But why don’t they love us?

Afghanistan has exploded after a number of Korans were burned by U.S. officials at a military detention center.  It seems anti-American messages were scrawled on the covers, so they were “disposed of.”  Ever since word of this came out, Afghans have been rioting, killing NATO personnel, and demanding that  the Americans who did this to be tried in an Islamic court.  Meanwhile, the generals and the President himself are falling all over themselves apologizing, as our progress in pacifying the country melts away.

How could anyone in Afghanistan not know what the reaction is going to be from burning a Koran?  When that Florida preacher was considering doing it, Afghan mobs killed 12 people.

I’m not justifying the reaction, but the point is, the cultures just don’t understand each other.  We had better just leave.

Afghan protests over Koran burning spread on second day – The Washington Post.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • James Sarver

    “It seems anti-American messages were scrawled on the covers, so they were “disposed of.”

    So why was the defacing of the Koran with anti-American messages OK with muslims? I guess it is true that I don’t understand the culture.

    Political manipulation, however, trancends culture. I do understand that. The burning and the reaction to it were predictable and we walked right into it as they knew we would.

  • James Sarver

    “It seems anti-American messages were scrawled on the covers, so they were “disposed of.”

    So why was the defacing of the Koran with anti-American messages OK with muslims? I guess it is true that I don’t understand the culture.

    Political manipulation, however, trancends culture. I do understand that. The burning and the reaction to it were predictable and we walked right into it as they knew we would.

  • SKPeterson

    We should have come out and forthrightly said that the policy of the U.S. military in Afghanistan is to burn any Koran that has been defaced and we will not apologize for doing so. If the Afghans don’t like it, they should stop encouraging their fellows to deface Korans.

  • SKPeterson

    We should have come out and forthrightly said that the policy of the U.S. military in Afghanistan is to burn any Koran that has been defaced and we will not apologize for doing so. If the Afghans don’t like it, they should stop encouraging their fellows to deface Korans.

  • Tom Hering

    SK, the burning of a Quran is never okay with Muslims. Not for any reason. So the stance you propose wouldn’t have worked. But then, you weren’t really being serious.

  • Tom Hering

    SK, the burning of a Quran is never okay with Muslims. Not for any reason. So the stance you propose wouldn’t have worked. But then, you weren’t really being serious.

  • WebMonk

    Wait, is Dr. Veith advocating Ron Paul’s position that we ought to get out of Afghanistan? :-)

    Like Dr. Veith, I am primarily boggled at the stupidity of the military in this. They REALLY should have known this would happen. The proper way to dispose of a worn/damaged Quran is to bury it or put it in running water. Burning it is a blatant (and widely recognized) way to further desecrate a Quran.

    If they didn’t feel that those were possibilities, then *why the BLEEP did they burn the Qurans publically?!? Why not have a couple soldiers burn them covertly?!?!?!?!*

    **facepalm**

  • WebMonk

    Wait, is Dr. Veith advocating Ron Paul’s position that we ought to get out of Afghanistan? :-)

    Like Dr. Veith, I am primarily boggled at the stupidity of the military in this. They REALLY should have known this would happen. The proper way to dispose of a worn/damaged Quran is to bury it or put it in running water. Burning it is a blatant (and widely recognized) way to further desecrate a Quran.

    If they didn’t feel that those were possibilities, then *why the BLEEP did they burn the Qurans publically?!? Why not have a couple soldiers burn them covertly?!?!?!?!*

    **facepalm**

  • WebMonk

    And before anyone jumps on my post above, I tried to reword something and totally screwed it up. It should be “Burning them like trash is a blatant ….”

    Burning is acceptable if necessary and is done with reverence. Burning them with the trash is not.

    Epic fail for somebody in the NATO camp.

  • WebMonk

    And before anyone jumps on my post above, I tried to reword something and totally screwed it up. It should be “Burning them like trash is a blatant ….”

    Burning is acceptable if necessary and is done with reverence. Burning them with the trash is not.

    Epic fail for somebody in the NATO camp.

  • Cincinnatus

    I’m boggled at the stupidity (to use Webmonk’s words) of the military in attempting to appease Muslims at all. This is a war, and this is why nation-building exercises are doomed to failure.

    Afghanistan would have been a much simpler and much more successful war if we had simply used our air forces to devastate the infrastructure and kill as many people as possible–maybe send in a division of infantry or two to shoot the place up–and left within a month. That’s how wars work. The tangible outcomes would have been the same (they would still hate us, there would still be socio-political chaos in our wake, etc.), but in my scenario we actually would have proven some kind of point (we destroy our enemies).

  • Cincinnatus

    I’m boggled at the stupidity (to use Webmonk’s words) of the military in attempting to appease Muslims at all. This is a war, and this is why nation-building exercises are doomed to failure.

    Afghanistan would have been a much simpler and much more successful war if we had simply used our air forces to devastate the infrastructure and kill as many people as possible–maybe send in a division of infantry or two to shoot the place up–and left within a month. That’s how wars work. The tangible outcomes would have been the same (they would still hate us, there would still be socio-political chaos in our wake, etc.), but in my scenario we actually would have proven some kind of point (we destroy our enemies).

  • Tom Hering

    WebMonk, we’re both wrong. Burning is never okay with some Muslims, while burning with reverence is okay with other Muslims. So there is no one position on the issue in Islam. Except that all Muslims probably agree that a used Quran (even a defaced Quran) should never be treated as trash.

  • Tom Hering

    WebMonk, we’re both wrong. Burning is never okay with some Muslims, while burning with reverence is okay with other Muslims. So there is no one position on the issue in Islam. Except that all Muslims probably agree that a used Quran (even a defaced Quran) should never be treated as trash.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Btw, as I understand it, in Islam, the cover of the Koran is considered a separate entity to the book itself. For instance, you are not allowed to sell the Koran, so technically you are buying and selling the cover of the book. Someone may correct me if I’m wrong. Thus the military could have simply recovered the Texts as well.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Btw, as I understand it, in Islam, the cover of the Koran is considered a separate entity to the book itself. For instance, you are not allowed to sell the Koran, so technically you are buying and selling the cover of the book. Someone may correct me if I’m wrong. Thus the military could have simply recovered the Texts as well.

  • Tom Hering

    Klasie @ 8, I’ve read conflicting reports. The messages were written on the covers. The messages were written in the texts. Maybe it was both. We’ll probably never know for sure, as the Qurans are likely in the hands of the Afghan workers who rescued them. Or have been turned over to religious officials. Too late for “crime scene” forensics.

  • Tom Hering

    Klasie @ 8, I’ve read conflicting reports. The messages were written on the covers. The messages were written in the texts. Maybe it was both. We’ll probably never know for sure, as the Qurans are likely in the hands of the Afghan workers who rescued them. Or have been turned over to religious officials. Too late for “crime scene” forensics.

  • Dennis Peskey

    Aren’t we in Afghanistan fighting a war or have we transformed our military into the ecumenical girlscout expeditionary force? The sad reality of this event is the death of two United States servicemen.

    It is well past time to depart this forsaken part of our planet and leave these people to their own folly. I would suggest the U. S. military may consider leaving the stock piles of rifle ammunition in place when they debark as our parting gift to these demonics. Don’t worry – the bullets will all be spent by Easter and the muslims who perish in the endeavor will not have to worry about a koran burning – it will be them burning in hell forever.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    Aren’t we in Afghanistan fighting a war or have we transformed our military into the ecumenical girlscout expeditionary force? The sad reality of this event is the death of two United States servicemen.

    It is well past time to depart this forsaken part of our planet and leave these people to their own folly. I would suggest the U. S. military may consider leaving the stock piles of rifle ammunition in place when they debark as our parting gift to these demonics. Don’t worry – the bullets will all be spent by Easter and the muslims who perish in the endeavor will not have to worry about a koran burning – it will be them burning in hell forever.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • George

    Either leave, or start sending colonists and a governor, preferably with a name like “Gaius” or “Tiberius.”

