It’s going to be Romney

It looks like the Republican presidential nominee will be Mitt Romney.   Tea party favorite non-candidate Chris Christie has endorsed him, as have former candidate Tim Pawlenty.  Meanwhile, many conservative pundits are writing columns about how terrible it would be for someone to oppose a candidate just because he is a Mormon.  True, not a single primary has been held, but it looks like Romney will be the last man standing.  If that proves true, look for my Obama re-election prediction to come to pass.  That would mean not even Republicans will vote for a conservative candidate.

Columnist Michael Gerson notes the antipathy of many conservatives and Christians to Romney’s Mormonism.  “About 20 percent of Republicans and 23 percent of Protestants tell Gallup they would not support a Mormon for president.”  Gerson thinks many of them will come around to supporting him as an alternative to Obama.  But, he points out, the dislike of Mormonism is even greater among liberals and secularists.

In 2008 Mormon leaders raised their heads in support of Proposition 8 — the California initiative against gay marriage. Their commitment to the traditional family runs deep, and no issue is currently more likely to provoke liberal ire. Secular progressives will add this transgression to a history of Mormon offenses against women and minorities and raise, as usual, the specter of theocracy. . . .

Secular tolerance for the emphatic faiths has been thinning for some time. To many liberal thinkers, conservative religion is inherently illiberal. Mormonism only magnifies those concerns. Damon Linker has warned that Mormon leaders, claiming prophetic authority, might dictate to an American president. Jacob Weisberg has insisted, “I wouldn’t vote for someone who truly believed in the founding whoppers of Mormonism.” Twenty-seven percent of Democrats currently say they would not vote for a Mormon — a higher percentage than among Republicans or Protestants.

via Who’s afraid of Mitt Romney’s Mormonism? – The Washington Post.

Do you think Christian conservatives will vote for Romney despite his Mormonism?  Will you?  Would you rather have a Mormon in the White House or Barack Obama?  If you refuse to vote for either, what will you do?  Vote for a third party or just stay home?  Or does the candidate’s religion not really matter in the task of running the government?

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About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • SKPeterson

    I think this also points out the shallowness of the politics of many in the tea party – they’ve danced with every boy (and girl) who can come along and make the right pitch but can’t put any substance to the words. Far too many of the politicians that the tea party groups have favored are some variation of the Texas phrase “all hat and no cattle.” As a result, they’ve been fractured and unable to unite behind a single candidacy – only behind an inchoate anti-Mormonism. The tea parties have now run up against the truism that you can’t constantly be against something – eventually you have to be for something. They’re not there, yet. Romney doesn’t really come off as being for anything, either, but he staked that ground out much longer than the tea party and he’s “of money” so the Rep powers-that-be will coalesce around him. And lose an election that was their’s to win.

  • SKPeterson

    I think this also points out the shallowness of the politics of many in the tea party – they’ve danced with every boy (and girl) who can come along and make the right pitch but can’t put any substance to the words. Far too many of the politicians that the tea party groups have favored are some variation of the Texas phrase “all hat and no cattle.” As a result, they’ve been fractured and unable to unite behind a single candidacy – only behind an inchoate anti-Mormonism. The tea parties have now run up against the truism that you can’t constantly be against something – eventually you have to be for something. They’re not there, yet. Romney doesn’t really come off as being for anything, either, but he staked that ground out much longer than the tea party and he’s “of money” so the Rep powers-that-be will coalesce around him. And lose an election that was their’s to win.

  • Dan Kempin

    Romney’s Mormonism is the gigantic elephant in the room. If the Republicans can’t talk about it now, they are going to discover that it is a huge issue after he is already the candidate. Personally, I think that is the only real danger of the Republicans blowing this perfect storm of an election. They will lose this election in the primary, just like the previous.

  • Dan Kempin

    Romney’s Mormonism is the gigantic elephant in the room. If the Republicans can’t talk about it now, they are going to discover that it is a huge issue after he is already the candidate. Personally, I think that is the only real danger of the Republicans blowing this perfect storm of an election. They will lose this election in the primary, just like the previous.

  • Spaulding

    We are electing a commander in chief not a Theologian in chief. The big issue with Romney is his flip flopping over the years, that makes him come across as a RINO.

  • Spaulding

    We are electing a commander in chief not a Theologian in chief. The big issue with Romney is his flip flopping over the years, that makes him come across as a RINO.

  • T Zim

    It is far too early to crown Romney. I think people are overestimating the impact of Christie’s endorsement. I don’t think you’ll see any bump in the polls.

  • T Zim

    It is far too early to crown Romney. I think people are overestimating the impact of Christie’s endorsement. I don’t think you’ll see any bump in the polls.

  • MMc

    Does anyone else think it’s strange that pundits are all deciding the nominee before anyone has had a chance to vote? This bothers me.

    SKPeterson, the Tea Party has become shorthand for small government conservatives. We haven’t come together to support any one candidate yet, because we are still watching to determine the best candidate, someone who is a “true-believer.” That’s what the primary process is for. As many of our preferred candidates have decided not to run, many of us are starting to lean toward Cain or even give Newt a second look.
    Perry was never a Tea Party candidate. His campaign is falling apart for the same reasons he had trouble against Debra Medina in the last Texas primary.
    I agree with Dan on the importance of discussing Romney’s Mormon beliefs now. If he is the nominee, prepare yourself for the Democrats waging the nastiest, most brutal assault on religion since 1960. It will be done through SNL, Colbert, etc.

  • MMc

    Does anyone else think it’s strange that pundits are all deciding the nominee before anyone has had a chance to vote? This bothers me.

    SKPeterson, the Tea Party has become shorthand for small government conservatives. We haven’t come together to support any one candidate yet, because we are still watching to determine the best candidate, someone who is a “true-believer.” That’s what the primary process is for. As many of our preferred candidates have decided not to run, many of us are starting to lean toward Cain or even give Newt a second look.
    Perry was never a Tea Party candidate. His campaign is falling apart for the same reasons he had trouble against Debra Medina in the last Texas primary.
    I agree with Dan on the importance of discussing Romney’s Mormon beliefs now. If he is the nominee, prepare yourself for the Democrats waging the nastiest, most brutal assault on religion since 1960. It will be done through SNL, Colbert, etc.

  • SKPeterson

    Ah!, but what is this I see? Today’s headline in the Wall Street Journal “Cain Vaults to Lead in Poll.” Are we anointing Romney too soon?

    Interesting graphic on the polling percentages from August to now. Romney is stuck at 23%. this would be in line with estimates that his appeal is solid, but limited, hence Veith’s discomfiture. Perry has slid, almost off the chart, from 38% (the putative Next Big Thing moment) to 16%, while Cain (the Next Next Big Thing? What is/was Bachmann?) from 5% to 27%. The more Perry opens his mouth, the more people like Herman Cain apparently.

  • SKPeterson

    Ah!, but what is this I see? Today’s headline in the Wall Street Journal “Cain Vaults to Lead in Poll.” Are we anointing Romney too soon?

    Interesting graphic on the polling percentages from August to now. Romney is stuck at 23%. this would be in line with estimates that his appeal is solid, but limited, hence Veith’s discomfiture. Perry has slid, almost off the chart, from 38% (the putative Next Big Thing moment) to 16%, while Cain (the Next Next Big Thing? What is/was Bachmann?) from 5% to 27%. The more Perry opens his mouth, the more people like Herman Cain apparently.

  • SAL

    I see a possibility for a brokered convention. I don’t see the conservatives coallescing around one candidate even when the voting starts and I don’t see Romney rising in the polls.

    After the first few primaries the delegates are awarded proportionally (as in the 2008 Democrat primary).

    In light of this I wish there was a none of the above option to send uncommitted delegates to Tampa.

  • SAL

    I see a possibility for a brokered convention. I don’t see the conservatives coallescing around one candidate even when the voting starts and I don’t see Romney rising in the polls.

    After the first few primaries the delegates are awarded proportionally (as in the 2008 Democrat primary).

    In light of this I wish there was a none of the above option to send uncommitted delegates to Tampa.

  • Booklover

    It is way too early. Those who anoint a winner now, place the power of media influence above the power of the people to have their own mind and to vote.

  • Booklover

    It is way too early. Those who anoint a winner now, place the power of media influence above the power of the people to have their own mind and to vote.

  • Joe

    In talking with friends, family, etc. have not really heard the I won’t vote for a Mormon attack on Romney. What I hear is Romneycare. If he wants to be the nominee he needs to find away to get around Romenycare. For many people on the right, the biggest hope of a change in gov’t is the repeal of Obamacare. If Romney is the nominee that issue is gone and many people believe it will gone not only in the campaign but that repeal will not be on the agenda. This could kill him with regard to voter turn out. But not only does he not try to get around the Romneycare issue – he defends the program. I would love to hear him say this:

    “We tried to reform health care in Massachusetts and it did not work out how we had hoped. But thankfully that experiment was contained to one state and that state can go about fixing the problems that have arisen. That is the beauty of federalism. Obamacare won’t work either but because it is a federal program – it will hurt everyone and it will be much harder to fix as we move forward. That is why it must be repealed.”

    Unfortunately, if he says that know he will just be adding another flip flop to his record.

