Republican score card

I didn’t watch the debate last night between the Republican presidential candidates.  I hear they all ganged up on Herman Cain, who really has become the putative front runner as the alternative to Mitt Romney.  I heard that Michele Bachmann cast aspersions on Cain’s 9-9-9 tax reform plan by telling voters to turn the numbers upside down (6-6-6–get it?).  You know, that might be enough to sink Cain with many Christian voters.  Again, I didn’t watch it.  Maybe some of you can report how it went and what light it shone on the campaign, if any.

At any rate, here is where I think the candidates stand right now with the general public (not me, necessarily, the general public):

1.  Mitt Romney.  The Mormon who laid you off.

2.  Herman Cain.  Not even in the pizza industry is the top boss an entry level position.

3.  Rick Perry.  Too Texan.

4.  Ron Paul.  Too Libertarian.

5.  Newt Gingrich.  Too mean.

6.  Michele Bachmann.  Violated her confirmation vows in leaving Lutheranism over the antichrist flap.  No one can win without the hotly contested Lutheran vote.  (OK, that is more me than the general public.)

7.  Jon Huntsman.  We already have Mitt Romney.

8.  Paul Johnson.  We already have Ron Paul.

9.  Rick Santorum.  He’s smart.  He’s principled.  He hasn’t got a chance.

How would you characterize the candidates so far?

 

 

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • SKPeterson

    Boring. Almost as boring as the guy we already have.

  • SKPeterson

    Boring. Almost as boring as the guy we already have.

  • Spaulding

    None of them that have a realistic chance are going to pull me away from voting for, “none of the above is acceptable.”

  • Spaulding

    None of them that have a realistic chance are going to pull me away from voting for, “none of the above is acceptable.”

  • Bill (Lafayette, IN)

    Wow… Gary Johnson is excluded from a majority of the debates and from the Blog of Veith. I’m sure his self-esteem is at an all-time low.

  • Bill (Lafayette, IN)

    Wow… Gary Johnson is excluded from a majority of the debates and from the Blog of Veith. I’m sure his self-esteem is at an all-time low.

  • Pingback: I watched most of the debate this morning and came away with a few observations: — The Pastor's Blog @ Saint Matthew's

  • Pingback: I watched most of the debate this morning and came away with a few observations: — The Pastor's Blog @ Saint Matthew's

  • Purple Koolaid

    So you’re mad that Bachmann violated her confirmation vows???? So what if Romney were to leave the Mormon church for a real Christian church? Would you dump him bc he violated his commitment to the LDS??

  • Purple Koolaid

    So you’re mad that Bachmann violated her confirmation vows???? So what if Romney were to leave the Mormon church for a real Christian church? Would you dump him bc he violated his commitment to the LDS??

  • Martin J.

    Not sure I know anyone who thinks of Romney as the “Mormon who laid you off”. What’s the connection?? (Romney created jobs from the research I’ve seen and read.)

  • Martin J.

    Not sure I know anyone who thinks of Romney as the “Mormon who laid you off”. What’s the connection?? (Romney created jobs from the research I’ve seen and read.)

  • Arfies

    I am mildly intrigued by Cain. If he has new ideas, a fresh viewpoint, that should work in his favor–but he still has the problem of having no base in Congress. Of course, Congress seems deternied to prove that no President will get their cooperation.

  • Arfies

    I am mildly intrigued by Cain. If he has new ideas, a fresh viewpoint, that should work in his favor–but he still has the problem of having no base in Congress. Of course, Congress seems deternied to prove that no President will get their cooperation.

  • CRB

    I think Cain will go all the way. And maybe Americans will be eligible for some unique Pizza offerings: 9 pizzas, 9 toppings, 9 bucks!

  • CRB

    I think Cain will go all the way. And maybe Americans will be eligible for some unique Pizza offerings: 9 pizzas, 9 toppings, 9 bucks!

  • Joe

    My problem with Cain is that he doesn’t seem willing to add any detail to his 9-9-9 plan. Why will it work, what is the theory about adding a new tax category. Which category is going too generate the revenue. Must they always be in balance to work. Who thought it up? His lack of substantive answers to questions looking for detail was very troublesome. I’m am not convinced there is an “there” there.

    They only person who had a dumber response to questions about Cain’s plan than Cain himself was Bachmann – turn it upside down and its 6-6-6, really?

  • Joe

    My problem with Cain is that he doesn’t seem willing to add any detail to his 9-9-9 plan. Why will it work, what is the theory about adding a new tax category. Which category is going too generate the revenue. Must they always be in balance to work. Who thought it up? His lack of substantive answers to questions looking for detail was very troublesome. I’m am not convinced there is an “there” there.

    They only person who had a dumber response to questions about Cain’s plan than Cain himself was Bachmann – turn it upside down and its 6-6-6, really?

  • ACH

    SKPeterson–You say “boring” like it’s a bad thing. I’m inclined to think that the best government is not the one that governs least, but rather the one that governs most quietly. Quiet competence beats demagoguery any day of the week, in my book.

  • ACH

    SKPeterson–You say “boring” like it’s a bad thing. I’m inclined to think that the best government is not the one that governs least, but rather the one that governs most quietly. Quiet competence beats demagoguery any day of the week, in my book.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Too bad we aren’t talking about Democrats…

    then anybody would do just fine..qualifications, criminal associations…or not.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Too bad we aren’t talking about Democrats…

    then anybody would do just fine..qualifications, criminal associations…or not.

  • Jerry

    Congrats to Dr. Veith for a concise summary…

  • Jerry

    Congrats to Dr. Veith for a concise summary…

  • DonS

    I agree with your assessment about candidates 3-8, though I might quibble with your reasons for #’s 5 & 6 ;-) . I would say that Gingrich has too much baggage and Bachmann too high negatives for a lot of reasons, some legitimate (666?) and some unfair (must. smear. Republican. women)

    Did we hear from Perry last night? I only heard the first half of the debate, but I don’t really remember hearing from him on more than about two questions. And neither answer was memorable. When he entered the race, I thought he could be a game-changer, but that is one campaign that never got off the ground. I’ve never seen a serious candidate debate with a lower energy level and seeming less prepared than he has.

    So, it seems as if it’s Romney or Cain. The Republican establishment has thrown in for Romney, and the Tea Party types and other conservatives are hoping that Cain can get over the last hurdle toward being a serious candidate, namely, organizational legitimacy and obtaining the endorsements of credible players. There are a lot of good things about Cain, including his ability to articulate conservative principles, and his willingness to innovate and put forth a credible plan (one questioner’s nitpick on the 9-9-9 Plan last night was that current federal revenues are about $2.2 trillion and his plan was calculated by one group as only raising $2 trillion. So, obviously, he is on to something that could be tweaked and would seem to be a lot better and fairer than the tax system we have now). I also like the fact that he is in the face of the liberal race lobby. However, he also often makes gaffes which exemplify the fact that he is a political neophyte, such as the recent success of a Sunday morning interviewer to bait him into denouncing Rick Perry for the silly 1980′s rock incident, as “reported” in the Washington Post. That tendency would be very dangerous in a general election where the whole goal of the political and media establishment is to play “gotcha” with the Republican candidate, especially when they are protecting their man.

    So, I think it will be Romney who gets his chance this time. Not exciting, to be sure. But a definite improvement over what we have now. The Mormon issue is real, but probably not devastating when he is side-by-side with Obama — most conservatives who are concerned about Mormonism will ultimately vote Romney anyway, given that choice. And I don’t think most Americans think of him as the “Mormon who laid you off”. I’m not quite sure where that impression came from.

  • DonS

    I agree with your assessment about candidates 3-8, though I might quibble with your reasons for #’s 5 & 6 ;-) . I would say that Gingrich has too much baggage and Bachmann too high negatives for a lot of reasons, some legitimate (666?) and some unfair (must. smear. Republican. women)

    Did we hear from Perry last night? I only heard the first half of the debate, but I don’t really remember hearing from him on more than about two questions. And neither answer was memorable. When he entered the race, I thought he could be a game-changer, but that is one campaign that never got off the ground. I’ve never seen a serious candidate debate with a lower energy level and seeming less prepared than he has.

    So, it seems as if it’s Romney or Cain. The Republican establishment has thrown in for Romney, and the Tea Party types and other conservatives are hoping that Cain can get over the last hurdle toward being a serious candidate, namely, organizational legitimacy and obtaining the endorsements of credible players. There are a lot of good things about Cain, including his ability to articulate conservative principles, and his willingness to innovate and put forth a credible plan (one questioner’s nitpick on the 9-9-9 Plan last night was that current federal revenues are about $2.2 trillion and his plan was calculated by one group as only raising $2 trillion. So, obviously, he is on to something that could be tweaked and would seem to be a lot better and fairer than the tax system we have now). I also like the fact that he is in the face of the liberal race lobby. However, he also often makes gaffes which exemplify the fact that he is a political neophyte, such as the recent success of a Sunday morning interviewer to bait him into denouncing Rick Perry for the silly 1980′s rock incident, as “reported” in the Washington Post. That tendency would be very dangerous in a general election where the whole goal of the political and media establishment is to play “gotcha” with the Republican candidate, especially when they are protecting their man.

    So, I think it will be Romney who gets his chance this time. Not exciting, to be sure. But a definite improvement over what we have now. The Mormon issue is real, but probably not devastating when he is side-by-side with Obama — most conservatives who are concerned about Mormonism will ultimately vote Romney anyway, given that choice. And I don’t think most Americans think of him as the “Mormon who laid you off”. I’m not quite sure where that impression came from.

  • Ryan

    The issue with Bachmann is not that she changed confessions, but that the timing and appearance looks like she did so when it became a political liability to remain on the church rolls as a Lutheran. To abandon one’s confession of faith for political gain does not bode well for a candidate’s integrity. If Romney would change to a Christian church for political advantage I would feel the same way.

  • Ryan

    The issue with Bachmann is not that she changed confessions, but that the timing and appearance looks like she did so when it became a political liability to remain on the church rolls as a Lutheran. To abandon one’s confession of faith for political gain does not bode well for a candidate’s integrity. If Romney would change to a Christian church for political advantage I would feel the same way.

  • SKPeterson

    This video puts Perry back out in from for me.

    Save a pretzel for the gas jets.

  • SKPeterson

    This video puts Perry back out in from for me.

    Save a pretzel for the gas jets.

  • Grace

    Cain just might be the man.

    HERMAN CAIN BIOGRAPHY

    http://www.hermancain.com/about

  • Grace

    Cain just might be the man.

    HERMAN CAIN BIOGRAPHY

    http://www.hermancain.com/about

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Actually, Bachmann’s “666″ criticism of Cain is incredibly trenchant. It’s in Revelations, people!

    He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    Don’t you see? No one will be able to buy or sell anything without incurring Cain’s taxes! You Lutherans are blinded to the truth of this fact because of your adherence to medieval notions of who the Antichrist is! This is exactly why Bachmann left the Lutheran church!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Actually, Bachmann’s “666″ criticism of Cain is incredibly trenchant. It’s in Revelations, people!

    He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    Don’t you see? No one will be able to buy or sell anything without incurring Cain’s taxes! You Lutherans are blinded to the truth of this fact because of your adherence to medieval notions of who the Antichrist is! This is exactly why Bachmann left the Lutheran church!

  • Grace

    Herman Cain

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    “Herman Cain (born December 13, 1945) is an American businessman, syndicated columnist, and radio host from Georgia. He is the former chairman and CEO of Godfather’s Pizza and a former deputy chairman (1992–94) and chairman (1995–96) of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City.[2] Before his business career he worked as a mathematician in ballistics as a civilian employee of the United States Navy.[3][4] He lives in the Atlanta suburbs, where he also serves as an associate minister at Antioch Baptist Church North.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Cain

  • Grace

    Herman Cain

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    “Herman Cain (born December 13, 1945) is an American businessman, syndicated columnist, and radio host from Georgia. He is the former chairman and CEO of Godfather’s Pizza and a former deputy chairman (1992–94) and chairman (1995–96) of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City.[2] Before his business career he worked as a mathematician in ballistics as a civilian employee of the United States Navy.[3][4] He lives in the Atlanta suburbs, where he also serves as an associate minister at Antioch Baptist Church North.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Cain

  • JunkerGeorg

    Dr. Veith,

    With regard to the perception of the general public, undeniably influence to some extent by the Media, I think you were pretty much spot on, including the fact that Gary Johnson wasn’t included on your list!!!

    As to the debate last night, imo it was still the Romney show. But of course to not make it so obvious, Romney has to have his “Jerry Lewis” sidekick. While last time up it was Rick Perry, showing a flat-out chick fight between those two candidates with the best hair, this time it was Herman Cain, in typical little cutesy marital squabbles with Romney. This pairing of Romney with Cain makes more sense, given the real-life marriage between too-big-to-fail Goldman-Sachs (a backer of Romney) and the Federal Reserve (for which Cain served as a chairman in KC during the Greenspan regime).

    Romney and Cain did diverge on a couple economic matters regarding Cain’s “9-9-9″ plan (or what I cannot but call the “Nein! Nein! Nein!” plan, that is, from my admitted Ron Paul perspective as one who believes the Fed is a major source of our problems, rather than solutions provided it just gets the “right” people in charge as Cain and Romney would think). In other words, for Romney and Cain, it is not LESS government, or government strictly limited within the constitution’s boundaries, but rather, it is RIGHT government, that is, fixed or “righted” by the neoconservative kind of “right”. I’m sorry, but such a mentality represents the same old status quo which has been a source of our demise for many years now. Do we not see this also in the church? “If only we get the right people in power, then everything will be good.” Yeesh. Be careful what you wish for.

    Yet otherwise, Romney and Cain were pals, as Romney echoes Cain’s mantra of “Just fix it” when it comes to income tax, governmental programs and agencies, including unaccountable ones like the Fed. :) It’s not about eliminating unneccesary government which tramps on constitutional liberties, but rather, just another “reform” of government, that is, by the government itself. (Um, good luck with that). On the Fed tangent, which yes, I will not give up contending against, as Romney was mum regarding the Fed, that “meanie” Gingrich emphatically advocated a full audit of the Fed for the housing collapse years of 07-09 (while Ron Paul just sat back and smiled , witnessing the first fruits of his 30 years of prophetic labor coming out of the mouths of growing babes, you know, sort of like a Lutheran pastor does when the light finally goes on for a parishioner when they understand the meaning and impact of Justification by Grace through Faith in Christ as such is delivered by the Holy Spirit via the Word and Sacraments.) I have to give credit to Gingrich—I mean, while I don’t agree with all of his neocon views, the dude is an amazing lecturer. If Ron Paul had Gingrich’s gift for pontification, he might actually be the frontrunner.

    Sadly, when Cain was posed the question by Ron Paul if he still felt the Fed shouldn’t be audited, Cain denied ever suggesting such, when in reality it is documented on tape that he did do so, back on Dec. 29th, 2010. Ron Paul’s reply to Cain was wry but true, “Spoken like a true insider”. Then Cain later dug himself a hole by touting the Keynesian Alan Greenspan as his hero, to which many on the panel just had a smirk on their face as they know that Greenspan was a disaster for the economy which we’re still suffering from through his disciple Bernanke, as, sure enough, Ron Paul would then state with a chuckle, “Greenspan was a disaster.” I’m sorry, but Cain is over his head—not because of race (as I know doubt will be charged with for criticizing him), but because he’s a Fed man who only knows one model of economics, a failed one, and it aint Austrian. Romney does know this, as he also smirked when Greenspan was touted by Cain, but then again, he is beholden to his patron Goldman-Sachs, so for him to tackle Cain on Greenspan would be biting the hand that feeds him.

    Aside from that, Bachmann made a stupid attempt at a joke by commenting on Cain’s plan as being a different set of numbers when turned upside down. I’m sorry, but even aside from her leaving Lutheranism for evangelical free, (along with all its pre-millenial dispensationalist trappings), she was a tax attorney for the IRS who even made the claim that she only did so in order to learn the evil of the IRS from the inside out. I hardly believe that. Granted, I’d take her over Romney/Cain, but that still leads to demise, just in a slower way.

    Huntsman was pretty much silent. Santorum made a sentimental, but somewhat inapplicable, apple pie comment about the import of the family on the economy. True enough, but I’m not sure the family is the job of politicians to fix, as much as leave alone and not get into the way (e.g., the vile Dept. of Education). Leave that for God through the clergy, as Ron Paul would say.

  • JunkerGeorg

    Dr. Veith,

    With regard to the perception of the general public, undeniably influence to some extent by the Media, I think you were pretty much spot on, including the fact that Gary Johnson wasn’t included on your list!!!

    As to the debate last night, imo it was still the Romney show. But of course to not make it so obvious, Romney has to have his “Jerry Lewis” sidekick. While last time up it was Rick Perry, showing a flat-out chick fight between those two candidates with the best hair, this time it was Herman Cain, in typical little cutesy marital squabbles with Romney. This pairing of Romney with Cain makes more sense, given the real-life marriage between too-big-to-fail Goldman-Sachs (a backer of Romney) and the Federal Reserve (for which Cain served as a chairman in KC during the Greenspan regime).

    Romney and Cain did diverge on a couple economic matters regarding Cain’s “9-9-9″ plan (or what I cannot but call the “Nein! Nein! Nein!” plan, that is, from my admitted Ron Paul perspective as one who believes the Fed is a major source of our problems, rather than solutions provided it just gets the “right” people in charge as Cain and Romney would think). In other words, for Romney and Cain, it is not LESS government, or government strictly limited within the constitution’s boundaries, but rather, it is RIGHT government, that is, fixed or “righted” by the neoconservative kind of “right”. I’m sorry, but such a mentality represents the same old status quo which has been a source of our demise for many years now. Do we not see this also in the church? “If only we get the right people in power, then everything will be good.” Yeesh. Be careful what you wish for.

    Yet otherwise, Romney and Cain were pals, as Romney echoes Cain’s mantra of “Just fix it” when it comes to income tax, governmental programs and agencies, including unaccountable ones like the Fed. :) It’s not about eliminating unneccesary government which tramps on constitutional liberties, but rather, just another “reform” of government, that is, by the government itself. (Um, good luck with that). On the Fed tangent, which yes, I will not give up contending against, as Romney was mum regarding the Fed, that “meanie” Gingrich emphatically advocated a full audit of the Fed for the housing collapse years of 07-09 (while Ron Paul just sat back and smiled , witnessing the first fruits of his 30 years of prophetic labor coming out of the mouths of growing babes, you know, sort of like a Lutheran pastor does when the light finally goes on for a parishioner when they understand the meaning and impact of Justification by Grace through Faith in Christ as such is delivered by the Holy Spirit via the Word and Sacraments.) I have to give credit to Gingrich—I mean, while I don’t agree with all of his neocon views, the dude is an amazing lecturer. If Ron Paul had Gingrich’s gift for pontification, he might actually be the frontrunner.

    Sadly, when Cain was posed the question by Ron Paul if he still felt the Fed shouldn’t be audited, Cain denied ever suggesting such, when in reality it is documented on tape that he did do so, back on Dec. 29th, 2010. Ron Paul’s reply to Cain was wry but true, “Spoken like a true insider”. Then Cain later dug himself a hole by touting the Keynesian Alan Greenspan as his hero, to which many on the panel just had a smirk on their face as they know that Greenspan was a disaster for the economy which we’re still suffering from through his disciple Bernanke, as, sure enough, Ron Paul would then state with a chuckle, “Greenspan was a disaster.” I’m sorry, but Cain is over his head—not because of race (as I know doubt will be charged with for criticizing him), but because he’s a Fed man who only knows one model of economics, a failed one, and it aint Austrian. Romney does know this, as he also smirked when Greenspan was touted by Cain, but then again, he is beholden to his patron Goldman-Sachs, so for him to tackle Cain on Greenspan would be biting the hand that feeds him.

    Aside from that, Bachmann made a stupid attempt at a joke by commenting on Cain’s plan as being a different set of numbers when turned upside down. I’m sorry, but even aside from her leaving Lutheranism for evangelical free, (along with all its pre-millenial dispensationalist trappings), she was a tax attorney for the IRS who even made the claim that she only did so in order to learn the evil of the IRS from the inside out. I hardly believe that. Granted, I’d take her over Romney/Cain, but that still leads to demise, just in a slower way.

    Huntsman was pretty much silent. Santorum made a sentimental, but somewhat inapplicable, apple pie comment about the import of the family on the economy. True enough, but I’m not sure the family is the job of politicians to fix, as much as leave alone and not get into the way (e.g., the vile Dept. of Education). Leave that for God through the clergy, as Ron Paul would say.

  • Martin J.

    btw, Chris Christie backed Romney. Kind of surprised me a little. Kind of worries me too (will Karl Rove and his machine get his claws into Romney?)

  • Martin J.

    btw, Chris Christie backed Romney. Kind of surprised me a little. Kind of worries me too (will Karl Rove and his machine get his claws into Romney?)

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Junker, I will add Paul Johnson! I forgot about him, though I have something to say about him, now that I think about it.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Junker, I will add Paul Johnson! I forgot about him, though I have something to say about him, now that I think about it.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Koolaid @4: As the Lutheran confessions specifically say, unbiblical vows are not binding.

    Martin @5: I was alluding to the PREVIOUS presidential campaign, in which Mike Huckabee (I wish he’d run!) explained his popularity by saying that he reminds people of the guy they work next to. And that Mitt Romney reminds people of the guy who laid them off. (That was the best line of that whole sorry campaign, in my opinion!)

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Koolaid @4: As the Lutheran confessions specifically say, unbiblical vows are not binding.

    Martin @5: I was alluding to the PREVIOUS presidential campaign, in which Mike Huckabee (I wish he’d run!) explained his popularity by saying that he reminds people of the guy they work next to. And that Mitt Romney reminds people of the guy who laid them off. (That was the best line of that whole sorry campaign, in my opinion!)

  • CRB

    Grace @17 posted this:
    “He lives in the Atlanta suburbs, where he also serves as an associate minister at Antioch Baptist Church North.”

    So, when did he find the time to attend seminary?

  • CRB

    Grace @17 posted this:
    “He lives in the Atlanta suburbs, where he also serves as an associate minister at Antioch Baptist Church North.”

    So, when did he find the time to attend seminary?

