Patrick Henry College is #1 in test scores

Please forgive me for bragging about the academic prowess of my students.  This is something I wrote about the findings of our assessment efforts at Patrick Henry College, where I am the Provost and a Literature Professor:

A new book and a spate of news reports are presenting evidence that America’s college students, on the whole, are not learning very much. They score poorly in critical thinking, writing, and other academic skills. Most college students score abysmally low in “civic literacy,” the basic knowledge of America’s heritage of freedom and self-government. Though they might pick up some very narrow specialized knowledge in their majors, they find it difficult to think outside of their professional boxes and make real-world connections.

These things cannot be said, however, of Patrick Henry College students. Assessment data keeps pouring in that shows PHC students outperforming their peers in every category tested.

On the ETS Proficiency Profile, a recognized and widely-used standardized test of academic proficiency in higher education, Patrick Henry College students posted the highest average scores of all institutions that took the test. Those 261 schools taking the test included liberal arts colleges and large research, doctoral-granting universities. Among those taking that test, PHC’s academic performance is #1.

In their much-discussed new book Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses, educational scholars Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa express special concern for the low scores college students at large register in critical thinking and writing, asmeasured by similar tests.

PHC students, however, posted the highest average scores (a number drawn from all students, not just a few high performers) of all institutions that took the ETS test in critical thinking.  Also in writing.  Also in reading.  And in humanities.  And in Social Sciences.  And in Mathematics.  And in Natural Sciences.  PHC students were number one not only in the total score, but in every category tested.

But some might say all of this book learning is obsolete.  We are in the information age.  What students most need today is to adapt to technology.

Well, one does not have to agree with that to appreciate that PHC students have also ranked #1 in informational literacy also!   PHC students took the Standardized Assessment of Information Literacy Skills test developed by Kent State, and, again, their average score was higher than that of students from all other institutions that took the test.

Does this mean that PHC is the best college academically in the nation?  We can’t say that.  Not all colleges and universities take part in these standardized tests.  The elite Ivy League colleges, having nothing to prove, do not subject their students to all of this testing.  Some colleges might be afraid of what the tests might show about their academic quality.  PHC, though, does have something to prove — that a solidly Christian college with conservative principles can be an academic powerhouse — and the data that has been collected is proving it.

What is the secret to PHC’s academic success?

One answer is suggested by another problem in higher education that is receiving attention.  In an op-ed piece for the Washington Post entitled “Our Stunted Scholars,” Heather Wilson, who interviews applicants for the Rhodes Scholarship, sees something lacking in even our best students.  “I have,” she writes,” become increasingly concerned in recent years — not about the talent of the applicants but about the education American universities are providing.”

Even from America’s great liberal arts colleges, transcripts reflect an undergraduate specialization that would have been unthinkably narrow just a generation ago. As a result, high-achieving students seem less able to grapple with issues that require them to think across disciplines or reflect on difficult questions about what matters and why. . . . Our great universities seem to have redefined what it means to be an exceptional student. They are producing top students who have given very little thought to matters beyond their impressive grasp of an intense area of study. This narrowing has resulted in a curiously unprepared and superficial pre-professionalism.

Part of the problem is that most colleges and universities have given up on a liberal arts education.  Instead of giving students a solid foundation in a wide range of interconnected academic disciplines, which build up knowledge and mental skills that they can then draw on in their majors, most colleges send their students right into a narrow specialty.  The classic, integrated, core curriculum has been reduced to a handful of “general education” requirements that can be satisfied by students picking and choosing from a list of specialized and unconnected courses.

Patrick Henry College students, on the other hand, benefit from a broad and rich core curriculum of 63 credits, plus foreign language proficiency.  This “common core” means that every single student takes all of the courses, so that they all receive the same carefully-constructed educational foundation.  All PHC students study the great books of our civilization.  They take courses in logic and rhetoric, and they practice deep thinking and effective writing in all of their classes.  They take not one, but four, history courses.  They all study Constitutional Law.  They take two “Freedom’s Foundation” courses, in which they study the ideas that formed this country, from Plato’s Republic to The Federalist Papers.

PHC students see how all knowledge is interconnected.  What they are reading in their literature classes is illuminated by what they are reading in their theology classes.  The beautiful sounds they are enjoying in their music class are understood on another level when they study waves and harmonics in physics.

The core builds up students’ mental muscles for when they do specialize.  PHC offers majors in journalism, history, literature, the classical liberal arts, and government. Students may specialize within the majors in tracks like American Politics & Policy, International Politics & Policy, Political Theory, and Strategic Intelligence.

Another feature of PHC’s unique educational program is our apprenticeship requirement.  Students put what they have learned into practice in congressional offices, think tanks, businesses, local schools, the media, and other “real world” settings.  Internship directors love to have PHC students.  We keep hearing, “Your students can really write well!”  “They can really think and analyze!”  “They are so articulate, and they present themselves so well!”  Implicitly, these internship directors are comparing our students’ work against that of typical college students!

A key factor in PHC’s academic quality, in addition to its traditional, yet innovative curriculum, is its faculty.  Every professor is at once a devoted Christian, a world-class scholar, and an engaging classroom teacher.

Above all is PHC’s commitment to Christian truth.  In Christ “all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17).  In the postmodernist academic scene, truth is relative, morality is subjective, and nothing has objective meaning.  No wonder the academy is having trouble teaching anything of value.  But PHC has laid a full foundation for education.  And while the typical college culture is one of frat-house partying and promiscuous hook-ups, PHC students comprise a counterculture that grows out of a love of learning, moral integrity, and authentic Christian community.

The testing reveals something else about PHC’s success.  PHC’s students, over 80% of whom are home-schooled, are exceptionally well-prepared.  The college has been administering the ETS Proficiency Profile for three years to both graduating seniors and to incoming freshmen.  In a tribute to their parents, who in one way or the other supervised their education, PHC incoming freshmen, when compared to first-year students at other institutions that took the test, also were #1 in all categories!

via 20110223 – Veith – PHC Students Outperform.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • katy

    Congratulations! As a home-schooled-through-high-schooler and good friend of a PHC alumna, I salute you and your colleagues (thanks for a hat-tip to parents, too).

  • katy

    Congratulations! As a home-schooled-through-high-schooler and good friend of a PHC alumna, I salute you and your colleagues (thanks for a hat-tip to parents, too).

  • Dennis Peskey

    Congratulations to Patrick Henry College and to their excellent provost and our most gracious web-blog host, Dr. Gene Veith.
    Peace,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    Congratulations to Patrick Henry College and to their excellent provost and our most gracious web-blog host, Dr. Gene Veith.
    Peace,
    Dennis

  • Michael Z.

    Sorry for bringing down your averages Dr. Veith, glad to see that we still made #1 average. :-P

  • Michael Z.

    Sorry for bringing down your averages Dr. Veith, glad to see that we still made #1 average. :-P

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ETS lists schools that participate:

    http://www.ets.org/proficiencyprofile/scores/compare_data

    I looked up Patrick Henry at the college board and its incoming students have pretty high SAT scores especially in Reading and Writing. I didn’t look up the incoming scores of freshmen at the other colleges, but it would be hard to imagine that on average they are anywhere near as high as Patrick Henry.

    http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=227266&profileId=6

    ETS advertises the Proficiency Profile as a way to, “measure student learning while making the best use of your institution’s resources.” So, I guess that a college whose students rank #1 both entering and leaving is using its resources effectively. What about an institution whose students rank #10 entering and leave at #5, #10, or #20? Of course, it’s all relative, as far as rank goes.

    It would be interesting to see how much students grew based on the criterion scores.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ETS lists schools that participate:

    http://www.ets.org/proficiencyprofile/scores/compare_data

    I looked up Patrick Henry at the college board and its incoming students have pretty high SAT scores especially in Reading and Writing. I didn’t look up the incoming scores of freshmen at the other colleges, but it would be hard to imagine that on average they are anywhere near as high as Patrick Henry.

    http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=227266&profileId=6

    ETS advertises the Proficiency Profile as a way to, “measure student learning while making the best use of your institution’s resources.” So, I guess that a college whose students rank #1 both entering and leaving is using its resources effectively. What about an institution whose students rank #10 entering and leave at #5, #10, or #20? Of course, it’s all relative, as far as rank goes.

    It would be interesting to see how much students grew based on the criterion scores.

  • Pingback: Tweets that mention Patrick Henry College is #1 in test scores | Cranach: The Blog of Veith -- Topsy.com

  • Pingback: Tweets that mention Patrick Henry College is #1 in test scores | Cranach: The Blog of Veith -- Topsy.com

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    Congratulations are in order, sir, and thank you also for plugging a liberal arts education.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    Congratulations are in order, sir, and thank you also for plugging a liberal arts education.

  • WebMonk

    Any chance PHC will post the results of the ETS PP? I know there are quite a few other colleges that do this.

  • WebMonk

    Any chance PHC will post the results of the ETS PP? I know there are quite a few other colleges that do this.

  • DonS

    Congratulations to PHC, to you, Dr. Veith, and to the other dedicated faculty and administrators who have, in God’s grace and power, realized so much progress and promise in a scant decade. PHC alumni are beginning to have a real impact on our world, and they are only just getting started.

  • DonS

    Congratulations to PHC, to you, Dr. Veith, and to the other dedicated faculty and administrators who have, in God’s grace and power, realized so much progress and promise in a scant decade. PHC alumni are beginning to have a real impact on our world, and they are only just getting started.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Webmonk, you can figure out the scores because you know that Patrick Henry is #1 and in the section, Specialized Institutions, in which they are listed, the #1 school listed on the data table is separated by a fair margin from all the others.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Webmonk, you can figure out the scores because you know that Patrick Henry is #1 and in the section, Specialized Institutions, in which they are listed, the #1 school listed on the data table is separated by a fair margin from all the others.

  • WebMonk

    I was hoping for some more detailed information than that, such as what the actual scores were for the different categories.

    Maybe I’m just looking at the wrong page? What’s the URL you’re looking at?

    I have for seniors: http://www.ets.org/s/proficiencyprofile/pdf/CredS_CarnA_AllTabs.pdf

    I realize they have ones just for “Specialized Institutions” which is PHC’s category, but since PHC came in at the top of all institutions which took the test, I figured it would be best to check that list.

    I was hoping to get something like this: http://ucdaccreditation.ucdenver.edu/FileHandler.ashx?id=1809 but for PHC.

  • WebMonk

    I was hoping for some more detailed information than that, such as what the actual scores were for the different categories.

    Maybe I’m just looking at the wrong page? What’s the URL you’re looking at?

    I have for seniors: http://www.ets.org/s/proficiencyprofile/pdf/CredS_CarnA_AllTabs.pdf

    I realize they have ones just for “Specialized Institutions” which is PHC’s category, but since PHC came in at the top of all institutions which took the test, I figured it would be best to check that list.

    I was hoping to get something like this: http://ucdaccreditation.ucdenver.edu/FileHandler.ashx?id=1809 but for PHC.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Webmonk, did you look at all of the tables? The scores and percentiles are all there. Some are just ranges but you can still get a pretty good idea. Now, if you didn’t know the school’s rank, the tables would be useless.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Webmonk, did you look at all of the tables? The scores and percentiles are all there. Some are just ranges but you can still get a pretty good idea. Now, if you didn’t know the school’s rank, the tables would be useless.

  • WebMonk

    Maybe I’m just being too nosy – I was hoping to get the exact scores, not just the ranges.

  • WebMonk

    Maybe I’m just being too nosy – I was hoping to get the exact scores, not just the ranges.

  • WebMonk

    The papers don’t specifically say which college is at the top, however, they do have a report that lists all the colleges together and their ranks compared to each other. PHC is at the top of that list in all categories (as Dr. Veith has stated) and so it does seem that PHC is compared to all institutions which took the test. Dr. Veith specifically mentions that PHC is being compared against 261 other schools, which is the exact number of schools listed.

    If you want to play devil’s advocate with this, you could probably point out that the list of schools seems to have a lot of community and state colleges which tend to not be top-tier schools, and I don’t see any of the elite universities such as Stanford, Duke, Harvard, etc.

    However, there are enough colleges listed on there, which seem to come from a wide enough cross-section, that coming out on top in every category against them all is still very impressive.

  • WebMonk

    The papers don’t specifically say which college is at the top, however, they do have a report that lists all the colleges together and their ranks compared to each other. PHC is at the top of that list in all categories (as Dr. Veith has stated) and so it does seem that PHC is compared to all institutions which took the test. Dr. Veith specifically mentions that PHC is being compared against 261 other schools, which is the exact number of schools listed.

    If you want to play devil’s advocate with this, you could probably point out that the list of schools seems to have a lot of community and state colleges which tend to not be top-tier schools, and I don’t see any of the elite universities such as Stanford, Duke, Harvard, etc.

    However, there are enough colleges listed on there, which seem to come from a wide enough cross-section, that coming out on top in every category against them all is still very impressive.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Congrats to PHC!

    My alma mater, KBC came in 6, 312th.

    ( Krebs Barber College, Sherman Oaks, CA – defunct)

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Congrats to PHC!

    My alma mater, KBC came in 6, 312th.

    ( Krebs Barber College, Sherman Oaks, CA – defunct)

  • Maccabeus

    Congratulations and keep the good work going! I’m already considering PHC as a top option for my home schooled children, despite the fact that it will be another 10 years before they can attend. (God willing, the Concordias will be other good alternatives. But I’m going to reserve judgment on that until we get closer in time).

  • Maccabeus

    Congratulations and keep the good work going! I’m already considering PHC as a top option for my home schooled children, despite the fact that it will be another 10 years before they can attend. (God willing, the Concordias will be other good alternatives. But I’m going to reserve judgment on that until we get closer in time).

  • Lily

    Bravo! May your tribe increase! :)

  • Lily

    Bravo! May your tribe increase! :)

  • http://journeytoluther.blogspot.com/ moallen

    Congrats! I now want my kids to go to Patrick Henry – if they can only make it through grade school….

