When you disagree with someone, try to destroy him

The liberal organization Media Matters used to just try to refute stories on Fox News.  But now it is changing tactics:

In an interview and a 2010 planning memo shared with POLITICO, Brock listed the fronts on which Media Matters — which he said is operating on a $10 million-plus annual budget — is working to chip away at Fox and its parent company, News Corp. They include its bread-and-butter distribution of embarrassing clips and attempts to rebut Fox points, as well as a series of under-the-radar tactics.

Media Matters, Brock said, is assembling opposition research files not only on Fox’s top executives but on a series of midlevel officials. It has hired an activist who has led a successful campaign to press advertisers to avoid Glenn Beck’s show. The group is assembling a legal team to help people who have clashed with Fox to file lawsuits for defamation, invasion of privacy or other causes. And it has hired two experienced reporters, Joe Strupp and Alexander Zaitchik, to dig into Fox’s operation to help assemble a book on the network, due out in 2012 from Vintage/Anchor. (In the interest of full disclosure, Media Matters last month also issued a report criticizing “Fox and Friends” co-host Steve Doocy’s criticism of this reporter’s blog.)

Brock said Media Matters also plans to run a broad campaign against Fox’s parent company, News Corp., an effort which most likely will involve opening a United Kingdom arm in London to attack the company’s interests there. The group hired an executive from MoveOn.org to work on developing campaigns among News Corp. shareholders and also is looking for ways to turn regulators in the U.S., U.K., and elsewhere against the network.

The group will “focus on [News Corp. CEO Rupert] Murdoch and trying to disrupt his commercial interests — whether that be here or looking at what’s going on in London right now,” Brock said, referring to News Corp.’s — apparently successful — move to take a majority stake in the satellite broadcaster BSkyB.

via Media Matters’ war against Fox – Ben Smith – POLITICO.com.

Postmodernists, remember, do not generally believe in reason.  They think truth claims are nothing more than the imposition of power.  Thus their personal animosity against people who disagree with them, who, they think, are trying to oppress them.  Conversely, people who think this way tend to want to impose their power against the people they disagree with and to hurt them as much as they can.

Have you seen other examples of this kind of vindictiveness as a substitute for rational debate?  I’m not denying that both sides do it.   What would be the consequences for civil society and political liberty if everyone acted that way?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Carl Vehse

    The prime example continues to be the Islamist jihad against the West over the past decades, particularly its 9/11 attack and subsequent attacks since then.

    In addition there are the continuing attacks by leftists and the media on Sarah Palin following the 2008 election. The recent union-thuggery in Wisconsin is another example. There are the threats against pro-life nurses refusing to participate in a hospital’s genocide by abortion procedures.

    Within the Missouri Synod, there is, of course, the 2002 example of the vindictiveness of the Lutheran Laymen’s League leaders (supported by the members at convention) who threatened with suspension, then fired, the Rev. Wallace Schulz as Lutheran Hour Speaker for doing his duty as the appointed ecclesiastical supervisor in the Benke/Yankee Stadium syncretism investigation.

  • Carl Vehse

    The prime example continues to be the Islamist jihad against the West over the past decades, particularly its 9/11 attack and subsequent attacks since then.

    In addition there are the continuing attacks by leftists and the media on Sarah Palin following the 2008 election. The recent union-thuggery in Wisconsin is another example. There are the threats against pro-life nurses refusing to participate in a hospital’s genocide by abortion procedures.

    Within the Missouri Synod, there is, of course, the 2002 example of the vindictiveness of the Lutheran Laymen’s League leaders (supported by the members at convention) who threatened with suspension, then fired, the Rev. Wallace Schulz as Lutheran Hour Speaker for doing his duty as the appointed ecclesiastical supervisor in the Benke/Yankee Stadium syncretism investigation.

  • Booklover

    The title and penultimate paragraph of this post describe exactly what happened in my personal life last year.

    My sister and I have differing religious and political beliefs, but we loved each other and coexisted that way for years. Almost daily, she would post her political views as a status on facebook. I never commented. Finally one day I offered my opinion, which was a short sentence or two. She responded with 4 pages of hate e-mailed to me, telling me everything I had ever done to make her hate me. It sent me into a depression for several months. I got off facebook for almost a year because of this. We had a flood last year that destroyed half our home and its contents including 2000 precious books, but that didn’t cause an iota of the sadness that this separation from my sister caused. “When you disagree with someone, try to destroy him” is a working goal of some people.

  • Booklover

    The title and penultimate paragraph of this post describe exactly what happened in my personal life last year.

    My sister and I have differing religious and political beliefs, but we loved each other and coexisted that way for years. Almost daily, she would post her political views as a status on facebook. I never commented. Finally one day I offered my opinion, which was a short sentence or two. She responded with 4 pages of hate e-mailed to me, telling me everything I had ever done to make her hate me. It sent me into a depression for several months. I got off facebook for almost a year because of this. We had a flood last year that destroyed half our home and its contents including 2000 precious books, but that didn’t cause an iota of the sadness that this separation from my sister caused. “When you disagree with someone, try to destroy him” is a working goal of some people.

  • Jonathan

    @ Carl, Issues, Etc. was another such example of media snuffing also within LCMS.

  • Jonathan

    @ Carl, Issues, Etc. was another such example of media snuffing also within LCMS.

  • Carl Vehse

    Jonathan, yes indeed, that’s another good example that needs to be brought up for discussion in the upcoming harmony-restoring study groups of the Koinoniafest Project.

  • Carl Vehse

    Jonathan, yes indeed, that’s another good example that needs to be brought up for discussion in the upcoming harmony-restoring study groups of the Koinoniafest Project.

  • Kirk

    “Postmodernists, remember, do not generally believe in reason. ”

    To be fair, neither do most FOX news pundits.

    But seriously attempting to silence an opposing voice through any means other than reason, unless that voice is of an immediate and bodily danger, seems undemocratic to me. Media matters should stick to it’s tactics of demonstrating what it feels are untruths and inconsistencies and then let its audience decide who’s argument has more merit. I know that’s awfully idealistic, but it’d be great to see.

