U.S. forces kill Osama bin Laden

A major victory in the war against terrorism and in the war of vengeance for the 9/11 attacks:

Osama bin Laden, the long-hunted al-Qaeda leader and chief architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, was killed by U.S. forces Sunday in what officials described as a surgical raid on his luxury hideout in Pakistan.

In a rare Sunday night address from the East Room of the White House, President Obama said a small team of U.S. personnel attacked a compound Sunday in Pakistan’s Abbottabad Valley, where bin Laden had been hiding since at least last summer. During a firefight, U.S. team killed bin Laden, 54, and took custody of his body in what Obama called “the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al-Qaeda.”

via Osama bin Laden is killed by U.S. forces in Pakistan – The Washington Post.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Can’t get this song out of my head, and here’s a nice swing take on it:

  • http://cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Can’t get this song out of my head, and here’s a nice swing take on it:

  • http://cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    I would not call it vengeance. It was justice.

  • http://cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    I would not call it vengeance. It was justice.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Glad they got him, but I worry that people are going to think this is the end of the matter. Al Qaeda is not a a convetional military; they have various cells, and while this might be a setback, this won’t be the end of them. We need to be on our guard more than ever.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Glad they got him, but I worry that people are going to think this is the end of the matter. Al Qaeda is not a a convetional military; they have various cells, and while this might be a setback, this won’t be the end of them. We need to be on our guard more than ever.

  • Jonathan

    OK, who still wants to close Guantanamo Bay now?

    Looks like KSM ended up giving up his boss.

  • Jonathan

    OK, who still wants to close Guantanamo Bay now?

    Looks like KSM ended up giving up his boss.

  • Tom Hering

    It’s being reported that the mission was to kill, not capture, bin Laden. And to quickly bury his body at sea.

    I would much rather have seen him captured alive, and brought to the U.S. for a public trial. But he probably had a dozen ways to take his own life before he allowed that to happen.

    And if the reports that his body was buried at sea are true, I think that was a huge mistake. At the very least, a group of international journalists – together with a couple of people who knew bin Laden in the past – should have been shown the body first.

    The anti-Obama conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day.

  • Tom Hering

    It’s being reported that the mission was to kill, not capture, bin Laden. And to quickly bury his body at sea.

    I would much rather have seen him captured alive, and brought to the U.S. for a public trial. But he probably had a dozen ways to take his own life before he allowed that to happen.

    And if the reports that his body was buried at sea are true, I think that was a huge mistake. At the very least, a group of international journalists – together with a couple of people who knew bin Laden in the past – should have been shown the body first.

    The anti-Obama conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #5,

    Ok, I’ll bite. You say, “The anti-Obama conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day.” You’re probably right, but why? Are you saying he will be accused of faking the kill?

    And hey, Dr. Veith, the “preview” screen is pretty cool. It still didn’t stop me from making a typo, of course, but I like it.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #5,

    Ok, I’ll bite. You say, “The anti-Obama conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day.” You’re probably right, but why? Are you saying he will be accused of faking the kill?

    And hey, Dr. Veith, the “preview” screen is pretty cool. It still didn’t stop me from making a typo, of course, but I like it.

  • Jedidiah Maschke

    Let’s just remember God’s words in Ezekiel 33:11. “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” We must continue to pray that those who are follow the god of Islam would come to follow Jesus.

  • Jedidiah Maschke

    Let’s just remember God’s words in Ezekiel 33:11. “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” We must continue to pray that those who are follow the god of Islam would come to follow Jesus.

  • Joe

    I am a bit concerned about the quick burial at sea part. I agree with Tom that there should have been a more public process to identify the body. But this mission raises an interesting point in the debate about the interrogation practices at Gitmo. They appear to have paid off in spades in this instance.

  • Joe

    I am a bit concerned about the quick burial at sea part. I agree with Tom that there should have been a more public process to identify the body. But this mission raises an interesting point in the debate about the interrogation practices at Gitmo. They appear to have paid off in spades in this instance.

  • Carl Vehse

    According to a AP news report:

    “After bin Laden was killed in a raid by U.S. forces in Pakistan, senior administration officials said the body would be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition. That practice calls for the body to be buried within 24 hours, the official said. Finding a country willing to accept the remains of the world’s most wanted terrorist would have been difficult, the official said. So the U.S. decided to bury him at sea. The official, who spoke Monday on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive national security matters, did not immediately say where that occurred.”

    The obeisance to Islamic practice and tradition is now a matter of “national security”?!? The “U.S.” did not decide this.

  • Carl Vehse

    According to a AP news report:

    “After bin Laden was killed in a raid by U.S. forces in Pakistan, senior administration officials said the body would be handled according to Islamic practice and tradition. That practice calls for the body to be buried within 24 hours, the official said. Finding a country willing to accept the remains of the world’s most wanted terrorist would have been difficult, the official said. So the U.S. decided to bury him at sea. The official, who spoke Monday on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive national security matters, did not immediately say where that occurred.”

    The obeisance to Islamic practice and tradition is now a matter of “national security”?!? The “U.S.” did not decide this.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    I think pictures should have been shown–the body alongside a tape measure to indicate the height, etc.. Like others note, the Obama administration has this appalling “trust me” attitude that make any fan of Deming cringe. “In God we trust, all others must bring data.”

    That said, blessed is the man who shot Osama, blessed are the interrogators at Gitmo who got the information, and blessed is the waterboard they may have used to persuade him. Blessed is the man who set up the prison at Guantanamo Bay, and blessed is the man who broke his campaign promise to shut it down.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    I think pictures should have been shown–the body alongside a tape measure to indicate the height, etc.. Like others note, the Obama administration has this appalling “trust me” attitude that make any fan of Deming cringe. “In God we trust, all others must bring data.”

    That said, blessed is the man who shot Osama, blessed are the interrogators at Gitmo who got the information, and blessed is the waterboard they may have used to persuade him. Blessed is the man who set up the prison at Guantanamo Bay, and blessed is the man who broke his campaign promise to shut it down.

  • Tom Hering

    See? Obama, the secret Muslim, puts Islamic practice ahead of the best interests of the U.S.

    Saw it coming a mile away.

  • Tom Hering

    See? Obama, the secret Muslim, puts Islamic practice ahead of the best interests of the U.S.

    Saw it coming a mile away.

  • WebMonk

    I think a burial at sea was the smart thing to do. Imagine if his body were buried somewhere that people could go to see it! Major pilgrimage location! If bin Laden had been put on trial it would have been a media circus and a prime platform for him to spout off his preaching. Not to mention the security issues keeping him in custody would have raised.

    The only advantage I can see to capturing him alive, from a purely pragmatic point of view, is the possibility of getting intelligence through questioning, but I think the chances of that happening are low to none.

    The only thing that I think will turn out badly from the way this was handled is the conspiracy theory nuts who will probably jump on top of this and say it was all a fake. But frankly, that’s such a tiny little blip on the radar that it’s not worth worrying about from a political point of view.

    From a personal point of view, though, I really hope they got lots and lots of documentation. I’ve already heard from three friends who have said they think it’s a conspiracy fake. I suspect this is going to be as annoying as the birther nuttiness and the 9/11 conspiracy kooks.

    (and yeah – loving on the preview! I played with this for five minutes testing different markups. It’ll hopefully help stop the formatting mistakes; probably won’t impact typos, though.)

  • WebMonk

    I think a burial at sea was the smart thing to do. Imagine if his body were buried somewhere that people could go to see it! Major pilgrimage location! If bin Laden had been put on trial it would have been a media circus and a prime platform for him to spout off his preaching. Not to mention the security issues keeping him in custody would have raised.

    The only advantage I can see to capturing him alive, from a purely pragmatic point of view, is the possibility of getting intelligence through questioning, but I think the chances of that happening are low to none.

    The only thing that I think will turn out badly from the way this was handled is the conspiracy theory nuts who will probably jump on top of this and say it was all a fake. But frankly, that’s such a tiny little blip on the radar that it’s not worth worrying about from a political point of view.

    From a personal point of view, though, I really hope they got lots and lots of documentation. I’ve already heard from three friends who have said they think it’s a conspiracy fake. I suspect this is going to be as annoying as the birther nuttiness and the 9/11 conspiracy kooks.

    (and yeah – loving on the preview! I played with this for five minutes testing different markups. It’ll hopefully help stop the formatting mistakes; probably won’t impact typos, though.)

  • Tom Hering

    Re: new preview function. Be careful to save what you write before leaving this page to do a search. Used to be you could use the back button to return here, and find that what you’d written so far would still be here in the comments box. Not anymore.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: new preview function. Be careful to save what you write before leaving this page to do a search. Used to be you could use the back button to return here, and find that what you’d written so far would still be here in the comments box. Not anymore.

  • Cincinnatus

    Hey, and this purely symbolic victory (which will change literally nothing about anything in the world) only cost ten years, 3 trillion dollars, and a few thousand American lives.

    I’m glad I’m not the only one just a tad suspicious about the burial at sea angle. They couldn’t offer a photo? Nothing?

  • Cincinnatus

    Hey, and this purely symbolic victory (which will change literally nothing about anything in the world) only cost ten years, 3 trillion dollars, and a few thousand American lives.

    I’m glad I’m not the only one just a tad suspicious about the burial at sea angle. They couldn’t offer a photo? Nothing?

  • WebMonk

    Hey Carl, yes the burial method was decided by the “U.S.” Plans were drawn up back in the Bush presidency about how to dispose of the body were bin Laden to be killed. Burial at sea was the selected option long before Obama became President.

  • WebMonk

    Hey Carl, yes the burial method was decided by the “U.S.” Plans were drawn up back in the Bush presidency about how to dispose of the body were bin Laden to be killed. Burial at sea was the selected option long before Obama became President.

  • Booklover

    Tom, you must be special. :-) My comments never saved when I used the back button in the past.

    What I miss is the “Home” button that used to be beside the “About” button. Hope it comes back.

  • Booklover

    Tom, you must be special. :-) My comments never saved when I used the back button in the past.

    What I miss is the “Home” button that used to be beside the “About” button. Hope it comes back.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    I have a tough time with the crowds last night at 11 pm outside the White House, all waving American flags. It seems orchestrated to me, almost the way they do it in Iran or other such places. Who passed out these American flags on such notice and got people to go out at that hour in Wash. D.C.?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    I have a tough time with the crowds last night at 11 pm outside the White House, all waving American flags. It seems orchestrated to me, almost the way they do it in Iran or other such places. Who passed out these American flags on such notice and got people to go out at that hour in Wash. D.C.?

  • WebMonk

    Ok, for any nutcases out there who think this was all a fake. You think the US faked this too? A random dude in the area tweeting things he was seeing/hearing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/osama-bin-laden-raid-capt_n_856187.html

    And Cin, there is a picture going around the news organizations as a picture of Osama, dead.

  • WebMonk

    Ok, for any nutcases out there who think this was all a fake. You think the US faked this too? A random dude in the area tweeting things he was seeing/hearing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/osama-bin-laden-raid-capt_n_856187.html

    And Cin, there is a picture going around the news organizations as a picture of Osama, dead.

  • WebMonk

    Here’s the picture (I haven’t tracked down the original source to verify): http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-600309

  • WebMonk

    Here’s the picture (I haven’t tracked down the original source to verify): http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-600309

  • Tom Hering

    Steve @ 17, was that a serious question – in the age of flash mobs??

  • Tom Hering

    Steve @ 17, was that a serious question – in the age of flash mobs??

  • Carl Vehse

    Webmonk @15, do you have a source link?

  • Carl Vehse

    Webmonk @15, do you have a source link?

  • WebMonk

    Steve, I live in the DC area and I know six separate families who all made the trek in to the White House when the announcement was made. One called me on their way and asked if I wanted to come. (I declined) They mentioned they were at Walmart picking up flags and thought of me (I live very close to that Walmart).

  • WebMonk

    Steve, I live in the DC area and I know six separate families who all made the trek in to the White House when the announcement was made. One called me on their way and asked if I wanted to come. (I declined) They mentioned they were at Walmart picking up flags and thought of me (I live very close to that Walmart).

  • WebMonk

    Wow Carl. I figured that was common knowledge. There was a bit of a brouhaha back when it came out. Maybe I happened to be closer to the noise and it just seemed more widely spread to me than it actually was.

    I’ll do some Googling, but it was long enough ago and there are going to be so many recent events of the same search terms that I doubt I’ll find anything. I’ll check, though.

  • WebMonk

    Wow Carl. I figured that was common knowledge. There was a bit of a brouhaha back when it came out. Maybe I happened to be closer to the noise and it just seemed more widely spread to me than it actually was.

    I’ll do some Googling, but it was long enough ago and there are going to be so many recent events of the same search terms that I doubt I’ll find anything. I’ll check, though.

  • Pingback: Death of Osama Bid Laden cont. « THE STR

  • Pingback: Death of Osama Bid Laden cont. « THE STR

  • Joe

    I think burial at sea was the correct idea, I just don’t like the timing of it. But, I don’t think it was faked. If it were, I think there would be some terrorists out there that would come out saying that he was not dead in order to embarrass the US. Instead, what I have heard are threats of reprisals for killing the “Sheik of Islam” as they have taken to a calling him.

  • Joe

    I think burial at sea was the correct idea, I just don’t like the timing of it. But, I don’t think it was faked. If it were, I think there would be some terrorists out there that would come out saying that he was not dead in order to embarrass the US. Instead, what I have heard are threats of reprisals for killing the “Sheik of Islam” as they have taken to a calling him.

  • WebMonk

    Ok, that didn’t take long. Carl, it’s a lost cause. There’s no way I’m going to be able to track that down for you. Too many sites game the dates on their news articles. According to what the news sites provide to search engines, they have news about President Obama announcing Osama’s death and burial at sea way back in 2008! :-D

    I did happen to run across this little gem.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

    Obviously yesterday’s announcement is a faked job because bin Laden has been dead for 8 years!

  • WebMonk

    Ok, that didn’t take long. Carl, it’s a lost cause. There’s no way I’m going to be able to track that down for you. Too many sites game the dates on their news articles. According to what the news sites provide to search engines, they have news about President Obama announcing Osama’s death and burial at sea way back in 2008! :-D

    I did happen to run across this little gem.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

    Obviously yesterday’s announcement is a faked job because bin Laden has been dead for 8 years!

  • Kirk

    @17 and 22

    I went to the WH to observe, but not participate. No one was handing out flags. People were literally running to the crowd from all over the city carrying their own signs and flags and banners (I even saw a few Bush/Cheney signs in the mix).

    As to the ethics of the whole situation, I was a little conflicted. Ezekiel 33:11 kept coming to mind. Of course, Bin Laden had it coming but don’t we all deserve a similar fate, at least eternally? Osama was a very bad man and I think the world is probably safer without him, but he still was a man. I can say that his death was necessary without reveling in it. On the other hand, Bin Laden was more than a man. He was a symbol of the broader radical Islamic movement and a sworn enemy of the US. In the same sense, his death was more than just a death, it was a victory for our country and a demonstration of our power and resolve.. I can see celebrating that.

    Like I said, I went to the WH and observed and left not really knowing what to feel. It’s a complex range of emotions.

  • Kirk

    @17 and 22

    I went to the WH to observe, but not participate. No one was handing out flags. People were literally running to the crowd from all over the city carrying their own signs and flags and banners (I even saw a few Bush/Cheney signs in the mix).

    As to the ethics of the whole situation, I was a little conflicted. Ezekiel 33:11 kept coming to mind. Of course, Bin Laden had it coming but don’t we all deserve a similar fate, at least eternally? Osama was a very bad man and I think the world is probably safer without him, but he still was a man. I can say that his death was necessary without reveling in it. On the other hand, Bin Laden was more than a man. He was a symbol of the broader radical Islamic movement and a sworn enemy of the US. In the same sense, his death was more than just a death, it was a victory for our country and a demonstration of our power and resolve.. I can see celebrating that.