    They are attending a Classical school – and I actually saw Dr. Veith speak at a Classical Christian Education conference back in the 9os in Kansas City MO; before I knew what Classical Education was (my wife was into it) or really even what a Lutheran was! Believe me, it is a challenge for kids.

  • http://journeytoluther.blogspot.com/ moallen

    Congrats! I now want my kids to go to Patrick Henry – if they can only make it through grade school….

    They are attending a Classical school – and I actually saw Dr. Veith speak at a Classical Christian Education conference back in the 9os in Kansas City MO; before I knew what Classical Education was (my wife was into it) or really even what a Lutheran was! Believe me, it is a challenge for kids.

  • Grace

    I read this over more than a few times, my husband read it once.

    “On the ETS Proficiency Profile, a recognized and widely-used standardized test of academic proficiency in higher education, Patrick Henry College students posted the highest average scores of all institutions that took the test.”

    Your title for this thread reads: “Patrick Henry College is #1 in test scores” – - it would be much more accurate to say “Patrick Henry College students are highest within average scores” – the actual title is misleading.

    I’m sure Patrick Henry College is a very good school, however it’s test results are not averaged in the highest scores.
    LOW, AVERAGE and HIGH are three different results – there is nothing wrong with “average” but it isn’t #1 in test scores, unless you entitle the piece to read “Patrick Henry College students are highest within average scores” –

    As Michael Z. posted #3:

    “Sorry for bringing down your averages Dr. Veith, glad to see that we still made #1 average.

    “But PHC has laid a full foundation for education. And while the typical college culture is one of frat-house partying and promiscuous hook-ups, PHC students comprise a counterculture that grows out of a love of learning, moral integrity, and authentic Christian community.”

    Definition: “hook-ups” – to engage in any type of sexual activity.

    The above is a slang term, that almost all savvy adults know the meaning, and young people most all “get it” – it’s a derogatory phrase.

    I take umbrage with such brash statements, unfounded but bandied about as though it were truth. Sin abounds everywhere, to single out what you describe as “typical college culture” is judging everyone by your singular opinion.

    We have an abundance of young people in my family, they by no means fit within your statement of “typical college culture is one of frat-house partying and promiscuous hook-ups” – - and yes, some are affiliated with top schools, from Davis, Berkley, Harvard, USC, UCSD, and the list goes on and on, including law schools and universities in many other states including the eastern states.

    The Christian college campus is by no means a bastion of sexual purity.

  • Grace

    I read this over more than a few times, my husband read it once.

    “On the ETS Proficiency Profile, a recognized and widely-used standardized test of academic proficiency in higher education, Patrick Henry College students posted the highest average scores of all institutions that took the test.”

    Your title for this thread reads: “Patrick Henry College is #1 in test scores” – - it would be much more accurate to say “Patrick Henry College students are highest within average scores” – the actual title is misleading.

    I’m sure Patrick Henry College is a very good school, however it’s test results are not averaged in the highest scores.
    LOW, AVERAGE and HIGH are three different results – there is nothing wrong with “average” but it isn’t #1 in test scores, unless you entitle the piece to read “Patrick Henry College students are highest within average scores” –

    As Michael Z. posted #3:

    “Sorry for bringing down your averages Dr. Veith, glad to see that we still made #1 average.

    “But PHC has laid a full foundation for education. And while the typical college culture is one of frat-house partying and promiscuous hook-ups, PHC students comprise a counterculture that grows out of a love of learning, moral integrity, and authentic Christian community.”

    Definition: “hook-ups” – to engage in any type of sexual activity.

    The above is a slang term, that almost all savvy adults know the meaning, and young people most all “get it” – it’s a derogatory phrase.

    I take umbrage with such brash statements, unfounded but bandied about as though it were truth. Sin abounds everywhere, to single out what you describe as “typical college culture” is judging everyone by your singular opinion.

    We have an abundance of young people in my family, they by no means fit within your statement of “typical college culture is one of frat-house partying and promiscuous hook-ups” – - and yes, some are affiliated with top schools, from Davis, Berkley, Harvard, USC, UCSD, and the list goes on and on, including law schools and universities in many other states including the eastern states.

    The Christian college campus is by no means a bastion of sexual purity.

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ Carol-Christian Soldier

    Micheal Farris had a grand vision-HSLD and Patrick Henry College–
    Thank you Mike-
    And thank you Gene Veith for being a Christian leader who helps train Christian leaders–and for the information on this post—
    If my homeschooled off-spring had not gone to WP -PH would have been an option…
    C-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ Carol-Christian Soldier

    Micheal Farris had a grand vision-HSLD and Patrick Henry College–
    Thank you Mike-
    And thank you Gene Veith for being a Christian leader who helps train Christian leaders–and for the information on this post—
    If my homeschooled off-spring had not gone to WP -PH would have been an option…
    C-CS

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@18), you have misunderstood what Dr. Veith said. He is using the word “average” in the mathematical sense (the arithmetic mean), and not, as you have assumed, in the sense of being “common”.

    In this case, the average that was taken was of all the scores achieved by individual PHC students. It is that average — that single number that represents, well, on average, how the students did en masse — that was #1 among all other schools being compared. This does not mean that any single PHC student outperformed any other single student from any other school, but it does mean that, as a group, PHC students outperformed their peers at other schools. As such, Dr. Veith’s title for this post is very much appropriate.

    You then move on to a different topic: “The above is a slang term, that almost all savvy adults know the meaning.” Honestly, when you post definitions for us here (as you frequently do), it gives me the impression that you didn’t know what the word meant. And if all of us know the meaning, why are you defining it for us?

    Regardless, why are you “taking umbrage” at this statement? No one was talking about you or your family. Yes, “sin abounds everywhere”. True, “the Christian college campus is by no means a bastion of sexual purity.” These are points no one was disputing. But you’ve done nothing to rebut the idea of a “typical college culture … of promiscuous hook-ups”. All you’ve done is attempted to cite personal anecdotes to prove a cultural claim is false. That won’t work.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@18), you have misunderstood what Dr. Veith said. He is using the word “average” in the mathematical sense (the arithmetic mean), and not, as you have assumed, in the sense of being “common”.

    In this case, the average that was taken was of all the scores achieved by individual PHC students. It is that average — that single number that represents, well, on average, how the students did en masse — that was #1 among all other schools being compared. This does not mean that any single PHC student outperformed any other single student from any other school, but it does mean that, as a group, PHC students outperformed their peers at other schools. As such, Dr. Veith’s title for this post is very much appropriate.

    You then move on to a different topic: “The above is a slang term, that almost all savvy adults know the meaning.” Honestly, when you post definitions for us here (as you frequently do), it gives me the impression that you didn’t know what the word meant. And if all of us know the meaning, why are you defining it for us?

    Regardless, why are you “taking umbrage” at this statement? No one was talking about you or your family. Yes, “sin abounds everywhere”. True, “the Christian college campus is by no means a bastion of sexual purity.” These are points no one was disputing. But you’ve done nothing to rebut the idea of a “typical college culture … of promiscuous hook-ups”. All you’ve done is attempted to cite personal anecdotes to prove a cultural claim is false. That won’t work.

  • Pingback: YEC college scores #1 in academics « The GeoChristian

  • Pingback: YEC college scores #1 in academics « The GeoChristian

  • Grace

    “Grace (@18), you have misunderstood what Dr. Veith said. He is using the word “average” in the mathematical sense (the arithmetic mean), and not, as you have assumed, in the sense of being “common”.”

    Forget the “common” twister, let’s get on with the subject at hand:

    I didn’t misunderstand a thing. I understand math, and I understand the simple words written. The TITLE is misleading, however the real deal is hidden within the text below the TITLE.

    VEITH WROTE: “On the ETS Proficiency Profile, a recognized and widely-used standardized test of academic proficiency in higher education, Patrick Henry College students posted the highest average scores of all institutions that took the test.”,

    tODD WRITES: “In this case, the average that was taken was of all the scores achieved by individual PHC students. It is that average — that single number that represents, well, on average, how the students did en masse — that was #1 among all other schools being compared.

    Who is arguing that point tODD” ? – NO ONE – …. it is still the “highest average” of the AVERAGE, not the highest or the lowest, but the AVERAGE –

    “In this case, the average that was taken was of all the scores achieved by individual PHC students. It is that average — that single number that represents, well, on average, how the students did en masse — that was #1 among all other schools being compared. This does not mean that any single PHC student outperformed any other single student from any other school, but it does mean that, as a group, PHC students outperformed their peers at other schools. As such, Dr. Veith’s title for this post is very much appropriate.”

    Tests counted as LOW – AVERAGE – HIGH -

    It means simply as stated earlier – – – “it would be much more accurate to say “Patrick Henry College students are highest within average scores” – ……. that means PHC students rate highest within the average group within the test scores. Not a difficult equation, math problem, just a simple way of rating who is low, average and high within a group in ANY GROUP. The group that is being discussed is the AVERAGE group, of which PHC is rated high in the average group.

    “You then move on to a different topic: “The above is a slang term, that almost all savvy adults know the meaning.” Honestly, when you post definitions for us here (as you frequently do), it gives me the impression that you didn’t know what the word meant. And if all of us know the meaning, why are you defining it for us?”

    Because you are all claiming to be pure as the driven snow, not knowing what “hook up” means, OR you are _____, take your choice. Both throw back what you tossed into the mix. It doesn’t speak well of either.

    “But you’ve done nothing to rebut the idea of a “typical college culture … of promiscuous hook-ups”. All you’ve done is attempted to cite personal anecdotes to prove a cultural claim is false. That won’t work.”

    I don’t have to, it is up to the individual who makes the accusation (Dr. Veith) to prove their point. I stand in opposition to the disgusting accusation that is made towards other colleges/universities – “hook ups” a vulgar accusation against anyone connected with a university/college – as far as “personal anecdotes” I could cite most all Ivy League schools, along with the best universities in the United states to prove my point. Who is willing to degrade all the academic achievements of these men and women, choosing instead to attack their morals, reciting such dirt slang as “hook ups” ? – most likely it’s done to discredit anyone who doesn’t attend a so called Christian college, but instead attacks those who don’t –

    Dr. Veith made the statement, that would be the best individual to defend his remarks, certainly not you, you didn’t make them.

  • Grace

    “Grace (@18), you have misunderstood what Dr. Veith said. He is using the word “average” in the mathematical sense (the arithmetic mean), and not, as you have assumed, in the sense of being “common”.”

    Forget the “common” twister, let’s get on with the subject at hand:

    I didn’t misunderstand a thing. I understand math, and I understand the simple words written. The TITLE is misleading, however the real deal is hidden within the text below the TITLE.

    VEITH WROTE: “On the ETS Proficiency Profile, a recognized and widely-used standardized test of academic proficiency in higher education, Patrick Henry College students posted the highest average scores of all institutions that took the test.”,

    tODD WRITES: “In this case, the average that was taken was of all the scores achieved by individual PHC students. It is that average — that single number that represents, well, on average, how the students did en masse — that was #1 among all other schools being compared.

    Who is arguing that point tODD” ? – NO ONE – …. it is still the “highest average” of the AVERAGE, not the highest or the lowest, but the AVERAGE –

    “In this case, the average that was taken was of all the scores achieved by individual PHC students. It is that average — that single number that represents, well, on average, how the students did en masse — that was #1 among all other schools being compared. This does not mean that any single PHC student outperformed any other single student from any other school, but it does mean that, as a group, PHC students outperformed their peers at other schools. As such, Dr. Veith’s title for this post is very much appropriate.”

    Tests counted as LOW – AVERAGE – HIGH -

    It means simply as stated earlier – – – “it would be much more accurate to say “Patrick Henry College students are highest within average scores” – ……. that means PHC students rate highest within the average group within the test scores. Not a difficult equation, math problem, just a simple way of rating who is low, average and high within a group in ANY GROUP. The group that is being discussed is the AVERAGE group, of which PHC is rated high in the average group.

    “You then move on to a different topic: “The above is a slang term, that almost all savvy adults know the meaning.” Honestly, when you post definitions for us here (as you frequently do), it gives me the impression that you didn’t know what the word meant. And if all of us know the meaning, why are you defining it for us?”

    Because you are all claiming to be pure as the driven snow, not knowing what “hook up” means, OR you are _____, take your choice. Both throw back what you tossed into the mix. It doesn’t speak well of either.

    “But you’ve done nothing to rebut the idea of a “typical college culture … of promiscuous hook-ups”. All you’ve done is attempted to cite personal anecdotes to prove a cultural claim is false. That won’t work.”

    I don’t have to, it is up to the individual who makes the accusation (Dr. Veith) to prove their point. I stand in opposition to the disgusting accusation that is made towards other colleges/universities – “hook ups” a vulgar accusation against anyone connected with a university/college – as far as “personal anecdotes” I could cite most all Ivy League schools, along with the best universities in the United states to prove my point. Who is willing to degrade all the academic achievements of these men and women, choosing instead to attack their morals, reciting such dirt slang as “hook ups” ? – most likely it’s done to discredit anyone who doesn’t attend a so called Christian college, but instead attacks those who don’t –

    Dr. Veith made the statement, that would be the best individual to defend his remarks, certainly not you, you didn’t make them.

  • Grace

    No one knows who any fraternity brother or sorority sister is immoral, to deem anyone immoral, without knowing them is to cast judgment without knowledge. “hook up” is a most degrading term to use upon anyone, most certainly those who don’t attend a Christian college.

    Do you really think a college student would be enticed to learn more about the LORD Jesus Christ by reading about how they are thought of in the great universities of our country…. as “hook ups” think before you write and speak – who on earth are any of you to speak to sharply to those you hope to share the love of Christ with?

    Is this your neighbor or your competitor?

  • Grace

    No one knows who any fraternity brother or sorority sister is immoral, to deem anyone immoral, without knowing them is to cast judgment without knowledge. “hook up” is a most degrading term to use upon anyone, most certainly those who don’t attend a Christian college.

    Do you really think a college student would be enticed to learn more about the LORD Jesus Christ by reading about how they are thought of in the great universities of our country…. as “hook ups” think before you write and speak – who on earth are any of you to speak to sharply to those you hope to share the love of Christ with?

