All things are yours

The Epistle reading for yesterday included a verse that I had never heard preached on or exposited, one that I had never attended to before, despite years of Bible reading:

For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. (1 Corinthians 3:21-23)

What do you make of that text? What does it mean and how should we apply it?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Stephen

    It means that the witness of the Book of Concord is not just for Lutherans, but all Christians. ;)

  • Stephen

    It means that the witness of the Book of Concord is not just for Lutherans, but all Christians. ;)

  • Dan Kempin

    Huh. I had that very same verse strike me yesterday during worship.

  • Dan Kempin

    Huh. I had that very same verse strike me yesterday during worship.

  • http://www.christlutheran.net Jeff Samelson

    It’s teaching a glorious Christian collectivism, whereby we get to lay claim to unbelievers’ goods and property … ;) (just kidding)

    In context, it’s a correction to (and not so subtle criticism of) the factionalism in the Corinthian congregation that Paul was dealing with: By identifying themselves with Paul or Apollos or Peter, to the exclusion of all other teachers, they were saying “I belong to Paul” (or Apollos or Peter). So Paul here was pointing out how silly and short-sighted that was, because they not only had things reversed, they also were separating themselves from God’s gifts.

    Paul, Apollos, and Peter were God’s gifts to the church, and as His and their servants those preachers and teachers belonged to them, not the other way around. And by limiting themselves to the service of just one, they were foolishly missing out on all the blessings God wanted to give them through the others. So Paul — the master builder who laid the foundation on which the others built — points all this out to them and then takes it a step further by telling them that (even though this is all hidden under the cross) God has placed all things in the world and life, even things yet to come, into their service also. (Cf. Rom. 8:28ff)

    This is true therefore for all believers in Christ. It is a correction for us when we get too hung up on things like personality conflicts and factions and traditions in the church that have nothing to do with Christ or His Word, and it is a comfort for us when it seems that everything and everyone is against us rather than for us (“No,” Paul tells us, “all things are yours!”).

    Lest we take these ideas too far, however, Paul offers the final reminder that while all things are subordinate to Christ’s church, the church itself (and its members) are still subordinate to Christ, and even Christ, in his humiliation, is subordinate to God. The humility that should come to us with this reminder then points us to the conclusion that we will not abuse, take improper advantage of, or disrespect the gifts and servants God has placed in our service, but will submit to them, mindful of Who has given them and why. This conclusion follows in the next verse, 1 Cor. 4:1 — “This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.”

  • http://www.christlutheran.net Jeff Samelson

    It’s teaching a glorious Christian collectivism, whereby we get to lay claim to unbelievers’ goods and property … ;) (just kidding)

    In context, it’s a correction to (and not so subtle criticism of) the factionalism in the Corinthian congregation that Paul was dealing with: By identifying themselves with Paul or Apollos or Peter, to the exclusion of all other teachers, they were saying “I belong to Paul” (or Apollos or Peter). So Paul here was pointing out how silly and short-sighted that was, because they not only had things reversed, they also were separating themselves from God’s gifts.

    Paul, Apollos, and Peter were God’s gifts to the church, and as His and their servants those preachers and teachers belonged to them, not the other way around. And by limiting themselves to the service of just one, they were foolishly missing out on all the blessings God wanted to give them through the others. So Paul — the master builder who laid the foundation on which the others built — points all this out to them and then takes it a step further by telling them that (even though this is all hidden under the cross) God has placed all things in the world and life, even things yet to come, into their service also. (Cf. Rom. 8:28ff)

    This is true therefore for all believers in Christ. It is a correction for us when we get too hung up on things like personality conflicts and factions and traditions in the church that have nothing to do with Christ or His Word, and it is a comfort for us when it seems that everything and everyone is against us rather than for us (“No,” Paul tells us, “all things are yours!”).

    Lest we take these ideas too far, however, Paul offers the final reminder that while all things are subordinate to Christ’s church, the church itself (and its members) are still subordinate to Christ, and even Christ, in his humiliation, is subordinate to God. The humility that should come to us with this reminder then points us to the conclusion that we will not abuse, take improper advantage of, or disrespect the gifts and servants God has placed in our service, but will submit to them, mindful of Who has given them and why. This conclusion follows in the next verse, 1 Cor. 4:1 — “This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.”

  • Helen F

    Since Paul is contrasting the wisdom of the world with God’s wisdom in Christ, it seems that what God has given is to be of much more value and infinitely more prrecious than anything that man can offer: forgiveness of sins, life and salvation.
    I thin that great Samuel Wesley hymn sums it up quite well:

    The Church’s One Foundation
    By Samuel J. Stone
    The Church’s one foundation
    Is Jesus Christ, her Lord;
    She is his new creation
    By water and the Word.
    From heaven he came and sought her
    To be his holy bride;
    With his own blood he bought her,
    And for her life he died.

    Elect from every nation,
    Yet one over all the earth;
    Her charter of salvation:
    One Lord, one faith, one birth.
    One holy name she blesses,
    Partakes one holy food,
    And to one hope she presses
    With every grace endued.

    Through toil and tribulation
    And tumult of her war
    Se waits the consummation
    Of peace forevermore
    Till with the vision glorious
    Her longing eyes are blest,
    And the great Church victorious
    Shall be the Church at rest.

    Yet she on earth has union
    With God, the Three in One,
    And mystic sweet communion
    With those whose rest is won.
    O blessed heavenly chorus!
    Lord, save us by your grace
    That we, like saints before us,
    May see you face to face.

    Hymn # 289 from Lutheran Worship
    Author: Samuel S. Wesley
    Tune: Aurelia
    1st Published in: 1866

  • Helen F

    Since Paul is contrasting the wisdom of the world with God’s wisdom in Christ, it seems that what God has given is to be of much more value and infinitely more prrecious than anything that man can offer: forgiveness of sins, life and salvation.
    I thin that great Samuel Wesley hymn sums it up quite well:

    The Church’s One Foundation
    By Samuel J. Stone
    The Church’s one foundation
    Is Jesus Christ, her Lord;
    She is his new creation
    By water and the Word.
    From heaven he came and sought her
    To be his holy bride;
    With his own blood he bought her,
    And for her life he died.

    Elect from every nation,
    Yet one over all the earth;
    Her charter of salvation:
    One Lord, one faith, one birth.
    One holy name she blesses,
    Partakes one holy food,
    And to one hope she presses
    With every grace endued.

    Through toil and tribulation
    And tumult of her war
    Se waits the consummation
    Of peace forevermore
    Till with the vision glorious
    Her longing eyes are blest,
    And the great Church victorious
    Shall be the Church at rest.

    Yet she on earth has union
    With God, the Three in One,
    And mystic sweet communion
    With those whose rest is won.
    O blessed heavenly chorus!
    Lord, save us by your grace
    That we, like saints before us,
    May see you face to face.

    Hymn # 289 from Lutheran Worship
    Author: Samuel S. Wesley
    Tune: Aurelia
    1st Published in: 1866

  • http://journeytoluther.blogspot.com/ moallen

    I think this verse is referring to our inheritance in Christ – we don’t need to go to God through anyone else, such as Apollos or Paul or Cephas, but only through Christ. So I should not boast in a man, but I am Christ’s by His grace and mercy. I have the full inheritance.

  • http://journeytoluther.blogspot.com/ moallen

    I think this verse is referring to our inheritance in Christ – we don’t need to go to God through anyone else, such as Apollos or Paul or Cephas, but only through Christ. So I should not boast in a man, but I am Christ’s by His grace and mercy. I have the full inheritance.

  • Helen F

    moallen,
    Exactly!

  • Helen F

    moallen,
    Exactly!