  • Grace

    CRB @22

    The material I posted was from Wikipedia (Cain’s biography)

    Not all pastors have attended “seminary” -

  • Grace

    CRB @22

    The material I posted was from Wikipedia (Cain’s biography)

    Not all pastors have attended “seminary” -

  • CRB

    tODD @16,
    I have to wonder if you are serious (seriously!) or are you posting with tongue in cheek? Not saying I disagree with your post, just trying to get a handle on what you’re really saying. Thanks!

  • CRB

    tODD @16,
    I have to wonder if you are serious (seriously!) or are you posting with tongue in cheek? Not saying I disagree with your post, just trying to get a handle on what you’re really saying. Thanks!

  • Grace

    CRB

    From Wikipedia:

    “Family life; religious involvement

    Cain has been married for 43 years to Gloria Cain (née Etchison),[46] who has pursued a career as a homemaker along with stints as a teacher and a librarian. The couple have two children and three grandchildren. Cain is an associate minister at Antioch Baptist Church North in Atlanta, which he joined at the age of 10. The church is part of the National Baptist Convention, USA. A sometimes gospel vocalist, Cain performed on the 13-track album Sunday Morning released by Selah Sound Production & Melodic Praise Records in 1996.”

  • Grace

    CRB

    From Wikipedia:

    “Family life; religious involvement

    Cain has been married for 43 years to Gloria Cain (née Etchison),[46] who has pursued a career as a homemaker along with stints as a teacher and a librarian. The couple have two children and three grandchildren. Cain is an associate minister at Antioch Baptist Church North in Atlanta, which he joined at the age of 10. The church is part of the National Baptist Convention, USA. A sometimes gospel vocalist, Cain performed on the 13-track album Sunday Morning released by Selah Sound Production & Melodic Praise Records in 1996.”

  • CRB

    Grace @23,
    Then how is one qualified to teach the Scriptures to a congregation?

  • CRB

    Grace @23,
    Then how is one qualified to teach the Scriptures to a congregation?

  • CRB

    Grace @23,
    Oh, I see; he’s a “minister” as in “minister of music” but not a called
    and ordained servant of the Word. Now, I understand.

  • CRB

    Grace @23,
    Oh, I see; he’s a “minister” as in “minister of music” but not a called
    and ordained servant of the Word. Now, I understand.

  • Grace

    CRB,

    There are Associate pastors who have not attended seminary, but instead have attended a Bible college, or taken extended teaching classes within their church or denomination.

    There are pastors who have not attended school, but have dedicated their entire lives to study, teaching and proclaiming God’s Word, sometimes they are more dedicated, and gifted than those who have the degrees.

  • Grace

    CRB,

    There are Associate pastors who have not attended seminary, but instead have attended a Bible college, or taken extended teaching classes within their church or denomination.

    There are pastors who have not attended school, but have dedicated their entire lives to study, teaching and proclaiming God’s Word, sometimes they are more dedicated, and gifted than those who have the degrees.

  • Grace

    CRB

    One can be “called” but not a graduate of a Bible college or a seminary.

  • Grace

    CRB

    One can be “called” but not a graduate of a Bible college or a seminary.

  • Helen K.

    following….

  • Helen K.

    following….

  • CRB

    Grace @ 29,
    Oh, so the Baptists do a “call” without the person having any formal
    biblical training?

  • CRB

    Grace @ 29,
    Oh, so the Baptists do a “call” without the person having any formal
    biblical training?

  • Grace

    CRB,

    YOU WROTE: “Oh, so the Baptists do a “call” without the person having any formal biblical training?’

    No that isn’t true, but there are men who have a great gift of teaching, and preaching who have not gone to Bible school or attended seminary. The vast majority of pastors have all attended Bible school and seminary.

  • Grace

    CRB,

    YOU WROTE: “Oh, so the Baptists do a “call” without the person having any formal biblical training?’

    No that isn’t true, but there are men who have a great gift of teaching, and preaching who have not gone to Bible school or attended seminary. The vast majority of pastors have all attended Bible school and seminary.

  • Grace

    CRB,

    If you notice, ….. Cain has been attending the same church since he was 10 years old. He may fill in occasionally, teaching.

  • Grace

    CRB,

    If you notice, ….. Cain has been attending the same church since he was 10 years old. He may fill in occasionally, teaching.

  • TLB in Minnesota

    Ron Paul? Anyone…anyone? Sure Herman Cain is interesting…for now. I wonder if his mentioning of the “999″ plan in the previous Fox/You Tube debate was premature. He doesn’t seem to have any substantive explanation of how it would really play out. It’s a catchy sounding plan and Americans like a good ad campaign but I want to know more before I consider changing my mind.

    I think the only four that still stand a chance for the nomination are Perry, Romney, Paul, and ??? (Cain or Gingrich). Paul has my vote for now and it would take a lot to change that.

  • TLB in Minnesota

    Ron Paul? Anyone…anyone? Sure Herman Cain is interesting…for now. I wonder if his mentioning of the “999″ plan in the previous Fox/You Tube debate was premature. He doesn’t seem to have any substantive explanation of how it would really play out. It’s a catchy sounding plan and Americans like a good ad campaign but I want to know more before I consider changing my mind.

    I think the only four that still stand a chance for the nomination are Perry, Romney, Paul, and ??? (Cain or Gingrich). Paul has my vote for now and it would take a lot to change that.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    CRB (@24), it saddens me that comments like mine — yes, it was very tongue-in-cheek; I’m a Lutheran — could even conceivably be read as serious.

    I suppose that’s as good a demonstration of “Poe’s Law” as any:

    Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won’t mistake for the real thing.

    I hereby append this explanatory winky-smiley face to my earlier comment (@16) ;) .

    That said, I’m still waiting for several years of winky-smiley faces from Carl Vehse.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    CRB (@24), it saddens me that comments like mine — yes, it was very tongue-in-cheek; I’m a Lutheran — could even conceivably be read as serious.

    I suppose that’s as good a demonstration of “Poe’s Law” as any:

    Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won’t mistake for the real thing.

    I hereby append this explanatory winky-smiley face to my earlier comment (@16) ;) .

    That said, I’m still waiting for several years of winky-smiley faces from Carl Vehse.

  • CRB

    tODD @35,
    What gave me pause was your comment, “You Lutherans…” That’s the only reason I asked if you were serious. I’ll try to remember to mentally insert a smiley face next time I have doubts. : )

  • CRB

    tODD @35,
    What gave me pause was your comment, “You Lutherans…” That’s the only reason I asked if you were serious. I’ll try to remember to mentally insert a smiley face next time I have doubts. : )

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    And, folks, let’s stay on the topic of presidential candidates, if you please, as opposed to how different church bodies handle the qualifications for the pastoral office. Thanks. Carry on. . .

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    And, folks, let’s stay on the topic of presidential candidates, if you please, as opposed to how different church bodies handle the qualifications for the pastoral office. Thanks. Carry on. . .

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith

    I agree!

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith

    I agree!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Dr. Veith! Why did you call him “Paul Johnson” — both in your comment (@20), and in your addition to the original post? Best I can tell, “Paul Johnson” is either (1) your confusing Ron Paul with Gary Johnson, or (2) the current coach for Georgia Tech, who is also not likely to win the Republican nomination.

    Man, if Gary Johnson’s getting this kind of “recognition” on a Republican-friendly blog, he’s kind of already doomed, isn’t he?

    Also, Wikipedia says that Gary Johnson is a Lutheran.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Dr. Veith! Why did you call him “Paul Johnson” — both in your comment (@20), and in your addition to the original post? Best I can tell, “Paul Johnson” is either (1) your confusing Ron Paul with Gary Johnson, or (2) the current coach for Georgia Tech, who is also not likely to win the Republican nomination.

    Man, if Gary Johnson’s getting this kind of “recognition” on a Republican-friendly blog, he’s kind of already doomed, isn’t he?

    Also, Wikipedia says that Gary Johnson is a Lutheran.

  • Jonathan

    Is any Christian even slightly made uneasy by Cain’s pizza company being called “Godfather”? Is that really a term by which to sell a product?

  • Jonathan

    Is any Christian even slightly made uneasy by Cain’s pizza company being called “Godfather”? Is that really a term by which to sell a product?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jonathan (@40), seriously?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jonathan (@40), seriously?

  • Grace

    Jonathan @ 40

    Never thought of it that way.

    The dicitonary defines “Godfather”

    Godfather
    1. A man who sponsors a person at baptism.
    2. One that has a relationship to another person or to something that is the equivalent of being a baptismal sponsor: the godfather of a new generation of nuclear physicists.
    3. Slang The leader of an organized crime family.
    tr.v. god·fa·thered, god·fa·ther·ing, god·fa·thers
    To serve as or as if a godfather to.

    godfather [ˈgɒdˌfɑːðə]
    n
    1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a male godparent
    2. the head of a Mafia family or other organized criminal ring
    3. an originator or leading exponent the godfather of South African pop

    Interesting……

  • Grace

    Jonathan @ 40

    Never thought of it that way.

    The dicitonary defines “Godfather”

    Godfather
    1. A man who sponsors a person at baptism.
    2. One that has a relationship to another person or to something that is the equivalent of being a baptismal sponsor: the godfather of a new generation of nuclear physicists.
    3. Slang The leader of an organized crime family.
    tr.v. god·fa·thered, god·fa·ther·ing, god·fa·thers
    To serve as or as if a godfather to.

    godfather [ˈgɒdˌfɑːðə]
    n
    1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a male godparent
    2. the head of a Mafia family or other organized criminal ring
    3. an originator or leading exponent the godfather of South African pop

    Interesting……

  • Grace

    Jonathan @ 40

    You do realize that Cain went to work for the company after it had already been named, and losing money ? Cain didn’t name the company – I don’t care for the name, but I doubt it has any sinister meaning.

  • Grace

    Jonathan @ 40

    You do realize that Cain went to work for the company after it had already been named, and losing money ? Cain didn’t name the company – I don’t care for the name, but I doubt it has any sinister meaning.

  • Jonathan

    tODD, yes.
    Years ago I heard comedian/activist Dick Gregory mention the movie “The Godfather” in a similar vein, that the word’s a little too close to “God [the] Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” for Christians to loosely throw around, much less grant to a crime boss. Gregory’s conclusion was to protest it.

    Further, I once heard a WELS pastor devote a sermon to denouncing the ubiquitous TV phrase “Oh My God” as practically blasphemy. I’ve used “Godfather” myself many times; I’m not casting stones at Cain, I just was thinking that it’s an odd corporate name for a man who, apparently, serves as an assistant Baptist minister, or whatnot. Thanks, Grace, for providing the definitions.

  • Jonathan

    tODD, yes.
    Years ago I heard comedian/activist Dick Gregory mention the movie “The Godfather” in a similar vein, that the word’s a little too close to “God [the] Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” for Christians to loosely throw around, much less grant to a crime boss. Gregory’s conclusion was to protest it.

    Further, I once heard a WELS pastor devote a sermon to denouncing the ubiquitous TV phrase “Oh My God” as practically blasphemy. I’ve used “Godfather” myself many times; I’m not casting stones at Cain, I just was thinking that it’s an odd corporate name for a man who, apparently, serves as an assistant Baptist minister, or whatnot. Thanks, Grace, for providing the definitions.

  • Grace

    Jonathan @44

    I agree that God’s name is used ‘in vain’ – I don’t do it, I’m very fearful of using it that way. It bothers me when anyone uses HIS name in ‘vain.

    I did have godparents for a child of mine,….. I would not do it again, I don’t think it’s right.

  • Grace

    Jonathan @44

    I agree that God’s name is used ‘in vain’ – I don’t do it, I’m very fearful of using it that way. It bothers me when anyone uses HIS name in ‘vain.

    I did have godparents for a child of mine,….. I would not do it again, I don’t think it’s right.

  • Grace

    Many things to consider in the forthcoming race – by no means is anything settled. I do believe Romney is a bad choice, as well as Huntsmann and Bachmann. Two are cultists, the other has issues that don’t fit – nor does she have the experience, plus she’s a woman – I don’t care what anyone says, women don’t belong in this kind of leadership.

  • Grace

    Many things to consider in the forthcoming race – by no means is anything settled. I do believe Romney is a bad choice, as well as Huntsmann and Bachmann. Two are cultists, the other has issues that don’t fit – nor does she have the experience, plus she’s a woman – I don’t care what anyone says, women don’t belong in this kind of leadership.

  • Jonathan

    @46, Grace, I respect your views, but you must admit you’ll take a cultist or an unfit woman over the Christian in the White House now, right?

  • Jonathan

    @46, Grace, I respect your views, but you must admit you’ll take a cultist or an unfit woman over the Christian in the White House now, right?

  • Grace

    Jonathan @ 47

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, I respect your views, but you must admit you’ll take a cultist or an unfit woman over the Christian in the White House now, right?”

    No I will not – I will not vote for a cultist – if either one is on the ticket, the vote for president will be left BLANK!

    As for Bachmann, that would be a tough call for me.

  • Grace

    Jonathan @ 47

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, I respect your views, but you must admit you’ll take a cultist or an unfit woman over the Christian in the White House now, right?”

    No I will not – I will not vote for a cultist – if either one is on the ticket, the vote for president will be left BLANK!

    As for Bachmann, that would be a tough call for me.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jonathan (@44, 40) … okay then, no, I’m not made uneasy — not even slightly — by his being CEO of Godfather’s Pizza.

    This seems like a remarkably picky brand of legalism. Shall we also criticize Cain for being previously affiliated with Burger King — that name, of course, being a little too close to the title of “King of Kings”?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jonathan (@44, 40) … okay then, no, I’m not made uneasy — not even slightly — by his being CEO of Godfather’s Pizza.

    This seems like a remarkably picky brand of legalism. Shall we also criticize Cain for being previously affiliated with Burger King — that name, of course, being a little too close to the title of “King of Kings”?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace, I can’t help but notice that you’re no longer trumpeting Perry like you used to. Surely that means something for his candidacy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace, I can’t help but notice that you’re no longer trumpeting Perry like you used to. Surely that means something for his candidacy.

  • Joe

    Godfather pizza is in the top 5 for pizza I have had and is the number chain pizza. We used to go to the one across the street from Lambeau Field all the time when I was a kid.

  • Joe

    Godfather pizza is in the top 5 for pizza I have had and is the number chain pizza. We used to go to the one across the street from Lambeau Field all the time when I was a kid.

  • Grace

    tODD

    I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain. What Perry has is experience. Perry has been a good Governor. Cain has never run for office, he has no experience within the realm of Governorship, Senate or House – I grant you, he has been successful in business, but that doesn’t hold a candle to solid experience within politics, world affairs, and the problems this nation faces because of the so called recession.

    We are moving very fast down the road to more problems, such as unrest within the U.S. jobs, foreign affairs, wars, terrorism. Everyday we read about more disgruntled people, ranting and raving in front of one state building or another. People are becoming un-hinged, crime is rising.

    Just this afternoon about 1:30 Pacific time – a man walked into an up-scale hair salon in Seal Beach (Pacific Coast HWY) shot and killed 6 people and injured 3. The motive is unknown at this time. The man is in custody.

    Perry has dealt with jobs, immigration, the border and all it’s problems which we’ve discussed on this blog man times. He is far more capable than someone who has been successful running a pizza business.

  • Grace

    tODD

    I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain. What Perry has is experience. Perry has been a good Governor. Cain has never run for office, he has no experience within the realm of Governorship, Senate or House – I grant you, he has been successful in business, but that doesn’t hold a candle to solid experience within politics, world affairs, and the problems this nation faces because of the so called recession.

    We are moving very fast down the road to more problems, such as unrest within the U.S. jobs, foreign affairs, wars, terrorism. Everyday we read about more disgruntled people, ranting and raving in front of one state building or another. People are becoming un-hinged, crime is rising.

    Just this afternoon about 1:30 Pacific time – a man walked into an up-scale hair salon in Seal Beach (Pacific Coast HWY) shot and killed 6 people and injured 3. The motive is unknown at this time. The man is in custody.

    Perry has dealt with jobs, immigration, the border and all it’s problems which we’ve discussed on this blog man times. He is far more capable than someone who has been successful running a pizza business.

  • JunkerGeorg

    As president, I’d much rather have an atheist who would be faithful to/guided by the Constitution in setting policy than I would any Christian who wouldn’t be.

  • JunkerGeorg

    As president, I’d much rather have an atheist who would be faithful to/guided by the Constitution in setting policy than I would any Christian who wouldn’t be.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain.”

    I heard a guy laugh at the notion that the best debater is generally the best for the office. He went on to say that we could probably find some really good trial lawyers that could really win a debate. But so what, should we just pick the one who is the best in a debate? It was an interesting point.

    Perry’s image was severely tarnished by his support of resident tuition for illegal alien students. It is pretty foolish for folks to get so torqued over such stuff because the number of illegal alien students who could even get into college, let alone stay there more than a semester is tiny. And the very few who could might as well be educated because the federal government is never going to kick them out.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain.”

    I heard a guy laugh at the notion that the best debater is generally the best for the office. He went on to say that we could probably find some really good trial lawyers that could really win a debate. But so what, should we just pick the one who is the best in a debate? It was an interesting point.

    Perry’s image was severely tarnished by his support of resident tuition for illegal alien students. It is pretty foolish for folks to get so torqued over such stuff because the number of illegal alien students who could even get into college, let alone stay there more than a semester is tiny. And the very few who could might as well be educated because the federal government is never going to kick them out.

  • Grace

    sg @ 54

    You wrote: ““I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain.”

    You should have finished my sentence, which made the meaning clear, but left out that which is bolded belwo:

    “I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain. What Perry has is experience.

    YOU WROTE: “Perry’s image was severely tarnished by his support of resident tuition for illegal alien students. It is pretty foolish for folks to get so torqued over such stuff because the number of illegal alien students who could even get into college, let alone stay there more than a semester is tiny.

    It’s growing much faster than you might realize. Illegal alien’s aren’t stupid, nor are they unable to learn. If that is what you believe….. you’re wrong. I live in Southern CA, there are a great many young people who are from our southern border, but they are far from ignorant – the game is changing daily – we might as well get used to it. Remember, I live where it’s taking place.

    I doubt that illegals will be returned to their respective countries south of the border, no matter how illegal they or their parents are, – OR if their mother gave birth to them in the U.S. I don’t like it, but I am willing to work with the problem at hand, that is not going to change.

    When children of all ages, and young adults learn to work, rather than depend on their skin color, they will do well. Those from foreign countries, be it south of the border or otherwise know the definition of hard work.

    Can you imagine any of our kids cleaning houses, or mowing lawns, climbing trees to trim them? Their’s do!

    Can yo imagine some of the kids today flipping burgers at the Golden Arches? – I have heard some of the snarky reasons why the second generation won’t…… that’s why it’s going to be a race to finish line.

    Rick Perry has a vision, it’s one that I hadn’t thought of, but he did/does. It’s for this reason I’m more than interested. He might just be the man for the impossible job of President of the USA.

  • Grace

    sg @ 54

    You wrote: ““I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain.”

    You should have finished my sentence, which made the meaning clear, but left out that which is bolded belwo:

    “I am still in favor of Rick Perry, at this point in time – He doesn’t have the debating skills that Romney has, or Cain. What Perry has is experience.

    YOU WROTE: “Perry’s image was severely tarnished by his support of resident tuition for illegal alien students. It is pretty foolish for folks to get so torqued over such stuff because the number of illegal alien students who could even get into college, let alone stay there more than a semester is tiny.

    It’s growing much faster than you might realize. Illegal alien’s aren’t stupid, nor are they unable to learn. If that is what you believe….. you’re wrong. I live in Southern CA, there are a great many young people who are from our southern border, but they are far from ignorant – the game is changing daily – we might as well get used to it. Remember, I live where it’s taking place.

    I doubt that illegals will be returned to their respective countries south of the border, no matter how illegal they or their parents are, – OR if their mother gave birth to them in the U.S. I don’t like it, but I am willing to work with the problem at hand, that is not going to change.

    When children of all ages, and young adults learn to work, rather than depend on their skin color, they will do well. Those from foreign countries, be it south of the border or otherwise know the definition of hard work.

    Can you imagine any of our kids cleaning houses, or mowing lawns, climbing trees to trim them? Their’s do!

    Can yo imagine some of the kids today flipping burgers at the Golden Arches? – I have heard some of the snarky reasons why the second generation won’t…… that’s why it’s going to be a race to finish line.

    Rick Perry has a vision, it’s one that I hadn’t thought of, but he did/does. It’s for this reason I’m more than interested. He might just be the man for the impossible job of President of the USA.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s growing much faster than you might realize. Illegal alien’s aren’t stupid, nor are they unable to learn. If that is what you believe….. you’re wrong.”

    I have seen their SAT scores. LOW. These kids won’t be enrolled at UT or A&M for long even if they do manage to get in. The third and fourth generations perform even worse. Not happy to say that, but it makes more sense to just face it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s growing much faster than you might realize. Illegal alien’s aren’t stupid, nor are they unable to learn. If that is what you believe….. you’re wrong.”

    I have seen their SAT scores. LOW. These kids won’t be enrolled at UT or A&M for long even if they do manage to get in. The third and fourth generations perform even worse. Not happy to say that, but it makes more sense to just face it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Rick Perry would be very interesting as a president and could be quite successful if what he does in Washington is anything like what he did in Texas. If he could cut spending and clean out crazies from the bureaucracy, that alone would be a huge improvement. I bet he would love to eliminate the Dept. of Ed. and Dept. of Energy. Huge bureaucracies that have completely failed in their founding missions. Both have added cost without improving on any of the metrics they were supposed to address.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Rick Perry would be very interesting as a president and could be quite successful if what he does in Washington is anything like what he did in Texas. If he could cut spending and clean out crazies from the bureaucracy, that alone would be a huge improvement. I bet he would love to eliminate the Dept. of Ed. and Dept. of Energy. Huge bureaucracies that have completely failed in their founding missions. Both have added cost without improving on any of the metrics they were supposed to address.

  • Grace

    sg – 57

    YOU WROTE: “I have seen their SAT scores. LOW. These kids won’t be enrolled at UT or A&M for long even if they do manage to get in. The third and fourth generations perform even worse. Not happy to say that, but it makes more sense to just face it.”

    You have a stilted view of those who are born south of the border. I agree their scores are low, but there is a reason for that, for the most part, it’s called learning the English language.

    The main problem is; they have not learned the English language FIRST, instead they have been allowed to continue using Spanish, which will never give them the needed skill to go forward.

