Anti-Tebow bigotry?

A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow.  And it’s because of his open Christianity.   Even other Christians sometimes squirm over his overt piety, putting John 3:16 on the patches under his eyes and kneeling down to pray after each of his numerous touchdowns.  And further confounding his critics is that, despite what would seem to be poor football technique and bad passing, he keeps leading his team to one miraculous come-from-behind last minute victory after another!

Many Christians are not that demonstrative about our faith, which is certainly legitimate.  But is there anything actually wrong with Tebow being so demonstrative about it?  And shouldn’t we cut him some slack about it?  Yes, we are to beware those who practice their piety before men, but Tebow certainly isn’t doing it to make himself look good–as might happen in another age–since it is only attracting scorn and contempt.  Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

Displays of faith put Tebow in spotlight – USATODAY.com.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.peaceofficerministries.org Rev. Frank C. Ruffatto

    Preach the Gospel and because it’s necessary use words! (Romans 10:10-17) Here’s an interesting article addressing this very thing about Tebow – http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/284806/tebow-s-religion-and-ours-daniel-foster?pg=1

  • http://www.peaceofficerministries.org Rev. Frank C. Ruffatto

    Preach the Gospel and because it’s necessary use words! (Romans 10:10-17) Here’s an interesting article addressing this very thing about Tebow – http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/284806/tebow-s-religion-and-ours-daniel-foster?pg=1

  • Morgan

    Absolutely nothing wrong with Tebow or what he’s doing. And I’m certainly no Tebow die-hard or even a Broncos fan. Society only tolerates Christians (and really anyone else) who don’t rock the boat. Get outside of that comfortable, don’t-ask-don’t-tell norm, and there’s a steep price to pay.

    I wonder a lot about defensive ends that “Tebow” after sacking, well, Tebow. I wonder who they’re actually mocking? Tim? Christianity? The God Tim purports to serve?

  • Morgan

    Absolutely nothing wrong with Tebow or what he’s doing. And I’m certainly no Tebow die-hard or even a Broncos fan. Society only tolerates Christians (and really anyone else) who don’t rock the boat. Get outside of that comfortable, don’t-ask-don’t-tell norm, and there’s a steep price to pay.

    I wonder a lot about defensive ends that “Tebow” after sacking, well, Tebow. I wonder who they’re actually mocking? Tim? Christianity? The God Tim purports to serve?

  • Richard

    Do we REALLY have to wear our faith under our eyebrows? What about being faithful at your vocation? As I understand, the 2011 World Series MVP was David Freese, who attends an LCMS church. He wasn’t as vocal about his faith in ther interviews I saw. He was just good at his vocation! Was he less “spiritual” than Tebow?

  • Richard

    Do we REALLY have to wear our faith under our eyebrows? What about being faithful at your vocation? As I understand, the 2011 World Series MVP was David Freese, who attends an LCMS church. He wasn’t as vocal about his faith in ther interviews I saw. He was just good at his vocation! Was he less “spiritual” than Tebow?

  • Mike

    If only he were a muslim. He’d be hailed for his profound and peace loving devotion.

  • Mike

    If only he were a muslim. He’d be hailed for his profound and peace loving devotion.

  • Pete

    Richard raises a good point. In the public arena, there are some sticky issues, one of which is religion. A football player is a football player and one who uses his media prominence as a “bully pulpit” can harm his or her cause by becoming strident or tiresome. Not to say one shouldn’t profess one’s faith if asked, but there is a line that can be crossed. This applies to politics, too. I’m old enough to remember John Carlos and Lee Evans giving the black power salute while on the victory stand in the ’72 Olympics. Not appropriate, IMHO.
    I’m always mildly amused by athletes who, after some remarkable athletic achievement, indicate that they want to give God all the glory. Let’s say you’ve pitched a perfect game – you’ve retired 27 consecutive, highly skilled professional hitters. The glory to God is in the thing itself – not in your acknowledgement thereof. And God is glorified whether the pitcher is Christian, Hindu or atheist. God is glorified whether the pitcher likes it or not.

  • Pete

    Richard raises a good point. In the public arena, there are some sticky issues, one of which is religion. A football player is a football player and one who uses his media prominence as a “bully pulpit” can harm his or her cause by becoming strident or tiresome. Not to say one shouldn’t profess one’s faith if asked, but there is a line that can be crossed. This applies to politics, too. I’m old enough to remember John Carlos and Lee Evans giving the black power salute while on the victory stand in the ’72 Olympics. Not appropriate, IMHO.
    I’m always mildly amused by athletes who, after some remarkable athletic achievement, indicate that they want to give God all the glory. Let’s say you’ve pitched a perfect game – you’ve retired 27 consecutive, highly skilled professional hitters. The glory to God is in the thing itself – not in your acknowledgement thereof. And God is glorified whether the pitcher is Christian, Hindu or atheist. God is glorified whether the pitcher likes it or not.

  • Dennis Peskey

    I would assert the problem with Mr. Tebow’s demonstrative faith is too many see this as pharisee whereas we’re more comfortable with a humble posture of prayer. I’m not a big fan of “I pray, ergo, I win” religion. Does Mr. Tebow devote as much time praying during the first three quarters when his offense is pitiful? Does he thank God for all the three-and-outs registered which result in necessary heroics to obtain victory? And has anyone informed Mr. Tebow that God may prefer to watch other teams (such as the Packers) who excel in all facets of an NFL offense.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    I would assert the problem with Mr. Tebow’s demonstrative faith is too many see this as pharisee whereas we’re more comfortable with a humble posture of prayer. I’m not a big fan of “I pray, ergo, I win” religion. Does Mr. Tebow devote as much time praying during the first three quarters when his offense is pitiful? Does he thank God for all the three-and-outs registered which result in necessary heroics to obtain victory? And has anyone informed Mr. Tebow that God may prefer to watch other teams (such as the Packers) who excel in all facets of an NFL offense.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Surely nobody has to wear their faith under their eyebrows, but nobody is suggesting that we lay such a burden on everyone. The question at hand is whether it is wrong to do so.

    While the doctrine of vocation can help untangle that question, simply remarking that expressing one’s faith is not be part of the vocation of football player is not the whole of the issue. Remember: football player is not Tebow’s only vocation. There is a hypostatic union between Tebow the football player, Tebow the son, Tebow the role-model, Tebow the citizen, and every other calling he has–they are all the same person. We should therefore not expect an airtight separation between his different callings anymore than we should expect one between Christ’s divine and human natures.

    I don’t see any good reason to condemn Tebow’s choice to express his faith in the manner he has. Frankly, I think the ease with which Tebow’s own expression of piety is interpreted by others as a law is quite interesting. I’ve seen no evidence that Tebow is trying to turn his piety into a law for others. Only his critics seem to want to do that.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Surely nobody has to wear their faith under their eyebrows, but nobody is suggesting that we lay such a burden on everyone. The question at hand is whether it is wrong to do so.

    While the doctrine of vocation can help untangle that question, simply remarking that expressing one’s faith is not be part of the vocation of football player is not the whole of the issue. Remember: football player is not Tebow’s only vocation. There is a hypostatic union between Tebow the football player, Tebow the son, Tebow the role-model, Tebow the citizen, and every other calling he has–they are all the same person. We should therefore not expect an airtight separation between his different callings anymore than we should expect one between Christ’s divine and human natures.

    I don’t see any good reason to condemn Tebow’s choice to express his faith in the manner he has. Frankly, I think the ease with which Tebow’s own expression of piety is interpreted by others as a law is quite interesting. I’ve seen no evidence that Tebow is trying to turn his piety into a law for others. Only his critics seem to want to do that.

  • The Jones

    While I’m a Tebow fan but not a Broncos fan (after all, God loves the Saints), I think the main fear I have with Tebow is an enormous fall from grace. The higher people are built up, the more devastating it is when they fall. Maybe my uneasiness is closely tied to the long-developed cynicism that public Christian figures have given me. But is that my problem or Tebow’s?

    But with what he’s doing right now, I find nothing wrong with it. It’s actually pretty good. But as for “visibility,” he’s not really doing all that much. We see him pray at football games, but that’s because he’s on national television. If nobody noticed him doing it, then this whole controversy would be dead and he would be ignored. He doesn’t toot his own horn much. I mean, is Tim Tebow the only guy who gets down on a knee and prays after touchdowns or something in the NFL? Of course not. Just the only one who took his team from 4-1 to the top of the AFC West with six wins out of seven games with five second half comebacks in those. He’s not getting noticed because he’s Christian. He’s getting noticed because he’s good.

    It’s not Tim Tebow who furthers the controversy over sports radio airwaves. It’s other people. He just graciously responds to questions that he’s asked. Good for him. He acts like he’s always acted and responds gracefully when criticized for it. He’s not asking us to be just as visible, he makes no demands on anybody else, even Christians. So come on, how could we get mad about that, and what does it say about us when we do get mad? I’ve already answered the question for myself: I’m cynical. But what about everyone else?

  • The Jones

    While I’m a Tebow fan but not a Broncos fan (after all, God loves the Saints), I think the main fear I have with Tebow is an enormous fall from grace. The higher people are built up, the more devastating it is when they fall. Maybe my uneasiness is closely tied to the long-developed cynicism that public Christian figures have given me. But is that my problem or Tebow’s?

    But with what he’s doing right now, I find nothing wrong with it. It’s actually pretty good. But as for “visibility,” he’s not really doing all that much. We see him pray at football games, but that’s because he’s on national television. If nobody noticed him doing it, then this whole controversy would be dead and he would be ignored. He doesn’t toot his own horn much. I mean, is Tim Tebow the only guy who gets down on a knee and prays after touchdowns or something in the NFL? Of course not. Just the only one who took his team from 4-1 to the top of the AFC West with six wins out of seven games with five second half comebacks in those. He’s not getting noticed because he’s Christian. He’s getting noticed because he’s good.

    It’s not Tim Tebow who furthers the controversy over sports radio airwaves. It’s other people. He just graciously responds to questions that he’s asked. Good for him. He acts like he’s always acted and responds gracefully when criticized for it. He’s not asking us to be just as visible, he makes no demands on anybody else, even Christians. So come on, how could we get mad about that, and what does it say about us when we do get mad? I’ve already answered the question for myself: I’m cynical. But what about everyone else?

  • The Jones

    *took his team from 1-4 to the top of the AFC West

  • The Jones

    *took his team from 1-4 to the top of the AFC West

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I wonder why folks don’t just ignore it. What is the point of investing any energy in hating Tebow? I don’t get it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I wonder why folks don’t just ignore it. What is the point of investing any energy in hating Tebow? I don’t get it.

  • Jonathan

    Recurring dream: In my law office, I write Bible verses on my face and suit and go to court. The judge tells me to remove them. I refuse, citing my responsibility to be a good witness. Later, during trial, I briefly hold up proceedings by falling to my knees in prayer each time the court sustains my objections or otherwise rules in my favor. Eventually, the court grows frustrated and holds me in contempt. There is a lot of snickering from bystanders, but those people hate the Lord. I’m now a martyr and am booked on Pat Robertson’s TV show to talk about how our religious freedom is imperiled.

  • Jonathan

    Recurring dream: In my law office, I write Bible verses on my face and suit and go to court. The judge tells me to remove them. I refuse, citing my responsibility to be a good witness. Later, during trial, I briefly hold up proceedings by falling to my knees in prayer each time the court sustains my objections or otherwise rules in my favor. Eventually, the court grows frustrated and holds me in contempt. There is a lot of snickering from bystanders, but those people hate the Lord. I’m now a martyr and am booked on Pat Robertson’s TV show to talk about how our religious freedom is imperiled.

  • DonS

    It is telling that Tebow is uniquely hated for what some regard as his flamboyance, when there are many other athletes who are at least as flamboyant (Chad Ochocinco anyone?), yet seem not to garner that same level of hatred. It’ s clear to me that the problem is the discomfiture many have at the mention of Christ.

    Tebow seems to be the real deal. He is a natural leader, and seems to have a genuine love of His Savior, and wants to give Him the glory. Nothing at all wrong with that, and I find myself rooting for him and the Broncos this year.

    Of course, we all know that when we declare our Christianity, we are a target, of both those who don’t know Him, and of Satan. Many well known Christians have fallen. We need to stay in the Spirit, lest we fall as well.

  • DonS

    It is telling that Tebow is uniquely hated for what some regard as his flamboyance, when there are many other athletes who are at least as flamboyant (Chad Ochocinco anyone?), yet seem not to garner that same level of hatred. It’ s clear to me that the problem is the discomfiture many have at the mention of Christ.

    Tebow seems to be the real deal. He is a natural leader, and seems to have a genuine love of His Savior, and wants to give Him the glory. Nothing at all wrong with that, and I find myself rooting for him and the Broncos this year.

    Of course, we all know that when we declare our Christianity, we are a target, of both those who don’t know Him, and of Satan. Many well known Christians have fallen. We need to stay in the Spirit, lest we fall as well.

  • Med Student

    Morgan @ 2
    I think it’s not uncommon for football players to copy each other’s moves in situations like that – a form of mockery to be sure, but not unusual. Do people get offended if a defensive back copies Aaron Rodger’s championship belt move after sacking him? Or are they only offended because Tebow’s signature move happens to be dropping into a prayerful position so copying him is irreverent? Honestly think I think Christians are being overly sensitive about the whole issue. If this is what persecution is in this country, we are extremely blessed. I personally don’t care about Tebow one way or the other as a football player except I’m happy my team beat his when they played – and easily gave Tebow his worst game as a starter in the process.

  • Med Student

    Morgan @ 2
    I think it’s not uncommon for football players to copy each other’s moves in situations like that – a form of mockery to be sure, but not unusual. Do people get offended if a defensive back copies Aaron Rodger’s championship belt move after sacking him? Or are they only offended because Tebow’s signature move happens to be dropping into a prayerful position so copying him is irreverent? Honestly think I think Christians are being overly sensitive about the whole issue. If this is what persecution is in this country, we are extremely blessed. I personally don’t care about Tebow one way or the other as a football player except I’m happy my team beat his when they played – and easily gave Tebow his worst game as a starter in the process.

  • DonS
  • DonS
  • http://concordiaandkoinonia.wordpress.com/ Rev. Mark Schroeder

    Richard @ 6: First: it is not in my purview to judge someone’s spirituality. If Mr. Freese was more demonstrative about his faith it sure would have encouraged a whole bunch of Lutheran Christians in the LCMS and this pastor as well!
    But for balance: there is the infamous Steve Johnson tweet, after he dropped the ball:
    I PRAISE YOU 24/7!!!!!! AND THIS HOW YOU DO ME!!!!! YOU EXPECT ME TO LEARN FROM THIS??? HOW???!!! ILL NEVER FORGET THIS!! EVER!!! THX THO…
    This kind of faith can border on the superstitious, a tit for tat arrangement, as in the baseball player making the sign of the cross before coming to bat. I find Mr. Tebow’s demonstrative faith encouraging but also encouraging is the way a Christian deals with failure.

  • http://concordiaandkoinonia.wordpress.com/ Rev. Mark Schroeder

    Richard @ 6: First: it is not in my purview to judge someone’s spirituality. If Mr. Freese was more demonstrative about his faith it sure would have encouraged a whole bunch of Lutheran Christians in the LCMS and this pastor as well!
    But for balance: there is the infamous Steve Johnson tweet, after he dropped the ball:
    I PRAISE YOU 24/7!!!!!! AND THIS HOW YOU DO ME!!!!! YOU EXPECT ME TO LEARN FROM THIS??? HOW???!!! ILL NEVER FORGET THIS!! EVER!!! THX THO…
    This kind of faith can border on the superstitious, a tit for tat arrangement, as in the baseball player making the sign of the cross before coming to bat. I find Mr. Tebow’s demonstrative faith encouraging but also encouraging is the way a Christian deals with failure.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Jonathan,

    The severe incongruity between your dream lawyer’s behavior and the courtroom environment is not because the behavior is marked by Christianity but because it’s the behavior of a football player. Now, we could argue about whether it’s a good idea for a lawyer to wear cross cufflinks to court, but seeing as how Tebow actually is a football player, your attempt to mock him was a rather dismal failure.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Jonathan,

    The severe incongruity between your dream lawyer’s behavior and the courtroom environment is not because the behavior is marked by Christianity but because it’s the behavior of a football player. Now, we could argue about whether it’s a good idea for a lawyer to wear cross cufflinks to court, but seeing as how Tebow actually is a football player, your attempt to mock him was a rather dismal failure.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Personally, I don’t like it when Christian athletes point to Heaven when they score a touchdown. It’s an expression of the theology of glory.

    What about pointing to Heaven when they fumble, or throw an interception, or when they lose a game?

    And are there not Christians on the other team? Is God really working just for REAL demonstrative Christians who point and wear Scripture on their persons?

    Plus, I think this can help foster the caricatures that so many have of Christians these days.

    No…I’m not a fan of it at all.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Personally, I don’t like it when Christian athletes point to Heaven when they score a touchdown. It’s an expression of the theology of glory.

    What about pointing to Heaven when they fumble, or throw an interception, or when they lose a game?

    And are there not Christians on the other team? Is God really working just for REAL demonstrative Christians who point and wear Scripture on their persons?

    Plus, I think this can help foster the caricatures that so many have of Christians these days.

    No…I’m not a fan of it at all.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Now, I like the kid as a player. And I wish him all the best.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Now, I like the kid as a player. And I wish him all the best.

  • DonS

    Steve, I think the very thing that makes Tebow different is that he glorifies God win or lose, succeed or fail. As we all should do in life.

  • DonS

    Steve, I think the very thing that makes Tebow different is that he glorifies God win or lose, succeed or fail. As we all should do in life.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    He’s just a football player.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    He’s just a football player.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I agree with Steve’s analysis at 17.

    Mike @ 4: My, but aren’t you the hate-filled pot of poison today! What, slipped on a Halaal schwarma or something?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I agree with Steve’s analysis at 17.

    Mike @ 4: My, but aren’t you the hate-filled pot of poison today! What, slipped on a Halaal schwarma or something?

  • steve

    I, like Mr. Martin above, have concerns about athletes crediting God for their win. I would be much more comfortable with them crediting God for giving them talents and helping them be hard-working, conscientious people which translates to their game. But that level of distinction gets lost on people who just hate the guy because he’s “preachy”. Conversely, the athletic world is replete with players setting bad examples for our kids so bashing Tebow for being overtly Christian rings more than a little hollow.

  • steve

    I, like Mr. Martin above, have concerns about athletes crediting God for their win. I would be much more comfortable with them crediting God for giving them talents and helping them be hard-working, conscientious people which translates to their game. But that level of distinction gets lost on people who just hate the guy because he’s “preachy”. Conversely, the athletic world is replete with players setting bad examples for our kids so bashing Tebow for being overtly Christian rings more than a little hollow.

  • Jonathan

    @16, If I was gently mocking anything, it was the CalvChapel-ization of the faith, which sees piety as bumper stickers (face paint) and elaborate, entertainingly public prayer rituals to celebrate corporate athletic prowess. To see the silliness, apply the behavior to any other walk of life.

  • Jonathan

    @16, If I was gently mocking anything, it was the CalvChapel-ization of the faith, which sees piety as bumper stickers (face paint) and elaborate, entertainingly public prayer rituals to celebrate corporate athletic prowess. To see the silliness, apply the behavior to any other walk of life.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    I really think that the pious theatrics are uncalled for. I really don’t think God takes as much of an interest in American professional sports as some of the players think he does.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    I really think that the pious theatrics are uncalled for. I really don’t think God takes as much of an interest in American professional sports as some of the players think he does.

  • Richard

    Rev. McCain,

    Except for the St. Louis Cardinals?

  • Richard

    Rev. McCain,

    Except for the St. Louis Cardinals?

  • DonS

    Rev. McCain @ 24: Isn’t Tebow merely practicing his vocation as a football player? Are you saying that his vocation is less valid than others? Aren’t we called to glorify God in our vocation? I guess I’m a little confused by your comment.

  • DonS

    Rev. McCain @ 24: Isn’t Tebow merely practicing his vocation as a football player? Are you saying that his vocation is less valid than others? Aren’t we called to glorify God in our vocation? I guess I’m a little confused by your comment.

  • Richard

    Jonathan is right. My vocation is an attorney. How incongrous would it be for me to drop to my knees in the court room after each argument. It interferes with my vocation. Why is it that this is some how an indication of “super spirituality?” And Steve Martin is right–it does tie in with a theology of glory. The Steve Johnson tweet is hilarious–but it represents what a lof of people expect, that Christianity is for “winners.’

  • Richard

    Jonathan is right. My vocation is an attorney. How incongrous would it be for me to drop to my knees in the court room after each argument. It interferes with my vocation. Why is it that this is some how an indication of “super spirituality?” And Steve Martin is right–it does tie in with a theology of glory. The Steve Johnson tweet is hilarious–but it represents what a lof of people expect, that Christianity is for “winners.’

  • Richard

    DonS,

    We are called to love and serve our neighbor in vocation. Our neighbor is watching football, and enjoying football by professionals. Is Tebow being faithful at his vocation–or is he trying to turn this into something else?

  • Richard

    DonS,

    We are called to love and serve our neighbor in vocation. Our neighbor is watching football, and enjoying football by professionals. Is Tebow being faithful at his vocation–or is he trying to turn this into something else?

  • DonS

    Richard: Somehow you have conflated Steve Johnson’s clearly outrageous tweet with Tebow’s expressions of faith — which have never, in any way, to my knowledge, varied depending upon success or failure — your theology of glory charge is without merit with respect to Tebow.

  • DonS

    Richard: Somehow you have conflated Steve Johnson’s clearly outrageous tweet with Tebow’s expressions of faith — which have never, in any way, to my knowledge, varied depending upon success or failure — your theology of glory charge is without merit with respect to Tebow.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 27: The expression has to be appropriate to the venue, as Matt already explained @ 16. Comparing the courtroom to the football field is an inapt analogy, to say the least.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 27: The expression has to be appropriate to the venue, as Matt already explained @ 16. Comparing the courtroom to the football field is an inapt analogy, to say the least.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Richard, compelling argument at #27! You might achieve a certain notoriety quickly, and soon everyone will know about you.

    Oh wait…

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Richard, compelling argument at #27! You might achieve a certain notoriety quickly, and soon everyone will know about you.

    Oh wait…

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    In the interests of full disclosure, I’ve been a Bronco fan since before I was born.

    There is nothing about what Tebow does that reminds me of the prohibitions against parading our faith before men that our Lord gives in Scripture.

    I don’t think Tebow cares what people think about him. I don’t think he’s any less thankful to God when he fumbles (but that happens so seldom it’d be hard to guess) than when he Elways his way into the end zone.

    I think he’s just expressing his faith in the way which comes naturally to him, and I get the sense that he’s a little embarrassed by all the attention he’s getting.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    In the interests of full disclosure, I’ve been a Bronco fan since before I was born.

    There is nothing about what Tebow does that reminds me of the prohibitions against parading our faith before men that our Lord gives in Scripture.

    I don’t think Tebow cares what people think about him. I don’t think he’s any less thankful to God when he fumbles (but that happens so seldom it’d be hard to guess) than when he Elways his way into the end zone.

    I think he’s just expressing his faith in the way which comes naturally to him, and I get the sense that he’s a little embarrassed by all the attention he’s getting.

  • Jonathan

    @30, But the point by some is that Tebow’s actions are inappropriate in any venue, football or elsewhere. But I’m curious that you say Tebow’s “expressions of faith” never vary. I don’t watch many Bronco games, but is it true he publicly reacts to throwing an interception as to a touchdown? Or are you saying that after a game, win or lose, he reacts the same?

  • Jonathan

    @30, But the point by some is that Tebow’s actions are inappropriate in any venue, football or elsewhere. But I’m curious that you say Tebow’s “expressions of faith” never vary. I don’t watch many Bronco games, but is it true he publicly reacts to throwing an interception as to a touchdown? Or are you saying that after a game, win or lose, he reacts the same?

  • The Jones

    People,

    How does Tim Tebow’s prayer and whatnot “interfere” with his football playing? I mean, he’s working hard, playing hard, and winning. That’s the primary part of his vocation, and the prayer thing hasn’t done anything to hurt that. The second part of his vocation is to have some sort of platform and notoriety, and do something with that. Lots of teams do it with charity and United Way stuff. He’s actually doing a good job on his own pushing character and whatnot. In his own words, “if all I go is score touchdowns and win games, at the end of the day, that’s not very much.” I find little substance in the critiques of Tebow other than “I don’t like it” and “I wouldn’t drop down on my knees it in my job” (but is your job as physical as Tebows? And do you not pray at all in your job?).

    Good point, Rev. Schroeder, and DonS, with Steve Johnson and Chad Ochocinco, how does Tim Tebow meet the standard of flamboyant?

    And Johnathan @11, you analogy makes no sense. That WOULD interfere with your vocation and it DOESN’T interfere with Tebow’s (he’s still working hard and winning). Also, no judge has told Tebow to change his actions, unless of course, you think you think ticked off fans hold that legitimate position. And Tim Tebow has never played the martyr card. You’re just uninformed.

  • The Jones

    People,

    How does Tim Tebow’s prayer and whatnot “interfere” with his football playing? I mean, he’s working hard, playing hard, and winning. That’s the primary part of his vocation, and the prayer thing hasn’t done anything to hurt that. The second part of his vocation is to have some sort of platform and notoriety, and do something with that. Lots of teams do it with charity and United Way stuff. He’s actually doing a good job on his own pushing character and whatnot. In his own words, “if all I go is score touchdowns and win games, at the end of the day, that’s not very much.” I find little substance in the critiques of Tebow other than “I don’t like it” and “I wouldn’t drop down on my knees it in my job” (but is your job as physical as Tebows? And do you not pray at all in your job?).

    Good point, Rev. Schroeder, and DonS, with Steve Johnson and Chad Ochocinco, how does Tim Tebow meet the standard of flamboyant?

    And Johnathan @11, you analogy makes no sense. That WOULD interfere with your vocation and it DOESN’T interfere with Tebow’s (he’s still working hard and winning). Also, no judge has told Tebow to change his actions, unless of course, you think you think ticked off fans hold that legitimate position. And Tim Tebow has never played the martyr card. You’re just uninformed.

  • The Jones

    And Richard and Johnathan,

    What if we had that same “it interferes with my vocation, so you shouldn’t do it in your vocation” standard for everybody? I wonder what the ministry would look like.

  • The Jones

    And Richard and Johnathan,

    What if we had that same “it interferes with my vocation, so you shouldn’t do it in your vocation” standard for everybody? I wonder what the ministry would look like.

  • http://www.whenisayrunrun.blogspot.com Andrew

    How is this any different than Troy Polamalu making the sign of the cross eastern style after every play?

  • http://www.whenisayrunrun.blogspot.com Andrew

    How is this any different than Troy Polamalu making the sign of the cross eastern style after every play?

  • Richard

    The Jones,

    If people were faithful to their callings and vocations, the world would be a lot different–and, in my estimation, better! Do what God has called you to, man! Why is that bad? And a detriment to ministry? God works our sanctification through our faithfulness in vocations in loving and serving our neighbor. We don’t have to put John 3:16 under our eyebrows to show our faithfulness.

  • Richard

    The Jones,

    If people were faithful to their callings and vocations, the world would be a lot different–and, in my estimation, better! Do what God has called you to, man! Why is that bad? And a detriment to ministry? God works our sanctification through our faithfulness in vocations in loving and serving our neighbor. We don’t have to put John 3:16 under our eyebrows to show our faithfulness.

  • The Jones

    Richard,

    I agree that if people were faithful to their callings and vocations, the world would be a lot better. The thing that kills me is that Tim Tebow IS doing this, but you are still perturbed by him. Why?

    And I called into question your judgement, I did not say that vocations and loving and serving your neighbor is a detriment to the ministry. I’m saying that it is poor judgement to judge somebody else’s vocation by the specifics of YOUR particular vocation. And yes, it WOULD be a detriment to the ministry (as well as football, accounting, government, teaching, artistic vocations, etc.) if that standard were accepted.

  • The Jones

    Richard,

    I agree that if people were faithful to their callings and vocations, the world would be a lot better. The thing that kills me is that Tim Tebow IS doing this, but you are still perturbed by him. Why?

    And I called into question your judgement, I did not say that vocations and loving and serving your neighbor is a detriment to the ministry. I’m saying that it is poor judgement to judge somebody else’s vocation by the specifics of YOUR particular vocation. And yes, it WOULD be a detriment to the ministry (as well as football, accounting, government, teaching, artistic vocations, etc.) if that standard were accepted.

  • Joe

    DonS asked: “Aren’t we called to glorify God in our vocation?” In short, if I understand what you mean by “glorify God,” No. In our vocations we are called to love our neighbor. I don’t write the best legal analysis I can to show my pagan neighbors how awesome my God is or to make God feel wonderful about Himself. Ideally, I write the best legal analysis I can because God has called me to love my neighbor and my neighbor needs me to defend his or her legal rights. (in reality I write the best legal argument I can because I like winning and I like my paycheck). Now if people see this and understand the doctrine of vocation they will see God using me despite my selfish desires to help other people. That is a glorious thing, but I don’t think I should add God to the signature block of my briefs.

  • Joe

    DonS asked: “Aren’t we called to glorify God in our vocation?” In short, if I understand what you mean by “glorify God,” No. In our vocations we are called to love our neighbor. I don’t write the best legal analysis I can to show my pagan neighbors how awesome my God is or to make God feel wonderful about Himself. Ideally, I write the best legal analysis I can because God has called me to love my neighbor and my neighbor needs me to defend his or her legal rights. (in reality I write the best legal argument I can because I like winning and I like my paycheck). Now if people see this and understand the doctrine of vocation they will see God using me despite my selfish desires to help other people. That is a glorious thing, but I don’t think I should add God to the signature block of my briefs.

  • Joe

    I consume a lot of football news – more than I should. An amount that might boarder on making football an idol and I have to say, I really don’t think the vast majority of Tebow detractors are objecting to his Christianity. They are objecting to his skill set as a QB. He is not a conventional QB. Denver is basically running a read option (i.e. a college level offense) in the NFL. People who make their living talking about football have been saying that this type of offense will not work at the pro level for at least a decade. Thus, Tebow’s success is an affront to their expertise. This is the context I see most of the Tebow hating. To be sure there are those who call out his Christianity and make fun of it – but in my experience those people make up less than 10% of those who spend time hating Tebow (at least those in the football world)

  • Joe

    I consume a lot of football news – more than I should. An amount that might boarder on making football an idol and I have to say, I really don’t think the vast majority of Tebow detractors are objecting to his Christianity. They are objecting to his skill set as a QB. He is not a conventional QB. Denver is basically running a read option (i.e. a college level offense) in the NFL. People who make their living talking about football have been saying that this type of offense will not work at the pro level for at least a decade. Thus, Tebow’s success is an affront to their expertise. This is the context I see most of the Tebow hating. To be sure there are those who call out his Christianity and make fun of it – but in my experience those people make up less than 10% of those who spend time hating Tebow (at least those in the football world)

  • mikeb

    Dennis @ 6

    A Packers fan? Naaa…. Everybody knows God roots for the Cowboys. That’s why Jerry Jones put a hole in the roof of the new stadium…

    (And this from a Chiefs fan whose best hope of making the playoffs is if Tebow pulls something whilst T-bowing.)

  • mikeb

    Dennis @ 6

    A Packers fan? Naaa…. Everybody knows God roots for the Cowboys. That’s why Jerry Jones put a hole in the roof of the new stadium…

    (And this from a Chiefs fan whose best hope of making the playoffs is if Tebow pulls something whilst T-bowing.)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Isn’t Tebow just another Culture-War touchstone? Sure seems like it’s playing out that way here, among other places.

    I don’t have a problem with the act itself, per se. I’m no football fan, but I’m pretty sure Tebow’s not the first player by a long shot to, well, “Tebow”.

    I do wonder about the theology behind it, though, and I believe that that theological aspect is worthy of consideration — and, if need be, criticism. Christians are not above reproach merely because they’re Christians.

    Of course, the act itself doesn’t give us a really good idea of the theology behind it, since it has precious little content (perhaps an argument against it, in itself?). That said, the occasions on which it’s used might offer some insight. As others here have mentioned, if it were only used after Tebow has done something good (I wouldn’t know; never seen the guy play football), then it might lend itself to a “theology of glory” interpretation.

    Certainly, a job well done is occasion for thankful prayer. Of course, trying times are, too. One would assume that Tebow also prays to God when he’s thrown an interception. But does he demonstrate this? And if not, why not?

    Ultimately, the only thing we can really go by are his own explanations. I found this quote from him on a widely-disseminated Facebook post from USA Today:

    My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important thing in my life. So any time I get an opportunity to tell Him that I love Him or given an opportunity to shout Him out on national TV, I’m gonna take that opportunity.

    I find it a bit odd that he views this “Tebowing” as “an opportunity to tell [Jesus] that [Tebow] love[s] Him”. I mean, isn’t that kind of backwards? What did the prayer that Jesus taught us focus on — our love for God, our his love for us? And, again, does Tebow take every opportunity to tell God how much Tebow loves him, or only those opportunities associated with football glory?

    Honestly, having given the matter far too much thought, I think my main criticism of “Tebowing” is how vague it is. And I submit this conversation as evidence. He’s saying … something … about God, but apparently no one knows what that something is.

    I mean, if you’re going to be hated as a Christian for your theology, then shouldn’t it be because you preached the full Law and Gospel, and not some ill-defined sporting Rorschach test?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Isn’t Tebow just another Culture-War touchstone? Sure seems like it’s playing out that way here, among other places.