    Is this your neighbor or your competitor?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace, where are you getting the “low, average, high” from?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace, where are you getting the “low, average, high” from?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @22

    Wow. I think I get your point and actually agree with it dear Grace.

    “Above all is PHC’s commitment to Christian truth “….
    Define truth that is christian vs that which is not please.
    Above all what to be specific?
    Morality?Meaning?
    The only truth reason can know..making sacrifice is needed?
    “In Christ “all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17).”….
    How is this different than “In God all things hold together”
    which is also true, and…
    which is what any Muslim, JW or Mormon could believe?
    “In the postmodernist academic scene,”
    truth is relative,
    morality is subjective, and
    nothing has objective meaning. ”

    This is saying that in the post modernist sense, the law of gravity is relative, subjective and has no objective meaning. Does anyone really believe this? And even if someone did, the law always accuses. Jumping out of a window is a sure and certain corrective. God reveals his Divine Law in the hearts of ALL men. We can deny the truth of anything all day long and it will still remain and it will still eventually grind us down and kill us. Veith is talking here about the Law of God. Let´s be clear here.

    JP Sarte was a great example of this. He argued for all those post-modernist ideas. And he was very active in decrying the injustices happening in Algeria in his day. Man proposes. So? God still disposes!

    The Law does us. We don´t do the Law even if we think we do.

    This statement implies that there can be no true morality without faith in a god. Or maybe faith in Jesus. And that implies that God´s working out his Fatherly Goodness and Mercy on earth somehow depends on us. And it depends on us as “christians” according to our works. It won´t happen unless we are moral, faithful, diligent christians.

    Our Small Catechism say the exact contrary. It teaches us that ALL the 1st article and 4th petition Fatherly Goodness and Mercy on earth happens how? Even all the stuff that happens in a christian church happens how?

    without our merit or worthiness… indeed without our asking… without our prayer…. even for all the wicked (insert your name here).”
    http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php

    God is always faithful right in the middle of our UNfaith-fullness. See the story of the LawLESS Judge nagged by a concience for which love has died to see exactly how this works.

    So Dr Veith is relating that PHC asserts that THE difference is that the faculty and students at PHC are christian. That is is entire point at the end of the article. Maybe they just have more focus and discipline due to the nature of their students and faculty? This says that christians are more moral than pagans. Is this true?

    Maybe these things could be exactly duplicated by any pagan institution without any need for faith in a god or in Christ? Maybe they should be duplicated?

    But now to the point: maybe they never will be, because Vieth is saying PHC´s educational thesis is that none of these academic goods could happen in an institution who´s students and faculty believe in a god, no god or are not Christian?

    How does that thesis serve anyone but PHC? Is it true? That thesis is stated in this way:

    “And while the typical college culture is one of
    frat-house partying and (Christ is needed to stop this?)
    promiscuous hook-ups, (Christ is needed to stop this?) ”

    No need for Christ to fix this problem is there?
    and here…

    “PHC students comprise a
    counterculture that grows out of a
    love of learning, (Christ or a faith is needed for this?)
    moral integrity, (Christ or a faith is needed for this?)
    authentic Christian community (what IS this?).”

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Grace @22

    Wow. I think I get your point and actually agree with it dear Grace.

    “Above all is PHC’s commitment to Christian truth “….
    Define truth that is christian vs that which is not please.
    Above all what to be specific?
    Morality?Meaning?
    The only truth reason can know..making sacrifice is needed?
    “In Christ “all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17).”….
    How is this different than “In God all things hold together”
    which is also true, and…
    which is what any Muslim, JW or Mormon could believe?
    “In the postmodernist academic scene,”
    truth is relative,
    morality is subjective, and
    nothing has objective meaning. ”

    This is saying that in the post modernist sense, the law of gravity is relative, subjective and has no objective meaning. Does anyone really believe this? And even if someone did, the law always accuses. Jumping out of a window is a sure and certain corrective. God reveals his Divine Law in the hearts of ALL men. We can deny the truth of anything all day long and it will still remain and it will still eventually grind us down and kill us. Veith is talking here about the Law of God. Let´s be clear here.

    JP Sarte was a great example of this. He argued for all those post-modernist ideas. And he was very active in decrying the injustices happening in Algeria in his day. Man proposes. So? God still disposes!

    The Law does us. We don´t do the Law even if we think we do.

    This statement implies that there can be no true morality without faith in a god. Or maybe faith in Jesus. And that implies that God´s working out his Fatherly Goodness and Mercy on earth somehow depends on us. And it depends on us as “christians” according to our works. It won´t happen unless we are moral, faithful, diligent christians.

    Our Small Catechism say the exact contrary. It teaches us that ALL the 1st article and 4th petition Fatherly Goodness and Mercy on earth happens how? Even all the stuff that happens in a christian church happens how?

    without our merit or worthiness… indeed without our asking… without our prayer…. even for all the wicked (insert your name here).”
    http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php

    God is always faithful right in the middle of our UNfaith-fullness. See the story of the LawLESS Judge nagged by a concience for which love has died to see exactly how this works.

    So Dr Veith is relating that PHC asserts that THE difference is that the faculty and students at PHC are christian. That is is entire point at the end of the article. Maybe they just have more focus and discipline due to the nature of their students and faculty? This says that christians are more moral than pagans. Is this true?

    Maybe these things could be exactly duplicated by any pagan institution without any need for faith in a god or in Christ? Maybe they should be duplicated?

    But now to the point: maybe they never will be, because Vieth is saying PHC´s educational thesis is that none of these academic goods could happen in an institution who´s students and faculty believe in a god, no god or are not Christian?

    How does that thesis serve anyone but PHC? Is it true? That thesis is stated in this way:

    “And while the typical college culture is one of
    frat-house partying and (Christ is needed to stop this?)
    promiscuous hook-ups, (Christ is needed to stop this?) ”

    No need for Christ to fix this problem is there?
    and here…

    “PHC students comprise a
    counterculture that grows out of a
    love of learning, (Christ or a faith is needed for this?)
    moral integrity, (Christ or a faith is needed for this?)
    authentic Christian community (what IS this?).”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    fws, This is what I understood from Dr. Veith.

    1. PHC has great academics, quality education.

    2. PHC attracts well prepared students and meets the needs of very able students.

    3. PHC is a conservative Christian college with very good academics and like-minded student body and faculty.

    He is just trying to tell people that they don’t have to settle for worldview they don’t agree with being pushed on students in order for their talented high achieving students to get a great education.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    fws, This is what I understood from Dr. Veith.

    1. PHC has great academics, quality education.

    2. PHC attracts well prepared students and meets the needs of very able students.

    3. PHC is a conservative Christian college with very good academics and like-minded student body and faculty.

    He is just trying to tell people that they don’t have to settle for worldview they don’t agree with being pushed on students in order for their talented high achieving students to get a great education.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I did not make that bold.

    There is a ghost in the machine!
    :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I did not make that bold.

    There is a ghost in the machine!
    :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This says that christians are more moral than pagans. Is this true?”

    Is baptism regenerative?

    If it is, is it related to this idea?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “This says that christians are more moral than pagans. Is this true?”

    Is baptism regenerative?

    If it is, is it related to this idea?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    sg 27

    The bolding is my fault. I just put in a couple of stop the bolding html commands . Let´s see if those work!

    Now you are cooking sg! Baptism!

    So what does the small catechism say that Baptism “works/delivers-from/gives? This is regeneration . and it is also sanctification.
    Justification is spoken in two ways. It can mean to declare holy. It can also mean to make holy. Baptism does both of these.

    But Baptism is not the start of a process of holy making. we come up out of the water immediately and completely holy according to our new man sg.

    Then there is what Baptism “signifies”. there is what is the “sign-ificance” of Baptism here on earth in your everyday life.

    That part is what you do sg. And the Holy Spirit helps you here.

    It is not regeneration. It is the result of it.

    It is your living your life killing your Old Adam with what? Baptism? Regeneration?

    No. those things are alone about giving you Life eternal In Christ.

    You kill your Old Adam with the Law of God. and you do this waking up each day forgiven! In faith. In christ. In your baptism.

    This is the christian life that your Baptism pictures or sign-ifies or predicates of you will. It is the “sign-ificance of your baptismal life here on earth.

    This part will not work the forgiveness of your sins, deliver you from death or the power of the devil or give you eternal Life by placing your faith here in your baptismal life as some sort of spiritual transformation. It is not transformation . It is death. and it is faith in the middle of that death. It is mortification, which is latinate for “deathing”. Luther says “life is mortification. ” Now you know why!

    But it will serve others. That is why God wants your baptismal life to look like death and resurrection every day.

    I hope that helps!

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    sg 27

    The bolding is my fault. I just put in a couple of stop the bolding html commands . Let´s see if those work!

    Now you are cooking sg! Baptism!

    So what does the small catechism say that Baptism “works/delivers-from/gives? This is regeneration . and it is also sanctification.
    Justification is spoken in two ways. It can mean to declare holy. It can also mean to make holy. Baptism does both of these.

    But Baptism is not the start of a process of holy making. we come up out of the water immediately and completely holy according to our new man sg.

    Then there is what Baptism “signifies”. there is what is the “sign-ificance” of Baptism here on earth in your everyday life.

    That part is what you do sg. And the Holy Spirit helps you here.

    It is not regeneration. It is the result of it.

    It is your living your life killing your Old Adam with what? Baptism? Regeneration?

    No. those things are alone about giving you Life eternal In Christ.

    You kill your Old Adam with the Law of God. and you do this waking up each day forgiven! In faith. In christ. In your baptism.

    This is the christian life that your Baptism pictures or sign-ifies or predicates of you will. It is the “sign-ificance of your baptismal life here on earth.

    This part will not work the forgiveness of your sins, deliver you from death or the power of the devil or give you eternal Life by placing your faith here in your baptismal life as some sort of spiritual transformation. It is not transformation . It is death. and it is faith in the middle of that death. It is mortification, which is latinate for “deathing”. Luther says “life is mortification. ” Now you know why!

    But it will serve others. That is why God wants your baptismal life to look like death and resurrection every day.

    I hope that helps!

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    Standards are dropping in all North American Universities. People who are actually in the system are saying this from across the spectrum of all liberal arts disciplines. Too often the criticism is that a “Christian University” can not have the objectivity to provide for a truly open education when subjected to “real-wrold” scrutiny. This accusation is currently being levelled by CAUT at 4 major Canadian Christian Universities:
    http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2011/02/09/caut-accused-of-anti-religious-ideology/.
    Their fears are unfounded and are rather evidence of fear-mongering. What they really fear is that Christian University students may actually (horrors!) be more well educated! So they seek to remove CAUT membership. Congratulations to PHC: you’re doing what other great Christian universities are doing the world over: producing real thinkers.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    Standards are dropping in all North American Universities. People who are actually in the system are saying this from across the spectrum of all liberal arts disciplines. Too often the criticism is that a “Christian University” can not have the objectivity to provide for a truly open education when subjected to “real-wrold” scrutiny. This accusation is currently being levelled by CAUT at 4 major Canadian Christian Universities:
    http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2011/02/09/caut-accused-of-anti-religious-ideology/.
    Their fears are unfounded and are rather evidence of fear-mongering. What they really fear is that Christian University students may actually (horrors!) be more well educated! So they seek to remove CAUT membership. Congratulations to PHC: you’re doing what other great Christian universities are doing the world over: producing real thinkers.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    By “all NA universities” I meant “the majority of secular universities”.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    By “all NA universities” I meant “the majority of secular universities”.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    FWS, the way to turn off bold in HTML is like this: </b>

    So it would be: not-bold text here <b>bold text here</b> not-bold text here.

    For the record, you were doing <b />, which gums up the system for some reason, and is impossible to turn off unless an elf comes along and fixes it.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    FWS, the way to turn off bold in HTML is like this: </b>

    So it would be: not-bold text here <b>bold text here</b> not-bold text here.

    For the record, you were doing <b />, which gums up the system for some reason, and is impossible to turn off unless an elf comes along and fixes it.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    fws #28,

    That was a great explanation of what God does for us in Baptism!

    I know that is true…but I need to hear it over and over and over!

    Thanks for the reminder, fws!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    fws #28,

    That was a great explanation of what God does for us in Baptism!

    I know that is true…but I need to hear it over and over and over!

    Thanks for the reminder, fws!

  • Porcell

    I’m fairly sure that Ivy-league schools don’t participate in the ETS Proficiency Profile, due not to having anything to prove, rather that they well know and fear that schools like Patrick Henry College could well be producing more knowledgeable students. The Ivy schools are plagued with a lack of core curriculum and highly specialized major subject matter, often taught by graduate teaching assistants.

    Until the Sixties Harvard had a rigorous core curriculum that emphasized classic languages and curriculum. The school, also, had at least a semblance of teaching Christian character formation, though truth to be told this went progressively out the window beginning with “enlightenment” modernity. Patrick Henry College, Hillsdale, and Wheaton are in fact closer to the seventeenth Harvard style of education, except that courses and disputations aren’t conducted in Latin.

    If I had a life to live over again, I would make sure that my children would attend a Christian liberal arts college with a rigorous curriculum.

  • Porcell

    I’m fairly sure that Ivy-league schools don’t participate in the ETS Proficiency Profile, due not to having anything to prove, rather that they well know and fear that schools like Patrick Henry College could well be producing more knowledgeable students. The Ivy schools are plagued with a lack of core curriculum and highly specialized major subject matter, often taught by graduate teaching assistants.

    Until the Sixties Harvard had a rigorous core curriculum that emphasized classic languages and curriculum. The school, also, had at least a semblance of teaching Christian character formation, though truth to be told this went progressively out the window beginning with “enlightenment” modernity. Patrick Henry College, Hillsdale, and Wheaton are in fact closer to the seventeenth Harvard style of education, except that courses and disputations aren’t conducted in Latin.

    If I had a life to live over again, I would make sure that my children would attend a Christian liberal arts college with a rigorous curriculum.