    Other examples would be Tea Partiers carrying guns to protests (I know it’s supposed to be a 2nd amendment deal, but it smacks of “disagree with me and I might shoot you”), the death threats that Prop 8 opponents sent to Prop 8 proponents, the Mohammad cartoon debacle, the arson of construction equipment and the Murfreesboro mosque, and so on and so on. Thinking about it, I’m going to revise my statement that most FOX pundits don’t believe in reason: most people don’t seem to believe in reason. It’s inconvenient to prejudices and presuppositions.

  • Kirk

    “Postmodernists, remember, do not generally believe in reason. ”

    To be fair, neither do most FOX news pundits.

    But seriously attempting to silence an opposing voice through any means other than reason, unless that voice is of an immediate and bodily danger, seems undemocratic to me. Media matters should stick to it’s tactics of demonstrating what it feels are untruths and inconsistencies and then let its audience decide who’s argument has more merit. I know that’s awfully idealistic, but it’d be great to see.

    Other examples would be Tea Partiers carrying guns to protests (I know it’s supposed to be a 2nd amendment deal, but it smacks of “disagree with me and I might shoot you”), the death threats that Prop 8 opponents sent to Prop 8 proponents, the Mohammad cartoon debacle, the arson of construction equipment and the Murfreesboro mosque, and so on and so on. Thinking about it, I’m going to revise my statement that most FOX pundits don’t believe in reason: most people don’t seem to believe in reason. It’s inconvenient to prejudices and presuppositions.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Kirk, I think you’re overstating the meaning of exercising one’s 2nd Amendment rights at Tea Parties, my friend.

    But what would happen if people tried to destroy each other instead of reasoning? Seems to me our political process would look a lot like Washington, DC.

    Oh. ;^)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Kirk, I think you’re overstating the meaning of exercising one’s 2nd Amendment rights at Tea Parties, my friend.

    But what would happen if people tried to destroy each other instead of reasoning? Seems to me our political process would look a lot like Washington, DC.

    Oh. ;^)

  • Joe

    Kirk – re: the guns at protests. Most of the people who carry at protests carry all day every day. It is no different than putting on their pants. Its not part of the statement (for most) its just part of their wardrobe.

  • Joe

    Kirk – re: the guns at protests. Most of the people who carry at protests carry all day every day. It is no different than putting on their pants. Its not part of the statement (for most) its just part of their wardrobe.

  • Kirk

    @ Joe,

    You didn’t see the protesters and Gravely Point here in VA. Assault rifles, shotguns, bandoleers of ammunition slung across their chests, red dot sights, it was a little more than open carry day. Couple that with all the “tree of liberty signs” and it seemed pretty martial.

    Still, I know what you’re saying. It’s not always a threat, and I don’t mean to suggest that you were trying to intimidate anyone by carrying a gun to a protest. Just, from what I observed at some of the protests near DC (you can’t carry inside the city limits), things were a little over the top.

  • Kirk

    @ Joe,

    You didn’t see the protesters and Gravely Point here in VA. Assault rifles, shotguns, bandoleers of ammunition slung across their chests, red dot sights, it was a little more than open carry day. Couple that with all the “tree of liberty signs” and it seemed pretty martial.

    Still, I know what you’re saying. It’s not always a threat, and I don’t mean to suggest that you were trying to intimidate anyone by carrying a gun to a protest. Just, from what I observed at some of the protests near DC (you can’t carry inside the city limits), things were a little over the top.

  • Orianna Laun

    When I was in high school two decades ago I experienced this firsthand. It was a group called JSA and they were having a debate on whether or not Columbus Day should be celebrated. Me, having been educated in a more traditional elementary school still believed that one could respond with logic. The main presenter indicated that Columbus should not be celebrated because he caused widespread harm to the natives. I got up and tried to indicate that to Columbus’s worldview the natives were less human to the civilized Europeans and could be exploited, but that did not change the fact that what he did do right was cause for celebration. I made a misstep however in using the word “savage” to refer to Columbus’s view of the native. Well. They charged me with believing that the natives were savage. I tried to explain that I was using the European view of the natives at the time. I was done for. How can you take anyone in the 20th century seriously that thinks that aboriginal people are “savage”? It wasn’t a debate, it was debunking of the opposition.

  • Orianna Laun

    When I was in high school two decades ago I experienced this firsthand. It was a group called JSA and they were having a debate on whether or not Columbus Day should be celebrated. Me, having been educated in a more traditional elementary school still believed that one could respond with logic. The main presenter indicated that Columbus should not be celebrated because he caused widespread harm to the natives. I got up and tried to indicate that to Columbus’s worldview the natives were less human to the civilized Europeans and could be exploited, but that did not change the fact that what he did do right was cause for celebration. I made a misstep however in using the word “savage” to refer to Columbus’s view of the native. Well. They charged me with believing that the natives were savage. I tried to explain that I was using the European view of the natives at the time. I was done for. How can you take anyone in the 20th century seriously that thinks that aboriginal people are “savage”? It wasn’t a debate, it was debunking of the opposition.

  • CRB

    Somewhat related, a good article here on Christian apologetics:
    http://blog.captainthin.net/?p=997

  • CRB

    Somewhat related, a good article here on Christian apologetics:
    http://blog.captainthin.net/?p=997

  • Jerry

    What do they teach in pre-school now?

  • Jerry

    What do they teach in pre-school now?

  • DonS

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/03/schumer-coordinates-dem-budget-attack-gop

    Senator Schumer’s marching orders to his fellow Democratic senators, to always use the label “extreme” concerning the tea party viewpoint and Republicans who advocate it, is instructive. Whither constructive debate, rather than name calling, in an attempt to marginalize, rather than reason with, opposing view points? And what, pray tell, is extreme about attempting to cut $60 billion out of a $3.8 trillion budget (a cut of a mere 1 1/2 %? If that is “extreme”, with a deficit of $1.5 trillion, then we are doomed.

  • DonS

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/03/schumer-coordinates-dem-budget-attack-gop

    Senator Schumer’s marching orders to his fellow Democratic senators, to always use the label “extreme” concerning the tea party viewpoint and Republicans who advocate it, is instructive. Whither constructive debate, rather than name calling, in an attempt to marginalize, rather than reason with, opposing view points? And what, pray tell, is extreme about attempting to cut $60 billion out of a $3.8 trillion budget (a cut of a mere 1 1/2 %? If that is “extreme”, with a deficit of $1.5 trillion, then we are doomed.

  • Joe

    Kirk – fair point.

  • Joe

    Kirk – fair point.

