Rick Perry is running for president

Texas governor Rick Perry has announced that he running for president.  As the longest-serving governor of a big state, Perry comes with lots of executive experience, with a strong  record of economic growth and job creation.  He is an open evangelical Christian, going so far as to lead the prayer and preach from the Bible at a recent religious rally.  The Tea Party likes him, as do business interests and the Republican establishment.

Is he someone you could support?  (I’d like to hear from Texans about what kind of governor he is.)

It’s official, if familiar: Perry’s in.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • MMc

    I hope my conservative friends will carefully investigate Rick Perry before throwing their support to him. Although he is being pushed by many groups, he is not a true conservative. What conservative would issue an executive order mandating that Texas girls receive HPV vaccine? push the take-over of Texas land for the Trans-Texas Corridor? attend Bildenberg in 2007? serve as Al Gore’s 1988 campaign chairman for Texas? He recently promoted a prayer event in Houston, but check out his own record of charitable giving:
    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/new/7607414.html
    Perry is a poor debater. That’s why he’s waited so long to announce. The real Tea Party candidate in last year’s governor’s race was Debra Medina. I’m a Texan who has watched Rick Perry through the years. He talks like a conservative when the cameras are on, but if you watch what he actually accomplishes, he is a disappointment. In Texas, we call this “All hat and no cattle.”

  • MMc

    I hope my conservative friends will carefully investigate Rick Perry before throwing their support to him. Although he is being pushed by many groups, he is not a true conservative. What conservative would issue an executive order mandating that Texas girls receive HPV vaccine? push the take-over of Texas land for the Trans-Texas Corridor? attend Bildenberg in 2007? serve as Al Gore’s 1988 campaign chairman for Texas? He recently promoted a prayer event in Houston, but check out his own record of charitable giving:
    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/new/7607414.html
    Perry is a poor debater. That’s why he’s waited so long to announce. The real Tea Party candidate in last year’s governor’s race was Debra Medina. I’m a Texan who has watched Rick Perry through the years. He talks like a conservative when the cameras are on, but if you watch what he actually accomplishes, he is a disappointment. In Texas, we call this “All hat and no cattle.”

  • MMc
  • MMc
  • helen

    Texas ranks near the bottom in education. Despite that, a disproportionate share of the budget cuts over the last two legislative sessions have fallen on education.
    Perry thinks education can be done even cheaper.
    End of comment on Perry from here.

  • helen

    Texas ranks near the bottom in education. Despite that, a disproportionate share of the budget cuts over the last two legislative sessions have fallen on education.
    Perry thinks education can be done even cheaper.
    End of comment on Perry from here.

  • Dave (in Michigan)

    I saw a show about a guy who was executed in Texas. I realize the show was slanted but it seemed to me that there was some good evidence that he didn’t set the fire that killed his kids. Rick Perry not only refused to step in, but his attitude after the execution was scary. He seemed to enjoy it a little too much. That has turned me against considering him for president. Lots of other things too as was mentioned by MMc above and by others.

  • Dave (in Michigan)

    I saw a show about a guy who was executed in Texas. I realize the show was slanted but it seemed to me that there was some good evidence that he didn’t set the fire that killed his kids. Rick Perry not only refused to step in, but his attitude after the execution was scary. He seemed to enjoy it a little too much. That has turned me against considering him for president. Lots of other things too as was mentioned by MMc above and by others.

  • Carl Vehse

    The liberal columnist, Gary Scharrer, of the liberal newspaper, the Houston Chronicle, and of course the Austin Unamerican-Statesman do agree with the Free Republic consensus that Rick Perry is not a true conservative. Of course anything would be better than Traitorbama.

    In the meantime, it will be interesting to see how Texan Rick Perry demonstrates his qualities to serve as a Vice-Presidential running mate to Alaskan Sarah Palin.

  • Carl Vehse

    The liberal columnist, Gary Scharrer, of the liberal newspaper, the Houston Chronicle, and of course the Austin Unamerican-Statesman do agree with the Free Republic consensus that Rick Perry is not a true conservative. Of course anything would be better than Traitorbama.

    In the meantime, it will be interesting to see how Texan Rick Perry demonstrates his qualities to serve as a Vice-Presidential running mate to Alaskan Sarah Palin.

  • Cincinnatus
  • Cincinnatus
  • Tom Hering
  • Tom Hering
  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Why is it that people are always concerned about the backgound and qualifications of Republicans…but Democrats can be people who have never run a business or had executive experience and associated with convicted domestic terrorists…or what not?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Why is it that people are always concerned about the backgound and qualifications of Republicans…but Democrats can be people who have never run a business or had executive experience and associated with convicted domestic terrorists…or what not?

  • Tom Hering

    Steve Martin @ 8, maybe Republicans are so successful at selling themselves as just another average gal or guy, it naturally raises questions about their qualifications for an extraordinary job?

  • Tom Hering

    Steve Martin @ 8, maybe Republicans are so successful at selling themselves as just another average gal or guy, it naturally raises questions about their qualifications for an extraordinary job?

  • Rose

    MMc: Thanks, that was helpful. I’ve been wondering why Kay Bailey Hutchinson ran against Perry for Governor. Do you know whether Bush’s friends backed Hutchinson or Perry?

  • Rose

    MMc: Thanks, that was helpful. I’ve been wondering why Kay Bailey Hutchinson ran against Perry for Governor. Do you know whether Bush’s friends backed Hutchinson or Perry?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Regarding Perry, he’s done some good things (like Helen notes, cutting government school funding increases is wonderful), some bad things (HPV vaccine mandate, scholarships for illegal immigrants), but all in all, like all of the other GOP candidates, he’s a LOT better than the clown we have in the White House right now.

    Speaking of which, Tom, why doesn’t the media devote some time to the obvious “natural questions” about him? It’s not like there wasn’t evidence that the man was so out of touch that his “deficit reduction” plan would get shot down 97-1 in the Senate, as it did.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Regarding Perry, he’s done some good things (like Helen notes, cutting government school funding increases is wonderful), some bad things (HPV vaccine mandate, scholarships for illegal immigrants), but all in all, like all of the other GOP candidates, he’s a LOT better than the clown we have in the White House right now.

    Speaking of which, Tom, why doesn’t the media devote some time to the obvious “natural questions” about him? It’s not like there wasn’t evidence that the man was so out of touch that his “deficit reduction” plan would get shot down 97-1 in the Senate, as it did.

  • Tom Hering

    bike @ 11, the Senate is a measure of being in touch? What happened to the standard conservative line about Washington being out of touch?

  • Tom Hering

    bike @ 11, the Senate is a measure of being in touch? What happened to the standard conservative line about Washington being out of touch?

  • helen

    Cincinnatus,
    I do not believe that dropout rate.
    Locally, I have read articles that strongly suggest Texas is expert in “transfers” that somehow never end up in another school.

    Do you live in Texas and have kids in the public schools, bikebubba?
    Those I know, who do both, are not so cheerful about the educational spending cuts.

  • helen

    Cincinnatus,
    I do not believe that dropout rate.
    Locally, I have read articles that strongly suggest Texas is expert in “transfers” that somehow never end up in another school.

    Do you live in Texas and have kids in the public schools, bikebubba?
    Those I know, who do both, are not so cheerful about the educational spending cuts.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Rick Perry – meh
    Better than the current occupant of the White House – by a mile
    Public Education funding in Texas – a mess, but it has been for a long time and will be long after Rick Perry is gone. (Gee, wasn’t the state lottery supposed to solve all of these problems?) It’s a matter of priorities. We always seem to have money to build $60MM football stadiums (Allen ISD – and yes I know that’s not state funding it’s local bond funding so spare me that observation, but it still points out that voters come up with money for what they want). Texas public schools are about par for the course. Some districts are great, others not so much. I am not sure that the governor should get the credit or blame for much of this in any state. By the way, education spending in Texas – even adjusted for inflation on a per pupil basis is way up (~30%) over the 10 years Perry has been governor, it just got cut back a bit this past legislative session. So I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who have the vapors about the “cuts in education”.
    As a whole, I am not a big Perry fan, but mainly because he just strikes me as a standard issue politician with a gift for fundraising and pandering to key constituencies.
    BTW, I am a lifelong resident of Texas – in case I didn’t mention that earlier.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Rick Perry – meh
    Better than the current occupant of the White House – by a mile
    Public Education funding in Texas – a mess, but it has been for a long time and will be long after Rick Perry is gone. (Gee, wasn’t the state lottery supposed to solve all of these problems?) It’s a matter of priorities. We always seem to have money to build $60MM football stadiums (Allen ISD – and yes I know that’s not state funding it’s local bond funding so spare me that observation, but it still points out that voters come up with money for what they want). Texas public schools are about par for the course. Some districts are great, others not so much. I am not sure that the governor should get the credit or blame for much of this in any state. By the way, education spending in Texas – even adjusted for inflation on a per pupil basis is way up (~30%) over the 10 years Perry has been governor, it just got cut back a bit this past legislative session. So I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who have the vapors about the “cuts in education”.
    As a whole, I am not a big Perry fan, but mainly because he just strikes me as a standard issue politician with a gift for fundraising and pandering to key constituencies.
    BTW, I am a lifelong resident of Texas – in case I didn’t mention that earlier.

  • Cincinnatus

    helen: You can choose to believe or disbelieve the statistics I’ve provided, but put up or shut up. You can’t disprove an article by noting cryptically that you’ve read other (unnamed) articles that “strongly suggest” an indeterminate statistic that sounds like it can’t even be demonstrated anyway.

    I’m not arguing for or against Perry. But the facts available suggest that a common canard–”Texas has terrible public schools, and that’s the cost of fiscal conservatism!”–is simply false. As the data I presented show, Texas is actually better (by contemporary standards, which are admittedly blinkered) at educating all racial groups individually, including whites, than Wisconsin, a state which routinely uses its allegedly “phenomenal” educational outcomes for whites to justify truly exorbitant property taxes and union intransigence.

    N.B. I originally discovered this article back when Wisconsin teachers’ unions were insisting that de-fanging their power would lead to a dramatic decline in the quality of public education in the state. Texas teachers are not unionized.

  • Cincinnatus

    helen: You can choose to believe or disbelieve the statistics I’ve provided, but put up or shut up. You can’t disprove an article by noting cryptically that you’ve read other (unnamed) articles that “strongly suggest” an indeterminate statistic that sounds like it can’t even be demonstrated anyway.

    I’m not arguing for or against Perry. But the facts available suggest that a common canard–”Texas has terrible public schools, and that’s the cost of fiscal conservatism!”–is simply false. As the data I presented show, Texas is actually better (by contemporary standards, which are admittedly blinkered) at educating all racial groups individually, including whites, than Wisconsin, a state which routinely uses its allegedly “phenomenal” educational outcomes for whites to justify truly exorbitant property taxes and union intransigence.

    N.B. I originally discovered this article back when Wisconsin teachers’ unions were insisting that de-fanging their power would lead to a dramatic decline in the quality of public education in the state. Texas teachers are not unionized.

  • michael henry

    Governor Perry supports selective abortion, ie rape, etc. I could support no one in any position who supports abortion in any shape, form or fashion.

  • michael henry

    Governor Perry supports selective abortion, ie rape, etc. I could support no one in any position who supports abortion in any shape, form or fashion.

  • SKPeterson

    Does anyone know if the “Robin Hood” law is still in effect in Texas? This was the bill to equilibrate educational spending across districts in the state. But as Steve B. puts it @ 14 – educational spending in Texas is a function of local priorities. Many school districts will prefer to put money in their sports programs than in increasing funding for school libraries. This often has as much to do with civic pride and social cohesion as it anything, so be it. This does not necessarily result in a dismal educational future for students in those districts.

    I have seen studies that associate the lower health outcomes for children in Texas to the prevalence of higher illegal immigrant populations in the state. For example, tuberculosis is now on the rise in many Texas urban centers due to influxes of immigrants from south of the border (not necessarily Mexican, btw – Texas gets lots of Guatemalan, Salvadoran and Honduran immigrants in the mix). I would expect that controlling for this population in looking at statistics for children’s health, childhood poverty, and children with insurance, would yield results in line with the educational outcomes noted in the link Cincinnatus provided @ 6.

    Now, none of this is to credit or discredit Perry and his presidential aspirations, but simply to clarify that the use of dubious statistics to bolster or diminish a candidates electoral prospects should be discounted. I have the feeling that we are headed for another election in which we will not be voting for the “best” but for the “least worst.”

  • SKPeterson

    Does anyone know if the “Robin Hood” law is still in effect in Texas? This was the bill to equilibrate educational spending across districts in the state. But as Steve B. puts it @ 14 – educational spending in Texas is a function of local priorities. Many school districts will prefer to put money in their sports programs than in increasing funding for school libraries. This often has as much to do with civic pride and social cohesion as it anything, so be it. This does not necessarily result in a dismal educational future for students in those districts.

    I have seen studies that associate the lower health outcomes for children in Texas to the prevalence of higher illegal immigrant populations in the state. For example, tuberculosis is now on the rise in many Texas urban centers due to influxes of immigrants from south of the border (not necessarily Mexican, btw – Texas gets lots of Guatemalan, Salvadoran and Honduran immigrants in the mix). I would expect that controlling for this population in looking at statistics for children’s health, childhood poverty, and children with insurance, would yield results in line with the educational outcomes noted in the link Cincinnatus provided @ 6.

    Now, none of this is to credit or discredit Perry and his presidential aspirations, but simply to clarify that the use of dubious statistics to bolster or diminish a candidates electoral prospects should be discounted. I have the feeling that we are headed for another election in which we will not be voting for the “best” but for the “least worst.”

  • Cincinnatus

    Isn’t that an apt characterization of every national election, SKP?

  • Cincinnatus

    Isn’t that an apt characterization of every national election, SKP?

  • Jon

    Why are American Christians so tolerant of politicians (Perry, Bachmann, etc.) who baldly announce that God told them to run against each other for the same office? Why isn’t that blasphemy?

  • Jon

    Why are American Christians so tolerant of politicians (Perry, Bachmann, etc.) who baldly announce that God told them to run against each other for the same office? Why isn’t that blasphemy?

  • Cincinnatus

    Jon,

    Granted. But let’s be charitable for a moment. While I can’t speak for all the candidates, I seldom get the impression that any of them are claiming that God literally spoke to them in a dream proclaiming that it was their destiny to win the office of President. Rather–and maybe I’m being too charitable–it merely seems to be an invocation of a vocational sense of purpose. In either case, what is fundamentally problematic about God’s allegedly calling different candidates to run against each other? How is this evidence against God or against the cognitive abilities of Christians? Isn’t it the case that, rightly understood, the vocation of presidential candidate involves more than simply beating the other guys? If done rightly, it would seem that being a presidential candidate is about communicating a political message that is arguably quite important to the way in which we conduct our collective political life. Whether or not the candidate “wins” (beats God’s other chosen one?), some good is served.

