Child abuse, firings, and riots at Penn State

In the aftermath of the child sexual abuse perpetrated by football coach Jerry Sandusky, Penn State fired both legendary head coach Joe Paterno AND the college president Graham Spanier.  Whereupon students went on a riot:

Happy Valley was in bedlam early today as angry, chanting students ran amok in a bizarre climax to an unforgettable day that ended with the unthinkable: the firing of football legend Joe Paterno.

Chanting “Joe Pa-ter-no!” and “One More Game!” students raced to the stately Old Main administration building to express their anger that the winningest coach in major-college football history was out – fallout from the child-sex scandal involving his former top assistant, Jerry Sandusky.

More than 1,000 students rioted and rallied at Old Main and on frat-house-lined Beaver Avenue. Riot cops, fire trucks and ambulances were on hand after midnight, amid reports that tear gas was being used to disperse the crowd.

Demonstrators overturned a TV news van, toppled street lights, shook stop signs and threw toilet paper. From rooftops and in the streets, they yelled “F— Sandusky!” and “We Want JoePa!”

The campus chaos began shortly after 10 p.m. with the announcement by the board of trustees that Paterno, 84, who had said earlier in the day that he would retire at the end of the season, was instead fired over the phone and denied a chance to end his career on the playing field.

The trustees also accepted a letter of resignation from longtime president Graham Spanier, who was making $800,000 a year at the end of a 16-year run in which he’d raised the academic profile of the state’s largest academic institution.

As for reports of campus unrest at Paterno’s ouster, John Surma, vice chairman of the board of trustees, said he hoped everyone would realize that the board’s action was for the best: “Because of the difficulties that engulfed our university – and they are grave – it was necessary to make a change in leadership.”

It was the shock-and-awe conclusion to a day of bombshells that made Penn State’s hometown feel less like a bucolic mountainside oasis of pigskin-flavored academia and more like a foreign capital in the throes of revolution.

via Bedlam erupts on Penn State campus | Philadelphia Daily News | 11/10/2011.

From this news report, it appears that some of the students were rioting in support of Paterno, while others may have been rioting over the sexual abuse.  So people with opposite causes were rioting together.  How monstrous this all is.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • fws

    Churches act similarly. The institution must be saved at all cost.
    So someone needs to be sacrificed.

    Not much talk about the victims involved in the heterosexual child molestations that started this all off eh?

  • fws

    Churches act similarly. The institution must be saved at all cost.
    So someone needs to be sacrificed.

    Not much talk about the victims involved in the heterosexual child molestations that started this all off eh?

  • rlewer

    Heterosexual?

    Maybe some groups just like to riot.

  • rlewer

    Heterosexual?

    Maybe some groups just like to riot.

  • fws

    rlewer @ 2

    yeah heterosexual. men who prey on pre-pubescent boys are all heterosexual and are usually married. Prepubescent boys have the physical characteristics that attract them. Of course more is involved than that.

    Homosexual men would not be interested until boys have passed through puberty and start to develop facial and body hair and a deeper voice and definatively masculine characteristics.

    My understanding is that the penn state pederast homed in on prepubescent boys.

  • fws

    rlewer @ 2

    yeah heterosexual. men who prey on pre-pubescent boys are all heterosexual and are usually married. Prepubescent boys have the physical characteristics that attract them. Of course more is involved than that.

    Homosexual men would not be interested until boys have passed through puberty and start to develop facial and body hair and a deeper voice and definatively masculine characteristics.

    My understanding is that the penn state pederast homed in on prepubescent boys.

  • Carl Vehse

    With Penn State’s $1.59B endowment fund, you can bet the lawyers will be feeding on the university carcass in the court system for a long time, especially after the firing of the university’s president and Joe Paterno.

    One sponsor has already bailed on Penn State. Others will likely follow; even the Big Ten sponsors may be getting nervous.

    In addition to indications of a cover-up at Penn State, which is still being investigated, there are other major questions being raised:

    1. What did other universities in the Big Ten and elsewhere know and when did they know it, especially after Paterno’s heir-apparent resigned in 1999?
    2. When Sandusky was offered a coaching job at UVA in 2000, did Penn State warn the school?
    3. Why didn’t District Attorney Ray Gricar prosecute Sandusky after investigating a 1998 incident where Sandusky was showering with an 11-year-old boy?
    4. In addition to his pedophile activities, did Sandusky pimp out the boys to other pedophiles, including rich university donors with union or political influence?
    5. Did the investigation into the 2005 mysterious disappearance of D.A. Gricar adequately explore any potential connection to the Sandusky case?
    6. Have investigators scan for a body in any concrete slabs poured around that time and in that part of Pennsylvania where Gricar disappeared?

    And, unless one believes no other similar scandals/coverups occur anywhere else in the athletic or academic world, someone somewhere, in a CYA mode, is going to report to law enforcement what they witnessed or suspect.