  • Joe

    In talking with friends, family, etc. have not really heard the I won’t vote for a Mormon attack on Romney. What I hear is Romneycare. If he wants to be the nominee he needs to find away to get around Romenycare. For many people on the right, the biggest hope of a change in gov’t is the repeal of Obamacare. If Romney is the nominee that issue is gone and many people believe it will gone not only in the campaign but that repeal will not be on the agenda. This could kill him with regard to voter turn out. But not only does he not try to get around the Romneycare issue – he defends the program. I would love to hear him say this:

    “We tried to reform health care in Massachusetts and it did not work out how we had hoped. But thankfully that experiment was contained to one state and that state can go about fixing the problems that have arisen. That is the beauty of federalism. Obamacare won’t work either but because it is a federal program – it will hurt everyone and it will be much harder to fix as we move forward. That is why it must be repealed.”

    Unfortunately, if he says that know he will just be adding another flip flop to his record.

  • Jonathan

    Cain-Gingrich would be my pick.

  • Jonathan

    Cain-Gingrich would be my pick.

  • Carl Vehse

    One should be at least skeptical about relying on stone tablet writings brought down from the WaCompost mountain by a pundit who previously has claimed the Tea Party is “toxic,” has described Ron Paul as having “second-rate values,” has labelled Herman Cain’s claim that Mohammedans would not serve in his administration (or with “extra precautions”) as “indefensible,” and has whined about Rick Perry’s Coulteresque use of “treasonous” in a “context of talking about Ben Bernanke” (Perry had said, “Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in American history is almost treacherous – or treasonous in my opinion.”).

    RINO mileage may vary.

  • Carl Vehse

    One should be at least skeptical about relying on stone tablet writings brought down from the WaCompost mountain by a pundit who previously has claimed the Tea Party is “toxic,” has described Ron Paul as having “second-rate values,” has labelled Herman Cain’s claim that Mohammedans would not serve in his administration (or with “extra precautions”) as “indefensible,” and has whined about Rick Perry’s Coulteresque use of “treasonous” in a “context of talking about Ben Bernanke” (Perry had said, “Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in American history is almost treacherous – or treasonous in my opinion.”).

    RINO mileage may vary.

  • Lou

    I don’t really see Romney’s Mormonism as overall prohibitive going forward. If he gets the nomination, Republicans will fall in line like they always do. The spin machine will make sure of that.

    Cain is a flash in the pan, just like Trump, Bachmann, Perry, et al. Romney and Paul seem to be the only two candidates that have longevity so far. Cain is saying that he will last, but his 9-9-9 plan is too shallow and doesn’t hold up to even the most basic critiques, as evidenced by the debates.

    This is not to say that Cain and Perry and Bachmann are irrelevant. Each of them bring issues to the fore that need to be discussed and addressed. I don’t see Cain lasting though.

    I think Romney can offset some of the lack of fervor by a strategic VP running mate. Possibly.

  • Lou

    I don’t really see Romney’s Mormonism as overall prohibitive going forward. If he gets the nomination, Republicans will fall in line like they always do. The spin machine will make sure of that.

    Cain is a flash in the pan, just like Trump, Bachmann, Perry, et al. Romney and Paul seem to be the only two candidates that have longevity so far. Cain is saying that he will last, but his 9-9-9 plan is too shallow and doesn’t hold up to even the most basic critiques, as evidenced by the debates.

    This is not to say that Cain and Perry and Bachmann are irrelevant. Each of them bring issues to the fore that need to be discussed and addressed. I don’t see Cain lasting though.

    I think Romney can offset some of the lack of fervor by a strategic VP running mate. Possibly.

  • Lou

    Third party candidates are being looked at more than ever. Some of the possible candidates people would like to see go third party include: David Petreaus, Ron Paul, Michael Bloomberg, and Hillary Clinton.

    Given the anti-DC, anti-establishment sentiment on both sides these days, and the corruption of the election process overall, does a third party candidate have a better chance this time?? Just curious..

  • Lou

    Third party candidates are being looked at more than ever. Some of the possible candidates people would like to see go third party include: David Petreaus, Ron Paul, Michael Bloomberg, and Hillary Clinton.

    Given the anti-DC, anti-establishment sentiment on both sides these days, and the corruption of the election process overall, does a third party candidate have a better chance this time?? Just curious..

  • Cincinnatus

    I suspect that Romney will garner the nomination, though Perry could still pull it out. W. Bush was performing poorly at this time in 1999. Cain is too shallow for you fanboys earlier in the thread.

    I suspect that his Mormonism will not cause sufficient problems to lose him the election.

    I more than suspect that I will not vote for him. I refuse to vote for either of the two parties who currently compete for my vote.

  • Cincinnatus

    I suspect that Romney will garner the nomination, though Perry could still pull it out. W. Bush was performing poorly at this time in 1999. Cain is too shallow for you fanboys earlier in the thread.

    I suspect that his Mormonism will not cause sufficient problems to lose him the election.

    I more than suspect that I will not vote for him. I refuse to vote for either of the two parties who currently compete for my vote.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, Cain? He’s a neoconservative. No thanks.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, Cain? He’s a neoconservative. No thanks.

  • Richard

    It will be Romney. And come the general election the press will be all over his weird religion: http://headhearthand.org/blog/2011/10/10/a-rare-foray-into-american-politics/
    Four more years of Obama.

  • Richard

    It will be Romney. And come the general election the press will be all over his weird religion: http://headhearthand.org/blog/2011/10/10/a-rare-foray-into-american-politics/
    Four more years of Obama.

  • Purple Koolaid

    The elephant in the room is not his mormonism, but his liberalism. He doesn’t have my vote. He is not pro-life. I won’t apologize bc I won’t vote for a pro-choicer.

  • Purple Koolaid

    The elephant in the room is not his mormonism, but his liberalism. He doesn’t have my vote. He is not pro-life. I won’t apologize bc I won’t vote for a pro-choicer.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Yesterday I posted this to my Blog: http://utah-lutheran.blogspot.com/2011/10/mormon-running-for-president-debacle.html
    This “were not electing a theologian in chief” totally ignores the political aspirations of the LDS. It is not just a religion, but a political beast in its own right. Last round of elections, Romney lost all credibility with me when he said “I know my sphere, and the church knows its sphere.” Spoken like a man who hasn’t lived in Utah, Yet still rather dubious for a man that has as many connections here as he does.
    And yes, I think it will be the Achilles hill. Obama won’t be beat with Republicans alone, especially if 20% of those Republicans won’t vote for him, wisely in my opinion, because of his religious affiliation, a religious affiliation that has showed itself to be a political affiliation also, one only has to think prop 8. And there you have many liberals, or on the fencers, eliminated also.
    So I for one, rejoiced seeing Cain take the lead this morning.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Yesterday I posted this to my Blog: http://utah-lutheran.blogspot.com/2011/10/mormon-running-for-president-debacle.html
    This “were not electing a theologian in chief” totally ignores the political aspirations of the LDS. It is not just a religion, but a political beast in its own right. Last round of elections, Romney lost all credibility with me when he said “I know my sphere, and the church knows its sphere.” Spoken like a man who hasn’t lived in Utah, Yet still rather dubious for a man that has as many connections here as he does.
    And yes, I think it will be the Achilles hill. Obama won’t be beat with Republicans alone, especially if 20% of those Republicans won’t vote for him, wisely in my opinion, because of his religious affiliation, a religious affiliation that has showed itself to be a political affiliation also, one only has to think prop 8. And there you have many liberals, or on the fencers, eliminated also.
    So I for one, rejoiced seeing Cain take the lead this morning.

  • Jerry

    I want to second Lou: Romney will win, the GOP will fall in line, and Romney will pick a social conservative for a running mate. Maybe Mrs. Bachmann will get additional opportunities to renounce her religious background…

  • Jerry

    I want to second Lou: Romney will win, the GOP will fall in line, and Romney will pick a social conservative for a running mate. Maybe Mrs. Bachmann will get additional opportunities to renounce her religious background…

  • michael henry

    First and foremost my vote depends on any candidate for any offices position on abortion. If they are for abortion in any shape, fashion or form, including the cop out of leave it to the states, I could not vote for them. It is not a wedge issue, it is a life and death issue.
    Secondly, no I could not under any circumstance vote for anyone claiming Mormon or other heretical or cultist views, because I will not compartmentalize my Christianity and leave my faith at the door, but I recognize this is a choice each one must make,
    Third, I care not for polls. I question their validity because of a lack of transparency, because of hidden agenda, and the “tweet of the moment” of polls.
    Lastly, I could care less if every “pundit”, “talking head”, “politician”, “celebrity” or Joe the plumber “endorses” anyone. It’s a big “so?”
    If, as the majority of respondents seem to think, Mr. Romney is nominated, it certainly will be the greatest liberal bashing fest since 1960, but it will be the Mormons Churches prop 8 stand that will be the sharpened sword.

