Harold Camping speaks

I was afraid Harold Camping would disappear, making it look like he, at least, was raptured on Saturday, even if he was the only one.  But he showed up and made a statement:

“It has been a really tough weekend,” said Harold Camping, the 89-year-old fundamentalist radio preacher who convinced hundreds of his followers that the rapture would occur on Saturday at 6 p.m.

Massive earthquakes would strike, he said. Believers would ascend to heaven and the rest would be left to wander a godforsaken planet until Oct. 21, when Camping promised a fiery end to the world.

But today, almost 18 hours after he thought he’d be in Heaven, there was Camping, “flabbergasted” in Alameda, wearing tan slacks, a tucked-in polo shirt and a light jacket.

Birds chirped. A gentle breeze blew. Across the street, neighbors focused on their yard work and the latest neighborhood gossip.

“I’m looking for answers,” Camping said, adding that meant frequent prayer and consultations with friends.

“But now I have nothing else to say,” he said, closing the door to his home. “I’ll be back to work Monday and will say more then.”

via Harold Camping “flabbergasted” world didn’t end.

As I expected, the failure of the Rapture to take place when Camping predicted has been the occasion for all kinds of snarky comments in the media and the blogosphere making fun of Christians.  Never mind that Camping in one of his other doctrines that he has made up repudiates ALL churches, saying that this is no longer the dispensation of the church and that all churches have become apostate.   By Biblical standards, which labels even one prophecy that does not come true as the mark of a false prophet, no one should believe anything this guy says (Deuteronomy 13).

When we first blogged about this prophecy over a year ago, some of his followers chimed in and defended him.   I’d love to hear from them now.  I’d like to ask, do you still believe in his teachings now?  On what grounds?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Michael Lynch

    I made this prediction on the Friday post: Camping will admit he was partially wrong. He was wrong about the rapture of course, but judgement HAS started. Believers will have to go through it and then the October date still stands. It will all be wrapped up then–the actual end of the world and rapture and resurrection. Also, no one will be saved during this time since that was part of the original prediction (he also says that was the case between 1988 and 1994). I hope I’m wrong. I hope he repents. I hope his followers repent and head back to Bible believing churches. (It would also be nice to see the joking end in the comments of this blog. These poor folks need to see love, not sarcasm.)

  • Michael Lynch

    I made this prediction on the Friday post: Camping will admit he was partially wrong. He was wrong about the rapture of course, but judgement HAS started. Believers will have to go through it and then the October date still stands. It will all be wrapped up then–the actual end of the world and rapture and resurrection. Also, no one will be saved during this time since that was part of the original prediction (he also says that was the case between 1988 and 1994). I hope I’m wrong. I hope he repents. I hope his followers repent and head back to Bible believing churches. (It would also be nice to see the joking end in the comments of this blog. These poor folks need to see love, not sarcasm.)

  • SKPeterson

    Gospel this Sunday (3-year) was John 14: 1-14. That’s a pretty good encapsulation of what we can look forward to. And, 15 and 16 lays out that the tribulations of believers will begin right about the time of the crucifixion.

  • SKPeterson

    Gospel this Sunday (3-year) was John 14: 1-14. That’s a pretty good encapsulation of what we can look forward to. And, 15 and 16 lays out that the tribulations of believers will begin right about the time of the crucifixion.

  • Michael Lynch

    A good article.
    http://www.dennyburk.com/not-sitting-in-the-seat-of-scoffers/
    We SHOULD be making it known that Camping does not represent us, but we SHOULD NOT be sitting it the seat of scoffers. I expect to hear the truth ridiculed along with Camping’s false teaching today when I go into work. It should be a good opportunity to show truth from falsehood. However, I expect to have that truth ridiculed as well.

  • Michael Lynch

    A good article.
    http://www.dennyburk.com/not-sitting-in-the-seat-of-scoffers/
    We SHOULD be making it known that Camping does not represent us, but we SHOULD NOT be sitting it the seat of scoffers. I expect to hear the truth ridiculed along with Camping’s false teaching today when I go into work. It should be a good opportunity to show truth from falsehood. However, I expect to have that truth ridiculed as well.

  • Tom Hering

    Yes, the world scoffs at the idea of a Judgment. But Christians scoff at a man who claims to know what the Bible clearly says no man can know. And that’s your “teaching moment” with unbelievers: Camping was wrong and the Bible was right.

    It’s also your “teaching moment” with Camping’s followers. But I’m afraid they’re going to prove harder to reach than unbelievers. Many are already excusing Camping’s error, and plan to continue listening to him because – overall, they say – he has “the right approach.” Which I guess means they like the way he tickles their ears.

  • Tom Hering

    Yes, the world scoffs at the idea of a Judgment. But Christians scoff at a man who claims to know what the Bible clearly says no man can know. And that’s your “teaching moment” with unbelievers: Camping was wrong and the Bible was right.

    It’s also your “teaching moment” with Camping’s followers. But I’m afraid they’re going to prove harder to reach than unbelievers. Many are already excusing Camping’s error, and plan to continue listening to him because – overall, they say – he has “the right approach.” Which I guess means they like the way he tickles their ears.

  • larry

    Tom’s spot on.

    The fact that the bible predicts such false teachers and teachings does not falsify it but confirms it. However, is we don’t say “He IS false teacher” and sugar coat it, then it is WE who are setting Scripture up to look false which predicts it.