    The attitude of “we are smarter then they and I can prove it” isn’t kind, nor is it a Christian way to treat the situation. Those from south of the border are here to stay, ( it isn’t my first choice, but it is not going to change) it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.

  • Grace

    sg – 57

    YOU WROTE: “I have seen their SAT scores. LOW. These kids won’t be enrolled at UT or A&M for long even if they do manage to get in. The third and fourth generations perform even worse. Not happy to say that, but it makes more sense to just face it.”

    You have a stilted view of those who are born south of the border. I agree their scores are low, but there is a reason for that, for the most part, it’s called learning the English language.

    The main problem is; they have not learned the English language FIRST, instead they have been allowed to continue using Spanish, which will never give them the needed skill to go forward.

    The attitude of “we are smarter then they and I can prove it” isn’t kind, nor is it a Christian way to treat the situation. Those from south of the border are here to stay, ( it isn’t my first choice, but it is not going to change) it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.

  • jim_claybourn

    The Godfather’s Pizza name as I remember was linked to their original ad campaign in the 1980′s: “A Pizza You Can’t Refuse”, capitalizing on the Godfather movie catch phrase “an offer you can’t refuse”.

    Nothing theological about it.

  • jim_claybourn

    The Godfather’s Pizza name as I remember was linked to their original ad campaign in the 1980′s: “A Pizza You Can’t Refuse”, capitalizing on the Godfather movie catch phrase “an offer you can’t refuse”.

    Nothing theological about it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The attitude of “we are smarter then they and I can prove it” isn’t kind, nor is it a Christian way to treat the situation. Those from south of the border are here to stay, ( it isn’t my first choice, but it is not going to change) it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.

    Hilarious. Like my attitude somehow matters. It doesn’t. What matters is their low performance. Oh, and the two are unrelated.

    ” Those from south of the border are here to stay,”

    So is their low academic performance.

    “it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.”

    Why would it be good? What difference would it make? I am not a Buddhist.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The attitude of “we are smarter then they and I can prove it” isn’t kind, nor is it a Christian way to treat the situation. Those from south of the border are here to stay, ( it isn’t my first choice, but it is not going to change) it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.

    Hilarious. Like my attitude somehow matters. It doesn’t. What matters is their low performance. Oh, and the two are unrelated.

    ” Those from south of the border are here to stay,”

    So is their low academic performance.

    “it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.”

    Why would it be good? What difference would it make? I am not a Buddhist.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You have a stilted view of those who are born south of the border. I agree their scores are low, but there is a reason for that, for the most part, it’s called learning the English language.”

    Not in the 3rd and 4th generation which are lower performing than the 2nd generation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You have a stilted view of those who are born south of the border. I agree their scores are low, but there is a reason for that, for the most part, it’s called learning the English language.”

    Not in the 3rd and 4th generation which are lower performing than the 2nd generation.

  • Grace

    sg @ 60

    I WROTE: ““it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.”

    YOU WROTE: “Why would it be good? What difference would it make? I am not a Buddhist.”

    Those who aren’t from south of the border are not ‘superior races, nor should they think of themselves as better -

  • Grace

    sg @ 60

    I WROTE: ““it would be good to take a different attitude, rather than throwing ones nose in the air.”

    YOU WROTE: “Why would it be good? What difference would it make? I am not a Buddhist.”

    Those who aren’t from south of the border are not ‘superior races, nor should they think of themselves as better -

  • Grace

    sg @ 61

    YOU WROTE: “Not in the 3rd and 4th generation which are lower performing than the 2nd generation.”

    Many are from 3rd and 4th generations, their families still speak Spanish at home, the children are BEHIND, before they ever enter school. As I said before, ENGLISH needs to be taught, rather than trying to teach in Spanish, which only makes the problem worse, and accomplishes nothing.

  • Grace

    sg @ 61

    YOU WROTE: “Not in the 3rd and 4th generation which are lower performing than the 2nd generation.”

    Many are from 3rd and 4th generations, their families still speak Spanish at home, the children are BEHIND, before they ever enter school. As I said before, ENGLISH needs to be taught, rather than trying to teach in Spanish, which only makes the problem worse, and accomplishes nothing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those who aren’t from south of the border are not ‘superior races,”

    Okay, so what?

    “nor should they think of themselves as better -”

    Why does it matter what they think? Why does it matter what anyone thinks?

    Actions are what matters. The fact is these folks are treated better here, and perform better here, but still not many are going to be attending UT or A&M despite admissions policies that have established lower academic requirements for them. These are established facts, not my opinion. So, anyway, there is little point in getting torqued because the qualify for resident tuition rates because their utilization rate is so low. There is plenty of reason for concern about their Medicaid utilization rates which includes millions of children.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those who aren’t from south of the border are not ‘superior races,”

    Okay, so what?

    “nor should they think of themselves as better -”

    Why does it matter what they think? Why does it matter what anyone thinks?

    Actions are what matters. The fact is these folks are treated better here, and perform better here, but still not many are going to be attending UT or A&M despite admissions policies that have established lower academic requirements for them. These are established facts, not my opinion. So, anyway, there is little point in getting torqued because the qualify for resident tuition rates because their utilization rate is so low. There is plenty of reason for concern about their Medicaid utilization rates which includes millions of children.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Why would it be good? What difference would it make? I am not a Buddhist.”

    “Those who aren’t from south of the border are not ‘superior races, nor should they think of themselves as better -”

    FWIW, this is a total non-sequitur. I asked why it would be good and you gave no answer to that, rather just a platitude about what you think people should think. Thought police? or what?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Why would it be good? What difference would it make? I am not a Buddhist.”

    “Those who aren’t from south of the border are not ‘superior races, nor should they think of themselves as better -”

    FWIW, this is a total non-sequitur. I asked why it would be good and you gave no answer to that, rather just a platitude about what you think people should think. Thought police? or what?

  • Grace

    sg

    YOU WROTE: “FWIW, this is a total non-sequitur. I asked why it would be good and you gave no answer to that, rather just a platitude about what you think people should think. Thought police? or what?”

    No, it’s not a “non-sequitur” – it hit a nerve.

    All the

    “Okay, so what?

    Why does it matter what they think? Why does it matter what anyone thinks?”

    phrases, are not kind. The LORD told us to love our neighbors as ourselves – What people think does matter. Their attitudes are worn like a badge, whether they state their superiority or not.

    Attending UT or A&M is not the end all.

  • Grace

    sg

    YOU WROTE: “FWIW, this is a total non-sequitur. I asked why it would be good and you gave no answer to that, rather just a platitude about what you think people should think. Thought police? or what?”

    No, it’s not a “non-sequitur” – it hit a nerve.

    All the

    “Okay, so what?

    Why does it matter what they think? Why does it matter what anyone thinks?”

    phrases, are not kind. The LORD told us to love our neighbors as ourselves – What people think does matter. Their attitudes are worn like a badge, whether they state their superiority or not.

    Attending UT or A&M is not the end all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “No, it’s not a “non-sequitur” – ”

    Yes, it is. It doesn’t answer the question as to why it would be good, or how it would matter what one person thinks.

    “it hit a nerve.”

    Ah, yes, overwhelmed by emotion.

    Try to just think calmly about why it matters. Maybe there is a reason that you could actually come up with that makes sense. Of course, I don’t know what it would be but then that is why I am asking the question.

    “phrases, are not kind.”

    Which phrases?

    “The LORD told us to love our neighbors as ourselves”

    Yeah, I see no disconnect. I can love my neighbor as myself while noticing that his SAT score is really low. It is not like I hate people with low scores.

    “What people think does matter.”

    Like, can you explain how it matters what one person thinks?

    “Their attitudes are worn like a badge, whether they state their superiority or not.”

    Not convinced. Plenty of really nice people work in education and day in day out they see the same pattern of achievement. They know it exists, and they just treat each person as an individual within the admissions guidelines. Let me assure you Asians know they outscore others and I don’t suspect them of anything untoward just because they know they are at the top.

    “Attending UT or A&M is not the end all.”

    Yeah, I agree.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “No, it’s not a “non-sequitur” – ”

    Yes, it is. It doesn’t answer the question as to why it would be good, or how it would matter what one person thinks.

    “it hit a nerve.”

    Ah, yes, overwhelmed by emotion.

    Try to just think calmly about why it matters. Maybe there is a reason that you could actually come up with that makes sense. Of course, I don’t know what it would be but then that is why I am asking the question.

    “phrases, are not kind.”

    Which phrases?

    “The LORD told us to love our neighbors as ourselves”

    Yeah, I see no disconnect. I can love my neighbor as myself while noticing that his SAT score is really low. It is not like I hate people with low scores.

    “What people think does matter.”

    Like, can you explain how it matters what one person thinks?

    “Their attitudes are worn like a badge, whether they state their superiority or not.”

    Not convinced. Plenty of really nice people work in education and day in day out they see the same pattern of achievement. They know it exists, and they just treat each person as an individual within the admissions guidelines. Let me assure you Asians know they outscore others and I don’t suspect them of anything untoward just because they know they are at the top.

    “Attending UT or A&M is not the end all.”

    Yeah, I agree.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Yeah, I see no disconnect. I can love my neighbor as myself while noticing that his SAT score is really low. It is not like I hate people with low scores.”

    With this remark, and other ‘superior race comments, I wish you Goodnight!

  • Grace

    sg,

    Yeah, I see no disconnect. I can love my neighbor as myself while noticing that his SAT score is really low. It is not like I hate people with low scores.”

    With this remark, and other ‘superior race comments, I wish you Goodnight!

  • Grace

    My post above @ 68 should read:

    With this remark, and other ‘superior ethnic comments, I wish you Goodnight!

  • Grace

    My post above @ 68 should read:

    With this remark, and other ‘superior ethnic comments, I wish you Goodnight!

  • kerner

    sg@64 you said:

    there is little point in getting torqued because the qualify for resident tuition rates because their utilization rate is so low. There is plenty of reason for concern about their Medicaid utilization rates which includes millions of children.

    Your concern about the drain on tax money that hispanic Medicaid utilization soaks up is somewht undermined by your first point.

    Hispanic (especially illegal hispanic) utilization of the UT system is very low because their test scores are low. But the Texae tax system is basically a sales tax system, which means that Hispanics, even the illegal ones, are paying Texas taxes every time they buy something. The practical effect of this is that all those taxes paid by all those illegal hispanics are being used to fund a state university system that will be used almost exclusively to educate whites and Asians (who will, in turn, make a lot of money, which will grow the economy, which will generate additional tax revenue).

    It might seem pretty unfair at first blush that all of that hispanic tax money goes to fund an educational system that will be almost exclusively used to help whites and Asians get rich, until you take into account all the things that help the poor hispanics that whites and Asians have to pay for. I guess these things balance out.

    But for the odd, exceptional hispanic who actually DOES get into the UT system, It certainly does seem fair that some of all that hispanic tax money that most hispanics will never get the benefit of will give one or two hispanics the benefit of in-state tuition. Bravo Perry.

  • kerner

    sg@64 you said:

    there is little point in getting torqued because the qualify for resident tuition rates because their utilization rate is so low. There is plenty of reason for concern about their Medicaid utilization rates which includes millions of children.

    Your concern about the drain on tax money that hispanic Medicaid utilization soaks up is somewht undermined by your first point.

    Hispanic (especially illegal hispanic) utilization of the UT system is very low because their test scores are low. But the Texae tax system is basically a sales tax system, which means that Hispanics, even the illegal ones, are paying Texas taxes every time they buy something. The practical effect of this is that all those taxes paid by all those illegal hispanics are being used to fund a state university system that will be used almost exclusively to educate whites and Asians (who will, in turn, make a lot of money, which will grow the economy, which will generate additional tax revenue).

    It might seem pretty unfair at first blush that all of that hispanic tax money goes to fund an educational system that will be almost exclusively used to help whites and Asians get rich, until you take into account all the things that help the poor hispanics that whites and Asians have to pay for. I guess these things balance out.

    But for the odd, exceptional hispanic who actually DOES get into the UT system, It certainly does seem fair that some of all that hispanic tax money that most hispanics will never get the benefit of will give one or two hispanics the benefit of in-state tuition. Bravo Perry.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 70

    “But for the odd, exceptional hispanic who actually DOES get into the UT system, It certainly does seem fair that some of all that hispanic tax money that most hispanics will never get the benefit of will give one or two hispanics the benefit of in-state tuition. Bravo Perry.

    I second it – “Bravo Perry”.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 70

    “But for the odd, exceptional hispanic who actually DOES get into the UT system, It certainly does seem fair that some of all that hispanic tax money that most hispanics will never get the benefit of will give one or two hispanics the benefit of in-state tuition. Bravo Perry.

    I second it – “Bravo Perry”.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I basically agree, but you can’t discount the cost of k-12 ed and Medicaid etc. Assuming 13 years of public ed at $12k per year, that is around $150k. Sales tax is about 8%. So, let’s make this a fun 5th grade word problem. How many $$ does an illegal have to spend for his sales tax to exceed the cost of one of his kid’s public education? Sales tax only funds the state’s contribution to public ed. The rest comes from local property tax which illegals also pay at the rate of about 2.5% of appraised value of their domicile. Taxes in Texas are more like Europe, less progressive aka more equal, and hard to dodge.

    The bottom line is that the folks who hire illegals make money from underpaying them and enriching themselves while their costs are socialized and they are a net cost. Because their performance has not increased in the subsequent generations (persistent low earning, high dependency/criminality), they are shaping up to be a permanent underclass although not every single one, of course, but on average.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner, I basically agree, but you can’t discount the cost of k-12 ed and Medicaid etc. Assuming 13 years of public ed at $12k per year, that is around $150k. Sales tax is about 8%. So, let’s make this a fun 5th grade word problem. How many $$ does an illegal have to spend for his sales tax to exceed the cost of one of his kid’s public education? Sales tax only funds the state’s contribution to public ed. The rest comes from local property tax which illegals also pay at the rate of about 2.5% of appraised value of their domicile. Taxes in Texas are more like Europe, less progressive aka more equal, and hard to dodge.

    The bottom line is that the folks who hire illegals make money from underpaying them and enriching themselves while their costs are socialized and they are a net cost. Because their performance has not increased in the subsequent generations (persistent low earning, high dependency/criminality), they are shaping up to be a permanent underclass although not every single one, of course, but on average.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oh, I almost forgot the most regressive tax of all, and one that allegedly goes to education, the Lottery. Illegals probably pay a lot in Lottery tax. The beauty is that it is totally voluntary. Over $62 billion paid by volunteers so far. Over $19 billion to state coffers.
    Lottery Revenue

    Seriously, though, would you consider the Lottery to be tax on the cash economy? I am guessing that the folks who work in the cash economy would be more likely to play the Lottery and may pay less in the form of taxes that involve more paperwork.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oh, I almost forgot the most regressive tax of all, and one that allegedly goes to education, the Lottery. Illegals probably pay a lot in Lottery tax. The beauty is that it is totally voluntary. Over $62 billion paid by volunteers so far. Over $19 billion to state coffers.
    Lottery Revenue

    Seriously, though, would you consider the Lottery to be tax on the cash economy? I am guessing that the folks who work in the cash economy would be more likely to play the Lottery and may pay less in the form of taxes that involve more paperwork.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “With this remark, and other ‘superior ethnic comments, I wish you Goodnight!”

    It is like a caricature. The phony moral superiority. What a joke. No reasoned response that is even on topic.

    I guess Grace can’t come up with a reason why it would be “good to take a different attitude” about her perception that “Those from south of the border are here to stay, ( it isn’t my first choice, but it is not going to change)”

    At least I gave an objective reason not based on prejudice or hate.
    Grace says it isn’t her first choice and gives no reason. I gave her the benefit of the doubt that her reason isn’t something malicious, still no clarification.

    I have no problem with folks from anywhere coming here so long as they aren’t violent or persistently dependent. Illegals are both. Grace thinks it would be good to change that attitude for no stated reason.

    Grace on the other hand doesn’t want them here, just because.

    So, Grace, just clarify. That’s all I am asking. I figured you would infer all of what I have written here, when I asked you why it would be “good” to have a different attitude. You went off on a tangent, maybe due to misconstruing the point I was making.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “With this remark, and other ‘superior ethnic comments, I wish you Goodnight!”

    It is like a caricature. The phony moral superiority. What a joke. No reasoned response that is even on topic.

    I guess Grace can’t come up with a reason why it would be “good to take a different attitude” about her perception that “Those from south of the border are here to stay, ( it isn’t my first choice, but it is not going to change)”

    At least I gave an objective reason not based on prejudice or hate.
    Grace says it isn’t her first choice and gives no reason. I gave her the benefit of the doubt that her reason isn’t something malicious, still no clarification.

    I have no problem with folks from anywhere coming here so long as they aren’t violent or persistently dependent. Illegals are both. Grace thinks it would be good to change that attitude for no stated reason.

    Grace on the other hand doesn’t want them here, just because.

    So, Grace, just clarify. That’s all I am asking. I figured you would infer all of what I have written here, when I asked you why it would be “good” to have a different attitude. You went off on a tangent, maybe due to misconstruing the point I was making.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As I said before, ENGLISH needs to be taught, rather than trying to teach in Spanish, which only makes the problem worse, and accomplishes nothing.”

    Well, it could improve their literacy and academic achievement in Spanish which would help them if they return to their home countries.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As I said before, ENGLISH needs to be taught, rather than trying to teach in Spanish, which only makes the problem worse, and accomplishes nothing.”

    Well, it could improve their literacy and academic achievement in Spanish which would help them if they return to their home countries.

  • Grace

    The very people whom many find objectionable, because they have migrated from south of the border, are often the very people who work in nursing homes, assisted living, and elsewhere, in similar occupations. Taking care of those who can no longer dress themselves, or in some cases feed themselves. All too many have lost control of their bladder and bowels, needing to use products such as ‘Depends’ – these same south of the border people who never attended college ATTEND to the needs of those who are ‘DEPENDENT upon others for their care, in the most personal manner imaginable.

    One might find themselves in the position mentioned above later in life, OR because of an unexpected illness or accident while they are still young, never imagining themselves being cared for, by the very people they found to be to ignorant to attend college, but are not lovingly caring for us in our time of need. There aren’t too many people who are anxious to do such difficult work- RN’s and LV’s don’t attend to these needs, it is done by those who most always are ‘not formally educated.

    God help us, when we can’t awake to the differences of our neighbors, understanding that God has made a place for each one, designing the whole, to fit just right, even though our small minds are not able to comprehend it just now.

    I was very resentful of illegal aliens, .. and I still find their ‘breaking the law to come here, and dishonesty as to how they stay here, not to my taste. But I have come to understand we cannot send millions of people back home, it’s not going to happen. WE are the ones that need to change, we will need to make room for those who are here. Let’s do it with love, rather than with numbers, either trumped up, or real, but all the same mean spirited, when solving the problem can only be done with love in our hearts, not just for our own, but for those who have done everything they could to come to a safer place, as the United States.

    Instead, let us forge ahead to deport those (the number is not small) people who have committed crimes, be they burglary, armed or otherwise, murder, rape, child molesters, drug dealers, drug runners, etc., they should be deported, never to be allowed back in the U.S. Our prisons and jails are full, lets work on that problem, by deporting those who are illegal, who have been found guilty of their crimes.

  • Grace

    The very people whom many find objectionable, because they have migrated from south of the border, are often the very people who work in nursing homes, assisted living, and elsewhere, in similar occupations. Taking care of those who can no longer dress themselves, or in some cases feed themselves. All too many have lost control of their bladder and bowels, needing to use products such as ‘Depends’ – these same south of the border people who never attended college ATTEND to the needs of those who are ‘DEPENDENT upon others for their care, in the most personal manner imaginable.

    One might find themselves in the position mentioned above later in life, OR because of an unexpected illness or accident while they are still young, never imagining themselves being cared for, by the very people they found to be to ignorant to attend college, but are not lovingly caring for us in our time of need. There aren’t too many people who are anxious to do such difficult work- RN’s and LV’s don’t attend to these needs, it is done by those who most always are ‘not formally educated.

    God help us, when we can’t awake to the differences of our neighbors, understanding that God has made a place for each one, designing the whole, to fit just right, even though our small minds are not able to comprehend it just now.

    I was very resentful of illegal aliens, .. and I still find their ‘breaking the law to come here, and dishonesty as to how they stay here, not to my taste. But I have come to understand we cannot send millions of people back home, it’s not going to happen. WE are the ones that need to change, we will need to make room for those who are here. Let’s do it with love, rather than with numbers, either trumped up, or real, but all the same mean spirited, when solving the problem can only be done with love in our hearts, not just for our own, but for those who have done everything they could to come to a safer place, as the United States.

    Instead, let us forge ahead to deport those (the number is not small) people who have committed crimes, be they burglary, armed or otherwise, murder, rape, child molesters, drug dealers, drug runners, etc., they should be deported, never to be allowed back in the U.S. Our prisons and jails are full, lets work on that problem, by deporting those who are illegal, who have been found guilty of their crimes.

  • Grace

    Post 76 should read:

    “One might find themselves in the position mentioned above later in life, OR because of an unexpected illness or accident while they are still young, never imagining themselves being cared for, by the very people they found to be to ignorant to attend college, but are NOW, lovingly caring for us in our time of need.”

  • Grace

    Post 76 should read:

    “One might find themselves in the position mentioned above later in life, OR because of an unexpected illness or accident while they are still young, never imagining themselves being cared for, by the very people they found to be to ignorant to attend college, but are NOW, lovingly caring for us in our time of need.”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Let’s do it with love, rather than with numbers, either trumped up, or real, but all the same mean spirited,”

    Ah, yes, those mean old numbers. The numbers just quantify what is going on.

    “when solving the problem can only be done with love in our hearts,”

    The thing is, it is not a problem to be solved. It is a conflict and conflicts have outcomes not solutions.

    “not just for our own, but for those who have done everything they could to come to a safer place, as the United States.”