    Like I said, I went to the WH and observed and left not really knowing what to feel. It’s a complex range of emotions.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    WebMonk,

    Thanks for the info.

    As a once and longtime union member, I know how the machine can mobilize people at a moments notice.

    If it was spontaneous, great.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    WebMonk,

    Thanks for the info.

    As a once and longtime union member, I know how the machine can mobilize people at a moments notice.

    If it was spontaneous, great.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Rejoicing in the fact that God, through the proper authorities, whose right it is to wield the sword to protect us and punish evil doers, has not exacted justice on a notorious murderer and terrorist, who wanted nothing more than to establish Islamic authority worldwide is perfectly acceptable. Read Romans 13. And read Luther’s essay on “War Against the Turk” which you can find here:

    http://www.lutherdansk.dk/On%20war%20against%20Islamic%20reign%20of%20terror/On%20war%20against%20Islamic%20reign%20of%20terror1.htm

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Rejoicing in the fact that God, through the proper authorities, whose right it is to wield the sword to protect us and punish evil doers, has not exacted justice on a notorious murderer and terrorist, who wanted nothing more than to establish Islamic authority worldwide is perfectly acceptable. Read Romans 13. And read Luther’s essay on “War Against the Turk” which you can find here:

    http://www.lutherdansk.dk/On%20war%20against%20Islamic%20reign%20of%20terror/On%20war%20against%20Islamic%20reign%20of%20terror1.htm

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    read “now” for “not” in the above.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    read “now” for “not” in the above.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    By the way, that photo linked to above is not real, it is a fake, Bin Laden’s face photo shopped on to the face of another dead/killed terrorist.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    By the way, that photo linked to above is not real, it is a fake, Bin Laden’s face photo shopped on to the face of another dead/killed terrorist.

  • Carl Vehse

    Wow, Webmonk,

    If your claim @15 was “common knowledge” and caused “bit of a brouhaha,” there should be some reference to it in news reports, or elsewhere on the internet. Until some source is found, I’ll file the credibility of your claim with the credibility of the photo you linked to @19.

  • Carl Vehse

    Wow, Webmonk,

    If your claim @15 was “common knowledge” and caused “bit of a brouhaha,” there should be some reference to it in news reports, or elsewhere on the internet. Until some source is found, I’ll file the credibility of your claim with the credibility of the photo you linked to @19.

  • http://www.caryschwarz.com saddler

    Did anyone catch Geraldo’s gaff on Fox that “Obama had been killed” ?He, of course quickly corrected himself.

    Yes, justice has been served, but in practice this event is largely symbolic. There is a big question mark as to how this will be received by the Islamic world. But I’m pretty sure this is good for at least a few votes for the current president come next year.

  • http://www.caryschwarz.com saddler

    Did anyone catch Geraldo’s gaff on Fox that “Obama had been killed” ?He, of course quickly corrected himself.

    Yes, justice has been served, but in practice this event is largely symbolic. There is a big question mark as to how this will be received by the Islamic world. But I’m pretty sure this is good for at least a few votes for the current president come next year.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Couple more thoughts:

    Couple comments on the Obama killing, picked up from others:

    FIRST, from a Lutheran pastor:
    Please remember that the special forces had their God-given vocation to do last night, bearing that sword not held in vain. One may not like the use of lethal force on principle, but there are honorable men who exercise that force and bear the price, with that just sword, of taking human lives. While especially-squeamish people wring their hands back here, please also remember all that runs through the special forces’ minds even after a ‘righteous kill.’ It’s just hard for me to be an earnest, handwringing parson right now. Justice frequently needs frail human souls to carry it out.

    SECOND, from Winston Churchill:
    “We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” – Winston Churchill

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Couple more thoughts:

    Couple comments on the Obama killing, picked up from others:

    FIRST, from a Lutheran pastor:
    Please remember that the special forces had their God-given vocation to do last night, bearing that sword not held in vain. One may not like the use of lethal force on principle, but there are honorable men who exercise that force and bear the price, with that just sword, of taking human lives. While especially-squeamish people wring their hands back here, please also remember all that runs through the special forces’ minds even after a ‘righteous kill.’ It’s just hard for me to be an earnest, handwringing parson right now. Justice frequently needs frail human souls to carry it out.

    SECOND, from Winston Churchill:
    “We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” – Winston Churchill

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Paul, that’s the ‘Osama’ killing, not the “Obama” killing.

    (I am having the exact same problem!)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com Bike Bubba

    Paul, that’s the ‘Osama’ killing, not the “Obama” killing.

    (I am having the exact same problem!)

  • Kirk
  • Kirk
  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    WHERE’S OSAMA’S “LONG FORM” DEATH CERTICFICATE????

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    WHERE’S OSAMA’S “LONG FORM” DEATH CERTICFICATE????

  • Rev. Larry Wright

    Jonathan @ 4, “Guantanamo”

    Yes! Intelligence is good, when we use it!

    I went to Wittenberg University, Springfield,OH to hear Col. Oliver North speak in the late 1990′s. The “Young Republicans” brought him there to speak, the “Young Democrats” booed him throughout his presentation.

    Included in his speech was the dangerous nature of a relatively unknown(at that time) terrorist named Osama bin Laden, whom North said we should seriously watch…that brought a series of jeers, and boos that North could want to “take out” someone like Laden.

    Too many lives lost at Laden’s hands. I’m glad for all the work that has been done by everyone over the years to bring Laden to justice. And especially proud of our military…

  • Rev. Larry Wright

    Jonathan @ 4, “Guantanamo”

    Yes! Intelligence is good, when we use it!

    I went to Wittenberg University, Springfield,OH to hear Col. Oliver North speak in the late 1990′s. The “Young Republicans” brought him there to speak, the “Young Democrats” booed him throughout his presentation.

    Included in his speech was the dangerous nature of a relatively unknown(at that time) terrorist named Osama bin Laden, whom North said we should seriously watch…that brought a series of jeers, and boos that North could want to “take out” someone like Laden.

    Too many lives lost at Laden’s hands. I’m glad for all the work that has been done by everyone over the years to bring Laden to justice. And especially proud of our military…

  • WebMonk

    Carl, I think I very specifically mentioned that I couldn’t verify the image I linked to.

    But yes, since I can’t track down the MSM references to the decision on how to dispose of bin Laden’s body, I don’t expect anyone to merely take my word on it.

    From what I remember of the discussions back then, there were people who were upset that having a “respectful” way of disposing of the body was paying too much deference to Islamic feeling.

  • WebMonk

    Carl, I think I very specifically mentioned that I couldn’t verify the image I linked to.

    But yes, since I can’t track down the MSM references to the decision on how to dispose of bin Laden’s body, I don’t expect anyone to merely take my word on it.

    From what I remember of the discussions back then, there were people who were upset that having a “respectful” way of disposing of the body was paying too much deference to Islamic feeling.

  • Porcell

    Rev.McCain, thanks for those quotes from the Lutheran pastor and Churchill.

    Americans can be proud that the CIA and military have relentlessly searched for Bin Laden since 9/11. The world gets the message, also, that our Special Forces are superbly well trained and effective at what they do. For an excellent article of the intelligence and operation go to the NRO article More Operational Details.

    The question for Pakistan is just how the Hell did they not know that Bin Laden was located in a compound near to their military academy.

    Personally, I’m glad they dumped him somewhere in the ocean, though the Dead Sea might have been better.

  • Porcell

    Rev.McCain, thanks for those quotes from the Lutheran pastor and Churchill.

    Americans can be proud that the CIA and military have relentlessly searched for Bin Laden since 9/11. The world gets the message, also, that our Special Forces are superbly well trained and effective at what they do. For an excellent article of the intelligence and operation go to the NRO article More Operational Details.

    The question for Pakistan is just how the Hell did they not know that Bin Laden was located in a compound near to their military academy.

    Personally, I’m glad they dumped him somewhere in the ocean, though the Dead Sea might have been better.

  • http://www.Utah-Lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    I couldn’t be prouder of our military. May last night’s news inspire another generation to join the military, to go through the brutal training of the Navy Seals, The Green Berets, Combat Control, Pararescue, and Force Recon, to protect and serve our country as these men did. God bless them. It is only right to thank them for doing that job, to celebrate their success.
    If you don’t understand why you should be happy, I’m afraid I will not be able to explain it to you. But I can’t help but think in Military jargon right now, Sucks to be you.
    Of course that is why I was thoroughly put off by Obama’s speech last night. He came off as a narcissistic kill joy. Rather than interrupting Donald Trump, he should have hired him to fire his speech writer/coach. And I was looking forward to his speech, before he started speaking.
    If there was ever something worth celebrating in our life time it was this news.

  • http://www.Utah-Lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    I couldn’t be prouder of our military. May last night’s news inspire another generation to join the military, to go through the brutal training of the Navy Seals, The Green Berets, Combat Control, Pararescue, and Force Recon, to protect and serve our country as these men did. God bless them. It is only right to thank them for doing that job, to celebrate their success.
    If you don’t understand why you should be happy, I’m afraid I will not be able to explain it to you. But I can’t help but think in Military jargon right now, Sucks to be you.
    Of course that is why I was thoroughly put off by Obama’s speech last night. He came off as a narcissistic kill joy. Rather than interrupting Donald Trump, he should have hired him to fire his speech writer/coach. And I was looking forward to his speech, before he started speaking.
    If there was ever something worth celebrating in our life time it was this news.

  • Joe II

    Thank God for the cool, competent leadership of Pres. Obama.

  • Joe II

    Thank God for the cool, competent leadership of Pres. Obama.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    “At my command”, “At my direction”

    Does this always HAVE to be about YOU, Prez. O?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    “At my command”, “At my direction”

    Does this always HAVE to be about YOU, Prez. O?

  • Stephen

    I didn’t see the speech and only heard of this as I drove to work. My first thought was great thankfulness for those Navy Seals and all the men and women who are out there. Those are our people and like Bror said, we ought to celebrate them. I hope I see someone in a uniform today.

  • Stephen

    I didn’t see the speech and only heard of this as I drove to work. My first thought was great thankfulness for those Navy Seals and all the men and women who are out there. Those are our people and like Bror said, we ought to celebrate them. I hope I see someone in a uniform today.

  • John C

    Bin Laden would have been ‘brought to justice’ far more quickly if resources were not diverted into Iraq, Porcell. And the influence of alQaeda and Iran would be far less.

  • John C

    Bin Laden would have been ‘brought to justice’ far more quickly if resources were not diverted into Iraq, Porcell. And the influence of alQaeda and Iran would be far less.

  • Porcell

    John C, thanks very much. On this happy day for America, you just had to get in a jab at the evil Bush. I hope that makes you feel a bit better.

  • Porcell

    John C, thanks very much. On this happy day for America, you just had to get in a jab at the evil Bush. I hope that makes you feel a bit better.

  • Arndt

    Porcell, your feckless and unhappy attack on John C. was in poor taste.

  • Arndt

    Porcell, your feckless and unhappy attack on John C. was in poor taste.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    @Bror: Amen and amen!

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    @Bror: Amen and amen!

  • Stephen

    I just watched a chunk of the president’s speech. I admit he is a dour fellow. He could be more perky at time like this. But no matter what he does, those who don’t like him will criticize him at a time like this it seems to me. He did take the more risky move and send the Seals in rather than bombing the place. And in his speech he did talk about being thankful and how the military works for us in an unseen manner, which is certainly true. Again, I am very grateful. Anyway . . .

    I am old enough to remember the Iran fiasco in the desert that helped sink Jimmy Carter. It seems to me Obama wanted to get it right and had the guts to go for it at the risk of the whole thing crumbling. The Pakistani’s were right there (sheesh!!!), and they didn’t know what was happening. Who knows? They could just as well have jumped in and thought they were under attack. Seems like there were all kinds of things that could have gone wrong. The diplomatic concerns that will have to be cleaned up will be a whole other matter.

    So can we give the guy some credit? He is our president after all, and it is heartening to me to see that this has happened regardless. It is meaningful as a sign of our determination as a nation of free people. And it must be of some satisfaction to all the families of those who have made real sacrifices and who have been victims of terrorism around the world. Why does cynicism and sarcasm rule so easily?

  • Stephen

    I just watched a chunk of the president’s speech. I admit he is a dour fellow. He could be more perky at time like this. But no matter what he does, those who don’t like him will criticize him at a time like this it seems to me. He did take the more risky move and send the Seals in rather than bombing the place. And in his speech he did talk about being thankful and how the military works for us in an unseen manner, which is certainly true. Again, I am very grateful. Anyway . . .

    I am old enough to remember the Iran fiasco in the desert that helped sink Jimmy Carter. It seems to me Obama wanted to get it right and had the guts to go for it at the risk of the whole thing crumbling. The Pakistani’s were right there (sheesh!!!), and they didn’t know what was happening. Who knows? They could just as well have jumped in and thought they were under attack. Seems like there were all kinds of things that could have gone wrong. The diplomatic concerns that will have to be cleaned up will be a whole other matter.

    So can we give the guy some credit? He is our president after all, and it is heartening to me to see that this has happened regardless. It is meaningful as a sign of our determination as a nation of free people. And it must be of some satisfaction to all the families of those who have made real sacrifices and who have been victims of terrorism around the world. Why does cynicism and sarcasm rule so easily?

  • Stephen

    And think how the guys and gals in the field must be feeling right now. I’ll bet it’s a morale booster at least. Pray that it is.

  • Stephen

    And think how the guys and gals in the field must be feeling right now. I’ll bet it’s a morale booster at least. Pray that it is.

  • Tom Hering

    So, Obama got Osama. Only it wasn’t Obama. It was our military. Never mind that Obama is Commander-in-Chief. And never admit we’d give the credit to George W. Bush if he was still the President. We have to do everything we can to downplay Obama’s achievement before 2012. Let’s stay on message, and remember how we hate Obama more than we ever hated Osama. Carry on, my fellow far-right nut jobs. (You know who you are.) :-D

  • Tom Hering

    So, Obama got Osama. Only it wasn’t Obama. It was our military. Never mind that Obama is Commander-in-Chief. And never admit we’d give the credit to George W. Bush if he was still the President. We have to do everything we can to downplay Obama’s achievement before 2012. Let’s stay on message, and remember how we hate Obama more than we ever hated Osama. Carry on, my fellow far-right nut jobs. (You know who you are.) :-D

  • DonS

    Bror @ 40 — well put. My son attends a military university, and called right after after the news broke, reporting an immediate spontaneous celebration on campus, which then apparently lasted through much of the night. We have become aware, over the past couple of years, how much the events of 9/11 impacted him and his friends, though he was only 9 at the time. Talking with these young people at his school, and their reasons for wanting a military career, their love of country and desire to serve and protect it through military service is refreshing to see. The celebrations last night at these military academies, Times Square, and the White House were genuine, spontaneous, and refreshing. Not because lives were taken — that was a necessary evil and I am sobered when any soul enters eternal hell. But rather because our young generation indeed still recognizes what is special and great about America, and that its values and distinctives, and people are well worth defending.

    America promised, when over 3,000 Americans were murdered in cold blood, on our own soil, that the perpetrator, Osama bin laden, would be brought to justice. It took nearly a decade, but justice has been served. May that tenacity and capability of our brave military and intelligence personnel give pause to any future would be terrorist seeking to bring harm to innocent lives. Will it stop future terrorism? Certainly not. Will it prevent some instance of it? I pray so.

  • DonS

    Bror @ 40 — well put. My son attends a military university, and called right after after the news broke, reporting an immediate spontaneous celebration on campus, which then apparently lasted through much of the night. We have become aware, over the past couple of years, how much the events of 9/11 impacted him and his friends, though he was only 9 at the time. Talking with these young people at his school, and their reasons for wanting a military career, their love of country and desire to serve and protect it through military service is refreshing to see. The celebrations last night at these military academies, Times Square, and the White House were genuine, spontaneous, and refreshing. Not because lives were taken — that was a necessary evil and I am sobered when any soul enters eternal hell. But rather because our young generation indeed still recognizes what is special and great about America, and that its values and distinctives, and people are well worth defending.