    I don’t have a problem with the act itself, per se. I’m no football fan, but I’m pretty sure Tebow’s not the first player by a long shot to, well, “Tebow”.

    I do wonder about the theology behind it, though, and I believe that that theological aspect is worthy of consideration — and, if need be, criticism. Christians are not above reproach merely because they’re Christians.

    Of course, the act itself doesn’t give us a really good idea of the theology behind it, since it has precious little content (perhaps an argument against it, in itself?). That said, the occasions on which it’s used might offer some insight. As others here have mentioned, if it were only used after Tebow has done something good (I wouldn’t know; never seen the guy play football), then it might lend itself to a “theology of glory” interpretation.

    Certainly, a job well done is occasion for thankful prayer. Of course, trying times are, too. One would assume that Tebow also prays to God when he’s thrown an interception. But does he demonstrate this? And if not, why not?

    Ultimately, the only thing we can really go by are his own explanations. I found this quote from him on a widely-disseminated Facebook post from USA Today:

    My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important thing in my life. So any time I get an opportunity to tell Him that I love Him or given an opportunity to shout Him out on national TV, I’m gonna take that opportunity.

    I find it a bit odd that he views this “Tebowing” as “an opportunity to tell [Jesus] that [Tebow] love[s] Him”. I mean, isn’t that kind of backwards? What did the prayer that Jesus taught us focus on — our love for God, our his love for us? And, again, does Tebow take every opportunity to tell God how much Tebow loves him, or only those opportunities associated with football glory?

    Honestly, having given the matter far too much thought, I think my main criticism of “Tebowing” is how vague it is. And I submit this conversation as evidence. He’s saying … something … about God, but apparently no one knows what that something is.

    I mean, if you’re going to be hated as a Christian for your theology, then shouldn’t it be because you preached the full Law and Gospel, and not some ill-defined sporting Rorschach test?

  • Grace

    Tebow has a very obvious blessing from God, and a great talent. He uses it to further the Gospel and never forgets, where he received it.

    I wonder how many young people, both guys and gals have looked at Tebow, and thought about their own lives,…. perhaps being drawn to Christ because of one guy who isn’t ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. I praise God for this young man.

    Reading the displeasure of those who find fault, and then watching some of the halftime garbage, which of course receives all the snickers and jokes, but few complaints.

    John 3:16 has touched countless lives, either from the pulpit, radio, TV, and in this case a mans face, on a football field. There isn’t a time, when I hear that passage, that I don’t stop and pause for the greatness of our Savior who died for the whole world, yet so many turn their back on HIM.

    Then there is this question, by tODD:

    “I mean, if you’re going to be hated as a Christian for your theology, then shouldn’t it be because you preached the full Law and Gospel, and not some ill-defined sporting Rorschach test?

    I suppose you would like to see Tebow carry out a pulpit and preach a sermon in the middle of the game?

    I bet you’ve been waiting all week to use the word “Rorschach” even if it doesn’t fit.

    Rorschach – definition:
    – a projective tests using bilaterally symmetrical inkblots; subjects state what they see in the inkblot

  • Grace

    Tebow has a very obvious blessing from God, and a great talent. He uses it to further the Gospel and never forgets, where he received it.

    I wonder how many young people, both guys and gals have looked at Tebow, and thought about their own lives,…. perhaps being drawn to Christ because of one guy who isn’t ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. I praise God for this young man.

    Reading the displeasure of those who find fault, and then watching some of the halftime garbage, which of course receives all the snickers and jokes, but few complaints.

    John 3:16 has touched countless lives, either from the pulpit, radio, TV, and in this case a mans face, on a football field. There isn’t a time, when I hear that passage, that I don’t stop and pause for the greatness of our Savior who died for the whole world, yet so many turn their back on HIM.

    Then there is this question, by tODD:

    “I mean, if you’re going to be hated as a Christian for your theology, then shouldn’t it be because you preached the full Law and Gospel, and not some ill-defined sporting Rorschach test?

    I suppose you would like to see Tebow carry out a pulpit and preach a sermon in the middle of the game?

    I bet you’ve been waiting all week to use the word “Rorschach” even if it doesn’t fit.

    Rorschach – definition:
    – a projective tests using bilaterally symmetrical inkblots; subjects state what they see in the inkblot

  • mikeb

    I suppose you would like to see Tebow carry out a pulpit and preach a sermon in the middle of the game?

    Grace I sure hope this was supposed to be hyperbole. In any event, I wouldn’t mind. But do you think we could we get him to wait do this until when his Donkeys play my Chiefs?

  • mikeb

    I suppose you would like to see Tebow carry out a pulpit and preach a sermon in the middle of the game?

    Grace I sure hope this was supposed to be hyperbole. In any event, I wouldn’t mind. But do you think we could we get him to wait do this until when his Donkeys play my Chiefs?

  • Renee

    For some reason I found it very odd that this blog post has as many comments as it does. Especially since so many of the posts here on Cranach deal with the grave concerns of our time. I doubt those who crowded around Jesus were theologians. Tebow has a captive audience and is using the opportunity to tell people that Jesus Christ loves them and died for them.

  • Renee

    For some reason I found it very odd that this blog post has as many comments as it does. Especially since so many of the posts here on Cranach deal with the grave concerns of our time. I doubt those who crowded around Jesus were theologians. Tebow has a captive audience and is using the opportunity to tell people that Jesus Christ loves them and died for them.

  • DonS

    Joe @ 39: We are called to glorify God in all things, including our vocation (eg I Pet. 4:11, I Cor. 6:20, Rom. 15:5-6). That is why we are created. Loving our neighbor is glorifying God. Your interpretation that glorifying God is only a verbal or outwardly direct expression is too broad. As I said above, there is a time and a place for outward expression of our faith, and the courtroom or a legal brief do not qualify. However, there are certainly other aspects of our legal practice which are appropriate for an open expression of our love for Christ, wouldn’t you agree? And an outward expression might be more appropriate for certain personality types than it is for others, right? At this point in time, I can find no legitimate reason to condemn Tebow for his public profession of faith. None.

  • DonS

    Joe @ 39: We are called to glorify God in all things, including our vocation (eg I Pet. 4:11, I Cor. 6:20, Rom. 15:5-6). That is why we are created. Loving our neighbor is glorifying God. Your interpretation that glorifying God is only a verbal or outwardly direct expression is too broad. As I said above, there is a time and a place for outward expression of our faith, and the courtroom or a legal brief do not qualify. However, there are certainly other aspects of our legal practice which are appropriate for an open expression of our love for Christ, wouldn’t you agree? And an outward expression might be more appropriate for certain personality types than it is for others, right? At this point in time, I can find no legitimate reason to condemn Tebow for his public profession of faith. None.

  • DonS

    “too broad” should be “too narrow” @ 46.

  • DonS

    “too broad” should be “too narrow” @ 46.

  • DonS

    Jonathan @ 33: “But the point by some is that Tebow’s actions are inappropriate in any venue, football or elsewhere.” — Agreed. That is the point by some. But why are they inappropriate? And who are the “some”, that they get to be the arbiters of the level of expression of faith that is appropriate?

    But I’m curious that you say Tebow’s “expressions of faith” never vary. I don’t watch many Bronco games, but is it true he publicly reacts to throwing an interception as to a touchdown? Or are you saying that after a game, win or lose, he reacts the same?

    I’m not sure where you got the idea that I said Tebow’s expressions “never vary”. I said that he’s consistent in giving glory to God in victory and defeat. Of course you don’t throw your arms in the air and exult when you throw an interception. That would be stupid, and an affront to your teammates. But his attitude seems to be one of humility, gratitude, and grace, win or lose. A rare and refreshing thing.

  • DonS

    Jonathan @ 33: “But the point by some is that Tebow’s actions are inappropriate in any venue, football or elsewhere.” — Agreed. That is the point by some. But why are they inappropriate? And who are the “some”, that they get to be the arbiters of the level of expression of faith that is appropriate?

    But I’m curious that you say Tebow’s “expressions of faith” never vary. I don’t watch many Bronco games, but is it true he publicly reacts to throwing an interception as to a touchdown? Or are you saying that after a game, win or lose, he reacts the same?

    I’m not sure where you got the idea that I said Tebow’s expressions “never vary”. I said that he’s consistent in giving glory to God in victory and defeat. Of course you don’t throw your arms in the air and exult when you throw an interception. That would be stupid, and an affront to your teammates. But his attitude seems to be one of humility, gratitude, and grace, win or lose. A rare and refreshing thing.

  • Grace

    mikeb @ 44

    I believe Tebow has done more to spread the Gospel on a playing field, just by his actions, and his life. He’s the real deal.

    We watch a lot of football at our house, .. in fact, my husband often has two TV’s on in different rooms, at the same time :lol: – There is lots of joy, just watching my husband laugh and moan, roar and tell the coaches how to deal with the players…… hotdogs and all.

  • Grace

    mikeb @ 44

    I believe Tebow has done more to spread the Gospel on a playing field, just by his actions, and his life. He’s the real deal.

    We watch a lot of football at our house, .. in fact, my husband often has two TV’s on in different rooms, at the same time :lol: – There is lots of joy, just watching my husband laugh and moan, roar and tell the coaches how to deal with the players…… hotdogs and all.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said:

    I wonder how many young people, both guys and gals have looked at Tebow, and thought about their own lives,…. perhaps being drawn to Christ because of one guy who isn’t ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. (@43)

    I believe Tebow has done more to spread the Gospel on a playing field, just by his actions, and his life. (@49)

    It’s quite possible I’m missing something, but what, exactly, has Tebow done to point people to “the Gospel of Christ”?

    I mean, I know he was in a pretty infamous (and, as it happened, vague) pro-life commercial. Which has something to do with morality, and therefore Law, though not Jesus or the Gospel. And he bows in apparent prayer after doing something good on the football field. Which, again, does not tell anyone anything about Jesus or the Gospel.

    So is it just the general knowledge that he is a Christian? Is that the message you’re getting from him? Or is it something else? Because the one quote I’ve read from him on the topic…

    My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important thing in my life. So any time I get an opportunity to tell Him that I love Him or given an opportunity to shout Him out on national TV, I’m gonna take that opportunity.

    …doesn’t “spread the Gospel”, either. Because it doesn’t say a thing about what Jesus has done. Is the good news that Tebow loves Jesus? That Tebow values Jesus over everything else?

    Again, it’s very possible I’m missing some grander statement from Tebow himself (I only see what the newspaper and Facebook put in front of me, when it comes to sports), but if all we’re talking about is his kneeling on the grass, then no, I don’t think his actions are all that stellar in “spreading the Gospel”.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said:

    I wonder how many young people, both guys and gals have looked at Tebow, and thought about their own lives,…. perhaps being drawn to Christ because of one guy who isn’t ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. (@43)

    I believe Tebow has done more to spread the Gospel on a playing field, just by his actions, and his life. (@49)

    It’s quite possible I’m missing something, but what, exactly, has Tebow done to point people to “the Gospel of Christ”?

    I mean, I know he was in a pretty infamous (and, as it happened, vague) pro-life commercial. Which has something to do with morality, and therefore Law, though not Jesus or the Gospel. And he bows in apparent prayer after doing something good on the football field. Which, again, does not tell anyone anything about Jesus or the Gospel.

    So is it just the general knowledge that he is a Christian? Is that the message you’re getting from him? Or is it something else? Because the one quote I’ve read from him on the topic…

    My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most important thing in my life. So any time I get an opportunity to tell Him that I love Him or given an opportunity to shout Him out on national TV, I’m gonna take that opportunity.

    …doesn’t “spread the Gospel”, either. Because it doesn’t say a thing about what Jesus has done. Is the good news that Tebow loves Jesus? That Tebow values Jesus over everything else?

    Again, it’s very possible I’m missing some grander statement from Tebow himself (I only see what the newspaper and Facebook put in front of me, when it comes to sports), but if all we’re talking about is his kneeling on the grass, then no, I don’t think his actions are all that stellar in “spreading the Gospel”.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS, you’re not being consistent in your judgment here. You said (@48):

    “But the point by some is that Tebow’s actions are inappropriate in any venue, football or elsewhere.” — Agreed. That is the point by some. But why are they inappropriate? And who are the “some”, that they get to be the arbiters of the level of expression of faith that is appropriate?

    And yet, you also said, two comments earlier (@46):

    As I said above, there is a time and a place for outward expression of our faith, and the courtroom or a legal brief do not qualify.

    So I’ll ask you your own question: Why are such expressions of faith inappropriate in a courtroom or a legal brief? And what qualifies you to be an arbiter of the level of expression of faith that is appropriate?

    As it happens, I agree with you about the legal issues. I think Jonathan makes a good point (@11) along those lines, if sarcastically. But if we — including you — can say that’s not appropriate, then at least we can question whether Tebow’s actions are also appropriate in their context.

    Anyhow, you also said:

    We are called to glorify God in all things, including our vocation.

    For what it’s worth, I’m not sure you’ve understood the doctrine of vocation here. It doesn’t just refer to our jobs or careers. And we all have more than one vocation. Moreover, the whole point of this doctrine is that God is glorified through our vocations — not because we give extra effort on our part or a “shout out” to God as Tebow does, but because He works through us to show love to our neighbor.

    Loving our neighbor is glorifying God.

    Indeed. But what does that have to do with Tebow, exactly? Does he show love to his neighbors when he bows on the field? How?

    Finally, you said:

    I’m not sure where you got the idea that I said Tebow’s expressions “never vary”. I said that he’s consistent in giving glory to God in victory and defeat.

    Well, he probably got it from your comment (@29), where you said, and I quote:

    Somehow you have conflated Steve Johnson’s clearly outrageous tweet with Tebow’s expressions of faith — which have never, in any way, to my knowledge, varied depending upon success or failure …

    :) But regardless, does Tebow do the kneeling pose after he flubs a pass? That’s what your claim would imply.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS, you’re not being consistent in your judgment here. You said (@48):

    “But the point by some is that Tebow’s actions are inappropriate in any venue, football or elsewhere.” — Agreed. That is the point by some. But why are they inappropriate? And who are the “some”, that they get to be the arbiters of the level of expression of faith that is appropriate?

    And yet, you also said, two comments earlier (@46):

    As I said above, there is a time and a place for outward expression of our faith, and the courtroom or a legal brief do not qualify.

    So I’ll ask you your own question: Why are such expressions of faith inappropriate in a courtroom or a legal brief? And what qualifies you to be an arbiter of the level of expression of faith that is appropriate?

    As it happens, I agree with you about the legal issues. I think Jonathan makes a good point (@11) along those lines, if sarcastically. But if we — including you — can say that’s not appropriate, then at least we can question whether Tebow’s actions are also appropriate in their context.

    Anyhow, you also said:

    We are called to glorify God in all things, including our vocation.

    For what it’s worth, I’m not sure you’ve understood the doctrine of vocation here. It doesn’t just refer to our jobs or careers. And we all have more than one vocation. Moreover, the whole point of this doctrine is that God is glorified through our vocations — not because we give extra effort on our part or a “shout out” to God as Tebow does, but because He works through us to show love to our neighbor.

    Loving our neighbor is glorifying God.

    Indeed. But what does that have to do with Tebow, exactly? Does he show love to his neighbors when he bows on the field? How?

    Finally, you said:

    I’m not sure where you got the idea that I said Tebow’s expressions “never vary”. I said that he’s consistent in giving glory to God in victory and defeat.

    Well, he probably got it from your comment (@29), where you said, and I quote:

    Somehow you have conflated Steve Johnson’s clearly outrageous tweet with Tebow’s expressions of faith — which have never, in any way, to my knowledge, varied depending upon success or failure …

    :) But regardless, does Tebow do the kneeling pose after he flubs a pass? That’s what your claim would imply.

  • Richard

    Grace,

    My life–or Tebow’s life or actions–is NOT the Gospel. I agree with tODD; I think we are over-stating his witness here. This is what happens, though, when we confuse vocation, and make one’s vocation something other than what God has called us to do.

  • Richard

    Grace,

    My life–or Tebow’s life or actions–is NOT the Gospel. I agree with tODD; I think we are over-stating his witness here. This is what happens, though, when we confuse vocation, and make one’s vocation something other than what God has called us to do.

  • DonS

    tODD, when you are in court, there are very specific local rules, as well as established behavioral protocols in effect. It is the judge’s courtroom, not yours. It is a very unique environment, with well understood protocols. Your job is to make sure that you represent your client well and respect the court and the judge’s sensibilities. Apples and oranges from a football field or even a cubicle. But, you knew all that.

    And as for the rest of your comment, I know vocation isn’t just your job or career. It includes, however, your job or career.

    Moreover, the whole point of this doctrine is that God is glorified through our vocations — not because we give extra effort on our part or a “shout out” to God as Tebow does, but because He works through us to show love to our neighbor.

    How, exactly, do you know that Tebow’s open acknowledgement of his love for Christ doesn’t love his neighbor? What about the fan who is drawn to Christ through Tebow’s testimony, and goes to his local church or reads his Bible as a result? I would be surprised if people haven’t come to Christ because of his outreach, and evangelizing is certainly loving your neighbor, isn’t it? The Body of Christ is diverse. Just because we might not be comfortable with expressing our faith the way Tebow does, doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Or that he’s not loving his neigbor the right way, as if there is one of those.

    Fair enough on the “never vary” point ;-) . So, I did say that. But, not in the way Jonathan was implying — I didn’t mean that his emotion is the same no matter what — he’s not an automaton. What I meant, of course, is that he is consistent in his expression of faith in good times and in bad.

  • DonS

    tODD, when you are in court, there are very specific local rules, as well as established behavioral protocols in effect. It is the judge’s courtroom, not yours. It is a very unique environment, with well understood protocols. Your job is to make sure that you represent your client well and respect the court and the judge’s sensibilities. Apples and oranges from a football field or even a cubicle. But, you knew all that.

    And as for the rest of your comment, I know vocation isn’t just your job or career. It includes, however, your job or career.

    Moreover, the whole point of this doctrine is that God is glorified through our vocations — not because we give extra effort on our part or a “shout out” to God as Tebow does, but because He works through us to show love to our neighbor.

    How, exactly, do you know that Tebow’s open acknowledgement of his love for Christ doesn’t love his neighbor? What about the fan who is drawn to Christ through Tebow’s testimony, and goes to his local church or reads his Bible as a result? I would be surprised if people haven’t come to Christ because of his outreach, and evangelizing is certainly loving your neighbor, isn’t it? The Body of Christ is diverse. Just because we might not be comfortable with expressing our faith the way Tebow does, doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Or that he’s not loving his neigbor the right way, as if there is one of those.

    Fair enough on the “never vary” point ;-) . So, I did say that. But, not in the way Jonathan was implying — I didn’t mean that his emotion is the same no matter what — he’s not an automaton. What I meant, of course, is that he is consistent in his expression of faith in good times and in bad.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 52: How do you know God has not called Tebow to do what he’s doing? That’s the bottom line here. How do you know, so that you feel comfortable sitting in judgment?

  • DonS

    Richard @ 52: How do you know God has not called Tebow to do what he’s doing? That’s the bottom line here. How do you know, so that you feel comfortable sitting in judgment?

  • Grace

    Richard,

    You stated: ” I agree with tODD; I think we are over-stating his witness here. This is what happens, though, when we confuse vocation, and make one’s vocation something other than what God has called us to do.

    Did God share with you what he desires Tebow to do? Who are you to judge this man?

    I see a lot of envy, not just about this man, but others who stand out. Envy is a dangerous thing, it destroys peoples lives, they see little to joy in others, rather finding fault, and excuses to voice their displeasure.

    Many times, it is ones life that sets the example – their witness, belief in the LORD Jesus Christ.

    Vocation – Greek, simply means “calling” klesis – klay’-sis – - whatever one is called to do, be it teaching school, working in a factory, nurse, lawyer, doctor, or an athlete it is a ‘calling’ –

    Some, just like Tebow are in the public eye, …. in his case it’s football, a sport millions of people watch and enjoy. He stands out, not just his ability, but his stand for the LORD. Sometimes it’s only something so small as a John 3:16 under his eye, but that verse is known to most people in this country and Europe, two name just two areas. It speaks VOLUMES – if that’s what Tebow feels led to do, I’m glad he puts it out there for everyone to see.

  • Grace

    Richard,

    You stated: ” I agree with tODD; I think we are over-stating his witness here. This is what happens, though, when we confuse vocation, and make one’s vocation something other than what God has called us to do.

    Did God share with you what he desires Tebow to do? Who are you to judge this man?

    I see a lot of envy, not just about this man, but others who stand out. Envy is a dangerous thing, it destroys peoples lives, they see little to joy in others, rather finding fault, and excuses to voice their displeasure.

    Many times, it is ones life that sets the example – their witness, belief in the LORD Jesus Christ.

    Vocation – Greek, simply means “calling” klesis – klay’-sis – - whatever one is called to do, be it teaching school, working in a factory, nurse, lawyer, doctor, or an athlete it is a ‘calling’ –

    Some, just like Tebow are in the public eye, …. in his case it’s football, a sport millions of people watch and enjoy. He stands out, not just his ability, but his stand for the LORD. Sometimes it’s only something so small as a John 3:16 under his eye, but that verse is known to most people in this country and Europe, two name just two areas. It speaks VOLUMES – if that’s what Tebow feels led to do, I’m glad he puts it out there for everyone to see.

  • Grace

    DonS @ 54 – sorry, I was in the midst of posting – then found you had posted almost the same thing before me.

  • Grace

    DonS @ 54 – sorry, I was in the midst of posting – then found you had posted almost the same thing before me.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS said (@53):

    tODD, when you are in court, there are very specific local rules, as well as established behavioral protocols in effect. It is the judge’s courtroom, not yours. It is a very unique environment, with well understood protocols. Your job is to make sure that you represent your client well and respect the court and the judge’s sensibilities. Apples and oranges from a football field…

    Well, no. The football field also has “very specific local rules, as well as established behavioral protocols in effect.” And it’s a field that is owned by other people, not Tebow. It, too, is a “very unique environment, with well understood protocols”. Tebow’s job is to make sure that he represents his team well and respect the league and the referee’s sensibilities.

    But you still haven’t answered my questions: (1) why would those aforementioned things specifically be inappropriate in a legal setting and (2) who made you arbiter of what’s appropriate or not in the courtroom? Because you appear to be using a double standard here.

    How, exactly, do you know that Tebow’s open acknowledgement of his love for Christ doesn’t love his neighbor?

    Love isn’t an esoteric thing, Don. People know it when they are shown love. Or do you constantly find yourself wondering whether your wife is showing you love in her daily actions? I don’t in my life, because it’s clear when my wife is showing me love.

    Obviously, kneeling down on the field after a successful play has brought attention to Tebow. If he didn’t know it would when he started the practice, he can’t claim ignorance of that fact now. Regardless, what about that habit of his shows love to his neighbor? It’s not a hard question.

    Again, are we just talking about that, or is there something else he’s done that tells people about Jesus? Because, again, the comments from him that I’ve read in the newspaper have not told people about what Jesus has done — no, he talked about what Tebow has done, and how much Tebow loves Jesus.

    What I meant, of course, is that he is consistent in his expression of faith in good times and in bad.

    And, once again, I ask: does Tebow kneel down and pray after he’s thrown an interception? That is, after all, the “expression of faith” that we’re mainly talking about here, isn’t it? So is that expression “consistent” in “good times and bad” on the field? From what I’ve read, the answer is no. So what is the base for your claim?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    DonS said (@53):

    tODD, when you are in court, there are very specific local rules, as well as established behavioral protocols in effect. It is the judge’s courtroom, not yours. It is a very unique environment, with well understood protocols. Your job is to make sure that you represent your client well and respect the court and the judge’s sensibilities. Apples and oranges from a football field…

    Well, no. The football field also has “very specific local rules, as well as established behavioral protocols in effect.” And it’s a field that is owned by other people, not Tebow. It, too, is a “very unique environment, with well understood protocols”. Tebow’s job is to make sure that he represents his team well and respect the league and the referee’s sensibilities.

    But you still haven’t answered my questions: (1) why would those aforementioned things specifically be inappropriate in a legal setting and (2) who made you arbiter of what’s appropriate or not in the courtroom? Because you appear to be using a double standard here.

    How, exactly, do you know that Tebow’s open acknowledgement of his love for Christ doesn’t love his neighbor?

    Love isn’t an esoteric thing, Don. People know it when they are shown love. Or do you constantly find yourself wondering whether your wife is showing you love in her daily actions? I don’t in my life, because it’s clear when my wife is showing me love.

    Obviously, kneeling down on the field after a successful play has brought attention to Tebow. If he didn’t know it would when he started the practice, he can’t claim ignorance of that fact now. Regardless, what about that habit of his shows love to his neighbor? It’s not a hard question.

    Again, are we just talking about that, or is there something else he’s done that tells people about Jesus? Because, again, the comments from him that I’ve read in the newspaper have not told people about what Jesus has done — no, he talked about what Tebow has done, and how much Tebow loves Jesus.

    What I meant, of course, is that he is consistent in his expression of faith in good times and in bad.

    And, once again, I ask: does Tebow kneel down and pray after he’s thrown an interception? That is, after all, the “expression of faith” that we’re mainly talking about here, isn’t it? So is that expression “consistent” in “good times and bad” on the field? From what I’ve read, the answer is no. So what is the base for your claim?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@55):

    I see a lot of envy, not just about this man, but others who stand out. Envy is a dangerous thing, it destroys peoples lives, they see little to joy in others, rather finding fault, and excuses to voice their displeasure.

    I see it too. But we’re not talking about your problems with Martin Luther right now, Grace.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@55):

    I see a lot of envy, not just about this man, but others who stand out. Envy is a dangerous thing, it destroys peoples lives, they see little to joy in others, rather finding fault, and excuses to voice their displeasure.

    I see it too. But we’re not talking about your problems with Martin Luther right now, Grace.

  • Richard

    DonS,
    Actually, it isn’t apples and oranges. I appear in administrative legal proceedings as an attorney, where we don’t have written rules of procedure. Nevertheless, it is frowned upon if I should suddenly fall on my knees and pray or do a high five after I make an all too rare compelling argument. Why is that? Because I am violating my vocation–which is to best represent the government’s interest as an attorney. Tebow’s vocation is to play football–that is what he WAS HIRED to do. Why is it offensive and judgemental to point this out?

  • Richard

    DonS,
    Actually, it isn’t apples and oranges. I appear in administrative legal proceedings as an attorney, where we don’t have written rules of procedure. Nevertheless, it is frowned upon if I should suddenly fall on my knees and pray or do a high five after I make an all too rare compelling argument. Why is that? Because I am violating my vocation–which is to best represent the government’s interest as an attorney. Tebow’s vocation is to play football–that is what he WAS HIRED to do. Why is it offensive and judgemental to point this out?

  • Michael B.

    The gospels tell us that Jesus loved the Pharisees constant displays of faith.

  • Michael B.

    The gospels tell us that Jesus loved the Pharisees constant displays of faith.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 57:

    But you still haven’t answered my questions: (1) why would those aforementioned things specifically be inappropriate in a legal setting and (2) who made you arbiter of what’s appropriate or not in

    The local court rules regulate what you can put in a brief and what you can’t. There are also page limitations. Including a Gospel presentation in the brief would be inappropriate and a poor service to your client. Behavioral codes in a courtroom are also very strict, making a “Tebow” pose inappropriate in that setting, and very likely an affront to the judge. However, I have quietly bowed my head in prayer before a courtroom matter, on those rare occasions when I am in the courtroom. I am not the arbiter, but the judge is, and my experience tells me that engaging in such behavior in a courtroom would be very poor judgment. Spiking the football would be as well.

    Yes, there are rules on the field, but they are largely related to the playing rules for the game, and permit a certain amount of self-expression by players. Of course, should one’s actions be regarded by the officials as excessive or taunting your opponent, you can be flagged. In the context of the football field, Tebow’s actions are universally accepted as being within the rules of the game, and within reasonable behavioral bounds from the point of view of not being penalized by an official. So, bottom line, I am not using a double standard because we are talking about the difference between mere judgment as to appropriateness (Tebow), and potential sanction, reprimand, or censure (judge in courtroom).

    Obviously, kneeling down on the field after a successful play has brought attention to Tebow. If he didn’t know it would when he started the practice, he can’t claim ignorance of that fact now. Regardless, what about that habit of his shows love to his neighbor? It’s not a hard question.

    Again, are we just talking about that, or is there something else he’s done that tells people about Jesus? Because, again, the comments from him that I’ve read in the newspaper have not told people about what Jesus has done — no, he talked about what Tebow has done, and how much Tebow loves Jesus.

    Tebow doesn’t just kneel on a field. He comes from a missionary family — lived in the Philippines for years, and regularly returns. He undertakes a lot of other ministry here in the states as well. The Gospel is God’s love to us, and sharing the Gospel — pointing people toward Christ — is certainly loving one’s neighbor.

    And, I believe you have a misconception about “Tebowing”. I’ve never seen him do it during a game. Typically, it’s before and/or after a game, win or lose.

  • DonS

    tODD @ 57:

    But you still haven’t answered my questions: (1) why would those aforementioned things specifically be inappropriate in a legal setting and (2) who made you arbiter of what’s appropriate or not in

    The local court rules regulate what you can put in a brief and what you can’t. There are also page limitations. Including a Gospel presentation in the brief would be inappropriate and a poor service to your client. Behavioral codes in a courtroom are also very strict, making a “Tebow” pose inappropriate in that setting, and very likely an affront to the judge. However, I have quietly bowed my head in prayer before a courtroom matter, on those rare occasions when I am in the courtroom. I am not the arbiter, but the judge is, and my experience tells me that engaging in such behavior in a courtroom would be very poor judgment. Spiking the football would be as well.

    Yes, there are rules on the field, but they are largely related to the playing rules for the game, and permit a certain amount of self-expression by players. Of course, should one’s actions be regarded by the officials as excessive or taunting your opponent, you can be flagged. In the context of the football field, Tebow’s actions are universally accepted as being within the rules of the game, and within reasonable behavioral bounds from the point of view of not being penalized by an official. So, bottom line, I am not using a double standard because we are talking about the difference between mere judgment as to appropriateness (Tebow), and potential sanction, reprimand, or censure (judge in courtroom).

    Obviously, kneeling down on the field after a successful play has brought attention to Tebow. If he didn’t know it would when he started the practice, he can’t claim ignorance of that fact now. Regardless, what about that habit of his shows love to his neighbor? It’s not a hard question.

    Again, are we just talking about that, or is there something else he’s done that tells people about Jesus? Because, again, the comments from him that I’ve read in the newspaper have not told people about what Jesus has done — no, he talked about what Tebow has done, and how much Tebow loves Jesus.

    Tebow doesn’t just kneel on a field. He comes from a missionary family — lived in the Philippines for years, and regularly returns. He undertakes a lot of other ministry here in the states as well. The Gospel is God’s love to us, and sharing the Gospel — pointing people toward Christ — is certainly loving one’s neighbor.

    And, I believe you have a misconception about “Tebowing”. I’ve never seen him do it during a game. Typically, it’s before and/or after a game, win or lose.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 59: I fully answered your argument @ 61.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 59: I fully answered your argument @ 61.

  • DonS

    Michael B. @ 60: It was not the Pharisee’s constant displays of faith that bothered Jesus. It was their hearts. And none of us are in a position to judge Tim Tebow’s heart.

  • DonS

    Michael B. @ 60: It was not the Pharisee’s constant displays of faith that bothered Jesus. It was their hearts. And none of us are in a position to judge Tim Tebow’s heart.

  • Richard

    DonS,

    Actually, you made my point. Doing these things would impinge on your vocation as an attorney. Tebow could do just as well uttering a silent prayer of thankfulness to God as you or I would do after a case. Is it somehow “more spiritual” or a “presentation of the Gospel” to do this in a kneeling position in front of thousands of football fans? How about playing football to the best of your ability and encouraging your team-mates? Again, is David Freese, an LCMS member, less spiritual because he didn’t give glory to God when he talked to TV reporters after the World Series. He “just” did his vocation well?

  • Richard

    DonS,

    Actually, you made my point. Doing these things would impinge on your vocation as an attorney. Tebow could do just as well uttering a silent prayer of thankfulness to God as you or I would do after a case. Is it somehow “more spiritual” or a “presentation of the Gospel” to do this in a kneeling position in front of thousands of football fans? How about playing football to the best of your ability and encouraging your team-mates? Again, is David Freese, an LCMS member, less spiritual because he didn’t give glory to God when he talked to TV reporters after the World Series. He “just” did his vocation well?

  • Matt

    I have no problem with Tebow’s attempts to bring glory to God with his football career. It seems as if some of the criticism comes from the belief that Tebow only shows emphasizes his faith after scoring touchdowns or winning games. Actually, I’ve heard he’s done mission works overseas, and has spread his faith via prison outreach programs.

    In contrast to Tebow, I’ve heard Aaron Rodgers, a Christian, talk about how he can spread the gospel by using the phrase “spread the gospel at all times, with words if necessary.” He wants people to see what kind of person he is by his actions and that’ll give him an opportunity to talk about his faith. I’m a huge Packer fan so I follow Rodgers very closely. But I have a suspicion that unless you’ve actually followed Rodgers closely you have no idea how important his faith is to him. So honestly, even though I admire Rodgers for his skill on the football field and I do think Rodgers is a Christian who has thought deeply on how best to spread his faith, I think I prefer Tebow’s method. At least with Tebow, it’s clear that he believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins and that that knowledge is something everyone should be aware of. Unless you’ve hung on every word of Rodgers, who is in the media just as often if not more, you don’t get that impression.

