Human experimentation

Around the time Nazi doctor Josef Mengele was conducting his brutal medical experiments on human beings, some American scientists were doing pretty much the same thing:

U.S. government researchers who purposely infected unwitting subjects with sexually transmitted diseases in Guatemala in the 1940s had obtained consent a few years earlier before conducting similar experiments in Indiana, investigators reported Monday. . . .

At least 5,500 prisoners, mental patients, soldiers and children were drafted into the experiments, including at least 1,300 who were exposed to the sexually transmitted diseases syphilis, gonorrhea and chancroid, the commission reported. At least 83 subjects died, although the commission could not determine how many of the deaths were directly caused by the experiments, they said. . . .

In one case described during Monday’s two-hour hearing, a woman who was infected with syphilis was clearly dying from the disease. Instead of treating her, the researchers poured gonorrhea-infected pus into her eyes and other orifices and infected her again with syphilis. She died six months later.

The ultimate goal of the Guatemalan research was to determine whether taking penicillin after sex would protect against syphilis, gonorrhea and chancroid. The question was a medical priority at the time, especially in the military. The Guatemalan experiments, carried out between 1946 and 1948, aimed to find a reliable way of infecting subjects for future studies.

The research included infecting prisoners by bringing them prostitutes who were either already carrying the diseases or were purposely infected by the researchers. Doctors also poured bacteria onto wounds they had opened with needles on prisoners’ penises, faces and arms. In some cases, infectious material was injected into their spines, the commission reported.

The researchers conducted similar experiments on soldiers in an army barracks and on men and women in the National Mental Health Hospital. The researchers took blood samples from children at the National Orphanage, although they did not purposely infect them.

In the studies conducted in Indiana, researchers exposed 241 inmates in Terre Haute to gonorrhea in 1943 and 1944. But there, the researchers explained the experiments in advance in detail and experimented only on the prisoners who volunteered. In contrast, many of the same researchers who began experimenting on Guatemalans a few years later actively hid what they were doing and never tried to obtain permission, the commission found. . . .

Susan M. Reverby, a historian at Wellesley College in Massachusetts, discovered the Guatemalan experiments while doing research for a book on the infamous Tuskegee studies in Alabama. Reverby found papers from John C. Cutler, a doctor with the federal government’s Public Health Service. Cutler had participated in the Tuskegee experiment, in which hundreds of African American men with late-stage syphilis were left untreated to study the disease between 1932 and 1972. Cutler died in 2003.

via U.S. scientists knew 1940s Guatemalan STD studies were unethical, panel finds – The Washington Post.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Tom Hering

    Hiding immoral experiments didn’t help the image of science in the first half of the 20th century. There was vivisection and the Eugenics movement (an American movement that inspired the Nazis), and H.G. Wells’ promotion of a benevolent dictatorship of hard-hearted, tough-minded scientists. (Even Moreau was written as a sympathetic character, which is why Wells hated the movie version of his novel, Island of Lost Souls.) The mad scientist, bent on world domination and the dehumanization of man, was an archetype in popular entertainments. C.S. Lewis, on the other hand, dealt seriously with the ugly side of science in his Space Trilogy. And there was probably more to Fundamentalist distrust of science than just an objection to the teaching of evolution.

    Somehow, after WWII, the image of science was completely reformed. Scientists now had nothing but good intentions, and science could do nothing but good. Which is all the more astounding considering Hiroshima (“I am become death, the destroyer of worlds”) and the revelations concerning Mengele and the concentration camps. Even the sweeping cultural revolution of the 1960s didn’t raise any real questions about science and scientists (unless they labored for corporations or the military). The boomer kids had been successfully indoctrinated by the scientific optimism of media and the public schools.

  • Tom Hering

    Hiding immoral experiments didn’t help the image of science in the first half of the 20th century. There was vivisection and the Eugenics movement (an American movement that inspired the Nazis), and H.G. Wells’ promotion of a benevolent dictatorship of hard-hearted, tough-minded scientists. (Even Moreau was written as a sympathetic character, which is why Wells hated the movie version of his novel, Island of Lost Souls.) The mad scientist, bent on world domination and the dehumanization of man, was an archetype in popular entertainments. C.S. Lewis, on the other hand, dealt seriously with the ugly side of science in his Space Trilogy. And there was probably more to Fundamentalist distrust of science than just an objection to the teaching of evolution.

    Somehow, after WWII, the image of science was completely reformed. Scientists now had nothing but good intentions, and science could do nothing but good. Which is all the more astounding considering Hiroshima (“I am become death, the destroyer of worlds”) and the revelations concerning Mengele and the concentration camps. Even the sweeping cultural revolution of the 1960s didn’t raise any real questions about science and scientists (unless they labored for corporations or the military). The boomer kids had been successfully indoctrinated by the scientific optimism of media and the public schools.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    Shameful.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    Shameful.

  • Steve Billingsley

    echo both Tom and Lars…shameful and illustrative of the dark side of science that many don’t like to talk about. Science is neither good nor bad in and of itself, but is subject to the intentions and ethics of those who practice it.

  • Steve Billingsley

    echo both Tom and Lars…shameful and illustrative of the dark side of science that many don’t like to talk about. Science is neither good nor bad in and of itself, but is subject to the intentions and ethics of those who practice it.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Reading a pro-evolutionary book right now called “The Logic of Chance” read a note on an early proponent of Evolution (I believe it was Wright) who evidently was involved in Eugenics about that time, the author, Dr. Koonin says we should withhold judging men with great minds by today’s standards.
    I’m flabbergasted by such a statement, and it makes my stomach turn. Really, because the guy is supposedly my intellectual superior I’m supposed to withhold moral judgment from the guys actions? It bothers me that that kind of logic is at play in the scientific community, by a man trying to write a popular work. It seriously hampers my ability to be charitable to the guy in the review I’m obligated to write.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Reading a pro-evolutionary book right now called “The Logic of Chance” read a note on an early proponent of Evolution (I believe it was Wright) who evidently was involved in Eugenics about that time, the author, Dr. Koonin says we should withhold judging men with great minds by today’s standards.
    I’m flabbergasted by such a statement, and it makes my stomach turn. Really, because the guy is supposedly my intellectual superior I’m supposed to withhold moral judgment from the guys actions? It bothers me that that kind of logic is at play in the scientific community, by a man trying to write a popular work. It seriously hampers my ability to be charitable to the guy in the review I’m obligated to write.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Stories like these are what make conspiracy theories credible. There were tons of folks involved in these things and in concealing them. Now, of course, that doesn’t mean every conspiracy theory is true. However, these programs were in fact conspiracies. So, yeah, human beings conspire and conceal.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Stories like these are what make conspiracy theories credible. There were tons of folks involved in these things and in concealing them. Now, of course, that doesn’t mean every conspiracy theory is true. However, these programs were in fact conspiracies. So, yeah, human beings conspire and conceal.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 4 are you sure the not judging by today’s standards is really just asking that folks not be trapped by the historical fallacy?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fallacy

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 4 are you sure the not judging by today’s standards is really just asking that folks not be trapped by the historical fallacy?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fallacy

  • Marie

    While I know we all know about Margaret Sanger’s eugenic fantasies, I learned only recently of the brief testing The Pill developers performed on Puerto Rican and Haitian women.

    http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/07/21/pharmaceutical-holiday/

    The 1900-1950s eras were interesting, because the scientific and political moral lines weren’t as distinct as we like to imagine, in hindsight, and post-WWII.

  • Marie

    While I know we all know about Margaret Sanger’s eugenic fantasies, I learned only recently of the brief testing The Pill developers performed on Puerto Rican and Haitian women.

    http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/07/21/pharmaceutical-holiday/

    The 1900-1950s eras were interesting, because the scientific and political moral lines weren’t as distinct as we like to imagine, in hindsight, and post-WWII.

  • WebMonk

    Bror @4, to a certain extent Dr. Koonin is right, and is describing what each and every one of us does all the time. Washington, the Adamses, Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Lincoln, Wilberforce, etc were all mind-bogglingly racist by today’s standards and yet they are typically held in very high opinion. (want to start baiting Grace and mention Luther and Jews? :-D )

    I haven’t read how Dr. Koonin is saying whatever it is he’s saying, but just from what you’ve passed on, it seems possible that he is describing what each and every one of us do all the time.

  • WebMonk

    Bror @4, to a certain extent Dr. Koonin is right, and is describing what each and every one of us does all the time. Washington, the Adamses, Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Lincoln, Wilberforce, etc were all mind-bogglingly racist by today’s standards and yet they are typically held in very high opinion. (want to start baiting Grace and mention Luther and Jews? :-D )

    I haven’t read how Dr. Koonin is saying whatever it is he’s saying, but just from what you’ve passed on, it seems possible that he is describing what each and every one of us do all the time.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Webmonk, and I guess SG,
    It wasn’t Wright, it is Ronald Fischer, who is in question. That settled the end note, talks about his contribution to the questions of evolution, and then says the man “dedicated his life to eugenics” going on to explain that eugenics is not considered scientific today and “borderline” criminal. He then says we should be careful not to judge great minds, even of the relatively recent past, based on today’s standards.
    Now, I don’t know what to make of that. If he was to say we can still learn something from the man, while acknowledging that he was human, and did some immoral things, I’d be inclinded to go along with him. But I don’t give him a pass just because he had a great mind.
    And no, I don’t do the same with Luther. I don’t give Luther a pass at all on his racism. Nor do I do this with Jefferson or Washington. Where they were sinful, I acknowledge that. I don’t brush it aside and say I should stay judgment because they were intellectually superior. At the sametime I recognize that they have done many great things and society would be worse off if it wasn’t for those things, however, fathering children with slave women is not something I praise them for.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Webmonk, and I guess SG,
    It wasn’t Wright, it is Ronald Fischer, who is in question. That settled the end note, talks about his contribution to the questions of evolution, and then says the man “dedicated his life to eugenics” going on to explain that eugenics is not considered scientific today and “borderline” criminal. He then says we should be careful not to judge great minds, even of the relatively recent past, based on today’s standards.
    Now, I don’t know what to make of that. If he was to say we can still learn something from the man, while acknowledging that he was human, and did some immoral things, I’d be inclinded to go along with him. But I don’t give him a pass just because he had a great mind.
    And no, I don’t do the same with Luther. I don’t give Luther a pass at all on his racism. Nor do I do this with Jefferson or Washington. Where they were sinful, I acknowledge that. I don’t brush it aside and say I should stay judgment because they were intellectually superior. At the sametime I recognize that they have done many great things and society would be worse off if it wasn’t for those things, however, fathering children with slave women is not something I praise them for.

  • Grace

    This isn’t new news –

    I find it reprehensible to compare what transpired regarding experments in Nazi Germany to inmates within the prison system.

    One must REMEBER and COSIDER what was done to young boys as experments in the Nazi ‘camps in Germany’ and elsewhere during WW2. Many boys gentitals were removed, it was horrific. I don’t condon what happened in the U.S in regards to experiments, but to line it up, in any way as a parallel to castrating and removing young Jewish boys genitilia is not a comparison.

    There is an ariticle below that was published over five years ago.

    EXCERPTS from article- New York Times -

    Panel Suggests Using Inmates in Drug Trials

    By IAN URBINA
    Published: August 13, 2006

    “In addition to addressing the abuses at Holmesburg, the regulations were a reaction to revelations in 1972 surrounding what the government called the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male, which was begun in the 1930’s and lasted 40 years. In it, several hundred mostly illiterate men with syphilis in rural Alabama were left untreated, even after a cure was discovered, so that researchers could study the disease.”

    “What happened at Holmesburg was just as gruesome as Tuskegee, but at Holmesburg it happened smack dab in the middle of a major city, not in some backwoods in Alabama,” said Allen M. Hornblum, an urban studies professor at Temple University and the author of “Acres of Skin,” a 1998 book about the Holmesburg research. “It just goes to show how prisons are truly distinct institutions where the walls don’t just serve to keep inmates in, they also serve to keep public eyes out.”

    another excrpt ____________

    “From 1951 to 1974, several federal agencies and more than 30 companies used Holmesburg for experiments, mostly under the auspices of the University of Pennsylvania, which had built laboratories at the prison. After the revelations about Holmesburg, it soon became clear that other universities and prisons in other states were involved in similar abuses.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/us/13inmates.html

  • Grace

    This isn’t new news –

    I find it reprehensible to compare what transpired regarding experments in Nazi Germany to inmates within the prison system.

    One must REMEBER and COSIDER what was done to young boys as experments in the Nazi ‘camps in Germany’ and elsewhere during WW2. Many boys gentitals were removed, it was horrific. I don’t condon what happened in the U.S in regards to experiments, but to line it up, in any way as a parallel to castrating and removing young Jewish boys genitilia is not a comparison.

    There is an ariticle below that was published over five years ago.

