What does Occupy Wall Street want?

Some of the demands of the Occupy Wall Street protesters:

Demands posted in OWS’s name include a “guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment”; a $20-an-hour minimum wage (above the $16 entry wage the United Auto Workers just negotiated with GM); ending “the fossil fuel economy”; “open borders” so “anyone can travel anywhere to work and live”; $1 trillion for infrastructure; $1 trillion for “ecological restoration” (e.g., re-establishing “the natural flow of river systems”); “free college education.”

And forgiveness of “all debt on the entire planet period.”

via Can Occupy Wall Street give liberals a lift? – The Washington Post.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • SKPeterson

    Why only $20 an hour regardless of effort? Why not $100? Then no one would be poor, everyone would be employed in doing whatever they want whenever they want, and one could while away the hours in the university library for free. Just give everyone 10,000 minutes of free cell phone air time annually and recognize that a 4G, 2GB data plan is a basic human right. Problem solved.

  • SKPeterson

    Why only $20 an hour regardless of effort? Why not $100? Then no one would be poor, everyone would be employed in doing whatever they want whenever they want, and one could while away the hours in the university library for free. Just give everyone 10,000 minutes of free cell phone air time annually and recognize that a 4G, 2GB data plan is a basic human right. Problem solved.

  • helen

    $20.00 an hour and “open borders”!?
    I’m almost speechless… the Oklahoma land grab was nothing compared to that idea.

    They’ve missed one: the right to occupy all the spare houses of the super rich during the 11 months of the year they are someplace else. Dibbs on a mansion on the Northeast coast in autumn! ;)

  • helen

    $20.00 an hour and “open borders”!?
    I’m almost speechless… the Oklahoma land grab was nothing compared to that idea.

    They’ve missed one: the right to occupy all the spare houses of the super rich during the 11 months of the year they are someplace else. Dibbs on a mansion on the Northeast coast in autumn! ;)

  • Rose

    What does Occupy Wall Street want?
    A good guess might be…vocation.
    Meaningful work.
    Yet our educational system does not reward independence, entrepreneurship and taking risks. Capitalism is not explained.
    There’s a disconnect between the old school of credentialing by diploma and the new economy.
    The silver lining is that professors of women’s studies will not be in demand.

  • Rose

    What does Occupy Wall Street want?
    A good guess might be…vocation.
    Meaningful work.
    Yet our educational system does not reward independence, entrepreneurship and taking risks. Capitalism is not explained.
    There’s a disconnect between the old school of credentialing by diploma and the new economy.
    The silver lining is that professors of women’s studies will not be in demand.

  • Tom Hering

    The demands carefully selected by George F. Will to fabricate a representative list are meaningless, because no can say what OWS wants. Because OWS itself doesn’t know what it wants. Because OWS remains leaderless and unorganized. All anyone can really say is that the movement is composed of left-leaning types who are angry about the mess we’re all in. Or, rather, the mess 99% of us are in.

  • Tom Hering

    The demands carefully selected by George F. Will to fabricate a representative list are meaningless, because no can say what OWS wants. Because OWS itself doesn’t know what it wants. Because OWS remains leaderless and unorganized. All anyone can really say is that the movement is composed of left-leaning types who are angry about the mess we’re all in. Or, rather, the mess 99% of us are in.

  • Tom Hering

    I should have said “left-leaning people” not “left-leaning types.” Old habits from my conservative period (temporary insanity) are hard to break. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    I should have said “left-leaning people” not “left-leaning types.” Old habits from my conservative period (temporary insanity) are hard to break. :-D

  • Kirk

    I’m with Tom on this. I think that this is an awfully uncharitable view of what the movement as a whole wants because no one in the movement can agree on and articulate what it wants. For now, I think the general platitude is for reform of the influence that banks and other financial companies have on people’s lives. Doubtless, for some that’s radical economic reform like Will highlights. For others it might be protections against predatory lending, or campaign finance reform.

    This lack of cohesion is both a strength and a weakness of movement. On the one hand, it appeals to a broad swatch of liberals because they think that everyone is out protesting against whatever they, as individuals are protesting against. On the other hand, a leaderless, messageless movement is unlikely to actually accomplish anything.

    In other news, I’m really tired of populism. Can we stop now?

  • Kirk

    I’m with Tom on this. I think that this is an awfully uncharitable view of what the movement as a whole wants because no one in the movement can agree on and articulate what it wants. For now, I think the general platitude is for reform of the influence that banks and other financial companies have on people’s lives. Doubtless, for some that’s radical economic reform like Will highlights. For others it might be protections against predatory lending, or campaign finance reform.

    This lack of cohesion is both a strength and a weakness of movement. On the one hand, it appeals to a broad swatch of liberals because they think that everyone is out protesting against whatever they, as individuals are protesting against. On the other hand, a leaderless, messageless movement is unlikely to actually accomplish anything.

    In other news, I’m really tired of populism. Can we stop now?

  • WebMonk

    Mostly agreed with Tom here. Will’s article was sad. If there were a target where George Will was aiming, he would have nailed it and destroyed thoroughly, I’m sure. However, nothing was actually there. (other than whatever random person made the statement)

    The OWS protests started out tiny, with some focus, but since then it has picked up every sort of group out there, including some pretty conservative ones. Just about anyone who is upset with something should be able to find a representative of their issue in the OWS protests. I saw a picture of an abortion protester at one of the protests!

    It is a completely disorganized and scattered “movement”. Blasting the entirety of the OWS protests based on the views of random individuals is setting up a straw man, and nothing more.

    Heck, I can find Lutherans who believe our President was born in Africa and is a closet Muslim. Does that mean all Lutherans are idiots?

  • WebMonk

    Mostly agreed with Tom here. Will’s article was sad. If there were a target where George Will was aiming, he would have nailed it and destroyed thoroughly, I’m sure. However, nothing was actually there. (other than whatever random person made the statement)

    The OWS protests started out tiny, with some focus, but since then it has picked up every sort of group out there, including some pretty conservative ones. Just about anyone who is upset with something should be able to find a representative of their issue in the OWS protests. I saw a picture of an abortion protester at one of the protests!

