Awkward: Commemorating the War of 1812

Next year marks the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812.   We have been commemorating the Civil War and tend to mark significant anniversaries of other major events in American history.  But not much is being planned for this one.  Except in Canada, which is planning a big celebration of how they defeated the American invaders.  From a piece by David Shribman:

What is the best way to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812? . . . .

How does Canada celebrate its victories over American invaders without alienating its biggest trading partner? How does the United States approach a war in which its principal adversary, Great Britain, is now one of its closest friends? And do the British pause to mark this event at all, given that for them it was but a brief, minor sideshow in the far more important Napoleonic Wars?

Along with the Korean War, the War of 1812, which most Americans remember dimly as being about impressment on the high seas and freedom of movement on the Great Lakes, is often called the Forgotten War.

It is sad  that Americans are so forgetful, for this conflict, which lasted roughly two and a half years, gave the United States its national anthem and its national identity, cemented in large measure the nation’s cultural and geographical boundaries, ushered in 200 years of peace with Britain and Canada, made the White House white and provided durable heroes such as Andrew Jackson, William Henry Harrison, Zachary Taylor, Oliver Hazard Perry and Tecumseh.

It ended in virtual stalemate — no side lost substantial territory except, of course, the Indians — and was a decidedly mixed experience for Americans, whose generals were execrable, whose militia didn’t fight well and whose twin theories of warfare (that the French Canadians would rush to the U.S. side and that Canada would collapse into American arms) were ludicrous.

“The acquisition of Canada this year, as far as the neighborhood of Quebec, will be a mere matter of marching,” wrote Thomas Jefferson, then out of office, “and will give us experience for the attack of Halifax the next and the final expulsion of England from the American continent.” Maybe Jefferson wasn’t a genius after all.

At the same time, however, the American Navy excelled, forcing the British to lose whole squadrons, which had rarely happened before. American naval prowess on the Great Lakes is still the stuff of legend, as is the old warship, the USS Constitution, known then and now as Old Ironsides.

But from the viewpoint of Canada, whose War of 1812 heroes are Isaac Brock and Laura Secord, the conflict is a different matter altogether, remembered for its glorious victories over American invaders.

“Thus the war that was supposed to attach the British North American colonies to the United States accomplished exactly the opposite,” the late Canadian historian Pierre Berton wrote in his two-volume history of the conflict. “It ensured that Canada would never become a part of the Union to the south. Because of it, an alternative form of democracy grew out of the British colonial oligarchy in the northern half of the continent.”

All this was two centuries ago, but it remains potentially awkward today.

Stephen Harper’s Conservative government, which often stresses renowned moments in Canadian history, vowed in its federal election platform to undertake a vigorous commemoration of the war. Now, however, it is trying quietly to steer the commemoration away from noisy celebrations of American defeat, an effort that may not be entirely successful.

Canadian military historian Jack Granatstein believes the commemoration will be the occasion for what he calls an anti-American festival. “The normal discourse in Canada is anti-American,” he says. “It’s a secular religion, and this is the only acceptable form of bigotry in Canada. So when we have a chance to get up on our high horse and be self-righteous and say we whipped the United States, we’ll do so. It doesn’t mean more than one Canadian in a hundred knows a thing about the war. They don’t. Usually we have a moral superiority. This time we have 200-years’-old military superiority.” . . .

The war ended in a draw, but the contest to conduct the most comprehensive commemoration isn’t even close. The Canadians have appropriated millions, the Americans hardly anything. At this rate, the Canadians will appropriate the war entirely, at least for the next several years. Which brings us to a lesson for our time: Even forgotten wars can be lost 200 years later.

via War of 1812 anniversary poses dilemma / LJWorld.com.

HT:  Jimmy, my brother, who remarks, “I was wondering if our Canadian neighbors know that when we play the Star Spangled Banner before ballgames with the Toronto Blue Jays, the ‘bombs bursting in air’ were aimed at Canadians. I just hope they don’t find out, and to commemorate the 200th’s anniversary of the war of 1812 they add another verse to Oh! Canada, which celebrates how they defeated us in our northern campaign to liberate them from the British.”  Actually, Jimmy, if you would come to visit us out here, far from Oklahoma, we would take you to Ft. McHenry in Baltimore harbor where that song was written and where you would learn that these were bombs being lobbed by British mortars into American fortifications.  But still, your point is well-taken.  I can’t understand why these countries we are always trying to liberate, to the point of going to the great trouble and expense of invading them,  just don’t want to be liberated!

 

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Pete

    Un-American, I know, but does anyone besides me think that Canada has a much better national anthem than we do?
    Reminds me of a great memory. One of the most stirring things I’ve ever witnessed at a sporting event. I was at a Philadelphia Flyers hockey game, back in the seventies. They were playing one of the Canadian teams so both anthems were played. A day or two earlier, the Iranian mob had taken the US embassy in Tehran hostage. News had just gotten out that, at risk to themselves, some people at the adjacent Canadian embassy had managed to sneak some Americans over into their compound. The stadium full of Flyers’ fans – ordinarily a pretty surly bunch – gave the Canadian anthem about a five minute standing ovation. Very moving.

