Horror in Norway

A 32-year-old Norwegian described as “a Christian fundamentalist with right-wing connections” bombed a government building in Oslo, killing seven, and then went to a Labor Party youth camp and shot to death 84 young people! See Norway Shooting and Bomb Attack Leaves at Least 91 Dead – NYTimes.com.

We’ll learn what they mean by “right-wing fundamentalist.”  At any rate, get ready for yet more discrediting of conservative Christians and conservative politics.  In the meantime, we must feel for Norway, which is going through what Oklahoma City did, as well as the United States as a whole on 9/11.

 

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    I’m just sick about this. It’s the worst possible thing that could have happened culturally, on top of the unspeakable horror of the vile act itself. Still processing it all. What I read in the reports makes no sense to me (not that insanity requires sense). But I’m holding onto hope that reports of Breivik’s “Christianity” are specious.

    Not that that will stop secularists from pointing to this as proof that Christian fundamentalists are just as dangerous as Muslim fundamentalists.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    I’m just sick about this. It’s the worst possible thing that could have happened culturally, on top of the unspeakable horror of the vile act itself. Still processing it all. What I read in the reports makes no sense to me (not that insanity requires sense). But I’m holding onto hope that reports of Breivik’s “Christianity” are specious.

    Not that that will stop secularists from pointing to this as proof that Christian fundamentalists are just as dangerous as Muslim fundamentalists.

  • Steve

    Check out Verum Serum’s piece on the shooter’s supposed religious beliefs:

    http://www.verumserum.com/?p=27607

    It sounds like he’s much more of a cultural Christian in the sense that he seeks a Europe of Christian heritage, and far less of a believer in Christ, or even God for that matter. Interesting read.

  • Steve

    Check out Verum Serum’s piece on the shooter’s supposed religious beliefs:

    http://www.verumserum.com/?p=27607

    It sounds like he’s much more of a cultural Christian in the sense that he seeks a Europe of Christian heritage, and far less of a believer in Christ, or even God for that matter. Interesting read.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Will we learn what “right wing fundamentalist” means here, or is it sufficient for more journalists that he posted on websites, and they’ll never actually ask little questions like “where did he go to church?” and so on. Having had friends who were missionaries in Sweden, I believe that “right wing fundamentalist churches” are few and bar between in the Northland–you will find a certain number of charismatics and pentacostals, but very few who are non-charismatic fundamentalists.

    Lots of interesting, tragic questions to be asked here. My key question is how on earth nobody in the nation’s capital asked about the possibility of a Medevac or military conveyance to the island. After all, it’s a mountainous nation with not really good roads; you ought to have this ready.

    (if they can’t find one for a SWAT team, how many people are dying needlessly of injuries and heart attacks on a daily basis because they’re not being taken to the hospital in a timely manner?)

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Will we learn what “right wing fundamentalist” means here, or is it sufficient for more journalists that he posted on websites, and they’ll never actually ask little questions like “where did he go to church?” and so on. Having had friends who were missionaries in Sweden, I believe that “right wing fundamentalist churches” are few and bar between in the Northland–you will find a certain number of charismatics and pentacostals, but very few who are non-charismatic fundamentalists.

    Lots of interesting, tragic questions to be asked here. My key question is how on earth nobody in the nation’s capital asked about the possibility of a Medevac or military conveyance to the island. After all, it’s a mountainous nation with not really good roads; you ought to have this ready.

    (if they can’t find one for a SWAT team, how many people are dying needlessly of injuries and heart attacks on a daily basis because they’re not being taken to the hospital in a timely manner?)

  • JH

    I just hope they don’t find out he attended a lutheran church and then start the inquest.

  • JH

    I just hope they don’t find out he attended a lutheran church and then start the inquest.

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    If the below link is true, the terrorist is a member of the Knights Templar. In the linked 1500 page manifesto, he admits he is not a Christian.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89a_1311444384

  • http://lutherama.blogspot.com Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    If the below link is true, the terrorist is a member of the Knights Templar. In the linked 1500 page manifesto, he admits he is not a Christian.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89a_1311444384

  • David Rufner

    This post attributes his motives to Darwinism. A far cry from right wing Christianity! http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/a-darwinian-terrorist/

  • David Rufner

    This post attributes his motives to Darwinism. A far cry from right wing Christianity! http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/a-darwinian-terrorist/

  • SKPeterson

    His claims to being a Knight Templar are about of the same reliability as those of Ra-el. The Norwegian press notes that he is more of a hyper-nationalist than a Christian fundamentalist/extremist/terrorist. He appears to be the type that would have risen high in the ranks of the SS or the KGB: intelligent and educated with the potent combination of unhinged amoral commitment to a cause.