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Jeff has the right of the passage.

    moallen, in dealing with this passage one needs to pay attention to what came before as this is the conclusion of an argument by Paul. He is not saying we don’t need to go through anybody else. He is saying let nobody raise the servant above the master. The men whom the people were raising up, Paul reminds them they came pointing them to the cross of Christ, not themselves. The people of Corinth forgot that important distinction and started to elevate the teachers above their place. Paul is in fact saying these guys all belong to you for they point you to the cross and the one who redeemed you.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Jeff has the right of the passage.

    moallen, in dealing with this passage one needs to pay attention to what came before as this is the conclusion of an argument by Paul. He is not saying we don’t need to go through anybody else. He is saying let nobody raise the servant above the master. The men whom the people were raising up, Paul reminds them they came pointing them to the cross of Christ, not themselves. The people of Corinth forgot that important distinction and started to elevate the teachers above their place. Paul is in fact saying these guys all belong to you for they point you to the cross and the one who redeemed you.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    It means I can sit down and drink just a bit more than my fair share of a fine ale with a good conscience with any brother or group of brothers, like Cephas, Apollos, and Paul and really enjoy the conversation wherever it goes! Bottoms up, brothers!

  • Bryan Lindemood

    It means I can sit down and drink just a bit more than my fair share of a fine ale with a good conscience with any brother or group of brothers, like Cephas, Apollos, and Paul and really enjoy the conversation wherever it goes! Bottoms up, brothers!

  • Porcell

    This passage could be reasonably extended to vocation. As long as we are truly in Christ, then any of our vocations can be valid and rewarding.

  • Porcell

    This passage could be reasonably extended to vocation. As long as we are truly in Christ, then any of our vocations can be valid and rewarding.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Sounds like a perfect name-it-and-claim-it prooftext, as long as you can go, “Oh, look! A butterfly!” when someone wants confront you with context.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Sounds like a perfect name-it-and-claim-it prooftext, as long as you can go, “Oh, look! A butterfly!” when someone wants confront you with context.

  • Helen F

    Here is Chrysostom’s opinion on it:
    “Paul says, ‘So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,’ (1Co 3:21). He points out that they should not be full of pride, not even for their spiritual things, because they have nothing from themselves. ‘Since the wisdom from the world is hurtful, and the spiritual gifts were not given by you, what do you have in which to boast?’ And in regard to the wisdom from the world, ‘Let no one deceive himself’ (1Co 3:18), because they were conceited about a thing which in truth did more harm than good. But here, in so far as the thing spoken of was really beneficial, ‘Let no one boast’ (1Co 3:21) And he orders his speech more gently: ‘For all things are yours.’

    “‘For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future – all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s’ (1Co 3:21-22). Because he had sharply rebuked them, he encourages them again. And as above he had said, ‘We are God’s fellow workers;’ (1Co 3:9) and by many other expressions he soothed them. So here too he said, ‘All things are yours; taking down the pride of the teachers, and signifying that so far from bestowing any favor on them, the teachers ought to be grateful to them. Since for their sake they were made such as they were, yes, and moreover had received grace. But seeing that these were also sure to be boastful, he cuts out beforehand this disease too, saying, ‘As the Lord assigned to each,’ (1Co 3:5) and, ‘God gave the growth’ (1Co 3:7) so that the one party might not be puffed up as giver of the good and that the others, on their hearing a second time, ‘All things are yours,’ would not be puffed up. ‘For, indeed, though it was for your sakes, yet the whole was God’s doing.’

    “But what does Paul mean by ‘or death?’ He means that even though the teachers die, for your sakes they die, encountering dangers for your salvation. He again takes down the high spirit of the disciples, and raises the spirit of the teachers. In fact, he talks with the disciples as one would with children of high birth, who have tutors, but are heirs of all things. We may say also, in another sense, that both the death of Adam was for our sakes, that we might be corrected; and the death of Christ, that we might be saved.”
    John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 10.4

  • Helen F

    Here is Chrysostom’s opinion on it:
    “Paul says, ‘So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,’ (1Co 3:21). He points out that they should not be full of pride, not even for their spiritual things, because they have nothing from themselves. ‘Since the wisdom from the world is hurtful, and the spiritual gifts were not given by you, what do you have in which to boast?’ And in regard to the wisdom from the world, ‘Let no one deceive himself’ (1Co 3:18), because they were conceited about a thing which in truth did more harm than good. But here, in so far as the thing spoken of was really beneficial, ‘Let no one boast’ (1Co 3:21) And he orders his speech more gently: ‘For all things are yours.’

    “‘For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future – all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s’ (1Co 3:21-22). Because he had sharply rebuked them, he encourages them again. And as above he had said, ‘We are God’s fellow workers;’ (1Co 3:9) and by many other expressions he soothed them. So here too he said, ‘All things are yours; taking down the pride of the teachers, and signifying that so far from bestowing any favor on them, the teachers ought to be grateful to them. Since for their sake they were made such as they were, yes, and moreover had received grace. But seeing that these were also sure to be boastful, he cuts out beforehand this disease too, saying, ‘As the Lord assigned to each,’ (1Co 3:5) and, ‘God gave the growth’ (1Co 3:7) so that the one party might not be puffed up as giver of the good and that the others, on their hearing a second time, ‘All things are yours,’ would not be puffed up. ‘For, indeed, though it was for your sakes, yet the whole was God’s doing.’

    “But what does Paul mean by ‘or death?’ He means that even though the teachers die, for your sakes they die, encountering dangers for your salvation. He again takes down the high spirit of the disciples, and raises the spirit of the teachers. In fact, he talks with the disciples as one would with children of high birth, who have tutors, but are heirs of all things. We may say also, in another sense, that both the death of Adam was for our sakes, that we might be corrected; and the death of Christ, that we might be saved.”
    John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 10.4

  • Grace

    21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    Here the apostle founds an exhortation against over-valuing their teachers on what he had just said, and on the consideration that they had an equal interest in all their ministers: Therefore let no man glory in men (1 Corinthians 3:21)– forget that their ministers are men, or pay that deference to them that is due only to God, set them at the head of parties, have them in immoderate esteem and admiration, and servilely and implicitly follow their directions and submit to their dictates, and especially in contradiction to God and the truths taught by his Holy Spirit. Mankind are very apt to make the mercies of God cross their intentions. The ministry is a very useful and very gracious institution, and faithful ministers are a great blessing to any people; yet the folly and weakness of people may do much mischief by what is in itself a blessing. They may fall into factions, side with particular ministers, and set them at their head, glory in their leaders, and be carried by them they know not whither. The only way to avoid this mischief is to have a modest opinion of ourselves, a due sense of the common weakness of human understanding, and an entire deference to the wisdom of God speaking in his word. Ministers are not to be set up in competition with one another. All faithful ministers are serving one Lord and pursuing one purpose. They were appointed of Christ, for the common benefit of the church: “Paul, and Apollos, and Cephas, are all yours. One is not to be set up against another, but all are to be valued and used for your own spiritual benefit. ” Upon this occasion also he gives in an inventory of the church’s possessions, the spiritual riches of a true believer: “All is yours–ministers of all ranks, ordinary and extraordinary. Nay the world itself is yours.” Not that saints are proprietors of the world, but it stands for their sake, they have as much of it as Infinite Wisdom sees to be fit for them, and they have all they have with the divine blessing.