  • Porcell

    Pardon me, in the above second paragraph it ought to have been “seventeenth century.

  • Porcell

    Pardon me, in the above second paragraph it ought to have been “seventeenth century.

  • DonS

    Porcell @ 33, I think you are spot on. These institutions have thrown off any kind of rigorous standards of right and wrong, and discarded any notion that western culture is advanced and enlightened or better in any way than other cultures. As a result, there is no objectivity in their curriculum, nor is there a rigor which is associated with trying to continue to advance and improve your culture by training up the next generation of bright leaders. PHC and other schools like it (Hillsdale and Grove City College come to mind) have this object and everything they do is for the purpose of furthering this specific goal — raising up a generation of conservative leaders that will work toward restoring our culture and its moral integrity.

    What would be interesting to me would be to see comparative test results, measuring the progress of identified students from their entrance to their exit from each school. The Ivy league schools, I suspect, are riding hard on the fact that they still attract the brightest, on average. But, I’m willing to bet that they do far less to advance their entering students than schools like PHC do.

    Another thing is that I wonder how long the Ivies will continue to attract the brightest. Most of them have moved toward a financial aid model wherein students from families making $60,000 or less, if they qualify for admission, get free tuition, , with a sliding scale of aid up to about $100,000 family income or so. No merit scholarships are offered at all, and families making over the maximum are pretty much forced into paying the $60,000 annual sticker cost for their students to attend. Many bright students I know have eliminated the Ivies from consideration because of these policies.

  • DonS

    Porcell @ 33, I think you are spot on. These institutions have thrown off any kind of rigorous standards of right and wrong, and discarded any notion that western culture is advanced and enlightened or better in any way than other cultures. As a result, there is no objectivity in their curriculum, nor is there a rigor which is associated with trying to continue to advance and improve your culture by training up the next generation of bright leaders. PHC and other schools like it (Hillsdale and Grove City College come to mind) have this object and everything they do is for the purpose of furthering this specific goal — raising up a generation of conservative leaders that will work toward restoring our culture and its moral integrity.

    What would be interesting to me would be to see comparative test results, measuring the progress of identified students from their entrance to their exit from each school. The Ivy league schools, I suspect, are riding hard on the fact that they still attract the brightest, on average. But, I’m willing to bet that they do far less to advance their entering students than schools like PHC do.

    Another thing is that I wonder how long the Ivies will continue to attract the brightest. Most of them have moved toward a financial aid model wherein students from families making $60,000 or less, if they qualify for admission, get free tuition, , with a sliding scale of aid up to about $100,000 family income or so. No merit scholarships are offered at all, and families making over the maximum are pretty much forced into paying the $60,000 annual sticker cost for their students to attend. Many bright students I know have eliminated the Ivies from consideration because of these policies.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    todd @ 31 thanks!

    steve m @ 32

    This baptismal understanding is the difference between us and others Steve. We hear the name of the Blessed and Most Holy Trinity all over our church service. it is our baptismal name. It is the name spoken that brings us to Christ when it is mingled with the sound of splashing water.

    We are saved by the Name of the Holy Trinity. If this is true, and it is, then how can we be saved by anything other than alone invisible faith alone in Christ?

    The Name of the Holy Trinity spoken in our baptism is great proof that we are saved by faith alone without works, and that the life of a christian is alone about works done in baptismal faith that are the same works any pagan could do. Our holiness is made complete in our baptism. therefore the christian life is not about our practicing holiness till we get it perfect. It is about death and resurrection.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    todd @ 31 thanks!

    steve m @ 32

    This baptismal understanding is the difference between us and others Steve. We hear the name of the Blessed and Most Holy Trinity all over our church service. it is our baptismal name. It is the name spoken that brings us to Christ when it is mingled with the sound of splashing water.

    We are saved by the Name of the Holy Trinity. If this is true, and it is, then how can we be saved by anything other than alone invisible faith alone in Christ?

    The Name of the Holy Trinity spoken in our baptism is great proof that we are saved by faith alone without works, and that the life of a christian is alone about works done in baptismal faith that are the same works any pagan could do. Our holiness is made complete in our baptism. therefore the christian life is not about our practicing holiness till we get it perfect. It is about death and resurrection.

  • Porcell

    Our holiness is made complete in our baptism.

    Dream on.

  • Porcell

    Our holiness is made complete in our baptism.

    Dream on.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    porcell @ 37

    this is true porcell. and it is an article of faith. we cannot see it.
    it is true in christ. being half holy is like being half pregnant. you are or you are not.

    but it is also true dear brother that all we can see is old adam and sin that poisons even our best efforts. this is why st paul says that the just live by faith alone.

    this is not a dream. It is what God tells us in his Word. Only faith can see this by listening to that Word. And when God speaks, what he says becomes what he says. “let their be light” there is light.

    “You ARE washed, you ARE sanctified … in Christ”. this is so ,really so because it is the word of that same God who said let there be light and it was so.

    Peter, you are as holy as you will ever be in christ in your baptism.

    and you will fight and mortify your pagan unbelieving old adam until you die with no respite.

    who will rescue you from this? Thanks be to God in Christ Jesus!
    Peter, you ARE washed, you ARE sanctified. How do you know that? You were baptised into the name if the most holy and blessed Trinity. That is how you know. by faith alone. in christ alone.

    all you can see and do argues against what you know in faith in your dear lord Jesus Peter. So what? trust Jesus and not what you can see.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    porcell @ 37

    this is true porcell. and it is an article of faith. we cannot see it.
    it is true in christ. being half holy is like being half pregnant. you are or you are not.

    but it is also true dear brother that all we can see is old adam and sin that poisons even our best efforts. this is why st paul says that the just live by faith alone.

    this is not a dream. It is what God tells us in his Word. Only faith can see this by listening to that Word. And when God speaks, what he says becomes what he says. “let their be light” there is light.

    “You ARE washed, you ARE sanctified … in Christ”. this is so ,really so because it is the word of that same God who said let there be light and it was so.

    Peter, you are as holy as you will ever be in christ in your baptism.

    and you will fight and mortify your pagan unbelieving old adam until you die with no respite.

    who will rescue you from this? Thanks be to God in Christ Jesus!
    Peter, you ARE washed, you ARE sanctified. How do you know that? You were baptised into the name if the most holy and blessed Trinity. That is how you know. by faith alone. in christ alone.

    all you can see and do argues against what you know in faith in your dear lord Jesus Peter. So what? trust Jesus and not what you can see.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m fairly sure that Ivy-league schools don’t participate in the ETS Proficiency Profile, due not to having anything to prove, rather that they well know and fear that schools like Patrick Henry College could well be producing more knowledgeable students.”

    I am skeptical. I looked up the SAT/ACT scores of the students of the better schools (Clemson, SUNY Binghamton, etc.) from the list participating in ETS Proficiency Profile to ACT/SAT scores of PHC students. PHC had higher scores especially on reading and writing, So, it is no surprise they did the best on the ETS PP. It would be surprising if they didn’t.

    Also, consider the purpose of the ETS PP. It is for institutions to use to evaluate their own effectiveness more than it is to compare themselves to other schools, although such a comparison does help them evaluate themselves. All institutions know the achievement level of entering students because students send them transcripts and SAT/ACT scores, but they don’t necessarily know their level when they leave, anyway, not all nice and neat in a standardized form. ETS PP allows the institutions to test studentscoming and going with the same standardized objective measure.

    The Ivy League and tier I schools don’t need an evaluation tool like that because the evaluation metric students use is their placement rate and the salaries of their graduates. University of Michigan at Ann Arbor doesn’t need to prove that its naval architects know something by taking the ETS PP because the fact that companies recruit them on campus and pay them well is a convincing indication of the quality of the program and its graduates.

    A fairly new school like PHC is still building its reputation. So, the ETS PP is an additional way PHC can call attention to the quality of its programs and graduates. It demonstrates that they really are not very similar to the other schools using ETS. No surprise, yet still necessary independent and objective confirmation of their success if they want to continue to attract top students. What really jumps out at me is the stunning ability of PHC to attract such high performing students. I am no expert, but it is hard to imagine new schools in general attracting such strong students, because those students can get into many very good programs and qualify for merit scholarships. Pretty impressive.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m fairly sure that Ivy-league schools don’t participate in the ETS Proficiency Profile, due not to having anything to prove, rather that they well know and fear that schools like Patrick Henry College could well be producing more knowledgeable students.”

    I am skeptical. I looked up the SAT/ACT scores of the students of the better schools (Clemson, SUNY Binghamton, etc.) from the list participating in ETS Proficiency Profile to ACT/SAT scores of PHC students. PHC had higher scores especially on reading and writing, So, it is no surprise they did the best on the ETS PP. It would be surprising if they didn’t.

    Also, consider the purpose of the ETS PP. It is for institutions to use to evaluate their own effectiveness more than it is to compare themselves to other schools, although such a comparison does help them evaluate themselves. All institutions know the achievement level of entering students because students send them transcripts and SAT/ACT scores, but they don’t necessarily know their level when they leave, anyway, not all nice and neat in a standardized form. ETS PP allows the institutions to test studentscoming and going with the same standardized objective measure.

    The Ivy League and tier I schools don’t need an evaluation tool like that because the evaluation metric students use is their placement rate and the salaries of their graduates. University of Michigan at Ann Arbor doesn’t need to prove that its naval architects know something by taking the ETS PP because the fact that companies recruit them on campus and pay them well is a convincing indication of the quality of the program and its graduates.

    A fairly new school like PHC is still building its reputation. So, the ETS PP is an additional way PHC can call attention to the quality of its programs and graduates. It demonstrates that they really are not very similar to the other schools using ETS. No surprise, yet still necessary independent and objective confirmation of their success if they want to continue to attract top students. What really jumps out at me is the stunning ability of PHC to attract such high performing students. I am no expert, but it is hard to imagine new schools in general attracting such strong students, because those students can get into many very good programs and qualify for merit scholarships. Pretty impressive.

  • Grace

    Sg – 39

    “Patrick Henry College (PHC) is a private, independent Protestant college that focuses on teaching classical liberal arts and government, located in Purcellville, Virginia, United States. The first college in the United States founded specifically for Christian home-schooled students, Patrick Henry is known for its conservative evangelical Christian focus. As of April 17, 2007, the college was accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, a national faith-related accrediting organization recognized by the Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.

    The school was founded with the help of the Home School Legal Defense Association, and now serves as the headquarters for the organization, with which it is still closely connected.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry_College

    The fact that PHC was “The first college in the United States founded specifically for Christian home-schooled students,” is significant.

  • Grace

    Sg – 39

    “Patrick Henry College (PHC) is a private, independent Protestant college that focuses on teaching classical liberal arts and government, located in Purcellville, Virginia, United States. The first college in the United States founded specifically for Christian home-schooled students, Patrick Henry is known for its conservative evangelical Christian focus. As of April 17, 2007, the college was accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, a national faith-related accrediting organization recognized by the Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.

    The school was founded with the help of the Home School Legal Defense Association, and now serves as the headquarters for the organization, with which it is still closely connected.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry_College

    The fact that PHC was “The first college in the United States founded specifically for Christian home-schooled students,” is significant.

  • Grace

    Porcell – 37 – you are right!

    13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    (“obedient children” )

    15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

    16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

    17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
    1 Peter 1

    (“pass the time of your sojourning here in fear”)

    The book of James points to something a few people discard, but none the less it is God’s Word:

    What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:17

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:18

    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20

    Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:22

    Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    James 2:24

    Where is “holiness” ? – - – if there is faith, but nothing in that faith that bringeth forth works, it is dead no matter how much one thinks baptism can deny “works” – we aren’t saved by our “works” but through our “works” our faith is made known to all who witness it.

  • Grace

    Porcell – 37 – you are right!

    13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    (“obedient children” )

    15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

    16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

    17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
    1 Peter 1

    (“pass the time of your sojourning here in fear”)

    The book of James points to something a few people discard, but none the less it is God’s Word:

    What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:17

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:18

    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20

    Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:22

    Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    James 2:24

    Where is “holiness” ? – - – if there is faith, but nothing in that faith that bringeth forth works, it is dead no matter how much one thinks baptism can deny “works” – we aren’t saved by our “works” but through our “works” our faith is made known to all who witness it.

  • Grace

    Here you have it, right from the Word of God –

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

  • Grace

    Here you have it, right from the Word of God –

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 42

    check out the greek on that grace. the better translation is this….

    “so as the body without breath is dead, so faith withhout works is dead also.”

    So this says that faith is to the body as works are to breathing.
    If you are noticing or laboring or working hard at breathing, what does that say about your breathing?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    grace @ 42

    check out the greek on that grace. the better translation is this….

    “so as the body without breath is dead, so faith withhout works is dead also.”

    So this says that faith is to the body as works are to breathing.
    If you are noticing or laboring or working hard at breathing, what does that say about your breathing?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace @40

    “The fact that PHC was “The first college in the United States founded specifically for Christian home-schooled students,” is significant.”

    Yeah, I agree, but I don’t see the connection to my comments @39.

    Notice also in the quote that PHC is nationally accredited. Most colleges and universities are regionally accredited.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation

    Like I said, it is stunning to see the students PHC can attract.

    PHC seems pretty savvy in finding ways to demonstrate that it is in fact a rising star. If it can continue to attract an increasing number of good students, it should continue to rise in prominence.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace @40

    “The fact that PHC was “The first college in the United States founded specifically for Christian home-schooled students,” is significant.”

    Yeah, I agree, but I don’t see the connection to my comments @39.

    Notice also in the quote that PHC is nationally accredited. Most colleges and universities are regionally accredited.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation

    Like I said, it is stunning to see the students PHC can attract.

    PHC seems pretty savvy in finding ways to demonstrate that it is in fact a rising star. If it can continue to attract an increasing number of good students, it should continue to rise in prominence.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    fws,

    There will always be those who despise Baptism. For them, it is only water. Lord have mercy on them.

    The Lord commanded that we do it (Baptize)…so He is there, in it. He (God) Baptizes. Our Lord isn’t into empty religious ritual.