  • michael henry

    First and foremost my vote depends on any candidate for any offices position on abortion. If they are for abortion in any shape, fashion or form, including the cop out of leave it to the states, I could not vote for them. It is not a wedge issue, it is a life and death issue.
    Secondly, no I could not under any circumstance vote for anyone claiming Mormon or other heretical or cultist views, because I will not compartmentalize my Christianity and leave my faith at the door, but I recognize this is a choice each one must make,
    Third, I care not for polls. I question their validity because of a lack of transparency, because of hidden agenda, and the “tweet of the moment” of polls.
    Lastly, I could care less if every “pundit”, “talking head”, “politician”, “celebrity” or Joe the plumber “endorses” anyone. It’s a big “so?”
    If, as the majority of respondents seem to think, Mr. Romney is nominated, it certainly will be the greatest liberal bashing fest since 1960, but it will be the Mormons Churches prop 8 stand that will be the sharpened sword.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Since a generic Republican could potentially beat Obama, it’s too bad none of the candidates are generic enough. They are all too defined. Obama had the advantage of being undefined, so everyone could imagine that he would do the right thing because his record was to shallow to prove otherwise.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Since a generic Republican could potentially beat Obama, it’s too bad none of the candidates are generic enough. They are all too defined. Obama had the advantage of being undefined, so everyone could imagine that he would do the right thing because his record was to shallow to prove otherwise.

  • Kirk

    @17

    This! Frankly, I like Romney more than the other candidates, but that’s because I don’t swing particularly far right. That being said, I’m shocked that his numbers stay so high during primary season because there is very, very little in his record that would appeal to a conservative base. The fact that his Mormonism is the elephant in the room (which, from a social conservative governance sense is the opposite of a problem) speaks to what SKPeterson was saying in @1. The Republican party via the Tea Party is an unsubstantive populist movement that cares more for appearance and right-wing platitudes than it does about policy or ability.

    If Romney does get the nomination, I seriously doubt there will be a major flight from the Republican party. Personally, I find American voters to be remarkably unprincipled. If Romney gets the nomination, Republicans will vote for him simply because he’s their best chance at unseating a democrat president. I don’t think he’ll inspire any lazy Republicans to get to the polls, but I think he’ll get plenty of votes despite his party’s reservations.

  • Kirk

    @17

    This! Frankly, I like Romney more than the other candidates, but that’s because I don’t swing particularly far right. That being said, I’m shocked that his numbers stay so high during primary season because there is very, very little in his record that would appeal to a conservative base. The fact that his Mormonism is the elephant in the room (which, from a social conservative governance sense is the opposite of a problem) speaks to what SKPeterson was saying in @1. The Republican party via the Tea Party is an unsubstantive populist movement that cares more for appearance and right-wing platitudes than it does about policy or ability.

    If Romney does get the nomination, I seriously doubt there will be a major flight from the Republican party. Personally, I find American voters to be remarkably unprincipled. If Romney gets the nomination, Republicans will vote for him simply because he’s their best chance at unseating a democrat president. I don’t think he’ll inspire any lazy Republicans to get to the polls, but I think he’ll get plenty of votes despite his party’s reservations.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I find American voters to be remarkably unprincipled.”

    Nah, the 45% on one side and the 45% on the other side are pretty committed to their positions. The 10% in the middle are unprincipled and they are the focus of all the attention in general elections.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I find American voters to be remarkably unprincipled.”

    Nah, the 45% on one side and the 45% on the other side are pretty committed to their positions. The 10% in the middle are unprincipled and they are the focus of all the attention in general elections.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I want to see Dennis Kucinich run as an independent/3rd party candidate on an anti-war, environmental, single payer health plan platform.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I want to see Dennis Kucinich run as an independent/3rd party candidate on an anti-war, environmental, single payer health plan platform.

  • DonS

    Kirk @ 22: “I don’t swing particularly far right” — you don’t say? ;-)

  • DonS

    Kirk @ 22: “I don’t swing particularly far right” — you don’t say? ;-)

  • DonS

    The Mormon issue is overblown, in part because the establishment realizes it makes a nice wedge issue to divide Republicans. So you think the Mormon religious leaders will dictate policy to a Mormon political leader? Um, how about Harry Reid? A practicing Mormon, apparently in good standing, even though his political stances bear little resemblance to Mormon views. Why is his Mormonism not a big deal?

    These attacks on Romney based on his religious faith are reminiscent of the kind of attacks Catholics like Al Smith and Kennedy faced in earlier eras, when it was claimed that the Pope would be in charge of the American government. It’s a free country, and you can use whatever criteria you want to in casting your vote, but really, is a liberation theologist, whom you KNOW applies his “theology” to his politics, a better choice? Because, if Romney ends up being the Republican nominee, that will be you only viable option to him.

    The real reason for conservatives to be concerned about Romney is because he is not nearly conservative enough, politically. I still hope that another more conservative candidate will gain traction, find a resonant message, and win the Republican primary. But, I’m not counting on it. I am prepared to vote for Romney in the general election, if the choice is between him and Obama. That is a no-brainer.

  • DonS

    The Mormon issue is overblown, in part because the establishment realizes it makes a nice wedge issue to divide Republicans. So you think the Mormon religious leaders will dictate policy to a Mormon political leader? Um, how about Harry Reid? A practicing Mormon, apparently in good standing, even though his political stances bear little resemblance to Mormon views. Why is his Mormonism not a big deal?

    These attacks on Romney based on his religious faith are reminiscent of the kind of attacks Catholics like Al Smith and Kennedy faced in earlier eras, when it was claimed that the Pope would be in charge of the American government. It’s a free country, and you can use whatever criteria you want to in casting your vote, but really, is a liberation theologist, whom you KNOW applies his “theology” to his politics, a better choice? Because, if Romney ends up being the Republican nominee, that will be you only viable option to him.

    The real reason for conservatives to be concerned about Romney is because he is not nearly conservative enough, politically. I still hope that another more conservative candidate will gain traction, find a resonant message, and win the Republican primary. But, I’m not counting on it. I am prepared to vote for Romney in the general election, if the choice is between him and Obama. That is a no-brainer.

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    romney sent his health care advisers to bho to ‘help’ w/ the Nat. Health Care Law–the r elites stand back from that little issue…HMMMMMM – wonder why!

    Bachmann-Santorum…
    C-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    romney sent his health care advisers to bho to ‘help’ w/ the Nat. Health Care Law–the r elites stand back from that little issue…HMMMMMM – wonder why!

    Bachmann-Santorum…
    C-CS

  • Kirk

    @23

    Well, I suppose you’re right if principled means always voting for the same party year in and year out regardless of the quality of the politicians that they produce.

  • Kirk

    @23

    Well, I suppose you’re right if principled means always voting for the same party year in and year out regardless of the quality of the politicians that they produce.

  • Kirk

    “Bachmann-Santorum”

    A winning and totally not insane ticket if I’ve ever heard of one.

  • Kirk

    “Bachmann-Santorum”

    A winning and totally not insane ticket if I’ve ever heard of one.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Man, if it’s either Romney or Cain, then can we safely assume that the Tea Party has already blown through its much-trumpeted influence, game-changing, blah blah blah?

    “But we’ll always have 2010!”, the motto of the Tea Party?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Man, if it’s either Romney or Cain, then can we safely assume that the Tea Party has already blown through its much-trumpeted influence, game-changing, blah blah blah?

    “But we’ll always have 2010!”, the motto of the Tea Party?

  • Cincinnatus

    I don’t know, tODD@30, insofar as the Tea Party is a coherent, integrated unit (which it’s not), I don’t think it’s exclusive aim was ever to win elections or achieve concrete policy goals. In that respect, they are much like Occupy Wall Street (both movements are quite similar in their grievances, in fact). Yeah, some Tea Party groups managed to exercise influence over a few congressional-level elections. Yeah, their rhetoric has been captured and reified by many Republican elites. But the Tea Party is/was a protest movement.

    And their protest, I think, has been heard. My assertion here is obviously hypothetical, but I believe that the Tea Party succeeded in fundamentally altering political discourse–in both parties. I doubt that we would be so fixated on questions of the national debt, etc.–urgent issues either way–had the Tea Party not shouted about them. Selecting Romney as their nominee may or may not win Republicans the election, but it will also be a defeat for Republicans in that they will have squandered a golden opportunity to propose a platform that is actually materially distinct from that of the Democratic Party. Romney will only remind us that we live in a two-headed one-party system.

  • Cincinnatus

    I don’t know, tODD@30, insofar as the Tea Party is a coherent, integrated unit (which it’s not), I don’t think it’s exclusive aim was ever to win elections or achieve concrete policy goals. In that respect, they are much like Occupy Wall Street (both movements are quite similar in their grievances, in fact). Yeah, some Tea Party groups managed to exercise influence over a few congressional-level elections. Yeah, their rhetoric has been captured and reified by many Republican elites. But the Tea Party is/was a protest movement.

    And their protest, I think, has been heard. My assertion here is obviously hypothetical, but I believe that the Tea Party succeeded in fundamentally altering political discourse–in both parties. I doubt that we would be so fixated on questions of the national debt, etc.–urgent issues either way–had the Tea Party not shouted about them. Selecting Romney as their nominee may or may not win Republicans the election, but it will also be a defeat for Republicans in that they will have squandered a golden opportunity to propose a platform that is actually materially distinct from that of the Democratic Party. Romney will only remind us that we live in a two-headed one-party system.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus (@31), you said:

    Selecting Romney as their nominee … will also be a defeat for Republicans in that they will have squandered a golden opportunity to propose a platform that is actually materially distinct from that of the Democratic Party.

    This is my point.

    The Tea Party may have succeeded in “fundamentally altering political discourse” (for a time?), but it apparently has failed in fundamentally altering the way the Republican Party thinks or acts. I couldn’t think of a less Tea-Party candidate than Romney. He embodies the system that the Tea Party railed against.