  • http://lastdanceofthejackalope.blogspot.com JD Loofbourrow

    For several years I had a variety of verses and christianly pictures posted at my desk at work. They were very visible and I did mean them to be seen by others. Over time my desk location moved and every time I moved I kept my desk decorated with what I am passionate about. And from time to time it would serve as a talking point. The more reasonable people in my office had no complaint. They had what they loved at their desk and they seemed to be ok with what I had at mine.

    Well, eventually, I was moved to a spot that is along the offices main walkway and a few people were offended by what I had at my desk. They couldn’t stand to walk by it everyday. So, instead of talking to me about it, they lodged a complaint with this inner office program which contacted me and informed me that I had to remove the material. I declined to comply and left the material up.

    Eventually the issue was elevated to our corporation’s head quarters. They sent out an “investigator” who really treated me like some crazed feral dog. I tried to reason with her and help her to see my side of things but she wasn’t really there to listen to me I guess, she was just there to get me to take the stuff down. She insisted that the company has a policy of “tolerance and neutrality” She said that I was harassing a protected group (the atheists). I tried to point out that according to the company guidelines I was part of a protected group as well but she said that “respondents don’t have appeal rights.” Well she told me that she would let my supervisor know what the company’s final decision was in a few weeks.

    Every thing went quiet over the holidays; people had all kinds of weird stuff at their desks from Halloween through Christmas. Then, in February, I was notified that I had to take everything down or I would be subject to disciplinary action (which is the slow boat to getting fired). After praying about it and seeking out counsel I decided to remove everything. Since then I have received a number of other fallacious complaints and accusations which I have just ignored. I knew when I put the stuff up that it might be offensive to my more liberal friends but I thought it might serve as a point of conversation.

    Anyway I haven’t lost much by removing the material. Everything on my cubical walls was written on my heart a long time ago. Really it’s the office that has lost something. Besides, I think my empty desk has stirred even more discussion than it did when it had my stuff all over it. It seems some people have noticed that it got a little darker in here.

  • http://lastdanceofthejackalope.blogspot.com JD Loofbourrow

    For several years I had a variety of verses and christianly pictures posted at my desk at work. They were very visible and I did mean them to be seen by others. Over time my desk location moved and every time I moved I kept my desk decorated with what I am passionate about. And from time to time it would serve as a talking point. The more reasonable people in my office had no complaint. They had what they loved at their desk and they seemed to be ok with what I had at mine.

    Well, eventually, I was moved to a spot that is along the offices main walkway and a few people were offended by what I had at my desk. They couldn’t stand to walk by it everyday. So, instead of talking to me about it, they lodged a complaint with this inner office program which contacted me and informed me that I had to remove the material. I declined to comply and left the material up.

    Eventually the issue was elevated to our corporation’s head quarters. They sent out an “investigator” who really treated me like some crazed feral dog. I tried to reason with her and help her to see my side of things but she wasn’t really there to listen to me I guess, she was just there to get me to take the stuff down. She insisted that the company has a policy of “tolerance and neutrality” She said that I was harassing a protected group (the atheists). I tried to point out that according to the company guidelines I was part of a protected group as well but she said that “respondents don’t have appeal rights.” Well she told me that she would let my supervisor know what the company’s final decision was in a few weeks.

    Every thing went quiet over the holidays; people had all kinds of weird stuff at their desks from Halloween through Christmas. Then, in February, I was notified that I had to take everything down or I would be subject to disciplinary action (which is the slow boat to getting fired). After praying about it and seeking out counsel I decided to remove everything. Since then I have received a number of other fallacious complaints and accusations which I have just ignored. I knew when I put the stuff up that it might be offensive to my more liberal friends but I thought it might serve as a point of conversation.

    Anyway I haven’t lost much by removing the material. Everything on my cubical walls was written on my heart a long time ago. Really it’s the office that has lost something. Besides, I think my empty desk has stirred even more discussion than it did when it had my stuff all over it. It seems some people have noticed that it got a little darker in here.

  • http://lastdanceofthejackalope.blogspot.com JD Loofbourrow

    I was also just informed yesterday that this coming Monday everyone who supports the union should wear red as a show of solidarity in addition to honoring the memory of Martin Luther King Jr. who was assonated on April 4th. I actually don’t support the union because it generally holds views and values that are antithetical to mine. But I wonder, if I don’t wear red will I be labeled as a racist? Clever devils, those unioner’s. Does anyone know if Martin Luther King Jr.’s ethical persuasion would compel him to wear red in support of our liberal unions?

  • http://lastdanceofthejackalope.blogspot.com JD Loofbourrow

    I was also just informed yesterday that this coming Monday everyone who supports the union should wear red as a show of solidarity in addition to honoring the memory of Martin Luther King Jr. who was assonated on April 4th. I actually don’t support the union because it generally holds views and values that are antithetical to mine. But I wonder, if I don’t wear red will I be labeled as a racist? Clever devils, those unioner’s. Does anyone know if Martin Luther King Jr.’s ethical persuasion would compel him to wear red in support of our liberal unions?

  • Porcell

    Well, in a robust democracy among fallen men, we may hardly expect dispassionate debate. Since the time the country was founded, debate has been robust with frequent personal assaults against opponents.

    Our two greatest presidents, Washington and Lincoln, were subject to vicious criticism. Just recently George W. Bush was accused by the left of having stolen the 2000 election and lying that caused a lot of dying. Fortunately these men were strong and virtuous enough to withstand the vicious criticism and not respond in kind. In fact all of them proved their class against low men.

    Moralistic Christians need to understand the routineness of fallen men, including Christians themselves, involved in trying to destroy their opponents. Better this in a democratic society than in a repressive society where people fear to be outspoken.

  • Porcell

    Well, in a robust democracy among fallen men, we may hardly expect dispassionate debate. Since the time the country was founded, debate has been robust with frequent personal assaults against opponents.

    Our two greatest presidents, Washington and Lincoln, were subject to vicious criticism. Just recently George W. Bush was accused by the left of having stolen the 2000 election and lying that caused a lot of dying. Fortunately these men were strong and virtuous enough to withstand the vicious criticism and not respond in kind. In fact all of them proved their class against low men.

    Moralistic Christians need to understand the routineness of fallen men, including Christians themselves, involved in trying to destroy their opponents. Better this in a democratic society than in a repressive society where people fear to be outspoken.