  • Matt

    I have no problem with Tebow’s attempts to bring glory to God with his football career. It seems as if some of the criticism comes from the belief that Tebow only shows emphasizes his faith after scoring touchdowns or winning games. Actually, I’ve heard he’s done mission works overseas, and has spread his faith via prison outreach programs.

    In contrast to Tebow, I’ve heard Aaron Rodgers, a Christian, talk about how he can spread the gospel by using the phrase “spread the gospel at all times, with words if necessary.” He wants people to see what kind of person he is by his actions and that’ll give him an opportunity to talk about his faith. I’m a huge Packer fan so I follow Rodgers very closely. But I have a suspicion that unless you’ve actually followed Rodgers closely you have no idea how important his faith is to him. So honestly, even though I admire Rodgers for his skill on the football field and I do think Rodgers is a Christian who has thought deeply on how best to spread his faith, I think I prefer Tebow’s method. At least with Tebow, it’s clear that he believes that Jesus Christ died for his sins and that that knowledge is something everyone should be aware of. Unless you’ve hung on every word of Rodgers, who is in the media just as often if not more, you don’t get that impression.

  • Grace

    Richard @ 64

    “Tebow could do just as well uttering a silent prayer of thankfulness to God as you or I would do after a case.”

    Richard, did the LORD speak to you, .. to give your advice as to how Tebow should thank HIM?

    There is no comparison between a lawyers position and that of a football player.

    ” Is it somehow “more spiritual” or a “presentation of the Gospel” to do this in a kneeling position in front of thousands of football fans? “

    Are you ‘mocking the way Tebow prays, whether it’s on his knees or standing up, or any other sort of stance to praise of God?

    “How about playing football to the best of your ability and encouraging your team-mates?

    Have Tebow’s team accused him of not “encouraging” them. What do you know about Tebows friendships among the team?

  • Grace

    Richard @ 64

    “Tebow could do just as well uttering a silent prayer of thankfulness to God as you or I would do after a case.”

    Richard, did the LORD speak to you, .. to give your advice as to how Tebow should thank HIM?

    There is no comparison between a lawyers position and that of a football player.

    ” Is it somehow “more spiritual” or a “presentation of the Gospel” to do this in a kneeling position in front of thousands of football fans? “

    Are you ‘mocking the way Tebow prays, whether it’s on his knees or standing up, or any other sort of stance to praise of God?

    “How about playing football to the best of your ability and encouraging your team-mates?

    Have Tebow’s team accused him of not “encouraging” them. What do you know about Tebows friendships among the team?

  • Joe

    Well Don – if were going to rules, be reminded that “going to the ground” as a celebration of a touch down is illegal under the NFL’s rules. It is excessive celebration and should get you a 15 yard penalty. So, Tebowing is just as wrong as praying after a killer cross-examination of an expert witness.

  • Joe

    Well Don – if were going to rules, be reminded that “going to the ground” as a celebration of a touch down is illegal under the NFL’s rules. It is excessive celebration and should get you a 15 yard penalty. So, Tebowing is just as wrong as praying after a killer cross-examination of an expert witness.

  • Joe

    Matt – I ask this in all seriousness, when have you every heard Tebow mention the Christ on the cross? I am not trying to disparage Tebow, but I have watched the guy’s entire carer. As a home-schooling Christian, I wanted nothing less than Tebow (a home-schooled kid from a Christian family) to be wildly successful. Yet I have never once heard him proclaim the actual Gospel (i.e. that Christ died for our sins). I hear a lot about how much he loves Jesus and how important it is for him to tell everyone how much he loves Jesus. And, I don’t fault him for being inarticulate about his faith, but your comment assumes facts not in evidence. That is you are giving him credit for something that to my knowledge he has never actually done – proclaim Christ crucified. Yes he wore John 3:16 on his eye black once or twice but he gets to hold press conference every week. If your gonna preach, then preach what the Holy Writ implores us to preach. Christ crucified. 1 Corinthians 1:23.

  • Joe

    Matt – I ask this in all seriousness, when have you every heard Tebow mention the Christ on the cross? I am not trying to disparage Tebow, but I have watched the guy’s entire carer. As a home-schooling Christian, I wanted nothing less than Tebow (a home-schooled kid from a Christian family) to be wildly successful. Yet I have never once heard him proclaim the actual Gospel (i.e. that Christ died for our sins). I hear a lot about how much he loves Jesus and how important it is for him to tell everyone how much he loves Jesus. And, I don’t fault him for being inarticulate about his faith, but your comment assumes facts not in evidence. That is you are giving him credit for something that to my knowledge he has never actually done – proclaim Christ crucified. Yes he wore John 3:16 on his eye black once or twice but he gets to hold press conference every week. If your gonna preach, then preach what the Holy Writ implores us to preach. Christ crucified. 1 Corinthians 1:23.

  • Matt

    Joe – You’re probably right that Tebow doesn’t emphasize Christ crucified – my mistake. I haven’t followed his career that closely. I don’t catch his post game news conferences. Much of what I hear about Tebow has been regurgitated through the media before it gets to me. His emphasis may be wrong, but the conversation spawned by this post has been about whether his actions are like that of pharisee or if he truly wants to spread the good news of Christ. I see a lot of evidence of the latter and not much of the former. The fact – or at least from what you’re telling me – that Tebow doesn’t emphasize Christ crucified could be for a few reasons. I could be completely wrong, but he seems like a garden variety evangelical, and I also get the impression that he isn’t that intelligent. So because of that, he might just be trying to fit the message of Jesus into whatever media sound bites will allow and that means talking about how much he loves Jesus. There is nothing wrong with that at all, in my opinion – it’s a good thing, even if the emphasis is quite off. Like you stated, I do remember his wearing John 3:16 and that is gospel that could bring someone to look up the verse and start thinking seriously about what Christianity is. I think he’s trying his best to spread his faith through his vocation. You’ve said you’ve followed Tebow’s entire career so I assume you’re an avid football fan. I’m curious if you knew that Aaron Rodgers – who as Super Bowl champion and sure fire MVP is probably the one player who has quite a bit more media attention than Tebow – is a Christian who takes his faith seriously? Even if the Tebow’s outreach hasn’t always emphasized the gospel, would you not say that he’s still doing a better job of it than 95% of football players?

  • Matt

    Joe – You’re probably right that Tebow doesn’t emphasize Christ crucified – my mistake. I haven’t followed his career that closely. I don’t catch his post game news conferences. Much of what I hear about Tebow has been regurgitated through the media before it gets to me. His emphasis may be wrong, but the conversation spawned by this post has been about whether his actions are like that of pharisee or if he truly wants to spread the good news of Christ. I see a lot of evidence of the latter and not much of the former. The fact – or at least from what you’re telling me – that Tebow doesn’t emphasize Christ crucified could be for a few reasons. I could be completely wrong, but he seems like a garden variety evangelical, and I also get the impression that he isn’t that intelligent. So because of that, he might just be trying to fit the message of Jesus into whatever media sound bites will allow and that means talking about how much he loves Jesus. There is nothing wrong with that at all, in my opinion – it’s a good thing, even if the emphasis is quite off. Like you stated, I do remember his wearing John 3:16 and that is gospel that could bring someone to look up the verse and start thinking seriously about what Christianity is. I think he’s trying his best to spread his faith through his vocation. You’ve said you’ve followed Tebow’s entire career so I assume you’re an avid football fan. I’m curious if you knew that Aaron Rodgers – who as Super Bowl champion and sure fire MVP is probably the one player who has quite a bit more media attention than Tebow – is a Christian who takes his faith seriously? Even if the Tebow’s outreach hasn’t always emphasized the gospel, would you not say that he’s still doing a better job of it than 95% of football players?

  • DonS

    Joe @ 67: Hmmm. I can’t find the the actual text of the NFL rule on excessive celebration, but my recollection is that leaving your feet or using a prop, or taunting an opposing player, are prohibited. “Going to the ground” is in the context of things like the “worm crawl”, where you leave your feet. Kneeling is not leaving your feet, and thus wouldn’t qualify as going to the ground.

    Moreover, does Tebow even kneel like that after touchdowns? I’ve never seen him do it in game, only before or after. Maybe I’ve missed it, since you and tODD both seem to think he does. But, I don’t think so.

  • DonS

    Joe @ 67: Hmmm. I can’t find the the actual text of the NFL rule on excessive celebration, but my recollection is that leaving your feet or using a prop, or taunting an opposing player, are prohibited. “Going to the ground” is in the context of things like the “worm crawl”, where you leave your feet. Kneeling is not leaving your feet, and thus wouldn’t qualify as going to the ground.

    Moreover, does Tebow even kneel like that after touchdowns? I’ve never seen him do it in game, only before or after. Maybe I’ve missed it, since you and tODD both seem to think he does. But, I don’t think so.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 64: To the contrary, I reject your point, if your point is that Richard somehow is the arbiter of how an athlete should share his faith and live out his vocation. My view is that the Body of Christ is diverse, and we all have different roles and talents to use here on earth to bring glory to Christ. There is not a “one size fits all” approach to sharing the Gospel and loving your neighbor (the two are one, of course).

    Tebow could do just as well uttering a silent prayer of thankfulness to God as you or I would do after a case.

    Maybe. Or maybe God has called him to be more outspoken than you or me.

    Is it somehow “more spiritual” or a “presentation of the Gospel” to do this in a kneeling position in front of thousands of football fans?

    What’s “spiritual” is obedience to God. It is not our place to say what is more spiritual for Tim Tebow in this respect.

    How about playing football to the best of your ability and encouraging your team-mates?

    Are you saying Tebow doesn’t do this? Google Champ Bailey for proof that he is encouraging even veteran teammates.

    Again, is David Freese, an LCMS member, less spiritual because he didn’t give glory to God when he talked to TV reporters after the World Series. He “just” did his vocation well?

    I didn’t say anything about Freese’s spirituality. He is apparently called to take a different approach to sharing the Gospel than Tebow is. That’s OK — scriptural in fact.

  • DonS

    Richard @ 64: To the contrary, I reject your point, if your point is that Richard somehow is the arbiter of how an athlete should share his faith and live out his vocation. My view is that the Body of Christ is diverse, and we all have different roles and talents to use here on earth to bring glory to Christ. There is not a “one size fits all” approach to sharing the Gospel and loving your neighbor (the two are one, of course).

    Tebow could do just as well uttering a silent prayer of thankfulness to God as you or I would do after a case.

    Maybe. Or maybe God has called him to be more outspoken than you or me.

    Is it somehow “more spiritual” or a “presentation of the Gospel” to do this in a kneeling position in front of thousands of football fans?

    What’s “spiritual” is obedience to God. It is not our place to say what is more spiritual for Tim Tebow in this respect.

    How about playing football to the best of your ability and encouraging your team-mates?

    Are you saying Tebow doesn’t do this? Google Champ Bailey for proof that he is encouraging even veteran teammates.

    Again, is David Freese, an LCMS member, less spiritual because he didn’t give glory to God when he talked to TV reporters after the World Series. He “just” did his vocation well?

    I didn’t say anything about Freese’s spirituality. He is apparently called to take a different approach to sharing the Gospel than Tebow is. That’s OK — scriptural in fact.

  • JunkerGeorg

    As for Tebow and his public shows of piety, I’m staying neutral. :) But I will say I much prefer Aaron Rodger’s view on these things. I was impressed by a recent quote of his on football and faith, at least its not the typical “in your face, hey people, hey God, look at me, I’m a Christian” type of thing.

    (Link: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/134760923.html)

    On whether Rodgers takes into account, given what some see as the backlash Denver quarterback Tim Tebow has gotten for his way of expressing his beliefs, when considering how much of his own religious beliefs to share publicly: “Well I started playing before Tim, so these are things I’ve thought about for a long time, and I think one thing that I try to look at when I was a younger player, and I mean, in high school, junior college, and Division I, I was always interested in seeing how guys talked in their interviews, talked about their faith, or didn’t talk about their faith. And then the reactions at time, I know Bob Costas at one point was critical about a player thanking Jesus Christ after a win, questioning what would happen if that player had lost, or do you really think God cares about winning and losing. That’s all to say that I feel like my stance and my desire has always been to follow a quote from St. Francis of Assisi, who said, ‘Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.’ So basically, I’m not an over-the-top, or an in-your-face kind of guy with my faith. I would rather people have questions about why I act the way I act, whether they view it as positive or not, and ask questions, and then given an opportunity at some point, then you can talk about your faith a little bit. I firmly believe, just personally, what works for me, and what I enjoy doing is letting my actions speak about the kind of character that I want to have, and following that quote from St. Francis.’’

  • JunkerGeorg

    As for Tebow and his public shows of piety, I’m staying neutral. :) But I will say I much prefer Aaron Rodger’s view on these things. I was impressed by a recent quote of his on football and faith, at least its not the typical “in your face, hey people, hey God, look at me, I’m a Christian” type of thing.

    (Link: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/134760923.html)

    On whether Rodgers takes into account, given what some see as the backlash Denver quarterback Tim Tebow has gotten for his way of expressing his beliefs, when considering how much of his own religious beliefs to share publicly: “Well I started playing before Tim, so these are things I’ve thought about for a long time, and I think one thing that I try to look at when I was a younger player, and I mean, in high school, junior college, and Division I, I was always interested in seeing how guys talked in their interviews, talked about their faith, or didn’t talk about their faith. And then the reactions at time, I know Bob Costas at one point was critical about a player thanking Jesus Christ after a win, questioning what would happen if that player had lost, or do you really think God cares about winning and losing. That’s all to say that I feel like my stance and my desire has always been to follow a quote from St. Francis of Assisi, who said, ‘Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.’ So basically, I’m not an over-the-top, or an in-your-face kind of guy with my faith. I would rather people have questions about why I act the way I act, whether they view it as positive or not, and ask questions, and then given an opportunity at some point, then you can talk about your faith a little bit. I firmly believe, just personally, what works for me, and what I enjoy doing is letting my actions speak about the kind of character that I want to have, and following that quote from St. Francis.’’

  • Matt

    I really like Aaron Rodgers. Besides the fact that he’s the best quarterback in the league right now, I think his leadership skills, his intelligence and the way he handles himself on and off the field is off the charts. I just think, on the football field it’s very hard to act in such a way for people to actively question what that person’s faith is. I do think, if you’re a Christian who values spreading the gospel, this isn’t the most affective way to do it. What I do appreciate about Rodgers is that he’s always very thoughtful about what he says and does. And maybe he doesn’t mean that he never is the one to bring his faith into a conversation, even if he implied it in that quote. My point is that I think he’s naive to think that actions alone – especially just the football and press conference related persona that’s the main way he communicates with 99.9% of the people who are familiar with him – is an affective evangelism tool. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard him mention his faith unprompted by the media – but I could definitely be wrong about that. I love the guy, I just question if he’s spreading the gospel as effectively as someone more vocal. Currently, I would say no.

  • Matt

    I really like Aaron Rodgers. Besides the fact that he’s the best quarterback in the league right now, I think his leadership skills, his intelligence and the way he handles himself on and off the field is off the charts. I just think, on the football field it’s very hard to act in such a way for people to actively question what that person’s faith is. I do think, if you’re a Christian who values spreading the gospel, this isn’t the most affective way to do it. What I do appreciate about Rodgers is that he’s always very thoughtful about what he says and does. And maybe he doesn’t mean that he never is the one to bring his faith into a conversation, even if he implied it in that quote. My point is that I think he’s naive to think that actions alone – especially just the football and press conference related persona that’s the main way he communicates with 99.9% of the people who are familiar with him – is an affective evangelism tool. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard him mention his faith unprompted by the media – but I could definitely be wrong about that. I love the guy, I just question if he’s spreading the gospel as effectively as someone more vocal. Currently, I would say no.

  • http://RoseFremer@yahoo.com Rose

    I’ve been gone on a speaking engagement and missed this post.
    The explanation for the vitriol is that there are 50 million men and women in America who aborted their children. Tebow reminds them of their terrible error.

  • http://RoseFremer@yahoo.com Rose

    I’ve been gone on a speaking engagement and missed this post.
    The explanation for the vitriol is that there are 50 million men and women in America who aborted their children. Tebow reminds them of their terrible error.

  • Cincinnatus

    I wish Tim Tebow would go away.

  • Cincinnatus

    I wish Tim Tebow would go away.

  • http://concordiaandkoinonia.wordpress.com/ Rev. Mark Schroeder

    Mr. Tebow’s discussions of his faith and Christianity, John 3:16 under his eyes etc. has to be distinguished from the ‘tebowing’, the mocking reference to his praying, that is individual praying which the Lord has some pointed things to teach, along with alms-giving and fasting: Matthew 6: 5-6. Now giving one’s witness in a press interview and John 3:16 under his eyes is his option as an American with 1st Amendment rights (and personally I think it is great to stick it to the rather anti-religious media), but this is different than praying. Such individual public praying is obviously done on the “street corners” of national media. Bonhoeffer commenting on the cited text from Matthew regarding alms giving: “The Pharisee who rendered thanks to God for his own good deed (Luke 18: read here a touchdown: not in Bonhoeffer!) was still the man who lived in the knowledge of good and evil…the situation is clear: knowing of Jesus a man can no longer know of his own goodness, and knowing of his own goodness he can no longer know of Jesus.” There is a great spiritual danger in such displays of individual public praying for the person so praying and I would guess seeing a person so individually praying in public resulted in one of two responses: “I’m not a good person like he is, I’m no good” or “Boy, I want to be a good person like he is”. Notice Who’s missing? But such individual public praying does not engender the true issue of prayer: the Lord. Instead, as the Lord said, that man has already received his reward.

  • http://concordiaandkoinonia.wordpress.com/ Rev. Mark Schroeder

    Mr. Tebow’s discussions of his faith and Christianity, John 3:16 under his eyes etc. has to be distinguished from the ‘tebowing’, the mocking reference to his praying, that is individual praying which the Lord has some pointed things to teach, along with alms-giving and fasting: Matthew 6: 5-6. Now giving one’s witness in a press interview and John 3:16 under his eyes is his option as an American with 1st Amendment rights (and personally I think it is great to stick it to the rather anti-religious media), but this is different than praying. Such individual public praying is obviously done on the “street corners” of national media. Bonhoeffer commenting on the cited text from Matthew regarding alms giving: “The Pharisee who rendered thanks to God for his own good deed (Luke 18: read here a touchdown: not in Bonhoeffer!) was still the man who lived in the knowledge of good and evil…the situation is clear: knowing of Jesus a man can no longer know of his own goodness, and knowing of his own goodness he can no longer know of Jesus.” There is a great spiritual danger in such displays of individual public praying for the person so praying and I would guess seeing a person so individually praying in public resulted in one of two responses: “I’m not a good person like he is, I’m no good” or “Boy, I want to be a good person like he is”. Notice Who’s missing? But such individual public praying does not engender the true issue of prayer: the Lord. Instead, as the Lord said, that man has already received his reward.

  • Greg Mitchell

    Hmm. This just struck me. The reason for the Tebow “hate” I think is due to the fact that mankind in general hates “good.” See Romans 3:11-18. In spite of Tebow’s inherited Adamic nature, he represents “good.” And because the essense of goodness is found in the very nature of God and man’s natural state is opposite that good i.e. God, it makes sense we would feel a hostility towards that good i.e. Tebow.

  • Greg Mitchell

    Hmm. This just struck me. The reason for the Tebow “hate” I think is due to the fact that mankind in general hates “good.” See Romans 3:11-18. In spite of Tebow’s inherited Adamic nature, he represents “good.” And because the essense of goodness is found in the very nature of God and man’s natural state is opposite that good i.e. God, it makes sense we would feel a hostility towards that good i.e. Tebow.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Excellent analysis, Rev Schroeder.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Excellent analysis, Rev Schroeder.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus @75

    Not me. From a football perspective, I love this kid. If he and the Broncos can win 3 of their next 4 games (Chicago, KC and Buffalo…New England will probably beat them) they’ll finish 10-6. And behand a QB who is doing everything that the conventional wisdom has determined would never work. Heart on his sleeve Christianity notwithstanding, how can you not get behind a David fighting Goliath player like that?

    As for the subject of most of this thread, I agree with KK that Rev. Schroeder has the best analysis so far. But come on now. The evangelical mob will never 100% satisfy a lot of us here with their theology. So what? The man is a football player, not a theologian. Cut the kid some slack and let him play.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus @75

    Not me. From a football perspective, I love this kid. If he and the Broncos can win 3 of their next 4 games (Chicago, KC and Buffalo…New England will probably beat them) they’ll finish 10-6. And behand a QB who is doing everything that the conventional wisdom has determined would never work. Heart on his sleeve Christianity notwithstanding, how can you not get behind a David fighting Goliath player like that?

    As for the subject of most of this thread, I agree with KK that Rev. Schroeder has the best analysis so far. But come on now. The evangelical mob will never 100% satisfy a lot of us here with their theology. So what? The man is a football player, not a theologian. Cut the kid some slack and let him play.

  • kerner

    10-6, by the way, will probably put Denver in the playoffs and might even get them home field advantage in the first round.

  • kerner

    10-6, by the way, will probably put Denver in the playoffs and might even get them home field advantage in the first round.

  • Grace

    Rose @ 74

    “I’ve been gone on a speaking engagement and missed this post.
    The explanation for the vitriol is that there are 50 million men and women in America who aborted their children. Tebow reminds them of their terrible error.”

    Tebow reminds those who can still make a decision, to carry their infant, instead of killing it. I wonder how many girls/women have changed their minds because of this mans stand against abortion?

  • Grace

    Rose @ 74

    “I’ve been gone on a speaking engagement and missed this post.
    The explanation for the vitriol is that there are 50 million men and women in America who aborted their children. Tebow reminds them of their terrible error.”

    Tebow reminds those who can still make a decision, to carry their infant, instead of killing it. I wonder how many girls/women have changed their minds because of this mans stand against abortion?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Greg (@77), the problem with this analysis is that it fails to take into consideration the actual specifics under discussion here. Any action undertaken by a Christian, no matter how poorly conceived or executed, no matter how daft, could be excused as being poorly received merely because people hate God. But come on. We as Christians are to be wise as serpents, not gullible as … I don’t know, whatever animal is reputed to be really gullible. We Christians know a bad idea when we see one, or at least some of us do, or at least ought to. Is Tebow’s kneeling such an idea? Well, that’s what we’re discussing here. But let’s not just end all debate and ignore any potentially necessary adjustments for wisdom’s sake, merely because we’ve played the Persecution Card.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Greg (@77), the problem with this analysis is that it fails to take into consideration the actual specifics under discussion here. Any action undertaken by a Christian, no matter how poorly conceived or executed, no matter how daft, could be excused as being poorly received merely because people hate God. But come on. We as Christians are to be wise as serpents, not gullible as … I don’t know, whatever animal is reputed to be really gullible. We Christians know a bad idea when we see one, or at least some of us do, or at least ought to. Is Tebow’s kneeling such an idea? Well, that’s what we’re discussing here. But let’s not just end all debate and ignore any potentially necessary adjustments for wisdom’s sake, merely because we’ve played the Persecution Card.

  • Cincinnatus

    kerner@79:

    “The man is a football player, not a theologian. Cut the kid some slack and let him play.”

    I wish he would cut us some slack and just play.

    Curiously, no one in this thread has pointed out the following fact: Tebow isn’t very good. By some reckonings (including that of the Denver Post), he is literally the worst quarterback in the NFL. He can’t hit the broad side of a barn, much less than hands of his receivers, and his footwork is basically nonexistent. To the extent that the Broncos have won, they have won in spite of Tebow. And yet Tebow gets more news coverage, by my reckoning, than Aaron Rodgers himself. Most of this coverage is dedicated to his patently ostentatious public displays of personal piety. It’s frankly annoying, and does more harm than good: he’s embarrassing Christianity, in my opinion. The public image of Christianity should be a puffy lout in tights who sucks at his job and smears grease under his eyes that have Bible references on them. Why should I get behind him? How is he an underdogs? Underdogs are humble, scrappy teams that, as it happens, are better than their vaunted challengers. First, Tebow is making millions of dollars from his football and book contracts. He doesn’t need my support. Second, he sucks and he’s obnoxious, so he doesn’t have any underdog cred in my book.

    And I’d like to reiterate something that has been pointed out: Not only are these various public prayers, kneels, etc., pharasaical, but they are also nonsensical. So God gave you that touchdown? Does God hate the other team or something? My guess is that God has a few quibbles with the NFL in general, but that’s a separate discussion.

    In short, just do your damn job, Tebow. Then maybe we’ll care about what you have to say on your own time (i.e., stop taking our time with your “message”). And all this stuff about witnessing? Come on! Is anyone going to “get saved” because Tebow kneels in the endzone? Is anyone going to be more “bold” in sharing their faith in the workplace because Tebow does so? Doubt it. After all, kneeling in the endzone is trendy, and has been happening (annoyingly) for years.

  • Cincinnatus

    kerner@79:

    “The man is a football player, not a theologian. Cut the kid some slack and let him play.”

    I wish he would cut us some slack and just play.

    Curiously, no one in this thread has pointed out the following fact: Tebow isn’t very good. By some reckonings (including that of the Denver Post), he is literally the worst quarterback in the NFL. He can’t hit the broad side of a barn, much less than hands of his receivers, and his footwork is basically nonexistent. To the extent that the Broncos have won, they have won in spite of Tebow. And yet Tebow gets more news coverage, by my reckoning, than Aaron Rodgers himself. Most of this coverage is dedicated to his patently ostentatious public displays of personal piety. It’s frankly annoying, and does more harm than good: he’s embarrassing Christianity, in my opinion. The public image of Christianity should be a puffy lout in tights who sucks at his job and smears grease under his eyes that have Bible references on them. Why should I get behind him? How is he an underdogs? Underdogs are humble, scrappy teams that, as it happens, are better than their vaunted challengers. First, Tebow is making millions of dollars from his football and book contracts. He doesn’t need my support. Second, he sucks and he’s obnoxious, so he doesn’t have any underdog cred in my book.

    And I’d like to reiterate something that has been pointed out: Not only are these various public prayers, kneels, etc., pharasaical, but they are also nonsensical. So God gave you that touchdown? Does God hate the other team or something? My guess is that God has a few quibbles with the NFL in general, but that’s a separate discussion.

    In short, just do your damn job, Tebow. Then maybe we’ll care about what you have to say on your own time (i.e., stop taking our time with your “message”). And all this stuff about witnessing? Come on! Is anyone going to “get saved” because Tebow kneels in the endzone? Is anyone going to be more “bold” in sharing their faith in the workplace because Tebow does so? Doubt it. After all, kneeling in the endzone is trendy, and has been happening (annoyingly) for years.

  • Richard

    Greg,

    Tebow “represents good”? Are you kidding me? Our Lord told us there was only One who was good. Good grief. Have we come this far, that someone who critiques a fellow Christian is criticizing “goodness”? Man alive!

  • Richard

    Greg,

    Tebow “represents good”? Are you kidding me? Our Lord told us there was only One who was good. Good grief. Have we come this far, that someone who critiques a fellow Christian is criticizing “goodness”? Man alive!

  • Cincinnatus

    Wow, so, typo city in my last comment.

  • Cincinnatus

    Wow, so, typo city in my last comment.

  • Richard

    Doesn’t matter, Cincinnatus, I think we all got the message.

  • Richard

    Doesn’t matter, Cincinnatus, I think we all got the message.

  • Grace

    Greg Mitchell @77

    I agree with you.

    Matthew 7 comes to mind:

    16Ye shall know them by their fruits.Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    Matthew 7

    Tebow’s fruit is good. His stand against abortion, his stand for Jesus Christ has turned some people, including so called Christians inside out. It’s a pity there are not more young men like Tebow.

  • Grace

    Greg Mitchell @77

    I agree with you.

    Matthew 7 comes to mind:

    16Ye shall know them by their fruits.Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    Matthew 7

    Tebow’s fruit is good. His stand against abortion, his stand for Jesus Christ has turned some people, including so called Christians inside out. It’s a pity there are not more young men like Tebow.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Gene Veith: “A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow. And it’s because of his open Christianity. … Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    I agree with you 100% Dr. Veith.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Gene Veith: “A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow. And it’s because of his open Christianity. … Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    I agree with you 100% Dr. Veith.

  • Grace

    Watch the VIDEO –

    Tebow and his family support more than 600 Orphanages and are building a hospital in the Phillipines – That costs a great deal of money –

    Tim Tebow

    The Man, The Mission, The Ministry

    http://www.21st-century-christianity.com/Tebow.html

  • Grace

    Watch the VIDEO –

    Tebow and his family support more than 600 Orphanages and are building a hospital in the Phillipines – That costs a great deal of money –

    Tim Tebow

    The Man, The Mission, The Ministry

    http://www.21st-century-christianity.com/Tebow.html

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 88

    Good to see you my friend !

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 88

    Good to see you my friend !

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus:

    Tebow sucks at his job? Let’s review.

    Tebow’s QB rating is 87.9 for 2011. Not stellar, but hardly in the “sucks” catagory.

    Ben Roethlesberger (Steelers 9-3) is 93.6.
    Joe Flacco (Ravens 9-3) is 78.3
    Alex Smith (49ers 10-2) is 94.9
    T.J. Yates (Texans 9-3) is 79.0

    The reason he gets so much flak for being a “bad” QB is that he doesn’t seem able to win the way most NFL QB’s do it. But, I don’t see why that should matter.

    Being annoying is something else again. Annoyance may be at least partially in the eye of the beholder. And I agree with you to some extent that extremely overt Christians can be annoying.

    But your question:

    “Is anyone going to “get saved” because Tebow kneels in the endzone? Is anyone going to be more “bold” in sharing their faith in the workplace because Tebow does so? Doubt it.”

    is unanswerable. People “get saved” or become “bold” because the Holy Spirit breaks their fallen hearts through the preaching of God’s Word and the administration of the sacraments. Whether Tebow painting God’s Word on his face or other public expressions of his faith ever become something the Holy Spirit works through is something we can’t say. But we can’t say it about any other individual sermon or statement or liturgy either.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus:

    Tebow sucks at his job? Let’s review.

    Tebow’s QB rating is 87.9 for 2011. Not stellar, but hardly in the “sucks” catagory.

    Ben Roethlesberger (Steelers 9-3) is 93.6.
    Joe Flacco (Ravens 9-3) is 78.3
    Alex Smith (49ers 10-2) is 94.9
    T.J. Yates (Texans 9-3) is 79.0

    The reason he gets so much flak for being a “bad” QB is that he doesn’t seem able to win the way most NFL QB’s do it. But, I don’t see why that should matter.

    Being annoying is something else again. Annoyance may be at least partially in the eye of the beholder. And I agree with you to some extent that extremely overt Christians can be annoying.

    But your question:

    “Is anyone going to “get saved” because Tebow kneels in the endzone? Is anyone going to be more “bold” in sharing their faith in the workplace because Tebow does so? Doubt it.”

    is unanswerable. People “get saved” or become “bold” because the Holy Spirit breaks their fallen hearts through the preaching of God’s Word and the administration of the sacraments. Whether Tebow painting God’s Word on his face or other public expressions of his faith ever become something the Holy Spirit works through is something we can’t say. But we can’t say it about any other individual sermon or statement or liturgy either.

  • Greg Mitchell

    Richard @84
    So very true. There is only One that is good, hence my reference to Romans 3. But we ALL know good kids when we see them. It’s his attitude. It seems like he’s putting on Christ (at least trying to) … Col. 3:12-15.

  • Greg Mitchell

    Richard @84
    So very true. There is only One that is good, hence my reference to Romans 3. But we ALL know good kids when we see them. It’s his attitude. It seems like he’s putting on Christ (at least trying to) … Col. 3:12-15.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Truth Unites… and Divides @ 88

    Good to see you my friend !”

    Same to you, Grace! I’m pleased that both of us (among many others) gladly affirm Dr. Veith’s post when he wrote:

    “A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow. And it’s because of his open Christianity. … Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    Have a wonderful Christmas season!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Truth Unites… and Divides @ 88

    Good to see you my friend !”

    Same to you, Grace! I’m pleased that both of us (among many others) gladly affirm Dr. Veith’s post when he wrote:

    “A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow. And it’s because of his open Christianity. … Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    Have a wonderful Christmas season!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “It’s been over a month since Focus on the Family’s [Tim Tebow] ad appeared in the Super Bowl. From time to time I hear comments that maybe Focus shouldn’t have placed the ad, or should have placed a more hard-hitting ad. “What good has it done?” I hear some ask.

    I figured since I’m on “the inside,” I’d share one letter (of many) that we’ve received. This is from Susan, who’s given us permission to publish it here:

    I need to thank you so much. It’s not like me to reach out to strangers or agencies for help. I was truly feeling lost. I saw the ad during the Super Bowl and it stuck in my head. I feel like that commercial was made to reach out to me.

    Later that week I googled it and watched the ad over and over. Then I went to your website and watched the related interview. I felt drawn to reach out to you and I am so glad that I did. You may think that all you did was email me back, but you did so much more than that!!! You gave me hope and encouragement. You let me know that if I need help it’s out there. (I went to the related website you suggested in your email.) You reminded me that I can’t be perfect, but God loves me.

    You also gave me a wake up call. Why was I worrying about what the baby’s father wanted me to do? I am always trying to make other people happy. I kept thinking that unless I have an abortion, he won’t be happy. Well, you put the focus back where it belongs. It doesn’t matter what makes him happy, or me happy for that matter. It’s about what will make God happy.

    I tried to convince the father of this and he wouldn’t listen. I just kept telling myself what you said about how I can’t control how others feel about my pregnancy. Once I made the decision that it didn’t matter what he says or thinks, I’m keeping the baby, I felt so much better! I am excited. I do want to be a mom and I will do my best (although we know I’ll be far from perfect) for this baby. I mean I’m scared, too. I have a lot to figure out, especially financially, but I will put my trust in God.