    “Life is yours, that you may have season and opportunity to prepare for the life of heaven; and death is yours, that you may go to the possession of it. It is the kind messenger that will fetch you to your Father’s house. Things present are yours, for your support on the road; things to come are yours, to enrich and regale you for ever at your journey’s end.” Note, If we belong to Christ, and are true to him, all good belongs to us, and is sure to us. All is ours, time and eternity, earth and heaven, life and death. We shall want no good thing, Psalms 84:11. But it must be remembered, at the same time, that we are Christ’s, the subjects of his kingdom, his property. He is Lord over us, and we must own his dominion, and cheerfully submit to his command and yield themselves to his pleasure, if we would have all things minister to our advantage. All things are ours, upon no other ground than our being Christ’s. Out of him we are without just title or claim to any thing that is good. Note, Those that would be safe for time, and happy to eternity, must be Christ’s. And Christ is God’s. He is the Christ of God, anointed of God, and commissioned by him, to bear the office of a Mediator, and to act therein for the purposes of his glory. Note, All things are the believer’s, that Christ might have honour in his great undertaking, and God in all might have the glory. God in Christ reconciling a sinful world to himself, and shedding abroad the riches of his grace on a reconciled world, is the sum and substance of the gospel. Matthew Henry

  • Grace

    21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    Here the apostle founds an exhortation against over-valuing their teachers on what he had just said, and on the consideration that they had an equal interest in all their ministers: Therefore let no man glory in men (1 Corinthians 3:21)– forget that their ministers are men, or pay that deference to them that is due only to God, set them at the head of parties, have them in immoderate esteem and admiration, and servilely and implicitly follow their directions and submit to their dictates, and especially in contradiction to God and the truths taught by his Holy Spirit. Mankind are very apt to make the mercies of God cross their intentions. The ministry is a very useful and very gracious institution, and faithful ministers are a great blessing to any people; yet the folly and weakness of people may do much mischief by what is in itself a blessing. They may fall into factions, side with particular ministers, and set them at their head, glory in their leaders, and be carried by them they know not whither. The only way to avoid this mischief is to have a modest opinion of ourselves, a due sense of the common weakness of human understanding, and an entire deference to the wisdom of God speaking in his word. Ministers are not to be set up in competition with one another. All faithful ministers are serving one Lord and pursuing one purpose. They were appointed of Christ, for the common benefit of the church: “Paul, and Apollos, and Cephas, are all yours. One is not to be set up against another, but all are to be valued and used for your own spiritual benefit. ” Upon this occasion also he gives in an inventory of the church’s possessions, the spiritual riches of a true believer: “All is yours–ministers of all ranks, ordinary and extraordinary. Nay the world itself is yours.” Not that saints are proprietors of the world, but it stands for their sake, they have as much of it as Infinite Wisdom sees to be fit for them, and they have all they have with the divine blessing.

    “Life is yours, that you may have season and opportunity to prepare for the life of heaven; and death is yours, that you may go to the possession of it. It is the kind messenger that will fetch you to your Father’s house. Things present are yours, for your support on the road; things to come are yours, to enrich and regale you for ever at your journey’s end.” Note, If we belong to Christ, and are true to him, all good belongs to us, and is sure to us. All is ours, time and eternity, earth and heaven, life and death. We shall want no good thing, Psalms 84:11. But it must be remembered, at the same time, that we are Christ’s, the subjects of his kingdom, his property. He is Lord over us, and we must own his dominion, and cheerfully submit to his command and yield themselves to his pleasure, if we would have all things minister to our advantage. All things are ours, upon no other ground than our being Christ’s. Out of him we are without just title or claim to any thing that is good. Note, Those that would be safe for time, and happy to eternity, must be Christ’s. And Christ is God’s. He is the Christ of God, anointed of God, and commissioned by him, to bear the office of a Mediator, and to act therein for the purposes of his glory. Note, All things are the believer’s, that Christ might have honour in his great undertaking, and God in all might have the glory. God in Christ reconciling a sinful world to himself, and shedding abroad the riches of his grace on a reconciled world, is the sum and substance of the gospel. Matthew Henry

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith, you left out the first part of verse 3:21 – below are 10 translations of 1 Corinthians 3:21 in FULL. Why did you leave out the first part, it’s a very important passage?

    New International Version
    So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours,

    English Standard Version
    So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,

    New American Standard Bible
    So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,

    International Standard Version
    So let no one boast about human beings, since everything belongs to you,

    King James Bible
    Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

    American King James Version
    Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your’s;

    American Standard Version
    Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours;

    Darby Bible Translation
    So that let no one boast in men; for all things are yours.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    Therefore let no man glory in men: for all things are yours:

    Weymouth New Testament
    Therefore let no one boast about his human teachers.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith, you left out the first part of verse 3:21 – below are 10 translations of 1 Corinthians 3:21 in FULL. Why did you leave out the first part, it’s a very important passage?

    New International Version
    So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours,

    English Standard Version
    So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours,

    New American Standard Bible
    So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,

    International Standard Version
    So let no one boast about human beings, since everything belongs to you,

    King James Bible
    Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

    American King James Version
    Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your’s;

    American Standard Version
    Wherefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours;

    Darby Bible Translation
    So that let no one boast in men; for all things are yours.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    Therefore let no man glory in men: for all things are yours:

    Weymouth New Testament
    Therefore let no one boast about his human teachers.

  • Dan Kempin

    Helen F, #11

    ” . . .he talks with the disciples as one would with children of high birth, who have tutors, but are heirs of all things.”

    Good quote, Helen.

  • Dan Kempin

    Helen F, #11

    ” . . .he talks with the disciples as one would with children of high birth, who have tutors, but are heirs of all things.”

    Good quote, Helen.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @13

    I suspect it is because Veith was interested in the phrase “all things are yours.” The title of the post gives that away. Plus, I suspect he assumed his posters would be smart enough to employ the first three rules of biblical interpretation: context, context, context. He may also figured those who violated those rules would be corrected in a brotherly manner.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @13

    I suspect it is because Veith was interested in the phrase “all things are yours.” The title of the post gives that away. Plus, I suspect he assumed his posters would be smart enough to employ the first three rules of biblical interpretation: context, context, context. He may also figured those who violated those rules would be corrected in a brotherly manner.

  • Grace

    Dr. Luther in the 21st Century – 15

    The point being; without stating the verse in totality, one misses the essence of its meaning –

    “Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;” verse 21

    Taking the entire verse within context, would be to add verses 19 and 20 to get the full flavor.

    19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    Very rarely do I see a verse where it is cut in half, leaving the first or second half OUT, especially when it’s the real meat, explaining the reason for it being brought forward in the first place.

    The point being – the passage is speaking of taking “glory in men” which too many Christians do. That is what

  • Grace

    Dr. Luther in the 21st Century – 15

    The point being; without stating the verse in totality, one misses the essence of its meaning –

    “Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;” verse 21

    Taking the entire verse within context, would be to add verses 19 and 20 to get the full flavor.

    19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    Very rarely do I see a verse where it is cut in half, leaving the first or second half OUT, especially when it’s the real meat, explaining the reason for it being brought forward in the first place.

    The point being – the passage is speaking of taking “glory in men” which too many Christians do. That is what

  • James Hescock

    I think it means exactly what it sounds like, Dr. Veith. It’s a glorious promise. All things are ours: cancer, disease, job loss, toothaches, and anything else in all of life. They’re ours! Nothing shall stand in our way towards becoming more and more like Jesus Christ in his character and image. Evenmore so, rather than holding us back and threatening our chance at our inheritence, they are the very means by which God propels us forward. We are “more than conquerers”. We don’t just conquer our enemies, we make them serve our ends. Likewise, all things work together for the good of God’s elect, for he’s predestined us to be conformed into the image of his Son.

    Therefore, we don’t need other people’s stuff of significance (Paul’s, Apollos’, Peter’s). All things are ours, we are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. Thanks be to God who gives us the victory.

    So many fear that this is too good to be true, afraid of being like this camp or that clan – but it’s the *truth*. Believe it, or not. I say, believe it! Let them say what they may. It is the one whom the Lord commends who is approved. Sounds too good to be true. Don’t go the way of Thomas. This is yours! Believe it!

  • James Hescock

    I think it means exactly what it sounds like, Dr. Veith. It’s a glorious promise. All things are ours: cancer, disease, job loss, toothaches, and anything else in all of life. They’re ours! Nothing shall stand in our way towards becoming more and more like Jesus Christ in his character and image. Evenmore so, rather than holding us back and threatening our chance at our inheritence, they are the very means by which God propels us forward. We are “more than conquerers”. We don’t just conquer our enemies, we make them serve our ends. Likewise, all things work together for the good of God’s elect, for he’s predestined us to be conformed into the image of his Son.