  • Feldman

    I’m a Christian, yet I would not be comfortable working in an office in which another employee, particularly one with supervisory authority, had plaques of Bible verses or “christianly pictures” hanging about. But if would be helpful to know what verses Mr. Loofbourrow displayed or what constituted “christianly pictures.”
    Such items (notice the plural), I think, are posted chiefly to be seen by others; they shout, “Look at these; ask me about them so I can talk to you about my church!” A Christian’s work witness should be his character and work ethic; a more verbal witness can be made on breaks or at other times. I am sure that Mr. Loofbourrow maintains a good work witness and suspect he wanted only to accent it with his displays.
    As for the union issue, Mr. Loofbourrow’s opposition is probably already well known, thus his refusal to wear red on April 4 will come as no surprise. He doesn’t say that his negative views about unions have in any way impeded his career. But it’s unfortunate, in my opinion, that some, no doubt, see a connection between Mr. Loofbourrow’s desk signage and his union views, as if Christianity and labor unions are at odds.

  • Feldman

    I’m a Christian, yet I would not be comfortable working in an office in which another employee, particularly one with supervisory authority, had plaques of Bible verses or “christianly pictures” hanging about. But if would be helpful to know what verses Mr. Loofbourrow displayed or what constituted “christianly pictures.”
    Such items (notice the plural), I think, are posted chiefly to be seen by others; they shout, “Look at these; ask me about them so I can talk to you about my church!” A Christian’s work witness should be his character and work ethic; a more verbal witness can be made on breaks or at other times. I am sure that Mr. Loofbourrow maintains a good work witness and suspect he wanted only to accent it with his displays.
    As for the union issue, Mr. Loofbourrow’s opposition is probably already well known, thus his refusal to wear red on April 4 will come as no surprise. He doesn’t say that his negative views about unions have in any way impeded his career. But it’s unfortunate, in my opinion, that some, no doubt, see a connection between Mr. Loofbourrow’s desk signage and his union views, as if Christianity and labor unions are at odds.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Veith said:

    Postmodernists, remember, do not generally believe in reason. They think truth claims are nothing more than the imposition of power. Thus their personal animosity against people who disagree with them, who, they think, are trying to oppress them.

    Wait … are you talking about Media Matters or Fox News? Or maybe both?

    Oh, who am I kidding? We know the audience here. We’re only taking shots at Media Matters, right? Sure, sure, “both sides do it”, but Fox News is the patriotic news outlet, the one that Christians watch. No postmodernists there!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Veith said:

    Postmodernists, remember, do not generally believe in reason. They think truth claims are nothing more than the imposition of power. Thus their personal animosity against people who disagree with them, who, they think, are trying to oppress them.

    Wait … are you talking about Media Matters or Fox News? Or maybe both?

    Oh, who am I kidding? We know the audience here. We’re only taking shots at Media Matters, right? Sure, sure, “both sides do it”, but Fox News is the patriotic news outlet, the one that Christians watch. No postmodernists there!

  • Porcell

    I watch the Fox News Sunday program in which Brit Hume, Maura Eliason, Bill Kristol, and Juan Williams hold forth- two moderate conservatives, one moderate liberal and one died in the wool liberal, hold forth. The tone of the debate is usually moderate and balanced, unlike that of Media Matters.

    The notion that Fox News is a blatantly conservative outfit is a myth. The vicious Media Matters view is far more polemical than that of FoxNews. Jonah Goldberg’s book, Liberal Fascism, is relevant here . Todd’s attempt at relativism on this issue is fallacious.

  • Porcell

    I watch the Fox News Sunday program in which Brit Hume, Maura Eliason, Bill Kristol, and Juan Williams hold forth- two moderate conservatives, one moderate liberal and one died in the wool liberal, hold forth. The tone of the debate is usually moderate and balanced, unlike that of Media Matters.

    The notion that Fox News is a blatantly conservative outfit is a myth. The vicious Media Matters view is far more polemical than that of FoxNews. Jonah Goldberg’s book, Liberal Fascism, is relevant here . Todd’s attempt at relativism on this issue is fallacious.

  • Kirk

    @19 A network that makes Juan Williams look like a “dyed in the wool liberal” is pretty blatantly conservative.

  • Kirk

    @19 A network that makes Juan Williams look like a “dyed in the wool liberal” is pretty blatantly conservative.

  • http://lastdanceofthejackalope.blogspot.com JD Loofbourrow

    Feldman @ 17

    I’m sure you would fit in very nicely in my office.

    I’m not a sup. I’m the least of everyone here, the bottom grunt with no real education or status. My display was no more or less evangelistic (supposing that is a terrible thing to be in public) than the Buddhists or the sports men or those who favor President Obama’s values and it wasn’t infringing on any ones rights. But I agree that the strength of my witness is in the other actions you mentioned.

    As for the union issue I would think it unfortunate if they didn’t see a connection between my signage and my union views, because biblical Christianity and our labor union are morally at odds. I don’t support homosexual marriage or abortion (as my union does) because they are unbiblical and wrong. If my ethical foundation is separated from my moral activities then both end up being worthless.

  • http://lastdanceofthejackalope.blogspot.com JD Loofbourrow

    Feldman @ 17

    I’m sure you would fit in very nicely in my office.

    I’m not a sup. I’m the least of everyone here, the bottom grunt with no real education or status. My display was no more or less evangelistic (supposing that is a terrible thing to be in public) than the Buddhists or the sports men or those who favor President Obama’s values and it wasn’t infringing on any ones rights. But I agree that the strength of my witness is in the other actions you mentioned.

    As for the union issue I would think it unfortunate if they didn’t see a connection between my signage and my union views, because biblical Christianity and our labor union are morally at odds. I don’t support homosexual marriage or abortion (as my union does) because they are unbiblical and wrong. If my ethical foundation is separated from my moral activities then both end up being worthless.

  • Tom Hering

    Over the past couple of weeks, University of Wisconsin history professor William Cronon has been asking questions about our State GOP. And you’d think our State GOP – with its access to conservative think tanks – would find someone to respond in a reasoned way to professor Cronon. But no. They’ve filed an FOIA for anything in his university e-mail account that references “Walker, unions, protests, etc.” No doubt looking for evidence that Cronon has acted improperly in his position – though there hasn’t been the least hint that he has. He’s only spoken publicly as a citizen and a scholar.