    It is a completely disorganized and scattered “movement”. Blasting the entirety of the OWS protests based on the views of random individuals is setting up a straw man, and nothing more.

    Heck, I can find Lutherans who believe our President was born in Africa and is a closet Muslim. Does that mean all Lutherans are idiots?

  • Gary

    They can’t even agree on a hashtag (and then accuse Twitter of censorship when their movement isn’t trending), let alone agree on what they hope to accomplish.

  • Gary

    They can’t even agree on a hashtag (and then accuse Twitter of censorship when their movement isn’t trending), let alone agree on what they hope to accomplish.

  • michael henry

    Go to ANY video outside of MSM, any interview of OWS and you will hear “destroy”, “socialism” and all the echos of the 60′s. And it is not totally disorganized, but behind the scenes, barely, unions and the usual intellectual “elite” prod from the sidelines.
    As one site pointed out, the Tea Party pays for permits, waves American flags and calls for smaller government. OWS on the other hand has zero good to say about the very country whose freedoms allow them to trash it. One of the constant drumbeats is destroy America as we know it, to some socialist paradise.
    Compared to what the rest of the worlds protesters have to endure, OWS is pampered and idolized by nearly everyone. The criminal acts the entire “movement” has spawned is so large volumes of books will be published for years documenting them.
    This is how liberalism keeps going, in one sense, by the constant social upheaval, that only a few can see and fix.

  • michael henry

    Go to ANY video outside of MSM, any interview of OWS and you will hear “destroy”, “socialism” and all the echos of the 60′s. And it is not totally disorganized, but behind the scenes, barely, unions and the usual intellectual “elite” prod from the sidelines.
    As one site pointed out, the Tea Party pays for permits, waves American flags and calls for smaller government. OWS on the other hand has zero good to say about the very country whose freedoms allow them to trash it. One of the constant drumbeats is destroy America as we know it, to some socialist paradise.
    Compared to what the rest of the worlds protesters have to endure, OWS is pampered and idolized by nearly everyone. The criminal acts the entire “movement” has spawned is so large volumes of books will be published for years documenting them.
    This is how liberalism keeps going, in one sense, by the constant social upheaval, that only a few can see and fix.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Tom and Kirk said it. OWS is nothing more than a hodgepodge of malcontents.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Tom and Kirk said it. OWS is nothing more than a hodgepodge of malcontents.

  • Kirk

    @Michael

    They’ve been protesting across the street from my office for weeks. I hear a lot of anti-war, pro-environment and campaign finance reform rhetoric. I’ve heard very little about destruction, unless you consider the being of the United States intrinsically unbridled capitalism (if you do, you don’t know your history).

    And along with all the flags at Tea Party protests, there were also guns, depictions of Obama as Hitler, Jacobin rhetoric about the blood of tyrants and so on and so forth.

    I think you’re taking a particularly rosy view of people that you agree with and a particularly gloomy view of those you don’t.

  • Kirk

    @Michael

    They’ve been protesting across the street from my office for weeks. I hear a lot of anti-war, pro-environment and campaign finance reform rhetoric. I’ve heard very little about destruction, unless you consider the being of the United States intrinsically unbridled capitalism (if you do, you don’t know your history).

    And along with all the flags at Tea Party protests, there were also guns, depictions of Obama as Hitler, Jacobin rhetoric about the blood of tyrants and so on and so forth.

    I think you’re taking a particularly rosy view of people that you agree with and a particularly gloomy view of those you don’t.

  • Tom Hering

    “OWS is nothing more than …” – Mike Westfall @ 10.

    Mike, you’re making the same mistake George F. Will made, i.e., trying to boil OWS down to some simplistic definition that makes conservatives feel safe. Remember, this a movement that’s only one month old. But in that one month, it’s become a global movement, spreading to 82 countries – with demonstrations in more than 650 cities worldwide (including many in America’s heartland) on one day alone (Saturday Oct. 15). Hodgepodge? Absolutely. Malcontents? Only if you insist on viewing the world through conservative-colored glasses. These are justifiably angry people.

  • Tom Hering

    “OWS is nothing more than …” – Mike Westfall @ 10.

    Mike, you’re making the same mistake George F. Will made, i.e., trying to boil OWS down to some simplistic definition that makes conservatives feel safe. Remember, this a movement that’s only one month old. But in that one month, it’s become a global movement, spreading to 82 countries – with demonstrations in more than 650 cities worldwide (including many in America’s heartland) on one day alone (Saturday Oct. 15). Hodgepodge? Absolutely. Malcontents? Only if you insist on viewing the world through conservative-colored glasses. These are justifiably angry people.

  • Joe

    Tom – so what you are saying is they are organized enough to plan coordinated rallies/protests around the world but not organized enough to have settled goals?

    The list Will partially reproduced has been reproduced other places as well. It is not just the random list of a single person. It was a list put out by an organizer on a web-forum and it generated some debate among OWS members (some in favor and some against) but it is not unfair to say this represents the goals of some (may) of the OWS folks.

    But the best news re: OWS I have read so far is that there is an internal debate among organizers about whether and how to monetize the movement.

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/17/occulist-occupy-wall-street-organizer-planned-to-financially-commodify-the-revolution/

  • Joe

    Tom – so what you are saying is they are organized enough to plan coordinated rallies/protests around the world but not organized enough to have settled goals?

    The list Will partially reproduced has been reproduced other places as well. It is not just the random list of a single person. It was a list put out by an organizer on a web-forum and it generated some debate among OWS members (some in favor and some against) but it is not unfair to say this represents the goals of some (may) of the OWS folks.

    But the best news re: OWS I have read so far is that there is an internal debate among organizers about whether and how to monetize the movement.

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/17/occulist-occupy-wall-street-organizer-planned-to-financially-commodify-the-revolution/

  • Tom Hering

    Joe @ 13, while it’s fair to say the list represents some people involved in OWS, it’s still misleading to present the list as representative of OWS as a whole.