    Cain (with his best pal being Greenspan, etc.) isn’t much better.

    As to your claim that

    it’s exclusive aim was ever to win elections or achieve concrete policy goals

    I have to point out that people who appear to be much more aligned with the movement than you have expressed very different opinions on that topic.

    But fear not, Tea Partiers! Your voice has been heard! It has been ignored, and failed to change anything, but it has been heard! Good job!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus (@31), you said:

    Selecting Romney as their nominee … will also be a defeat for Republicans in that they will have squandered a golden opportunity to propose a platform that is actually materially distinct from that of the Democratic Party.

    This is my point.

    The Tea Party may have succeeded in “fundamentally altering political discourse” (for a time?), but it apparently has failed in fundamentally altering the way the Republican Party thinks or acts. I couldn’t think of a less Tea-Party candidate than Romney. He embodies the system that the Tea Party railed against.

    Cain (with his best pal being Greenspan, etc.) isn’t much better.

    As to your claim that

    it’s exclusive aim was ever to win elections or achieve concrete policy goals

    I have to point out that people who appear to be much more aligned with the movement than you have expressed very different opinions on that topic.

    But fear not, Tea Partiers! Your voice has been heard! It has been ignored, and failed to change anything, but it has been heard! Good job!

  • DonS

    I agree with Cincinnatus @ 31, except for his last point. The tea party has been wildly successful in changing the discourse in this country, and in focusing the issues on what we really want our government to be. In so doing, the radicalization of the left has been flushed out and exposed. I think people are beginning to realize that the government doesn’t care about the truly needy as much as it cares about maintaining and expanding its own power base, whatever the cost to the rest of us.

    The problem is that none of its candidates are ready to run yet, so we’re still dealing with either the old guard (Romney) or marginal candidates. The left can get away with marginal, unprepared candidates, like Obama, because the establishment elite protects them, but not so the right.

    Next cycle, whether that is in 2016, if Romney loses, or 2020, if Romney wins and has been at least marginally politically successful, will see a different story, as a good number of candidates having tea party ideals, such as Paul Ryan, Bobby Jindal, etc. will likely be ready to at least seriously consider a run.

  • DonS

    I agree with Cincinnatus @ 31, except for his last point. The tea party has been wildly successful in changing the discourse in this country, and in focusing the issues on what we really want our government to be. In so doing, the radicalization of the left has been flushed out and exposed. I think people are beginning to realize that the government doesn’t care about the truly needy as much as it cares about maintaining and expanding its own power base, whatever the cost to the rest of us.

    The problem is that none of its candidates are ready to run yet, so we’re still dealing with either the old guard (Romney) or marginal candidates. The left can get away with marginal, unprepared candidates, like Obama, because the establishment elite protects them, but not so the right.

    Next cycle, whether that is in 2016, if Romney loses, or 2020, if Romney wins and has been at least marginally politically successful, will see a different story, as a good number of candidates having tea party ideals, such as Paul Ryan, Bobby Jindal, etc. will likely be ready to at least seriously consider a run.

  • Cincinnatus

    I don’t know, tODD: the Tea Party apparently has its own caucus in Congress. It was Tea Party rhetoric that, for better or worse, forestalled debt negotiations a couple of months ago. It is Tea Party demands that make Republicans at least pander to notions of small government, low taxes, no debt, etc.

    But yeah, I’m cynical too. I never thought they would change anything either. Rhetoric is empty speech.

  • Cincinnatus

    I don’t know, tODD: the Tea Party apparently has its own caucus in Congress. It was Tea Party rhetoric that, for better or worse, forestalled debt negotiations a couple of months ago. It is Tea Party demands that make Republicans at least pander to notions of small government, low taxes, no debt, etc.

    But yeah, I’m cynical too. I never thought they would change anything either. Rhetoric is empty speech.

  • Cincinnatus

    DonS does make an interesting point: I think 2016 will provide a host of compelling Republican candidates. Think about it: how many classic, establishment, Northeastern country club Republicans are left other than Romney? I can’t think of any who would have a prayer in the nominating process.

  • Cincinnatus

    DonS does make an interesting point: I think 2016 will provide a host of compelling Republican candidates. Think about it: how many classic, establishment, Northeastern country club Republicans are left other than Romney? I can’t think of any who would have a prayer in the nominating process.

  • mendicus

    Despite LDS political aspirations, Romney’s left-leaning tendencies are still more of a threat to our nation’s well-being than his Mormonism is.

  • mendicus

    Despite LDS political aspirations, Romney’s left-leaning tendencies are still more of a threat to our nation’s well-being than his Mormonism is.

  • Cincinnatus

    All due respect to Bror’s Utahan concerns, but I don’t think Romney’s Mormonism is something that should concern the average voter. It may concern some of them, but it shouldn’t. I know that, in Utah, Mormons maintain a cabalistic stranglehold on state politics, and I know that there is a certain kind of Mormon dominionism.

    But that’s not Romney’s Mormonism. And if it were, why didn’t he usher in his Mormon conspiracy while he was governor of Massachusetts? The whole thing is too tin-foily for my tastes. What exactly do you expect Romney to do were he to win election, Bror? Outlaw Christianity? Hire only Mormons?

  • Cincinnatus

    All due respect to Bror’s Utahan concerns, but I don’t think Romney’s Mormonism is something that should concern the average voter. It may concern some of them, but it shouldn’t. I know that, in Utah, Mormons maintain a cabalistic stranglehold on state politics, and I know that there is a certain kind of Mormon dominionism.

    But that’s not Romney’s Mormonism. And if it were, why didn’t he usher in his Mormon conspiracy while he was governor of Massachusetts? The whole thing is too tin-foily for my tastes. What exactly do you expect Romney to do were he to win election, Bror? Outlaw Christianity? Hire only Mormons?

  • Grace

    Bror @ 18

    “This “were not electing a theologian in chief” totally ignores the political aspirations of the LDS. It is not just a religion, but a political beast in its own right. Last round of elections, Romney lost all credibility with me when he said “I know my sphere, and the church knows its sphere.” Spoken like a man who hasn’t lived in Utah, Yet still rather dubious for a man that has as many connections here as he does.”

    Your take on Romney fits like a glove – Romney knows his sphere and it’s wrapped around his own ambition, but always standing on and working with the LDS church, PERIOD!

    You live in Utah, plus, you’ve studied the LDS (so have I) Most people are not aware of the inner workings of the Mormon church.

    If Romney’s on the ticket, I will not vote for him. His beliefs based on his cult, will prohibit me from voting, even if it’s between he and Obama – the space on my ballot for president will be left empty.

    Keep us updated -

  • Grace

    Bror @ 18

    “This “were not electing a theologian in chief” totally ignores the political aspirations of the LDS. It is not just a religion, but a political beast in its own right. Last round of elections, Romney lost all credibility with me when he said “I know my sphere, and the church knows its sphere.” Spoken like a man who hasn’t lived in Utah, Yet still rather dubious for a man that has as many connections here as he does.”

    Your take on Romney fits like a glove – Romney knows his sphere and it’s wrapped around his own ambition, but always standing on and working with the LDS church, PERIOD!

    You live in Utah, plus, you’ve studied the LDS (so have I) Most people are not aware of the inner workings of the Mormon church.

    If Romney’s on the ticket, I will not vote for him. His beliefs based on his cult, will prohibit me from voting, even if it’s between he and Obama – the space on my ballot for president will be left empty.

    Keep us updated -

  • JunkerGeorg

    The reason Romney’s Mormonism is problematic for me (no different the Southern Baptistic faith of Perry and Cain, Evangelical Free Bachmann, etc.) is that all these faiths include some form of Millenial Dispensationalism, along with misapplied texts like Genesis 12:3, “I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you,” (where they take the “you” to mean Abraham’s physical lineage, rather than the “you” being Abraham and all those who share the same faith in the Christ), and where the Kingdom/Kingship of God is identified with a physical nation of Israel which is purified, free of non-Jews/non-proselytes (rather than us Lutherans and others who identify the Kingdom/Kingship of God with the Person and Work of Jesus Christ).

    For Mormonism, similar to Baptists, they do believe that in the final dispensation there will be both a rebuilding of the “old Jerusalem” followed by a building of a “new Jerusalem.” Jews who hold to Zionism need an earthly Israel to have an earthly “messiah”. So Christians who hold to Dispensationalism NEED AN ISRAEL INTACT for the ushering in of the return of Jesus and His millenial-reign. (I hate to use the term “Christian”, but in evangelical charity/mercy we must follow our principle of “felicitous inconsistency”–that anynone who trusts in Christ can be saved even if they hold to doctrinal errors, albeit Christ being the judge on that.)