    I.e. when we sugar coat this stuff as “he had the right idea, heart in the right place, ‘mostly Christian’, has some ‘Christian stuff mixed in’ and don’t call it black and white; we make the prophesies of the bible so plentiously recorded therein about false teachers and teachings more or less invisible. Thus, we only serve to keep people in their rejecting the Scriptures on the same basis, “false teachers where are all these false doctrines and teachers the bible speaks of since you say, ‘well they are mostly Christian just a bit off’”.

    And by extension as time progresses and false teachings geometrically multiply, by hiding them from what they are, these increasing signs that there will in fact be a judgment day ever closer now than X moments ago, become no sign at all and thus they scoff, “where is the promise of his coming”.

    The great irony of Camping and his end times false and demonic doctrine is that it is he and his doctrine that are an explicit sign of the end, the judgment, in the unknowable future.

  • larry

    Tom’s spot on.

    The fact that the bible predicts such false teachers and teachings does not falsify it but confirms it. However, is we don’t say “He IS false teacher” and sugar coat it, then it is WE who are setting Scripture up to look false which predicts it.

    I.e. when we sugar coat this stuff as “he had the right idea, heart in the right place, ‘mostly Christian’, has some ‘Christian stuff mixed in’ and don’t call it black and white; we make the prophesies of the bible so plentiously recorded therein about false teachers and teachings more or less invisible. Thus, we only serve to keep people in their rejecting the Scriptures on the same basis, “false teachers where are all these false doctrines and teachers the bible speaks of since you say, ‘well they are mostly Christian just a bit off’”.

    And by extension as time progresses and false teachings geometrically multiply, by hiding them from what they are, these increasing signs that there will in fact be a judgment day ever closer now than X moments ago, become no sign at all and thus they scoff, “where is the promise of his coming”.

    The great irony of Camping and his end times false and demonic doctrine is that it is he and his doctrine that are an explicit sign of the end, the judgment, in the unknowable future.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    As a part of our prayers this weekend, we prayed for all the people who were hurt by the false prophet Camping. We expressed our hope that they would receive the good news that true comfort comes in the death and resurrection of Christ, not in being whisked away from their troubles.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in 21st Century

    As a part of our prayers this weekend, we prayed for all the people who were hurt by the false prophet Camping. We expressed our hope that they would receive the good news that true comfort comes in the death and resurrection of Christ, not in being whisked away from their troubles.

  • Booklover

    @1. . .

    Does this sound better?

    “The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. . .As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”
    –St. Paul

  • Booklover

    @1. . .

    Does this sound better?

    “The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. . .As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”
    –St. Paul

  • Michael Lynch

    Actually, it does. Notice what I said. I’d like to see the joking and sarcasm end. We need to speak the truth in love–even if what is spoken are hard words. That is what will bring about Godly grief which leads to repentence, not poking fun.

  • Michael Lynch

    Actually, it does. Notice what I said. I’d like to see the joking and sarcasm end. We need to speak the truth in love–even if what is spoken are hard words. That is what will bring about Godly grief which leads to repentence, not poking fun.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Michael (@3), you seem to have concluded from the article at that link (and, by extension, 2 Peter 3) that the act of mocking/scoffing itself is wrong. You also allude to Psalm 1 in such a way.

    Here’s the thing. As others have already shown, godly people are certainly found mocking heresy (and in far more scathing terms than have been found in the comments on this blog!) in Scripture. What the passages mentioned above depict is the mockery and scoffing of unbelievers. As such — and, as usual — the problem is unbelief, not a particular rhetorical approach.

    Which isn’t to say that mockery is always the wisest approach when dealing with Campingites or their ilk. No doubt, many of them right now could use a very gentle approach. But then, that makes this a question of wisdom, not of right or wrong.

    Of course, we also must realize to whom we are talking. And, frankly, I kind of doubt that Campingites are paying attention to this discussion right now. They came and dabbled on this blog when Camping’s predictions were first mentioned — I’m willing to bet they had Google Alerts set up to inform them of such discussions. But I suspect they’re not really feeling up to such engagement right now.

    So if we’re talking to non-Campingite Christians, is it wrong to send an unambiguous message that Camping was promoting heresy? Mocking his prediction certainly sends that message. And it still lets him off the hook more easily than if he were subjected to the law of the Israelites!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Michael (@3), you seem to have concluded from the article at that link (and, by extension, 2 Peter 3) that the act of mocking/scoffing itself is wrong. You also allude to Psalm 1 in such a way.

    Here’s the thing. As others have already shown, godly people are certainly found mocking heresy (and in far more scathing terms than have been found in the comments on this blog!) in Scripture. What the passages mentioned above depict is the mockery and scoffing of unbelievers. As such — and, as usual — the problem is unbelief, not a particular rhetorical approach.

    Which isn’t to say that mockery is always the wisest approach when dealing with Campingites or their ilk. No doubt, many of them right now could use a very gentle approach. But then, that makes this a question of wisdom, not of right or wrong.

    Of course, we also must realize to whom we are talking. And, frankly, I kind of doubt that Campingites are paying attention to this discussion right now. They came and dabbled on this blog when Camping’s predictions were first mentioned — I’m willing to bet they had Google Alerts set up to inform them of such discussions. But I suspect they’re not really feeling up to such engagement right now.