    “But the best news re: OWS I have read so far is that there is an internal debate among organizers about whether and how to monetize the movement.”

    Which shows just how deep runs the problem that OWS is confronting. The commodification of people.

  • Tom Hering

    Joe @ 13, while it’s fair to say the list represents some people involved in OWS, it’s still misleading to present the list as representative of OWS as a whole.

    “But the best news re: OWS I have read so far is that there is an internal debate among organizers about whether and how to monetize the movement.”

    Which shows just how deep runs the problem that OWS is confronting. The commodification of people.

  • Joe

    Tom – I can agree with you @14.

  • Joe

    Tom – I can agree with you @14.

  • DonS

    They don’t have enough stuff. They want other people’s stuff.

  • DonS

    They don’t have enough stuff. They want other people’s stuff.

  • steve

    In one of the most ironic stories I read, the OWS members were being fed by local soup kitchens. Soup kitchens. Set up to feed the real homeless, the real hungry, instead now feeding protesters. And what of the great donations of food and money they boast of, many by teachers associations and other unions? Where are these donations on a daily basis to those who really need the help? Those who actually know what they want but are, for whatever reason, either temporarily or permanently, unable to get what they want?

    These people want to get some kind of message out about the “poor and oppressed” of this country while they leach off the system that was set up to serve the poor and oppressed.

  • steve

    In one of the most ironic stories I read, the OWS members were being fed by local soup kitchens. Soup kitchens. Set up to feed the real homeless, the real hungry, instead now feeding protesters. And what of the great donations of food and money they boast of, many by teachers associations and other unions? Where are these donations on a daily basis to those who really need the help? Those who actually know what they want but are, for whatever reason, either temporarily or permanently, unable to get what they want?

    These people want to get some kind of message out about the “poor and oppressed” of this country while they leach off the system that was set up to serve the poor and oppressed.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #4, kirk, #6,

    I think you may have missed the point of the list. I suspect that it was not copiled to reveal the “agenda,” but to reveal the irrationality of the predominant majority. Guaranteed living wage? Regardless of employment? I think my children could probably figure out how well that would work. And like it or not, that is the message that I think (personal opinion) most people are getting from the footage and interviews that they are seeing. If this protest has a point, it is not being made.

    Tom, #14,

    ” Which shows just how deep runs the problem that OWS is confronting. The commodification of people.”

    I’m not following you. Help me understand this.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #4, kirk, #6,

    I think you may have missed the point of the list. I suspect that it was not copiled to reveal the “agenda,” but to reveal the irrationality of the predominant majority. Guaranteed living wage? Regardless of employment? I think my children could probably figure out how well that would work. And like it or not, that is the message that I think (personal opinion) most people are getting from the footage and interviews that they are seeing. If this protest has a point, it is not being made.

    Tom, #14,

    ” Which shows just how deep runs the problem that OWS is confronting. The commodification of people.”

    I’m not following you. Help me understand this.

  • Dan Kempin

    *compiled, of course, though “copiled” may in fact be more descriptive.

  • Dan Kempin

    *compiled, of course, though “copiled” may in fact be more descriptive.

  • Tom Hering

    Dan @ 18, some kind of point is being made, because in just one month, people all over the world and the United States have joined the movement. “The commodification of people” is just my short hand for big corporations, loyal to neither countries nor communities, getting richer and richer while their workers all over the world are – sooner or later but inevitably – told to fend for themselves in a world economy that’s becoming less and less “fendable” every day. If the Tea Party (which also started as a complaint against large forces of unfairness) was mostly older people wanting the past back, OWS is mostly young people afraid they don’t have a future. Listen, and you’ll hear it.

  • Tom Hering

    Dan @ 18, some kind of point is being made, because in just one month, people all over the world and the United States have joined the movement. “The commodification of people” is just my short hand for big corporations, loyal to neither countries nor communities, getting richer and richer while their workers all over the world are – sooner or later but inevitably – told to fend for themselves in a world economy that’s becoming less and less “fendable” every day. If the Tea Party (which also started as a complaint against large forces of unfairness) was mostly older people wanting the past back, OWS is mostly young people afraid they don’t have a future. Listen, and you’ll hear it.

  • mendicus

    Okay, lemme get this straight. George Will attempts to characterize the OWS movement using irrational quotes from OWS folks. Then Tom et. al. defend OWS from this “uncharitable” depiction. So far, so good. But the defense is not that the list has misrepresented the goals of OWS as being irrational when they are actually quite rational, but that the list has misrepresented the goals as being irrational when they actually don’t exist at all. So rather than the goals being irrational, it’s the movement that’s irrational. It’s a collective temper tantrum that we are, for some reason, supposed to respect and take seriously. That is, in effect, your defense.

    Sigh.

  • mendicus

    Okay, lemme get this straight. George Will attempts to characterize the OWS movement using irrational quotes from OWS folks. Then Tom et. al. defend OWS from this “uncharitable” depiction. So far, so good. But the defense is not that the list has misrepresented the goals of OWS as being irrational when they are actually quite rational, but that the list has misrepresented the goals as being irrational when they actually don’t exist at all. So rather than the goals being irrational, it’s the movement that’s irrational. It’s a collective temper tantrum that we are, for some reason, supposed to respect and take seriously. That is, in effect, your defense.

    Sigh.

  • Tom Hering

    It’s all about pie. When the average guy is getting a piece, he doesn’t care how big a piece the rich guy is getting. But when he’s not getting a piece, he starts to care that the rich guy has most of the pie on his plate. And if enough people aren’t getting a piece – tipping point – it results in an angry movement, with that anger being expressed in as many different ways as there are angry people. Doesn’t matter if it adds up to an “irrational temper tantrum.” Revolutions (including the American Revolution) run on emotions.