    All of this is directly related to why we have had this “Israel first” foreign policy for so many years, of why we keep trying to domesticate (if not eliminate in some cases) the “Ishmaelites” surrounding Israel which do not like Israel. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to see Israel, let alone any other country, wiped off the map by anyone else. But I also do not think it is fair to the American people (many of whom do not accept such Dispensationalism, including Lutherans like myself) that we should be doing Israel’s heavy lifting for them, especially given that this “warfare” state mentality seen in Bush and carried on further by Obama is one of the main reasons we are in such a 15 trillion debt. (Not that I’m for the welfare state either, the other reason for the massive debt). I mean, Israel still remains our largest foreign recipient of annual aid from the US, not to mention all the military technology we practically give to them for free. Israel currently has the best army/air force/navy in the Middle East, not to mention having at least 300 nuclear missiles that we know of. So unless one thinks that a nuclear Iran is simply so insane as to want to literally disintegrate its country by starting a nuclear war with Israel, then for the life of me please give me a valid argument as to how a nuclear Iran would be a threat to Israel, let alone, the US. Until you can, I think the proven doctrine of “MAD” (“mutually assured destruction”) holds here. Besides this, the rhetoric out of Iran’s leaders rails not so much against Jews in terms of ethnicity/race, as to their beliefs in “Zionism”, that somehow Jerusalem/Israel is their right given by God, regardless of what others have occupied it during their absence.

    So in essence, it is not Romney’s Mormonism that bothers me, as much as the principle of Dispensationalism inherent in the Mormon faith, which inspires and shapes this “Israel first” foreign policy. I say the same thing regarding the Baptist/Evangelical Free faiths of the other candidates, all of which hold to such tenets of Dispensationalism and explains why they are so emphatic to make the “Israel must be protected at all costs” kind of statements they do.

    Oh, wait, there is only one Republican candidate who is a Christian who does not hold to Dispensationalism, let alone let that determine/ drive his foreign policy. Yep, you got it: RON PAUL!

    Constitutionalism holds with him, which is why he pushes for an America-first foreign policy, strong on Defense, but very careful about going on the Offense, at least with first securing Congressional Approval, as the Constitution demands. Rather than what we’ve been doing for so many years now, hiding under the cover of the UN/NATO.

    Like I’ve said, I’d rather have an atheist for president who is faithful to and guided by the Constitution in setting policy, rather than a Christian who is not.

  • JunkerGeorg

    The reason Romney’s Mormonism is problematic for me (no different the Southern Baptistic faith of Perry and Cain, Evangelical Free Bachmann, etc.) is that all these faiths include some form of Millenial Dispensationalism, along with misapplied texts like Genesis 12:3, “I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you,” (where they take the “you” to mean Abraham’s physical lineage, rather than the “you” being Abraham and all those who share the same faith in the Christ), and where the Kingdom/Kingship of God is identified with a physical nation of Israel which is purified, free of non-Jews/non-proselytes (rather than us Lutherans and others who identify the Kingdom/Kingship of God with the Person and Work of Jesus Christ).

    For Mormonism, similar to Baptists, they do believe that in the final dispensation there will be both a rebuilding of the “old Jerusalem” followed by a building of a “new Jerusalem.” Jews who hold to Zionism need an earthly Israel to have an earthly “messiah”. So Christians who hold to Dispensationalism NEED AN ISRAEL INTACT for the ushering in of the return of Jesus and His millenial-reign. (I hate to use the term “Christian”, but in evangelical charity/mercy we must follow our principle of “felicitous inconsistency”–that anynone who trusts in Christ can be saved even if they hold to doctrinal errors, albeit Christ being the judge on that.)

    All of this is directly related to why we have had this “Israel first” foreign policy for so many years, of why we keep trying to domesticate (if not eliminate in some cases) the “Ishmaelites” surrounding Israel which do not like Israel. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to see Israel, let alone any other country, wiped off the map by anyone else. But I also do not think it is fair to the American people (many of whom do not accept such Dispensationalism, including Lutherans like myself) that we should be doing Israel’s heavy lifting for them, especially given that this “warfare” state mentality seen in Bush and carried on further by Obama is one of the main reasons we are in such a 15 trillion debt. (Not that I’m for the welfare state either, the other reason for the massive debt). I mean, Israel still remains our largest foreign recipient of annual aid from the US, not to mention all the military technology we practically give to them for free. Israel currently has the best army/air force/navy in the Middle East, not to mention having at least 300 nuclear missiles that we know of. So unless one thinks that a nuclear Iran is simply so insane as to want to literally disintegrate its country by starting a nuclear war with Israel, then for the life of me please give me a valid argument as to how a nuclear Iran would be a threat to Israel, let alone, the US. Until you can, I think the proven doctrine of “MAD” (“mutually assured destruction”) holds here. Besides this, the rhetoric out of Iran’s leaders rails not so much against Jews in terms of ethnicity/race, as to their beliefs in “Zionism”, that somehow Jerusalem/Israel is their right given by God, regardless of what others have occupied it during their absence.

    So in essence, it is not Romney’s Mormonism that bothers me, as much as the principle of Dispensationalism inherent in the Mormon faith, which inspires and shapes this “Israel first” foreign policy. I say the same thing regarding the Baptist/Evangelical Free faiths of the other candidates, all of which hold to such tenets of Dispensationalism and explains why they are so emphatic to make the “Israel must be protected at all costs” kind of statements they do.

    Oh, wait, there is only one Republican candidate who is a Christian who does not hold to Dispensationalism, let alone let that determine/ drive his foreign policy. Yep, you got it: RON PAUL!

    Constitutionalism holds with him, which is why he pushes for an America-first foreign policy, strong on Defense, but very careful about going on the Offense, at least with first securing Congressional Approval, as the Constitution demands. Rather than what we’ve been doing for so many years now, hiding under the cover of the UN/NATO.

    Like I’ve said, I’d rather have an atheist for president who is faithful to and guided by the Constitution in setting policy, rather than a Christian who is not.

  • Grace

    Isn’t this just like Romney – first he believes it’s the right of women to ‘choose’ to abort, then changes his stance to anti-abortion, and then in June, REFUSES to sign an anti-abortion pledge, of course with EXCUSES, which he is very adept at, answers right away … DEBATE STYLE QUICK!

    • • •

    POLITICO

    Mitt Romney’s abortion pledge

    By ALEXANDER BURNS | 6/18/11 2:12 PM EDT

    Mitt Romney takes to the (electronic) pages of National Review to outline his position on abortion, after tempting a backlash by refusing to sign the Susan B. Anthony List’s anti-abortion pledge:

    “As much as I share the goals of the Susan B. Anthony List, its well-meaning pledge is overly broad and would have unintended consequences. That is why I could not sign it. It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America. That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it.

    The pledge also unduly burdens a president’s ability to appoint the most qualified individuals to a broad array of key positions in the federal government. I would expect every one of my appointees to carry out my policies on abortion and every other issue, irrespective of their personal views.”

    If I have the opportunity to serve as our nation’s next president, I commit to doing everything in my power to cultivate, promote, and support a culture of life in America.”

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57269.html

    Mr. WISHY WASHY flip flops, then flips right back doing a double flip on ABORTION! Will the real Ken doll, please stand up!

  • Grace

    Isn’t this just like Romney – first he believes it’s the right of women to ‘choose’ to abort, then changes his stance to anti-abortion, and then in June, REFUSES to sign an anti-abortion pledge, of course with EXCUSES, which he is very adept at, answers right away … DEBATE STYLE QUICK!

    • • •

    POLITICO

    Mitt Romney’s abortion pledge

    By ALEXANDER BURNS | 6/18/11 2:12 PM EDT

    Mitt Romney takes to the (electronic) pages of National Review to outline his position on abortion, after tempting a backlash by refusing to sign the Susan B. Anthony List’s anti-abortion pledge:

    “As much as I share the goals of the Susan B. Anthony List, its well-meaning pledge is overly broad and would have unintended consequences. That is why I could not sign it. It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America. That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it.

    The pledge also unduly burdens a president’s ability to appoint the most qualified individuals to a broad array of key positions in the federal government. I would expect every one of my appointees to carry out my policies on abortion and every other issue, irrespective of their personal views.”

    If I have the opportunity to serve as our nation’s next president, I commit to doing everything in my power to cultivate, promote, and support a culture of life in America.”

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57269.html

    Mr. WISHY WASHY flip flops, then flips right back doing a double flip on ABORTION! Will the real Ken doll, please stand up!

  • Carl Vehse

    Why would anyone vote for a guy who believes he will become a god?

    We can see what is happening to this country when the Oval Office is occupied by some clown who acts like he is a god, and whose wife spends like she’s one, too.

  • Carl Vehse

    Why would anyone vote for a guy who believes he will become a god?

    We can see what is happening to this country when the Oval Office is occupied by some clown who acts like he is a god, and whose wife spends like she’s one, too.

  • Helen K.

    I have not read all the responses in detail, but to respond the Dr. Veith’s queries, at this point I must say “yes” I will vote for Romney in an effort to install a Republican in the White House and create a change in the current administration. I am a conservative, although not nearly as well-studied as many of the folks here on this blog. I know the pitfalls of the Morman religion but I’m not sure that Romney would attempt to leverage their views into his goveranace of the nation. I could be wrong.
    Like Dr. Veith, I had hoped Mike Huckabee would run but I respect him for declaring that he felt it was not the right time for him. I appreciate several of the other GOP contenders. They all have some good points and some not so much. But…my bottom line is…I don’t think any of them could stand up in a debate, and posssibly have the influence to defeat B. Obama. I hope we can prove Dr. Veith’s prediction wrong! (:

  • Helen K.