    So if we’re talking to non-Campingite Christians, is it wrong to send an unambiguous message that Camping was promoting heresy? Mocking his prediction certainly sends that message. And it still lets him off the hook more easily than if he were subjected to the law of the Israelites!

  • Grace

    Michael Lynch

    “Actually, it does. Notice what I said. I’d like to see the joking and sarcasm end. We need to speak the truth in love–even if what is spoken are hard words. That is what will bring about Godly grief which leads to repentence, not poking fun.”

    The individual who made this prophecy, has made others, that have not taken place. His following does not include the many people who DO believe in a Rapture of the church, but most certainly are not give a DATE on which it will occur.

    The jeering and joking among fellow believers is troubling…. those who believed Camping need prayer, and so does Harold Camping. The entire world needs prayer, all one needs to do is look about and see the pain and distruction of fallen man, there is but one answer Christ as Savior, there is no other. The problem is; people don’t study their Bibles, but instead depend upon a ‘man’ to light their way.

  • Grace

    Michael Lynch

    “Actually, it does. Notice what I said. I’d like to see the joking and sarcasm end. We need to speak the truth in love–even if what is spoken are hard words. That is what will bring about Godly grief which leads to repentence, not poking fun.”

    The individual who made this prophecy, has made others, that have not taken place. His following does not include the many people who DO believe in a Rapture of the church, but most certainly are not give a DATE on which it will occur.

    The jeering and joking among fellow believers is troubling…. those who believed Camping need prayer, and so does Harold Camping. The entire world needs prayer, all one needs to do is look about and see the pain and distruction of fallen man, there is but one answer Christ as Savior, there is no other. The problem is; people don’t study their Bibles, but instead depend upon a ‘man’ to light their way.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@10):

    The problem is; people don’t study their Bibles, but instead depend upon a ‘man’ to light their way.

    Camping’s problem wasn’t that he “didn’t study his Bible”, as such — it’s clear from his references to it that he did. He’s a fairly good example of how a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself. He used his reason to ignore the plain words of Scripture, thinking that he was more clever than God’s Word.

    Is it any coincidence that Camping explicitly divorced himself from the historical Church, declaring all current denominations to be apostate … only to find himself actually being the apostate one?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@10):

    The problem is; people don’t study their Bibles, but instead depend upon a ‘man’ to light their way.

    Camping’s problem wasn’t that he “didn’t study his Bible”, as such — it’s clear from his references to it that he did. He’s a fairly good example of how a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself. He used his reason to ignore the plain words of Scripture, thinking that he was more clever than God’s Word.

    Is it any coincidence that Camping explicitly divorced himself from the historical Church, declaring all current denominations to be apostate … only to find himself actually being the apostate one?

  • Joe

    tODD @ 11 “declaring all current denominations to be apostate”

    Does that include non-denominational churches?

  • Joe

    tODD @ 11 “declaring all current denominations to be apostate”

    Does that include non-denominational churches?

  • larry

    The date setting and all those that preceded this one by Camping and others in the past only brings into the present tense the false delusion that the rapture (the real demonic teaching) is always bringing forth. Whether one was deluded in 1800, 1900, 2000, Saturday or some other date or simply by some nebulous “we don’t know but it will happen date” ALL bring the same deception. It matters little as to the date. The date is not the central deception but the “hope” or “expectation” of rapture is. Because it in no way sets the believer’s faith upon that which will allow him/her to endure a persecution in the future that will come about.

    Because at sometime in the future persecution will come greater and greater and if one’s hope was in this delusion, with or without an actual date, one will increasingly doubt the veracity of the hope that we have. In other words John via Revelation, Jesus, Paul all warn of these coming tribulations and persecutions as things that WILL come to pass that believers WILL endure at various times culminating in an intensity near the actual undated end. The reason for this is to encourage them, a, “THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN but don’t despair you have been delivered by Christ”.

    The whole point of revelation is to comfort the church who is under trial and suffering, that, “No you have not been abandoned by Christ”. SO THAT she and her children will have actual hope, certain expectation that Christ, in spite of your experiences to the contrary, is STILL FOR YOU…even while you are being persecuted by false doctrines and/or the sword.

    If one’s belief is “I’ll get a rapture ticket out here when it REALLY gets bad” and of course that will never happen, but in that future when it DOES GET THAT BAD, one may wonder, “was it at all any of it ever true” and become a functioning epicurean despairing. Such shallow planted roots run the very real danger of falling away when the heat of the sun (persecution) comes.

    Thus, the rapture itself and primarily is the real doctrine of demons deceiving many, the time setting is merely a manifestation or secondary effect of what that rapture-hope invests itself into. Because one day in the future the end WILL come and with it the last great push of terrible persecution, especially the continued geometric proliferation of false doctrines we see today and many won’t find much doctrine left to hold onto. And when that rapture doesn’t come, one will wonder, “was it anymore true than fairies and pots of leprechaun gold”.

    Camping is just another logical conclusion to the overall false teaching by NUMEROUS false teachers of our time that teach the rapture. The “rapture” is not simply a little side bar teaching a bit eschew of orthodoxy.