    They come for the higher standard of living. Higher standards of living are created by high functioning people. Low functioning people can only get that higher standard of living by living in closer proximity to higher functioning people. They themselves do not become higher functioning, but they benefit from the framework and generosity of those who are. However, the higher the proportion of low functioning people, the lower the standard of living. We overgeneralize when we equate their escape from Mexico with the Europeans who came to the US. At the time, Europe was the highest functioning society on the planet, so it is no surprise that the folks who came maintained that. However, when people from low functioning places migrate, they bring that dysfunction with them. That is why these immigrants have high levels of social pathology. The more pathology you import, the more you will have. Those who want to accept abuse and dysfunction in return for the opportunity to exploit them for cheap menial labor that they don’t want to do, can’t hide behind Christian charity and moral superiority. Of course those who make the profits from their cheap labor can afford to insulate themselves from much of this dysfunction. Their less prosperous neighbors will be disproportionally victimized by the violence and degradation these folks bring from their native cultures. It is not loving to ignore the neighbor who is a victim so that they can feel morally superior to those victimized neighbors who complain of the abuse they suffer from the new neighbors.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Let’s do it with love, rather than with numbers, either trumped up, or real, but all the same mean spirited,”

    Ah, yes, those mean old numbers. The numbers just quantify what is going on.

    “when solving the problem can only be done with love in our hearts,”

    The thing is, it is not a problem to be solved. It is a conflict and conflicts have outcomes not solutions.

    “not just for our own, but for those who have done everything they could to come to a safer place, as the United States.”

    They come for the higher standard of living. Higher standards of living are created by high functioning people. Low functioning people can only get that higher standard of living by living in closer proximity to higher functioning people. They themselves do not become higher functioning, but they benefit from the framework and generosity of those who are. However, the higher the proportion of low functioning people, the lower the standard of living. We overgeneralize when we equate their escape from Mexico with the Europeans who came to the US. At the time, Europe was the highest functioning society on the planet, so it is no surprise that the folks who came maintained that. However, when people from low functioning places migrate, they bring that dysfunction with them. That is why these immigrants have high levels of social pathology. The more pathology you import, the more you will have. Those who want to accept abuse and dysfunction in return for the opportunity to exploit them for cheap menial labor that they don’t want to do, can’t hide behind Christian charity and moral superiority. Of course those who make the profits from their cheap labor can afford to insulate themselves from much of this dysfunction. Their less prosperous neighbors will be disproportionally victimized by the violence and degradation these folks bring from their native cultures. It is not loving to ignore the neighbor who is a victim so that they can feel morally superior to those victimized neighbors who complain of the abuse they suffer from the new neighbors.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But I have come to understand we cannot send millions of people back home,”

    Sure we can.

    “it’s not going to happen.”

    Yeah, but that is because we are too cowardly to defend our own children and leave them a country better than we inherited. Rather we abandon them to hostile invaders who hate them. Immigrants who come legally should be welcomed if the residents want them to come in. Violent usurpers should at least be deported if not first imprisoned. It is atrocious when the law abiding citizens are of secondary importance to the people elected to serve their interests and the wage slaves that the elites import to exploit have free reign to plunder the public benefits system.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But I have come to understand we cannot send millions of people back home,”

    Sure we can.

    “it’s not going to happen.”

    Yeah, but that is because we are too cowardly to defend our own children and leave them a country better than we inherited. Rather we abandon them to hostile invaders who hate them. Immigrants who come legally should be welcomed if the residents want them to come in. Violent usurpers should at least be deported if not first imprisoned. It is atrocious when the law abiding citizens are of secondary importance to the people elected to serve their interests and the wage slaves that the elites import to exploit have free reign to plunder the public benefits system.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Your comments are made up of ‘generalizations – second, illegals are not going to leave. The U.S. is not going to deport millions of people. You might as well ‘FUNCTION, with the situation at hand.

    It would be to your benefit and that to those you wish to read your posts, IF you ‘could, separate your thoughts, using paragraphs. It’s not that difficult.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Your comments are made up of ‘generalizations – second, illegals are not going to leave. The U.S. is not going to deport millions of people. You might as well ‘FUNCTION, with the situation at hand.

    It would be to your benefit and that to those you wish to read your posts, IF you ‘could, separate your thoughts, using paragraphs. It’s not that difficult.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “WE are the ones that need to change, we will need to make room for those who are here.”

    We? Or do you mean your grandkids who will be expected to provide first world services for a country of third world people?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “WE are the ones that need to change, we will need to make room for those who are here.”

    We? Or do you mean your grandkids who will be expected to provide first world services for a country of third world people?

  • Grace

    “Yeah, but that is because we are too cowardly to defend our own children and leave them a country better than we inherited.”

    I see – we should run them out of town, confiscate the homes they have purchased. Throw their children out of public schools, take the whole bunch, by the thousands and millions, run them right down to border, with whatever they can carry or load in their trucks and cars. That sounds like a real bully tactic, it’s not “COWARDLY” it’s brutal, MOB’s of those who believe themselves to be ‘superior.

    How are you going to feel when you walk through the doors of your church, with memories of women and children, crying being thrown from their schools and homes, weeping, with their husbands driving what they can carry straight to the border. Oh HOW PROUD YOU CAN FEEL, …. and then you can take the LORD’s Supper, without a tear in your eye, or a repentant heart?

    Very troubling …… thankfully it will never happen.

  • Grace

    “Yeah, but that is because we are too cowardly to defend our own children and leave them a country better than we inherited.”

    I see – we should run them out of town, confiscate the homes they have purchased. Throw their children out of public schools, take the whole bunch, by the thousands and millions, run them right down to border, with whatever they can carry or load in their trucks and cars. That sounds like a real bully tactic, it’s not “COWARDLY” it’s brutal, MOB’s of those who believe themselves to be ‘superior.

    How are you going to feel when you walk through the doors of your church, with memories of women and children, crying being thrown from their schools and homes, weeping, with their husbands driving what they can carry straight to the border. Oh HOW PROUD YOU CAN FEEL, …. and then you can take the LORD’s Supper, without a tear in your eye, or a repentant heart?

    Very troubling …… thankfully it will never happen.

  • Grace

    Romans 12

    16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

    17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

    18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

    19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

    21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

  • Grace

    Romans 12

    16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

    17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

    18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

    19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

    20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

    21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Meh, I think your compassion is misplaced. Rather than having compassion on your own grandkids for what they will endure, you instead feel compassion for those who will abuse your own grandkids and great grandkids. I am not buying it. It is cowardice not compassion. It is kicking the can down the road and pretending we don’t know what is coming. You seem in complete denial about the most likely result of importing violent people who hate you just for being who you are. These people are not grateful. They will not be kind to your posterity. The South Africans let in tons of people as workers and eventually it all fell apart and now they are in a terrible way. We can’t play dumb. The situation in Mexico is terrible. That is what we are importing en masse when we allow illegals to stay here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Meh, I think your compassion is misplaced. Rather than having compassion on your own grandkids for what they will endure, you instead feel compassion for those who will abuse your own grandkids and great grandkids. I am not buying it. It is cowardice not compassion. It is kicking the can down the road and pretending we don’t know what is coming. You seem in complete denial about the most likely result of importing violent people who hate you just for being who you are. These people are not grateful. They will not be kind to your posterity. The South Africans let in tons of people as workers and eventually it all fell apart and now they are in a terrible way. We can’t play dumb. The situation in Mexico is terrible. That is what we are importing en masse when we allow illegals to stay here.

  • kerner

    sg@72-73:

    Frankly yes, the lottery is a tax on the cash economy. The sales tax is a tax on the cash economy. The property tax is a tax on tangible property. And I’m sure you have excise taxes such as alcohol and tobacco taxes as well. Texas wisely has set up its tax system in such a way as to make sure that all of its residents pay into it, which makes it harder to complain about what they take out.

    As you point out, the cost per pupil for Texas public schools was over $11,000.00 in 2010, but it doesn’t look like that was the fault of illegals. It looks like it was mismanagement to me, seeing it should be more like $7,500.00.

    http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19360

    Plus, I haven’t had time to research this thoroughly, but the drop out rate for hispanics generally is much higher in Texas than it is for whites, so the cost isn’t really $12k x 13.

    But most importantly, your analysis of the contribution/cost of illegals as a fifth grade math problem disregards the secondary benefits of their labor. As you point out, those who employ illegals enrich themselves, but that means all of us. For example, if you eat food produced (or wear clothing made from cotton produced) in the United States, you employ illegals. And they enrich you by being more productive than other available workers.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/ala-weighs-using-inmates-as-farm-workers-to-replace-fleeing-hispanics/1

    The reason employers want to employ illegals is not only because they are cheap, but because they are productive. The idea that US employers should be forced to hire unmotivated and risky prison labor when motivated honest workers are available (or want to be available) is shocking. High productivity always helps the economy and reduces inflation and saves Americans lots of money that you never take into account. And I’m sure the cost of prison security in the Alabama farm fields eats up the savings to taxpayers from chasing out the illegals.

    I don’t have any stats to back this up (I’ll have to do that research later) but let’s say, hypothetically that the increased cost of farm labor and the dropoff in farm labor productivity translates into an increase of 70.00 perweek in the food budget of an average family. That’s $3,640.00 per year out of the pocket of every family in Texas. Texas has over 25M people, and figuring an average family size of 3 (its actually 2.81 in texas) so that’s 8.33M households. Times $3,640 comes to a net cost of over 30 billion dollars per year to get rid of the illegals for Texas alone. And that doesn’t take into account the regressive Texas taxes that illegals actually pay.

    Another secondary benefit. Sure illegals paY 2.5% of there domicile value in taxes. But the value is not a fixed number. The value, and therefore the tax revenue derived from, each property is higher with the illegals living there that it would be if the real estate were vacant. Therefore the presence of the illegals increases the property tax revenue. And increases the net worth of Texas real estate owners.

    I could go on, but my 2:15 appointment just showed up. But face it, sg, especially given the Texas tax system that guarantees collection from everybody, including illegals, you Texans are profitting from the presence of illegals.

  • kerner

    sg@72-73:

    Frankly yes, the lottery is a tax on the cash economy. The sales tax is a tax on the cash economy. The property tax is a tax on tangible property. And I’m sure you have excise taxes such as alcohol and tobacco taxes as well. Texas wisely has set up its tax system in such a way as to make sure that all of its residents pay into it, which makes it harder to complain about what they take out.

    As you point out, the cost per pupil for Texas public schools was over $11,000.00 in 2010, but it doesn’t look like that was the fault of illegals. It looks like it was mismanagement to me, seeing it should be more like $7,500.00.

    http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19360

    Plus, I haven’t had time to research this thoroughly, but the drop out rate for hispanics generally is much higher in Texas than it is for whites, so the cost isn’t really $12k x 13.

    But most importantly, your analysis of the contribution/cost of illegals as a fifth grade math problem disregards the secondary benefits of their labor. As you point out, those who employ illegals enrich themselves, but that means all of us. For example, if you eat food produced (or wear clothing made from cotton produced) in the United States, you employ illegals. And they enrich you by being more productive than other available workers.

    http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/ala-weighs-using-inmates-as-farm-workers-to-replace-fleeing-hispanics/1

    The reason employers want to employ illegals is not only because they are cheap, but because they are productive. The idea that US employers should be forced to hire unmotivated and risky prison labor when motivated honest workers are available (or want to be available) is shocking. High productivity always helps the economy and reduces inflation and saves Americans lots of money that you never take into account. And I’m sure the cost of prison security in the Alabama farm fields eats up the savings to taxpayers from chasing out the illegals.

    I don’t have any stats to back this up (I’ll have to do that research later) but let’s say, hypothetically that the increased cost of farm labor and the dropoff in farm labor productivity translates into an increase of 70.00 perweek in the food budget of an average family. That’s $3,640.00 per year out of the pocket of every family in Texas. Texas has over 25M people, and figuring an average family size of 3 (its actually 2.81 in texas) so that’s 8.33M households. Times $3,640 comes to a net cost of over 30 billion dollars per year to get rid of the illegals for Texas alone. And that doesn’t take into account the regressive Texas taxes that illegals actually pay.

    Another secondary benefit. Sure illegals paY 2.5% of there domicile value in taxes. But the value is not a fixed number. The value, and therefore the tax revenue derived from, each property is higher with the illegals living there that it would be if the real estate were vacant. Therefore the presence of the illegals increases the property tax revenue. And increases the net worth of Texas real estate owners.

    I could go on, but my 2:15 appointment just showed up. But face it, sg, especially given the Texas tax system that guarantees collection from everybody, including illegals, you Texans are profitting from the presence of illegals.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But face it, sg, especially given the Texas tax system that guarantees collection from everybody, including illegals, you Texans are profitting from the presence of illegals.”

    I disagree because we have tons of citizens that we have to educate and care for whether they work or not. The citizens that are not working do not evaporate when you hire an illegal replacement. Of course it is a good deal for the employer because they profit while everyone pays the social costs. It seems no one cares for the bottom and the middle working class people. The number one feature of illegals is that they can be abused with impunity. They can’t report. Sure, they are productive, because if they slow down or miss a day, there is no sick pay, no way to complain if fired unjustly etc. Of course American workers don’t want that and they don’t have to, which is why they are less desirable. The motives of the exploiters are in no way pure. They don’t want legal employees. They want wage slaves.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But face it, sg, especially given the Texas tax system that guarantees collection from everybody, including illegals, you Texans are profitting from the presence of illegals.”

    I disagree because we have tons of citizens that we have to educate and care for whether they work or not. The citizens that are not working do not evaporate when you hire an illegal replacement. Of course it is a good deal for the employer because they profit while everyone pays the social costs. It seems no one cares for the bottom and the middle working class people. The number one feature of illegals is that they can be abused with impunity. They can’t report. Sure, they are productive, because if they slow down or miss a day, there is no sick pay, no way to complain if fired unjustly etc. Of course American workers don’t want that and they don’t have to, which is why they are less desirable. The motives of the exploiters are in no way pure. They don’t want legal employees. They want wage slaves.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace, just wanted to say I was pleasantly surprised by your comments here. You seem to have taken a different approach to this issue from when you first started commenting here.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace, just wanted to say I was pleasantly surprised by your comments here. You seem to have taken a different approach to this issue from when you first started commenting here.

  • Grace

    Meh? LOL, a lot of the “Simpsons” -

    Very melodramatic -

    You can cite, bemoan “grandkids” as an excuse, but it’s bogus.

    There was a time when Italians, Polish, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, other Asians as well were looked down upon as INFERIOR. Of course the French, English, Germans and few others considered themselves, not only superior, but much more able to direct the lives of others. The Chinese were brought here to build rail roads, many of the other ethnic groups were mistreated and ridiculed – today it’s a different story. The countries which in the past appeared to rule, NOW, have nothing to crow about, that includes the French, English and Germans, adding to that the Scandinavian countries which are mostly SOCIALIST, with little or no religious interest, or anything to do with the LORD. The tables turned!

    When you start zeroing in on Mexico, you make the mistake of not including El Salvador, Colombia, Guatemala, most all the central American countries. Where I live there are many from all these countries who are here illegally.

    Illegals will do all the work that others, including the young people today believes is beneath them – cleaning houses, or businesses, gardners, farm work, flipping burgers or any other food service workers. Everyone needs to look at what these people do, that our children, and even the adults, out of work WILL NOT DO.

  • Grace

    Meh? LOL, a lot of the “Simpsons” -

    Very melodramatic -

    You can cite, bemoan “grandkids” as an excuse, but it’s bogus.

    There was a time when Italians, Polish, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, other Asians as well were looked down upon as INFERIOR. Of course the French, English, Germans and few others considered themselves, not only superior, but much more able to direct the lives of others. The Chinese were brought here to build rail roads, many of the other ethnic groups were mistreated and ridiculed – today it’s a different story. The countries which in the past appeared to rule, NOW, have nothing to crow about, that includes the French, English and Germans, adding to that the Scandinavian countries which are mostly SOCIALIST, with little or no religious interest, or anything to do with the LORD. The tables turned!

    When you start zeroing in on Mexico, you make the mistake of not including El Salvador, Colombia, Guatemala, most all the central American countries. Where I live there are many from all these countries who are here illegally.

    Illegals will do all the work that others, including the young people today believes is beneath them – cleaning houses, or businesses, gardners, farm work, flipping burgers or any other food service workers. Everyone needs to look at what these people do, that our children, and even the adults, out of work WILL NOT DO.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    I have changed my mind, or an about change. The Scriptures have a lot to say, Romans 12:16.

    I had to reassess why I believed that all the illegals needed to be carted back over the border. What it was like in their countries of origin. The pain and suffering, the medical problems. The extent to which these people had gone, to at last stepped over the border, with nothing but the clothes on their back, to find jobs and send some money back home to help their families.

    Yes I’ve changed tODD. The way I was operating before was not loving, it was selfish.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    I have changed my mind, or an about change. The Scriptures have a lot to say, Romans 12:16.

    I had to reassess why I believed that all the illegals needed to be carted back over the border. What it was like in their countries of origin. The pain and suffering, the medical problems. The extent to which these people had gone, to at last stepped over the border, with nothing but the clothes on their back, to find jobs and send some money back home to help their families.

    Yes I’ve changed tODD. The way I was operating before was not loving, it was selfish.

  • Grace

    I keep remembering a few months ago, observing a woman in ER, perhaps the mother or even the grandmother, of a young child in her arms – crying softly, wrapped in clean blankets. The child was sick, needing medical attention, (I believe she was illegal, she was obviously from below the southern border) this mental picture has never left me. It made question my life, it eventually made me ashamed – all the things I’ve said, all the posts I’ve made about those who are literally LESS FORTUNATE than I, and yet, I argued for their return to the country of origin. How does that line up with Christ’s teachings? How can we as Christians, who live in a free country, be so COLD HEARTED? It was a journey, not a long one, but one that I’m glad to have taken, back to reality, the way I was raised, my parents giving freely to anyone in need.

    When I was a child, we had knocks on our door from hungry people – my mother would have them sit on the front porch, and then she would busy herself in the kitchen, … scrambled eggs, fresh coffee, homemade bread, toasted, homemade jam, bacon….. and then she’d return with a large tray, to the porch, where the hungry was waiting. She never turned anyone away. My father was the same way.

  • Grace

    I keep remembering a few months ago, observing a woman in ER, perhaps the mother or even the grandmother, of a young child in her arms – crying softly, wrapped in clean blankets. The child was sick, needing medical attention, (I believe she was illegal, she was obviously from below the southern border) this mental picture has never left me. It made question my life, it eventually made me ashamed – all the things I’ve said, all the posts I’ve made about those who are literally LESS FORTUNATE than I, and yet, I argued for their return to the country of origin. How does that line up with Christ’s teachings? How can we as Christians, who live in a free country, be so COLD HEARTED? It was a journey, not a long one, but one that I’m glad to have taken, back to reality, the way I was raised, my parents giving freely to anyone in need.

    When I was a child, we had knocks on our door from hungry people – my mother would have them sit on the front porch, and then she would busy herself in the kitchen, … scrambled eggs, fresh coffee, homemade bread, toasted, homemade jam, bacon….. and then she’d return with a large tray, to the porch, where the hungry was waiting. She never turned anyone away. My father was the same way.

  • kerner

    sg:
    You said:

    “The motives of the exploiters are in no way pure. They don’t want legal employees. They want wage slaves.”

    Let’s review for a minute. The jobs we are talking about now are unskilled physical labor. Farm worker. Hotel maid. Landscaper. Stuff like that. These jobs can be done by any uneducated person. Workers who apply for these jobs compete for them by presenting high SAT scores. The qualities necessary to be competitive in these areas are productivity, dilligence, reliability, honesty, etc. The worker who will show up every day, sober, work hard, and not steal from the employer, is the worker who will get and keep those jobs.

    Uneducated immigrants often have a good excuse for being poor and uneducated: the corrupt statist economic systems in their home countries have given them no opportunity to get any kind of education or avance themselves. Americans with no education and no skills rarely have such an excuse unless they are somehow disabled. If an American adult has no education or job skills, it is likely because he/she is not productive, dilligent, reliable or honest. And that is why such Americans cannot compete with immigrants who do possess those qualities. It’s also probably why some of them are in prison on Alabama. I don’t feel so sorry for an American who squandered the enormous opportunities this country offers, and who decided to sell drugs or steal instead, that I would force an American farmer, or meat packer, or hotel operator, to hire such an American over an honest and industrious immigrant. If any American wants to, really wants to, he/she can out compete any illiterate immigrant. The problem is that a lot of Americans don’t want to.

    Incedently, I am an attorney, but one of my daughters is a waitress. But we have this in common: neither of us can get sick pay if we miss a day of work, and neither of us have much of anyone to complain to if we get fired “unjustly”. Barring some kind of proveable illegal discrimination, if the boss decides she doesn’t like my daughter, out she goes with no recourse. I know plenty of American workers, including myself, who have been fired by a boss who was an idiot. It’s the way the system works, and it’s one of the reasons I am self employed.

    But I really have little sympathy for people who whine about their competition working too hard or being too productive.

    Of course it is a good deal for the employer because they profit while everyone pays the social costs.

    Can’t let you get away with that. I just demonstrated that YOU profit too; every time you eat American meat or poultry or fruit or vegitables, or wear clothes made from American cotton, or sleep in a clean affordable American hotel, or do any one of a number of other things you might not be able to afford if those “abused” (which apparently means hard working) immigrants weren’t on the job. Do you really think you can pull tens of billions of dollars out of the Texas economy (which is what would happen if we did as you suggest) without some serious social cost caused thereby? We aren’t cowards for not wanting to do that, it’s just that we aren’t crazy.

  • kerner

    sg:
    You said:

    “The motives of the exploiters are in no way pure. They don’t want legal employees. They want wage slaves.”

    Let’s review for a minute. The jobs we are talking about now are unskilled physical labor. Farm worker. Hotel maid. Landscaper. Stuff like that. These jobs can be done by any uneducated person. Workers who apply for these jobs compete for them by presenting high SAT scores. The qualities necessary to be competitive in these areas are productivity, dilligence, reliability, honesty, etc. The worker who will show up every day, sober, work hard, and not steal from the employer, is the worker who will get and keep those jobs.

    Uneducated immigrants often have a good excuse for being poor and uneducated: the corrupt statist economic systems in their home countries have given them no opportunity to get any kind of education or avance themselves. Americans with no education and no skills rarely have such an excuse unless they are somehow disabled. If an American adult has no education or job skills, it is likely because he/she is not productive, dilligent, reliable or honest. And that is why such Americans cannot compete with immigrants who do possess those qualities. It’s also probably why some of them are in prison on Alabama. I don’t feel so sorry for an American who squandered the enormous opportunities this country offers, and who decided to sell drugs or steal instead, that I would force an American farmer, or meat packer, or hotel operator, to hire such an American over an honest and industrious immigrant. If any American wants to, really wants to, he/she can out compete any illiterate immigrant. The problem is that a lot of Americans don’t want to.