  • SKPeterson

    His claims to being a Knight Templar are about of the same reliability as those of Ra-el. The Norwegian press notes that he is more of a hyper-nationalist than a Christian fundamentalist/extremist/terrorist. He appears to be the type that would have risen high in the ranks of the SS or the KGB: intelligent and educated with the potent combination of unhinged amoral commitment to a cause.

  • Pingback: Norway lowers number of deaths in attacks to 76 – World news – Europe – msnbc.com « brainguff

  • Pingback: Norway lowers number of deaths in attacks to 76 – World news – Europe – msnbc.com « brainguff

  • Lou

    Along with David, I’ve also found articles that show him as a professed Darwinist and in fact not a Christian (only in the sense that some of us might say “Cultural Christian”).
    World Net has this one:
    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=325765#ixzz1T8NMqVXl
    I seriously doubt that the mainstream media is going to be lining up any time soon to write articles that correct the initial presuppositions and come out against the consequences of Darwinism the way they did against Christian extremists.

    On the other hand, maybe, just maybe, evangelical denominations that seem to exalt cultural Christianity over Biblical Christianity and extreme theonomic doctrines over the doctrines of grace will wake up and purge themselves from these false teachings. Probably not. But maybe.

  • Lou

    Along with David, I’ve also found articles that show him as a professed Darwinist and in fact not a Christian (only in the sense that some of us might say “Cultural Christian”).
    World Net has this one:
    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=325765#ixzz1T8NMqVXl
    I seriously doubt that the mainstream media is going to be lining up any time soon to write articles that correct the initial presuppositions and come out against the consequences of Darwinism the way they did against Christian extremists.

    On the other hand, maybe, just maybe, evangelical denominations that seem to exalt cultural Christianity over Biblical Christianity and extreme theonomic doctrines over the doctrines of grace will wake up and purge themselves from these false teachings. Probably not. But maybe.

  • steve

    It’s an interesting balance we have to strike here. On the one hand, we must admit that even if he was a believing Christian, he could still be capable of committing such as atrocity. Our religion teaches it and our history is replete with examples of Christian men doing horrible things (if only because Western history is predominately a Christian history and, as such, replete with Christian men doing all sorts of things, good and bad). On the other hand, we feel compelled to make the distinction between what this man believed and did and what Christianity teaches because, if we do not, nobody else is likely to. There will likely be no prominent leaders calling for calm and restraint and opposing the broad-brushing of all right-wingers or conservative Christians based on the actions of a few individuals–as they are wont to do in the aftermath of Islamist attacks.

  • steve

    It’s an interesting balance we have to strike here. On the one hand, we must admit that even if he was a believing Christian, he could still be capable of committing such as atrocity. Our religion teaches it and our history is replete with examples of Christian men doing horrible things (if only because Western history is predominately a Christian history and, as such, replete with Christian men doing all sorts of things, good and bad). On the other hand, we feel compelled to make the distinction between what this man believed and did and what Christianity teaches because, if we do not, nobody else is likely to. There will likely be no prominent leaders calling for calm and restraint and opposing the broad-brushing of all right-wingers or conservative Christians based on the actions of a few individuals–as they are wont to do in the aftermath of Islamist attacks.

  • Jonathan

    It’s interesting that, when dealing with atrocities done by Muslims, we don’t pour over their backgrounds and writings to determine just where their words and actions coincide (or don’t) with authentic Islamic teaching. We, for the most part, conclude, like this guy, apparently, that Islam = terrorists. Now the tables are turned.