    Therefore, we don’t need other people’s stuff of significance (Paul’s, Apollos’, Peter’s). All things are ours, we are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. Thanks be to God who gives us the victory.

    So many fear that this is too good to be true, afraid of being like this camp or that clan – but it’s the *truth*. Believe it, or not. I say, believe it! Let them say what they may. It is the one whom the Lord commends who is approved. Sounds too good to be true. Don’t go the way of Thomas. This is yours! Believe it!

  • James Hescock

    @Grace — You’ve totally missed it. WHY? Why shouldn’t we take glory in men? THAT’S what the quoted text supplying. True, don’t take glory in men. True, we do a lot of that. But WHY shouldn’t I take glory in men?

    What’s supplied to keep me from this is: all things are yours. “You don’t NEED their stuff – this guy’s or that man’s glory. All things (whatever special thing you think they’ve got that you don’t) are yours.” Everything – status, wisdom, wealth, power – all these things we have in Christ. Think about it. We will be AWESOME people in the New Heavens and Earth. Status, wisdom, wealth, power: you’ll have ALL of that in that day – only, you’ll be righteous. Meanwhile, everything (and I mean everything) is working in you towards you receiving this great inheritance, towards you becoming who you are b/c of Christ. That’s why all things are yours. What you want in these men (Apollos, Peter, etc) is something of that mix. But you already have that stuff. No, you already ARE the type of person you would hope to be by following these guys. Significant, accepted, valuable, gaining a great future b/c of who you know – you already are this. Therefore, everything – EVERYTHING – in life works in you to confirm this. All things work together for good for those who love him. What’s that good: being conformed to the image of his Son – that significant, valuable person of Jesus Christ. That’s the reason WHY we shouldn’t glory in men: they’re chumps compared to the galaxies of riches we have in Christ and being conformed to his person. And that’s what the text means. To focus on “the glory of men” is like showing up to a baseball stadium when there’s no game or players. You’re only halfway there. It’s just half the purpose it all being there.

  • James Hescock

    @Grace — You’ve totally missed it. WHY? Why shouldn’t we take glory in men? THAT’S what the quoted text supplying. True, don’t take glory in men. True, we do a lot of that. But WHY shouldn’t I take glory in men?

    What’s supplied to keep me from this is: all things are yours. “You don’t NEED their stuff – this guy’s or that man’s glory. All things (whatever special thing you think they’ve got that you don’t) are yours.” Everything – status, wisdom, wealth, power – all these things we have in Christ. Think about it. We will be AWESOME people in the New Heavens and Earth. Status, wisdom, wealth, power: you’ll have ALL of that in that day – only, you’ll be righteous. Meanwhile, everything (and I mean everything) is working in you towards you receiving this great inheritance, towards you becoming who you are b/c of Christ. That’s why all things are yours. What you want in these men (Apollos, Peter, etc) is something of that mix. But you already have that stuff. No, you already ARE the type of person you would hope to be by following these guys. Significant, accepted, valuable, gaining a great future b/c of who you know – you already are this. Therefore, everything – EVERYTHING – in life works in you to confirm this. All things work together for good for those who love him. What’s that good: being conformed to the image of his Son – that significant, valuable person of Jesus Christ. That’s the reason WHY we shouldn’t glory in men: they’re chumps compared to the galaxies of riches we have in Christ and being conformed to his person. And that’s what the text means. To focus on “the glory of men” is like showing up to a baseball stadium when there’s no game or players. You’re only halfway there. It’s just half the purpose it all being there.

  • James Hescock

    All things are ours b/c it is actually the means by which God delivers to us our inheritance (though now, not in full – but plump!). Cancer will strengthen you. Alzheimer’s will prepare you. Loss of a loved one will bring it to you. All things – even the good – unite in this purpose of working you towards receiving here, now. though first fruits, what you victorious inheritance you already have.

  • James Hescock

    All things are ours b/c it is actually the means by which God delivers to us our inheritance (though now, not in full – but plump!). Cancer will strengthen you. Alzheimer’s will prepare you. Loss of a loved one will bring it to you. All things – even the good – unite in this purpose of working you towards receiving here, now. though first fruits, what you victorious inheritance you already have.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Good grief, Grace (@16), you are aware of the near-total arbitrariness of Bible-verse numbering, aren’t you? There is nothing magical about starting one’s quote at the beginning of a verse.

    Anyhow, it’s plain that starting from the beginning of verse 21 still fails to give enough context, as it begins “Therefore”, which necessarily points us back to what was written before.

    Given your obsession with Luther that you have made all-too-clear on this blog, it isn’t hard to guess why you’re so upset that someone would not include all of verse 21, is it? You think Lutherans are intentionally hiding something, don’t you?

    But then, you routinely fail to understand how Lutherans look at Luther. We listen to Luther because he, too, points us to Christ, not to Luther. You’re the one constantly pointing us to Luther.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Good grief, Grace (@16), you are aware of the near-total arbitrariness of Bible-verse numbering, aren’t you? There is nothing magical about starting one’s quote at the beginning of a verse.

    Anyhow, it’s plain that starting from the beginning of verse 21 still fails to give enough context, as it begins “Therefore”, which necessarily points us back to what was written before.

    Given your obsession with Luther that you have made all-too-clear on this blog, it isn’t hard to guess why you’re so upset that someone would not include all of verse 21, is it? You think Lutherans are intentionally hiding something, don’t you?

    But then, you routinely fail to understand how Lutherans look at Luther. We listen to Luther because he, too, points us to Christ, not to Luther. You’re the one constantly pointing us to Luther.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Well I was going to comment but tODD beat me to it.

    Grace, as to what is quoted, anybody following the three rules of interpretation would have read the words preceding and following the quoted words, so I really fail to see the problem you seem to think exists.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Well I was going to comment but tODD beat me to it.

    Grace, as to what is quoted, anybody following the three rules of interpretation would have read the words preceding and following the quoted words, so I really fail to see the problem you seem to think exists.

  • Grace

    tOdd – 20

    No one mentioned Luther, you are the who is obsessed, and finds it needful to plunge in where there is no water.

    The verse was not fully posted in the first post, which gave the entire passage the point which you missed, and now develop into a Luther MOMENT.

    _____________________

    Dr. Luther in the 21st Century – 21

    I didn’t expect you to understand why the ENTIRE verse needs to be posted, the ENTIRE passage verses 18 to 23 hinge on verse 21.

  • Grace

    tOdd – 20

    No one mentioned Luther, you are the who is obsessed, and finds it needful to plunge in where there is no water.

    The verse was not fully posted in the first post, which gave the entire passage the point which you missed, and now develop into a Luther MOMENT.

    _____________________

    Dr. Luther in the 21st Century – 21

    I didn’t expect you to understand why the ENTIRE verse needs to be posted, the ENTIRE passage verses 18 to 23 hinge on verse 21.

  • Grace

    Post 22 should read:

    “I didn’t expect you to understand why the ENTIRE verse needs to be posted, the ENTIRE passage verses 18 to 23 hinge on verse 21, not half, but the entire verse.

  • Grace

    Post 22 should read:

    “I didn’t expect you to understand why the ENTIRE verse needs to be posted, the ENTIRE passage verses 18 to 23 hinge on verse 21, not half, but the entire verse.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    To quote Chris Tucker “Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?”

    Context, Context, Context – Do you know what the word “context” means? Those of us who understand Biblical interpretation didn’t need the whole thing quoted because we probably all opened our bible or favorite bible software and read the surrounding passages before answering including the words you are hung up over.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    To quote Chris Tucker “Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?”

    Context, Context, Context – Do you know what the word “context” means? Those of us who understand Biblical interpretation didn’t need the whole thing quoted because we probably all opened our bible or favorite bible software and read the surrounding passages before answering including the words you are hung up over.

  • Grace

    24 Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    “Those of us who understand Biblical interpretation didn’t need the whole thing quoted because we probably all opened our bible or favorite bible software and read the surrounding passages before answering including the words you are hung up over.”