    Incedently, I am an attorney, but one of my daughters is a waitress. But we have this in common: neither of us can get sick pay if we miss a day of work, and neither of us have much of anyone to complain to if we get fired “unjustly”. Barring some kind of proveable illegal discrimination, if the boss decides she doesn’t like my daughter, out she goes with no recourse. I know plenty of American workers, including myself, who have been fired by a boss who was an idiot. It’s the way the system works, and it’s one of the reasons I am self employed.

    But I really have little sympathy for people who whine about their competition working too hard or being too productive.

    Of course it is a good deal for the employer because they profit while everyone pays the social costs.

    Can’t let you get away with that. I just demonstrated that YOU profit too; every time you eat American meat or poultry or fruit or vegitables, or wear clothes made from American cotton, or sleep in a clean affordable American hotel, or do any one of a number of other things you might not be able to afford if those “abused” (which apparently means hard working) immigrants weren’t on the job. Do you really think you can pull tens of billions of dollars out of the Texas economy (which is what would happen if we did as you suggest) without some serious social cost caused thereby? We aren’t cowards for not wanting to do that, it’s just that we aren’t crazy.

  • kerner

    oops. I meant that workers that apply for unskilled jobs DON’T compete for them by presenting high SAT scores.

    oops. I mean

  • kerner

    oops. I meant that workers that apply for unskilled jobs DON’T compete for them by presenting high SAT scores.

    oops. I mean

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 91

    Great post!

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 91

    Great post!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The way I was operating before was not loving, it was selfish.”

    Your approach is still selfish, you think there is something in it for you and the downside will be borne by others. Kerner likewise thinks that we are getting a good deal, therefore it is fine to exploit them while they are illegal, then dump the problems on society.

    Why are illegals your “neighbors” but your fellow citizens and their posterity are not?

    Let’s review for a minute. The jobs we are talking about now are unskilled physical labor. Farm worker. Hotel maid. Landscaper. Stuff like that. These jobs can be done by any uneducated person. Workers who apply for these jobs compete for them by presenting high SAT scores. The qualities necessary to be competitive in these areas are productivity, dilligence, reliability, honesty, etc. The worker who will show up every day, sober, work hard, and not steal from the employer, is the worker who will get and keep those jobs.

    I disagree, the fact that illegals cost much less and have little legal recourse means they can be abused with impunity. Yes, they may be both better and cheaper, but what about their legal kids? These are the ones with the low SAT scores who have seen what their parents have endured and come to resent us all. As you say many will drop out of school and won’t be all that productive. We can’t have it both ways, claiming they are cheaper to educate because they have a high drop out rate and then go on to claim they cheerfully will endure as citizens what their parents did as illegals or alternatively they will go on to college and be productive in a skilled occupation. That is just wishful thinking. We can’t honestly believe that kids are going to go through our public school system and then come out cheerfully hard working wage slaves like their illegal parents.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The way I was operating before was not loving, it was selfish.”

    Your approach is still selfish, you think there is something in it for you and the downside will be borne by others. Kerner likewise thinks that we are getting a good deal, therefore it is fine to exploit them while they are illegal, then dump the problems on society.

    Why are illegals your “neighbors” but your fellow citizens and their posterity are not?

    Let’s review for a minute. The jobs we are talking about now are unskilled physical labor. Farm worker. Hotel maid. Landscaper. Stuff like that. These jobs can be done by any uneducated person. Workers who apply for these jobs compete for them by presenting high SAT scores. The qualities necessary to be competitive in these areas are productivity, dilligence, reliability, honesty, etc. The worker who will show up every day, sober, work hard, and not steal from the employer, is the worker who will get and keep those jobs.

    I disagree, the fact that illegals cost much less and have little legal recourse means they can be abused with impunity. Yes, they may be both better and cheaper, but what about their legal kids? These are the ones with the low SAT scores who have seen what their parents have endured and come to resent us all. As you say many will drop out of school and won’t be all that productive. We can’t have it both ways, claiming they are cheaper to educate because they have a high drop out rate and then go on to claim they cheerfully will endure as citizens what their parents did as illegals or alternatively they will go on to college and be productive in a skilled occupation. That is just wishful thinking. We can’t honestly believe that kids are going to go through our public school system and then come out cheerfully hard working wage slaves like their illegal parents.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But I really have little sympathy for people who whine about their competition working too hard or being too productive.”

    Sounds swell, but those are citizens and you have to pay to care for them if their employer doesn’t. It seems to make more sense to have a higher labor participation rate given that we have a de facto welfare state, rather than fellow citizens paying the upkeep on all the folks that employers reject in favor of illegals. Employing an illegal is not a great bargain for taxpayers, rather it is the productivity of one worker for the price of two (plus kids) on the public benefits system.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But I really have little sympathy for people who whine about their competition working too hard or being too productive.”

    Sounds swell, but those are citizens and you have to pay to care for them if their employer doesn’t. It seems to make more sense to have a higher labor participation rate given that we have a de facto welfare state, rather than fellow citizens paying the upkeep on all the folks that employers reject in favor of illegals. Employing an illegal is not a great bargain for taxpayers, rather it is the productivity of one worker for the price of two (plus kids) on the public benefits system.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Okay, 5th grade word problem

    If an illegal has one kid who is in k-12, let’s say he drops out by 8th grade, so your number of $11k per year for 8 years. That is $88K.

    If half were paid for by sales tax at 8%, he would have to spend $550K on taxable non essentials to pay for one kid’s education who drops out by 8th grade. I doubt that will happen.

    Well, how about his property tax paid through his rent on a domicile valued at $50k. If he lived in Texas for 30 years, that would be $1250 a year for a total of $37.5K

    On average hispanics have 3 kids. You can see that his taxes don’t even cover one kid to go part way through school let alone three to actually finish and go to college.

    This assumes he and his kids use no other social benefits whatever. The ed cost alone will bankrupt the states and local governments.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Okay, 5th grade word problem

    If an illegal has one kid who is in k-12, let’s say he drops out by 8th grade, so your number of $11k per year for 8 years. That is $88K.

    If half were paid for by sales tax at 8%, he would have to spend $550K on taxable non essentials to pay for one kid’s education who drops out by 8th grade. I doubt that will happen.

    Well, how about his property tax paid through his rent on a domicile valued at $50k. If he lived in Texas for 30 years, that would be $1250 a year for a total of $37.5K

    On average hispanics have 3 kids. You can see that his taxes don’t even cover one kid to go part way through school let alone three to actually finish and go to college.

    This assumes he and his kids use no other social benefits whatever. The ed cost alone will bankrupt the states and local governments.

  • Grace

    sg @94

    Your approach is still selfish, you think there is something in it for you and the downside will be borne by others. Kerner likewise thinks that we are getting a good deal, therefore it is fine to exploit them while they are illegal, then dump the problems on society.

    There is nothing in it for me, except to see others who are LESS FORTUNATE given a chance. You’re all wrapped up in who’s getting what, who’s motives are not what they say they are – it reeks of a guilty conscience. Exploiting illegals would equate into marching them down the road, across the border, children in tow, with whatever belongings they could stuff in their cars and trucks – that my dear is EXPLOITATION, HATRED, SELFISH, and UNLOVING – My motives are love from my heart, no matter how you want to discredit my intentions.

    “I disagree, the fact that illegals cost much less and have little legal recourse means they can be abused with impunity. Yes, they may be both better and cheaper, but what about their legal kids? These are the ones with the low SAT scores who have seen what their parents have endured and come to resent us all.”

    You’re hitting the air with your make believe broom with these comments, .. I don’t know how abused you think all illegals are – many of them, and I do mean many, are buying homes, paying their mortgages every month, NO they aren’t fancy homes, but they buy what they can AFFORD, unlike many others who were born here, SAT scores listed, and should know better (SAT scores fit in there, think about it) These young people do not resent “us all” – anymore than the rest of society resents anyone who has more than they do. I have lived up and down the coast of California, I can assure you that there are people who come from south of the border who don’t give one ‘rip what you have, they don’t care. ( Every ethnic group have people who are full of envy, that includes ours.) They are too busy taking care of their families, working caring for their elderly parents (those born here, rarely do that) or grandparents.. to worry about what you might have.

    You’ve got SAT scores implanted in your mind as though that’s the measure of one’s worth, IT ISN’T. Have you ever counted how many times you mention SAT scores? – to you it’s a medal of honor, to those who have them, use what they have and help others don’t give it much though, unless they are trying to help their kids get a good score –

    “That is just wishful thinking. We can’t honestly believe that kids are going to go through our public school system and then come out cheerfully hard working wage slaves like their illegal parents.

    So now the slurs begin, “wage slaves” just because illegals work hard, save their money, help support those back home – but W A I T ….. their SAT scores don’t measure up to your expectations! I just bet, that if their SAT scores out scored your children, you would have fits, …. then your story could be, “if all those illegals were driven from our cities, the teachers would have more time to spend with my kids, and those in my city, and THEN their SAT scores would rise like a hot balloon” – but if you home school, then you wouldn’t have much to say, IF their scores were higher than your children, LOL

  • Grace

    sg @94

    Your approach is still selfish, you think there is something in it for you and the downside will be borne by others. Kerner likewise thinks that we are getting a good deal, therefore it is fine to exploit them while they are illegal, then dump the problems on society.

    There is nothing in it for me, except to see others who are LESS FORTUNATE given a chance. You’re all wrapped up in who’s getting what, who’s motives are not what they say they are – it reeks of a guilty conscience. Exploiting illegals would equate into marching them down the road, across the border, children in tow, with whatever belongings they could stuff in their cars and trucks – that my dear is EXPLOITATION, HATRED, SELFISH, and UNLOVING – My motives are love from my heart, no matter how you want to discredit my intentions.

    “I disagree, the fact that illegals cost much less and have little legal recourse means they can be abused with impunity. Yes, they may be both better and cheaper, but what about their legal kids? These are the ones with the low SAT scores who have seen what their parents have endured and come to resent us all.”

    You’re hitting the air with your make believe broom with these comments, .. I don’t know how abused you think all illegals are – many of them, and I do mean many, are buying homes, paying their mortgages every month, NO they aren’t fancy homes, but they buy what they can AFFORD, unlike many others who were born here, SAT scores listed, and should know better (SAT scores fit in there, think about it) These young people do not resent “us all” – anymore than the rest of society resents anyone who has more than they do. I have lived up and down the coast of California, I can assure you that there are people who come from south of the border who don’t give one ‘rip what you have, they don’t care. ( Every ethnic group have people who are full of envy, that includes ours.) They are too busy taking care of their families, working caring for their elderly parents (those born here, rarely do that) or grandparents.. to worry about what you might have.

    You’ve got SAT scores implanted in your mind as though that’s the measure of one’s worth, IT ISN’T. Have you ever counted how many times you mention SAT scores? – to you it’s a medal of honor, to those who have them, use what they have and help others don’t give it much though, unless they are trying to help their kids get a good score –

    “That is just wishful thinking. We can’t honestly believe that kids are going to go through our public school system and then come out cheerfully hard working wage slaves like their illegal parents.

    So now the slurs begin, “wage slaves” just because illegals work hard, save their money, help support those back home – but W A I T ….. their SAT scores don’t measure up to your expectations! I just bet, that if their SAT scores out scored your children, you would have fits, …. then your story could be, “if all those illegals were driven from our cities, the teachers would have more time to spend with my kids, and those in my city, and THEN their SAT scores would rise like a hot balloon” – but if you home school, then you wouldn’t have much to say, IF their scores were higher than your children, LOL

  • Grace

    Sg,

    “Word problem” ?

    Find a hobby! :lol:

  • Grace

    Sg,

    “Word problem” ?

    Find a hobby! :lol:

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@96), um, what in your analysis has anything to do with the fact that the person is “an illegal”? Doesn’t it hold just as well for citizens and legal immigrants? Allow me to spell it out:

    If a legal has one kid who is in k-12, let’s say he graduates from high school, so your number of $11k per year for 13 years (don’t forget kindergarten). That is $143K.

    If half were paid for by sales tax at 8%, he would have to spend $894K on taxable non essentials to pay for one kid’s education. I doubt that will happen.

    Well, how about his property tax paid through his rent on a domicile valued at $50k. If he lived in Texas for 30 years, that would be $1250 a year for a total of $37.5K.

    On average Texans have 2 kids. You can see that his taxes don’t even cover one kid to go part way through school let alone two to actually finish and go to college.

    Point being: the problem you’ve spelled out appears to be an issue of overly expensive education or an insufficient tax system, not one that has anything, as such, to do with whether someone is “an illegal” or not.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@96), um, what in your analysis has anything to do with the fact that the person is “an illegal”? Doesn’t it hold just as well for citizens and legal immigrants? Allow me to spell it out:

    If a legal has one kid who is in k-12, let’s say he graduates from high school, so your number of $11k per year for 13 years (don’t forget kindergarten). That is $143K.

    If half were paid for by sales tax at 8%, he would have to spend $894K on taxable non essentials to pay for one kid’s education. I doubt that will happen.

    Well, how about his property tax paid through his rent on a domicile valued at $50k. If he lived in Texas for 30 years, that would be $1250 a year for a total of $37.5K.

    On average Texans have 2 kids. You can see that his taxes don’t even cover one kid to go part way through school let alone two to actually finish and go to college.

    Point being: the problem you’ve spelled out appears to be an issue of overly expensive education or an insufficient tax system, not one that has anything, as such, to do with whether someone is “an illegal” or not.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Your level of disrespect for humbler vocations never ceases to amaze me. Doing a job really well seems to mean nothing to you if that job requires dedication, but not high SAT scores. Anybody stupid enough to want to do a good job as a $9.00/hr. hotel maid or a $11.00/hr. slaughterhouse worker must be a “low functioning type”, unworthy of your respect, or must be the helpless victim of capitalist elitists. Which reminds me, why is it such a crime to you to pay the hotel maid $9.00/hr.? The hotel’s profit margin might be very thin and its owner may not be rich. Maybe keeping labor costs low is how the hotel stays in business and how middle class Americans can afford to go on vacation. You act as though anyone who hires a good worker at a wage that keeps him in business is some sort of robber baron.

    And maybe $9 or $11 per hour is not slavery. Maybe these people can live on that (not like consumption happy Americans, perhaps, but not starving either). And maybe a lot of them will encourage their legal kids to go into more skilled occupations that might be blue collar, but at which they can make better money. Frankly, a lot of them do just that. Or their kids may go into the military and prosper that way. This country has a shortage of skilled blue collar workers, even in today’s economy, because people like you are so obsessed with SAT scores and higher education that too many of us won’t go into the skilled trades.

    Plus, some immigrants advance in their fields. Yesterday’s bus person becomes today’s server, and maybe tomorrow’s restaurant manager, if not kept out of the competition by the protectionist legal system.

    Which further reminds me, where do you get the idea that a market economy is a finite pie such that anyone who has a job has “taken away” that job from someone else? The fact is that highly productive people, even those in unskilled and comparitively low paid vocations, grow the economy. As the economy expands more jobs are created and there is more prosperity for everyone.

    I’ll grant you that a public school education is pretty useless when it comes to teaching people of any background how to use the free market to their advantage. Our oh so expensive public school system will devote all kinds of effort into trying to convince lower wage people that they are exploited victims who should stick it to the man and overthrow the system, but they won’t spend a minute to teach such people how to get ahead in the free market. But that’s because most public school teachers are government workers who wouldn’t know how to compete in the free market if their lives depended on it. I’m not surprized that they can’t understand why immigrants would appreciate the opportunity to do entry level jobs (which are better gigs than they could ever get back home) in America, and that they certainly can’t understand why immigrants’ kids should appreciate the great opportunities this country offers to anyone who applies himself.

    What I don’t understand is why YOU have bought into that kind of statist nonsense.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Your level of disrespect for humbler vocations never ceases to amaze me. Doing a job really well seems to mean nothing to you if that job requires dedication, but not high SAT scores. Anybody stupid enough to want to do a good job as a $9.00/hr. hotel maid or a $11.00/hr. slaughterhouse worker must be a “low functioning type”, unworthy of your respect, or must be the helpless victim of capitalist elitists. Which reminds me, why is it such a crime to you to pay the hotel maid $9.00/hr.? The hotel’s profit margin might be very thin and its owner may not be rich. Maybe keeping labor costs low is how the hotel stays in business and how middle class Americans can afford to go on vacation. You act as though anyone who hires a good worker at a wage that keeps him in business is some sort of robber baron.

    And maybe $9 or $11 per hour is not slavery. Maybe these people can live on that (not like consumption happy Americans, perhaps, but not starving either). And maybe a lot of them will encourage their legal kids to go into more skilled occupations that might be blue collar, but at which they can make better money. Frankly, a lot of them do just that. Or their kids may go into the military and prosper that way. This country has a shortage of skilled blue collar workers, even in today’s economy, because people like you are so obsessed with SAT scores and higher education that too many of us won’t go into the skilled trades.

    Plus, some immigrants advance in their fields. Yesterday’s bus person becomes today’s server, and maybe tomorrow’s restaurant manager, if not kept out of the competition by the protectionist legal system.

    Which further reminds me, where do you get the idea that a market economy is a finite pie such that anyone who has a job has “taken away” that job from someone else? The fact is that highly productive people, even those in unskilled and comparitively low paid vocations, grow the economy. As the economy expands more jobs are created and there is more prosperity for everyone.

    I’ll grant you that a public school education is pretty useless when it comes to teaching people of any background how to use the free market to their advantage. Our oh so expensive public school system will devote all kinds of effort into trying to convince lower wage people that they are exploited victims who should stick it to the man and overthrow the system, but they won’t spend a minute to teach such people how to get ahead in the free market. But that’s because most public school teachers are government workers who wouldn’t know how to compete in the free market if their lives depended on it. I’m not surprized that they can’t understand why immigrants would appreciate the opportunity to do entry level jobs (which are better gigs than they could ever get back home) in America, and that they certainly can’t understand why immigrants’ kids should appreciate the great opportunities this country offers to anyone who applies himself.

    What I don’t understand is why YOU have bought into that kind of statist nonsense.

  • kerner

    sg @ 96:

    Well, maybe a 5th grader would have remembered to include the tens of billions of dollars that texans save in food costs every year in her equation.

    Or maybe the 5th grader would have remembered that, if the cost of a public school education if the rate of inflation were applied to the much lower 2000 cost per pupil, the proper cost of a public school education would be only $7,500.00 per pupil, not $12,000.00. So maybe the 5th grader would have required the overpaid government to cut its costs and used $7,500.00 in the equation.

    Or maybe the 5th grader would have remembered that if the “exploitive ” employers of all these illegals are profiting from them, the additional taxes that the “exploitive” profiteers pay should be added into the equation.

    Or maybe a 5th grader would know that it is pretty ludicrous to try to reduce macroeconomics to the terms of a 5th grade word problem.

  • kerner

    sg @ 96:

    Well, maybe a 5th grader would have remembered to include the tens of billions of dollars that texans save in food costs every year in her equation.

    Or maybe the 5th grader would have remembered that, if the cost of a public school education if the rate of inflation were applied to the much lower 2000 cost per pupil, the proper cost of a public school education would be only $7,500.00 per pupil, not $12,000.00. So maybe the 5th grader would have required the overpaid government to cut its costs and used $7,500.00 in the equation.

    Or maybe the 5th grader would have remembered that if the “exploitive ” employers of all these illegals are profiting from them, the additional taxes that the “exploitive” profiteers pay should be added into the equation.

    Or maybe a 5th grader would know that it is pretty ludicrous to try to reduce macroeconomics to the terms of a 5th grade word problem.

  • kerner

    One last thing. As tODD points out, few people pay enough in state and property taxes to cover the cost of their children’s public school education. So why haven’t the public schools gone bankrupt long before now?

    You have forgotten to factor in one of the biggest sources of proberty tax revenue that uses almost no public services (certainly no public school services): commercial property.

    Yes, every business that owns a business property pays a boatload in property taxes to fund the school system that the business itself never uses. But its employees (legal or otherwise) do. Every business property is worth way more as a developed, occupied property than it would if it were an unoccupied building or vacant land. The point being, the fact that workers are there, making the place profitable (which includes the illegals who clean up after hours or bus the dishes or do some of the dirty production work or do the farm work), is what makes the land so valuable, which in turn is what makes the property taxes so high, which in turn is what pays for the public school system.

    Therefore, the eeeeevil exploitive employers, by using their sometimes illegal labor to make their business properties valuable are the very entities who are paying the property tax shortfall that funds the schools that educate their employees’ children…and your children, if you go the public school route.

    You might have a better argument with the health care resources that illegals use that their employers don’t cover (although reforming our health care system would go a long way toward solving that problem too), but your argument about the cost of public education just doesn’t wash.

  • kerner

    One last thing. As tODD points out, few people pay enough in state and property taxes to cover the cost of their children’s public school education. So why haven’t the public schools gone bankrupt long before now?

    You have forgotten to factor in one of the biggest sources of proberty tax revenue that uses almost no public services (certainly no public school services): commercial property.

    Yes, every business that owns a business property pays a boatload in property taxes to fund the school system that the business itself never uses. But its employees (legal or otherwise) do. Every business property is worth way more as a developed, occupied property than it would if it were an unoccupied building or vacant land. The point being, the fact that workers are there, making the place profitable (which includes the illegals who clean up after hours or bus the dishes or do some of the dirty production work or do the farm work), is what makes the land so valuable, which in turn is what makes the property taxes so high, which in turn is what pays for the public school system.

    Therefore, the eeeeevil exploitive employers, by using their sometimes illegal labor to make their business properties valuable are the very entities who are paying the property tax shortfall that funds the schools that educate their employees’ children…and your children, if you go the public school route.

    You might have a better argument with the health care resources that illegals use that their employers don’t cover (although reforming our health care system would go a long way toward solving that problem too), but your argument about the cost of public education just doesn’t wash.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So, kerner, I take it you agree, it is a good deal for those at the top who are profiteering but not so much for the rest of us. It is fine if you can insulate yourself by pocketing the profits and benefits. It is not so great if you are trapped in close proximity and not rich enough to send your kids to public or private schools.

    Besides, if it is such a great deal why are all, and I mean all, of the predictions that Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security are unsustainable? Why are there cries that we can’t cut the deficit/debt because we have to keep up these services? If it were such a great deal we would be collecting plenty given the substantial tax rates people pay. And those who pay the most use the least in services.

    No economist is actually predicting based on the real life performance of the real students in the desks that they will be productive enough for us to get out of this trap.

