It is a gift from God, not something we conjure up or decide we want. God gives it because we are opposed to God.

    Well, it may not be your intention, but I feel hated by you. Tell me I’m wrong. Convince me otherwise if you care to. For now it would seem that to you, I am a Jew-hater for being Lutheran. I see no other conclusion to draw from your tirades.

  • Stephen

    Grace –

    I didn’t expect you would like my characterizations, but I am one of the “cradle Lutherans” you look down on. Why do you keep bringing this Luther stuff up? Why? You have been answered every which way and yet you persist. Why? What is it supposed to mean? What response do you need, want, desire, hope for, and why won’t you respond to any of that? Why do you hide and obfuscate and jump around and refuse people even the courtesy of a thoughtful response?

    I also don’t see “accepting Jesus into your heart” or “having a personal relationship” spoken of in scripture anywhere. Pretty much wallpaper this blog with scripture and expect everyone to understand what you mean, disparaging people for having creeds, etc. and yet here is clear indication of you doing sharing your own creed which you think so easily grows right out of the scripture your quote. It doesn’t. It’s a creed developed on faulty, un-biblical theology.

    Jesus called all his disciples. The scripture does not say that they thought it over and agreed it was good idea or made sense. “Immediately they left their nets and followed.” That’s all over the gospel of Mark. Every servant of God in the Holy Scriptures was chosen by God himself. If they “decided” anything, it was to resist God. St. Paul teaches us that the Holy Spirit creates faith. It is a gift from God, not something we conjure up or decide we want. God gives it because we are opposed to God.

    Well, it may not be your intention, but I feel hated by you. Tell me I’m wrong. Convince me otherwise if you care to. For now it would seem that to you, I am a Jew-hater for being Lutheran. I see no other conclusion to draw from your tirades.

  • Stephen

    Tom –

    I hope I don’t lose it too. Maybe I already have. I guess I shouldn’t take it personally. If I could peer behind the curtain a little it might help (or so I think). Until that happens (which doesn’t look like it ever will) there is only the command to love, and while I am sort of wanting to compel other in that direction, I feel like I have run out. Not good.

  • Stephen

    Tom –

    I hope I don’t lose it too. Maybe I already have. I guess I shouldn’t take it personally. If I could peer behind the curtain a little it might help (or so I think). Until that happens (which doesn’t look like it ever will) there is only the command to love, and while I am sort of wanting to compel other in that direction, I feel like I have run out. Not good.

  • Joanne

    http://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/the-anti-semitic-pig-in-wittenberg/

    Look, here is someone whose animus toward Luther is as researched as Grace’s.

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2540934 “Luther, Bucer, and Eck on the Jews” Journal of the 16th century, 1985. Now that’s something I’d love to read.

  • Joanne

    http://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/the-anti-semitic-pig-in-wittenberg/

    Look, here is someone whose animus toward Luther is as researched as Grace’s.

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2540934 “Luther, Bucer, and Eck on the Jews” Journal of the 16th century, 1985. Now that’s something I’d love to read.

  • Grace

    Joanne – no gold star for either link. Jstor has many papers which I have read, perhaps you should look deeper into their research.

    As for the other link,…… you’re on your own, that isn’t new they have been there a LOOOOONG time. The photos tell a a dreadful picture, how could anyone dismiss it?

    You may not be aware, but the Christian Belivers have been aware of this for a very long time. Perhaps it has taken the internet, and open communication to BRING IT TO LIGHT. It hasn’t been hidden. The world isn’t as small as one might believe.

    If you live within a insular environment you might have have missed it, but it’s been there all the time . The Christian community is aware !!

  • Grace

    Joanne – no gold star for either link. Jstor has many papers which I have read, perhaps you should look deeper into their research.

    As for the other link,…… you’re on your own, that isn’t new they have been there a LOOOOONG time. The photos tell a a dreadful picture, how could anyone dismiss it?

    You may not be aware, but the Christian Belivers have been aware of this for a very long time. Perhaps it has taken the internet, and open communication to BRING IT TO LIGHT. It hasn’t been hidden. The world isn’t as small as one might believe.

    If you live within a insular environment you might have have missed it, but it’s been there all the time . The Christian community is aware !!

  • Tom Hering

    “… the Christian Belivers have been aware of this for a very long time … The Christian community is aware !!” – “Grace” @ 135.

    It’s pretty clear that when “Grace” talks about Christian believers and Christian community, she’s referring to people who are not us. Not Lutherans. (Not Reformed or Roman Catholic either.)

    In the mind of “Grace,” Christians believers and Christian community are limited to a loose affiliation of non-denominational congregations who are pro-Israel (because of their eschatology), and for whom works-righteousness (or cooperation with God) is necessary to salvation (to the keeping of one’s salvation).

    It’s also pretty clear that “Grace” isn’t here for discussion, but rather to perform a work of accusing and exposing us, in order to gain points with God (as she imagines Him), or with her fellow non-denoms, or with her husband. Probably all three. The more we argue with her, the more points she earns, and when we lose it with her (which is inevitable), she gains bonus persecution points.

    So “Grace” is happy when we agree with her, and happy when we don’t. In fact, she’s ecstatic when we don’t, despite her complaints about the way she’s treated here. Because she knows she’s proving herself a more-than-willing martyr in the battle with all things denominational.

    Good luck to anyone who thinks they can open a crack in a belief system like that.

  • Tom Hering

    “… the Christian Belivers have been aware of this for a very long time … The Christian community is aware !!” – “Grace” @ 135.

    It’s pretty clear that when “Grace” talks about Christian believers and Christian community, she’s referring to people who are not us. Not Lutherans. (Not Reformed or Roman Catholic either.)

    In the mind of “Grace,” Christians believers and Christian community are limited to a loose affiliation of non-denominational congregations who are pro-Israel (because of their eschatology), and for whom works-righteousness (or cooperation with God) is necessary to salvation (to the keeping of one’s salvation).

    It’s also pretty clear that “Grace” isn’t here for discussion, but rather to perform a work of accusing and exposing us, in order to gain points with God (as she imagines Him), or with her fellow non-denoms, or with her husband. Probably all three. The more we argue with her, the more points she earns, and when we lose it with her (which is inevitable), she gains bonus persecution points.

    So “Grace” is happy when we agree with her, and happy when we don’t. In fact, she’s ecstatic when we don’t, despite her complaints about the way she’s treated here. Because she knows she’s proving herself a more-than-willing martyr in the battle with all things denominational.

    Good luck to anyone who thinks they can open a crack in a belief system like that.

  • Joanne

    Is Grace a Sabbatarian (a group of Judaisers in Bohemia/Moravia) against whom Luther wrote one of his famous “anti-semitic” tracts? Luther heard that Jews in the area were encouraging these Christians to follow the old Jewish laws, such as circumcism and Sabbath worship, so he included the Jews in his ferocious polemic against Sabbatarianism/Judaising of Christians. He also heard of conversions to Judaism, to which he was adamantly opposed as a soul killing event.

    If I were a Sabbatarian today, I would know that Luther and the Lutheran church is and has been my religious enemy and by full-measure for over 400 years. Luther and the Lutherans say very clearly and with all the power of the Holy Spirit, that since the Messiah has come, the Christian Church is The Chosen People of God and that those of the Jews who rejected the Son of God, have no place in God’s plan any longer.

    But, if as a Sabbatarian, I believe against scripture, that enemies of God and his Son, can still call themselves “the chosen race, the children of god,” then Luther and the Lutherans are and have been a BIG problem for me. And, just imagine if I went so far as to believe that these enemies of God still had God’s promise to own the Promised Land and to build a tempel to him there, all the while denying his Son. How could I believe such anti-CHRISTian things, and some Lutheran is bound to get up and tell me this in no uncertain terms.

    But, I’m sure Grace doesn’t believe any of these Christ-denying notions about the Jews.

  • Joanne

    Is Grace a Sabbatarian (a group of Judaisers in Bohemia/Moravia) against whom Luther wrote one of his famous “anti-semitic” tracts? Luther heard that Jews in the area were encouraging these Christians to follow the old Jewish laws, such as circumcism and Sabbath worship, so he included the Jews in his ferocious polemic against Sabbatarianism/Judaising of Christians. He also heard of conversions to Judaism, to which he was adamantly opposed as a soul killing event.

    If I were a Sabbatarian today, I would know that Luther and the Lutheran church is and has been my religious enemy and by full-measure for over 400 years. Luther and the Lutherans say very clearly and with all the power of the Holy Spirit, that since the Messiah has come, the Christian Church is The Chosen People of God and that those of the Jews who rejected the Son of God, have no place in God’s plan any longer.

    But, if as a Sabbatarian, I believe against scripture, that enemies of God and his Son, can still call themselves “the chosen race, the children of god,” then Luther and the Lutherans are and have been a BIG problem for me. And, just imagine if I went so far as to believe that these enemies of God still had God’s promise to own the Promised Land and to build a tempel to him there, all the while denying his Son. How could I believe such anti-CHRISTian things, and some Lutheran is bound to get up and tell me this in no uncertain terms.

    But, I’m sure Grace doesn’t believe any of these Christ-denying notions about the Jews.

  • Tom Hering

    Joanne, that’s an excellent comment. I don’t think “Grace” is a Judaizer, strictly defined. But yes, theologically, she has a lot in common with those foolish Galatians, and the Sabbatarians, and the Enthusiasts. As well as being functionally Roman Catholic when it comes to justification. All topped off with Christian Zionism.

    I think the problem we’ve had here, as Lutheran apologists, is that “Grace” isn’t part of a church or a movement with clearly defined doctrines. We know how to argue with the Reformed and Roman Catholics. We just put our clearly defined doctrines up against their clearly defined doctrines. But “Grace” and her fellow non-denoms are mists and vapors: undefined, insubstantial, and impossible to pin down. This serves them well as they go about condemning denominational Christians.

  • Tom Hering

    Joanne, that’s an excellent comment. I don’t think “Grace” is a Judaizer, strictly defined. But yes, theologically, she has a lot in common with those foolish Galatians, and the Sabbatarians, and the Enthusiasts. As well as being functionally Roman Catholic when it comes to justification. All topped off with Christian Zionism.

    I think the problem we’ve had here, as Lutheran apologists, is that “Grace” isn’t part of a church or a movement with clearly defined doctrines. We know how to argue with the Reformed and Roman Catholics. We just put our clearly defined doctrines up against their clearly defined doctrines. But “Grace” and her fellow non-denoms are mists and vapors: undefined, insubstantial, and impossible to pin down. This serves them well as they go about condemning denominational Christians.

  • Tom Hering

    I mean, if I wanted to become anti-Lutheran, I wouldn’t become Reformed or Roman Catholic. I’d become non-denominational, because that way I’d be free to condemn the teachings of Luther and Lutheranism, without having to defend any clear teachings of my own. I’d just counter with a grab-bag of beliefs I happen to like, personally. And say I’m following Jesus and the Bible. Then, if I could point to obvious sins on the part of Luther and Lutherans, all the better. Because I have no founder or denomination that anyone can easily point back at. I’d have the appearance of superior purity.

