March for Life, 38 years after Roe v. Wade

Yesterday was the annual March for Life in our nation’s capital:

Thousands of bundled-up abortion opponents rallied Monday on the Mall, encouraged by recent federal and state GOP wins and hopeful about proposed measures that would further tighten bans on federal funding for abortions.The Youth Rally and Mass for Life, hosted by the Archdiocese of Washington, marked the 38th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. Annual events tend to focus on mobilizing the young, and Catholic high schools, youth groups and colleges were out in force Monday in Washington. . .  .

“The greatest difference between other civil rights movements and this one is that most of the people affected by Roe v. Wade can’t march on Washington,”[Rev. Mark] Ivany said. “They can’t give great speeches.”. . .

Advocates on both sides of the debate say that the number of governors and legislatures opposing abortion rights grew after last year’s elections. Abortion rights activists say that conservative candidates focused on their economic policies during campaigns and that the wins were not about the public wanting to limit access to abortion. Political experts say it’s unclear how central the issue of abortion will be for new lawmakers in Washington, particularly those with tea party backing.

Lawmakers cheered the crowds Monday in temperatures that hovered in the 20s. House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) said the new Republicans in Congress are the “biggest and the most pro-life freshman class in memory.”

via Thousands of abortion opponents rally in march on Mall.

What do you think the prospects are for the Pro-Life movement?  Don’t you think they are winning the debate?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What do you think the prospects are for the Pro-Life movement?”

    I fear that tolerating child sacrifice invites divine judgement. The wholesale elimination of legal abortion is probably essential to our survival.

    “Don’t you think they are winning the debate?”

    Definitely. Unfortunately abortion is not covered fairly in the media which drives discussion of the issues. The scandalous nature of Roe v. Wade pretty much shows that folks would not have voted to legalize abortion in the first place. The decision has grown less popular over the years.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “What do you think the prospects are for the Pro-Life movement?”

    I fear that tolerating child sacrifice invites divine judgement. The wholesale elimination of legal abortion is probably essential to our survival.

    “Don’t you think they are winning the debate?”

    Definitely. Unfortunately abortion is not covered fairly in the media which drives discussion of the issues. The scandalous nature of Roe v. Wade pretty much shows that folks would not have voted to legalize abortion in the first place. The decision has grown less popular over the years.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    As the U.S. is not the Israel of the Old Testament, I do not foresee divine retribution against the nation over abortion. I am also going to ask is calling child sacrifice going to help win hearts and minds? I am as hard line as you can get when it comes to wanting to ban abortion, I don’t even support abortion in the case of incest or rape. But, I know for a fact I will not convince anybody if I resort to such fighting words type rhetoric even amongst like-minded folks.

    It is a mixed bag I think on how well we are doing in winning over the hearts and minds of people. I think as pre-natal imaging technology improves it will be easier. However, we have to overcome lazy thinking on their side and our side when it comes to conflicting rights. Too many people think in terms of the casuistry of life and health of the mother, the pregnancy version of the Kobyashi Maru, and each side has its lazy way around the issue. Pro-lifers are too apt to abandon the rights of the mother and pro-abortionists are have already abandoned the rights of the child. Very few people seem to be willing to actually deal with finding a suitable solution for both people. Until we clear that hurdle I don’t think we will ever win the war and over turn Roe v Wade, because this obvious emotional argument is going to continue to hold sway on the pro-abortion side as it is easier to feel sympathy for the poor woman and for pro-aborts can point at the patriarchal disregard for women’s rights on the pro-life side.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    As the U.S. is not the Israel of the Old Testament, I do not foresee divine retribution against the nation over abortion. I am also going to ask is calling child sacrifice going to help win hearts and minds? I am as hard line as you can get when it comes to wanting to ban abortion, I don’t even support abortion in the case of incest or rape. But, I know for a fact I will not convince anybody if I resort to such fighting words type rhetoric even amongst like-minded folks.