  • George

    Either leave, or start sending colonists and a governor, preferably with a name like “Gaius” or “Tiberius.”

  • WebMonk

    If conflicts were purely military exercises, then I might have some pragmatic sympathy for views that support the position of “we’re in a war, so who gives a flying flip about enraging the populace with our actions.”

    However, conflicts are virtually never purely military exercises, and so that sort of view is horribly blind and rather stupid.

    Any conflict has a multitude of fronts involved with winning, only some of which are the military tactics and strategies. You can’t just say “screw them, we’ll do whatever we want regardless of their reactions because we’re in a conflict”. If you do that, you’ve just lost those aspects of the conflict.

    If you lose enough of those aspects, then pretty soon military tactics and strategies are fundamentally incapable of achieving a victory.

    THAT is why it is important to “appease Muslims” in Afghanistan when possible, and why it is extremely important to at least avoid needlessly provoking them unless it is unavoidable. This burning of the Qurans fails by every possible consideration.

  • WebMonk

    If conflicts were purely military exercises, then I might have some pragmatic sympathy for views that support the position of “we’re in a war, so who gives a flying flip about enraging the populace with our actions.”

    However, conflicts are virtually never purely military exercises, and so that sort of view is horribly blind and rather stupid.

    Any conflict has a multitude of fronts involved with winning, only some of which are the military tactics and strategies. You can’t just say “screw them, we’ll do whatever we want regardless of their reactions because we’re in a conflict”. If you do that, you’ve just lost those aspects of the conflict.

    If you lose enough of those aspects, then pretty soon military tactics and strategies are fundamentally incapable of achieving a victory.

    THAT is why it is important to “appease Muslims” in Afghanistan when possible, and why it is extremely important to at least avoid needlessly provoking them unless it is unavoidable. This burning of the Qurans fails by every possible consideration.

  • WebMonk

    Dennis, you’re a despicable piece of excrement, and I don’t mean that in the general sense that we are all sinners.

    Yes, I realize this post will be removed. It still needs to be said.

  • WebMonk

    Dennis, you’re a despicable piece of excrement, and I don’t mean that in the general sense that we are all sinners.

    Yes, I realize this post will be removed. It still needs to be said.

  • Cincinnatus

    WebMonk,

    With all due respect–the kind you’re not willing to extend to Dennis, who actually makes a fairly decent point ‘neath all the bluster–you’ve missed a crucial thesis in my argument. Namely, what has a decade of “winning hearts,” hand-wringing, and scrupulous political correctness gained for us? Nothing. In a few months, we’ll be leaving Afghanistan in no better shape than we would had we just bombed out the place and been done with it 10 years ago. Moreover, in the latter scenario, we could ascribe to ourselves a victory. As it is, we’ll be leaving with our tail ever-so-slightly between our legs, with an ambiguous defeat on our record–or, at the very least, certainly not a victory. Again, even though the effective results are identical: Afghanistan in ruins.

    All your stuff and nonsense about appeasing the populace, etc., is only relevant if you think democracy promotion and nation-building in the wastes of Central Asia is a viable endeavor. I don’t, and neither should any thinking conservative. War is war. We could have proven our point simply and cheaply if we had been willing, as other warring powers always are, to bracket our humanitarian obsessions and simply completed the job.

  • Cincinnatus

    WebMonk,

    With all due respect–the kind you’re not willing to extend to Dennis, who actually makes a fairly decent point ‘neath all the bluster–you’ve missed a crucial thesis in my argument. Namely, what has a decade of “winning hearts,” hand-wringing, and scrupulous political correctness gained for us? Nothing. In a few months, we’ll be leaving Afghanistan in no better shape than we would had we just bombed out the place and been done with it 10 years ago. Moreover, in the latter scenario, we could ascribe to ourselves a victory. As it is, we’ll be leaving with our tail ever-so-slightly between our legs, with an ambiguous defeat on our record–or, at the very least, certainly not a victory. Again, even though the effective results are identical: Afghanistan in ruins.

    All your stuff and nonsense about appeasing the populace, etc., is only relevant if you think democracy promotion and nation-building in the wastes of Central Asia is a viable endeavor. I don’t, and neither should any thinking conservative. War is war. We could have proven our point simply and cheaply if we had been willing, as other warring powers always are, to bracket our humanitarian obsessions and simply completed the job.

  • WebMonk

    Cinn, our statement wasn’t a hate-filled wish for people to die and go to hell, so you’re still lightyears above Dennis. :-)

    “Namely, what has a decade of “winning hearts,” hand-wringing, and scrupulous political correctness gained for us? Nothing. In a few months, we’ll be leaving Afghanistan in no better shape than we would had we just bombed out the place and been done with it 10 years ago.”

    I’ll ascribe that bit of nonsense to you just not having thought it through. If you seriously believe that, I’ll be glad to show it for nonsense, but I would have thought it was so obviously false that it didn’t really need to be shown false.

  • WebMonk

    Cinn, our statement wasn’t a hate-filled wish for people to die and go to hell, so you’re still lightyears above Dennis. :-)

    “Namely, what has a decade of “winning hearts,” hand-wringing, and scrupulous political correctness gained for us? Nothing. In a few months, we’ll be leaving Afghanistan in no better shape than we would had we just bombed out the place and been done with it 10 years ago.”

    I’ll ascribe that bit of nonsense to you just not having thought it through. If you seriously believe that, I’ll be glad to show it for nonsense, but I would have thought it was so obviously false that it didn’t really need to be shown false.

  • WebMonk

    Sheesh, my typing and editing skills this morning are horrid! That should have started off as “Cinn,your statement….”

  • WebMonk

    Sheesh, my typing and editing skills this morning are horrid! That should have started off as “Cinn,your statement….”

  • Cincinnatus

    Webmonk:

    How is it “obviously false” and self-evidently nonsense? Even commanders on the ground, when they’re not smiling for the press, are deeply pessimistic about Afghanistan’s future in terms of stability, pro-America sentiment, and democratic governance. It’s a sure thing that Afghanistan is on the brink of chaos, and will tip over as soon as we leave, if not earlier–a claim so obviously true that it doesn’t really need to be shown true.

    Let’s be blunt: our involvement in Afghanistan (originally justified) was about exacting vengeance and eliminating a regime that was a demonstrable threat to American lives and property. At the very latest, the war should have ended with the death of Osama bin Laden, but probably much earlier–as in, after a few months of shock and awe. What are we doing there? What have we been doing there for over a decade? The mission itself has been lost in the fog of war. If we’re trying to eliminate the possibility of anti-American terrorism in the region, state-sponsored or otherwise, the mission is literally interminable and thus is no mission at all. If the mission is to construct a stable, pro-American democracy in the region, then the mission is impossible and, again, thus no mission at all.

    Obviously, bombing the hell out of the place and leaving would have left Afghanistan in chaos. But a decade of nation-building and populace-pleasing is going to leave Afghanistan in exactly the same condition. So what’s the point? What did we gain? Again, at least the former course of action could be labeled a victory.

  • Cincinnatus

    Webmonk:

    How is it “obviously false” and self-evidently nonsense? Even commanders on the ground, when they’re not smiling for the press, are deeply pessimistic about Afghanistan’s future in terms of stability, pro-America sentiment, and democratic governance. It’s a sure thing that Afghanistan is on the brink of chaos, and will tip over as soon as we leave, if not earlier–a claim so obviously true that it doesn’t really need to be shown true.

    Let’s be blunt: our involvement in Afghanistan (originally justified) was about exacting vengeance and eliminating a regime that was a demonstrable threat to American lives and property. At the very latest, the war should have ended with the death of Osama bin Laden, but probably much earlier–as in, after a few months of shock and awe. What are we doing there? What have we been doing there for over a decade? The mission itself has been lost in the fog of war. If we’re trying to eliminate the possibility of anti-American terrorism in the region, state-sponsored or otherwise, the mission is literally interminable and thus is no mission at all. If the mission is to construct a stable, pro-American democracy in the region, then the mission is impossible and, again, thus no mission at all.