  • Cincinnatus

    Jon,

    Granted. But let’s be charitable for a moment. While I can’t speak for all the candidates, I seldom get the impression that any of them are claiming that God literally spoke to them in a dream proclaiming that it was their destiny to win the office of President. Rather–and maybe I’m being too charitable–it merely seems to be an invocation of a vocational sense of purpose. In either case, what is fundamentally problematic about God’s allegedly calling different candidates to run against each other? How is this evidence against God or against the cognitive abilities of Christians? Isn’t it the case that, rightly understood, the vocation of presidential candidate involves more than simply beating the other guys? If done rightly, it would seem that being a presidential candidate is about communicating a political message that is arguably quite important to the way in which we conduct our collective political life. Whether or not the candidate “wins” (beats God’s other chosen one?), some good is served.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Jon @19
    Did I miss where Bachmann, Perry or anyone else said the “God told them to run”?
    Religious pandering is not unusual in American politics and it isn’t limited to one side of the aisle. But I don’t recall any candidate in recent memory (Pat Robertson in 1988? but even then I don’t think he explicitly stated it as such) say “God told them to run” for President or any other prominent office.
    Correct me if I’m wrong (and provide links to the appropriate corrections) or correct yours statement.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Jon @19
    Did I miss where Bachmann, Perry or anyone else said the “God told them to run”?
    Religious pandering is not unusual in American politics and it isn’t limited to one side of the aisle. But I don’t recall any candidate in recent memory (Pat Robertson in 1988? but even then I don’t think he explicitly stated it as such) say “God told them to run” for President or any other prominent office.
    Correct me if I’m wrong (and provide links to the appropriate corrections) or correct yours statement.

  • Cincinnatus

    Steve@21: I think Bachmann and Herman Cain may have mentioned something to that effect. Perry has not, so far as I am aware.

  • Cincinnatus

    Steve@21: I think Bachmann and Herman Cain may have mentioned something to that effect. Perry has not, so far as I am aware.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Cincinnatus @22
    I don’t think so. They may have referred to a sense of “calling” or “duty”. But do you think that any of them could have stated something that clearly or even hinted very strongly at it without it being trumpeted from every media outlet in America? Particularly with Bachmann, whose candidacy seems to have at least a bit of traction/momentum? Wouldn’t we have all sorts of pundits having the vapors about “theocracy” in America?
    I just think that Jon’s statement is false on its face. There have been no ‘bald announcements” of this type at all.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Cincinnatus @22
    I don’t think so. They may have referred to a sense of “calling” or “duty”. But do you think that any of them could have stated something that clearly or even hinted very strongly at it without it being trumpeted from every media outlet in America? Particularly with Bachmann, whose candidacy seems to have at least a bit of traction/momentum? Wouldn’t we have all sorts of pundits having the vapors about “theocracy” in America?
    I just think that Jon’s statement is false on its face. There have been no ‘bald announcements” of this type at all.

  • Cincinnatus
  • Cincinnatus
  • Steve Billingsley

    Ask and ye shall receive. Now I know why I haven’t liked Bachmann to begin with. (Santorum I have paid little attention to, or Cain for that matter as I see them having no shot).

    This takes religious pandering to a new height/depth. I stand corrected.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Ask and ye shall receive. Now I know why I haven’t liked Bachmann to begin with. (Santorum I have paid little attention to, or Cain for that matter as I see them having no shot).

    This takes religious pandering to a new height/depth. I stand corrected.

  • Joe

    Evangelicals correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think these statements are any different than when an Evangelical type says, “I felt called to adopt my son” or “God called me to work as a social worker.”

    I don’t get the sense that these people are saying that God audibly spoke to them and said, “run for president.” Rather they prayed about the decision and left with the conviction that they should run.

    Now, I am done defending all three of these folks as I don’t want any of them to win.

  • Joe

    Evangelicals correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think these statements are any different than when an Evangelical type says, “I felt called to adopt my son” or “God called me to work as a social worker.”

    I don’t get the sense that these people are saying that God audibly spoke to them and said, “run for president.” Rather they prayed about the decision and left with the conviction that they should run.

    Now, I am done defending all three of these folks as I don’t want any of them to win.

  • Dave (in Michigan)

    I wouldn’t worry about a few quotes from a goof ball site like “readersupportednews.com”.

  • Dave (in Michigan)

    I wouldn’t worry about a few quotes from a goof ball site like “readersupportednews.com”.

  • SKPeterson

    I have felt God calling me to declare all presidential candidates anathema.

  • SKPeterson

    I have felt God calling me to declare all presidential candidates anathema.

  • DonS

    Herman Cain — ” “You want to know why? God said, ‘Not yet Herman,’” Cain told the crowd. “God said, ‘Not yet. I’ve got something else for you to do.’ And it might be to become the president of the United States of America.””

    “As for Santorum, his wife, Karen Santorum told CBN’s David Brody in May about her husband’s decision to run for president, “It really boils down to God’s will. What is it that God wants? … We have prayed a lot about this decision, and we believe with all our hearts that this is what God wants.””

    “Michele Bachmann . . . told World Net Daily in 2009, she would never run without God’s personal endorsement:
    “If I felt that’s what the Lord was calling me to do, I would do it,” she answered. “When I have sensed that the Lord is calling me to do something, I’ve said yes to it. But I will not seek a higher office if God is not calling me to do it. That’s really my standard.
    “If I am called to serve in that realm I would serve,” she concluded, “but if I am not called, I wouldn’t do it.””

    The above are the three candidate statements regarding their calling to run for office. I don’t see anything wrong with any of them. We pray before we make big life decisions, and we move ahead if we feel the call to do so. None of them said they were called to be president, just to run.

    Non-issue.

  • DonS

    Herman Cain — ” “You want to know why? God said, ‘Not yet Herman,’” Cain told the crowd. “God said, ‘Not yet. I’ve got something else for you to do.’ And it might be to become the president of the United States of America.””

    “As for Santorum, his wife, Karen Santorum told CBN’s David Brody in May about her husband’s decision to run for president, “It really boils down to God’s will. What is it that God wants? … We have prayed a lot about this decision, and we believe with all our hearts that this is what God wants.””

    “Michele Bachmann . . . told World Net Daily in 2009, she would never run without God’s personal endorsement:
    “If I felt that’s what the Lord was calling me to do, I would do it,” she answered. “When I have sensed that the Lord is calling me to do something, I’ve said yes to it. But I will not seek a higher office if God is not calling me to do it. That’s really my standard.
    “If I am called to serve in that realm I would serve,” she concluded, “but if I am not called, I wouldn’t do it.””

    The above are the three candidate statements regarding their calling to run for office. I don’t see anything wrong with any of them. We pray before we make big life decisions, and we move ahead if we feel the call to do so. None of them said they were called to be president, just to run.

    Non-issue.

  • DonS

    As for the topic of the original post, I’m glad Rick Perry is entering the race. More choice is good, and I am not enamored with any of the candidates now in the race, though I would vote for any of them in a second to avoid having Obama serve a second term.

    Perry was a Democrat, once upon a time, as were many southerners. I do get the sense that he is not as conservative as his rhetoric, but that’s what a campaign is for, to give us all time to examine the candidate records and hopefully make an intelligent decision.

  • DonS

    As for the topic of the original post, I’m glad Rick Perry is entering the race. More choice is good, and I am not enamored with any of the candidates now in the race, though I would vote for any of them in a second to avoid having Obama serve a second term.

    Perry was a Democrat, once upon a time, as were many southerners. I do get the sense that he is not as conservative as his rhetoric, but that’s what a campaign is for, to give us all time to examine the candidate records and hopefully make an intelligent decision.

  • Jon

    @29 DonS, I agree that it’s a “non issue” because in evangelical circles, “God called me to do X” means only “I felt like doing X.” If I agree with what you feel like doing, then I agree God called you.

    “But since the devil’s bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she’s wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil’s greatest whore.” M Luther.

  • Jon

    @29 DonS, I agree that it’s a “non issue” because in evangelical circles, “God called me to do X” means only “I felt like doing X.” If I agree with what you feel like doing, then I agree God called you.

    “But since the devil’s bride, Reason, that pretty whore, comes in and thinks she’s wise, and what she says, what she thinks, is from the Holy Spirit, who can help us, then? Not judges, not doctors, no king or emperor, because [reason] is the Devil’s greatest whore.” M Luther.

  • DonS

    Well, Jon @ 31, how in the heck do you know that, in these particular instances, “God called me to do X” means only “I felt like doing X.””? You seem to be indiscriminately disparaging the statements of these people, whom you do not know, that they prayed and sought God’s guidance, and that they received His guidance, regarding their respective vocations. What is your basis for so doing?

    Santorum is not evangelical — he is Catholic, by the way. All the more indication that you are eminently unqualified to make the heart judgments you have just indiscriminately made.

  • DonS

    Well, Jon @ 31, how in the heck do you know that, in these particular instances, “God called me to do X” means only “I felt like doing X.””? You seem to be indiscriminately disparaging the statements of these people, whom you do not know, that they prayed and sought God’s guidance, and that they received His guidance, regarding their respective vocations. What is your basis for so doing?

    Santorum is not evangelical — he is Catholic, by the way. All the more indication that you are eminently unqualified to make the heart judgments you have just indiscriminately made.

  • Jon

    C’mon, DonS. It’s pious claptrap.
    How the heck do you know that God really called these people to run against each other for the same office? Because they said so? If I said that God led me to reject virtually all you say, does that make it so? Santorum is Catholic, a fact all know, but that doesn’t stop him from speaking ‘evangelical.’

  • Jon

    C’mon, DonS. It’s pious claptrap.
    How the heck do you know that God really called these people to run against each other for the same office? Because they said so? If I said that God led me to reject virtually all you say, does that make it so? Santorum is Catholic, a fact all know, but that doesn’t stop him from speaking ‘evangelical.’

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Has he announced, announced that he’s going to announce, announced that he’s going to announce that he’s going to announce, or hinted at the possibility of him announcing that he’s going to announce that he’s going to announce?

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Has he announced, announced that he’s going to announce, announced that he’s going to announce that he’s going to announce, or hinted at the possibility of him announcing that he’s going to announce that he’s going to announce?

  • DonS

    Jon @ 33: If someone says that they prayed, and believe the Lord is calling them to take a certain action, and that action does not contradict Scripture, then it is no place of mine, particularly if I do not know them, to judge their hearts, declare their statements “pious claptrap”, and further declare that their statement really means that they are using God to justify what they feel like doing.

  • DonS

    Jon @ 33: If someone says that they prayed, and believe the Lord is calling them to take a certain action, and that action does not contradict Scripture, then it is no place of mine, particularly if I do not know them, to judge their hearts, declare their statements “pious claptrap”, and further declare that their statement really means that they are using God to justify what they feel like doing.

  • DonS

    Jon @ 33: I hit “submit” before I was done. “If I said that God led me to reject virtually all you say, does that make it so?” — No. It doesn’t make it so. But it also doesn’t make it not so. And the problem is, we are human and thus incapable of judging the hearts of others.

    Therefore, we leave the truth of the statement up to God — He will judge the hearts of these candidates and yours and mine as well.

  • DonS

    Jon @ 33: I hit “submit” before I was done. “If I said that God led me to reject virtually all you say, does that make it so?” — No. It doesn’t make it so. But it also doesn’t make it not so. And the problem is, we are human and thus incapable of judging the hearts of others.

    Therefore, we leave the truth of the statement up to God — He will judge the hearts of these candidates and yours and mine as well.

  • katy

    I certainly do not agree with Ms. Posner’s or Mr. Wilder’s political views, but here’s some interesting information related to Perry being “called/appointed by God.” Even if he does not think so, some other folks do, and I can see a politician being tempted to let those folks think what they will, just to get their vote.

    Of course, “called by God” and “destined” can be expressed with different words, including the last elections’ “don’t stand in the way of history!” or “Do you want to be the one who voted against history?” (The last doesn’t make logical sense at all, but I had quite a few people ask me that)

    The articles:

    https://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/rick-perrys-army-of-god

    http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/sarahposner/4874/rick_perry_and_the_new_apostolic_reformation/

  • katy

    I certainly do not agree with Ms. Posner’s or Mr. Wilder’s political views, but here’s some interesting information related to Perry being “called/appointed by God.” Even if he does not think so, some other folks do, and I can see a politician being tempted to let those folks think what they will, just to get their vote.

    Of course, “called by God” and “destined” can be expressed with different words, including the last elections’ “don’t stand in the way of history!” or “Do you want to be the one who voted against history?” (The last doesn’t make logical sense at all, but I had quite a few people ask me that)

    The articles:

    https://www.texasobserver.org/cover-story/rick-perrys-army-of-god

    http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/sarahposner/4874/rick_perry_and_the_new_apostolic_reformation/

  • DonS

    Katy @ 37: To clarify, no candidate has yet proclaimed, to my knowledge, that they are “called to be president”. They say they have been called to be a candidate. That is very very much different, and a much more credible statement. It is conceivable that a number of people might be called to be a candidate in a political election, not necessarily to win that election, but to focus the issues that are considered. From both sides of the aisle, conceivably.

    Now if a candidate proclaims they are called to be the winner of the election, and if you start hearing the kinds of things you are talking about, from the candidate or supporters, such as “Do you want to be the one who voted against history?”, in the sense of standing in the way of God’s will by how you cast your ballot, that is a very different matter. But none of the candidates so far, to the best of my knowledge, have come anywhere near to crossing that line.

  • DonS

    Katy @ 37: To clarify, no candidate has yet proclaimed, to my knowledge, that they are “called to be president”. They say they have been called to be a candidate. That is very very much different, and a much more credible statement. It is conceivable that a number of people might be called to be a candidate in a political election, not necessarily to win that election, but to focus the issues that are considered. From both sides of the aisle, conceivably.

    Now if a candidate proclaims they are called to be the winner of the election, and if you start hearing the kinds of things you are talking about, from the candidate or supporters, such as “Do you want to be the one who voted against history?”, in the sense of standing in the way of God’s will by how you cast your ballot, that is a very different matter. But none of the candidates so far, to the best of my knowledge, have come anywhere near to crossing that line.

  • Grace

    I believe it is possible that God may have urged a ‘number of these individuals to run for the presidency. By hearing and reading what each individual believes, gives us ‘some insight into who they are,….. and who they are not.

    God’s ways are not ours, we cannot possibly understand the WHY’S.

    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55

    Running and winning are two different things. We all, in some form or other run a race, some reach the so called top, and others are used in areas they never dreamed. By listening to the candidates, we can decide who might be a good VP, one who is capable to take over the presidency if need be.

    This is a time to get acquainted with those who either feel led to run, or others who desire the position of POTUS –

    Let’s be careful how we judge those who feel ‘called to run for president -

  • Grace

    I believe it is possible that God may have urged a ‘number of these individuals to run for the presidency. By hearing and reading what each individual believes, gives us ‘some insight into who they are,….. and who they are not.

    God’s ways are not ours, we cannot possibly understand the WHY’S.

    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55

    Running and winning are two different things. We all, in some form or other run a race, some reach the so called top, and others are used in areas they never dreamed. By listening to the candidates, we can decide who might be a good VP, one who is capable to take over the presidency if need be.

    This is a time to get acquainted with those who either feel led to run, or others who desire the position of POTUS –

    Let’s be careful how we judge those who feel ‘called to run for president -

  • John C

    As soon as I start hearing voices telling me to do something, Don, I’m going to the doctor.

  • John C

    As soon as I start hearing voices telling me to do something, Don, I’m going to the doctor.

  • DonS

    John C, that is probably a good idea. God’s calling on your life is almost never an audible voice.

  • DonS

    John C, that is probably a good idea. God’s calling on your life is almost never an audible voice.

  • Cincinnatus

    John C., we meet again.

    I tend to side with Joe when he notes that this is vapid political pandering. But as I also noted above, who said anyone “heard voices in their heads.” Seriously! Most of the quotes indicate that the candidates feel a vocation or “calling” to candidacy–much the same way a man might feel a calling to the ministry or to adopting a child, etc. Nothing about voices, John. DonS is generally correct that it’s not for us to question whether these callings are valid or not. Mostly, they’re irrelevant (i.e, there’s no point in voting for someone simply because they feel a calling to candidacy, even if it’s genuine) pandering (because there would be no need to point out their calling otherwise).

    In short, this is a non-issue. Let’s move on to something else. As katy points out, plenty of candidates (mostly on the Left of late) have claimed to have the Hegelian force of History on their side. This is no different or better.