    If you didn’t need verse 21 quoted in FULL, …. but then I did quote it, plus two verses, this shouldn’t upset you – but it does, and it shows…..

    19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
    1 Corinthians 3

    Men, ……….. glory in men, if it were not so, there would have been no reason for Paul to have been so blunt, in making a point of it, which he did in verse 21 –

    The problem is; people; men and women glory in others, meaning men, rather than Jesus Christ – that’s the point Paul is making no matter how annoyed you are.

  • Grace

    24 Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    “Those of us who understand Biblical interpretation didn’t need the whole thing quoted because we probably all opened our bible or favorite bible software and read the surrounding passages before answering including the words you are hung up over.”

    If you didn’t need verse 21 quoted in FULL, …. but then I did quote it, plus two verses, this shouldn’t upset you – but it does, and it shows…..

    19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
    1 Corinthians 3

    Men, ……….. glory in men, if it were not so, there would have been no reason for Paul to have been so blunt, in making a point of it, which he did in verse 21 –

    The problem is; people; men and women glory in others, meaning men, rather than Jesus Christ – that’s the point Paul is making no matter how annoyed you are.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Do you understand the word context? Could you please actually answer a question for once in your life.

    My issue isn’t with you quoting the verse but the implied sadistic glee you have conveyed, if not actually out right saying it, in that Veith made a fatal mistake in not quoting the whole verse. The way you responded was as if you felt he committed some mortal sin by leaving out part of the verse. That is what I took issue with.

    Now in reference to your point that the whole things hinges on verse 21. Well not really, as 21 through 23 are the conclusion of a point that started well before this point. So to say it all hinges on verse 21 is not correct. The point is that the work of all the men (Paul, Cephas, and Apollos) in that they pointed to Christ belongs to us because they are pointing to the one to whom we belong.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Do you understand the word context? Could you please actually answer a question for once in your life.

    My issue isn’t with you quoting the verse but the implied sadistic glee you have conveyed, if not actually out right saying it, in that Veith made a fatal mistake in not quoting the whole verse. The way you responded was as if you felt he committed some mortal sin by leaving out part of the verse. That is what I took issue with.

    Now in reference to your point that the whole things hinges on verse 21. Well not really, as 21 through 23 are the conclusion of a point that started well before this point. So to say it all hinges on verse 21 is not correct. The point is that the work of all the men (Paul, Cephas, and Apollos) in that they pointed to Christ belongs to us because they are pointing to the one to whom we belong.

  • Grace

    26 – Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    “My issue isn’t with you quoting the verse but the implied sadistic glee you have conveyed, if not actually out right saying it, in that Veith made a fatal mistake in not quoting the whole verse. The way you responded was as if you felt he committed some mortal sin by leaving out part of the verse. That is what I took issue with.”

    You’re wasting your time on the conspiracy idea of who did what to whom, because they had glee in mind, and someone else made a fatal mistake, and we need to fix it before we plunge in again, where water doesn’t exist. “Mortal sin” – - “sadistic” ? – very melodramatic, if not insufferable as you twinge the words to make sense where there is none.

    “Now in reference to your point that the whole things hinges on verse 21. Well not really, as 21 through 23 are the conclusion of a point that started well before this point. So to say it all hinges on verse 21 is not correct.”

    Au contraire, but it does – that is OBVIOUS, that’s why you’re all flipped out over the passage, posted out.

  • Grace

    26 – Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    “My issue isn’t with you quoting the verse but the implied sadistic glee you have conveyed, if not actually out right saying it, in that Veith made a fatal mistake in not quoting the whole verse. The way you responded was as if you felt he committed some mortal sin by leaving out part of the verse. That is what I took issue with.”

    You’re wasting your time on the conspiracy idea of who did what to whom, because they had glee in mind, and someone else made a fatal mistake, and we need to fix it before we plunge in again, where water doesn’t exist. “Mortal sin” – - “sadistic” ? – very melodramatic, if not insufferable as you twinge the words to make sense where there is none.

    “Now in reference to your point that the whole things hinges on verse 21. Well not really, as 21 through 23 are the conclusion of a point that started well before this point. So to say it all hinges on verse 21 is not correct.”

    Au contraire, but it does – that is OBVIOUS, that’s why you’re all flipped out over the passage, posted out.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    I do feel that I am typing to the ether.

    You’re wasting your time on the conspiracy idea of who did what to whom, because they had glee in mind, and someone else made a fatal mistake, and we need to fix it before we plunge in again, where water doesn’t exist. “Mortal sin” – – “sadistic” ? – very melodramatic, if not insufferable as you twinge the words to make sense where there is none.

    I’m not going to point out the hypocrisy, I really am not going to do. Ok, yes I am.

    Do you understand the word “context”? Could you please actually answer a question for once in your life.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    I do feel that I am typing to the ether.

    You’re wasting your time on the conspiracy idea of who did what to whom, because they had glee in mind, and someone else made a fatal mistake, and we need to fix it before we plunge in again, where water doesn’t exist. “Mortal sin” – – “sadistic” ? – very melodramatic, if not insufferable as you twinge the words to make sense where there is none.

    I’m not going to point out the hypocrisy, I really am not going to do. Ok, yes I am.

    Do you understand the word “context”? Could you please actually answer a question for once in your life.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Argghh, html fail

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Argghh, html fail

  • Grace

    28 and 29 — Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    It isn’t your “html” – it’s your insatiable appetite to fixate on the definition of “context” – certainly you can find something else to quibble about, which are not irrelevant objections –

    It’s late Mr. Century, why not down your ale and call it a night. I can help you in the morning, my husband awaits my presence elsewhere.

  • Grace

    28 and 29 — Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    It isn’t your “html” – it’s your insatiable appetite to fixate on the definition of “context” – certainly you can find something else to quibble about, which are not irrelevant objections –

    It’s late Mr. Century, why not down your ale and call it a night. I can help you in the morning, my husband awaits my presence elsewhere.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@22) said, “No one mentioned Luther”, but of course, you, Grace, have made quite the name for yourself on this blog doing just that — and, of course, not just mentioning him, but trying to tear him down at every possibility.

    For you to now complain that no one had brought Luther into the discussion seems more than a bit disingenuous, don’t you think? Bringing up Luther (and his opinions on the Jews) in irrelevant discussions is more or less your M.O. no? You can call me “obsessed” all you want, but I believe Google will bear out which of us cannot stop talking about Luther and the Jews on this blog, no matter the topic. What’s wrong? Are you suddenly not wanting to discuss your pet issue?

    If that, by some miracle, wasn’t where you were going by emphasizing that no one should boast in men, then do tell, what was your point in emphasizing that — remember, it shouldn’t be applicable to Lutherans and how you think they view Luther. After all, you did write an entire comment chiding Dr. Veith for not quoting the whole verse.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@22) said, “No one mentioned Luther”, but of course, you, Grace, have made quite the name for yourself on this blog doing just that — and, of course, not just mentioning him, but trying to tear him down at every possibility.

    For you to now complain that no one had brought Luther into the discussion seems more than a bit disingenuous, don’t you think? Bringing up Luther (and his opinions on the Jews) in irrelevant discussions is more or less your M.O. no? You can call me “obsessed” all you want, but I believe Google will bear out which of us cannot stop talking about Luther and the Jews on this blog, no matter the topic. What’s wrong? Are you suddenly not wanting to discuss your pet issue?

    If that, by some miracle, wasn’t where you were going by emphasizing that no one should boast in men, then do tell, what was your point in emphasizing that — remember, it shouldn’t be applicable to Lutherans and how you think they view Luther. After all, you did write an entire comment chiding Dr. Veith for not quoting the whole verse.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Do you understand the word context? Could you please actually answer a question for once in your life.

    Until you answer this question, I see no point continuing.

    I have to admit, I don’t think you actually know what “context” means, because if you did you would have never assumed I was upset over you posting the whole verse. If you wish for me to continue thinking you are ignorant, by all means, continue to avoid my question.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Do you understand the word context? Could you please actually answer a question for once in your life.