    Obviously, bombing the hell out of the place and leaving would have left Afghanistan in chaos. But a decade of nation-building and populace-pleasing is going to leave Afghanistan in exactly the same condition. So what’s the point? What did we gain? Again, at least the former course of action could be labeled a victory.

  • Jon

    A classic FUBAR. So they consult the local mufti and get his blessing to burn the books, which he agrees are defaced and need proper disposal by burning. Problem solved. Everyone’s happy. Yay team–we got this culture thing down! Then Captain Schmertz orders SSG Snuffy to go take care of the burning process. So, Snuffy loads the boxes into the pickup truck, and, being the resourceful NCO that he is, and not wanting to risk missing chow time at the DFAC (it’s Thursday Asian night!), he gets the bright idea to drop the boxes off at the base’s garbage incineration plant, which just happens to be on the route to the DFAC–perfect. Only, the incinerator is manned by Afghan “contractors.” And, by the way, 95% of Afghans are illiterate. The “contractors” see the books as they get loaded in the incinerator–which they can’t read even if they wanted to, and so they wouldn’t know if they were “defaced” or not, but which look like perfectly good Korans as far as they can tell. And there you go–the Friday sermons start firing up. How much good do you think it would do to try to explain to this illiterate population, who hang on every firey word spewing out of their imam’s mouth, that we did nothing wrong? I dare say, who would consider an act of reverence if it ended up in the garbage incinerator? We don’t do our flags that way. And remember all the uproar and heat the Air Force took recently over our war dead cremains making their way into the garbage dump? What started out with good intentions got mis-applied. For that, we should apologize and give the mea culpa.

  • Jon

    A classic FUBAR. So they consult the local mufti and get his blessing to burn the books, which he agrees are defaced and need proper disposal by burning. Problem solved. Everyone’s happy. Yay team–we got this culture thing down! Then Captain Schmertz orders SSG Snuffy to go take care of the burning process. So, Snuffy loads the boxes into the pickup truck, and, being the resourceful NCO that he is, and not wanting to risk missing chow time at the DFAC (it’s Thursday Asian night!), he gets the bright idea to drop the boxes off at the base’s garbage incineration plant, which just happens to be on the route to the DFAC–perfect. Only, the incinerator is manned by Afghan “contractors.” And, by the way, 95% of Afghans are illiterate. The “contractors” see the books as they get loaded in the incinerator–which they can’t read even if they wanted to, and so they wouldn’t know if they were “defaced” or not, but which look like perfectly good Korans as far as they can tell. And there you go–the Friday sermons start firing up. How much good do you think it would do to try to explain to this illiterate population, who hang on every firey word spewing out of their imam’s mouth, that we did nothing wrong? I dare say, who would consider an act of reverence if it ended up in the garbage incinerator? We don’t do our flags that way. And remember all the uproar and heat the Air Force took recently over our war dead cremains making their way into the garbage dump? What started out with good intentions got mis-applied. For that, we should apologize and give the mea culpa.

  • Joe

    Actually Jon – I think the Afghan contractors found some partially burned Korans while emptying the furnaces post burning.

    Cinncy – I hear what you are saying and I think you are correct. i don’t like that you are correct, but the fact that I don’t like does not make it false.

    Joe

  • Joe

    Actually Jon – I think the Afghan contractors found some partially burned Korans while emptying the furnaces post burning.

    Cinncy – I hear what you are saying and I think you are correct. i don’t like that you are correct, but the fact that I don’t like does not make it false.

    Joe

  • Cincinnatus

    Joe@19: Of course. I’m not celebrating any of what I’ve said, but it is what it is, and war is war. Our Wilsonian/neoconservative progressive approach to war will be our own death.

    I also don’t revel in the thought of bombing various primitive countries to the stone age, but if we’re going to have a war, we need to recognize what war is and what it is for.

  • Cincinnatus

    Joe@19: Of course. I’m not celebrating any of what I’ve said, but it is what it is, and war is war. Our Wilsonian/neoconservative progressive approach to war will be our own death.

    I also don’t revel in the thought of bombing various primitive countries to the stone age, but if we’re going to have a war, we need to recognize what war is and what it is for.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    As to Webmonk’s reply to DP: Ditto.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    As to Webmonk’s reply to DP: Ditto.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And further to my comment in #21. Ignorant dumbasses like that are the very cause of the bloodshed we have, be they Christian, or Muslim, or atheist. Christ died for those people too.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And further to my comment in #21. Ignorant dumbasses like that are the very cause of the bloodshed we have, be they Christian, or Muslim, or atheist. Christ died for those people too.

  • WebMonk

    Cinn, what you originally said in 14 was that you thought we would be better off if we had just bombed Afghanistan and left. That’s a hell of a difference from what you say in 17. (at least up to the last paragraph)

    Had we just bombed/razed and left, then the Taliban would still have been standing strong, they would be claiming victory, and the Taliban would have strengthened their grip in Afghanistan and Pakistan, leaving both countries even stronger bastions for terrorists to use to launch further attacks.

    What we have now is a mess, no argument, but it’s a mess that is not a terrorist-run state, and it’s a (poorly) functioning state that shows plenty of evidence of continuing to suppress terrorism even after we leave. That is a phenomenally better position for us than a strengthened Taliban ruling Afghanistan and cranking out terrorists en-mass, unimpeded.

    There are a lot of things that can be/should have been done better about the Afghan war, but reducing things to a binary option of bomb-them-to-slag or bow-to-their-every-whim is a ridiculous simplification.

    Just because we have done some building/appeasement and the country hasn’t turned out perfect doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have done any at all.

  • WebMonk

    Cinn, what you originally said in 14 was that you thought we would be better off if we had just bombed Afghanistan and left. That’s a hell of a difference from what you say in 17. (at least up to the last paragraph)

    Had we just bombed/razed and left, then the Taliban would still have been standing strong, they would be claiming victory, and the Taliban would have strengthened their grip in Afghanistan and Pakistan, leaving both countries even stronger bastions for terrorists to use to launch further attacks.

    What we have now is a mess, no argument, but it’s a mess that is not a terrorist-run state, and it’s a (poorly) functioning state that shows plenty of evidence of continuing to suppress terrorism even after we leave. That is a phenomenally better position for us than a strengthened Taliban ruling Afghanistan and cranking out terrorists en-mass, unimpeded.

    There are a lot of things that can be/should have been done better about the Afghan war, but reducing things to a binary option of bomb-them-to-slag or bow-to-their-every-whim is a ridiculous simplification.

    Just because we have done some building/appeasement and the country hasn’t turned out perfect doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have done any at all.

  • kerner

    It helps to understand a strategic definition of victory. It is not : have we killed the most people?

    You have achieved victory over the enemy when you get what you wanted and the enemy has given up and stops fighting you.

    In Vietnam we killed about 1 million of the enemy, and they killed about 56K of us. But they got what they wanted and we gave up and stopped fighting them. Ergo, they won.

    Just killing a lot of Afghans neither gets us anything we want nor does it get the enemy to give up and stop fighting. Therefore it would not acheive victory in any real sense.

    Doing what we are now doing may not acheive victory either. But it MIGHT achieve a partial victory in the sense that we would have gotten some of what we wanted and the enemy, while not having given up completely, may have been substantially hindered in his ability to fight us. Ultimately, it may be a step toward a point at which the enemy does in fact give up and stop fighting us.

    In our wars with militant muslims, we have been willing to settle for these kinds of partial victories, because, for humanitarian reasons, we have been unwilling to kill the really huge numbers of people (including civilians, children, etc.) that would be necessary to do that. Our leaders would, simply, rather spend money and lose American lives than have that kind of blood on our hands. At least, that is our position now.