  • Cincinnatus

    John C., we meet again.

    I tend to side with Joe when he notes that this is vapid political pandering. But as I also noted above, who said anyone “heard voices in their heads.” Seriously! Most of the quotes indicate that the candidates feel a vocation or “calling” to candidacy–much the same way a man might feel a calling to the ministry or to adopting a child, etc. Nothing about voices, John. DonS is generally correct that it’s not for us to question whether these callings are valid or not. Mostly, they’re irrelevant (i.e, there’s no point in voting for someone simply because they feel a calling to candidacy, even if it’s genuine) pandering (because there would be no need to point out their calling otherwise).

    In short, this is a non-issue. Let’s move on to something else. As katy points out, plenty of candidates (mostly on the Left of late) have claimed to have the Hegelian force of History on their side. This is no different or better.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    DonS,

    The standard for making the claim that God is “calling you to” something is not whether or not your claim contradicts the Scriptures. The standard is, “do the Scriptures say it?”

    Why? Because God’s calling is never uncertain, and everything not *said* in the Scriptures *is* uncertain.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    DonS,

    The standard for making the claim that God is “calling you to” something is not whether or not your claim contradicts the Scriptures. The standard is, “do the Scriptures say it?”

    Why? Because God’s calling is never uncertain, and everything not *said* in the Scriptures *is* uncertain.

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: Agreed. That indeed is the standard for whether we ourselves are being called. I was speaking, however, to the issue of us judging whether the claims of others to be called to a particular thing is genuine. A very different standard, wouldn’t you agree?

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: Agreed. That indeed is the standard for whether we ourselves are being called. I was speaking, however, to the issue of us judging whether the claims of others to be called to a particular thing is genuine. A very different standard, wouldn’t you agree?

  • Lou

    Dr. Veith, as your post notes, Gov. Perry has all the boxes checked and has certainly piqued my interest. However, also as you eluded, I think it will take a little time to confirm his creds and to see if he is “all that” in reality that he is on paper. I’m looking forward to this a little more now. Otherwise, I may have had to throw in with Romney (the only other one in the GOP field that has a chance of winning). Thanks for the update!

  • Lou

    Dr. Veith, as your post notes, Gov. Perry has all the boxes checked and has certainly piqued my interest. However, also as you eluded, I think it will take a little time to confirm his creds and to see if he is “all that” in reality that he is on paper. I’m looking forward to this a little more now. Otherwise, I may have had to throw in with Romney (the only other one in the GOP field that has a chance of winning). Thanks for the update!

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    DonS,

    That strikes me as a distinction without a real difference.

    “Where in Scripture is it written that Rick Perry is being called to run for president?” is an entirely legitimate question.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    DonS,

    That strikes me as a distinction without a real difference.

    “Where in Scripture is it written that Rick Perry is being called to run for president?” is an entirely legitimate question.

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: How do you figure it to be a distinction without a real difference? When we are evaluating our own call, part of that process is to search the Scriptures, as well as to spend hours on our knees. Another part is to talk with trusted folks who hold us accountable in our spiritual walk, including our pastor, spouse, and friends. Even then, incidentally, the Scriptures may not explicitly “say it” (your standard for a correct call from post 43). Scripture will never explicitly call someone to be an astronaut, for example.

    However, if someone we don’t know claims a calling from God, we necessarily evaluate using a different standard. I am not going to judge that person’s heart by blatantly saying that I disbelieve their calling, simply because the Scriptures don’t explicitly confirm it. Their calling is between them and God. I am merely going to ascertain (if I care enough to do so) whether or not their claim contradicts Scripture. If it does not, then I accept their word. It doesn’t mean I am going to vote for them — that is an entirely different issue.

    Does that clarify things?

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: How do you figure it to be a distinction without a real difference? When we are evaluating our own call, part of that process is to search the Scriptures, as well as to spend hours on our knees. Another part is to talk with trusted folks who hold us accountable in our spiritual walk, including our pastor, spouse, and friends. Even then, incidentally, the Scriptures may not explicitly “say it” (your standard for a correct call from post 43). Scripture will never explicitly call someone to be an astronaut, for example.

    However, if someone we don’t know claims a calling from God, we necessarily evaluate using a different standard. I am not going to judge that person’s heart by blatantly saying that I disbelieve their calling, simply because the Scriptures don’t explicitly confirm it. Their calling is between them and God. I am merely going to ascertain (if I care enough to do so) whether or not their claim contradicts Scripture. If it does not, then I accept their word. It doesn’t mean I am going to vote for them — that is an entirely different issue.

    Does that clarify things?

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    DonS,

    Yes, it does clarify things. What it makes clear is that however much you might want to think that you agree with me in #44, you actually don’t agree with me at all.

    I am saying that you cannot claim to be “called” to something unless the Scriptures say directly that you are because God is not a God of uncertainty but of certainty. This means that whenever anyone says that they are “called” by God to something that that claim can and must be evaluated on the basis of God’s Word.

    In #47, you make it clear that you believe that God reveals His calling to us apart from the Scriptures (through prayer, conversation, etc.). I reject that position completely.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    DonS,

    Yes, it does clarify things. What it makes clear is that however much you might want to think that you agree with me in #44, you actually don’t agree with me at all.

    I am saying that you cannot claim to be “called” to something unless the Scriptures say directly that you are because God is not a God of uncertainty but of certainty. This means that whenever anyone says that they are “called” by God to something that that claim can and must be evaluated on the basis of God’s Word.

    In #47, you make it clear that you believe that God reveals His calling to us apart from the Scriptures (through prayer, conversation, etc.). I reject that position completely.

  • Cincinnatus

    Then how were you called to the ministry, Rev. Lehmann?

    Or are you and DonS simply using the term “call” differently?

  • Cincinnatus

    Then how were you called to the ministry, Rev. Lehmann?

    Or are you and DonS simply using the term “call” differently?

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Cincinnatus,

    I was called through the church, and in the Scriptures God gives to His Church the authority to call pastors. Therefore, my call has the certainty that I’m claiming that all divine calls must have.

    DonS and I are definitely using the word “call” differently.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Cincinnatus,

    I was called through the church, and in the Scriptures God gives to His Church the authority to call pastors. Therefore, my call has the certainty that I’m claiming that all divine calls must have.

    DonS and I are definitely using the word “call” differently.

  • Cincinnatus

    Yep, you are. To be blunt, you’re being pedantic. Don’s using the term in the more general, casual sense in which these candidates are assuredly using it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Yep, you are. To be blunt, you’re being pedantic. Don’s using the term in the more general, casual sense in which these candidates are assuredly using it.

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: I think Cincinnatus makes the point well. You’re talking strictly about a pastoral call, and I was talking about the broader issue of vocation.

    I really don’t see the point of your original comment at all, in that light.

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: I think Cincinnatus makes the point well. You’re talking strictly about a pastoral call, and I was talking about the broader issue of vocation.

    I really don’t see the point of your original comment at all, in that light.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS said (@36):

    The problem is, we are human and thus incapable of judging the hearts of others.

    That statement seems at odds with this statement from DonS over a year ago:

    We judge people’s motives every day. There is nothing wrong with that. … I will not apologize for it, and there is nothing unscriptural about it.

    Of course, that was about a Democrat (Nancy Pelosi), whereas now we’re talking about judging the hearts of Republicans. Does that explain it, or am I missing something?

    Because this comes up not infrequently, and I can’t help but notice how consistent you are in refusing to judge the hearts/motives/attitudes of Republicans, and yet how equally consistently you find no problem doing the same to Democrats.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS said (@36):

    The problem is, we are human and thus incapable of judging the hearts of others.

    That statement seems at odds with this statement from DonS over a year ago:

    We judge people’s motives every day. There is nothing wrong with that. … I will not apologize for it, and there is nothing unscriptural about it.

    Of course, that was about a Democrat (Nancy Pelosi), whereas now we’re talking about judging the hearts of Republicans. Does that explain it, or am I missing something?

    Because this comes up not infrequently, and I can’t help but notice how consistent you are in refusing to judge the hearts/motives/attitudes of Republicans, and yet how equally consistently you find no problem doing the same to Democrats.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Texas ranks near the bottom in education.”

    Not.

    It ranks 5th, according to NAEP.

    Now it is true that the top 4 do spend about twice what Texas does. So, Texas probably does rank at the bottom for spending, but not for academic achievement.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Texas ranks near the bottom in education.”

    Not.

    It ranks 5th, according to NAEP.

    Now it is true that the top 4 do spend about twice what Texas does. So, Texas probably does rank at the bottom for spending, but not for academic achievement.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    My point still stands.

    If you are going to say that you’re being called by God to do something, you’d best be able to prove it on the basis of Scripture. That is the *only* basis for making such a claim.

    To use that language for political ends and without a Scriptural basis is nothing less than blasphemy.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    My point still stands.

    If you are going to say that you’re being called by God to do something, you’d best be able to prove it on the basis of Scripture. That is the *only* basis for making such a claim.

    To use that language for political ends and without a Scriptural basis is nothing less than blasphemy.

  • Grace

    Anyone can ‘try and skew the words of another, written or spoken months ago.

    How can one know another’s heart? – by their words and actions, some are EVIL and others are not.

    Nancy Pelosi is pro-abortion, ending the life of an infant – is that a judgement call? – evil can easily be judged.

    Feeling a call from God to ‘run for president is not the same as stating “God has called me to be the next president of the US” – running and winning are two different things.

  • Grace

    Anyone can ‘try and skew the words of another, written or spoken months ago.

    How can one know another’s heart? – by their words and actions, some are EVIL and others are not.

    Nancy Pelosi is pro-abortion, ending the life of an infant – is that a judgement call? – evil can easily be judged.

    Feeling a call from God to ‘run for president is not the same as stating “God has called me to be the next president of the US” – running and winning are two different things.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 54: Yes, we have had this conversation before. I’ll make two points regarding those prior conversations:
    a) Judging someone’s heart regarding their relationship with God is a far different thing than judging someone’s political motivations based on their external actions. You know this. And you also know that I have been consistent on the difference. See, for example, my response to your second link: http://www.geneveith.com/2011/03/10/newt-explains-his-affair-to-christians/#comment-109489, or my entire comment that you quoted only in out-of-context part above: http://www.geneveith.com/2010/06/01/setting-public-policy-according-to-the-word/#comment-83404

    I have never judged the spiritual condition of politicians of the left, right or center. Only their political motivations.

    To further illustrate this point, note that Cincinnatus and others above have said that these politicians telling others of God’s call on theirs lives is pandering. That is a judgment, as well, but of a very different nature than the one Jon made @ 31 and 34. I agree with Cincinnatus. It is almost certainly pandering. That is the kind of political judgment I made with respect to Nancy Pelosi in the earlier thread. But what Jon did was to make a religious judgment — judging that these politicians were lying about their call from God. That crossed the line, and I called him on it.

    b) Sometimes our conversations on this blog have an effect. Your insistence on calling me and others on what you call as judging the hearts of others is legitimate. And it has helped me draw a better line for myself on what is appropriate and inappropriate — I am a lot more careful now to evaluate my judgments and whether they are legitimate. So, thanks for that.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 54: Yes, we have had this conversation before. I’ll make two points regarding those prior conversations:
    a) Judging someone’s heart regarding their relationship with God is a far different thing than judging someone’s political motivations based on their external actions. You know this. And you also know that I have been consistent on the difference. See, for example, my response to your second link: http://www.geneveith.com/2011/03/10/newt-explains-his-affair-to-christians/#comment-109489, or my entire comment that you quoted only in out-of-context part above: http://www.geneveith.com/2010/06/01/setting-public-policy-according-to-the-word/#comment-83404

    I have never judged the spiritual condition of politicians of the left, right or center. Only their political motivations.

    To further illustrate this point, note that Cincinnatus and others above have said that these politicians telling others of God’s call on theirs lives is pandering. That is a judgment, as well, but of a very different nature than the one Jon made @ 31 and 34. I agree with Cincinnatus. It is almost certainly pandering. That is the kind of political judgment I made with respect to Nancy Pelosi in the earlier thread. But what Jon did was to make a religious judgment — judging that these politicians were lying about their call from God. That crossed the line, and I called him on it.

    b) Sometimes our conversations on this blog have an effect. Your insistence on calling me and others on what you call as judging the hearts of others is legitimate. And it has helped me draw a better line for myself on what is appropriate and inappropriate — I am a lot more careful now to evaluate my judgments and whether they are legitimate. So, thanks for that.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Perry is a man, so by definition, imperfect.

    His life story is way more compelling that Barack Obama’s. He comes from the currently most despised and denigrated of all demographics, lower class rural white men. In the 1950′s when life was allegedly at its best for white Americans, Perry grew up the son of tenant farmers in the dusty middle of nowhere. It seems he was rather unassuming choosing to study Ag. Science. Obviously no delusions of grandeur. Ironically, it is one of the harder yet least prestigious of all majors. My gut reaction is I don’t think Perry wanted to run for president, but someone convinced him. Perry can’t be stupid because the military trained him to be a pilot, and they use actual performance predictive criteria to select candidates for pilot training, the kind of criteria that will get you slapped with a huge discrimination judgement if you try it in the private sector.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Perry is a man, so by definition, imperfect.

    His life story is way more compelling that Barack Obama’s. He comes from the currently most despised and denigrated of all demographics, lower class rural white men. In the 1950′s when life was allegedly at its best for white Americans, Perry grew up the son of tenant farmers in the dusty middle of nowhere. It seems he was rather unassuming choosing to study Ag. Science. Obviously no delusions of grandeur. Ironically, it is one of the harder yet least prestigious of all majors. My gut reaction is I don’t think Perry wanted to run for president, but someone convinced him. Perry can’t be stupid because the military trained him to be a pilot, and they use actual performance predictive criteria to select candidates for pilot training, the kind of criteria that will get you slapped with a huge discrimination judgement if you try it in the private sector.

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: Your point still stand? In your mind, maybe, because you’ve adopted a ridiculously narrow interpretation of “calling”. And your blasphemy comment is over the top. Not to mention your judgmental heart.

    Obviously, you have a political axe to grind here.

  • DonS

    Rev. Lehmann: Your point still stand? In your mind, maybe, because you’ve adopted a ridiculously narrow interpretation of “calling”. And your blasphemy comment is over the top. Not to mention your judgmental heart.

    Obviously, you have a political axe to grind here.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    I know almost nothing about Perry. Heck, I might even vote for him despite his crappy theology. I have no idea one way or the other.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    I know almost nothing about Perry. Heck, I might even vote for him despite his crappy theology. I have no idea one way or the other.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you are going to say that you’re being called by God to do something, you’d best be able to prove it on the basis of Scripture. That is the *only* basis for making such a claim.

    To use that language for political ends and without a Scriptural basis is nothing less than blasphemy.

    I won’t argue the accuracy of this statement, because that is also how I see it. However, many folks I know who do talk this way come from a family and church background where that kind of language is used and the folks they most respected and admired for as long as they can remember talked that way. So, I think we can have a little cultural sensitivity to the fact that they don’t think/know that it is a little over the top. I don’t see them as being intentionally disrespectful, blasphemous, etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you are going to say that you’re being called by God to do something, you’d best be able to prove it on the basis of Scripture. That is the *only* basis for making such a claim.

    To use that language for political ends and without a Scriptural basis is nothing less than blasphemy.

    I won’t argue the accuracy of this statement, because that is also how I see it. However, many folks I know who do talk this way come from a family and church background where that kind of language is used and the folks they most respected and admired for as long as they can remember talked that way. So, I think we can have a little cultural sensitivity to the fact that they don’t think/know that it is a little over the top. I don’t see them as being intentionally disrespectful, blasphemous, etc.