  • larry

    The date setting and all those that preceded this one by Camping and others in the past only brings into the present tense the false delusion that the rapture (the real demonic teaching) is always bringing forth. Whether one was deluded in 1800, 1900, 2000, Saturday or some other date or simply by some nebulous “we don’t know but it will happen date” ALL bring the same deception. It matters little as to the date. The date is not the central deception but the “hope” or “expectation” of rapture is. Because it in no way sets the believer’s faith upon that which will allow him/her to endure a persecution in the future that will come about.

    Because at sometime in the future persecution will come greater and greater and if one’s hope was in this delusion, with or without an actual date, one will increasingly doubt the veracity of the hope that we have. In other words John via Revelation, Jesus, Paul all warn of these coming tribulations and persecutions as things that WILL come to pass that believers WILL endure at various times culminating in an intensity near the actual undated end. The reason for this is to encourage them, a, “THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN but don’t despair you have been delivered by Christ”.

    The whole point of revelation is to comfort the church who is under trial and suffering, that, “No you have not been abandoned by Christ”. SO THAT she and her children will have actual hope, certain expectation that Christ, in spite of your experiences to the contrary, is STILL FOR YOU…even while you are being persecuted by false doctrines and/or the sword.

    If one’s belief is “I’ll get a rapture ticket out here when it REALLY gets bad” and of course that will never happen, but in that future when it DOES GET THAT BAD, one may wonder, “was it at all any of it ever true” and become a functioning epicurean despairing. Such shallow planted roots run the very real danger of falling away when the heat of the sun (persecution) comes.

    Thus, the rapture itself and primarily is the real doctrine of demons deceiving many, the time setting is merely a manifestation or secondary effect of what that rapture-hope invests itself into. Because one day in the future the end WILL come and with it the last great push of terrible persecution, especially the continued geometric proliferation of false doctrines we see today and many won’t find much doctrine left to hold onto. And when that rapture doesn’t come, one will wonder, “was it anymore true than fairies and pots of leprechaun gold”.

    Camping is just another logical conclusion to the overall false teaching by NUMEROUS false teachers of our time that teach the rapture. The “rapture” is not simply a little side bar teaching a bit eschew of orthodoxy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@12), in Camping’s The End of the Church Age…and After, he said:

    No longer are we to be under the spiritual rulership of the church. This command is given because God is finished with the era when the churches were used of God to evangelize the world. … The message should be clear. We must remove ourselves from the church.

    Not sure why he thinks his own little outfit isn’t a “church” subject to his own rule, but pretty sure he condemned “non-denominational” churches, too, yes.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@12), in Camping’s The End of the Church Age…and After, he said:

    No longer are we to be under the spiritual rulership of the church. This command is given because God is finished with the era when the churches were used of God to evangelize the world. … The message should be clear. We must remove ourselves from the church.

    Not sure why he thinks his own little outfit isn’t a “church” subject to his own rule, but pretty sure he condemned “non-denominational” churches, too, yes.

  • Joe

    This is interesting:

    “The Christian Post and other news media found that many within Camping’s organization did not believe his Judgment Days prediction. A Family Radio receptionist identified as Esther told CNNMoney shortly before May 21 that she estimates that 80 percent of her co-workers do not believe Camping’s prediction.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/exclusive-harold-camping-to-speak-on-failed-rapture-prediction-50427/

    If this is true, I would think that anyone with an equity stake in the company could be sued for fraud under some of California’s tremendously broad consumer protection statutes by a class of folks who made donations.

  • Joe

    This is interesting:

    “The Christian Post and other news media found that many within Camping’s organization did not believe his Judgment Days prediction. A Family Radio receptionist identified as Esther told CNNMoney shortly before May 21 that she estimates that 80 percent of her co-workers do not believe Camping’s prediction.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/exclusive-harold-camping-to-speak-on-failed-rapture-prediction-50427/

    If this is true, I would think that anyone with an equity stake in the company could be sued for fraud under some of California’s tremendously broad consumer protection statutes by a class of folks who made donations.

  • steve

    Isn’t it funny how the media always labels these guys “fundamentalists”? Camping was not a fundamentalist, as fundamentalist distinctions go, but those distinctions may prove too difficult or vague for the Chronicle to bother with even if they wanted to. So, conservative Christians, fundamentalists, and goofballs all get lumped into the same category.

  • steve

    Isn’t it funny how the media always labels these guys “fundamentalists”? Camping was not a fundamentalist, as fundamentalist distinctions go, but those distinctions may prove too difficult or vague for the Chronicle to bother with even if they wanted to. So, conservative Christians, fundamentalists, and goofballs all get lumped into the same category.

  • Grace

    tODD – 11

    “Camping’s problem wasn’t that he “didn’t study his Bible”, as such — it’s clear from his references to it that he did. He’s a fairly good example of how a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself. He used his reason to ignore the plain words of Scripture, thinking that he was more clever than God’s Word.”

    Interesting you state up “a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself.”

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a similar ‘ditty they state against studying the Bible “on their own”

    “Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years – if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.”

    The Watchtower; 9/15/1910; pp. 298)

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe their group needs the Watchtower – Lutheran’s need Martin Luther – the Bible then plays second fiddle to both a magazine and a man who hated Jews.

    “Is it any coincidence that Camping explicitly divorced himself from the historical Church, declaring all current denominations to be apostate … only to find himself actually being the apostate one?”