    America promised, when over 3,000 Americans were murdered in cold blood, on our own soil, that the perpetrator, Osama bin laden, would be brought to justice. It took nearly a decade, but justice has been served. May that tenacity and capability of our brave military and intelligence personnel give pause to any future would be terrorist seeking to bring harm to innocent lives. Will it stop future terrorism? Certainly not. Will it prevent some instance of it? I pray so.

  • Kohler

    Tea-party heads are exploding all over the country today, but it’s still sobering to see the right’s hatred of Obama (“I love what the military does but hate the commander in chief who orders them to do it”) survive even this event. Nonethless, Obama just assured himself four more years. What’s interesting is that he didn’t act last August, when he could have bombed the OBL compound in time for the 2010 elections. Obama takes the long view. And tea-party heads are exploding because of it.

  • Kohler

    Tea-party heads are exploding all over the country today, but it’s still sobering to see the right’s hatred of Obama (“I love what the military does but hate the commander in chief who orders them to do it”) survive even this event. Nonethless, Obama just assured himself four more years. What’s interesting is that he didn’t act last August, when he could have bombed the OBL compound in time for the 2010 elections. Obama takes the long view. And tea-party heads are exploding because of it.

  • Joe

    I think this is a credit to the career military and intelligence community. It appears that they worked a lead across two administrations to finally get Osama. They deserve credit as to both Bush and Obama for hunting the man down.

    btw – whoever posted as Joe @ 41, we’ve already got a Joe around here. As my wife says, we surely don’t need two. Comprende?

  • Joe

    I think this is a credit to the career military and intelligence community. It appears that they worked a lead across two administrations to finally get Osama. They deserve credit as to both Bush and Obama for hunting the man down.

    btw – whoever posted as Joe @ 41, we’ve already got a Joe around here. As my wife says, we surely don’t need two. Comprende?

  • helen

    Don S @ 52
    America promised, when over 3,000 Americans were murdered in cold blood, on our own soil, that the perpetrator, Osama bin laden, would be brought to justice. It took nearly a decade…

    and how many more thousands of American lives, whose dependents get a few hundred dollars compensation compared to the multiple thousands that the dependents of 9/11 victims were paid?

    I get almost daily internet glurge saying, “Support our troops.” but the same people would be the first to scream, “No more taxes” if we ever did support our troops decently!

  • helen

    Don S @ 52
    America promised, when over 3,000 Americans were murdered in cold blood, on our own soil, that the perpetrator, Osama bin laden, would be brought to justice. It took nearly a decade…

    and how many more thousands of American lives, whose dependents get a few hundred dollars compensation compared to the multiple thousands that the dependents of 9/11 victims were paid?

    I get almost daily internet glurge saying, “Support our troops.” but the same people would be the first to scream, “No more taxes” if we ever did support our troops decently!

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    > “I love what the military does but hate
    > the commander in chief who orders them to do it”

    That does stand in stark contrast to the left’s “I love the Commander in Chief, but hate the military he commands,” doesn’t it?

    And no, this doesn’t assure Obama 4 more years. If that was his strategy, he should have waited until much closer to the elections.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    > “I love what the military does but hate
    > the commander in chief who orders them to do it”

    That does stand in stark contrast to the left’s “I love the Commander in Chief, but hate the military he commands,” doesn’t it?

    And no, this doesn’t assure Obama 4 more years. If that was his strategy, he should have waited until much closer to the elections.

  • DonS

    Kohler @ 53: In spring 1991, after Desert Storm, President Bush 41 had a 90% popularity rate in U.S. polling. In November 1992, he lost his bid for re-election.

  • DonS

    Kohler @ 53: In spring 1991, after Desert Storm, President Bush 41 had a 90% popularity rate in U.S. polling. In November 1992, he lost his bid for re-election.

  • Tom Hering

    But Obama is an exceptional campaigner. Bush 41 wasn’t (understatement).

  • Tom Hering

    But Obama is an exceptional campaigner. Bush 41 wasn’t (understatement).

  • Kohler

    As Tom said @51, “[c]arry on . . .”

  • Kohler

    As Tom said @51, “[c]arry on . . .”

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    David C.,

    Over at the Internet Monk, I am always commenting on matters of Christian faith.

    This, now, is politics. When our narcissist President has to insert himself prominently into every sentence, it speaks of the man.

    I’m glad we got that SOB. But Obama still bugs the crap out of me.

    And, by the way, David C., so do you.

    How’s that for “piety”?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    David C.,

    Over at the Internet Monk, I am always commenting on matters of Christian faith.

    This, now, is politics. When our narcissist President has to insert himself prominently into every sentence, it speaks of the man.

    I’m glad we got that SOB. But Obama still bugs the crap out of me.

    And, by the way, David C., so do you.

    How’s that for “piety”?

  • DonS

    Helen @ 55:

    and how many more thousands of American lives, whose dependents get a few hundred dollars compensation compared to the multiple thousands that the dependents of 9/11 victims were paid?

    No one regrets the loss of life of our American military more than me. And I full well recognize that my son may someday join their ranks. However, some things are worth fighting for. Moreover, your comment about compensation, crass in its own right, is utterly wrong. The families of troops killed in battle receive generous benefits, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, though both a one-time cash payment and insurance benefits that the government pays for.

    I get almost daily internet glurge saying, “Support our troops.” but the same people would be the first to scream, “No more taxes” if we ever did support our troops decently!

    We DO support our troops decently. And I have NEVER complained about paying taxes for the provision of our common defense. That is EXACTLY the constitutional role of the federal government. The taxes I complain about are the ones that are extracted for transfer payments and other unconstitutional functions of the federal government.

  • DonS

    Helen @ 55:

    and how many more thousands of American lives, whose dependents get a few hundred dollars compensation compared to the multiple thousands that the dependents of 9/11 victims were paid?

    No one regrets the loss of life of our American military more than me. And I full well recognize that my son may someday join their ranks. However, some things are worth fighting for. Moreover, your comment about compensation, crass in its own right, is utterly wrong. The families of troops killed in battle receive generous benefits, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, though both a one-time cash payment and insurance benefits that the government pays for.

    I get almost daily internet glurge saying, “Support our troops.” but the same people would be the first to scream, “No more taxes” if we ever did support our troops decently!

    We DO support our troops decently. And I have NEVER complained about paying taxes for the provision of our common defense. That is EXACTLY the constitutional role of the federal government. The taxes I complain about are the ones that are extracted for transfer payments and other unconstitutional functions of the federal government.

  • DonS

    Tom @ 58: Well, maybe. But hopefully he will not be crass enough to attempt to ride this event to presidential victory. I guess that remains to be seen.

    I do give President Obama credit for carrying out this mission. He deserves it. But it should not be for the purpose or intent of winning re-election, as Kohler implies.

  • DonS

    Tom @ 58: Well, maybe. But hopefully he will not be crass enough to attempt to ride this event to presidential victory. I guess that remains to be seen.

    I do give President Obama credit for carrying out this mission. He deserves it. But it should not be for the purpose or intent of winning re-election, as Kohler implies.

  • Stephen

    Helen @ 55

    You should of seen the $$ my buddy had to shell out for that made up threat/distraction called Iraq before he went because the sub-standard junk they issued was no good. And hey, they’ve got a store right there on the base! The military apparently has to sell the good stuff to the soldiers because it can’t afford to give it to them. Too busy paying for contracts with corporations (who get enormous tax handouts) for over-priced experimental junk we will never use.

    Uh oh! Now I sound like a conspiracy nut. Or worse, a librrrrl.

    Mike @ 56

    I agree. It cuts both ways.

  • Stephen

    Helen @ 55

    You should of seen the $$ my buddy had to shell out for that made up threat/distraction called Iraq before he went because the sub-standard junk they issued was no good. And hey, they’ve got a store right there on the base! The military apparently has to sell the good stuff to the soldiers because it can’t afford to give it to them. Too busy paying for contracts with corporations (who get enormous tax handouts) for over-priced experimental junk we will never use.

    Uh oh! Now I sound like a conspiracy nut. Or worse, a librrrrl.

    Mike @ 56

    I agree. It cuts both ways.

  • Abby

    “David’s labors, in waging wars and in his home government, are holy works, are true sacrifices, are contests of God, defending the people who had the Word of God against 71] the devil, in order that the knowledge of God might not be entirely extinguished on earth.” From Article III and the Holy Liturgy, The Book of Concord

    Justice.

    I hope we can say that this indeed is part of our “contest” against the devil.

  • Abby

    “David’s labors, in waging wars and in his home government, are holy works, are true sacrifices, are contests of God, defending the people who had the Word of God against 71] the devil, in order that the knowledge of God might not be entirely extinguished on earth.” From Article III and the Holy Liturgy, The Book of Concord

    Justice.

    I hope we can say that this indeed is part of our “contest” against the devil.

  • Kohler

    @61 You wrote, “No one regrets the loss of life of our American military more than me.” Except perhaps the loved ones of those who died. Crass much? And, by the way, it’s “more than I,” not “me.”

  • Kohler

    @61 You wrote, “No one regrets the loss of life of our American military more than me.” Except perhaps the loved ones of those who died. Crass much? And, by the way, it’s “more than I,” not “me.”

  • http://www.Utah-Lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Kohler@53
    I waited to hear Obama last night, I was looking forward to it. I haven’t cared for the man much, it is true. But while he was campaigning I respected him for his oratory skill. I was expecting to see some of that last night, and was sorely disappointed.
    I respect that he gave the mission a go ahead. That he risked a diplomatic relationship with Pakistan to do so and so forth. But for everything he did right, he failed and miserably just where he was expected to shine, and I’m afraid that is going to follow him.

  • http://www.Utah-Lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Kohler@53
    I waited to hear Obama last night, I was looking forward to it. I haven’t cared for the man much, it is true. But while he was campaigning I respected him for his oratory skill. I was expecting to see some of that last night, and was sorely disappointed.
    I respect that he gave the mission a go ahead. That he risked a diplomatic relationship with Pakistan to do so and so forth. But for everything he did right, he failed and miserably just where he was expected to shine, and I’m afraid that is going to follow him.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    If they took him alive, imagine what that would be like. What a confused circus that would be. Where would we put him? How could we interrogate him? Where would he be tried? And maybe our guys didn’t read him his rights, so he’d end up getting off!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    If they took him alive, imagine what that would be like. What a confused circus that would be. Where would we put him? How could we interrogate him? Where would he be tried? And maybe our guys didn’t read him his rights, so he’d end up getting off!

  • Stephen

    DonS

    I hope your son doesn’t have to go AND end up waiting around for veteran’s benefits. We have a number of problems supporting them on the way out and when they get back, not just that they leave without proper equipment unless their families have money (and guess what the income bracket is of those going out!) but the enormous numbers of untreated vets out there, with lots of suicides and untreated mental issues. A large number of the homeless men in this country are vets, many of them still from past wars let alone the ones being damaged from what is going on now. This is going to be an enormous issue for the future which we hide from in my opinion.

    I don’t want to get things off topic, but what I hear in what Helen says is frustration. I feel it very personally. I’m for a strong military and have already expressed my gratitude. But I’m not sure our military budget is concerned nearly so much with the people who serve as it is with satisfying the military/industrial/technological complex that Eisenhower warned us about.

  • Stephen

    DonS

    I hope your son doesn’t have to go AND end up waiting around for veteran’s benefits. We have a number of problems supporting them on the way out and when they get back, not just that they leave without proper equipment unless their families have money (and guess what the income bracket is of those going out!) but the enormous numbers of untreated vets out there, with lots of suicides and untreated mental issues. A large number of the homeless men in this country are vets, many of them still from past wars let alone the ones being damaged from what is going on now. This is going to be an enormous issue for the future which we hide from in my opinion.

    I don’t want to get things off topic, but what I hear in what Helen says is frustration. I feel it very personally. I’m for a strong military and have already expressed my gratitude. But I’m not sure our military budget is concerned nearly so much with the people who serve as it is with satisfying the military/industrial/technological complex that Eisenhower warned us about.

  • Kohler

    @66, like Rosanne Rosannadanna said, It’s always something. I, for one, thought he wore the wrong tie last night.

  • Kohler

    @66, like Rosanne Rosannadanna said, It’s always something. I, for one, thought he wore the wrong tie last night.

  • Cincinnatus

    So, since no one is interested in discussing why this actually matters (I argue that it doesn’t), I’ll throw another wrench into the system:

    The President of the United States is not legally permitted to order the assassination of a foreign political actor. Uh oh? There are semantical routes around this problem, of course, but I’m somewhat surprised that Obama was so very public about how this specific operation was carried out per his direct command. Did he forget about plausible deniability?

  • Cincinnatus

    So, since no one is interested in discussing why this actually matters (I argue that it doesn’t), I’ll throw another wrench into the system:

    The President of the United States is not legally permitted to order the assassination of a foreign political actor. Uh oh? There are semantical routes around this problem, of course, but I’m somewhat surprised that Obama was so very public about how this specific operation was carried out per his direct command. Did he forget about plausible deniability?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Well it looks like the picture of dead Osama that’s going around the news media is fake. It appears to be a composite of OBL (alive) and “some other dead guy.”

    Not surprising, since no one really knows where the picture originated from, and the Government hasn’t officially released any picture.

    News media gets punked again.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Well it looks like the picture of dead Osama that’s going around the news media is fake. It appears to be a composite of OBL (alive) and “some other dead guy.”

    Not surprising, since no one really knows where the picture originated from, and the Government hasn’t officially released any picture.

    News media gets punked again.

  • DonS

    Stephen @ 68: Thanks for your comments on this thread. They are very balanced, and thoughtful.

    Yes, Helen ticked me off a little, I’ll admit it, addressing me personally and making this about taxes, and further making an obviously false assertion that the dependents of those killed in action get ” a few hundred dollars”. It is true that those who are wounded, not killed, fare much more poorly than they should in the VA medical system. I don’t think it’s for lack of defense dollars, but rather, as you say, because we mismanage the money and pursue a lot of stupid military procurement contracts for political, rather than military, reasons. How many times have we seen the Pentagon say they don’t want a program, and then a congressman or senator with “jobs at stake” forces it to proceed or continue. More examples of the corruption of a big government that permits earmarking, political favors, and other gamesmanship. It’s sad that these politicians put their own personal political ambitions over the well being of our brave, loyal, and very competent troops.

  • DonS

    Stephen @ 68: Thanks for your comments on this thread. They are very balanced, and thoughtful.

    Yes, Helen ticked me off a little, I’ll admit it, addressing me personally and making this about taxes, and further making an obviously false assertion that the dependents of those killed in action get ” a few hundred dollars”. It is true that those who are wounded, not killed, fare much more poorly than they should in the VA medical system. I don’t think it’s for lack of defense dollars, but rather, as you say, because we mismanage the money and pursue a lot of stupid military procurement contracts for political, rather than military, reasons. How many times have we seen the Pentagon say they don’t want a program, and then a congressman or senator with “jobs at stake” forces it to proceed or continue. More examples of the corruption of a big government that permits earmarking, political favors, and other gamesmanship. It’s sad that these politicians put their own personal political ambitions over the well being of our brave, loyal, and very competent troops.

  • DonS

    Cincinnatus @ 70: How does Obama qualify as a “political actor”? What government is he a part of? He was a dangerous, murderous, criminal terrorist. No law that I am aware of prevents us from taking such a criminal out. Moreover, my understanding, at least initially, is that this operation was carried out with the permission of the Pakistani government. I guess we will find out more about this in the days ahead.