  • SKPeterson

    Well, with the notion of ‘calling’ or ‘vocation’ it becomes and interesting exercise in teasing out meaning. God calls each of us to serve our fellow man through our vocations. Moreover, these vocations are simply equated with one’s remunerative occupation, but are lived out in the various roles that we occupy every day. Has God ‘called’ me to be a husband, father, or employee? Yes and no. Have I been called specifically by God to fulfill a role? Yes, through my baptism. After that, I have been given the generic call by God to live out my life as a Christian in service to my fellow man by fulfilling a variety of roles; I have not been given a specific calling in the form of instructions to marry a particular woman, or to take up a particular profession.

    How are these candidates using the term ‘call’ or ‘vocation’? A gut instinct, or a specific word? If it is the first, it is only the recognition that one has the possibility of serving one’s fellow man by offering one’s service through elective office – a generic calling open to all who so desire and have the means to do so. If it is the second, how are we to judge such claims against the clarity of Scripture? Would it not be an extra-Biblical revelation?

  • SKPeterson

    Well, with the notion of ‘calling’ or ‘vocation’ it becomes and interesting exercise in teasing out meaning. God calls each of us to serve our fellow man through our vocations. Moreover, these vocations are simply equated with one’s remunerative occupation, but are lived out in the various roles that we occupy every day. Has God ‘called’ me to be a husband, father, or employee? Yes and no. Have I been called specifically by God to fulfill a role? Yes, through my baptism. After that, I have been given the generic call by God to live out my life as a Christian in service to my fellow man by fulfilling a variety of roles; I have not been given a specific calling in the form of instructions to marry a particular woman, or to take up a particular profession.

    How are these candidates using the term ‘call’ or ‘vocation’? A gut instinct, or a specific word? If it is the first, it is only the recognition that one has the possibility of serving one’s fellow man by offering one’s service through elective office – a generic calling open to all who so desire and have the means to do so. If it is the second, how are we to judge such claims against the clarity of Scripture? Would it not be an extra-Biblical revelation?

  • SKPeterson

    Should be “are not simply equated” in line 4 above.

  • SKPeterson

    Should be “are not simply equated” in line 4 above.

  • Joe

    Rev. Lahmann – Can I ask then how you view the use of the word call in the general vocational setting – think vocations such as father, husband, employee – are you saying we should just not use call in regards to these situations and leave it reserved for being called as a pastor?

    I don’t disagree with such a restricted use. I think the over use of the word “called” is part and parcel of the evangelical desire (which is creeping into Lutheranism) to label everything a ministry.

  • Joe

    Rev. Lahmann – Can I ask then how you view the use of the word call in the general vocational setting – think vocations such as father, husband, employee – are you saying we should just not use call in regards to these situations and leave it reserved for being called as a pastor?

    I don’t disagree with such a restricted use. I think the over use of the word “called” is part and parcel of the evangelical desire (which is creeping into Lutheranism) to label everything a ministry.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Joe,

    Those general callings have biblical warrant. Perry is making a special claim beyond that.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Joe,

    Those general callings have biblical warrant. Perry is making a special claim beyond that.

  • helen

    I am corrected …. twice… as to where the NAEP ranks Texas educationally.

  • helen

    I am corrected …. twice… as to where the NAEP ranks Texas educationally.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t disagree with such a restricted use. I think the over use of the word “called” is part and parcel of the evangelical desire (which is creeping into Lutheranism) to label everything a ministry.

    Plausible.

    I notice they like to give their testimony, too. I have wondered whether that is due to having no confession and absolution in the service. They still feel the need to confess and be absolved, but there is no procedure, so they kind of just go through the emotional process rather than the more objective process. Just 2¢.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t disagree with such a restricted use. I think the over use of the word “called” is part and parcel of the evangelical desire (which is creeping into Lutheranism) to label everything a ministry.

    Plausible.

    I notice they like to give their testimony, too. I have wondered whether that is due to having no confession and absolution in the service. They still feel the need to confess and be absolved, but there is no procedure, so they kind of just go through the emotional process rather than the more objective process. Just 2¢.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I notice that some commenters at the Huff Post were laughing at Perry’s HS, so I looked up the current achievement stats at the high school from which he graduated, Paint Creek. It is preK -12 with 162 students.

    Here are the scores of these rural Texas kids:

    http://www.greatschools.org/modperl/achievement/tx/5261#from..HeaderLink

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I notice that some commenters at the Huff Post were laughing at Perry’s HS, so I looked up the current achievement stats at the high school from which he graduated, Paint Creek. It is preK -12 with 162 students.

    Here are the scores of these rural Texas kids:

    http://www.greatschools.org/modperl/achievement/tx/5261#from..HeaderLink

  • Grace

    sg @67

    Giving ones ‘Testimony is often a chance to share and give glory to God, as to what HE has done in one’s life.

    I have been in church (evening service) or a Bible study where this is often done, it’s a wonderful time of fellowship and giving thanks to God.

    It’s ‘expression, NOT ‘confession –

    Our lives in many ways are a ‘ministry. We are all given gifts by the HOLY Spirit, using them to honor God is a ministry.

  • Grace

    sg @67

    Giving ones ‘Testimony is often a chance to share and give glory to God, as to what HE has done in one’s life.

    I have been in church (evening service) or a Bible study where this is often done, it’s a wonderful time of fellowship and giving thanks to God.

    It’s ‘expression, NOT ‘confession –

    Our lives in many ways are a ‘ministry. We are all given gifts by the HOLY Spirit, using them to honor God is a ministry.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 69

    “Our lives in many ways are a ‘ministry. We are all given gifts by the HOLY Spirit, using them to honor God is a ministry.”

    Seems like semantics. What some call ministry, others call vocation.

    As for giving one’s testimony, I became a Christian at age 15 after having attended a Baptist church for about a year and a half. I understand and appreciate your point of view on this subject. I don’t mean any disrespect. I just wonder whether having weekly confession and absolution affects people such that they express themselves differently. Perhaps it has more to do with their baptism as infants, so the testimony is basically, “I am Susan and have been a Christian since I was six weeks old.” Kinda anti climactic, ya know.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 69

    “Our lives in many ways are a ‘ministry. We are all given gifts by the HOLY Spirit, using them to honor God is a ministry.”

    Seems like semantics. What some call ministry, others call vocation.

    As for giving one’s testimony, I became a Christian at age 15 after having attended a Baptist church for about a year and a half. I understand and appreciate your point of view on this subject. I don’t mean any disrespect. I just wonder whether having weekly confession and absolution affects people such that they express themselves differently. Perhaps it has more to do with their baptism as infants, so the testimony is basically, “I am Susan and have been a Christian since I was six weeks old.” Kinda anti climactic, ya know.

  • Grace

    sg @70
    “As for giving one’s testimony, I became a Christian at age 15 after having attended a Baptist church for about a year and a half. I understand and appreciate your point of view on this subject. I don’t mean any disrespect. I just wonder whether having weekly confession and absolution affects people such that they express themselves differently.

    sg, you are missing the point of “testimony” confusing it with “absolution” – A ‘testimony is something which God has done in your life – it can be praising God for answered prayer, it has nothing to do with “absolution” –

    “Perhaps it has more to do with their baptism as infants, so the testimony is basically, “I am Susan and have been a Christian since I was six weeks old.” Kinda anti climactic, ya know.”

    You still miss the point… you obviously believe that children without repentance, or belief are Christians at “six weeks old” ….. we who are not Lutheran, do not believe that to be true. We have had these discussions of Baptism and guaranteed Salvation by parents of infants in the past. You confuse Baptism with ‘testimony and “absolution” –

    What you’re referring to is not “anti climactic” – God continues to answer prayer, telling others, giving a witness/testimony of what one has observed in the changed lives of others, or ones own IS a testimony.

  • Grace

    sg @70
    “As for giving one’s testimony, I became a Christian at age 15 after having attended a Baptist church for about a year and a half. I understand and appreciate your point of view on this subject. I don’t mean any disrespect. I just wonder whether having weekly confession and absolution affects people such that they express themselves differently.

    sg, you are missing the point of “testimony” confusing it with “absolution” – A ‘testimony is something which God has done in your life – it can be praising God for answered prayer, it has nothing to do with “absolution” –

    “Perhaps it has more to do with their baptism as infants, so the testimony is basically, “I am Susan and have been a Christian since I was six weeks old.” Kinda anti climactic, ya know.”

    You still miss the point… you obviously believe that children without repentance, or belief are Christians at “six weeks old” ….. we who are not Lutheran, do not believe that to be true. We have had these discussions of Baptism and guaranteed Salvation by parents of infants in the past. You confuse Baptism with ‘testimony and “absolution” –

    What you’re referring to is not “anti climactic” – God continues to answer prayer, telling others, giving a witness/testimony of what one has observed in the changed lives of others, or ones own IS a testimony.

  • Grace

    sg

    Churches which I have been affiliated with, do not have a time of congregants giving a “testimony” each week. It’s done perhaps once a month, …. by a few people.

  • Grace

    sg

    Churches which I have been affiliated with, do not have a time of congregants giving a “testimony” each week. It’s done perhaps once a month, …. by a few people.

  • Grace

    sg,

    How many times, if ever, have you been in a service where “testimony’s” were given?

  • Grace

    sg,

    How many times, if ever, have you been in a service where “testimony’s” were given?

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Maybe that’s it, Tom!

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Maybe that’s it, Tom!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @72

    I don’t recall hearing one in a regular Sunday service, but that was almost 30 years ago, so forgive my poor memory Most of the time it was during some event, or Sunday evening which was usually an extra Bible class the pastor would do for us, but sometimes something else was planned.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @72

    I don’t recall hearing one in a regular Sunday service, but that was almost 30 years ago, so forgive my poor memory Most of the time it was during some event, or Sunday evening which was usually an extra Bible class the pastor would do for us, but sometimes something else was planned.

  • Grace

    sg,

    I have witnessed many evening services and Bible studies where personal ‘testimonys were give as to God’s answered prayer … lives changed. It has always been wonderful to hear others tell of God’s power in their lives and those of their loved ones.

    I believe strongly in telling others how God has worked in a mighty way within my life, my families and friends. People have been telling others of the LORD’s power in their lives since time. One has only to read the New Testament to see those touched by Christ, their lives changed forever.

  • Grace

    sg,

    I have witnessed many evening services and Bible studies where personal ‘testimonys were give as to God’s answered prayer … lives changed. It has always been wonderful to hear others tell of God’s power in their lives and those of their loved ones.

    I believe strongly in telling others how God has worked in a mighty way within my life, my families and friends. People have been telling others of the LORD’s power in their lives since time. One has only to read the New Testament to see those touched by Christ, their lives changed forever.

  • helen

    you obviously believe that children without repentance, or belief are Christians at “six weeks old”

    Grace,
    Lutherans do believe that infants have faith. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit to anyone, after all, and to say that he “can’t” give it to infants is putting limits on God. I don’t think we can decide what God “can’t” do!
    Jesus said, “Let the little children (and the word is infants, newborns) come to Me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven. John the Baptist recognized Jesus before either of them were born.
    (Children who are regularly in church before birth recognize the music they heard their mother sing, after they are born.)

    YMMV

    I wouldn’t confuse “testimony” with confession&absolution, but then, I’m a Lutheran.
    [Yes, I have been in a group which made a big deal of "testimonies" and "speaking in tongues", too,
    to the point of saying those who didn't do it weren't really Christians... (sort of like our baptized babies)?]

  • helen

    you obviously believe that children without repentance, or belief are Christians at “six weeks old”

    Grace,
    Lutherans do believe that infants have faith. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit to anyone, after all, and to say that he “can’t” give it to infants is putting limits on God. I don’t think we can decide what God “can’t” do!
    Jesus said, “Let the little children (and the word is infants, newborns) come to Me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven. John the Baptist recognized Jesus before either of them were born.
    (Children who are regularly in church before birth recognize the music they heard their mother sing, after they are born.)

    YMMV

    I wouldn’t confuse “testimony” with confession&absolution, but then, I’m a Lutheran.
    [Yes, I have been in a group which made a big deal of "testimonies" and "speaking in tongues", too,
    to the point of saying those who didn't do it weren't really Christians... (sort of like our baptized babies)?]

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sg, you are missing the point of “testimony” confusing it with “absolution” – A ‘testimony is something which God has done in your life – it can be praising God for answered prayer, it has nothing to do with “absolution” –

    Yes, I got that. However, among the content, there are at times confession of faith, confessions of sins and quite a few other things, that in my experience other Christians of other stripes don’t either feel the need to share or at least in that kind of public manner. It isn’t part of their denomination’s, uh, practice. They do however have things like reciting creeds and confession of sins as part of their practice. Since the testimony practice seems to have arisen in churches that don’t do the other, it makes me wonder why. That’s it. I don’t have any other point but to wonder about it and whether there is a connection.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sg, you are missing the point of “testimony” confusing it with “absolution” – A ‘testimony is something which God has done in your life – it can be praising God for answered prayer, it has nothing to do with “absolution” –

    Yes, I got that. However, among the content, there are at times confession of faith, confessions of sins and quite a few other things, that in my experience other Christians of other stripes don’t either feel the need to share or at least in that kind of public manner. It isn’t part of their denomination’s, uh, practice. They do however have things like reciting creeds and confession of sins as part of their practice. Since the testimony practice seems to have arisen in churches that don’t do the other, it makes me wonder why. That’s it. I don’t have any other point but to wonder about it and whether there is a connection.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I believe strongly in telling others how God has worked in a mighty way within my life, my families and friends. People have been telling others of the LORD’s power in their lives since time. One has only to read the New Testament to see those touched by Christ, their lives changed forever.”

    Sounds good to me. Rick Perry would probably also agree. (feeble attempt to get back on topic :–D )

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I believe strongly in telling others how God has worked in a mighty way within my life, my families and friends. People have been telling others of the LORD’s power in their lives since time. One has only to read the New Testament to see those touched by Christ, their lives changed forever.”

    Sounds good to me. Rick Perry would probably also agree. (feeble attempt to get back on topic :–D )

  • Grace

    helen @77

    The doctrine of Baptism equals Salvation for infants has been discussed over and over. There is no need to do it again.

    YOU WROTE: “[Yes, I have been in a group which made a big deal of "testimonies" and "speaking in tongues", too,
    to the point of saying those who didn't do it weren't really Christians... (sort of like our baptized babies)?]“

    I don’t speak in tongues, nor do I attend services where people do. There are churches who believe as you say, regarding those who don’t speak in tongues are not really saved. I don’t believe that doctrine, nor is it in Scripture.

  • Grace

    helen @77

    The doctrine of Baptism equals Salvation for infants has been discussed over and over. There is no need to do it again.

    YOU WROTE: “[Yes, I have been in a group which made a big deal of "testimonies" and "speaking in tongues", too,
    to the point of saying those who didn't do it weren't really Christians... (sort of like our baptized babies)?]“

    I don’t speak in tongues, nor do I attend services where people do. There are churches who believe as you say, regarding those who don’t speak in tongues are not really saved. I don’t believe that doctrine, nor is it in Scripture.

  • Grace

    sg @79

    “Rick Perry would probably also agree. (feeble attempt to get back on topic :–D )

    You were the one who brought up testimony first in post #70. From all you have posted regarding one giving their “testimony” it appears you have not witnessed it very often first hand. Many times people ask for prayer for loved ones, or those who are sick, or other reasons.

    @70 “I notice they like to give their testimony, too. I have wondered whether that is due to having no confession and absolution in the service. They still feel the need to confess and be absolved, but there is no procedure, so they kind of just go through the emotional process rather than the more objective process. Just 2¢.