    Until you answer this question, I see no point continuing.

    I have to admit, I don’t think you actually know what “context” means, because if you did you would have never assumed I was upset over you posting the whole verse. If you wish for me to continue thinking you are ignorant, by all means, continue to avoid my question.

  • Grace

    Century Post 32

    “I have to admit, I don’t think you actually know what “context” means, because if you did you would have never assumed I was upset over you posting the whole verse. If you wish for me to continue thinking you are ignorant, by all means, continue to avoid my question.”

    Pay attention this time, I have answered you in the past.

    Context is defined as – text surrounding word or passage: the words, phrases, or passages that come before and after a particular word or passage in a speech or piece of writing and help to explain its full meaning. Taking the passage in 1 Corinthians, (the issue being verse 21, using the entire verse not just the last half) is a stumbling block for you, – taking verses 19 through 23 unfold, – - then being able to grasp the meaning. Verse 21 is critical as Paul is giving reason for his statement – it’s right in the middle, it is a textbook definition of “context” –

    Read post #16 again, for an explanation. Below is the passage in question:

    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s. 1 Corinthians 3

    Leaving out the first half of verse 21, and then using only the last part and verses 22 and 23 leave you with:

    21 _______________. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    The entire passage is then stunted, (as you can see above) it doesn’t have the meaning which Paul was imparting. The point being – the passage is speaking of taking “glory in men” which too many Christians do. The entire passage, verses 18 to 23 hinge on verse 21. Verse 21 in its entirety follows verses 19 and 20, the proof is in the word “Therefore” which follows verse 20.

  • Grace

    Century Post 32

    “I have to admit, I don’t think you actually know what “context” means, because if you did you would have never assumed I was upset over you posting the whole verse. If you wish for me to continue thinking you are ignorant, by all means, continue to avoid my question.”

    Pay attention this time, I have answered you in the past.

    Context is defined as – text surrounding word or passage: the words, phrases, or passages that come before and after a particular word or passage in a speech or piece of writing and help to explain its full meaning. Taking the passage in 1 Corinthians, (the issue being verse 21, using the entire verse not just the last half) is a stumbling block for you, – taking verses 19 through 23 unfold, – - then being able to grasp the meaning. Verse 21 is critical as Paul is giving reason for his statement – it’s right in the middle, it is a textbook definition of “context” –

    Read post #16 again, for an explanation. Below is the passage in question:

    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s. 1 Corinthians 3

    Leaving out the first half of verse 21, and then using only the last part and verses 22 and 23 leave you with:

    21 _______________. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

    The entire passage is then stunted, (as you can see above) it doesn’t have the meaning which Paul was imparting. The point being – the passage is speaking of taking “glory in men” which too many Christians do. The entire passage, verses 18 to 23 hinge on verse 21. Verse 21 in its entirety follows verses 19 and 20, the proof is in the word “Therefore” which follows verse 20.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @33
    Thank you for finally answering my question.

    Taking the verse in context, I would not and did not ignore the phrase prior to beginning of quoted text. Don’t know why you think this part is a stumbling block, as I do not hold anybody but Christ at the level of Christ, outside of you wanting to only engage your straw man. BTW the passage the selected verses come from is actually much larger than what you are claiming. The case that is being made actually begins in 1:10, at best the verses originating the discussion are a summary conclusion of the preceding verses starting at 1:10 not the hinge point as you make them to be.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @33
    Thank you for finally answering my question.

    Taking the verse in context, I would not and did not ignore the phrase prior to beginning of quoted text. Don’t know why you think this part is a stumbling block, as I do not hold anybody but Christ at the level of Christ, outside of you wanting to only engage your straw man. BTW the passage the selected verses come from is actually much larger than what you are claiming. The case that is being made actually begins in 1:10, at best the verses originating the discussion are a summary conclusion of the preceding verses starting at 1:10 not the hinge point as you make them to be.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace, why are you only starting your discussion at verse 18? Why did you leave out the first part of that chapter? It’s a very important passage! The point being, without stating the chapter in totality, one misses the essence of its meaning. Very rarely do I see a chapter where it is cut in half, leaving the first or second half out, especially when it’s the real meat explaining the reason for it being brought forward in the first place.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace, why are you only starting your discussion at verse 18? Why did you leave out the first part of that chapter? It’s a very important passage! The point being, without stating the chapter in totality, one misses the essence of its meaning. Very rarely do I see a chapter where it is cut in half, leaving the first or second half out, especially when it’s the real meat explaining the reason for it being brought forward in the first place.

  • Grace

    Century – 34 – “Thank you for finally answering my question.”

    I answered your question earlier, giving details, just as I have this morning as to context.

    Going back to verse 10, which you referrenced:

    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    It would then accomplish nothing to use the passage in verse 21, leaving out the first half – your point makes my point even stronger. See how this looks, just exclude “Therefore let no man glory in men”

    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21 _______________. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
    1 Corinthians 3

    There is no “straw man” –

    Paul was making the point using himself Apollos and Cephas, after encompassing everyone in verse 21 “Therefore let no man glory in men” – that would mean all men, any men – it’s all about Christ being the center, the beginning and forever,…. all GLORY given to Him, the one who paid for our sins on the Cross!

  • Grace

    Century – 34 – “Thank you for finally answering my question.”

    I answered your question earlier, giving details, just as I have this morning as to context.

    Going back to verse 10, which you referrenced:

    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    It would then accomplish nothing to use the passage in verse 21, leaving out the first half – your point makes my point even stronger. See how this looks, just exclude “Therefore let no man glory in men”

    19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
    21 _______________. For all things are yours;
    22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
    1 Corinthians 3

    There is no “straw man” –

    Paul was making the point using himself Apollos and Cephas, after encompassing everyone in verse 21 “Therefore let no man glory in men” – that would mean all men, any men – it’s all about Christ being the center, the beginning and forever,…. all GLORY given to Him, the one who paid for our sins on the Cross!

  • Grace

    tODD – 35 “Grace, why are you only starting your discussion at verse 18? Why did you leave out the first part of that chapter? ”

    Taking my posts, reworking them like a child in grade school, doesn’t serve you well. You’re not an original, it’s a copy cat – Poor you!

    Ask Dr. Veith. He only used three verses and left the first half of the most important out of his post.

  • Grace

    tODD – 35 “Grace, why are you only starting your discussion at verse 18? Why did you leave out the first part of that chapter? ”

    Taking my posts, reworking them like a child in grade school, doesn’t serve you well. You’re not an original, it’s a copy cat – Poor you!

    Ask Dr. Veith. He only used three verses and left the first half of the most important out of his post.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@37), “Ask Dr. Veith. He only used three verses and left the first half of the most important out of his post.”

    Gosh, do you think we should excommunicate him?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@37), “Ask Dr. Veith. He only used three verses and left the first half of the most important out of his post.”

    Gosh, do you think we should excommunicate him?

  • Grace

    Gosh, Gosh – and more Goshes – I don’t think so!

  • Grace

    Gosh, Gosh – and more Goshes – I don’t think so!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    But Grace (@39), aren’t you concerned that Dr. Veith may be glorying in man, and not in Christ — and, what’s more, that he’s deliberately trying to hide it? Through his deliberate omission of part of a verse, isn’t he clearly indicating his denial of his Savior? What possible reason could you give for not excommunicating him right now?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    But Grace (@39), aren’t you concerned that Dr. Veith may be glorying in man, and not in Christ — and, what’s more, that he’s deliberately trying to hide it? Through his deliberate omission of part of a verse, isn’t he clearly indicating his denial of his Savior? What possible reason could you give for not excommunicating him right now?

  • trotk

    tODD, why are you starting at the beginning of chapter 3? Don’t you know that you are taking this out of context? This discussion begins in verse 10 of chapter 1! I mean, come on. Context!