  • DonS

    Cincinnatus @ 70: How does Obama qualify as a “political actor”? What government is he a part of? He was a dangerous, murderous, criminal terrorist. No law that I am aware of prevents us from taking such a criminal out. Moreover, my understanding, at least initially, is that this operation was carried out with the permission of the Pakistani government. I guess we will find out more about this in the days ahead.

  • DonS

    And, Cincinnatus, it matters because it became we said we would bring justice to Osama for what he did, and we did so, even though it took 10 years. It is important in the world of terrorists for them to understand that we will do what we say, no matter how long it takes. Credibility may not deter the truly insane Muslim fanatic, but it will give pause to many, I suspect.

  • DonS

    And, Cincinnatus, it matters because it became we said we would bring justice to Osama for what he did, and we did so, even though it took 10 years. It is important in the world of terrorists for them to understand that we will do what we say, no matter how long it takes. Credibility may not deter the truly insane Muslim fanatic, but it will give pause to many, I suspect.

  • Steve P.

    In a couple of years he’ll be alive again. We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.

  • Steve P.

    In a couple of years he’ll be alive again. We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.

  • Stephen

    Cinncinatus -

    Well, that’s interesting. But he’s more than a political “actor” it seems to me. He was an international criminal, no? So who does have the authority to kill the son of a bitch? It seems to me just about anyone, whether it is done by trained military forces or not.

    But then perhaps the larger question is one of authority in terms of worldviews and those who oppose what happened are among the Arab world – Hamas and such – who still carry out such criminality. To even call it criminality assumes we (the democratic west) are the ones who have authority and are in the right. That is the heart of the matter, a clash of worldviews, and it seems he brought the question to our attention all the way back with the first Twin Tower attack. It has only intensified. We have to address it on those terms.

    H. Clinton’s words, regardless of what you think of her, I think are accurate as far as a foreign policy stance – that we can’t be waited out, and they’ve got two choices. It’s utter defeat or joining with us. I do think we were hoodwinked into going into Iraq with a series of made up reasons. Perhaps the ulterior motive was to bring the fight to them. That is a strategy I agree with, though I don’t agree with such means as lying to the American people and handing over CIA agents to the media for political reasons to make it happen.

    Anyway, who can really say how this will play out. Symbols are important. The towers were an important symbol in a number of ways and still are. This can be an important symbol as well. Seems we could use one, especially with all the news coming out of protracted fighting with no end in sight. I hope it helps.

  • Stephen

    Cinncinatus -

    Well, that’s interesting. But he’s more than a political “actor” it seems to me. He was an international criminal, no? So who does have the authority to kill the son of a bitch? It seems to me just about anyone, whether it is done by trained military forces or not.

    But then perhaps the larger question is one of authority in terms of worldviews and those who oppose what happened are among the Arab world – Hamas and such – who still carry out such criminality. To even call it criminality assumes we (the democratic west) are the ones who have authority and are in the right. That is the heart of the matter, a clash of worldviews, and it seems he brought the question to our attention all the way back with the first Twin Tower attack. It has only intensified. We have to address it on those terms.

    H. Clinton’s words, regardless of what you think of her, I think are accurate as far as a foreign policy stance – that we can’t be waited out, and they’ve got two choices. It’s utter defeat or joining with us. I do think we were hoodwinked into going into Iraq with a series of made up reasons. Perhaps the ulterior motive was to bring the fight to them. That is a strategy I agree with, though I don’t agree with such means as lying to the American people and handing over CIA agents to the media for political reasons to make it happen.

    Anyway, who can really say how this will play out. Symbols are important. The towers were an important symbol in a number of ways and still are. This can be an important symbol as well. Seems we could use one, especially with all the news coming out of protracted fighting with no end in sight. I hope it helps.

  • Sam

    Obama wanted to finish the job that Bush never finished.
    And he did.

  • Sam

    Obama wanted to finish the job that Bush never finished.
    And he did.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    OBAMA!!!

    He is SO GREAT!

    Just ask him!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    OBAMA!!!

    He is SO GREAT!

    Just ask him!

  • David C.

    Steve M., Come to think of it, I think that in these posts and in those at the internet monk, you’re showing us the same man.

  • David C.

    Steve M., Come to think of it, I think that in these posts and in those at the internet monk, you’re showing us the same man.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    David C.,

    Don’t be an ass.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    David C.,

    Don’t be an ass.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    David C.,

    Must everyone agree with you on everything for you NOT to attack them?

    You started this personal stuff, not me.

    That is all.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    David C.,

    Must everyone agree with you on everything for you NOT to attack them?

    You started this personal stuff, not me.

    That is all.

  • Tom Hering

    Obama is self-aggrandizing, and trumpeted his role in all this.

    Obama is dour, and failed to play the moment for all it’s worth.

    Me? I’m confused. The conservative echo-sphere today is all over the place today. :-(

  • Tom Hering

    Obama is self-aggrandizing, and trumpeted his role in all this.

    Obama is dour, and failed to play the moment for all it’s worth.

    Me? I’m confused. The conservative echo-sphere today is all over the place today. :-(

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Re. pictures….

    News reports now indicate that Bin Laden was shot, twice, in the head, above his left eye, at close range, by a US Navy Seal using either his Sig Sauer handgun, or his modified assault rifle. In either case, at that close of a range, two shots to a man’s head would not leave much behind, and what was left would be very gruesome.

    Aside from gory curiosity, maybe we can just let this go.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Re. pictures….

    News reports now indicate that Bin Laden was shot, twice, in the head, above his left eye, at close range, by a US Navy Seal using either his Sig Sauer handgun, or his modified assault rifle. In either case, at that close of a range, two shots to a man’s head would not leave much behind, and what was left would be very gruesome.

    Aside from gory curiosity, maybe we can just let this go.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Hey, would you two stop fighting here like four year olds? Take it somewhere else, but don’t gum up a perfectly good discussion with your nonsense. FWIW.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    Hey, would you two stop fighting here like four year olds? Take it somewhere else, but don’t gum up a perfectly good discussion with your nonsense. FWIW.

  • helen

    Stephen @ 63
    Uh oh! Now I sound like a conspiracy nut.

    That’s been said about me. But no way a “libirrl”! ;)

  • helen

    Stephen @ 63
    Uh oh! Now I sound like a conspiracy nut.

    That’s been said about me. But no way a “libirrl”! ;)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I really don’t understand how bin Laden’s death could be construed as “a major victory in the war against terrorism”, nor do I see how it was “the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda”, as Obama referred to it.

    To quote President Bush from nearly a decade ago, in reference to bin Laden:

    The idea of focusing on one person is — really indicates to me people don’t understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than one person. And he’s just — he’s a person who’s now been marginalized. …

    And I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don’t know where he is. I — I’ll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became — we shoved him out more and more on the margins.

    If Bush was correct, it seems to me this is more akin to arresting some ex-Nazi in Argentina than some significant achievement or major victory.

    Also, lest we forget, the actual person behind 9/11 was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, not bin Laden.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I really don’t understand how bin Laden’s death could be construed as “a major victory in the war against terrorism”, nor do I see how it was “the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda”, as Obama referred to it.

    To quote President Bush from nearly a decade ago, in reference to bin Laden:

    The idea of focusing on one person is — really indicates to me people don’t understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than one person. And he’s just — he’s a person who’s now been marginalized. …

    And I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don’t know where he is. I — I’ll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became — we shoved him out more and more on the margins.

    If Bush was correct, it seems to me this is more akin to arresting some ex-Nazi in Argentina than some significant achievement or major victory.

    Also, lest we forget, the actual person behind 9/11 was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, not bin Laden.

  • helen

    DonS @ 61 (?)
    The families of troops killed in battle receive generous benefits, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, though both a one-time cash payment and insurance benefits that the government pays for.

    About that, I wouldn’t know. Sounds like it’s better to come home dead than injured, though, if true. Unfortunately, (?) battlefield medicine is better than ever, with all the practice. (Back home, “not so much.”.)

    I have a friend who is supposed to get his medical care from the VA as a veteran now out of the service. He had a problem and went to the nearest VA facility (not at all near his home) where they decided (correctly) that one of the blood vessels in his neck was 50% blocked and the other 95% “but it wasn’t a problem until he showed symptoms.” “What would that be?” he asked. Well, a stroke.
    He tried a month to get a more rational approach and finally took his problem to a private Doctor, who had him in for surgery pretty promptly. He is now in recovery and back at work, having avoided the stroke that could have killed or incapacitated him, and regained half his brain, which was pretty much “running on empty” with a 5% blood supply.

    If Medicare goes the way you seem to want it to, here, I suppose I might sometime meet a Dr. with the same attitude as the ‘pride of the VA’, should I fail to die of something else first.

  • helen

    DonS @ 61 (?)
    The families of troops killed in battle receive generous benefits, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, though both a one-time cash payment and insurance benefits that the government pays for.

    About that, I wouldn’t know. Sounds like it’s better to come home dead than injured, though, if true. Unfortunately, (?) battlefield medicine is better than ever, with all the practice. (Back home, “not so much.”.)

    I have a friend who is supposed to get his medical care from the VA as a veteran now out of the service. He had a problem and went to the nearest VA facility (not at all near his home) where they decided (correctly) that one of the blood vessels in his neck was 50% blocked and the other 95% “but it wasn’t a problem until he showed symptoms.” “What would that be?” he asked. Well, a stroke.
    He tried a month to get a more rational approach and finally took his problem to a private Doctor, who had him in for surgery pretty promptly. He is now in recovery and back at work, having avoided the stroke that could have killed or incapacitated him, and regained half his brain, which was pretty much “running on empty” with a 5% blood supply.

    If Medicare goes the way you seem to want it to, here, I suppose I might sometime meet a Dr. with the same attitude as the ‘pride of the VA’, should I fail to die of something else first.

  • Carl Vehse

    Another terrorist leader’s plans go awry as he reacts to the news that Osama bin Laden was killed. (Translated subtitle language warning!)

  • Carl Vehse

    Another terrorist leader’s plans go awry as he reacts to the news that Osama bin Laden was killed. (Translated subtitle language warning!)

  • WebMonk

    Helen, your math is a bit off – if one artery was carrying in 50% and the other 95%, then his brain was still receiving 55% of its regular total, not 5%.

    (my math bug is acting up again- time to go look at some van Gogh or something :-) )

  • WebMonk

    Helen, your math is a bit off – if one artery was carrying in 50% and the other 95%, then his brain was still receiving 55% of its regular total, not 5%.

    (my math bug is acting up again- time to go look at some van Gogh or something :-) )

  • DonS

    Helen @ 87: OK, well, we agree. I was responding to your statement that the dependents of those killed in action get a few hundred dollars, which just plain isn’t true. I was not addressing the adequacy of VA health care, though, I will repeat what I said above to Stephen @ 72. The shortcomings in VA health care are not because of a shortage of defense spending. It’s about priorities, and political gamesmanship that causes a lot of funding to be mis-directed. It’s also about the inevitable horror of government-provided health care, which is why I would never, ever want to see single-payer government health care in this country.

    If Medicare goes the way you seem to want it to, here, I suppose I might sometime meet a Dr. with the same attitude as the ‘pride of the VA’, should I fail to die of something else first.

    Helen, I think you have me confused with someone else. I would never, ever want Medicare to go the way of VA healthcare. To the contrary, I want to see our health care system completely privatized. The power to obtain humane, prompt, effective care lies in the ability of the consumer to have choices, and power over their care. That will never happen in a single-payer centralized system. Our veterans deserve to be able to use their benefits to procure their own care, just as our seniors should be able to do the same thing through Medicare.

  • DonS

    Helen @ 87: OK, well, we agree. I was responding to your statement that the dependents of those killed in action get a few hundred dollars, which just plain isn’t true. I was not addressing the adequacy of VA health care, though, I will repeat what I said above to Stephen @ 72. The shortcomings in VA health care are not because of a shortage of defense spending. It’s about priorities, and political gamesmanship that causes a lot of funding to be mis-directed. It’s also about the inevitable horror of government-provided health care, which is why I would never, ever want to see single-payer government health care in this country.

    If Medicare goes the way you seem to want it to, here, I suppose I might sometime meet a Dr. with the same attitude as the ‘pride of the VA’, should I fail to die of something else first.

    Helen, I think you have me confused with someone else. I would never, ever want Medicare to go the way of VA healthcare. To the contrary, I want to see our health care system completely privatized. The power to obtain humane, prompt, effective care lies in the ability of the consumer to have choices, and power over their care. That will never happen in a single-payer centralized system. Our veterans deserve to be able to use their benefits to procure their own care, just as our seniors should be able to do the same thing through Medicare.

  • Carl Vehse

    Here’s the video link @88.

  • Carl Vehse

    Here’s the video link @88.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 86: The completion of a 10 year objective, through incredible odds and despite the sheltering and funding of Obama by a significant terrorist network, has both significant morale and message value. It is definitely an important victory in the war on terrorism, because it shows that we can and will do what we say. We will, ultimately, get our man.

    But, you’re right, to the extent that it will by no means end the threat of terror, or our battle against it.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 86: The completion of a 10 year objective, through incredible odds and despite the sheltering and funding of Obama by a significant terrorist network, has both significant morale and message value. It is definitely an important victory in the war on terrorism, because it shows that we can and will do what we say. We will, ultimately, get our man.

    But, you’re right, to the extent that it will by no means end the threat of terror, or our battle against it.

  • DonS

    Oh, I hate that. “Osama”, not “Obama”. I should actually use the preview function.

  • DonS

    Oh, I hate that. “Osama”, not “Obama”. I should actually use the preview function.

  • Stephen

    Tom @ 82

    Holy Cow! Wha . . . I think you just called me a conservative!

  • Stephen

    Tom @ 82

    Holy Cow! Wha . . . I think you just called me a conservative!

  • Stephen

    I’ve been listening to the radio all day and, according to the defense experts ( think tankers and ex-generals), militarily this isn’t a great defeat but symbolically it is huge. It means that our “way” is working. It punctuates what is happneing in the Middle East with the collapse of so many regimes. The movements in the Middle East are actually a refutation of Bin Laden’s ideas, with democratic protests by younger people seeking what we have rather than the ideological dream of a religious totalitarian state he imagined.

    Call me naive, but I think it is frickin’ exciting! I feel like getting drunk (don’t worry I won’t).

  • Stephen

    I’ve been listening to the radio all day and, according to the defense experts ( think tankers and ex-generals), militarily this isn’t a great defeat but symbolically it is huge. It means that our “way” is working. It punctuates what is happneing in the Middle East with the collapse of so many regimes. The movements in the Middle East are actually a refutation of Bin Laden’s ideas, with democratic protests by younger people seeking what we have rather than the ideological dream of a religious totalitarian state he imagined.

    Call me naive, but I think it is frickin’ exciting! I feel like getting drunk (don’t worry I won’t).

  • Porcell

    Todd, at eighty-six, I really don’t understand how bin Laden’s death could be construed as “a major victory in the war against terrorism…

    Actually, while Bush waged a wide war against terrorism and didn’t obsess about getting Obama, he, also, was interested in nailing Obama. In last night’s government background briefing, we learn the following:

    One courier in particular had our constant attention. Detainees gave us his nom de guerre or his nickname and identified him as both a protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of September 11th, and a trusted assistant of Abu Faraj al-Libbi, the former number three of al Qaeda who was captured in 2005.

    Detainees also identified this man as one of the few al Qaeda couriers trusted by bin Laden. They indicated he might be living with and protecting bin Laden. But for years, we were unable to identify his true name or his location.

    These were the detainees that were likely questioned with the enhanced interrogation techniques that Bush authorized. If one takes a close look at the steps that eventually led to the important killing of Bin Laden, the Bush administration was directly involved.

    Bush, as usual, was charitable in giving Obama credit for what he regards in fact as a … momentous achievement[that] marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001

    Todd, quoting Bush out of context, is being rather disingenuous in claiming that this is not a major victory for America.