    EXCERPTS from article- New York Times -

    Panel Suggests Using Inmates in Drug Trials

    By IAN URBINA
    Published: August 13, 2006

    “In addition to addressing the abuses at Holmesburg, the regulations were a reaction to revelations in 1972 surrounding what the government called the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male, which was begun in the 1930’s and lasted 40 years. In it, several hundred mostly illiterate men with syphilis in rural Alabama were left untreated, even after a cure was discovered, so that researchers could study the disease.”

    “What happened at Holmesburg was just as gruesome as Tuskegee, but at Holmesburg it happened smack dab in the middle of a major city, not in some backwoods in Alabama,” said Allen M. Hornblum, an urban studies professor at Temple University and the author of “Acres of Skin,” a 1998 book about the Holmesburg research. “It just goes to show how prisons are truly distinct institutions where the walls don’t just serve to keep inmates in, they also serve to keep public eyes out.”

    another excrpt ____________

    “From 1951 to 1974, several federal agencies and more than 30 companies used Holmesburg for experiments, mostly under the auspices of the University of Pennsylvania, which had built laboratories at the prison. After the revelations about Holmesburg, it soon became clear that other universities and prisons in other states were involved in similar abuses.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/13/us/13inmates.html

  • Grace

    Post @10 should have read:

    This isn’t new news – I find it reprehensible to compare what transpired in the experiments with Nazi Germany to inmates within the prison system. One must REMEMBER and CONSIDER what was done to young boys as experiments in the Nazi ‘camps in Germany’ and elsewhere during WW2. Many boys genitals were removed, it was horrific. I don’t condon what happened in the U.S. in regards to experiments, but to line it up, in any way as a parallel to castrating and removing young Jewish boys gentiles is not a comparison.

    There is an article below that was published over five years ago.

    —- I apologize for all the misspelled words.

  • Grace

    Post @10 should have read:

    This isn’t new news – I find it reprehensible to compare what transpired in the experiments with Nazi Germany to inmates within the prison system. One must REMEMBER and CONSIDER what was done to young boys as experiments in the Nazi ‘camps in Germany’ and elsewhere during WW2. Many boys genitals were removed, it was horrific. I don’t condon what happened in the U.S. in regards to experiments, but to line it up, in any way as a parallel to castrating and removing young Jewish boys gentiles is not a comparison.

    There is an article below that was published over five years ago.

    —- I apologize for all the misspelled words.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@10) said:

    I find it reprehensible to compare what transpired regarding experments in Nazi Germany to inmates within the prison system. … to line it up, in any way as a parallel to castrating and removing young Jewish boys genitilia is not a comparison.

    Well, yes, you do have a tendency to come on here and express your outrage at this or that comparison[1]. Though, unfortunately, you have an equal tendency to not express your thinking behind this emotion.

    Is there any reason these two events can’t be compared, according to you? Or are you here to enforce your rules of rhetorical decorum without explaining them?

    [1]Just a sampling of the many examples:
    geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117250
    geneveith.com/2011/03/23/nominal-christians/#comment-111409
    geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99374
    geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99484
    geneveith.com/2010/11/15/the-ideological-crisis-of-liberalism/#comment-98151
    geneveith.com/2010/09/28/the-rich-man-lazarus/#comment-94156
    geneveith.com/2010/09/02/a-mormon-on-the-glenn-beck-rally/#comment-90383
    geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89530
    geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89798

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@10) said:

    I find it reprehensible to compare what transpired regarding experments in Nazi Germany to inmates within the prison system. … to line it up, in any way as a parallel to castrating and removing young Jewish boys genitilia is not a comparison.

    Well, yes, you do have a tendency to come on here and express your outrage at this or that comparison[1]. Though, unfortunately, you have an equal tendency to not express your thinking behind this emotion.

    Is there any reason these two events can’t be compared, according to you? Or are you here to enforce your rules of rhetorical decorum without explaining them?

    [1]Just a sampling of the many examples:
    geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117250
    geneveith.com/2011/03/23/nominal-christians/#comment-111409
    geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99374
    geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99484
    geneveith.com/2010/11/15/the-ideological-crisis-of-liberalism/#comment-98151
    geneveith.com/2010/09/28/the-rich-man-lazarus/#comment-94156
    geneveith.com/2010/09/02/a-mormon-on-the-glenn-beck-rally/#comment-90383
    geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89530
    geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89798

  • Tom Hering

    Historians do say we should understand great men in the context of their times, but they don’t say we should withhold moral judgment because they were great, or because they were of another time. Dr. Koonin* may be revealing that he’s more scientist than historian, as scientists have always felt uncomfortable about the intersection of research and morality – preferring not to think about it too much, or to excuse questionable research with arguments that are pragmatic (“it results in some things we all want”) or idealistic (“freedom and progress are at stake”). Or so it seems to me.

    * Eugene V. Koonin is a Senior Investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information (National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health), as well as the Editor-in-Chief of the journal Biology Direct. Dr. Koonin’s group performs research in many areas of evolutionary genomics, with a special emphasis on whole-genome approaches to the study of major transitions in life’s evolution, such as the origin of eukaryotes, the evolution of eukaryotic gene structure, the origin and evolution of different classes of viruses, and evolutionary systems biology.

  • Tom Hering

    Historians do say we should understand great men in the context of their times, but they don’t say we should withhold moral judgment because they were great, or because they were of another time. Dr. Koonin* may be revealing that he’s more scientist than historian, as scientists have always felt uncomfortable about the intersection of research and morality – preferring not to think about it too much, or to excuse questionable research with arguments that are pragmatic (“it results in some things we all want”) or idealistic (“freedom and progress are at stake”). Or so it seems to me.

    * Eugene V. Koonin is a Senior Investigator at the National Center for Biotechnology Information (National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health), as well as the Editor-in-Chief of the journal Biology Direct. Dr. Koonin’s group performs research in many areas of evolutionary genomics, with a special emphasis on whole-genome approaches to the study of major transitions in life’s evolution, such as the origin of eukaryotes, the evolution of eukaryotic gene structure, the origin and evolution of different classes of viruses, and evolutionary systems biology.

  • kerner

    I dunno, Grace. Injecting Syphalis germs into someone’s penis and then witholding treatment such that he dies from it sounds like the moral equivalent of castration to me. I think the two compare pretty well.

    For a mid 20th century critique of godless science from a Christian (in this case, Roman Catholic) perspective, I suggest this:

    http://www.amazon.com/Canticle-Leibowitz-Bantam-Spectra-Book/dp/0553379267

    I’ve read it multiple times, I like it so much.

  • kerner

    I dunno, Grace. Injecting Syphalis germs into someone’s penis and then witholding treatment such that he dies from it sounds like the moral equivalent of castration to me. I think the two compare pretty well.

    For a mid 20th century critique of godless science from a Christian (in this case, Roman Catholic) perspective, I suggest this:

    http://www.amazon.com/Canticle-Leibowitz-Bantam-Spectra-Book/dp/0553379267

    I’ve read it multiple times, I like it so much.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    Both acts are horrific – but keep in mind, the men in prison were criminals, the children in the Nazi camps were but ‘children’ who had committed NO CRIME, but to be Jews.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    Both acts are horrific – but keep in mind, the men in prison were criminals, the children in the Nazi camps were but ‘children’ who had committed NO CRIME, but to be Jews.

  • Tom Hering

    Boy, I’m at a loss as to how being a criminal makes the horrific things done to you in prison incomparable with the horrific things done done to Jewish children in concentration camps. We’re comparing the acts, after all – not the victims.

  • Tom Hering

    Boy, I’m at a loss as to how being a criminal makes the horrific things done to you in prison incomparable with the horrific things done done to Jewish children in concentration camps. We’re comparing the acts, after all – not the victims.

  • kerner

    “Both acts are horrific – but keep in mind, the men in prison were criminals,”

    So the hell what?

    And what about the soldiers and the mental patients?

  • kerner

    “Both acts are horrific – but keep in mind, the men in prison were criminals,”

    So the hell what?

    And what about the soldiers and the mental patients?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@15), you really should try reading the article you’re saying can’t be compared:

    At least 5,500 prisoners, mental patients, soldiers and children were drafted into the experiments, including at least 1,300 who were exposed to the sexually transmitted diseases syphilis, gonorrhea and chancroid, the commission reported.

    Pretty certain these events are comparable in many ways.

    I also wonder why you think the fact that some of these people (in the US case) were prisoners somehow mitigates what was done to them.

    Finally, you should note that not everyone in the Nazi concentration camps were there for being Jewish. Some of them were also considered criminals.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@15), you really should try reading the article you’re saying can’t be compared:

    At least 5,500 prisoners, mental patients, soldiers and children were drafted into the experiments, including at least 1,300 who were exposed to the sexually transmitted diseases syphilis, gonorrhea and chancroid, the commission reported.

    Pretty certain these events are comparable in many ways.

    I also wonder why you think the fact that some of these people (in the US case) were prisoners somehow mitigates what was done to them.

    Finally, you should note that not everyone in the Nazi concentration camps were there for being Jewish. Some of them were also considered criminals.

  • Tom Hering

    And to the Nazis, being Jewish made you a criminal by nature – a traitor to the nation and a parasite on society. It was the inherent criminality of the Jews that allowed the Nazis to justify, in part, what they did to them. The fact that the Nazis wrongly judged the Jews to be irredeemable criminal types is nether here nor there in the comparison of atrocities (acts) we’re making.

  • Tom Hering

    And to the Nazis, being Jewish made you a criminal by nature – a traitor to the nation and a parasite on society. It was the inherent criminality of the Jews that allowed the Nazis to justify, in part, what they did to them. The fact that the Nazis wrongly judged the Jews to be irredeemable criminal types is nether here nor there in the comparison of atrocities (acts) we’re making.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Huh. I just discovered that Dr. Veith posted on this exact same topic (different news article, though) almost a year ago.

    His opening paragraph then was:

    Apparently, the climate of eugenics, euthanasia, racism, and “life not worth living” was current in the United States in the 1940′s, just as it was in Hitler’s Germany. Look what government scientists did in Guatemala:

    Grace commented on that thread, as well. Not only that, she quoted from the exact same New York Times article there that she did in this thread.

    Curiously missing, however, in that 2010 comment of Grace’s is the suggestion that Veith was wrong to make the comparison between what was done in “Hitler’s Germany” and “what government scientists did in Guatemala”.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Huh. I just discovered that Dr. Veith posted on this exact same topic (different news article, though) almost a year ago.

    His opening paragraph then was:

    Apparently, the climate of eugenics, euthanasia, racism, and “life not worth living” was current in the United States in the 1940′s, just as it was in Hitler’s Germany. Look what government scientists did in Guatemala:

    Grace commented on that thread, as well. Not only that, she quoted from the exact same New York Times article there that she did in this thread.

    Curiously missing, however, in that 2010 comment of Grace’s is the suggestion that Veith was wrong to make the comparison between what was done in “Hitler’s Germany” and “what government scientists did in Guatemala”.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 17

    YOU WROTE: ““Both acts are horrific – but keep in mind, the men in prison were criminals,”

    So the hell what?

    “So the hell what?” — adult criminals vs. innocent Jewish children who’s genitals are removed? That’s one hell of a comparison, whether you can see it or not!!

    Most all in concentration camps were Jews – there were those who were there for the political beliefs, Jehovah’s Witnesses as well – but again, the majority were Jews.

    The numbers of twin children were about 1500, … about 100 survived the mutilations.. without anesthetic.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 17

    YOU WROTE: ““Both acts are horrific – but keep in mind, the men in prison were criminals,”

    So the hell what?

    “So the hell what?” — adult criminals vs. innocent Jewish children who’s genitals are removed? That’s one hell of a comparison, whether you can see it or not!!

    Most all in concentration camps were Jews – there were those who were there for the political beliefs, Jehovah’s Witnesses as well – but again, the majority were Jews.

    The numbers of twin children were about 1500, … about 100 survived the mutilations.. without anesthetic.

  • Grace

    tODD – 20

    YOU WROTE: “Not only that, she quoted from the exact same New York Times article there that she did in this thread.”

    You’re right –

    I comment as I see fit -

  • Grace

    tODD – 20

    YOU WROTE: “Not only that, she quoted from the exact same New York Times article there that she did in this thread.”

    You’re right –

    I comment as I see fit -

  • Tom Hering

    I guess the fact that you’re an adult and a criminal somehow makes the atrocities performed on you less horrible. Or the fact that you’re a child and a Jew makes the atrocities performed on you incomparable. So we have more terrible and less terrible atrocities in the minds of some. Whereas most people recoil equally in response to both acts, and see no need to compare the victims themselves.

  • Tom Hering

    I guess the fact that you’re an adult and a criminal somehow makes the atrocities performed on you less horrible. Or the fact that you’re a child and a Jew makes the atrocities performed on you incomparable. So we have more terrible and less terrible atrocities in the minds of some. Whereas most people recoil equally in response to both acts, and see no need to compare the victims themselves.