    I have not read all the responses in detail, but to respond the Dr. Veith’s queries, at this point I must say “yes” I will vote for Romney in an effort to install a Republican in the White House and create a change in the current administration. I am a conservative, although not nearly as well-studied as many of the folks here on this blog. I know the pitfalls of the Morman religion but I’m not sure that Romney would attempt to leverage their views into his goveranace of the nation. I could be wrong.
    Like Dr. Veith, I had hoped Mike Huckabee would run but I respect him for declaring that he felt it was not the right time for him. I appreciate several of the other GOP contenders. They all have some good points and some not so much. But…my bottom line is…I don’t think any of them could stand up in a debate, and posssibly have the influence to defeat B. Obama. I hope we can prove Dr. Veith’s prediction wrong! (:

  • Grace

    Carl @ 41

    “My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.
    Founder Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 4, 1844,

    Ole Joseph Smith thought he would take “his place” ? that folks is what the LDS teaches, and the Mormons believe, including _______ fill in the name!

    God ALMIGHTY states that HE is the first and last, “beside me there is no God.”

    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    Isaiah 44:6

    Then there is the one below:

    The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible,”
    History of the Church, 4:461

  • Grace

    Carl @ 41

    “My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.
    Founder Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 4, 1844,

    Ole Joseph Smith thought he would take “his place” ? that folks is what the LDS teaches, and the Mormons believe, including _______ fill in the name!

    God ALMIGHTY states that HE is the first and last, “beside me there is no God.”

    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    Isaiah 44:6

    Then there is the one below:

    The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible,”
    History of the Church, 4:461

  • Kirk

    Carl, are you sure you’re not some sort of computer program?

  • Kirk

    Carl, are you sure you’re not some sort of computer program?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    (Psst, Kirk @44, if he is a computer program, then certainly he’s been programmed to handle questions such as yours. Best to try feeding him some paradoxes like “This statement is false” and stand back to see if his circuits fry.)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    (Psst, Kirk @44, if he is a computer program, then certainly he’s been programmed to handle questions such as yours. Best to try feeding him some paradoxes like “This statement is false” and stand back to see if his circuits fry.)

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinnatus,
    that’s not his Mormonism? How do you know? Seems to me he belongs to the same group that tyrannizes the state of Utah. He has never to my knowledge repudiated them for anything.
    What will he do? I don’t know. I do suspect the political aspirations of the LDS will grow if he is elected, as will their influence. How it will be used remains to be seen. But I stand by it, the LDS “church” is a political beast. Do I suspect that they will be able or try to rule the country with a tyrannical cabal like they do Utah, no. But I hate to see them gain any influence whatsoever. Do I suspect they will use the president one way or another as a recruiting tool for their cult should they have opportunity? Without a doubt. Do I suspect most Mormons will see it as a fulfillment of Joseph’s Smith’s “white horse Prophecy” and thereby a confirmation of his legitamacy? yes. Though I think one would probably be able to argue the other way should Romney be elected.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinnatus,
    that’s not his Mormonism? How do you know? Seems to me he belongs to the same group that tyrannizes the state of Utah. He has never to my knowledge repudiated them for anything.
    What will he do? I don’t know. I do suspect the political aspirations of the LDS will grow if he is elected, as will their influence. How it will be used remains to be seen. But I stand by it, the LDS “church” is a political beast. Do I suspect that they will be able or try to rule the country with a tyrannical cabal like they do Utah, no. But I hate to see them gain any influence whatsoever. Do I suspect they will use the president one way or another as a recruiting tool for their cult should they have opportunity? Without a doubt. Do I suspect most Mormons will see it as a fulfillment of Joseph’s Smith’s “white horse Prophecy” and thereby a confirmation of his legitamacy? yes. Though I think one would probably be able to argue the other way should Romney be elected.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Bror (@46), do your statements apply equally to Sen. Reid, then? I suspect not, because I’ve never heard anyone express fear of his Mormonism being something to worry about, even though I’m also not aware of his repudiating that church for anything (except, of course, in his actions as a politician).

    Reid appears to be far more characterized by his own party’s agenda than by his faith. Arguably, if lamentably, this is true of most politicians in Washington (if not the voting population in general). For instance, I suspect one’s position on abortion is far more correlated to political party than religion.

    All this to say, while I’m sure Mormon leadership and laypeople alike would celebrate an ascendant Romney — and perhaps even see it as vindication or even prophecy fulfillment — there’s not much actual evidence so far on which to base the conclusion that he’s more Mormon than Republican, as it were.

    Our country’s civic religion has an extremely powerful influence in D.C.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Bror (@46), do your statements apply equally to Sen. Reid, then? I suspect not, because I’ve never heard anyone express fear of his Mormonism being something to worry about, even though I’m also not aware of his repudiating that church for anything (except, of course, in his actions as a politician).

    Reid appears to be far more characterized by his own party’s agenda than by his faith. Arguably, if lamentably, this is true of most politicians in Washington (if not the voting population in general). For instance, I suspect one’s position on abortion is far more correlated to political party than religion.

    All this to say, while I’m sure Mormon leadership and laypeople alike would celebrate an ascendant Romney — and perhaps even see it as vindication or even prophecy fulfillment — there’s not much actual evidence so far on which to base the conclusion that he’s more Mormon than Republican, as it were.

    Our country’s civic religion has an extremely powerful influence in D.C.

  • Grace

    Bror,

    YOU WROTE: “Do I suspect they will use the president one way or another as a recruiting tool for their cult should they have opportunity? Without a doubt. Do I suspect most Mormons will see it as a fulfillment of Joseph’s Smith’s “white horse Prophecy” and thereby a confirmation of his legitamacy? yes. “

    For all of those who don’t know what the “White Horse Prophecy” is, here are two quotes and a link.

    JOSEPH SMITH’S “WHITE HORSE” PROPHECY

    by Sandra Tanner

    “Since United States Senator Orrin Hatch, a faithful Mormon, announced his candidacy in 1999 for the office of President of the United States, there has been growing interest in how he views the U.S. Constitution and one of Joseph Smith’s little known prophecies. In the Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 11, 1999, there was an article titled, “Did Hatch Allude To LDS Prophecy?” The article stated:
    Sen. Orrin Hatch has denied his Republican presidential campaign is motivated by a longing to fulfill an obscure Mormon myth. But during an interview with a Mormon Church-owned radio station this week he borrowed the exact phrasing of the apocalyptic belief.

    According to the so-called “White Horse Prophecy,” the U.S. Constitution will be hanging by a thread and a church elder from Zion will ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save it.”

    I would suggest reading the entire paper. The quote below is there as well.

    “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so.

    Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, Brigham Young, July 4, 1854

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/whitehorseprophecy.htm

  • Grace

    Bror,

    YOU WROTE: “Do I suspect they will use the president one way or another as a recruiting tool for their cult should they have opportunity? Without a doubt. Do I suspect most Mormons will see it as a fulfillment of Joseph’s Smith’s “white horse Prophecy” and thereby a confirmation of his legitamacy? yes. “

    For all of those who don’t know what the “White Horse Prophecy” is, here are two quotes and a link.

    JOSEPH SMITH’S “WHITE HORSE” PROPHECY

    by Sandra Tanner

    “Since United States Senator Orrin Hatch, a faithful Mormon, announced his candidacy in 1999 for the office of President of the United States, there has been growing interest in how he views the U.S. Constitution and one of Joseph Smith’s little known prophecies. In the Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 11, 1999, there was an article titled, “Did Hatch Allude To LDS Prophecy?” The article stated:
    Sen. Orrin Hatch has denied his Republican presidential campaign is motivated by a longing to fulfill an obscure Mormon myth. But during an interview with a Mormon Church-owned radio station this week he borrowed the exact phrasing of the apocalyptic belief.

    According to the so-called “White Horse Prophecy,” the U.S. Constitution will be hanging by a thread and a church elder from Zion will ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save it.”

    I would suggest reading the entire paper. The quote below is there as well.

    “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so.

    Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 15, Brigham Young, July 4, 1854

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/whitehorseprophecy.htm

  • Grace

    There are four horses that go fourth in Revelation 6 – The first one is ridden by the antichrist.

    WHITE HORSE – False antichrist

    1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    2. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Horse of War – RED

    3. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

    4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    Black Horse – Famine

    5. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

    6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    PALE HORSE – Death

    7. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    Many confuse the two white horses. One is spoken of In Revelation 6:1 This is the white horse that the antichrist rides, that one is the COUNTERFEIT, this one also has a crown, it is to emulate Jesus Christ. Everything the antichrist does is to try and copy Christ Jesus

    The other WHITE horse spoken of, is in Revelation 19:11, Christ Jesus rides this white horse, . . . “he doth judge and makes war.”

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Revelation 19:11-12

  • Grace

    There are four horses that go fourth in Revelation 6 – The first one is ridden by the antichrist.

    WHITE HORSE – False antichrist

    1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    2. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Horse of War – RED

    3. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

    4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    Black Horse – Famine

    5. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

    6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    PALE HORSE – Death

    7. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    Many confuse the two white horses. One is spoken of In Revelation 6:1 This is the white horse that the antichrist rides, that one is the COUNTERFEIT, this one also has a crown, it is to emulate Jesus Christ. Everything the antichrist does is to try and copy Christ Jesus

    The other WHITE horse spoken of, is in Revelation 19:11, Christ Jesus rides this white horse, . . . “he doth judge and makes war.”

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Revelation 19:11-12

  • Wayne A

    If I don’t vote for Romney, it won’t be because he’s a Mormon, it will be because he is not a conservative.