    And please don’t stop at the end of chapter 3! Paul’s line of reasoning clearly doesn’t, as he continues to exhort the Corinthians about how they should view other men. Amazingly, he tells them to view him as a steward of the mystery of Christ! In other words (Grace), inasmuch as someone preaches the Gospel, we get to view them as God’s stewards! Wow! Does that apply to Luther?

    Grace, seriously, this discussion wasn’t about how we view men. Veith wanted to hear the thoughts on a very particular phrase. What does it mean that all things are ours? Obviously the phrase is in context, but he wasn’t asking for an exposition of I Cor. He just wanted to know what one phrase meant.

    And Grace, take the time to research the versification of the Bible. It occurred a couple years after Paul died. Also, your posting of multiple translations (and versions) doesn’t help. I will only accept five quoted sources: the Greek NT (or the Hebrew of the OT), the Septuagint, the Vulgate, Wycliffe’s, and Luther’s. Oh, I will also take the Message.

  • trotk

    tODD, why are you starting at the beginning of chapter 3? Don’t you know that you are taking this out of context? This discussion begins in verse 10 of chapter 1! I mean, come on. Context!

    And please don’t stop at the end of chapter 3! Paul’s line of reasoning clearly doesn’t, as he continues to exhort the Corinthians about how they should view other men. Amazingly, he tells them to view him as a steward of the mystery of Christ! In other words (Grace), inasmuch as someone preaches the Gospel, we get to view them as God’s stewards! Wow! Does that apply to Luther?

    Grace, seriously, this discussion wasn’t about how we view men. Veith wanted to hear the thoughts on a very particular phrase. What does it mean that all things are ours? Obviously the phrase is in context, but he wasn’t asking for an exposition of I Cor. He just wanted to know what one phrase meant.

    And Grace, take the time to research the versification of the Bible. It occurred a couple years after Paul died. Also, your posting of multiple translations (and versions) doesn’t help. I will only accept five quoted sources: the Greek NT (or the Hebrew of the OT), the Septuagint, the Vulgate, Wycliffe’s, and Luther’s. Oh, I will also take the Message.

  • Grace

    23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    2 Timothy 2

    This isn’t always easy to accomplish, but one must try.

  • Grace

    23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    2 Timothy 2

    This isn’t always easy to accomplish, but one must try.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    “It occurred a couple years after Paul died.”

    “Oh, I will also take the Message.”

    Trotk! Don’t make me spit my drink on my screen!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    “It occurred a couple years after Paul died.”

    “Oh, I will also take the Message.”

    Trotk! Don’t make me spit my drink on my screen!

  • trotk

    Grace, “but” is a conjunction! That means you’ve only got half the thought! What comes before your quoted passage?

  • trotk

    Grace, “but” is a conjunction! That means you’ve only got half the thought! What comes before your quoted passage?

  • trotk

    tODD, lacking emoticons, I must make my sarcasm shine like the noonday sun lest I appear too silly.

  • trotk

    tODD, lacking emoticons, I must make my sarcasm shine like the noonday sun lest I appear too silly.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    All right, seeing as this conversation’s already derailed and then some, let’s do this, Trotk (@45).

    :) → :)
    :P → :P
    :D → :D
    ;) → ;)

    Full WordPress-approved list.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    All right, seeing as this conversation’s already derailed and then some, let’s do this, Trotk (@45).

    :) → :)
    :P → :P
    :D → :D
    ;) → ;)

    Full WordPress-approved list.

  • trotk

    :)

  • trotk

    :)

  • trotk

    :P

  • trotk

    :P

  • trotk

    This is fun ;)

  • trotk

    This is fun ;)

  • trotk

    I think the message should be reprinted with emoticons in it :D

  • trotk

    I think the message should be reprinted with emoticons in it :D

  • trotk

    Thanks, tODD :lol:

  • trotk

    Thanks, tODD :lol:

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Dear me, what have I wrought?

    For what it’s worth, technically, the little images you’re seeing are probably more accurately called “smileys”. I tend to think of emoticons as the combinations of punctuation and other characters to form sideways faces (most of which are translated into smileys by WordPress, the software that runs this blog).

    Anyhow, perhaps this will explain why you’ll occasionally see a random smiley face when someone is numbering a list of more than seven items.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Dear me, what have I wrought?

    For what it’s worth, technically, the little images you’re seeing are probably more accurately called “smileys”. I tend to think of emoticons as the combinations of punctuation and other characters to form sideways faces (most of which are translated into smileys by WordPress, the software that runs this blog).

    Anyhow, perhaps this will explain why you’ll occasionally see a random smiley face when someone is numbering a list of more than seven items.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    trotk, she merely wishes to appear foolish as she beats on her straw man :0 . She is acting like we are glorifying a man even though we have clarified we are approaching the teachings with a Biblical view. :p

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    trotk, she merely wishes to appear foolish as she beats on her straw man :0 . She is acting like we are glorifying a man even though we have clarified we are approaching the teachings with a Biblical view. :p

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    I really do need to learn to not feed the troll :oops:

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    I really do need to learn to not feed the troll :oops:

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace does not understand this passage because she does not understand Holy Baptism.

    Grace sees something that is true about Baptism. She sees that baptism is something that is done by sinful men and that they are commanded to do. This is true.

    And Grace sees that the works of sinful men, including Baptism, cannot save us. This is true. “Ex opere operato” or the idea that we are saved just by performance of a sacrament is pure idolatry and heresy. So Grace is right here too.

    But the problem is that Grace only sees these things. She sees baptism with the eyes of a cow. No Grace. I am not calling you a cow….

    Why? One can only see what baptism works, delivers from and gives if one closes one´s eyes and sees with the eyes of faith. And what does one then see?

    One sees in baptism the sound of splashing water that is inseparably connected to what? “I baptize you in the Name of the Father , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit! Amen!” This is what one can see in baptism only by closing one´s eyes and listening.

    And so we are saved how? We are saved by sinful men applying to us personally the Most Holy Name of the Blessed and Most Holy Trinity applied to us in, with and under chlorinated tap water. And it is faith that trust in this Word of God or Most Holy Name in , with and under that ordinary common thing that we get from our kitchen faucet.

    And it is that faith alone that trust in the Promise, and therefore receives the Promised Mercy right there in Holy Baptism. Faith alone. How can we be saved by the Holy Name of the Most Blessed Trinity by any way other than alone by faith? We can´t . That´s how.

    And so ALL of St Paul´s writings have embedded in them words that should challenge us. Those words are ALL and EVERYTHING. As in EVERYTHING is yours. or ALL things are legal to do. But not everything is useful.

    This is true in that Christ who, now lifed up, literally fills ALL things. So all things are ours. All things are legal to do. But now our christian life is signified or predicated on what baptism does. And what does baptism do?

    Baptism, works the forgiveness of sins. It delivers from death and the power of the devil. It gives eternal salvation to all who believe in that Most Holy Name. This is exactly what the Words and Promise of God declares that is in , with and under that water.

    And then our life looks like what baptism doesn´t work, but what it signifies. It signifies a life of killing the Old Adam by legalistically and meticulously applying the Law to mortify him. And it looks like not being discouraged or fleeing from a life that is the death of us. It looks like every morning rising up with a sin-clean-slate that Baptism has given us so that we can pour out our Old Adam life . We pour out our life in mortification, latinate for “deathing” and participate in giving others Fatherly Goodness and Mercy that is all 1st article.

    Only in Baptismal faith we know we have EVERYTHING. We know that our life on earth is ALL about death and mortification. Yet we know that the Just have Life in the middle of all that we can see that is all death, because of our Baptism.

    This is why Lutheran and Anglican services sound so “catholic” to grace and don. The hear the name of the Most Blessed and Holy Trinity over and over and over. They do not hear that Name repeated in their churches. Why? That Holy Baptismal Name is not for them what makes one a Christian, and defines alone, what the christian life is to look like and signify.

    That´s what all this boils down to.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace does not understand this passage because she does not understand Holy Baptism.