  • Grace

    Medical Experiments – The Holocaust

    “The SS doctors at the Nazi death camps wore black uniforms with a skeleton’s head on their hats, the motto Unsere Ehre heisst Treue on their belts and their symbol was the double S-rune. They had sworn eternal faith to Adolf Hitler and they were his most ruthless henchmen, men often seen as the very personifications of evil.

    The camp doctors tortured men, women and children and did medical experiments of unspeakable horror during the Holocaust. Victims were put into pressure chambers, tested with drugs, castrated, frozen to death. Children were exposed to experimental surgeries performed without anesthesia, transfusions of blood from one to another, isolation endurance, reaction to various stimuli. The doctors made injections with lethal germs, sex change operations, removal of organs and limbs.

    http://www.deathcamps.info/Experiments/experiments.htm

  • Grace

    Medical Experiments – The Holocaust

    “The SS doctors at the Nazi death camps wore black uniforms with a skeleton’s head on their hats, the motto Unsere Ehre heisst Treue on their belts and their symbol was the double S-rune. They had sworn eternal faith to Adolf Hitler and they were his most ruthless henchmen, men often seen as the very personifications of evil.

    The camp doctors tortured men, women and children and did medical experiments of unspeakable horror during the Holocaust. Victims were put into pressure chambers, tested with drugs, castrated, frozen to death. Children were exposed to experimental surgeries performed without anesthesia, transfusions of blood from one to another, isolation endurance, reaction to various stimuli. The doctors made injections with lethal germs, sex change operations, removal of organs and limbs.

    http://www.deathcamps.info/Experiments/experiments.htm

  • Holly

    It’s interesting to note in regards to the above comparisons between criminals and children that by today’s standards both are specially protected groups when it come to research involving humans. Studies (unless specifically designed for minors) require special permission to enroll minors, prisoners, and other vulnerable groups (i.e. mentally disabled). Many will ban outright the enrollment of prisoners because they are particularly susceptible to coercion. Criminal status does not excuse using someone as a subject in an experiment without obtaining informed consent.

  • Holly

    It’s interesting to note in regards to the above comparisons between criminals and children that by today’s standards both are specially protected groups when it come to research involving humans. Studies (unless specifically designed for minors) require special permission to enroll minors, prisoners, and other vulnerable groups (i.e. mentally disabled). Many will ban outright the enrollment of prisoners because they are particularly susceptible to coercion. Criminal status does not excuse using someone as a subject in an experiment without obtaining informed consent.

  • Tom Hering

    Thing about informed consent is the presumption that one is mature enough, competent enough, and free enough to give it. I’m not sure a prisoner of the state is ever free enough to give it.

    Grace @ 24, what’s you’re point now? That what happened to Jewish children in concentration camps was horrible? Who are you trying to convince? Who doesn’t already agree?

  • Tom Hering

    Thing about informed consent is the presumption that one is mature enough, competent enough, and free enough to give it. I’m not sure a prisoner of the state is ever free enough to give it.

    Grace @ 24, what’s you’re point now? That what happened to Jewish children in concentration camps was horrible? Who are you trying to convince? Who doesn’t already agree?

  • Grace

    Tom @26

    You wrote: “what’s you’re point now?”

    That should be obvious!

    YOU WROTE: “That what happened to Jewish children in concentration camps was horrible? Who are you trying to convince? Who doesn’t already agree?”

    Mutilating children, removing their genitals, limbs and other atrocities, because they were Jewish, (Nazi WW2) is far worse than what was done to those who are criminals, serving time in prison.

    I made clear my views in an earlier post.

  • Grace

    Tom @26

    You wrote: “what’s you’re point now?”

    That should be obvious!

    YOU WROTE: “That what happened to Jewish children in concentration camps was horrible? Who are you trying to convince? Who doesn’t already agree?”

    Mutilating children, removing their genitals, limbs and other atrocities, because they were Jewish, (Nazi WW2) is far worse than what was done to those who are criminals, serving time in prison.

    I made clear my views in an earlier post.

  • Grace

    Tom

    Surgeries performed without anesthesia is purposeful cruelty, agonizing pain, – consider children, and adults, just because their Jewish –

    I don’t expect you or a number of those on this blog to agree with me. As Kerner tooted So the hell what? in post 17.

    Predictable!

  • Grace

    Tom

    Surgeries performed without anesthesia is purposeful cruelty, agonizing pain, – consider children, and adults, just because their Jewish –

    I don’t expect you or a number of those on this blog to agree with me. As Kerner tooted So the hell what? in post 17.

    Predictable!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@27)

    Mutilating children, removing their genitals, limbs and other atrocities, because they were Jewish, (Nazi WW2) is far worse than what was done to those who are criminals, serving time in prison.

    Hmm. Your desire to only focus on the Nazi atrocities visited on Jewish children — to the exclusion to the vast number of other people that were tortured and killed by the Nazis — is a little troubling. Why are you only talking about Jewish children, Grace?

    And, again, you’re continuing to ignore those who were infected (which is to say, tortured) and even killed by the American programs, who weren’t prisoners. Why are you ignoring the soldiers, mental patients, and children in that scenario, Grace?

    Moreover, your insistence that it’s not so bad to torture or even kill “criminals, serving time in prison” is deeply troubling. Is there some sort of torture/murder ranking you have in mind here? I mean, I get that there is a visceral aspect to how we react to various crimes, but you’re not merely expressing that, you’re insisting we all adhere to your rigid ranking, such that we get scolded by you for even daring to compare different points on your scale.

    Whatever happened to the Biblical injunctions to “Remember those who are in prison” and have compassion on them?

    By creating a scale in which it’s worse to torture/murder some people than others, you don’t defend those the Nazis persecuted — you end up doing exactly what the Nazis did, with your criminals, the prisoners being relegated, it would seem, to the Untermensch class.

    As Christians, we cannot say it’s “worse” (much less “far worse”) to torture or murder some people. We must defend all life, even the lives of those we don’t much care for.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@27)

    Mutilating children, removing their genitals, limbs and other atrocities, because they were Jewish, (Nazi WW2) is far worse than what was done to those who are criminals, serving time in prison.

    Hmm. Your desire to only focus on the Nazi atrocities visited on Jewish children — to the exclusion to the vast number of other people that were tortured and killed by the Nazis — is a little troubling. Why are you only talking about Jewish children, Grace?

    And, again, you’re continuing to ignore those who were infected (which is to say, tortured) and even killed by the American programs, who weren’t prisoners. Why are you ignoring the soldiers, mental patients, and children in that scenario, Grace?

    Moreover, your insistence that it’s not so bad to torture or even kill “criminals, serving time in prison” is deeply troubling. Is there some sort of torture/murder ranking you have in mind here? I mean, I get that there is a visceral aspect to how we react to various crimes, but you’re not merely expressing that, you’re insisting we all adhere to your rigid ranking, such that we get scolded by you for even daring to compare different points on your scale.

    Whatever happened to the Biblical injunctions to “Remember those who are in prison” and have compassion on them?

    By creating a scale in which it’s worse to torture/murder some people than others, you don’t defend those the Nazis persecuted — you end up doing exactly what the Nazis did, with your criminals, the prisoners being relegated, it would seem, to the Untermensch class.

    As Christians, we cannot say it’s “worse” (much less “far worse”) to torture or murder some people. We must defend all life, even the lives of those we don’t much care for.

  • trotk

    tODD at 29 trumps this point, but Grace, it is worth noting that our Bill of Rights forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

  • trotk

    tODD at 29 trumps this point, but Grace, it is worth noting that our Bill of Rights forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    I’m sorry for reacting in a crude way, but you really shocked me. I don’t see how doing something like that to one person can be less horrible than doing it to another. And the motive was pretty much the same: research. Let’s see what happens using human guinea pigs.

    And of course, some of the scientists performed “experiments” on people whose only crime is being Guatemalan.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    I’m sorry for reacting in a crude way, but you really shocked me. I don’t see how doing something like that to one person can be less horrible than doing it to another. And the motive was pretty much the same: research. Let’s see what happens using human guinea pigs.

    And of course, some of the scientists performed “experiments” on people whose only crime is being Guatemalan.

  • Grace

    Kerner @31

    “I don’t see how doing something like that to one person can be less horrible than doing it to another. And the motive was pretty much the same: research.

    No! …. one of Hitler’s main goals was to make a dominant race, and that did not include the Jews. He wanted the perfect Aryan or nordic race, blond hair, blue eyes.

    “Research” ? When it comes to Hitler and his SS troops, vile doctors, and all who marched lock step it wasn’t ‘research’ far from it.

  • Grace

    Kerner @31

    “I don’t see how doing something like that to one person can be less horrible than doing it to another. And the motive was pretty much the same: research.

    No! …. one of Hitler’s main goals was to make a dominant race, and that did not include the Jews. He wanted the perfect Aryan or nordic race, blond hair, blue eyes.

    “Research” ? When it comes to Hitler and his SS troops, vile doctors, and all who marched lock step it wasn’t ‘research’ far from it.

  • Tom Hering

    So now we have research which is noble, and can be called research, and research which is ignoble, and cannot be called research.

    Suddenly I feel that I, too, want to live in a world all my own. I know I won’t be able to communicate with other people anymore, or they with me, but there’s something to be said for attaining an impenetrable state of mind.

  • Tom Hering

    So now we have research which is noble, and can be called research, and research which is ignoble, and cannot be called research.

    Suddenly I feel that I, too, want to live in a world all my own. I know I won’t be able to communicate with other people anymore, or they with me, but there’s something to be said for attaining an impenetrable state of mind.

  • kerner

    To thise of you who think that the written Law has no purpose as a guide, I hope you realize that this is where that kind of approach leads.

    The scientists conducting these experiments were using their unguided reason and “the law written on their hearts” to decide that human experimentation was just fine. They probably thought they were showing love for the majority of their neighbors (though maybe not in those terms) by finding a cure for STD’s. Human beings can rationalize almost anything and call it “good” Even the Nzais did, I’ll bet.

  • kerner

    To thise of you who think that the written Law has no purpose as a guide, I hope you realize that this is where that kind of approach leads.

    The scientists conducting these experiments were using their unguided reason and “the law written on their hearts” to decide that human experimentation was just fine. They probably thought they were showing love for the majority of their neighbors (though maybe not in those terms) by finding a cure for STD’s. Human beings can rationalize almost anything and call it “good” Even the Nzais did, I’ll bet.

  • mrpreacherman

    A great book that outlines how American companies and even the Gov’t helped Hitler develop eugenics, and what not, is “War Against the Weak” by Edwin Black. Dr. Robert Wiese, Concordia- St. Louis, conducts a class on human genetics to help seminarians dig into science, this was required reading material. The book is an eye-opener!
    Here’s the link, for info about this topic: http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

  • mrpreacherman

    A great book that outlines how American companies and even the Gov’t helped Hitler develop eugenics, and what not, is “War Against the Weak” by Edwin Black. Dr. Robert Wiese, Concordia- St. Louis, conducts a class on human genetics to help seminarians dig into science, this was required reading material. The book is an eye-opener!
    Here’s the link, for info about this topic: http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Kerner (@34), sorry, but no.

    In order for your thesis to be true, you would have to know that those doing these “experiments” at no point felt a prick of conscience. And how would you prove that to me?

    If you were to look at my life, you could certainly point to no end of evil words and deeds. Do these therefore prove that I don’t have the Law written on my heart? Indeed they don’t. I feel the pricks of conscience before I do a sinful deed. And I feel the guilty conscience afterwards. God’s Law is there in my heart, just as Scripture tells us. But I do those deeds, anyhow. Because I am a wretched man.

    Why would you think it’s any different for anyone else — even the (supposedly) worse Nazi “experimenters”? The presence of sin in the world does not, in itself, constitute evidence for a lack of conscience. Consider your own life.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Kerner (@34), sorry, but no.

    In order for your thesis to be true, you would have to know that those doing these “experiments” at no point felt a prick of conscience. And how would you prove that to me?

    If you were to look at my life, you could certainly point to no end of evil words and deeds. Do these therefore prove that I don’t have the Law written on my heart? Indeed they don’t. I feel the pricks of conscience before I do a sinful deed. And I feel the guilty conscience afterwards. God’s Law is there in my heart, just as Scripture tells us. But I do those deeds, anyhow. Because I am a wretched man.

    Why would you think it’s any different for anyone else — even the (supposedly) worse Nazi “experimenters”? The presence of sin in the world does not, in itself, constitute evidence for a lack of conscience. Consider your own life.

  • Tom Hering

    mrpreacherman @ 35, thanks for reminding me about that book. It’s on its way to me now via an inter-library loan.

  • Tom Hering

    mrpreacherman @ 35, thanks for reminding me about that book. It’s on its way to me now via an inter-library loan.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “If he was to say we can still learn something from the man, while acknowledging that he was human, and did some immoral things, I’d be inclinded to go along with him. But I don’t give him a pass just because he had a great mind.”