  • Tom Hering

    I mean, if I wanted to become anti-Lutheran, I wouldn’t become Reformed or Roman Catholic. I’d become non-denominational, because that way I’d be free to condemn the teachings of Luther and Lutheranism, without having to defend any clear teachings of my own. I’d just counter with a grab-bag of beliefs I happen to like, personally. And say I’m following Jesus and the Bible. Then, if I could point to obvious sins on the part of Luther and Lutherans, all the better. Because I have no founder or denomination that anyone can easily point back at. I’d have the appearance of superior purity.

  • Tom Hering

    Of course, in the case of “Grace,” one could point back at Smith, Frisbee, and Calvary Chapel. But it would be a mistake to think that “Grace” identifies with Calvary Chapel the way we identify with the Lutheran Church. Non-denoms hold to church very loosely.

  • Tom Hering

    Of course, in the case of “Grace,” one could point back at Smith, Frisbee, and Calvary Chapel. But it would be a mistake to think that “Grace” identifies with Calvary Chapel the way we identify with the Lutheran Church. Non-denoms hold to church very loosely.

  • Stephen

    Even after having grown up around this kind of thing, as I described, I am still baffled by it. I’ve never felt threatened by it so to speak, though it is insulting, especially when people start picking on my parents and grandparents and all those “cradle” Lutherans I come from. The line goes that they were all misled (that’s the “kindest” version) to they are all cultists.

    I suppose a Mormon would think it arrogant of me to say that they are not Christians in any real sense, regardless of how true it is. What is interesting is to see how non-denominational Christians, in my experience, will turn to what they do or a belief in what they have done (such as “accepting” Jesus) to make their point instead of Jesus Christ himself. They also seem to be completely blind to either the focus of their faith (on themselves) or that fact that they too are leaning on creeds and “confessions” that they have been taught as interpretive vehicles for understanding their faith. They think they have no hermeneutic assumptions, no interpretive lens, etc.

    I think this is the curse of the non-denominational bible college. In some cases I know of, they do not teach church history at all. Non-denominational and born again Christians have no sense of being connected to the church as it has been delivered to them by others who came before, except maybe mom and dad. Beyond that, everyone was pretty much misguided until the Holy
    Spirit arrived at their doorstep. It is the perfect circumstance for the reign of personal piety to be at the center of everything.

  • Stephen

    Even after having grown up around this kind of thing, as I described, I am still baffled by it. I’ve never felt threatened by it so to speak, though it is insulting, especially when people start picking on my parents and grandparents and all those “cradle” Lutherans I come from. The line goes that they were all misled (that’s the “kindest” version) to they are all cultists.

    I suppose a Mormon would think it arrogant of me to say that they are not Christians in any real sense, regardless of how true it is. What is interesting is to see how non-denominational Christians, in my experience, will turn to what they do or a belief in what they have done (such as “accepting” Jesus) to make their point instead of Jesus Christ himself. They also seem to be completely blind to either the focus of their faith (on themselves) or that fact that they too are leaning on creeds and “confessions” that they have been taught as interpretive vehicles for understanding their faith. They think they have no hermeneutic assumptions, no interpretive lens, etc.

    I think this is the curse of the non-denominational bible college. In some cases I know of, they do not teach church history at all. Non-denominational and born again Christians have no sense of being connected to the church as it has been delivered to them by others who came before, except maybe mom and dad. Beyond that, everyone was pretty much misguided until the Holy
    Spirit arrived at their doorstep. It is the perfect circumstance for the reign of personal piety to be at the center of everything.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 1:01 am
    Luther believed that Mary was sinless, –Below a quote from Luther:
    “It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527

    This paragraph might not have been written by Luther (LW 58:434-435). I’ve written extensively on this sermon here: . Luther had this quote deleted from the sermon (see Erl. 15 (2) p.58). He actually rewrote the end of this sermon where the quote in question would be.

    Luther’s later view appears to be that at Christ’s conception the Holy Spirit sanctified Mary so that the child would be born with non-sinful flesh and blood.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 1:01 am
    Luther believed that Mary was sinless, –Below a quote from Luther:
    “It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527

    This paragraph might not have been written by Luther (LW 58:434-435). I’ve written extensively on this sermon here: . Luther had this quote deleted from the sermon (see Erl. 15 (2) p.58). He actually rewrote the end of this sermon where the quote in question would be.

    Luther’s later view appears to be that at Christ’s conception the Holy Spirit sanctified Mary so that the child would be born with non-sinful flesh and blood.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 7:48 pm
    It doesn’t just end with the ugly hatred of the Jews, but Luther’s dislike for the book of Esther in which he states: “”The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much.”Martin Luther

    This is an old botched quote. Esther was a mistake for Esdras. The error stands in all Aurifaber’s editions of the Tabletalk.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 7:48 pm
    It doesn’t just end with the ugly hatred of the Jews, but Luther’s dislike for the book of Esther in which he states: “”The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much.”Martin Luther

    This is an old botched quote. Esther was a mistake for Esdras. The error stands in all Aurifaber’s editions of the Tabletalk.

  • Grace

    James Swan – 142

    “This is an old botched quote. Esther was a mistake for Esdras. The error stands in all Aurifaber’s editions of the Tabletalk.”

    Perhaps…………. however Martin Luther had a venomous hatred of the Jews, for which he wrote the following hateful statement:

    “If Moses should attempt to intimidate you with his stupid Ten Commandments, tell him right out: ‘Chase yourselves to the Jews’ “Martin Luther
    (Works, Wittenberg, ed. V 1573).”[13]

    And then you can count his book “The Jews and their Lies” and if that isn’t enough you can break out:

    “Vom Schem Hamphoras” a book which he wrote in 1543.

    Encyclopedia Definition: Vom Schem Hamphoras

    `Vom Schem Hamphoras` was a book written by German Reformation leader Martin Luther in 1543 in which he equated Jews with the Devil. `Schem Hamphoras` is the Hebrew rabbinic name for the ineffable name of God, the tetragrammaton. The use of the term is in itself a taunt and insult to Jewish sensitivities. It was written several months after Luther published `On the Jews and Their Lies`

    http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Vom%20Schem%20Hamphoras

    “Here in Wittenburg, in our parish church, there is a sow carved into the stone under which lie young pigs and Jews who are sucking; behind the sow stands a rabbi who is lifting up the right leg of the sow, raises behind the sow, bows down and looks with great effort into the Talmud under the sow, as if he wanted to read and see something most difficult and exceptional; no doubt they gained their Shem Hamphoras from that place.”
    Martin Luther

    Disgusting!

    James, there is not one reason for me to believe that Martin Luther loved the Jewish people, he was consumed with hate. The United States of America understands clearly this hatred, as we were involved in one of the ugliest wars of history, that of WW2 –

    I am strongly united with Israel and the Jews, as many other Believer are …. any anti semitic comments or remarks are signaled as hatred of the worst kind.

    Martin Luther slopped up his tracks by what he stated regarding Moses and therefore has little credibility, of course his book ” The Jews and their Lies” and then “Vom Schem Hamphoras” -

  • Grace

    James Swan – 142

    “This is an old botched quote. Esther was a mistake for Esdras. The error stands in all Aurifaber’s editions of the Tabletalk.”

    Perhaps…………. however Martin Luther had a venomous hatred of the Jews, for which he wrote the following hateful statement:

    “If Moses should attempt to intimidate you with his stupid Ten Commandments, tell him right out: ‘Chase yourselves to the Jews’ “Martin Luther
    (Works, Wittenberg, ed. V 1573).”[13]

    And then you can count his book “The Jews and their Lies” and if that isn’t enough you can break out:

    “Vom Schem Hamphoras” a book which he wrote in 1543.

    Encyclopedia Definition: Vom Schem Hamphoras

    `Vom Schem Hamphoras` was a book written by German Reformation leader Martin Luther in 1543 in which he equated Jews with the Devil. `Schem Hamphoras` is the Hebrew rabbinic name for the ineffable name of God, the tetragrammaton. The use of the term is in itself a taunt and insult to Jewish sensitivities. It was written several months after Luther published `On the Jews and Their Lies`

    http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Vom%20Schem%20Hamphoras

    “Here in Wittenburg, in our parish church, there is a sow carved into the stone under which lie young pigs and Jews who are sucking; behind the sow stands a rabbi who is lifting up the right leg of the sow, raises behind the sow, bows down and looks with great effort into the Talmud under the sow, as if he wanted to read and see something most difficult and exceptional; no doubt they gained their Shem Hamphoras from that place.”
    Martin Luther

    Disgusting!

    James, there is not one reason for me to believe that Martin Luther loved the Jewish people, he was consumed with hate. The United States of America understands clearly this hatred, as we were involved in one of the ugliest wars of history, that of WW2 –

    I am strongly united with Israel and the Jews, as many other Believer are …. any anti semitic comments or remarks are signaled as hatred of the worst kind.

    Martin Luther slopped up his tracks by what he stated regarding Moses and therefore has little credibility, of course his book ” The Jews and their Lies” and then “Vom Schem Hamphoras” -

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 143

    ok Grace. Luther said unforgivably ugly things about the Jews. I think everyone here gets that after your repeating this more than a few times.

    Your point is?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 143

    ok Grace. Luther said unforgivably ugly things about the Jews. I think everyone here gets that after your repeating this more than a few times.

    Your point is?

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace January 2, 2011 at 2:44 am
    Perhaps…………. however Martin Luther had a venomous hatred of the Jews, for which he wrote the following hateful statement:
    “If Moses should attempt to intimidate you with his stupid Ten Commandments, tell him right out: ‘Chase yourselves to the Jews’ “Martin Luther (Works, Wittenberg, ed. V 1573).”[13]

    The Wittenberg edition of Luther’s works dates from the years 1539-1558, so you’re lucky to have a copy. “V” probably refers to the volume. “1573″ is most likely not a page number, but rather a year . Your quote though comes from Patrick O’Hare’s book, The Facts About Luther (Illinois: Tan Books, 1987), 311.

    The law commanded God’s people to act in certain ways in order to be acceptable to God. The Gospel though is God’s gift to his people, explaining what he’s done and how he acts toward his people. In that sense, the law was for the Jewish people. Luther then explains that the “enthusiasts” attempt to preach the law as gospel. He explains that the law was binding on the Jewish people.