  • Tom Hering

    It’s all about pie. When the average guy is getting a piece, he doesn’t care how big a piece the rich guy is getting. But when he’s not getting a piece, he starts to care that the rich guy has most of the pie on his plate. And if enough people aren’t getting a piece – tipping point – it results in an angry movement, with that anger being expressed in as many different ways as there are angry people. Doesn’t matter if it adds up to an “irrational temper tantrum.” Revolutions (including the American Revolution) run on emotions.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #20,

    I agree that there is something I am just not “getting” about this, or not “hearing” in the words of the protestors. That’s why I’m asking you to help me understand.

    If you want to make a case against corporations, I am willing to listen. I understand that a monopoly is unfair to competitors and against the interest of the consumer, and I am sure I would agree that there are de facto monopolies created by the corporate model. How many mom and pop drug stores to you see any more? You don’t. They can’t compete against the pooled resources of a corporation. Fine. We could have a long and productive debate, I am sure.

    I’m not sure it follows, though, that “corporations” are the problem. Corporations are merely a way of doing business. And they have owners who are real people. True, companies may be run by the rich, or those who are gifted enough to run a successful company may be made rich, but they are heavily owned by the middle class through stocks and mutual funds and retirement plans. So I don’t follow the logic here. Angry at “corporations” doesn’t make any sense to me. They are just businesses. And corporations fail all the time. Hurt the companies and you hurt the middle class a lot more than you hurt the rich.

    Or at least I would rather be mistreated by a an overgrown corporation than by an overgrown government. A corporation can, perhaps, bilk you out of your money, but they cannot force their will on you at the point of a sword.

    Then again, if the argument is just that people are being “commodified,” life is not fair, people have screwed things up, and I’m afraid for my future, well, ok. That I can understand. Let the youth rage against these things, if they think it will make a difference, but would you make the serious argument that this is really new? Or that it is purely because banks and businesses control the capital?

    So no, I guess I still really don’t get it.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #20,

    I agree that there is something I am just not “getting” about this, or not “hearing” in the words of the protestors. That’s why I’m asking you to help me understand.

    If you want to make a case against corporations, I am willing to listen. I understand that a monopoly is unfair to competitors and against the interest of the consumer, and I am sure I would agree that there are de facto monopolies created by the corporate model. How many mom and pop drug stores to you see any more? You don’t. They can’t compete against the pooled resources of a corporation. Fine. We could have a long and productive debate, I am sure.

    I’m not sure it follows, though, that “corporations” are the problem. Corporations are merely a way of doing business. And they have owners who are real people. True, companies may be run by the rich, or those who are gifted enough to run a successful company may be made rich, but they are heavily owned by the middle class through stocks and mutual funds and retirement plans. So I don’t follow the logic here. Angry at “corporations” doesn’t make any sense to me. They are just businesses. And corporations fail all the time. Hurt the companies and you hurt the middle class a lot more than you hurt the rich.

    Or at least I would rather be mistreated by a an overgrown corporation than by an overgrown government. A corporation can, perhaps, bilk you out of your money, but they cannot force their will on you at the point of a sword.

    Then again, if the argument is just that people are being “commodified,” life is not fair, people have screwed things up, and I’m afraid for my future, well, ok. That I can understand. Let the youth rage against these things, if they think it will make a difference, but would you make the serious argument that this is really new? Or that it is purely because banks and businesses control the capital?

    So no, I guess I still really don’t get it.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #22,

    “Revolutions (including the American Revolution) run on emotions.”

    Ah. I see. This is not a protest, but an attempt at revolution.

    “And if enough people aren’t getting a piece – tipping point – it results in an angry movement,”

    Yet the “protestors” are clearly well fed, with i-phones and computers and college degrees.

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #22,

    “Revolutions (including the American Revolution) run on emotions.”

    Ah. I see. This is not a protest, but an attempt at revolution.

    “And if enough people aren’t getting a piece – tipping point – it results in an angry movement,”

    Yet the “protestors” are clearly well fed, with i-phones and computers and college degrees.

  • DonS

    The option of making more pie, rather than just taking some of someone else’s piece, should be more strongly considered.

    Now, if we have to enact changes in our economy to make it more productive, such as reforming our tax code to reward producers, and reducing regulation to make it easier to make pie, then let’s do that.

  • DonS

    The option of making more pie, rather than just taking some of someone else’s piece, should be more strongly considered.

    Now, if we have to enact changes in our economy to make it more productive, such as reforming our tax code to reward producers, and reducing regulation to make it easier to make pie, then let’s do that.

  • Tom Hering

    Well, if the real point here is to show how irrational and hypocritical and self-contradictory the OWS protesters are, I concede the point. You’re just describing people in general. Now, maybe we can discuss aspects of OWS that are actually interesting.

  • Tom Hering

    Well, if the real point here is to show how irrational and hypocritical and self-contradictory the OWS protesters are, I concede the point. You’re just describing people in general. Now, maybe we can discuss aspects of OWS that are actually interesting.

  • Joe

    Tom, you (or perhaps the protesters) are starting from the belief they are entitled to the pie that is on my plate.

  • Joe

    Tom, you (or perhaps the protesters) are starting from the belief they are entitled to the pie that is on my plate.

  • Mike

    “Tom, you (or perhaps the protesters) are starting from the belief they are entitled to the pie that is on my plate.”

    Yes!

  • Mike

    “Tom, you (or perhaps the protesters) are starting from the belief they are entitled to the pie that is on my plate.”

    Yes!

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #26,

    Are you responding to me?

    If so, it was not my point to call the protest “hypocritical,” though I must admit that much of the discourse I have heard has been irrational. Well, immature is probably a better description, if I can get away with saying I don’t mean it as an insult. It takes no genius to identify problems. Solutions are of much more use.

    So what are the aspects that you find interesting? I confess, (again, just in the spirit of honesty and not as a barb), this protest has seemed very mundane and uninteresting to me. What is it that I am missing?

    No, that’s not fair. I’m not expecting you to defend or explain the protest. What is it about this that YOU find interesting? Why do I feel so blind here, like I don’t get what all the coverage is about? Help me out!

  • Dan Kempin

    Tom, #26,

    Are you responding to me?