    Yes, of course. We learned plenty from Francis Galton. He was a great thinker. Although his area of interest in genetics is not currently politically correct, it doesn’t make suspect his other work in other areas.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “If he was to say we can still learn something from the man, while acknowledging that he was human, and did some immoral things, I’d be inclinded to go along with him. But I don’t give him a pass just because he had a great mind.”

    Yes, of course. We learned plenty from Francis Galton. He was a great thinker. Although his area of interest in genetics is not currently politically correct, it doesn’t make suspect his other work in other areas.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 34

    “Human beings can rationalize almost anything and call it “good” Even the Nzais did, I’ll bet.

    WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not “rationalize” such evil practices of Hitler and the majority of Germany. Jealousy, hatred and the desire of a ‘Superior Race’ — minus the Jews were their goal.

    28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

    29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,

    30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,

    31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;

    32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    Romans 1

    Hitler was full of envy and greed. He hated the Jews for a number of reasons, and so did the majority of Germans. When ENVY takes hold, one is filled with evil and hatred, …. in the case of the the Jewish people, .. gas chambers, horrific experiments on Jewish children, to the extent of removing the genitals of boys without anesthetic was one of their inventions of evil.

    The world hasn’t forgotten, the children and grandchildren of those who suffered such agony, still see anti Semitism which is practiced TODAY. There are those in the USA who support Israel, many churches do, and then there are those who still stand against Israel and the Jews. You can call it anything you like, but it’s nothing short of anti Semitism wrapped in a number of facades.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 34

    “Human beings can rationalize almost anything and call it “good” Even the Nzais did, I’ll bet.

    WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not “rationalize” such evil practices of Hitler and the majority of Germany. Jealousy, hatred and the desire of a ‘Superior Race’ — minus the Jews were their goal.

    28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

    29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,

    30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,

    31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;

    32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    Romans 1

    Hitler was full of envy and greed. He hated the Jews for a number of reasons, and so did the majority of Germans. When ENVY takes hold, one is filled with evil and hatred, …. in the case of the the Jewish people, .. gas chambers, horrific experiments on Jewish children, to the extent of removing the genitals of boys without anesthetic was one of their inventions of evil.

    The world hasn’t forgotten, the children and grandchildren of those who suffered such agony, still see anti Semitism which is practiced TODAY. There are those in the USA who support Israel, many churches do, and then there are those who still stand against Israel and the Jews. You can call it anything you like, but it’s nothing short of anti Semitism wrapped in a number of facades.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Why do we even argue whether Joe Famous Scientist was a good guy or not? I mean plenty of these folks are dead anyway. It is not like our opinion matters. It is reasonable to identify and condemn the unethical/criminal behavior so that we can build better safeguards. That is worthwhile, to be sure, but second guessing motivations, yada, yada, at this point seems moot.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Why do we even argue whether Joe Famous Scientist was a good guy or not? I mean plenty of these folks are dead anyway. It is not like our opinion matters. It is reasonable to identify and condemn the unethical/criminal behavior so that we can build better safeguards. That is worthwhile, to be sure, but second guessing motivations, yada, yada, at this point seems moot.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Now you see, because the research on the concentration camps involved Jews it is reprehensible, but the research involving criminals and imbeciles is ok, because it wasn’t against the Jews.

    Can we not agree that both sets of actions are reprehensible? The actions of these experiments were wrong and egregious inhumane sinful actions. Thankfully, to an extent the science community has learned from these actions and have improved.

    At the same time, just because something is vile and wrong does not negate it being research. Data that has proven valuable was gained from the NAZI experiments in particular. There are reasons why source of data is such a hot debate in the scientific community.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Now you see, because the research on the concentration camps involved Jews it is reprehensible, but the research involving criminals and imbeciles is ok, because it wasn’t against the Jews.

    Can we not agree that both sets of actions are reprehensible? The actions of these experiments were wrong and egregious inhumane sinful actions. Thankfully, to an extent the science community has learned from these actions and have improved.

    At the same time, just because something is vile and wrong does not negate it being research. Data that has proven valuable was gained from the NAZI experiments in particular. There are reasons why source of data is such a hot debate in the scientific community.

  • Stephen

    Kerner,

    Why did all those Nazis commit suicide when the war was lost? Um, maybe it was conscience. Ya think maybe? What is suicide but despair over one’s life and in the case of Nazis, the desire to escape punishment? Just sayin’.

    They knew what they were doing was wrong. Just because Himmler thought he could hoodwink some SS men with how they could be decent and all and still massacre people doesn’t mean they didn’t know it was wrong. We think we can be justified by what we do or don’t do, but conscience (written by God in all of us) won’t let us rest there.

    Rationalizations such as the ones you are pointing at are the the “excusing” of a guilty conscience. The law always accuses. Always, on everyone. That is what the scriptures say. Rationalizing ones actions does not make the law stop accusing. You can run (rationalize) but you cannot hide.

    And how do we know what the wrong thing is? Reason. “Do unto others . . .” – that is, reasoning out what is right. That is the “natural law” that the Confessions speak of. Just because we know something is wrong does not mean we won’t do it. In other words, like tODD says, just because the law accuses does not mean we won’t still try to defy it and get away with sin. Out of the heart come all manner of good works, law-keeping, honesty? No, that’s not how it goes. “Out of the heart comes all manner of evil” says Jesus. That is why we need new ones.

  • Stephen

    Kerner,

    Why did all those Nazis commit suicide when the war was lost? Um, maybe it was conscience. Ya think maybe? What is suicide but despair over one’s life and in the case of Nazis, the desire to escape punishment? Just sayin’.

    They knew what they were doing was wrong. Just because Himmler thought he could hoodwink some SS men with how they could be decent and all and still massacre people doesn’t mean they didn’t know it was wrong. We think we can be justified by what we do or don’t do, but conscience (written by God in all of us) won’t let us rest there.

    Rationalizations such as the ones you are pointing at are the the “excusing” of a guilty conscience. The law always accuses. Always, on everyone. That is what the scriptures say. Rationalizing ones actions does not make the law stop accusing. You can run (rationalize) but you cannot hide.

    And how do we know what the wrong thing is? Reason. “Do unto others . . .” – that is, reasoning out what is right. That is the “natural law” that the Confessions speak of. Just because we know something is wrong does not mean we won’t do it. In other words, like tODD says, just because the law accuses does not mean we won’t still try to defy it and get away with sin. Out of the heart come all manner of good works, law-keeping, honesty? No, that’s not how it goes. “Out of the heart comes all manner of evil” says Jesus. That is why we need new ones.

  • Stephen

    Kerner,

    I think that maybe you are going on the assumption that because (or if) God tells us what the right thing is, then we will do it. Likewise, we need the written law to tell us what is wrong so we can avoid it. Paul says some things about this in Romans, about how the Jews, the ones with God’s Divine law in writing, have no excuse. Keeping the law outwardly does not spare us sin. We have not avoided anything by keeping the law. Why? It must be kept in the heart, and this is only done by the work of the HS in baptism, when we are baptized into Christ, the ONLY One who keeps the law perfectly. His righteousness becomes ours, and it doesn’t work the other way around. Our righteousness (law keeping) will never achieve his. We can’t. It can’t. We are sinners in need of a savior.

  • Stephen

    Kerner,

    I think that maybe you are going on the assumption that because (or if) God tells us what the right thing is, then we will do it. Likewise, we need the written law to tell us what is wrong so we can avoid it. Paul says some things about this in Romans, about how the Jews, the ones with God’s Divine law in writing, have no excuse. Keeping the law outwardly does not spare us sin. We have not avoided anything by keeping the law. Why? It must be kept in the heart, and this is only done by the work of the HS in baptism, when we are baptized into Christ, the ONLY One who keeps the law perfectly. His righteousness becomes ours, and it doesn’t work the other way around. Our righteousness (law keeping) will never achieve his. We can’t. It can’t. We are sinners in need of a savior.

  • Tom Hering

    kerner @ 34 speculated that Nazis could rationalize their evil deeds and call them good. To which Grace @ 39 responded, “WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not ‘rationalize’ …”

    Grace, either you equate Nazis with Christians, or you have trouble understanding the simplest arguments. I hope it’s just the latter.

  • Tom Hering

    kerner @ 34 speculated that Nazis could rationalize their evil deeds and call them good. To which Grace @ 39 responded, “WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not ‘rationalize’ …”

    Grace, either you equate Nazis with Christians, or you have trouble understanding the simplest arguments. I hope it’s just the latter.

  • Grace

    Tom @ 44

    Your post:

    44 Tom Hering September 1, 2011 at 9:26 pm
    kerner @ 34 speculated that Nazis could rationalize their evil deeds and call them good. To which Grace @ 39 responded, “WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not ‘rationalize’ …”

    Grace, either you equate Nazis with Christians, or you have trouble understanding the simplest arguments. I hope it’s just the latter.

    Tom, ….. you quoted half of my comment.
    PREDICTABLE!!! as usual – below is the entire comment.

    “WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not “rationalize” such evil practices of Hitler and the majority of Germany. Jealousy, hatred and the desire of a ‘Superior Race’ — minus the Jews were their goal.

    That which is BOLDED was left out.
    PREDICTABLE!

  • Grace

    Tom @ 44

    Your post:

    44 Tom Hering September 1, 2011 at 9:26 pm
    kerner @ 34 speculated that Nazis could rationalize their evil deeds and call them good. To which Grace @ 39 responded, “WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not ‘rationalize’ …”

    Grace, either you equate Nazis with Christians, or you have trouble understanding the simplest arguments. I hope it’s just the latter.

    Tom, ….. you quoted half of my comment.
    PREDICTABLE!!! as usual – below is the entire comment.

    “WRONG – individuals who follow Christ, do not “rationalize” such evil practices of Hitler and the majority of Germany. Jealousy, hatred and the desire of a ‘Superior Race’ — minus the Jews were their goal.

    That which is BOLDED was left out.
    PREDICTABLE!

  • Grace

    Tom @44

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, either you equate Nazis with Christians, or you have trouble understanding the simplest arguments. I hope it’s just the latter.”

    You underestimate the rest of Europe, the United States and many other places. There is nothing Christian about slaughtering 6 million Jews. There is no “simplest arguments, just useless blather regarding an excuse to save face.

    I don’t believe ANYONE who took PART in the Nazi regime was a Christian. No one could do the things they did, hate the Jews, as they did could be Christians. They often times quoted Romans 13 as their EXCUSE, no matter how twisted their reasoning, just as their hatred for the Jewish people, it’s all a sham – however the EXCUSES persist which are not believed, except in the world of ‘hatred of the Jews’ -

  • Grace

    Tom @44

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, either you equate Nazis with Christians, or you have trouble understanding the simplest arguments. I hope it’s just the latter.”

    You underestimate the rest of Europe, the United States and many other places. There is nothing Christian about slaughtering 6 million Jews. There is no “simplest arguments, just useless blather regarding an excuse to save face.

    I don’t believe ANYONE who took PART in the Nazi regime was a Christian. No one could do the things they did, hate the Jews, as they did could be Christians. They often times quoted Romans 13 as their EXCUSE, no matter how twisted their reasoning, just as their hatred for the Jewish people, it’s all a sham – however the EXCUSES persist which are not believed, except in the world of ‘hatred of the Jews’ -

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Well, is anyone surprised? Grace has gone unhinged again, and she’s once again not-so-subtlely flogging her Lutherans-hate-Jews nonsense. And all because of her poor understanding of (1) who is a Christian and (2) who, or what, is Israel.

    And, in so doing, she ends up creating a ranking of when it’s better or worse to torture or murder, depending on whom is being tortured or murdered. And then wants us to believe this is morally superior path.

    All the bold in the world won’t make that skunk stink any less.

    Consider this statement of works-righteousness:

    I don’t believe ANYONE who took PART in the Nazi regime was a Christian.

    To Grace, a Christian is defined by what he has done, not by what Christ has done for him. I’d be unhinged, too, if that were my worldview.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Well, is anyone surprised? Grace has gone unhinged again, and she’s once again not-so-subtlely flogging her Lutherans-hate-Jews nonsense. And all because of her poor understanding of (1) who is a Christian and (2) who, or what, is Israel.

    And, in so doing, she ends up creating a ranking of when it’s better or worse to torture or murder, depending on whom is being tortured or murdered. And then wants us to believe this is morally superior path.

    All the bold in the world won’t make that skunk stink any less.

    Consider this statement of works-righteousness:

    I don’t believe ANYONE who took PART in the Nazi regime was a Christian.

    To Grace, a Christian is defined by what he has done, not by what Christ has done for him. I’d be unhinged, too, if that were my worldview.

  • kerner

    Stephen @42″

    “Why did all those Nazis commit suicide when the war was lost? Um, maybe it was conscience. Ya think maybe? What is suicide but despair over one’s life and in the case of Nazis, the desire to escape punishment? Just sayin’.”

    Maybe…or maybe it was pride. The pride of thos who had built a whole social and moral construct around being superior to the rest of the world, and who were now about to be humiliated and tortured by the very people they despised.