  • Porcell

    Todd, at eighty-six, I really don’t understand how bin Laden’s death could be construed as “a major victory in the war against terrorism…

    Actually, while Bush waged a wide war against terrorism and didn’t obsess about getting Obama, he, also, was interested in nailing Obama. In last night’s government background briefing, we learn the following:

    One courier in particular had our constant attention. Detainees gave us his nom de guerre or his nickname and identified him as both a protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of September 11th, and a trusted assistant of Abu Faraj al-Libbi, the former number three of al Qaeda who was captured in 2005.

    Detainees also identified this man as one of the few al Qaeda couriers trusted by bin Laden. They indicated he might be living with and protecting bin Laden. But for years, we were unable to identify his true name or his location.

    These were the detainees that were likely questioned with the enhanced interrogation techniques that Bush authorized. If one takes a close look at the steps that eventually led to the important killing of Bin Laden, the Bush administration was directly involved.

    Bush, as usual, was charitable in giving Obama credit for what he regards in fact as a … momentous achievement[that] marks a victory for America, for people who seek peace around the world, and for all those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001

    Todd, quoting Bush out of context, is being rather disingenuous in claiming that this is not a major victory for America.

  • Kohler

    Porcell, I share your view that OBL’s death is good for America, but there’s not the slightest evidence that torture resulted in information necessary to learn where he was.

  • Kohler

    Porcell, I share your view that OBL’s death is good for America, but there’s not the slightest evidence that torture resulted in information necessary to learn where he was.

  • Stephen

    Well, I knew you could ruin it for me Porcell. You had to bring up Bush’s appetite for torture and the vile memory of that disgraced lacky Gonzales who was supposed to be minding the law enforcement store instead of spitting on it. The fairy tale is over.

    And yet, there is the goodness and mercy of God that is yet, in, with, and under all things, a certainty, regardless of our manifest sins. I am grateful, above all, to God almighty.

  • Stephen

    Well, I knew you could ruin it for me Porcell. You had to bring up Bush’s appetite for torture and the vile memory of that disgraced lacky Gonzales who was supposed to be minding the law enforcement store instead of spitting on it. The fairy tale is over.

    And yet, there is the goodness and mercy of God that is yet, in, with, and under all things, a certainty, regardless of our manifest sins. I am grateful, above all, to God almighty.

  • Porcell

    Interesting detail in a press conference today from John Brennan, national security advisor to the president:

    Talking about the operation, Brennan said that the forces who went in found Osama being shielded by a woman believed to be his wife. “It really speaks to just how false his narrative has been over the years,” he said, talking about how Osama had allowed a woman to shield him, along with living, not on the front lines, but in a luxurious compound.

    So, the infamous Bin Laden ends life as a colossal wimp!

  • Porcell

    Interesting detail in a press conference today from John Brennan, national security advisor to the president:

    Talking about the operation, Brennan said that the forces who went in found Osama being shielded by a woman believed to be his wife. “It really speaks to just how false his narrative has been over the years,” he said, talking about how Osama had allowed a woman to shield him, along with living, not on the front lines, but in a luxurious compound.

    So, the infamous Bin Laden ends life as a colossal wimp!

  • Clare

    As Christians, how do we pray for the soul of Osama bin Laden, yet still celebrate his death?

  • Clare

    As Christians, how do we pray for the soul of Osama bin Laden, yet still celebrate his death?

  • Porcell

    Pardon, at ninety-six, I meant to say…[Bush] didn’t obsess about getting Bin Laden. Perhaps a Freudian slip.

  • Porcell

    Pardon, at ninety-six, I meant to say…[Bush] didn’t obsess about getting Bin Laden. Perhaps a Freudian slip.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    What bothers me is that we neglect the decade long work to build an effective offensive counter-terrorism force in this nation.

    We took the best elements of forensics, intelligence, counter-terrorism, special operations and melded them into a force that can reach any enemy, anywhere on negligible intelligence.

    Instead we’re discussing Obama as if the military wouldn’t have accomplished the same task no matter which politician was residing in the White House. Clearly it didn’t as Obama adopted Bush’s position on every significant military issue upon assuming office.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    What bothers me is that we neglect the decade long work to build an effective offensive counter-terrorism force in this nation.

    We took the best elements of forensics, intelligence, counter-terrorism, special operations and melded them into a force that can reach any enemy, anywhere on negligible intelligence.

    Instead we’re discussing Obama as if the military wouldn’t have accomplished the same task no matter which politician was residing in the White House. Clearly it didn’t as Obama adopted Bush’s position on every significant military issue upon assuming office.

  • Michael Smpson

    Not quiet, SAL. Bush’s focus was Iraq, not Bin Laden. Obama, on other hand, focused more on Afghanistan, where he hoped to find Bin Laden. In the 2008 election, McCain even said he wouldn’t invade Pakistan unilaterally to get Bin Laden, while Obama said he would. I think Obama has been focused on Bin Laden from early on, and now we have the consequence.

    I realize some on the right would rather put their hand on a hot stove than pay Obama the slightest compliment, but we must admit that he ordered what transpired yesterday. Obama’s gone up in my estimation.

  • Michael Smpson

    Not quiet, SAL. Bush’s focus was Iraq, not Bin Laden. Obama, on other hand, focused more on Afghanistan, where he hoped to find Bin Laden. In the 2008 election, McCain even said he wouldn’t invade Pakistan unilaterally to get Bin Laden, while Obama said he would. I think Obama has been focused on Bin Laden from early on, and now we have the consequence.

    I realize some on the right would rather put their hand on a hot stove than pay Obama the slightest compliment, but we must admit that he ordered what transpired yesterday. Obama’s gone up in my estimation.

  • Porcell

    Stephen, at ninety-eight, one may be grateful to the deity and, also, for Pres. Bush’s aggressive interrogation measures that were well within the bounds of the legal definition of torture. The accusation of torture from the beginning amounted to media hype.

    An excellent book on this subject is Marc Thiessen’s book Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack on America.

    Thiessen;s view is that in barring aggressive interrogation, Obama has made America vulnerable to future attacks by the Islamic Fascists.

  • Porcell

    Stephen, at ninety-eight, one may be grateful to the deity and, also, for Pres. Bush’s aggressive interrogation measures that were well within the bounds of the legal definition of torture. The accusation of torture from the beginning amounted to media hype.

    An excellent book on this subject is Marc Thiessen’s book Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack on America.

    Thiessen;s view is that in barring aggressive interrogation, Obama has made America vulnerable to future attacks by the Islamic Fascists.

  • Kohler

    Porcell, is ‘the deity’ very happy that you’re making things up? But if you’re going to praise torture, man up and call it what is is: torture. The phrase “enhanced interrogation techniques” is for colossal wimps.

  • Kohler

    Porcell, is ‘the deity’ very happy that you’re making things up? But if you’re going to praise torture, man up and call it what is is: torture. The phrase “enhanced interrogation techniques” is for colossal wimps.

  • Cincinnatus

    Porcell, I’m not sure what your angle is here, but you’re beating a very dead horse. First, I think most Americans carry a bad taste in their mouths from past discussions of torture and “enhanced interrogations.”

    Second, the question was largely settled: torture is not permitted constitutionally or under international law.

    Third, appeals to ends are specious, at least if one recognizes eternal moral verities or Kantian moral precepts: the ends do not justify the means.

    Fourth, you claim that not torturing “has made America vulnerable to future attacks by the Islamic Fascists.” That may very well be true, but it’s a moot point because you could quite literally make the same argument about anything, no matter how atrocious. You mean Obama hasn’t invaded Pakistan? He hasn’t forcefully secured all nukes in the former USSR? He hasn’t assassinated [fill in the blank]? He hasn’t installed puppet governments in several other Middle Eastern nations? Just because something can get results doesn’t mean it’s acceptable (see point Three above). Nor is it a sufficient argument for its merits. America would probably also be a lot safer if everyone carried national ID cards, if police could carry out warrantless searches, if the FCC could forbid the publication and promulgation of anti-American propaganda, and if the DHS could pre-approve and trace all travel by citizens and/or foreign nationals.

    Also, it’s unfalsifiable. The United States hasn’t suffered a terrorist attack for 10 years, including the two years that Obama has been refusing to torture people (allegedly). So there’s really no ground to stay on here.

  • Cincinnatus

    Porcell, I’m not sure what your angle is here, but you’re beating a very dead horse. First, I think most Americans carry a bad taste in their mouths from past discussions of torture and “enhanced interrogations.”

    Second, the question was largely settled: torture is not permitted constitutionally or under international law.

    Third, appeals to ends are specious, at least if one recognizes eternal moral verities or Kantian moral precepts: the ends do not justify the means.

    Fourth, you claim that not torturing “has made America vulnerable to future attacks by the Islamic Fascists.” That may very well be true, but it’s a moot point because you could quite literally make the same argument about anything, no matter how atrocious. You mean Obama hasn’t invaded Pakistan? He hasn’t forcefully secured all nukes in the former USSR? He hasn’t assassinated [fill in the blank]? He hasn’t installed puppet governments in several other Middle Eastern nations? Just because something can get results doesn’t mean it’s acceptable (see point Three above). Nor is it a sufficient argument for its merits. America would probably also be a lot safer if everyone carried national ID cards, if police could carry out warrantless searches, if the FCC could forbid the publication and promulgation of anti-American propaganda, and if the DHS could pre-approve and trace all travel by citizens and/or foreign nationals.

    Also, it’s unfalsifiable. The United States hasn’t suffered a terrorist attack for 10 years, including the two years that Obama has been refusing to torture people (allegedly). So there’s really no ground to stay on here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I wonder about the whole thing. Bin Laden was living just down the street from the Pakistan Military Academy and a few hundred feet from a couple of hospitals in one of the nicest areas in Pakistan, and no one knew?

    It stinks. Why did Pakistan give him up now?

    Will this help us end these endless invasions. I am so war weary. I just want it to be over. It doesn’t seen like we are defending ourselves. Aren’t we just wasting money and the lives of our soldiers.

    Bin Laden’s location

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I wonder about the whole thing. Bin Laden was living just down the street from the Pakistan Military Academy and a few hundred feet from a couple of hospitals in one of the nicest areas in Pakistan, and no one knew?

    It stinks. Why did Pakistan give him up now?

    Will this help us end these endless invasions. I am so war weary. I just want it to be over. It doesn’t seen like we are defending ourselves. Aren’t we just wasting money and the lives of our soldiers.

    Bin Laden’s location

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #103

    Michael, there’s no evidence that the organizations that made this happen received any additional resources under Obama that weren’t in the pipeline under Bush.

    The President just isn’t that consequential in something as large as the intelligence community. A President can turn a ship that large in just a year or two.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #103

    Michael, there’s no evidence that the organizations that made this happen received any additional resources under Obama that weren’t in the pipeline under Bush.

    The President just isn’t that consequential in something as large as the intelligence community. A President can turn a ship that large in just a year or two.

  • Michael

    The news accounts contradict you, SAL. Once Bin Laden’s location was discovered, Obama personally approved the subsequent steps that lead to the attack.

    But what’s wrong with giving credit where it’s due? When Tom Brady throws a touchdown pass, I cheer; I don’t say, well, anyone who quarterbacks for Bill Belichick would do the same.

  • Michael

    The news accounts contradict you, SAL. Once Bin Laden’s location was discovered, Obama personally approved the subsequent steps that lead to the attack.

    But what’s wrong with giving credit where it’s due? When Tom Brady throws a touchdown pass, I cheer; I don’t say, well, anyone who quarterbacks for Bill Belichick would do the same.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Stephen (@95), I really don’t see where you get that “the movements in the Middle East are actually a refutation of Bin Laden’s ideas”. Most of the regimes that have been toppled (or are currently being resisted) were secular, not Islamist. And the Islamists have supported the revolutions, have they not? I also think it’s a bit much to call the protesters “democratic”. They’re anti-authoritarian, sure, but that doesn’t equal pro-democracy.

    Porcell (@96), you can complain that I “quoted Bush out of context”, but that doesn’t make it so. Have a look at the press conference transcript yourself, and quote for us all the “context” that mitigates what I quoted to a fairly extensive degree. Knock yourself out.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Stephen (@95), I really don’t see where you get that “the movements in the Middle East are actually a refutation of Bin Laden’s ideas”. Most of the regimes that have been toppled (or are currently being resisted) were secular, not Islamist. And the Islamists have supported the revolutions, have they not? I also think it’s a bit much to call the protesters “democratic”. They’re anti-authoritarian, sure, but that doesn’t equal pro-democracy.

    Porcell (@96), you can complain that I “quoted Bush out of context”, but that doesn’t make it so. Have a look at the press conference transcript yourself, and quote for us all the “context” that mitigates what I quoted to a fairly extensive degree. Knock yourself out.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG asked (@107), “Why did Pakistan give him up now?” But Pakistan didn’t “give him up”! We sent in our Seals to get him. Pakistan was almost certainly sitting on their butts, as they have for most of the “War on Terror”.

    It raises all sorts of interesting questions about national sovereignty and tactics that we Americans almost certainly would scream about if they were used on us, but oh well.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG asked (@107), “Why did Pakistan give him up now?” But Pakistan didn’t “give him up”! We sent in our Seals to get him. Pakistan was almost certainly sitting on their butts, as they have for most of the “War on Terror”.

    It raises all sorts of interesting questions about national sovereignty and tactics that we Americans almost certainly would scream about if they were used on us, but oh well.

  • Cincinnatus

    Apropos tODD@111, Pakistan is actually quite offended and upset that we carried out this operation without their express permission, citing precisely a violation of sovereignty. Is such a claim legitimate?

    I think it might indeed be fruitful to ask whether we would appreciate such an operation by Pakistanis to extricate (or execute!) someone in, say, Oklahoma. Are there meaningful laws and customs to recognize here (such as national sovereignty) or is the international arena truly a realm where the strongest assert their will via brute force?

  • Cincinnatus

    Apropos tODD@111, Pakistan is actually quite offended and upset that we carried out this operation without their express permission, citing precisely a violation of sovereignty. Is such a claim legitimate?

    I think it might indeed be fruitful to ask whether we would appreciate such an operation by Pakistanis to extricate (or execute!) someone in, say, Oklahoma. Are there meaningful laws and customs to recognize here (such as national sovereignty) or is the international arena truly a realm where the strongest assert their will via brute force?

  • Jonathan

    Cincinnatus, good point, but don’t limit your hypothetical to ‘someone’ Pakistan wants. Make that ‘someone’ Pakistan’s most heinous mass murderer and throw in the supposition that the US intelligence service is sympathetic to not telling Pakistan where the man is, much less turning him over. And complicate it by positing that if Pakistan complains, it will tip off this ‘someone’ and his symptathizers that Pakistan knows where he is.

  • Jonathan

    Cincinnatus, good point, but don’t limit your hypothetical to ‘someone’ Pakistan wants. Make that ‘someone’ Pakistan’s most heinous mass murderer and throw in the supposition that the US intelligence service is sympathetic to not telling Pakistan where the man is, much less turning him over. And complicate it by positing that if Pakistan complains, it will tip off this ‘someone’ and his symptathizers that Pakistan knows where he is.

  • Cincinnatus

    Ok, fine, Jonathan: Argentina was very upset when Israel secretly kidnapped and extradited Adolf Eichmann in 1960ish. Legitimate claim? I think they had a point. America bestrides the world like a colossus, and we act accordingly. Should we?

  • Cincinnatus

    Ok, fine, Jonathan: Argentina was very upset when Israel secretly kidnapped and extradited Adolf Eichmann in 1960ish. Legitimate claim? I think they had a point. America bestrides the world like a colossus, and we act accordingly. Should we?

  • Jonathan

    Cincinnatus, No, we should not. But we do, don’t we? And when we do, we demand unqualified success. Odd – if this attack had failed, Obama would be ripped as a failure; justice be darned. Clare’s question @100 remains the most poignant, which is why no one answers it. I do not know the answer. [What if the 'war on terror' had been, from day one, a unified world police action to capture Bin Laden, rather than our invasions of two nations?]