  • Carl Vehse

    With Penn State’s $1.59B endowment fund, you can bet the lawyers will be feeding on the university carcass in the court system for a long time, especially after the firing of the university’s president and Joe Paterno.

    One sponsor has already bailed on Penn State. Others will likely follow; even the Big Ten sponsors may be getting nervous.

    In addition to indications of a cover-up at Penn State, which is still being investigated, there are other major questions being raised:

    1. What did other universities in the Big Ten and elsewhere know and when did they know it, especially after Paterno’s heir-apparent resigned in 1999?
    2. When Sandusky was offered a coaching job at UVA in 2000, did Penn State warn the school?
    3. Why didn’t District Attorney Ray Gricar prosecute Sandusky after investigating a 1998 incident where Sandusky was showering with an 11-year-old boy?
    4. In addition to his pedophile activities, did Sandusky pimp out the boys to other pedophiles, including rich university donors with union or political influence?
    5. Did the investigation into the 2005 mysterious disappearance of D.A. Gricar adequately explore any potential connection to the Sandusky case?
    6. Have investigators scan for a body in any concrete slabs poured around that time and in that part of Pennsylvania where Gricar disappeared?

    And, unless one believes no other similar scandals/coverups occur anywhere else in the athletic or academic world, someone somewhere, in a CYA mode, is going to report to law enforcement what they witnessed or suspect.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    So… boys are more like women than like men, so men who molest them are therefore heterosexual. And I suppose they prefer boys rather than girls because little girls are less like women than little boys are.

    And if true, the fact that boy-molesters are usually married does not lead us to conclude that sexual proclivities are far too plastic to be used as identity markers, nor does it lead us to conclude that such men are bisexual–it leads us to conclude that men raping boys belongs to the heterosexual identity marker.

    Keep torturing that reasoning; after all, your movement must be saved at all costs.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    So… boys are more like women than like men, so men who molest them are therefore heterosexual. And I suppose they prefer boys rather than girls because little girls are less like women than little boys are.

    And if true, the fact that boy-molesters are usually married does not lead us to conclude that sexual proclivities are far too plastic to be used as identity markers, nor does it lead us to conclude that such men are bisexual–it leads us to conclude that men raping boys belongs to the heterosexual identity marker.

    Keep torturing that reasoning; after all, your movement must be saved at all costs.

  • fws

    matt @ 5

    nope. not it.

    child molestations, like rapes, are not really as much about sex as about violence.

    traditionally, men become men and women become women at puberty and this was the way the world worked till around 1850 or so, even in here in the USA.

    We have muddied the waters somewhat by saying that “child molestation” extends up to age 18 and then have results like an 18 year old boy who has sex with an younger girl being imprisoned and registered as a child molester.

    It won’t take you alot of googling Matt to extablish that the typical profile of the child molester of both prepubescent boys and girls is usually a married and male family member. And that it is very very rarely a homosexual.

    And you will also find that the typical person who seeks out sex with post puberty males is almost universally a homosexual male of any age from post puberty to whatever age. Not including prison situations……

  • fws

    matt @ 5

    nope. not it.

    child molestations, like rapes, are not really as much about sex as about violence.

    traditionally, men become men and women become women at puberty and this was the way the world worked till around 1850 or so, even in here in the USA.

    We have muddied the waters somewhat by saying that “child molestation” extends up to age 18 and then have results like an 18 year old boy who has sex with an younger girl being imprisoned and registered as a child molester.

    It won’t take you alot of googling Matt to extablish that the typical profile of the child molester of both prepubescent boys and girls is usually a married and male family member. And that it is very very rarely a homosexual.

    And you will also find that the typical person who seeks out sex with post puberty males is almost universally a homosexual male of any age from post puberty to whatever age. Not including prison situations……

  • fws

    matt @ 5

    “your movement must be saved at all cost.”

    what would that “movement” be? and you are saying it is mine. why am I then not aware of having such a thing? and I dont know how what i said speaks to any particular movement beside.

    You are right that some things are more elastic than we imagine. Labels can be misleading.

    ALL that we can see and do fall into the two labels “old adam” and “sin”. Those two lables, as to all we can empirically observe, are alone quite certain.

    I agree that the rest is subject to debate as to empirical evidence.

  • fws

    matt @ 5

    “your movement must be saved at all cost.”

    what would that “movement” be? and you are saying it is mine. why am I then not aware of having such a thing? and I dont know how what i said speaks to any particular movement beside.

    You are right that some things are more elastic than we imagine. Labels can be misleading.

    ALL that we can see and do fall into the two labels “old adam” and “sin”. Those two lables, as to all we can empirically observe, are alone quite certain.

    I agree that the rest is subject to debate as to empirical evidence.

  • Dust

    My guess is that the “movement” is the gay rights movement? Of course, the label is elastic and perhaps this is not the exact, correct label, but is it close?