    I think I was partly afraid that God was mad at me for getting pregnant out of wedlock. While I know he isn’t proud of me for it, thank you for reminding me that he still loves me. I didn’t need to compound one sin with another. My mistake can’t be erased, but I can ask for forgiveness.

    The father is mad at me and says I’m ruining his life. That’s OK. I can not control him or his feelings. I can only protect the baby.

    I can not thank you enough for putting me back on the right track and reminding me what actually matters in life. I don’t know how I forgot something so important, but I did.

    Your organization, through the Super Bowl ad and your thoughtful email, saved this baby’s life. I have no doubt about that. And in the process maybe you saved my soul. Words just can not express my gratitude, but thank you, thank you, thank you!

    From Super Bowl Commercial Update.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “It’s been over a month since Focus on the Family’s [Tim Tebow] ad appeared in the Super Bowl. From time to time I hear comments that maybe Focus shouldn’t have placed the ad, or should have placed a more hard-hitting ad. “What good has it done?” I hear some ask.

    I figured since I’m on “the inside,” I’d share one letter (of many) that we’ve received. This is from Susan, who’s given us permission to publish it here:

    I need to thank you so much. It’s not like me to reach out to strangers or agencies for help. I was truly feeling lost. I saw the ad during the Super Bowl and it stuck in my head. I feel like that commercial was made to reach out to me.

    Later that week I googled it and watched the ad over and over. Then I went to your website and watched the related interview. I felt drawn to reach out to you and I am so glad that I did. You may think that all you did was email me back, but you did so much more than that!!! You gave me hope and encouragement. You let me know that if I need help it’s out there. (I went to the related website you suggested in your email.) You reminded me that I can’t be perfect, but God loves me.

    You also gave me a wake up call. Why was I worrying about what the baby’s father wanted me to do? I am always trying to make other people happy. I kept thinking that unless I have an abortion, he won’t be happy. Well, you put the focus back where it belongs. It doesn’t matter what makes him happy, or me happy for that matter. It’s about what will make God happy.

    I tried to convince the father of this and he wouldn’t listen. I just kept telling myself what you said about how I can’t control how others feel about my pregnancy. Once I made the decision that it didn’t matter what he says or thinks, I’m keeping the baby, I felt so much better! I am excited. I do want to be a mom and I will do my best (although we know I’ll be far from perfect) for this baby. I mean I’m scared, too. I have a lot to figure out, especially financially, but I will put my trust in God.

    I think I was partly afraid that God was mad at me for getting pregnant out of wedlock. While I know he isn’t proud of me for it, thank you for reminding me that he still loves me. I didn’t need to compound one sin with another. My mistake can’t be erased, but I can ask for forgiveness.

    The father is mad at me and says I’m ruining his life. That’s OK. I can not control him or his feelings. I can only protect the baby.

    I can not thank you enough for putting me back on the right track and reminding me what actually matters in life. I don’t know how I forgot something so important, but I did.

    Your organization, through the Super Bowl ad and your thoughtful email, saved this baby’s life. I have no doubt about that. And in the process maybe you saved my soul. Words just can not express my gratitude, but thank you, thank you, thank you!

    From Super Bowl Commercial Update.

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 93

    I wish you a blessed Christmas. I hope you continue to come here to post – you have been missed!

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 93

    I wish you a blessed Christmas. I hope you continue to come here to post – you have been missed!

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 94

    The truth is – Tebow has been used by God ALMIGHTY to help others, through his gift in sports. Praise God!

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 94

    The truth is – Tebow has been used by God ALMIGHTY to help others, through his gift in sports. Praise God!

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace and TUAD: You’re the same person, right? Complimenting one another is a classic giveaway.

    TUAD, your email from a FoF beneficiary (?), if it’s even real, says very little about Tebow and very much about the work of FoF. Did Tebow convince her not to have an abortion or did Focus on the Family? After all, wouldn’t Focus on the Family have placed an ad even if Tebow hadn’t agreed to feature in it?

    I mean, bully for Tebow for standing up for a good cause–you know, like essentially every single NFL player does (NFL players are strongly “encouraged” to participate, not merely financially, in various community service and charitable endeavors)–but that doesn’t make him a hero, and it doesn’t justify his general obnoxiousness elsewhere.

    This goes back to the example of the lawyer in the courtroom earlier. Is it part of the vocation of a football player to trumpet a shallow version of the gospel (on the NFL’s time)? As a teacher at a secular university, would it be appropriate for me to “share the Gospel” explicitly in class? I think not, so I don’t do it.

    More to the point, what exactly is Tebow’s message? That God loves football? That Jesus can make a person really good at sports (or other endeavors)? That one can have millions of dollars and be a celebrity but still, allegedly, maintain one’s “purity” or virtue? Even if I weren’t turned off by the sheerly spectacular (“spectacle”) nature of his pietistic displays, I’m just not sure why I, as a Christian, should be a fan of Tebow, and I’m not sure what he’s doing–for the world generally or for the Church/faith specifically.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace and TUAD: You’re the same person, right? Complimenting one another is a classic giveaway.

    TUAD, your email from a FoF beneficiary (?), if it’s even real, says very little about Tebow and very much about the work of FoF. Did Tebow convince her not to have an abortion or did Focus on the Family? After all, wouldn’t Focus on the Family have placed an ad even if Tebow hadn’t agreed to feature in it?

    I mean, bully for Tebow for standing up for a good cause–you know, like essentially every single NFL player does (NFL players are strongly “encouraged” to participate, not merely financially, in various community service and charitable endeavors)–but that doesn’t make him a hero, and it doesn’t justify his general obnoxiousness elsewhere.

    This goes back to the example of the lawyer in the courtroom earlier. Is it part of the vocation of a football player to trumpet a shallow version of the gospel (on the NFL’s time)? As a teacher at a secular university, would it be appropriate for me to “share the Gospel” explicitly in class? I think not, so I don’t do it.

    More to the point, what exactly is Tebow’s message? That God loves football? That Jesus can make a person really good at sports (or other endeavors)? That one can have millions of dollars and be a celebrity but still, allegedly, maintain one’s “purity” or virtue? Even if I weren’t turned off by the sheerly spectacular (“spectacle”) nature of his pietistic displays, I’m just not sure why I, as a Christian, should be a fan of Tebow, and I’m not sure what he’s doing–for the world generally or for the Church/faith specifically.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Did Tebow convince her not to have an abortion or did Focus on the Family?”

    Let’s give the credit and glory to God.

    And let’s also notice the willing and broken vessels and instruments He used to save that baby’s life.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Did Tebow convince her not to have an abortion or did Focus on the Family?”

    Let’s give the credit and glory to God.

    And let’s also notice the willing and broken vessels and instruments He used to save that baby’s life.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 97

    “Grace and TUAD: You’re the same person, right? Complimenting one another is a classic giveaway.”

    No, I am not Truth Unites… and Divides.

    Your rant in post 83 last paragraph is pathetic, as you end it:

    “Is anyone going to “get saved” because Tebow kneels in the endzone? Is anyone going to be more “bold” in sharing their faith in the workplace because Tebow does so? Doubt it. After all, kneeling in the endzone is trendy, and has been happening (annoyingly) for years.

    That’s a very telling comment you made.

    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    13 You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his flavor, with which shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house.

    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Mathew 5

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 97

    “Grace and TUAD: You’re the same person, right? Complimenting one another is a classic giveaway.”

    No, I am not Truth Unites… and Divides.

    Your rant in post 83 last paragraph is pathetic, as you end it:

    “Is anyone going to “get saved” because Tebow kneels in the endzone? Is anyone going to be more “bold” in sharing their faith in the workplace because Tebow does so? Doubt it. After all, kneeling in the endzone is trendy, and has been happening (annoyingly) for years.

    That’s a very telling comment you made.

    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    13 You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his flavor, with which shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house.

    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Mathew 5

  • Grace

    It appears Truth and I posted at the exact time, which proves we are not the same person, Cincinnatus @ 97.

    :razz:

  • Grace

    It appears Truth and I posted at the exact time, which proves we are not the same person, Cincinnatus @ 97.

    :razz:

  • Cincinnatus

    How is it telling? What does it tell you? I find all endzone celebrations to be annoying and distracting, unless they are a) exceptionally creative or b) directed at making a fan’s day (you know, high-fiving a kid or something). Which is why the NFL has a rule against excessive celebration.

    And is Christ referring to petty, trendy gestures in the modern equivalent of a coliseum when he counsels that we let our light shine before men? That’s it? Really? These days, it’s more uncommon to see someone not kneel after a touchdown. Everyone, apparently, is a Christian these days. Personally, I would be more impressed with Tebow’s “light” if he gave away his millions to orphans and signed charity checks rather than book deals. But that’s just me, I guess.

    I don’t hate Tebow for his faith. Many of my “favorite” athletes, insofar as I have any, are devout Christians. I hate the public, embarrassing nature of Tebow’s faith, not the faith itself. And it’s not embarrassing simply to be vocal about one’s faith. It’s the ridiculous manner in which he does it, generally. And again, kerner, Tebow isn’t that great at football either: his stats, except, apparently, for the one you cite, aren’t very good. Why do I have to listen a mediocre athlete pontificate about his “faith” like a third-grader?

    I’m sure Tebow is a good kid. He’s obviously at the cusp of a career that will probably be successful. Can we stop talking about him then? And that includes fawning over him like he’s the second-coming of football Jesus. International celebrities can’t do much in practical terms to make the world a better place, paradoxically. I’d be more concerned about the souls of the kids on my local high school team.

  • Cincinnatus

    How is it telling? What does it tell you? I find all endzone celebrations to be annoying and distracting, unless they are a) exceptionally creative or b) directed at making a fan’s day (you know, high-fiving a kid or something). Which is why the NFL has a rule against excessive celebration.

    And is Christ referring to petty, trendy gestures in the modern equivalent of a coliseum when he counsels that we let our light shine before men? That’s it? Really? These days, it’s more uncommon to see someone not kneel after a touchdown. Everyone, apparently, is a Christian these days. Personally, I would be more impressed with Tebow’s “light” if he gave away his millions to orphans and signed charity checks rather than book deals. But that’s just me, I guess.

    I don’t hate Tebow for his faith. Many of my “favorite” athletes, insofar as I have any, are devout Christians. I hate the public, embarrassing nature of Tebow’s faith, not the faith itself. And it’s not embarrassing simply to be vocal about one’s faith. It’s the ridiculous manner in which he does it, generally. And again, kerner, Tebow isn’t that great at football either: his stats, except, apparently, for the one you cite, aren’t very good. Why do I have to listen a mediocre athlete pontificate about his “faith” like a third-grader?

    I’m sure Tebow is a good kid. He’s obviously at the cusp of a career that will probably be successful. Can we stop talking about him then? And that includes fawning over him like he’s the second-coming of football Jesus. International celebrities can’t do much in practical terms to make the world a better place, paradoxically. I’d be more concerned about the souls of the kids on my local high school team.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus 101

    “Why do I have to listen a mediocre athlete pontificate about his “faith” like a third-grader?”

    Most people come to Christ at any age, just “like a third-grader” – maybe this is your problem.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus 101

    “Why do I have to listen a mediocre athlete pontificate about his “faith” like a third-grader?”

    Most people come to Christ at any age, just “like a third-grader” – maybe this is your problem.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus at 101

    “Personally, I would be more impressed with Tebow’s “light” if he gave away his millions to orphans and signed charity checks rather than book deals.”

    Apparently you missed my post @ 89 .. OR .. you failed to watch the video. Orphanages over 600 – building a hospial in the Phillipines.

    Here is the post again -

    Tebow and his family support more than 600 Orphanages and are building a hospital in the Phillipines – That costs a great deal of money –

    Tim Tebow

    The Man, The Mission, The Ministry

    http://www.21st-century-christianity.com/Tebow.html

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus at 101

    “Personally, I would be more impressed with Tebow’s “light” if he gave away his millions to orphans and signed charity checks rather than book deals.”

    Apparently you missed my post @ 89 .. OR .. you failed to watch the video. Orphanages over 600 – building a hospial in the Phillipines.

    Here is the post again -

    Tebow and his family support more than 600 Orphanages and are building a hospital in the Phillipines – That costs a great deal of money –

    Tim Tebow

    The Man, The Mission, The Ministry

    http://www.21st-century-christianity.com/Tebow.html

  • Richard

    And how does kneeling after a touchdown communicate the Gospel of Christ? What is the connection here?

  • Richard

    And how does kneeling after a touchdown communicate the Gospel of Christ? What is the connection here?

  • Grace

    Richard @ 104

    I’ve watched people pray in restaurants, (some very good restaurants) giving thanks to God for their food. Those around them see an example of Christians thanking God for what they have.

    Prayer has been eliminated from our schools and other places. When so called Christians complain about kneeling or praying – one has to wonder why they begrudge the LORD praise and thanksgiving.

  • Grace

    Richard @ 104

    I’ve watched people pray in restaurants, (some very good restaurants) giving thanks to God for their food. Those around them see an example of Christians thanking God for what they have.

    Prayer has been eliminated from our schools and other places. When so called Christians complain about kneeling or praying – one has to wonder why they begrudge the LORD praise and thanksgiving.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace, really? “The Man, The Mission, The Ministry”? Did Tim hire you as a marketing agent or something? (Also, idolatry much?) I’m glad Tebow (apparently) contributes to his father’s charity. But it is his father’s.

    Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers does stuff like this: http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/aaron-rodgers-wins-at-life

    Hardly saving the world, but neither is Tebow. My point is that nothing Tebow is doing charitably is any different or in any way superior to the stuff a lot of other athletes and celebrities do. But Rodgers doesn’t have to be obnoxious about it.

    I’ll repeat Richard’s pointed inquiry: How is kneeling after a touchdown communicating the Gospel of Christ? What message is that supposed to send? I literally don’t know.

    The great problem I see–and why Tebow bothers me in particular–is that he has been practically idolized by many evangelicals. This is evidence to me of a consumerism that has infected American Christianity in general: we need an attractive face to “market” our message, etc.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace, really? “The Man, The Mission, The Ministry”? Did Tim hire you as a marketing agent or something? (Also, idolatry much?) I’m glad Tebow (apparently) contributes to his father’s charity. But it is his father’s.

    Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers does stuff like this: http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/aaron-rodgers-wins-at-life

    Hardly saving the world, but neither is Tebow. My point is that nothing Tebow is doing charitably is any different or in any way superior to the stuff a lot of other athletes and celebrities do. But Rodgers doesn’t have to be obnoxious about it.

    I’ll repeat Richard’s pointed inquiry: How is kneeling after a touchdown communicating the Gospel of Christ? What message is that supposed to send? I literally don’t know.

    The great problem I see–and why Tebow bothers me in particular–is that he has been practically idolized by many evangelicals. This is evidence to me of a consumerism that has infected American Christianity in general: we need an attractive face to “market” our message, etc.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus at 106

    “I’m glad Tebow (apparently) contributes to his father’s charity. But it is his father’s.

    Yes, but I bet it’s with money young Tebow contributes. He’s done mission trips as well. If he sits next to one of his parents or his siblings on his plane trip is that a source of irritation for you as well?

    “Hardly saving the world, but neither is Tebow. My point is that nothing Tebow is doing charitably is any different or in any way superior to the stuff a lot of other athletes and celebrities do. But Rodgers doesn’t have to be obnoxious about it.”

    Then why did you complain about Tebow not helping “orphanes” (post 101 .. Personally, I would be more impressed with Tebow’s “light” if he gave away his millions to orphans)when in fact he does. You complain, then you get proof and you still grumble.

    “The great problem I see–and why Tebow bothers me in particular–is that he has been practically idolized by many evangelicals.

    WRONG….. Tebow is respected, very different from “idolized” –

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus at 106

    “I’m glad Tebow (apparently) contributes to his father’s charity. But it is his father’s.

    Yes, but I bet it’s with money young Tebow contributes. He’s done mission trips as well. If he sits next to one of his parents or his siblings on his plane trip is that a source of irritation for you as well?

    “Hardly saving the world, but neither is Tebow. My point is that nothing Tebow is doing charitably is any different or in any way superior to the stuff a lot of other athletes and celebrities do. But Rodgers doesn’t have to be obnoxious about it.”

    Then why did you complain about Tebow not helping “orphanes” (post 101 .. Personally, I would be more impressed with Tebow’s “light” if he gave away his millions to orphans)when in fact he does. You complain, then you get proof and you still grumble.

    “The great problem I see–and why Tebow bothers me in particular–is that he has been practically idolized by many evangelicals.

    WRONG….. Tebow is respected, very different from “idolized” –

  • http://Www.Toddstadler.com tODD

    Grace (et al.) is, of course, waging a quintessential battle for the Culture War here, and neither logic nor facts will have any effect. Witness the firing of the Culture Warrior’s ur-trope cannon:

    Prayer has been eliminated from our schools and other places.

    Though beloved by Culture Warriors for decades, this statement is so false that it is either the product of deliberate mendacity or surprising ignorance.

    What’s funny is how Culture Warriors like Grace will fight to the death to defend the vaguest, most insignificant gestures (e.g. kneeling for a few seconds on a football field) as long as it is perceived to further the interests of American Evangelicalism (which, by extension, must have similarly vague goals). Any such practitioner of the American Evangelical dog whistle is thereby deemed above criticism, and if you do dare decry the Evangelical sacrosanct, be prepared to have your faith questioned.

    The irony, of course, is how Grace is utterly incapable of saying anything good about Martin Luther, a man who literally wrote thousands of pages extolling the purest Law and Gospel.

    Ah, but Luther, while proclaiming the actual Gospel of Christ with unequivocal clarity, is unknown to Grace’s particular strain of Evangelicalism. Except for one work of his, as readers of this blog know all too well. So while she questions the bona fides of Christians who so much as look askance at Tebow’s largely semantically empty gesture, she also has no problem questioning the faith of Luther (and those who go by his name) in spite of all the actual Gospel he proclaimed.

    You see how it is. This isn’t about the actual Gospel. Just more foolish Culture War nonsense.

  • http://Www.Toddstadler.com tODD

    Grace (et al.) is, of course, waging a quintessential battle for the Culture War here, and neither logic nor facts will have any effect. Witness the firing of the Culture Warrior’s ur-trope cannon:

    Prayer has been eliminated from our schools and other places.

    Though beloved by Culture Warriors for decades, this statement is so false that it is either the product of deliberate mendacity or surprising ignorance.

    What’s funny is how Culture Warriors like Grace will fight to the death to defend the vaguest, most insignificant gestures (e.g. kneeling for a few seconds on a football field) as long as it is perceived to further the interests of American Evangelicalism (which, by extension, must have similarly vague goals). Any such practitioner of the American Evangelical dog whistle is thereby deemed above criticism, and if you do dare decry the Evangelical sacrosanct, be prepared to have your faith questioned.

    The irony, of course, is how Grace is utterly incapable of saying anything good about Martin Luther, a man who literally wrote thousands of pages extolling the purest Law and Gospel.

    Ah, but Luther, while proclaiming the actual Gospel of Christ with unequivocal clarity, is unknown to Grace’s particular strain of Evangelicalism. Except for one work of his, as readers of this blog know all too well. So while she questions the bona fides of Christians who so much as look askance at Tebow’s largely semantically empty gesture, she also has no problem questioning the faith of Luther (and those who go by his name) in spite of all the actual Gospel he proclaimed.

    You see how it is. This isn’t about the actual Gospel. Just more foolish Culture War nonsense.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Veith asks in his blogpost title: Anti-Tebow bigotry?

    And then he ends his post with an exhortation: “Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    It would seem that Dr. Veith’s title question is answered in the affirmative should there be some folks who regard Tim Tebow as “Just more foolish Culture War nonsense.”

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Veith asks in his blogpost title: Anti-Tebow bigotry?

    And then he ends his post with an exhortation: “Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    It would seem that Dr. Veith’s title question is answered in the affirmative should there be some folks who regard Tim Tebow as “Just more foolish Culture War nonsense.”

  • helen

    “I wish Tim Tebow would go away.” — Cincinnatus

    Whassamatta, Cincinnatus, did the Broncos beat your team this year?

    He is not a conventional QB. Denver is basically running a read option (i.e. a college level offense) in the NFL. People who make their living talking about football have been saying that this type of offense will not work at the pro level for at least a decade. Thus, Tebow’s success is an affront to their expertise.

    Besides that, “come from behind” victories are hard on the bookies, I would imagine! [I don't know, really.]

    One of the local bloggers was writing a funny piece about how the pros tried to turn Tebow into something different and they finally started winning more when they let him play his way. “Playing to a QB’s strengths, imagine that!” :)

    Thanksgiving Eve, UT Longhorns won over the A&M Aggies, literally in the last seconds, by a field goal. [27-25]
    Which was poetic justice; Justin Tucker had punted 5 times in the first quarter, and more that I have forgotten after that, because the Longhorns couldn’t seem to get down the field and were behind more minutes than not.
    That is a long way round to saying that as the game went on I noticed Justin crossed himself before every kick, and some others on the squad did the same at various times.
    I do not remember anyone mentioning it afterward or since, but I do not read all the sports news.

    It does seem like a lot of fuss is being made because it’s Tim Tebow, and they are winning!
    Maybe the person mentioning the abortions has a point, but I don’t think those people would mind him being a Christian either, if he was on a losing team.

    If you’re worried that he will fall off some pedestal you’ve put him on, pray for him!

  • helen

    “I wish Tim Tebow would go away.” — Cincinnatus

    Whassamatta, Cincinnatus, did the Broncos beat your team this year?

    He is not a conventional QB. Denver is basically running a read option (i.e. a college level offense) in the NFL. People who make their living talking about football have been saying that this type of offense will not work at the pro level for at least a decade. Thus, Tebow’s success is an affront to their expertise.

    Besides that, “come from behind” victories are hard on the bookies, I would imagine! [I don't know, really.]

    One of the local bloggers was writing a funny piece about how the pros tried to turn Tebow into something different and they finally started winning more when they let him play his way. “Playing to a QB’s strengths, imagine that!” :)

    Thanksgiving Eve, UT Longhorns won over the A&M Aggies, literally in the last seconds, by a field goal. [27-25]
    Which was poetic justice; Justin Tucker had punted 5 times in the first quarter, and more that I have forgotten after that, because the Longhorns couldn’t seem to get down the field and were behind more minutes than not.
    That is a long way round to saying that as the game went on I noticed Justin crossed himself before every kick, and some others on the squad did the same at various times.
    I do not remember anyone mentioning it afterward or since, but I do not read all the sports news.

    It does seem like a lot of fuss is being made because it’s Tim Tebow, and they are winning!
    Maybe the person mentioning the abortions has a point, but I don’t think those people would mind him being a Christian either, if he was on a losing team.

    If you’re worried that he will fall off some pedestal you’ve put him on, pray for him!

  • Grace

    bOO hOO tODD – this is awful, you blubbering over your keyboard – ‘somebody get tODD some tissues before his keys start to stick!

  • Grace

    bOO hOO tODD – this is awful, you blubbering over your keyboard – ‘somebody get tODD some tissues before his keys start to stick!

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 109

    The ‘culture warrior’ – ‘culture war’ .. guru’s, are self appointed experts on the ‘old phrase, in fact they apply them to anyone who disagrees with them.

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 109

    The ‘culture warrior’ – ‘culture war’ .. guru’s, are self appointed experts on the ‘old phrase, in fact they apply them to anyone who disagrees with them.

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    “Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    Y E S ! ! !
    Carol-CS

  • http://carolmsblog.blogspot.com/ C-Christian Soldier

    “Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    Y E S ! ! !
    Carol-CS

  • Grace

    C-Christian Soldier @ 113

    ““Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    RIGHT — the problem is, too many people don’t want to ‘come out’ regarding their faith, they hide it, or…. as they would rather say, ‘don’t throw it in someones face’ … that’s the excuse.

    My post in part @ 99 –

    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    13 You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his flavor, with which shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house.

    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Mathew 5

    Blessings

  • Grace

    C-Christian Soldier @ 113

    ““Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    RIGHT — the problem is, too many people don’t want to ‘come out’ regarding their faith, they hide it, or…. as they would rather say, ‘don’t throw it in someones face’ … that’s the excuse.

    My post in part @ 99 –

    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    13 You are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his flavor, with which shall it be salted? it is thereafter good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house.

    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Mathew 5

    Blessings

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@111):

    bOO hOO tODD – this is awful, you blubbering over your keyboard – ‘somebody get tODD some tissues before his keys start to stick!

    Thank you for your well-considered, intelligent response.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@111):

    bOO hOO tODD – this is awful, you blubbering over your keyboard – ‘somebody get tODD some tissues before his keys start to stick!

    Thank you for your well-considered, intelligent response.

  • Richard

    Yup, Grace tipped her hand when she trotted out the old “prayer in public schools” canard. This is all about culture wars, isn’t it? Not about the Gospel, but about “us” versus “them.” And the Gospel gets lost in the “fight.”

  • Richard

    Yup, Grace tipped her hand when she trotted out the old “prayer in public schools” canard. This is all about culture wars, isn’t it? Not about the Gospel, but about “us” versus “them.” And the Gospel gets lost in the “fight.”

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Richard – for fols like her, the Culture War IS the Gospel, and vice versa. There is no distinction.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Richard – for fols like her, the Culture War IS the Gospel, and vice versa. There is no distinction.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    That should be – “folks”…

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    That should be – “folks”…

  • Grace

    The Culture War response for any and all beliefs that don’t correspond with the liberal left – ie “Prayer in public schools” and many other subjects that don’t set well with the Ron Paul variety is bogus.

    The Gospel isn’t a “culture war” – claiming that Evangelicals are such, is nothing but ignorant, born out of a desire to side step the issue.

    Tebow brings out anger and resentment among those who cannot accept his thankfulness, it makes them nervous and irritable, to the point of lashing out.

    Prayer, using “in Jesus Name” has been a controversy regarding military funerals –

    Pentagon – POLITICS
    Texas Lawmaker Calls for Congressional Probe Into Ban of Christian Prayers at Military Funerals

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/26/texas-lawmaker-calls-for-congressional-probe-into-ban-christian-prayers-at/

    The liberals cannot accept the fact….. prayer is a freedom we all have, whether it be in a stadium, a military funeral, or a child praying in school. Freedom of Religion is a right in the United States!

  • Grace

    The Culture War response for any and all beliefs that don’t correspond with the liberal left – ie “Prayer in public schools” and many other subjects that don’t set well with the Ron Paul variety is bogus.

    The Gospel isn’t a “culture war” – claiming that Evangelicals are such, is nothing but ignorant, born out of a desire to side step the issue.

    Tebow brings out anger and resentment among those who cannot accept his thankfulness, it makes them nervous and irritable, to the point of lashing out.

    Prayer, using “in Jesus Name” has been a controversy regarding military funerals –

    Pentagon – POLITICS
    Texas Lawmaker Calls for Congressional Probe Into Ban of Christian Prayers at Military Funerals

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/26/texas-lawmaker-calls-for-congressional-probe-into-ban-christian-prayers-at/

    The liberals cannot accept the fact….. prayer is a freedom we all have, whether it be in a stadium, a military funeral, or a child praying in school. Freedom of Religion is a right in the United States!

  • Cincinnatus

    Can I ask since when Ron Paul and his “variety” are part of the “liberal left”?

  • Cincinnatus

    Can I ask since when Ron Paul and his “variety” are part of the “liberal left”?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Sorry, Grace (@119), if you want me to reply, you’re going to have to make a coherent point.

    But it looks like you may have found another front in the Culture War to distract you, so maybe you can go occupy yourself with that one (though I’ll tell you that even the Fox News rendering of that story makes clear what’s actually going on, contra all the spin).

    And Cincinnatus (@120), “liberal left” is just one of the many labels for what is more accurately termed, by Culture Warriors, to be “Them” — as in the battles between Us and Them that Culture Warriors are always waging.

    The fact that Paul is neither “liberal” nor “left” does not matter as much as does the fact that Paul is not in lockstep with the Culture Warriors’ goals, and, as such, has been banished to the great, unwashed Them. As such, Paul is also a godless communist, a Nazi, a union thug, and a public school teacher.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Sorry, Grace (@119), if you want me to reply, you’re going to have to make a coherent point.

    But it looks like you may have found another front in the Culture War to distract you, so maybe you can go occupy yourself with that one (though I’ll tell you that even the Fox News rendering of that story makes clear what’s actually going on, contra all the spin).

    And Cincinnatus (@120), “liberal left” is just one of the many labels for what is more accurately termed, by Culture Warriors, to be “Them” — as in the battles between Us and Them that Culture Warriors are always waging.

    The fact that Paul is neither “liberal” nor “left” does not matter as much as does the fact that Paul is not in lockstep with the Culture Warriors’ goals, and, as such, has been banished to the great, unwashed Them. As such, Paul is also a godless communist, a Nazi, a union thug, and a public school teacher.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus – 120

    I didn’t say Ron Paul is part of the left – he does however, support many laws that would make, what is now illegal, legal.

    Below is the SHORT LIST!

    Ron Paul:

    Legalizing prostitution is about protecting liberty. (May 2011)
    Our drug war is driving our immigration policy. (Sep 2011)
    We don’t need laws to tell us to not use heroin. (May 2011)
    Drug War allows drug lords to make a lot more money. (Apr 2011)
    Someday we’ll wake up and end the Second Prohibition. (Apr 2011)

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus – 120

    I didn’t say Ron Paul is part of the left – he does however, support many laws that would make, what is now illegal, legal.

    Below is the SHORT LIST!

    Ron Paul:

    Legalizing prostitution is about protecting liberty. (May 2011)
    Our drug war is driving our immigration policy. (Sep 2011)
    We don’t need laws to tell us to not use heroin. (May 2011)
    Drug War allows drug lords to make a lot more money. (Apr 2011)
    Someday we’ll wake up and end the Second Prohibition. (Apr 2011)

  • Cincinnatus

    While it’s pointless to engage you, Grace, might I point out that you only listed two things that are “now illegal, legal”?

    1. Prostitution. I have mixed feelings about this, by the way. While I don’t believe that prostitution is morally acceptable, like Augustine and Aquinas, I recognize that prostitution is a vice that cannot be eliminated and that it might thus do more harm than good to prohibit it coercively.

    2. Drugs. Yes, Paul wants to end the drug war. So do I and other conservatives. There is unanimous agreement among analysts that the drug war, which has cost many billions since its inception, has been an abject failure. Furthermore, it is the American taste for narcotics and the fact that we prohibit drugs altogether that feeds a foreign, cartel-dominated drug market. This has single-handedly produced massive political instability in Mexico, as well as a military campaign that has cost the lives of over 3,000 Mexicans. This conflict would end almost immediately if drugs were legalized, or at the very least if the war on drugs were ended. I’m not sure if this in itself is a good enough reason to regulate rather than prohibit various drugs, but it’s true nonetheless. The drug war does “drive our immigration policy” and “allow drug lords to make a lot more money.” And, in the case of marijuana, illegality is rather akin to Prohibition.

    Just my two cents.

    And I’m really not sure what any of this has to do with Tebow. Or the culture war, for that matter, since there isn’t a prominent movement in the United States to legalize prostitution, etc.

  • Cincinnatus

    While it’s pointless to engage you, Grace, might I point out that you only listed two things that are “now illegal, legal”?

    1. Prostitution. I have mixed feelings about this, by the way. While I don’t believe that prostitution is morally acceptable, like Augustine and Aquinas, I recognize that prostitution is a vice that cannot be eliminated and that it might thus do more harm than good to prohibit it coercively.

    2. Drugs. Yes, Paul wants to end the drug war. So do I and other conservatives. There is unanimous agreement among analysts that the drug war, which has cost many billions since its inception, has been an abject failure. Furthermore, it is the American taste for narcotics and the fact that we prohibit drugs altogether that feeds a foreign, cartel-dominated drug market. This has single-handedly produced massive political instability in Mexico, as well as a military campaign that has cost the lives of over 3,000 Mexicans. This conflict would end almost immediately if drugs were legalized, or at the very least if the war on drugs were ended. I’m not sure if this in itself is a good enough reason to regulate rather than prohibit various drugs, but it’s true nonetheless. The drug war does “drive our immigration policy” and “allow drug lords to make a lot more money.” And, in the case of marijuana, illegality is rather akin to Prohibition.

    Just my two cents.

    And I’m really not sure what any of this has to do with Tebow. Or the culture war, for that matter, since there isn’t a prominent movement in the United States to legalize prostitution, etc.

  • Richard

    What does Ron Paul have to do with Tebow?

  • Richard

    What does Ron Paul have to do with Tebow?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    What does Tebow have to do with “the Culture War”?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    What does Tebow have to do with “the Culture War”?

  • Grace

    This is my first paragraph in post 119, which you mis-understand.

    “The Culture War response for any and all beliefs that don’t correspond with the liberal left – ie “Prayer in public schools” and many other subjects that don’t set well with the Ron Paul variety is bogus.”

    It’s the “variety” folks,…. of which Ron Paul is a member, as well as many of YOU. It wasn’t written to discuss Ron Paul -

  • Grace

    This is my first paragraph in post 119, which you mis-understand.

    “The Culture War response for any and all beliefs that don’t correspond with the liberal left – ie “Prayer in public schools” and many other subjects that don’t set well with the Ron Paul variety is bogus.”