  • Jonathan

    It’s interesting that, when dealing with atrocities done by Muslims, we don’t pour over their backgrounds and writings to determine just where their words and actions coincide (or don’t) with authentic Islamic teaching. We, for the most part, conclude, like this guy, apparently, that Islam = terrorists. Now the tables are turned.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    CNN.com has an article which exposes the weak link to “Christian fundamentalism” in this case:

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/understanding-christian-fundamentalist-label-for-norway-terror-suspect/?hpt=hp_t1

    Here’s a quote from the article:

    But experts on European politics and religion say that the Christian fundamentalist label could overstate the extent to which the suspect, Anders Behring Breivik – who has told authorities that he carried out the attacks – was motivated by religion, and the extent to which he is tied to a broader religious movement.

    “It is true that he sees himself as a crusader and some sort of Templar knight,” said Marcus Buck, a political science professor at Norway’s University of Tromso, referring to an online manifesto that Breivik appears to have authored and which draws inspiration from medieval Christian crusaders.

    “But he doesn’t seem to have any insight into Christian theology or any ideas of how the Christian faith should play any role in Norwegian or European society,” Buck wrote in an email message. “His links to Christianity are much more based on being against Islam and what he perceives of as ‘cultural Marxism.’”

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    CNN.com has an article which exposes the weak link to “Christian fundamentalism” in this case:

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/25/understanding-christian-fundamentalist-label-for-norway-terror-suspect/?hpt=hp_t1

    Here’s a quote from the article:

    But experts on European politics and religion say that the Christian fundamentalist label could overstate the extent to which the suspect, Anders Behring Breivik – who has told authorities that he carried out the attacks – was motivated by religion, and the extent to which he is tied to a broader religious movement.

    “It is true that he sees himself as a crusader and some sort of Templar knight,” said Marcus Buck, a political science professor at Norway’s University of Tromso, referring to an online manifesto that Breivik appears to have authored and which draws inspiration from medieval Christian crusaders.

    “But he doesn’t seem to have any insight into Christian theology or any ideas of how the Christian faith should play any role in Norwegian or European society,” Buck wrote in an email message. “His links to Christianity are much more based on being against Islam and what he perceives of as ‘cultural Marxism.’”

  • leopold

    American Vision has a great article on this issue,

    http://americanvision.org/4874/have-we-become-desensitized-to-evil/

    Also, this article shows tells a lot about this man and his ideas,

    http://cofcc.org/2011/07/news-roundup-4/

    “The Norwegian spree killing coincided with anti-Israel rally held at the Norwegian Labor Party summer camp. The suspect is a radical moderate who railed against “Antisemitism,” “anti-gay,” and “racist” sentiments on the right. He stated that all “cultural conservatives” need to be “anti-racist,” “pro-gay,” and “pro-Israel” to be at his “level.””

  • leopold

    American Vision has a great article on this issue,

    http://americanvision.org/4874/have-we-become-desensitized-to-evil/

    Also, this article shows tells a lot about this man and his ideas,

    http://cofcc.org/2011/07/news-roundup-4/

    “The Norwegian spree killing coincided with anti-Israel rally held at the Norwegian Labor Party summer camp. The suspect is a radical moderate who railed against “Antisemitism,” “anti-gay,” and “racist” sentiments on the right. He stated that all “cultural conservatives” need to be “anti-racist,” “pro-gay,” and “pro-Israel” to be at his “level.””

  • DonS

    The man is clearly a violent nut, who does not value created human life. So, his values clearly do not align with fundamentalist Christianity.

    I have also heard rumors that he is linked with freemasonry, which is also very distinct from fundamentalist Christianity.

    There is always a rush to identify a violent, murderous nut with some kind of cogent political or religious ideology, for whatever reason. Unfortunately, that reason is often an opportunistic effort to smear those with whom one is in political or religious disagreement. The problem is that one who is willing to take 90 innocent lives to further his “cause” seldom has a cogent philosophy of any kind. The important thing to ascertain is not his personal views, but whether he was in alignment with any other people having similar views or goals, and are who are still at large. There will be time enough later to have professionals evaluate the man’s mental state and any motives he may have had for the killings.

    In the short term, our best defense, as Christians, is to point to biblical teachings and values supporting the sanctity of human life, and to emphasize how out of step with those teachings and values this man’s actions were.

  • DonS

    The man is clearly a violent nut, who does not value created human life. So, his values clearly do not align with fundamentalist Christianity.

    I have also heard rumors that he is linked with freemasonry, which is also very distinct from fundamentalist Christianity.