    It is a mixed bag I think on how well we are doing in winning over the hearts and minds of people. I think as pre-natal imaging technology improves it will be easier. However, we have to overcome lazy thinking on their side and our side when it comes to conflicting rights. Too many people think in terms of the casuistry of life and health of the mother, the pregnancy version of the Kobyashi Maru, and each side has its lazy way around the issue. Pro-lifers are too apt to abandon the rights of the mother and pro-abortionists are have already abandoned the rights of the child. Very few people seem to be willing to actually deal with finding a suitable solution for both people. Until we clear that hurdle I don’t think we will ever win the war and over turn Roe v Wade, because this obvious emotional argument is going to continue to hold sway on the pro-abortion side as it is easier to feel sympathy for the poor woman and for pro-aborts can point at the patriarchal disregard for women’s rights on the pro-life side.

  • DonS

    Pro-life advocates have won the public debate, which is well evidenced by public opinion polls, particularly in the younger population. Eventually, the unwieldy, illogical, and evil Roe v. Wade decision will fall of its own weight, but it will be a while and millions more will lose their lives in the meantime.

  • DonS

    Pro-life advocates have won the public debate, which is well evidenced by public opinion polls, particularly in the younger population. Eventually, the unwieldy, illogical, and evil Roe v. Wade decision will fall of its own weight, but it will be a while and millions more will lose their lives in the meantime.

  • DonS

    I should add that it may well be a justice who graduated from PHC who writes the decision overturning the travesty that is Roe v. Wade

  • DonS

    I should add that it may well be a justice who graduated from PHC who writes the decision overturning the travesty that is Roe v. Wade

  • Carl Vehse

    Political opposition to abortion will remain as a wrong-color-of-socks-to-wear position until the goal of justice is included.

  • Carl Vehse

    Political opposition to abortion will remain as a wrong-color-of-socks-to-wear position until the goal of justice is included.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Further, many religious people simply refuse to admit that many abortions are caused by economic reasons.”

    Because it is not true.

    It is an excuse of the dog-ate-my-homework variety. Women get abortions because they had sex even though they didn’t to get pregnant.

    Were pregnant women starving to death in the USA before Roe v. Wade? If not, the economic issue is just bull.

    “(2) refusing to support meaningful alternatives to abortion, e.g., improved health care for expectant women, job growth, decent housing and wages, and otherwise removing the economic motive that prompts many to seek abortions.”

    This is just not true. Places that score worse in all those categories have lower abortion rates. These are not factors. There is no correlation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Further, many religious people simply refuse to admit that many abortions are caused by economic reasons.”

    Because it is not true.

    It is an excuse of the dog-ate-my-homework variety. Women get abortions because they had sex even though they didn’t to get pregnant.

    Were pregnant women starving to death in the USA before Roe v. Wade? If not, the economic issue is just bull.

    “(2) refusing to support meaningful alternatives to abortion, e.g., improved health care for expectant women, job growth, decent housing and wages, and otherwise removing the economic motive that prompts many to seek abortions.”

    This is just not true. Places that score worse in all those categories have lower abortion rates. These are not factors. There is no correlation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Political opposition to abortion will remain as a wrong-color-of-socks-to-wear position until the goal of justice is included.”

    This reminds me of the civility discussion. Politics dominated by competing self interested groups is wholly different in kind from civic minded politics where the common good is promoted.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Political opposition to abortion will remain as a wrong-color-of-socks-to-wear position until the goal of justice is included.”

    This reminds me of the civility discussion. Politics dominated by competing self interested groups is wholly different in kind from civic minded politics where the common good is promoted.

  • DonS

    John @ 5: But a majority think there should be some restriction on abortion, and believe that Roe v. Wade goes too far. That is considerable progress from where things stood even ten years ago. With our modern imaging technology, too many people have been confronted head-on with the fact that abortion is the murder of a human being and, thankfully, they are repelled by that.

    As for your economic points, just because you don’t support the notion that government solutions are the only or best option doesn’t mean you are doing nothing. Far from it. The pro life movement is deeply involved in lovingly caring for unwed mothers, and for ensuring that they have the opportunity to deliver their baby in a loving and supportive environment. You need to get involved and understand all that is being done in these ministry areas, without the need or desire for government intrusion. Necessarily, many of these ministries operate confidentially, because domestic violence is a common factor in the lives of unwed mothers, and men, in particular, for safety reasons, have no idea of the location or existence of these homes and communities.