    A lot of people would rather have died than to fall into the hands of the Russians in 1945. Many of the refugees from eastern Europe, about to be repatriated by Operation Keelhaul, committed suicide rather than go back to certain torture and death.

    http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/Keelhaul.shtml

    “We think we can be justified by what we do or don’t do, but conscience (written by God in all of us) won’t let us rest there.”

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying that our consciences are a much less reliable gauge of right and wrong than God’s written Word, and the Lutheran Confessions say so:

    http://bookofconcord.org/sd-thirduse.php

    If I may quote a single passage:

    “18] But since believers are not completely renewed in this world, but the old Adam clings to them even to the grave, there also remains in them the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Therefore they delight indeed in God’s Law according to the inner man, but the law in their members struggles against the law in their mind; hence they are never without the Law, and nevertheless are not under, but in the Law, and live and walk in the Law of the Lord, and yet do nothing from constraint of the Law.

    19] But as far as the old Adam is concerned, which still clings to them, he must be driven not only with the Law, but also with punishments; nevertheless he does everything against his will and under coercion, no less than the godless are driven and held in obedience by the threats of the Law, 1 Cor. 9:27; Rom. 7:18. 19.

    20] So, too, this doctrine of the Law is needful for believers, in order that they may not hit upon a holiness and devotion of their own, and under the pretext of the Spirit of God set up a self-chosen worship, without God’s Word and command, as it is written Deut. 12:8,28,32: Ye shall not do … every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes, etc., but observe and hear all these words which I command thee. Thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish therefrom. ” FC IV: 18:20

    Read the whole article. When you do you will see that the confessions teach that, even though God’s Law is indeed written on the hearts of all people, we also have the law of our own flesh written in our members. And this old Adam constantly fights against the law written in our hearts such that we don’t see God’s law and understand it. Rather, we are constantly mistaking the law in our flesh for God’s law and doing “what is right in our own eyes”. To avoid this, even Christians need the law as written as a guide to know what God’s law is. If we try to find it based merely on our fallen consciences and reason, we will more often than not be wrong.

    Look how much sin in the world is based on good intentions, or “love” if you will.

    Why do we have legal abortions? Because we love unwed mothers.

    Why did we have embryonic stem cell research? Because we loved the victims of Parkinsons disease.

    How do we justify torturing prisoners? Because we love America.

    How do we justify conducting experiments on Guatemalans and mental patients and soldiers and black people and criminals? Because we love the victims of STDs.

    And yes, even the Nazis, how did they justify all of their evil deeds? Because it would make the world a better place. Ultimately they sold it as an act of reason and love.

    The vast majority of sin is committed in the name of good. And most people who buy into it are sincere at the time. Rarely does a Hitler or a Stalin or a Pol Pot say to his followers, “Let’s be evil. Let’s be the bad guys.” It’s always the big lie basd on “love” and “reason”.

    Nobody ever says, “Let’s kill babies because it’s fun”. They always say they love this poor overwhelmed woman. Then they kill the baby because their reason tells them that “it feels like love”.

    We do need God’s law to tell us what is right no matter how we feel, because God knows how to show love better than we do, and our consciences guided by His Word, as written, are way more reliable that our consciences without it.

  • kerner

    Stephen @42″

    “Why did all those Nazis commit suicide when the war was lost? Um, maybe it was conscience. Ya think maybe? What is suicide but despair over one’s life and in the case of Nazis, the desire to escape punishment? Just sayin’.”

    Maybe…or maybe it was pride. The pride of thos who had built a whole social and moral construct around being superior to the rest of the world, and who were now about to be humiliated and tortured by the very people they despised.

    A lot of people would rather have died than to fall into the hands of the Russians in 1945. Many of the refugees from eastern Europe, about to be repatriated by Operation Keelhaul, committed suicide rather than go back to certain torture and death.

    http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/Keelhaul.shtml

    “We think we can be justified by what we do or don’t do, but conscience (written by God in all of us) won’t let us rest there.”

    I’m not saying that. I’m saying that our consciences are a much less reliable gauge of right and wrong than God’s written Word, and the Lutheran Confessions say so:

    http://bookofconcord.org/sd-thirduse.php

    If I may quote a single passage:

    “18] But since believers are not completely renewed in this world, but the old Adam clings to them even to the grave, there also remains in them the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Therefore they delight indeed in God’s Law according to the inner man, but the law in their members struggles against the law in their mind; hence they are never without the Law, and nevertheless are not under, but in the Law, and live and walk in the Law of the Lord, and yet do nothing from constraint of the Law.

    19] But as far as the old Adam is concerned, which still clings to them, he must be driven not only with the Law, but also with punishments; nevertheless he does everything against his will and under coercion, no less than the godless are driven and held in obedience by the threats of the Law, 1 Cor. 9:27; Rom. 7:18. 19.

    20] So, too, this doctrine of the Law is needful for believers, in order that they may not hit upon a holiness and devotion of their own, and under the pretext of the Spirit of God set up a self-chosen worship, without God’s Word and command, as it is written Deut. 12:8,28,32: Ye shall not do … every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes, etc., but observe and hear all these words which I command thee. Thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish therefrom. ” FC IV: 18:20

    Read the whole article. When you do you will see that the confessions teach that, even though God’s Law is indeed written on the hearts of all people, we also have the law of our own flesh written in our members. And this old Adam constantly fights against the law written in our hearts such that we don’t see God’s law and understand it. Rather, we are constantly mistaking the law in our flesh for God’s law and doing “what is right in our own eyes”. To avoid this, even Christians need the law as written as a guide to know what God’s law is. If we try to find it based merely on our fallen consciences and reason, we will more often than not be wrong.

    Look how much sin in the world is based on good intentions, or “love” if you will.

    Why do we have legal abortions? Because we love unwed mothers.

    Why did we have embryonic stem cell research? Because we loved the victims of Parkinsons disease.

    How do we justify torturing prisoners? Because we love America.

    How do we justify conducting experiments on Guatemalans and mental patients and soldiers and black people and criminals? Because we love the victims of STDs.

    And yes, even the Nazis, how did they justify all of their evil deeds? Because it would make the world a better place. Ultimately they sold it as an act of reason and love.

    The vast majority of sin is committed in the name of good. And most people who buy into it are sincere at the time. Rarely does a Hitler or a Stalin or a Pol Pot say to his followers, “Let’s be evil. Let’s be the bad guys.” It’s always the big lie basd on “love” and “reason”.

    Nobody ever says, “Let’s kill babies because it’s fun”. They always say they love this poor overwhelmed woman. Then they kill the baby because their reason tells them that “it feels like love”.

    We do need God’s law to tell us what is right no matter how we feel, because God knows how to show love better than we do, and our consciences guided by His Word, as written, are way more reliable that our consciences without it.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: Grace @ 45 & 46.

    Oy vey.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: Grace @ 45 & 46.

    Oy vey.

  • Stephen

    Kerner

    “18] But since believers are not completely renewed in this world, but the old Adam clings to them even to the grave, there also remains in them the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Therefore they delight indeed in God’s Law according to the inner man, but the law in their members struggles against the law in their mind; hence they are never without the Law, and nevertheless are not under, but in the Law, and live and walk in the Law of the Lord, and yet do nothing from constraint of the Law.

    Read this a few times. It makes my point. I see what you are saying. What people say they are doing, all those things you list are EXCUSES. People try to excuse themselves from the law written in the mind all the time precisely becasue of sin (the “law” of the flesh as in Romans 8). Of course people rationalize their behavior, but the LAW ALWAYS ACCUSES even if we try to excuse ourselves from it by rationalizing our sin. The law of the Spirit does not only accuse us when we read it in scripture. If that were the case, how could that law written in the mind (Divine Law of the Holy Spirit) ALWAYS (constantly, without relief) accuse?

    tODD had it right. To determine whether or not the law accuses the conscience of anyone you would have to know their heart and not only what they try to rationalize. But you cannot do that. Only the Spirit can. And the scriptures tell us that the Law always accuses.

    “the law in their members struggles against the law in their mind; hence they are never without the Law” NEVER without the law. Here, that never refers to the Old Adam. The new creation does not need the law except (in the earthly kingdom) in so far as it is applied to mortify old Adam.

    And what does that law accuse us of? Not loving our neighbor as ourselves, the whole purpose of the law. It accuses Nazis who kill Jews and try to excuse it, people who have and give abortions and try to rationalize it, and on and on, right until death. The law kills. Thank God for Jesus Christ (Romans 7).

  • Stephen

    Kerner

    “18] But since believers are not completely renewed in this world, but the old Adam clings to them even to the grave, there also remains in them the struggle between the spirit and the flesh. Therefore they delight indeed in God’s Law according to the inner man, but the law in their members struggles against the law in their mind; hence they are never without the Law, and nevertheless are not under, but in the Law, and live and walk in the Law of the Lord, and yet do nothing from constraint of the Law.

    Read this a few times. It makes my point. I see what you are saying. What people say they are doing, all those things you list are EXCUSES. People try to excuse themselves from the law written in the mind all the time precisely becasue of sin (the “law” of the flesh as in Romans 8). Of course people rationalize their behavior, but the LAW ALWAYS ACCUSES even if we try to excuse ourselves from it by rationalizing our sin. The law of the Spirit does not only accuse us when we read it in scripture. If that were the case, how could that law written in the mind (Divine Law of the Holy Spirit) ALWAYS (constantly, without relief) accuse?

    tODD had it right. To determine whether or not the law accuses the conscience of anyone you would have to know their heart and not only what they try to rationalize. But you cannot do that. Only the Spirit can. And the scriptures tell us that the Law always accuses.

    “the law in their members struggles against the law in their mind; hence they are never without the Law” NEVER without the law. Here, that never refers to the Old Adam. The new creation does not need the law except (in the earthly kingdom) in so far as it is applied to mortify old Adam.

    And what does that law accuse us of? Not loving our neighbor as ourselves, the whole purpose of the law. It accuses Nazis who kill Jews and try to excuse it, people who have and give abortions and try to rationalize it, and on and on, right until death. The law kills. Thank God for Jesus Christ (Romans 7).

  • Grace

    After the war, the Nazi’s in ruin, the shameful deeds, the WORLD to see, and they did and do to this day. Nazi’s fled to other countries, or committed suicide like the cowards they were/are. They didn’t want to face the consequences of their wicked deeds. They could no longer boast in public of their ‘lock step hatred of others, so, …. many of them cowardly killed themselves to avoid punishment. There SUPER RACE DREAM, extinguished, by the efforts of many nations in WW2.

    Even today, there are those who try (unsuccessfully) to cover up the Holocaust, the death camps, the gas chambers, the horrific deeds done to others.

    Roman 13 is portion of Scripture used by Nazi’s and others , as an evil excuse for their wicked deeds, even today! Using the Bible to cover themselves. It doesn’t work, there is no cover for such deeds.

    Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS, and he lists the sins…….and in verse 21 Paul says “I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Reading Galatians 5 below, you can see this WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME Paul had WARNED THEM.

    They were Believers, THE REASON IS, Paul was NOT telling them how to be SAVED, to obtain Salvation, BUT he was WARNING BELIEVERS what would happen if they went back into sin. It was a WARNING, and its a WARNING TODAY to all Believers. Just because someone says they are a Believer, Baptized .. doesn’t give them a pass to sin. There is no excuse to continue sinning.

    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;Adultery fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5

    POINT BEING: I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Grace

    After the war, the Nazi’s in ruin, the shameful deeds, the WORLD to see, and they did and do to this day. Nazi’s fled to other countries, or committed suicide like the cowards they were/are. They didn’t want to face the consequences of their wicked deeds. They could no longer boast in public of their ‘lock step hatred of others, so, …. many of them cowardly killed themselves to avoid punishment. There SUPER RACE DREAM, extinguished, by the efforts of many nations in WW2.

    Even today, there are those who try (unsuccessfully) to cover up the Holocaust, the death camps, the gas chambers, the horrific deeds done to others.

    Roman 13 is portion of Scripture used by Nazi’s and others , as an evil excuse for their wicked deeds, even today! Using the Bible to cover themselves. It doesn’t work, there is no cover for such deeds.

    Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS, and he lists the sins…….and in verse 21 Paul says “I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Reading Galatians 5 below, you can see this WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME Paul had WARNED THEM.

    They were Believers, THE REASON IS, Paul was NOT telling them how to be SAVED, to obtain Salvation, BUT he was WARNING BELIEVERS what would happen if they went back into sin. It was a WARNING, and its a WARNING TODAY to all Believers. Just because someone says they are a Believer, Baptized .. doesn’t give them a pass to sin. There is no excuse to continue sinning.

    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;Adultery fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5

    POINT BEING: I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Stephen

    “We do need God’s law to tell us what is right no matter how we feel, because God knows how to show love better than we do, and our consciences guided by His Word, as written, are way more reliable that our consciences without it.”