    There is always a rush to identify a violent, murderous nut with some kind of cogent political or religious ideology, for whatever reason. Unfortunately, that reason is often an opportunistic effort to smear those with whom one is in political or religious disagreement. The problem is that one who is willing to take 90 innocent lives to further his “cause” seldom has a cogent philosophy of any kind. The important thing to ascertain is not his personal views, but whether he was in alignment with any other people having similar views or goals, and are who are still at large. There will be time enough later to have professionals evaluate the man’s mental state and any motives he may have had for the killings.

    In the short term, our best defense, as Christians, is to point to biblical teachings and values supporting the sanctity of human life, and to emphasize how out of step with those teachings and values this man’s actions were.

  • Joe

    A radical moderate …

  • Joe

    A radical moderate …

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I second Steve (@9) and Jonathan (@10).

    DonS (@13), is it me, or do you only seem to offer up this “he’s just a nut” defense whenever it’s conservatives and/or Christians who’ve done something horrible? When was the last time you exonerated Islam of such activity by Muslims? I can’t recall any such examples from you.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I second Steve (@9) and Jonathan (@10).

    DonS (@13), is it me, or do you only seem to offer up this “he’s just a nut” defense whenever it’s conservatives and/or Christians who’ve done something horrible? When was the last time you exonerated Islam of such activity by Muslims? I can’t recall any such examples from you.

  • DonS

    tODD, I am consistent. What, specifically, in my comment @ 13, do you disagree with?

  • DonS

    tODD, I am consistent. What, specifically, in my comment @ 13, do you disagree with?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The “he’s just a nut” characterization seems plausible if he acted alone. If he was coached and funded and the whole attack planned by others who later step up and claim responsibility or cheer his actions, then he seems more part of a terrorist conspiracy. Similarly, Scott Roeder was probably a lone nut, who plotted alone. There is no evidence of conspiracy. Didn’t the Unabomber also act alone, as well as that guy who flew his plane into the IRS building? Maj. Hasan may also have acted alone.

    The cultural Christian hyper nativist angle seems plausible as well. I have seen darwinian atheists post ‘Merry Christmas’ posts that include a famous and beautifully executed classical painting of the nativity. They are very proud of their European cultural heritage and liberal social democracy which they feel is threatened by non-Europeans who are highly tribal and anti western in their thinking.

    Any deranged murderer is likely to have some point of view that he uses to justify his rampage. What was the motivator for the Arizona shooter? Wasn’t he all over the map? Someone noted that he listed as his favorite books stuff that was just the usual required high school reading list.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The “he’s just a nut” characterization seems plausible if he acted alone. If he was coached and funded and the whole attack planned by others who later step up and claim responsibility or cheer his actions, then he seems more part of a terrorist conspiracy. Similarly, Scott Roeder was probably a lone nut, who plotted alone. There is no evidence of conspiracy. Didn’t the Unabomber also act alone, as well as that guy who flew his plane into the IRS building? Maj. Hasan may also have acted alone.

    The cultural Christian hyper nativist angle seems plausible as well. I have seen darwinian atheists post ‘Merry Christmas’ posts that include a famous and beautifully executed classical painting of the nativity. They are very proud of their European cultural heritage and liberal social democracy which they feel is threatened by non-Europeans who are highly tribal and anti western in their thinking.

    Any deranged murderer is likely to have some point of view that he uses to justify his rampage. What was the motivator for the Arizona shooter? Wasn’t he all over the map? Someone noted that he listed as his favorite books stuff that was just the usual required high school reading list.

  • Steve Billingsley

    I frankly find much of the effort to “defend” Christianity or “right-wing” political philosophy (both of which I fit neatly and unashamedly into) after such a vile act to be at best a waste of time and at worst horribly inappropriate.

    Do people use tragedies as a nice broad brush to tar whatever philosophy, point of view or faith that they don’t like? Sure. But so what?

    All that I can really think of when considering an awful tragedy like this is silence and mourning are for most of us the only really responsible act. The awful and mysterious reality of evil tends to defy our categories and conventions.

    May God comfort the many people who are struggling to cope with profound loss.

  • Steve Billingsley

    I frankly find much of the effort to “defend” Christianity or “right-wing” political philosophy (both of which I fit neatly and unashamedly into) after such a vile act to be at best a waste of time and at worst horribly inappropriate.