    Now a conservative Michigan think tank has filed FOIAs for the e-mails of professors in the labor relations programs of three Michigan universities. Again, without the least hint they’ve done anything improper.

    Refuse to keep quiet, and openly question the Radical Right’s agenda intellectually, and they’ll make you sweat legally.

  • Tom Hering

    Over the past couple of weeks, University of Wisconsin history professor William Cronon has been asking questions about our State GOP. And you’d think our State GOP – with its access to conservative think tanks – would find someone to respond in a reasoned way to professor Cronon. But no. They’ve filed an FOIA for anything in his university e-mail account that references “Walker, unions, protests, etc.” No doubt looking for evidence that Cronon has acted improperly in his position – though there hasn’t been the least hint that he has. He’s only spoken publicly as a citizen and a scholar.

    Now a conservative Michigan think tank has filed FOIAs for the e-mails of professors in the labor relations programs of three Michigan universities. Again, without the least hint they’ve done anything improper.

    Refuse to keep quiet, and openly question the Radical Right’s agenda intellectually, and they’ll make you sweat legally.

  • Porcell

    Tom, at 22, You might have a look at Christian Schneider’s NRO piece Professor Cronon’s Weak Cases including:

    Although he concedes the tautology that Scott Walker is not Joe McCarthy, he goes on to compare the two, simply to be able to shoehorn the two names together into the same paragraph.

    Isn’t there a word for unfairly smearing your political opponents by connecting them to unpopular political figures?

    Oh, yeah: “McCarthyism.”

    Have you no sense of irony, sir?

    In fact, comparing Walker to McCarthy would be a rather perfect example of a liberal slur.

  • Porcell

    Tom, at 22, You might have a look at Christian Schneider’s NRO piece Professor Cronon’s Weak Cases including:

    Although he concedes the tautology that Scott Walker is not Joe McCarthy, he goes on to compare the two, simply to be able to shoehorn the two names together into the same paragraph.

    Isn’t there a word for unfairly smearing your political opponents by connecting them to unpopular political figures?

    Oh, yeah: “McCarthyism.”

    Have you no sense of irony, sir?

    In fact, comparing Walker to McCarthy would be a rather perfect example of a liberal slur.

  • helen

    JDL @ 21
    Wear a loop of red ribbon. There must be some “cause” that uses red among the mass of ribbons out there, but in any case you will have “worn red”.

  • helen

    JDL @ 21
    Wear a loop of red ribbon. There must be some “cause” that uses red among the mass of ribbons out there, but in any case you will have “worn red”.

  • Carl Vehse

    Given the death threats against Walker on protestors signs and posted on the internet and facebook, checking some email accounts is certainly reasonable. And since the professors are public employees, the contents of their university emails (though not private email accounts) may fall under the FOIA. The courts will probably get involved. Law firms will get rich.

  • Carl Vehse

    Given the death threats against Walker on protestors signs and posted on the internet and facebook, checking some email accounts is certainly reasonable. And since the professors are public employees, the contents of their university emails (though not private email accounts) may fall under the FOIA. The courts will probably get involved. Law firms will get rich.

  • Kirk

    @Carl, but is it reasonable when the death threats aren’t coming from the professors? And is it reasonable for someone other than Walker or the State Police to be requesting FOIAs? I mean, I’m a public employee and I’m personally in favor of collective bargaining rights. I’ve not made any death threats and I’m not involved with any groups that have. Should you FOIA my email?

    Let’s be honest, it’s simple intimidation. You can still be a good republican and a committed hater of unions while still acknowledging that.

  • Kirk

    @Carl, but is it reasonable when the death threats aren’t coming from the professors? And is it reasonable for someone other than Walker or the State Police to be requesting FOIAs? I mean, I’m a public employee and I’m personally in favor of collective bargaining rights. I’ve not made any death threats and I’m not involved with any groups that have. Should you FOIA my email?

    Let’s be honest, it’s simple intimidation. You can still be a good republican and a committed hater of unions while still acknowledging that.

  • Carl Vehse

    Excerpted from “WSEU circulating boycott letters“:

    Members of Wisconsin State Employees Union, AFSCME Council 24, have begun circulating letters to businesses in southeast Wisconsin, asking them to support workers’ rights by putting up a sign in their windows.

    If businesses fail to comply, the letter says, “Failure to do so will leave us no choice but (to) do a public boycott of your business. And sorry, neutral means ‘no’ to those who work for the largest employer in the area and are union members.”

    We’ve heard these kinds of organized crime threats before.

  • Carl Vehse

    Excerpted from “WSEU circulating boycott letters“:

    Members of Wisconsin State Employees Union, AFSCME Council 24, have begun circulating letters to businesses in southeast Wisconsin, asking them to support workers’ rights by putting up a sign in their windows.

    If businesses fail to comply, the letter says, “Failure to do so will leave us no choice but (to) do a public boycott of your business. And sorry, neutral means ‘no’ to those who work for the largest employer in the area and are union members.”

    We’ve heard these kinds of organized crime threats before.

  • Kirk

    @23,

    The question isn’t whether Cronon is making a strong case against Walker or not. The question is whether his professional email should be FOIA’d simply because he’s pro-union. And the other question is what legitimate interest the State GOP has in that.

  • Kirk

    @23,

    The question isn’t whether Cronon is making a strong case against Walker or not. The question is whether his professional email should be FOIA’d simply because he’s pro-union. And the other question is what legitimate interest the State GOP has in that.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk@26 and Tom@22: According to Wisconsin’s particular FOIA provisions, professors and academic staff at public universities are considered public employees, and are thus obligated to comply with FOIA requests. Furthermore, Wisconsin FOIA requests require no justification whatsoever. Thus, by the letter of the law, the conservative groups lodging the request against Cronon are completely within their rights and Cronon must comply or face legal penalties.

    That said, I have no idea why an FOIA request for Cronon’s correspondence is at all necessary (again, though, those requesting have no obligation to demonstrate that it is necessary), and I further disagree that academic faculty at public universities should be considered public employees in the same way that elected officers and, say, police officers are.

    p.s. Kirk, are you really in favor of collective bargaining for public employees?!