    This assumes there are two LAWs and not one. There is only one, and it always accuses. We do not escape the law’s accusations through rationalizations any more than we do by “doing” the law (which we actually cannot do) and staying out of trouble. There is not a single time I ever went to church and heard the absolution and said “not me. I’ll take a pass. I’m good.” How about you ? What is it that convicts you of your sin? Is it about doing bad things. Sort of, but I know I have not truly, perfectly, loved my neighbor as myself. And what about not loving God with our whole heart? How am I doing there?

    Furthermore, to say that some can rationalize away the law written by Almighty God in the minds of ALL to the point where it does not accuse (as if there were no law at all) is simply a misunderstanding of the Divine Law. Rationalizations in the face of sin are simply idolatry. “At least I’m not a Nazi, or a feminist, or a Communist, etc., etc. is just as much an attempt excuse one’s self from the accusations of the law as is convincing yourself (beyond reason) that genocide is permissible. Both place what we do or do not do as propitiation for sin, the place that only Christ belongs (read the Heidelburg Disputations). Only in Christ does the law cease to accuse. Everything else is an attempt to excuse ourselves from its accusations.

    Think of the rich young man who comes to Jesus and asks him how to inherit the kingdom. He tells Jesus he has KEPT the law. Jesus says, well then, you lack one more thing. Give up EVERYTHING and follow me. This he could not do because he had much, which means he had too many idols and no actual faith in God, even though he had kept the law!!! The law accused him right there for his lack of faith.

    Clean out your bank accounts and retirement and hand it over to the bum on the corner. Will that act of mercy justify you with God? No, even though it may be sincere love and a desire within you to truly love your neighbor as yourself. Why? Because we cannot fulfill the law by our works. And yet, this is exactly the works that the law demands, accusing us endlessly for not doing it. Why? So that our neighbor gets loved. That love is extorted out of us by the law.

    Or the woman with the two coppers. While the pharisees gave more, she gave EVERYTHING. Complete trust in God. Blessed are the poor, not because they don’t have any cash, but because they must depend on God for everything. Who does that?
    Even St. Paul cries out to God for mercy because the law accuses him. Even keeping the law does not excuse anyone. No one is righteous, not one.

  • Stephen

    “We do need God’s law to tell us what is right no matter how we feel, because God knows how to show love better than we do, and our consciences guided by His Word, as written, are way more reliable that our consciences without it.”

    This assumes there are two LAWs and not one. There is only one, and it always accuses. We do not escape the law’s accusations through rationalizations any more than we do by “doing” the law (which we actually cannot do) and staying out of trouble. There is not a single time I ever went to church and heard the absolution and said “not me. I’ll take a pass. I’m good.” How about you ? What is it that convicts you of your sin? Is it about doing bad things. Sort of, but I know I have not truly, perfectly, loved my neighbor as myself. And what about not loving God with our whole heart? How am I doing there?

    Furthermore, to say that some can rationalize away the law written by Almighty God in the minds of ALL to the point where it does not accuse (as if there were no law at all) is simply a misunderstanding of the Divine Law. Rationalizations in the face of sin are simply idolatry. “At least I’m not a Nazi, or a feminist, or a Communist, etc., etc. is just as much an attempt excuse one’s self from the accusations of the law as is convincing yourself (beyond reason) that genocide is permissible. Both place what we do or do not do as propitiation for sin, the place that only Christ belongs (read the Heidelburg Disputations). Only in Christ does the law cease to accuse. Everything else is an attempt to excuse ourselves from its accusations.

    Think of the rich young man who comes to Jesus and asks him how to inherit the kingdom. He tells Jesus he has KEPT the law. Jesus says, well then, you lack one more thing. Give up EVERYTHING and follow me. This he could not do because he had much, which means he had too many idols and no actual faith in God, even though he had kept the law!!! The law accused him right there for his lack of faith.

    Clean out your bank accounts and retirement and hand it over to the bum on the corner. Will that act of mercy justify you with God? No, even though it may be sincere love and a desire within you to truly love your neighbor as yourself. Why? Because we cannot fulfill the law by our works. And yet, this is exactly the works that the law demands, accusing us endlessly for not doing it. Why? So that our neighbor gets loved. That love is extorted out of us by the law.

    Or the woman with the two coppers. While the pharisees gave more, she gave EVERYTHING. Complete trust in God. Blessed are the poor, not because they don’t have any cash, but because they must depend on God for everything. Who does that?
    Even St. Paul cries out to God for mercy because the law accuses him. Even keeping the law does not excuse anyone. No one is righteous, not one.

  • nowafonseca

    @Grace

    I’m confused about what you stated hear:
    ” THE REASON IS, Paul was NOT telling them how to be SAVED, to obtain Salvation, BUT he was WARNING BELIEVERS what would happen if they went back into sin. It was a WARNING, and its a WARNING TODAY to all Believers. Just because someone says they are a Believer, Baptized .. doesn’t give them a pass to sin. There is no excuse to continue sinning.

    what do you mean by “doesn’t give them a pass to sin. There is no excuse to continue sinning.” ?

    I’m also confused by the intitial statement of:

    “Mutilating children, removing their genitals, limbs and other atrocities, because they were Jewish, (Nazi WW2) is far worse than what was done to those who are criminals, serving time in prison.”

    I’m also not sure about how you drew this conclusion. Being new to this blog, I am out of touch with the backgrounds of those here. Are you by chance a Baptist?

  • nowafonseca

    @Grace

    I’m confused about what you stated hear:
    ” THE REASON IS, Paul was NOT telling them how to be SAVED, to obtain Salvation, BUT he was WARNING BELIEVERS what would happen if they went back into sin. It was a WARNING, and its a WARNING TODAY to all Believers. Just because someone says they are a Believer, Baptized .. doesn’t give them a pass to sin. There is no excuse to continue sinning.

    what do you mean by “doesn’t give them a pass to sin. There is no excuse to continue sinning.” ?

    I’m also confused by the intitial statement of:

    “Mutilating children, removing their genitals, limbs and other atrocities, because they were Jewish, (Nazi WW2) is far worse than what was done to those who are criminals, serving time in prison.”

    I’m also not sure about how you drew this conclusion. Being new to this blog, I am out of touch with the backgrounds of those here. Are you by chance a Baptist?

  • Grace

    53 – nowafonseca

    You mix and match questions – I don’t have time, nor the interest to unscramble your questions!

    YOU WROTE: “Are you by chance a Baptist?”

    No I’m not – what does that have to do with WW2, Nazi’s, death camps, etc?

  • Grace

    53 – nowafonseca

    You mix and match questions – I don’t have time, nor the interest to unscramble your questions!

    YOU WROTE: “Are you by chance a Baptist?”

    No I’m not – what does that have to do with WW2, Nazi’s, death camps, etc?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Once again, Grace gives vent to her Christless Christianity (@51), which is all about how you can’t sin intentionally — at least not for sins that Grace deems bad enough — once you become a Christian, and if you do, you’re no longer a Christian, or there is no forgiveness for you.

    All of this, of course, intertwined with a poor understanding of what the Biblical Israel is (as Paul explains in the second half of Romans, among other places), such that sins against Jewish people are deemed by her as worse than sins against others.

    Not surprisingly, underlying this all is Grace’s continued theme on this blog that Lutherans hate the Jews.

    Grace, you know perfectly well that you’ve been warned many, many times about these behaviors. It’s been explained to you that this behavior — ignorant and repulsive as it is — may result in your being banned.

    Do you just keep forgetting?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Once again, Grace gives vent to her Christless Christianity (@51), which is all about how you can’t sin intentionally — at least not for sins that Grace deems bad enough — once you become a Christian, and if you do, you’re no longer a Christian, or there is no forgiveness for you.

    All of this, of course, intertwined with a poor understanding of what the Biblical Israel is (as Paul explains in the second half of Romans, among other places), such that sins against Jewish people are deemed by her as worse than sins against others.

    Not surprisingly, underlying this all is Grace’s continued theme on this blog that Lutherans hate the Jews.

    Grace, you know perfectly well that you’ve been warned many, many times about these behaviors. It’s been explained to you that this behavior — ignorant and repulsive as it is — may result in your being banned.

    Do you just keep forgetting?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Nowafonseca (@53), Grace typically sounds like a Baptist, yes, but she’s a member of the Calvary Chapel denomination, and, as such, bristles when you accuse her of being part of any other denomination. Of course, she bristles at pretty much everything said on this blog, so don’t take it personally. She’s bristly.

    I’ve touched on (@55) some of her ongoing themes in her comments here, just so you know that, yes, you are walking into a conversation that goes quite a ways back. Sorry. It’s a bit of a minefield when she’s around.

    Best to ignore her. She never “has time” to answer any decent questions, anyhow.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Nowafonseca (@53), Grace typically sounds like a Baptist, yes, but she’s a member of the Calvary Chapel denomination, and, as such, bristles when you accuse her of being part of any other denomination. Of course, she bristles at pretty much everything said on this blog, so don’t take it personally. She’s bristly.

    I’ve touched on (@55) some of her ongoing themes in her comments here, just so you know that, yes, you are walking into a conversation that goes quite a ways back. Sorry. It’s a bit of a minefield when she’s around.

    Best to ignore her. She never “has time” to answer any decent questions, anyhow.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Calvery Chapel, Baptist is there really a difference outside of one is honest about being a denomination.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Calvery Chapel, Baptist is there really a difference outside of one is honest about being a denomination.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 55

    You write: “Not surprisingly, underlying this all is Grace’s continued theme on this blog that Lutherans hate the Jews.

    Grace, you know perfectly well that you’ve been warned many, many times about these behaviors. It’s been explained to you that this behavior — ignorant and repulsive as it is — may result in your being banned.”

    I have not mentioned the name Lutheran or Luther on this thread, nor have I intimated Lutheran or Luther. Is it your MAIN THEME to invent things to accuse me of, which are untrue?

    You have threatened with BANNING several times –

    I don’t believe all of anyone hates the Jews, that would include Lutherans. As I mentioned earlier, many Nazi’s fled: (see post #51). Nazi’s fled to other countries, or committed suicide like the cowards they were/are.

    Just today there was an excellent article on that very subject:

    The Telegraph

    Eva Peron ‘kept Nazi treasure taken from Jews’
    Friday 02 September 2011

    By Robin Yapp, Sao Paulo

    ____________An excerpt from article:

    However, Mr Peron helped many Nazis fleeing Europe after the Second World War to find a safe haven in Argentina, including Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele.

    According to the new book: “It is still suspected that among her [Eva Peron’s] possessions, there were pieces of Nazi treasure, that came from rich Jewish families killed in concentration camps.

    “Peron himself even spoke of goods of ‘German and Japanese origin’ that the Argentine government had appropriated.” Looking further back in history, the authors write of Bolivar: “His greatest fear was that blacks, Indians and those of mixed race would take power and install a government.” Allende, who killed himself in 1973 during a coup which saw General Augusto Pinochet depose him, is accused of having “stifled the media”.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/8735411/Eva-Peron-kept-Nazi-treasure-taken-from-Jews.html

  • Grace

    tODD @ 55

    You write: “Not surprisingly, underlying this all is Grace’s continued theme on this blog that Lutherans hate the Jews.

    Grace, you know perfectly well that you’ve been warned many, many times about these behaviors. It’s been explained to you that this behavior — ignorant and repulsive as it is — may result in your being banned.”

    I have not mentioned the name Lutheran or Luther on this thread, nor have I intimated Lutheran or Luther. Is it your MAIN THEME to invent things to accuse me of, which are untrue?

    You have threatened with BANNING several times –

    I don’t believe all of anyone hates the Jews, that would include Lutherans. As I mentioned earlier, many Nazi’s fled: (see post #51). Nazi’s fled to other countries, or committed suicide like the cowards they were/are.

    Just today there was an excellent article on that very subject:

    The Telegraph

    Eva Peron ‘kept Nazi treasure taken from Jews’
    Friday 02 September 2011

    By Robin Yapp, Sao Paulo

    ____________An excerpt from article:

    However, Mr Peron helped many Nazis fleeing Europe after the Second World War to find a safe haven in Argentina, including Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele.

    According to the new book: “It is still suspected that among her [Eva Peron’s] possessions, there were pieces of Nazi treasure, that came from rich Jewish families killed in concentration camps.

    “Peron himself even spoke of goods of ‘German and Japanese origin’ that the Argentine government had appropriated.” Looking further back in history, the authors write of Bolivar: “His greatest fear was that blacks, Indians and those of mixed race would take power and install a government.” Allende, who killed himself in 1973 during a coup which saw General Augusto Pinochet depose him, is accused of having “stifled the media”.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/argentina/8735411/Eva-Peron-kept-Nazi-treasure-taken-from-Jews.html

  • Grace

    Century @57

    You wrote: “Calvery Chapel, Baptist is there really a difference outside of one is honest about being a denomination.”

    There is a big difference – I have given my answers many times, if you are unable to understand them, so be it.