    It’s the “variety” folks,…. of which Ron Paul is a member, as well as many of YOU. It wasn’t written to discuss Ron Paul -

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD@125: Serious question? Tebow is a touchstone, a current battlefield, in the contemporary culture war. For the evangelical culture warriors on the Right–like Grace, apparently–Tebow is a symbol for appropriate “Christian” “values” and their loud expression in the evil, secular world. He stands for everything any good Christian should: pro-life, pro-marriage, etc., and he smothers it all in a generous dollop of public piety. His skewering in the media is obviously evidence of a secular librul’ conspiracy to oppress evangelicalism, remove religion from the public sphere, and transform America into a godless wasteland. The brouhaha over Tebow is the culture war in microcosm.

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD@125: Serious question? Tebow is a touchstone, a current battlefield, in the contemporary culture war. For the evangelical culture warriors on the Right–like Grace, apparently–Tebow is a symbol for appropriate “Christian” “values” and their loud expression in the evil, secular world. He stands for everything any good Christian should: pro-life, pro-marriage, etc., and he smothers it all in a generous dollop of public piety. His skewering in the media is obviously evidence of a secular librul’ conspiracy to oppress evangelicalism, remove religion from the public sphere, and transform America into a godless wasteland. The brouhaha over Tebow is the culture war in microcosm.

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 125

    “What does Tebow have to do with “the Culture War”?”

    tODD brought “Culture-War” up in post 42, and when that didin’t ‘take HOLD.. he posted again @ 108 on four occasions using the phrases. Now it’s BIG NEWS, for tODD :razz:

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 125

    “What does Tebow have to do with “the Culture War”?”

    tODD brought “Culture-War” up in post 42, and when that didin’t ‘take HOLD.. he posted again @ 108 on four occasions using the phrases. Now it’s BIG NEWS, for tODD :razz:

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Cincinnatus, #127: “Tebow is a touchstone, a current battlefield, in the contemporary culture war. … The brouhaha over Tebow is the culture war in microcosm.”

    Oh dear. Given this perspective, Dr. Veith seems to be encouraging and fomenting a “Culture War” with his closing remarks:

    Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    Dr. Gene Veith… a Culture Warrior? A Culture War Agitator? Who knew?!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Cincinnatus, #127: “Tebow is a touchstone, a current battlefield, in the contemporary culture war. … The brouhaha over Tebow is the culture war in microcosm.”

    Oh dear. Given this perspective, Dr. Veith seems to be encouraging and fomenting a “Culture War” with his closing remarks:

    Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    Dr. Gene Veith… a Culture Warrior? A Culture War Agitator? Who knew?!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus

    “For the evangelical culture warriors on the Right–like Grace, apparently–Tebow is a symbol for appropriate “Christian” “values” and their loud expression in the evil, secular world”

    NAY – what you’re missing after all the comments is this; Tebow has the right to kneel, pray and be thankful, on or off the field – your smearing him because he does so, is transparent. So you lash out at myself, or anyone else who supports this athlete. Maybe it’s just plain envy for many who either don’t share the Gospel, OR those who don’t want the Gospel shared, or maybe it’s because some wanted to play sports in school, but they didn’t have the ability. When you read this thread over, one can see the true :mrgreen: coming out.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus

    “For the evangelical culture warriors on the Right–like Grace, apparently–Tebow is a symbol for appropriate “Christian” “values” and their loud expression in the evil, secular world”

    NAY – what you’re missing after all the comments is this; Tebow has the right to kneel, pray and be thankful, on or off the field – your smearing him because he does so, is transparent. So you lash out at myself, or anyone else who supports this athlete. Maybe it’s just plain envy for many who either don’t share the Gospel, OR those who don’t want the Gospel shared, or maybe it’s because some wanted to play sports in school, but they didn’t have the ability. When you read this thread over, one can see the true :mrgreen: coming out.

  • Cincinnatus

    Oh, I see. This is all because I was bullied by the jocks in high school. Got it.

    No one is questioning Tebow’s “right” to do anything. We’re questioning whether what he’s doing, within his rights, is a prudent or appropriate display. Does it comport with the words of Christ? I’m skeptical. Is he a hero? 100% no. If kids are idolizing Tebow, they need better heroes. If we are looking to Tebow as a perfect image of the True Gospel, methinks American consumerist Christianity has infected us more deeply than I suspected.

    Also, he’s not very good at football, which is really part of my beef: why is a mediocre player getting so much coverage? In other words, at least half my beef is against the mass sports media which, even in the inconsequential world of sports, can’t cover things that, in a relative sense, “matter.”

  • Cincinnatus

    Oh, I see. This is all because I was bullied by the jocks in high school. Got it.

    No one is questioning Tebow’s “right” to do anything. We’re questioning whether what he’s doing, within his rights, is a prudent or appropriate display. Does it comport with the words of Christ? I’m skeptical. Is he a hero? 100% no. If kids are idolizing Tebow, they need better heroes. If we are looking to Tebow as a perfect image of the True Gospel, methinks American consumerist Christianity has infected us more deeply than I suspected.

    Also, he’s not very good at football, which is really part of my beef: why is a mediocre player getting so much coverage? In other words, at least half my beef is against the mass sports media which, even in the inconsequential world of sports, can’t cover things that, in a relative sense, “matter.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@129) said:

    Dr. Gene Veith… a Culture Warrior? A Culture War Agitator? Who knew?!

    Oh please. If you spent any amount of time on this blog — instead of merely chiming in whenever you feel like bashing Lutheranism or whenever Grace needs a helping hand in another Culture War front — you’d know that Dr. Veith is hardly a Culture Warrior.

    That is to say, he sometimes praises ideas that come from the left/Democrats/liberals. He considers ideas even-handedly. He thinks things through.

    As such, no, he’s not a Culture Warrior. I happen to disagree with him on this issue, but I’m pretty certain that’s not his schtick.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@129) said:

    Dr. Gene Veith… a Culture Warrior? A Culture War Agitator? Who knew?!

    Oh please. If you spent any amount of time on this blog — instead of merely chiming in whenever you feel like bashing Lutheranism or whenever Grace needs a helping hand in another Culture War front — you’d know that Dr. Veith is hardly a Culture Warrior.

    That is to say, he sometimes praises ideas that come from the left/Democrats/liberals. He considers ideas even-handedly. He thinks things through.

    As such, no, he’s not a Culture Warrior. I happen to disagree with him on this issue, but I’m pretty certain that’s not his schtick.

  • Richard

    I’m still missing something–how is kneeling on a football field, praying publicly, and being thankful–how is ANY of that the Gospel?

  • Richard

    I’m still missing something–how is kneeling on a football field, praying publicly, and being thankful–how is ANY of that the Gospel?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    tODD, #132: “you’d know that Dr. Veith is hardly a Culture Warrior. … As such, no, he’s not a Culture Warrior.”

    Here’s an interview that says different:

    “The Patrick Henry College Institute is working to prevail over the ideas that threaten our freedom—we’ll hear more about this on today’s Home School Heartbeat with Michael Farris.

    Mike Farris:
    We hear a lot about the term “culture war,” how can we win the culture war?

    Dr. Gene Veith:
    Well, the basic unit of every culture is the family. So one of the things Christians can do is to build strong families. Have strong marriages, do good parenting, that’s the biggest thing we can do to really strike a blow for the culture war. The other thing is we can press the advantage that’s now opening up in education. We’re seeing now, among homeschoolers and some of the good Christian schools and colleges like Patrick Henry College that Christians can be better educated than the non-Christians. In the culture, it’s the educated people who tend to be the leaders. So these are two areas in the family and in education that as Christians we have a real advantage. And finally, we need to recover the doctrine of vocation, that’s that whole protestant doctrine about how we are to live out our faith in every dimension of our lives.

    Mike:
    Dr. Veith, I want to thank you for being one of those Christians on the frontlines, both in your writings and in your teaching at Patrick Henry College.

    Dr. Veith:
    Well, thanks for that.

    From Winning the Culture War

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    tODD, #132: “you’d know that Dr. Veith is hardly a Culture Warrior. … As such, no, he’s not a Culture Warrior.”

    Here’s an interview that says different:

    “The Patrick Henry College Institute is working to prevail over the ideas that threaten our freedom—we’ll hear more about this on today’s Home School Heartbeat with Michael Farris.

    Mike Farris:
    We hear a lot about the term “culture war,” how can we win the culture war?

    Dr. Gene Veith:
    Well, the basic unit of every culture is the family. So one of the things Christians can do is to build strong families. Have strong marriages, do good parenting, that’s the biggest thing we can do to really strike a blow for the culture war. The other thing is we can press the advantage that’s now opening up in education. We’re seeing now, among homeschoolers and some of the good Christian schools and colleges like Patrick Henry College that Christians can be better educated than the non-Christians. In the culture, it’s the educated people who tend to be the leaders. So these are two areas in the family and in education that as Christians we have a real advantage. And finally, we need to recover the doctrine of vocation, that’s that whole protestant doctrine about how we are to live out our faith in every dimension of our lives.

    Mike:
    Dr. Veith, I want to thank you for being one of those Christians on the frontlines, both in your writings and in your teaching at Patrick Henry College.

    Dr. Veith:
    Well, thanks for that.

    From Winning the Culture War

  • Med Student

    Cincinnatus @ 131
    I’d say Tebow gets all this coverage because despite the fact that he is a mediocre quarterback (by most traditional NFL standards), he was still chosen to start and recently has been winning games (not single-handedly). I think the fact that he already had a public persona stemming from college as the good Christian kid who does stuff like put Bible verses in his eye black and kneel down to pray in public just draws in an audience who otherwise would ignore football players for the most part.
    I think those are also the reasons people “love” or “hate” him – either because he’s a non-traditional guy who can’t throw well (by NFL standards) but somehow still wins, or because he’s an in-your-face Christian (I mean this in as neutral a way as possible). Maybe some people hate him because their team just lost to the Broncos. I have irrational “hatred” of opposing players/teams right after my team loses too :D

  • Med Student

    Cincinnatus @ 131
    I’d say Tebow gets all this coverage because despite the fact that he is a mediocre quarterback (by most traditional NFL standards), he was still chosen to start and recently has been winning games (not single-handedly). I think the fact that he already had a public persona stemming from college as the good Christian kid who does stuff like put Bible verses in his eye black and kneel down to pray in public just draws in an audience who otherwise would ignore football players for the most part.
    I think those are also the reasons people “love” or “hate” him – either because he’s a non-traditional guy who can’t throw well (by NFL standards) but somehow still wins, or because he’s an in-your-face Christian (I mean this in as neutral a way as possible). Maybe some people hate him because their team just lost to the Broncos. I have irrational “hatred” of opposing players/teams right after my team loses too :D

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@134), you really should do more than merely Google [Gene Veith culture war] and paste in whatever result you find on the first page.

    I mean, maybe Veith is a Culture Warrior. But I have engaged with the man repeatedly since 2007 (the date of your article), and at the very least, he strikes me as far more nuanced than anything you or Grace are coming up with.

    But more to the point, if you would actually read the tactics Veith suggested in order to “win the culture war”, you would see that they are antithetical to what the typical Culture Warrior espouses. Veith says:

    Have strong marriages, do good parenting, that’s the biggest thing we can do. … The other thing is we can press the advantage that’s now opening up in education.

    Where are Veith’s calls for legislation to enact biblical morality? Where are his calls to vote against the Democrats and give money to the Republicans, in order that God’s Own Party may prevail? Where does Veith suggest that we attempt to muscle our way into every public sphere and shut down those on the liberal/secular/atheist/pro-abortion/Ron-Paul side from speaking equally?

    Here, compare Veith’s own words on (Culture Warrior fave topic) courtyard Christmas displays with those from Culture Warriors in the comments. That’s from a few days ago, not four years ago.

    Regardless, whatever Veith may or may not be, it doesn’t change the fact that you and Grace are Culture Warriors, even if you don’t like the label. (And why not? Own up to it, I say.)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@134), you really should do more than merely Google [Gene Veith culture war] and paste in whatever result you find on the first page.

    I mean, maybe Veith is a Culture Warrior. But I have engaged with the man repeatedly since 2007 (the date of your article), and at the very least, he strikes me as far more nuanced than anything you or Grace are coming up with.

    But more to the point, if you would actually read the tactics Veith suggested in order to “win the culture war”, you would see that they are antithetical to what the typical Culture Warrior espouses. Veith says:

    Have strong marriages, do good parenting, that’s the biggest thing we can do. … The other thing is we can press the advantage that’s now opening up in education.

    Where are Veith’s calls for legislation to enact biblical morality? Where are his calls to vote against the Democrats and give money to the Republicans, in order that God’s Own Party may prevail? Where does Veith suggest that we attempt to muscle our way into every public sphere and shut down those on the liberal/secular/atheist/pro-abortion/Ron-Paul side from speaking equally?

    Here, compare Veith’s own words on (Culture Warrior fave topic) courtyard Christmas displays with those from Culture Warriors in the comments. That’s from a few days ago, not four years ago.

    Regardless, whatever Veith may or may not be, it doesn’t change the fact that you and Grace are Culture Warriors, even if you don’t like the label. (And why not? Own up to it, I say.)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    By the way, I’d just like to point out that … I called it!.

    Cincinnatus said (@120), in response to Grace (@119):

    Since when Ron Paul and his “variety” are part of the “liberal left”?

    I said (@121):

    “Liberal left” is just one of the many labels for what is more accurately termed, by Culture Warriors, to be “Them” — as in the battles between Us and Them that Culture Warriors are always waging.

    And then Grace responded herself, noting that (@126):

    It’s the “variety” folks,…. of which Ron Paul is a member, as well as many of YOU.

    See? Ron Paul is one of Them, to a Culture Warrior. As are you and I, Cincinnatus, among others.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    By the way, I’d just like to point out that … I called it!.

    Cincinnatus said (@120), in response to Grace (@119):

    Since when Ron Paul and his “variety” are part of the “liberal left”?

    I said (@121):

    “Liberal left” is just one of the many labels for what is more accurately termed, by Culture Warriors, to be “Them” — as in the battles between Us and Them that Culture Warriors are always waging.

    And then Grace responded herself, noting that (@126):

    It’s the “variety” folks,…. of which Ron Paul is a member, as well as many of YOU.

    See? Ron Paul is one of Them, to a Culture Warrior. As are you and I, Cincinnatus, among others.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    tODD: “I mean, maybe Veith is a Culture Warrior.”

    Dr. Veith:

    o “Have strong marriages, do good parenting, that’s the biggest thing we can do to really strike a blow for the culture war.

    o “Shouldn’t we support him [Tim Tebow] and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    o “And finally, we need to recover the doctrine of vocation, that’s that whole protestant doctrine about how we are to live out our faith in every dimension of our lives.”

    (Tim Tebow is recovering Dr. Veith’s doctrine of vocation as an NFL quarterback.)

    3 Rousing Cheers for Dr. Gene Veith, a Culture Warrior!!!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    tODD: “I mean, maybe Veith is a Culture Warrior.”

    Dr. Veith:

    o “Have strong marriages, do good parenting, that’s the biggest thing we can do to really strike a blow for the culture war.

    o “Shouldn’t we support him [Tim Tebow] and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    o “And finally, we need to recover the doctrine of vocation, that’s that whole protestant doctrine about how we are to live out our faith in every dimension of our lives.”

    (Tim Tebow is recovering Dr. Veith’s doctrine of vocation as an NFL quarterback.)

    3 Rousing Cheers for Dr. Gene Veith, a Culture Warrior!!!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I’d also like to point out how true-to-form it is for a Culture Warrior like Grace to attempt to make the discussion one of “rights”, as she did when she said (@130):

    Tebow has the right to kneel, pray and be thankful, on or off the field…

    It’s almost never a question of wisdom or propriety when it comes to the Culture War. No. If Christians have a legal right to do something, then by gum, they have to do it! They should shove that legal right in everyone’s face!

    Accordingly, it is also popular for Culture Warriors to attempt to frame any criticism of their tactics (or those they support) as somehow intended to take away rights.

    Note how this involves entwining legal concepts (e.g. constitutionality) with spiritual ones, appearing to conflate them — whatever is legal must be wise for a Christian. Which, of course, Culture Warriors do in reverse, as well, attempting to enact legislation that enforces their understanding of morality — whatever is sinful must be made illegal.

    Because they appear unable to grasp the concept of wisdom, Culture Warriors often view criticisms of their tactics as “envy” — that is, you clearly want something that they (or their “heroes”) have, or why else would you be complaining?

    But then, if they are correct, does that mean that Grace’s continued insistence on repeatedly attacking the very small part of Martin Luther’s oeuvre with which she is familiar … do her actions then point us to a deep covetousness towards something Luther had? Maybe Grace wishes she could throw a football like Martin Luther did?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I’d also like to point out how true-to-form it is for a Culture Warrior like Grace to attempt to make the discussion one of “rights”, as she did when she said (@130):

    Tebow has the right to kneel, pray and be thankful, on or off the field…

    It’s almost never a question of wisdom or propriety when it comes to the Culture War. No. If Christians have a legal right to do something, then by gum, they have to do it! They should shove that legal right in everyone’s face!

    Accordingly, it is also popular for Culture Warriors to attempt to frame any criticism of their tactics (or those they support) as somehow intended to take away rights.

    Note how this involves entwining legal concepts (e.g. constitutionality) with spiritual ones, appearing to conflate them — whatever is legal must be wise for a Christian. Which, of course, Culture Warriors do in reverse, as well, attempting to enact legislation that enforces their understanding of morality — whatever is sinful must be made illegal.

    Because they appear unable to grasp the concept of wisdom, Culture Warriors often view criticisms of their tactics as “envy” — that is, you clearly want something that they (or their “heroes”) have, or why else would you be complaining?

    But then, if they are correct, does that mean that Grace’s continued insistence on repeatedly attacking the very small part of Martin Luther’s oeuvre with which she is familiar … do her actions then point us to a deep covetousness towards something Luther had? Maybe Grace wishes she could throw a football like Martin Luther did?

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD: I’m not really sure what your aim is in this current diversion. Are you attempting to assert, spuriously, that Veith is a typical culture-warrior? He’s not, but even if he were, what of it? And are you denying that you (and/or Grace) are a culture warrior? On what grounds? And, back to the topic at hand, how is the battle over Tebow not related to the culture war and the issues its warriors hold dear?

    Let’s get back to the important question: is Tebow’s public piety truly Christlike? And is it communicating the Gospel? How? And why do evangelicals idolize a mediocre football player? There are lots of “good kids” and Christians in football. Does Tebow’s ostentation make him a “superior” Christian or person? (Sounds to me like Law, by the way.)

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD: I’m not really sure what your aim is in this current diversion. Are you attempting to assert, spuriously, that Veith is a typical culture-warrior? He’s not, but even if he were, what of it? And are you denying that you (and/or Grace) are a culture warrior? On what grounds? And, back to the topic at hand, how is the battle over Tebow not related to the culture war and the issues its warriors hold dear?

    Let’s get back to the important question: is Tebow’s public piety truly Christlike? And is it communicating the Gospel? How? And why do evangelicals idolize a mediocre football player? There are lots of “good kids” and Christians in football. Does Tebow’s ostentation make him a “superior” Christian or person? (Sounds to me like Law, by the way.)

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 138

    Great post :) – I don’t think tODD grasps the whole “Culture Warrior” thing, unless it’s someone else?

  • Grace

    Truth Unites… and Divides @ 138

    Great post :) – I don’t think tODD grasps the whole “Culture Warrior” thing, unless it’s someone else?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    On Topic: Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith asks: Anti-Tebow Bigotry?

    Answer: Yes!

    Anti-Tebow Bigotry by some Lutherans?

    Answer: Yes!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    On Topic: Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith asks: Anti-Tebow Bigotry?

    Answer: Yes!

    Anti-Tebow Bigotry by some Lutherans?

    Answer: Yes!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 140

    “Let’s get back to the important question: is Tebow’s public piety truly Christlike? And is it communicating the Gospel? How? And why do evangelicals idolize a mediocre football player?”

    It’s that ole :mrgreen: – Judging a kid who many young people look up to, along with others, who has stood firm against abortion, thanks God for what he’s done for him, prays on his knees….. and then there is YOU, who finds fault.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 140

    “Let’s get back to the important question: is Tebow’s public piety truly Christlike? And is it communicating the Gospel? How? And why do evangelicals idolize a mediocre football player?”

    It’s that ole :mrgreen: – Judging a kid who many young people look up to, along with others, who has stood firm against abortion, thanks God for what he’s done for him, prays on his knees….. and then there is YOU, who finds fault.

  • Cincinnatus

    So I’m a bigot for finding Tebow’s displays (and those of his devotees) in bad taste. Are you a bigot for labeling me a bigot simply because I don’t think Tebow’s actions are prudent or becoming?

    There are too many layers of bigotry here, man! Bigots all the way down!

    Labeling me a bigot, by the way, is not an ideal tactic for advancing rational, civil discussion, which is something we generally seek to emulate here.

  • Cincinnatus

    So I’m a bigot for finding Tebow’s displays (and those of his devotees) in bad taste. Are you a bigot for labeling me a bigot simply because I don’t think Tebow’s actions are prudent or becoming?

    There are too many layers of bigotry here, man! Bigots all the way down!

    Labeling me a bigot, by the way, is not an ideal tactic for advancing rational, civil discussion, which is something we generally seek to emulate here.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@143:

    And then there’s YOU, who finds fault with one of the greatest theologians (I say this as a non-Lutheran) and greatest preachers of the Gospel in history simply because he made an offensive (by contemporary standards) remark once.

    You never cease to entertain, Grace. Hey, you know who else “stood firm against abortion”? Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin. Both explicitly banned abortion in their countries. So did the Ayatollah Khomeini and Saddam Hussein. True heroes! I hate to Godwin this thread, as they say, but at this point, there’s nothing to salvage. If your sole reason for idolizing Tebow is the fact that he is pro-abortion, you need better standards for heroism. Though you have proved yourself by that statement a quintessential culture warrior. Not necessarily an insult. It is what it is.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@143:

    And then there’s YOU, who finds fault with one of the greatest theologians (I say this as a non-Lutheran) and greatest preachers of the Gospel in history simply because he made an offensive (by contemporary standards) remark once.

    You never cease to entertain, Grace. Hey, you know who else “stood firm against abortion”? Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin. Both explicitly banned abortion in their countries. So did the Ayatollah Khomeini and Saddam Hussein. True heroes! I hate to Godwin this thread, as they say, but at this point, there’s nothing to salvage. If your sole reason for idolizing Tebow is the fact that he is pro-abortion, you need better standards for heroism. Though you have proved yourself by that statement a quintessential culture warrior. Not necessarily an insult. It is what it is.

  • Cincinnatus

    “is the fact that he is pro-LIFE,” of course*

  • Cincinnatus

    “is the fact that he is pro-LIFE,” of course*

  • Richard

    And I think the point of Dr. Veith’s remarks on vocation would be: is Tebow being faithful to his vocation as an NFL QB, or not, by making an ostentatious show of his piety before football fans in his vocation as a football player? Can reasonable people disagree about this without being called “agents of darkness,” or worse–Ron Paul supporters? Has Christian conversation come down to this?

  • Richard

    And I think the point of Dr. Veith’s remarks on vocation would be: is Tebow being faithful to his vocation as an NFL QB, or not, by making an ostentatious show of his piety before football fans in his vocation as a football player? Can reasonable people disagree about this without being called “agents of darkness,” or worse–Ron Paul supporters? Has Christian conversation come down to this?

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 145

    “And then there’s YOU, who finds fault with one of the greatest theologians (I say this as a non-Lutheran) and greatest preachers of the Gospel in history simply because he made an offensive (by contemporary standards) remark once.”

    I don’t agree that Luther was one of the “greatest preachers” nor do I believe that Calvin was either. There are many Christian Believers who believe they were wrong on different doctrines.

    As far as the ‘book…. Only once? or was it a whole book?

    There are a few things which I disagree with Luther, that would include Baptism and Absolution – with Calvin it would be Baptism as well, and his cruel treatment of those who didn’t agree with him ie: Baptism and the Trinity.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 145

    “And then there’s YOU, who finds fault with one of the greatest theologians (I say this as a non-Lutheran) and greatest preachers of the Gospel in history simply because he made an offensive (by contemporary standards) remark once.”

    I don’t agree that Luther was one of the “greatest preachers” nor do I believe that Calvin was either. There are many Christian Believers who believe they were wrong on different doctrines.

    As far as the ‘book…. Only once? or was it a whole book?

    There are a few things which I disagree with Luther, that would include Baptism and Absolution – with Calvin it would be Baptism as well, and his cruel treatment of those who didn’t agree with him ie: Baptism and the Trinity.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Gene Veith: “But is there anything actually wrong with Tebow being so demonstrative about it? And shouldn’t we cut him some slack about it?

    Can’t folks cut Tebow some slack about it as Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Veith asks?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Gene Veith: “But is there anything actually wrong with Tebow being so demonstrative about it? And shouldn’t we cut him some slack about it?

    Can’t folks cut Tebow some slack about it as Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Veith asks?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus (@140), I’m not sure if you were around the last time TUaD made himself known on this blog, but he does seem to have a somewhat consistent M.O.

    Namely, he’s not trying to actually engage in discussion (he usually lets other people make his points for him, and then he quotes them repeatedly, without engaging in replies to him). I believe his argument, such as it is, goes like this:

    1) Veith runs this blog, so he therefore is in some sort of superior position to the commenters, in this context.
    2) Veith’s quotes can be cherry-picked and proof-texted to make him sound like he aligns himself with Position A (as long as you ignore a good deal of everything else that Veith has said elsewhere).
    3) TUaD also aligns himself with Position A
    4) ???
    5) TUaD wins!

    Honestly, I think that’s it. Except, of course, that TUaD may try to drive his “win” home through repetition for several more posts.

    He’s fashioned this flimsy Veith sock puppet that he really hopes you think is actually Veith, and he hopes that you listen to the sock puppet when it says that it agrees 100% with TUaD. Never mind that TUaD’s lips are moving.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus (@140), I’m not sure if you were around the last time TUaD made himself known on this blog, but he does seem to have a somewhat consistent M.O.

    Namely, he’s not trying to actually engage in discussion (he usually lets other people make his points for him, and then he quotes them repeatedly, without engaging in replies to him). I believe his argument, such as it is, goes like this:

    1) Veith runs this blog, so he therefore is in some sort of superior position to the commenters, in this context.
    2) Veith’s quotes can be cherry-picked and proof-texted to make him sound like he aligns himself with Position A (as long as you ignore a good deal of everything else that Veith has said elsewhere).
    3) TUaD also aligns himself with Position A
    4) ???
    5) TUaD wins!

    Honestly, I think that’s it. Except, of course, that TUaD may try to drive his “win” home through repetition for several more posts.

    He’s fashioned this flimsy Veith sock puppet that he really hopes you think is actually Veith, and he hopes that you listen to the sock puppet when it says that it agrees 100% with TUaD. Never mind that TUaD’s lips are moving.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also fascinating: how TUaD appropriates an ur-liberal trope by claiming (hilariously, @142) that anyone who criticizes anything done by Tebow therefore is “bigoted” against him.

    Yes, that’s right, the Culture Warriors are appropriating the worst excesses of political correctness in an attempt to silence any and all criticism of an athlete wordlessly kneeling on a football field.

    No one has ever accused the Culture Warriors of tactical genius.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also fascinating: how TUaD appropriates an ur-liberal trope by claiming (hilariously, @142) that anyone who criticizes anything done by Tebow therefore is “bigoted” against him.

    Yes, that’s right, the Culture Warriors are appropriating the worst excesses of political correctness in an attempt to silence any and all criticism of an athlete wordlessly kneeling on a football field.

    No one has ever accused the Culture Warriors of tactical genius.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Full Text of Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith on “Anti-Tebow Bigotry?”:

    “A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow. And it’s because of his open Christianity. Even other Christians sometimes squirm over his overt piety, putting John 3:16 on the patches under his eyes and kneeling down to pray after each of his numerous touchdowns. And further confounding his critics is that, despite what would seem to be poor football technique and bad passing, he keeps leading his team to one miraculous come-from-behind last minute victory after another!

    Many Christians are not that demonstrative about our faith, which is certainly legitimate. But is there anything actually wrong with Tebow being so demonstrative about it? And shouldn’t we cut him some slack about it? Yes, we are to beware those who practice their piety before men, but Tebow certainly isn’t doing it to make himself look good–as might happen in another age–since it is only attracting scorn and contempt. Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Full Text of Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith on “Anti-Tebow Bigotry?”:

    “A lot of people just HATE Denver quarterback Tim Tebow. And it’s because of his open Christianity. Even other Christians sometimes squirm over his overt piety, putting John 3:16 on the patches under his eyes and kneeling down to pray after each of his numerous touchdowns. And further confounding his critics is that, despite what would seem to be poor football technique and bad passing, he keeps leading his team to one miraculous come-from-behind last minute victory after another!

    Many Christians are not that demonstrative about our faith, which is certainly legitimate. But is there anything actually wrong with Tebow being so demonstrative about it? And shouldn’t we cut him some slack about it? Yes, we are to beware those who practice their piety before men, but Tebow certainly isn’t doing it to make himself look good–as might happen in another age–since it is only attracting scorn and contempt. Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

  • Grace

    It appears there is ‘ misunderstanding as to the definition of a “sock puppet”

    SOCK PUPPET

    “A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term—a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock—originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an internet community who spoke to, or about himself while pretending to be another person. The term now includes other uses of misleading online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a third party or organization. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_sock_puppet

  • Grace

    It appears there is ‘ misunderstanding as to the definition of a “sock puppet”

    SOCK PUPPET

    “A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term—a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock—originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an internet community who spoke to, or about himself while pretending to be another person. The term now includes other uses of misleading online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a third party or organization. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_sock_puppet

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD@153: Thanks, I guess, for quoting from the original blog post, which is clearly visible and readable above. Anything to add, or is that it? Just a cut-and-paste from the original post? Nothing else? Ok…

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD@153: Thanks, I guess, for quoting from the original blog post, which is clearly visible and readable above. Anything to add, or is that it? Just a cut-and-paste from the original post? Nothing else? Ok…

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    @154

    You’re welcome. Just didn’t want anyone thinking I was cherry-picking or proof-texting Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith’s thoughts/words on the topic of Anti-Tebow Bigotry.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    @154

    You’re welcome. Just didn’t want anyone thinking I was cherry-picking or proof-texting Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith’s thoughts/words on the topic of Anti-Tebow Bigotry.

  • Richard

    And I never did get my questions answered. Oh, well. Culture warrior are more interested in yelling and labeling/demonizing their opponents.

  • Richard

    And I never did get my questions answered. Oh, well. Culture warrior are more interested in yelling and labeling/demonizing their opponents.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Grace, #141: “I don’t think tODD grasps the whole “Culture Warrior” thing, unless it’s someone else?”

    Well, maybe tODD can grasp what Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith says from this article on “Cultural Agendas” where he supports social conservatives:

    “Think-tank scholar Jeffrey Bell, however, in an article in The Weekly Standard argues that American-style social conservatism plays a crucial and necessary role in contemporary politics.

    Bell points out, among other things, that it is not just social conservatives who have a cultural agenda. The true agenda of the left is not so much economic or big-government as cultural. And someone needs to oppose it.

    While the last century’s conflict with Marxism and socialism was indeed a battle over economics and against totalitarianism, Bell sees those ideologies as only one manifestation of a larger leftist tide.

    Originally, beginning with Rousseau, the left had little to say about economics, promoting instead ending monarchy, circumscribing religion, and questioning the traditional family. “The striking thing about the history of the left,” says Bell, “is its singleness of vision amid a breathtaking variety of means. The goal of the left is the liberation of mankind from traditional institutions and codes of behavior, especially moral codes. It seeks a restoration (or achievement) of a state of nature, one of absolute individual liberty—universal happiness without the need for laws.”

    While many conservatives in Europe and the United States focus on free-market economics and small government, they do not realize that hard-core leftists do not really care much about such things. Meanwhile, the social liberals march through the culture largely unopposed, often accompanied by economic and political conservatives.

    Small government, free economics, and personal liberty are indeed important, but they rest on a cultural infrastructure and cannot survive in Rousseau’s nihilistic state of nature.

    This is why social conservatives are so important, not only to the conservative political movement but to the nation as a whole. There is no one else to counter the left’s assault on not just Western culture but culture itself.”

    3 Rousing Cheers for Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith!!!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Grace, #141: “I don’t think tODD grasps the whole “Culture Warrior” thing, unless it’s someone else?”

    Well, maybe tODD can grasp what Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith says from this article on “Cultural Agendas” where he supports social conservatives:

    “Think-tank scholar Jeffrey Bell, however, in an article in The Weekly Standard argues that American-style social conservatism plays a crucial and necessary role in contemporary politics.

    Bell points out, among other things, that it is not just social conservatives who have a cultural agenda. The true agenda of the left is not so much economic or big-government as cultural. And someone needs to oppose it.

    While the last century’s conflict with Marxism and socialism was indeed a battle over economics and against totalitarianism, Bell sees those ideologies as only one manifestation of a larger leftist tide.

    Originally, beginning with Rousseau, the left had little to say about economics, promoting instead ending monarchy, circumscribing religion, and questioning the traditional family. “The striking thing about the history of the left,” says Bell, “is its singleness of vision amid a breathtaking variety of means. The goal of the left is the liberation of mankind from traditional institutions and codes of behavior, especially moral codes. It seeks a restoration (or achievement) of a state of nature, one of absolute individual liberty—universal happiness without the need for laws.”

    While many conservatives in Europe and the United States focus on free-market economics and small government, they do not realize that hard-core leftists do not really care much about such things. Meanwhile, the social liberals march through the culture largely unopposed, often accompanied by economic and political conservatives.