    Luther states:

    Again one can prove it from the third commandment that Moses does not pertain to Gentiles and Christians. For Paul [Col. 2:16] and the New Testament [Matt. 12:1–12; John 5:16; 7:22–23; 9:14–16] abolish the sabbath, to show us that the sabbath was given to the Jews alone, for whom it is a stern commandment. The prophets referred to it too, that the sabbath of the Jews would be abolished. For Isaiah says in the last chapter, “When the Savior comes, then such will be the time, one sabbath after the other, one month after the other,” etc. This is as though he were trying to say, “It will be the sabbath every day, and the people will be such that they make no distinction between days. For in the New Testament the sabbath is annihilated as regards the crude external observance, for every day is a holy day,” etc. Now if anyone confronts you with Moses and his commandments, and wants to compel you to keep them, simply answer, “Go to the Jews with your Moses; I am no Jew. Do not entangle me with Moses. If I accept Moses in one respect (Paul tells the Galatians in chapter 5[:3]), then I am obligated to keep the entire law.” For not one little period in Moses pertains to us [LW 35:164-165].

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace January 2, 2011 at 2:44 am
    Perhaps…………. however Martin Luther had a venomous hatred of the Jews, for which he wrote the following hateful statement:
    “If Moses should attempt to intimidate you with his stupid Ten Commandments, tell him right out: ‘Chase yourselves to the Jews’ “Martin Luther (Works, Wittenberg, ed. V 1573).”[13]

    The Wittenberg edition of Luther’s works dates from the years 1539-1558, so you’re lucky to have a copy. “V” probably refers to the volume. “1573″ is most likely not a page number, but rather a year . Your quote though comes from Patrick O’Hare’s book, The Facts About Luther (Illinois: Tan Books, 1987), 311.

    The law commanded God’s people to act in certain ways in order to be acceptable to God. The Gospel though is God’s gift to his people, explaining what he’s done and how he acts toward his people. In that sense, the law was for the Jewish people. Luther then explains that the “enthusiasts” attempt to preach the law as gospel. He explains that the law was binding on the Jewish people.

    Luther states:

    Again one can prove it from the third commandment that Moses does not pertain to Gentiles and Christians. For Paul [Col. 2:16] and the New Testament [Matt. 12:1–12; John 5:16; 7:22–23; 9:14–16] abolish the sabbath, to show us that the sabbath was given to the Jews alone, for whom it is a stern commandment. The prophets referred to it too, that the sabbath of the Jews would be abolished. For Isaiah says in the last chapter, “When the Savior comes, then such will be the time, one sabbath after the other, one month after the other,” etc. This is as though he were trying to say, “It will be the sabbath every day, and the people will be such that they make no distinction between days. For in the New Testament the sabbath is annihilated as regards the crude external observance, for every day is a holy day,” etc. Now if anyone confronts you with Moses and his commandments, and wants to compel you to keep them, simply answer, “Go to the Jews with your Moses; I am no Jew. Do not entangle me with Moses. If I accept Moses in one respect (Paul tells the Galatians in chapter 5[:3]), then I am obligated to keep the entire law.” For not one little period in Moses pertains to us [LW 35:164-165].

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    James, there is not one reason for me to believe that Martin Luther loved the Jewish people, he was consumed with hate. The United States of America understands clearly this hatred, as we were involved in one of the ugliest wars of history, that of WW2 –
    I am strongly united with Israel and the Jews, as many other Believer are …. any anti semitic comments or remarks are signaled as hatred of the worst kind.

    Luther’s later anti-Jewish tracts were written from a position different than current anti-Semitism. Luther was born into a society that was anti-Judaic, but it was not the current anti-Judaic type of society that bases it racism on biological factors. Luther had no objections to integrating converted Jews into Christian society. He had nothing against Jews as “Jews.” He had something against their religion because he believed it denied and blasphemed Christ.

    Rather than being motivated by biological factors, Luther’s criticisms were motivated by theological concerns. Luther directed intensely abusive language against Anabaptists, lawyers, the papacy, and the Jews. Luther felt these groups were united in the conviction that men were ultimately made right before God by the law. Anabaptism held a moralistic view of the gospel with an emphasis on the heavy burden of righteousness placed upon men in order to be accepted before God. Lawyers made their living by imposing the law. The papacy was viewed as the antichrist, which promoted a false religion with a false view of salvation through obedience to the law. The Jews had a religion based upon works righteousness. When Luther attacked these groups, he felt he was attacking the devil- the underlying spirit of works righteousness.

    I do not condone Luther’s anti-Jewish writings. To reason though that Luther’s work is somehow nullified because of his anti-Jewish writings is perhaps an argument for an impossible standard: it is to say that one must live a life of perfection in order for their work to have validity. Many examples can be drawn from the Scriptures to prove that God uses sinful people to proclaim his truth. I would have never imagined that Peter, who walked daily with the Lord Jesus Christ, would deny the Gospel and face correction by Paul (Galatians 2:11-21). Solomon “offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places” (1 Kings 3:3) to appease the multiple “foreign women” he married (1 Kings 11). The most striking example is King David, whose legacy includes adultery and conspiracy to murder. Yet God used these men despite heinous sin. The Bible presents the Christian life as a struggle with sin (1 John 1:8-10; Romans 7). It also presents the normal Christian life as a living faith showing itself alive by its works (James 2:14-26; Ephesians 2:8-10). Luther’s life has been scrutinized by countless biographies: those that fairly evaluate his life see a man struggling to live corum deo. As I would stand against Peter’s denial, Solomon’s idolatry, David’s adultery and conspiracy to murder, so I would stand against Luther’s anti-Jewish writings. That a holy God chooses to use sinful men to accomplish his will is an example of his mysterious divine providence: all things work together for His glory.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    James, there is not one reason for me to believe that Martin Luther loved the Jewish people, he was consumed with hate. The United States of America understands clearly this hatred, as we were involved in one of the ugliest wars of history, that of WW2 –
    I am strongly united with Israel and the Jews, as many other Believer are …. any anti semitic comments or remarks are signaled as hatred of the worst kind.

    Luther’s later anti-Jewish tracts were written from a position different than current anti-Semitism. Luther was born into a society that was anti-Judaic, but it was not the current anti-Judaic type of society that bases it racism on biological factors. Luther had no objections to integrating converted Jews into Christian society. He had nothing against Jews as “Jews.” He had something against their religion because he believed it denied and blasphemed Christ.

    Rather than being motivated by biological factors, Luther’s criticisms were motivated by theological concerns. Luther directed intensely abusive language against Anabaptists, lawyers, the papacy, and the Jews. Luther felt these groups were united in the conviction that men were ultimately made right before God by the law. Anabaptism held a moralistic view of the gospel with an emphasis on the heavy burden of righteousness placed upon men in order to be accepted before God. Lawyers made their living by imposing the law. The papacy was viewed as the antichrist, which promoted a false religion with a false view of salvation through obedience to the law. The Jews had a religion based upon works righteousness. When Luther attacked these groups, he felt he was attacking the devil- the underlying spirit of works righteousness.

    I do not condone Luther’s anti-Jewish writings. To reason though that Luther’s work is somehow nullified because of his anti-Jewish writings is perhaps an argument for an impossible standard: it is to say that one must live a life of perfection in order for their work to have validity. Many examples can be drawn from the Scriptures to prove that God uses sinful people to proclaim his truth. I would have never imagined that Peter, who walked daily with the Lord Jesus Christ, would deny the Gospel and face correction by Paul (Galatians 2:11-21). Solomon “offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places” (1 Kings 3:3) to appease the multiple “foreign women” he married (1 Kings 11). The most striking example is King David, whose legacy includes adultery and conspiracy to murder. Yet God used these men despite heinous sin. The Bible presents the Christian life as a struggle with sin (1 John 1:8-10; Romans 7). It also presents the normal Christian life as a living faith showing itself alive by its works (James 2:14-26; Ephesians 2:8-10). Luther’s life has been scrutinized by countless biographies: those that fairly evaluate his life see a man struggling to live corum deo. As I would stand against Peter’s denial, Solomon’s idolatry, David’s adultery and conspiracy to murder, so I would stand against Luther’s anti-Jewish writings. That a holy God chooses to use sinful men to accomplish his will is an example of his mysterious divine providence: all things work together for His glory.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 1:01 am
    Luther believed that Mary was sinless, however this belief is not based on Biblical Scripture but upon the Roman Catholic Church beliefs, which included idolatry on a large scale.Below a quote from Luther:“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
    Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1572

    Luther deleted this quote from the sermon. Luther may have held this in 1527- it’s not even certain if wrote this part of the original sermon.

    Luther’s later view appears to be that at Christ’s conception the Holy Spirit sanctified Mary so that the child would be born with non-sinful flesh and blood

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 1:01 am
    Luther believed that Mary was sinless, however this belief is not based on Biblical Scripture but upon the Roman Catholic Church beliefs, which included idolatry on a large scale.Below a quote from Luther:“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”
    Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1572

    Luther deleted this quote from the sermon. Luther may have held this in 1527- it’s not even certain if wrote this part of the original sermon.

    Luther’s later view appears to be that at Christ’s conception the Holy Spirit sanctified Mary so that the child would be born with non-sinful flesh and blood

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 3:30 pm
    - “but through her to God” ? –

    “One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace. Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” Martin Luther(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

    - “but through her to God” ?

    In a sermon of August 15, 1516, Luther was to say, “O blessed mother! O most worthy virgin! Remember us, and grant that the Lord do such great things to us too.” In 1519, Luther still could exhort his congregation to “call upon the holy angels, particularly his own angel, the Mother of God, and all the apostles and saints” as a comfort in the hour when each was to face their own death. By 1522 things had changed. Erfurt Evangelists questioning Luther on the intercession of saints received this response, “I beseech in Christ that your preachers forbear entering upon questions concerning the saints in heaven and the deceased, and I ask you to turn the attention of people away from these matters in view of the fact…that they are neither profitable nor necessary for salvation. This is also reason why God decided not to let us know anything about His dealings with the deceased. Surely he is not committing a sin who does not call upon any saint but only clings firmly to the one mediator, Jesus Christ.”

    As Luther’s thinking was transformed by a Christ centered hermeneutic, it was inevitable that the harsh judge and the silent idols would be replaced by the true God of the gospel. Christ the cruel judge who had to be appeased by “penance, confession, and works of satisfaction, [and] with the intercession of his mother and of all the saints,” was now Christ the “comfort us poor sinners in the most loving and effective manner.” One was no longer saved by “works, monkery, Masses, and saint worship but exclusively through this Christ.” For Luther, Mary was not a goddess or intercessor. She granted no gifts, and rendered no aid. The only one to cry out to was Christ.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace December 28, 2010 at 3:30 pm
    - “but through her to God” ? –

    “One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace. Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” Martin Luther(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

    - “but through her to God” ?