    Whether Afghanistan is the kind of partial victory that gets us to a goal we can accept remains to be seen.

  • kerner

    It helps to understand a strategic definition of victory. It is not : have we killed the most people?

    You have achieved victory over the enemy when you get what you wanted and the enemy has given up and stops fighting you.

    In Vietnam we killed about 1 million of the enemy, and they killed about 56K of us. But they got what they wanted and we gave up and stopped fighting them. Ergo, they won.

    Just killing a lot of Afghans neither gets us anything we want nor does it get the enemy to give up and stop fighting. Therefore it would not acheive victory in any real sense.

    Doing what we are now doing may not acheive victory either. But it MIGHT achieve a partial victory in the sense that we would have gotten some of what we wanted and the enemy, while not having given up completely, may have been substantially hindered in his ability to fight us. Ultimately, it may be a step toward a point at which the enemy does in fact give up and stop fighting us.

    In our wars with militant muslims, we have been willing to settle for these kinds of partial victories, because, for humanitarian reasons, we have been unwilling to kill the really huge numbers of people (including civilians, children, etc.) that would be necessary to do that. Our leaders would, simply, rather spend money and lose American lives than have that kind of blood on our hands. At least, that is our position now.

    Whether Afghanistan is the kind of partial victory that gets us to a goal we can accept remains to be seen.

  • WebMonk

    right on kerner

  • WebMonk

    right on kerner

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    The really ironical thing is that the relationship, diplomatically speaking, between the Arab world, and the West, is now better than it has been in quite some time – witness today’s summit on Syria. And since Hamas lost Syrian, and thus indirectly Iranian support, even they are trying a slightly less confrontational approach. Of course this is an imperfect picture, but it is certainly not the picture of some years ago.

    Therefore the confrontational, and naieve crap proposed by some is particularly ignorant and unnecessary.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    The really ironical thing is that the relationship, diplomatically speaking, between the Arab world, and the West, is now better than it has been in quite some time – witness today’s summit on Syria. And since Hamas lost Syrian, and thus indirectly Iranian support, even they are trying a slightly less confrontational approach. Of course this is an imperfect picture, but it is certainly not the picture of some years ago.

    Therefore the confrontational, and naieve crap proposed by some is particularly ignorant and unnecessary.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    Surah 4:157-158 states: “That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.”

    Since the Koran portrays our Lord and Savior as a deceiver, should we not be offended whenever a Koran is not burned? Should not all of Islam respect my culture and religion, (which antedates theirs, by the way)? Muslims are thus offended by Rushdie’s Satanic Verses; by the same reasoning, I should be offended by each and every unburned copy of the Koran.
    And if you don’t agree with what I’ve just written, then you are completely insensitive to my deeply held beliefs and you should be ashamed, and excluded from respectable company.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    Surah 4:157-158 states: “That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’—but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not—nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself.”

    Since the Koran portrays our Lord and Savior as a deceiver, should we not be offended whenever a Koran is not burned? Should not all of Islam respect my culture and religion, (which antedates theirs, by the way)? Muslims are thus offended by Rushdie’s Satanic Verses; by the same reasoning, I should be offended by each and every unburned copy of the Koran.
    And if you don’t agree with what I’ve just written, then you are completely insensitive to my deeply held beliefs and you should be ashamed, and excluded from respectable company.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Past Spomer, pardon me, but those are foolish words. When Paul came to Athens, did he immediately start smashing idols? No – he found a religious item, an altar, with which he could gain access to them. And from his perspective, Athenian idolatory was certainly offensive. Ignorant foolish words like yours will only send the world up in flames. And I’m sorry if you think then that people like me are not resepectable. That is fine. Christianity has never championed itself as the religion of the respectable part of society. Christ associated with all. It was the Pharisees and Sadducees who held their noses in the air.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Past Spomer, pardon me, but those are foolish words. When Paul came to Athens, did he immediately start smashing idols? No – he found a religious item, an altar, with which he could gain access to them. And from his perspective, Athenian idolatory was certainly offensive. Ignorant foolish words like yours will only send the world up in flames. And I’m sorry if you think then that people like me are not resepectable. That is fine. Christianity has never championed itself as the religion of the respectable part of society. Christ associated with all. It was the Pharisees and Sadducees who held their noses in the air.

  • Cincinnatus

    Pardon me, but the American military, contrary to its own self-image, is not a missionary organization. It’s job is to deal death.

    Please explain to me how kerner is “right on,” then. I know I’m being simplistically blunt in this discussion, but “killing a lot of Afghans” actually would accomplish just as much as our decade-long excursion in the mountains if said killing involved destroying al-Qaeda as a viable organization. That problem was solved ages ago. We should have been gone years ago.

    By the way, learn the distinction between al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The former is an international, expansionist militant/terrorist organization with no territory and no state apparatus. It could have been and should have been dealt with via police action and special forces engagements. The Taliban is a localized militant political organization with, at most, regional ambitions.

  • Cincinnatus

    Pardon me, but the American military, contrary to its own self-image, is not a missionary organization. It’s job is to deal death.

    Please explain to me how kerner is “right on,” then. I know I’m being simplistically blunt in this discussion, but “killing a lot of Afghans” actually would accomplish just as much as our decade-long excursion in the mountains if said killing involved destroying al-Qaeda as a viable organization. That problem was solved ages ago. We should have been gone years ago.

    By the way, learn the distinction between al-Qaeda and the Taliban. The former is an international, expansionist militant/terrorist organization with no territory and no state apparatus. It could have been and should have been dealt with via police action and special forces engagements. The Taliban is a localized militant political organization with, at most, regional ambitions.

  • Cincinnatus

    ITS job*

  • Cincinnatus

    ITS job*

  • Cincinnatus

    KK@28: What?! What exactly is your temporal frame of reference here? The Middle East (and Central Asia, etc.) still hates the West–at least the United States–and such sentiment is only increasing as Islamist forces consolidate power in Tunisia, Egypt, and other post-Arab Spring nations. Why, only yesterday Muslims were proudly burning Obama effigies.

    I ask for a temporal window because, prior to 1960, the United States was the single most popular country in the Middle East. So what’s your standard of comparison here?

  • Cincinnatus

    KK@28: What?! What exactly is your temporal frame of reference here? The Middle East (and Central Asia, etc.) still hates the West–at least the United States–and such sentiment is only increasing as Islamist forces consolidate power in Tunisia, Egypt, and other post-Arab Spring nations. Why, only yesterday Muslims were proudly burning Obama effigies.

    I ask for a temporal window because, prior to 1960, the United States was the single most popular country in the Middle East. So what’s your standard of comparison here?

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    Klasie,
    Thank you for the reply. You are correct about Paul’s actions, but that’s not the point. I am attempting two things. The first is to expose the imbalance of treatment between the ruling class’s regard of Muslim sensitivities and Christian sensitivities. (recall that Andres Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ got a government subsidy and acclaim by Serrano’s peers.) The second is to illustrate how we have each created an internal censor, by implanting Islamic sensitivities in our thinking. No one takes offence at the burning of Mien Kampf.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    Klasie,
    Thank you for the reply. You are correct about Paul’s actions, but that’s not the point. I am attempting two things. The first is to expose the imbalance of treatment between the ruling class’s regard of Muslim sensitivities and Christian sensitivities. (recall that Andres Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ got a government subsidy and acclaim by Serrano’s peers.) The second is to illustrate how we have each created an internal censor, by implanting Islamic sensitivities in our thinking. No one takes offence at the burning of Mien Kampf.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus @ 31: Note that I said diplomatically. In 2 recent events there was/is considerable diplomatic co-operation between the Arab league, and the West (not just the US acting unilaterally, and this is NB): Libya, and now Syria. And especially in the later case, it happened in the face of a traditional Arab League ally, Russia. Also, the Western military posturing against Iran would be entirely impossible without considerable diplomatic support from the Governments in the Gulf.