  • Pete

    Un-American, I know, but does anyone besides me think that Canada has a much better national anthem than we do?
    Reminds me of a great memory. One of the most stirring things I’ve ever witnessed at a sporting event. I was at a Philadelphia Flyers hockey game, back in the seventies. They were playing one of the Canadian teams so both anthems were played. A day or two earlier, the Iranian mob had taken the US embassy in Tehran hostage. News had just gotten out that, at risk to themselves, some people at the adjacent Canadian embassy had managed to sneak some Americans over into their compound. The stadium full of Flyers’ fans – ordinarily a pretty surly bunch – gave the Canadian anthem about a five minute standing ovation. Very moving.

  • Pete

    I’m guessing the Philadelphia fans had also forgotten the details of the war of 1812.

  • Pete

    I’m guessing the Philadelphia fans had also forgotten the details of the war of 1812.

  • Tom Hering

    “[For the British] it was but a brief, minor sideshow in the far more important Napoleonic Wars …” – David Shribman’s article.

    I’m going by memory here, but wasn’t Napoleon defeated before the end of the War of 1812, allowing the British to mount the largest invasion force ever seen in North America? I’m too lazy to Google this morning.

  • Tom Hering

    “[For the British] it was but a brief, minor sideshow in the far more important Napoleonic Wars …” – David Shribman’s article.

    I’m going by memory here, but wasn’t Napoleon defeated before the end of the War of 1812, allowing the British to mount the largest invasion force ever seen in North America? I’m too lazy to Google this morning.

  • http://philippians314.squarespace.com Kim Shay

    I’m a third-generation Canadian, and I’m full aware that the “bombs bursting in the air” were directed at us. I’m not a Toronto Blue Jays fan, though, so I don’t mind that it’s reminded every time a game is played. I certainly hope they don’t add another verse to the national anthem; it’s lovely the way it is.

  • http://philippians314.squarespace.com Kim Shay

    I’m a third-generation Canadian, and I’m full aware that the “bombs bursting in the air” were directed at us. I’m not a Toronto Blue Jays fan, though, so I don’t mind that it’s reminded every time a game is played. I certainly hope they don’t add another verse to the national anthem; it’s lovely the way it is.

  • Ken

    Everybody says that the war ended in a draw but many of us up here like to point out that the proof that the British North Americans and their native allies, won is the fact that there is such a thing as Canada today.
    Also, I find it interesting that Tecumseh is listed in this article as a hero for the US. If that is the case, you are honouring one who fought against you in the War of 1812.

  • Ken

    Everybody says that the war ended in a draw but many of us up here like to point out that the proof that the British North Americans and their native allies, won is the fact that there is such a thing as Canada today.
    Also, I find it interesting that Tecumseh is listed in this article as a hero for the US. If that is the case, you are honouring one who fought against you in the War of 1812.

  • http://www.housewifetheologian.com Aimee Byrd

    I will be referring my 12-yr-old daughter to this article, who has to do an essay on the War of 1812 for the Daughters of the American Revolution essay contest this year. Thank you.

  • http://www.housewifetheologian.com Aimee Byrd

    I will be referring my 12-yr-old daughter to this article, who has to do an essay on the War of 1812 for the Daughters of the American Revolution essay contest this year. Thank you.

  • Jimmy Veith

    To my big brother, “Dr. Veith”, the smartest person I know.

    OK, I stand corrected. So I guess that the “bombs bursting in air”, were bombs fired by Canadians and aimed at Americans. But I was just curious. When we play a ballgame at Toronto, do they play our national anthem? If so, isn’t that kind of like rubbing salt in our wounds? And I thought they were our friends!

  • Jimmy Veith

    To my big brother, “Dr. Veith”, the smartest person I know.

    OK, I stand corrected. So I guess that the “bombs bursting in air”, were bombs fired by Canadians and aimed at Americans. But I was just curious. When we play a ballgame at Toronto, do they play our national anthem? If so, isn’t that kind of like rubbing salt in our wounds? And I thought they were our friends!

  • kerner

    Tom:

    The Brittish were conscripting American Seamen for their navy because the Napoleanic wars were going on and they needed men. You are correct in noting that Napolean was defeated prior to the end of the War of 1812. In fact it was a major reason for ending it. The Brits had no further need of American seamen, and could afford not to kidnap them anymore. Americans, for our own part, having figured out that Canadians (who included a lot of Tories who fled the successful American Revolutionaries a generation earlier) weren’t willing to join the Union, could promise not to try to assimilate Canada.

    I never knew that Canadians didn’t like us, or that they believed that “Canada won the War of 1812″, until I encountered a Canadian on line who clearly embodied both sentiments. Questions like “What Canadian units participated in the burning of Washington, or the Battle of New Orleans?”, or, “Was Canada one of the signatories of the Treaty of Ghent (which ended the War)? did not phase her?

    The fact is, as between the USA and Great Britain, the War of 1812 was a tie. The Treaty of Ghent basically restored the status quo ante.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Ghent

    But there will always be Canadians who resent us, and our success.