    It truly amazes me how Christians can say that God lives in their hearts, but yet they deny that He could actually be present in a bowl of water accompanied by His Word of promise.

    Mind boggling.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    fws,

    There will always be those who despise Baptism. For them, it is only water. Lord have mercy on them.

    The Lord commanded that we do it (Baptize)…so He is there, in it. He (God) Baptizes. Our Lord isn’t into empty religious ritual.

    It truly amazes me how Christians can say that God lives in their hearts, but yet they deny that He could actually be present in a bowl of water accompanied by His Word of promise.

    Mind boggling.

  • Grace

    fws – 43

    The essence of this passage is “faith” and “works” – having faith without works is dead as well. Of course when one dies, the spirit leaves the body and the body is dead – – the point being faith without works is dead – a great many people don’t like to think of “works” as a Believer.

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

    Faith – Strongs Greek – pistis – pis’-tis

    persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:–assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

    Works – Strongs Greek – ergon – er’-gon

    by implication, an act:–deed, doing, labour, work.

  • Grace

    fws – 43

    The essence of this passage is “faith” and “works” – having faith without works is dead as well. Of course when one dies, the spirit leaves the body and the body is dead – – the point being faith without works is dead – a great many people don’t like to think of “works” as a Believer.

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

    Faith – Strongs Greek – pistis – pis’-tis

    persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:–assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

    Works – Strongs Greek – ergon – er’-gon

    by implication, an act:–deed, doing, labour, work.

  • Porcell

    sg: The Ivy League and tier I schools don’t need an evaluation tool like that because the evaluation metric students use is their placement rate and the salaries of their graduates.

    Placement rates and salaries would hardly be an effective evaluation tool for any college. These merely indicate the reputation of the school. The Ivy League schools would do well to use the ETSPP, though, again, I’m fairly sure these schools don’t wish to run the risk of being bettered by the likes of Patrick Henry College.

    FWS, your argument that our holiness is made complete by baptism is essentially an antinomian heresy that ignores our obligation to at least attempt to conform to moral law. Stalin and Hitler were baptized Christians. Are you claiming that they are completely holy.

    Also, why does the Lutheran Church have catechisms?

  • Porcell

    sg: The Ivy League and tier I schools don’t need an evaluation tool like that because the evaluation metric students use is their placement rate and the salaries of their graduates.

    Placement rates and salaries would hardly be an effective evaluation tool for any college. These merely indicate the reputation of the school. The Ivy League schools would do well to use the ETSPP, though, again, I’m fairly sure these schools don’t wish to run the risk of being bettered by the likes of Patrick Henry College.

    FWS, your argument that our holiness is made complete by baptism is essentially an antinomian heresy that ignores our obligation to at least attempt to conform to moral law. Stalin and Hitler were baptized Christians. Are you claiming that they are completely holy.

    Also, why does the Lutheran Church have catechisms?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Placement rates and salaries would hardly be an effective evaluation tool for any college.”

    Uh, you’re joking. Right?

    “These merely indicate the reputation of the school.”

    Okay, but that reputation was earned by their competent graduates.

    Plenty of students are motivated to attend schools whose graduates are quickly hired and paid well.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Placement rates and salaries would hardly be an effective evaluation tool for any college.”

    Uh, you’re joking. Right?

    “These merely indicate the reputation of the school.”

    Okay, but that reputation was earned by their competent graduates.

    Plenty of students are motivated to attend schools whose graduates are quickly hired and paid well.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Also, why does the Lutheran Church have catechisms?

    “Luther’s Preface to the Small Catechism

    Martin Luther to All Faithful and Godly Pastors and Preachers:

    Grace, Mercy, and Peace in Jesus Christ, our Lord.

    The deplorable, miserable condition which I discovered lately when I, too, was a visitor, has forced and urged me to prepare [publish] this Catechism, or Christian doctrine, in this small, plain, simple form. Mercy! Good God! what manifold misery I beheld! The common people, especially in the villages, have no knowledge whatever of Christian doctrine, and, alas! many pastors are altogether incapable and incompetent to teach [so much so, that one is ashamed to speak of it]. Nevertheless, all maintain that they are Christians, have been baptized and receive the [common] holy Sacraments. Yet they [do not understand and] cannot [even] recite either the Lord’s Prayer, or the Creed, or the Ten Commandments; they live like dumb brutes and irrational hogs; and yet, now that the Gospel has come, they have nicely learned to abuse all liberty like experts.”

    More at http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Also, why does the Lutheran Church have catechisms?

    “Luther’s Preface to the Small Catechism

    Martin Luther to All Faithful and Godly Pastors and Preachers:

    Grace, Mercy, and Peace in Jesus Christ, our Lord.

    The deplorable, miserable condition which I discovered lately when I, too, was a visitor, has forced and urged me to prepare [publish] this Catechism, or Christian doctrine, in this small, plain, simple form. Mercy! Good God! what manifold misery I beheld! The common people, especially in the villages, have no knowledge whatever of Christian doctrine, and, alas! many pastors are altogether incapable and incompetent to teach [so much so, that one is ashamed to speak of it]. Nevertheless, all maintain that they are Christians, have been baptized and receive the [common] holy Sacraments. Yet they [do not understand and] cannot [even] recite either the Lord’s Prayer, or the Creed, or the Ten Commandments; they live like dumb brutes and irrational hogs; and yet, now that the Gospel has come, they have nicely learned to abuse all liberty like experts.”

    More at http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php

  • DonS

    sg @ 48: But again, as I said @ 35, one wonders how much of that excellent placement rate and the high starting salaries is due to the high quality of entering students, based on reputation of the school, rather than value added by the school. My suspicion is that these schools are riding past reputation pretty hard at this point, and it’s only a matter of time before students realize that they are not worth their cost and there are better values and experiences available. Especially if you were raised in a conservative Christian family.

  • DonS

    sg @ 48: But again, as I said @ 35, one wonders how much of that excellent placement rate and the high starting salaries is due to the high quality of entering students, based on reputation of the school, rather than value added by the school. My suspicion is that these schools are riding past reputation pretty hard at this point, and it’s only a matter of time before students realize that they are not worth their cost and there are better values and experiences available. Especially if you were raised in a conservative Christian family.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS, I totally agree. That is why attracting the best students is essential in a movement/institution to provide top quality education in a Christian setting to talented high-achieving Christian students.

    There are many good Christian schools that do a good job, but they don’t get many top students because they don’t have a reputation. They don’t have a reputation because they took in too many low performing students. There are enough Christian schools to serve all the average students. PHC aims (apparently) to serve the ones at the top. Ironically it was the top students who were underserved. They could go to a top college and be forced to support while at once being oppressed by ideology they oppose, or they could go to a Christian college and not have any employers beating a path to employ them. In a way, it is like that guy wrestler. He could wrestle under unacceptable conditions, or he could forfeit. It was a lose-lose situation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    DonS, I totally agree. That is why attracting the best students is essential in a movement/institution to provide top quality education in a Christian setting to talented high-achieving Christian students.

    There are many good Christian schools that do a good job, but they don’t get many top students because they don’t have a reputation. They don’t have a reputation because they took in too many low performing students. There are enough Christian schools to serve all the average students. PHC aims (apparently) to serve the ones at the top. Ironically it was the top students who were underserved. They could go to a top college and be forced to support while at once being oppressed by ideology they oppose, or they could go to a Christian college and not have any employers beating a path to employ them. In a way, it is like that guy wrestler. He could wrestle under unacceptable conditions, or he could forfeit. It was a lose-lose situation.

  • Porcell

    sg, one learns when making careful decisions about hiring people that the reputation of the college they attended is among the minor factors. Most hardheaded businessmen are familiar with swell-headed Ivy League characters.

    Jack Welch, a U. Mass. graduate, and great GE leader, far outpaced his Ivy League competition. A biographer of Welch whom I read attributed his quality of mind and character mostly to his strong
    Irish mother and being a fiercely competitive athlete. Our greatest presidents, Lincoln and Washington, didn’t graduate from high school.

  • Porcell

    sg, one learns when making careful decisions about hiring people that the reputation of the college they attended is among the minor factors. Most hardheaded businessmen are familiar with swell-headed Ivy League characters.

    Jack Welch, a U. Mass. graduate, and great GE leader, far outpaced his Ivy League competition. A biographer of Welch whom I read attributed his quality of mind and character mostly to his strong
    Irish mother and being a fiercely competitive athlete. Our greatest presidents, Lincoln and Washington, didn’t graduate from high school.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Grace #46

    You’d better get busy, Grace…you have a lot of work to do!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Grace #46

    You’d better get busy, Grace…you have a lot of work to do!

  • Porcell

    Steve,at 53, do not we all?

    FWS’s antinomian fluff is a snare.

  • Porcell

    Steve,at 53, do not we all?

    FWS’s antinomian fluff is a snare.

  • DonS

    Well said, SG. My daughter and son-in-law both graduated from PHC, and I can assure you that college leadership well understands the need to attract top-notch students to prepare them for the national leadership roles it has in mind for them. Fortunately, the home schooling community is preparing a great many such students. What a difference it makes as a young child to be taught by folks who love you more than anyone else in the world, and are honoring their calling from God to parent their children in every sense of the word.

    Porcell, I also agree with you. As I’ve told my own kids, your education credentials really only matter for your first job. After that, it’s what you’ve done since college.

  • DonS

    Well said, SG. My daughter and son-in-law both graduated from PHC, and I can assure you that college leadership well understands the need to attract top-notch students to prepare them for the national leadership roles it has in mind for them. Fortunately, the home schooling community is preparing a great many such students. What a difference it makes as a young child to be taught by folks who love you more than anyone else in the world, and are honoring their calling from God to parent their children in every sense of the word.

    Porcell, I also agree with you. As I’ve told my own kids, your education credentials really only matter for your first job. After that, it’s what you’ve done since college.

  • Grace

    Porcell – 52

    Your entire post is proven over and over again to be true.

    Some of the most successful men who married into my family went to universities that are counted as average. These men brought with them strong discipline, learned from their parents from childhood – that being a strong incentive to ‘work’ and work hard in their early teens, then off to college – As you stated “fiercely competitive athlete” …. however I add, fiercely competitive in every area of their lives, and a willingness to observe and learn along the way.

    I used to believe that only top colleges along with the prestige of those attending all the noteworthy institutions .. résumés included, were superior – but found too often that their performance didn’t match what one would expect. That would include medicine as well.

    Gifted people, are just that, they have abilities that far outshine those who have had the time, money and opportunities to attend the very best teaching institutions…… but instead, worked, when others were studying after school as teens, they were the ones who worked during the summer, while others vacationed – the lessons learned were valuable in building character, competitive spirit, and work ethics. Some things cannot be learned or achieved in school, they are learned at home and in the market place.

  • Grace

    Porcell – 52

    Your entire post is proven over and over again to be true.

    Some of the most successful men who married into my family went to universities that are counted as average. These men brought with them strong discipline, learned from their parents from childhood – that being a strong incentive to ‘work’ and work hard in their early teens, then off to college – As you stated “fiercely competitive athlete” …. however I add, fiercely competitive in every area of their lives, and a willingness to observe and learn along the way.

    I used to believe that only top colleges along with the prestige of those attending all the noteworthy institutions .. résumés included, were superior – but found too often that their performance didn’t match what one would expect. That would include medicine as well.

    Gifted people, are just that, they have abilities that far outshine those who have had the time, money and opportunities to attend the very best teaching institutions…… but instead, worked, when others were studying after school as teens, they were the ones who worked during the summer, while others vacationed – the lessons learned were valuable in building character, competitive spirit, and work ethics. Some things cannot be learned or achieved in school, they are learned at home and in the market place.

  • Grace

    Steve Martin – 53

    “You’d better get busy, Grace…you have a lot of work to do!”

    I’m very “busy” – everyone has a lot of work to do, that includes you my friend.

  • Grace

    Steve Martin – 53

    “You’d better get busy, Grace…you have a lot of work to do!”

    I’m very “busy” – everyone has a lot of work to do, that includes you my friend.

  • sg

    “Gifted people, are just that, they have abilities that far outshine those who have had the time, money and opportunities to attend the very best teaching institutions…”

    The best institutions give scholarships to top performers who can’t afford to go. That is one of the ways they keep their standards high. They give preference to the children of their graduates to maintain a steady stream of folks from high achieving families. They aren’t at the top for no reason. They are very shrewd.

  • sg

    “Gifted people, are just that, they have abilities that far outshine those who have had the time, money and opportunities to attend the very best teaching institutions…”

    The best institutions give scholarships to top performers who can’t afford to go. That is one of the ways they keep their standards high. They give preference to the children of their graduates to maintain a steady stream of folks from high achieving families. They aren’t at the top for no reason. They are very shrewd.

  • Grace

    Sg – 58

    “‘The best institutions give scholarships to top performers who can’t afford to go. That is one of the ways they keep their standards high. They give preference to the children of their graduates to maintain a steady stream of folks from high achieving families. They aren’t at the top for no reason. They are very shrewd.”

    Sg, …. everyone knows that! It’s not a matter of “afford to go” there are other things which measure into the equation. It’s not always a lack of money, keeping individuals from attending noteworthy institutions, certainly you must know this.

  • Grace

    Sg – 58

    “‘The best institutions give scholarships to top performers who can’t afford to go. That is one of the ways they keep their standards high. They give preference to the children of their graduates to maintain a steady stream of folks from high achieving families. They aren’t at the top for no reason. They are very shrewd.”

    Sg, …. everyone knows that! It’s not a matter of “afford to go” there are other things which measure into the equation. It’s not always a lack of money, keeping individuals from attending noteworthy institutions, certainly you must know this.

  • sg

    Grace, my point is that the top institutions are quite adept at attracting the gifted folks. That’s why most of them end up there.

  • sg

    Grace, my point is that the top institutions are quite adept at attracting the gifted folks. That’s why most of them end up there.

  • sg

    “one learns when making careful decisions about hiring people that the reputation of the college they attended is among the minor factors. Most hardheaded businessmen are familiar with swell-headed Ivy League characters.”