    If so, it was not my point to call the protest “hypocritical,” though I must admit that much of the discourse I have heard has been irrational. Well, immature is probably a better description, if I can get away with saying I don’t mean it as an insult. It takes no genius to identify problems. Solutions are of much more use.

    So what are the aspects that you find interesting? I confess, (again, just in the spirit of honesty and not as a barb), this protest has seemed very mundane and uninteresting to me. What is it that I am missing?

    No, that’s not fair. I’m not expecting you to defend or explain the protest. What is it about this that YOU find interesting? Why do I feel so blind here, like I don’t get what all the coverage is about? Help me out!

  • Tom Hering

    Joe @ 27, is the pie you’ve got on your plate the whole pie – the one and only pie for the whole United States? Because that’s the pie I was talking about.

    Dan @ 29, no, I wasn’t responding to you in particular. And if you don’t find the protests interesting, then you don’t find them interesting. Not sure what more I can say to change that for you. Maybe you could read more reporting online – from a variety of sources. That’s usually an interesting process.

  • Tom Hering

    Joe @ 27, is the pie you’ve got on your plate the whole pie – the one and only pie for the whole United States? Because that’s the pie I was talking about.

    Dan @ 29, no, I wasn’t responding to you in particular. And if you don’t find the protests interesting, then you don’t find them interesting. Not sure what more I can say to change that for you. Maybe you could read more reporting online – from a variety of sources. That’s usually an interesting process.

  • steve

    Tom, #22,

    That’s only assuming wealth is a zero sum game. As someone else said, if you don’t have a piece of the pie then make your own pie. All of these people are whining about there not being enough jobs while immigrants the next block over are driving taxis or cleaning rooms or buying falafal carts and making their own pies. People come to this country every day with little money and no English and they’re making pies.

    That’s America. The land of many pies.

  • steve

    Tom, #22,

    That’s only assuming wealth is a zero sum game. As someone else said, if you don’t have a piece of the pie then make your own pie. All of these people are whining about there not being enough jobs while immigrants the next block over are driving taxis or cleaning rooms or buying falafal carts and making their own pies. People come to this country every day with little money and no English and they’re making pies.

    That’s America. The land of many pies.

  • Joe

    Tom – the US doesn’t own a collective pie. There are many pies and there is the ability to make more pies.

  • Joe

    Tom – the US doesn’t own a collective pie. There are many pies and there is the ability to make more pies.

  • Grace

    SOCIALISM – OCCUPY whatever you choose!

    What’s mine, should be shared by everyone. So that means:

    The extra bedroom in our home should be given to anyone who wants to live here, who doesn’t like where they live.

    Those who trudge through our home can use our kitchen, help themselves to whatever they can find, including food, clothing…. maybe even demanding they can ‘use our cars, after all we should share what we have.

    If they run out of funds, they can demand we write a check to cover their spending habits.

    Demand the use of our home office and our computers and library, that’s if they can actually read, beyond the 8th grade, never mind comprehend what hides behind the pages.

    Demand that they can use our dinning room when inviting all their pals over.

    Demand the use of our televisions.

    It’s that scary ‘OCCUPY’ club, trudging down our streets, choosing what homes, cars, are best suited to their new found demands.

    Front page on Drudge: “CLASS WARS” AWWWWW, there must be a home they can clean, or a lawn they could mow, or maybe a burger to flip, or even a job delivering pizza? :lol: the ‘OCCUPY’ tent class’ of the 11′s, reminds me of all the photos of the 60′s!

    http://www.drudgereport.com/

  • Grace

    SOCIALISM – OCCUPY whatever you choose!

    What’s mine, should be shared by everyone. So that means:

    The extra bedroom in our home should be given to anyone who wants to live here, who doesn’t like where they live.

    Those who trudge through our home can use our kitchen, help themselves to whatever they can find, including food, clothing…. maybe even demanding they can ‘use our cars, after all we should share what we have.

    If they run out of funds, they can demand we write a check to cover their spending habits.

    Demand the use of our home office and our computers and library, that’s if they can actually read, beyond the 8th grade, never mind comprehend what hides behind the pages.

    Demand that they can use our dinning room when inviting all their pals over.

    Demand the use of our televisions.

    It’s that scary ‘OCCUPY’ club, trudging down our streets, choosing what homes, cars, are best suited to their new found demands.

    Front page on Drudge: “CLASS WARS” AWWWWW, there must be a home they can clean, or a lawn they could mow, or maybe a burger to flip, or even a job delivering pizza? :lol: the ‘OCCUPY’ tent class’ of the 11′s, reminds me of all the photos of the 60′s!

    http://www.drudgereport.com/

  • Bob

    In an argument, the first one to mention Hitler — or the Drudge Report — loses.
    :)

  • Bob

    In an argument, the first one to mention Hitler — or the Drudge Report — loses.
    :)

  • steve

    Bob, by your own argument, you just lost.

  • steve

    Bob, by your own argument, you just lost.

  • Grace

    Isn’t this clever?

    We were moving into another home about 10 years ago. We had been referred to a moving company by some of my husbands clients. I called and made plans, etc, to hire them for the move. I asked just as we were in the midst of moving who the people were that take these sorts of jobs. The answer I got was “they are mostly ex-cons” – needless to say, I watched every single person, and the one who packed. Here we keep our children away from those who could harm them, we lock our doors, put alarms in our homes, and then hire a moving company who employs the very people we lock out of our homes.

    A side note here: the house we had moved from previously….. I had stayed in our master bedroom through most of the move, our valuables were all awaiting my husband taking them to the car, along with important papers, etc. One of the guys used to move (there were three) came back to our bedroom once, and I re-directed him to the rest of the house, telling him this room was the very last to be moved. He came back a second to find me still there, and then a third – at which time I warned him that IF he came back again, without being given the go-ahead, I was going to speak to the lead, for help. He finally got-it.

    SF plan would offer tax break for hiring felons

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/17/BAT31LISSG.DTL#ixzz1bAFZo2s4

    Why would anyone hire a felon if they can get someone who honestly needs a job, one who has not committed a crime?

    TAX BREAKS? -

  • Grace

    Isn’t this clever?