    The “historical Church” is not the Lutheran church, nor is it the RCC, it’s the church which Christ taught and preached here on earth. It’s not the doctrine of a man 1500 years later, believing he knew what the Bible actually said, and interpreted it the way he saw fit, finding nearly 18 books which offended him in one way or another. Having such distain for the Jews, he saw fit to write:

    “The Jews and their Lies”

    http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

    The very people who were God’s chosen people. The book he wrote proves how little Martin Luther understood the Bible, or Christ’s words to “love they neighbor” – all that was lost on Martin Luther, his venom for the line in which Christ came from, the Jews.

  • Grace

    tODD – 11

    “Camping’s problem wasn’t that he “didn’t study his Bible”, as such — it’s clear from his references to it that he did. He’s a fairly good example of how a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself. He used his reason to ignore the plain words of Scripture, thinking that he was more clever than God’s Word.”

    Interesting you state up “a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself.”

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a similar ‘ditty they state against studying the Bible “on their own”

    “Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years – if he lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.”

    The Watchtower; 9/15/1910; pp. 298)

    The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe their group needs the Watchtower – Lutheran’s need Martin Luther – the Bible then plays second fiddle to both a magazine and a man who hated Jews.

    “Is it any coincidence that Camping explicitly divorced himself from the historical Church, declaring all current denominations to be apostate … only to find himself actually being the apostate one?”

    The “historical Church” is not the Lutheran church, nor is it the RCC, it’s the church which Christ taught and preached here on earth. It’s not the doctrine of a man 1500 years later, believing he knew what the Bible actually said, and interpreted it the way he saw fit, finding nearly 18 books which offended him in one way or another. Having such distain for the Jews, he saw fit to write:

    “The Jews and their Lies”

    http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

    The very people who were God’s chosen people. The book he wrote proves how little Martin Luther understood the Bible, or Christ’s words to “love they neighbor” – all that was lost on Martin Luther, his venom for the line in which Christ came from, the Jews.

  • Tom Hering

    Tedious.

  • Tom Hering

    Tedious.

  • BW

    tODD,

    I should have bet money that your post would be taken turned and flipped into something about Luther.

    Anyway, it would certainly be interesting to hear from some of Camping’s followers and see what their thoughts are on this whole mess.

  • BW

    tODD,

    I should have bet money that your post would be taken turned and flipped into something about Luther.

    Anyway, it would certainly be interesting to hear from some of Camping’s followers and see what their thoughts are on this whole mess.

  • Cincinnatus

    Everyone, Luther hated Jews. This proves everything.

  • Cincinnatus

    Everyone, Luther hated Jews. This proves everything.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@17), I’m not sure why you take issue with my saying that “a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself” — Camping certainly is an example of this.

    Would you claim otherwise — that reading your Bible on your own is a guarantee that you will not mislead yourself? But there are so many churches that base their teachings on the Bible — not least of which is the Lutheran church! There is no teaching of ours not based solely in the Bible! Why, then, do you disagree with what we teach? Or is there something more to it than just reading your Bible?

    After all, when we have had a discussion on John 20:23, it was the Lutherans who were pointing you to the words of Scripture — you know, what “Christ taught and preached here on earth”. But what did you point us to? The words of Matthew Henry. Or you simply told us that God’s Word didn’t mean what it appeared to say, waving the literal interpretation away with “This passage of Scripture is often misunderstood.” You tell me — who, in that discussion, was “interpreting [the Bible] the way she saw fit”?

    Lutherans, of course, don’t “need Martin Luther” — we merely agree with much of what he wrote (almost always the works of his you haven’t read — which would be, what, all but one of them?). Not because he wrote it, but because it agrees with Scripture.

    But if once more bringing up the one work of Luther’s you have read — and by “read”, I mean likely found some links on an anti-Luther site to pass along — helps you to ignore the passages from Scripture that you tend to ignore, then, well, yes, I understand that’s your tactic.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@17), I’m not sure why you take issue with my saying that “a man studying his Bible on his own is still perfectly capable of deluding himself” — Camping certainly is an example of this.

    Would you claim otherwise — that reading your Bible on your own is a guarantee that you will not mislead yourself? But there are so many churches that base their teachings on the Bible — not least of which is the Lutheran church! There is no teaching of ours not based solely in the Bible! Why, then, do you disagree with what we teach? Or is there something more to it than just reading your Bible?

    After all, when we have had a discussion on John 20:23, it was the Lutherans who were pointing you to the words of Scripture — you know, what “Christ taught and preached here on earth”. But what did you point us to? The words of Matthew Henry. Or you simply told us that God’s Word didn’t mean what it appeared to say, waving the literal interpretation away with “This passage of Scripture is often misunderstood.” You tell me — who, in that discussion, was “interpreting [the Bible] the way she saw fit”?

    Lutherans, of course, don’t “need Martin Luther” — we merely agree with much of what he wrote (almost always the works of his you haven’t read — which would be, what, all but one of them?). Not because he wrote it, but because it agrees with Scripture.

    But if once more bringing up the one work of Luther’s you have read — and by “read”, I mean likely found some links on an anti-Luther site to pass along — helps you to ignore the passages from Scripture that you tend to ignore, then, well, yes, I understand that’s your tactic.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Okay, Cincinnatus (@20) kinda had the pithier reply.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Okay, Cincinnatus (@20) kinda had the pithier reply.