  • Wayne A

    If I don’t vote for Romney, it won’t be because he’s a Mormon, it will be because he is not a conservative.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Cinc @ 34 Just jogged my memory of a suggestion I read at Jerry Pournelle’s, Connie Mack’s Penny Plan.

    I remember back when I was working that people would get annoyed when it was announced that some higher up was getting a 36% or some such. I always thought that it was dumb to give huge salary increases all at once rather than space them out so they seem smaller like 10% a year for three years. It’s almost as good and it doesn’t poke everyone else in the eye when they hear of it.

    Anyway, the Penny Plan seems much less painful than a lot of other ways to get there from here. What do the Tea Party, country club Reps, Romney, Perry, Paul, etc., think of that kind of reduction?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Cinc @ 34 Just jogged my memory of a suggestion I read at Jerry Pournelle’s, Connie Mack’s Penny Plan.

    I remember back when I was working that people would get annoyed when it was announced that some higher up was getting a 36% or some such. I always thought that it was dumb to give huge salary increases all at once rather than space them out so they seem smaller like 10% a year for three years. It’s almost as good and it doesn’t poke everyone else in the eye when they hear of it.

    Anyway, the Penny Plan seems much less painful than a lot of other ways to get there from here. What do the Tea Party, country club Reps, Romney, Perry, Paul, etc., think of that kind of reduction?

  • Grace

    Regarding Revelation 6:2

    It would not make sense, for the Lord Jesus, who is the ONE opening the seals, to make a quick change, mount a horse, and ride out.

    Satan has always wanted to conquer every soul he can.

    The “antichrist” will not appear as a villain with horns and a red cape, the antichrist will be attractive, just like sin, but he will look WHITE as though he were sinless. The world will be attracted to this man, they will elect him to power. The world wants peace and at any price, and they will want this man who we know as the antichrist.

    The platform which the antichrist will stand on will be ‘WORLD UNITY and WORLD PEACE’ all of which the world now wants and is willing to adopt. We see this as ‘all paths lead to Christ and Heaven’, which is a lie, straight from Satan.

    We see many who ‘profess’ to be Born Again Christians wanting a ‘One World Church’ for the sake of UNITY, this Satan would love.

    There are many who believe that the White Horse in Revelation 6:1 is Jesus Christ, when it is clearly the antichrist.

    Many of the CULTS are insistent that the White horse of Revelation 6:1 is Jesus Christ.

    So many have been deceived already, just believing that the first white horse is Christ.

    It’s clear that many antichrists are out leading people astray.

    Satan is transformed into an angel of light. Sadly many are not aware of this. These false apostles transform themselves into apostles of Christ. Its all counterfeit.

    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13

  • Grace

    Regarding Revelation 6:2

    It would not make sense, for the Lord Jesus, who is the ONE opening the seals, to make a quick change, mount a horse, and ride out.

    Satan has always wanted to conquer every soul he can.

    The “antichrist” will not appear as a villain with horns and a red cape, the antichrist will be attractive, just like sin, but he will look WHITE as though he were sinless. The world will be attracted to this man, they will elect him to power. The world wants peace and at any price, and they will want this man who we know as the antichrist.

    The platform which the antichrist will stand on will be ‘WORLD UNITY and WORLD PEACE’ all of which the world now wants and is willing to adopt. We see this as ‘all paths lead to Christ and Heaven’, which is a lie, straight from Satan.

    We see many who ‘profess’ to be Born Again Christians wanting a ‘One World Church’ for the sake of UNITY, this Satan would love.

    There are many who believe that the White Horse in Revelation 6:1 is Jesus Christ, when it is clearly the antichrist.

    Many of the CULTS are insistent that the White horse of Revelation 6:1 is Jesus Christ.

    So many have been deceived already, just believing that the first white horse is Christ.

    It’s clear that many antichrists are out leading people astray.

    Satan is transformed into an angel of light. Sadly many are not aware of this. These false apostles transform themselves into apostles of Christ. Its all counterfeit.

    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Am I the only one who finds Revelation the least interesting and least helpful book?

    My son was fascinated by it and asked me questions about it, etc. I always answered with a completely sincere, “I don’t know, I don’t/can’t understand any of it.”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Am I the only one who finds Revelation the least interesting and least helpful book?

    My son was fascinated by it and asked me questions about it, etc. I always answered with a completely sincere, “I don’t know, I don’t/can’t understand any of it.”

  • Cincinnatus

    I certainly think it’s the least helpful book for understanding the Republican presidential nomination.

  • Cincinnatus

    I certainly think it’s the least helpful book for understanding the Republican presidential nomination.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 55

    YOU WROTE: “I certainly think it’s the least helpful book for understanding the Republican presidential nomination.”

    Not if you understand Official LDS/Mormon doctrine, The Book of Mormon, The books which contain LDS/Mormon doctrine, and those who are LDS .. complete submission to its tenets, considering one of them is running for president -

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 55

    YOU WROTE: “I certainly think it’s the least helpful book for understanding the Republican presidential nomination.”

    Not if you understand Official LDS/Mormon doctrine, The Book of Mormon, The books which contain LDS/Mormon doctrine, and those who are LDS .. complete submission to its tenets, considering one of them is running for president -

  • Grace

    sg @ 54

    YOU WROTE: “Am I the only one who finds Revelation the least interesting and least helpful book?

    My son was fascinated by it and asked me questions about it, etc. I always answered with a completely sincere, “I don’t know, I don’t/can’t understand any of it.””

    sg, — praying, asking God for understanding would be a good thing to do if you don’t understand Revelation.

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    Revelation 1

  • Grace

    sg @ 54

    YOU WROTE: “Am I the only one who finds Revelation the least interesting and least helpful book?

    My son was fascinated by it and asked me questions about it, etc. I always answered with a completely sincere, “I don’t know, I don’t/can’t understand any of it.””

    sg, — praying, asking God for understanding would be a good thing to do if you don’t understand Revelation.

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    Revelation 1

  • Loyd

    [Veith: Recent ran into this enlightening web article]

    LDS a “cult”? What about the “rapture”?

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is “not a Christian” and Mormonism is a “cult,” according to Rev. Robert Jeffress, pastor of the Dallas (TX) First Baptist Church.
    His “cult” remark is based on his belief that the Latter Day Saints church (which didn’t exist before 1830) is outside “the mainstream of Christianity.”
    But Jeffress hypocritically promotes the popular evangelical “rapture” (theologically the “any-moment pretribulation rapture”) which is outside mainstream Christianity (Google “Pretrib Rapture Politics”) and which also didn’t exist before 1830 (Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty”)!
    And there are 50 million American rapture cultists (some of whom turn Wikipedia into “Wicked-pedia” by constantly distorting the real facts about the rapture’s bizarre, 181-year-old history) compared with only 14 million LDS members.
    The most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history that I have found is in a nonfiction book titled “The Rapture Plot” which is carried by leading online bookstores. I know also that the same 300-page work can also be borrowed through inter-library loan at any library.

  • Loyd

    [Veith: Recent ran into this enlightening web article]

    LDS a “cult”? What about the “rapture”?

    by Bruce Rockwell

    Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is “not a Christian” and Mormonism is a “cult,” according to Rev. Robert Jeffress, pastor of the Dallas (TX) First Baptist Church.
    His “cult” remark is based on his belief that the Latter Day Saints church (which didn’t exist before 1830) is outside “the mainstream of Christianity.”
    But Jeffress hypocritically promotes the popular evangelical “rapture” (theologically the “any-moment pretribulation rapture”) which is outside mainstream Christianity (Google “Pretrib Rapture Politics”) and which also didn’t exist before 1830 (Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty”)!
    And there are 50 million American rapture cultists (some of whom turn Wikipedia into “Wicked-pedia” by constantly distorting the real facts about the rapture’s bizarre, 181-year-old history) compared with only 14 million LDS members.
    The most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history that I have found is in a nonfiction book titled “The Rapture Plot” which is carried by leading online bookstores. I know also that the same 300-page work can also be borrowed through inter-library loan at any library.

  • Trey

    I agree Grace we should pray for understanding, but then look at clear passages of Scriptures regarding the end. Much of the Book of Revelation is written symbolically as most apocalyptic language (see Daniel). The cults and heterodox churches have had a field day with the Book- Jehovah Witnesses, Dispensationalist, Millenialists. etc. A key to the book is the John is having a vision/dream, which is represented by many symbols.

  • Trey

    I agree Grace we should pray for understanding, but then look at clear passages of Scriptures regarding the end. Much of the Book of Revelation is written symbolically as most apocalyptic language (see Daniel). The cults and heterodox churches have had a field day with the Book- Jehovah Witnesses, Dispensationalist, Millenialists. etc. A key to the book is the John is having a vision/dream, which is represented by many symbols.

  • Grace

    Trey @ 59

    You wrote:

    “Much of the Book of Revelation is written symbolically as most apocalyptic language (see Daniel). The cults and heterodox churches have had a field day with the Book- Jehovah Witnesses, Dispensationalist, Millenialists. etc. A key to the book is the John is having a vision/dream, which is represented by many symbols.

    It’s “LITERAL” – but for many, it disrupts their theological teaching, rather than study of God’s Word without the help of a …… fill in the ________blank!