    Do people use tragedies as a nice broad brush to tar whatever philosophy, point of view or faith that they don’t like? Sure. But so what?

    All that I can really think of when considering an awful tragedy like this is silence and mourning are for most of us the only really responsible act. The awful and mysterious reality of evil tends to defy our categories and conventions.

    May God comfort the many people who are struggling to cope with profound loss.

  • Grace

    A thought provoking article below, from The Financial Times

    July 24, 2011 7:00 pm
    Killer personifies rise of new far-right
    By Robin Wigglesworth in Oslo and Quentin Peel in Berlin

    “BerlinExperts and Norwegian politicians say Anders Behring Breivik in many respects typifies a new breed of conservative extremists who have risen in prominence in recent years, in Norway and across Europe, supplanting longer-established but often withering groups of mostly white supremacists.
    “He’s representative of a new type of rightwing extremism. Rather than the old neo-Nazis they are pro-Israel and driven by radical anti-Islam,” says a senior Norwegian Conservative politician. “This is a clear trend across Europe, which has been gaining ground and becoming more mainstream in many countries.”

    In addition to Norway’s Progress party – of which Mr Breivik was a member – the anti-immigrant Danish Peoples’ party, the rehabilitated neo-Nazi Sweden Democrats, the True Finns, Geert Wilders’ Party for Freedom in the Netherlands and France’s National Front have become electoral forces in recent years.
    Norway and the Nordic countries have in the past had relatively large neo-Nazi movements. While the Sweden Democrats have been able to enter national politics, most other groups have faded over time.”

    Killer personifies rise of new far-right

  • Grace

    A thought provoking article below, from The Financial Times

    July 24, 2011 7:00 pm
    Killer personifies rise of new far-right
    By Robin Wigglesworth in Oslo and Quentin Peel in Berlin

    “BerlinExperts and Norwegian politicians say Anders Behring Breivik in many respects typifies a new breed of conservative extremists who have risen in prominence in recent years, in Norway and across Europe, supplanting longer-established but often withering groups of mostly white supremacists.
    “He’s representative of a new type of rightwing extremism. Rather than the old neo-Nazis they are pro-Israel and driven by radical anti-Islam,” says a senior Norwegian Conservative politician. “This is a clear trend across Europe, which has been gaining ground and becoming more mainstream in many countries.”

    In addition to Norway’s Progress party – of which Mr Breivik was a member – the anti-immigrant Danish Peoples’ party, the rehabilitated neo-Nazi Sweden Democrats, the True Finns, Geert Wilders’ Party for Freedom in the Netherlands and France’s National Front have become electoral forces in recent years.
    Norway and the Nordic countries have in the past had relatively large neo-Nazi movements. While the Sweden Democrats have been able to enter national politics, most other groups have faded over time.”

    Killer personifies rise of new far-right

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS (@16), if you’re “consistent”, then just answer me: When was the last time you exonerated left-wing ideology of such activity by some of its adherents*?

    Because, to me, there appears to be a lack of consistency between what you said here (@13):

    There is always a rush to identify a violent, murderous nut with some kind of cogent political or religious ideology, for whatever reason. Unfortunately, that reason is often an opportunistic effort to smear those with whom one is in political or religious disagreement.

    And what you said here:

    You are not seriously arguing that left-wing anti-government types in our country don’t kill people, are you? How about the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, right off the top of my head. Not to mention the many radical, violent anti-war groups of the ’60′s and ’70′s. Earth First environmental activists also engaged in a lot of violence over the years. Not to mention Jared Loughner, the shooter of Congresswoman Giffords, who appears to have had leftist sympathies.

    Of course, your identifying such “violent, murderous nuts with some kind of cogent political or religious ideology, for whatever reason” wasn’t exactly “rushed” into, in most of those cases, since they’re old. Nor was it at all accurate, as I have repeatedly shown you when it comes to Kaczynski’s manifesto.

    So I don’t see consistency on your part such that you leap to the defense of the political left when their ideology is implicated — wrongly, you would now seem to claim. No, the main consistency I see is that you brandish this “he’s a nut” defense every time someone arguably right-wing does something horrible. Therein lies the inconsistency, to me.