    Now there are some populist anti-Western, and especially anti-American movements, no doubt. And there are strong anti-American feelings in Afghanistan (for obvious reasons), and Pakistan (a non-Arab state, and, in my mind, a much more dangerous proposition than Iran).

    But you should not take your information about Moslem/Arab-Western relations, and especially US-Moslem relations, from the Warmongering Rightwing, who have a special interest in keep the Military-Industrial Complex going. I’ve often noticed the supression of good news stories in certain quarters. Read a bit more widely, will you?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus @ 31: Note that I said diplomatically. In 2 recent events there was/is considerable diplomatic co-operation between the Arab league, and the West (not just the US acting unilaterally, and this is NB): Libya, and now Syria. And especially in the later case, it happened in the face of a traditional Arab League ally, Russia. Also, the Western military posturing against Iran would be entirely impossible without considerable diplomatic support from the Governments in the Gulf.

    Now there are some populist anti-Western, and especially anti-American movements, no doubt. And there are strong anti-American feelings in Afghanistan (for obvious reasons), and Pakistan (a non-Arab state, and, in my mind, a much more dangerous proposition than Iran).

    But you should not take your information about Moslem/Arab-Western relations, and especially US-Moslem relations, from the Warmongering Rightwing, who have a special interest in keep the Military-Industrial Complex going. I’ve often noticed the supression of good news stories in certain quarters. Read a bit more widely, will you?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Past Spomer – then do you want them to treat Christians like trigger happy fundamentalist terrorist-types? And by that I’m not implying that all Moslems are such, but that there is currently a strong subgroup of violent Moselms out there.

    I fail to see the object of the exercise.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Past Spomer – then do you want them to treat Christians like trigger happy fundamentalist terrorist-types? And by that I’m not implying that all Moslems are such, but that there is currently a strong subgroup of violent Moselms out there.

    I fail to see the object of the exercise.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus – the argument was that the Taliban would provide shelter for al-Qaeda, and Afghanistan having such inhospitable terrain, it would be better to have a permanent friendly government there. C’mon, it ain’t rocket science. Whether the idea was workable, or whether it was implimented correctly, is another question. Of course, the question people always fail to ask is why the existence of al-Qaeda in the first place – if it is a symptom, what is the cause? But that is complicated…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus – the argument was that the Taliban would provide shelter for al-Qaeda, and Afghanistan having such inhospitable terrain, it would be better to have a permanent friendly government there. C’mon, it ain’t rocket science. Whether the idea was workable, or whether it was implimented correctly, is another question. Of course, the question people always fail to ask is why the existence of al-Qaeda in the first place – if it is a symptom, what is the cause? But that is complicated…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Also Cincinnatus, as a historian, you should know better than to say that Armies are only there for the killing part of things. From Roman times they have been there not only to win the war, but also to win the peace thereafter. They organize reconstruction, set the country, or the newly acquired territory, etc., on a path of stable government, appoint people, create civil order, get things going again etc etc. IOW, they create a transition to civil rule, be it new independance, or self-rule, or colonial rule, or whatever the case was. The come, destroy and bugger off idea you have belong to Barbary Pirates and Third World Warlords.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Also Cincinnatus, as a historian, you should know better than to say that Armies are only there for the killing part of things. From Roman times they have been there not only to win the war, but also to win the peace thereafter. They organize reconstruction, set the country, or the newly acquired territory, etc., on a path of stable government, appoint people, create civil order, get things going again etc etc. IOW, they create a transition to civil rule, be it new independance, or self-rule, or colonial rule, or whatever the case was. The come, destroy and bugger off idea you have belong to Barbary Pirates and Third World Warlords.

  • WebMonk

    Klasie @35 stated why I used “Taliban” vs “al quaida”. They worked extremely closely in Afghanistan, and essentially anything that left the Taliban in place would leave a strong and supportive structure from which Al Qaida could operate.

    For another instance of where an army lost because all it did was “kill stuff”, you can look at WWII. The Soviet populace despised the ruling powers, and were initially glad to help out the invading Germans. However, the Germans rolled over them, killing civilians without pause, raiding and taking what they wanted. The pro-German feeling evaporated quickly, and the long supply lines which the Germans needed to protect began to suffer all sorts of problems because the populace was not telling them of the local forces which harassed the lines. There were even a few instances where the civilians took it upon themselves to sabotage the German lines.

    It is extremely likely that if the German army had spent even the tiniest bit of effort at “appeasement” with the Soviet populace, they would have been able to keep their speed up, rolled past/around/over the Soviet army and threatened/reached Moscow, resulting in a peace treaty. But, because they neglected “appeasement” they were slowed down and ultimately bogged down in Stalingrad.

    Throughout history, armies have done FAR more than just “kill stuff” in wars. That’s certainly their primary purpose, but their secondary purposes are a major component as well. The same is true of our military as well.

    We can argue that they are doing a poor job in Afghanistan, or that politicians are getting in the way, or something like that, but that’s a wildly different thing than the ludicrous idea that they should not be doing any ally-building at all.

  • WebMonk

    Klasie @35 stated why I used “Taliban” vs “al quaida”. They worked extremely closely in Afghanistan, and essentially anything that left the Taliban in place would leave a strong and supportive structure from which Al Qaida could operate.

    For another instance of where an army lost because all it did was “kill stuff”, you can look at WWII. The Soviet populace despised the ruling powers, and were initially glad to help out the invading Germans. However, the Germans rolled over them, killing civilians without pause, raiding and taking what they wanted. The pro-German feeling evaporated quickly, and the long supply lines which the Germans needed to protect began to suffer all sorts of problems because the populace was not telling them of the local forces which harassed the lines. There were even a few instances where the civilians took it upon themselves to sabotage the German lines.

    It is extremely likely that if the German army had spent even the tiniest bit of effort at “appeasement” with the Soviet populace, they would have been able to keep their speed up, rolled past/around/over the Soviet army and threatened/reached Moscow, resulting in a peace treaty. But, because they neglected “appeasement” they were slowed down and ultimately bogged down in Stalingrad.

    Throughout history, armies have done FAR more than just “kill stuff” in wars. That’s certainly their primary purpose, but their secondary purposes are a major component as well. The same is true of our military as well.

    We can argue that they are doing a poor job in Afghanistan, or that politicians are getting in the way, or something like that, but that’s a wildly different thing than the ludicrous idea that they should not be doing any ally-building at all.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    This thread wouldn’t be complete without this classic-

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    This thread wouldn’t be complete without this classic-

  • Patrick Kyle

    As an aside, I have to say that I have a begrudging respect for Islam and their refusal to put up with absolutely the smallest disrespect shown towards their religion. They reserve their harshest reactions for things directed towards what they consider most important, and in return command the fear and respect of even their most ardent enemies. It keeps things pretty clear on their end. Also shows why we are bound to lose any clash between our two cultures.

  • Patrick Kyle

    As an aside, I have to say that I have a begrudging respect for Islam and their refusal to put up with absolutely the smallest disrespect shown towards their religion. They reserve their harshest reactions for things directed towards what they consider most important, and in return command the fear and respect of even their most ardent enemies. It keeps things pretty clear on their end. Also shows why we are bound to lose any clash between our two cultures.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    “Also shows why we are bound to lose any clash between our two cultures.”
    Well, I guess that just about wraps things up for Christianity. Wouldn’t seem so bad if I didn’t have kids.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    “Also shows why we are bound to lose any clash between our two cultures.”
    Well, I guess that just about wraps things up for Christianity. Wouldn’t seem so bad if I didn’t have kids.

  • Helen K.

    following…

  • Helen K.

    following…

  • Tom Hering

    Re: @ 39. New Afghani bumper sticker: “They love us for our unfreedom.”

  • Tom Hering

    Re: @ 39. New Afghani bumper sticker: “They love us for our unfreedom.”

  • Michael B.