    Statistically, most abortions occur for non-economic reasons, often simply for the convenience of the mother and/or father. That is the simple and stark truth. Very few mommies otherwise having a moral core will murder their baby purely for economic reasons, despite your apparent low opinion of those having challenged economic circumstances. They will find another way to bring their child into the world alive.

  • DonS

    John @ 5: But a majority think there should be some restriction on abortion, and believe that Roe v. Wade goes too far. That is considerable progress from where things stood even ten years ago. With our modern imaging technology, too many people have been confronted head-on with the fact that abortion is the murder of a human being and, thankfully, they are repelled by that.

    As for your economic points, just because you don’t support the notion that government solutions are the only or best option doesn’t mean you are doing nothing. Far from it. The pro life movement is deeply involved in lovingly caring for unwed mothers, and for ensuring that they have the opportunity to deliver their baby in a loving and supportive environment. You need to get involved and understand all that is being done in these ministry areas, without the need or desire for government intrusion. Necessarily, many of these ministries operate confidentially, because domestic violence is a common factor in the lives of unwed mothers, and men, in particular, for safety reasons, have no idea of the location or existence of these homes and communities.

    Statistically, most abortions occur for non-economic reasons, often simply for the convenience of the mother and/or father. That is the simple and stark truth. Very few mommies otherwise having a moral core will murder their baby purely for economic reasons, despite your apparent low opinion of those having challenged economic circumstances. They will find another way to bring their child into the world alive.

  • LAJ

    In Minnesota part of the mission of the pro life organization MCCL is to educate. They have put up amazing billboards that show adorable babies and positive information about them before birth. Are other states doing the same?

    Norma McCorvey, who was Roe in Roe v Wade wrote a book about her life called Won By Love. Worth reading if you are interested. Also, there is a recent book out in Christian book stores soon by a former employee of an abortion clinic, who all of a sudden was overcome by seeing an ultrasound.

  • LAJ

    In Minnesota part of the mission of the pro life organization MCCL is to educate. They have put up amazing billboards that show adorable babies and positive information about them before birth. Are other states doing the same?

    Norma McCorvey, who was Roe in Roe v Wade wrote a book about her life called Won By Love. Worth reading if you are interested. Also, there is a recent book out in Christian book stores soon by a former employee of an abortion clinic, who all of a sudden was overcome by seeing an ultrasound.

  • Grace

    SELFISH – EGO, – that is the main reason women choose abortion, they don’t want to be burdened with a child, because it will interfere with their plans, (college, career, etc.) nor do they want to face the possibility that their chances of marrying while caring for a child, born out of wedlock will be limited.

    I hate abortion, or anything connected to it – as many of you know, I have been posting on the “Gestational carrier” thread, which is about surrogacy, In Vitro Fertilization (especially Posts 108, 110 and 111) – it too, has many of the ramifications of abortion, much to many peoples surprise,…. or perhaps shock!

    http://www.geneveith.com/2011/01/19/gestational-carrier/

    Embryonic stem cells, embryos being frozen after couples use some of the sperm/eggs from the petri dish, then left in the freezer for years, for a monthly charge. Some couples choose to pay monthly fees to keep them frozen, or they can have them trashed, others choose to use their embryos (blooming infants) to be used in science experiments. All of which is wrong, it’s abortion with a different twist.

  • Grace

    SELFISH – EGO, – that is the main reason women choose abortion, they don’t want to be burdened with a child, because it will interfere with their plans, (college, career, etc.) nor do they want to face the possibility that their chances of marrying while caring for a child, born out of wedlock will be limited.

    I hate abortion, or anything connected to it – as many of you know, I have been posting on the “Gestational carrier” thread, which is about surrogacy, In Vitro Fertilization (especially Posts 108, 110 and 111) – it too, has many of the ramifications of abortion, much to many peoples surprise,…. or perhaps shock!

    http://www.geneveith.com/2011/01/19/gestational-carrier/

    Embryonic stem cells, embryos being frozen after couples use some of the sperm/eggs from the petri dish, then left in the freezer for years, for a monthly charge. Some couples choose to pay monthly fees to keep them frozen, or they can have them trashed, others choose to use their embryos (blooming infants) to be used in science experiments. All of which is wrong, it’s abortion with a different twist.