    Okay, plausible. What about the HR dept. who get first shot at the résumés? I mean a candidate has to get an interview before he gets a job. And before he gets and interview, his résumé is often screened by some paper shuffler in HR. Just sayin’

  • sg

    “one learns when making careful decisions about hiring people that the reputation of the college they attended is among the minor factors. Most hardheaded businessmen are familiar with swell-headed Ivy League characters.”

    Okay, plausible. What about the HR dept. who get first shot at the résumés? I mean a candidate has to get an interview before he gets a job. And before he gets and interview, his résumé is often screened by some paper shuffler in HR. Just sayin’

  • Porcell

    sg, your assumption that top institutions are adept at attracting the gifted folks assumes that such baubles as SAT scores and academic rank in class are indicative of truly gifted folk. The truth is that the largely unmeasurable qualities of character and faith in the long run determine the true quality of any person.

  • Porcell

    sg, your assumption that top institutions are adept at attracting the gifted folks assumes that such baubles as SAT scores and academic rank in class are indicative of truly gifted folk. The truth is that the largely unmeasurable qualities of character and faith in the long run determine the true quality of any person.

  • Grace

    Sg – 60 – “Grace, my point is that the top institutions are quite adept at attracting the gifted folks. That’s why most of them end up there.”

    Your point wasn’t missed, but it isn’t accurate – those who are gifted are not always in a position to accept scholarships for a number of reasons. Money is often times not the reason WHY people choose to go to a different university, other than those who have noteworthy reputations.

  • Grace

    Sg – 60 – “Grace, my point is that the top institutions are quite adept at attracting the gifted folks. That’s why most of them end up there.”

    Your point wasn’t missed, but it isn’t accurate – those who are gifted are not always in a position to accept scholarships for a number of reasons. Money is often times not the reason WHY people choose to go to a different university, other than those who have noteworthy reputations.

  • DonS

    SG @ 58:

    The best institutions give scholarships to top performers who can’t afford to go. That is one of the ways they keep their standards high. They give preference to the children of their graduates to maintain a steady stream of folks from high achieving families. They aren’t at the top for no reason. They are very shrewd.

    But, as I pointed out @ 35, this is exactly what the Ivies and other elite schools are NOT doing any more. They don’t give merit scholarships — only need-based ones which exclude families making over about $100,000 per year. See this article from the WSJ a few years ago: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114549432060630668.html as evidence for my point.

    A family making $125,000 per year is not in a position to pay $60,000 for school. So, they are choosing, more and more often, to eschew the Ivies in favor of other school options.

    This will ultimately be the undoing of these elite institutions.

  • DonS

    SG @ 58:

    The best institutions give scholarships to top performers who can’t afford to go. That is one of the ways they keep their standards high. They give preference to the children of their graduates to maintain a steady stream of folks from high achieving families. They aren’t at the top for no reason. They are very shrewd.

    But, as I pointed out @ 35, this is exactly what the Ivies and other elite schools are NOT doing any more. They don’t give merit scholarships — only need-based ones which exclude families making over about $100,000 per year. See this article from the WSJ a few years ago: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114549432060630668.html as evidence for my point.

    A family making $125,000 per year is not in a position to pay $60,000 for school. So, they are choosing, more and more often, to eschew the Ivies in favor of other school options.

    This will ultimately be the undoing of these elite institutions.

  • sg

    “The truth is that the largely unmeasurable qualities of character and faith in the long run determine the true quality of any person.”

    Yeah, I wasn’t addressing the true quality of people, just their academic achievement/ability.

    “Your point wasn’t missed, but it isn’t accurate”

    Yes, it is. Most of the top students end up in selective schools and programs.

    “– those who are gifted are not always in a position to accept scholarships for a number of reasons.”

    True.

    “Money is often times not the reason WHY people choose to go to a different university, other than those who have noteworthy reputations.”

    Plausible.

  • sg

    “The truth is that the largely unmeasurable qualities of character and faith in the long run determine the true quality of any person.”

    Yeah, I wasn’t addressing the true quality of people, just their academic achievement/ability.

    “Your point wasn’t missed, but it isn’t accurate”

    Yes, it is. Most of the top students end up in selective schools and programs.

    “– those who are gifted are not always in a position to accept scholarships for a number of reasons.”

    True.

    “Money is often times not the reason WHY people choose to go to a different university, other than those who have noteworthy reputations.”

    Plausible.

  • sg

    DonS, I get your point that middle class students that are accepted at elite colleges cannot afford to go. That is how they want it. For the credential to be worth something, there has to be a limited supply. However, virtually all of the folks in the school are top performers and there are other top schools for them to attend. So, they aren’t totally shut out of the top. It’s not like a choice between Harvard or Kansas State. The top students can get into someplace that is still very competitive and can get some tuition deals.a

  • sg

    DonS, I get your point that middle class students that are accepted at elite colleges cannot afford to go. That is how they want it. For the credential to be worth something, there has to be a limited supply. However, virtually all of the folks in the school are top performers and there are other top schools for them to attend. So, they aren’t totally shut out of the top. It’s not like a choice between Harvard or Kansas State. The top students can get into someplace that is still very competitive and can get some tuition deals.a

  • DonS

    SG, that’s not the point. The point is that middle and lower class people can go for free (families making $60,000 and under). That’s not limiting the supply — its changing the make-up of your institution to exclude the students from families that are the engine of success in the U.S.

  • DonS

    SG, that’s not the point. The point is that middle and lower class people can go for free (families making $60,000 and under). That’s not limiting the supply — its changing the make-up of your institution to exclude the students from families that are the engine of success in the U.S.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Grace #57,

    Sorry, my friend. I have NO work that I have to do. I’m saved by grace.

    It is those who believe that they MUST work, who will HAVE TO work.

    We will all do what we will do. But my Lord has done all that is needful for me.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Grace #57,

    Sorry, my friend. I have NO work that I have to do. I’m saved by grace.

    It is those who believe that they MUST work, who will HAVE TO work.

    We will all do what we will do. But my Lord has done all that is needful for me.

  • Grace

    68 Steve Martin

    “Sorry, my friend. I have NO work that I have to do. I’m saved by grace. “

    Well then – you must ignore James 2 -

  • Grace

    68 Steve Martin

    “Sorry, my friend. I have NO work that I have to do. I’m saved by grace. “

    Well then – you must ignore James 2 -

  • Grace

    sg – 61

    “Okay, plausible. What about the HR dept. who get first shot at the résumés? I mean a candidate has to get an interview before he gets a job. And before he gets and interview, his résumé is often screened by some paper shuffler in HR. Just sayin’ “

    You couldn’t be more wrong. Most educated, clever individuals, seeking employment for a top position, address their letter and résumé to the president or CEO of the corporation or business, their assistants read the résumé. The top position résumés rarely go through human resources as you claim, and if by chance they do, I can guarantee you that top companies don’t have people who are so called “paper shufflers” involved with such résumés, they have employed top notch people who are educated as well.

    Just so you understand, top positions are often sent through top channels to those individuals who know of, or are in a position to transfer the position requirements ONLY to those who would be qualified. Often times the positions that are being offered are not advertised in any way – that is because the person they are going to replace isn’t aware they are on their way out, for whatever reason.

  • Grace

    sg – 61

    “Okay, plausible. What about the HR dept. who get first shot at the résumés? I mean a candidate has to get an interview before he gets a job. And before he gets and interview, his résumé is often screened by some paper shuffler in HR. Just sayin’ “

    You couldn’t be more wrong. Most educated, clever individuals, seeking employment for a top position, address their letter and résumé to the president or CEO of the corporation or business, their assistants read the résumé. The top position résumés rarely go through human resources as you claim, and if by chance they do, I can guarantee you that top companies don’t have people who are so called “paper shufflers” involved with such résumés, they have employed top notch people who are educated as well.

    Just so you understand, top positions are often sent through top channels to those individuals who know of, or are in a position to transfer the position requirements ONLY to those who would be qualified. Often times the positions that are being offered are not advertised in any way – that is because the person they are going to replace isn’t aware they are on their way out, for whatever reason.

  • WebMonk

    I would be interested in seeing an entire test. It just occurred to me that PHC has introductory-level classes in biology and physics for their science classes. (they also have a class that is a philosophy of science-type course, but it didn’t have any significant science content, focusing mostly on the philosophy side of things)

    Having just Biology and Physics for non-majors, the test must not be looking for knowledge of the subject. When I was familiar with the physics classes (haven’t checked for two years now), they were basically the same as AP physics in high school – very introductory level.

    Ditto for the Math courses – PHC has geometry and statistics, and that’s all. No calculus, no linear algebra, no nothing but those two classes.

    Does anyone have a copy of an old ETS test? I looked for a bit and couldn’t find one. I’d be really interested to see what sort of proficiency the test is looking at if PHC students with geometry and statistics are coming in ahead (on average) of schools with full math departments. (ditto for sciences)

    Maybe the results of non-math majors in other schools just outweigh the results of the math majors in those schools, and the PHC kids managed to have a higher average.

    Five or six years ago they at least had more than a single geometry class and a single statistics class for math. (they also had an algebra & trig class which was one of the more complained-about classes) And on the sciences side of things they had a molecular nutrition class, or something like that. Ever since they had their split, they’ve dropped everything science-related beyond the basics necessary for TRACS accreditation.

  • WebMonk

    I would be interested in seeing an entire test. It just occurred to me that PHC has introductory-level classes in biology and physics for their science classes. (they also have a class that is a philosophy of science-type course, but it didn’t have any significant science content, focusing mostly on the philosophy side of things)

    Having just Biology and Physics for non-majors, the test must not be looking for knowledge of the subject. When I was familiar with the physics classes (haven’t checked for two years now), they were basically the same as AP physics in high school – very introductory level.

    Ditto for the Math courses – PHC has geometry and statistics, and that’s all. No calculus, no linear algebra, no nothing but those two classes.

    Does anyone have a copy of an old ETS test? I looked for a bit and couldn’t find one. I’d be really interested to see what sort of proficiency the test is looking at if PHC students with geometry and statistics are coming in ahead (on average) of schools with full math departments. (ditto for sciences)

    Maybe the results of non-math majors in other schools just outweigh the results of the math majors in those schools, and the PHC kids managed to have a higher average.

    Five or six years ago they at least had more than a single geometry class and a single statistics class for math. (they also had an algebra & trig class which was one of the more complained-about classes) And on the sciences side of things they had a molecular nutrition class, or something like that. Ever since they had their split, they’ve dropped everything science-related beyond the basics necessary for TRACS accreditation.

  • Grace

    sg – 65 “Plausible.”

    No sg, it is the truth. You seem to have the idea that everyone is interested in noteworthy universities – they aren’t, – there is far more to consider when choosing a university than it’s Ivy name.

    Employers today don’t look first to see what school the prospective employee attended. They look at what the individual did in college, after being there a year or two, … how they spent their leisure and vacation time – were they part of any charitable organizations, if so, what did they do, what were their other achievements outside the college campus. What do they bring to the table besides their ranking, school affiliation and often inflated importance.

    Positions that carry with it great opportunity and advantage, also require the prospective employee to be well rounded, with interests beyond their career.

  • Grace

    sg – 65 “Plausible.”

    No sg, it is the truth. You seem to have the idea that everyone is interested in noteworthy universities – they aren’t, – there is far more to consider when choosing a university than it’s Ivy name.

    Employers today don’t look first to see what school the prospective employee attended. They look at what the individual did in college, after being there a year or two, … how they spent their leisure and vacation time – were they part of any charitable organizations, if so, what did they do, what were their other achievements outside the college campus. What do they bring to the table besides their ranking, school affiliation and often inflated importance.

    Positions that carry with it great opportunity and advantage, also require the prospective employee to be well rounded, with interests beyond their career.

  • Porcell

    WebMonk, at 74, while rigorous, high-level science and math courses are worthy, they are limited at best to the physicality of things, however much philosophical materialists like Dawkins pretend otherwise. One of the illusions of modernity is that contemporary “scientific” subjects are the ne plus ultra of knowledge.

    Careful study of theology, philosophy, literature, and history are actually more important than theoretical or empirical science, as they deal with broader topics. While science and technology are valuable, they actually in the broad scale of things are of limited value.

    Of all subjects, theology is the queen of the sciences, something that the Patrick Henry College apparently get more of than most college students. This used to be the case in the salad days of Harvard.

    The fact is that PHS ranks first in every category of Natural Sciences among schools that take the ETSPP exam. Knowing that ETS is a first class exam outfit, one assumes that PHS students are hardly illiterate in modern science. You speculate that the ETS exam is deficient in science, though you haven’t advanced an iota of proof to the contrary.

  • Porcell

    WebMonk, at 74, while rigorous, high-level science and math courses are worthy, they are limited at best to the physicality of things, however much philosophical materialists like Dawkins pretend otherwise. One of the illusions of modernity is that contemporary “scientific” subjects are the ne plus ultra of knowledge.

    Careful study of theology, philosophy, literature, and history are actually more important than theoretical or empirical science, as they deal with broader topics. While science and technology are valuable, they actually in the broad scale of things are of limited value.

    Of all subjects, theology is the queen of the sciences, something that the Patrick Henry College apparently get more of than most college students. This used to be the case in the salad days of Harvard.

    The fact is that PHS ranks first in every category of Natural Sciences among schools that take the ETSPP exam. Knowing that ETS is a first class exam outfit, one assumes that PHS students are hardly illiterate in modern science. You speculate that the ETS exam is deficient in science, though you haven’t advanced an iota of proof to the contrary.

  • Porcell

    Pardon me, in the last para. above it ought to have beenPHC.

  • Porcell

    Pardon me, in the last para. above it ought to have beenPHC.