    Dennis wrote: “I would suggest the U. S. military may consider leaving the stock piles of rifle ammunition in place when they debark as our parting gift to these demonics. Don’t worry – the bullets will all be spent by Easter and the muslims who perish in the endeavor will not have to worry about a koran burning – it will be them burning in hell forever.”

    Well, unless the Koran is right. The Koran explicitly says that those who believe that Jesus is the son of God will burn in hell.

  • Michael B.

    Dennis wrote: “I would suggest the U. S. military may consider leaving the stock piles of rifle ammunition in place when they debark as our parting gift to these demonics. Don’t worry – the bullets will all be spent by Easter and the muslims who perish in the endeavor will not have to worry about a koran burning – it will be them burning in hell forever.”

    Well, unless the Koran is right. The Koran explicitly says that those who believe that Jesus is the son of God will burn in hell.

  • Dennis Peskey

    Well, apparently there is two people who do not share my views of the current situation in Afghanistan. A brief note of clarification is in order; it was not I who came up with the idea of Hell or the quickest directions to this resort location (that would be the place of last resort). God prepared Hell for the disobedient angels – but for those humans who insist on denying him (that would be the true God) – well, you just bought yourself a oneway ticket to the eternal fire (I read that in a book once – or twice – or more). If your of the opinion that muslims who die go anywhere else – well, your reading the wrong blog. While you’re at it, you not only got the wrong blog – you got the wrong God. Good luck with that one but calling me names doesn’t change one word which Christ spoke about Hell and that’s exactly where these muslims are headed.

    Or perhaps it was the stockpiling of rifle ammunition which gave offense. Well, how about a short history lesson in Afghan survival – he who has the most ammo wins. Your foolishness about nation building means less than the phrase Webmonk used to describe me in post #13. These boys didn’t earn the title warlords by helping little old ladies across the street. What these boys do understand (much better than some blog posters) is the United States will provide virtually unlimited amounts of good ammo if you’re willing to fight whoever is our enemy this week. We taught them that during the Russian attempted occupation of Afghanistan. (PS – KK #35 – that’s where we armed and trained al-Queda, including Osama Bin Laden – remember him?)

    Seems some of those stinger missiles, produced in American and provided to the taliban, apparently weren’t used against Russian Hine helicopters. It’s the old fifty-fifty rule; you give me twenty bullets, I load ten, I store ten, I shoot one and report twenty killed. Now we gave up one body counts after Vietnam so one dead Russian or twenty mattered little – so long as they were dead Russians. These same warlords have been stockpiling for the past ten years (they know better than anyone the gravytrain will end – the trick is to have the largest stockpile when the U. S. finally tucks tail and leaves). So, the reality is a one month’s supply (ok, only thirty eight days left in lent) really is small change when compared to a ten year stockpile. Personally, I’m betting on the warlords.

    Klasie – you gotta tell me whose history books you’ve been reading. Certainly wasn’t Tascitus or Josephus or the Maccabees or the Bible. It was the Herodians who begged the Romans to intervene in Israel against the Greeks. Have you ever wondered why Herod was so loved by his fellow Jews (at least Herod’s jewish half that is)? I think this fulfills your description of post #22 (less than bright lower half to paraphrase). When you invite the devil to lunch, don’t be surprise when the meal is burnt crispy (in Vietnam, we called ‘em crispy critters – it’s a smell you don’t forget).

    Newsflash – War is Hell! Unless you subscribe to friends, flowers and hugs (this might upset you further but I wouldn’t waste a good bullet on an enemy following this strategy – that’s why they issued us bayonets). You have the audacity to think you’ll succeed where Alexander the Great didn’t even bother. At least Marco Polo had a sufficient grasp of reality to bring a large quantity of bribes which ensured safe passage through the Khyber Pass. Does the word hubris mean anything to those who propose such foolishness. Look, if you want to cry “missional – these are God’s children too”, well, tell that to Noah. Better yet, grab your Bible and catch the first flight to Kabul. Go find out how receptive your friendly muslim neighbors are to the good news. I still recall how offended I was as a Christian when working for our government, we were told we couldn’t send Bibles to our servicemen lest we “offend” our Afghan allies. We didn’t go into this forsaken land to proselytize or improve road conditions or establish democratic reforms – we entered Afghanistan to kill Osama Bin Laden. We called this a war against terrorism and that was the sole purpose of the mission.

    As for this current situation, I would like to remind everyone the important issue is two United States servicemen are dead because of muslim “sensitivities”. Apparently, I missed the scheduled classes in sensitivity during Marine bootcamp or perhaps this is a new innovation on how to win a war through the hearts and minds. I do not have empathy for people who follow the father of lies (that would be the devil for those of you biblically illiterate). Far too many Christians have died at the hands of Islam – oh ya, they started jihad long before the crusades. And they haven’t given up the idea yet. So maybe, before you finish your evening prayers and lay down for a good nights sleep, perhaps you’ll consider the U. S. military is populated with service men and women who share my view. We willingly risk our lives to ensure the enemy died for their foolishness before the enemies foolishness killed you. And add a petition for the families of those two servicemen – they don’t get to post on this blog anymore.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    Well, apparently there is two people who do not share my views of the current situation in Afghanistan. A brief note of clarification is in order; it was not I who came up with the idea of Hell or the quickest directions to this resort location (that would be the place of last resort). God prepared Hell for the disobedient angels – but for those humans who insist on denying him (that would be the true God) – well, you just bought yourself a oneway ticket to the eternal fire (I read that in a book once – or twice – or more). If your of the opinion that muslims who die go anywhere else – well, your reading the wrong blog. While you’re at it, you not only got the wrong blog – you got the wrong God. Good luck with that one but calling me names doesn’t change one word which Christ spoke about Hell and that’s exactly where these muslims are headed.

    Or perhaps it was the stockpiling of rifle ammunition which gave offense. Well, how about a short history lesson in Afghan survival – he who has the most ammo wins. Your foolishness about nation building means less than the phrase Webmonk used to describe me in post #13. These boys didn’t earn the title warlords by helping little old ladies across the street. What these boys do understand (much better than some blog posters) is the United States will provide virtually unlimited amounts of good ammo if you’re willing to fight whoever is our enemy this week. We taught them that during the Russian attempted occupation of Afghanistan. (PS – KK #35 – that’s where we armed and trained al-Queda, including Osama Bin Laden – remember him?)

    Seems some of those stinger missiles, produced in American and provided to the taliban, apparently weren’t used against Russian Hine helicopters. It’s the old fifty-fifty rule; you give me twenty bullets, I load ten, I store ten, I shoot one and report twenty killed. Now we gave up one body counts after Vietnam so one dead Russian or twenty mattered little – so long as they were dead Russians. These same warlords have been stockpiling for the past ten years (they know better than anyone the gravytrain will end – the trick is to have the largest stockpile when the U. S. finally tucks tail and leaves). So, the reality is a one month’s supply (ok, only thirty eight days left in lent) really is small change when compared to a ten year stockpile. Personally, I’m betting on the warlords.

    Klasie – you gotta tell me whose history books you’ve been reading. Certainly wasn’t Tascitus or Josephus or the Maccabees or the Bible. It was the Herodians who begged the Romans to intervene in Israel against the Greeks. Have you ever wondered why Herod was so loved by his fellow Jews (at least Herod’s jewish half that is)? I think this fulfills your description of post #22 (less than bright lower half to paraphrase). When you invite the devil to lunch, don’t be surprise when the meal is burnt crispy (in Vietnam, we called ‘em crispy critters – it’s a smell you don’t forget).