    *I actually found one example of your defending Muslims in light of the Ft. Hood shooting, but I’ve never seen you similarly decry the smearing of liberalism in light of a violent act.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS (@16), if you’re “consistent”, then just answer me: When was the last time you exonerated left-wing ideology of such activity by some of its adherents*?

    Because, to me, there appears to be a lack of consistency between what you said here (@13):

    There is always a rush to identify a violent, murderous nut with some kind of cogent political or religious ideology, for whatever reason. Unfortunately, that reason is often an opportunistic effort to smear those with whom one is in political or religious disagreement.

    And what you said here:

    You are not seriously arguing that left-wing anti-government types in our country don’t kill people, are you? How about the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, right off the top of my head. Not to mention the many radical, violent anti-war groups of the ’60′s and ’70′s. Earth First environmental activists also engaged in a lot of violence over the years. Not to mention Jared Loughner, the shooter of Congresswoman Giffords, who appears to have had leftist sympathies.

    Of course, your identifying such “violent, murderous nuts with some kind of cogent political or religious ideology, for whatever reason” wasn’t exactly “rushed” into, in most of those cases, since they’re old. Nor was it at all accurate, as I have repeatedly shown you when it comes to Kaczynski’s manifesto.

    So I don’t see consistency on your part such that you leap to the defense of the political left when their ideology is implicated — wrongly, you would now seem to claim. No, the main consistency I see is that you brandish this “he’s a nut” defense every time someone arguably right-wing does something horrible. Therein lies the inconsistency, to me.

    *I actually found one example of your defending Muslims in light of the Ft. Hood shooting, but I’ve never seen you similarly decry the smearing of liberalism in light of a violent act.

  • steve

    Grace, #19:

    It appears your link is to a paid article but I have to say I see nothing particularly though-provoking about the segment you posted. Especially since they lump in the populist but, nevertheless, center-left True Finns in as part of the New Far Right.

  • steve

    Grace, #19:

    It appears your link is to a paid article but I have to say I see nothing particularly though-provoking about the segment you posted. Especially since they lump in the populist but, nevertheless, center-left True Finns in as part of the New Far Right.

  • Grace

    Steve,

    This might help, it’s on this site too, but without the title news service and author.

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/121827-killer-personifies-rise-new-far-right.html

  • Grace

    Steve,

    This might help, it’s on this site too, but without the title news service and author.

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/121827-killer-personifies-rise-new-far-right.html

  • Steve Billingsley

    A modest proposal.

    For 72 hours after any tragic event of this type (mass shooting, horrible violence), no one is allowed to weigh in on the motivation, religious or political implications or psychological profile of the accused. The facts can be reported, but no speculation allowed.

    (I know, I know, freedom of the press…but one can hope, right?)

  • Steve Billingsley

    A modest proposal.

    For 72 hours after any tragic event of this type (mass shooting, horrible violence), no one is allowed to weigh in on the motivation, religious or political implications or psychological profile of the accused. The facts can be reported, but no speculation allowed.

    (I know, I know, freedom of the press…but one can hope, right?)

  • DonS

    tODD @ 20: Well, it’s interesting that you chose to quote a portion of that prior comment of mine, which was specifically directed to countering your argument that it is primarily right-wing people in the U.S. who foment violence, but failed to also quote the very next paragraph in that very same comment:

    Of course, as you know, I consider this kind of political scapegoating to be silly, anyway. Those fringe lunatics claiming to be on either end of the political spectrum who engage in violent tactics typically cannot espouse a cogent political philosophy. They have too many other psychological problems.

    A little context, and the fair quotations of the prior comments of another, goes a long way to a fair and balanced discussion.

    And yes, as you noted, my comments concerning Major Hasan were completely in keeping with my comments on this thread and elsewhere. Namely, my view is that it is appropriate, and in fact, incombent on authorities, to determine whether the shooter acted alone or in concert with others, and to determine whether there is a further imminent threat to other innocent victims, but it is inappropriate to use the occasion to jump onto a bandwagon of attacking others who may superficially and initially to be of the same race, faith, or political ideology as the shooter, making broad-based insinuations against those others.