  • Porcell

    Pardon again me again. I the second para above it ought to have been Careful study of theology, philosophy, literature, and history is

    And in the last para. …one assumes that PHS students is

  • Porcell

    Pardon again me again. I the second para above it ought to have been Careful study of theology, philosophy, literature, and history is

    And in the last para. …one assumes that PHS students is

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace @ 70

    I was talking about entry level positions for students just graduating, not high level stuff. This is when students are just getting ready to graduate and recruiters come to campus. Obviously some schools get more and better recruiters. If no one offers a senior a job there, he will have to apply on his own and he won’t be applying for a top position. He will just be sending it to HR.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace @ 70

    I was talking about entry level positions for students just graduating, not high level stuff. This is when students are just getting ready to graduate and recruiters come to campus. Obviously some schools get more and better recruiters. If no one offers a senior a job there, he will have to apply on his own and he won’t be applying for a top position. He will just be sending it to HR.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” that’s not the point. The point is that middle and lower class people can go for free (families making $60,000 and under). That’s not limiting the supply — its changing the make-up of your institution to exclude the students from families that are the engine of success in the U.S.”

    Hey, DonS, I agree with you. They know that strong students from the middle class are a true threat to the elite. Those from the lower classes, not so much. Very shrewd.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” that’s not the point. The point is that middle and lower class people can go for free (families making $60,000 and under). That’s not limiting the supply — its changing the make-up of your institution to exclude the students from families that are the engine of success in the U.S.”

    Hey, DonS, I agree with you. They know that strong students from the middle class are a true threat to the elite. Those from the lower classes, not so much. Very shrewd.

  • DonS

    Yes, SG. l That might be the thinking — to try to educate those likely to be sympathetic to the elitist point of view. But, it won’t work, if the intention is to maintain the ivies as first tier institutions. Ultimately, the smart second tier institutions are taking advantage of this foolishness and offering more merit scholarships to snag these middle class kids who formerly would have been excellent ivy candidates. Pretty soon, they will be the first tier schools.

    If your objective is primarily to maintain your status as a first tier school, you should be offering more merit scholarships, not eliminating them. But, that reflects the utter lack of common sense in the liberal elite world these days.

  • DonS

    Yes, SG. l That might be the thinking — to try to educate those likely to be sympathetic to the elitist point of view. But, it won’t work, if the intention is to maintain the ivies as first tier institutions. Ultimately, the smart second tier institutions are taking advantage of this foolishness and offering more merit scholarships to snag these middle class kids who formerly would have been excellent ivy candidates. Pretty soon, they will be the first tier schools.

    If your objective is primarily to maintain your status as a first tier school, you should be offering more merit scholarships, not eliminating them. But, that reflects the utter lack of common sense in the liberal elite world these days.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Positions that carry with it great opportunity and advantage, also require the prospective employee to be well rounded, with interests beyond their career.”

    Yeah, right. ‘Cuz if they need a Chem. engineer to run a plastics plant, they’re gonna need to feel comfortable with his hobbies. Does he volunteer? Does he fish? maybe yoga? or la crosse?

    Hilarious.

    Companies want competence and diligence. The are worried about compliance issues and lost time accidents, law suits, and the bottom line for crying out loud. All this frou frou stuff is silly. Do you think they care about the hobbies and interests of their H1B engineers? Hey, does he play cricket?

    Companies care a lot more about where a candidate went to school than their other interests.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Positions that carry with it great opportunity and advantage, also require the prospective employee to be well rounded, with interests beyond their career.”

    Yeah, right. ‘Cuz if they need a Chem. engineer to run a plastics plant, they’re gonna need to feel comfortable with his hobbies. Does he volunteer? Does he fish? maybe yoga? or la crosse?

    Hilarious.

    Companies want competence and diligence. The are worried about compliance issues and lost time accidents, law suits, and the bottom line for crying out loud. All this frou frou stuff is silly. Do you think they care about the hobbies and interests of their H1B engineers? Hey, does he play cricket?

    Companies care a lot more about where a candidate went to school than their other interests.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But, it won’t work, if the intention is to maintain the ivies as first tier institutions.”

    I am skeptical. They basically get first pick of all the best students and they have a spectacular track record for picking winners. They miss some, but not many. They are a private club of sorts and they look after their members interests first. Their hands are not tied. They give the assistance they want to give to whomever they want to give it. As long as they are only discriminating against middle class men, they are within their discretion as private schools. Strong students from the middle class are not a protected class.

    Don’t you find it interesting to note the utter lack of diversity of education on our US Supreme Court? They all went to the same private schools. There is no regional diversity. Only universities of a very narrow group are represented.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But, it won’t work, if the intention is to maintain the ivies as first tier institutions.”

    I am skeptical. They basically get first pick of all the best students and they have a spectacular track record for picking winners. They miss some, but not many. They are a private club of sorts and they look after their members interests first. Their hands are not tied. They give the assistance they want to give to whomever they want to give it. As long as they are only discriminating against middle class men, they are within their discretion as private schools. Strong students from the middle class are not a protected class.

    Don’t you find it interesting to note the utter lack of diversity of education on our US Supreme Court? They all went to the same private schools. There is no regional diversity. Only universities of a very narrow group are represented.

  • John C

    Is Patrick Henry College a model that should be replicated in a nascent secular democracy in the Middle East? That is, home school Muslim children are sent off to Islamic colleges and universities to prepare for leadership positions in a secular society.

  • John C

    Is Patrick Henry College a model that should be replicated in a nascent secular democracy in the Middle East? That is, home school Muslim children are sent off to Islamic colleges and universities to prepare for leadership positions in a secular society.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Webmonk, you say we have dropped everything science-related since the “split”? Nonsense. We do far more with quantitative research than we did before. Also, we now have a really, really good and demanding physics teacher. Our biology professor too is rigorous and demanding. But here is the point: PHC has an actual core curriculum. It includes two science courses. Fewer and fewer colleges have anything like that any more. Yes, PHC does relatively little with the sciences right now, something I would love to change in the future. But the average college student from other schools knows even less. Those schools may have science majors, but most students can avoid taking anything “hard” like science. I went to a big state university, and the single science requirement could be met by taking a “Physics for Poets” course. (I resisted that temptation.) Many schools today don’t even require that much.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Webmonk, you say we have dropped everything science-related since the “split”? Nonsense. We do far more with quantitative research than we did before. Also, we now have a really, really good and demanding physics teacher. Our biology professor too is rigorous and demanding. But here is the point: PHC has an actual core curriculum. It includes two science courses. Fewer and fewer colleges have anything like that any more. Yes, PHC does relatively little with the sciences right now, something I would love to change in the future. But the average college student from other schools knows even less. Those schools may have science majors, but most students can avoid taking anything “hard” like science. I went to a big state university, and the single science requirement could be met by taking a “Physics for Poets” course. (I resisted that temptation.) Many schools today don’t even require that much.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Porcell said (@62):

    sg, your assumption that top institutions are adept at attracting the gifted folks assumes that such baubles as SAT scores and academic rank in class are indicative of truly gifted folk.

    Ah, so SAT scores are “baubles” that don’t really tell us the important things about people. Sure, that makes sense, as long as one is of the opinion that standardized tests aren’t really all that usefu… oh, what’s that Porcell (@47)?

    Placement rates and salaries would hardly be an effective evaluation tool for any college. These merely indicate the reputation of the school. The Ivy League schools would do well to use the ETSPP, though, again, I’m fairly sure these schools don’t wish to run the risk of being bettered by the likes of Patrick Henry College.

    Hmm. Well, at least it’s not like the ETS Proficiency Profile is administered by the same people who administer the SAT, right?

    Oh, they are, actually, from the same company? Well, huh.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Porcell said (@62):

    sg, your assumption that top institutions are adept at attracting the gifted folks assumes that such baubles as SAT scores and academic rank in class are indicative of truly gifted folk.

    Ah, so SAT scores are “baubles” that don’t really tell us the important things about people. Sure, that makes sense, as long as one is of the opinion that standardized tests aren’t really all that usefu… oh, what’s that Porcell (@47)?

    Placement rates and salaries would hardly be an effective evaluation tool for any college. These merely indicate the reputation of the school. The Ivy League schools would do well to use the ETSPP, though, again, I’m fairly sure these schools don’t wish to run the risk of being bettered by the likes of Patrick Henry College.

    Hmm. Well, at least it’s not like the ETS Proficiency Profile is administered by the same people who administer the SAT, right?

    Oh, they are, actually, from the same company? Well, huh.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    Like Webmonk, I’ve been wondering how PHC students can do so well on the Natural Science portion of the ETSPP when the college lists only five science courses in its catalog (Physics, Physics Lab, Biology, Biology Lab, Origins; perhaps there are a few more sciency courses scattered throughout the catalog).

    I suspect part of the reason is the nature of general science courses that students take at other institutions of “higher education.” Many students at these other schools take just one science course, often something like what Dr. Veith mentioned: Physics for Poets.

    More decades ago than I care to admit, I was a graduate teaching assistant for introductory geology and chemistry courses for non-majors at a large state university. Each of these courses had over 200 students, most of whom never had any sort of interaction with the professor. They had to interact with me in the laboratory, but most of them did the bare minimum to get by, and the lab grade was probably only about 20% of their grade. The exams in the lecture portion of the class consisted of filling in the bubbles on scantron forms. The questions were not written to require any sort of critical thinking; mere regurgitation of facts was sufficient.

    I know that PHC does a better job of teaching important skills like critical thinking, analysis, and writing than do most other colleges, and if the ETSPP requires critical thinking rather than just knowing a lot of facts, then this might account for PHC’s high score.

    On a side note: I do think that PHC’s strict adherence to young-Earth creationism shows that there are limits to the applicability of a liberal arts education to questions of science. The YEC picture of earth history has a zillion problems that brilliant students who are well-trained in political science and strategic intelligence won’t see. (I won’t get into a debate about this here; I know such statements can hijack a discussion and that is not my intention).

    Congratulations to PHC on its achievement.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    Like Webmonk, I’ve been wondering how PHC students can do so well on the Natural Science portion of the ETSPP when the college lists only five science courses in its catalog (Physics, Physics Lab, Biology, Biology Lab, Origins; perhaps there are a few more sciency courses scattered throughout the catalog).

    I suspect part of the reason is the nature of general science courses that students take at other institutions of “higher education.” Many students at these other schools take just one science course, often something like what Dr. Veith mentioned: Physics for Poets.

    More decades ago than I care to admit, I was a graduate teaching assistant for introductory geology and chemistry courses for non-majors at a large state university. Each of these courses had over 200 students, most of whom never had any sort of interaction with the professor. They had to interact with me in the laboratory, but most of them did the bare minimum to get by, and the lab grade was probably only about 20% of their grade. The exams in the lecture portion of the class consisted of filling in the bubbles on scantron forms. The questions were not written to require any sort of critical thinking; mere regurgitation of facts was sufficient.

    I know that PHC does a better job of teaching important skills like critical thinking, analysis, and writing than do most other colleges, and if the ETSPP requires critical thinking rather than just knowing a lot of facts, then this might account for PHC’s high score.

    On a side note: I do think that PHC’s strict adherence to young-Earth creationism shows that there are limits to the applicability of a liberal arts education to questions of science. The YEC picture of earth history has a zillion problems that brilliant students who are well-trained in political science and strategic intelligence won’t see. (I won’t get into a debate about this here; I know such statements can hijack a discussion and that is not my intention).

    Congratulations to PHC on its achievement.

  • WebMonk

    Dr Veith, several years ago they had more math classes and more science classes, such as neuroscience and molecular nutrition. I realize you want to put the best spin on things, but dropping the only two advanced science courses PHC had, and dropping Trigonometry is hardly an expansion of science offerings despite the claim of more “quantitative science”. Would the increased “quantitative” science offerings of PHC involve the statistics course that was added, or are you referring to the “origins” class (which from what it looks like from both the description and the books required for the class looks like it is extremely heavy on the philosophy side of things, hence my description of it being a philosophy of science course)?

    I didn’t just say PHC had dropped everything science, I said they had dropped everything science not required for TRACS accreditation.

    And, that’s not a horrible thing – the college needs to focus on what it can afford and on its central mission. That central mission isn’t to provide science/tech sorts of majors.

    I’m just sort of curious how PHC managed to come out on top in both Math and Natural Sciences when PHC has next to nothing (in comparison to other colleges) in the way of math/science courses.

  • WebMonk

    Dr Veith, several years ago they had more math classes and more science classes, such as neuroscience and molecular nutrition. I realize you want to put the best spin on things, but dropping the only two advanced science courses PHC had, and dropping Trigonometry is hardly an expansion of science offerings despite the claim of more “quantitative science”. Would the increased “quantitative” science offerings of PHC involve the statistics course that was added, or are you referring to the “origins” class (which from what it looks like from both the description and the books required for the class looks like it is extremely heavy on the philosophy side of things, hence my description of it being a philosophy of science course)?

    I didn’t just say PHC had dropped everything science, I said they had dropped everything science not required for TRACS accreditation.

    And, that’s not a horrible thing – the college needs to focus on what it can afford and on its central mission. That central mission isn’t to provide science/tech sorts of majors.

    I’m just sort of curious how PHC managed to come out on top in both Math and Natural Sciences when PHC has next to nothing (in comparison to other colleges) in the way of math/science courses.

  • WebMonk

    Kevin N, no there aren’t any more sciency courses scattered around the catalog.

  • WebMonk

    Kevin N, no there aren’t any more sciency courses scattered around the catalog.

  • WebMonk

    Maybe I should clarify that, just to avoid being jumped upon. I’m not doubting that PHC was on top, or suggesting the test was flawed, or something like that.

    I suspect that it’s a combination of things – the ETSPP not testing for science knowledge as much as things like scientific methods or reasoning, and as Dr. Veith has pointed out, many other schools may teach the math and physics to a much greater degree to some of their students, but their overall education in sciences is pretty low (aka Physics for Poets).

  • WebMonk

    Maybe I should clarify that, just to avoid being jumped upon. I’m not doubting that PHC was on top, or suggesting the test was flawed, or something like that.

    I suspect that it’s a combination of things – the ETSPP not testing for science knowledge as much as things like scientific methods or reasoning, and as Dr. Veith has pointed out, many other schools may teach the math and physics to a much greater degree to some of their students, but their overall education in sciences is pretty low (aka Physics for Poets).