    In a sermon of August 15, 1516, Luther was to say, “O blessed mother! O most worthy virgin! Remember us, and grant that the Lord do such great things to us too.” In 1519, Luther still could exhort his congregation to “call upon the holy angels, particularly his own angel, the Mother of God, and all the apostles and saints” as a comfort in the hour when each was to face their own death. By 1522 things had changed. Erfurt Evangelists questioning Luther on the intercession of saints received this response, “I beseech in Christ that your preachers forbear entering upon questions concerning the saints in heaven and the deceased, and I ask you to turn the attention of people away from these matters in view of the fact…that they are neither profitable nor necessary for salvation. This is also reason why God decided not to let us know anything about His dealings with the deceased. Surely he is not committing a sin who does not call upon any saint but only clings firmly to the one mediator, Jesus Christ.”

    As Luther’s thinking was transformed by a Christ centered hermeneutic, it was inevitable that the harsh judge and the silent idols would be replaced by the true God of the gospel. Christ the cruel judge who had to be appeased by “penance, confession, and works of satisfaction, [and] with the intercession of his mother and of all the saints,” was now Christ the “comfort us poor sinners in the most loving and effective manner.” One was no longer saved by “works, monkery, Masses, and saint worship but exclusively through this Christ.” For Luther, Mary was not a goddess or intercessor. She granted no gifts, and rendered no aid. The only one to cry out to was Christ.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Sorry about the italics- I must’ve left an html code open. I’m sure Grace’s words are obvious from mine.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Sorry about the italics- I must’ve left an html code open. I’m sure Grace’s words are obvious from mine.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Is there any way to edit the blog comment in which I didn’t close the html code?

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Is there any way to edit the blog comment in which I didn’t close the html code?

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Maybe I can just close it

    Let’s see if this works.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Maybe I can just close it

    Let’s see if this works.

  • Tom Hering

    “Grace” has the brain of a pancake. Not one Lutheran on Cranach has ever turned to Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies to support an argument concerning the Jews or Israel. Yet “Grace” keeps quoting it to us – for months on end now – as if we need to be convinced it’s a rotten little book.

    Why? Because she desperately needs to prove that Lutherans (like all denominational Christians) are false believers – worshiping a man (Martin Luther) rather than Jesus, and following man’s teachings (The Book of Concord) rather than the Bible. Only “Grace” and her ilk (the non-denoms) are True Believers. And the surest sign they’re True Believers is the fact they’re Christian Zionists. Which Lutherans assuredly are not.

    Of course, in the mind of “Grace,” the reason why Lutherans aren’t Christian Zionists is because Luther wrote On the Jews and Their Lies, and Lutherans worship Martin Luther, and … round and round it goes.

  • Tom Hering

    “Grace” has the brain of a pancake. Not one Lutheran on Cranach has ever turned to Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies to support an argument concerning the Jews or Israel. Yet “Grace” keeps quoting it to us – for months on end now – as if we need to be convinced it’s a rotten little book.

    Why? Because she desperately needs to prove that Lutherans (like all denominational Christians) are false believers – worshiping a man (Martin Luther) rather than Jesus, and following man’s teachings (The Book of Concord) rather than the Bible. Only “Grace” and her ilk (the non-denoms) are True Believers. And the surest sign they’re True Believers is the fact they’re Christian Zionists. Which Lutherans assuredly are not.

    Of course, in the mind of “Grace,” the reason why Lutherans aren’t Christian Zionists is because Luther wrote On the Jews and Their Lies, and Lutherans worship Martin Luther, and … round and round it goes.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Hi Tom- I’m so sorry about the italics html code effecting your comment. I keep trying to close it.

    My friend Brigitte alerted me to this post & comments. I see that “Grace” has some mis-directed zeal. With such people, no amount of facts or argument will ever be enough.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Hi Tom- I’m so sorry about the italics html code effecting your comment. I keep trying to close it.

    My friend Brigitte alerted me to this post & comments. I see that “Grace” has some mis-directed zeal. With such people, no amount of facts or argument will ever be enough.

  • Tom Hering

    Hi James. This italics thing happens here all the time. I think it’s tODD who fixes it, but he’s on the West Coast, so it may be a few hours before he wakes up, has his coffee, goes to church, gets back home, etc.

    I agree that facts and reasoned arguments only work with people who are willing to listen to reason. We all know that’s not “Grace.” (I use quotation marks to emphasize the irony of her name.) But defending the Lutheran faith is always worthwhile, regardless of the results. I hope both you and Brigitte will stick around.

  • Tom Hering

    Hi James. This italics thing happens here all the time. I think it’s tODD who fixes it, but he’s on the West Coast, so it may be a few hours before he wakes up, has his coffee, goes to church, gets back home, etc.

    I agree that facts and reasoned arguments only work with people who are willing to listen to reason. We all know that’s not “Grace.” (I use quotation marks to emphasize the irony of her name.) But defending the Lutheran faith is always worthwhile, regardless of the results. I hope both you and Brigitte will stick around.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    “This italics thing happens here all the time” (@155). See, this is the problem with you Lutherans and your cheap grace! “Oh, don’t worry if you mess up at HTML tag and screw everything up for every follower to come! It’ll get magically fixed without your doing anything, just you wait!” What shall I say, then, Tom? Should you (pl.) go on messing up your HTML tags so that the corrections should increase? By no means!

    (James, I’m being snarky, and most likely in a way that will offend Grace, as that is one of her two main functions here besides repeatedly and ill-informedly hammering home how much she hates Martin Luther and will not forgive him; I’m a Lutheran, FYI. Which, as you know, means that I bow down to my Martin Luther altar while I read only from his works — all of them — to which I subscribe unconditionally even as I ignore the Scriptures. Oh, and, like all Lutherans, I hate everything about the Jews. Even klezmer. Oh wait, I’m being snarky again.)

    When do you guys go to church? Are you already back? I haven’t even left yet.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    “This italics thing happens here all the time” (@155). See, this is the problem with you Lutherans and your cheap grace! “Oh, don’t worry if you mess up at HTML tag and screw everything up for every follower to come! It’ll get magically fixed without your doing anything, just you wait!” What shall I say, then, Tom? Should you (pl.) go on messing up your HTML tags so that the corrections should increase? By no means!

    (James, I’m being snarky, and most likely in a way that will offend Grace, as that is one of her two main functions here besides repeatedly and ill-informedly hammering home how much she hates Martin Luther and will not forgive him; I’m a Lutheran, FYI. Which, as you know, means that I bow down to my Martin Luther altar while I read only from his works — all of them — to which I subscribe unconditionally even as I ignore the Scriptures. Oh, and, like all Lutherans, I hate everything about the Jews. Even klezmer. Oh wait, I’m being snarky again.)

    When do you guys go to church? Are you already back? I haven’t even left yet.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Even klezmer

    I actually love klezmer music, and reading Luther!

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Even klezmer

    I actually love klezmer music, and reading Luther!

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    134 Joanne December 31, 2010 at 10:11 pm
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2540934 “Luther, Bucer, and Eck on the Jews” Journal of the 16th century, 1985. Now that’s something I’d love to read.

    I have this article. If you’re interested, contact me via my blog and I’ll get it to you.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    134 Joanne December 31, 2010 at 10:11 pm
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/2540934 “Luther, Bucer, and Eck on the Jews” Journal of the 16th century, 1985. Now that’s something I’d love to read.

    I have this article. If you’re interested, contact me via my blog and I’ll get it to you.

  • Tom Hering

    “What shall I say, then, Tom? Should you (pl.) go on messing up your HTML tags so that the corrections should increase? By no means!” – tODD @ 156.

    Know this, that my HTML tags have been replaced by a Text Formatting Toolbar, in order that my comments might be formatted perfectly, so that I would no longer be a slave to HTML tags; for he who has installed the Toolbar is freed from formatting errors.

    “When do you guys go to church?” – @ 156.

    I go on Wednesdays.

    “Are you already back?” – @ 156.

    Yes.

  • Tom Hering

    “What shall I say, then, Tom? Should you (pl.) go on messing up your HTML tags so that the corrections should increase? By no means!” – tODD @ 156.

    Know this, that my HTML tags have been replaced by a Text Formatting Toolbar, in order that my comments might be formatted perfectly, so that I would no longer be a slave to HTML tags; for he who has installed the Toolbar is freed from formatting errors.

    “When do you guys go to church?” – @ 156.

    I go on Wednesdays.

    “Are you already back?” – @ 156.

    Yes.

  • Joanne

    Hi James,
    I made an online ILL request through my public library for the 16th Century article just last night. However, I think I’d be interested in your blog. I’m sure Grace and I would like a link to it. He he

  • Joanne

    Hi James,
    I made an online ILL request through my public library for the 16th Century article just last night. However, I think I’d be interested in your blog. I’m sure Grace and I would like a link to it. He he

  • Grace

    This might be number one

    James,

    Your attempts to cover-up for Luther’s anti-Semitic work, and his changes in Scripture to suit his purposes are well documented on other sites, such as CARM.

    “How the Reformers were the Custodians of Gnostic Heresy”

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?25301-How-the-Reformers-were-the-Custodians-of-Gnostic-Heresy/page6

    From pages 6 and 7

    James Swan – 10-09-2010 –
    Patristic Arcana – 10-9-2010 – (I believe she is a former Lutheran)

    An interesting thread, one in which Patrisstic Arcana uncovered much information that many try to hide.

  • Grace

    This might be number one

    James,

    Your attempts to cover-up for Luther’s anti-Semitic work, and his changes in Scripture to suit his purposes are well documented on other sites, such as CARM.

    “How the Reformers were the Custodians of Gnostic Heresy”

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?25301-How-the-Reformers-were-the-Custodians-of-Gnostic-Heresy/page6

    From pages 6 and 7

    James Swan – 10-09-2010 –
    Patristic Arcana – 10-9-2010 – (I believe she is a former Lutheran)

    An interesting thread, one in which Patrisstic Arcana uncovered much information that many try to hide.

  • Tom Hering

    I’m predicting another thread with 600-or-so comments before we’re done here. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    I’m predicting another thread with 600-or-so comments before we’re done here. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    “… uncovered much information that many try to hide.” – “Grace” @ 161.

    Ooo! I thought all we had on “Grace” was her bigotry toward Lutherans and denominations in general, her promotion of works righteousness, her functional Roman Catholicism, and her kooky Christian Zionism.

    Now we get to add paranoid conspiracy theorist.

    This promises all the entertainment value found in a complete-series DVD set of one’s favorite TV show. Yippee!

  • Tom Hering

    “… uncovered much information that many try to hide.” – “Grace” @ 161.

    Ooo! I thought all we had on “Grace” was her bigotry toward Lutherans and denominations in general, her promotion of works righteousness, her functional Roman Catholicism, and her kooky Christian Zionism.

    Now we get to add paranoid conspiracy theorist.

    This promises all the entertainment value found in a complete-series DVD set of one’s favorite TV show. Yippee!