    You say: “I’ve never seen you similarly decry the smearing of liberalism in light of a violent act..” In view of this accusation, please kindly point me to where I have had the opportunity to do so, and have declined. I might note, as well, that though I’ve seen many instances where you have decried perceived inconsistencies of conservatives such as myself, I have never seen you decry the perceived inconsistencies of any of the liberal commenters on this blog. Am I misremembering, or can you point me to such an instance?

  • DonS

    tODD @ 20: Well, it’s interesting that you chose to quote a portion of that prior comment of mine, which was specifically directed to countering your argument that it is primarily right-wing people in the U.S. who foment violence, but failed to also quote the very next paragraph in that very same comment:

    Of course, as you know, I consider this kind of political scapegoating to be silly, anyway. Those fringe lunatics claiming to be on either end of the political spectrum who engage in violent tactics typically cannot espouse a cogent political philosophy. They have too many other psychological problems.

    A little context, and the fair quotations of the prior comments of another, goes a long way to a fair and balanced discussion.

    And yes, as you noted, my comments concerning Major Hasan were completely in keeping with my comments on this thread and elsewhere. Namely, my view is that it is appropriate, and in fact, incombent on authorities, to determine whether the shooter acted alone or in concert with others, and to determine whether there is a further imminent threat to other innocent victims, but it is inappropriate to use the occasion to jump onto a bandwagon of attacking others who may superficially and initially to be of the same race, faith, or political ideology as the shooter, making broad-based insinuations against those others.

    You say: “I’ve never seen you similarly decry the smearing of liberalism in light of a violent act..” In view of this accusation, please kindly point me to where I have had the opportunity to do so, and have declined. I might note, as well, that though I’ve seen many instances where you have decried perceived inconsistencies of conservatives such as myself, I have never seen you decry the perceived inconsistencies of any of the liberal commenters on this blog. Am I misremembering, or can you point me to such an instance?

  • Joe

    I really did not want to spend a lot of time psychoanalyzing this guy but I did find these nuggets from his writings interesting:

    “It is not required that you have a personal relationship with God or Jesus in order to fight for our Christian cultural heritage and the European way. In many ways, our modern societies and European secularism is a result of European Christendom and the enlightenment. It is therefore essential to understand the difference between a ‘Christian fundamentalist theocracy’ (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want)”

    and

    “It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy (Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter). The PCCTS, Knights Templar is therefore not a religious organization but rather a Christian ‘culturalist’ military order.”

    http://networkedblogs.com/kQf6Q

  • Joe

    I really did not want to spend a lot of time psychoanalyzing this guy but I did find these nuggets from his writings interesting:

    “It is not required that you have a personal relationship with God or Jesus in order to fight for our Christian cultural heritage and the European way. In many ways, our modern societies and European secularism is a result of European Christendom and the enlightenment. It is therefore essential to understand the difference between a ‘Christian fundamentalist theocracy’ (everything we do not want) and a secular European society based on our Christian cultural heritage (what we do want)”

    and

    “It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy (Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter). The PCCTS, Knights Templar is therefore not a religious organization but rather a Christian ‘culturalist’ military order.”

    http://networkedblogs.com/kQf6Q

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@23), and what will this enforced 72-hour period accomplish, exactly?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve (@23), and what will this enforced 72-hour period accomplish, exactly?

  • Grace

    Posten – a very good news source in Norway.

    Posten

  • Grace

    Posten – a very good news source in Norway.

    Posten

  • Lou

    The American Vision article posted by Leopold only denies that I shall see my hope fulfilled any time soon – that “cultural Christians” would wake up to their false teachings.
    Theonomist Gary DeMar asks: “How could anyone justify killing nearly 100 teenagers ” — meanwhile calling for the implemenation of the Mosaic law whereby rebellious teens may be stoned. Talk about a terrible irony.

  • Lou

    The American Vision article posted by Leopold only denies that I shall see my hope fulfilled any time soon – that “cultural Christians” would wake up to their false teachings.
    Theonomist Gary DeMar asks: “How could anyone justify killing nearly 100 teenagers ” — meanwhile calling for the implemenation of the Mosaic law whereby rebellious teens may be stoned. Talk about a terrible irony.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Cultural Christians remind me of an Bible study of the prodigal son who wants what his father has and loves his father’s stuff but doesn’t love the father. They love the culture that comes from the Christian West but not the religion itself.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Cultural Christians remind me of an Bible study of the prodigal son who wants what his father has and loves his father’s stuff but doesn’t love the father. They love the culture that comes from the Christian West but not the religion itself.