  • Grace

    sg @79

    “Rick Perry would probably also agree. (feeble attempt to get back on topic :–D )

    You were the one who brought up testimony first in post #70. From all you have posted regarding one giving their “testimony” it appears you have not witnessed it very often first hand. Many times people ask for prayer for loved ones, or those who are sick, or other reasons.

    @70 “I notice they like to give their testimony, too. I have wondered whether that is due to having no confession and absolution in the service. They still feel the need to confess and be absolved, but there is no procedure, so they kind of just go through the emotional process rather than the more objective process. Just 2¢.

  • SKPeterson

    OK – back to the topic at hand. The WSJ has an interesting little article in the Cross Country column by Charles Dameron entitled “Rick Perry’s Crony Capitalism Problem” which describes the (ab)use of the Texas Emerging Technology Fund – a state fund designed to “invest” in emerging technology companies in the state of Texas.

    So, problem #1 – the establishment of this fund in the first place. Not conservative, not by a long shot.

    Problem #2 – the typical result when you have political control over tax dollars – political favorites get economic favors; political contributors to Perry’s gubernatorial campaign got essentially free taxpayer monies for their “start-ups”. It has the appearance that political campaign contributions were reimbursed through the funds. No esta bien. Esta muy Louisiana.

    As one (egads! a Tea-Party type!) state rep, David Simpson, notes the fund “opened the door to the appearance of impropriety, if not actual impropriety.”

  • SKPeterson

    OK – back to the topic at hand. The WSJ has an interesting little article in the Cross Country column by Charles Dameron entitled “Rick Perry’s Crony Capitalism Problem” which describes the (ab)use of the Texas Emerging Technology Fund – a state fund designed to “invest” in emerging technology companies in the state of Texas.

    So, problem #1 – the establishment of this fund in the first place. Not conservative, not by a long shot.

    Problem #2 – the typical result when you have political control over tax dollars – political favorites get economic favors; political contributors to Perry’s gubernatorial campaign got essentially free taxpayer monies for their “start-ups”. It has the appearance that political campaign contributions were reimbursed through the funds. No esta bien. Esta muy Louisiana.

    As one (egads! a Tea-Party type!) state rep, David Simpson, notes the fund “opened the door to the appearance of impropriety, if not actual impropriety.”

  • helen

    Carl Vehse @ 5
    In the meantime, it will be interesting to see how Texan Rick Perry demonstrates his qualities to serve as a Vice-Presidential running mate to Alaskan Sarah Palin.

    Rick got his present job when the incumbent left and then hung on to it. Maybe he can parlay the Presidency into 2 1/2 terms when Sarah gets tired of the game. ;

    I don’t know, Rick; we “kicked a

  • helen

    Carl Vehse @ 5
    In the meantime, it will be interesting to see how Texan Rick Perry demonstrates his qualities to serve as a Vice-Presidential running mate to Alaskan Sarah Palin.

    Rick got his present job when the incumbent left and then hung on to it. Maybe he can parlay the Presidency into 2 1/2 terms when Sarah gets tired of the game. ;

    I don’t know, Rick; we “kicked a

  • helen

    OOPS!

    I was going to say… we LCMS Lutherans “kicked a district president upstairs” and we’ll be dealing with the results of that for some time to come. AND he’s back in Texas.
    Do you think we should repeat that experiment?,/i>

    Maybe if we really could secede??? :)

  • helen

    OOPS!

    I was going to say… we LCMS Lutherans “kicked a district president upstairs” and we’ll be dealing with the results of that for some time to come. AND he’s back in Texas.
    Do you think we should repeat that experiment?,/i>

    Maybe if we really could secede??? :)

  • Tom Hering

    “God called me (too) to run for President” = “I’m your best non-Mormon choice.”

  • Tom Hering

    “God called me (too) to run for President” = “I’m your best non-Mormon choice.”

  • Another Kerner

    This has been an interesting conversation….a discussion of vocation and, for the most part, about how a person, in this instance, Rick Perry, decides what “the will of God” is for his life at this time in American history.

    I think it is a matter of the nomenclature or “language” used by “evangelicals” when making important decisions in their lives, which sometimes is a little theologically disconcerting to some Confessional Lutherans.

    “Evangelicals” appear to use the word “call” interchaneably with discerning God’s will for their lives at a particular time.

    God’s will is readily found in Scipture, obviously.

    The author of this blog and author of the book “God At Work” explains very clearly the Reformation’s doctrine of vocation.

    Let us not “strain at the gnat and swallow the camel”, nor strive over Governor Perry’s words whilst he is in the decision making process pertinent to running for the Presidential nomination in the Republican party.

    It is apparent that he is not talking about “hearing a voice” nor does his choice of words suggest that he needs to check with his physician for a change of medication.

    As my neighbor recently remarked:
    “I would vote for an orange juice can before I would vote for that guy in the White House now.”

    Me too.

  • Another Kerner

    This has been an interesting conversation….a discussion of vocation and, for the most part, about how a person, in this instance, Rick Perry, decides what “the will of God” is for his life at this time in American history.

    I think it is a matter of the nomenclature or “language” used by “evangelicals” when making important decisions in their lives, which sometimes is a little theologically disconcerting to some Confessional Lutherans.

    “Evangelicals” appear to use the word “call” interchaneably with discerning God’s will for their lives at a particular time.

    God’s will is readily found in Scipture, obviously.

    The author of this blog and author of the book “God At Work” explains very clearly the Reformation’s doctrine of vocation.

    Let us not “strain at the gnat and swallow the camel”, nor strive over Governor Perry’s words whilst he is in the decision making process pertinent to running for the Presidential nomination in the Republican party.

    It is apparent that he is not talking about “hearing a voice” nor does his choice of words suggest that he needs to check with his physician for a change of medication.

    As my neighbor recently remarked:
    “I would vote for an orange juice can before I would vote for that guy in the White House now.”

    Me too.

  • Grace

    It has just been announced:

    CNN Breaking News

    “Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced Saturday his intention to seek the 2012 Republican nomination for president.

    Perry declared his candidacy at a conservative conference in Charleston, South Carolina, an important early primary state. He launched his presidential campaign website, rickperry.org, shortly before the announcement.

    Perry’s entry into the race puts him into direct competition with Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota for core right-wing and tea party support. A new CNN/ORC International poll released Thursday showed 15% of Republican and GOP-leaning independent voters preferred Perry, just behind former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney. “

  • Grace

    It has just been announced:

    CNN Breaking News

    “Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced Saturday his intention to seek the 2012 Republican nomination for president.

    Perry declared his candidacy at a conservative conference in Charleston, South Carolina, an important early primary state. He launched his presidential campaign website, rickperry.org, shortly before the announcement.

    Perry’s entry into the race puts him into direct competition with Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota for core right-wing and tea party support. A new CNN/ORC International poll released Thursday showed 15% of Republican and GOP-leaning independent voters preferred Perry, just behind former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney. “

  • helen

    As an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/new/7607414

    Perry’s church giving falls below average
    Since 2000, governor has donated half a percent to religious groups
    By GARY SCHARRER
    AUSTIN BUREAU
    June 13, 2011, 5:36AM

    A guy took in what he did, and spent nothing for his & family’s support, from property taxes to toilet paper, could do a little better, I should think?

  • helen

    As an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/new/7607414

    Perry’s church giving falls below average
    Since 2000, governor has donated half a percent to religious groups
    By GARY SCHARRER
    AUSTIN BUREAU
    June 13, 2011, 5:36AM

    A guy took in what he did, and spent nothing for his & family’s support, from property taxes to toilet paper, could do a little better, I should think?

  • Grace

    helen – 88

    Many people, whether you are aware of it or not…. give without making mention, even on their taxes.

  • Grace

    helen – 88

    Many people, whether you are aware of it or not…. give without making mention, even on their taxes.

  • Grace

    Helen

    YOU WROTE: an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.

    I cannot locate that comment, who made it and post number, please.

  • Grace

    Helen

    YOU WROTE: an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.

    I cannot locate that comment, who made it and post number, please.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    I’m a Texan. I would never support Perry. He’s a face with a suit, and not much else. Power politics at its finest.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    I’m a Texan. I would never support Perry. He’s a face with a suit, and not much else. Power politics at its finest.

  • Grace

    Rick Perry, a three-term conservative governor of Texas…. he most certainly has accomplished more than a few things of great importance to his state, or he would not have been given position of Governor of Texas, THREE TERMS!

    Rick Perry Releases First Web Video Touting his Jobs Record
    August 13, 2011 5:01 PM

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/08/rick-perry-releases-first-web-video-touting-his-jobs-record.html

  • Grace

    Rick Perry, a three-term conservative governor of Texas…. he most certainly has accomplished more than a few things of great importance to his state, or he would not have been given position of Governor of Texas, THREE TERMS!

    Rick Perry Releases First Web Video Touting his Jobs Record
    August 13, 2011 5:01 PM

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/08/rick-perry-releases-first-web-video-touting-his-jobs-record.html

  • fws

    http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-state-budget-crisis-2011-1

    They point out that Texas does not fit conventional wisdom… low tax… business friendly and so not much to cut in the budget, but with massive deficits…

    If you follow on with the article you will see that the misery does not descriminate between blue and red states at all however.

    So alot of the red vs blue state arguments just dont seem to really fit.

    and then in another place in this site, they examine city budgets that look even worse. why? the states are trimming their budgets by cutting back on funding for local city services. And the cities have even thinner tax bases than the states do usually…. and how would one make a red vs blue argument in the cities?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-state-budget-crisis-2011-1#now-see-why-theyre-all-broke-16

    Cities and states cannot print more money etc unlike the feds. So the cities and states will reflect a more honest picture of what is happening I think. It is what the federal government would look like if they could not print more money. And what would have happened to Texas and other states and cities without that federal stimulus money? They would probably be looking like ireland and greece now….

    So this all represents a second wave of problems that noone wants to talk about. why? it doesnt score points for dems or republicans I suspect is why. There is no silver bullet, so no one wants to call attention to it. it would be political poison to highlight these issues. why would any politician, red or blue want to do that? But the adult thing would be to address it, and highlight it, and deal with it.

  • fws

    http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-state-budget-crisis-2011-1

    They point out that Texas does not fit conventional wisdom… low tax… business friendly and so not much to cut in the budget, but with massive deficits…

    If you follow on with the article you will see that the misery does not descriminate between blue and red states at all however.

    So alot of the red vs blue state arguments just dont seem to really fit.

    and then in another place in this site, they examine city budgets that look even worse. why? the states are trimming their budgets by cutting back on funding for local city services. And the cities have even thinner tax bases than the states do usually…. and how would one make a red vs blue argument in the cities?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/texas-state-budget-crisis-2011-1#now-see-why-theyre-all-broke-16

    Cities and states cannot print more money etc unlike the feds. So the cities and states will reflect a more honest picture of what is happening I think. It is what the federal government would look like if they could not print more money. And what would have happened to Texas and other states and cities without that federal stimulus money? They would probably be looking like ireland and greece now….

    So this all represents a second wave of problems that noone wants to talk about. why? it doesnt score points for dems or republicans I suspect is why. There is no silver bullet, so no one wants to call attention to it. it would be political poison to highlight these issues. why would any politician, red or blue want to do that? But the adult thing would be to address it, and highlight it, and deal with it.

  • Cincinnatus

    fws:

    There is a silver bullet: make massive spending cuts (and, if absolutely necessary, raise taxes). cf. Wisconsin. We now have a balanced budget, and yes, my property taxes are going up. Again. So yeah, it hurts, but it works. The problem is that, elsewhere, no one wants to do the hard but obvious work.

    The real problem is that, during the “Roaring 90′s,” cities and states were, in general awash in cash. They decided to spend it all and more. Now the revenue isn’t coming in, for obvious reasons, and it probably won’t for the foreseeable future. It’s time to cut. There’s nothing mysterious about it. We’re simply stuck with exorbitant programs and payrolls that were only barely imaginable in the ’90s, and no one has the will to face reality. It doesn’t help that unions, Democrats, and other interest groups will have none of it (Nancy Pelosi just a few days ago, by the way, announced that the first priority of the Democratic members of the budget super-committee will be to “protect and strengthen Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.” Combined with Republican intransigence about cutting taxes, this is going to be bad for everyone, states included.)

    But your analogy to Greece is quite apropos. While we tend to gaze in horror upon Germany being forced to doll out bail money to its irresponsible Southern neighbors, the federal government does this all the time for the states.

    As we all know, however, the gravy train is ending–for everyone.

  • Cincinnatus

    fws:

    There is a silver bullet: make massive spending cuts (and, if absolutely necessary, raise taxes). cf. Wisconsin. We now have a balanced budget, and yes, my property taxes are going up. Again. So yeah, it hurts, but it works. The problem is that, elsewhere, no one wants to do the hard but obvious work.

    The real problem is that, during the “Roaring 90′s,” cities and states were, in general awash in cash. They decided to spend it all and more. Now the revenue isn’t coming in, for obvious reasons, and it probably won’t for the foreseeable future. It’s time to cut. There’s nothing mysterious about it. We’re simply stuck with exorbitant programs and payrolls that were only barely imaginable in the ’90s, and no one has the will to face reality. It doesn’t help that unions, Democrats, and other interest groups will have none of it (Nancy Pelosi just a few days ago, by the way, announced that the first priority of the Democratic members of the budget super-committee will be to “protect and strengthen Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.” Combined with Republican intransigence about cutting taxes, this is going to be bad for everyone, states included.)

    But your analogy to Greece is quite apropos. While we tend to gaze in horror upon Germany being forced to doll out bail money to its irresponsible Southern neighbors, the federal government does this all the time for the states.

    As we all know, however, the gravy train is ending–for everyone.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    One thing about taxes in Texas is that they are sales and property taxes and they are not low. One result of high property taxes is lower property values because a high percentage of housing costs are taxes. The advantage is that everyone pays even renters because they pay through their rent. Taxes on a $250K house in Texas are like $650 a month. That is a real problem if you lose your job. Now in California, they have an income tax, which seems more reasonable because it taxes money that you actually have. However, income tax is also easier to evade through the cash economy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    One thing about taxes in Texas is that they are sales and property taxes and they are not low. One result of high property taxes is lower property values because a high percentage of housing costs are taxes. The advantage is that everyone pays even renters because they pay through their rent. Taxes on a $250K house in Texas are like $650 a month. That is a real problem if you lose your job. Now in California, they have an income tax, which seems more reasonable because it taxes money that you actually have. However, income tax is also easier to evade through the cash economy.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus

    You posted a comment by Pelosi below:

    Pelosi stated: “protect and strengthen Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.”

    I don’t like Pelosi – however, do you support cutting Social Security and Medicare for our elders? I can’t imagine anything more disgraceful, on the part of spoiled squanderers of money, after they have spent theirs on homes, and other things they could not afford, and then slap their parents and elders. Let’s face it, many of those who misused their own money will not help their elders, they cannot help themselves nor anyone else.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus

    You posted a comment by Pelosi below:

    Pelosi stated: “protect and strengthen Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.”

    I don’t like Pelosi – however, do you support cutting Social Security and Medicare for our elders? I can’t imagine anything more disgraceful, on the part of spoiled squanderers of money, after they have spent theirs on homes, and other things they could not afford, and then slap their parents and elders. Let’s face it, many of those who misused their own money will not help their elders, they cannot help themselves nor anyone else.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace,

    Who said anything about cutting either of those programs? Both programs are unsustainable, and both require extreme reforms or no one will get anything from them in the coming decades, and they’ll bring the country down with them. So yeah, I support things like raising the retirement age, etc.