  • Joanne

    Or we could just stay focused, like a laser on the difference between:
    Christian Jews and Judaistic Jews
    Anti-Judaism and Anti-semitism
    Zionism for the sake of conscience and Zionism for other reasons

    I’d like to be able to distinguish quickly when Luther is being anti-semitic and when he is being anti-Judaistic. I expect that as a great reformer of the Church, that he must be clearly anti-Judaistic. When is the line crossed into anti-semitism?

    I believe that Zionism can be ok, but that religious Zionism, for a Christian is NOT ok. I can have political and personal reasons for wanting the Jews to have their own homeland, and even for wanting that homeland to be in Israel, but I cannot have religious reasons, especially religious reasons based on the OT, for that Zionism. The Messiah Christ stand squarely in the way of any notion of the non-Christian Jews having a religious claim from the OT on a homeland after the Messiah has come.

    I think this is the crux of Grace’s anger at Luther — his unrelenting anti-Judaism.

  • Joanne

    Or we could just stay focused, like a laser on the difference between:
    Christian Jews and Judaistic Jews
    Anti-Judaism and Anti-semitism
    Zionism for the sake of conscience and Zionism for other reasons

    I’d like to be able to distinguish quickly when Luther is being anti-semitic and when he is being anti-Judaistic. I expect that as a great reformer of the Church, that he must be clearly anti-Judaistic. When is the line crossed into anti-semitism?

    I believe that Zionism can be ok, but that religious Zionism, for a Christian is NOT ok. I can have political and personal reasons for wanting the Jews to have their own homeland, and even for wanting that homeland to be in Israel, but I cannot have religious reasons, especially religious reasons based on the OT, for that Zionism. The Messiah Christ stand squarely in the way of any notion of the non-Christian Jews having a religious claim from the OT on a homeland after the Messiah has come.

    I think this is the crux of Grace’s anger at Luther — his unrelenting anti-Judaism.

  • Tom Hering

    “I think this is the crux of Grace’s anger at Luther – his unrelenting anti-Judaism.” – Joanne @ 164.

    Yes, and also “[Luther's] changes in Scripture to suit his purposes” (“Grace” @ 161). “Grace” is a many-headed hydra. (Wikipedia, Lernaean Hydra, “… the poets mention more heads than the vase-painters could paint, and for each head cut off it grew two more – and poisonous breath so virulent even her tracks were deadly.”)

  • Tom Hering

    “I think this is the crux of Grace’s anger at Luther – his unrelenting anti-Judaism.” – Joanne @ 164.

    Yes, and also “[Luther's] changes in Scripture to suit his purposes” (“Grace” @ 161). “Grace” is a many-headed hydra. (Wikipedia, Lernaean Hydra, “… the poets mention more heads than the vase-painters could paint, and for each head cut off it grew two more – and poisonous breath so virulent even her tracks were deadly.”)

  • Grace

    Another thread from CARM:

    “Martin Luther on the Jews”

    James Swan has MORE excuses for Martin Luther’s anti Semitism – page 3 – #’s 25, 26, 27, 28 and on!

    Ben Masada #46 page 4

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?19526-Martin-Luther-on-the-Jews/page3

  • Grace

    Another thread from CARM:

    “Martin Luther on the Jews”

    James Swan has MORE excuses for Martin Luther’s anti Semitism – page 3 – #’s 25, 26, 27, 28 and on!

    Ben Masada #46 page 4

    http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?19526-Martin-Luther-on-the-Jews/page3

  • Tom Hering

    See? Now it’s not about Luther or the Jews, specifically, anymore – it’s about discrediting James Swan.

    Say hello to the Hydra’s new head.

  • Tom Hering

    See? Now it’s not about Luther or the Jews, specifically, anymore – it’s about discrediting James Swan.

    Say hello to the Hydra’s new head.

  • Grace

    Tom – 167

    “See? Now it’s not about Luther or the Jews, specifically, anymore – it’s about discrediting James Swan.”

    Poor Tom…… Brigitte, (James friend) “alerted” James, and he came running over to help. And you want to talk about “discrediting” after all your corny/childish remarks aimed at me. Ya gotta give credit where credit is due.

    James – 154 “My friend Brigitte alerted me to this post & comments. I see that “Grace” has some mis-directed zeal. With such people, no amount of facts or argument will ever be enough.”

    Facts? – just EXCUSES!

  • Grace

    Tom – 167

    “See? Now it’s not about Luther or the Jews, specifically, anymore – it’s about discrediting James Swan.”

    Poor Tom…… Brigitte, (James friend) “alerted” James, and he came running over to help. And you want to talk about “discrediting” after all your corny/childish remarks aimed at me. Ya gotta give credit where credit is due.

    James – 154 “My friend Brigitte alerted me to this post & comments. I see that “Grace” has some mis-directed zeal. With such people, no amount of facts or argument will ever be enough.”

    Facts? – just EXCUSES!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    It really makes you wonder, doesn’t it, Tom (@167)? Why is Grace here? What is her point? To whom does she think she’s talking, and what is her goal?

    She clearly wants someone to listen, because she keeps showing up again and again, but she’s obviously not interested in listening herself. She refuses to engage in anything like actual discussion, and thinks you’re trying to trick her if you ask her any questions — especially if you call any claims of hers into question. She will repeatedly announce that she “has no time” if you try to show her she’s wrong, but she has all the time in the world to post whatever she wants, often repeatedly.

    She has proven that she is not interested in logic or consistency (or else the same arguments with which she attacks Luther would surely discredit her own beliefs — for Grace, like Luther, is by nature a sinful human being, daily exposing her sins in what she writes, and incapable of pleasing God with her would-be righteousness).

    She keeps making the same point over and over, even without recognizing (1) that no one denies certain parts of her argument, (2) how that part completely fails to apply to anything being discussed or anyone doing the discussing, and (3) why the rest is usually internet-level slander-drivel.

    She refuses to forgive a dead man who cannot personally repent to her — not that she would ever announce forgiveness to him, anyhow — which apparently pleases her mightily, as it apparently gives her carte blanche to piss all over his grave until the day she dies.

    She has no coherent theology, freely denying chunks of Scripture even as she claims it as her sole authority.

    She’s oblivious to how her claims of knowledge make it all the more obvious what she doesn’t know, which is far more than she would have us (or possibly her) believe. She butts heads with people who, by their own arguments, show that they have more understanding and expertise than all of Grace’s claims could ever hope to bluff someone into believing.

    And, when all else fails, she acts offended.

    It’s sad, because she’s proven she can be a pleasant woman. But only, it would seem, when making small talk, chatting about food and drink.

    But she will never relent on her quest to … well, whatever her goal is, at this point. I honestly don’t know. To discredit Calvary Chapel? No, despite its flaws, we have DonS to show that not every member of that denomination exhibits these problems. To discredit Grace herself? Apparently.

    Honestly, Grace, I wish you could see how much your comments — particularly on this thread — have almost completely discredited your crusade, whatever its aim.

    I won’t tell you to give it up, because that would only feed your martyr complex, but I just wish you could see how pointless your comments all are.

    And you’ve already pulled out your supposed big guns (@67), and how pathetic was that? What do you have left, Grace?

    What do you think you’re doing? Are you earning some kind of mythical points for your belief system? Because you don’t seem to care about actually convincing anyone here.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    It really makes you wonder, doesn’t it, Tom (@167)? Why is Grace here? What is her point? To whom does she think she’s talking, and what is her goal?

    She clearly wants someone to listen, because she keeps showing up again and again, but she’s obviously not interested in listening herself. She refuses to engage in anything like actual discussion, and thinks you’re trying to trick her if you ask her any questions — especially if you call any claims of hers into question. She will repeatedly announce that she “has no time” if you try to show her she’s wrong, but she has all the time in the world to post whatever she wants, often repeatedly.

    She has proven that she is not interested in logic or consistency (or else the same arguments with which she attacks Luther would surely discredit her own beliefs — for Grace, like Luther, is by nature a sinful human being, daily exposing her sins in what she writes, and incapable of pleasing God with her would-be righteousness).

    She keeps making the same point over and over, even without recognizing (1) that no one denies certain parts of her argument, (2) how that part completely fails to apply to anything being discussed or anyone doing the discussing, and (3) why the rest is usually internet-level slander-drivel.

    She refuses to forgive a dead man who cannot personally repent to her — not that she would ever announce forgiveness to him, anyhow — which apparently pleases her mightily, as it apparently gives her carte blanche to piss all over his grave until the day she dies.

    She has no coherent theology, freely denying chunks of Scripture even as she claims it as her sole authority.

    She’s oblivious to how her claims of knowledge make it all the more obvious what she doesn’t know, which is far more than she would have us (or possibly her) believe. She butts heads with people who, by their own arguments, show that they have more understanding and expertise than all of Grace’s claims could ever hope to bluff someone into believing.

    And, when all else fails, she acts offended.

    It’s sad, because she’s proven she can be a pleasant woman. But only, it would seem, when making small talk, chatting about food and drink.

    But she will never relent on her quest to … well, whatever her goal is, at this point. I honestly don’t know. To discredit Calvary Chapel? No, despite its flaws, we have DonS to show that not every member of that denomination exhibits these problems. To discredit Grace herself? Apparently.

    Honestly, Grace, I wish you could see how much your comments — particularly on this thread — have almost completely discredited your crusade, whatever its aim.

    I won’t tell you to give it up, because that would only feed your martyr complex, but I just wish you could see how pointless your comments all are.

    And you’ve already pulled out your supposed big guns (@67), and how pathetic was that? What do you have left, Grace?

    What do you think you’re doing? Are you earning some kind of mythical points for your belief system? Because you don’t seem to care about actually convincing anyone here.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Joanne January 2, 2011 at 4:47 pm
    Hi James,I made an online ILL request through my public library for the 16th Century article just last night. However, I think I’d be interested in your blog. I’m sure Grace and I would like a link to it. He he

    On my blog, if you scroll down to the bottom on the right, click on “contact information.” If you want the article, e-mail me, and I’ll send it back to you as a pdf attachment.

    I put together a rather long article on Luther and the Jews back in 2005:

    http://tquid.sharpens.org/luther_Jews.htm

    There’s a lot more information now though on-line, probably a whole lot better than what I put together.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Joanne January 2, 2011 at 4:47 pm
    Hi James,I made an online ILL request through my public library for the 16th Century article just last night. However, I think I’d be interested in your blog. I’m sure Grace and I would like a link to it. He he

    On my blog, if you scroll down to the bottom on the right, click on “contact information.” If you want the article, e-mail me, and I’ll send it back to you as a pdf attachment.

    I put together a rather long article on Luther and the Jews back in 2005:

    http://tquid.sharpens.org/luther_Jews.htm

    There’s a lot more information now though on-line, probably a whole lot better than what I put together.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    James,

    Your attempts to cover-up for Luther’s anti-Semitic work, and his changes in Scripture to suit his purposes are well documented on other sites, such as CARM. “How the Reformers were the Custodians of Gnostic Heresy”http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?25301-How-the-Reformers-were-the-Custodians-of-Gnostic-Heresy/page6 From pages 6 and 7James Swan – 10-09-2010 –
    Patristic Arcana – 10-9-2010 – (I believe she is a former Lutheran)
    An interesting thread, one in which Patrisstic Arcana uncovered much information that many try to hide.