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk@26 and Tom@22: According to Wisconsin’s particular FOIA provisions, professors and academic staff at public universities are considered public employees, and are thus obligated to comply with FOIA requests. Furthermore, Wisconsin FOIA requests require no justification whatsoever. Thus, by the letter of the law, the conservative groups lodging the request against Cronon are completely within their rights and Cronon must comply or face legal penalties.

    That said, I have no idea why an FOIA request for Cronon’s correspondence is at all necessary (again, though, those requesting have no obligation to demonstrate that it is necessary), and I further disagree that academic faculty at public universities should be considered public employees in the same way that elected officers and, say, police officers are.

    p.s. Kirk, are you really in favor of collective bargaining for public employees?!

  • Carl Vehse

    Kirk: “is it reasonable when the death threats aren’t coming from the professors?

    I’m sure the folks who are filling out all those FOIA request forms would be glad to have such information on how you know this so they don’t spend all that time and expense on forms for people they don’t need to check. Even so, a professor’s accounts may contain emails received from others which indicate who made such threats.

  • Carl Vehse

    Kirk: “is it reasonable when the death threats aren’t coming from the professors?

    I’m sure the folks who are filling out all those FOIA request forms would be glad to have such information on how you know this so they don’t spend all that time and expense on forms for people they don’t need to check. Even so, a professor’s accounts may contain emails received from others which indicate who made such threats.

  • Matt

    There’s a vast difference between the authoritarian and libertarian brands of conservatism. Unfortunately, those on the authoritarian side are always professedly libertarian. Until someone gets in their way. See, e.g., @27, 30.

  • Matt

    There’s a vast difference between the authoritarian and libertarian brands of conservatism. Unfortunately, those on the authoritarian side are always professedly libertarian. Until someone gets in their way. See, e.g., @27, 30.

  • Kirk

    @29 I’m not concerned with the legality of the FOIA, I’m concerned with the principle of requesting one, especially when it’s being done by a state party in regards to a political opinion.

    And yes, I think that all employees should have the right to address their benefits and salaries. I also think that removing collective bargaining would make quality individuals reticent to take state jobs and would thereby reduce the efficacy of state institutions. That being said, I think that most public unions, particularly teachers unions and police fraternal orders are awful. But, in the Wisconsin case, the unions actually agreed that their employees should take cuts to pay and benefit, in accordance with what the Governor stated. I don’t see how collective bargaining plays into balancing the state budget this year.

    @Carl, if there was actual evidence that the professors had been in contact with people making threats, then I might agree with you. But from what anyone has said, there isn’t. Besides, you still have the issue of the State GOP being a disinterested party. If Walker’s safety was the actual concern, then the state police (the organization charged with protecting the governor) or the governor’s office itself would have subpoena’d the information.

    I trust that you’d be completely outraged if some state Democratic party officials were subpoenaing the emails of some creationist professors because he opposes abortion.

  • Kirk

    @29 I’m not concerned with the legality of the FOIA, I’m concerned with the principle of requesting one, especially when it’s being done by a state party in regards to a political opinion.

    And yes, I think that all employees should have the right to address their benefits and salaries. I also think that removing collective bargaining would make quality individuals reticent to take state jobs and would thereby reduce the efficacy of state institutions. That being said, I think that most public unions, particularly teachers unions and police fraternal orders are awful. But, in the Wisconsin case, the unions actually agreed that their employees should take cuts to pay and benefit, in accordance with what the Governor stated. I don’t see how collective bargaining plays into balancing the state budget this year.

    @Carl, if there was actual evidence that the professors had been in contact with people making threats, then I might agree with you. But from what anyone has said, there isn’t. Besides, you still have the issue of the State GOP being a disinterested party. If Walker’s safety was the actual concern, then the state police (the organization charged with protecting the governor) or the governor’s office itself would have subpoena’d the information.

    I trust that you’d be completely outraged if some state Democratic party officials were subpoenaing the emails of some creationist professors because he opposes abortion.

  • Porcell

    Interesting that the union thugs who get off with constantly vicious tactics, including the flashing of Nazi signs and other ways of ubiquitously smearing of Gov. Walker, are claiming the civil right of college professors to have private public e-mail accounts.

  • Porcell

    Interesting that the union thugs who get off with constantly vicious tactics, including the flashing of Nazi signs and other ways of ubiquitously smearing of Gov. Walker, are claiming the civil right of college professors to have private public e-mail accounts.

  • Carl Vehse

    Subpoenaed information versus information obtained through FOIA are two separate issues, as Cincinnatus @29 pointed out to you. A state criminal investigation will use the former. You’ll have to ask the GOP why they are using the latter.

  • Carl Vehse

    Subpoenaed information versus information obtained through FOIA are two separate issues, as Cincinnatus @29 pointed out to you. A state criminal investigation will use the former. You’ll have to ask the GOP why they are using the latter.

  • Carl Vehse

    Union thugs (or university students or staff) displaying signs showing Walker with a Hitler moustache are not doing anything illegal. The legality of displaying signs with obscenities will depend on local statutes. When these people threaten verbally or physically to injure or kill Walker or a GOP state legislator, they do break the law.

  • Carl Vehse

    Union thugs (or university students or staff) displaying signs showing Walker with a Hitler moustache are not doing anything illegal. The legality of displaying signs with obscenities will depend on local statutes. When these people threaten verbally or physically to injure or kill Walker or a GOP state legislator, they do break the law.

  • DonS

    Those who complain that their private (though legally public) emails should be politically off-limits should refrain from protesting at private residences.

  • DonS

    Those who complain that their private (though legally public) emails should be politically off-limits should refrain from protesting at private residences.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk, since the discussion has been held elsewhere, suffice to say that I disagree strongly with the necessity or advisability of public-sector collective bargaining units (and it’s just false to say that “good” employees are discouraged from public employment due to the lack of unions; unless Virginia, which outlaws public-sector unions is one of the most well-managed states in the Union by coincidence). We’ll agree to disagree on that one.

    Meanwhile, as I noted above, I’m rather mixed on the FOIA request lodged against–on? for? toward?–Cronon. I don’t think that faculty should be considered “government employees” in the same sense as the Governor, for instance, and I’m not entirely sold on the idea that FOIA requests require no justification whatsoever. But both facts are true, and it’s probably best that way (consider the alternative of requiring a specific “worthy” justification for FOIA requests: not preferable, IMO). But both facts are true.