    As far as tortured logic goes, it does seem to me that to say that when men are attracted to boys that this is not homosexual behavior. Of course, am not an expert, but my simple-minded question would be “why not be attracted to girls?” You know, some adults are. In either case, it is pedophilia, but they seem different to me anyways? Perhaps it would be comforting to know that n.a.m.b.l.a. considers it to be homosexual, at least according to wikipedia :)

    The other “tortured” point from my point of view, and perhaps from Matt, but can’t speak for him, would be, how can you call the men who do these things as heterosexual, when in fact, they are engaging in a man-boy love thing? Seems to me, but again, am not savvy in these new ways of labeling things, to maintain their hetero status they should seek out little girls. Who seems even more attractive according to the criteria you provided earlier? But again, the way we all use words now a days, if you don’t want to call it homosexual, then you simply don’t call it that and that is that? We live in worlds where words don’t all mean the same. Hmm, what about “old Adam” and “sin” could those mean different things to different folks? Gosh, am not smart enough to keep up with it all!

    So, please don’t be surprised, if just regular folks from back home and down on the farm, don’t see these labels as you see them. You aren’t, are you?

  • Dust

    My guess is that the “movement” is the gay rights movement? Of course, the label is elastic and perhaps this is not the exact, correct label, but is it close?

    As far as tortured logic goes, it does seem to me that to say that when men are attracted to boys that this is not homosexual behavior. Of course, am not an expert, but my simple-minded question would be “why not be attracted to girls?” You know, some adults are. In either case, it is pedophilia, but they seem different to me anyways? Perhaps it would be comforting to know that n.a.m.b.l.a. considers it to be homosexual, at least according to wikipedia :)

    The other “tortured” point from my point of view, and perhaps from Matt, but can’t speak for him, would be, how can you call the men who do these things as heterosexual, when in fact, they are engaging in a man-boy love thing? Seems to me, but again, am not savvy in these new ways of labeling things, to maintain their hetero status they should seek out little girls. Who seems even more attractive according to the criteria you provided earlier? But again, the way we all use words now a days, if you don’t want to call it homosexual, then you simply don’t call it that and that is that? We live in worlds where words don’t all mean the same. Hmm, what about “old Adam” and “sin” could those mean different things to different folks? Gosh, am not smart enough to keep up with it all!

    So, please don’t be surprised, if just regular folks from back home and down on the farm, don’t see these labels as you see them. You aren’t, are you?

  • fws

    dust you revel in sarcasm and not much else it seems.

  • fws

    dust you revel in sarcasm and not much else it seems.

  • fws

    dust @ 8

    NAMBLA is a gay group that advocates in favor of the legalization of “pederasty’. They define “pederasty ” as this:

    ” Pederasty – that is, love between a man and a youth of 12 to 18 years of age ” http://www.nambla.org/pederasty.html

    It would seem from this that I am right, Gay men seem attracted to postpubescent youth. What societies have traditionally defined legally and socially as “men”. (cf hebrew and arabic customs here).

    Now I don’t agree with this. Even though the history of the world is full of stories of middle age or older men marrying girls that have just entered puberty are sadly very very common, this is really an evil practice I would say. And i would say it is evil for gay men as well.

    why? at that age these young boys and girls are still very very formative. and there are many other reasons this is all bad that are too many to mention.

    But Dust. How is it that you feel NAMBLAs position overthrows my observations? It seems rather to confirm them.

  • fws

    dust @ 8

    NAMBLA is a gay group that advocates in favor of the legalization of “pederasty’. They define “pederasty ” as this:

    ” Pederasty – that is, love between a man and a youth of 12 to 18 years of age ” http://www.nambla.org/pederasty.html

    It would seem from this that I am right, Gay men seem attracted to postpubescent youth. What societies have traditionally defined legally and socially as “men”. (cf hebrew and arabic customs here).

    Now I don’t agree with this. Even though the history of the world is full of stories of middle age or older men marrying girls that have just entered puberty are sadly very very common, this is really an evil practice I would say. And i would say it is evil for gay men as well.

    why? at that age these young boys and girls are still very very formative. and there are many other reasons this is all bad that are too many to mention.

    But Dust. How is it that you feel NAMBLAs position overthrows my observations? It seems rather to confirm them.

  • Dust

    Sorry, am really not trying to be sarcastic….am just saying it as I see it. Am just looking at what you wrote and these are honest reactions to it. Sorry if you see it some other way, or otherwise don’t want to bother with my questions. Hope you know though, and am sure you do, these are kinds of questions a lot of just regular folks ask themselves and each other? They are the kind of questions you hear when you talk and listen to a lot of people with points of view different from yours. It’s really not fair to blow them off and label them as sarcastic, whatever that means :)

    Well, thanks anyway….