    Eichmann’s a good point. Israel tried him before finding him guilty and hanging him. Shouldn’t the US have tried to being Osama Bin Laden back alive?

  • Jonathan

    Cincinnatus, No, we should not. But we do, don’t we? And when we do, we demand unqualified success. Odd – if this attack had failed, Obama would be ripped as a failure; justice be darned. Clare’s question @100 remains the most poignant, which is why no one answers it. I do not know the answer. [What if the 'war on terror' had been, from day one, a unified world police action to capture Bin Laden, rather than our invasions of two nations?]

    Eichmann’s a good point. Israel tried him before finding him guilty and hanging him. Shouldn’t the US have tried to being Osama Bin Laden back alive?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus asked (@112), “is the international arena truly a realm where the strongest assert their will via brute force?”

    I think we both know the answer to that question. If not, a quick review of the past decade or so might help. Not saying that’s how it ought to be, but the de facto situation seems pretty clear.

    And I’m sorry, but referring to bin Laden as a “murderer” seems more based in rhetoric than fact. There is a distinction between actually killing people yourself, masterminding an event in which others will kill people, and leading an organization in which others mastermind events in which others kill people. Bin Laden was clearly guilty of this last description, but that doesn’t make him a “murderer”.

    But, in light of that, running with Cincinnatus’ hypothetical, who do you think Pakistan would be most likely to try and assassinate in our country? Maybe someone who had ordered attacks against many Pakistanis, such that the average Pakistani considered this person a “mass murderer”? And what if the US government refused to turn over this person because they believed he was actually in the right when he ordered those attacks? So the Pakistanis infiltrate America and execute their own attack to carry out “justice”. How do we feel about that, America? We’re okay with it?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus asked (@112), “is the international arena truly a realm where the strongest assert their will via brute force?”

    I think we both know the answer to that question. If not, a quick review of the past decade or so might help. Not saying that’s how it ought to be, but the de facto situation seems pretty clear.

    And I’m sorry, but referring to bin Laden as a “murderer” seems more based in rhetoric than fact. There is a distinction between actually killing people yourself, masterminding an event in which others will kill people, and leading an organization in which others mastermind events in which others kill people. Bin Laden was clearly guilty of this last description, but that doesn’t make him a “murderer”.

    But, in light of that, running with Cincinnatus’ hypothetical, who do you think Pakistan would be most likely to try and assassinate in our country? Maybe someone who had ordered attacks against many Pakistanis, such that the average Pakistani considered this person a “mass murderer”? And what if the US government refused to turn over this person because they believed he was actually in the right when he ordered those attacks? So the Pakistanis infiltrate America and execute their own attack to carry out “justice”. How do we feel about that, America? We’re okay with it?

  • Jonathan

    U.S. Forces–winning “hearts and minds”!

    One in the heart, and one in the mind.

    Priceless!

  • Jonathan

    U.S. Forces–winning “hearts and minds”!

    One in the heart, and one in the mind.

    Priceless!

  • Jonathan

    tODD, there’s no legal distinction between one who commits a murder and the one who aids or facilitates it. The latter is the accomplice of the former and is punished identically. If Bin Laden made the 9/11 hijackings possible, he is a murderer.

    btw, the “Jonathan” who posted @117 is different from the one who posted @113, 115, and here.

  • Jonathan

    tODD, there’s no legal distinction between one who commits a murder and the one who aids or facilitates it. The latter is the accomplice of the former and is punished identically. If Bin Laden made the 9/11 hijackings possible, he is a murderer.

    btw, the “Jonathan” who posted @117 is different from the one who posted @113, 115, and here.

  • Stephen

    Todd@ 110

    I think the fact that we are not seeing what happened in Iran in 79 with totalitarian Ayatollahs sweeping into power is a positive sign. That seems to have been the Bin Laden vision – that his actions would usher in a utopian Islamic state. Never happened, never will.

    The picture I have in mind is especially where all this seems to have started up – in Iran last year. I don’t expect there will not be an Islamic influence, but I don’t see the Islamic extremists at the forefront. Of course they are often loud, and they still terrify people. It’s a tug of war right now. But it seems like there is a more moderate, westward-leaning change that is happening. Or maybe I’m optimistic. I think Iran, and for that matter the Taliban, is out there as a lesson no one really wants to follow, not really. Just my opinion.

    And the spoiled elections in Iran are not over, and Iran is the intellectual and cultural dynamo of the Middle East. A lot of it seems to be the influence of the Internet. No matter that there is all kinds of ambivalence about the US, free speech is having its effects. It is very disorganized, but this move for human rights isn’t without a voice or ideals, and it is interesting how we are seeing the “domino effect” feared during the Vietnam era, or something akin to it, but with consequences that may actually move advantage westward. And Islamic regime is not going to give people the human rights they have been dying for and the youth know that. Iran and the Taliban are the proof.

    My sense is that the cultural/historical forces of western culture are simply too powerful right now for these countries that are breaking free from extreme inequities for them not to come in the direction of the west toward democracy. There is simply no other model to hold up. I’m sure it will take years of continued experimentation, but they do have many/some who were educated in the west to guide that process. They’re not educated anywhere else that I know of. The terrorists/extremists will become less and less popular in the same way as the dictators have for upsetting the general peace.

    Oh well, I’m optimistic.

  • Stephen

    Todd@ 110

    I think the fact that we are not seeing what happened in Iran in 79 with totalitarian Ayatollahs sweeping into power is a positive sign. That seems to have been the Bin Laden vision – that his actions would usher in a utopian Islamic state. Never happened, never will.

    The picture I have in mind is especially where all this seems to have started up – in Iran last year. I don’t expect there will not be an Islamic influence, but I don’t see the Islamic extremists at the forefront. Of course they are often loud, and they still terrify people. It’s a tug of war right now. But it seems like there is a more moderate, westward-leaning change that is happening. Or maybe I’m optimistic. I think Iran, and for that matter the Taliban, is out there as a lesson no one really wants to follow, not really. Just my opinion.

    And the spoiled elections in Iran are not over, and Iran is the intellectual and cultural dynamo of the Middle East. A lot of it seems to be the influence of the Internet. No matter that there is all kinds of ambivalence about the US, free speech is having its effects. It is very disorganized, but this move for human rights isn’t without a voice or ideals, and it is interesting how we are seeing the “domino effect” feared during the Vietnam era, or something akin to it, but with consequences that may actually move advantage westward. And Islamic regime is not going to give people the human rights they have been dying for and the youth know that. Iran and the Taliban are the proof.

    My sense is that the cultural/historical forces of western culture are simply too powerful right now for these countries that are breaking free from extreme inequities for them not to come in the direction of the west toward democracy. There is simply no other model to hold up. I’m sure it will take years of continued experimentation, but they do have many/some who were educated in the west to guide that process. They’re not educated anywhere else that I know of. The terrorists/extremists will become less and less popular in the same way as the dictators have for upsetting the general peace.

    Oh well, I’m optimistic.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #109
    That’s a poor analogy that the public often has about military operations.

    The President isn’t a Quarterback. He’s more like a team owner. His job is to give experts resources and get out of the way.

    This outcome involved intelligence and military operations going back several years. This outcome involved thousands of men and women who were more instrumental than the President. I don’t care to hear endlessly about a President’s non-essential role while these secret squirrels in the black world go unsung.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #109
    That’s a poor analogy that the public often has about military operations.

    The President isn’t a Quarterback. He’s more like a team owner. His job is to give experts resources and get out of the way.

    This outcome involved intelligence and military operations going back several years. This outcome involved thousands of men and women who were more instrumental than the President. I don’t care to hear endlessly about a President’s non-essential role while these secret squirrels in the black world go unsung.

  • Porcell

    Cincinnatus, at 106, what hard evidence do you have that the Bush administration committed “torture?.” The truth is that the Bush administration both legally and in execution kept their aggressive interrogation methods within the bounds of international law.

    Also, Pakistan wanted America’s help in defeating the Taliban. America consented with among many conditions that on the matter of Bin Laden we would act independently if necessary within Pakistan.

    You and Todd are involved in an abstract discussion of the rights of a state on this issue.

  • Porcell

    Cincinnatus, at 106, what hard evidence do you have that the Bush administration committed “torture?.” The truth is that the Bush administration both legally and in execution kept their aggressive interrogation methods within the bounds of international law.

    Also, Pakistan wanted America’s help in defeating the Taliban. America consented with among many conditions that on the matter of Bin Laden we would act independently if necessary within Pakistan.

    You and Todd are involved in an abstract discussion of the rights of a state on this issue.

  • helen

    DonS @ 65
    I hope it will make you feel a little better to know that I meant “the people who send me internet glurge” rather than the members of this list, when I made that particular remark about “No more taxes”! [I did wonder why you came back so sharply!]

  • helen

    DonS @ 65
    I hope it will make you feel a little better to know that I meant “the people who send me internet glurge” rather than the members of this list, when I made that particular remark about “No more taxes”! [I did wonder why you came back so sharply!]

  • helen

    Webmonk @ ?
    I don’t think brain circulation works exactly like that. There are some primary connections to each half, although I’m sure that’s not the whole story either. (Not a brain surgeon!)

  • helen

    Webmonk @ ?
    I don’t think brain circulation works exactly like that. There are some primary connections to each half, although I’m sure that’s not the whole story either. (Not a brain surgeon!)

  • Tom Hering

    “… what hard evidence do you have that the Bush administration committed ‘torture?.’” – @ 104.

    W’s “bushisms” were torture. I laughed so hard it hurt. Bad.

  • Tom Hering

    “… what hard evidence do you have that the Bush administration committed ‘torture?.’” – @ 104.

    W’s “bushisms” were torture. I laughed so hard it hurt. Bad.

  • Cincinnatus

    Porcell@104: Far be it from me to engage in a theoretically robust conversation about the serious questions here.

    In other news, I thought it was fairly accepted that Bush’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” did constitute some form of “torture.” The question wasn’t whether such tactics were torturous, but whether they were permissible in the quest for information.

    Also, which Pakistan wanted our help in defeating the Taliban? The one that is Taliban or Taliban-controlled? The part claiming we have just violated their national sovereignty? Or perhaps you mean the one that has forbidden us from invading their territory? Maybe you mean the Pakistan that has repeatedly asked us to stop launching unmanned drone attacks against Pakistanis and/or in Pakistani airspace?

    I’m aware that at one point in the past they requested or at least rhetorically welcomed our assistance. I don’t think such statements count as standing offers devoid of conditions, however.

  • Cincinnatus

    Porcell@104: Far be it from me to engage in a theoretically robust conversation about the serious questions here.

    In other news, I thought it was fairly accepted that Bush’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” did constitute some form of “torture.” The question wasn’t whether such tactics were torturous, but whether they were permissible in the quest for information.

    Also, which Pakistan wanted our help in defeating the Taliban? The one that is Taliban or Taliban-controlled? The part claiming we have just violated their national sovereignty? Or perhaps you mean the one that has forbidden us from invading their territory? Maybe you mean the Pakistan that has repeatedly asked us to stop launching unmanned drone attacks against Pakistanis and/or in Pakistani airspace?

    I’m aware that at one point in the past they requested or at least rhetorically welcomed our assistance. I don’t think such statements count as standing offers devoid of conditions, however.

  • Cincinnatus

    I should have also mentioned the Pakistani government that has been actively colluding with the Taliban for at least five years, the Pakistan that has accepted billions of dollars in American military aid and done jack-squat with it (except perhaps fortify themselves against India and the U.S.), and the Pakistan that is at least as hostile to the United States as the Taliban itself.

  • Cincinnatus

    I should have also mentioned the Pakistani government that has been actively colluding with the Taliban for at least five years, the Pakistan that has accepted billions of dollars in American military aid and done jack-squat with it (except perhaps fortify themselves against India and the U.S.), and the Pakistan that is at least as hostile to the United States as the Taliban itself.

  • Tom Hering

    I swear the comments here were up to 120 at one point. Then about 15 of them suddenly disappeared, including mine @ 82 (see @ 85).

  • Tom Hering

    I swear the comments here were up to 120 at one point. Then about 15 of them suddenly disappeared, including mine @ 82 (see @ 85).

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, Tom, the comments are misnumbered somehow. My comment shows up as 94 but tODD @ 97 referred to it as 107.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yeah, Tom, the comments are misnumbered somehow. My comment shows up as 94 but tODD @ 97 referred to it as 107.

  • Tom Hering

    Well, my 82 is back, but it’s 81 now. Weird.

  • Tom Hering

    Well, my 82 is back, but it’s 81 now. Weird.

  • WebMonk

    Helen 122, in the short run it doesn’t work like that, you’re correct. But it didn’t sound like his blocked arteries had suddenly occurred. If given time, the blood vessels tend to adjust and grow around to make up for the changing pattern of blood supply.

    If that level of blockage had happened suddenly, then half his brain would have been dead because 5% is worse than most strokes. A lot of strokes are 80% blockage and severely harm the brain. A 95% stroke to an entire hemisphere – he would be a vegetable if it had happened quickly.

    Fortunately it didn’t, and his blood vessels had time to adjust and regrow/reroute to share the available blood supply throughout the brain. He had (roughly) 55% of normal blood supply, and probably a bit more.

    That is in NO way saying it wasn’t serious, it was! It just wasn’t 5%. At 5% blood supply to the brain, you’re dead.

  • WebMonk

    Helen 122, in the short run it doesn’t work like that, you’re correct. But it didn’t sound like his blocked arteries had suddenly occurred. If given time, the blood vessels tend to adjust and grow around to make up for the changing pattern of blood supply.

    If that level of blockage had happened suddenly, then half his brain would have been dead because 5% is worse than most strokes. A lot of strokes are 80% blockage and severely harm the brain. A 95% stroke to an entire hemisphere – he would be a vegetable if it had happened quickly.

    Fortunately it didn’t, and his blood vessels had time to adjust and regrow/reroute to share the available blood supply throughout the brain. He had (roughly) 55% of normal blood supply, and probably a bit more.

    That is in NO way saying it wasn’t serious, it was! It just wasn’t 5%. At 5% blood supply to the brain, you’re dead.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    ” Hey, would you two stop fighting here like four year olds?”

    Sorry. I forgot that his holiness was here.

    Luther could have learned a lot from the likes of you, Rev. McCain.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    ” Hey, would you two stop fighting here like four year olds?”

    Sorry. I forgot that his holiness was here.

    Luther could have learned a lot from the likes of you, Rev. McCain.

  • helen

    Webmonk @ 129
    Helen 122, in the short run it doesn’t work like that, you’re correct. But it didn’t sound like his blocked arteries had suddenly occurred. If given time, the blood vessels tend to adjust and grow around to make up for the changing pattern of blood supply.

    Thanks. That’s logical. I was catching scraps of conversation in a group so I didn’t have the whole story.
    He said he had the blockages in his neck as I described and the grandaddy of all headaches and some blood pressure problems after the surgeon cleaned them out.

    Clare May 2, 2011 at 4:40 pm
    As Christians, how do we pray for the soul of Osama bin Laden, yet still celebrate his death?

    Clare, as a Lutheran Christian I don’t pray for the soul of bin Laden because I believe his eternal fate was settled since he was not a believer in the Triune God.
    I believe Luther said somewhere that we might pray once or so for the souls of believers but it was more appropriate to thank God that they were in heaven.

    That said, I’m not “celebrating” this death either. Osama bin Laden may be gone but plenty of people still exist who think that their eternal lives will be enhanced if they kill Christians. And they are doing it, even in countries which are not primarily Muslim.

    Let us rather pray for believers in Christ, that they hold to their faith, whatever comes in this world.

  • helen

    Webmonk @ 129
    Helen 122, in the short run it doesn’t work like that, you’re correct. But it didn’t sound like his blocked arteries had suddenly occurred. If given time, the blood vessels tend to adjust and grow around to make up for the changing pattern of blood supply.