    And consider this: I don’t know what the motives are of the think tanks that lodged this request. Perhaps they wish to intimidate academic opponents and “chill” the “excesses” of academic freedom. Perhaps they just want to make a statement. But, according to state law, state employees–including faculty–are expressly prohibited from using state resources, including state email addresses (in this case, his “.edu” email address) for partisan political activities. So if a search of his email correspondence reveals that Cronon was spending significant time and money (i.e., state resources in the form of email servers, electricity, office space, etc.) to engage in a political campaign against Republicans, then he is in explicit violation of state law. So there may very well be wrongdoing here. In fact, I will not be surprised in the least if such “wrongdoing” is discovered. The history department at Wisconsin (with one notable exception who I am proud to call my acquaintance) is a wildly partisan, progressive (nay, Marxist) department.

    Should such “wrongdoing” really be considered “wrongdoing”? Well, it certainly would be for other state workers. So I suppose it depends upon whether you think faculty at public universities are actually state employees of the same sort. Like I said, I’m highly committed to academic freedom, so I’m torn on this issue. But it is more nuanced than a simple case of “OMG STUPID REPUBLICANS TRYING TO INTIMIDATE THE OPPOSITION.”

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk, since the discussion has been held elsewhere, suffice to say that I disagree strongly with the necessity or advisability of public-sector collective bargaining units (and it’s just false to say that “good” employees are discouraged from public employment due to the lack of unions; unless Virginia, which outlaws public-sector unions is one of the most well-managed states in the Union by coincidence). We’ll agree to disagree on that one.

    Meanwhile, as I noted above, I’m rather mixed on the FOIA request lodged against–on? for? toward?–Cronon. I don’t think that faculty should be considered “government employees” in the same sense as the Governor, for instance, and I’m not entirely sold on the idea that FOIA requests require no justification whatsoever. But both facts are true, and it’s probably best that way (consider the alternative of requiring a specific “worthy” justification for FOIA requests: not preferable, IMO). But both facts are true.

    And consider this: I don’t know what the motives are of the think tanks that lodged this request. Perhaps they wish to intimidate academic opponents and “chill” the “excesses” of academic freedom. Perhaps they just want to make a statement. But, according to state law, state employees–including faculty–are expressly prohibited from using state resources, including state email addresses (in this case, his “.edu” email address) for partisan political activities. So if a search of his email correspondence reveals that Cronon was spending significant time and money (i.e., state resources in the form of email servers, electricity, office space, etc.) to engage in a political campaign against Republicans, then he is in explicit violation of state law. So there may very well be wrongdoing here. In fact, I will not be surprised in the least if such “wrongdoing” is discovered. The history department at Wisconsin (with one notable exception who I am proud to call my acquaintance) is a wildly partisan, progressive (nay, Marxist) department.

    Should such “wrongdoing” really be considered “wrongdoing”? Well, it certainly would be for other state workers. So I suppose it depends upon whether you think faculty at public universities are actually state employees of the same sort. Like I said, I’m highly committed to academic freedom, so I’m torn on this issue. But it is more nuanced than a simple case of “OMG STUPID REPUBLICANS TRYING TO INTIMIDATE THE OPPOSITION.”

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, FOIA’s are standard operating procedure–in Wisconsin politics and elsewhere. It’s an expected tactic that political candidates will use FOIA requests to dig up dirt on their incumbent opponents, and they do it all the time. So the Republicans in this case have done something that is neither drastic nor unprecedented.

    The questions, then, are whether a) this actually problematic and b) what is the alternative?

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, FOIA’s are standard operating procedure–in Wisconsin politics and elsewhere. It’s an expected tactic that political candidates will use FOIA requests to dig up dirt on their incumbent opponents, and they do it all the time. So the Republicans in this case have done something that is neither drastic nor unprecedented.

    The questions, then, are whether a) this actually problematic and b) what is the alternative?

  • Booklover

    Yes, tODD @18, I agree that both sides display personal animosity towards people who disagree with them. I never understood how some members of the right were flabbergasted when Sarah Palin was ridiculed; yet they had been ridiculing Hilary Clinton et. al. for years. I wonder if it is possible to attack their views without attacking their looks or family or other unimportant matters.

  • Booklover

    Yes, tODD @18, I agree that both sides display personal animosity towards people who disagree with them. I never understood how some members of the right were flabbergasted when Sarah Palin was ridiculed; yet they had been ridiculing Hilary Clinton et. al. for years. I wonder if it is possible to attack their views without attacking their looks or family or other unimportant matters.

  • helen

    I am on staff at a university library. We are e-mailed a reminder a couple of times a year that our own e-mails are not private.
    I really don’t think anyone would bother with my level but I have told friends to stop subscribing me to their favorite political list.

  • helen

    I am on staff at a university library. We are e-mailed a reminder a couple of times a year that our own e-mails are not private.
    I really don’t think anyone would bother with my level but I have told friends to stop subscribing me to their favorite political list.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    The better question is this:

    Where are there examples of this sort of behavior being met with aggressive behavior in the other direction , as in:

    “defend [your enemy], speak well of [your enemy], and put the best possible interpretation on the words and deeds of [your enemy].

    And do this all in the most over the top spirit of the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Or we could go with Kerner´s posturing as a legalist legal eagle and say this:

    that if the letter of the Law found in the 10 commandments is kept, then we can know that God´s Divinely Revealed righeousness is being done even if reason and the Golden Rule are screaming at us that the reality is otherwise……

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    The better question is this:

    Where are there examples of this sort of behavior being met with aggressive behavior in the other direction , as in:

    “defend [your enemy], speak well of [your enemy], and put the best possible interpretation on the words and deeds of [your enemy].

    And do this all in the most over the top spirit of the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    Or we could go with Kerner´s posturing as a legalist legal eagle and say this:

    that if the letter of the Law found in the 10 commandments is kept, then we can know that God´s Divinely Revealed righeousness is being done even if reason and the Golden Rule are screaming at us that the reality is otherwise……

  • Tom Hering

    As to why the the Wisconsin Republican Party filed an FOIA for Cronon’s emails, executive director Mark Jefferson stated, “Taxpayers have a right to accountable government and a right to know if public officials are conducting themselves in an ethical manner.” True enough. But professor Cronon has no government power, and leading up to the FOIA, wasn’t suspected of doing anything other than authoring a blog and an op-ed … that raised questions about the State GOP.