  • Grace

    “The Rev. Mark Ivany of the Catholic Church of the Little Flower in Bethesda, who delivered the homily at Verizon Center, compared attendees to activists from previous eras who fought against slavery and for women’s right to vote.

    “The greatest difference between other civil rights movements and this one is that most of the people affected by Roe v. Wade can’t march on Washington,” Ivany said. “They can’t give great speeches.”

    I believe there might be someone who cannot give a great speech, nor be learned in the laws of the land, nor attended an outstanding college, or even law school, could very well be gifted from the LORD to speak in such a way as to touch the cold hearts, which lack the love from our LORD and Savior, standing in the gap for all the children who have been aborted, and those who will be aborted today, this very hour and minute. God uses men and women who are ordinary, to do those those things which are extra-ordinary, by the hand of God ALMIGHTY!

  • Grace

    “The Rev. Mark Ivany of the Catholic Church of the Little Flower in Bethesda, who delivered the homily at Verizon Center, compared attendees to activists from previous eras who fought against slavery and for women’s right to vote.

    “The greatest difference between other civil rights movements and this one is that most of the people affected by Roe v. Wade can’t march on Washington,” Ivany said. “They can’t give great speeches.”

    I believe there might be someone who cannot give a great speech, nor be learned in the laws of the land, nor attended an outstanding college, or even law school, could very well be gifted from the LORD to speak in such a way as to touch the cold hearts, which lack the love from our LORD and Savior, standing in the gap for all the children who have been aborted, and those who will be aborted today, this very hour and minute. God uses men and women who are ordinary, to do those those things which are extra-ordinary, by the hand of God ALMIGHTY!

  • Ryan

    ‘The greatest difference between other civil rights movements and this one is that most of the people affected by Roe v. Wade can’t march on Washington’ I disagree with this statement as it stands, If you are under 38 you have been effected, there was a span of time in your life where our Government permitted you to be murdered basically because you were inconvenient. Of course that changes after your born. I was conceived in one of these ideal cases for abortion – out of wedlock, high school student (valedictorian no less – great career ahead if it wasn’t for the child), low income. Thanks be to God my biological Mother carried me to term and placed me up for adoption (go Lutheran Social Services!) and I was raised by two awesome parents. I’m a pastor now in the LCMS. In my opinion, my life is valuable and I have contributed to the greater good, despite what my country’s law implied and thus permitted early in my life.

  • Ryan

    ‘The greatest difference between other civil rights movements and this one is that most of the people affected by Roe v. Wade can’t march on Washington’ I disagree with this statement as it stands, If you are under 38 you have been effected, there was a span of time in your life where our Government permitted you to be murdered basically because you were inconvenient. Of course that changes after your born. I was conceived in one of these ideal cases for abortion – out of wedlock, high school student (valedictorian no less – great career ahead if it wasn’t for the child), low income. Thanks be to God my biological Mother carried me to term and placed me up for adoption (go Lutheran Social Services!) and I was raised by two awesome parents. I’m a pastor now in the LCMS. In my opinion, my life is valuable and I have contributed to the greater good, despite what my country’s law implied and thus permitted early in my life.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s plain that a majority of Americans do not favor repeal or the overturning of Roe v. Wade, though many want restraints on late-term abortions.”

    Obviously they don’t understand what the Roe v. Wade decision is because it is incompatible with meaningful restraints on late term abortions.

    Most European nations have very strict limits on elective abortions, specifically designed to burden the woman’s choice to abort which is clearly opposite of the language of Roe v. Wade. Ireland has a near ban on abortion.

    Roe v. Wade is an especially poor decision because it contains no basis in law.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s plain that a majority of Americans do not favor repeal or the overturning of Roe v. Wade, though many want restraints on late-term abortions.”

    Obviously they don’t understand what the Roe v. Wade decision is because it is incompatible with meaningful restraints on late term abortions.

    Most European nations have very strict limits on elective abortions, specifically designed to burden the woman’s choice to abort which is clearly opposite of the language of Roe v. Wade. Ireland has a near ban on abortion.

    Roe v. Wade is an especially poor decision because it contains no basis in law.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “it’s doubtful abortion would be outlawed altogether, much less punished as premeditated murder.”