  • Grace

    poor tODD -

  • Grace

    poor tODD -

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@23), you are remarkably consistent in using that phrase when you have nothing (further) to contribute to the discussion.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@23), you are remarkably consistent in using that phrase when you have nothing (further) to contribute to the discussion.

  • Grace

    you are consistently poor, that’s why you’re ‘poor tODD -

  • Grace

    you are consistently poor, that’s why you’re ‘poor tODD -

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    “Poor” as in “poor in spirit”? Then mine is the kingdom of heaven!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    “Poor” as in “poor in spirit”? Then mine is the kingdom of heaven!

  • Grace

    No, just …… ‘poor tODD

  • Grace

    No, just …… ‘poor tODD

  • Tom Hering

    Camping is now (7:30 Central) speaking live on Family Radio. My bet is still on the “enough repented so God relented” explanation.

  • Tom Hering

    Camping is now (7:30 Central) speaking live on Family Radio. My bet is still on the “enough repented so God relented” explanation.

  • Michael Lynch

    Listening to his failure to repent. Very sad. I hope his followers realize they are hearing the voice of a delusional cult leader.

  • Michael Lynch

    Listening to his failure to repent. Very sad. I hope his followers realize they are hearing the voice of a delusional cult leader.

  • Tom Hering

    • He was looking at the Bible in a literal way, when it’s actually a spiritual book.

    • So the expectation of a physical return of Christ was wrong.

    • Christ did in fact return, but spiritually, on May 21, 2011.

    • All the literal, physical things will still happen, but on the Last Day, October 21, 2011. The Rapture will now be combined with the end of the world.

    • Just as there is no eternity of suffering in Hell, there will be no Tribulation suffering in the five months leading up to October 21. The Tribulation too will combined with the end of the world.

    • God is merciful toward the world, so He allowed Camping’s warning about May 21 to go out into the world, to get people thinking and ready.

    • The Gospel is composed of two parts, Salvation and Judgment. The whole Bible is a book of Law.

    • The Church Age ended in 1988, and Satan now rules over the churches.

    • Almost no one in the churches could be saved as a result. But after September 7, 1994 (the first mystical return of Christ, and Camping’s first Rapture prediction), people outside the churches could be saved.

  • Tom Hering

    • He was looking at the Bible in a literal way, when it’s actually a spiritual book.

    • So the expectation of a physical return of Christ was wrong.

    • Christ did in fact return, but spiritually, on May 21, 2011.

    • All the literal, physical things will still happen, but on the Last Day, October 21, 2011. The Rapture will now be combined with the end of the world.

    • Just as there is no eternity of suffering in Hell, there will be no Tribulation suffering in the five months leading up to October 21. The Tribulation too will combined with the end of the world.

    • God is merciful toward the world, so He allowed Camping’s warning about May 21 to go out into the world, to get people thinking and ready.

    • The Gospel is composed of two parts, Salvation and Judgment. The whole Bible is a book of Law.

    • The Church Age ended in 1988, and Satan now rules over the churches.

    • Almost no one in the churches could be saved as a result. But after September 7, 1994 (the first mystical return of Christ, and Camping’s first Rapture prediction), people outside the churches could be saved.

  • BW

    Sooo, those of us who belong to churches don’t get a second chance now? How do we know Christ returned spiritually? And why does this all smack of reheated gnosticism?

  • BW

    Sooo, those of us who belong to churches don’t get a second chance now? How do we know Christ returned spiritually? And why does this all smack of reheated gnosticism?

  • BW

    Ooooh, and I’m glad that they don’t have to redo all their posters. They just need to replace the date on them. Here’s to revisiting this scenario again in five months.

  • BW

    Ooooh, and I’m glad that they don’t have to redo all their posters. They just need to replace the date on them. Here’s to revisiting this scenario again in five months.

  • Tom Hering

    (Second half hour)

    • There will be no more tracts or billboards or radio teachings to warn people about October 21. The world, with the help of the media, has been warned enough.

    (Answers to reporters)

    • There’s no sense in him giving away all he owns on October 20 when no one can use it on October 21 anyways.

    • He’s never told anyone what to do with their savings or property.

    • He’s not setting a new date at all. He’s always talked about October 21. He just didn’t understand the spiritual nature of May 21.

    • He’s not an authority, he’s just a humble teacher. So he’s not responsible if others choose to become his followers.

    • He’s a full-time volunteer at Family Radio, so he didn’t become rich from any of the donations to Family Radio. He’s a servant of God, so he’s not interested in money.

    • Studying the Bible is difficult, and you don’t always hit the nail on the head the first time. You have to beg God in order to understand His Word.

    • He’s not responsible for attempted suicides or any other actions by his followers. He has no spiritual rule over others. He just teaches.

  • Tom Hering

    (Second half hour)

    • There will be no more tracts or billboards or radio teachings to warn people about October 21. The world, with the help of the media, has been warned enough.

    (Answers to reporters)

    • There’s no sense in him giving away all he owns on October 20 when no one can use it on October 21 anyways.

    • He’s never told anyone what to do with their savings or property.

    • He’s not setting a new date at all. He’s always talked about October 21. He just didn’t understand the spiritual nature of May 21.

    • He’s not an authority, he’s just a humble teacher. So he’s not responsible if others choose to become his followers.

    • He’s a full-time volunteer at Family Radio, so he didn’t become rich from any of the donations to Family Radio. He’s a servant of God, so he’s not interested in money.