  • Tom Hering

    As to why the the Wisconsin Republican Party filed an FOIA for Cronon’s emails, executive director Mark Jefferson stated, “Taxpayers have a right to accountable government and a right to know if public officials are conducting themselves in an ethical manner.” True enough. But professor Cronon has no government power, and leading up to the FOIA, wasn’t suspected of doing anything other than authoring a blog and an op-ed … that raised questions about the State GOP.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Tom @ 42

    “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.

    But let´s go with our legal eagle Kerner´s idea that we must believe that God´s Divine Righteousness and Justice is being done if we have proof that the Letter of the 10 commandments is being followed:

    The ruling then is that
    a) nothing illegal is being done.
    b) we are to believe that the GOP is love, love, loving that professor and
    c) God is really pleased with the actions of the GOP, and finally the kicker
    d) We are to ignore the judgement of reason informed by the Golden Rule in favor of faith , in God, that b) and c) are indeed the true, non-post-modernist, reality of things.
    e) Applying reason informed by the Golden Rule would , by definition mean the jettisoning of the Word of God as being Unchangable and the Anchor of all neighbor to neighbor morality. It would mean the very end of a moral society. It would be dangerous to do that.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    Tom @ 42

    “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.

    But let´s go with our legal eagle Kerner´s idea that we must believe that God´s Divine Righteousness and Justice is being done if we have proof that the Letter of the 10 commandments is being followed:

    The ruling then is that
    a) nothing illegal is being done.
    b) we are to believe that the GOP is love, love, loving that professor and
    c) God is really pleased with the actions of the GOP, and finally the kicker
    d) We are to ignore the judgement of reason informed by the Golden Rule in favor of faith , in God, that b) and c) are indeed the true, non-post-modernist, reality of things.
    e) Applying reason informed by the Golden Rule would , by definition mean the jettisoning of the Word of God as being Unchangable and the Anchor of all neighbor to neighbor morality. It would mean the very end of a moral society. It would be dangerous to do that.

  • Tom Hering

    Feeling a little sarcastic this morning, Frank? :-D (By the way, did the coffee ever arrive?)

  • Tom Hering

    Feeling a little sarcastic this morning, Frank? :-D (By the way, did the coffee ever arrive?)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom @ 44

    The coffee, I think, has arrived. I need to take a bus trip out to customs to get it! Thanks! :) I have still to mail off about 7-8 christmas presents because it is gonna cost me about $US30 per item to mail. Mail is expensive here! So they will probably be easter presents. But what I got is appropriate for any season of our Christian Calendar. so…. ;)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom @ 44

    The coffee, I think, has arrived. I need to take a bus trip out to customs to get it! Thanks! :) I have still to mail off about 7-8 christmas presents because it is gonna cost me about $US30 per item to mail. Mail is expensive here! So they will probably be easter presents. But what I got is appropriate for any season of our Christian Calendar. so…. ;)

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom Hering @44

    Actually not sarcasm. I dont really believe Kerner would push the idea he is presenting to that extreme. But this post let´s me present the same ideas in a place that might enable Kerner to consider the same basic broad ideas outside the idea of what people do with their sex organs.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom Hering @44

    Actually not sarcasm. I dont really believe Kerner would push the idea he is presenting to that extreme. But this post let´s me present the same ideas in a place that might enable Kerner to consider the same basic broad ideas outside the idea of what people do with their sex organs.

  • Tom Hering

    “… what people do with their sex organs.”

    Aha! So all those lustful thoughts are created in our minds by that big instrument in church. I knew it!

  • Tom Hering

    “… what people do with their sex organs.”

    Aha! So all those lustful thoughts are created in our minds by that big instrument in church. I knew it!

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom @ 47

    that is SEX organs young man. Not the “SAXiphone” setting on the church organ.

    Get your mind out of the gutter.

    Why do you seem to always think homos fixate on church music?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom @ 47

    that is SEX organs young man. Not the “SAXiphone” setting on the church organ.

    Get your mind out of the gutter.

    Why do you seem to always think homos fixate on church music?

  • Tom Hering

    “Why do you seem to always think homos fixate on church music?”

    Because it’s all “hims”?

  • Tom Hering

    “Why do you seem to always think homos fixate on church music?”

    Because it’s all “hims”?

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom hering @49

    I defy your logic. You keep coming back at me with more.

    I surrender.

  • http://www.thirduse.com fws

    tom hering @49

    I defy your logic. You keep coming back at me with more.

    I surrender.

  • WebMonk

    Tom you have my very literally LOL!

    fws, you guys are brilliant together, ever consider putting together a comedy show? If I had been drinking, you two would have had me cleaning off my monitor right now!

  • WebMonk

    Tom you have my very literally LOL!

    fws, you guys are brilliant together, ever consider putting together a comedy show? If I had been drinking, you two would have had me cleaning off my monitor right now!

  • Tom Hering

    “… you two would have had me cleaning off my monitor right now!”

    But only Frank would have been dressed in latex, and wielding a whip to make you do it.

  • Tom Hering

    “… you two would have had me cleaning off my monitor right now!”

    But only Frank would have been dressed in latex, and wielding a whip to make you do it.

  • fws

    whips and latex? naw. I sweat too much for latex. and I gave up whips in my 20s when I stopped bein a cowboy.

    I would probably serve some fresh dunkin donuts coffee! And try to sound perky as I encourage web monk to not miss that little spot over in the left corner…. ah… there he got it! … and…

    give him pointers on how is place could use a snazzy makeover. You know… “Queer eye for the Lutheran guy” or somn like that….

  • fws

    whips and latex? naw. I sweat too much for latex. and I gave up whips in my 20s when I stopped bein a cowboy.

    I would probably serve some fresh dunkin donuts coffee! And try to sound perky as I encourage web monk to not miss that little spot over in the left corner…. ah… there he got it! … and…

    give him pointers on how is place could use a snazzy makeover. You know… “Queer eye for the Lutheran guy” or somn like that….

  • fws

    where but on Cranach……

  • fws

    where but on Cranach……

  • Tom Hering

    Where but on Cranach? On usual place. Behind. Why you ask? Him dead anyhow.

  • Tom Hering

    Where but on Cranach? On usual place. Behind. Why you ask? Him dead anyhow.


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