  • Dust

    Sorry, am really not trying to be sarcastic….am just saying it as I see it. Am just looking at what you wrote and these are honest reactions to it. Sorry if you see it some other way, or otherwise don’t want to bother with my questions. Hope you know though, and am sure you do, these are kinds of questions a lot of just regular folks ask themselves and each other? They are the kind of questions you hear when you talk and listen to a lot of people with points of view different from yours. It’s really not fair to blow them off and label them as sarcastic, whatever that means :)

    Well, thanks anyway….

  • –helen

    Way back when public school “sex education” (read ‘encouragement to promiscuity, all sorts’) was new and I kept a file of such stuff from the papers, NAMBLA was quoted as saying that boys should be removed from their parents at age 8 “to be taught love”.
    Is 12-18 an “improvement” in NAMBLA, or an editorial adjustment in wikipedia?

  • –helen

    Way back when public school “sex education” (read ‘encouragement to promiscuity, all sorts’) was new and I kept a file of such stuff from the papers, NAMBLA was quoted as saying that boys should be removed from their parents at age 8 “to be taught love”.
    Is 12-18 an “improvement” in NAMBLA, or an editorial adjustment in wikipedia?

  • Joe

    Okay – we are way off topic here. Does it matter if Sandusky is gay or straight (are those terms still okay to use?). Not to me, what matters is that he is a sexual predator and that many people apparently new about it and did only the very minimal amount to necessary to satisfy their own preconceived notions of their duty to love their neighbor.

    I would like to not be so upset with this whole situation, but when I see the list of adults and especially adult authority figures who knew some (if not all) of the details I am saddened, sickened and angered.

  • Joe

    Okay – we are way off topic here. Does it matter if Sandusky is gay or straight (are those terms still okay to use?). Not to me, what matters is that he is a sexual predator and that many people apparently new about it and did only the very minimal amount to necessary to satisfy their own preconceived notions of their duty to love their neighbor.

    I would like to not be so upset with this whole situation, but when I see the list of adults and especially adult authority figures who knew some (if not all) of the details I am saddened, sickened and angered.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Sure… sex isn’t an important facet of a crime typified by sexual acts, and until 1850, nobody recognized a difference between male and female children. Perfectly reasonable.

    I’m not particularly interested in debating whether or not the emperor is really wearing the latest in invisible textiles. I’m just pointing it out for the sake of readers who, for whatever reason, are susceptible to that kind of sophistry.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Sure… sex isn’t an important facet of a crime typified by sexual acts, and until 1850, nobody recognized a difference between male and female children. Perfectly reasonable.

    I’m not particularly interested in debating whether or not the emperor is really wearing the latest in invisible textiles. I’m just pointing it out for the sake of readers who, for whatever reason, are susceptible to that kind of sophistry.

  • fws

    matt @ 14

    great.

    then you will be pleased to know that no one is asserting the two points you are refuting here. reread the posts.

  • fws

    matt @ 14

    great.

    then you will be pleased to know that no one is asserting the two points you are refuting here. reread the posts.

  • fws

    helen @ 12

    as best I can tell NAMBLA is a very disturbed bunch of individuals. The Law always accuses. If previously they also were arguing for what you say, then the Law is doing it’s deadly work. Which is good news…

  • fws

    helen @ 12

    as best I can tell NAMBLA is a very disturbed bunch of individuals. The Law always accuses. If previously they also were arguing for what you say, then the Law is doing it’s deadly work. Which is good news…

  • mendicus

    fws–nice rhetorical move. First define homosexuality narrowly so as to exclude the offending behavior, then conclude that the offending behavior is not homosexual. That way, when you note that homosexuals aren’t doing the offending acts, it isn’t ridiculous.

    Except that it is ridiculous. All we’re talking about are different types or categories within the overall umbrella of homosexuality. That there tends to be little crossover between the two types does not exclude one of the types from the overall. If, for instance, meth addicts and crack addicts tended not to switch between drugs (I have no idea whether this is the case…it’s just for illustrative purposes), that wouldn’t make one group “drug addicts” and the other group “not drug addicts”. They’re all under the umbrella of “drug addicts”.

    Further, you argue that men who like boys do so because the boys are like women and the men are actually straight. If you’re correct, then men who are attracted to flamboyantly effeminate gay men are not gay, either. They’re straight…just confused I suppose?

    Sophistry.

  • mendicus

    fws–nice rhetorical move. First define homosexuality narrowly so as to exclude the offending behavior, then conclude that the offending behavior is not homosexual. That way, when you note that homosexuals aren’t doing the offending acts, it isn’t ridiculous.

    Except that it is ridiculous. All we’re talking about are different types or categories within the overall umbrella of homosexuality. That there tends to be little crossover between the two types does not exclude one of the types from the overall. If, for instance, meth addicts and crack addicts tended not to switch between drugs (I have no idea whether this is the case…it’s just for illustrative purposes), that wouldn’t make one group “drug addicts” and the other group “not drug addicts”. They’re all under the umbrella of “drug addicts”.