    Grace sees something that is true about Baptism. She sees that baptism is something that is done by sinful men and that they are commanded to do. This is true.

    And Grace sees that the works of sinful men, including Baptism, cannot save us. This is true. “Ex opere operato” or the idea that we are saved just by performance of a sacrament is pure idolatry and heresy. So Grace is right here too.

    But the problem is that Grace only sees these things. She sees baptism with the eyes of a cow. No Grace. I am not calling you a cow….

    Why? One can only see what baptism works, delivers from and gives if one closes one´s eyes and sees with the eyes of faith. And what does one then see?

    One sees in baptism the sound of splashing water that is inseparably connected to what? “I baptize you in the Name of the Father , and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit! Amen!” This is what one can see in baptism only by closing one´s eyes and listening.

    And so we are saved how? We are saved by sinful men applying to us personally the Most Holy Name of the Blessed and Most Holy Trinity applied to us in, with and under chlorinated tap water. And it is faith that trust in this Word of God or Most Holy Name in , with and under that ordinary common thing that we get from our kitchen faucet.

    And it is that faith alone that trust in the Promise, and therefore receives the Promised Mercy right there in Holy Baptism. Faith alone. How can we be saved by the Holy Name of the Most Blessed Trinity by any way other than alone by faith? We can´t . That´s how.

    And so ALL of St Paul´s writings have embedded in them words that should challenge us. Those words are ALL and EVERYTHING. As in EVERYTHING is yours. or ALL things are legal to do. But not everything is useful.

    This is true in that Christ who, now lifed up, literally fills ALL things. So all things are ours. All things are legal to do. But now our christian life is signified or predicated on what baptism does. And what does baptism do?

    Baptism, works the forgiveness of sins. It delivers from death and the power of the devil. It gives eternal salvation to all who believe in that Most Holy Name. This is exactly what the Words and Promise of God declares that is in , with and under that water.

    And then our life looks like what baptism doesn´t work, but what it signifies. It signifies a life of killing the Old Adam by legalistically and meticulously applying the Law to mortify him. And it looks like not being discouraged or fleeing from a life that is the death of us. It looks like every morning rising up with a sin-clean-slate that Baptism has given us so that we can pour out our Old Adam life . We pour out our life in mortification, latinate for “deathing” and participate in giving others Fatherly Goodness and Mercy that is all 1st article.

    Only in Baptismal faith we know we have EVERYTHING. We know that our life on earth is ALL about death and mortification. Yet we know that the Just have Life in the middle of all that we can see that is all death, because of our Baptism.

    This is why Lutheran and Anglican services sound so “catholic” to grace and don. The hear the name of the Most Blessed and Holy Trinity over and over and over. They do not hear that Name repeated in their churches. Why? That Holy Baptismal Name is not for them what makes one a Christian, and defines alone, what the christian life is to look like and signify.

    That´s what all this boils down to.

  • Stephen

    Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

    Whatever was John doing, or Jesus for that matter, and what was being done there in that water? Who was actually the doer? Who was consenting to what? Who is it that fulfills all righteousness in that doing of water and word? Buried with Christ in baptism. Raised with him to new life.

    All things are yours.

  • Stephen

    Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

    Whatever was John doing, or Jesus for that matter, and what was being done there in that water? Who was actually the doer? Who was consenting to what? Who is it that fulfills all righteousness in that doing of water and word? Buried with Christ in baptism. Raised with him to new life.

    All things are yours.

  • Grace

    fws – 55

    “Grace does not understand this passage because she does not understand Holy Baptism.”

    “But the problem is that Grace only sees these things. She sees baptism with the eyes of a cow.”

    You flatter yourself, what you have stated above is ignorant in a boastful manner, BUT without knowledge, it doesn’t serve you well. Most all your remarks are bogus, and uneducated. You pretend to know my heart, as only GOD can know it, yet you play the part of God in defining my love, devotion, and Baptism, mocking the very core of my relationship to the LORD Jesus Christ, my Savior. God have mercy on you.

    1 Corinthians 3 is not about baptism – in your effort to dissemble and misrepresent the text you failed. The text and context of the passage is well defined, but you use it to mock me.

  • Grace

    fws – 55

    “Grace does not understand this passage because she does not understand Holy Baptism.”

    “But the problem is that Grace only sees these things. She sees baptism with the eyes of a cow.”

    You flatter yourself, what you have stated above is ignorant in a boastful manner, BUT without knowledge, it doesn’t serve you well. Most all your remarks are bogus, and uneducated. You pretend to know my heart, as only GOD can know it, yet you play the part of God in defining my love, devotion, and Baptism, mocking the very core of my relationship to the LORD Jesus Christ, my Savior. God have mercy on you.

    1 Corinthians 3 is not about baptism – in your effort to dissemble and misrepresent the text you failed. The text and context of the passage is well defined, but you use it to mock me.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 57

    I need to appologize to you. My choice of wording was extreeeeeemly unwise. “cows eyes” is south dakota talk for someone looking at something without realizing what it is. but it was a really really bad option here. no dear grace I had no intention at all of mocking you.

    Yes this passage has everything to do with Baptism for a Lutheran christian.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 57

    I need to appologize to you. My choice of wording was extreeeeeemly unwise. “cows eyes” is south dakota talk for someone looking at something without realizing what it is. but it was a really really bad option here. no dear grace I had no intention at all of mocking you.

    Yes this passage has everything to do with Baptism for a Lutheran christian.

  • Grace

    fws – 58

    “I need to appologize to you. My choice of wording was extreeeeeemly unwise. “cows eyes” is south dakota talk for someone looking at something without realizing what it is.”

    It wasn’t only “unwise” but FALSE – your apology is wrought with a tag on disclaimer, “choice of wording” you chose the wrong wording to define what you meant, however it all ends up to be the same thing.

    – as I stated in post 57:

    “‘You pretend to know my heart, as only GOD can know it, yet you play the part of God in defining my love, devotion, and Baptism, mocking the very core of my relationship to the LORD Jesus Christ, my Savior. God have mercy on you.”

    “Yes this passage has everything to do with Baptism for a Lutheran christian.”

    The passage in 1 Corinthians 3 AGAIN: “1 Corinthians 3 is not about baptism – in your effort to dissemble and misrepresent the text you failed. The text and context of the passage is well defined, but you use it to mock me.”

    It has nothing to do with being Lutheran, it has to do with the passage itself – their is no Baptism involved in the passage, however……. I’m sure you and a few others can find a way to twist its meaning.

  • Grace

    fws – 58

    “I need to appologize to you. My choice of wording was extreeeeeemly unwise. “cows eyes” is south dakota talk for someone looking at something without realizing what it is.”

    It wasn’t only “unwise” but FALSE – your apology is wrought with a tag on disclaimer, “choice of wording” you chose the wrong wording to define what you meant, however it all ends up to be the same thing.

    – as I stated in post 57:

    “‘You pretend to know my heart, as only GOD can know it, yet you play the part of God in defining my love, devotion, and Baptism, mocking the very core of my relationship to the LORD Jesus Christ, my Savior. God have mercy on you.”

    “Yes this passage has everything to do with Baptism for a Lutheran christian.”

    The passage in 1 Corinthians 3 AGAIN: “1 Corinthians 3 is not about baptism – in your effort to dissemble and misrepresent the text you failed. The text and context of the passage is well defined, but you use it to mock me.”

    It has nothing to do with being Lutheran, it has to do with the passage itself – their is no Baptism involved in the passage, however……. I’m sure you and a few others can find a way to twist its meaning.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @58

    Do you not hate when somebody spits your apology back at you.

    I think I know where you are going with this statement but would you mind clarifying.

    @59

    Why don’t you live up to your name and express a little grace when somebody apologizes.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    @58

    Do you not hate when somebody spits your apology back at you.

    I think I know where you are going with this statement but would you mind clarifying.

    @59

    Why don’t you live up to your name and express a little grace when somebody apologizes.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X