    I would offer that if these students were provided training for skilled trades, they would have a better shot at good prospects for a good life, but right now, with our current education curriculum, not so much.

    the proper cost of a public school education would be only $7,500.00 per pupil, not $12,000.00. So maybe the 5th grader would have required the overpaid government to cut its costs and used $7,500.00 in the equation.

    Does that seem even remotely possible to you? Our local parish school barely makes it on $7,500 per pupil and we have no special ed kids who need tons of extra services. I am talking about deaf kids, blind kids, autistic, severely and profoundly retarded etc., that require extra personnel and qualify for services from infancy till age 21. Even if $12,000 is a little on the high side, it is not a lot on the high side.

    Also, we don’t save tens of billions on food. More likely we are lured by cheaper fast food which probably is no blessing.

    If you were arguing that illiterate Koreans sneaking in are a good deal, I would agree, but in this case, we have enough actual experience to know the results. So, does Mexico, probably why they are so glad to see them go and don’t let any more like them come in.

    I agree that socially it is easier to take your position because it gets you more approval. So, there is little incentive to look at it critically. My kids are my incentive.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So, kerner, I take it you agree, it is a good deal for those at the top who are profiteering but not so much for the rest of us. It is fine if you can insulate yourself by pocketing the profits and benefits. It is not so great if you are trapped in close proximity and not rich enough to send your kids to public or private schools.

    Besides, if it is such a great deal why are all, and I mean all, of the predictions that Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security are unsustainable? Why are there cries that we can’t cut the deficit/debt because we have to keep up these services? If it were such a great deal we would be collecting plenty given the substantial tax rates people pay. And those who pay the most use the least in services.

    No economist is actually predicting based on the real life performance of the real students in the desks that they will be productive enough for us to get out of this trap.

    I would offer that if these students were provided training for skilled trades, they would have a better shot at good prospects for a good life, but right now, with our current education curriculum, not so much.

    the proper cost of a public school education would be only $7,500.00 per pupil, not $12,000.00. So maybe the 5th grader would have required the overpaid government to cut its costs and used $7,500.00 in the equation.

    Does that seem even remotely possible to you? Our local parish school barely makes it on $7,500 per pupil and we have no special ed kids who need tons of extra services. I am talking about deaf kids, blind kids, autistic, severely and profoundly retarded etc., that require extra personnel and qualify for services from infancy till age 21. Even if $12,000 is a little on the high side, it is not a lot on the high side.

    Also, we don’t save tens of billions on food. More likely we are lured by cheaper fast food which probably is no blessing.

    If you were arguing that illiterate Koreans sneaking in are a good deal, I would agree, but in this case, we have enough actual experience to know the results. So, does Mexico, probably why they are so glad to see them go and don’t let any more like them come in.

    I agree that socially it is easier to take your position because it gets you more approval. So, there is little incentive to look at it critically. My kids are my incentive.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Point being: the problem you’ve spelled out appears to be an issue of overly expensive education or an insufficient tax system, not one that has anything, as such, to do with whether someone is “an illegal” or not.

    Good point, and one that underscores the fact that we don’t need to import tons of low earning people when we already have tons of unemployed citizens who also need services.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Point being: the problem you’ve spelled out appears to be an issue of overly expensive education or an insufficient tax system, not one that has anything, as such, to do with whether someone is “an illegal” or not.

    Good point, and one that underscores the fact that we don’t need to import tons of low earning people when we already have tons of unemployed citizens who also need services.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “One last thing. As tODD points out, few people pay enough in state and property taxes to cover the cost of their children’s public school education. So why haven’t the public schools gone bankrupt long before now?”

    Private school and home school parents and childless folks, who on average pay more in taxes than they take out and most are fine with that, so long as it is not abused. Business and commercial taxes are also a good point and illegals may be more likely to live nearer to those and therefore contribute to the profitability and therefore the collectable taxes generated in those facilities.

    My point is not that we should not take in immigrants. We need just don’t need illegals. They depress wages and working conditions and are themselves abused. That is a moral problem right there and it is not one that industry wants to fix. However it is a problem for the rest of us, and even if we were exploiting illegals such that we came out ahead on the deal, that would in itself be immoral. The current situation is unhealthy. It is based on corruption and greed. It is corrupt from top to bottom, hmm, like Mexico. We should not be patting ourselves on the back for just going along with this burlesque of human resource management.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “One last thing. As tODD points out, few people pay enough in state and property taxes to cover the cost of their children’s public school education. So why haven’t the public schools gone bankrupt long before now?”

    Private school and home school parents and childless folks, who on average pay more in taxes than they take out and most are fine with that, so long as it is not abused. Business and commercial taxes are also a good point and illegals may be more likely to live nearer to those and therefore contribute to the profitability and therefore the collectable taxes generated in those facilities.

    My point is not that we should not take in immigrants. We need just don’t need illegals. They depress wages and working conditions and are themselves abused. That is a moral problem right there and it is not one that industry wants to fix. However it is a problem for the rest of us, and even if we were exploiting illegals such that we came out ahead on the deal, that would in itself be immoral. The current situation is unhealthy. It is based on corruption and greed. It is corrupt from top to bottom, hmm, like Mexico. We should not be patting ourselves on the back for just going along with this burlesque of human resource management.

  • Grace

    “Good point, and one that underscores the fact that we don’t need to import tons of low earning people when we already have tons of unemployed citizens who also need services.

    Correction sg: —— Those who are illegal were never imported, they came here on their own. We have many unemployed citizens at the present time, because they will not take the jobs offered. In most cases, they feel above it all to accept positions that don’t represent their education. The other reason, which too many people have either overlooked, or would rather not talk about is; those who are unemployed are still on unemployment benefits, … taking a job that pays just a little more than they are collecting is not worth it to them – often times they will come right out and admit it.

  • Grace

    “Good point, and one that underscores the fact that we don’t need to import tons of low earning people when we already have tons of unemployed citizens who also need services.

    Correction sg: —— Those who are illegal were never imported, they came here on their own. We have many unemployed citizens at the present time, because they will not take the jobs offered. In most cases, they feel above it all to accept positions that don’t represent their education. The other reason, which too many people have either overlooked, or would rather not talk about is; those who are unemployed are still on unemployment benefits, … taking a job that pays just a little more than they are collecting is not worth it to them – often times they will come right out and admit it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your level of disrespect for humbler vocations never ceases to amaze me. Doing a job really well seems to mean nothing to you if that job requires dedication, but not high SAT scores.”

    Hmm. Not sure where you got that idea. I only said that very few of the kids of illegals were going to take advantage of the resident tuition rates because they had low SAT scores. That is just a fact and the reason we needn’t worry that they are somehow making out like bandits on that deal. They aren’t.

    As for doing a good job for low wages, that is fine and respectable but why is it so much worse to just charge the patron the rate required to pay the citizen maid the rate she could get if the labor market weren’t flooded with foreigners? I have actually worked as a hotel maid and it doesn’t take hours to clean a hotel room. So charging a dollar or two more per room wouldn’t run the hotel out of business. The fact is the presence of illegals doesn’t change the price that the market will bear, it just raises profits for the hotel.

    Adjusted for inflation, wages for the bottom 80% of US workers are flat or have fallen. The presence of illegals depresses wages for our citizen poor and increases the tax burden without lowering costs for us. All of the benefits wind up at the top. Government officials ignore the conflict because they profit from it as long as their friends profit from it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your level of disrespect for humbler vocations never ceases to amaze me. Doing a job really well seems to mean nothing to you if that job requires dedication, but not high SAT scores.”

    Hmm. Not sure where you got that idea. I only said that very few of the kids of illegals were going to take advantage of the resident tuition rates because they had low SAT scores. That is just a fact and the reason we needn’t worry that they are somehow making out like bandits on that deal. They aren’t.

    As for doing a good job for low wages, that is fine and respectable but why is it so much worse to just charge the patron the rate required to pay the citizen maid the rate she could get if the labor market weren’t flooded with foreigners? I have actually worked as a hotel maid and it doesn’t take hours to clean a hotel room. So charging a dollar or two more per room wouldn’t run the hotel out of business. The fact is the presence of illegals doesn’t change the price that the market will bear, it just raises profits for the hotel.

    Adjusted for inflation, wages for the bottom 80% of US workers are flat or have fallen. The presence of illegals depresses wages for our citizen poor and increases the tax burden without lowering costs for us. All of the benefits wind up at the top. Government officials ignore the conflict because they profit from it as long as their friends profit from it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We have many unemployed citizens at the present time, because they will not take the jobs offered.”

    This is partly true and also part of our debased culture.

    But it is not wholly true. It is not just a case of poor Americans suck and won’t work. Every country has poor people and they work because they have to. We have had very high rates of labor participation in the past.

    Anyway, if it is in fact the case that citizens are too picky, what makes you think that the citizen kids of illegals will somehow be any different after growing up here in this culture?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “We have many unemployed citizens at the present time, because they will not take the jobs offered.”

    This is partly true and also part of our debased culture.

    But it is not wholly true. It is not just a case of poor Americans suck and won’t work. Every country has poor people and they work because they have to. We have had very high rates of labor participation in the past.

    Anyway, if it is in fact the case that citizens are too picky, what makes you think that the citizen kids of illegals will somehow be any different after growing up here in this culture?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Plus, some immigrants advance in their fields. Yesterday’s bus person becomes today’s server, and maybe tomorrow’s restaurant manager, if not kept out of the competition by the protectionist legal system.”

    Okay, but why do you think that your fellow citizen should not get that job? Why aren’t your fellow citizen your “neighbor” but an illegal is?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Plus, some immigrants advance in their fields. Yesterday’s bus person becomes today’s server, and maybe tomorrow’s restaurant manager, if not kept out of the competition by the protectionist legal system.”

    Okay, but why do you think that your fellow citizen should not get that job? Why aren’t your fellow citizen your “neighbor” but an illegal is?

  • Grace

    sg @ 108

    YOU WROTE: ” it is not wholly true. It is not just a case of poor Americans suck and won’t work. Every country has poor people and they work because they have to. We have had very high rates of labor participation in the past.”

    You need to read carefully – from my post @ 106
    I wrote: “We have many unemployed citizens at the present time, because they will not take the jobs offered. In most cases, they feel above it all to accept positions that don’t represent their education.”

    These are educated people who will not lower themselves to take a job that doesn’t measure up to the one they previously held.

    YOU WROTE: “Anyway, if it is in fact the case that citizens are too picky, what makes you think that the citizen kids of illegals will somehow be any different after growing up here in this culture?”

    They like many other people who have immigrated here, legal or illegal, have learned to VALUE a job, (they learned the work ethic from their parents) even if it doesn’t measure up to their educational background, OR they don’t have an education, which means they have jobs which require little or no training. I know exactly what I’m talking about, …. I hired many people in my career, those highly educated in science and medicine, and those who had very little education at all.

  • Grace

    sg @ 108

    YOU WROTE: ” it is not wholly true. It is not just a case of poor Americans suck and won’t work. Every country has poor people and they work because they have to. We have had very high rates of labor participation in the past.”

    You need to read carefully – from my post @ 106
    I wrote: “We have many unemployed citizens at the present time, because they will not take the jobs offered. In most cases, they feel above it all to accept positions that don’t represent their education.”

    These are educated people who will not lower themselves to take a job that doesn’t measure up to the one they previously held.

    YOU WROTE: “Anyway, if it is in fact the case that citizens are too picky, what makes you think that the citizen kids of illegals will somehow be any different after growing up here in this culture?”

    They like many other people who have immigrated here, legal or illegal, have learned to VALUE a job, (they learned the work ethic from their parents) even if it doesn’t measure up to their educational background, OR they don’t have an education, which means they have jobs which require little or no training. I know exactly what I’m talking about, …. I hired many people in my career, those highly educated in science and medicine, and those who had very little education at all.

  • Grace

    sg @ 109

    YOU WROTE: “Okay, but why do you think that your fellow citizen should not get that job? Why aren’t your fellow citizen your “neighbor” but an illegal is?”

    To OFTEN, they don’t want to work up to the position they desire, they want the managerial job before they have learned to wait tables, and learn the business.

    sg, did you have a professional career that lasted over a period of time ? 10 plus years? I ask this question because it appears you have no clue as to how a corporation works, or a small business. These are positions that require a great deal of experience, and the ability to interact with all sorts of people, at all levels which of course would include education, and a minimum of education.

  • Grace

    sg @ 109

    YOU WROTE: “Okay, but why do you think that your fellow citizen should not get that job? Why aren’t your fellow citizen your “neighbor” but an illegal is?”

    To OFTEN, they don’t want to work up to the position they desire, they want the managerial job before they have learned to wait tables, and learn the business.

    sg, did you have a professional career that lasted over a period of time ? 10 plus years? I ask this question because it appears you have no clue as to how a corporation works, or a small business. These are positions that require a great deal of experience, and the ability to interact with all sorts of people, at all levels which of course would include education, and a minimum of education.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “These are educated people who will not lower themselves to take a job that doesn’t measure up to the one they previously held.”

    I am skeptical. Unemployment for the college educated is 4%.

    Black unemployment is 25% and only 5% of blacks have college degrees. So, it can’t be education that is the problem.

    Maybe employers prefer illegals that they can abuse over black or white or brown citizens that they can’t. No, employers are too pure for that. sarcasm.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “These are educated people who will not lower themselves to take a job that doesn’t measure up to the one they previously held.”

    I am skeptical. Unemployment for the college educated is 4%.

    Black unemployment is 25% and only 5% of blacks have college degrees. So, it can’t be education that is the problem.

    Maybe employers prefer illegals that they can abuse over black or white or brown citizens that they can’t. No, employers are too pure for that. sarcasm.

  • Grace

    sg at 107

    Kerner wrote: “Your level of disrespect for humbler vocations never ceases to amaze me. Doing a job really well seems to mean nothing to you if that job requires dedication, but not high SAT scores.”

    sg WROTE: “Hmm. Not sure where you got that idea. I only said that very few of the kids of illegals were going to take advantage of the resident tuition rates because they had low SAT scores. That is just a fact and the reason we needn’t worry that they are somehow making out like bandits on that deal. They aren’t.”

    Your post below might help jog your memory:

    sg at 78

    “They come for the higher standard of living. Higher standards of living are created by high functioning people. Low functioning people can only get that higher standard of living by living in closer proximity to higher functioning people. They themselves do not become higher functioning, but they benefit from the framework and generosity of those who are. However, the higher the proportion of low functioning people, the lower the standard of living. We overgeneralize when we equate their escape from Mexico with the Europeans who came to the US. At the time, Europe was the highest functioning society on the planet, so it is no surprise that the folks who came maintained that. However, when people from low functioning places migrate, they bring that dysfunction with them. That is why these immigrants have high levels of social pathology.”

  • Grace

    sg at 107

    Kerner wrote: “Your level of disrespect for humbler vocations never ceases to amaze me. Doing a job really well seems to mean nothing to you if that job requires dedication, but not high SAT scores.”

    sg WROTE: “Hmm. Not sure where you got that idea. I only said that very few of the kids of illegals were going to take advantage of the resident tuition rates because they had low SAT scores. That is just a fact and the reason we needn’t worry that they are somehow making out like bandits on that deal. They aren’t.”

    Your post below might help jog your memory:

    sg at 78

    “They come for the higher standard of living. Higher standards of living are created by high functioning people. Low functioning people can only get that higher standard of living by living in closer proximity to higher functioning people. They themselves do not become higher functioning, but they benefit from the framework and generosity of those who are. However, the higher the proportion of low functioning people, the lower the standard of living. We overgeneralize when we equate their escape from Mexico with the Europeans who came to the US. At the time, Europe was the highest functioning society on the planet, so it is no surprise that the folks who came maintained that. However, when people from low functioning places migrate, they bring that dysfunction with them. That is why these immigrants have high levels of social pathology.”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t get your point, Grace. Could you explain it?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t get your point, Grace. Could you explain it?

  • Grace

    sg @107

    YOU WROTE:

    “As for doing a good job for low wages, that is fine and respectable but why is it so much worse to just charge the patron the rate required to pay the citizen maid the rate she could get if the labor market weren’t flooded with foreigners? I have actually worked as a hotel maid and it doesn’t take hours to clean a hotel room. So charging a dollar or two more per room wouldn’t run the hotel out of business. The fact is the presence of illegals doesn’t change the price that the market will bear, it just raises profits for the hotel. “

    sg, it’s obvious from what you written, that you don’t understand business, or all the costs which are not obvious. Your idea of giving the maid more money has nothing to do with legal or illegal. The hotel business along with resturants and the entire hospitality industry has not done that well for some time. If those who are not illegal wanted the jobs, they would get them, they don’t want the jobs because they want more money than their worth. The unions have also wracked havoc with the hospitality industry.

  • Grace

    sg @107

    YOU WROTE:

    “As for doing a good job for low wages, that is fine and respectable but why is it so much worse to just charge the patron the rate required to pay the citizen maid the rate she could get if the labor market weren’t flooded with foreigners? I have actually worked as a hotel maid and it doesn’t take hours to clean a hotel room. So charging a dollar or two more per room wouldn’t run the hotel out of business. The fact is the presence of illegals doesn’t change the price that the market will bear, it just raises profits for the hotel. “

    sg, it’s obvious from what you written, that you don’t understand business, or all the costs which are not obvious. Your idea of giving the maid more money has nothing to do with legal or illegal. The hotel business along with resturants and the entire hospitality industry has not done that well for some time. If those who are not illegal wanted the jobs, they would get them, they don’t want the jobs because they want more money than their worth. The unions have also wracked havoc with the hospitality industry.

  • Grace

    sg @ 114

    You wrote: “I don’t get your point, Grace. Could you explain it?”

    I’m not going to try and guess which post you mean, or what paragraph you’re referring to. Try using post numbers, and copy paste whatever it is you cannot understand.

  • Grace

    sg @ 114

    You wrote: “I don’t get your point, Grace. Could you explain it?”

    I’m not going to try and guess which post you mean, or what paragraph you’re referring to. Try using post numbers, and copy paste whatever it is you cannot understand.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “To OFTEN, they don’t want to work up to the position they desire, they want the managerial job before they have learned to wait tables, and learn the business.”

    Sounds like blame the victim bull. Sure there are some like that, but you defame plenty of people who really do want to work.

    “sg, did you have a professional career that lasted over a period of time ? 10 plus years? I ask this question because it appears you have no clue as to how a corporation works, or a small business.”

    Yeah, but you overstate the value of experience. At one of my first jobs, after I had been there almost a year, I advised them to restructure the dept. They said they would like to but didn’t think it was feasible. I showed them my plan, which they adopted and retained for about 5 or 6 years till there was a major reorganization that moved some of the department responsibilities to some other departments. I was the youngest one there, with the least experience but more letters after my name, which probably impressed them more than it did me.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “To OFTEN, they don’t want to work up to the position they desire, they want the managerial job before they have learned to wait tables, and learn the business.”

    Sounds like blame the victim bull. Sure there are some like that, but you defame plenty of people who really do want to work.

    “sg, did you have a professional career that lasted over a period of time ? 10 plus years? I ask this question because it appears you have no clue as to how a corporation works, or a small business.”

    Yeah, but you overstate the value of experience. At one of my first jobs, after I had been there almost a year, I advised them to restructure the dept. They said they would like to but didn’t think it was feasible. I showed them my plan, which they adopted and retained for about 5 or 6 years till there was a major reorganization that moved some of the department responsibilities to some other departments. I was the youngest one there, with the least experience but more letters after my name, which probably impressed them more than it did me.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t understand the point of comment 113.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t understand the point of comment 113.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your idea of giving the maid more money has nothing to do with legal or illegal.”

    Yes, it does. A higher wage gets more applicants. Surplus labor depresses wages. If the hotel couldn’t get a cheap illegal, they would pay more to a citizen.

    Look, all the variables are known. Even if we haven’t made an exhaustive list. We know that wages are flat and the labor pool is growing and the labor participation rate is falling. Meanwhile profits are increasing. I agree this helps some business more than others, but the fact is the net benefits are going to the top, not to average people. That is why you get headlines saying that the poverty rate is rising. Well duh. More workers working for less or unemployed. But the top is doing better than ever.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Your idea of giving the maid more money has nothing to do with legal or illegal.”

    Yes, it does. A higher wage gets more applicants. Surplus labor depresses wages. If the hotel couldn’t get a cheap illegal, they would pay more to a citizen.

    Look, all the variables are known. Even if we haven’t made an exhaustive list. We know that wages are flat and the labor pool is growing and the labor participation rate is falling. Meanwhile profits are increasing. I agree this helps some business more than others, but the fact is the net benefits are going to the top, not to average people. That is why you get headlines saying that the poverty rate is rising. Well duh. More workers working for less or unemployed. But the top is doing better than ever.

  • Grace

    sg @ 118

    Your comments regarding illegals as “low functioning” is insulting, Kerner saw it and so do I.

  • Grace

    sg @ 118

    Your comments regarding illegals as “low functioning” is insulting, Kerner saw it and so do I.

  • Grace

    sg 117

    You write: “Sounds like blame the victim bull. Sure there are some like that, but you defame plenty of people who really do want to work.”

    You’re twisting a few posts together here. Again, use post number, is that so difficult to remember?
    There is no “victim” – they do need to learn a business, such as restaurant, before they can move on to the next step.

    YOU WROTE: “I was the youngest one there, with the least experience but more letters after my name, which probably impressed them more than it did me.”

    You don’t state what type of business it was,… in fact you’re more than vague. Your constant comments are transparent, as to how you identify yourself ….. regarding SAT scores, “low functioning” people, and now “letters after my name” -

  • Grace

    sg 117

    You write: “Sounds like blame the victim bull. Sure there are some like that, but you defame plenty of people who really do want to work.”

    You’re twisting a few posts together here. Again, use post number, is that so difficult to remember?
    There is no “victim” – they do need to learn a business, such as restaurant, before they can move on to the next step.

    YOU WROTE: “I was the youngest one there, with the least experience but more letters after my name, which probably impressed them more than it did me.”

    You don’t state what type of business it was,… in fact you’re more than vague. Your constant comments are transparent, as to how you identify yourself ….. regarding SAT scores, “low functioning” people, and now “letters after my name” -

  • Grace

    sg @ 117

    Yeah, but you overstate the value of experience.