    Further, you argue that men who like boys do so because the boys are like women and the men are actually straight. If you’re correct, then men who are attracted to flamboyantly effeminate gay men are not gay, either. They’re straight…just confused I suppose?

    Sophistry.

  • fws

    medicus @ 17

    + 1 what Joe says at 13. The focus should be on the victims and not on preserving the institution.

    sandusky was a sexual predator. The boys will be damaged forever by this. It doesnt really matter if he was gay or heterosexual.

    I am using the definition non-rhetorically of the people who own the definition of the word “homosexual” who are medical professionals. The current definition was established in around 1980. Just as they own the word ‘clinical depression” .

    That is why i would not translate the biblical command “be joyful always” as “never be clinically depressed” and I would, for the same reasons, never translate anything in the bible using the clinical term “h0mosexual”.

    Why then would it matter to you how we define the word “homosexual” or clinical depression? That discussion has nothing to do with morality or the Holy Scriptures.

    and Joe is right, this is waaaay off track. So you will have the final word on this.

  • fws

    medicus @ 17

    + 1 what Joe says at 13. The focus should be on the victims and not on preserving the institution.

    sandusky was a sexual predator. The boys will be damaged forever by this. It doesnt really matter if he was gay or heterosexual.

    I am using the definition non-rhetorically of the people who own the definition of the word “homosexual” who are medical professionals. The current definition was established in around 1980. Just as they own the word ‘clinical depression” .

    That is why i would not translate the biblical command “be joyful always” as “never be clinically depressed” and I would, for the same reasons, never translate anything in the bible using the clinical term “h0mosexual”.

    Why then would it matter to you how we define the word “homosexual” or clinical depression? That discussion has nothing to do with morality or the Holy Scriptures.

    and Joe is right, this is waaaay off track. So you will have the final word on this.

  • mendicus

    fws@18
    If we’re off track, it is you who took us there.

    If the medical profession “owns” the term “clinically depressed,” it’s because they invented it. They did not invent the term “homosexuality,” and if they attempted in 1980 to co-opt it with a narrow definition, what is that to us? It is not their term and we aren’t bound by their politically motivated definition.

    Getting back on track — As wrong as the pro-Joe riots were, and as much as Joe needed to go (see the interesting interview with Theo Fleury on the topic on foxsports.com), I’d say the riots are closer to defensible than OWS is.

    Oops, now I’m taking us off track again. :)

  • mendicus

    fws@18
    If we’re off track, it is you who took us there.

    If the medical profession “owns” the term “clinically depressed,” it’s because they invented it. They did not invent the term “homosexuality,” and if they attempted in 1980 to co-opt it with a narrow definition, what is that to us? It is not their term and we aren’t bound by their politically motivated definition.

    Getting back on track — As wrong as the pro-Joe riots were, and as much as Joe needed to go (see the interesting interview with Theo Fleury on the topic on foxsports.com), I’d say the riots are closer to defensible than OWS is.

    Oops, now I’m taking us off track again. :)

  • DonS

    If coaches can be fired simply for losing too many football games, surely they can be fired for not doing all they possibly could to remedy and stop monstrous acts against children being perpetrated in their locker room by a coach long associated with their program, once aware of them. The individual, especially when young and vulnerable, who has an eternal soul, always must take preeminence than the temporal institution. When Paterno learned of these allegations, directly seen by a graduate assistant in his program and reported directly to him, he had an overwhelming obligation to act on that knowledge to ensure that these monstrous acts never occurred again, and that the perpetrator was confronted and brought to justice. Merely waiting a day, and then telephoning administrative superiors, and afterward essentially dropping the matter, was a horrendous failure of judgement, at a minimum. There is no reasonable argument for not having immediately fired him, and the board of trustees did the right thing.

    Rumors are flying concerning the depths of the depravity of the institution and the local authorities in this matter, including some of the things Carl mentions above (the D.A. is missing since 2005?), but those will have to wait until the facts are investigated and known.

  • DonS

    If coaches can be fired simply for losing too many football games, surely they can be fired for not doing all they possibly could to remedy and stop monstrous acts against children being perpetrated in their locker room by a coach long associated with their program, once aware of them. The individual, especially when young and vulnerable, who has an eternal soul, always must take preeminence than the temporal institution. When Paterno learned of these allegations, directly seen by a graduate assistant in his program and reported directly to him, he had an overwhelming obligation to act on that knowledge to ensure that these monstrous acts never occurred again, and that the perpetrator was confronted and brought to justice. Merely waiting a day, and then telephoning administrative superiors, and afterward essentially dropping the matter, was a horrendous failure of judgement, at a minimum. There is no reasonable argument for not having immediately fired him, and the board of trustees did the right thing.

    Rumors are flying concerning the depths of the depravity of the institution and the local authorities in this matter, including some of the things Carl mentions above (the D.A. is missing since 2005?), but those will have to wait until the facts are investigated and known.