    • Studying the Bible is difficult, and you don’t always hit the nail on the head the first time. You have to beg God in order to understand His Word.

    • He’s not responsible for attempted suicides or any other actions by his followers. He has no spiritual rule over others. He just teaches.

  • Michael Lynch

    I wish someone would ask if FR is ready to help the poor financially, especially those who became poor. I don’t believe they will help. This is an opportunity for churches to draw these people back.

  • Michael Lynch

    I wish someone would ask if FR is ready to help the poor financially, especially those who became poor. I don’t believe they will help. This is an opportunity for churches to draw these people back.

  • Michael Lynch

    Good, someone asked. Camping’s response: “People cope.”

  • Michael Lynch

    Good, someone asked. Camping’s response: “People cope.”

  • Tom Hering

    (Third half hour, answers to reporters continue)

    • He’s never told anyone he’s infallible, he’s just told people to check out God’s Word for themselves. Unlike pastors, he can admit his mistakes.

    • Yes, he can apologize for his May 21 prediction – if people want him to.

    • No, he won’t return any donations. They’re still being used to spread the “Gospel” before October 21.

    • There’s only one kind of person – whether of the Christian or the Hindu or any other religion – who will be saved. The person who recognizes that God has now spoken a message of Judgment, and as a result, cries out “God have mercy on me.”

    • Lots of people lost everything in the Great Recession, but still managed to survive somehow. So there’s no reason to worry about those who gave away everything before May 21. In fact, it’s a good opportunity for them to learn to trust in God – Who might want them to “sweat for a while.”

    (I’ve left out long tangents concerning Creationism and Family Radio.)

  • Tom Hering

    (Third half hour, answers to reporters continue)

    • He’s never told anyone he’s infallible, he’s just told people to check out God’s Word for themselves. Unlike pastors, he can admit his mistakes.

    • Yes, he can apologize for his May 21 prediction – if people want him to.

    • No, he won’t return any donations. They’re still being used to spread the “Gospel” before October 21.

    • There’s only one kind of person – whether of the Christian or the Hindu or any other religion – who will be saved. The person who recognizes that God has now spoken a message of Judgment, and as a result, cries out “God have mercy on me.”

    • Lots of people lost everything in the Great Recession, but still managed to survive somehow. So there’s no reason to worry about those who gave away everything before May 21. In fact, it’s a good opportunity for them to learn to trust in God – Who might want them to “sweat for a while.”

    (I’ve left out long tangents concerning Creationism and Family Radio.)

  • Tom Hering

    Family Radio made a follow-up announcement reminding it’s listeners that our timing isn’t always God’s timing. And then went with the “God has relented until all have repented” line.

  • Tom Hering

    Family Radio made a follow-up announcement reminding it’s listeners that our timing isn’t always God’s timing. And then went with the “God has relented until all have repented” line.

  • trotk

    Tom, you have departed from the topic of Martin Luther’s hatred of the Jews!

    Grace, you haven’t responded to tODD. Do you believe that one man studying the Bible ISN’T capable of deluding himself?

  • trotk

    Tom, you have departed from the topic of Martin Luther’s hatred of the Jews!

    Grace, you haven’t responded to tODD. Do you believe that one man studying the Bible ISN’T capable of deluding himself?

  • Grace

    trotk @ 38

    YOU WROTE:….. “Grace, you haven’t responded to tODD. Do you believe that one man studying the Bible ISN’T capable of deluding himself?”

    I don’t think many do, but Martin Luther sure did…. he forgot that Jesus commanded us to ‘love our neighbors’ did ole Martin Luther adhere to that commandment? … NO! He was so incensed that he wrote a nasty book against the Jews…. forgetting that the Jews hadn’t all accepted HIM as their Messiah — but then Martin Luther apparently believing that he COULD command more respect, or elicit more thought, (1500 years later) became angry at the Jews for not believing. How could Martin Luther think for one moment that he could make the Jews of Germany believe in Christ, when Christ stood within reach of thousands of Jews as HE taught and preached, and ‘they dis-believed, they mocked as the Pharisees, they didn’t believe the Son of God,…. YET, Martin Luther expected more, he expected those in Germany and those around him to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

    Martin Luther expected more, from himself, than the HOLY God, the Son accepted from those who turned their back…… YET…… Christ said “forgive them for they know not what they do”

    Luther in his arrogant stance believed more in what he pronounced to be true about those who refused to believe in the Savior, yet Christ was stated the words above. Martin Luther had no such words, yet he didn’t die for anyone.

    If you study the Scriptures, you will find that prophecy stated clearly that Christ would not be accepted. IF Martin Luther had a clue, or if the man had studied, he would have known this, but he didn’t.

    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    8
    He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12
    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53

  • Grace

    trotk @ 38

    YOU WROTE:….. “Grace, you haven’t responded to tODD. Do you believe that one man studying the Bible ISN’T capable of deluding himself?”