    Thanks. That’s logical. I was catching scraps of conversation in a group so I didn’t have the whole story.
    He said he had the blockages in his neck as I described and the grandaddy of all headaches and some blood pressure problems after the surgeon cleaned them out.

    Clare May 2, 2011 at 4:40 pm
    As Christians, how do we pray for the soul of Osama bin Laden, yet still celebrate his death?

    Clare, as a Lutheran Christian I don’t pray for the soul of bin Laden because I believe his eternal fate was settled since he was not a believer in the Triune God.
    I believe Luther said somewhere that we might pray once or so for the souls of believers but it was more appropriate to thank God that they were in heaven.

    That said, I’m not “celebrating” this death either. Osama bin Laden may be gone but plenty of people still exist who think that their eternal lives will be enhanced if they kill Christians. And they are doing it, even in countries which are not primarily Muslim.

    Let us rather pray for believers in Christ, that they hold to their faith, whatever comes in this world.

  • helen

    I didn’t mean to suggest that we should not pray that all people will turn to Christ.
    We should pray that, but once they die in unbelief, that is their condition.

    Christ said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me.”

    _______________________________________________________
    “Preview” is great… when it works! Mostly it hasn’t, hence the ‘post scripts’. :)

  • helen

    I didn’t mean to suggest that we should not pray that all people will turn to Christ.
    We should pray that, but once they die in unbelief, that is their condition.

    Christ said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by Me.”

    _______________________________________________________
    “Preview” is great… when it works! Mostly it hasn’t, hence the ‘post scripts’. :)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The question for Pakistan is just how the Hell did they not know that Bin Laden was located in a compound near to their military academy.”

    They did know.

    They were hiding him while getting billions from us to “look” for him. It was a perfect cash cow. They know we are scared of terrorists, so it appears they milked it for all it was worth. When I say that Pakistan gave him up, I just mean that someone let us know Bin Laden was where he was so we could get him. It seems if the higher ups hid him this long in such a nice neighborhood, they could keep hiding him if they really wanted to.

    All of this is more reason not to get involved in these endless invasions with these folks that we know are naturally more loyal to their own than to our notions of civic life.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The question for Pakistan is just how the Hell did they not know that Bin Laden was located in a compound near to their military academy.”

    They did know.

    They were hiding him while getting billions from us to “look” for him. It was a perfect cash cow. They know we are scared of terrorists, so it appears they milked it for all it was worth. When I say that Pakistan gave him up, I just mean that someone let us know Bin Laden was where he was so we could get him. It seems if the higher ups hid him this long in such a nice neighborhood, they could keep hiding him if they really wanted to.

    All of this is more reason not to get involved in these endless invasions with these folks that we know are naturally more loyal to their own than to our notions of civic life.

  • Stephen

    I thought this was a funny and poignant comment by a Brit to a news story on the BBC:

    “Thank god it was the yanks who did him . If it was us we would have brought him back to the U.K alive said sorry for unlawful arrest and gave him a few million pound and a house also immunity from deportation to the U.S.A as no guarantee of his human rights could be given as I said thank god It was the yanks”

  • Stephen

    I thought this was a funny and poignant comment by a Brit to a news story on the BBC:

    “Thank god it was the yanks who did him . If it was us we would have brought him back to the U.K alive said sorry for unlawful arrest and gave him a few million pound and a house also immunity from deportation to the U.S.A as no guarantee of his human rights could be given as I said thank god It was the yanks”

  • Stephen

    sg-

    The sad fact is we have to deal with the Pakistanis. They are not a unified country by any means. Their government is full of corruption at all levels. But they have nukes, their border with India is hot, AND we need them right now to launch attacks in Afghanistan to stabilize that country so it isn’t terrorism factory land. And there are moderates, like the official assassinated by his bodyguard for speaking out against religious extremism. We have to show support for those moderate voices.

    I like to listen for the voices of these sorts of people on NPR and BBC. I heard a Pakistani journalist (name escaped me) yesterday who described the anti-Americans in her country as “right wing” calling her up for comments and questioning her about the Americans “invading” their country. She shot back with why Bin Laden was in her country in the first place – the same question we are asking. There ARE Pakistanis, it would seem, who are disturbed by this and upset with the stuff going on in their government (kinda like here, eh?). So these intelligent, moderate people are making efforts to move that country forward at great risk, and they are up against some deeply entrenched layers of corruption that have existed for a very long time. And in that mix is the religious extremism and tribalism which is more intense that we can imagine. Having been to that part of the world, I can speak to the starkness of things. Life and death does not receive the makeup job it gets here.

    So, I think we do have to be in it for the long haul to turn the Islamic world toward peace, democracy and a free and open society. I don’t doubt money is “wasted” but that’s certainly nothing new, but that’s kind of relative as all of this is ongoing. It may turn out to be an economic lever in the future, maybe even very soon with this turn of events.

  • Stephen

    sg-

    The sad fact is we have to deal with the Pakistanis. They are not a unified country by any means. Their government is full of corruption at all levels. But they have nukes, their border with India is hot, AND we need them right now to launch attacks in Afghanistan to stabilize that country so it isn’t terrorism factory land. And there are moderates, like the official assassinated by his bodyguard for speaking out against religious extremism. We have to show support for those moderate voices.

    I like to listen for the voices of these sorts of people on NPR and BBC. I heard a Pakistani journalist (name escaped me) yesterday who described the anti-Americans in her country as “right wing” calling her up for comments and questioning her about the Americans “invading” their country. She shot back with why Bin Laden was in her country in the first place – the same question we are asking. There ARE Pakistanis, it would seem, who are disturbed by this and upset with the stuff going on in their government (kinda like here, eh?). So these intelligent, moderate people are making efforts to move that country forward at great risk, and they are up against some deeply entrenched layers of corruption that have existed for a very long time. And in that mix is the religious extremism and tribalism which is more intense that we can imagine. Having been to that part of the world, I can speak to the starkness of things. Life and death does not receive the makeup job it gets here.

    So, I think we do have to be in it for the long haul to turn the Islamic world toward peace, democracy and a free and open society. I don’t doubt money is “wasted” but that’s certainly nothing new, but that’s kind of relative as all of this is ongoing. It may turn out to be an economic lever in the future, maybe even very soon with this turn of events.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “So, I think we do have to be in it for the long haul to turn the Islamic world toward peace, democracy and a free and open society.”

    I don’t think they have it in them, at least not at this point in history. We put up with Britain for, “all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.” Pakistan lacks the necessary condition of a populace that is civic minded enough to rule itself. I take no pleasure in saying so, but it appears to be so.

    “I don’t doubt money is “wasted” but that’s certainly nothing new, but that’s kind of relative as all of this is ongoing. It may turn out to be an economic lever in the future, maybe even very soon with this turn of events.”

    That is no small problem. If indeed the islamic terrorists plan was to bankrupt us into collapse, it could actually happen. And there are no shortage of vultures circling. Interesting times. Our cowed posture seems to show we have no friends, only enemies. If we indeed had friends, we would have no fear in attacking Pakistan and utterly destroying them for their treachery. Instead we seek to appease. They can smell weakness.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “So, I think we do have to be in it for the long haul to turn the Islamic world toward peace, democracy and a free and open society.”

    I don’t think they have it in them, at least not at this point in history. We put up with Britain for, “all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.” Pakistan lacks the necessary condition of a populace that is civic minded enough to rule itself. I take no pleasure in saying so, but it appears to be so.

    “I don’t doubt money is “wasted” but that’s certainly nothing new, but that’s kind of relative as all of this is ongoing. It may turn out to be an economic lever in the future, maybe even very soon with this turn of events.”

    That is no small problem. If indeed the islamic terrorists plan was to bankrupt us into collapse, it could actually happen. And there are no shortage of vultures circling. Interesting times. Our cowed posture seems to show we have no friends, only enemies. If we indeed had friends, we would have no fear in attacking Pakistan and utterly destroying them for their treachery. Instead we seek to appease. They can smell weakness.

  • Stephen

    “If we indeed had friends, we would have no fear in attacking Pakistan and utterly destroying them for their treachery. Instead we seek to appease. They can smell weakness.”

    I doubt we would get any help with that, and we really would have WWIII coming from all directions, but it would be against terrorist bombs going off in every supermarket, sporting event, airport school, etc. in America and Europe. Israel x 1000.

    The upside is they are also repressed people and they won’t tolerate it forever. They are already pulling away from it. They actually did it once with Britain in the 40s. But this kind of monumental change won’t happen overnight. The radicals always make the headlines.

    Whatever the case, the goodness and mercy of God will happen, even without our prayers or asking.

  • Stephen

    “If we indeed had friends, we would have no fear in attacking Pakistan and utterly destroying them for their treachery. Instead we seek to appease. They can smell weakness.”

    I doubt we would get any help with that, and we really would have WWIII coming from all directions, but it would be against terrorist bombs going off in every supermarket, sporting event, airport school, etc. in America and Europe. Israel x 1000.

    The upside is they are also repressed people and they won’t tolerate it forever. They are already pulling away from it. They actually did it once with Britain in the 40s. But this kind of monumental change won’t happen overnight. The radicals always make the headlines.

    Whatever the case, the goodness and mercy of God will happen, even without our prayers or asking.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The upside is they are also repressed people and they won’t tolerate it forever. They are already pulling away from it. They actually did it once with Britain in the 40s.”

    I am skeptical. The truly repressed don’t revolt. They have too little hope. Revolutions tend to occur when things are getting better and the people feel empowered.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The upside is they are also repressed people and they won’t tolerate it forever. They are already pulling away from it. They actually did it once with Britain in the 40s.”

    I am skeptical. The truly repressed don’t revolt. They have too little hope. Revolutions tend to occur when things are getting better and the people feel empowered.

  • Carl Vehse

    In his article, “Did ‘dead’ courier betray Osama bin Laden? The White House story doesn’t add up,” Tony Harnden has an interesting hunch:

    There’s a lot about the White House’s account that doesn’t quite add up. I’m not just talking about the changing story that led spokesman Jay Carney to admit: “Even I’m getting confused”. The erroneous details that Osama bin Laden was armed (he wasn’t), that his wife was used as a human shield (she wasn’t), that his wife was killed (she wasn’t) can be put down to over-egging the pudding or, if you’re feeling generous, the fog of war.

    What I’m talking about is the bigger picture of how bin Laden was discovered and who was killed in that compound. Don’t worry, I’m not a “Deather”. It seems incontrovertible that bin Laden is indeed sleeping with the fishes. But what about the others – the Sheikh Abu Ahmed, also known as Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti – his brother, bin Laden’s son Hamza and bin Laden’s wife?

    This is just a hunch but it seems to me that a plausible conclusion to be drawn from the confusing and opaque mass of detail is that Abu Ahmed, his brother or bin Laden’s own son betrayed him and is currently being given a new identity as he prepares to collect the $27 million reward for the al-Qaeda leader’s scalp.

  • Carl Vehse

    In his article, “Did ‘dead’ courier betray Osama bin Laden? The White House story doesn’t add up,” Tony Harnden has an interesting hunch:

    There’s a lot about the White House’s account that doesn’t quite add up. I’m not just talking about the changing story that led spokesman Jay Carney to admit: “Even I’m getting confused”. The erroneous details that Osama bin Laden was armed (he wasn’t), that his wife was used as a human shield (she wasn’t), that his wife was killed (she wasn’t) can be put down to over-egging the pudding or, if you’re feeling generous, the fog of war.

    What I’m talking about is the bigger picture of how bin Laden was discovered and who was killed in that compound. Don’t worry, I’m not a “Deather”. It seems incontrovertible that bin Laden is indeed sleeping with the fishes. But what about the others – the Sheikh Abu Ahmed, also known as Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti – his brother, bin Laden’s son Hamza and bin Laden’s wife?

    This is just a hunch but it seems to me that a plausible conclusion to be drawn from the confusing and opaque mass of detail is that Abu Ahmed, his brother or bin Laden’s own son betrayed him and is currently being given a new identity as he prepares to collect the $27 million reward for the al-Qaeda leader’s scalp.

  • Stephen

    sg -

    “The truly repressed don’t revolt”

    I’m not sure you could say that about the Russian Revolution, and I don’t think that characterizes what happened in India very well either. And sometimes people under pressure just flat out panic too. Prison revolts usually happen when things really go down the tubes, not because things are improving.

    I don’t blame you for being skeptical. I’m curious how we’ll handle that government now. I expect some strong rhetoric, first of all – a little dressing down in front of the world. That goes a long way. But then if we shame them too much it can backfire because shame is SO inflammatory for Muslims. What they need is to hear it from someone of their own on our behalf, someone in power that is respected. It sounds silly, but since all their leaders are jerks and despots, what we need are statements from Cricket and movie stars. Enormously important to people over there – I’m not kidding. A guy in India protested a film by lighting himself on fire because he thought it was too risque. The Pakistanis almost elected a Cricket star. That would score us points in a few ways. We are shown respect on the world stage by Muslims by cultural icons, Pakistans government gets properly dressed down, and the whole thing shifts a little more toward the west.

    Okay, so they probably won’t go for my plan. I’m sure there will be a hew and cry for something. Maybe they’ll cough some people up. Maybe they will show some contrition and actually implement some change. Pretty much all they know how to do is repress. So any dissension will freak them out and they will try to silence it. They will round up bad people and good people too. What they need is to be pressured into changing their social order to allow for more open dialogue. That would marginalize the extremists. But that is soooo unfamiliar. They really have to be taught that.

    Whatever the case, I don’t see how rolling over people old school will work in our global situation. We would regret the backlash immensely. It would be catastrophic I think. I suspected when Afghanistan started it would be a five or six year fight and a 20 or 30 year deal in some fashion or other. It will probably never quite end like Korea or even our presence in Japan, where they benefit from us being there, and we benefit from it as well. My hope is that it can pay off and not drain the treasury.

    And there is always the Chinese to think about. They could end up owing us big time it seems to me. I sometimes wonder how much that plays into the calculations and no one seems to talk about it. It’s happening in their backyard for Pete’s sake!

    Well, just don’t get me started on Iraq.

  • Stephen

    sg -

    “The truly repressed don’t revolt”

    I’m not sure you could say that about the Russian Revolution, and I don’t think that characterizes what happened in India very well either. And sometimes people under pressure just flat out panic too. Prison revolts usually happen when things really go down the tubes, not because things are improving.

    I don’t blame you for being skeptical. I’m curious how we’ll handle that government now. I expect some strong rhetoric, first of all – a little dressing down in front of the world. That goes a long way. But then if we shame them too much it can backfire because shame is SO inflammatory for Muslims. What they need is to hear it from someone of their own on our behalf, someone in power that is respected. It sounds silly, but since all their leaders are jerks and despots, what we need are statements from Cricket and movie stars. Enormously important to people over there – I’m not kidding. A guy in India protested a film by lighting himself on fire because he thought it was too risque. The Pakistanis almost elected a Cricket star. That would score us points in a few ways. We are shown respect on the world stage by Muslims by cultural icons, Pakistans government gets properly dressed down, and the whole thing shifts a little more toward the west.

    Okay, so they probably won’t go for my plan. I’m sure there will be a hew and cry for something. Maybe they’ll cough some people up. Maybe they will show some contrition and actually implement some change. Pretty much all they know how to do is repress. So any dissension will freak them out and they will try to silence it. They will round up bad people and good people too. What they need is to be pressured into changing their social order to allow for more open dialogue. That would marginalize the extremists. But that is soooo unfamiliar. They really have to be taught that.

    Whatever the case, I don’t see how rolling over people old school will work in our global situation. We would regret the backlash immensely. It would be catastrophic I think. I suspected when Afghanistan started it would be a five or six year fight and a 20 or 30 year deal in some fashion or other. It will probably never quite end like Korea or even our presence in Japan, where they benefit from us being there, and we benefit from it as well. My hope is that it can pay off and not drain the treasury.