    Small government, free economics, and personal liberty are indeed important, but they rest on a cultural infrastructure and cannot survive in Rousseau’s nihilistic state of nature.

    This is why social conservatives are so important, not only to the conservative political movement but to the nation as a whole. There is no one else to counter the left’s assault on not just Western culture but culture itself.”

    3 Rousing Cheers for Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith!!!

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD, in your endless quotations, are you trying to insult Veith by labeling him as something that you proudly are yourself? That’s like me, a straight white guy, making fun of someone for being straight and white.

  • Cincinnatus

    TUaD, in your endless quotations, are you trying to insult Veith by labeling him as something that you proudly are yourself? That’s like me, a straight white guy, making fun of someone for being straight and white.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, aside from (sort of? maybe?) attempting to insult Dr. Veith, what are you actually trying to prove? That Dr. Veith supports Tebow? Ok, clearly. That’s stated in the original post, which you are cutting-and-pasting incessantly. So what? The point of Veith’s post was to spur discussion. Just because Dr. Veith said it doesn’t mean that the rest of us agree with it, and it certainly doesn’t mean that he’s correct simply because he said it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, aside from (sort of? maybe?) attempting to insult Dr. Veith, what are you actually trying to prove? That Dr. Veith supports Tebow? Ok, clearly. That’s stated in the original post, which you are cutting-and-pasting incessantly. So what? The point of Veith’s post was to spur discussion. Just because Dr. Veith said it doesn’t mean that the rest of us agree with it, and it certainly doesn’t mean that he’s correct simply because he said it.

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Well, at least the media is wrong about Tebow being a polarizing figure. Just look at all of the consensus here!
    :-)

  • http://chaz-lehmann.livejournal.com Rev. Charles Lehmann

    Well, at least the media is wrong about Tebow being a polarizing figure. Just look at all of the consensus here!
    :-)

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Acknowledging that Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith has written a post about Anti-Tebow Bigotry is merely a matter of common-sense observation.

    As such,

    3 Rousing Cheers for Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith!!!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Acknowledging that Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith has written a post about Anti-Tebow Bigotry is merely a matter of common-sense observation.

    As such,

    3 Rousing Cheers for Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith!!!

  • Cincinnatus

    So in other words, TUaD, your point is that you have no point. Thanks for clearing that up–and wasting everyone’s time.

  • Cincinnatus

    So in other words, TUaD, your point is that you have no point. Thanks for clearing that up–and wasting everyone’s time.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    You don’t appreciate Lutheran Dr. Gene Veith being a Culture Warrior?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    You don’t appreciate Lutheran Dr. Gene Veith being a Culture Warrior?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Once again, can I say? I called it! (@150):

    Honestly, I think that’s it. Except, of course, that TUaD may try to drive his “win” home through repetition for several more posts.

    Since then, all TUaD has been capable of doing is wanly repeating (@152, 155, 157, 161, and 163, sort of) his ginned-up phrase “Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith” and paste in things we’ve all already read.

    Obvious Troll is obvious.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Once again, can I say? I called it! (@150):

    Honestly, I think that’s it. Except, of course, that TUaD may try to drive his “win” home through repetition for several more posts.

    Since then, all TUaD has been capable of doing is wanly repeating (@152, 155, 157, 161, and 163, sort of) his ginned-up phrase “Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith” and paste in things we’ve all already read.

    Obvious Troll is obvious.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe people don’t like Tebow’s confidence. There are plenty of athletes that do this or that to get attention. Occasionally they will get asked about it. They will tend to down play it or some such. Tebow is bold in his uncoolness, even defiant, but in a nice way. He isn’t insulting others, but makes it clear that he thinks he is right. In this age, that absolute confidence in being right about his Christian convictions is threatening on kind of a gut instinct level. Tebow is symbolic of the mind over matter kind of person weaker willed people sometimes wish they could be but he actually is. There is probably not a little jealousy on that point.

    Funny Tebow question

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe people don’t like Tebow’s confidence. There are plenty of athletes that do this or that to get attention. Occasionally they will get asked about it. They will tend to down play it or some such. Tebow is bold in his uncoolness, even defiant, but in a nice way. He isn’t insulting others, but makes it clear that he thinks he is right. In this age, that absolute confidence in being right about his Christian convictions is threatening on kind of a gut instinct level. Tebow is symbolic of the mind over matter kind of person weaker willed people sometimes wish they could be but he actually is. There is probably not a little jealousy on that point.

    Funny Tebow question

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    To the extent that the Broncos have won, they have won in spite of Tebow. And yet Tebow gets more news coverage, by my reckoning, than Aaron Rodgers himself. Most of this coverage is dedicated to his patently ostentatious public displays of personal piety. It’s frankly annoying, and does more harm than good: he’s embarrassing Christianity, in my opinion.

    Assuming this is the case, we wouldn’t even be aware of his behavior if it weren’t (over) reported. Plenty of other players and their behaviors are ignored.

    I’m glad Tebow (apparently) contributes to his father’s charity. But it is his father’s.

    A bit of a silly criticism. Most haven’t founded any charities and don’t plan to. It is just as worthy to give to a going enterprise as it is to start a new one. How many busy folks in their 20′s are out founding charities? Even so, they still need contributors and patrons. Those contributors and patrons may not have the time and talent to run a charity, so they just give money.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    To the extent that the Broncos have won, they have won in spite of Tebow. And yet Tebow gets more news coverage, by my reckoning, than Aaron Rodgers himself. Most of this coverage is dedicated to his patently ostentatious public displays of personal piety. It’s frankly annoying, and does more harm than good: he’s embarrassing Christianity, in my opinion.

    Assuming this is the case, we wouldn’t even be aware of his behavior if it weren’t (over) reported. Plenty of other players and their behaviors are ignored.

    I’m glad Tebow (apparently) contributes to his father’s charity. But it is his father’s.

    A bit of a silly criticism. Most haven’t founded any charities and don’t plan to. It is just as worthy to give to a going enterprise as it is to start a new one. How many busy folks in their 20′s are out founding charities? Even so, they still need contributors and patrons. Those contributors and patrons may not have the time and talent to run a charity, so they just give money.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Grace, #128: “tODD [first] brought “Culture-War” up in post 42, and when that didin’t ‘take HOLD.. he posted again @ 108 on four occasions using the phrases.”

    Thanks Grace for providing the historical record. I wonder how many times tODD has labelled you (among others) a “Culture Warrior”.

    tODD, why are you a “Culture Warrior” hater?

    Dr. Gene Veith has written a post on Anti-Tebow Bigotry. Your answer, tODD, on why you are a “Culture Warrior” hater could possibly help folks understand some aspects of Anti-Tebow Bigotry. Because some aspects of Anti-Tebow Bigotry might simply be a more targeted instance of Anti-Culture Warrior Bigotry.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Grace, #128: “tODD [first] brought “Culture-War” up in post 42, and when that didin’t ‘take HOLD.. he posted again @ 108 on four occasions using the phrases.”

    Thanks Grace for providing the historical record. I wonder how many times tODD has labelled you (among others) a “Culture Warrior”.

    tODD, why are you a “Culture Warrior” hater?

    Dr. Gene Veith has written a post on Anti-Tebow Bigotry. Your answer, tODD, on why you are a “Culture Warrior” hater could possibly help folks understand some aspects of Anti-Tebow Bigotry. Because some aspects of Anti-Tebow Bigotry might simply be a more targeted instance of Anti-Culture Warrior Bigotry.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 164

    YOU WROTE: “Since then, all TUaD has been capable of doing is wanly repeating (@152, 155, 157, 161, and 163, sort of) his ginned-up phrase “Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith” and paste in things we’ve all already read.

    “Obvious Troll is obvious.”

    Obvious? – check out the nit-picker in the mirror? You troll anyone who disagrees with you. You might check your ‘grammar’ on this last bit, as you’ve been harping at me on that subject!

    troll definition

    “One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”

  • Grace

    tODD @ 164

    YOU WROTE: “Since then, all TUaD has been capable of doing is wanly repeating (@152, 155, 157, 161, and 163, sort of) his ginned-up phrase “Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith” and paste in things we’ve all already read.

    “Obvious Troll is obvious.”

    Obvious? – check out the nit-picker in the mirror? You troll anyone who disagrees with you. You might check your ‘grammar’ on this last bit, as you’ve been harping at me on that subject!

    troll definition

    “One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”

  • Grace

    I don’t believe the anger directed at Tebow, says much for those who continue to down-grade him, his walk with the LORD, his charities, ambitions to do more – including building a hospital in the Philippines –

    I’m sure he’s far from perfect, as are all the rest of us, however this constant harangue against the guy… from Christians is not kind, it reeks of jealousy and resentment.

  • Grace

    I don’t believe the anger directed at Tebow, says much for those who continue to down-grade him, his walk with the LORD, his charities, ambitions to do more – including building a hospital in the Philippines –

    I’m sure he’s far from perfect, as are all the rest of us, however this constant harangue against the guy… from Christians is not kind, it reeks of jealousy and resentment.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@168:

    I can assure you, Grace, that tODD is no troll, at least not in this thread. He’s actually made comments that are serious and substantive, and calling out a fellow conversant for stupid (or non-existent) debating tactics is not trolling.

    For the record, you aren’t really trolling this thread either, with the exception of all the “BOO HOO TODDS,” etc., which are just stupid. Otherwise, you’ve actually said things and stated opinions, though they be blinkered and shallow for the most part. Also, it would help if you didn’t insult everyone who disagrees with you on the question of Tebow by calling them “bigots.” I have a different opinion from you. You’re the one attempting to shut down my beliefs/opinions by labeling them bigotry. So who is the bigger bigot? But anyway, at least you have an opinion about something.

    TUaD, on the other hand, hasn’t said anything. At all. He’s only quoted incessantly from posts we’ve already read numerous times. He hasn’t contributed anything to the discussion except to label Dr. Veith a “Culture Warrior” repeatedly, as if it were some kind of insult (even though TUaD himself is apparently a proud culture warrior). He claims that I’m supposed to “appreciate Lutheran Dr. Veith being a Culture Warrior.” Even if that accusation were true, I don’t even know what that contributes to the discussion or what I’m supposed to appreciate. It’s a total non-sequitur. But aside from that, he doesn’t even seem to have any kind of point at all. So yeah, he’s apparently only trolling to get attention or to annoy tODD and myself.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace@168:

    I can assure you, Grace, that tODD is no troll, at least not in this thread. He’s actually made comments that are serious and substantive, and calling out a fellow conversant for stupid (or non-existent) debating tactics is not trolling.

    For the record, you aren’t really trolling this thread either, with the exception of all the “BOO HOO TODDS,” etc., which are just stupid. Otherwise, you’ve actually said things and stated opinions, though they be blinkered and shallow for the most part. Also, it would help if you didn’t insult everyone who disagrees with you on the question of Tebow by calling them “bigots.” I have a different opinion from you. You’re the one attempting to shut down my beliefs/opinions by labeling them bigotry. So who is the bigger bigot? But anyway, at least you have an opinion about something.

    TUaD, on the other hand, hasn’t said anything. At all. He’s only quoted incessantly from posts we’ve already read numerous times. He hasn’t contributed anything to the discussion except to label Dr. Veith a “Culture Warrior” repeatedly, as if it were some kind of insult (even though TUaD himself is apparently a proud culture warrior). He claims that I’m supposed to “appreciate Lutheran Dr. Veith being a Culture Warrior.” Even if that accusation were true, I don’t even know what that contributes to the discussion or what I’m supposed to appreciate. It’s a total non-sequitur. But aside from that, he doesn’t even seem to have any kind of point at all. So yeah, he’s apparently only trolling to get attention or to annoy tODD and myself.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, Grace, re. your most recent comment, I’m not “angry” at Tebow. I don’t think anyone in this thread is literally “angry” at Tebow.

    I, like others, merely find his displays of piety to be in bad taste, and I don’t think they do anything to reveal/display/advance the Gospel. Moreover, I am also disappointed that evangelicals and other Christians idolize Tebow as some kind of hero. And, further, I am annoyed on a theoretical level that Tebow has become a point of conflict in the ever-annoying culture war (which is also not Gospel). But I’m not “angry,” and I don’t “hate” Tebow.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, Grace, re. your most recent comment, I’m not “angry” at Tebow. I don’t think anyone in this thread is literally “angry” at Tebow.

    I, like others, merely find his displays of piety to be in bad taste, and I don’t think they do anything to reveal/display/advance the Gospel. Moreover, I am also disappointed that evangelicals and other Christians idolize Tebow as some kind of hero. And, further, I am annoyed on a theoretical level that Tebow has become a point of conflict in the ever-annoying culture war (which is also not Gospel). But I’m not “angry,” and I don’t “hate” Tebow.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 170

    YOU WROTE: Also, it would help if you didn’t insult everyone who disagrees with you on the question of Tebow by calling them “bigots.

    I haven’t called anyone a “bigot” – you are confused!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 170

    YOU WROTE: Also, it would help if you didn’t insult everyone who disagrees with you on the question of Tebow by calling them “bigots.

    I haven’t called anyone a “bigot” – you are confused!

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 170

    Have you forgotten the ‘title of this thread?

    “Anti-Tebow bigotry?” by Dr. Gene Veith

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 170

    Have you forgotten the ‘title of this thread?

    “Anti-Tebow bigotry?” by Dr. Gene Veith

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    How about this, Grace. Define for us what the Gospel is. It’s a simple request. Can you do it?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    How about this, Grace. Define for us what the Gospel is. It’s a simple request. Can you do it?

  • Grace

    tODD

    YOU WROTE: “How about this, Grace. Define for us what the Gospel is. It’s a simple request. Can you do it?”

    tODD, you’ve followed me around most all the threads I post on this blog – nit-picking constantly. I have no intention of interacting with you, until it stops. It does nothing to enhance the conversation, nor does it bring forth good fruit.

  • Grace

    tODD

    YOU WROTE: “How about this, Grace. Define for us what the Gospel is. It’s a simple request. Can you do it?”

    tODD, you’ve followed me around most all the threads I post on this blog – nit-picking constantly. I have no intention of interacting with you, until it stops. It does nothing to enhance the conversation, nor does it bring forth good fruit.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “tODD, you’ve followed me around most all the threads I post on this blog – nit-picking constantly.”

    Grace, tODD follows you around on most threads on Cranach? Eeeesh. Sounds like stalking behavior.

    Do you have evidence of tODD doing this? If so, you should alert Dr. Gene Veith that tODD is doing this and show him the evidence. Such stalking behavior degrades this blog and it also degrades comment threads.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “tODD, you’ve followed me around most all the threads I post on this blog – nit-picking constantly.”

    Grace, tODD follows you around on most threads on Cranach? Eeeesh. Sounds like stalking behavior.

    Do you have evidence of tODD doing this? If so, you should alert Dr. Gene Veith that tODD is doing this and show him the evidence. Such stalking behavior degrades this blog and it also degrades comment threads.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Well, I wish I could say I wish that weren’t predictable, Grace (@175). I asked you a simple, substantive question — one that gets to the heart of the issues being raised here about Tebow’s actions on the field — and you completely failed to answer it.

    In fact, contrary to your stated intentions, you have engaged infinitely more with my “nit-picking” than you did with this actual question. You have, somehow, convinced yourself that a discussion of what the Gospel will not “bring forth good fruit”.

    In short, you either don’t know what the Gospel is, or you have no intention of having a real discussion here, preferring instead to whip up some spurious complaint whenever actual questions are directed your way.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Well, I wish I could say I wish that weren’t predictable, Grace (@175). I asked you a simple, substantive question — one that gets to the heart of the issues being raised here about Tebow’s actions on the field — and you completely failed to answer it.

    In fact, contrary to your stated intentions, you have engaged infinitely more with my “nit-picking” than you did with this actual question. You have, somehow, convinced yourself that a discussion of what the Gospel will not “bring forth good fruit”.

    In short, you either don’t know what the Gospel is, or you have no intention of having a real discussion here, preferring instead to whip up some spurious complaint whenever actual questions are directed your way.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus:

    Perhaps I am perceiving subtlety where none exists, but I think TU&D’s point is that, even though you and tODD deplore the “culture war”, TU&D believes that Dr. Veith does not.

    Basically, TU&D is claiming that Dr. Veith is in his camp, not yours. Since we all respect Dr. Veith, or we wouldn’t be here, TU&D believes this strengthens his position.

    I won’t presume to speak for Dr. Veith, but he and I are of roughly the same generation (both baby boomers), and speaking for myself, my emotions toward the culture war are more mixed than yours and tODD’s. I agree with you position that the “culture war” can eclipse the Gospel. I fully share your annoyance with web pages devoted to , TEBOW: THE MAN, THE MESSAGE, THE MINISTRY!!! as being pure fodder for works righteousness. But there is another side to this.

    The decline of Christianity (and therefore, the Gospel) as a major influence in western culture has been a centuries long prcess, but until after WWII, all western cultures were at least nominally Christian. In the 1960′s all that changed. As a child and teenager, I saw our culture go from one in which preaching the Gospel was expected and encouraged by all our institutions, to a culture that has largely repudiated the Gospel and does not want to hear it. Average people used to accept the Gospel as true, even if they didn’t think about it very much.

    In the 60′s, the intelligensia (sp.?), who had been rejecting the Gospel en masse for decades, came out of the closet and deplored it. The result was that many average people who otherwise would have embraced the Gospel, followed their cultural leaders into unbelief. This was shocking to observe. People of my parents’ generation thought the world was ending.

    In Europe, there was little opposition to this. And today, Europe is a mostly atheistic place. But, in the United States, there was some resistance. The Gospel was preached in the face of all the secular humanism and average people were at least able to observe the opposing forces facing each other. The result has been that the Church is a much more viable force in the United States than it is in Europe.

    The somewhat convicting thing about all this, though, is that it was the American “evangelicals” who saw the danger first and reacted the most effectively. Face it. Anglicanism in the United States is in a mess. All mainline “liberal” protestant denominations have largely abandonned God’s Word in favor of post-modernist nonsense, at that includes a substantial group of Lutherans. Mainline liberal protestantism, along with Vatican II Catholicism, tried to join and follow the spirit of this post-modern age, instead of resisting it. Christians among them who wanted to preach the Gospel were unprepared for the changes their denominations were undertaking.

    The ones who quicky and forcefully stood up for God’s Word as a source of authority in those days were the predecessors of today’s evangelicals. They asserted that the Bible was true (even if they were wrong about what it says). In so doing, they converted many apparent unbelievers. Also, they poached a lot of weak mainliners. But this was because a whole lot of Lutheran kids, having been confirmed at age 13, put their catechisms on the shelf and started reading Timothy Leary, looking at Playboy Magazine, and listening to John Lennon, and otherwise attending to a million other cultural influences that either ignored or repudiated the Gospel.

    As much as I know what is wrong with evangelical theology, it is hard for me to be all that hard on the “culture warriors”. Because, without them, this continent would be just like Europe. I recognise that there are today Lutheran and Anglican voices that proclaim the Gospel effectively and in a purer form that our evangelical colleagues do. I also understand that the errors of the evangelicals need to be spoken against, as with all errors. But the irony of it is that one of the main reasons we are having this discussion is because the “culture warriors” fought for the Gospel when your denomination, and mine, were asleep on the rampart wall. If they had not done so, American Lutheranism might well be just like the State Church of Denmark.

    So, even though I know where they are wrong, I have to give our “culture warrior” friends a little credit where it is due.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus:

    Perhaps I am perceiving subtlety where none exists, but I think TU&D’s point is that, even though you and tODD deplore the “culture war”, TU&D believes that Dr. Veith does not.

    Basically, TU&D is claiming that Dr. Veith is in his camp, not yours. Since we all respect Dr. Veith, or we wouldn’t be here, TU&D believes this strengthens his position.

    I won’t presume to speak for Dr. Veith, but he and I are of roughly the same generation (both baby boomers), and speaking for myself, my emotions toward the culture war are more mixed than yours and tODD’s. I agree with you position that the “culture war” can eclipse the Gospel. I fully share your annoyance with web pages devoted to , TEBOW: THE MAN, THE MESSAGE, THE MINISTRY!!! as being pure fodder for works righteousness. But there is another side to this.

    The decline of Christianity (and therefore, the Gospel) as a major influence in western culture has been a centuries long prcess, but until after WWII, all western cultures were at least nominally Christian. In the 1960′s all that changed. As a child and teenager, I saw our culture go from one in which preaching the Gospel was expected and encouraged by all our institutions, to a culture that has largely repudiated the Gospel and does not want to hear it. Average people used to accept the Gospel as true, even if they didn’t think about it very much.

    In the 60′s, the intelligensia (sp.?), who had been rejecting the Gospel en masse for decades, came out of the closet and deplored it. The result was that many average people who otherwise would have embraced the Gospel, followed their cultural leaders into unbelief. This was shocking to observe. People of my parents’ generation thought the world was ending.

    In Europe, there was little opposition to this. And today, Europe is a mostly atheistic place. But, in the United States, there was some resistance. The Gospel was preached in the face of all the secular humanism and average people were at least able to observe the opposing forces facing each other. The result has been that the Church is a much more viable force in the United States than it is in Europe.

    The somewhat convicting thing about all this, though, is that it was the American “evangelicals” who saw the danger first and reacted the most effectively. Face it. Anglicanism in the United States is in a mess. All mainline “liberal” protestant denominations have largely abandonned God’s Word in favor of post-modernist nonsense, at that includes a substantial group of Lutherans. Mainline liberal protestantism, along with Vatican II Catholicism, tried to join and follow the spirit of this post-modern age, instead of resisting it. Christians among them who wanted to preach the Gospel were unprepared for the changes their denominations were undertaking.

    The ones who quicky and forcefully stood up for God’s Word as a source of authority in those days were the predecessors of today’s evangelicals. They asserted that the Bible was true (even if they were wrong about what it says). In so doing, they converted many apparent unbelievers. Also, they poached a lot of weak mainliners. But this was because a whole lot of Lutheran kids, having been confirmed at age 13, put their catechisms on the shelf and started reading Timothy Leary, looking at Playboy Magazine, and listening to John Lennon, and otherwise attending to a million other cultural influences that either ignored or repudiated the Gospel.

    As much as I know what is wrong with evangelical theology, it is hard for me to be all that hard on the “culture warriors”. Because, without them, this continent would be just like Europe. I recognise that there are today Lutheran and Anglican voices that proclaim the Gospel effectively and in a purer form that our evangelical colleagues do. I also understand that the errors of the evangelicals need to be spoken against, as with all errors. But the irony of it is that one of the main reasons we are having this discussion is because the “culture warriors” fought for the Gospel when your denomination, and mine, were asleep on the rampart wall. If they had not done so, American Lutheranism might well be just like the State Church of Denmark.

    So, even though I know where they are wrong, I have to give our “culture warrior” friends a little credit where it is due.

  • Richard

    Kerner,
    Good thought. I wonder if there is a difference in other categories, though. Presbyterian historian D.G. Hart notes differences between those of Protestant confessionals and evangelicals. In one of his books, he speaks of two types of Christian devotion, that of “crusader” and that of “pilgrim.” “Pietist Protestantism is inherently activist” (crusader), while confessional Protestantism depends on “boring” things like learning dependance on grace. This difference just got played out on this blog.

  • Richard

    Kerner,
    Good thought. I wonder if there is a difference in other categories, though. Presbyterian historian D.G. Hart notes differences between those of Protestant confessionals and evangelicals. In one of his books, he speaks of two types of Christian devotion, that of “crusader” and that of “pilgrim.” “Pietist Protestantism is inherently activist” (crusader), while confessional Protestantism depends on “boring” things like learning dependance on grace. This difference just got played out on this blog.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 178

    You stated:
    “Basically, TU&D is claiming that Dr. Veith is in his camp, not yours. Since we all respect Dr. Veith, or we wouldn’t be here, TU&D believes this strengthens his position.

    I don’t believe it strengthens Truth Unites… and Divides position, but rather states a fact, as we see below:

    Dr. Veith wrote above:
    “Yes, we are to beware those who practice their piety before men, but Tebow certainly isn’t doing it to make himself look good–as might happen in another age–since it is only attracting scorn and contempt. Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    What Dr. Veith stated above is exactly what I believe. Shouldn’t Believers be more OPEN about their FAITH than what they are? All too many Believers would never be thought of as strong Believers in Jesus Christ, in fact, perhaps a great many would be surprised if they knew what ‘some Christian Believers believed about Christ Jesus, the Cross, Salvation, Faith.

    This is the question we should all ask ourselves – Do others know that I love the LORD, that I believe Jesus died for my sins on the Cross, that Salvation is their’s if they but believe on him.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 178

    You stated:
    “Basically, TU&D is claiming that Dr. Veith is in his camp, not yours. Since we all respect Dr. Veith, or we wouldn’t be here, TU&D believes this strengthens his position.

    I don’t believe it strengthens Truth Unites… and Divides position, but rather states a fact, as we see below:

    Dr. Veith wrote above:
    “Yes, we are to beware those who practice their piety before men, but Tebow certainly isn’t doing it to make himself look good–as might happen in another age–since it is only attracting scorn and contempt. Shouldn’t we support him and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?

    What Dr. Veith stated above is exactly what I believe. Shouldn’t Believers be more OPEN about their FAITH than what they are? All too many Believers would never be thought of as strong Believers in Jesus Christ, in fact, perhaps a great many would be surprised if they knew what ‘some Christian Believers believed about Christ Jesus, the Cross, Salvation, Faith.

    This is the question we should all ask ourselves – Do others know that I love the LORD, that I believe Jesus died for my sins on the Cross, that Salvation is their’s if they but believe on him.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Veith: “And further confounding his critics is that, despite what would seem to be poor football technique and bad passing, he keeps leading his team to one miraculous come-from-behind last minute victory after another!”

    This critic, a senior sportswriter at Sports Illustrated, now ranks Tim Tebow as the 5th best starting quarterback in the NFL among the 32 starting quarterbacks in the league today!

    Ranking the NFL quarterbacks from Rodgers to Tebow to Palko

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Dr. Veith: “And further confounding his critics is that, despite what would seem to be poor football technique and bad passing, he keeps leading his team to one miraculous come-from-behind last minute victory after another!”

    This critic, a senior sportswriter at Sports Illustrated, now ranks Tim Tebow as the 5th best starting quarterback in the NFL among the 32 starting quarterbacks in the league today!

    Ranking the NFL quarterbacks from Rodgers to Tebow to Palko

  • Richard

    I guess Kurt Warner is a Tebow “hater” as well:
    Based on their style of play alone, Kurt Warner and Tim Tebow are miles apart.

    Warner was the pocket passer with the big arm who ran the “Greatest Show on Turf” and averaged 33 pass attempts in 116 career starts. Tebow is the tight end playing quarterback, running the option and completing only 45.5 percent of his 20 pass attempts per game.

    But when it comes to personality and individual values, Warner and Tebow are two peas in a pod.

    Which is why Warner’s recent comments about Tebow’s outward religious expression are particularly interesting.

    In an interview with the Arizona Republic, Warner — a devout Christian himself — suggested Tebow should tone things down a bit.

    “You can’t help but cheer for a guy like that,” former NFL star Kurt Warner said. “But I’d tell him, ‘Put down the boldness in regards to the words, and keep living the way you’re living. Let your teammates do the talking for you. Let them cheer on your testimony.’

    “I know what he’s going through, and I know what he wants to accomplish, but I don’t want anybody to become calloused toward Tim because they don’t understand him, or are not fully aware of who he is. And you’re starting to see that a little bit.”

    As Republic columnist Dan Bickley points out, Warner “has already lived this story. He’s had coaches who felt religion was cutting into football time, telling Warner he spent too much time with the Bible. He saw how some fans were offended by the frequent shout-outs to Jesus, that Warner somehow was suggesting that God was a football fan, caring more about an NFL quarterback than, say, “a tsunami victim.”

    You see it nearly every Sunday — and during the week throughout the world of sports. The first words out of an athlete’s mouth following a victory are frequently, “I just want to thank God for….”

    Ray Lewis post-game interviews sometimes sound more like sermons than sports commentary. Players from two opposing teams often gather at midfield for a post-game prayer. And now, every Sunday, cameras follow Tebow every time he “Tebows”.

    But Warner’s advice to Tebow is to limit that outward expression of religion on the field to avoid alienating coaches, players and fans and instead the right time to share his message.

    “There’s almost a faith cliche, where (athletes) come out and say, ‘I want to thank my Lord and savior,’ Warner told the Republic. “As soon as you say that, the guard goes up, the walls go up, and I came to realize you have to be more strategic.

    “The greatest impact you can have on people is never what you say, but how you live…. You set the standard with your actions. The words can come after.”

  • Richard

    I guess Kurt Warner is a Tebow “hater” as well:
    Based on their style of play alone, Kurt Warner and Tim Tebow are miles apart.

    Warner was the pocket passer with the big arm who ran the “Greatest Show on Turf” and averaged 33 pass attempts in 116 career starts. Tebow is the tight end playing quarterback, running the option and completing only 45.5 percent of his 20 pass attempts per game.

    But when it comes to personality and individual values, Warner and Tebow are two peas in a pod.

    Which is why Warner’s recent comments about Tebow’s outward religious expression are particularly interesting.

    In an interview with the Arizona Republic, Warner — a devout Christian himself — suggested Tebow should tone things down a bit.

    “You can’t help but cheer for a guy like that,” former NFL star Kurt Warner said. “But I’d tell him, ‘Put down the boldness in regards to the words, and keep living the way you’re living. Let your teammates do the talking for you. Let them cheer on your testimony.’

    “I know what he’s going through, and I know what he wants to accomplish, but I don’t want anybody to become calloused toward Tim because they don’t understand him, or are not fully aware of who he is. And you’re starting to see that a little bit.”

    As Republic columnist Dan Bickley points out, Warner “has already lived this story. He’s had coaches who felt religion was cutting into football time, telling Warner he spent too much time with the Bible. He saw how some fans were offended by the frequent shout-outs to Jesus, that Warner somehow was suggesting that God was a football fan, caring more about an NFL quarterback than, say, “a tsunami victim.”

    You see it nearly every Sunday — and during the week throughout the world of sports. The first words out of an athlete’s mouth following a victory are frequently, “I just want to thank God for….”

    Ray Lewis post-game interviews sometimes sound more like sermons than sports commentary. Players from two opposing teams often gather at midfield for a post-game prayer. And now, every Sunday, cameras follow Tebow every time he “Tebows”.

    But Warner’s advice to Tebow is to limit that outward expression of religion on the field to avoid alienating coaches, players and fans and instead the right time to share his message.

    “There’s almost a faith cliche, where (athletes) come out and say, ‘I want to thank my Lord and savior,’ Warner told the Republic. “As soon as you say that, the guard goes up, the walls go up, and I came to realize you have to be more strategic.

    “The greatest impact you can have on people is never what you say, but how you live…. You set the standard with your actions. The words can come after.”

  • Grace

    TEBOW does it again, thanks his LORD and Savior Jesus Christ

  • Grace

    TEBOW does it again, thanks his LORD and Savior Jesus Christ

  • Grace
  • Grace
  • Grace

    Richard @ 182

    YOU WROTE:

    “But Warner’s advice to Tebow is to limit that outward expression of religion on the field to avoid alienating coaches, players and fans and instead the right time to share his message.”

    “Right time to share his message”? For some, it may be the ONY time they hear any kind of message about the Savior!

    Richard posted:

    ““There’s almost a faith cliche, where (athletes) come out and say, ‘I want to thank my Lord and savior,’ Warner told the Republic. “As soon as you say that, the guard goes up, the walls go up, and I came to realize you have to be more strategic.”

    Giving thanks to God is not a “strategic” maneuver, it’s prayer to the LORD. ‘Strategy has nothing to do with it.

    Tebow would do well to listen to whatever the LORD would have him do – Warner doesn’t guide Tebow’s life, or his prayer life!

  • Grace

    Richard @ 182

    YOU WROTE:

    “But Warner’s advice to Tebow is to limit that outward expression of religion on the field to avoid alienating coaches, players and fans and instead the right time to share his message.”

    “Right time to share his message”? For some, it may be the ONY time they hear any kind of message about the Savior!

    Richard posted:

    ““There’s almost a faith cliche, where (athletes) come out and say, ‘I want to thank my Lord and savior,’ Warner told the Republic. “As soon as you say that, the guard goes up, the walls go up, and I came to realize you have to be more strategic.”

    Giving thanks to God is not a “strategic” maneuver, it’s prayer to the LORD. ‘Strategy has nothing to do with it.

    Tebow would do well to listen to whatever the LORD would have him do – Warner doesn’t guide Tebow’s life, or his prayer life!

  • Richard
  • Richard
  • Grace

    Richard,

    A whole lot of SOUR GRAPES out there. Tebow’s career must drive all the wannabes and has-beens right off their recliners! :lol: Kurt Warner included BOO HOO!

  • Grace

    Richard,

    A whole lot of SOUR GRAPES out there. Tebow’s career must drive all the wannabes and has-beens right off their recliners! :lol: Kurt Warner included BOO HOO!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Again, note how Grace (@187) can’t actually process criticism, except to assume that critics of any meaningless gesture she holds dear must necessarily, somehow, be jealous of whatever it is that she perceives in such a gesture.

    And, just to preempt Grace, “BOO HOO, POOR YOU, etc.”

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Again, note how Grace (@187) can’t actually process criticism, except to assume that critics of any meaningless gesture she holds dear must necessarily, somehow, be jealous of whatever it is that she perceives in such a gesture.

    And, just to preempt Grace, “BOO HOO, POOR YOU, etc.”