  • Grace

    Century @57

    You wrote: “Calvery Chapel, Baptist is there really a difference outside of one is honest about being a denomination.”

    There is a big difference – I have given my answers many times, if you are unable to understand them, so be it.

  • Grace

    Below is a typical remark, …. childish!

    Web Monk @8

    ” (want to start baiting Grace and mention Luther and Jews? :) )”

  • Grace

    Below is a typical remark, …. childish!

    Web Monk @8

    ” (want to start baiting Grace and mention Luther and Jews? :) )”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Folks, stop baiting each other. And do NOT get into or provoke a Luther & the Jews discussion. That will be deleted.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Folks, stop baiting each other. And do NOT get into or provoke a Luther & the Jews discussion. That will be deleted.

  • nowafonseca

    I mean no real offense. I’m sorry, Grace. You may ignore my questions, and I will engage you no further. I simply didn’t understand your statements and only wanted to find out more about what you thought and why.

    Thank you tODD.

  • nowafonseca

    I mean no real offense. I’m sorry, Grace. You may ignore my questions, and I will engage you no further. I simply didn’t understand your statements and only wanted to find out more about what you thought and why.

    Thank you tODD.

  • Grace

    nowafonseca 62 and 53

    You made a comment yesterday @ 53 : “Being new to this blog, I am out of touch with the backgrounds of those here.

    I’ve seen you posting on this blog last year, and this year as well, that isn’t exactly “new” –

    You posted today @62 “I simply didn’t understand your statements and only wanted to find out more about what you thought and why.”

    Taking ‘snippets, from a number of my posts on this thread, taking them out of context, expecting me to comment is not something I have time for. I made my views very clear.

    Have a good holiday weekend!

  • Grace

    nowafonseca 62 and 53

    You made a comment yesterday @ 53 : “Being new to this blog, I am out of touch with the backgrounds of those here.

    I’ve seen you posting on this blog last year, and this year as well, that isn’t exactly “new” –

    You posted today @62 “I simply didn’t understand your statements and only wanted to find out more about what you thought and why.”

    Taking ‘snippets, from a number of my posts on this thread, taking them out of context, expecting me to comment is not something I have time for. I made my views very clear.

    Have a good holiday weekend!

  • nowafonseca

    In my defense, occasionally blogging with long monthly spans in between doesn’t give me time to adequately remember everyone personally or their views, much less names. I am not a regular, but I am considering becoming one.

    I hope you would not want me to judge anything you write about based on the few times over the last year or so that I don’t really remember. I honestly don’t remember who most of these people are.

    This is the reason I asked, to get to know more about you and to understand the things you wrote, before I could agree or disagree.

    I hope you have a good weekend as well.

  • nowafonseca

    In my defense, occasionally blogging with long monthly spans in between doesn’t give me time to adequately remember everyone personally or their views, much less names. I am not a regular, but I am considering becoming one.

    I hope you would not want me to judge anything you write about based on the few times over the last year or so that I don’t really remember. I honestly don’t remember who most of these people are.

    This is the reason I asked, to get to know more about you and to understand the things you wrote, before I could agree or disagree.

    I hope you have a good weekend as well.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Welcome, nowafanseca, to the Veith Blogosphere. When I saw your first post I fell over laughing because you said the one thing outside of “Luther is AWESOME” that was guaranteed to send Grace off the deep end. Don’t feel bad, it happens I for one do not expect a person who has occasionally been here to know all the commentors and their backgrounds. I have been here for years and I still don’t know everybody’s background. Also, there is really very little to distinguish baptists and calvary chapelors (?), theologically speaking.

    Anyhow welcome! And Blessed Vocation Day!

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Welcome, nowafanseca, to the Veith Blogosphere. When I saw your first post I fell over laughing because you said the one thing outside of “Luther is AWESOME” that was guaranteed to send Grace off the deep end. Don’t feel bad, it happens I for one do not expect a person who has occasionally been here to know all the commentors and their backgrounds. I have been here for years and I still don’t know everybody’s background. Also, there is really very little to distinguish baptists and calvary chapelors (?), theologically speaking.

    Anyhow welcome! And Blessed Vocation Day!

  • nowafonseca

    So I see. It was an honest mistake, I assure you. I have quite a few friends with Baptist leanings, they are some of my greatest allies when defending the Word of God…….except in the case of Baptism.

    I’ll shall be enjoying a German type Labor day fully equipped with medium-rare burgers, beer, and brats with onions! God bless you and our country, that we may always enjoy the fruit of our “Labor.”

  • nowafonseca

    So I see. It was an honest mistake, I assure you. I have quite a few friends with Baptist leanings, they are some of my greatest allies when defending the Word of God…….except in the case of Baptism.

    I’ll shall be enjoying a German type Labor day fully equipped with medium-rare burgers, beer, and brats with onions! God bless you and our country, that we may always enjoy the fruit of our “Labor.”

  • Pingback: CTV Edmonton – Got an STD? Send your partners an anonymous email – CTV News | Dating

  • Pingback: CTV Edmonton – Got an STD? Send your partners an anonymous email – CTV News | Dating

  • watergate71

    help! us-japan war experiment victim in the philippines! being killed for land and human settlement funds
    wwII fertilization, insemination, forced impregnation on comfort (communication port) women
    1970s martial law and apollo landing a hoax to hide experimental children
    human settlement money stolen by cronies and families. find big landowners of DAR.
    victims being killed to prevent them from knowing about human settlement fund meant for them

  • watergate71

    Unit 731

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to: navigation, search

    Unit 731

    The Unit 731 complex

    Location

    Pingfang

    Coordinates

    45.6°N 126.633333°ECoordinates: 45.6°N 126.633333°E

    Date

    1935–1945

    Attack type

    Human experimentation.
    Biological/chemical warfare

    Weapon(s)

    Biological weapons
    Chemical weapons
    Explosives

    Deaths

    Over 3,000 from inside experiments and tens of thousands from field experiments

    Perpetrators

    General Shirō Ishii
    Lt. General Masaji Kitano
    Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army

    Unit 731 (731部隊 Nana-san-ichi butai?, Chinese: 731部队) was a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that undertook lethal human experimentation during the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945) and World War II. It was responsible for some of the most notorious war crimes carried out by Japanese personnel. Unit 731 was based at the Pingfang district of Harbin, the largest city in the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo (now Northeast China).

    It was officially known as the Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army (関東軍防疫給水部本部 Kantōgun Bōeki Kyūsuibu Honbu?). Originally set up under the Kempeitai military police of the Empire of Japan, Unit 731 was taken over and commanded until the end of the war by General Shiro Ishii, an officer in the Kwantung Army.

    Between 3,000 and 12,000 men, women, and children[1][2][3]—from which around 600 every year were provided by the Kempeitai[4]—were murdered during the human experimentation conducted by Unit 731 at the camp based in Pingfang alone, which does not include victims from other medical experimentation sites.[5] Almost 70% of the victims who died in the Pingfang camp were Chinese, including both civilian and military.[6] Close to 30% of the victims were Russian.[7] Some others were South East Asians and Pacific Islanders, at the time colonies of the Empire of Japan, and a small number of the prisoners of war from the Allies of World War II[8] (although many more Allied POWs were victims of Unit 731 at other sites[1]).

    Many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials; others surrendered to the American Forces. It has been postulated that one reason the scientists were not tried was that the information and experience gained in the studies of the biological warfare was of a great value for the United States biological weapons development program.[9] On 6 May 1947, Douglas MacArthur, as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, wrote to Washington that “additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as ‘War Crimes’ evidence.”[10] The deal was concluded in 1948.

    Contents
    [hide] 1 Formation
    2 Activities 2.1 Vivisection
    2.2 Germ warfare attacks
    2.3 Weapons testing
    2.4 Other experiments

    3 Biological warfare
    4 Known unit members
    5 Divisions
    6 Facilities 6.1 Shinjuku
    6.2 Guangzhou
    6.3 Related units
    6.4 Mukden POW camp

    7 Surrender and immunity 7.1 Destruction of evidence
    7.2 American grant of immunity
    7.3 Separate Soviet trials

    8 After World War II 8.1 Official silence under Occupation
    8.2 Post-Occupation Japanese media coverage and debate
    8.3 Official government response in Japan
    8.4 Abroad

    9 See also 9.1 Pacific War (World War II)
    9.2 Other human experimentation

    10 References
    11 Further reading
    12 External links

    Formation

    Shiro Ishii, commander of Unit 731
    In 1932, General Shirō Ishii (石井四郎 Ishii Shirō), chief medical officer of the Japanese Army and protégé of Army Minister Sadao Araki was placed in command of the Army Epidemic Prevention Research Laboratory. Ishii organized a secret research group, the “Tōgō Unit”, for the conduct of various chemical and biological investigations in Manchuria. Ishii had proposed the creation of a Japanese biological and chemical research unit in 1930, after a two-year study trip abroad, on the grounds that Western powers were developing their own programs. One of Ishii’s main supporters inside the army was Colonel Chikahiko Koizumi, who later became Japan’s Health Minister from 1941 to 1945. Koizumi had joined a secret poison gas research committee back in 1915, during World War I, when he and other Japanese army officers were impressed by the successful German use of chlorine gas at the second battle of Ypres, where the Allies suffered 15,000 casualties as a result of the chemical attack.[11]

    Unit Tōgō was implemented in the Zhongma Fortress, a prison/experimentation camp in Beiyinhe, a village 100 km (62 mi) south of Harbin on the South Manchurian Railway. A jailbreak in autumn 1934 and later explosion (believed to be an attack) in 1935 led Ishii to shut down Zhongma Fortress. He received the authorization to move to Pingfang, approximately 24 km (15 mi) south of Harbin, to set up a new and much larger facility.[12]

    In 1936, Hirohito authorized, by imperial decree, the expansion of this unit and its integration into the Kwantung Army as the Epidemic Prevention Department.[13] It was divided at the same time into the “Ishii Unit” and “Wakamatsu Unit” with a base in Hsinking. From August 1940, all these units were known collectively as the “Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army (関東軍防疫給水部本部)”[14] or “Unit 731″ (満州第731部隊) for short.

    Activities

    Weapons of mass destruction

    By type

    ­Biological ·
    ­Chemical ·
    ­Nuclear ·
    ­Radiological

    By country

    ­Albania ·
    ­Algeria ·
    ­Argentina ·
    ­Australia ·
    ­Brazil ·
    ­Bulgaria ·
    ­Burma ·
    ­Canada ·
    ­PRC ·
    ­France ·
    ­Germany ·
    ­India ·
    ­Iran ·
    ­Iraq ·
    ­Israel ·
    ­Japan ·
    ­Libya ·
    ­Mexico ·
    ­Netherlands ·
    ­North Korea ·
    ­Pakistan ·
    ­Poland ·
    ­Romania ·
    ­Russia ·
    ­Saudi Arabia ·
    ­South Africa ·
    ­South Korea ·
    ­Sweden ·
    ­Syria ·
    ­ROC (Taiwan) ·
    ­Ukraine ·
    ­United Kingdom ·
    ­United States

    Proliferation

    ­Chemical ·
    ­Nuclear ·
    ­Missiles

    Treaties

    ­List of treaties

    ­ Book ·
    ­ Category

    ­v ·
    ­t ·
    ­e

    A special project code-named Maruta used human beings for experiments. Test subjects were gathered from the surrounding population and were sometimes referred to euphemistically as “logs” (丸太 maruta?).[1] This term originated as a joke on the part of the staff because the official cover story for the facility given to the local authorities was that it was a lumber mill.[1] In an account by a man who worked as a “junior uniformed civilian employee” of the Japanese Army in Unit 731, the term Maruta came from German, meaning medical experiment, used in such contexts as, “How many logs fell?”[15]

    The test subjects were selected to give a wide cross section of the population and included common criminals, captured bandits and anti-Japanese partisans, political prisoners, and also people rounded up by the Kempetai for alleged “suspicious activities”. They included infants, the elderly, and pregnant women.

    Vivisection

    Prisoners of war were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia.[1][16] Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Scientists performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on the human body. These were conducted while the patients were alive because it was feared that the decomposition process would affect the results.[1][17] The infected and vivisected prisoners included men, women, children, and infants.[18]

    Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss.[1] Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of the body.[1] Some prisoners’ limbs were frozen and amputated, while others had limbs frozen then thawed to study the effects of the resultant untreated gangrene and rotting.

    Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines.[1] Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etc. were removed from some prisoners.[1][16][19]

    In 2007, the Japanese army surgeon Ken Yuasa testified to the Japan Times that, “I was afraid during my first vivisection, but the second time around, it was much easier. By the third time, I was willing to do it.” He believes at least 1,000 people, including surgeons, were involved in vivisections over mainland China.[20]

    Germ warfare attacks

    Prisoners were injected with inoculations of disease, disguised as vaccinations, to study their effects.[1] To study the effects of untreated venereal diseases, male and female prisoners were deliberately infected with syphilis and gonorrhea, then studied.[1] Prisoners were infested with fleas in order to acquire large quantities of disease-carrying fleas for the purposes of studying the viability of germ warfare[citation needed].