  • kerner

    Tom:

    The Brittish were conscripting American Seamen for their navy because the Napoleanic wars were going on and they needed men. You are correct in noting that Napolean was defeated prior to the end of the War of 1812. In fact it was a major reason for ending it. The Brits had no further need of American seamen, and could afford not to kidnap them anymore. Americans, for our own part, having figured out that Canadians (who included a lot of Tories who fled the successful American Revolutionaries a generation earlier) weren’t willing to join the Union, could promise not to try to assimilate Canada.

    I never knew that Canadians didn’t like us, or that they believed that “Canada won the War of 1812″, until I encountered a Canadian on line who clearly embodied both sentiments. Questions like “What Canadian units participated in the burning of Washington, or the Battle of New Orleans?”, or, “Was Canada one of the signatories of the Treaty of Ghent (which ended the War)? did not phase her?

    The fact is, as between the USA and Great Britain, the War of 1812 was a tie. The Treaty of Ghent basically restored the status quo ante.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Ghent

    But there will always be Canadians who resent us, and our success.

  • Kirk

    @Jimmy

    I think it might be rude, but Canadians are too polite to say anything about it.

  • Kirk

    @Jimmy

    I think it might be rude, but Canadians are too polite to say anything about it.

  • kerner

    Kirk:

    Not in my experience.

  • kerner

    Kirk:

    Not in my experience.

  • Mark Veenman

    The unofficial Canadian anthem before 1967 was “The Maple Leaf Forever”, which commemorates this victory. It is sung here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXKLFnFv4E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    by Michael Buble and it is a vastly superior national hymn.

  • Mark Veenman

    The unofficial Canadian anthem before 1967 was “The Maple Leaf Forever”, which commemorates this victory. It is sung here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXKLFnFv4E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
    by Michael Buble and it is a vastly superior national hymn.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk@9: Canadians polite? Been there. Hating America is a civic religion up there, and, like most civic religions, it is fairly vocal.

    Although the Quebecois have a soft spot for Southerners like me–for obvious reasons; only place north of the Mason-Dixon I’ve ever seen a confederate flag proudly displayed, on a municipal fire engine at that.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk@9: Canadians polite? Been there. Hating America is a civic religion up there, and, like most civic religions, it is fairly vocal.

    Although the Quebecois have a soft spot for Southerners like me–for obvious reasons; only place north of the Mason-Dixon I’ve ever seen a confederate flag proudly displayed, on a municipal fire engine at that.

  • Jason Kaiser

    What?!? Why is everyone saying that the ‘Bombs bursting in air’ were directed at Canadians? Francis Scott Key was a prisoner aboard a British Ship while he watched the British shell Ft. McHenry. The bombs bursting in air were British shells being lobbed at us Americans. The bombs bursting in air gave proof through the night that our flag was still there? The point of the verse is that the British wouldn’t have been lobbing shells if we had surrendered.

    Silly Canucks :)

  • Jason Kaiser

    What?!? Why is everyone saying that the ‘Bombs bursting in air’ were directed at Canadians? Francis Scott Key was a prisoner aboard a British Ship while he watched the British shell Ft. McHenry. The bombs bursting in air were British shells being lobbed at us Americans. The bombs bursting in air gave proof through the night that our flag was still there? The point of the verse is that the British wouldn’t have been lobbing shells if we had surrendered.

    Silly Canucks :)

  • SKPeterson

    I’ve heard of no such anti-American animus or sentiment from my Canadian friends and colleagues, but they are western plainsmen oft forgot and ignored by the metropolitan types in Toronto, Windsor and Montreal.

    I find it oddly humorous that our greatest military triumph in this little dust-up, the Battle of New Orleans, was technically fought after the war officially ended. Some of the more historically interesting actions during the conflict (at least to me) were the numerous privateering outfits that operated out of both New England on the U.S. side and Nova Scotia/New Brunswick on the Canadian/British side, as well as the interesting political dynamics going on in the West (at that time Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Michigan) with the native tribes. A great introductory resource on this aspect of the late colonial and early republican experience is The Shawnees and the War for America by Colin Calloway. There have been some other works recently out that look promising as well, but which I have yet to read: Alan Taylor’s The Civil War of 1812, Eliot Cohen’s (yes, that Eliot Cohen) Conquered Into Liberty, along with Maya Jasanoff’s Liberty’s Exiles complemented by Thomas Allen’s Tories.

  • SKPeterson

    I’ve heard of no such anti-American animus or sentiment from my Canadian friends and colleagues, but they are western plainsmen oft forgot and ignored by the metropolitan types in Toronto, Windsor and Montreal.

    I find it oddly humorous that our greatest military triumph in this little dust-up, the Battle of New Orleans, was technically fought after the war officially ended. Some of the more historically interesting actions during the conflict (at least to me) were the numerous privateering outfits that operated out of both New England on the U.S. side and Nova Scotia/New Brunswick on the Canadian/British side, as well as the interesting political dynamics going on in the West (at that time Ohio, Indiana, Illinois and Michigan) with the native tribes. A great introductory resource on this aspect of the late colonial and early republican experience is The Shawnees and the War for America by Colin Calloway. There have been some other works recently out that look promising as well, but which I have yet to read: Alan Taylor’s The Civil War of 1812, Eliot Cohen’s (yes, that Eliot Cohen) Conquered Into Liberty, along with Maya Jasanoff’s Liberty’s Exiles complemented by Thomas Allen’s Tories.