  • Richard

    She lives in a Manichean world, doesn’t she? Ah, well, I have to get back to my Ron Paul campaign material.

  • Richard

    She lives in a Manichean world, doesn’t she? Ah, well, I have to get back to my Ron Paul campaign material.

  • Grace

    Richard @ 189

    Before using a word, learn what its definition is.

    “Manichean” no more fits my beliefs than believing in ‘fairy tales!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Manichaeism

    1. (Non-Christian Religions / Other Non-Christian Religions) the system of religious doctrines, including elements of Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc., taught by the Persian prophet Mani (?216-?276 ad), based on a supposed primordial conflict between light and darkness or goodness and evil

    2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) Chiefly RC Church any similar heretical philosophy involving a radical dualism.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Grace

    Richard @ 189

    Before using a word, learn what its definition is.

    “Manichean” no more fits my beliefs than believing in ‘fairy tales!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Manichaeism

    1. (Non-Christian Religions / Other Non-Christian Religions) the system of religious doctrines, including elements of Gnosticism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc., taught by the Persian prophet Mani (?216-?276 ad), based on a supposed primordial conflict between light and darkness or goodness and evil

    2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) Chiefly RC Church any similar heretical philosophy involving a radical dualism.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, Grace (@190), before you paste in a definition for a word you just looked up, learn how a dictionary works.

    Specifically, note that there was, in fact, a second definition in what you pasted for us. And it does, in fact, bear a resemblance to the philosophy you’re acting out for us here. Notably the “radical dualism” part — that is, the way in which you appear to have divided the world’s population into people worthy of defending to the death, no matter how banal their actions (e.g. Tebow), and the rest of the people (e.g. Luther), who get no credit from you no matter how much they preach God’s Truth.

    I’m glad you now know what “Manichean” means now (okay, only one definition, and you seem to be sticking to a rigidly literal understanding, but it’s a start), but, really, you’re in no position to be lecturing people on learning the definitions of words.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, Grace (@190), before you paste in a definition for a word you just looked up, learn how a dictionary works.

    Specifically, note that there was, in fact, a second definition in what you pasted for us. And it does, in fact, bear a resemblance to the philosophy you’re acting out for us here. Notably the “radical dualism” part — that is, the way in which you appear to have divided the world’s population into people worthy of defending to the death, no matter how banal their actions (e.g. Tebow), and the rest of the people (e.g. Luther), who get no credit from you no matter how much they preach God’s Truth.

    I’m glad you now know what “Manichean” means now (okay, only one definition, and you seem to be sticking to a rigidly literal understanding, but it’s a start), but, really, you’re in no position to be lecturing people on learning the definitions of words.

  • Grace

    The word “Manichaeism” isn’t difficult, that is, unless you don’t understand it – then use it, and all your pals who have little understanding, chime in with their approval … however misguided, and SLANTED. :lol:

    It reminds me of all those who tried out for the ‘debate team, but because they didn’t have what it takes, with all the errors, etc – their pals, did what they could, in an attempt to shore up their ego’s – most always made it worse!

  • Grace

    The word “Manichaeism” isn’t difficult, that is, unless you don’t understand it – then use it, and all your pals who have little understanding, chime in with their approval … however misguided, and SLANTED. :lol:

    It reminds me of all those who tried out for the ‘debate team, but because they didn’t have what it takes, with all the errors, etc – their pals, did what they could, in an attempt to shore up their ego’s – most always made it worse!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@192), your comments about the “‘debate team” reek of jealousy and resentment. Envy is a dangerous thing, Grace. It destroys people’s lives, so that they find no joy in others, instead finding fault … and excuses to voice their displeasure.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@192), your comments about the “‘debate team” reek of jealousy and resentment. Envy is a dangerous thing, Grace. It destroys people’s lives, so that they find no joy in others, instead finding fault … and excuses to voice their displeasure.

  • Grace

    I was one of the ‘debaters – no envy involved!

  • Grace

    I was one of the ‘debaters – no envy involved!

  • Matt

    As someone who is really impressed with Tebow’s leadership and generally find the guy likeable and a much better advocate for Christianity than some on here give him credit for, there is no way he can continue this streak of luck. His streak of come from behind victories, all by the skin of his teeth, is really remarkable. And I’m sure their is some small component of Denver’s success that is derived from his leadership. But I just have no confidence that a quarterback that’s a below average passer and who puts up as few points as Tebow – Denver didn’t score until under 3 minutes were on the clock against Chicago – can continue to win like he has been. Statistical averages will catch up with Tebow and the Broncos.

    But to play devil’s (God’s?) advocate, it does seem like an incredible coincidence that the most compelling, most polarizing, most unorthodox, and most praised as a leader quarterback can string together the level of success Tebow has in close games. So I do have to grant the possibility that their is more than meets the eye with Tebow’s late game success.

  • Matt

    As someone who is really impressed with Tebow’s leadership and generally find the guy likeable and a much better advocate for Christianity than some on here give him credit for, there is no way he can continue this streak of luck. His streak of come from behind victories, all by the skin of his teeth, is really remarkable. And I’m sure their is some small component of Denver’s success that is derived from his leadership. But I just have no confidence that a quarterback that’s a below average passer and who puts up as few points as Tebow – Denver didn’t score until under 3 minutes were on the clock against Chicago – can continue to win like he has been. Statistical averages will catch up with Tebow and the Broncos.

    But to play devil’s (God’s?) advocate, it does seem like an incredible coincidence that the most compelling, most polarizing, most unorthodox, and most praised as a leader quarterback can string together the level of success Tebow has in close games. So I do have to grant the possibility that their is more than meets the eye with Tebow’s late game success.

  • Richard

    2. (adj) dualistic, Manichaean
    of or relating to the philosophical doctrine of dualism
    “a Manichaean conflict between good and evil”

    It’s a simple enough definition, even for those of us with “little understanding.”

  • Richard

    2. (adj) dualistic, Manichaean
    of or relating to the philosophical doctrine of dualism
    “a Manichaean conflict between good and evil”

    It’s a simple enough definition, even for those of us with “little understanding.”

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Bob Costas, Sports Announcer: “The combination of Denver’s continuing late heroics, and today, the Bears’ otherwise unexplainable errors, is enough to have some at least suspect divine intervention. Except that Tebow, whose sincere faith cannot be questioned, and should be respected, also has the good sense, and good grace, to make it clear he does not believe God takes a hand in the outcome of games.

    Most of us are good with that. Otherwise, how to explain what happens when there are equal numbers of believers on either side? Or why so many of those same believers came up empty facing Sandy Koufax? Or hit the deck against Muhammad Ali? Or why the Almighty wouldn’t have better things to do?”

    Theology Professor Owen Strachan, excerpted answer:

    “God oversees and ordains all that comes to pass. This includes, as surprising as it may initially seem, football games. The outcome of every football game ever been played was planned by the all-wise, all-seeing mind of God. But this is not saying what some might think. God has also planned every haircut you’ve ever had, and every shopping trip you’ve ever taken. He is lord of football, and he is lord of produce. Nothing happens outside of his sovereign direction.

    We err, though, if we equate his general superintendence of this world—the falling of sparrows, the numbering of hairs—with the special working of his kingdom. This is what Costas seems to be protesting, and in a much fuller sense than he understands. God has a special interest in promoting his gospel and building his church (John 3:16; Rom. 10; Eph. 1). This is not to say that he is uninterested in the ordinary things of the world, but rather to note that the mission of salvation begun after Adam’s fall holds preeminence for God and, by extension, for his followers.

    We must also say that for Tebow, the way he plays football is necessarily a matter of God’s glory. In the same way that God gains glory through the work of a faithful accountant, a sacrificial, sleep-deprived mother, and a repentant cellist, God gains glory through righteous athletes who work hard in his name and seek to be a light in dark places. God directs the life and exploits of Tim Tebow, football hero. But he also directs Owen Strachan, Boyce College professor, or my friend Colin LeCroy, a Dallas lawyer, or my friend Emily Duffus, an Atlanta schoolteacher. Tebow may reach more people in his work, but we are all working for the glory of God, who directs and blesses our work so as to magnify his name.

    And I know, lastly, that the most important story here is not that Tebow and the Broncos are winning in dramatic fashion, but that the Lord seems to have worked in this man such that, though faced with unbelievable fame, major wealth, constant attention, and the classically all-American success story, Tebow seems only to want to talk about the gospel.

    That, my friends, is the real miracle, and the work in which all of us—whether church planter, pipe-fitter, or homemaker—may participate.

    Read it all: HERE

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Bob Costas, Sports Announcer: “The combination of Denver’s continuing late heroics, and today, the Bears’ otherwise unexplainable errors, is enough to have some at least suspect divine intervention. Except that Tebow, whose sincere faith cannot be questioned, and should be respected, also has the good sense, and good grace, to make it clear he does not believe God takes a hand in the outcome of games.

    Most of us are good with that. Otherwise, how to explain what happens when there are equal numbers of believers on either side? Or why so many of those same believers came up empty facing Sandy Koufax? Or hit the deck against Muhammad Ali? Or why the Almighty wouldn’t have better things to do?”

    Theology Professor Owen Strachan, excerpted answer:

    “God oversees and ordains all that comes to pass. This includes, as surprising as it may initially seem, football games. The outcome of every football game ever been played was planned by the all-wise, all-seeing mind of God. But this is not saying what some might think. God has also planned every haircut you’ve ever had, and every shopping trip you’ve ever taken. He is lord of football, and he is lord of produce. Nothing happens outside of his sovereign direction.

    We err, though, if we equate his general superintendence of this world—the falling of sparrows, the numbering of hairs—with the special working of his kingdom. This is what Costas seems to be protesting, and in a much fuller sense than he understands. God has a special interest in promoting his gospel and building his church (John 3:16; Rom. 10; Eph. 1). This is not to say that he is uninterested in the ordinary things of the world, but rather to note that the mission of salvation begun after Adam’s fall holds preeminence for God and, by extension, for his followers.

    We must also say that for Tebow, the way he plays football is necessarily a matter of God’s glory. In the same way that God gains glory through the work of a faithful accountant, a sacrificial, sleep-deprived mother, and a repentant cellist, God gains glory through righteous athletes who work hard in his name and seek to be a light in dark places. God directs the life and exploits of Tim Tebow, football hero. But he also directs Owen Strachan, Boyce College professor, or my friend Colin LeCroy, a Dallas lawyer, or my friend Emily Duffus, an Atlanta schoolteacher. Tebow may reach more people in his work, but we are all working for the glory of God, who directs and blesses our work so as to magnify his name.

    And I know, lastly, that the most important story here is not that Tebow and the Broncos are winning in dramatic fashion, but that the Lord seems to have worked in this man such that, though faced with unbelievable fame, major wealth, constant attention, and the classically all-American success story, Tebow seems only to want to talk about the gospel.

    That, my friends, is the real miracle, and the work in which all of us—whether church planter, pipe-fitter, or homemaker—may participate.

    Read it all: HERE

  • kerner

    Bravo TU&D! Dr. Veith (Culture Warrior?) has written an entire book on this subject. An exerpt:

    The Doctrine of Vocation
    When we pray the Lord’s Prayer, observed Luther, we ask God to give us this day our daily bread. And He does give us our daily bread. He does it by means of the farmer who planted and harvested the grain, the baker who made the flour into bread, the person who prepared our meal. We might today add the truck drivers who hauled the produce, the factory workers in the food processing plant, the warehouse men, the wholesale distributors, the stock boys, the lady at the checkout counter. Also playing their part are the bankers, futures investors, advertisers, lawyers, agricultural scientists, mechanical engineers, and every other player in the nation’s economic system. All of these were instrumental in enabling you to eat your morning bread.

    Before you ate, you probably gave thanks to God for your food, as is fitting. He is caring for your physical needs, as with every other kind of need you have, preserving your life through His gifts. “He provides food for those who fear him” (Psalm 111:5); also to those who do not fear Him, “to all flesh” (136:25). And He does so by using other human beings. It is still God who is responsible for giving us our daily bread. Though He could give it to us directly, by a miraculous provision, as He once did for the children of Israel when He fed them daily with manna, God has chosen to work through human beings, who, in their different capacities and according to their different talents, serve each other. This is the doctrine of vocation.

    - From God at Work: Your Christian Vocation in All of Life, by Dr. Gene Edward Veith.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Therefore I advise no one to enter any religious order or the priesthood, indeed, I advise everyone against it – unless he is forearmed with this knowledge and understands that the works of monks and priests, however holy and arduous they may be, do not differ one whit in the sight of God from the works of the rustic laborer in the field or the woman going about her household tasks, but that all works are measured before God by faith alone.

    - Martin Luther, The Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520)

    This is why I am not being hard on Tim Tebow. On some level he seems to get this.

  • kerner

    Bravo TU&D! Dr. Veith (Culture Warrior?) has written an entire book on this subject. An exerpt:

    The Doctrine of Vocation
    When we pray the Lord’s Prayer, observed Luther, we ask God to give us this day our daily bread. And He does give us our daily bread. He does it by means of the farmer who planted and harvested the grain, the baker who made the flour into bread, the person who prepared our meal. We might today add the truck drivers who hauled the produce, the factory workers in the food processing plant, the warehouse men, the wholesale distributors, the stock boys, the lady at the checkout counter. Also playing their part are the bankers, futures investors, advertisers, lawyers, agricultural scientists, mechanical engineers, and every other player in the nation’s economic system. All of these were instrumental in enabling you to eat your morning bread.

    Before you ate, you probably gave thanks to God for your food, as is fitting. He is caring for your physical needs, as with every other kind of need you have, preserving your life through His gifts. “He provides food for those who fear him” (Psalm 111:5); also to those who do not fear Him, “to all flesh” (136:25). And He does so by using other human beings. It is still God who is responsible for giving us our daily bread. Though He could give it to us directly, by a miraculous provision, as He once did for the children of Israel when He fed them daily with manna, God has chosen to work through human beings, who, in their different capacities and according to their different talents, serve each other. This is the doctrine of vocation.

    - From God at Work: Your Christian Vocation in All of Life, by Dr. Gene Edward Veith.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Therefore I advise no one to enter any religious order or the priesthood, indeed, I advise everyone against it – unless he is forearmed with this knowledge and understands that the works of monks and priests, however holy and arduous they may be, do not differ one whit in the sight of God from the works of the rustic laborer in the field or the woman going about her household tasks, but that all works are measured before God by faith alone.

    - Martin Luther, The Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520)

    This is why I am not being hard on Tim Tebow. On some level he seems to get this.

  • Jason

    YES. We as Christians need to stand up. Now I’m not saying to go to Wal-Mart and scream in the store that you are a believer in Christ, but I believe that we need more Christians like Tim who are NOT ASHAMED to speak of their faith in Christ. Too many Christians are just PLAYING church and not truly in love with God. I will take a stand for JESUS and STAY UNASHAMED!!!!! Jesus is coming back for his church WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH. Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!

  • Jason

    YES. We as Christians need to stand up. Now I’m not saying to go to Wal-Mart and scream in the store that you are a believer in Christ, but I believe that we need more Christians like Tim who are NOT ASHAMED to speak of their faith in Christ. Too many Christians are just PLAYING church and not truly in love with God. I will take a stand for JESUS and STAY UNASHAMED!!!!! Jesus is coming back for his church WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH. Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!

  • Grace

    Jason @ 199

    “Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!”

    Thank you for a great post – you are ‘spot on!

  • Grace

    Jason @ 199

    “Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!”

    Thank you for a great post – you are ‘spot on!

  • Cincinnatus

    So, in order to “STAND for CHRIST” properly, I need to kneel publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens (but presumably not when something bad happens) and, whenever someone asks me a generic question about my occupation or anything else, I need to spout some platitudes about Jesus. Got it.

    Again, how is any of this the Gospel?

  • Cincinnatus

    So, in order to “STAND for CHRIST” properly, I need to kneel publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens (but presumably not when something bad happens) and, whenever someone asks me a generic question about my occupation or anything else, I need to spout some platitudes about Jesus. Got it.

    Again, how is any of this the Gospel?

  • Richard

    Cincinnatus is right. And I’m also not understanding how kneeling publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens fulfills my vocation as an employee of my office. I think some of us are not getting what vocation is about.

  • Richard

    Cincinnatus is right. And I’m also not understanding how kneeling publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens fulfills my vocation as an employee of my office. I think some of us are not getting what vocation is about.

  • Grace

    Richard,

    If Tebow’s testimony bothers you, don’t watch him play, ignore the games – Who are you to admonish the guy for kneeling on a football field?

  • Grace

    Richard,

    If Tebow’s testimony bothers you, don’t watch him play, ignore the games – Who are you to admonish the guy for kneeling on a football field?

  • Richard

    Grace,

    Actually, I don’t watch him–I’m in church on the Lord’s Day. Interestingly, this also raises an issue about the Sabbath, which is still part of the moral law, remember Eric Liddell?
    We seem to have problems with definitions, here. I’m not “admonishing” anyone, Grace. I’m raising questions–such as our responsibilities in fulfilling our vocations. Why are you afraid or hostile to people who raise questions or issues, Grace?

  • Richard

    Grace,

    Actually, I don’t watch him–I’m in church on the Lord’s Day. Interestingly, this also raises an issue about the Sabbath, which is still part of the moral law, remember Eric Liddell?
    We seem to have problems with definitions, here. I’m not “admonishing” anyone, Grace. I’m raising questions–such as our responsibilities in fulfilling our vocations. Why are you afraid or hostile to people who raise questions or issues, Grace?

  • Grace

    Richard @ 204

    YOU WROTE: “Actually, I don’t watch him–I’m in church on the Lord’s Day.”

    The game between the Broncos and Bears was on Sunday afternoon, 1:00 PM West coast time to 4:40 in the afternoon, it was not during church.

  • Grace

    Richard @ 204

    YOU WROTE: “Actually, I don’t watch him–I’m in church on the Lord’s Day.”

    The game between the Broncos and Bears was on Sunday afternoon, 1:00 PM West coast time to 4:40 in the afternoon, it was not during church.

  • Richard

    Grace,
    I’m aware of the times, my dear. Some of us shockingly have TWO services on the Lord’s Day. I’m also a church officer (elder) in my denomination who subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which includes statements on Sabbath observance.

  • Richard

    Grace,
    I’m aware of the times, my dear. Some of us shockingly have TWO services on the Lord’s Day. I’m also a church officer (elder) in my denomination who subscribes to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which includes statements on Sabbath observance.

  • Grace

    Richard

    Most churches I have attended have several services in the morning and one in the evening. I see nothing “shoockingly” regarding the number of services, be it two or four.

    There are those who have statements on Sabbath observance, which include cooking, games, and many other observances, that are mentioned in the Old Testament, directed to the Jewish people.

    Which ones do you keep?

  • Grace

    Richard

    Most churches I have attended have several services in the morning and one in the evening. I see nothing “shoockingly” regarding the number of services, be it two or four.

    There are those who have statements on Sabbath observance, which include cooking, games, and many other observances, that are mentioned in the Old Testament, directed to the Jewish people.

    Which ones do you keep?

  • Cincinnatus

    Really, Grace? Really? In order to defend Tebow from “bigotry,” you’re going to attack the sincere practices of a sabbatarian Christian? Would that we all, like Richard, took the Scriptures more seriously than we do cultural icons.

    For the record, while I’m not a strict sabbatarian in the Westminster tradition, it just so happens that, out here in Central Time, my church service–the only one–overlaps with Sunday football as well. Almost needless to say, I prioritize participating in communion over being a Tebow fanboy. And, while this may be slightly unfair, I think it’s a reasonable assumption that a local church congregation is not a prominent part of Tebow’s current life.

    But hey, he kneels on the football field and spouts random, theologically vacuous stuff about Jesus, so he must be a HERO “STANDING for CHRIST!!!”

  • Cincinnatus

    Really, Grace? Really? In order to defend Tebow from “bigotry,” you’re going to attack the sincere practices of a sabbatarian Christian? Would that we all, like Richard, took the Scriptures more seriously than we do cultural icons.

    For the record, while I’m not a strict sabbatarian in the Westminster tradition, it just so happens that, out here in Central Time, my church service–the only one–overlaps with Sunday football as well. Almost needless to say, I prioritize participating in communion over being a Tebow fanboy. And, while this may be slightly unfair, I think it’s a reasonable assumption that a local church congregation is not a prominent part of Tebow’s current life.

    But hey, he kneels on the football field and spouts random, theologically vacuous stuff about Jesus, so he must be a HERO “STANDING for CHRIST!!!”

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 208

    “Really, Grace? Really? In order to defend Tebow from “bigotry,” you’re going to attack the sincere practices of a sabbatarian Christian? Would that we all, like Richard, took the Scriptures more seriously than we do cultural icons.

    I asked Richard a question, it was not an “attack” as you accuse.

    There is no point in your comparing “seriously” taking the Scriptures between myself, Richard and Tebow – you do not know my heart, …. you’re hip shooting without thinking.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @ 208

    “Really, Grace? Really? In order to defend Tebow from “bigotry,” you’re going to attack the sincere practices of a sabbatarian Christian? Would that we all, like Richard, took the Scriptures more seriously than we do cultural icons.

    I asked Richard a question, it was not an “attack” as you accuse.

    There is no point in your comparing “seriously” taking the Scriptures between myself, Richard and Tebow – you do not know my heart, …. you’re hip shooting without thinking.

  • Cincinnatus

    Sure, Grace, you were just asking an innocent question out of theological, intellectual curiosity. You totally weren’t calling into question the legitimacy of his beliefs or implying that they are incorrect (as part of your end-game to prove that Tebow is a hero, I guess, and that anyone who disagrees and doesn’t support him totally is a jealous, unchristlike, bigoted heretic).

  • Cincinnatus

    Sure, Grace, you were just asking an innocent question out of theological, intellectual curiosity. You totally weren’t calling into question the legitimacy of his beliefs or implying that they are incorrect (as part of your end-game to prove that Tebow is a hero, I guess, and that anyone who disagrees and doesn’t support him totally is a jealous, unchristlike, bigoted heretic).

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @210

    I was asking an “innocent question” – your anger doesn’t make sense.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @210

    I was asking an “innocent question” – your anger doesn’t make sense.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jason said (@199):

    YES. We as Christians need to stand up. Now I’m not saying to go to Wal-Mart and scream in the store that you are a believer in Christ…

    Tsk, tsk, Jason! If you’re not willing to commit to screaming about Jesus in a Wal-Mart — and likewise demanding that all other Christians do the same — then Evangelicals like Grace necessarily have to question your commitment to Jesus. Sounds like you’re not willing to give God 110%, Jason. Tim Tebow kneels on plastic grass on public TV, and you’re not even willing to yell in front of a few people at wal-Mart? You sound ashamed to me. You’re not getting into Heaven with an attitude like that, you know.

    Too many Christians are just PLAYING church and not truly in love with God.

    Indeed. What’s sadder, though, is that too many Christians talk about how much they love God, missing the whole point that Christianity is about how much God loves them, potentially imperiling the very faith they boast about by putting its focus on the wrong thing.

    Jesus is coming back for his church WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH.

    Actually, Jesus came so that his Church would be without spot or blemish — you didn’t think you could make yourself spotless by kneeling on public TV, did you?

    I will take a stand for JESUS and STAY UNASHAMED!!!!!

    Right. But not in a Wal-Mart, apparently.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jason said (@199):

    YES. We as Christians need to stand up. Now I’m not saying to go to Wal-Mart and scream in the store that you are a believer in Christ…

    Tsk, tsk, Jason! If you’re not willing to commit to screaming about Jesus in a Wal-Mart — and likewise demanding that all other Christians do the same — then Evangelicals like Grace necessarily have to question your commitment to Jesus. Sounds like you’re not willing to give God 110%, Jason. Tim Tebow kneels on plastic grass on public TV, and you’re not even willing to yell in front of a few people at wal-Mart? You sound ashamed to me. You’re not getting into Heaven with an attitude like that, you know.

    Too many Christians are just PLAYING church and not truly in love with God.

    Indeed. What’s sadder, though, is that too many Christians talk about how much they love God, missing the whole point that Christianity is about how much God loves them, potentially imperiling the very faith they boast about by putting its focus on the wrong thing.

    Jesus is coming back for his church WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH.

    Actually, Jesus came so that his Church would be without spot or blemish — you didn’t think you could make yourself spotless by kneeling on public TV, did you?

    I will take a stand for JESUS and STAY UNASHAMED!!!!!

    Right. But not in a Wal-Mart, apparently.

  • Grace

    Tsk, tsk, Jason! If you’re not willing to commit to screaming about Jesus in a Wal-Mart — and likewise demanding that all other Christians do the same — then Evangelicals like Grace necessarily have to question your commitment to Jesus.

    “Tsk, tsk,” ? isn’t that just real girly? :lol:

    You don’t speak for me – making statements regarding what I would or would not say are FALSE.

    Speak for yourself, I don’t need a mouth piece that spouts things I don’t say!

  • Grace

    Tsk, tsk, Jason! If you’re not willing to commit to screaming about Jesus in a Wal-Mart — and likewise demanding that all other Christians do the same — then Evangelicals like Grace necessarily have to question your commitment to Jesus.

    “Tsk, tsk,” ? isn’t that just real girly? :lol:

    You don’t speak for me – making statements regarding what I would or would not say are FALSE.

    Speak for yourself, I don’t need a mouth piece that spouts things I don’t say!

  • Grace

    Jason @ 199

    I’m sorry for not posting to you sooner.

    YOU WROTE:

    “Too many Christians are just PLAYING church and not truly in love with God. I will take a stand for JESUS and STAY UNASHAMED!!!!! Jesus is coming back for his church WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH. Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!’

    AMEN – you are right. We need more men like you… as you stated:

    Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!’

  • Grace

    Jason @ 199

    I’m sorry for not posting to you sooner.

    YOU WROTE:

    “Too many Christians are just PLAYING church and not truly in love with God. I will take a stand for JESUS and STAY UNASHAMED!!!!! Jesus is coming back for his church WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH. Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!’

    AMEN – you are right. We need more men like you… as you stated:

    Do not hide in the background, STAND for CHRIST!!!!!!’

  • Richard

    Grace,
    This is from the Westminster Confession, see especially section 8:
    Chapter XXI
    Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
    I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

    II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]

    III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9] according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]

    IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]

    V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

    VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshipped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families[30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or wilfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by His Word or providence, calls thereunto.[33]

    VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

    VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]

  • Richard

    Grace,
    This is from the Westminster Confession, see especially section 8:
    Chapter XXI
    Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
    I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

    II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]

    III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9] according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]

    IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]

    V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

    VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshipped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families[30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or wilfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by His Word or providence, calls thereunto.[33]

    VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

    VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith: “Shouldn’t we support him [Tim Tebow] and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    Cincinnatus, #201 in a twist of Jason’s comment in #199: “So, in order to “STAND for CHRIST” properly, I need to kneel publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens (but presumably not when something bad happens) and, whenever someone asks me a generic question about my occupation or anything else, I need to spout some platitudes about Jesus. Got it.”

    Richard, #202, following the lead in #201: “Cincinnatus is right. And I’m also not understanding how kneeling publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens fulfills my vocation as an employee of my office. I think some of us are not getting what vocation is about.”

    With regards to Dr. Gene Veith’s suggestion “and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith, what are you folks doing currently?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith: “Shouldn’t we support him [Tim Tebow] and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith than we are?”

    Cincinnatus, #201 in a twist of Jason’s comment in #199: “So, in order to “STAND for CHRIST” properly, I need to kneel publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens (but presumably not when something bad happens) and, whenever someone asks me a generic question about my occupation or anything else, I need to spout some platitudes about Jesus. Got it.”

    Richard, #202, following the lead in #201: “Cincinnatus is right. And I’m also not understanding how kneeling publicly in my place of work whenever something good happens fulfills my vocation as an employee of my office. I think some of us are not getting what vocation is about.”

    With regards to Dr. Gene Veith’s suggestion “and maybe ourselves be more open about our faith, what are you folks doing currently?

  • Grace

    Richard @ 215

    I asked you in post 207 Which ones do you keep? the reason I asked that question is, because there are those who don’t cook food, or do a number of things on the Sabbath. I would still like to hear your answer.

    As a pastors daughter, I’m very aware of services and time spent on Sunday, both in church and at home. There was Sunday school, morning Worship and an evening service. My mother prepared a dinner, which we enjoyed about 1:30 PM – we often times had guests, and then services in the evening.. after which we often had guests again, for light refreshments.

    I still don’t shop on Sunday, unless I have to.

    In regards to Westminster Confession section 8. Again… I would like to know how you observe Sunday.

    I don’t believe it’s wrong to watch a football game on TV.

    I refer to the passage in Scripture which reads:

    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Colossians 2:16

  • Grace

    Richard @ 215

    I asked you in post 207 Which ones do you keep? the reason I asked that question is, because there are those who don’t cook food, or do a number of things on the Sabbath. I would still like to hear your answer.

    As a pastors daughter, I’m very aware of services and time spent on Sunday, both in church and at home. There was Sunday school, morning Worship and an evening service. My mother prepared a dinner, which we enjoyed about 1:30 PM – we often times had guests, and then services in the evening.. after which we often had guests again, for light refreshments.

    I still don’t shop on Sunday, unless I have to.

    In regards to Westminster Confession section 8. Again… I would like to know how you observe Sunday.

    I don’t believe it’s wrong to watch a football game on TV.

    I refer to the passage in Scripture which reads:

    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Colossians 2:16

  • Richard

    TUAD,
    I’m being faithful at my vocations of husband, father, and employee, and loving my neighbor through my vocations, because this is what God has called me to, thanks for asking.

    Grace, I’m aware of the passage in Colossians. I hope you’re not judging me in the way I keep the Lord’s Day? I avoid shopping or any commercial endeavors and watching sports (although I slip!) and entertainment (although I slip in that as well!). And I’m in church. Actually, your parents’ situation sounds ideal. No, I don’t go over-board about the “no cooking” part.

  • Richard

    TUAD,
    I’m being faithful at my vocations of husband, father, and employee, and loving my neighbor through my vocations, because this is what God has called me to, thanks for asking.

    Grace, I’m aware of the passage in Colossians. I hope you’re not judging me in the way I keep the Lord’s Day? I avoid shopping or any commercial endeavors and watching sports (although I slip!) and entertainment (although I slip in that as well!). And I’m in church. Actually, your parents’ situation sounds ideal. No, I don’t go over-board about the “no cooking” part.

  • Grace

    Richard @ 218

    I don’t judge you at all.

    Sunday has always been a very special day in my life – actually Saturday is as well.

    I have become conflicted as to Saturday and Sunday. I don’t spend Saturdays the way I used to, .. meaning I study more, do more Biblical research. It just happened, .. I don’t believe it was done on purpose, it just evolved into a day spent differently from how I used to use my time.

    God bless you and your family -

  • Grace

    Richard @ 218

    I don’t judge you at all.

    Sunday has always been a very special day in my life – actually Saturday is as well.

    I have become conflicted as to Saturday and Sunday. I don’t spend Saturdays the way I used to, .. meaning I study more, do more Biblical research. It just happened, .. I don’t believe it was done on purpose, it just evolved into a day spent differently from how I used to use my time.

    God bless you and your family -

  • Richard

    God bless you too, Grace. It sounds as if you had a very precious and blessed upbringing, thank God.

  • Richard

    God bless you too, Grace. It sounds as if you had a very precious and blessed upbringing, thank God.

  • Grace

    Thanks Richard, I was very blessed of God. It sounds like you and your family are very much the same.

    I wish all children and families had such wonderful love and fellowship, but most of all knowing our LORD as Savior, being taught about God’s HOLY Word.

    I understand your position now,.. thanks for being patient and answering my questions. You have a very big responsibility within your church, the commitment to serve HIM, spreading the Gospel to a hurting world, caring for the congregants within your church.

    Again, blessings to you and your family.

  • Grace

    Thanks Richard, I was very blessed of God. It sounds like you and your family are very much the same.

    I wish all children and families had such wonderful love and fellowship, but most of all knowing our LORD as Savior, being taught about God’s HOLY Word.

    I understand your position now,.. thanks for being patient and answering my questions. You have a very big responsibility within your church, the commitment to serve HIM, spreading the Gospel to a hurting world, caring for the congregants within your church.

    Again, blessings to you and your family.

  • Cincinnatus

    So we’re all good, then? We can disagree about Tebow now?

  • Cincinnatus

    So we’re all good, then? We can disagree about Tebow now?

  • Jason

    Todd @212,

    First off, God Bless!! I would just like to clarify my post before you send me to the stake my friend!! Nowhere did I say that I am not WILLING to scream about Jesus in a Wal-Mart. The reason why I said that is because we as Christians also need to be smart when in the presence of non-belivers as well. If you go into a Wal-Mart and start yelling about Jesus, You would probably scare more people away from God than convert them. The right times present themselves. When someone asks me if I am a Christian or if I am a believer, that is when I am to deliver. I would not be too excited about going to jail for screaming in a store and at the same time pushing people away from wanting to know God. Lets be realistic here Todd. At my job or anywhere for that matter, I don’t HAVE to yell it. You know why Todd? People see it. Christ shows in me Todd. They come up to me and ask me what is different about me. I am currently in a battle for my life right now fighting a terrible infection from Lyme Disease. My attitude or actions are not what will get me into heaven. If heaven wasn’t for free, none of us would get in. If you don’t mind, your prayers would be well thanked.