    We were moving into another home about 10 years ago. We had been referred to a moving company by some of my husbands clients. I called and made plans, etc, to hire them for the move. I asked just as we were in the midst of moving who the people were that take these sorts of jobs. The answer I got was “they are mostly ex-cons” – needless to say, I watched every single person, and the one who packed. Here we keep our children away from those who could harm them, we lock our doors, put alarms in our homes, and then hire a moving company who employs the very people we lock out of our homes.

    A side note here: the house we had moved from previously….. I had stayed in our master bedroom through most of the move, our valuables were all awaiting my husband taking them to the car, along with important papers, etc. One of the guys used to move (there were three) came back to our bedroom once, and I re-directed him to the rest of the house, telling him this room was the very last to be moved. He came back a second to find me still there, and then a third – at which time I warned him that IF he came back again, without being given the go-ahead, I was going to speak to the lead, for help. He finally got-it.

    SF plan would offer tax break for hiring felons

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/17/BAT31LISSG.DTL#ixzz1bAFZo2s4

    Why would anyone hire a felon if they can get someone who honestly needs a job, one who has not committed a crime?

    TAX BREAKS? -

  • Tom Hering

    steve @ 31 and Joe @ 32, are you being deliberately thick-headed when it comes to the subject of pie – at least the one I pulled out of the oven?

  • Tom Hering

    steve @ 31 and Joe @ 32, are you being deliberately thick-headed when it comes to the subject of pie – at least the one I pulled out of the oven?

  • Tom Hering

    So, Grace, is your argument that these people ought to go out and find jobs – any jobs – but not any job you’re offering in your home? (Here’s goes the whole thread, right down the crapper. :-D )

  • Tom Hering

    So, Grace, is your argument that these people ought to go out and find jobs – any jobs – but not any job you’re offering in your home? (Here’s goes the whole thread, right down the crapper. :-D )

  • Joe

    No Tom I’m not. The bankers do not control all of the ingredients. They may have misused some of them, but we are not forbidden by their failures to make our own pie.

    Wealth is not a zero sum game and despite what we want to think, Wall Street has not rigged it so that we can’t still create wealth.

  • Joe

    No Tom I’m not. The bankers do not control all of the ingredients. They may have misused some of them, but we are not forbidden by their failures to make our own pie.

    Wealth is not a zero sum game and despite what we want to think, Wall Street has not rigged it so that we can’t still create wealth.

  • Grace

    Tom @38

    Go sit on the ‘naughty chair’ for at least an hour, and then mow the lawn, empty the dishwasher and, see if you can behave yourself this evening! :lol: BAD Tom!

  • Grace

    Tom @38

    Go sit on the ‘naughty chair’ for at least an hour, and then mow the lawn, empty the dishwasher and, see if you can behave yourself this evening! :lol: BAD Tom!

  • Grace

    Exceptional piece by Krauthammer:

    The Washington Post

    By Charles Krauthammer, Published: October 13

    “In Obama’s telling, it’s the refusal of the rich to “pay their fair share” that jeopardizes Medicare. If millionaires don’t pony up, schools will crumble. Oil-drilling tax breaks are costing teachers their jobs. Corporate loopholes will gut medical research.”

    __another excerpt

    These indignant indolents saddled with their $50,000 student loans and English degrees have decided that their lack of gainful employment is rooted in the malice of the millionaires on whose homes they are now marching — to the applause of Democrats suffering acute Tea Party envy and now salivating at the energy these big-government anarchists will presumably give their cause.

    Except that the real Tea Party actually had a program — less government, less regulation, less taxation, less debt. What’s the Occupy Wall Street program? Eat the rich.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-scapegoat-strategy/2011/10/13/gIQArNWViL_story.html

  • Grace

    Exceptional piece by Krauthammer:

    The Washington Post

    By Charles Krauthammer, Published: October 13

    “In Obama’s telling, it’s the refusal of the rich to “pay their fair share” that jeopardizes Medicare. If millionaires don’t pony up, schools will crumble. Oil-drilling tax breaks are costing teachers their jobs. Corporate loopholes will gut medical research.”

    __another excerpt

    These indignant indolents saddled with their $50,000 student loans and English degrees have decided that their lack of gainful employment is rooted in the malice of the millionaires on whose homes they are now marching — to the applause of Democrats suffering acute Tea Party envy and now salivating at the energy these big-government anarchists will presumably give their cause.

    Except that the real Tea Party actually had a program — less government, less regulation, less taxation, less debt. What’s the Occupy Wall Street program? Eat the rich.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-scapegoat-strategy/2011/10/13/gIQArNWViL_story.html

  • Grace

    The name of Charles Krauthammer’s which I failed to post is:

    The scapegoat strategy

  • Grace

    The name of Charles Krauthammer’s which I failed to post is:

    The scapegoat strategy

  • steve

    Tom, #37

    I don’t think I’m being thick-headed. I’m trying to point out that wealth (pie) is not a zero sum game. There is no such thing as peak prosperity. There is no single pie out of which all prosperity is cut. If there was, we would have run out a long time ago. That doesn’t mean people can’t build their wealth on the backs of others or that they can’t build their wealth at the expense of others. That happens all the time and it’s wrong. But to say that someone else has a bigger piece of the pie than I do and I deserve a bigger piece than I have is to completely misunderstand, and underestimate, our economic system.

  • steve

    Tom, #37

    I don’t think I’m being thick-headed. I’m trying to point out that wealth (pie) is not a zero sum game. There is no such thing as peak prosperity. There is no single pie out of which all prosperity is cut. If there was, we would have run out a long time ago. That doesn’t mean people can’t build their wealth on the backs of others or that they can’t build their wealth at the expense of others. That happens all the time and it’s wrong. But to say that someone else has a bigger piece of the pie than I do and I deserve a bigger piece than I have is to completely misunderstand, and underestimate, our economic system.

  • Tom Hering

    So, as I understand it, the basic conservative argument is: unless you’ve worked your way up from nothing, with no help from anyone, you’ve got no right to be angry about anything. (I’m tossing this out to anyone who wants it.)