    And there is always the Chinese to think about. They could end up owing us big time it seems to me. I sometimes wonder how much that plays into the calculations and no one seems to talk about it. It’s happening in their backyard for Pete’s sake!

    Well, just don’t get me started on Iraq.

  • Carl Vehse

    Now the stories by “deathers” are being published while we continue to wait for full color pictures (or better still, YouTube videos) of the kill. Our Pakistani “allies” allegedly are claiming:

    Senior Pakistani security officials said Osama bin Laden’s daughter had confirmed her father was captured alive and shot dead by the US Special Forces during the first few minutes of the operation carried out at the huge compound in Bilal Town, Abbottabad.

  • Carl Vehse

    Now the stories by “deathers” are being published while we continue to wait for full color pictures (or better still, YouTube videos) of the kill. Our Pakistani “allies” allegedly are claiming:

    Senior Pakistani security officials said Osama bin Laden’s daughter had confirmed her father was captured alive and shot dead by the US Special Forces during the first few minutes of the operation carried out at the huge compound in Bilal Town, Abbottabad.

  • Carl Vehse

    Now that questions are being asked by the international community, the Steve Dunham administration is revising even more details of its original story.

    The White House revision now being told to the MSM is that, while bin Laden was been shot in the chest and head, instead of watching the action via helmet-cam videos fed into the White House big screens (as pictured and previously claimed), there was nearly a half-hour video blackout in which they saw nothing.

    Furthermore, Leon Panetta has told reporters that the US Navy SEALs (outed by Blabbermouth Biden), rather than the President, made the final decision to kill bin Laden. Thus, the SEALs did NOT use their communications links and ask, “Okay, Mr. President, we have Osama. What should we do with him?”

    And if the SEALs did something unauthorized like giving Osama a bloody lip by hitting him – before blowing his brains out – they will face a court martial as did three other SEALs who were similarly accused during the capture of another Islamoterrorist (the 3 SEALs were later found not guilty).

    The SEALs did use the pre-planned name of a Native-American Christian as a code-word that Osama bin Laden had been terminated. It’s not known if the code-word was meant to imply that bin Laden’s scalp was removed as evidence that he was dead.

    In the meantime, the Pakistani intelligence agency claimed bin Laden’s large compound had “slipped off our radar” after Pakistan had raided the building in 2003 while hunting for another senior al-Qaeda operative.The agency claims it was unaware that bin Laden was hiding there (they somehow missed the Mayflower moving vans unloading furniture there back in 2005). But the former head of the Pakistani intelligence agency said that it was “inconceivable” that the agency was unaware of the US raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound. The earlier claim it didn’t know anything was because of pressure to deny any knowledge about the raid. And these idiots have nuclear weapons.

  • Carl Vehse

    Now that questions are being asked by the international community, the Steve Dunham administration is revising even more details of its original story.

    The White House revision now being told to the MSM is that, while bin Laden was been shot in the chest and head, instead of watching the action via helmet-cam videos fed into the White House big screens (as pictured and previously claimed), there was nearly a half-hour video blackout in which they saw nothing.

    Furthermore, Leon Panetta has told reporters that the US Navy SEALs (outed by Blabbermouth Biden), rather than the President, made the final decision to kill bin Laden. Thus, the SEALs did NOT use their communications links and ask, “Okay, Mr. President, we have Osama. What should we do with him?”

    And if the SEALs did something unauthorized like giving Osama a bloody lip by hitting him – before blowing his brains out – they will face a court martial as did three other SEALs who were similarly accused during the capture of another Islamoterrorist (the 3 SEALs were later found not guilty).

    The SEALs did use the pre-planned name of a Native-American Christian as a code-word that Osama bin Laden had been terminated. It’s not known if the code-word was meant to imply that bin Laden’s scalp was removed as evidence that he was dead.

    In the meantime, the Pakistani intelligence agency claimed bin Laden’s large compound had “slipped off our radar” after Pakistan had raided the building in 2003 while hunting for another senior al-Qaeda operative.The agency claims it was unaware that bin Laden was hiding there (they somehow missed the Mayflower moving vans unloading furniture there back in 2005). But the former head of the Pakistani intelligence agency said that it was “inconceivable” that the agency was unaware of the US raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound. The earlier claim it didn’t know anything was because of pressure to deny any knowledge about the raid. And these idiots have nuclear weapons.

  • Carl Vehse

    An accumulation of some previously reported versions of the commando raid:

    1. There was a firefight.
    2. There was no firefight.
    3. Bin Laden was “resisting.”
    4. Bin Laden wasn’t armed. (Makes the concept of “resisting” interesting.)
    4.A. And the newest one: the SEALS thought bin Laden was reaching for a weapon.
    5. He used his wife as a shield.
    6. His wife was killed too.
    7. He didn’t use his wife as a shield. She ran at a SEAL who shot her in the leg, but she’s fine.
    8 . Some other woman — the maid? — was used as a shield. By somebody. Downstairs.
    9. That other woman — downstairs — was killed.
    10. Maybe not. She was killed unless she wasn’t — and who was she, anyway?
    11. Bin Laden’s son was killed.
    12. Unless it was some other guy.
    13. Bin Laden’s daughter saw him get killed. She’s undoubtedly traumatized, poor dear.
    14. They were going to capture Bin Laden until the problem with the helicopter, which was:
    14.A. It had mechanical trouble
    14.B. It did a hard landing
    14.C. It crashed
    14.D. It clipped a wall with a tail rotor, effectively a crash
    15. They were never going to try to capture him; it was always a kill mission.
    16. No, it wasn’t.
    17. The chopper blew up.
    18. The SEALs blew it up.
    19. Panetta said yesterday the world needed proof and the photo would be released.
    20. Obama said today in an interview he taped with Steve Kroft for “60 Minutes” to be broadcast Sunday that it won’t be released. It’s too gruesome, would offend Muslim sensibilities (something he worries about a lot)
    21. Kroft — who’s not a total idiot — pointed out that ever since “Black Hawk Down” days, Muslims have been doing precisely that, filming American bodies being dragged through the streets, filming Daniel Pearl’s head being cut off, filming any and everything.
    22. Obama gets pissed at CBS, the tape gets cleaned up, that question disappears. (Inside info.)
    23. We got a “treasure trove” of stuff from hard drives, etc.
    24. There were no phone lines, and no internet access at the “mansion,” they didn’t even have TV — what “treasure trove?”
    25. There is obviously in the pictures of the place a large satellite dish. I guess they used it for making salads.
    26. And now, just today: apparently the idea was to capture him, but only if he was naked. There was a suspicion he might be wearing a suicide bomber type explosive vest, or belt. So if he’s not naked and you can’t see if he has a vest on or not – shoot him.

    [Thnx 2 sayyoung80913]

  • Carl Vehse

    An accumulation of some previously reported versions of the commando raid:

    1. There was a firefight.
    2. There was no firefight.
    3. Bin Laden was “resisting.”
    4. Bin Laden wasn’t armed. (Makes the concept of “resisting” interesting.)
    4.A. And the newest one: the SEALS thought bin Laden was reaching for a weapon.
    5. He used his wife as a shield.
    6. His wife was killed too.
    7. He didn’t use his wife as a shield. She ran at a SEAL who shot her in the leg, but she’s fine.
    8 . Some other woman — the maid? — was used as a shield. By somebody. Downstairs.
    9. That other woman — downstairs — was killed.
    10. Maybe not. She was killed unless she wasn’t — and who was she, anyway?
    11. Bin Laden’s son was killed.
    12. Unless it was some other guy.
    13. Bin Laden’s daughter saw him get killed. She’s undoubtedly traumatized, poor dear.
    14. They were going to capture Bin Laden until the problem with the helicopter, which was:
    14.A. It had mechanical trouble
    14.B. It did a hard landing
    14.C. It crashed
    14.D. It clipped a wall with a tail rotor, effectively a crash
    15. They were never going to try to capture him; it was always a kill mission.
    16. No, it wasn’t.
    17. The chopper blew up.
    18. The SEALs blew it up.
    19. Panetta said yesterday the world needed proof and the photo would be released.
    20. Obama said today in an interview he taped with Steve Kroft for “60 Minutes” to be broadcast Sunday that it won’t be released. It’s too gruesome, would offend Muslim sensibilities (something he worries about a lot)
    21. Kroft — who’s not a total idiot — pointed out that ever since “Black Hawk Down” days, Muslims have been doing precisely that, filming American bodies being dragged through the streets, filming Daniel Pearl’s head being cut off, filming any and everything.
    22. Obama gets pissed at CBS, the tape gets cleaned up, that question disappears. (Inside info.)
    23. We got a “treasure trove” of stuff from hard drives, etc.
    24. There were no phone lines, and no internet access at the “mansion,” they didn’t even have TV — what “treasure trove?”
    25. There is obviously in the pictures of the place a large satellite dish. I guess they used it for making salads.
    26. And now, just today: apparently the idea was to capture him, but only if he was naked. There was a suspicion he might be wearing a suicide bomber type explosive vest, or belt. So if he’s not naked and you can’t see if he has a vest on or not – shoot him.

    [Thnx 2 sayyoung80913]

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I’m really not sure what you’re angling for, Carl (@143), but I have heard another reason for the helicopter problems in my own newspaper (from the AP):

    With officials at the CIA and the White House watching on television monitors, tensions increased when one of the two Black Hawk helicopters lowered into the compound and, beneath a moonless sky, fell heavily to the ground. Officials believe that was due to higher-than-expected air temperature that interfered with the chopper’s ability to hover — an aeronautical condition known as “hot and high.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I’m really not sure what you’re angling for, Carl (@143), but I have heard another reason for the helicopter problems in my own newspaper (from the AP):

    With officials at the CIA and the White House watching on television monitors, tensions increased when one of the two Black Hawk helicopters lowered into the compound and, beneath a moonless sky, fell heavily to the ground. Officials believe that was due to higher-than-expected air temperature that interfered with the chopper’s ability to hover — an aeronautical condition known as “hot and high.”

  • Carl Vehse

    I’ve seen that report, too. But now the NYT is claiming: “When the commandos reached the top floor, they entered a room and saw Osama bin Laden with an AK-47 and a Makarov pistol in arm’s reach.”

    So we are being told that after the helicopter crash and the exchange of gunfire, shooting the person who is now claimed to be the only person with a gun who fired at the commando team, and shooting several other people on the way up to the top floor, with all that racket going on, the team then entered into the room to find bin Laden only “with an AK-47 and a Makarov pistol in arm’s reach”?

    Sound sleeper?!?

    The continually evolving WH versions are starting to diminish their credibility (and they only had an iota to begin with)! One wonders whether it was a SEALs team, or a CIA Wet Ops team or some contractor team (e.g., Blackwater-Xe), who did the work.

  • Carl Vehse

    I’ve seen that report, too. But now the NYT is claiming: “When the commandos reached the top floor, they entered a room and saw Osama bin Laden with an AK-47 and a Makarov pistol in arm’s reach.”

    So we are being told that after the helicopter crash and the exchange of gunfire, shooting the person who is now claimed to be the only person with a gun who fired at the commando team, and shooting several other people on the way up to the top floor, with all that racket going on, the team then entered into the room to find bin Laden only “with an AK-47 and a Makarov pistol in arm’s reach”?

    Sound sleeper?!?

    The continually evolving WH versions are starting to diminish their credibility (and they only had an iota to begin with)! One wonders whether it was a SEALs team, or a CIA Wet Ops team or some contractor team (e.g., Blackwater-Xe), who did the work.

  • Carl Vehse

    Next, I expect the Barry’s press secretary to claim there were a number of people in the WH situation room who saw on the video screen the commando raid and killing of bin Laden.

    Or maybe even more.

  • Carl Vehse

    Next, I expect the Barry’s press secretary to claim there were a number of people in the WH situation room who saw on the video screen the commando raid and killing of bin Laden.

    Or maybe even more.

  • Carl Vehse

    In a change of pace, Alan Dershowitz (who in the past has been referred to as “Dershbag” by conservatives) has put forth some surprisingly sound arguments for why The Photographs Should Be Released:

    In my nearly half century of representing defendants charged with homicide, I have come to know that the best evidence of how a person died comes from the body of the deceased. Dead bodies often talk more loudly, clearly and unambiguously than live witnesses. Bin Laden’s body should have been preserved as long as necessary to gather all relevant evidence, notwithstanding the requirements of Sharia Law. When a Muslim or a Jew is the victim of a homicide in the United States, religious considerations do not trump civil requirements. Their bodies are generally sent to the medical examiner for thorough examination. Notwithstanding religious prohibitions, autopsies are performed and organs removed for testing. No special exception should have been made for Bin Laden’s body.

    The president’s decision to suppress the remaining photographic evidence is disturbing on many levels. First, it is wrong on its merits. The public is used to seeing visual portrayals of dead bodies. They are routinely shown on television and in movies. Anyone who has served as a juror or a courtroom observer in a homicide cases has seen bodies riddled with bullets or afflicted with stab wounds. We are mature enough to endure viewing such visual evidence if we choose to. Nor is there any real risk that these photographs will inflame Muslim or Arab sensibilities, any more than the photographs of Saddam Hussein did.

    On a more fundamental level, I have serious doubts whether the president has the legal or constitutional authority to suppress these photographs. As Commander in Chief, he had the authority to order the kill operation, but in a country governed by the First Amendment, the president may lack the authority to decide what is published and what is suppressed. It would establish a terrible precedent for the Commander in Chief to be given the sole authority to determine what the public has the right to see and know, especially when the sole justification for suppression is a matter of judgment regarding the possible offensiveness of the photographs.

    …The great Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis taught us nearly a century ago that “sunlight is the best disinfectant.” The remaining evidence of how Bin Laden was killed — the photographs and the results of any forensic tests that may have been hastily performed — should be exposed to the sunlight of publication.

  • Carl Vehse

    In a change of pace, Alan Dershowitz (who in the past has been referred to as “Dershbag” by conservatives) has put forth some surprisingly sound arguments for why The Photographs Should Be Released:

    In my nearly half century of representing defendants charged with homicide, I have come to know that the best evidence of how a person died comes from the body of the deceased. Dead bodies often talk more loudly, clearly and unambiguously than live witnesses. Bin Laden’s body should have been preserved as long as necessary to gather all relevant evidence, notwithstanding the requirements of Sharia Law. When a Muslim or a Jew is the victim of a homicide in the United States, religious considerations do not trump civil requirements. Their bodies are generally sent to the medical examiner for thorough examination. Notwithstanding religious prohibitions, autopsies are performed and organs removed for testing. No special exception should have been made for Bin Laden’s body.

    The president’s decision to suppress the remaining photographic evidence is disturbing on many levels. First, it is wrong on its merits. The public is used to seeing visual portrayals of dead bodies. They are routinely shown on television and in movies. Anyone who has served as a juror or a courtroom observer in a homicide cases has seen bodies riddled with bullets or afflicted with stab wounds. We are mature enough to endure viewing such visual evidence if we choose to. Nor is there any real risk that these photographs will inflame Muslim or Arab sensibilities, any more than the photographs of Saddam Hussein did.

    On a more fundamental level, I have serious doubts whether the president has the legal or constitutional authority to suppress these photographs. As Commander in Chief, he had the authority to order the kill operation, but in a country governed by the First Amendment, the president may lack the authority to decide what is published and what is suppressed. It would establish a terrible precedent for the Commander in Chief to be given the sole authority to determine what the public has the right to see and know, especially when the sole justification for suppression is a matter of judgment regarding the possible offensiveness of the photographs.

    …The great Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis taught us nearly a century ago that “sunlight is the best disinfectant.” The remaining evidence of how Bin Laden was killed — the photographs and the results of any forensic tests that may have been hastily performed — should be exposed to the sunlight of publication.


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