    But this doesn’t at all imply that I condone simply cutting payments to current pensioners.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace,

    Who said anything about cutting either of those programs? Both programs are unsustainable, and both require extreme reforms or no one will get anything from them in the coming decades, and they’ll bring the country down with them. So yeah, I support things like raising the retirement age, etc.

    But this doesn’t at all imply that I condone simply cutting payments to current pensioners.

  • Pingback: Rick Perry Announces Run For Presidency « News Worldwide

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  • helen

    Grace @ 89
    I am well aware of it, for about 10 years a tithe and more from me wasn’t worth telling the IRS about.
    I paid for my own rent, utilities, car maintenance and food (as I do now).
    Are you suggesting that Perry, with his millions (and his total support by his fellow Texans), is in my bracket?

    Grace @ 90
    The story was reported @1 and I repeated MMc’s link, also.

    Grace @ 92
    The first time, Perry inherited the office from Bush II.
    The Governor’s office may be “weak” by some definitions but he has the power of appointment.
    He’s used it to reward his friends and depose people who dare to disagree with him.
    Someone else commented on the ethics of his having a big pot of state tax money to dole out.

    [There is also the problem of voting for any Democrat if you are anti abortion.
    Perry calls himself a Republican since the state turned in that direction.]

    fws @ 92
    The federal government gives back where it wants to control state policies by doing so.
    The analogy to Greece is tax avoidance by those who have profited out of this debacle,
    (including half Obama’s cabinet, if we can believe the news).

  • helen

    Grace @ 89
    I am well aware of it, for about 10 years a tithe and more from me wasn’t worth telling the IRS about.
    I paid for my own rent, utilities, car maintenance and food (as I do now).
    Are you suggesting that Perry, with his millions (and his total support by his fellow Texans), is in my bracket?

    Grace @ 90
    The story was reported @1 and I repeated MMc’s link, also.

    Grace @ 92
    The first time, Perry inherited the office from Bush II.
    The Governor’s office may be “weak” by some definitions but he has the power of appointment.
    He’s used it to reward his friends and depose people who dare to disagree with him.
    Someone else commented on the ethics of his having a big pot of state tax money to dole out.

    [There is also the problem of voting for any Democrat if you are anti abortion.
    Perry calls himself a Republican since the state turned in that direction.]

    fws @ 92
    The federal government gives back where it wants to control state policies by doing so.
    The analogy to Greece is tax avoidance by those who have profited out of this debacle,
    (including half Obama’s cabinet, if we can believe the news).

  • Cincinnatus

    The point is that entitlement cuts are absolutely necessary in order to render our debt and deficits sustainable. The credit ratings agencies know this, some Republicans know this, economic analysts know this, the President’s own deficit commission knows this. The time for scare talk–”but think of the seniors!”–is over.

  • Cincinnatus

    The point is that entitlement cuts are absolutely necessary in order to render our debt and deficits sustainable. The credit ratings agencies know this, some Republicans know this, economic analysts know this, the President’s own deficit commission knows this. The time for scare talk–”but think of the seniors!”–is over.

  • Grace

    97 Cincinnatus

    YOU WROTE: “But this doesn’t at all imply that I condone simply cutting payments to current pensioners.”

    I agree with what you posted. The retirement age needs to be raised, etc. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Grace

    97 Cincinnatus

    YOU WROTE: “But this doesn’t at all imply that I condone simply cutting payments to current pensioners.”

    I agree with what you posted. The retirement age needs to be raised, etc. Thanks for the clarification.

  • Grace

    98 – helen

    YOU WROTE: “I am well aware of it, for about 10 years a tithe and more from me wasn’t worth telling the IRS about.
    I paid for my own rent, utilities, car maintenance and food (as I do now).
    Are you suggesting that Perry, with his millions (and his total support by his fellow Texans), is in my bracket?”

    His tax bracket has nothing to do with what he ACTUALLY gives away that you, nor I have any clue. Further more, it’s none of our business what others give to the needy, or any charitable organization – it’s between them and the LORD.

    There are people who help the poor and needy and never report it.

    1 “Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

    2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

    3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

    4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Matthew 6

  • Grace

    98 – helen

    YOU WROTE: “I am well aware of it, for about 10 years a tithe and more from me wasn’t worth telling the IRS about.
    I paid for my own rent, utilities, car maintenance and food (as I do now).
    Are you suggesting that Perry, with his millions (and his total support by his fellow Texans), is in my bracket?”

    His tax bracket has nothing to do with what he ACTUALLY gives away that you, nor I have any clue. Further more, it’s none of our business what others give to the needy, or any charitable organization – it’s between them and the LORD.

    There are people who help the poor and needy and never report it.

    1 “Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

    2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

    3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

    4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Matthew 6

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Uh, the elders didn’t produce enough progeny to pay for the benefits that they voted for themselves back when people averaged 4 kids per family and life expectancy was 65. Now native born folks average less than 2 kids and life expectancy is almost 8o. If you think about it, we are only advocating cutting our own benefits. Folks 40-50 years old in favor of gradually raising the retirement age and means testing Social Security and Medicare are voting to cut their own benefits, not their parents generation. It is a disgrace that the baby boomers expect the few kids they had to support them on and on and on despite their unwillingness to have enough kids to work to support the system.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Uh, the elders didn’t produce enough progeny to pay for the benefits that they voted for themselves back when people averaged 4 kids per family and life expectancy was 65. Now native born folks average less than 2 kids and life expectancy is almost 8o. If you think about it, we are only advocating cutting our own benefits. Folks 40-50 years old in favor of gradually raising the retirement age and means testing Social Security and Medicare are voting to cut their own benefits, not their parents generation. It is a disgrace that the baby boomers expect the few kids they had to support them on and on and on despite their unwillingness to have enough kids to work to support the system.

  • Grace

    88 helen

    YOU WROTE: “As an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.”

    I do not find a commenter named James who stated the above, that’s why I asked you (post 90) for the post # and name of poster.

    YOU POSTED BACK @98 “The story was reported @1 and I repeated MMc’s link, also.”

    I am aware of the link in post #1, but where is the comment regarding James?

  • Grace

    88 helen

    YOU WROTE: “As an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.”

    I do not find a commenter named James who stated the above, that’s why I asked you (post 90) for the post # and name of poster.

    YOU POSTED BACK @98 “The story was reported @1 and I repeated MMc’s link, also.”

    I am aware of the link in post #1, but where is the comment regarding James?

  • helen

    Grace,
    You’ll find James in the Bible, toward the back.
    He’s the one who had things to say about those who claim to be Christian but give no evidence of it in their works. Apparently some indication of works was known even in James’ day when there was no deduction for it. (It didn’t occur to me that he needed identification on this list, especially to you.)

    There are people who help other people without notice or a 501-c
    Maybe some of the other Texans will come up with the opinion that Perry is a philanthropist. :)

    I’m only commenting on a published report, the sort that a Governor who convenes a rather select group of Christians and talks about prayer can expect to be written.

  • helen

    Grace,
    You’ll find James in the Bible, toward the back.
    He’s the one who had things to say about those who claim to be Christian but give no evidence of it in their works. Apparently some indication of works was known even in James’ day when there was no deduction for it. (It didn’t occur to me that he needed identification on this list, especially to you.)

    There are people who help other people without notice or a 501-c
    Maybe some of the other Texans will come up with the opinion that Perry is a philanthropist. :)

    I’m only commenting on a published report, the sort that a Governor who convenes a rather select group of Christians and talks about prayer can expect to be written.

  • Grace

    helen – 104

    YOU WROTE: “You’ll find James in the Bible, toward the back.
    He’s the one who had things to say about those who claim to be Christian but give no evidence of it in their works.”

    Your comment below, is very misleading. I have studied the book of James for years – James wasn’t a “commenter” he was an Apostle, you mixed and matched, and it made no sense.

    YOU WROTE: ““As an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.”

    You might clarify in the future what you want to say!

  • Grace

    helen – 104

    YOU WROTE: “You’ll find James in the Bible, toward the back.
    He’s the one who had things to say about those who claim to be Christian but give no evidence of it in their works.”

    Your comment below, is very misleading. I have studied the book of James for years – James wasn’t a “commenter” he was an Apostle, you mixed and matched, and it made no sense.

    YOU WROTE: ““As an early commenter noted, James wouldn’t be impressed with Perry’s Christianity.”

    You might clarify in the future what you want to say!

  • Grace

    helen

    YOU WROTE: “There are people who help other people without notice or a 501-c
    Maybe some of the other Texans will come up with the opinion that Perry is a philanthropist.”

    I doubt Rick Perry, if he has given away funds to help the poor, needy, and individuals who needed special help, made it clear he wanted no publicity regarding his gifts.

    It all boils down to; it’s none of anyones business how much another person gives away to help the poor, needy, or sick.

  • Grace

    helen

    YOU WROTE: “There are people who help other people without notice or a 501-c
    Maybe some of the other Texans will come up with the opinion that Perry is a philanthropist.”

    I doubt Rick Perry, if he has given away funds to help the poor, needy, and individuals who needed special help, made it clear he wanted no publicity regarding his gifts.

    It all boils down to; it’s none of anyones business how much another person gives away to help the poor, needy, or sick.

  • helen

    It all boils down to; it’s none of anyones business how much another person gives away to help the poor, needy, or sick.

    True, but if you put yourself in the public eye as a Christian,
    you can expect to have the curious (and the hostile) ask, “Where’s the evidence?”

    I apologize for inadvertently leading you astray with my first or second post!
    The commenter was MMc; anyone reading his link might have thought of St James,
    as I did. Or, evidently, might not!

    Good night, all!

  • helen

    It all boils down to; it’s none of anyones business how much another person gives away to help the poor, needy, or sick.

    True, but if you put yourself in the public eye as a Christian,
    you can expect to have the curious (and the hostile) ask, “Where’s the evidence?”

    I apologize for inadvertently leading you astray with my first or second post!
    The commenter was MMc; anyone reading his link might have thought of St James,
    as I did. Or, evidently, might not!

    Good night, all!

  • Grace

    helen – 107

    “True, but if you put yourself in the public eye as a Christian,you can expect to have the curious (and the hostile) ask, “Where’s the evidence?””

    “Where’s the evidence” ? —

    I as a Christian, am not required to ‘PROVE how much I have given to others, whether I run for public office or not – giving to others is, by the Scripture I quoted earlier from Matthew 6, sufficient for an answer – it is between myself, my husband and God Almighty. I don’t report to others regarding our gifts, offered to others because of their need –

    The ‘world will always ask for things they have no right to. If it means losing something, then so be it,….. I would still stand my ground upon what I believe .. Matthew 6 … by our LORD Jesus Christ, HE trumps all those in the world.

  • Grace

    helen – 107

    “True, but if you put yourself in the public eye as a Christian,you can expect to have the curious (and the hostile) ask, “Where’s the evidence?””

    “Where’s the evidence” ? —

    I as a Christian, am not required to ‘PROVE how much I have given to others, whether I run for public office or not – giving to others is, by the Scripture I quoted earlier from Matthew 6, sufficient for an answer – it is between myself, my husband and God Almighty. I don’t report to others regarding our gifts, offered to others because of their need –

    The ‘world will always ask for things they have no right to. If it means losing something, then so be it,….. I would still stand my ground upon what I believe .. Matthew 6 … by our LORD Jesus Christ, HE trumps all those in the world.

  • Gary

    Two observations:

    1. Most of the criticism of Perry here so far has been to question whether he’s a “true” conservative, meaning doubt has been cast on whether or not he’s far enough to the right. Holy cats, people, doesn’t anyone here understand the entire GOP field is shifted too far to the right?! I don’t think the country wants or needs a president who would act on the ideas and rhetoric of conservatism’s most right-leaning ideologues.

    2. Concerning the idea of God “calling” any of them to be a candidate, I agree with the point that’s been made already that it represents pandering, not mysticism, and reflects the language of American Evangelicalism. Pastor Lehmann’s way of narrowly defining the word “call” is also what I was taught at the seminary and brings helpful clarity when discussing the pastoral ministry. But in general, people’s notions of what constitutes a calling from God are as varied as their ideas about what God is like in the first place. And I don’t see that we can insist that an English word means only and exactly what it means in Scripture. You have to know what any particular word means _in_ Scripture in order to correctly interpret Scripture, but “out in the wild” a word’s meaning is largely defined by convention/consensus.

  • Gary

    Two observations:

    1. Most of the criticism of Perry here so far has been to question whether he’s a “true” conservative, meaning doubt has been cast on whether or not he’s far enough to the right. Holy cats, people, doesn’t anyone here understand the entire GOP field is shifted too far to the right?! I don’t think the country wants or needs a president who would act on the ideas and rhetoric of conservatism’s most right-leaning ideologues.

    2. Concerning the idea of God “calling” any of them to be a candidate, I agree with the point that’s been made already that it represents pandering, not mysticism, and reflects the language of American Evangelicalism. Pastor Lehmann’s way of narrowly defining the word “call” is also what I was taught at the seminary and brings helpful clarity when discussing the pastoral ministry. But in general, people’s notions of what constitutes a calling from God are as varied as their ideas about what God is like in the first place. And I don’t see that we can insist that an English word means only and exactly what it means in Scripture. You have to know what any particular word means _in_ Scripture in order to correctly interpret Scripture, but “out in the wild” a word’s meaning is largely defined by convention/consensus.

  • John C

    Governor Perry may have jeopardized his chances at gaining the Republican nomination by his association with some seriously deluded religious leaders from the “New Apolistic Reformation” at his recent prayer rally.
    The Governor shared the stage with Alice Patterson who believes the Democratic and Republican Parties are controlled by demonic spirits.
    The Democrats are controlled by ‘Jezebel’ via a network of demonic principalities that demand allegiance, worship and the shedding of innocent blood. On the other hand, Republicans are controlled by ‘Ahab’ which makes GOP leaders passive and yield to intimidation instead of standing up for Godly principles.
    Sounds right to me.

  • John C

    Governor Perry may have jeopardized his chances at gaining the Republican nomination by his association with some seriously deluded religious leaders from the “New Apolistic Reformation” at his recent prayer rally.
    The Governor shared the stage with Alice Patterson who believes the Democratic and Republican Parties are controlled by demonic spirits.
    The Democrats are controlled by ‘Jezebel’ via a network of demonic principalities that demand allegiance, worship and the shedding of innocent blood. On the other hand, Republicans are controlled by ‘Ahab’ which makes GOP leaders passive and yield to intimidation instead of standing up for Godly principles.
    Sounds right to me.

  • Grace

    The anxious progressives, …. easier to identify ‘PROGS’ – have arrived, after Rick Perry announces his candidacy for president.

    Alice Patterson? —– OR what anyone was taught in seminary to skew the statements made by Perry, is nothing more than an ANXIOUS attempt to circumvent the truth –

    FROG jumping is in season – one only need look at the PROGS -

    The country is worn sick and tired of lies and games, watched for two and half years. FLIP FLOP doesn’t cover the slop we’ve been given for an answer over and over by the progressive left.

    I will call the ‘anxious progressives’ PROGS hence forth.

    The PROG’s can ‘hit all the blogs on the internet, but the rhetoric is not persuasive or effective – it lacks serious consideration, and most of all it’s vacuous.

    The reason PROGS are on our ‘doorstep ? ; Rick Perry might very well be the next presidential candidate. That means the gig is up … this country will not be run by a president who throws money out the Oval window by the truck load, and has the nerve to ask for more.

  • Grace

    The anxious progressives, …. easier to identify ‘PROGS’ – have arrived, after Rick Perry announces his candidacy for president.

    Alice Patterson? —– OR what anyone was taught in seminary to skew the statements made by Perry, is nothing more than an ANXIOUS attempt to circumvent the truth –

    FROG jumping is in season – one only need look at the PROGS -

    The country is worn sick and tired of lies and games, watched for two and half years. FLIP FLOP doesn’t cover the slop we’ve been given for an answer over and over by the progressive left.