  • George

    “thou shalt not kill”

    Hmm…. not christian then.

  • George

    “thou shalt not kill”

    Hmm…. not christian then.

  • Grace

    My father was pastor of a Scandinavian denominational church – my ties in many ways, are with this church, although I have been associated with others, such as non-denominational churches.

    The catastrophe within Norway, has touched deep within my heart and soul. I see myself in many upon who’s faces I see, my heart is heavy.

    Crown Princess Mette-Marit’s half brother dead,…. protecting his young 10 year old son makes me weep, … he watched his father die. If his father had not been there, how many others would have died? the gun shot noise had to have aroused the suspicion of anyone within ear shot. I’m not an expert by any means, but I do believe this man is exemplary as a father, man and and protector of those in his country.

    We must as Believers pray for this young boy and all the other grieving families who could never have imagined the pain they would be suffering tonight, or in the morning their time.

    The DAILY MAIL –

    Crown Princess of Norway sobs for her hero stepbrother who died shielding 10-year-old son

    Tuesday, Jul 26 2011

    Security man Trond Berntsen, step-brother of Norway’s Princess Mette-Marit, was one of the first victims of Right-wing terrorist Anders Breivik’s murder spree.


    Crown Princess of Norway sobs for her hero stepbrother who died shielding 10-year-old son

  • Grace

    My father was pastor of a Scandinavian denominational church – my ties in many ways, are with this church, although I have been associated with others, such as non-denominational churches.

    The catastrophe within Norway, has touched deep within my heart and soul. I see myself in many upon who’s faces I see, my heart is heavy.

    Crown Princess Mette-Marit’s half brother dead,…. protecting his young 10 year old son makes me weep, … he watched his father die. If his father had not been there, how many others would have died? the gun shot noise had to have aroused the suspicion of anyone within ear shot. I’m not an expert by any means, but I do believe this man is exemplary as a father, man and and protector of those in his country.

    We must as Believers pray for this young boy and all the other grieving families who could never have imagined the pain they would be suffering tonight, or in the morning their time.

    The DAILY MAIL –

    Crown Princess of Norway sobs for her hero stepbrother who died shielding 10-year-old son

    Tuesday, Jul 26 2011

    Security man Trond Berntsen, step-brother of Norway’s Princess Mette-Marit, was one of the first victims of Right-wing terrorist Anders Breivik’s murder spree.


    Crown Princess of Norway sobs for her hero stepbrother who died shielding 10-year-old son

  • Steve Billingsley

    Todd @26
    It accomplishes nothing really. Except maybe to provide an opportunity for some to think about what they write and speculate about before contributing their idiocy to the mix.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Todd @26
    It accomplishes nothing really. Except maybe to provide an opportunity for some to think about what they write and speculate about before contributing their idiocy to the mix.

  • Joe

    George @ 30 – please tell me you are not serious?

  • Joe

    George @ 30 – please tell me you are not serious?

  • leopold

    One can be a Christian and commit a terrible crime of murder, like David, for example, but Christianity is not to be blamed for his crime, because Christianity did not teach him nor made him do the crime; he did it in spite of the teaching of Christianity. What we have here in this case is that the Christ-haters use the fact that the killer was a professed Christian and a professed Conservative to attack Christianity and Conservativism. Well, he was a Norwegian, male and hated rock music, did Norway made his do it, or his maleness, or was it his dislike of rock music?

  • leopold

    One can be a Christian and commit a terrible crime of murder, like David, for example, but Christianity is not to be blamed for his crime, because Christianity did not teach him nor made him do the crime; he did it in spite of the teaching of Christianity. What we have here in this case is that the Christ-haters use the fact that the killer was a professed Christian and a professed Conservative to attack Christianity and Conservativism. Well, he was a Norwegian, male and hated rock music, did Norway made his do it, or his maleness, or was it his dislike of rock music?

  • Joe

    leopold – nice point in the abstract, but the man was not a professed Christian.

  • Joe

    leopold – nice point in the abstract, but the man was not a professed Christian.


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