    I agree, seeing as how that is how it was before Roe v. Wade. Abortion was legal for extreme circumstances. The laws provided for jail time for abortionists and a loss of their medical license. That was enough to deter rational folks. Few relished killing babies to the extent they would jeopardize their own professional credentials and continued freedom and prosperity.

    I have often wondered what proportion of women who procured illegal abortions were prostitutes. They would have had connections to those involved in other illegal activities and willing to find and coerce marginal doctors. Also, they would have had a specific incentive as they made their living as prostitutes.

    Nowadays, abortion being so readily available means that sexually abusive men can quickly and easily cover their crimes by forcing their victims to get abortions.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “it’s doubtful abortion would be outlawed altogether, much less punished as premeditated murder.”

    I agree, seeing as how that is how it was before Roe v. Wade. Abortion was legal for extreme circumstances. The laws provided for jail time for abortionists and a loss of their medical license. That was enough to deter rational folks. Few relished killing babies to the extent they would jeopardize their own professional credentials and continued freedom and prosperity.

    I have often wondered what proportion of women who procured illegal abortions were prostitutes. They would have had connections to those involved in other illegal activities and willing to find and coerce marginal doctors. Also, they would have had a specific incentive as they made their living as prostitutes.

    Nowadays, abortion being so readily available means that sexually abusive men can quickly and easily cover their crimes by forcing their victims to get abortions.

  • Grace

    Ryan,

    Thank you for telling your story. Your biological mother had a heart, I wish there were more just like her.

    Keep telling your story.

    God bless you.

  • Grace

    Ryan,

    Thank you for telling your story. Your biological mother had a heart, I wish there were more just like her.

    Keep telling your story.

    God bless you.

  • Booklover

    Ryan, praise Jesus you are alive!! Keep telling your story!! And you are a pastor!

    I just heard a remarkable woman on a “His People” interview on Pilgrim Radio. Her name is Melissa Ohden, and she is a survivor of a saline abortion; meaning they tried to salt her to death, but she was born alive and survived. She is a beautiful woman, inside and out, and speaks in love and forgiveness for her biological mother; and she also speaks to educate. May God give people like this the strength to continue telling their stories.

    http://www.melissaohden.com/

  • Booklover

    Ryan, praise Jesus you are alive!! Keep telling your story!! And you are a pastor!

    I just heard a remarkable woman on a “His People” interview on Pilgrim Radio. Her name is Melissa Ohden, and she is a survivor of a saline abortion; meaning they tried to salt her to death, but she was born alive and survived. She is a beautiful woman, inside and out, and speaks in love and forgiveness for her biological mother; and she also speaks to educate. May God give people like this the strength to continue telling their stories.

    http://www.melissaohden.com/

  • Carl Vehse

    According to NewsBusters, “ABC, CBS, NBC All Ignore 2011 ‘March for Life’ In Mon. Evening, Tues. Morning News Coverage“:

    “None of the broadcast news programs from Monday evening and Tuesday morning covered the 2011 “March for Life” in Washington, DC, a pro-life rally that reportedly drew at least tens of thousands of attendees….

    Among the stories featured on the broadcast news networks Monday evening and Tuesday morning included a 13-minute segment on the upcoming Academy Awards on CBS’s “Early Show,” over 20 minutes dedicated to the Oscar nominees on NBC’s “Today,” and segments on Oprah Winfrey re-uniting with her long-lost half-sister on national television.”

  • Carl Vehse

    According to NewsBusters, “ABC, CBS, NBC All Ignore 2011 ‘March for Life’ In Mon. Evening, Tues. Morning News Coverage“:

    “None of the broadcast news programs from Monday evening and Tuesday morning covered the 2011 “March for Life” in Washington, DC, a pro-life rally that reportedly drew at least tens of thousands of attendees….

    Among the stories featured on the broadcast news networks Monday evening and Tuesday morning included a 13-minute segment on the upcoming Academy Awards on CBS’s “Early Show,” over 20 minutes dedicated to the Oscar nominees on NBC’s “Today,” and segments on Oprah Winfrey re-uniting with her long-lost half-sister on national television.”

  • DonS

    John @ 11: From your last post, it’s hard to know if you are part of the pro-life movement or a Planned Parenthood plant. I will put the best construction on your comment and assume you are not an abortion supporter.