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Our “research methods” classes, required of all government majors, is now highly quantitative. Our political science professors used to be mainly theorists. Now they are mostly involved in quantitative research, empirical studies, and statistical analysis, while still being liberal arts oriented. Most of our students are government majors of some kind, so this is why I say we do even more quantitative stuff than we used to. Upper division electives like “neuroscience” were specialties of a faculty member who isn’t with us anymore, so that’s why we dropped them, but they never had more than a handful of students. (We do have plans for more upper division electives to replace them, by the way.)

    The ETS test, as I recall, did things like describing experiments and giving the data in charts and grafts, and then asked the test-takers to draw conclusions. No, it didn’t ask “knowledge” questions such as how old the earth is or how many planets there are. One could answer questions like that from reading a magazine article without knowing how to “do science.”

    Again, I credit our core curriculum, our good teaching (with Kevin describing the norm in college introductory science courses), unusually bright students, and the abysmally poor education–scientific and otherwise–that is going on in other (not all) institutions.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Our “research methods” classes, required of all government majors, is now highly quantitative. Our political science professors used to be mainly theorists. Now they are mostly involved in quantitative research, empirical studies, and statistical analysis, while still being liberal arts oriented. Most of our students are government majors of some kind, so this is why I say we do even more quantitative stuff than we used to. Upper division electives like “neuroscience” were specialties of a faculty member who isn’t with us anymore, so that’s why we dropped them, but they never had more than a handful of students. (We do have plans for more upper division electives to replace them, by the way.)

    The ETS test, as I recall, did things like describing experiments and giving the data in charts and grafts, and then asked the test-takers to draw conclusions. No, it didn’t ask “knowledge” questions such as how old the earth is or how many planets there are. One could answer questions like that from reading a magazine article without knowing how to “do science.”

    Again, I credit our core curriculum, our good teaching (with Kevin describing the norm in college introductory science courses), unusually bright students, and the abysmally poor education–scientific and otherwise–that is going on in other (not all) institutions.

  • Grace

    sg – 79 – - “Yeah, right. ‘Cuz if they need a Chem. engineer to run a plastics plant, they’re gonna need to feel comfortable with his hobbies. Does he volunteer? Does he fish? maybe yoga? or la crosse? Hilarious. ”

    You can make all the snide remarks you like, adding the mix containing gibberish. You either don’t comprehend what I wrote, or you are purposefully making an argument you don’t have.

    You might be reflecting upon the 40′s, 50′s and 60′s, … however, corporations and business are interested in men and women who have a well rounded life,… including most of all competence in their field, and then a life outside that includes family and interests.

  • Grace

    sg – 79 – - “Yeah, right. ‘Cuz if they need a Chem. engineer to run a plastics plant, they’re gonna need to feel comfortable with his hobbies. Does he volunteer? Does he fish? maybe yoga? or la crosse? Hilarious. ”

    You can make all the snide remarks you like, adding the mix containing gibberish. You either don’t comprehend what I wrote, or you are purposefully making an argument you don’t have.

    You might be reflecting upon the 40′s, 50′s and 60′s, … however, corporations and business are interested in men and women who have a well rounded life,… including most of all competence in their field, and then a life outside that includes family and interests.

  • Grace

    sg – - – - – 79

    ” Do you think they care about the hobbies and interests of their H1B engineers? Hey, does he play cricket?
    Companies care a lot more about where a candidate went to school than their other interests.”

    I have no idea what your background is, …. either business, hiring, science, medicine, banking or whatever. What I observe is your indifference to what is important in business the year 2011.

    “Private schools – …… let me make make myself clear – EDUCATION today is so far from yesterday it cannot be measured.

    Let’s get it straight:

    Companies, corporations CARE ABOUT:

    What an employee can DO. Not what their alma mater gave them on a slip of paper –

    You have some sort of fantasy that a grade average, above the rest will give a young employee some sort of advantage….. you couldn’t be more wrong in todays work force.

    Lets get to the employees background, including family and interests:

    If a future employee has no interest in anything outside of his given field, I would not be impressed. WHY? because this individual has not grown into an adult – this individual has no idea of the outside world or what it represents, or the people to whom this individual addresses itself – – - – - he/she is only using scientific knowledge to examine what he knows not and that is:….. the heart of man, and to make it simple the joys that man chooses to enjoy whether brilliant or not!

    Do you know the heart of man?

  • Grace

    sg – - – - – 79

    ” Do you think they care about the hobbies and interests of their H1B engineers? Hey, does he play cricket?
    Companies care a lot more about where a candidate went to school than their other interests.”

    I have no idea what your background is, …. either business, hiring, science, medicine, banking or whatever. What I observe is your indifference to what is important in business the year 2011.

    “Private schools – …… let me make make myself clear – EDUCATION today is so far from yesterday it cannot be measured.

    Let’s get it straight:

    Companies, corporations CARE ABOUT:

    What an employee can DO. Not what their alma mater gave them on a slip of paper –

    You have some sort of fantasy that a grade average, above the rest will give a young employee some sort of advantage….. you couldn’t be more wrong in todays work force.

    Lets get to the employees background, including family and interests:

    If a future employee has no interest in anything outside of his given field, I would not be impressed. WHY? because this individual has not grown into an adult – this individual has no idea of the outside world or what it represents, or the people to whom this individual addresses itself – – - – - he/she is only using scientific knowledge to examine what he knows not and that is:….. the heart of man, and to make it simple the joys that man chooses to enjoy whether brilliant or not!

    Do you know the heart of man?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Do you know the heart of man?”

    No, and never going to. Rather just look at those measures known to correlate to a person’s on the job performance. Companies do care about schools, grades and majors. No one is implying that these are absolutes. They just improve a student’s odds. A student who goes to a school with a good reputation in the field he is studying, gets good grades while he is there, is more likely (not guaranteed) to get an interview and then a position than someone who doesn’t have those things to put on his application. Just common knowledge. Companies do not consider intangibles over tangibles in the general case, especially for entry level new hires.

    “If a future employee has no interest in anything outside of his given field, I would not be impressed. WHY? because this individual has not grown into an adult…”

    Plausible. I would probably ignore just out of general disinterest, but I can see how it would be viewed as suspicious because everyone has to do something in his free time even if it is just video games. Of course, I can see why a candidate wouldn’t want to list WoW as his other interest. So listing nothing is kinda weird. Companies don’t want to hire psychos.

    “Companies, corporations CARE ABOUT:

    What an employee can DO.”

    Yeah, I said that, too, you know, competence, diligence.

    “Not what their alma mater gave them on a slip of paper –”

    Alma mater provided them the education, but what is on that paper, they earned. Companies know that.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Do you know the heart of man?”

    No, and never going to. Rather just look at those measures known to correlate to a person’s on the job performance. Companies do care about schools, grades and majors. No one is implying that these are absolutes. They just improve a student’s odds. A student who goes to a school with a good reputation in the field he is studying, gets good grades while he is there, is more likely (not guaranteed) to get an interview and then a position than someone who doesn’t have those things to put on his application. Just common knowledge. Companies do not consider intangibles over tangibles in the general case, especially for entry level new hires.

    “If a future employee has no interest in anything outside of his given field, I would not be impressed. WHY? because this individual has not grown into an adult…”

    Plausible. I would probably ignore just out of general disinterest, but I can see how it would be viewed as suspicious because everyone has to do something in his free time even if it is just video games. Of course, I can see why a candidate wouldn’t want to list WoW as his other interest. So listing nothing is kinda weird. Companies don’t want to hire psychos.

    “Companies, corporations CARE ABOUT:

    What an employee can DO.”

    Yeah, I said that, too, you know, competence, diligence.

    “Not what their alma mater gave them on a slip of paper –”

    Alma mater provided them the education, but what is on that paper, they earned. Companies know that.

  • WebMonk

    No, it didn’t ask “knowledge” questions such as how old the earth is or how many planets there are. One could answer questions like that from reading a magazine article without knowing how to “do science.”

    is an incredibly ignorant thing to say. (not pejorative, merely descriptive) Yes, your specific examples can be garnered from reading a magazine. Your examples are also ridiculous – straw men to the insanely bizarre extreme. You aren’t helping your overall theme by putting a silly statement like that in the middle.

    I get what you are saying how “quantitative” work is very valuable, and I agree, but it is not a substitute for a real education in the field. Saying “quantitative” work like what you’ve described is comparable to classes on the subjects, is like saying getting really good at multiplication and division is comparable to learning integral calculus.

    The ETS test, as I recall, did things like describing experiments and giving the data in charts and grafts, and then asked the test-takers to draw conclusions.

    That sounds about right, no specific knowledge is needed, but good reasoning skills to extract meaning are required. That is no small accomplishment.

  • WebMonk

    No, it didn’t ask “knowledge” questions such as how old the earth is or how many planets there are. One could answer questions like that from reading a magazine article without knowing how to “do science.”

    is an incredibly ignorant thing to say. (not pejorative, merely descriptive) Yes, your specific examples can be garnered from reading a magazine. Your examples are also ridiculous – straw men to the insanely bizarre extreme. You aren’t helping your overall theme by putting a silly statement like that in the middle.

    I get what you are saying how “quantitative” work is very valuable, and I agree, but it is not a substitute for a real education in the field. Saying “quantitative” work like what you’ve described is comparable to classes on the subjects, is like saying getting really good at multiplication and division is comparable to learning integral calculus.

    The ETS test, as I recall, did things like describing experiments and giving the data in charts and grafts, and then asked the test-takers to draw conclusions.

    That sounds about right, no specific knowledge is needed, but good reasoning skills to extract meaning are required. That is no small accomplishment.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The ETS test, as I recall, did things like describing experiments and giving the data in charts and grafts, and then asked the test-takers to draw conclusions.”

    “That sounds about right, no specific knowledge is needed, but good reasoning skills to extract meaning are required. That is no small accomplishment.”

    But then isn’t it more of a critical reading test than a science knowledge/skill test? I guess it depends on the questions themselves, perhaps.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The ETS test, as I recall, did things like describing experiments and giving the data in charts and grafts, and then asked the test-takers to draw conclusions.”

    “That sounds about right, no specific knowledge is needed, but good reasoning skills to extract meaning are required. That is no small accomplishment.”

    But then isn’t it more of a critical reading test than a science knowledge/skill test? I guess it depends on the questions themselves, perhaps.

  • WebMonk

    But then isn’t it more of a critical reading test than a science knowledge/skill test? I guess it depends on the questions themselves, perhaps.

    Yes. It still requires basic scientific comprehension to understand what is being shown, but it doesn’t require you to actually know any particular science or math facts, such as how to solve limits equations or construct molecular diagrams.

  • WebMonk

    But then isn’t it more of a critical reading test than a science knowledge/skill test? I guess it depends on the questions themselves, perhaps.

    Yes. It still requires basic scientific comprehension to understand what is being shown, but it doesn’t require you to actually know any particular science or math facts, such as how to solve limits equations or construct molecular diagrams.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Webmonk, Dr. Veith, have you looked at Dale and Krueger’s work on the topic?

    http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf

    http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/563.pdf

    Some have noted that while the calculations render similar results, the interpretation of the results changes. What do you think?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Webmonk, Dr. Veith, have you looked at Dale and Krueger’s work on the topic?

    http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409.pdf

    http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/563.pdf

    Some have noted that while the calculations render similar results, the interpretation of the results changes. What do you think?

  • Grace

    Fraternities and sororities are important, and other organizations on campus, those which are tailored to one’s future career interest, and leisure pursuits.

    The organizations mentioned above also serve after university – people keep in touch, often meeting occasionally after football games, or luncheons, and weekend gatherings. The interesting part of these friendships is this; when career positions become available, the members often contact others to let them know, this includes their father or mother who maybe president or CEO of the company, or perhaps they have taken over the company or at least make the final decisions on who is given the position – these contacts serve to make the fraternity brother or sorority sister far more acceptable, knowing their background, moral standards, and family. Long standing friendships put these people far ahead of any others who are seeking the position.

    Academic achievement is very important, but so are long standing friendships – this allows the employer an in depth picture of the person they employ.

  • Grace

    Fraternities and sororities are important, and other organizations on campus, those which are tailored to one’s future career interest, and leisure pursuits.

    The organizations mentioned above also serve after university – people keep in touch, often meeting occasionally after football games, or luncheons, and weekend gatherings. The interesting part of these friendships is this; when career positions become available, the members often contact others to let them know, this includes their father or mother who maybe president or CEO of the company, or perhaps they have taken over the company or at least make the final decisions on who is given the position – these contacts serve to make the fraternity brother or sorority sister far more acceptable, knowing their background, moral standards, and family. Long standing friendships put these people far ahead of any others who are seeking the position.

    Academic achievement is very important, but so are long standing friendships – this allows the employer an in depth picture of the person they employ.

  • Matt

    Since the lively debate has died down anyway and this blog does seem to be frequented by mostly Lutherans, I thought I’d ask an off topic question. Does anyone here have an opinion on Wisconsin Lutheran College? Both intellectually and spiritually I’ve been blessed as a student there and was wondering if WLC, through recent advertising efforts or positive word of mouth, has recieved attention from the wider community of Christians and specifically Lutherans.

  • Matt

    Since the lively debate has died down anyway and this blog does seem to be frequented by mostly Lutherans, I thought I’d ask an off topic question. Does anyone here have an opinion on Wisconsin Lutheran College? Both intellectually and spiritually I’ve been blessed as a student there and was wondering if WLC, through recent advertising efforts or positive word of mouth, has recieved attention from the wider community of Christians and specifically Lutherans.

  • Bart

    If my PHC education taught me anything, it’s that some internet arguments aren’t worth fighting.

  • Bart

    If my PHC education taught me anything, it’s that some internet arguments aren’t worth fighting.

  • WebMonk
  • WebMonk
  • Pingback: College majors & unemployment | Cranach: The Blog of Veith

  • Pingback: College majors & unemployment | Cranach: The Blog of Veith


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X