    I don’t think many do, but Martin Luther sure did…. he forgot that Jesus commanded us to ‘love our neighbors’ did ole Martin Luther adhere to that commandment? … NO! He was so incensed that he wrote a nasty book against the Jews…. forgetting that the Jews hadn’t all accepted HIM as their Messiah — but then Martin Luther apparently believing that he COULD command more respect, or elicit more thought, (1500 years later) became angry at the Jews for not believing. How could Martin Luther think for one moment that he could make the Jews of Germany believe in Christ, when Christ stood within reach of thousands of Jews as HE taught and preached, and ‘they dis-believed, they mocked as the Pharisees, they didn’t believe the Son of God,…. YET, Martin Luther expected more, he expected those in Germany and those around him to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

    Martin Luther expected more, from himself, than the HOLY God, the Son accepted from those who turned their back…… YET…… Christ said “forgive them for they know not what they do”

    Luther in his arrogant stance believed more in what he pronounced to be true about those who refused to believe in the Savior, yet Christ was stated the words above. Martin Luther had no such words, yet he didn’t die for anyone.

    If you study the Scriptures, you will find that prophecy stated clearly that Christ would not be accepted. IF Martin Luther had a clue, or if the man had studied, he would have known this, but he didn’t.

    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    8
    He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12
    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53

  • Tom Hering

    Proving that Luther wrote bad things about the Jews doesn’t prove that “me and my Bible” and non-denominationalism are good things.

  • Tom Hering

    Proving that Luther wrote bad things about the Jews doesn’t prove that “me and my Bible” and non-denominationalism are good things.

  • larry

    Peter denied Christ, therefore scratch first and second Peter. Paul stoned Stephen, there go a bunch of epistles. All the Apostles denied Christ at the crucifixion, there go the four Gospels. David committed adultry and murdered her husband in order to cover it up, there go the Psalms. Moses killed a man, there goes the pentateuch.

    The bible for the “me and my bible” crew is often little more than a bonded leather bound pope.

    What I’ve always found most amazing about folks who preach, teach and confess in some form or another, whether it be a Camping or a Grace, “follow the bible only and not a man (or woman)…not the man-made church but the Word”, is that they are dropping cookie crumbs of side trials to themselves who are in fact men and women. “Don’t listen to the teachings of men but, by the way, listen to what I (a man/woman) am saying”. A great irony indeed.

    Yet if I dare follow the bible which says like “this is My body/blood” and “this baptism saves you” I am not to follow those words of Scripture but their words that say, “this is NOT My body/blood” and “baptism does NOT save you” which are not recorded in the Scritpures.

    Jesus warned the “me and my Bible” folks of His time who “search the Scriptures (diligence is implied) and thought they had life by them…that (rather) these continually proclaim Him”. Of course they turn Jesus back into a Moses and circuitously arrive back at searching the Scriptures thinking that they have life by them (in the way of the Law). Implied works righteousness will always procure the terms grace, faith and Christ for itself but MEAN a different KIND while denying explicitly the works righteousness they are clearly doing a proclaiming. It’s kind of like a fish saying to you, “I’m not wet or swimming but walking around on dry land”. And all you can say is, “Aaaa, yea right.”

  • larry

    Peter denied Christ, therefore scratch first and second Peter. Paul stoned Stephen, there go a bunch of epistles. All the Apostles denied Christ at the crucifixion, there go the four Gospels. David committed adultry and murdered her husband in order to cover it up, there go the Psalms. Moses killed a man, there goes the pentateuch.

    The bible for the “me and my bible” crew is often little more than a bonded leather bound pope.

    What I’ve always found most amazing about folks who preach, teach and confess in some form or another, whether it be a Camping or a Grace, “follow the bible only and not a man (or woman)…not the man-made church but the Word”, is that they are dropping cookie crumbs of side trials to themselves who are in fact men and women. “Don’t listen to the teachings of men but, by the way, listen to what I (a man/woman) am saying”. A great irony indeed.

    Yet if I dare follow the bible which says like “this is My body/blood” and “this baptism saves you” I am not to follow those words of Scripture but their words that say, “this is NOT My body/blood” and “baptism does NOT save you” which are not recorded in the Scritpures.

    Jesus warned the “me and my Bible” folks of His time who “search the Scriptures (diligence is implied) and thought they had life by them…that (rather) these continually proclaim Him”. Of course they turn Jesus back into a Moses and circuitously arrive back at searching the Scriptures thinking that they have life by them (in the way of the Law). Implied works righteousness will always procure the terms grace, faith and Christ for itself but MEAN a different KIND while denying explicitly the works righteousness they are clearly doing a proclaiming. It’s kind of like a fish saying to you, “I’m not wet or swimming but walking around on dry land”. And all you can say is, “Aaaa, yea right.”

  • Louis

    I do find it interesting that none of Camping’s erstwhile followers/defenders have shown up yet… Where is Lenny, Dave, James, Bobby, Richard, Brotherp, Bobbystecko and “daylight” (http://www.geneveith.com/2010/01/06/put-may-21-2011-on-your-calendar/) ? I see they were going at it on that thread 9 months after it was first posted …..

    I hope they are enjoying their humble pie, but somehow I doubt….

  • Louis

    I do find it interesting that none of Camping’s erstwhile followers/defenders have shown up yet… Where is Lenny, Dave, James, Bobby, Richard, Brotherp, Bobbystecko and “daylight” (http://www.geneveith.com/2010/01/06/put-may-21-2011-on-your-calendar/) ? I see they were going at it on that thread 9 months after it was first posted …..

    I hope they are enjoying their humble pie, but somehow I doubt….

  • Tom Hering

    Ah, bobby stecko. English as a second-hundredth language.

  • Tom Hering

    Ah, bobby stecko. English as a second-hundredth language.


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