    You cited to a Guttmacher Institute study. You do realize their connection to Planned Parenthood, don’t you? There is not much credibility in studies furthered by that evil organization. Sorry.

  • DonS

    John @ 11: From your last post, it’s hard to know if you are part of the pro-life movement or a Planned Parenthood plant. I will put the best construction on your comment and assume you are not an abortion supporter.

    You cited to a Guttmacher Institute study. You do realize their connection to Planned Parenthood, don’t you? There is not much credibility in studies furthered by that evil organization. Sorry.

  • DonS

    Moreover, John @ 11, the study you cited is 7 years old. Ancient history in the abortion world, as much of the uptick in opposition to current U.S. abortion policy has been measured in the past 3-5 years by reputable pollsters such as Gallup.

  • DonS

    Moreover, John @ 11, the study you cited is 7 years old. Ancient history in the abortion world, as much of the uptick in opposition to current U.S. abortion policy has been measured in the past 3-5 years by reputable pollsters such as Gallup.

  • http://www.missyween.com missy

    I don’t think we are making much progress at all, in North America, in terms of protection of life for the unborn or for the elderly and infirm who are also inconvenient.
    Taking the opportunity provided by last weekends recognition of
    Roe v Wade, I brought up the topic among my neighbours at a dinner party the other night. None are Christians……and the topic did turn to euthanizing the elderly and those who had “biological but not bibliographic” life. All present took it in stride that it is inhuman to require any person to endure a life that is below their agreed upon standard of “optimal” and all felt that the Christian position, which I stated was that compassion means caring gently for the infirm and not allowing them to end their lives, was cruel and inhumane and represented a type of prudish sadistic torture which they held that Christians seem to enjoy.

    This was such a sad conversation. And all minds were absolutely closed upon the subject. Thankfully anger was kept to a minimum.

    It inspired me to write a post at my own blog about my mother who was nearly euthanized herself, and who all these neighbours of mine now know and love, yet refuse to recognize the cruel truth that many like her have been allowed to die when life would have been a better option.

  • http://www.missyween.com missy

    I don’t think we are making much progress at all, in North America, in terms of protection of life for the unborn or for the elderly and infirm who are also inconvenient.
    Taking the opportunity provided by last weekends recognition of
    Roe v Wade, I brought up the topic among my neighbours at a dinner party the other night. None are Christians……and the topic did turn to euthanizing the elderly and those who had “biological but not bibliographic” life. All present took it in stride that it is inhuman to require any person to endure a life that is below their agreed upon standard of “optimal” and all felt that the Christian position, which I stated was that compassion means caring gently for the infirm and not allowing them to end their lives, was cruel and inhumane and represented a type of prudish sadistic torture which they held that Christians seem to enjoy.

    This was such a sad conversation. And all minds were absolutely closed upon the subject. Thankfully anger was kept to a minimum.

    It inspired me to write a post at my own blog about my mother who was nearly euthanized herself, and who all these neighbours of mine now know and love, yet refuse to recognize the cruel truth that many like her have been allowed to die when life would have been a better option.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS, I read the Guttmacher study linked by John. I didn’t really see anything wrong with it. Its main weakness is that it is based on self reporting rather than objective criteria, but logistically it is a reasonable methodology. Countries with national health systems can track economic factors more accurately because they count every individual so there is no selection bias, or reporting bias. They can track the characteristics directly from data from other agencies. States in the US can track MedicAid patients and compare them to those not on assistance to get an idea whether the poor are accessing abortion more than those are not without ever asking patients to self report. CDC does as well. I haven’t looked at those reports in a long time, but even the Guttmacher report doesn’t indicate that the women are disproportionally poor. Rather, they indicate that the women are not in healthy marriages. So, it is basically adultery that is the problem.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS, I read the Guttmacher study linked by John. I didn’t really see anything wrong with it. Its main weakness is that it is based on self reporting rather than objective criteria, but logistically it is a reasonable methodology. Countries with national health systems can track economic factors more accurately because they count every individual so there is no selection bias, or reporting bias. They can track the characteristics directly from data from other agencies. States in the US can track MedicAid patients and compare them to those not on assistance to get an idea whether the poor are accessing abortion more than those are not without ever asking patients to self report. CDC does as well. I haven’t looked at those reports in a long time, but even the Guttmacher report doesn’t indicate that the women are disproportionally poor. Rather, they indicate that the women are not in healthy marriages. So, it is basically adultery that is the problem.