    Newsflash – War is Hell! Unless you subscribe to friends, flowers and hugs (this might upset you further but I wouldn’t waste a good bullet on an enemy following this strategy – that’s why they issued us bayonets). You have the audacity to think you’ll succeed where Alexander the Great didn’t even bother. At least Marco Polo had a sufficient grasp of reality to bring a large quantity of bribes which ensured safe passage through the Khyber Pass. Does the word hubris mean anything to those who propose such foolishness. Look, if you want to cry “missional – these are God’s children too”, well, tell that to Noah. Better yet, grab your Bible and catch the first flight to Kabul. Go find out how receptive your friendly muslim neighbors are to the good news. I still recall how offended I was as a Christian when working for our government, we were told we couldn’t send Bibles to our servicemen lest we “offend” our Afghan allies. We didn’t go into this forsaken land to proselytize or improve road conditions or establish democratic reforms – we entered Afghanistan to kill Osama Bin Laden. We called this a war against terrorism and that was the sole purpose of the mission.

    As for this current situation, I would like to remind everyone the important issue is two United States servicemen are dead because of muslim “sensitivities”. Apparently, I missed the scheduled classes in sensitivity during Marine bootcamp or perhaps this is a new innovation on how to win a war through the hearts and minds. I do not have empathy for people who follow the father of lies (that would be the devil for those of you biblically illiterate). Far too many Christians have died at the hands of Islam – oh ya, they started jihad long before the crusades. And they haven’t given up the idea yet. So maybe, before you finish your evening prayers and lay down for a good nights sleep, perhaps you’ll consider the U. S. military is populated with service men and women who share my view. We willingly risk our lives to ensure the enemy died for their foolishness before the enemies foolishness killed you. And add a petition for the families of those two servicemen – they don’t get to post on this blog anymore.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Tom Moeller

    Yep. Dennis is right.

    Thanks Dennis. I always find a better way to phrase hard truths by reading your honest comments.

    Any equivocation on the eternal state of mohammedans is based on liberal claptrap and is unscriptural. Any doubt as to what the likely internal Afghan reaction to a NATO pull out would be is asking for a sand flushing from your ears.

    Military doesn’t do mission work. They are on a mission and if all was set aright, a little Alpha Strike – Devotion to Destruction action would help align attitudes and actually save lives.

  • Tom Moeller

    Yep. Dennis is right.

    Thanks Dennis. I always find a better way to phrase hard truths by reading your honest comments.

    Any equivocation on the eternal state of mohammedans is based on liberal claptrap and is unscriptural. Any doubt as to what the likely internal Afghan reaction to a NATO pull out would be is asking for a sand flushing from your ears.

    Military doesn’t do mission work. They are on a mission and if all was set aright, a little Alpha Strike – Devotion to Destruction action would help align attitudes and actually save lives.

  • formerly just steve

    “How could anyone in Afghanistan not know what the reaction is going to be from burning a Koran?”

    If this question was not intended to be rhetorical, it should have been. Of course nobody would not know the reaction; from those who ordered it to those who carried it out. It was either quite a colossal blunder, or it wasn’t.

  • formerly just steve

    “How could anyone in Afghanistan not know what the reaction is going to be from burning a Koran?”

    If this question was not intended to be rhetorical, it should have been. Of course nobody would not know the reaction; from those who ordered it to those who carried it out. It was either quite a colossal blunder, or it wasn’t.

  • kerner

    This conversation has become emotional, and I hope not to contribute to that. Not that I haven’t gotten emotional myself in the past (I still regret it).

    But look guys, do you really believe that the sole, or even primary, goal of our invasion of Afghanistan was to kill one guy? (Who, incedentally, when we found him was not even there) Really?

    Our primary goal in invading Afghanistan was to deprive Al-Qaeda of its use as a base of operations.

    Our secondary goal (probably) was to use it ourselves as a base of operations to kill Al-Qaeda and its allies and (again probably) for various purposes vis-a-vis Iran.

    Way way WAY down the list of prioities was the emotionally satisfying goal: seek out and kill Osama bin Laden.

    We killed a lot of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, but from what I have read, they are mostly gone; holed up in other countries now. So our secondary purpose is largely served as much as it can be.

    As for our primary purpose, we have deprived Al-Qaeda of the use of Afghanistan as a base of operations temporarily by invading it and occupying it (and: see our secondary purpose). But to deprive them of the use of Afghanistan in the long term we must either: 1) occupy Afghanistan indefinitely, or 2) enlist sufficient native allies to deprive Al Qaeda of the use of Afghanistan for us.

    Since we don’t want to occupy Afghanistan indefinitely, we are going with option 2. It is in pursuit of option 2 that all this “hearts and minds”, improve roads and infrastructure, democratic reforms, arm the warlords, nation building stuff comes in. If the Afghans can be brought to the point of having a stable, hopefully not too corrupt, friendly government, they keep Al-Qaeda out and we go home. Now, option 2 is not, strictly speaking, a military objective, but military force is necessary to achieve it.

    What we are now finding out is that option 2 is a lot more easily said than done. Maybe, as a long term goal, option 2 was a fool’s errand all along. But now that we’ve been in Afghanistan for 10 years (a decade during which we have spent a great deal of money and effort improving our special forces and drone technology), we’ll do the best we can to preserve our short term goal as long as we can and eventually rely on the Afghans (as well as special forces and drones) to maintain our position.

    We can argue all weekend whether this strategy was a good one, but this is what we’ve been doing.

    And by the way, dealing a lot of random death and destruction to large numbers of civilian primitives would not have deprived Al-Qaeda of the use of Afghanistan as a base of operations nor would it even have killed very many Al-Qaeda. It probably wouldn’t even have killed Osama bin Laden. At least, nothing short of true “mass destruction” would not have accomplished that, and we are unwilling to deal true mass destruction.

  • kerner

    This conversation has become emotional, and I hope not to contribute to that. Not that I haven’t gotten emotional myself in the past (I still regret it).

    But look guys, do you really believe that the sole, or even primary, goal of our invasion of Afghanistan was to kill one guy? (Who, incedentally, when we found him was not even there) Really?

    Our primary goal in invading Afghanistan was to deprive Al-Qaeda of its use as a base of operations.

    Our secondary goal (probably) was to use it ourselves as a base of operations to kill Al-Qaeda and its allies and (again probably) for various purposes vis-a-vis Iran.

    Way way WAY down the list of prioities was the emotionally satisfying goal: seek out and kill Osama bin Laden.

    We killed a lot of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, but from what I have read, they are mostly gone; holed up in other countries now. So our secondary purpose is largely served as much as it can be.

    As for our primary purpose, we have deprived Al-Qaeda of the use of Afghanistan as a base of operations temporarily by invading it and occupying it (and: see our secondary purpose). But to deprive them of the use of Afghanistan in the long term we must either: 1) occupy Afghanistan indefinitely, or 2) enlist sufficient native allies to deprive Al Qaeda of the use of Afghanistan for us.

    Since we don’t want to occupy Afghanistan indefinitely, we are going with option 2. It is in pursuit of option 2 that all this “hearts and minds”, improve roads and infrastructure, democratic reforms, arm the warlords, nation building stuff comes in. If the Afghans can be brought to the point of having a stable, hopefully not too corrupt, friendly government, they keep Al-Qaeda out and we go home. Now, option 2 is not, strictly speaking, a military objective, but military force is necessary to achieve it.

    What we are now finding out is that option 2 is a lot more easily said than done. Maybe, as a long term goal, option 2 was a fool’s errand all along. But now that we’ve been in Afghanistan for 10 years (a decade during which we have spent a great deal of money and effort improving our special forces and drone technology), we’ll do the best we can to preserve our short term goal as long as we can and eventually rely on the Afghans (as well as special forces and drones) to maintain our position.

    We can argue all weekend whether this strategy was a good one, but this is what we’ve been doing.

    And by the way, dealing a lot of random death and destruction to large numbers of civilian primitives would not have deprived Al-Qaeda of the use of Afghanistan as a base of operations nor would it even have killed very many Al-Qaeda. It probably wouldn’t even have killed Osama bin Laden. At least, nothing short of true “mass destruction” would not have accomplished that, and we are unwilling to deal true mass destruction.

  • Michael B.