  • Tom Hering

    So, as I understand it, the basic conservative argument is: unless you’ve worked your way up from nothing, with no help from anyone, you’ve got no right to be angry about anything. (I’m tossing this out to anyone who wants it.)

  • steve

    Tom, #44,

    I don’t see how that applies to the conversation and, unless I missed something, doesn’t even apply to the demands of OWS, to the extent there are any.

    People have valid concerns about big business bailouts (interesting that OWS only focuses on banks and not car manufacturers, but okay). People have valid concerns about market manipulations. People DON’T have a valid concern about so-and-so making more money than others as long as so-and-so made his or her money legally. We can argue about which components of the current system should and should not be legal but we shouldn’t gripe when someone succeeds in that system. And if you want to create a system where “everyone succeeds” then I’m going to tell you to wake up.

  • steve

    Tom, #44,

    I don’t see how that applies to the conversation and, unless I missed something, doesn’t even apply to the demands of OWS, to the extent there are any.

    People have valid concerns about big business bailouts (interesting that OWS only focuses on banks and not car manufacturers, but okay). People have valid concerns about market manipulations. People DON’T have a valid concern about so-and-so making more money than others as long as so-and-so made his or her money legally. We can argue about which components of the current system should and should not be legal but we shouldn’t gripe when someone succeeds in that system. And if you want to create a system where “everyone succeeds” then I’m going to tell you to wake up.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    The point being, DO NOT EXPECT SOMETHING YOU HAVEN’T WORKED FOR!

    Most people haven’t had a lot of help, …. that is unless you want to count all the young people who have taken out ‘student loans, which they haven’t paid back, even though they are working. These same young people want all the things their parents had to wait for, but it’s all ASAP – a long list after college, including a new car, trips to Hawaii and Europe, you name it, they ask for it. Oh, did I forget to mention a top job, making top money. When it doesn’t happen they can’t understand why.

    The WHY part comes about because they aren’t willing to start from the bottom at an entry level position, they want mangement, a job that includes all the perks that others have who are twice their age – have put in the time, learned the business and have all the experience the young wanna’be’s lack!

    Watching all the young people screaming “OCCUPY” is nothing but a bunch of spoiled brats –

    We had one in our family about 6 years ago, who decided he wanted to attend Harvard,…. he didn’t have the grades, but his father proudly stated his plans, no matter how immature and impossible. Yes he’s in college, a state college which will take almost anyone. This is a typical attitude of the majority today. Because of the college he is attending his education isn’t costing very much at all.

    There are those in our family who have worked HARD, including jobs, and attended top schools including Harvard, … but they deserved to go.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    The point being, DO NOT EXPECT SOMETHING YOU HAVEN’T WORKED FOR!

    Most people haven’t had a lot of help, …. that is unless you want to count all the young people who have taken out ‘student loans, which they haven’t paid back, even though they are working. These same young people want all the things their parents had to wait for, but it’s all ASAP – a long list after college, including a new car, trips to Hawaii and Europe, you name it, they ask for it. Oh, did I forget to mention a top job, making top money. When it doesn’t happen they can’t understand why.

    The WHY part comes about because they aren’t willing to start from the bottom at an entry level position, they want mangement, a job that includes all the perks that others have who are twice their age – have put in the time, learned the business and have all the experience the young wanna’be’s lack!

    Watching all the young people screaming “OCCUPY” is nothing but a bunch of spoiled brats –

    We had one in our family about 6 years ago, who decided he wanted to attend Harvard,…. he didn’t have the grades, but his father proudly stated his plans, no matter how immature and impossible. Yes he’s in college, a state college which will take almost anyone. This is a typical attitude of the majority today. Because of the college he is attending his education isn’t costing very much at all.

    There are those in our family who have worked HARD, including jobs, and attended top schools including Harvard, … but they deserved to go.

  • Tom Hering

    “Tom, #44, I don’t see how that applies to the conversation … unless I missed something …”

    Steve, how did you manage to miss your own comments?

    @ 17: “These people want to get some kind of message out about the ‘poor and oppressed’ of this country while they leach off the system …”

    @ 31: “All of these people are whining about there not being enough jobs …”

  • Tom Hering

    “Tom, #44, I don’t see how that applies to the conversation … unless I missed something …”

    Steve, how did you manage to miss your own comments?

    @ 17: “These people want to get some kind of message out about the ‘poor and oppressed’ of this country while they leach off the system …”

    @ 31: “All of these people are whining about there not being enough jobs …”

  • steve

    Tom, that’s a huge mischaracterization of my arguments. You could at least quote them in the entire context. Even then, these statements have nothing to do with your statement @ 44. Nothing.

  • steve

    Tom, that’s a huge mischaracterization of my arguments. You could at least quote them in the entire context. Even then, these statements have nothing to do with your statement @ 44. Nothing.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    And a Ferarri and a billion bucks in small denominations. Oh, heck, while we’re at it throw in a few gorgeous babes for arm candy and free plastic surgery for all the rest. Oh, and a modest 200,000 sq. foot villa overlooking Monterey Bay. And a jet. And…

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    And a Ferarri and a billion bucks in small denominations. Oh, heck, while we’re at it throw in a few gorgeous babes for arm candy and free plastic surgery for all the rest. Oh, and a modest 200,000 sq. foot villa overlooking Monterey Bay. And a jet. And…

  • steve

    I drove by one of these events as people were shouting their slogans. I believe it went something like, “Hell no, we don’t know! Hell no, we don’t know!”

  • steve

    I drove by one of these events as people were shouting their slogans. I believe it went something like, “Hell no, we don’t know! Hell no, we don’t know!”

  • Grace

    The squawking squatters, could find empoloyement IF they were willing to be trained. The article below proves there are jobs, but no one to fill them.

    It’s not all about going to college. Tell that to the kids or their parents who do anything to pretend their child can get a degree, no matter how they squeeze them into the doors of college.