  • collie

    John: Before we ask women why they choose abortion, maybe we should ask why they engaged in the behavior that resulted in pregnancy.

    It’s my opinion that a good father (one who spends time with, and mentors his daughters) is the best birth control, and that girls that feel loved and valued by their dads are less likely to put themselves at risk for an out-of-wedlock pregnancy.

  • collie

    John: Before we ask women why they choose abortion, maybe we should ask why they engaged in the behavior that resulted in pregnancy.

    It’s my opinion that a good father (one who spends time with, and mentors his daughters) is the best birth control, and that girls that feel loved and valued by their dads are less likely to put themselves at risk for an out-of-wedlock pregnancy.

  • collie

    John,
    The only ways I know how to prevent or reduce abortions is two ways: 1 – bring down the number of unintended preganancies. Methods to achieve this vary, I’ve just stated one. 2 – talk to anyone you know that is considering one, and point out the gift of life that is that baby. Help them to take care of the baby or place the baby within a loving home.

    I’m not sure where future legislation will go on this, but in any case, my suggestion re: involved dads certainly cannot hurt, can it?

    And I wasn’t trying to address every instance where abortion is sought. Just trying to speak to some of the possible causes.

  • collie

    John,
    The only ways I know how to prevent or reduce abortions is two ways: 1 – bring down the number of unintended preganancies. Methods to achieve this vary, I’ve just stated one. 2 – talk to anyone you know that is considering one, and point out the gift of life that is that baby. Help them to take care of the baby or place the baby within a loving home.

    I’m not sure where future legislation will go on this, but in any case, my suggestion re: involved dads certainly cannot hurt, can it?

    And I wasn’t trying to address every instance where abortion is sought. Just trying to speak to some of the possible causes.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “An unhealthy marriage need not always involve adultery.”

    True, but that is not the point. The point is most women having abortions are not married. Therefore, adultery is at least part of the problem in most cases.

    “Yet a woman in one may wonder – when she finds herself pregnant – if her husband will react badly or even if he’ll desert her. An early abortion may seem like the right choice to prevent a bad marriage from breaking altogether.”

    Yeah, if she is really craven and feels that someone else’s death is preferable to her own inconvenience.

    “To say such things is not to approve the choice, any more than to acknowledge that depression can lead to suicide.”

    According to studies based on the types of objective criteria I outlined in my comment, whole populations of a few countries demonstrate that women who have abortions have a suicide rate 4-6 times that of women who deliver.

    “But to prevent the suicide we need to understand the usual causes, to the extent we can.”

    Yes, and objective measures seem to indicate that having an abortion is a risk factor for suicide.

    ” To understand abortion, in order eventually to lower their frequency, we need to understand why women choose them.”

    We already know that.

    ” That starts with listening to the women themselves ”

    Not. Women are notoriously poor at self evaluation. Many psychological studies have investigated this phenomenon.

    “and then trying – as a society, a culture, a church, as individuals – to bring about change. ”

    Okay, let’s make abortion illegal and see if the incidence rate drops down to what it was when abortion was illegal before.

    “If the US pro life movement could separate itself from the economic ideologies of the political parties and do what’s best for, particularly, US women, things might just change.”

    f the US pro abortion movement could separate itself from the economic incentives of the democratic party and do what’s best for, particularly, US babies, things might just change.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “An unhealthy marriage need not always involve adultery.”

    True, but that is not the point. The point is most women having abortions are not married. Therefore, adultery is at least part of the problem in most cases.

    “Yet a woman in one may wonder – when she finds herself pregnant – if her husband will react badly or even if he’ll desert her. An early abortion may seem like the right choice to prevent a bad marriage from breaking altogether.”

    Yeah, if she is really craven and feels that someone else’s death is preferable to her own inconvenience.

    “To say such things is not to approve the choice, any more than to acknowledge that depression can lead to suicide.”