  • Kirk

    @Cinn and Kerner

    Maybe it’s just in Vancouver, then. I don’t think I’ve met nicer people in my life.

  • Kirk

    @Cinn and Kerner

    Maybe it’s just in Vancouver, then. I don’t think I’ve met nicer people in my life.

  • Tom Hering

    “But there will always be Canadians who resent us, and our success.” – kerner @ 8.

    They hate us for our freedoms! :-D

  • Tom Hering

    “But there will always be Canadians who resent us, and our success.” – kerner @ 8.

    They hate us for our freedoms! :-D

  • Joe

    I don’t really care if they want to have a party to celebrate a tie that their European lords achieved. Once we run out of trees in the lower 48 we’ll taking over any way.

    Actually, Canada is a valuable trading partner and I hope that whatever they do to commemorate the war of 1812 does not damage that relationship. I don’t think it will.

  • Joe

    I don’t really care if they want to have a party to celebrate a tie that their European lords achieved. Once we run out of trees in the lower 48 we’ll taking over any way.

    Actually, Canada is a valuable trading partner and I hope that whatever they do to commemorate the war of 1812 does not damage that relationship. I don’t think it will.

  • kerner

    “They hate us for our freedoms! ”

    Tom:
    No, I meant success. They think we were in the wrong and they are irritated that our situation turned out so well despite that. And nothing irritates many Canadians more than being mistaken for an American. We have the higher profile, and they hate that. ;)

  • kerner

    “They hate us for our freedoms! ”

    Tom:
    No, I meant success. They think we were in the wrong and they are irritated that our situation turned out so well despite that. And nothing irritates many Canadians more than being mistaken for an American. We have the higher profile, and they hate that. ;)

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    And the long famed, Battle of New Orleans, enshrined in one of the best songs ever, happened after the treaty to end the war was signed. I was watching a documentary the other day that said the war was all but forgotten by everyone one, including Canadians, until that song became popular.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    And the long famed, Battle of New Orleans, enshrined in one of the best songs ever, happened after the treaty to end the war was signed. I was watching a documentary the other day that said the war was all but forgotten by everyone one, including Canadians, until that song became popular.

  • Mark Veenman

    Kerner, what, the success of your fraudulent bankers? With a population 1/10th that of the U.S., Canada has successfully punched well above its weight militarily in major world conflicts, in economic matters, in development, in entrepreneurial acumen, and in medicine. Still, I find the strident anti-Americanism of some left-wing urbanites repulsive. Some Canadians have a huge inferiority complex which I find rather unbecoming. I count numerous Americans among my good friends.

  • Mark Veenman

    Kerner, what, the success of your fraudulent bankers? With a population 1/10th that of the U.S., Canada has successfully punched well above its weight militarily in major world conflicts, in economic matters, in development, in entrepreneurial acumen, and in medicine. Still, I find the strident anti-Americanism of some left-wing urbanites repulsive. Some Canadians have a huge inferiority complex which I find rather unbecoming. I count numerous Americans among my good friends.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk@15: That’s because the Vancouverites are, as a group, mellow due to the tons and tons of pot they are perpetually smoking. Obviously.

    Actually, the Plains Canadians I know tend to be more “American” than other Canadians, and are, in fact, rather dismissive of the visceral anti-Americanism and nanny-state-ism of their Eastern Canadian brethren. The Canadians who hate America live in Ontario and Quebec; these, incidentally, constitute most Canadians.

    /I would hate us too.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk@15: That’s because the Vancouverites are, as a group, mellow due to the tons and tons of pot they are perpetually smoking. Obviously.

    Actually, the Plains Canadians I know tend to be more “American” than other Canadians, and are, in fact, rather dismissive of the visceral anti-Americanism and nanny-state-ism of their Eastern Canadian brethren. The Canadians who hate America live in Ontario and Quebec; these, incidentally, constitute most Canadians.

    /I would hate us too.

  • Tom Hering

    Bror, I watched that documentary too. Good show. Some stations may air it again:

    http://www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/

  • Tom Hering

    Bror, I watched that documentary too. Good show. Some stations may air it again:

    http://www.pbs.org/wned/war-of-1812/

  • Mark Veenman

    Cincinnatus, there is widening political divide in Ontario not unlike what one might find on the plains or further West, namely that of rural, small-town, and, in part, suburban conservatism vs. Euro-chique, hoitty-toitty, large-urban-centre American-bashers. Their beefs are founded, clearly, on Marxist social definitions, and on their hatred for conservative morals and libertarian economics. Apparently these exist in large quantities in the U.S. as well…..