  • Jason

    Todd @212,

    First off, God Bless!! I would just like to clarify my post before you send me to the stake my friend!! Nowhere did I say that I am not WILLING to scream about Jesus in a Wal-Mart. The reason why I said that is because we as Christians also need to be smart when in the presence of non-belivers as well. If you go into a Wal-Mart and start yelling about Jesus, You would probably scare more people away from God than convert them. The right times present themselves. When someone asks me if I am a Christian or if I am a believer, that is when I am to deliver. I would not be too excited about going to jail for screaming in a store and at the same time pushing people away from wanting to know God. Lets be realistic here Todd. At my job or anywhere for that matter, I don’t HAVE to yell it. You know why Todd? People see it. Christ shows in me Todd. They come up to me and ask me what is different about me. I am currently in a battle for my life right now fighting a terrible infection from Lyme Disease. My attitude or actions are not what will get me into heaven. If heaven wasn’t for free, none of us would get in. If you don’t mind, your prayers would be well thanked.

  • Grace

    Jason,

    I’m praying for you, and will continue.

    God bless you, and heal your body.

  • Grace

    Jason,

    I’m praying for you, and will continue.

    God bless you, and heal your body.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jason, you said (@223):

    We as Christians also need to be smart when in the presence of non-believers. … The right times present themselves.

    Indeed. And this is exactly the point that most of us who’ve been criticizing Tebow have been making. And such points have universally been shot down by Grace, et al., as being demonstrative of “envy” or whatever other nonsense.

    But if you reread your original comment (@199), you’ll see that it doesn’t actually say anything about “being smart” or waiting for the “right time”. No, yours was a fairly histrionic comment that appeared to imply that you are either with Tim Tebow or you are “ASHAMED” and not “STANDING for CHRIST!!!!!”

    I mean, I’m glad to see you tone it down and make a concession to wisdom, but really, that wasn’t in your original comment.

    Christ shows in me Todd.

    Okay, but you also seem to enjoy bragging about your part of your relationship with Christ. I can’t speak for others, but that certainly turns me off — because it misses the point of Christianity. Boast about your weaknesses or about what Christ has done for you, but I don’t much care about how awesome you are.

    I am sorry to hear about your illness, and have prayed for you.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jason, you said (@223):

    We as Christians also need to be smart when in the presence of non-believers. … The right times present themselves.

    Indeed. And this is exactly the point that most of us who’ve been criticizing Tebow have been making. And such points have universally been shot down by Grace, et al., as being demonstrative of “envy” or whatever other nonsense.

    But if you reread your original comment (@199), you’ll see that it doesn’t actually say anything about “being smart” or waiting for the “right time”. No, yours was a fairly histrionic comment that appeared to imply that you are either with Tim Tebow or you are “ASHAMED” and not “STANDING for CHRIST!!!!!”

    I mean, I’m glad to see you tone it down and make a concession to wisdom, but really, that wasn’t in your original comment.

    Christ shows in me Todd.

    Okay, but you also seem to enjoy bragging about your part of your relationship with Christ. I can’t speak for others, but that certainly turns me off — because it misses the point of Christianity. Boast about your weaknesses or about what Christ has done for you, but I don’t much care about how awesome you are.

    I am sorry to hear about your illness, and have prayed for you.

  • Richard

    We are praying for you, Jason. Please let us know how you are doing. Cincinnatus–I think we can disagree about Tebow now without being relegated to the doghouse. I think.

  • Richard

    We are praying for you, Jason. Please let us know how you are doing. Cincinnatus–I think we can disagree about Tebow now without being relegated to the doghouse. I think.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    You have often claimed that anyone who criticizes someone you like (eg. Jews, Tim Tebow) is “just jealous” of their success. So I thought I’d ask you what you make of this:

    http://news.yahoo.com/rabbi-claims-tebow-superbowl-win-lead-christians-burn-140804252–spt.html

    I guess some of your favorite people are capable of being jealous of each other.

    I only bring this up to suggest that not all criticism is motivated by jealousy. I mean, maybe, just maybe, Kurt Warner’s gentle criticism of Tim Tebow is an older Christian brother trying to give a younger brother the benefit of his experience. But you dismissed it as jealousy and “sour grapes” right off the bat. I know you’re not a Lutheran, so you are not bound by this, but here’s what our Small Catechism says about the 8th Commandment:

    “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

    What does this mean?–Answer.

    We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.”

    Putting the best construction on what Kurt Warner says would seem to include not assuming that he has a bad motive for what he says.

    On the other hand, it would also include not being too hard on Tim Tebow. I’ve listened to a lot of what he says, and I haven’t really noticed a lot of self-glorification in it.

    Oh sure, some of his fans get carried away, such as that dreadful web page (The Man, the Message, the Ministry) which was glorifying man’s works to the nth degree. (News flash: The Gospel is NOT, “Do your best and God will do the rest.”).

    But Tebow himself seems to have made the following calculation:

    1. A successful NFL (or Div I NCAA) quarterback has a very high profile and lots of “fans”, such that whatever that quarterback says will be listened to , and such that much of what he does will be widely imitated.

    2. A Christian has a duty to spread the Gospel as much as possible.

    3. I (Tebow) am a Christian with a high profile and fan base.

    4. Therefore, it is my (Tebow’s) duty to use that high profile and fan base to preach the Gospel and set an example of faith and a willingness to publicly declare that faith such that, God willing, more people will believe and then share their own faith with others.

    That seems like the best construction to me, anyway. Granted, Tebow is a young man, and apparently a very outgoing personality. I can see why even his well meaning critics wish he would tone it down sometimes. And I can even understand how some unbelievers, like Rabbi Hammerman would perceive Tebow, and his fans, as a threat. But I also think that there are always some people who will be put off, while others are attracted, to almost any tactic or personality used to preach God’s Word. All of us should allow for some variety. And I don’t think that Tim Tebow (although his fans might go too far more often) strays that far out of bounds very much. Perhaps he will increase his level of wisdom with age and the good counsel of other Christians. But I certainly hope he never shuts up about Christianity. I still think he is doing more good than harm.

    And the football fan in me is hoping that Denver makes the playoffs. I love to see anybody succeed by methods that are outside the box.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    You have often claimed that anyone who criticizes someone you like (eg. Jews, Tim Tebow) is “just jealous” of their success. So I thought I’d ask you what you make of this:

    http://news.yahoo.com/rabbi-claims-tebow-superbowl-win-lead-christians-burn-140804252–spt.html

    I guess some of your favorite people are capable of being jealous of each other.

    I only bring this up to suggest that not all criticism is motivated by jealousy. I mean, maybe, just maybe, Kurt Warner’s gentle criticism of Tim Tebow is an older Christian brother trying to give a younger brother the benefit of his experience. But you dismissed it as jealousy and “sour grapes” right off the bat. I know you’re not a Lutheran, so you are not bound by this, but here’s what our Small Catechism says about the 8th Commandment:

    “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

    What does this mean?–Answer.

    We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.”

    Putting the best construction on what Kurt Warner says would seem to include not assuming that he has a bad motive for what he says.

    On the other hand, it would also include not being too hard on Tim Tebow. I’ve listened to a lot of what he says, and I haven’t really noticed a lot of self-glorification in it.

    Oh sure, some of his fans get carried away, such as that dreadful web page (The Man, the Message, the Ministry) which was glorifying man’s works to the nth degree. (News flash: The Gospel is NOT, “Do your best and God will do the rest.”).

    But Tebow himself seems to have made the following calculation:

    1. A successful NFL (or Div I NCAA) quarterback has a very high profile and lots of “fans”, such that whatever that quarterback says will be listened to , and such that much of what he does will be widely imitated.

    2. A Christian has a duty to spread the Gospel as much as possible.

    3. I (Tebow) am a Christian with a high profile and fan base.

    4. Therefore, it is my (Tebow’s) duty to use that high profile and fan base to preach the Gospel and set an example of faith and a willingness to publicly declare that faith such that, God willing, more people will believe and then share their own faith with others.

    That seems like the best construction to me, anyway. Granted, Tebow is a young man, and apparently a very outgoing personality. I can see why even his well meaning critics wish he would tone it down sometimes. And I can even understand how some unbelievers, like Rabbi Hammerman would perceive Tebow, and his fans, as a threat. But I also think that there are always some people who will be put off, while others are attracted, to almost any tactic or personality used to preach God’s Word. All of us should allow for some variety. And I don’t think that Tim Tebow (although his fans might go too far more often) strays that far out of bounds very much. Perhaps he will increase his level of wisdom with age and the good counsel of other Christians. But I certainly hope he never shuts up about Christianity. I still think he is doing more good than harm.

    And the football fan in me is hoping that Denver makes the playoffs. I love to see anybody succeed by methods that are outside the box.

  • kerner

    Oh, and Jason, my prayers are with you also.

  • kerner

    Oh, and Jason, my prayers are with you also.

  • Grace

    kerner @227

    “You have often claimed that anyone who criticizes someone you like (eg. Jews, Tim Tebow) is “just jealous” of their success. So I thought I’d ask you what you make of this:”

    Kerner, I don’t often claim “jealousy” – but there are those who ARE obviously envious. As for the LINK you gave that makes no sense. Who knows why this particular Rabbi made those ridiculous statements. I doubt there are many Rabbi’s who would agree with him.

    “Rabbi: Tebow Super Bowl Win Would Lead Christians to Burn Mosques & Banish Immigrants

    Who would listen to such nonsense?

    Making the statement which has prompted you to write this very long post – which is that Warner just might be envious, and many others who are jealous of Tebow’s success. The 8th Commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” doesn’t apply. Everyone has a right to pray, or give God the glory for what he does for them. Others find fault with it. When it comes to sports, envy isn’t a rare trait.

    Kurt Warner’s ‘so called gentle criticism was PUBLIC, NOT PRIVATE. If Warner really wanted to speak to Tebow, he would have done it privately, but that isn’t what he did. Instead, Kurt Warner used the PUBLIC VENUE to blow his horn, thinking he could trim Tim Tebow down regarding his kneeling, praying and other signs of thanking God. Kurt Warner has gotten all kinds of ATTENTION for his public rebuke of Tebow –

    Think about it!

  • Grace

    kerner @227

    “You have often claimed that anyone who criticizes someone you like (eg. Jews, Tim Tebow) is “just jealous” of their success. So I thought I’d ask you what you make of this:”

    Kerner, I don’t often claim “jealousy” – but there are those who ARE obviously envious. As for the LINK you gave that makes no sense. Who knows why this particular Rabbi made those ridiculous statements. I doubt there are many Rabbi’s who would agree with him.

    “Rabbi: Tebow Super Bowl Win Would Lead Christians to Burn Mosques & Banish Immigrants

    Who would listen to such nonsense?

    Making the statement which has prompted you to write this very long post – which is that Warner just might be envious, and many others who are jealous of Tebow’s success. The 8th Commandment, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” doesn’t apply. Everyone has a right to pray, or give God the glory for what he does for them. Others find fault with it. When it comes to sports, envy isn’t a rare trait.

    Kurt Warner’s ‘so called gentle criticism was PUBLIC, NOT PRIVATE. If Warner really wanted to speak to Tebow, he would have done it privately, but that isn’t what he did. Instead, Kurt Warner used the PUBLIC VENUE to blow his horn, thinking he could trim Tim Tebow down regarding his kneeling, praying and other signs of thanking God. Kurt Warner has gotten all kinds of ATTENTION for his public rebuke of Tebow –

    Think about it!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh Grace (@229), you don’t see the irony in your argument at all, do you?

    After all, you’re complaining that a football player was doing something in “PUBLIC, NOT PRIVATE”. That if he “really” wanted to speak to someone else, “he would have done it privately”. That he used a “PUBLIC VENUE” to bring focus to himself, rather than to the communication he was ostensibly undertaking. That he, in short, abused his fame and position to get “all kinds of ATTENTION”.

    Man, that’s … that’s rich, Grace. Too much!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh Grace (@229), you don’t see the irony in your argument at all, do you?

    After all, you’re complaining that a football player was doing something in “PUBLIC, NOT PRIVATE”. That if he “really” wanted to speak to someone else, “he would have done it privately”. That he used a “PUBLIC VENUE” to bring focus to himself, rather than to the communication he was ostensibly undertaking. That he, in short, abused his fame and position to get “all kinds of ATTENTION”.

    Man, that’s … that’s rich, Grace. Too much!

  • Grace

    It is “rich” to see a dedicated man such as Tim Tebow thanking God, be it kneeling, praying, or other signs of PRAISE.

    Tebow gives thanks, and PRAISE to God … Kurt Warner complains about such PRAISE.

    I have to laugh,….. I haven’t heard or read anywhere, phrases such as … “that’s rich” or “too much” for years – they used to use those phrases ten years ago, but not today. :lol:

  • Grace

    It is “rich” to see a dedicated man such as Tim Tebow thanking God, be it kneeling, praying, or other signs of PRAISE.

    Tebow gives thanks, and PRAISE to God … Kurt Warner complains about such PRAISE.

    I have to laugh,….. I haven’t heard or read anywhere, phrases such as … “that’s rich” or “too much” for years – they used to use those phrases ten years ago, but not today. :lol:

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, surely you saw this coming, Grace (@229). You said:

    Kerner, I don’t often claim “jealousy”…

    Oh, come on. Am I the only one who reads your posts, then? Not even you? Or is your spouting “jealousy” something of a nervous tic, such that you’re not even aware you do it anymore? Let’s review (I’ll bold the words for emphasis):

    The USA supported the Jews during WW2 and continue to this day, that isn’t going to change no matter how jealous the rest of the world becomes over Jerusalem, Israel and the Jews. It is “JEALOUSY,” that is what ignited the flame of Nazism, and others before them. It was extinguished in 1945, but it flickers and burns deep within the jealous heart of many.[1]

    Jealousy of the Jews, and their land Israel, is obvious. Hatred and jealousy often go hand in hand.[2]

    Individuals who follow Christ, do not “rationalize” such evil practices of Hitler and the majority of Germany. Jealousy, hatred and the desire of a ‘Superior Race’ — minus the Jews were their goal.[3]

    Luther made a big thing of “usury” – it all directs back to the Jews who loaned money, the jealousy others had when having to pay “usury” (interest) on monies borrowed. Nothing is different today. [4]

    Jealousy of the Jewish people has been going on for a long time, it doesn’t change the Covenants of God.[5]

    Martin Luther had no use for the book of Revelation. His nasty remarks, sound more like a jealous child, unable to understand how God blessed and gave John the Revelation, instead of him (Luther) … Couple the statement by Martin Luther above, the book of hatred against the Jews, and the book of Esther in the Old Testament which Luther found to be too Jewish, and you have a man who is consumed with anger and resentment. Maybe Martin Luther was envious because he wasn’t born a Jew! There is jealousy today of the Jews, it has always been a problem. All the Apostles were Jews.

    Martin Luther had no use for the book of Revelation. His outlandish remarks, sound more like a jealous child, unable to understand how God blessed and gave John the Revelation, instead of him (Luther) … I believe Martin Luther was jealous because he wasn’t born a Jew – after all the Apostles were Jews.[7]

    It is no different today Kerner, the envy and jealousy still exist.[8]

    Transporting children from inter-city to the other side of town doesn’t work. Jealousy and anger, isn’t fair to inflict on the children who don’t play by STREET RULE, who have more. … I have stated many times, that UNIFORMS for all children K-12 would eliminate much of the anger and jealousy, it would cut down on competition, and put the emphasis on academics rather than what another child’s parents can or cannot afford.[9]

    What I have outlined above has become the norm. The jealousy that once only appeared to germinate as a bad seed , has now spread, and its roots are well sown within the community that did not found our country or do they understand the sacrifice our loved ones gave, so that that THEY might have a better life, either in their country, or in ours.[10]

    He’s not an “entertainer” – he’s a very intelligent man, one whom many are jealous of. Envy of Newt has become disgusting.[11]

    Perry has had quite a career, of course there are more than enough jealous males, and females, just like there was at A&M – Envy is a hard road to walk, so many walk down that path, never realizing that if they worked on their on life, they wouldn’t have time to find fault with a guy who probably had more fun than most guys in college…. pranks and yells – WOO HOO![12]

    Those who find fault with Dr. Veith’s blog are most likely jealous.[13]

    I was very blessed to have my parents – my father was very careful to drive me back and forth to school as I grew older – I was chased after school, threatened, and many wanted to beat me up. I could take it, I had my father’s spirit, but I wasn’t strong enough to stand against so many jealous girls.[14]

    The pain and anguish that must have been endured, the humiliation and lack of manhood that was taken away by a JEALOUS leader such as Hitler and his henchmen, it’s all too ugly, and will remain a mark on all those who despise the Jewish people – it remains even until today.[15]

    Envy is an ugly demon -[16]

    ENVY is a problem for many, it sticks out like a snake without teeth![17]

    That really isn’t the whole story. “ENVY” when in full bloom, hurts the one who suffers from the sin. It’s teeth are razor sharp, in the end, it is they who suffer the wound.[18]

    I see a lot of envy, not just about this man, but others who stand out. Envy is a dangerous thing, it destroys peoples lives, they see little to joy in others, rather finding fault, and excuses to voice their displeasure.[19]

    Maybe it’s just plain envy for many who either don’t share the Gospel, OR those who don’t want the Gospel shared, or maybe it’s because some wanted to play sports in school, but they didn’t have the ability. When you read this thread over, one can see the true :mrgreen: coming out.[20]

    Everyone has a right to pray, or give God the glory for what he does for them. Others find fault with it. When it comes to sports, envy isn’t a rare trait.[21]

    Hitler was full of envy and greed. He hated the Jews for a number of reasons, and so did the majority of Germans. When ENVY takes hold, one is filled with evil and hatred[22]

    ENVY on this blog seems to be a disease that has spread like chicken pox, …. who would have ever known?[23]

    It would appear, you need to take your own “hypocrite” temperature. Envy doesn’t become anyone![24]

    Those who are fortunate to vacation and visit here in the U.S. love it here – however, they often then begin to find fault with the U.S. – perhaps it’s envy?[25]

    They were not as you say “low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional” – they were in fact the very opposite, that is why ENVY developed with Hitler leading the march. Have you studied WW2? – I have.[26]

    How envious can one become?[27]

    I don’t doubt for a moment that women are very envious of women who are brilliant, articulate and good looking, it’s sad but true.[28]

    I feel very sad when people come here, or when traveling people rant about the U.S. My opinion is; they are envious of the United States, and its citizens.[29]

    Many people, and heads of denominations have made snide, envious remarks concerning Calvary Chapel (YES, so called Believers can be ENVIOUS of those who start a work, brought forth by God, that is blessed and grows to fruition)[30]

    Tebow brings out anger and resentment among those who cannot accept his thankfulness, it makes them nervous and irritable, to the point of lashing out.[31]

    I’m sure he’s far from perfect, as are all the rest of us, however this constant harangue against the guy… from Christians is not kind, it reeks of jealousy and resentment.[32]

    In summary, Grace, you routinely “claim ‘jealousy’” — it is, it turns out, one of your prime tactics on this blog. What a ridiculous claim you have made, that you “don’t often” use this label!

    [1]geneveith.com/2011/09/15/what-would-a-theocracy-look-like/#comment-127216
    [2]geneveith.com/2011/09/15/what-would-a-theocracy-look-like/#comment-127358
    [3]geneveith.com/2011/08/31/human-experimentation-2/#comment-125914
    [4]geneveith.com/2011/11/22/luther-on-big-business/#comment-132815
    [5]geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117337
    [6]geneveith.com/2010/09/28/the-rich-man-lazarus/#comment-93332
    [7]geneveith.com/2010/09/28/the-rich-man-lazarus/#comment-94073
    [8]geneveith.com/2010/12/27/the-christmas-story-in-revelation/#comment-102944
    [9]geneveith.com/2010/10/25/jefferson-on-funding-npr/#comment-95626
    [10]geneveith.com/2010/09/13/the-charge-of-republican-racism/#comment-91349
    [11]geneveith.com/2011/12/12/its-all-true-about-gringrich/#comment-134493
    [12]geneveith.com/2011/11/11/perrys-last-gaffe/#comment-132095
    [13]geneveith.com/2011/04/26/this-ugly-blog/#comment-114153
    [14]geneveith.com/2011/10/05/mariology/#comment-128975
    [15]geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89665
    [16]geneveith.com/2010/12/09/why-dont-we-protect-iraqi-christians/#comment-100543
    [17]geneveith.com/2010/12/09/why-dont-we-protect-iraqi-christians/#comment-100593
    [18]geneveith.com/2010/12/09/why-dont-we-protect-iraqi-christians/#comment-100596
    [19]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-133868
    [20]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134157
    [21]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134909
    [22]geneveith.com/2011/08/31/human-experimentation-2/#comment-125914
    [23]geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117479
    [24]geneveith.com/2011/03/22/maybe-christians-arent-so-bad-after-all/#comment-110812
    [25]geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99355
    [26]geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89665
    [27]geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117477
    [28]geneveith.com/2010/02/02/women-vs-women/#comment-75761
    [29]geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99386
    [30]geneveith.com/2011/03/23/nominal-christians/#comment-112472
    [31]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134130
    [32]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134290

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, surely you saw this coming, Grace (@229). You said:

    Kerner, I don’t often claim “jealousy”…

    Oh, come on. Am I the only one who reads your posts, then? Not even you? Or is your spouting “jealousy” something of a nervous tic, such that you’re not even aware you do it anymore? Let’s review (I’ll bold the words for emphasis):

    The USA supported the Jews during WW2 and continue to this day, that isn’t going to change no matter how jealous the rest of the world becomes over Jerusalem, Israel and the Jews. It is “JEALOUSY,” that is what ignited the flame of Nazism, and others before them. It was extinguished in 1945, but it flickers and burns deep within the jealous heart of many.[1]

    Jealousy of the Jews, and their land Israel, is obvious. Hatred and jealousy often go hand in hand.[2]

    Individuals who follow Christ, do not “rationalize” such evil practices of Hitler and the majority of Germany. Jealousy, hatred and the desire of a ‘Superior Race’ — minus the Jews were their goal.[3]

    Luther made a big thing of “usury” – it all directs back to the Jews who loaned money, the jealousy others had when having to pay “usury” (interest) on monies borrowed. Nothing is different today. [4]

    Jealousy of the Jewish people has been going on for a long time, it doesn’t change the Covenants of God.[5]

    Martin Luther had no use for the book of Revelation. His nasty remarks, sound more like a jealous child, unable to understand how God blessed and gave John the Revelation, instead of him (Luther) … Couple the statement by Martin Luther above, the book of hatred against the Jews, and the book of Esther in the Old Testament which Luther found to be too Jewish, and you have a man who is consumed with anger and resentment. Maybe Martin Luther was envious because he wasn’t born a Jew! There is jealousy today of the Jews, it has always been a problem. All the Apostles were Jews.

    Martin Luther had no use for the book of Revelation. His outlandish remarks, sound more like a jealous child, unable to understand how God blessed and gave John the Revelation, instead of him (Luther) … I believe Martin Luther was jealous because he wasn’t born a Jew – after all the Apostles were Jews.[7]

    It is no different today Kerner, the envy and jealousy still exist.[8]

    Transporting children from inter-city to the other side of town doesn’t work. Jealousy and anger, isn’t fair to inflict on the children who don’t play by STREET RULE, who have more. … I have stated many times, that UNIFORMS for all children K-12 would eliminate much of the anger and jealousy, it would cut down on competition, and put the emphasis on academics rather than what another child’s parents can or cannot afford.[9]

    What I have outlined above has become the norm. The jealousy that once only appeared to germinate as a bad seed , has now spread, and its roots are well sown within the community that did not found our country or do they understand the sacrifice our loved ones gave, so that that THEY might have a better life, either in their country, or in ours.[10]

    He’s not an “entertainer” – he’s a very intelligent man, one whom many are jealous of. Envy of Newt has become disgusting.[11]

    Perry has had quite a career, of course there are more than enough jealous males, and females, just like there was at A&M – Envy is a hard road to walk, so many walk down that path, never realizing that if they worked on their on life, they wouldn’t have time to find fault with a guy who probably had more fun than most guys in college…. pranks and yells – WOO HOO![12]

    Those who find fault with Dr. Veith’s blog are most likely jealous.[13]

    I was very blessed to have my parents – my father was very careful to drive me back and forth to school as I grew older – I was chased after school, threatened, and many wanted to beat me up. I could take it, I had my father’s spirit, but I wasn’t strong enough to stand against so many jealous girls.[14]

    The pain and anguish that must have been endured, the humiliation and lack of manhood that was taken away by a JEALOUS leader such as Hitler and his henchmen, it’s all too ugly, and will remain a mark on all those who despise the Jewish people – it remains even until today.[15]

    Envy is an ugly demon -[16]

    ENVY is a problem for many, it sticks out like a snake without teeth![17]

    That really isn’t the whole story. “ENVY” when in full bloom, hurts the one who suffers from the sin. It’s teeth are razor sharp, in the end, it is they who suffer the wound.[18]

    I see a lot of envy, not just about this man, but others who stand out. Envy is a dangerous thing, it destroys peoples lives, they see little to joy in others, rather finding fault, and excuses to voice their displeasure.[19]

    Maybe it’s just plain envy for many who either don’t share the Gospel, OR those who don’t want the Gospel shared, or maybe it’s because some wanted to play sports in school, but they didn’t have the ability. When you read this thread over, one can see the true :mrgreen: coming out.[20]

    Everyone has a right to pray, or give God the glory for what he does for them. Others find fault with it. When it comes to sports, envy isn’t a rare trait.[21]

    Hitler was full of envy and greed. He hated the Jews for a number of reasons, and so did the majority of Germans. When ENVY takes hold, one is filled with evil and hatred[22]

    ENVY on this blog seems to be a disease that has spread like chicken pox, …. who would have ever known?[23]

    It would appear, you need to take your own “hypocrite” temperature. Envy doesn’t become anyone![24]

    Those who are fortunate to vacation and visit here in the U.S. love it here – however, they often then begin to find fault with the U.S. – perhaps it’s envy?[25]

    They were not as you say “low education, hight crime, highly dysfunctional” – they were in fact the very opposite, that is why ENVY developed with Hitler leading the march. Have you studied WW2? – I have.[26]

    How envious can one become?[27]

    I don’t doubt for a moment that women are very envious of women who are brilliant, articulate and good looking, it’s sad but true.[28]

    I feel very sad when people come here, or when traveling people rant about the U.S. My opinion is; they are envious of the United States, and its citizens.[29]

    Many people, and heads of denominations have made snide, envious remarks concerning Calvary Chapel (YES, so called Believers can be ENVIOUS of those who start a work, brought forth by God, that is blessed and grows to fruition)[30]

    Tebow brings out anger and resentment among those who cannot accept his thankfulness, it makes them nervous and irritable, to the point of lashing out.[31]

    I’m sure he’s far from perfect, as are all the rest of us, however this constant harangue against the guy… from Christians is not kind, it reeks of jealousy and resentment.[32]

    In summary, Grace, you routinely “claim ‘jealousy’” — it is, it turns out, one of your prime tactics on this blog. What a ridiculous claim you have made, that you “don’t often” use this label!

    [1]geneveith.com/2011/09/15/what-would-a-theocracy-look-like/#comment-127216
    [2]geneveith.com/2011/09/15/what-would-a-theocracy-look-like/#comment-127358
    [3]geneveith.com/2011/08/31/human-experimentation-2/#comment-125914
    [4]geneveith.com/2011/11/22/luther-on-big-business/#comment-132815
    [5]geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117337
    [6]geneveith.com/2010/09/28/the-rich-man-lazarus/#comment-93332
    [7]geneveith.com/2010/09/28/the-rich-man-lazarus/#comment-94073
    [8]geneveith.com/2010/12/27/the-christmas-story-in-revelation/#comment-102944
    [9]geneveith.com/2010/10/25/jefferson-on-funding-npr/#comment-95626
    [10]geneveith.com/2010/09/13/the-charge-of-republican-racism/#comment-91349
    [11]geneveith.com/2011/12/12/its-all-true-about-gringrich/#comment-134493
    [12]geneveith.com/2011/11/11/perrys-last-gaffe/#comment-132095
    [13]geneveith.com/2011/04/26/this-ugly-blog/#comment-114153
    [14]geneveith.com/2011/10/05/mariology/#comment-128975
    [15]geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89665
    [16]geneveith.com/2010/12/09/why-dont-we-protect-iraqi-christians/#comment-100543
    [17]geneveith.com/2010/12/09/why-dont-we-protect-iraqi-christians/#comment-100593
    [18]geneveith.com/2010/12/09/why-dont-we-protect-iraqi-christians/#comment-100596
    [19]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-133868
    [20]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134157
    [21]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134909
    [22]geneveith.com/2011/08/31/human-experimentation-2/#comment-125914
    [23]geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117479
    [24]geneveith.com/2011/03/22/maybe-christians-arent-so-bad-after-all/#comment-110812
    [25]geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99355
    [26]geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/#comment-89665
    [27]geneveith.com/2011/05/24/obama-wants-israel-to-go-back-to-1967-borders/#comment-117477
    [28]geneveith.com/2010/02/02/women-vs-women/#comment-75761
    [29]geneveith.com/2010/12/01/is-america-exceptional-or-what/#comment-99386
    [30]geneveith.com/2011/03/23/nominal-christians/#comment-112472
    [31]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134130
    [32]geneveith.com/2011/12/06/anti-tebow-bigotry/#comment-134290

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, and one more thing, Grace (@231). Is this really all you have to say in response to my comment (@230):

    I have to laugh,….. I haven’t heard or read anywhere, phrases such as … “that’s rich” or “too much” for years – they used to use those phrases ten years ago, but not today. :lol:

    You — you who called me (@168) a “nit-picker”, and then complained again (@175), alleging my “nit-picking constantly” — are now criticizing the phrases I use? And not because they are erroneous in any way, but because they fail to meet your ludicrous trendiness qualification?

    Honestly, what’s the point of even writing such an execrable excuse for a reply? It makes it obvious you have nothing intelligent to say in response. It would save you time, therefore, to literally write nothing.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, and one more thing, Grace (@231). Is this really all you have to say in response to my comment (@230):

    I have to laugh,….. I haven’t heard or read anywhere, phrases such as … “that’s rich” or “too much” for years – they used to use those phrases ten years ago, but not today. :lol:

    You — you who called me (@168) a “nit-picker”, and then complained again (@175), alleging my “nit-picking constantly” — are now criticizing the phrases I use? And not because they are erroneous in any way, but because they fail to meet your ludicrous trendiness qualification?

    Honestly, what’s the point of even writing such an execrable excuse for a reply? It makes it obvious you have nothing intelligent to say in response. It would save you time, therefore, to literally write nothing.

  • http://www.tebowformvp.com/ Morris

    People talk about the Denver defense and how they deserve much credit. They … but the defense played so well as when Orton was under center. Tebow is a number, of course, is not impressive, but his presence, and only about their power has increased, that the defense plays, where they are one of the best in the league, because Tebow is taking over. whatever, we can get more info on http://www.tebowformvp.com/, thanx

  • http://www.tebowformvp.com/ Morris

    People talk about the Denver defense and how they deserve much credit. They … but the defense played so well as when Orton was under center. Tebow is a number, of course, is not impressive, but his presence, and only about their power has increased, that the defense plays, where they are one of the best in the league, because Tebow is taking over. whatever, we can get more info on http://www.tebowformvp.com/, thanx

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Excerpts from a Denver Bronco Sports Beat Writer: “We walked toward the exit — among the last to leave the locker room after a 41-23 loss to the Patriots on Sunday — as I began to ask the first of what I hoped would be a series of questions.

    “How is the strength of your faith impacted after a loss?” I started.

    “It puts things in perspective,” Tebow said. “God is still God. I still have a relationship with Christ, and a loss doesn’t change anything. Win or lose, everything is still the same. What matters is the girl I’m about to see, Kelly Faughnan. If I can inspire hope in someone, then it’s still a good day.”

    And just like that, with a transition smooth enough to make a movie producer proud, Tebow crossed through the threshold of a doorway to the glowing face of a 22-year-old survivor of a brain tumor. After one question, the interview was over. A more important priority awaited him.

    It will do nothing, however, to change the course of the conversation as it pertains to his religious faith. Tebow still thanked God to begin his news conference on Sunday. He still pointed to the sky after his first touchdown. He still took a knee after the loss for a postgame prayer with players from both teams.

    After all, “God is still God.” And this platform, the one that Tebow has turned into something bigger than sports has seen in decades, will continue to allow him to express his faith whether you agree with him or not.”

    From Tebow’s Day Not Ruined by High Profile Loss to Patriots.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Excerpts from a Denver Bronco Sports Beat Writer: “We walked toward the exit — among the last to leave the locker room after a 41-23 loss to the Patriots on Sunday — as I began to ask the first of what I hoped would be a series of questions.

    “How is the strength of your faith impacted after a loss?” I started.

    “It puts things in perspective,” Tebow said. “God is still God. I still have a relationship with Christ, and a loss doesn’t change anything. Win or lose, everything is still the same. What matters is the girl I’m about to see, Kelly Faughnan. If I can inspire hope in someone, then it’s still a good day.”

    And just like that, with a transition smooth enough to make a movie producer proud, Tebow crossed through the threshold of a doorway to the glowing face of a 22-year-old survivor of a brain tumor. After one question, the interview was over. A more important priority awaited him.

    It will do nothing, however, to change the course of the conversation as it pertains to his religious faith. Tebow still thanked God to begin his news conference on Sunday. He still pointed to the sky after his first touchdown. He still took a knee after the loss for a postgame prayer with players from both teams.

    After all, “God is still God.” And this platform, the one that Tebow has turned into something bigger than sports has seen in decades, will continue to allow him to express his faith whether you agree with him or not.”

    From Tebow’s Day Not Ruined by High Profile Loss to Patriots.


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