    Plague fleas, infected clothing, and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed around 400,000 Chinese civilians.[1] Tularemia was tested on Chinese civilians.[21]

    Unit 731 and its affiliated units (Unit 1644, Unit 100 et cetera) were involved in research, development, and experimental deployment of epidemic-creating biowarfare weapons in assaults against the Chinese populace (both civilian and military) throughout World War II. Plague-infested fleas, bred in the laboratories of Unit 731 and Unit 1644, were spread by low-flying airplanes upon Chinese cities, coastal Ningbo in 1940, and Changde, Hunan Province, in 1941. This military aerial spraying killed thousands of people with bubonic plague epidemics.[22]

    Weapons testing

    Human targets were used to test grenades positioned at various distances and in different positions. Flame throwers were tested on humans. Humans were tied to stakes and used as targets to test germ-releasing bombs, chemical weapons, and explosive bombs.[23][24]

    Other experiments

    In other tests, subjects were deprived of food and water to determine the length of time until death; placed into high-pressure chambers until death; experimented upon to determine the relationship between temperature, burns, and human survival; placed into centrifuges and spun until death; injected with animal blood; exposed to lethal doses of x-rays; subjected to various chemical weapons inside gas chambers; injected with sea water to determine if it could be a substitute for saline; and burned or buried alive.[25]

    Biological warfare

    Japanese scientists performed tests on prisoners with plague, cholera, smallpox, botulism, and other diseases.[26] This research led to the development of the defoliation bacilli bomb and the flea bomb used to spread the bubonic plague.[27] Some of these bombs were designed with ceramic (porcelain) shells, an idea proposed by Ishii in 1938.

    These bombs enabled Japanese soldiers to launch biological attacks, infecting agriculture, reservoirs, wells, and other areas with anthrax, plague-carrier fleas, typhoid, dysentery, cholera, and other deadly pathogens. During biological bomb experiments, scientists dressed in protective suits would examine the dying victims. Infected food supplies and clothing were dropped by airplane into areas of China not occupied by Japanese forces. In addition, poisoned food and candies were given out to unsuspecting victims and children, and the results examined.

    In 2002, Changde, China, site of the flea spraying attack, held an “International Symposium on the Crimes of Bacteriological Warfare” which estimated that at least 580,000 people died as a result of the attack.[28] The historian Sheldon Harris claims that 200,000 died.[29] In addition to Chinese casualties, 1,700 Japanese in Chekiang were killed by their own biological weapons while attempting to unleash the biological agent, which evidences serious issues with distribution.[2]

    Known unit members
    Lieutenant General Shirō Ishii
    Lieutenant Colonel Ryoichi Naito, founder of the pharmaceutical company Green Cross
    Masaji Kitano
    Yoshio Shinozuka
    Yasuji Kaneko

    Divisions

    Unit 731 was divided into eight divisions:
    Division 1: Research on bubonic plague, cholera, anthrax, typhoid and tuberculosis using live human subjects. For this purpose, a prison was constructed to contain around three to four hundred people.
    Division 2: Research for biological weapons used in the field, in particular the production of devices to spread germs and parasites.
    Division 3: Production of shells containing biological agents. Stationed in Harbin.
    Division 4: Production of other miscellaneous agents.
    Division 5: Training of personnel.
    Divisions 6–8: Equipment, medical and administrative units.

    Facilities

    One of the buildings is open to visitors
    The Unit 731 complex covered six square kilometers and consisted of more than 150 buildings. The design of the facilities made them hard to destroy by bombing. The complex contained various factories. It had around 4,500 containers to be used to raise fleas, six cauldrons to produce various chemicals, and around 1,800 containers to produce biological agents. Approximately 30 kg of bubonic plague bacteria could be produced in several days.

    Some of Unit 731′s satellite facilities are in use by various Chinese industrial concerns. A portion has been preserved and is open to visitors as a War Crimes Museum.

    Shinjuku

    A medical school and research facility belonging to Unit 731 operated in Shinjuku, Tokyo during World War II. In 2006, Toyo Ishii—a nurse who worked at the school during the war—revealed that she had helped bury bodies and pieces of bodies on the school’s grounds shortly after Japan’s surrender in 1945. In response, in February 2011 the Ministry of Health began to excavate the site.[30]

    China requested DNA samples from any human remains discovered at the site. The Japanese government—which has never officially acknowledged the existence of Unit 731—rejected the request.[31]

    Guangzhou

    The related Unit 8604 was operated by the Japanese Southern China Area Army and stationed at Guangzhou, known historically as Canton or Kwangchow. This installation conducted human experimentation in food and water deprivation as well as water-borne typhus. According to postwar testimony, this facility served as the main rat breeding farm for the medical units to provide them with bubonic plague vectors for experiments.[32]

    Related units

    Unit 731 was part of the Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department which dealt with contagious disease and water supply generally. Some have argued that the work of other units in this department was also related to Unit 731.

    Mukden POW camp

    According to Maj. Robert Peaty, of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, who was the senior British officer at Mukden, a prisoner-of-war camp 350 miles from Pingfan, doctors from Unit 731 administered the regular injections of infectious diseases, disguised as harmless vaccinations, which eventually killed 186 Americans.[1]

    Surrender and immunity

    Information sign at the site today.
    Operations and experiments continued until the end of the war. Ishii had wanted to use biological weapons in the Pacific conflict since May 1944, but his attempts were repeatedly snubbed.

    Destruction of evidence

    With the Russian invasion of Manchukuo and Mengjiang in August 1945, the unit had to abandon their work in haste. The members and their families fled to Japan.

    Ishii ordered every member of the group “to take the secret to the grave”, threatening to find them if they failed, and prohibiting any of them from going into public work back in Japan. Potassium cyanide vials were issued for use in the event that the remaining personnel were captured.[1]

    Skeleton crews of Ishii’s Japanese troops blew the compound up in the final days of the war to destroy evidence of their activities, but most were so well constructed that they survived somewhat intact.

    American grant of immunity

    After Imperial Japan surrendered to the Allies in 1945, Douglas MacArthur became the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers, rebuilding Japan during the Allied occupation. MacArthur secretly granted immunity to the physicians of Unit 731, including their leader, in exchange for providing America, but not the other wartime allies, with their research on biological warfare.[10] American occupation authorities monitored the activities of former unit members, including reading and censoring their mail.[33] The U.S. believed that the research data was valuable. The U.S. did not want other nations, particularly the Soviet Union, to acquire data on biological weapons.[34]

    The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal heard only one reference to Japanese experiments with “poisonous serums” on Chinese civilians. This took place in August 1946 and was instigated by David Sutton, assistant to the Chinese prosecutor. The Japanese defense counselor argued that the claim was vague and uncorroborated and it was dismissed by the tribunal president, Sir William Webb, for lack of evidence. The subject was not pursued further by Sutton, who was likely aware of Unit 731′s activities. His reference to it at the trial is believed to have been accidental.

    Separate Soviet trials

    Although publicly silent on the issue at the Tokyo Trials, the Soviet Union pursued the case and prosecuted twelve top military leaders and scientists from Unit 731 and its affiliated biological-war prisons Unit 1644 in Nanjing, and Unit 100 in Changchun, in the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials. Included among those prosecuted for war crimes including germ warfare was General Otozō Yamada, the commander-in-chief of the million-man Kwantung Army occupying Manchuria.

    The trial of those captured Japanese perpetrators was held in Khabarovsk in December 1949. A lengthy partial transcript of the trial proceedings was published in different languages the following year by a Moscow foreign languages press, including an English language edition.[35] The lead prosecuting attorney at the Khabarovsk trial was Lev Smirnov, who had been one of the top Soviet prosecutors at the Nuremberg Trials. The Japanese doctors and army commanders who had perpetrated the Unit 731 experiments received sentences from the Khabarovsk court ranging from two to 25 years in a Siberian labor camp. The Americans refused to acknowledge the trials, branding them communist propaganda.[36]

    After World War II, the Soviet Union built a biological weapons facility in Sverdlovsk using documentation captured from Unit 731 in Manchuria.[37]

    After World War II

    Official silence under Occupation

    As above, under the American occupation the members of Unit 731 and other experimental units were allowed to go free. One graduate of Unit 1644, Masami Kitaoka, continued to do experiments on unwilling Japanese subjects from 1947 to 1956 while working for the National Institute of Health Sciences. He infected prisoners with rickettsia and mental health patients with typhus.[38]

    Post-Occupation Japanese media coverage and debate

    Japanese discussions of Unit 731′s activity began in the 1950s, after the end of the American occupation of Japan. In 1952, human experiments carried out in Nagoya City Pediatric Hospital, which resulted in 1 death, were publicly tied to former members of Unit 731.[39] Later in that decade, journalists suspected that the murders attributed by the government to Sadamichi Hirasawa were actually carried out by members of Unit 731. In 1958, Japanese author Shusaku Endo published the book The Sea and Poison about human experimentation, which is thought to have been based on a real incident.

    The author Morimura Seiichi published the book The Devil’s Gluttony (悪魔の飽食) in 1981, followed by The Devil’s Gluttony: A Sequel in 1983. This purported to reveal the “true” operations of Unit 731, but actually confused them with that of Unit 100, and falsely used unrelated photos attributing them to Unit 731, which raised questions about its reliability.[40]

    Also in 1981 appeared the first direct testimony of human vivisection in China, by Ken Yuasa. Since then many more in-depth testimonies have appeared in Japanese. The 2001 documentary Japanese Devils was composed largely of interviews with 14 members of Unit 731 who had been taken as prisoners by China and later released. All those interviewed, including Yuasa, had once been sentenced to death in China for war crimes, but had been released after extensive “re-education” treatment, which places public doubt on their testimonies.[41]

    Official government response in Japan

    See also: List of war apology statements issued by Japan

    Since the end of the US Occupation, the Japanese government has repeatedly apologized for its prewar behavior in general, but specific apologies and indemnities are determined on the basis of bilateral determination that crimes occurred, which requires a high standard of evidence. Unit 731 presents a special problem, since unlike Nazi human experimentation which is extremely well documented, the activities of Unit 731 are known only from the testimonies of former unit members, and testimony cannot be employed to determine indemnity in this way.

    Japanese history textbooks usually contain references to Unit 731, but do not go into detail about allegations, in accordance with this principle.[42][43] Saburo Ienaga’s New History of Japan included a detailed description, based on officers’ testimony. The Ministry for Education attempted to remove this passage from his textbook before it was taught in public schools, on the basis that the testimony was insufficient. The Supreme Court of Japan ruled in 1997 that the testimony was indeed sufficient and that requiring it to be removed was an illegal violation of freedom of speech.[44]

    In 1997, the international lawyer Kōnen Tsuchiya filed a class action suit against the Japanese government demanding reparations for the actions of Unit 731, using evidence filed by Rikkyo University professor Makoto Ueda. All court levels found that the suit was baseless. No findings of fact were made about the existence of human experimentation, but the decision of the court was that reparations are determined by international treaties and not by local court cases.

    In October 2003, the Prime Minister of Japan responded to an inquiry from a member of the House of Representatives of Japan stating that, while the current Japanese government does not possess any records related to Unit 731, they recognize the gravity of the matter and will publicize any records that are located in the future.[45]

    Abroad

    The Chinese film Men Behind the Sun, directed by Tun Fei Mou in 1988, is a graphic film about the atrocities committed by Unit 731, as is the Russian film Philosophy of a Knife, directed by Andrey Iskanov and released in 2008.

    James T. Hong produced a 2007 documentary about Unit 731 told from the Chinese and Japanese sides called 731: Two Versions of Hell.[46]

    Bruce Dickinson’s 1994 CD-single Tears of the Dragon contains a song entitled “The breeding house” describing the atrocities commited by Unit 731 and the immunity granted by the Americans to the physicians of the Unit.

    American thrash metal band Slayer’s 2009 album World Painted Blood contains a song entitled “Unit 731″ describing the events and atrocities that occurred at Unit 731.

    The X-Files episode “731″ was a reference to Unit 731, in which former members secretly continue their experiments on humans under control of a covert U.S. government agency.

    ReGenesis episode “Let it burn” (Season 3, episode 9) mentions Unit 731 after it was discovered outbreaks of anthrax and glanders was from World War 2 Japan.

  • watergate71

    sorry. please allow me to post. they have redirected and spoofed my access to all major sites and all my accounts. please help me find a way to expose the truth. my life and my kid’s life depend on it.

    they have escalated the attacks to the point of no return. i am trying the last route i have to save my kid before they manage to silence me.

  • watergate71

    they have exchanged experimental babies as part of the experiment and the children know nothing about it. find influx of forced adoption cases, the date and wwII history of that place.

    that will also be the place where there are a lot of electronic harassment victims.

    Find the TREES, find the human experiment “LOGS” (see shiro ishii definition of logs.

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