  • fws

    mendicus @ 19.

    how did i take us there?

    actually the medical profession DID invent the word “homosexual”. this occurred around 1895 or so. Like most technical/medical terms, the term has continued to evolve in it’s meaning as more has become known about the condition.

    198o or so and the Hooker studies marked a major point of redefinition because the only homosexuals included in formal studies prior to that had ALL been in mental institutions. When they took large samples of the general population and asked medical professionals to identify and single out the psychological profiles that were homosexual and they could not… that changed alot of things…..

    do some googling….

  • fws

    mendicus @ 19.

    how did i take us there?

    actually the medical profession DID invent the word “homosexual”. this occurred around 1895 or so. Like most technical/medical terms, the term has continued to evolve in it’s meaning as more has become known about the condition.

    198o or so and the Hooker studies marked a major point of redefinition because the only homosexuals included in formal studies prior to that had ALL been in mental institutions. When they took large samples of the general population and asked medical professionals to identify and single out the psychological profiles that were homosexual and they could not… that changed alot of things…..

    do some googling….

  • Another Matt

    First, fws your statements throughout do not reflect the views of any Christian homosexuals on either side of the spectrum that I know, and I know many. Nor do they reflect the findings of clinical therapists who find that statistically the molestation of prepubescent boys is much more closely linked to a history in which the perpetrator was molested as a child rather than to the perpetrator’s primary sexual attraction. I’m afraid your statements reflect only the reality in your own head.

    I’m much more concerned, however, that so much anger is being directed at the one or two people who did take some action in this incident on the basis that they “did not do enough.” Upon hearing the report, Paterno did exactly what the procedure of the school called for. He informed the athletic director and other authorities. Had these men done their jobs and contacted the police as they were legally required to do, we would be having a very different discussion right now and would be talking about how much we respect Paterno for being willing to turn a friend in to the university authorities.

    As far as I can see from all the news reports, Paterno’s “failing” was to trust those to whom he made the report to do their jobs. And now, since they failed to do so, he is the one getting crapped on.

    And this reaction is supposed to encourage people to step up to the plate?

    All this kind of talk is doing is making the rest of us feel good as we assure ourselves that we would have done differently if we had been there. But the plain fact is that the vast majority of us would not have. The vast majority would have reacted exactly as Paterno did, followed procedure and trusted others to do what that procedure required of them.

    Let’s direct our anger where it belongs – Sandusky for being sexual predator and the university officials who have been arrested for disobeying the law. The full weight of the crime is theirs and theirs alone.

  • Another Matt

    First, fws your statements throughout do not reflect the views of any Christian homosexuals on either side of the spectrum that I know, and I know many. Nor do they reflect the findings of clinical therapists who find that statistically the molestation of prepubescent boys is much more closely linked to a history in which the perpetrator was molested as a child rather than to the perpetrator’s primary sexual attraction. I’m afraid your statements reflect only the reality in your own head.

    I’m much more concerned, however, that so much anger is being directed at the one or two people who did take some action in this incident on the basis that they “did not do enough.” Upon hearing the report, Paterno did exactly what the procedure of the school called for. He informed the athletic director and other authorities. Had these men done their jobs and contacted the police as they were legally required to do, we would be having a very different discussion right now and would be talking about how much we respect Paterno for being willing to turn a friend in to the university authorities.

    As far as I can see from all the news reports, Paterno’s “failing” was to trust those to whom he made the report to do their jobs. And now, since they failed to do so, he is the one getting crapped on.

    And this reaction is supposed to encourage people to step up to the plate?

    All this kind of talk is doing is making the rest of us feel good as we assure ourselves that we would have done differently if we had been there. But the plain fact is that the vast majority of us would not have. The vast majority would have reacted exactly as Paterno did, followed procedure and trusted others to do what that procedure required of them.

    Let’s direct our anger where it belongs – Sandusky for being sexual predator and the university officials who have been arrested for disobeying the law. The full weight of the crime is theirs and theirs alone.

  • Grace

    As I’ve read these reports over and over – ‘some did what they were called to do, but they didn’t follow through. They did the MINIMUM

    I believe that if it had been THEIR SON, or DAUGHTER, they would have taken it straight through the legal system. Making sure the perpetrator was punished, making it impossible for he/she to do it again.

    We go back to the priests who molested boys – make no mistake, if they had not been homosexuals they would not have chosen boys, but girls – if sex is what they desired they would have gone after a woman, not a young male or female.

    This whole idea that homosexuals are not perpetrators of these crimes is garbage – homosexuals marry women, and then live the homosexual lifestyle – in other words TWO LIVES, making excuses for themselves.

    Homosexuals make excuses for themselves and others just like them.

    No one should get a pass when a youngster is molested by anyone, be it of their own gender or the opposite. Add to that, no one should be molested,….. while others throw on their blinders, it should be taken straight to the authorities, and dealt with.