    Hey Trey,

    The moment you posted “Jehovah Witnesses” you lost your case. The reason? There is no comparison between them and any Bible Believing Christian. If this is the way you structure your reasoning, count me out. You have not studied Scripture, or you are BAITING, which has become a juvenile sport among ‘some groups.

  • Grace

    Trey @ 59

    You wrote:

    “Much of the Book of Revelation is written symbolically as most apocalyptic language (see Daniel). The cults and heterodox churches have had a field day with the Book- Jehovah Witnesses, Dispensationalist, Millenialists. etc. A key to the book is the John is having a vision/dream, which is represented by many symbols.

    It’s “LITERAL” – but for many, it disrupts their theological teaching, rather than study of God’s Word without the help of a …… fill in the ________blank!

    Hey Trey,

    The moment you posted “Jehovah Witnesses” you lost your case. The reason? There is no comparison between them and any Bible Believing Christian. If this is the way you structure your reasoning, count me out. You have not studied Scripture, or you are BAITING, which has become a juvenile sport among ‘some groups.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    todd@47,
    I could name numerous politicians that are Mormon, I live in a state full of them. on top of that you have Romney and Romney’s Dad,both governors. If I were to argue against myself, which I do if not here, in my own head, I’d just use Romney’s own record as governor, not Harry Reid. That said. I stand by what I posted above. Romney being president will be used by the church to expand their influence politically and otherwise, something I care not to see.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    todd@47,
    I could name numerous politicians that are Mormon, I live in a state full of them. on top of that you have Romney and Romney’s Dad,both governors. If I were to argue against myself, which I do if not here, in my own head, I’d just use Romney’s own record as governor, not Harry Reid. That said. I stand by what I posted above. Romney being president will be used by the church to expand their influence politically and otherwise, something I care not to see.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    And yes, I do, with Loyd, and Junker Georg, find it a bit ironic that Jeffres, a baptist is the one to call Mormonism a cult, and blow the whistle so to speak. Baptists, baptists, share there own heretical views. and when arguing with Mormons, look an awful lot like brothers squabbling.
    But then baptists, though they can be political, don’t tend to be as controlling or monolithic in their efforts. Their church bodies are just not as unified as that of the LDS. And again in theory anyway, they hold to sola scriptura, and are willing to be corrected based on an argument from Scripture. In theory anyway. Scripture means next to nothing for Mormons.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    And yes, I do, with Loyd, and Junker Georg, find it a bit ironic that Jeffres, a baptist is the one to call Mormonism a cult, and blow the whistle so to speak. Baptists, baptists, share there own heretical views. and when arguing with Mormons, look an awful lot like brothers squabbling.
    But then baptists, though they can be political, don’t tend to be as controlling or monolithic in their efforts. Their church bodies are just not as unified as that of the LDS. And again in theory anyway, they hold to sola scriptura, and are willing to be corrected based on an argument from Scripture. In theory anyway. Scripture means next to nothing for Mormons.

  • Michael

    @SG @ 54

    Interestingly enough, a lot of the bishops who formed the canon at least partially agreed with you. While by the 4th century, there was wider agreement on the canon, the Revelation of John was one book that really got in by the skin of its teeth.

  • Michael

    @SG @ 54

    Interestingly enough, a lot of the bishops who formed the canon at least partially agreed with you. While by the 4th century, there was wider agreement on the canon, the Revelation of John was one book that really got in by the skin of its teeth.

  • JunkerGeorg

    Wayne A @50,

    You wrote: “If I don’t vote for Romney, it won’t be because he’s a Mormon, it will be because he is not a conservative.”

    ————–

    It is undeniably true that “conservative” has come to mean different things to different people, especially within the “big tent” of the Republican party. So my questions to you reply are,

    “How do you personally define the term “conservative”?

    and

    “Is there an objective, universally-accepted standard by which to define the term “conservative”? (If so, what is it? The Bible? The US Constitution? Sean Hannity on Fox News? etc., etc.)

    When it comes to religion, as a “Bible Believing Christian” in general (specifically defined in particular as one who holds to the unaltered Augsburg Confession and all the confessional writings contained in the Lutheran Book of Concord of 1580), there’s a saying we use: “Conservative does not necessarily always mean Confessional. Confessional does not necessarily always mean Conservative.”

    As the US Constitution as my personally accepted standard for the definition of what it means to be a “conservative”, the saying would be, “Conservative does not necessarily always mean Constitutional. Constitutional does not necessarily always mean Conservative.”

    In short, what does “conservative” mean? Is there an objective standard by which to define it?

  • JunkerGeorg

    Wayne A @50,

    You wrote: “If I don’t vote for Romney, it won’t be because he’s a Mormon, it will be because he is not a conservative.”

    ————–

    It is undeniably true that “conservative” has come to mean different things to different people, especially within the “big tent” of the Republican party. So my questions to you reply are,

    “How do you personally define the term “conservative”?

    and

    “Is there an objective, universally-accepted standard by which to define the term “conservative”? (If so, what is it? The Bible? The US Constitution? Sean Hannity on Fox News? etc., etc.)

    When it comes to religion, as a “Bible Believing Christian” in general (specifically defined in particular as one who holds to the unaltered Augsburg Confession and all the confessional writings contained in the Lutheran Book of Concord of 1580), there’s a saying we use: “Conservative does not necessarily always mean Confessional. Confessional does not necessarily always mean Conservative.”

    As the US Constitution as my personally accepted standard for the definition of what it means to be a “conservative”, the saying would be, “Conservative does not necessarily always mean Constitutional. Constitutional does not necessarily always mean Conservative.”

    In short, what does “conservative” mean? Is there an objective standard by which to define it?

  • fws

    when I lived in utah, i met alot of young people, including a former wisconsin synod girl that i dated, who became mormon because of donny and marie osmond.

    have any of you been watching the mormon PR jugernaut at work? they go on the attack whenever anyone says that the Mormons are a non christian cult. See what they did to the texas governor’s pastor? and the sbc’s publicity chief Land AND the governor distanced themselves from the comment of the governors pastor that the mormons are a non christian cult. now imagine the boost in prestige that having a mormon president would bring.

    many of you have espressed concern over the public perception of the “normalization” of homosexuality.

    Friends: dont you suppose that this “normalization” of mormonism is a far far bigger deal?

  • fws

    when I lived in utah, i met alot of young people, including a former wisconsin synod girl that i dated, who became mormon because of donny and marie osmond.

    have any of you been watching the mormon PR jugernaut at work? they go on the attack whenever anyone says that the Mormons are a non christian cult. See what they did to the texas governor’s pastor? and the sbc’s publicity chief Land AND the governor distanced themselves from the comment of the governors pastor that the mormons are a non christian cult. now imagine the boost in prestige that having a mormon president would bring.

    many of you have espressed concern over the public perception of the “normalization” of homosexuality.

    Friends: dont you suppose that this “normalization” of mormonism is a far far bigger deal?

  • Grace

    fws

    YOU WROTE BELOW:

    “many of you have espressed concern over the public perception of the “normalization” of homosexuality.

    Friends: dont you suppose that this “normalization” of mormonism is a far far bigger deal?

    They are both the same – homosexuality is a sin, and so is thinking you can one day be a god.

    I believe that the LDS is a cult, and so do others. Having said that, I don’t fault another, including Rick Perry for saying he does believe they are a cult, or saying they are not –

    God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus,
    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115

    This is nothing more than a battle of Romney’s camp against Perry. Romney has known for years what most Evangelical Christians and other groups believe regrading the Mormon’s, its never been a secret.

    Romney supporters, (those who are LDS and those who could care less) are going to use whatever they can, to deny that LDS is a cult. When you read their doctrine, it is clear….. that is, if you believe Scripture.

    “God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . “

    (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409). Joseph Smith

    Joseph Smith believed he did a bigger work than the LORD Jesus Christ. Anyone who believes this, either hasn’t read the Bible or they would believe anything.

  • Grace

    fws

    YOU WROTE BELOW:

    “many of you have espressed concern over the public perception of the “normalization” of homosexuality.

    Friends: dont you suppose that this “normalization” of mormonism is a far far bigger deal?

    They are both the same – homosexuality is a sin, and so is thinking you can one day be a god.

    I believe that the LDS is a cult, and so do others. Having said that, I don’t fault another, including Rick Perry for saying he does believe they are a cult, or saying they are not –

    God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus,
    Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115

    This is nothing more than a battle of Romney’s camp against Perry. Romney has known for years what most Evangelical Christians and other groups believe regrading the Mormon’s, its never been a secret.

    Romney supporters, (those who are LDS and those who could care less) are going to use whatever they can, to deny that LDS is a cult. When you read their doctrine, it is clear….. that is, if you believe Scripture.

    “God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . “

    (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409). Joseph Smith

    Joseph Smith believed he did a bigger work than the LORD Jesus Christ. Anyone who believes this, either hasn’t read the Bible or they would believe anything.

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    ” Tea party favorite non-candidate Chris Christie has endorsed him…”

    Ann Coulter (Christie advocate) is not exactly a Tea Party-er-
    and-
    I do not know any TPs in my acquaintance who favor Christie…

    Carol-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    ” Tea party favorite non-candidate Chris Christie has endorsed him…”

    Ann Coulter (Christie advocate) is not exactly a Tea Party-er-
    and-
    I do not know any TPs in my acquaintance who favor Christie…

    Carol-CS


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