  • Mark Veenman

    Cincinnatus, there is widening political divide in Ontario not unlike what one might find on the plains or further West, namely that of rural, small-town, and, in part, suburban conservatism vs. Euro-chique, hoitty-toitty, large-urban-centre American-bashers. Their beefs are founded, clearly, on Marxist social definitions, and on their hatred for conservative morals and libertarian economics. Apparently these exist in large quantities in the U.S. as well…..

  • Bart Byl

    One of my favourite stories from the War of 1812 concerns the towns of Calais, ME and St. Stephen, NB, separated only by the St. Croix River.

    The British military provided St. Stephen with a large supply of gunpowder in case of an American attack.

    The Canadians promptly sent it across the river to their long-time friends in Calais so they could celebrate the Fourth of July with proper fireworks.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Stephen,_New_Brunswick

  • Bart Byl

    One of my favourite stories from the War of 1812 concerns the towns of Calais, ME and St. Stephen, NB, separated only by the St. Croix River.

    The British military provided St. Stephen with a large supply of gunpowder in case of an American attack.

    The Canadians promptly sent it across the river to their long-time friends in Calais so they could celebrate the Fourth of July with proper fireworks.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Stephen,_New_Brunswick

  • steve

    Perhaps Obama will mark the anniversary by apologizing to Canada and tweeting Harper an “iSad”.

  • steve

    Perhaps Obama will mark the anniversary by apologizing to Canada and tweeting Harper an “iSad”.

  • SKPeterson

    Wrong steve @25 – our policy will be to ship arms and military “trainers” to the Mohawk nation to support their rights to self-determination and full inclusion in a broad-based unity government we’ll insist on being installed in Ottawa. This will accompany our demand that the Canadians renounce all ties to the British monarchy and provide preferential access to U.S. companies seeking to exploit Canadian resources.

  • SKPeterson

    Wrong steve @25 – our policy will be to ship arms and military “trainers” to the Mohawk nation to support their rights to self-determination and full inclusion in a broad-based unity government we’ll insist on being installed in Ottawa. This will accompany our demand that the Canadians renounce all ties to the British monarchy and provide preferential access to U.S. companies seeking to exploit Canadian resources.

  • Tim

    Technically, Canada won the land war during the War of 1812. We kept the Americans at bay and even got down to Washington. It was in the peace negotiations that Canada’s gains from the war were all taken away and Canada kinda got the shaft. (Canada had only one seat in the negotiations, and were outnumbered by the Brits and US.)

    It might not seem like it, but the War of 1812 was very important for Canada. It galvanized us as a nation, when there was a distinct threat that American settlers could outnumber Canadian settlers. The War of 1812 brought together the native population, the English and the French (sorta) in a way that had not existed before and would be crucial to confederation about 50 years later.

    For more information on the War of 1812 I refer you to the Arrogants Worms and their song “War of 1812.” Google it.

  • Tim

    Technically, Canada won the land war during the War of 1812. We kept the Americans at bay and even got down to Washington. It was in the peace negotiations that Canada’s gains from the war were all taken away and Canada kinda got the shaft. (Canada had only one seat in the negotiations, and were outnumbered by the Brits and US.)

    It might not seem like it, but the War of 1812 was very important for Canada. It galvanized us as a nation, when there was a distinct threat that American settlers could outnumber Canadian settlers. The War of 1812 brought together the native population, the English and the French (sorta) in a way that had not existed before and would be crucial to confederation about 50 years later.

    For more information on the War of 1812 I refer you to the Arrogants Worms and their song “War of 1812.” Google it.

  • kerner

    Mark V. @20

    Rereading my earlier comments, I seem to have come off as a stereotypically smug American. Sorry.

    And you’re right, of course. Kudos for Canadian military valor in the campaign to secure the Scheldt estuary in October, 1944.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Scheldt

    Canadians fought a brave and bloody campaign against a determined Wehrmacht. All I meant is that you have to be a student of military history to even know about it, while American military success is more widely known, and that really isn’t fair. And those Canadians that resent us often do so because you don’t get credit that actually is due.

  • kerner

    Mark V. @20

    Rereading my earlier comments, I seem to have come off as a stereotypically smug American. Sorry.

    And you’re right, of course. Kudos for Canadian military valor in the campaign to secure the Scheldt estuary in October, 1944.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Scheldt

    Canadians fought a brave and bloody campaign against a determined Wehrmacht. All I meant is that you have to be a student of military history to even know about it, while American military success is more widely known, and that really isn’t fair. And those Canadians that resent us often do so because you don’t get credit that actually is due.

  • Grace

    Mark @20

    ” With a population 1/10th that of the U.S., Canada has successfully punched well above its weight militarily in major world conflicts, in economic matters, in development, in entrepreneurial acumen, and in medicine.

    As for “weight militarily” – the Candians along with the British depend upon the United States to train many of their military in high tech, … such as helecopters. Even Prince Harry must come to the U.S. to learn how to fly the Apache helicopters.

    Those from Canada and Briton have, for a very long time, been trained by the U.S. regarding aircraft etc.

    Prince Harry coming to America for Apache helicopter training in California, Arizona

    BY CHRISTINA BOYLE
    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
    Wednesday, October 05, 2011

    “The second in line to the British throne will begin the final leg of his Apache helicopter training in California and Arizona next month, the royal palace said.