    No I don’t everstate the importance at all, it is vital, in most all positions, be it medicine, banking, legal, accounting, research, managerial positions, etc. I would not hire anyone without experience for a top position, unless it was an entry level position – Those are without experience who think “they know it all” are not a good choice, it never works out. I would not have put my position on the line by hiring anyone without experience. I’m not talking about those who clean, etc.

  • Grace

    sg @ 117

    Yeah, but you overstate the value of experience.

    No I don’t everstate the importance at all, it is vital, in most all positions, be it medicine, banking, legal, accounting, research, managerial positions, etc. I would not hire anyone without experience for a top position, unless it was an entry level position – Those are without experience who think “they know it all” are not a good choice, it never works out. I would not have put my position on the line by hiring anyone without experience. I’m not talking about those who clean, etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You don’t state what type of business it was,… in fact you’re more than vague.”

    Good catch. I did that on purpose.

    “Your constant comments are transparent, as to how you identify yourself ….. regarding SAT scores, “low functioning” people, and now “letters after my name” -”

    What does this mean? And what does it have to do with what you asked or what is being discussed?

    Seems pretty irrelevant.

    Do you think we can have an ever growing labor pool of unskilled workers making very low wages who are entitled to a minimum standard of living on the public dime and we will be able to sustain this? No economists think so.

    Or do you think the ever increasing proportion of uneducated and ineducable folks will be able to earn ever higher wages? No economists think so.

    The folks need to earn more so they can provide for themselves, or the higher earners will have to be taxed ever more to care for those at the bottom till we are bankrupt.

    What else is there?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “You don’t state what type of business it was,… in fact you’re more than vague.”

    Good catch. I did that on purpose.

    “Your constant comments are transparent, as to how you identify yourself ….. regarding SAT scores, “low functioning” people, and now “letters after my name” -”

    What does this mean? And what does it have to do with what you asked or what is being discussed?

    Seems pretty irrelevant.

    Do you think we can have an ever growing labor pool of unskilled workers making very low wages who are entitled to a minimum standard of living on the public dime and we will be able to sustain this? No economists think so.

    Or do you think the ever increasing proportion of uneducated and ineducable folks will be able to earn ever higher wages? No economists think so.

    The folks need to earn more so they can provide for themselves, or the higher earners will have to be taxed ever more to care for those at the bottom till we are bankrupt.

    What else is there?

  • Grace

    sg @ 123

    YOU WROTE: “Good catch. I did that on purpose.”

    Yes I know. Your answer isn’t very clever. You’ve said a lot by that fumble, .. it wasn’t a good catch, it was OBVIOUS!

    What I said, and what I asked for is relevant, you know that, and so do I.

    Bluffing is an old game, one that’s easy to detect. I have never been impressed when it’s played!

    Good night sg -

  • Grace

    sg @ 123

    YOU WROTE: “Good catch. I did that on purpose.”

    Yes I know. Your answer isn’t very clever. You’ve said a lot by that fumble, .. it wasn’t a good catch, it was OBVIOUS!

    What I said, and what I asked for is relevant, you know that, and so do I.

    Bluffing is an old game, one that’s easy to detect. I have never been impressed when it’s played!

    Good night sg -

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those are without experience who think “they know it all” are not a good choice, it never works out.”

    Okay, but what about those new hires who don’t think they know it all, but just give their opinion when asked and before they know it, folks keep coming to them for ideas? They have less experience but do a good job anyway. They get promoted and keep doing well and are well liked and their former coworkers who have more experience are glad that they got promoted because now they have a great boss. That does happen.

    Besides, I don’t think experience is worthless, but it is only one thing. Some people have experience and still struggle. Others figure stuff out faster. We have all seen experienced people who are not particularly able. On average the same person is better after he has more experience.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those are without experience who think “they know it all” are not a good choice, it never works out.”

    Okay, but what about those new hires who don’t think they know it all, but just give their opinion when asked and before they know it, folks keep coming to them for ideas? They have less experience but do a good job anyway. They get promoted and keep doing well and are well liked and their former coworkers who have more experience are glad that they got promoted because now they have a great boss. That does happen.

    Besides, I don’t think experience is worthless, but it is only one thing. Some people have experience and still struggle. Others figure stuff out faster. We have all seen experienced people who are not particularly able. On average the same person is better after he has more experience.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @124 the ad hominem.

    That is the angle you have been working the whole time. The ad hominem just needs to establish that the person making an argument is a bad person, and then magically the opposing view must be correct because a good person is making the argument.

    Wherever I worked is not relevant to the points I made and which you never answered.

    Why is an illegal your neighbor but your fellow citizen is not?

    How can we constantly expand the unskilled labor pool without expanding unskilled labor positions and provide first world services to a population that has third world productivity levels?

    Answers for those questions are more relevant than my old jobs.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @124 the ad hominem.

    That is the angle you have been working the whole time. The ad hominem just needs to establish that the person making an argument is a bad person, and then magically the opposing view must be correct because a good person is making the argument.

    Wherever I worked is not relevant to the points I made and which you never answered.

    Why is an illegal your neighbor but your fellow citizen is not?

    How can we constantly expand the unskilled labor pool without expanding unskilled labor positions and provide first world services to a population that has third world productivity levels?

    Answers for those questions are more relevant than my old jobs.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@104), you responded to me:

    Good point, and one that underscores the fact that we don’t need to import tons of low earning people when we already have tons of unemployed citizens who also need services.

    As Kerner has pointed out, it’s quite likely that your “5th grade word problem” is so disconnected from reality that it’s useless.
    If it can, somehow, be used to argue against more illegal immigrants, then it must certainly also tell us that people need to have fewer children — since, again, by your logic, the majority of children in schools are not covered solely by their parents’ taxes. Are you, therefore, arguing that Texans also need to have fewer children, so as to save the state money?

    Also, as Grace has noted, it’s patently ridiculous to use the term “import” to describe how these immigrants got here, and it does your argument no favors.

    Another flaw in this argument of yours is that government services should somehow be paid for on a per-person basis by taxes. That is, that the services I use should be covered by the taxes I incur. That is, in short, a pointless view of government. If you’re going to argue that people should only benefit from what they personally put in, then what’s the point of collecting taxes in the first place?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@104), you responded to me:

    Good point, and one that underscores the fact that we don’t need to import tons of low earning people when we already have tons of unemployed citizens who also need services.

    As Kerner has pointed out, it’s quite likely that your “5th grade word problem” is so disconnected from reality that it’s useless.
    If it can, somehow, be used to argue against more illegal immigrants, then it must certainly also tell us that people need to have fewer children — since, again, by your logic, the majority of children in schools are not covered solely by their parents’ taxes. Are you, therefore, arguing that Texans also need to have fewer children, so as to save the state money?

    Also, as Grace has noted, it’s patently ridiculous to use the term “import” to describe how these immigrants got here, and it does your argument no favors.

    Another flaw in this argument of yours is that government services should somehow be paid for on a per-person basis by taxes. That is, that the services I use should be covered by the taxes I incur. That is, in short, a pointless view of government. If you’re going to argue that people should only benefit from what they personally put in, then what’s the point of collecting taxes in the first place?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As Kerner has pointed out, it’s quite likely that your “5th grade word problem” is so disconnected from reality that it’s useless.”

    Asserting that it is useless is just a way to avoid discussing the fact that the services low skilled workers receive exceed the amount they pay it taxes for those services. Since most states are in debt and it’s growing, shows that services cost more than taxes collected. It is easy to establish that mid to upper income pay more in taxes and receive less in services. Therefore it makes sense to have fewer unemployed or low wage earners and more higher earning workers. This is why everyone screams at the schools to produce higher performing students.

    If it can, somehow, be used to argue against more illegal immigrants, then it must certainly also tell us that people need to have fewer children — since, again, by your logic, the majority of children in schools are not covered solely by their parents’ taxes. Are you, therefore, arguing that Texans also need to have fewer children, so as to save the state money?

    No, because history shows that our own kids perform well here. We have already seen what we get when we invest in their education. We have also seen what we get from our investment in the education of illegals. We get a different distribution that is disproportionally dependent. I am arguing that illegals are lower performing on average than legal immigrants and native born and that we don’t need to add disproportionally to the low functioning group. We have plenty already. Also, our native born kids have rights and can’t be abused like illegals can.

    “Another flaw in this argument of yours is that government services should somehow be paid for on a per-person basis by taxes.”

    Actually I am not arguing that. There will always be those who need extra help and everyone is fine with that. However, it is easier to manage when then are a lower percentage of the total. When 80% are medium to high functioning, there is enough to share with the bottom 20%. When 80% are low functioning, and mid to high are only 20%, then the burden is overwhelming. That is more like Mexico. The more of that we import the more it will be like Mexico because they bring their culture and performance levels with them. They don’t change when they cross the border. Right now we have cultural hegemony, but our values work with higher functioning people.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As Kerner has pointed out, it’s quite likely that your “5th grade word problem” is so disconnected from reality that it’s useless.”

    Asserting that it is useless is just a way to avoid discussing the fact that the services low skilled workers receive exceed the amount they pay it taxes for those services. Since most states are in debt and it’s growing, shows that services cost more than taxes collected. It is easy to establish that mid to upper income pay more in taxes and receive less in services. Therefore it makes sense to have fewer unemployed or low wage earners and more higher earning workers. This is why everyone screams at the schools to produce higher performing students.

    If it can, somehow, be used to argue against more illegal immigrants, then it must certainly also tell us that people need to have fewer children — since, again, by your logic, the majority of children in schools are not covered solely by their parents’ taxes. Are you, therefore, arguing that Texans also need to have fewer children, so as to save the state money?

    No, because history shows that our own kids perform well here. We have already seen what we get when we invest in their education. We have also seen what we get from our investment in the education of illegals. We get a different distribution that is disproportionally dependent. I am arguing that illegals are lower performing on average than legal immigrants and native born and that we don’t need to add disproportionally to the low functioning group. We have plenty already. Also, our native born kids have rights and can’t be abused like illegals can.

    “Another flaw in this argument of yours is that government services should somehow be paid for on a per-person basis by taxes.”

    Actually I am not arguing that. There will always be those who need extra help and everyone is fine with that. However, it is easier to manage when then are a lower percentage of the total. When 80% are medium to high functioning, there is enough to share with the bottom 20%. When 80% are low functioning, and mid to high are only 20%, then the burden is overwhelming. That is more like Mexico. The more of that we import the more it will be like Mexico because they bring their culture and performance levels with them. They don’t change when they cross the border. Right now we have cultural hegemony, but our values work with higher functioning people.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oh, and why are illegals our neighbors, but our fellow citizens aren’t?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oh, and why are illegals our neighbors, but our fellow citizens aren’t?

  • kerner

    sg:

    You’re killing me. I am working this afternoon, so I won’t be able to
    go point by point over the last 30 comments, but I can see that the problem here is a basic misunderstanding of how a free market economic system works. Take our exchange @109:

    “Plus, some immigrants advance in their fields. Yesterday’s bus person becomes today’s server, and maybe tomorrow’s restaurant manager, if not kept out of the competition by the protectionist legal system.”

    Okay, but why do you think that your fellow citizen should not get that job? Why aren’t your fellow citizen your “neighbor” but an illegal is?

    Nobody should get a job. People compete for a job. Maybe the reason the immigrant gets the job and not the citizen is that the immigrant already knows the business from the bottom up after all that bussing and serving, while the citizen never learned the business. Maybe the immigrant is well known by the owner after working in lower jobs and is therefore considered trustworthy, while the citizen is unknown. Maybe the immigrant considers restautant management a carreer objective, while the citizen thinks of it as a low respect stepping stone to something better. There are a lot of reasons why a restaurant owner might consider the immigrant a better candidate for the manager job. Maybe the immigrant will work a little cheaper.

    But a better question is why you think you are such a good social engineer as to be best suited to pick the restaurant owner’s employees for him. The owner should have a right to hire the person he consider’s the best fit. The question of where the employee was born is utterly irrelevant. Nobody has a right to a job simply by being American. Everybody has to compete for and earn that position.

    It’s like anything else that’s on the market. When you buy a product in a store, you don’t worry about where it came from. You care about the level of quality, whether the product has the features that suit your needs, and the amount of money you can afford to spend. Based on those considerations, you make the deal and buy the item. You don’t worry about whether that brand “deserves” your money. We buy products from all over the world using the considerations of quality, utility and cost.

    The labor market is no different, and it shouldn’t be. If Americans want someone to buy their labor, they have to they have to convince employers that (balancing the quality, usefulness and cost of their labor) that they are the best person for the job.

  • kerner

    sg:

    You’re killing me. I am working this afternoon, so I won’t be able to
    go point by point over the last 30 comments, but I can see that the problem here is a basic misunderstanding of how a free market economic system works. Take our exchange @109:

    “Plus, some immigrants advance in their fields. Yesterday’s bus person becomes today’s server, and maybe tomorrow’s restaurant manager, if not kept out of the competition by the protectionist legal system.”

    Okay, but why do you think that your fellow citizen should not get that job? Why aren’t your fellow citizen your “neighbor” but an illegal is?

    Nobody should get a job. People compete for a job. Maybe the reason the immigrant gets the job and not the citizen is that the immigrant already knows the business from the bottom up after all that bussing and serving, while the citizen never learned the business. Maybe the immigrant is well known by the owner after working in lower jobs and is therefore considered trustworthy, while the citizen is unknown. Maybe the immigrant considers restautant management a carreer objective, while the citizen thinks of it as a low respect stepping stone to something better. There are a lot of reasons why a restaurant owner might consider the immigrant a better candidate for the manager job. Maybe the immigrant will work a little cheaper.

    But a better question is why you think you are such a good social engineer as to be best suited to pick the restaurant owner’s employees for him. The owner should have a right to hire the person he consider’s the best fit. The question of where the employee was born is utterly irrelevant. Nobody has a right to a job simply by being American. Everybody has to compete for and earn that position.

    It’s like anything else that’s on the market. When you buy a product in a store, you don’t worry about where it came from. You care about the level of quality, whether the product has the features that suit your needs, and the amount of money you can afford to spend. Based on those considerations, you make the deal and buy the item. You don’t worry about whether that brand “deserves” your money. We buy products from all over the world using the considerations of quality, utility and cost.

    The labor market is no different, and it shouldn’t be. If Americans want someone to buy their labor, they have to they have to convince employers that (balancing the quality, usefulness and cost of their labor) that they are the best person for the job.

  • kerner

    (Continued)

    You also don’t seem to grasp the value that competition adds to our society. You pooh-pooh the tens of billions of dollars Texans save every year in food costs as though they don’t exist. But just based on a $70.00 dollar savings per week, that money clearly does exist, to the tune of $30B. They only problem with my analysis is that the $70 figure is an unsupported estimate, but even if it were $$35, that would still mean a savings of $15 billion.

    And that’s just food, I doesn’t even take into account all the other things that immigrants do. But back to economics.

    The primary benefit of competition is that it brings prices down for everyone. So no, I don’t for a minute agree that cheap labor helps the rich but not the rest of us. Let me explain.

    Take the hospitality industry. This is a luxury industry. Nobody has to stay in a hotel by and large. But if I want to take my grand kids to Disney World, I have to stay in a hotel, which means that I have to be able to afford to pay the hotel, which means the hotel has to offer me an affordable price, but it also has to be a nice enough place for me to want to stay there with my grandkids. And how does the hotel get to be both nice and affordable?, And what makes me choose Hotel A over Hotels B, C, and D? Competition!!!! that’s what. Two immigrant groups (Indian/Pakistani entreprenures and Hispanic workers) have entered this field in a big way. But it is not their national origin that matters to me. What matters is that the competition in the hospitality industry, of which they are a very big part, has resulted in a number of decent quality hotels that I can afford. And it’s not just me. A lot of people who are of more modest means than I can stay in a decent hotel too. Why? Because all those competing immigrants have gotten the price down to a point where most ordinary people can afford to stay in one. But if there were less competition, there would be fewer hotels and they would cost more, and fewer people would be able to afford them and all those ordinary people you claim to care so much about would never see Disney World.

    And that’s true of everything we buy in this country. Think of all the goods and services we buy and take for granted. Do you really think that we could afford to buy all those things if they cost a lot more, because some social engineer decided that a lot of high cost, low productivity, workers somehow “deserved” jobs, and that the more competitive workers should be just out of luck. Really???

    You pride your self on sticking to facts and “the numbers”, sg, and on not being swwayed by emotional nonsense. But on this it is YOU who are being emotional and YOU who are ignoring the numbers.

    One thing more. Your definition of “high functioning” person needs to be revised. Take a worker in a poultry processing plant. Someone who disembowels and cuts up chickens 9 hours a day. If that worker is from Mexico, and he cranks out 10 pallets of dressed chicken a day, for $11/hr. , while his his closest American competition will only produce 7 pallets a day for $13/hr., then the Mexican is a “high functioning” person, and I want him right where he is. Because he’s the reason we can all eat as much chicken as we do, and he’s saving us all a lot of money.

    The last thing I want is for some social engineer to deport the poor guy, whose only crime seems to be doing a good job, so some lower productivity/higher cost worker can take some of the chicken out of my grandchildren’s mouths. So , yeah, I AM thinking about my grandkids, sg. You should be too.

    And if there are excessive costs associated with the welfare state, then clean up the welfare state and get off the back of our competition based economy.

  • kerner

    (Continued)

    You also don’t seem to grasp the value that competition adds to our society. You pooh-pooh the tens of billions of dollars Texans save every year in food costs as though they don’t exist. But just based on a $70.00 dollar savings per week, that money clearly does exist, to the tune of $30B. They only problem with my analysis is that the $70 figure is an unsupported estimate, but even if it were $$35, that would still mean a savings of $15 billion.

    And that’s just food, I doesn’t even take into account all the other things that immigrants do. But back to economics.

    The primary benefit of competition is that it brings prices down for everyone. So no, I don’t for a minute agree that cheap labor helps the rich but not the rest of us. Let me explain.

    Take the hospitality industry. This is a luxury industry. Nobody has to stay in a hotel by and large. But if I want to take my grand kids to Disney World, I have to stay in a hotel, which means that I have to be able to afford to pay the hotel, which means the hotel has to offer me an affordable price, but it also has to be a nice enough place for me to want to stay there with my grandkids. And how does the hotel get to be both nice and affordable?, And what makes me choose Hotel A over Hotels B, C, and D? Competition!!!! that’s what. Two immigrant groups (Indian/Pakistani entreprenures and Hispanic workers) have entered this field in a big way. But it is not their national origin that matters to me. What matters is that the competition in the hospitality industry, of which they are a very big part, has resulted in a number of decent quality hotels that I can afford. And it’s not just me. A lot of people who are of more modest means than I can stay in a decent hotel too. Why? Because all those competing immigrants have gotten the price down to a point where most ordinary people can afford to stay in one. But if there were less competition, there would be fewer hotels and they would cost more, and fewer people would be able to afford them and all those ordinary people you claim to care so much about would never see Disney World.

    And that’s true of everything we buy in this country. Think of all the goods and services we buy and take for granted. Do you really think that we could afford to buy all those things if they cost a lot more, because some social engineer decided that a lot of high cost, low productivity, workers somehow “deserved” jobs, and that the more competitive workers should be just out of luck. Really???

    You pride your self on sticking to facts and “the numbers”, sg, and on not being swwayed by emotional nonsense. But on this it is YOU who are being emotional and YOU who are ignoring the numbers.

    One thing more. Your definition of “high functioning” person needs to be revised. Take a worker in a poultry processing plant. Someone who disembowels and cuts up chickens 9 hours a day. If that worker is from Mexico, and he cranks out 10 pallets of dressed chicken a day, for $11/hr. , while his his closest American competition will only produce 7 pallets a day for $13/hr., then the Mexican is a “high functioning” person, and I want him right where he is. Because he’s the reason we can all eat as much chicken as we do, and he’s saving us all a lot of money.

    The last thing I want is for some social engineer to deport the poor guy, whose only crime seems to be doing a good job, so some lower productivity/higher cost worker can take some of the chicken out of my grandchildren’s mouths. So , yeah, I AM thinking about my grandkids, sg. You should be too.

    And if there are excessive costs associated with the welfare state, then clean up the welfare state and get off the back of our competition based economy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5794948

    Demographic trends in today’s world are dominated by large fertility differentials between nations, with ‘less developed’ nations having higher fertility than the more advanced nations. The present study investigates whether these fertility differences are related primarily to indicators of economic development, the intellectual level of the population, or political modernity in the form of liberal democracy. Results obtained with multiple regression, path models and latent variable models are compared. Both log-transformed GDP and measures of intelligence independently reduce fertility across all methods, whereas the effects of liberal democracy are weak and inconsistent. At present rates of fertility and mortality and in the absence of changes within countries, the average IQ of the young world population would decline by 1.34 points per decade and the average per capita income would decline by 0.79% per year.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=5794948

    Demographic trends in today’s world are dominated by large fertility differentials between nations, with ‘less developed’ nations having higher fertility than the more advanced nations. The present study investigates whether these fertility differences are related primarily to indicators of economic development, the intellectual level of the population, or political modernity in the form of liberal democracy. Results obtained with multiple regression, path models and latent variable models are compared. Both log-transformed GDP and measures of intelligence independently reduce fertility across all methods, whereas the effects of liberal democracy are weak and inconsistent. At present rates of fertility and mortality and in the absence of changes within countries, the average IQ of the young world population would decline by 1.34 points per decade and the average per capita income would decline by 0.79% per year.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Nobody should get a job. People compete for a job.”

    Among citizens, I would agree.

    I would add, nobody should get the employee he wants. Employers compete for employees.

    The question is not whether someone should have a job, but whether citizens have rights in their own country. What I am hearing is that employers have rights but workers are SOL and literally stuck competing with everyone on the planet despite the fact that their duly elected representatives passed laws regulating immigration. The citizens’ representatives created social safety nets for fellow citizens not for everyone on the planet.

    Do citizens have the right to expect the enforcement of the laws?

    What I am hearing is that no, they don’t, because people with more money and power than they have want to make higher profits, therefore the laws will not be enforced because it is not in the interest of the powerful.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Nobody should get a job. People compete for a job.”

    Among citizens, I would agree.

    I would add, nobody should get the employee he wants. Employers compete for employees.

    The question is not whether someone should have a job, but whether citizens have rights in their own country. What I am hearing is that employers have rights but workers are SOL and literally stuck competing with everyone on the planet despite the fact that their duly elected representatives passed laws regulating immigration. The citizens’ representatives created social safety nets for fellow citizens not for everyone on the planet.