  • Grace

    As I’ve read these reports over and over – ‘some did what they were called to do, but they didn’t follow through. They did the MINIMUM

    I believe that if it had been THEIR SON, or DAUGHTER, they would have taken it straight through the legal system. Making sure the perpetrator was punished, making it impossible for he/she to do it again.

    We go back to the priests who molested boys – make no mistake, if they had not been homosexuals they would not have chosen boys, but girls – if sex is what they desired they would have gone after a woman, not a young male or female.

    This whole idea that homosexuals are not perpetrators of these crimes is garbage – homosexuals marry women, and then live the homosexual lifestyle – in other words TWO LIVES, making excuses for themselves.

    Homosexuals make excuses for themselves and others just like them.

    No one should get a pass when a youngster is molested by anyone, be it of their own gender or the opposite. Add to that, no one should be molested,….. while others throw on their blinders, it should be taken straight to the authorities, and dealt with.

  • Dust

    Another Matt at 22…..am curious about this statement in your comment:

    “the molestation of prepubescent boys is much more closely linked to a history in which the perpetrator was molested as a child rather than to the perpetrator’s primary sexual attraction.”

    This seems to imply, at least to me at the moment, that a perpetrator’s primary sexual attraction could be heterosexual, that is, for example, a man married to a woman, but they may carry out their molestations on boys, not because they are homosexual, but because of their history in which they were molested as a child?

    Am not trying to be snarky or sarcastic, but it just seems to me to be one way to interpret that remark, and it may be what fws was trying to say at the beginning?

    If not that will be fine too. Am not actually sure why this is all that important to me anyway, except it would be a matter of fairness to fws if he was trying to say that and us little people didn’t get it.

    Nonetheless, it would still be confusing because you know the saying, if it walks like a duck, etc, etc, then it must be a duck…well if an adult male molests a boy child, it seems like a homosexual act to me, just by definition, but maybe it is not according to that comment up there?

    In any case, thanks and Lord have mercy!

  • Dust

    Another Matt at 22…..am curious about this statement in your comment:

    “the molestation of prepubescent boys is much more closely linked to a history in which the perpetrator was molested as a child rather than to the perpetrator’s primary sexual attraction.”

    This seems to imply, at least to me at the moment, that a perpetrator’s primary sexual attraction could be heterosexual, that is, for example, a man married to a woman, but they may carry out their molestations on boys, not because they are homosexual, but because of their history in which they were molested as a child?

    Am not trying to be snarky or sarcastic, but it just seems to me to be one way to interpret that remark, and it may be what fws was trying to say at the beginning?

    If not that will be fine too. Am not actually sure why this is all that important to me anyway, except it would be a matter of fairness to fws if he was trying to say that and us little people didn’t get it.

    Nonetheless, it would still be confusing because you know the saying, if it walks like a duck, etc, etc, then it must be a duck…well if an adult male molests a boy child, it seems like a homosexual act to me, just by definition, but maybe it is not according to that comment up there?

    In any case, thanks and Lord have mercy!

  • Carl Vehse

    In his column, “More To The Story At Penn State” Brian McNicoll notes Sandusky was not a close friend of Coach Joe Paterno, just an employee of the Penn State football ‘god.’ Paterno had nothing to fear back then from his practically token university “bosses” about going to the cops in 2002 or 1998 or even earlier. McNicoll then notes:

    Why then? Why was this hidden? A lot of people think the secret inside the secret has been revealed – what on earth could be worse than a 40-count indictment for child molestation? But some other secret was bigger. That secret is worth keeping even if it means prison for some of the top officials at Penn State and, for Paterno, the loss of the job that seemed to be his for life and a reputation envied by all in his profession.

    That must be one hell of a secret.

  • Carl Vehse

    In his column, “More To The Story At Penn State” Brian McNicoll notes Sandusky was not a close friend of Coach Joe Paterno, just an employee of the Penn State football ‘god.’ Paterno had nothing to fear back then from his practically token university “bosses” about going to the cops in 2002 or 1998 or even earlier. McNicoll then notes:

    Why then? Why was this hidden? A lot of people think the secret inside the secret has been revealed – what on earth could be worse than a 40-count indictment for child molestation? But some other secret was bigger. That secret is worth keeping even if it means prison for some of the top officials at Penn State and, for Paterno, the loss of the job that seemed to be his for life and a reputation envied by all in his profession.

    That must be one hell of a secret.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    fws and others, this is not so much a heterosexual or homosexual issue as it is a mental disease. What such cases are, are the manifestation of sin via a mental illness that distorts how a person views other people. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    fws and others, this is not so much a heterosexual or homosexual issue as it is a mental disease. What such cases are, are the manifestation of sin via a mental illness that distorts how a person views other people. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • http://www.caryschwarz.com saddler

    This is an object lesson on the doctrine of vocation: when there is clear or alleged crime involved, who do you call? The police. They are the people with the skill set, experience, and official designation to handle these things in our society. God has created the office of law enforcement to so.