    The 28-year-old will take part in exercise Crimson Eagle, an eight-week intensive program where he will learn how to pilot the aircraft and use its deadly firepower.

    The attack helicopter is designed to hunt and destroy tanks and is equipped with rockets, missiles and a machine gun.

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-10-05/news/30265104_1_prince-harry-environmental-training-helicopter

    As for “medicine” the Canadians, have not been at the leading edge of medicine, no where close. There are other countries, such as Germany who far outweigh the Canadians ….. although the United States is still the leader in this field. Heads of state from other countries come to the U.S when they are critically ill. We have the best hospitals and medicical facilities in the world. Our teaching instititutions shine well above the others.

    Now if you want to list those who consider ‘SOCIALIZED’ medicine, than the United States would not be ranked at the top. Those who can afford it, come over the border to receive medical care from Canada – the State of Washington is one of their destinations.

    Below is a story regarding Premier Danny Williams coming the United States for heart surgery.

    Danny Williams going to U.S. for heart surgery
    Last Updated: Tuesday, February 2, 2010 | 7:21 AM NT
    CBC News
    “Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.

    CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html

  • Grace

    Mark @20

    ” With a population 1/10th that of the U.S., Canada has successfully punched well above its weight militarily in major world conflicts, in economic matters, in development, in entrepreneurial acumen, and in medicine.

    As for “weight militarily” – the Candians along with the British depend upon the United States to train many of their military in high tech, … such as helecopters. Even Prince Harry must come to the U.S. to learn how to fly the Apache helicopters.

    Those from Canada and Briton have, for a very long time, been trained by the U.S. regarding aircraft etc.

    Prince Harry coming to America for Apache helicopter training in California, Arizona

    BY CHRISTINA BOYLE
    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
    Wednesday, October 05, 2011

    “The second in line to the British throne will begin the final leg of his Apache helicopter training in California and Arizona next month, the royal palace said.

    The 28-year-old will take part in exercise Crimson Eagle, an eight-week intensive program where he will learn how to pilot the aircraft and use its deadly firepower.

    The attack helicopter is designed to hunt and destroy tanks and is equipped with rockets, missiles and a machine gun.

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-10-05/news/30265104_1_prince-harry-environmental-training-helicopter

    As for “medicine” the Canadians, have not been at the leading edge of medicine, no where close. There are other countries, such as Germany who far outweigh the Canadians ….. although the United States is still the leader in this field. Heads of state from other countries come to the U.S when they are critically ill. We have the best hospitals and medicical facilities in the world. Our teaching instititutions shine well above the others.

    Now if you want to list those who consider ‘SOCIALIZED’ medicine, than the United States would not be ranked at the top. Those who can afford it, come over the border to receive medical care from Canada – the State of Washington is one of their destinations.

    Below is a story regarding Premier Danny Williams coming the United States for heart surgery.

    Danny Williams going to U.S. for heart surgery
    Last Updated: Tuesday, February 2, 2010 | 7:21 AM NT
    CBC News
    “Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.

    CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html

  • Grace

    Mark,

    We have done business with the Canadians in British Columbia – it was less than satisfactory. Each time we flew into the airport, stepped in to the cab to take us to our hotel,…… the first thing the driver had to say was how superior Canada was, and then beckon us to an argument. Socialized medicine is one of their fav’s.

    The Canadians have a difficult time understanding the way we do business here. What we observed was this; they TOO often believe that hiring a limo, taking people to dinner is very impressive…. great mistake. The reason is, the people they are trying to impress have the money to do both, but rarely if ever use limo’s – the reason is, they have their own luxury cars, and they enjoy driving them.

    The Canadians lose sight of the fact; people with money who live here, don’t give a hoot about how you can entertain them, they want to see EXACTLY what you are purposing, in order to get them to write the check, and sign the agreement. It’s all about the deal, it’s not about the restaurant and limo’s – Canadians don’t understand business within the U.S. at all.

    Most of all, they believe too often, that the ‘cowboy approach with smart mouth comments has some impact, when in fact it’s a deal killer.

  • Grace

    Mark,

    We have done business with the Canadians in British Columbia – it was less than satisfactory. Each time we flew into the airport, stepped in to the cab to take us to our hotel,…… the first thing the driver had to say was how superior Canada was, and then beckon us to an argument. Socialized medicine is one of their fav’s.

    The Canadians have a difficult time understanding the way we do business here. What we observed was this; they TOO often believe that hiring a limo, taking people to dinner is very impressive…. great mistake. The reason is, the people they are trying to impress have the money to do both, but rarely if ever use limo’s – the reason is, they have their own luxury cars, and they enjoy driving them.

    The Canadians lose sight of the fact; people with money who live here, don’t give a hoot about how you can entertain them, they want to see EXACTLY what you are purposing, in order to get them to write the check, and sign the agreement. It’s all about the deal, it’s not about the restaurant and limo’s – Canadians don’t understand business within the U.S. at all.