    According to studies based on the types of objective criteria I outlined in my comment, whole populations of a few countries demonstrate that women who have abortions have a suicide rate 4-6 times that of women who deliver.

    “But to prevent the suicide we need to understand the usual causes, to the extent we can.”

    Yes, and objective measures seem to indicate that having an abortion is a risk factor for suicide.

    ” To understand abortion, in order eventually to lower their frequency, we need to understand why women choose them.”

    We already know that.

    ” That starts with listening to the women themselves ”

    Not. Women are notoriously poor at self evaluation. Many psychological studies have investigated this phenomenon.

    “and then trying – as a society, a culture, a church, as individuals – to bring about change. ”

    Okay, let’s make abortion illegal and see if the incidence rate drops down to what it was when abortion was illegal before.

    “If the US pro life movement could separate itself from the economic ideologies of the political parties and do what’s best for, particularly, US women, things might just change.”

    f the US pro abortion movement could separate itself from the economic incentives of the democratic party and do what’s best for, particularly, US babies, things might just change.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s the enormity of having that life’ soon outside (and dependent on) them that causes great anxiety.”

    Most women have heard of adoption and know they can give the child up for adoption.

    As a woman I can tell you that when a woman is pregnant, people constantly ask her about her baby. Every time that happens, she has to deal emotionally with what surrounds the pregnancy. If she has been rejected in some way, either because the father doesn’t want the baby or her either or just doesn’t want to pay for the baby, she is constantly being reminded that the man who should be heading the family he has created has in some way rejected or abandoned her. The constant reinforcement of the fact that she was rejected is very insulting. It makes her feel worthless. Even if she lies or whatever, she still knows that instead of the guy loving her and being willing to move heaven and earth to take care of her and his family, he just considers her worthless. Since women generally are extremely dependent on approval for their self image, doing what others want, like killing the kid and getting a job is a way for them to escape from the situation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s the enormity of having that life’ soon outside (and dependent on) them that causes great anxiety.”

    Most women have heard of adoption and know they can give the child up for adoption.

    As a woman I can tell you that when a woman is pregnant, people constantly ask her about her baby. Every time that happens, she has to deal emotionally with what surrounds the pregnancy. If she has been rejected in some way, either because the father doesn’t want the baby or her either or just doesn’t want to pay for the baby, she is constantly being reminded that the man who should be heading the family he has created has in some way rejected or abandoned her. The constant reinforcement of the fact that she was rejected is very insulting. It makes her feel worthless. Even if she lies or whatever, she still knows that instead of the guy loving her and being willing to move heaven and earth to take care of her and his family, he just considers her worthless. Since women generally are extremely dependent on approval for their self image, doing what others want, like killing the kid and getting a job is a way for them to escape from the situation.

  • Grace

    Ryan – 14 wrote something that I find most interesting:

    “I was conceived in one of these ideal cases for abortion – out of wedlock, high school student (valedictorian no less – great career ahead if it wasn’t for the child), low income.”

    It wasn’t “ideal” — what Ryan’s natural mother had, above and far away from being “valedictorian” of her class was a moral standard, a compass that most likely had been instilled in her, (low income or not) either early on in her life, or perhaps she knew the LORD, and knew that abortion wasn’t the answer, or all of the above. Through this young girls choice, she did the honorable thing and continued her pregnancy to fruition, and delivered a son who now serves the LORD as a pastor.

    There is much to be learned by Ryan’s post. If Ryan feels comfortable, I would like to hear much more from this man, the pastor.

  • Grace

    Ryan – 14 wrote something that I find most interesting:

    “I was conceived in one of these ideal cases for abortion – out of wedlock, high school student (valedictorian no less – great career ahead if it wasn’t for the child), low income.”

    It wasn’t “ideal” — what Ryan’s natural mother had, above and far away from being “valedictorian” of her class was a moral standard, a compass that most likely had been instilled in her, (low income or not) either early on in her life, or perhaps she knew the LORD, and knew that abortion wasn’t the answer, or all of the above. Through this young girls choice, she did the honorable thing and continued her pregnancy to fruition, and delivered a son who now serves the LORD as a pastor.

    There is much to be learned by Ryan’s post. If Ryan feels comfortable, I would like to hear much more from this man, the pastor.


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