    Wow, I don’t remember that thread at all. I’ve been on CARM for over 10 years. I don’t post there as much as I did in previous years. Thanks though for the link, I don’t regret anything I posted.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    James,

    Your attempts to cover-up for Luther’s anti-Semitic work, and his changes in Scripture to suit his purposes are well documented on other sites, such as CARM. “How the Reformers were the Custodians of Gnostic Heresy”http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?25301-How-the-Reformers-were-the-Custodians-of-Gnostic-Heresy/page6 From pages 6 and 7James Swan – 10-09-2010 –
    Patristic Arcana – 10-9-2010 – (I believe she is a former Lutheran)
    An interesting thread, one in which Patrisstic Arcana uncovered much information that many try to hide.

    Wow, I don’t remember that thread at all. I’ve been on CARM for over 10 years. I don’t post there as much as I did in previous years. Thanks though for the link, I don’t regret anything I posted.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Another thread from CARM:
    “Martin Luther on the Jews”James Swan has MORE excuses for Martin Luther’s anti Semitism – page 3 – #’s 25, 26, 27, 28 and on!
    Ben Masada #46 page 4 http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?19526-Martin-Luther-on-the-Jews/page3

    I’ve been writing on this topic for at least 10 years. I can send you other links if you’d like.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Another thread from CARM:
    “Martin Luther on the Jews”James Swan has MORE excuses for Martin Luther’s anti Semitism – page 3 – #’s 25, 26, 27, 28 and on!
    Ben Masada #46 page 4 http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?19526-Martin-Luther-on-the-Jews/page3

    I’ve been writing on this topic for at least 10 years. I can send you other links if you’d like.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace January 2, 2011 at 6:29 pm
    Poor Tom…… Brigitte, (James friend) “alerted” James, and he came running over to help. And you want to talk about “discrediting” after all your corny/childish remarks aimed at me. Ya gotta give credit where credit is due.

    I’ve read Gene Edward Veith’s blog off and on for quite a while. I don’t though read the comments.

    Brigitte did not ask me to come over here and post. No one here needs my help in responding to you, that’s for sure.

    By the way Grace, where’s your grace? Just curious.

  • http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/ James Swan

    Grace January 2, 2011 at 6:29 pm
    Poor Tom…… Brigitte, (James friend) “alerted” James, and he came running over to help. And you want to talk about “discrediting” after all your corny/childish remarks aimed at me. Ya gotta give credit where credit is due.

    I’ve read Gene Edward Veith’s blog off and on for quite a while. I don’t though read the comments.

    Brigitte did not ask me to come over here and post. No one here needs my help in responding to you, that’s for sure.

    By the way Grace, where’s your grace? Just curious.

  • Tom Hering

    Todd @ 169, I imagine it’s all about her one day hearing the words, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.” It’s certainly not about her listening to our words here and now. The only question is, who will speak “Well done” on that day? Our Lord Jesus Christ, or the Prince of works righteousness?

  • Tom Hering

    Todd @ 169, I imagine it’s all about her one day hearing the words, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.” It’s certainly not about her listening to our words here and now. The only question is, who will speak “Well done” on that day? Our Lord Jesus Christ, or the Prince of works righteousness?

  • Dust

    Dear Grace….hope you know we generally have seemed to get along so far, and hope we continue, but it would be nice to see you “give it up” with regard to Luther and the Jews. We have all been down this path before and it was not pretty. In the meantime, after some rough moments we all seem to pretty much “all get along”. It would seem to me out of respect for the host and the feeling of many on this blog, that we now know pretty well since we have been down this path, that perhaps you could set aside your differences on this topic and move on to other topics. Or at least attempt to check out the links on this topic and read a bit of material that may put things into better perspective, and at least provide a more “fair and balanced” point of view. We all want to learn and we all want to treat our neighbors with some respect and consideration for their feelings….this might be a great place to start that new attitude for the New Year? Another year of grace :)

  • Dust

    Dear Grace….hope you know we generally have seemed to get along so far, and hope we continue, but it would be nice to see you “give it up” with regard to Luther and the Jews. We have all been down this path before and it was not pretty. In the meantime, after some rough moments we all seem to pretty much “all get along”. It would seem to me out of respect for the host and the feeling of many on this blog, that we now know pretty well since we have been down this path, that perhaps you could set aside your differences on this topic and move on to other topics. Or at least attempt to check out the links on this topic and read a bit of material that may put things into better perspective, and at least provide a more “fair and balanced” point of view. We all want to learn and we all want to treat our neighbors with some respect and consideration for their feelings….this might be a great place to start that new attitude for the New Year? Another year of grace :)

  • Grace

    Dear Dust,

    I don’t doubt that some Lutheran’s have been down the path regarding Luther’s anti Semitism, this however is a very big source of questions for most everyone else, who is not Lutheran, maybe that’s what it’s all about – many just sit, listen and read with amazment, and then there are the very few, like myself, who will speak up.

    “Or at least attempt to check out the links on this topic and read a bit of material that may put things into better perspective, and at least provide a more “fair and balanced” point of view.”

    When Lutheran’s come from a point where it is they who feel a need to educate those of us, who are appalled at Luther’s statements, letters, etc., it becomes clear, that if we don’t agree, no matter how Lutheran’s debate the issue, or insist we read all the links, and books – it is WE who, if we did as were told, would finally understand. This Dust, is simply not true. I know for a fact that I, and most everyone who has studied the subject, have done so very carefully, doing endless research, coming up with all the same answers. No matter how all the excuses are positioned, they are not adequate to truth, they are simply excuses.

    Anti Semitism in any form, can never be “fair and balanced” no matter who or where it comes from, there is no excuse.

    Respect goes both ways – when I’m told by anyone that I’m more of a Lutheran than I realize, that isn’t just condescending, it’s completely untrue and unwarranted.

    Your post is very different from the others, you have never called names, or stooped to snarky comments – for that you stand out, above the rest. There are a few others, mostly non Lutherans who are above ‘name calling’ –

    I hope you have a wonderful New Year. :)

    God bless you -

  • Grace

    Dear Dust,

    I don’t doubt that some Lutheran’s have been down the path regarding Luther’s anti Semitism, this however is a very big source of questions for most everyone else, who is not Lutheran, maybe that’s what it’s all about – many just sit, listen and read with amazment, and then there are the very few, like myself, who will speak up.

    “Or at least attempt to check out the links on this topic and read a bit of material that may put things into better perspective, and at least provide a more “fair and balanced” point of view.”

    When Lutheran’s come from a point where it is they who feel a need to educate those of us, who are appalled at Luther’s statements, letters, etc., it becomes clear, that if we don’t agree, no matter how Lutheran’s debate the issue, or insist we read all the links, and books – it is WE who, if we did as were told, would finally understand. This Dust, is simply not true. I know for a fact that I, and most everyone who has studied the subject, have done so very carefully, doing endless research, coming up with all the same answers. No matter how all the excuses are positioned, they are not adequate to truth, they are simply excuses.

    Anti Semitism in any form, can never be “fair and balanced” no matter who or where it comes from, there is no excuse.

    Respect goes both ways – when I’m told by anyone that I’m more of a Lutheran than I realize, that isn’t just condescending, it’s completely untrue and unwarranted.

    Your post is very different from the others, you have never called names, or stooped to snarky comments – for that you stand out, above the rest. There are a few others, mostly non Lutherans who are above ‘name calling’ –

    I hope you have a wonderful New Year. :)

    God bless you -

  • Tom Hering

    “Grace” is in martyr mode.

  • Tom Hering

    “Grace” is in martyr mode.

  • Joanne

    See, Grace is a seeker with a modernist problem with the existence of evil.

  • Joanne

    See, Grace is a seeker with a modernist problem with the existence of evil.

  • Tom Hering

    Joanne, yup. Luther, having sinned against the Jews, can never be forgiven by “Grace.” But he – trusting Jesus with his very last breath – has been forgiven by God’s grace. Which is the better of the two, in the end.

    Thank God we’re all forgiven by grace, and not “Grace.” Amen.

  • Tom Hering

    Joanne, yup. Luther, having sinned against the Jews, can never be forgiven by “Grace.” But he – trusting Jesus with his very last breath – has been forgiven by God’s grace. Which is the better of the two, in the end.

    Thank God we’re all forgiven by grace, and not “Grace.” Amen.

  • Joanne

    Lutherans are so comfortable with evil. We expect evil as our daily starting point. Yesterday was the day remembered for Herod’s Killing of the Innocents, all the boy babies in Bethlehem. Lutherans hear that and wence because babies are not innocent, no matter how young — not even in the womb.

    Lutherans are very UNcomfortable with any innocence that is not Christ’s innocence, and his alone. Christ’s innocence covers our evil and makes us appear to God to be righteous. It’s how God wants to see us, through the cleansing light of his Son.

    Without that Son and his light, everything we do is filthy rags, unacceptable to God. With the Son and his light, everything we do is filthy rags, acceptable to God. The works we do are no different, but God’s mind toward us is made different by his Son.

    Take the Son out of the equation and our access to his innocence and we have nothing but evil and filthy rags.

    Expecting and demanding goodness and innocence from fallen mankind is a recipe for disappointment and dissatifaction.

  • Joanne

    Lutherans are so comfortable with evil. We expect evil as our daily starting point. Yesterday was the day remembered for Herod’s Killing of the Innocents, all the boy babies in Bethlehem. Lutherans hear that and wence because babies are not innocent, no matter how young — not even in the womb.

    Lutherans are very UNcomfortable with any innocence that is not Christ’s innocence, and his alone. Christ’s innocence covers our evil and makes us appear to God to be righteous. It’s how God wants to see us, through the cleansing light of his Son.

    Without that Son and his light, everything we do is filthy rags, unacceptable to God. With the Son and his light, everything we do is filthy rags, acceptable to God. The works we do are no different, but God’s mind toward us is made different by his Son.

    Take the Son out of the equation and our access to his innocence and we have nothing but evil and filthy rags.

    Expecting and demanding goodness and innocence from fallen mankind is a recipe for disappointment and dissatifaction.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    What does all of this have to do with the Christmas story in the book of Revelation? I wish discussion of the posts would not get hijacked with discussion of other issues! Grace, what if I went to a site frequented by mostly Cavalry Chapel folks and harshly attacked your church body’s founders. Naturally, since you and other members of your church have been spiritually helped by them, you and they would find this very offensive. Nor would I go to a mostly Roman Catholic site and bring up the immorality of the Renaissance popes. I might discuss that on my own site or with other people, but I would not go to the Catholic site to insult all of its readers. You know you are welcome here. Please participate. We know you don’t approve of Luther. We still value your company.