    Most of all, they believe too often, that the ‘cowboy approach with smart mouth comments has some impact, when in fact it’s a deal killer.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-27802-Televangelism--Pop-Christianity-Examiner Bob Hunter

    Grace: “Those who can afford it, come over the border to receive medical care from Canada.” And therein lies the problem with the American health care system – you’ve got to have money, and lots of it!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-27802-Televangelism--Pop-Christianity-Examiner Bob Hunter

    Grace: “Those who can afford it, come over the border to receive medical care from Canada.” And therein lies the problem with the American health care system – you’ve got to have money, and lots of it!

  • Grace

    Bob,

    There is no reason for the U.S. to pay for Canadians coming here, .. FREE surgeries, free, medical care. If you like the Canadian Socialized medical program, you can be cared for in Canada.

    We who live here, can buy health insurance – of course there are thousands who don’t want to do that, even though they go out and buy new, or late model SUV’s … or they MUST have the best and biggest ‘big screen tv’s. You might be surprised how many resent having to buy health insurance, they want others to pay for it.

  • Grace

    Bob,

    There is no reason for the U.S. to pay for Canadians coming here, .. FREE surgeries, free, medical care. If you like the Canadian Socialized medical program, you can be cared for in Canada.

    We who live here, can buy health insurance – of course there are thousands who don’t want to do that, even though they go out and buy new, or late model SUV’s … or they MUST have the best and biggest ‘big screen tv’s. You might be surprised how many resent having to buy health insurance, they want others to pay for it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@32,

    You are aware that there are actually people who literally can’t afford health insurance, right? Nor can they afford SUV’s, bigscreen TV’s, and the like. In general, I’m against “socialized” healthcare, but it’s rhetoric like yours that doesn’t help our cause.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@32,

    You are aware that there are actually people who literally can’t afford health insurance, right? Nor can they afford SUV’s, bigscreen TV’s, and the like. In general, I’m against “socialized” healthcare, but it’s rhetoric like yours that doesn’t help our cause.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 33

    “You are aware that there are actually people who literally can’t afford health insurance, right? Nor can they afford SUV’s, bigscreen TV’s, and the like. “

    There are those whom you speak in your post. But there are many, many who can afford health insurance, and choose to spend their money on other things, just as I stated.

    For those who are TRULY NEEDY, that is a different story, but all to often it isn’t the case.

    I have been told to my face, by those who have purchased just what I stated, and….. all new furniture, that it is the responsibility of the U.S government to pay their health care bills. It’s not just a few people……. I wish it were!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 33

    “You are aware that there are actually people who literally can’t afford health insurance, right? Nor can they afford SUV’s, bigscreen TV’s, and the like. “

    There are those whom you speak in your post. But there are many, many who can afford health insurance, and choose to spend their money on other things, just as I stated.

    For those who are TRULY NEEDY, that is a different story, but all to often it isn’t the case.

    I have been told to my face, by those who have purchased just what I stated, and….. all new furniture, that it is the responsibility of the U.S government to pay their health care bills. It’s not just a few people……. I wish it were!

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    Don’t be so daft, Grace. I can hardly count the Os in $12 trillion in debt.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    Don’t be so daft, Grace. I can hardly count the Os in $12 trillion in debt.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    Anyhow. This is about the war of 1812. Important battles were in fact won by the Loyalists at Queenston Heights and Lundy’s Lane. Canada’s former unofficial national anthem (I posted about this fantastic melody above) has the following fabulous verse:
    “At Queenston Heights and Lundy’s Lane
    Our brave fathers side by side
    For Freedom, Home, and Loved ones dear
    Firmly stood and nobly died.
    And those dear rights which they maintained
    We swear to yield them never
    Our watchword evermore shall be
    The Maple Leaf forever.
    The Maple Leaf our emblem dear
    The Maple Leaf forever.
    God save our Queen and heaven bless,
    The Maple Leaf forever.”

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    Anyhow. This is about the war of 1812. Important battles were in fact won by the Loyalists at Queenston Heights and Lundy’s Lane. Canada’s former unofficial national anthem (I posted about this fantastic melody above) has the following fabulous verse:
    “At Queenston Heights and Lundy’s Lane
    Our brave fathers side by side
    For Freedom, Home, and Loved ones dear
    Firmly stood and nobly died.
    And those dear rights which they maintained
    We swear to yield them never
    Our watchword evermore shall be
    The Maple Leaf forever.
    The Maple Leaf our emblem dear
    The Maple Leaf forever.
    God save our Queen and heaven bless,
    The Maple Leaf forever.”

  • Mark Veenman

    Grace, that was meant tongue-in-cheek with a little dollop Canadian self-deprecatory humoUr tossed in. My apologies. I was put off by your sweeping anecdotal tales about your experiences with Canadians. This is the kind of nationalistic quibbling which I find so off-putting. I don’t generally make it my practice to insult other nations in order to inflate the perceived accomplishments of my own. Canadian business success is, however, nothing to sneer at. Ask me about my views on socialised medicine someday; you might be surprised….