    I will call the ‘anxious progressives’ PROGS hence forth.

    The PROG’s can ‘hit all the blogs on the internet, but the rhetoric is not persuasive or effective – it lacks serious consideration, and most of all it’s vacuous.

    The reason PROGS are on our ‘doorstep ? ; Rick Perry might very well be the next presidential candidate. That means the gig is up … this country will not be run by a president who throws money out the Oval window by the truck load, and has the nerve to ask for more.

  • helen

    It’s a long way from “candidate” to President, USA!

    It’s expensive, too, and no matter how they prattle about being “for the people”,
    they usually mean “the people who paid their way”.
    [Red or Blue, it's likely to be the same "people."]

  • helen

    It’s a long way from “candidate” to President, USA!

    It’s expensive, too, and no matter how they prattle about being “for the people”,
    they usually mean “the people who paid their way”.
    [Red or Blue, it's likely to be the same "people."]

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Red or Blue, it’s likely to be the same “people.”

    That really is the key to understanding it all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Red or Blue, it’s likely to be the same “people.”

    That really is the key to understanding it all.

  • Bob

    John C #110

    There’s been plenty writetn about the New Apostolic Reformation crowd. they’re seriously deluded theological authoritarian nutjobs.

    It will be interesting to see how confessional Lutherans and others on here decide about Rick Perry. Many of them appear to be in love with him and his points of view.

    Some possible rationalizations:

    1 — “We’re all sinners.”
    2– Use the two-kingdoms to rationalize voting for him.
    3 — Let God separate the wheat from the chaff.
    4 — Well, he may suck, but Obama is the Antichrist.
    5 –Your own favorite rationalization

    Perry is openly associating with theological heretics and nitwits. Even worse, many of them are theocrats.

    We’ll see where the loyalties fall.

  • Bob

    John C #110

    There’s been plenty writetn about the New Apostolic Reformation crowd. they’re seriously deluded theological authoritarian nutjobs.

    It will be interesting to see how confessional Lutherans and others on here decide about Rick Perry. Many of them appear to be in love with him and his points of view.

    Some possible rationalizations:

    1 — “We’re all sinners.”
    2– Use the two-kingdoms to rationalize voting for him.
    3 — Let God separate the wheat from the chaff.
    4 — Well, he may suck, but Obama is the Antichrist.
    5 –Your own favorite rationalization

    Perry is openly associating with theological heretics and nitwits. Even worse, many of them are theocrats.

    We’ll see where the loyalties fall.

  • Cincinnatus

    Bob@114:

    Odd finding myself defending Perry, whom I otherwise find an annoying hack.

    But, Bob, I assume you are a confessional Lutheran based upon your comment. How many confessional Lutheran Presidents have we had? None? Doesn’t that mean essentially all of our Presidents have been heretics? Not a one of them would be eligible to commune at the table in an LCMS parish. Indeed, some of our Presidents have been deists and unitarians.

    Honestly, I don’t know why Perry’s pandering to Texas evangelicals is suddenly so offensive to us. Sure, the general trend is offensive, I suppose. But a) 25% of the American population considers itself to be the sort of evangelical Perry is seeking to attract and b) Presidential candidates, both Democrat and Republican (especially Republican) have been pandering to evangelicals for about thirty years–35 if we count Carter. Perry is a consummate politician (insult? yes.). And his pandering isn’t even as offensive as that exemplified by Huckabee, Bachmann, etc.

  • Cincinnatus

    Bob@114:

    Odd finding myself defending Perry, whom I otherwise find an annoying hack.

    But, Bob, I assume you are a confessional Lutheran based upon your comment. How many confessional Lutheran Presidents have we had? None? Doesn’t that mean essentially all of our Presidents have been heretics? Not a one of them would be eligible to commune at the table in an LCMS parish. Indeed, some of our Presidents have been deists and unitarians.

    Honestly, I don’t know why Perry’s pandering to Texas evangelicals is suddenly so offensive to us. Sure, the general trend is offensive, I suppose. But a) 25% of the American population considers itself to be the sort of evangelical Perry is seeking to attract and b) Presidential candidates, both Democrat and Republican (especially Republican) have been pandering to evangelicals for about thirty years–35 if we count Carter. Perry is a consummate politician (insult? yes.). And his pandering isn’t even as offensive as that exemplified by Huckabee, Bachmann, etc.

  • Bob

    Cincinattus,

    You miss my point.

    There’s a huge chasm between someone holding a heterodox (suborthodox) confession of the Faith and a heretic. Perry’s associating with people who deny that Scripture is final authority. They make all types of “prophecies” and pronouncments in the name of the Lord. This is blasphemy. (I’m not talking about all evangelicals, but specifically the New Apolostolic Reformation crowd that were prominent at the recent rally).

    Whether an LCMSer is in the White House has nothing to do with anything. Besides, we all know that a confessional Lutheran could never be President — just look at what happened recently when Michelle Bachmann threw the WELS under the bus.

  • Bob

    Cincinattus,

    You miss my point.

    There’s a huge chasm between someone holding a heterodox (suborthodox) confession of the Faith and a heretic. Perry’s associating with people who deny that Scripture is final authority. They make all types of “prophecies” and pronouncments in the name of the Lord. This is blasphemy. (I’m not talking about all evangelicals, but specifically the New Apolostolic Reformation crowd that were prominent at the recent rally).

    Whether an LCMSer is in the White House has nothing to do with anything. Besides, we all know that a confessional Lutheran could never be President — just look at what happened recently when Michelle Bachmann threw the WELS under the bus.

  • Another Kerner

    Bob @ #114….

    Your list of possible rationalizations, Point 4 ?!!
    Really??

    No confessional Lutheran who has read the Book of Concord believes that Obama is the Anti-christ.

    Nor does a Calvinist who has studied the Westminster Confession, Chapter XXV, paragraph VI.

  • Another Kerner

    Bob @ #114….

    Your list of possible rationalizations, Point 4 ?!!
    Really??

    No confessional Lutheran who has read the Book of Concord believes that Obama is the Anti-christ.

    Nor does a Calvinist who has studied the Westminster Confession, Chapter XXV, paragraph VI.

  • Bob

    AJM

    Don’t be so literal! Joke!

  • Bob

    AJM

    Don’t be so literal! Joke!

  • katy

    My point for posting the articles at #37 wasn’t to question Perry’s personal orthodoxy or to accuse the NA’s with blasphemy. Because the New Apostles’ theology has become so politically driven recently (my sister is involved in IHOP, so I’ve heard from her mouth the sort of stuff they are teaching her about this election..), I am concerned as a voter with–if he is influenced by or indebted to these guys–what positions and actions he will take if elected. Or maybe is just using them.

  • katy

    My point for posting the articles at #37 wasn’t to question Perry’s personal orthodoxy or to accuse the NA’s with blasphemy. Because the New Apostles’ theology has become so politically driven recently (my sister is involved in IHOP, so I’ve heard from her mouth the sort of stuff they are teaching her about this election..), I am concerned as a voter with–if he is influenced by or indebted to these guys–what positions and actions he will take if elected. Or maybe is just using them.

  • Matt Jamison

    So are Rick Perry’s religious associations worse than Romney’s (LDS Establishment) or Obama’s (Jeremiah Wright)? Bachmann ran from confessional Lutheranism just as fast as she could once it became a political liability.

    In order to be elected president, or even governor of Texas, you have hold hands with a lot of different characters. Doctrinal purity is important in a pastor, much less so in a politician.

    Perry has a 10-year record running a state with a population greater than that of Australia. In a record that substantive, there will be some stinkers. Michelle Bachmann and Ron Paul have never run anything bigger than a congressional staff.

  • Matt Jamison

    So are Rick Perry’s religious associations worse than Romney’s (LDS Establishment) or Obama’s (Jeremiah Wright)? Bachmann ran from confessional Lutheranism just as fast as she could once it became a political liability.

    In order to be elected president, or even governor of Texas, you have hold hands with a lot of different characters. Doctrinal purity is important in a pastor, much less so in a politician.

    Perry has a 10-year record running a state with a population greater than that of Australia. In a record that substantive, there will be some stinkers. Michelle Bachmann and Ron Paul have never run anything bigger than a congressional staff.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Perry is openly associating with theological heretics and nitwits.”

    aka voters

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Perry is openly associating with theological heretics and nitwits.”

    aka voters

  • fws

    Pr Lehman and others as to “being called”.

    I would propose that the Lutheran Confessions consider the Divine call of a pastor as being absolutely no different than the call of anyone to any vocation intrinsically.

    The vocation is different with unique duties to be sure, but the call itself is no different at all.

    In the Apology article “on the Church” the confessions instruct us that the Visible Holy Catholic Church is an Earthly Kingdom, right hand government like any other government including the civil government. This is the proper and confessional distinction of Law and Gospel in it’s other modality called the Two Kingdoms.

  • fws

    Pr Lehman and others as to “being called”.

    I would propose that the Lutheran Confessions consider the Divine call of a pastor as being absolutely no different than the call of anyone to any vocation intrinsically.

    The vocation is different with unique duties to be sure, but the call itself is no different at all.

    In the Apology article “on the Church” the confessions instruct us that the Visible Holy Catholic Church is an Earthly Kingdom, right hand government like any other government including the civil government. This is the proper and confessional distinction of Law and Gospel in it’s other modality called the Two Kingdoms.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @122

    Beautifully clear and succinct. Thanks, fws!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @122

    Beautifully clear and succinct. Thanks, fws!

  • fws

    So from what I just said, how does anyone know they are called into their vocationS?

    Luther in is instructions for Private Confession says this “Consider your station in life according to the 10 commandments”

    Luther is asking us to consider what relationships God has placed us into in life. And we can be certain that if we have been placed there, then we are called into that vocation.

    Now what about those men and women who are faced with determining what their call is? Like someone seeking political office, or someone deciding what to study in college and which career to pursue or what a pastor is to do when he has been called to serve somewhere and then he receives a call to serve somewhere else? How does he know, for certain, where God will be most pleased for him or her to serve?

    Think practical. What are my gifts? Where is the need the greatest that my gifts enable me to meet? Maybe life presents me with needs of others, and I don’t feel I have the gifts but I am presented with some Good Samaritan scenario. There is an urgent need, there is no one else around to attend to that need… so then Love that is the intent or purpose of the Law is to guide us.

    I would suggest that normally, we know we are called into a role because others recognize that we belong in that role. Being called is about a) serving others , and so it is necessarily about b) relationships, and…

    c) it is about not overstepping and assuming some role or authority that is not what we are called to do. This overstepping part is where the sin comes in. And so we consider our roles in light of the 10 commandments which tell us basically to mind to our own business or calling and stay out of the personal lives, businesses and property of others. (don’t hurt or harm your neigbor), and this is coupled with the restraint in knowing who it is we are to help and befriend and how by considering 1) what our various vocations/relationships are and 2) what the 10 commandments tell us are the limits of our responsibilities in those relationships.

  • fws

    So from what I just said, how does anyone know they are called into their vocationS?

    Luther in is instructions for Private Confession says this “Consider your station in life according to the 10 commandments”

    Luther is asking us to consider what relationships God has placed us into in life. And we can be certain that if we have been placed there, then we are called into that vocation.

    Now what about those men and women who are faced with determining what their call is? Like someone seeking political office, or someone deciding what to study in college and which career to pursue or what a pastor is to do when he has been called to serve somewhere and then he receives a call to serve somewhere else? How does he know, for certain, where God will be most pleased for him or her to serve?

    Think practical. What are my gifts? Where is the need the greatest that my gifts enable me to meet? Maybe life presents me with needs of others, and I don’t feel I have the gifts but I am presented with some Good Samaritan scenario. There is an urgent need, there is no one else around to attend to that need… so then Love that is the intent or purpose of the Law is to guide us.

    I would suggest that normally, we know we are called into a role because others recognize that we belong in that role. Being called is about a) serving others , and so it is necessarily about b) relationships, and…

    c) it is about not overstepping and assuming some role or authority that is not what we are called to do. This overstepping part is where the sin comes in. And so we consider our roles in light of the 10 commandments which tell us basically to mind to our own business or calling and stay out of the personal lives, businesses and property of others. (don’t hurt or harm your neigbor), and this is coupled with the restraint in knowing who it is we are to help and befriend and how by considering 1) what our various vocations/relationships are and 2) what the 10 commandments tell us are the limits of our responsibilities in those relationships.

  • kerner

    Bob @116:

    You said:

    “There’s a huge chasm between someone holding a heterodox (suborthodox) confession of the Faith and a heretic. Perry’s associating with people who deny that Scripture is final authority. They make all types of “prophecies” and pronouncments in the name of the Lord. This is blasphemy.”

    Couldn’t confessional Lutherans have said that about John Kennedy? Or Mitt Romney? Charismatics don’t have a monopoly on denying that Scripture is the final authority, nor on making pronouncements “in the name of the Lord”. Plenty of old and well established heterodox religions do one or the other or both as a matter of course.

    I don’t want to make assumptions about you, but is it possible that you voted or a Democratic candidate for president during the last 50 years or so. If you did, how many of them belonged to a Church that preached that the Bible was the “final authority”? I mean, are you going to condemn anyone who voted for President Obama (see Wright, Jeremiah) with the same furvor we are hearing from you now?

  • kerner

    Bob @116:

    You said:

    “There’s a huge chasm between someone holding a heterodox (suborthodox) confession of the Faith and a heretic. Perry’s associating with people who deny that Scripture is final authority. They make all types of “prophecies” and pronouncments in the name of the Lord. This is blasphemy.”

    Couldn’t confessional Lutherans have said that about John Kennedy? Or Mitt Romney? Charismatics don’t have a monopoly on denying that Scripture is the final authority, nor on making pronouncements “in the name of the Lord”. Plenty of old and well established heterodox religions do one or the other or both as a matter of course.

    I don’t want to make assumptions about you, but is it possible that you voted or a Democratic candidate for president during the last 50 years or so. If you did, how many of them belonged to a Church that preached that the Bible was the “final authority”? I mean, are you going to condemn anyone who voted for President Obama (see Wright, Jeremiah) with the same furvor we are hearing from you now?

  • fws

    kerner @ 125

    what he says.

    The earthly kingdom of the Law that we all live in is all about our works, apart from faith.

    We are to judge all others, including politicians, strictly according to what they do.

    We are to be blind as to whether they are black, white, rastafarian, mormon, gay, or even republican or democrat. This is true as long as theythemselves do not explicitly make a connection between what they promise to do and one of those categories in a way we believe will compromise the common welfare.

    We can judge anyone by what they promise to do. Their promise is implicit in whatever they claim to be their philosophy or religion strictly as they inform us it will dictate what they promise to do.

    But then, as with anyone else, what people say and promise is often not what they do. And we judge people here on earth, strictly, by what they do. Their faith or ours has nothing to do with this part of our existence. These things will all perish with the earth. That is why I can say that word “all”.

    And then we , as Christians know that God will work his Goodness and Mercy in with and under whatever government He sends us by way of our votes. And so we respect that government not as a government that is “of and by” the people, but rather a government “of and by ” God “for the people”.

    Our votes are the instrument of God. The fact that we vote for them does not mean it is right to sit in judgement of them.

  • fws

    kerner @ 125

    what he says.

    The earthly kingdom of the Law that we all live in is all about our works, apart from faith.

    We are to judge all others, including politicians, strictly according to what they do.

    We are to be blind as to whether they are black, white, rastafarian, mormon, gay, or even republican or democrat. This is true as long as theythemselves do not explicitly make a connection between what they promise to do and one of those categories in a way we believe will compromise the common welfare.