    Anyway, the comments on this thread are now CLOSED.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    What does all of this have to do with the Christmas story in the book of Revelation? I wish discussion of the posts would not get hijacked with discussion of other issues! Grace, what if I went to a site frequented by mostly Cavalry Chapel folks and harshly attacked your church body’s founders. Naturally, since you and other members of your church have been spiritually helped by them, you and they would find this very offensive. Nor would I go to a mostly Roman Catholic site and bring up the immorality of the Renaissance popes. I might discuss that on my own site or with other people, but I would not go to the Catholic site to insult all of its readers. You know you are welcome here. Please participate. We know you don’t approve of Luther. We still value your company.

    Anyway, the comments on this thread are now CLOSED.

  • Pingback: Longchamp Soldes

  • Pingback: http://www.biney-architecte.com/stylomontblanc/

  • Pingback: シャネル 財布 コピー

  • Pingback: http://www.radeos.org/polo-ralph-lauren/Ralph Lauren Pas Cher

  • Pingback: casque beats

  • Pingback: nike pas cher

  • Pingback: christian louboutin pas cher

  • Pingback: nike free pas cher

  • Pingback: oakley pas cher

  • Pingback: ケイトスペード

  • Pingback: nike air max australia

  • Pingback: トリーバーチ コピー

  • Pingback: air max 90

  • Pingback: air jordan australia

  • Pingback: nike air max 1 pas cher

  • Pingback: belstaff outlet store

  • Pingback: patagonia sale

  • Pingback: nfl jerseys

  • Pingback: gucci handbags sale

  • Pingback: rolex watches sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots outlet

  • Pingback: uggs outlet online

  • Pingback: discount ugg boots

  • Pingback: lebron james shoes

  • Pingback: nike air max

  • Pingback: guess factory

  • Pingback: coach outlet

  • Pingback: coach black friday sale

  • Pingback: moncler outlet store

  • Pingback: clarks outlet

  • Pingback: nike basketball

  • Pingback: parajumper jacket

  • Pingback: tory burch outlet online

  • Pingback: celine bags on sale

  • Pingback: cheap uggs for sale

  • Pingback: cheap uggs 2014

  • Pingback: kobe bryant shoes

  • Pingback: kd vi

  • Pingback: air jordan

  • Pingback: uggs for sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale

  • Pingback: air max pas cher

  • Pingback: woolrich jackets

  • Pingback: canada goose jackets

  • Pingback: nike shox shoes

  • Pingback: polo outlet

  • Pingback: patagonia outlet

  • Pingback: mbt shoes

  • Pingback: uggs outlet online store

  • Pingback: ugg outlet store

  • Pingback: ugg boots

  • Pingback: prada bags

  • Pingback: chi flat iron sale

  • Pingback: salvatore ferragamo outlet

  • Pingback: louis vuitton outlet

  • Pingback: isabel marant sneakers

  • Pingback: mcm bags

  • Pingback: louis vuitton black friday sale

  • Pingback: chloe handbags

  • Pingback: ugg boots outlet store

  • Pingback: ugg black friday

  • Pingback: moncler outlet store

  • Pingback: ray ban glasses

  • Pingback: canada goose jackets sale

  • Pingback: the north face outlet

  • Pingback: nike dunks

  • Pingback: patagonia jackets

  • Pingback: discount uggs cheap uggs

  • Pingback: reebok shoes

  • Pingback: uggs on sale

  • Pingback: oakley sunglasses

  • Pingback: fake ray bans

  • Pingback: ysl shoes

  • Pingback: north face jackets on sale

  • Pingback: uggs sale clearance

  • Pingback: ugg outlet online

  • Pingback: toms sale

  • Pingback: uggs outlet

  • Pingback: canada goose outlet

  • Pingback: gucci bags

  • Pingback: fendi handbags

  • Pingback: cheap uggs

  • Pingback: beats by dre cheap

  • Pingback: ugg sale

  • Pingback: michael kors handbags

  • Pingback: marc jacobs handbags

  • Pingback: ray ban outlet

  • Pingback: p90x

  • Pingback: new balance outlet

  • Pingback: uggs for cheap

  • Pingback: cheap nike shox

  • Pingback: mulberry outlet

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance outlet

  • Pingback: ralph lauren outlet online

  • Pingback: uggs black friday sale 2014

  • Pingback: burberry outlet

  • Pingback: canada goose black friday

  • Pingback: canada goose outlet sale

  • Pingback: cheap true religion

  • Pingback: coach outlet store online

  • Pingback: nike kd

  • Pingback: gucci handbags

  • Pingback: fitflop shoes sale

  • Pingback: babyliss flat iron

  • Pingback: coach factory outlet online

  • Pingback: kd shoes

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale 2014

  • Pingback: beats by dre black friday 2014

  • Pingback: ugg sale outlet

  • Pingback: tory burch black friday 2014

  • Pingback: belstaff jackets

  • Pingback: dansko shoes

  • Pingback: louboutin outlet

  • Pingback: zumba dvd

  • Pingback: moncler jackets

  • Pingback: north face jackets

  • Pingback: cheap ugg boots for sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance sale

  • Pingback: nike roshe run

  • Pingback: dolce gabbana

  • Pingback: mcm handbags

  • Pingback: miu miu wallet

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale clearance

  • Pingback: north face black friday sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance

  • Pingback: jordan heels

  • Pingback: kd 6

  • Pingback: pandora black friday sale

  • Pingback: cheap christian louboutin

  • Pingback: uggs clearance

  • Pingback: vera bradley black friday 2014

  • Pingback: oakleys sunglasses

  • Pingback: air yeezy

  • Pingback: discount uggs

  • Pingback: kate spade handbags

  • Pingback: balenciaga bag

  • Pingback: belstaff outlet

  • Pingback: north face jacket

  • Pingback: kate spade wallet

  • Pingback: cheap ugg boots

  • Pingback: michael kors bags

  • Pingback: mac makeup

  • Pingback: burberry bags

  • Pingback: christian louboutin discount

  • Pingback: nike black friday

  • Pingback: cheap uggs on sale

  • Pingback: canada goose jacket

  • Pingback: buy cheap ugg boots

  • Pingback: woolrich jackets formen

  • Pingback: michael kors black friday deals 2014

  • Pingback: manolo blahnik

  • Pingback: north face outlet store

  • Pingback: jimmy choo

  • Pingback: north face on sale

  • Pingback: louis vuitton handbags

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale cheap

  • Pingback: pandora bracelets

  • Pingback: longchamp bags

  • Pingback: giuseppe zanotti sneakers

  • Pingback: nike heels

  • Pingback: michael kors outlet handbags

  • Pingback: louis vuitton outlet store

  • Pingback: canada goose jackets for sale

  • Pingback: hollister clearance

  • Pingback: cheap basketball shoes

  • Pingback: kate spade black friday 2014

  • Pingback: furla candy bag

  • Pingback: ugg outlet

  • Pingback: parajumper jacket outlet

  • Pingback: buy celine handbags

  • Pingback: here

  • Pingback: see more

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: cheap prada bags

  • Pingback: michael kors outlet

  • Pingback: look at

  • Pingback: north face sale

  • Pingback: louis vuitton

  • Pingback: website

  • Pingback: uggs sale

  • Pingback: right

  • Pingback: ugg boots outlet store online

  • Pingback: gucci handbags on sale

  • Pingback: url

  • Pingback: canada goose

  • Pingback: good share

  • Pingback: louis vuitton bags

  • Pingback: tods shoes

  • Pingback: burberry black friday 2014

  • Pingback: uggs outlet stores

  • Pingback: juicy couture handbags

  • Pingback: nike air max 95

  • Pingback: parajumper jackets outlet

  • Pingback: brazilian butt lift workout reviews

  • Pingback: north face outlet

  • Pingback: cheap uggs for sale online

  • Pingback: cheap beats by dre

  • Pingback: michael kors purses

  • Pingback: more about

  • Pingback: cheap lebron james shoes

  • Pingback: jimmy choo shoes

  • Pingback: uggs on sale cheap

  • Pingback: isabel marant

  • Pingback: discount ugg boots

  • Pingback: red wing shoes

  • Pingback: nike shox

  • Pingback: michael kors handbags outlet

  • Pingback: new balance shoes

  • Pingback: woolrich jackets for women

  • Pingback: the north face sale

  • Pingback: burberry handbags

  • Pingback: mcm outlet

  • Pingback: ugg outlet online store

  • Pingback: juicy couture outlet

  • Pingback: mulberry bags

  • Pingback: tiffany and co

  • Pingback: prada handbags

  • Pingback: nike free 5

  • Pingback: tory burch shoes

  • Pingback: nike free run 3

  • Pingback: nike store online

  • Pingback: coach bags

  • Pingback: tory burch outlet online

  • Pingback: pandora charms

  • Pingback: nike outlet

  • Pingback: ugg boots uk

  • Pingback: air max

  • Pingback: coach handbags

  • Pingback: kate spade outlet

  • Pingback: longchamp handbags

  • Pingback: ugg boots on sale

  • Pingback: nike shoes

  • Pingback: cheap jordans

  • Pingback: clarks shoes outlet

  • Pingback: nike basketball shoes

  • Pingback: guess factory

  • Pingback: burberry sale

  • Pingback: joe new balance outlet

  • Pingback: genuine ugg boots

  • Pingback: fitflop shoes

  • Pingback: basketball shoes

  • Pingback: genuine uggs

  • Pingback: mbt

  • Pingback: coach purses

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale uk

  • Pingback: pandora rings

  • Pingback: michael kors

  • Pingback: Nike 180 Air Max Womens Black Pink

  • Pingback: cheap uggs uk

  • Pingback: ugg uk

  • Pingback: ugg boots for women

  • Pingback: barbour jacket

  • Pingback: louboutin

  • Pingback: nike air max 2014

  • Pingback: ugg boots outlet

  • Pingback: belstaff

  • Pingback: nike store

  • Pingback: roshe run

  • Pingback: ugg clearance

  • Pingback: christian louboutin

  • Pingback: nike high heels

  • Pingback: gucci outlet

  • Pingback: red bottom shoes

  • Pingback: air jordan shoes

  • Pingback: coach outlet online

  • Pingback: pandora jewelry

  • Pingback: parajumper jackets

  • Pingback: tiffany & co

  • Pingback: nike air max

  • Pingback: christian louboutin shoes

  • Pingback: jimmy choo outlet

  • Pingback: north face

  • Pingback: ugg boots cheap

  • Pingback: nike free 3

  • Pingback: joe new balance

  • Pingback: manolo blahnik shoes

  • Pingback: miu miu handbags

  • Pingback: air max 95

  • Pingback: pandora jewellery

  • Pingback: toms outlet

  • Pingback: coach factory

  • Pingback: air max 2013

  • Pingback: mac cosmetics

  • Pingback: guess outlet

  • Pingback: jordan 11

  • Pingback: new balance sneakers

  • Pingback: coach purse

  • Pingback: furla bags

  • Pingback: fitflops

  • Pingback: ugg boots outlet online

  • Pingback: giuseppe zanotti

  • Pingback: woolrich outlet

  • Pingback: salvatore ferragamo shoes

  • Pingback: nike air max 90

  • Pingback: longchamp outlet

  • Pingback: tods outlet

  • Pingback: fendi bags

  • Pingback: nike factory outlet

  • Pingback: dolce gabbana handbags

  • Pingback: marc jacobs bags

  • Pingback: moncler outlet

  • Pingback: celine bag

  • Pingback: christian louboutin outlet

  • Pingback: ugg boots for men

  • Pingback: babyliss

  • Pingback: tory burch handbags

  • Pingback: pandora bracelet

  • Pingback: babyliss pro

  • Pingback: barbour

  • Pingback: nike free run 5

  • Pingback: air max 90

  • Pingback: discount ugg boots

  • Pingback: miu miu bag

  • Pingback: uggs for sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots uk