    Do citizens have the right to expect the enforcement of the laws?

    What I am hearing is that no, they don’t, because people with more money and power than they have want to make higher profits, therefore the laws will not be enforced because it is not in the interest of the powerful.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But a better question is why you think you are such a good social engineer as to be best suited to pick the restaurant owner’s employees for him.”

    Why does the restaurant owner think he is such a good social engineer that he can break the duly enacted laws of this country and violate the rights of his fellow citizens so that he can use illegal foreign workers to enrich himself while expecting his fellow citizens to pay social benefits for his illegal workers?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “But a better question is why you think you are such a good social engineer as to be best suited to pick the restaurant owner’s employees for him.”

    Why does the restaurant owner think he is such a good social engineer that he can break the duly enacted laws of this country and violate the rights of his fellow citizens so that he can use illegal foreign workers to enrich himself while expecting his fellow citizens to pay social benefits for his illegal workers?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    And what makes me choose Hotel A over Hotels B, C, and D? Competition!!!! that’s what. Two immigrant groups (Indian/Pakistani entreprenures and Hispanic workers) have entered this field in a big way. But it is not their national origin that matters to me. What matters is that the competition in the hospitality industry, of which they are a very big part, has resulted in a number of decent quality hotels that I can afford.”

    Minorities qualify for specific help from the government when entering the market. It is not a free market. It is subsidized by taxpayers for the benefit and promotion of minority interests above those invested in building this country.

    It is the opposite of a level playing field. Indians and Mexicans have a level playing field in their home countries. Many who can’t compete and advance on a level playing can come here and enjoy a playing field that is stacked in their favor.

    We need to be honest about the facts.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    And what makes me choose Hotel A over Hotels B, C, and D? Competition!!!! that’s what. Two immigrant groups (Indian/Pakistani entreprenures and Hispanic workers) have entered this field in a big way. But it is not their national origin that matters to me. What matters is that the competition in the hospitality industry, of which they are a very big part, has resulted in a number of decent quality hotels that I can afford.”

    Minorities qualify for specific help from the government when entering the market. It is not a free market. It is subsidized by taxpayers for the benefit and promotion of minority interests above those invested in building this country.

    It is the opposite of a level playing field. Indians and Mexicans have a level playing field in their home countries. Many who can’t compete and advance on a level playing can come here and enjoy a playing field that is stacked in their favor.

    We need to be honest about the facts.

  • Grace

    Racism is an ugly disease (sin) of the heart, when it comes into full bloom it never accomplishes anything but pain and sorrow.

    racism – definition

    1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
    2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

    The LORD Jesus Christ never taught racism!

  • Grace

    Racism is an ugly disease (sin) of the heart, when it comes into full bloom it never accomplishes anything but pain and sorrow.

    racism – definition

    1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
    2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

    The LORD Jesus Christ never taught racism!

  • kerner

    sg:

    The restaurant owner doesn’t think he’s a social engineer at all, nor does the hotellier or the poultry processor. They all think they’re running businesses and they want the best employees for their respective jobs. The whole point of the free market is that ALL social engineering is crock. You can’t control what makes people productive by central planning. Competition is what brings out the best in workers and companies alike, and it creates the most prosperity. Protectionism retards prosperity.

    Indians and Mixivans have a level playing field in their home countries

    Now THAT is one of the most patently false statements you have ever made. The “playing fields” in both those countries are are controlled in ways that protect those with power and wealth from competition. They are anything but level. You only think the playing fields are level because you are observing them superficially,( i.e. everybody is of a similar ethnic background, so the playing field must be level.) The “playing fields” of feudal Europe weren’t “level”. either.

    The reason immigrants come here is that the US playing field is the most level one there is.

    You have a point about there being laws that “protect minorities entering the market”, but your solution is more of the same, which is the heart of your mistake. If laws exist today that shield the unproductive from competition, then those laws should be eliminated entirely, or their negative effects should be limited as much as possible. The very last thing we need is MORE “protection” for the unproductive. Your solution to unproductive minorities seems to be to encourage unproductivity among white “citizens”, and to even further encourage unproductivity among minority “citizens” (as if they weren’t unproductive enough already, or as if being unproductive were some kind of civil right).

    Nobody goes to a Hotel or buys chicken because minorities are involved in those industries, and the minorities did not become involved in those industries because protectionist laws helped them. People go to hotels and buy chicken because they want those things, and thanks to competition, they are of high quality and people can afford them. The people in those industries have jobs because they were willing to do what it takes to make those industries competitive.

    I can’t read the cambridge study without spending $40.00, but I’ll bet it doesn’t take into account the degree of competition in the economies of the countries studied. The so called “liberal democrasies” of Europe encourage unproductivity as much or more than the most undeveloped countries. Greece isn’t in crisis because its people have low SAT scores. It’s in crisis because its laws eggregiously encourage Greeks to be unproductive.

    The reason I am not as worried as you about the possible decline in IQ levels is that prospertiy and strength in a society is based on many factors, of which SAT scores are only one. The society that will be successful in the future will be the one that is the most dynamic and productive. There is no test, no data, for that. The only way to determine who is a productive “high functioning” person in the real world is to let them compete and see who wins. The guy who produces 10 pallets of chicken for $11.00/hour is more valuable to society that the “citizen” who won’t do that, which is why the guy who produces the most chicken should get to be a citizen too, and ASAP.

  • kerner

    sg:

    The restaurant owner doesn’t think he’s a social engineer at all, nor does the hotellier or the poultry processor. They all think they’re running businesses and they want the best employees for their respective jobs. The whole point of the free market is that ALL social engineering is crock. You can’t control what makes people productive by central planning. Competition is what brings out the best in workers and companies alike, and it creates the most prosperity. Protectionism retards prosperity.

    Indians and Mixivans have a level playing field in their home countries

    Now THAT is one of the most patently false statements you have ever made. The “playing fields” in both those countries are are controlled in ways that protect those with power and wealth from competition. They are anything but level. You only think the playing fields are level because you are observing them superficially,( i.e. everybody is of a similar ethnic background, so the playing field must be level.) The “playing fields” of feudal Europe weren’t “level”. either.

    The reason immigrants come here is that the US playing field is the most level one there is.

    You have a point about there being laws that “protect minorities entering the market”, but your solution is more of the same, which is the heart of your mistake. If laws exist today that shield the unproductive from competition, then those laws should be eliminated entirely, or their negative effects should be limited as much as possible. The very last thing we need is MORE “protection” for the unproductive. Your solution to unproductive minorities seems to be to encourage unproductivity among white “citizens”, and to even further encourage unproductivity among minority “citizens” (as if they weren’t unproductive enough already, or as if being unproductive were some kind of civil right).

    Nobody goes to a Hotel or buys chicken because minorities are involved in those industries, and the minorities did not become involved in those industries because protectionist laws helped them. People go to hotels and buy chicken because they want those things, and thanks to competition, they are of high quality and people can afford them. The people in those industries have jobs because they were willing to do what it takes to make those industries competitive.

    I can’t read the cambridge study without spending $40.00, but I’ll bet it doesn’t take into account the degree of competition in the economies of the countries studied. The so called “liberal democrasies” of Europe encourage unproductivity as much or more than the most undeveloped countries. Greece isn’t in crisis because its people have low SAT scores. It’s in crisis because its laws eggregiously encourage Greeks to be unproductive.

    The reason I am not as worried as you about the possible decline in IQ levels is that prospertiy and strength in a society is based on many factors, of which SAT scores are only one. The society that will be successful in the future will be the one that is the most dynamic and productive. There is no test, no data, for that. The only way to determine who is a productive “high functioning” person in the real world is to let them compete and see who wins. The guy who produces 10 pallets of chicken for $11.00/hour is more valuable to society that the “citizen” who won’t do that, which is why the guy who produces the most chicken should get to be a citizen too, and ASAP.

  • kerner

    wow. I copied sg”s quote using my computer, not by trying to retype it. Yet” Mexicans” came out as “Mixivans”. How did that happen?

  • kerner

    wow. I copied sg”s quote using my computer, not by trying to retype it. Yet” Mexicans” came out as “Mixivans”. How did that happen?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Now THAT is one of the most patently false statements you have ever made.”

    No it isn’t.

    It is a level playing field in the sense that they compete with people with the same values as behaviors as themselves. Here, they compete at artificial advantage because this is a high trust society where people will trust them. In their own countries, their own folks know better. Don’t worry, when these foreigners get to the top, their interest in fairness is zero just like it is in their own home countries. Their will be no reciprocity.

    “The “playing fields” in both those countries are are controlled in ways that protect those with power and wealth from competition.”

    That is right. And they will carry on that tradition here just as soon as they are able. They laugh at the way we hand them our children’s inheritance.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Now THAT is one of the most patently false statements you have ever made.”

    No it isn’t.

    It is a level playing field in the sense that they compete with people with the same values as behaviors as themselves. Here, they compete at artificial advantage because this is a high trust society where people will trust them. In their own countries, their own folks know better. Don’t worry, when these foreigners get to the top, their interest in fairness is zero just like it is in their own home countries. Their will be no reciprocity.

    “The “playing fields” in both those countries are are controlled in ways that protect those with power and wealth from competition.”

    That is right. And they will carry on that tradition here just as soon as they are able. They laugh at the way we hand them our children’s inheritance.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The restaurant owner doesn’t think he’s a social engineer at all,”

    Uh, huh. He doesn’t think himself a criminal either even as he breaks the law. He is making more money by doing what is right in his own eyes. Therefore he must be right.

    I just reject that he has the right to break our laws.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The restaurant owner doesn’t think he’s a social engineer at all,”

    Uh, huh. He doesn’t think himself a criminal either even as he breaks the law. He is making more money by doing what is right in his own eyes. Therefore he must be right.

    I just reject that he has the right to break our laws.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Nobody goes to a Hotel or buys chicken because minorities are involved in those industries, and the minorities did not become involved in those industries because protectionist laws helped them. People go to hotels and buy chicken because they want those things, and thanks to competition, they are of high quality and people can afford them. The people in those industries have jobs because they were willing to do what it takes to make those industries competitive.

    They are competitive because of a lower cost of doing business because of government subsidies and set asides. Therefore they can offer things at a lower price. This is how China competes as well. They can abuse and underpay and exploit workers and that is a competitive advantage.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Nobody goes to a Hotel or buys chicken because minorities are involved in those industries, and the minorities did not become involved in those industries because protectionist laws helped them. People go to hotels and buy chicken because they want those things, and thanks to competition, they are of high quality and people can afford them. The people in those industries have jobs because they were willing to do what it takes to make those industries competitive.

    They are competitive because of a lower cost of doing business because of government subsidies and set asides. Therefore they can offer things at a lower price. This is how China competes as well. They can abuse and underpay and exploit workers and that is a competitive advantage.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 136

    Hilarious

    More ad hominem.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 136

    Hilarious

    More ad hominem.

  • kerner

    It is a level playing field in the sense that they compete with people with the same values as behaviors as themselves. Here, they compete at artificial advantage because this is a high trust society where people will trust them. In their own countries, their own folks know better. Don’t worry, when these foreigners get to the top, their interest in fairness is zero just like it is in their own home countries. Their will be no reciprocity.

    Most of that is a complete nonsequitor. You completely ignore the highly statified class structures most societies operate under and continue to focus on ethnicity. “High trust” Europe was a highly stratified class society until the mid 20th century, and to a much greater extent than the USA, remains so. By which I mean that it is much more difficult to move up or down from the economic class you are born into than it is here. So it is in most societies around the world. “High Trust” has nothing to do with it. What makes it so is those in power making rules that maintain the status quo and retarding the competition that could allow for economic mobility from class to class.

    Our immigration laws are just that. People who “have” trying to keep out competition from those who might win in an unrestricted contest. Such rules do little or nothing beyond rewarding mediocrity, which is far more unhealthy for a society than the introduction of different ethnic groups.

    What has made America different, and so much better, and so much stronger, than other “High trust” societies has been our willingness to keep the competition open to almost anyone who wants a chance. There’s nothing “artificial” about it. What it has been is unrestricted. Only recently, in the 1960′s, did American law attempt to make it illegal for foreigners to work in the United States. This legislation was drafted by Teddy Kennedy at the urging of his Labor Union supporters. And it has always been spottily enforced, because deep down Americans have a hard time persecuting someone who is just trying to make a living by working hard, especially once we get to know such a person as an individual. We always respect that.

    But at least for the people who manage to get in and work, they usually do better than they did in the old country, and many excel and pass us natives up. And I don’t begrudge them that one bit. That sense of industry is what makes our economy run and creates the prosperity we enjoy. As long as this country remains committed to a free market, it won’t matter whether foreigners want to be “fair”. Of course, by then, they won’t be foreigners anymore.

    “The “playing fields” in both those countries are are controlled in ways that protect those with power and wealth from competition.”

    That is right. And they will carry on that tradition here just as soon as they are able. They laugh at the way we hand them our children’s inheritance.”

    Look, I refer you to two men, both the sons of immigrants:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Hilton

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=229691

    Both men started with little. Both made fortunes (Hilton in hospitality, Moreno in Advertising and then Baseball and radio). do I feel sorry for their competitors who got passed by? Not in the least; that’s the nature of business. Will I fell sorry for their descendants (especially Paris Hilton) if they somehow lose “their inheritance” and have to work hard for a living for a change? Nope. And if a hotelier owned by an Indian-American someday overtakes Hilton, will I shed any tears? Not a chance. I’ll stay in the best hotel I can afford and I won’t evden think about the ethnicity of who provides it to me. That’s how the free market works.

    But I haven’t noticed any “foreigner” from a stratified society ever being able change our competitive economy. I have more to fear from “citizens” like you, trying to freeze everything in place with laws that protect the unproductive from competition.

    The only way to not be out-competed by immigrants is to be competitive ourselves. Our children will have to be competitive to get ahead, and that’s how I want them to be. The last thing I want my kids to be is such wimps that they can’t compete in a free market.

  • kerner

    It is a level playing field in the sense that they compete with people with the same values as behaviors as themselves. Here, they compete at artificial advantage because this is a high trust society where people will trust them. In their own countries, their own folks know better. Don’t worry, when these foreigners get to the top, their interest in fairness is zero just like it is in their own home countries. Their will be no reciprocity.

    Most of that is a complete nonsequitor. You completely ignore the highly statified class structures most societies operate under and continue to focus on ethnicity. “High trust” Europe was a highly stratified class society until the mid 20th century, and to a much greater extent than the USA, remains so. By which I mean that it is much more difficult to move up or down from the economic class you are born into than it is here. So it is in most societies around the world. “High Trust” has nothing to do with it. What makes it so is those in power making rules that maintain the status quo and retarding the competition that could allow for economic mobility from class to class.

    Our immigration laws are just that. People who “have” trying to keep out competition from those who might win in an unrestricted contest. Such rules do little or nothing beyond rewarding mediocrity, which is far more unhealthy for a society than the introduction of different ethnic groups.

    What has made America different, and so much better, and so much stronger, than other “High trust” societies has been our willingness to keep the competition open to almost anyone who wants a chance. There’s nothing “artificial” about it. What it has been is unrestricted. Only recently, in the 1960′s, did American law attempt to make it illegal for foreigners to work in the United States. This legislation was drafted by Teddy Kennedy at the urging of his Labor Union supporters. And it has always been spottily enforced, because deep down Americans have a hard time persecuting someone who is just trying to make a living by working hard, especially once we get to know such a person as an individual. We always respect that.

    But at least for the people who manage to get in and work, they usually do better than they did in the old country, and many excel and pass us natives up. And I don’t begrudge them that one bit. That sense of industry is what makes our economy run and creates the prosperity we enjoy. As long as this country remains committed to a free market, it won’t matter whether foreigners want to be “fair”. Of course, by then, they won’t be foreigners anymore.

    “The “playing fields” in both those countries are are controlled in ways that protect those with power and wealth from competition.”

    That is right. And they will carry on that tradition here just as soon as they are able. They laugh at the way we hand them our children’s inheritance.”

    Look, I refer you to two men, both the sons of immigrants:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Hilton

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=229691

    Both men started with little. Both made fortunes (Hilton in hospitality, Moreno in Advertising and then Baseball and radio). do I feel sorry for their competitors who got passed by? Not in the least; that’s the nature of business. Will I fell sorry for their descendants (especially Paris Hilton) if they somehow lose “their inheritance” and have to work hard for a living for a change? Nope. And if a hotelier owned by an Indian-American someday overtakes Hilton, will I shed any tears? Not a chance. I’ll stay in the best hotel I can afford and I won’t evden think about the ethnicity of who provides it to me. That’s how the free market works.

    But I haven’t noticed any “foreigner” from a stratified society ever being able change our competitive economy. I have more to fear from “citizens” like you, trying to freeze everything in place with laws that protect the unproductive from competition.

    The only way to not be out-competed by immigrants is to be competitive ourselves. Our children will have to be competitive to get ahead, and that’s how I want them to be. The last thing I want my kids to be is such wimps that they can’t compete in a free market.

  • kerner

    One last thing. If you go to a big commercial property, like a shopping mall, there are probaly some immigrants who have something to do with operating it, even if its just the janitorial crew and the bussers in the food court. Sure, instead of hiring the best people they could find, the owners could be hyper vigilant and hire less productive Americans, but then the work would be done more poorly, and the rent would have to increase, so the stores would have to raise their prices.

    As you walk through your local mall, do you really find yourself wishing that the place was dirtier and the merchandise more expensive?

  • kerner

    One last thing. If you go to a big commercial property, like a shopping mall, there are probaly some immigrants who have something to do with operating it, even if its just the janitorial crew and the bussers in the food court. Sure, instead of hiring the best people they could find, the owners could be hyper vigilant and hire less productive Americans, but then the work would be done more poorly, and the rent would have to increase, so the stores would have to raise their prices.

    As you walk through your local mall, do you really find yourself wishing that the place was dirtier and the merchandise more expensive?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As you walk through your local mall, do you really find yourself wishing that the place was dirtier and the merchandise more expensive?”

    Well, I have been to Europe where things are smaller and stuff is more expensive. I haven’t been to Japan which is safer and more expensive. I doubt the US would be dirtier without immigrants.

    But the point isn’t immigrants, rather the current group of illegal immigrants and their poor performance over time. There is a basic premise here, either all groups perform equally well in the US or they don’t. History shows the average performance of different groups is different not the same. So, increasing the proportion of low performing groups has no documented basis in increasing average prosperity over time.

    Now, we could continue on this same path while expecting that it will be different this time, I guess, but we don’t have a reason to think that it will.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “As you walk through your local mall, do you really find yourself wishing that the place was dirtier and the merchandise more expensive?”

    Well, I have been to Europe where things are smaller and stuff is more expensive. I haven’t been to Japan which is safer and more expensive. I doubt the US would be dirtier without immigrants.

    But the point isn’t immigrants, rather the current group of illegal immigrants and their poor performance over time. There is a basic premise here, either all groups perform equally well in the US or they don’t. History shows the average performance of different groups is different not the same. So, increasing the proportion of low performing groups has no documented basis in increasing average prosperity over time.

    Now, we could continue on this same path while expecting that it will be different this time, I guess, but we don’t have a reason to think that it will.

  • Grace

    “Well, I have been to Europe where things are smaller and stuff is more expensive. I haven’t been to Japan which is safer and more expensive. I doubt the US would be dirtier without immigrants.”

    This isn’t about Europe or Japan (the country you haven’t visited) its all about the United states:

    Where I live sg, .. we have some of the smartest malls in the U.S. they are filled with all the designer boutiques from around the world, Chanel, Prada, Christian Dior, Escada, Fendi, Gucci ….. the majority of stores bearing the names of the likes of Tiffany, and others. Add to that a large number of restaurants, café’s, white linen restaurants, famous chocolate stores, the latest in everything from china to silver and that just barely touches the surface. ……. “NOW back to “I doubt the US would be dirtier without immigrants”

    We have the cleanest malls I have ever shopped in, and I’ve shopped in many, in the U.S. and elsewhere .. we have the cleanest malls, and the smartest stores, and yes, those from below the southern border are the ones who clean, and shine, the doors, the beveled windows, the chrome and silver door handles, the finest marble floors and tile. They pick up the trash everywhere, clean and set all the tables, and many times are back in the kitchen preparing (with the chefs direction) all the delicacies people enjoy.

    I know the malls would be dirtier, without immigrants, and this is the reason:

    Those from below the southern border CONTRIBUTE more than you realize or give them credit – I must add it doesn’t say much for where you’ve been. You’ve either had your eyes shut or your heart needs adjusting – these people do all the things that those who look down on them won’t do, at any price – including the majority of young people,… who are lined up looking for potties, tents and free food while they scream and rant about Wall Street. They are the embarrassment in this country, their parents are most likely ashamed, if they aren’t they should be.

  • Grace

    “Well, I have been to Europe where things are smaller and stuff is more expensive. I haven’t been to Japan which is safer and more expensive. I doubt the US would be dirtier without immigrants.”

    This isn’t about Europe or Japan (the country you haven’t visited) its all about the United states:

    Where I live sg, .. we have some of the smartest malls in the U.S. they are filled with all the designer boutiques from around the world, Chanel, Prada, Christian Dior, Escada, Fendi, Gucci ….. the majority of stores bearing the names of the likes of Tiffany, and others. Add to that a large number of restaurants, café’s, white linen restaurants, famous chocolate stores, the latest in everything from china to silver and that just barely touches the surface. ……. “NOW back to “I doubt the US would be dirtier without immigrants”

    We have the cleanest malls I have ever shopped in, and I’ve shopped in many, in the U.S. and elsewhere .. we have the cleanest malls, and the smartest stores, and yes, those from below the southern border are the ones who clean, and shine, the doors, the beveled windows, the chrome and silver door handles, the finest marble floors and tile. They pick up the trash everywhere, clean and set all the tables, and many times are back in the kitchen preparing (with the chefs direction) all the delicacies people enjoy.

    I know the malls would be dirtier, without immigrants, and this is the reason:

    Those from below the southern border CONTRIBUTE more than you realize or give them credit – I must add it doesn’t say much for where you’ve been. You’ve either had your eyes shut or your heart needs adjusting – these people do all the things that those who look down on them won’t do, at any price – including the majority of young people,… who are lined up looking for potties, tents and free food while they scream and rant about Wall Street. They are the embarrassment in this country, their parents are most likely ashamed, if they aren’t they should be.


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