    We can judge anyone by what they promise to do. Their promise is implicit in whatever they claim to be their philosophy or religion strictly as they inform us it will dictate what they promise to do.

    But then, as with anyone else, what people say and promise is often not what they do. And we judge people here on earth, strictly, by what they do. Their faith or ours has nothing to do with this part of our existence. These things will all perish with the earth. That is why I can say that word “all”.

    And then we , as Christians know that God will work his Goodness and Mercy in with and under whatever government He sends us by way of our votes. And so we respect that government not as a government that is “of and by” the people, but rather a government “of and by ” God “for the people”.

    Our votes are the instrument of God. The fact that we vote for them does not mean it is right to sit in judgement of them.

  • fws

    cincinnatus @ 94 your post 94 is here:

    http://www.geneveith.com/2011/08/12/rick-perry-is-running-for-president/#comment-124321

    You responded to my post at 93 which is here: http://www.geneveith.com/2011/08/12/rick-perry-is-running-for-president/#comment-124319

    I linked to an article talking about the massive deficits that Greece, er Texas has. You said that the silver bullet is for Governor Perry and the republican controlled Texas Legislature is to cut spending.

    Do you really think this is gonna happen? Would you agree that this is how Perry and the Republicans would really put their money where their mouth is and put their economic theories to the test?

  • fws

    cincinnatus @ 94 your post 94 is here:

    http://www.geneveith.com/2011/08/12/rick-perry-is-running-for-president/#comment-124321

    You responded to my post at 93 which is here: http://www.geneveith.com/2011/08/12/rick-perry-is-running-for-president/#comment-124319

    I linked to an article talking about the massive deficits that Greece, er Texas has. You said that the silver bullet is for Governor Perry and the republican controlled Texas Legislature is to cut spending.

    Do you really think this is gonna happen? Would you agree that this is how Perry and the Republicans would really put their money where their mouth is and put their economic theories to the test?

  • fws

    Of course Perry will come out with all the jobs Texas is creating, ignoring the fact that most of that is coming from the oil boom.

    So Obama would be well to challenge Perry just on that point eh? as in… “Ok, you republicans say that the proper way to balance a budget and eliminate deficit spending is to cut and to not raise taxes.

    Do. It.

    If you really mean it. You don’t do it because you are not serious. You are pandering.”

    That is how i would respond to Perry if I were GW Bush, er.. I mean… Obama.

  • fws

    Of course Perry will come out with all the jobs Texas is creating, ignoring the fact that most of that is coming from the oil boom.

    So Obama would be well to challenge Perry just on that point eh? as in… “Ok, you republicans say that the proper way to balance a budget and eliminate deficit spending is to cut and to not raise taxes.

    Do. It.

    If you really mean it. You don’t do it because you are not serious. You are pandering.”

    That is how i would respond to Perry if I were GW Bush, er.. I mean… Obama.

  • Cincinnatus

    fws@127: “Do you really think this is gonna happen?”

    Where? At the state level, it already has. Scott Walker has successfully slashed spending and balanced a budget that previously suffered a $3.6 billion deficit. No, he didn’t make many friends. Chris Christie in New Jersey is cutting spending. Mitch Daniels has done a fairly good job of the same. Texas is also cutting spending. Would this happen at the national level? I’ve no idea, and we have to remember that spending decisions are ultimately made by Congress, not the President. In short, you often complain about Republicans being the “borrow and spend” party, fws. And it’s true at the Congressional level. But it seems you haven’t taken a gander at state governments from your outpost in Brasil, sir.

    Of course, it helps that Texas boasts a small state government to begin with.

    Also, fws, I say, as I’ve said to tODD, don’t underestimate the stupidity of the American voter. Perry can run on the claim that he has successfully presided over a growing economy in Texas. He can claim to have created jobs–or better he can say what he’s already been saying: in Texas, he kept state government largely out of the way so the economy could do its work. Ta da! He doesn’t have to claim that he “created” all those oil jobs, because Republicans don’t claim to create jobs directly. They purport to advance economic policies that encourage job growth. Perry can make such claims. In other words, peripheral facts aren’t convincing. It would take a lecture the most voters are too impatient to hear in order to explain why exactly Perry has little relation to his state’s successful economy. What matters is that it is successful.

    And even if he did claim to create those oil jobs? Who cares. Texas Republicans will just be glad to have the jobs, and many voters everywhere else will just say, “Well, it’s better than My State.” And it is.

    Look, I’m not a Perry fan. I won’t vote for him. And I know many Texan Republicans who can’t stand the guy. But I do think he has a plausible platform upon which to challenge Obama viscerally on the issues du jour.

  • Cincinnatus

    fws@127: “Do you really think this is gonna happen?”

    Where? At the state level, it already has. Scott Walker has successfully slashed spending and balanced a budget that previously suffered a $3.6 billion deficit. No, he didn’t make many friends. Chris Christie in New Jersey is cutting spending. Mitch Daniels has done a fairly good job of the same. Texas is also cutting spending. Would this happen at the national level? I’ve no idea, and we have to remember that spending decisions are ultimately made by Congress, not the President. In short, you often complain about Republicans being the “borrow and spend” party, fws. And it’s true at the Congressional level. But it seems you haven’t taken a gander at state governments from your outpost in Brasil, sir.

    Of course, it helps that Texas boasts a small state government to begin with.

    Also, fws, I say, as I’ve said to tODD, don’t underestimate the stupidity of the American voter. Perry can run on the claim that he has successfully presided over a growing economy in Texas. He can claim to have created jobs–or better he can say what he’s already been saying: in Texas, he kept state government largely out of the way so the economy could do its work. Ta da! He doesn’t have to claim that he “created” all those oil jobs, because Republicans don’t claim to create jobs directly. They purport to advance economic policies that encourage job growth. Perry can make such claims. In other words, peripheral facts aren’t convincing. It would take a lecture the most voters are too impatient to hear in order to explain why exactly Perry has little relation to his state’s successful economy. What matters is that it is successful.

    And even if he did claim to create those oil jobs? Who cares. Texas Republicans will just be glad to have the jobs, and many voters everywhere else will just say, “Well, it’s better than My State.” And it is.

    Look, I’m not a Perry fan. I won’t vote for him. And I know many Texan Republicans who can’t stand the guy. But I do think he has a plausible platform upon which to challenge Obama viscerally on the issues du jour.

  • fws

    and then there is this on Perry…

    Is this true? 1) Will the republicans in Texas have to increase taxes and 2) are they papering over the hard choices until 2013?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/rick-perrys-budget-sleight-of-hand/2011/08/15/gIQAuiGCHJ_blog.html

    Is anyone here able to evaluate this article as to its factuality?

  • fws

    and then there is this on Perry…

    Is this true? 1) Will the republicans in Texas have to increase taxes and 2) are they papering over the hard choices until 2013?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/rick-perrys-budget-sleight-of-hand/2011/08/15/gIQAuiGCHJ_blog.html

    Is anyone here able to evaluate this article as to its factuality?

  • DonS

    FWS @ 130: Almost certainly it’s true. As is the case for practically every government in the U.S., including the federal government. Have you ever wondered why estimated taxes are due April 15, June 15, September 15, and January 15? Why not July 15 and October 15, which would make the most sense — 15 days after the end of each quarter? The reason? The new federal budget starts October 1 each year, so Congress at some point in the distant past made one year’s budget look a lot better by moving up the estimated payment dates one month each for July and October, so that the October payment date fell before the end of the fiscal year. So now all of us who pay estimated taxes get to turn around and make our June payment only two months after the April payment, forevermore.

    Government accounting, if done in the private sector, under laws government enforces on private enterprise but does not enforce for itself, would result in imprisonment for the accountants.

    If you want to see a state budget that puts the one in Texas to shame, insofar as it papers over deficits with fabricated revenue, creative bookeeping delays for outlays, and the like, try Jerry Brown’s California budget. But, you won’t see Ezra Klein talking about that.

  • DonS

    FWS @ 130: Almost certainly it’s true. As is the case for practically every government in the U.S., including the federal government. Have you ever wondered why estimated taxes are due April 15, June 15, September 15, and January 15? Why not July 15 and October 15, which would make the most sense — 15 days after the end of each quarter? The reason? The new federal budget starts October 1 each year, so Congress at some point in the distant past made one year’s budget look a lot better by moving up the estimated payment dates one month each for July and October, so that the October payment date fell before the end of the fiscal year. So now all of us who pay estimated taxes get to turn around and make our June payment only two months after the April payment, forevermore.

    Government accounting, if done in the private sector, under laws government enforces on private enterprise but does not enforce for itself, would result in imprisonment for the accountants.

    If you want to see a state budget that puts the one in Texas to shame, insofar as it papers over deficits with fabricated revenue, creative bookeeping delays for outlays, and the like, try Jerry Brown’s California budget. But, you won’t see Ezra Klein talking about that.

  • fws

    Don @131

    Ah. california. but that state is governed by a tax and spend liberal democrat. So we can hold up california as the result of Democratic policies and how ruinous they are.

    So there are states now controlled by the republicans. Like Texas. What do you predict they will do with their budget and their structural shortfall? is there any state , now controlled by republicans, that you would hold up as a model of republican ideals? if not…. why not?

  • fws

    Don @131

    Ah. california. but that state is governed by a tax and spend liberal democrat. So we can hold up california as the result of Democratic policies and how ruinous they are.

    So there are states now controlled by the republicans. Like Texas. What do you predict they will do with their budget and their structural shortfall? is there any state , now controlled by republicans, that you would hold up as a model of republican ideals? if not…. why not?

  • kerner

    fws @ 132:

    Well, you could look at Wisconsin. And I say that knowing that those principles have been in place for such a short time that no one can be sure about the long term results.

    Until the 2010 elections, both houses of the legislature and the governor’s office were all controlled by Democrats. Like California, the State went deep into debt and had to do illegal things (like borrow from the transportation fund and the med mal victims compensation fund) to pay some of the bills.

    Now the Republicans control both houses of the legislature and the governor’s office. They addressed the problem by cutting expenses. They did this not only by cutting the raw amount of budget items such as state aid to local governments. What the Repblicans have done was to effectively decease the compensation of each individual government worker (I think it only honest to admit that making each worker contribute to his/her pension and health care plan effectively reduces that worker’s bottom line). Also, they Republicans have removed the govt. unions’ ability to negotiate work rules and benefits. Some of these had resulted in ridiculous costs to government. Finally, the Republicans substantially reduced the sources of funding employed by the govt. unions, and govt. workers will now vote every year to re-certify, or get rid of, their unions.

    We’ll see how it goes, but preliminary indications are promising. While some school districts who extended employment contracts prior to the effective date of he reforms are hurting, those who embraced the Republican reforms are reporting substantial surpluses and are not laying off any govt. employees. Even the City of Milwaukee, hardly a hotbed of conservatism, has had to admit that it now has an additional $13M-$26M available, even though state aid was cut.

    Despite furious attempts by the Dems and unions to prevent the reforms, the people of Wisconsin seem willing to give these reforms a chance to work. It may very well turn out that the solution to government deficit spending was to simply pay government workers less money (mainly by making them pay into their own retirement and health care systems, which is what private sector employees already do).

    Could the Wisconsin solution work at the federal level? It would certainly take the right Congress and President to adopt such a policy. I can’t imagine the Democrats doing it. But if we elect enough conservative Republicans, maybe it can be done. I see no reason not to try.

  • kerner

    fws @ 132:

    Well, you could look at Wisconsin. And I say that knowing that those principles have been in place for such a short time that no one can be sure about the long term results.

    Until the 2010 elections, both houses of the legislature and the governor’s office were all controlled by Democrats. Like California, the State went deep into debt and had to do illegal things (like borrow from the transportation fund and the med mal victims compensation fund) to pay some of the bills.

    Now the Republicans control both houses of the legislature and the governor’s office. They addressed the problem by cutting expenses. They did this not only by cutting the raw amount of budget items such as state aid to local governments. What the Repblicans have done was to effectively decease the compensation of each individual government worker (I think it only honest to admit that making each worker contribute to his/her pension and health care plan effectively reduces that worker’s bottom line). Also, they Republicans have removed the govt. unions’ ability to negotiate work rules and benefits. Some of these had resulted in ridiculous costs to government. Finally, the Republicans substantially reduced the sources of funding employed by the govt. unions, and govt. workers will now vote every year to re-certify, or get rid of, their unions.

    We’ll see how it goes, but preliminary indications are promising. While some school districts who extended employment contracts prior to the effective date of he reforms are hurting, those who embraced the Republican reforms are reporting substantial surpluses and are not laying off any govt. employees. Even the City of Milwaukee, hardly a hotbed of conservatism, has had to admit that it now has an additional $13M-$26M available, even though state aid was cut.

    Despite furious attempts by the Dems and unions to prevent the reforms, the people of Wisconsin seem willing to give these reforms a chance to work. It may very well turn out that the solution to government deficit spending was to simply pay government workers less money (mainly by making them pay into their own retirement and health care systems, which is what private sector employees already do).

    Could the Wisconsin solution work at the federal level? It would certainly take the right Congress and President to adopt such a policy. I can’t imagine the Democrats doing it. But if we elect enough conservative Republicans, maybe it can be done. I see no reason not to try.

  • Cincinnatus

    fws@132: I’ll second kerner. Have you noticed? I’ve cited Wisconsin and other fiscally sound Republican states several times in this thread, and yet you keep ignoring such examples, instead implying that Perry’s Texas is an example of why Republicans are actually hypocrites who can’t govern any better than Democrats.

    As kerner and I have attempted to point out, there is burgeoning evidence that certain Republican policies are, indeed, better than Democratic policies.

    /no, I’m not a Republican

  • Cincinnatus

    fws@132: I’ll second kerner. Have you noticed? I’ve cited Wisconsin and other fiscally sound Republican states several times in this thread, and yet you keep ignoring such examples, instead implying that Perry’s Texas is an example of why Republicans are actually hypocrites who can’t govern any better than Democrats.

    As kerner and I have attempted to point out, there is burgeoning evidence that certain Republican policies are, indeed, better than Democratic policies.

    /no, I’m not a Republican

  • Grace

    GOOD NEWS!

    GOP Primary: Perry 29%, Romney 18%, Bachmann 13%

    Tuesday, August 16, 2011

    “Texas Governor Rick Perry, the new face in the race for the 2012 Republican presidential nomination, has jumped to a double-digit lead over Mitt Romney and Michele Bachmann with the other announced candidates trailing even further behind.

    Perry 29%, Romney 18%, Bachmann 13%

  • Grace

    GOOD NEWS!

    GOP Primary: Perry 29%, Romney 18%, Bachmann 13%

    Tuesday, August 16, 2011

    “Texas Governor Rick Perry, the new face in the race for the 2012 Republican presidential nomination, has jumped to a double-digit lead over Mitt Romney and Michele Bachmann with the other announced candidates trailing even further behind.

    Perry 29%, Romney 18%, Bachmann 13%

  • fws

    ok. cinn and kerner. This is what I was hoping some state would do. that they would actually try to implement these ideas and see how they work out. this is an underused advantage of our federal system.

    The old ideas dont seem to be working out too well. So it is time to try something new. Better to experiment at the state rather than at the federal level.

    I hope it works out for Wisconsin. I really sincerely do. and no I am not a republican either.

  • fws

    ok. cinn and kerner. This is what I was hoping some state would do. that they would actually try to implement these ideas and see how they work out. this is an underused advantage of our federal system.

    The old ideas dont seem to be working out too well. So it is time to try something new. Better to experiment at the state rather than at the federal level.

    I hope it works out for Wisconsin. I really sincerely do. and no I am not a republican either.


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