  • http://www.caryschwarz.com saddler

    This is an object lesson on the doctrine of vocation: when there is clear or alleged crime involved, who do you call? The police. They are the people with the skill set, experience, and official designation to handle these things in our society. God has created the office of law enforcement to so.

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    up-=date-the original prosecutor went ‘missing’ and several years later was ‘declared’ dead!!

    follow the money and power-my friends—

    Carol-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    up-=date-the original prosecutor went ‘missing’ and several years later was ‘declared’ dead!!

    follow the money and power-my friends—

    Carol-CS

  • Grace

    Carl Vehse @ 25

    I agree, there is something far more serious here.

    Governor: Penn St. assistant who says he saw assault failed a ‘moral obligation’ to intervene

    By Associated Press, Updated: Sunday, November 13, 8:58 AM

    HARRISBURG, Pa. — “The Penn State football coach who told a grand jury that he saw another coach molest a child failed to meet “a moral obligation” to intervene, Pennsylvania’s governor said Sunday, adding that he expects more victims to come forward.

    The coach who testified, Mike McQueary, had said he saw retired Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky sexually assaulting a boy in a shower at a campus football facility almost a decade ago. Sandusky is accused of assaulting eight boys over 15 years and has maintained his innocence. The university has put McQueary on leave from his job.

    McQueary told the grand jury he was distraught by what he witnessed and walked away after both Sandusky and the boy saw him. He said he told his father what happened and then told head coach Joe Paterno, who reported it to his superiors. But those school officials, athletic director Tim Curley and school vice president Gary Schultz, face perjury charges, accused of covering up McQueary’s 2002 report.”

    READ THE REST: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/governor-penn-st-assistant-who-says-he-saw-assault-failed-a-moral-obligation-to-intervene/2011/11/13/gIQAyPA8HN_story.html

    So…. WHY did McQueary walk away? Why didn’t he jump in the shower and stop it? Reporting something like this is one thing, which should be done, but not intervening to save a child from such a horrific ordeal?

    Confrontation towards those who do these things is beyond difficult, many times ‘others don’t want to be involved.

    People often want to cover their ‘careers, home, financial security, superiors, and social standing OR, young people are afraid they will be shunned, the officials, parents, relatives, etc, will want to keep it private. Their first goal is not always to protect the innocent, those who have been harmed.

  • Grace

    Carl Vehse @ 25

    I agree, there is something far more serious here.

    Governor: Penn St. assistant who says he saw assault failed a ‘moral obligation’ to intervene

    By Associated Press, Updated: Sunday, November 13, 8:58 AM

    HARRISBURG, Pa. — “The Penn State football coach who told a grand jury that he saw another coach molest a child failed to meet “a moral obligation” to intervene, Pennsylvania’s governor said Sunday, adding that he expects more victims to come forward.

    The coach who testified, Mike McQueary, had said he saw retired Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky sexually assaulting a boy in a shower at a campus football facility almost a decade ago. Sandusky is accused of assaulting eight boys over 15 years and has maintained his innocence. The university has put McQueary on leave from his job.

    McQueary told the grand jury he was distraught by what he witnessed and walked away after both Sandusky and the boy saw him. He said he told his father what happened and then told head coach Joe Paterno, who reported it to his superiors. But those school officials, athletic director Tim Curley and school vice president Gary Schultz, face perjury charges, accused of covering up McQueary’s 2002 report.”

    READ THE REST: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/governor-penn-st-assistant-who-says-he-saw-assault-failed-a-moral-obligation-to-intervene/2011/11/13/gIQAyPA8HN_story.html

    So…. WHY did McQueary walk away? Why didn’t he jump in the shower and stop it? Reporting something like this is one thing, which should be done, but not intervening to save a child from such a horrific ordeal?

    Confrontation towards those who do these things is beyond difficult, many times ‘others don’t want to be involved.

    People often want to cover their ‘careers, home, financial security, superiors, and social standing OR, young people are afraid they will be shunned, the officials, parents, relatives, etc, will want to keep it private. Their first goal is not always to protect the innocent, those who have been harmed.

  • Carl Vehse

    Maybe doing the right thing is returning.

    Yesterday when a OWS protestor disturbed a lawful assembly in New York gathered at U.S. Rep. Bob Turner’s swearing-in ceremony, a Turner supporter (and former Marine) took on the civic responsibility to take out the garbage. It is not known whether the NYC Sanitation Dept. has trash pick-up in that area on Monday.

  • Carl Vehse

    Maybe doing the right thing is returning.

    Yesterday when a OWS protestor disturbed a lawful assembly in New York gathered at U.S. Rep. Bob Turner’s swearing-in ceremony, a Turner supporter (and former Marine) took on the civic responsibility to take out the garbage. It is not known whether the NYC Sanitation Dept. has trash pick-up in that area on Monday.


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