  • Pingback: ugg boots cheap

  • Pingback: clarks shoes

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale

  • Pingback: nike air max 2013

  • Pingback: retro jordans

  • Pingback: genuine ugg boots

  • Pingback: uggs outlet stores

  • Pingback: prada bags

  • Pingback: nike shoes

  • Pingback: nike uk

  • Pingback: ugg clearance

  • Pingback: ugg sale

  • Pingback: ferragamo shoes

  • Pingback: oakleys sunglasses

  • Pingback: ugg boots for men

  • Pingback: ugg uk

  • Pingback: north face jackets

  • Pingback: mulberry outlet

  • Pingback: manolo blahnik shoes

  • Pingback: beats by dre cheap

  • Pingback: moncler jacket

  • Pingback: tory burch outlet

  • Pingback: balenciaga handbags

  • Pingback: tory burch sale

  • Pingback: reebok outlet

  • Pingback: tory burch bags

  • Pingback: coach outlet

  • Pingback: furla handbags

  • Pingback: uggs sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots cheap

  • Pingback: air max

  • Pingback: ugg sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance

  • Pingback: christian louboutin sale

  • Pingback: toms shoes

  • Pingback: coach factory outlet

  • Pingback: air max 2014

  • Pingback: jordan shoes

  • Pingback: mcm outlet

  • Pingback: canada goose jacket

  • Pingback: uggs outlet

  • Pingback: ugg clearance

  • Pingback: canada goose jackets

  • Pingback: gucci handbags

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale

  • Pingback: ugg outlet

  • Pingback: Louis Vuitton

  • Pingback: ugg boots outlet

  • Pingback: juicy couture handbags

  • Pingback: ugg outlet

  • Pingback: Louis Vuitton Bags

  • Pingback: nike shox

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance

  • Pingback: cheap uggs

  • Pingback: moncler jackets

  • Pingback: uggs outlet

  • Pingback: ugg boots on sale

  • Pingback: ugg outlet

  • Pingback: ugg clearance

  • Pingback: ugg outlet store

  • Pingback: ugg sale

  • Pingback: marc jacobs bags

  • Pingback: genuine ugg boots

  • Pingback: roshe run

  • Pingback: michael kors handbags

  • Pingback: ugg uk

  • Pingback: uggs for sale

  • Pingback: cheap ugg boots

  • Pingback: gucci handbags

  • Pingback: uggs on sale

  • Pingback: ugg sale

  • Pingback: ugg boots cheap

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance

  • Pingback: uggs on sale

  • Pingback: canada goose jackets

  • Pingback: uggs sale

  • Pingback: isabel marant sneakers

  • Pingback: nike shox

  • Pingback: discount ugg boots

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance

  • Pingback: ugg boots on sale

  • Pingback: dolce gabbana

  • Pingback: cheap uggs

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale uk

  • Pingback: canada goose outlet

  • Pingback: michael kors handbags

  • Pingback: fendi belts

  • Pingback: ugg boots sale

  • Pingback: discount uggs

  • Pingback: cheap uggs uk

  • Pingback: cheap ugg boots

  • Pingback: ugg boots clearance sale

  • Pingback: burberry handbags

  • Pingback: mbt

  • Pingback: discount ugg boots

  • Pingback: kate spade outlet

  • Pingback: fake ray bans free shipping

  • Pingback: cheap tory burch outlet

  • Pingback: cheap oakley sunglasses

  • Pingback: red sole shoes

  • Pingback: cheap jordan shoes

  • Pingback: belstaff sale

  • Pingback: ray ban outlet mall

  • Pingback: uggs for sale cheap

  • Pingback: clarks shoes clearance

  • Pingback: ugg sale clearance

  • Pingback: mbt shoes clearance

  • Pingback: chi straightener

  • Pingback: giuseppe zanotti outlet

  • Pingback: tory burch black friday sale 2014

  • Pingback: ugg clearance boots

  • Pingback: dansko outlet

  • Pingback: isabel marant shoes

  • Pingback: clarks shoes sale

  • Pingback: air max 2015 cheap

  • Pingback: discount uggs boots

  • Pingback: kd 6 shoes

  • Pingback: chi hair products

  • Pingback: ysl outlet

  • Pingback: nike air max 2015

  • Pingback: michael kors outlet online

  • Pingback: ugg boots for girls

  • Pingback: mbt shoes outlet

  • Pingback: canada goose sale

  • Pingback: uggs outlet online

  • Pingback: chi flat iron

  • Pingback: genuine ugg boots uk

  • Pingback: burberry outlet online store

  • Pingback: kevin durant shoes

  • Pingback: air max 2015

  • Pingback: miu miu handbags sale

  • Pingback: pandora uk

  • Pingback: pandora jewelry sale

  • Pingback: mac cosmetics wholesale

  • Pingback: mcm bags on sale

  • Pingback: parajumpers outlet

  • Pingback: roshe runs women

  • Pingback: tory burch outlet sale

  • Pingback: toms on sale

  • Pingback: cheap air max 90

  • Pingback: nike roshe run sale

  • Pingback: mulberry uk

  • Pingback: ray bans outlet stores

  • Pingback: roshe run women

  • Pingback: cheap ugg boots outlet

  • Pingback: chi hair straightener

  • Pingback: nike shox 2014

  • Pingback: nike kd vi

  • Pingback: canada goose jackets on sale

  • Pingback: reebok outlet store

  • Pingback: replica oakleys

  • Pingback: nike black friday 2014

  • Pingback: Babyliss Miracurl

  • Pingback: gucci sale outlet

  • Pingback: pandora charms sale

  • Pingback: nike factory store

  • Pingback: coach black friday sale

  • Pingback: cheap nike free run 5

  • Pingback: air max cheap

  • Pingback: coach bags outlet

  • Pingback: burberry handbags

  • Pingback: uggs clearance

  • Pingback: michael kors handbags on sale

  • Pingback: nike outlet

  • Pingback: kate spade bags

  • Pingback: marc jacobs outlet

  • Pingback: michael kors outlet 2014

  • Pingback: moncler france

  • Pingback: モンクレール アウトレット

  • Pingback: sac longchamp pliage

  • Pingback: moncler pas cher

  • Pingback: longchamp pliage

  • Pingback: louboutins

  • Pingback: christian louboutin uk

  • Pingback: www.insys.fr

  • Pingback: sac longchamp

  • Pingback: doudoune femme moncler

  • Pingback: Christian Louboutin

  • Pingback: abrasivi

  • Pingback: doudoune canada goose

  • Pingback: Parajumpers Jassen

  • Pingback: Abercrombie And Fitch Outlet

  • Pingback: louboutin pas cher

  • Pingback: doudoune moncler homme

  • Pingback: canada goose homme

  • Pingback: cheap nike basketball shoes

  • Pingback: sac longchamp pas cher

  • Pingback: celine handbags

  • Pingback: Louboutin Pas Cher

  • Pingback: moncler france

  • Pingback: doudoune femme moncler

  • Pingback: air max 90

  • Pingback: parka canada goose

  • Pingback: cheap beats by dr dre

  • Pingback: Stylos Mont Blanc

  • Pingback: barbour uk

  • Pingback: longchamp soldes

  • Pingback: sac longchamp

  • Pingback: louboutin shoes

  • Pingback: canada goose paris

  • Pingback: ugg australia sale uk

  • Pingback: sac longchamps pas cher

  • Pingback: beats by dre uk

  • Pingback: louboutin

  • Pingback: Sacs à main Longchamp

  • Pingback: air max femme

  • Pingback: boutique en ligne canada goose

  • Pingback: escarpin louboutin pas cher

  • Pingback: http://www.magregion.fr/wp-content/languages/cache/

  • Pingback: cheap ugg boots uk

  • Pingback: parajumpers heren

  • Pingback: doudoune moncler

  • Pingback: Christian Louboutin Red Sole Shoes Big Lips 120mm Suede Pumps Gray [CL-0177] €136.99

  • Pingback: portefeuille louis vuitton

  • Pingback: louboutin shoes sale

  • Pingback: louboutin sneakers

  • Pingback: louboutin femme pas cher

  • Pingback: Christian Louboutin London

  • Pingback: parajumpers heren

  • Pingback: Red Bottom Shoes

  • Pingback: louboutin bridal shoes

  • Pingback: Christian Louboutin Red Sole Pumps 2014

  • Pingback: woolrich jassen

  • Pingback: Google

  • Pingback: Canada Goose Noir

  • Pingback: Longchamp France

  • Pingback: casque beats pas cher

  • Pingback: boutique moncler paris

  • Pingback: http://www.asls-sermaise.fr/canada-goose.asp

  • Pingback: louboutin soldes

  • Pingback: doudoune moncler femme pas cher

  • Pingback: salomon running

  • Pingback: sacs longchamp

  • Pingback: doudounes moncler

  • Pingback: doudoune moncler femme soldes

  • Pingback: http://www.foncier-assurance.fr

  • Pingback: cheap Casadei Bianca Boots

  • Pingback: bolsos louis vuitton baratas

  • Pingback: Louis Vuitton Outlet

  • Pingback: chaussures louboutin pas cher

  • Pingback: buy ugg boots auckland

  • Pingback: canada goose homme

  • Pingback: louboutin homme pas cher

  • Pingback: achat canada goose en ligne

  • Pingback: Sac à Main Chloé

  • Pingback: http://www.aerion.com.au/temp/

  • Pingback: http://www.lukiprint.fr

  • Pingback: canada goose outlet

  • Pingback: prada outlet

  • Pingback: nike air max 90

  • Pingback: chanel handbags

  • Pingback: louboutin soldes

  • Pingback: timberland boots for women

  • Pingback: louis vuitton outlet


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X