    600,000 manufacturing jobs unfilled

    Washington Business Journal by Jeff Clabaugh, Broadcast/Web Reporter
    Date: Monday, October 17, 2011,

    U.S. manufacturing companies have as many as 600,000 jobs that they cannot find workers with the proper skills to fill, according to a survey by Deloitte and the Manufacturing Institute.

    __________________Another excerpt

    “These unfilled jobs are mainly in the skilled production category — positions such as machinists, operators, craft workers, distributors and technicians,” said Emily DeRocco, president of the Manufacturing Institute, part of the National Association of Manufacturers in Washington.”

    http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2011/10/17/600000-manufacturing-jobs-unfilled.html

  • Grace

    The squawking squatters, could find empoloyement IF they were willing to be trained. The article below proves there are jobs, but no one to fill them.

    It’s not all about going to college. Tell that to the kids or their parents who do anything to pretend their child can get a degree, no matter how they squeeze them into the doors of college.

    600,000 manufacturing jobs unfilled

    Washington Business Journal by Jeff Clabaugh, Broadcast/Web Reporter
    Date: Monday, October 17, 2011,

    U.S. manufacturing companies have as many as 600,000 jobs that they cannot find workers with the proper skills to fill, according to a survey by Deloitte and the Manufacturing Institute.

    __________________Another excerpt

    “These unfilled jobs are mainly in the skilled production category — positions such as machinists, operators, craft workers, distributors and technicians,” said Emily DeRocco, president of the Manufacturing Institute, part of the National Association of Manufacturers in Washington.”

    http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2011/10/17/600000-manufacturing-jobs-unfilled.html

  • Tom Hering

    Manufacturing has been outsourced for a long time. Now we’re surprised we can’t find enough Americans who chose to get an education in manufacturing skills. Sheesh. Do we even have that many vocational schools teaching these skills anymore?

  • Tom Hering

    Manufacturing has been outsourced for a long time. Now we’re surprised we can’t find enough Americans who chose to get an education in manufacturing skills. Sheesh. Do we even have that many vocational schools teaching these skills anymore?

  • Grace

    Tom,

    The jobs are there, they always have been. The problem is, young people do not want to go to ‘trade schools – instead they are told to go to college, and get an ‘education… In many cases they are not college material, they cannot compete for the positions they dream about. When it all falls apart, they complain about ‘no jobs.

    Some of the positions would require one to be an apprentice However, young people don’t want to be a beginner and a learner – they want a managerial position directing others. Everyone has told them they BE whatever they want to be, achieve whatever they reach for – it’s just not true.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    The jobs are there, they always have been. The problem is, young people do not want to go to ‘trade schools – instead they are told to go to college, and get an ‘education… In many cases they are not college material, they cannot compete for the positions they dream about. When it all falls apart, they complain about ‘no jobs.

    Some of the positions would require one to be an apprentice However, young people don’t want to be a beginner and a learner – they want a managerial position directing others. Everyone has told them they BE whatever they want to be, achieve whatever they reach for – it’s just not true.

  • Grace

    53 should be:

    “Everyone has told them they CAN BE whatever they want to be, achieve whatever they reach for – it’s just not true.”

  • Grace

    53 should be:

    “Everyone has told them they CAN BE whatever they want to be, achieve whatever they reach for – it’s just not true.”

  • Tom Hering

    But Grace, I thought that was the great promise of America. Now your telling me it’s all bunk?

    Actually, I agree with your analysis. Except for the “jobs are there” part. How many good entry positions are out there for high school graduates? Like there used to be? The problem isn’t just that too many people are going to college. It’s that too many positions these days ridiculously require a college degree.

  • Tom Hering

    But Grace, I thought that was the great promise of America. Now your telling me it’s all bunk?

    Actually, I agree with your analysis. Except for the “jobs are there” part. How many good entry positions are out there for high school graduates? Like there used to be? The problem isn’t just that too many people are going to college. It’s that too many positions these days ridiculously require a college degree.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    There are positions for H.S. grads – the problem is, they don’t want them. What their looking for is a job way above an entry level position – plus, they have no intention of attending a community college which offers classes, that would provide a so called ‘blue collar job, they don’t have a skill – thus they don’t have a job.

    People still hire painters, plumbers, restaurant workers etc. The deal is, they have to start at the bottom, and learn the business.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    There are positions for H.S. grads – the problem is, they don’t want them. What their looking for is a job way above an entry level position – plus, they have no intention of attending a community college which offers classes, that would provide a so called ‘blue collar job, they don’t have a skill – thus they don’t have a job.

    People still hire painters, plumbers, restaurant workers etc. The deal is, they have to start at the bottom, and learn the business.

  • Tom Hering

    Is there a shortage of painters and plumbers? Not that I’m aware of. So plenty of people are taking up those occupations. What, then, accounts for the unemployment rate? 14 million people who refuse to take anything less than a management position? Really?

  • Tom Hering

    Is there a shortage of painters and plumbers? Not that I’m aware of. So plenty of people are taking up those occupations. What, then, accounts for the unemployment rate? 14 million people who refuse to take anything less than a management position? Really?

  • Grace

    Tom,

    Those from south of the border are eager to accept jobs such as painting, be it the interior or exterior of a home or building, help lay tile, etc, our young people don’t want those jobs, or anything like them. The people who have taken these jobs are able to save for a home, AND send back home to help their families.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    Those from south of the border are eager to accept jobs such as painting, be it the interior or exterior of a home or building, help lay tile, etc, our young people don’t want those jobs, or anything like them. The people who have taken these jobs are able to save for a home, AND send back home to help their families.

  • Grace

    My OB/GYN and his son who joined him just a few years ago, just hired two new people – one of them is his new assistant, who went to a community college and received training to get the job. The other young girl is front office, doing all the schedules, paying bills, etc.

    There are night courses anyone can take, in many fields for a good job.

  • Grace

    My OB/GYN and his son who joined him just a few years ago, just hired two new people – one of them is his new assistant, who went to a community college and received training to get the job. The other young girl is front office, doing all the schedules, paying bills, etc.

    There are night courses anyone can take, in many fields for a good job.


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