  • Mark Veenman

    Grace, that was meant tongue-in-cheek with a little dollop Canadian self-deprecatory humoUr tossed in. My apologies. I was put off by your sweeping anecdotal tales about your experiences with Canadians. This is the kind of nationalistic quibbling which I find so off-putting. I don’t generally make it my practice to insult other nations in order to inflate the perceived accomplishments of my own. Canadian business success is, however, nothing to sneer at. Ask me about my views on socialised medicine someday; you might be surprised….

  • Grace

    Mark @ 37

    “that was meant tongue-in-cheek with a little dollop Canadian self-deprecatory humoUr tossed in. My apologies. I was put off by your sweeping anecdotal tales about your experiences with Canadians. This is the kind of nationalistic quibbling which I find so off-putting.

    Nothing humorous, when false claims are made by Canadians, masquerading as possessing something they don’t have (post 20) When caught, they call it humor,.. it’s the ‘old modus operandi every time.

    It would be easy for me to give you more as you call them “tales” of misrepresentation by our northern neighbors. And yes it most likely is “off-putting” – so if it offends you, don’t do it ….. see post 20.

  • Grace

    Mark @ 37

    “that was meant tongue-in-cheek with a little dollop Canadian self-deprecatory humoUr tossed in. My apologies. I was put off by your sweeping anecdotal tales about your experiences with Canadians. This is the kind of nationalistic quibbling which I find so off-putting.

    Nothing humorous, when false claims are made by Canadians, masquerading as possessing something they don’t have (post 20) When caught, they call it humor,.. it’s the ‘old modus operandi every time.

    It would be easy for me to give you more as you call them “tales” of misrepresentation by our northern neighbors. And yes it most likely is “off-putting” – so if it offends you, don’t do it ….. see post 20.

  • Joe

  • Joe

  • Joanne

    It’s always good and psychologically healthy for a people to celebrate winning a war in which they maintained their political independence. Both Canada and the United States did that in the War of 1812, so celebrate away you patriots. I know that the Americans stared defeat in the face several times during that war and surviving it was like a miracle for our young country.

    In this part of the country the War of 1812 is much remembered not only by the hugh Battle of New Orleans, but by the Creek Wars of 1813-14, and Jackson’s attack on Spanish Pensacola to drive out the British. Tecumseh from the North and the British through their trading companies out of Pensacola had influenced the young (Red Stick) Creeks to war against American settlers, thus keeping the militias of Tennessee, Georgia, and Mississippi tied up fighting in the wilds of the Alabama frontier for much of the War of 1812. Great strategy by the British but it left the Creeks hanging when the British left defeated. The most belligerent of the warring Creeks fled to Spanish Florida after the war and became known as Seminoles and fought the US in 3 more bloody wars, but that’s Florida history.

    Did you know that the Battle of New Orleans did not end with the fighting at Chalmette Plantation on January 8, 1815? The war ships that had dropped the troops off at Lake Borgne, had sailed around to the mouth of the Mississippi and up to Fort St. Phillip where they bombarded the fort for 10 days, till 18 January 1815, in an unsuccessful attempt to pass the fort and sail upriver to capture New Orleans. Chalmette would have been for naught if they had not held out for 10 days at Fort St. Phillip. Oh say can you see that our flag was still there?

  • Joanne

    It’s always good and psychologically healthy for a people to celebrate winning a war in which they maintained their political independence. Both Canada and the United States did that in the War of 1812, so celebrate away you patriots. I know that the Americans stared defeat in the face several times during that war and surviving it was like a miracle for our young country.

    In this part of the country the War of 1812 is much remembered not only by the hugh Battle of New Orleans, but by the Creek Wars of 1813-14, and Jackson’s attack on Spanish Pensacola to drive out the British. Tecumseh from the North and the British through their trading companies out of Pensacola had influenced the young (Red Stick) Creeks to war against American settlers, thus keeping the militias of Tennessee, Georgia, and Mississippi tied up fighting in the wilds of the Alabama frontier for much of the War of 1812. Great strategy by the British but it left the Creeks hanging when the British left defeated. The most belligerent of the warring Creeks fled to Spanish Florida after the war and became known as Seminoles and fought the US in 3 more bloody wars, but that’s Florida history.

    Did you know that the Battle of New Orleans did not end with the fighting at Chalmette Plantation on January 8, 1815? The war ships that had dropped the troops off at Lake Borgne, had sailed around to the mouth of the Mississippi and up to Fort St. Phillip where they bombarded the fort for 10 days, till 18 January 1815, in an unsuccessful attempt to pass the fort and sail upriver to capture New Orleans. Chalmette would have been for naught if they had not held out for 10 days at Fort St. Phillip. Oh say can you see that our flag was still there?

  • kerner

    Mark@37:

    A Canadian bank (BMO) just bought the bank (M&I) where some of my money is deposited…What are you up to??? :0

  • kerner

    Mark@37:

    A Canadian bank (BMO) just bought the bank (M&I) where some of my money is deposited…What are you up to??? :0

  • Pingback: So Canadians Want to Celebrate the War of 1812, Eh? » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog

  • Pingback: So Canadians Want to Celebrate the War of 1812, Eh? » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X