    “If your of the opinion that muslims who die go anywhere else – well, your reading the wrong blog. While you’re at it, you not only got the wrong blog – you got the wrong God. Good luck with that one but calling me names doesn’t change one word which Christ spoke about Hell and that’s exactly where these muslims are headed.”

    Why single out Muslims as the only non-Christian group that will burn in hell? Won’t Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all the other followers of the wrong religions burn in hell forever too? Osama bin Laden and Anne Frank were sinners and both picked the wrong religion. Are they not both burning in hell?

  • Michael B.

    “If your of the opinion that muslims who die go anywhere else – well, your reading the wrong blog. While you’re at it, you not only got the wrong blog – you got the wrong God. Good luck with that one but calling me names doesn’t change one word which Christ spoke about Hell and that’s exactly where these muslims are headed.”

    Why single out Muslims as the only non-Christian group that will burn in hell? Won’t Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all the other followers of the wrong religions burn in hell forever too? Osama bin Laden and Anne Frank were sinners and both picked the wrong religion. Are they not both burning in hell?

  • Dennis Peskey

    “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me.”. Or, for the short answer – yes.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me.”. Or, for the short answer – yes.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • helen

    Has nobody read history… British history?

    What we’re mainly doing now is providing protection so the Chinese can extract Afghan minerals… and sell them to us! Let the Chinese bring in their own army for that. They can probably even gather enough Chinese muslims for it.

    Unbelievers go to hell… one thing that Islam and Christianity agree on!
    Their difference is in Whom to believe.

  • helen

    Has nobody read history… British history?

    What we’re mainly doing now is providing protection so the Chinese can extract Afghan minerals… and sell them to us! Let the Chinese bring in their own army for that. They can probably even gather enough Chinese muslims for it.

    Unbelievers go to hell… one thing that Islam and Christianity agree on!
    Their difference is in Whom to believe.

  • Tom Hering

    The Abu Ghraib photos haven’t been forgotten, nor has Pastor Terry Jones’ burning of the Quran last March. And this latest incident comes on the heels of the urinating Marines video.

    I’m willing to bet that when the investigation is completed, the person responsible for trashing and burning the Qurans just decided one day, “To hell with these Muslim bastards – to hell with this cultural sensitivity crap.” And as a direct result, got four of his fellow American servicemen killed (so far).

  • Tom Hering

    The Abu Ghraib photos haven’t been forgotten, nor has Pastor Terry Jones’ burning of the Quran last March. And this latest incident comes on the heels of the urinating Marines video.

    I’m willing to bet that when the investigation is completed, the person responsible for trashing and burning the Qurans just decided one day, “To hell with these Muslim bastards – to hell with this cultural sensitivity crap.” And as a direct result, got four of his fellow American servicemen killed (so far).

  • Michael B.

    Ask yourself the question: Imagine another country invades the USA. So already the relationship will probably be a bit strained. Now on top of that, the invading army starts to burn Bibles, and some of their soldiers want to start handing out Korans.

  • Michael B.

    Ask yourself the question: Imagine another country invades the USA. So already the relationship will probably be a bit strained. Now on top of that, the invading army starts to burn Bibles, and some of their soldiers want to start handing out Korans.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Kerner – right. Tom: You are obviously just as perverterd and deficient as DP.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Kerner – right. Tom: You are obviously just as perverterd and deficient as DP.

  • http://www.pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com Pastor Larry Peters

    Am I wrong but is it not a sin to write in the Koran but it is acceptable practice to burn a Koran that has been ruined or desecrated?

  • http://www.pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com Pastor Larry Peters

    Am I wrong but is it not a sin to write in the Koran but it is acceptable practice to burn a Koran that has been ruined or desecrated?

  • Dennis Peskey

    To Poster #53 – Simply put, enough is enough. I do not tolerate bullies of any sort be they found on the playground or a blogpost. Your constant personal attacks and juvenile namecalling are not conducive to a fruitful discussion; in truth, they are quite annoying. If you are incapable of proferring intelligent opinions – then I suggest you offer nothing. At least that way we could maintain a higher view of your persona as opposed to reading such dribble and leaving no doubt of your stunted intellectual growth.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Dennis Peskey

    To Poster #53 – Simply put, enough is enough. I do not tolerate bullies of any sort be they found on the playground or a blogpost. Your constant personal attacks and juvenile namecalling are not conducive to a fruitful discussion; in truth, they are quite annoying. If you are incapable of proferring intelligent opinions – then I suggest you offer nothing. At least that way we could maintain a higher view of your persona as opposed to reading such dribble and leaving no doubt of your stunted intellectual growth.
    Pax,
    Dennis

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Dennis, you know that Pax means peace, right? Yet here you are, preaching an eye for an eye, all in the name of Christianity. Your posts reek of extreme ignorance, and sound more like High School wannabe Gangsta talk. Then you have the absolute gall to call me a bully?! Webmonk was dead right. I offered lots of intelligent counterposts, as did Webmonk and Kerner. But in your aggresive high-handedness you continued with you bloodlust and hatred. This will be my last response to you.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Dennis, you know that Pax means peace, right? Yet here you are, preaching an eye for an eye, all in the name of Christianity. Your posts reek of extreme ignorance, and sound more like High School wannabe Gangsta talk. Then you have the absolute gall to call me a bully?! Webmonk was dead right. I offered lots of intelligent counterposts, as did Webmonk and Kerner. But in your aggresive high-handedness you continued with you bloodlust and hatred. This will be my last response to you.

  • JunkerGeorg

    Given the behavior of the Federal Government in things foreign and domestic, they might as well start burning copies of the US Constitution and/or defacing certain articles of the Bill of Rights. Or at least to give the impression of cutting costs, turn it into toilet paper, along with the US Dollar. At least it would be honest and consistent with the unconstitutional leviathan the Federal Government has and will continue to become more and more, as we more and more borrow our way into financial oblivion for just a few more years of playing Empire. (But that was Bin Laden’s stated long-term strategy all along on how to bring down the US.)

  • JunkerGeorg

    Given the behavior of the Federal Government in things foreign and domestic, they might as well start burning copies of the US Constitution and/or defacing certain articles of the Bill of Rights. Or at least to give the impression of cutting costs, turn it into toilet paper, along with the US Dollar. At least it would be honest and consistent with the unconstitutional leviathan the Federal Government has and will continue to become more and more, as we more and more borrow our way into financial oblivion for just a few more years of playing Empire. (But that was Bin Laden’s stated long-term strategy all along on how to bring down the US.)

  • Tom Hering

    How are they going to burn these dollars?

  • Tom Hering

    How are they going to burn these dollars?

  • Tom Hering

    Or (reading @ 57 again) turn them into toilet paper? Ouch. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    Or (reading @ 57 again) turn them into toilet paper? Ouch. :-D

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Btw, some of you might wonder at the extent/vigour of my responses to DP & Tom: Suffice to say, one doesn’t fight bloodlust by greater bloodlust, or ignorance by equal ignorance. Equally, one doesn’t oppose disorder by increasing it. But it is even worse when one party tries to do so in the Name of the Prince of Peace.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Btw, some of you might wonder at the extent/vigour of my responses to DP & Tom: Suffice to say, one doesn’t fight bloodlust by greater bloodlust, or ignorance by equal ignorance. Equally, one doesn’t oppose disorder by increasing it. But it is even worse when one party tries to do so in the Name of the Prince of Peace.

  • CRB

    Really! Does anyone believe that there will EVER be peace in these Muslim countries?! We never should have went over there. If these people want to live in the 7th century who are we to say, “No, you cannot”?!

  • CRB

    Really! Does anyone believe that there will EVER be peace in these Muslim countries?! We never should have went over there. If these people want to live in the 7th century who are we to say, “No, you cannot”?!

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Continued: That is why, for example, after all the Nazis did to Coventry, the firebombing of Dresden was still wrong. Even if your opponent is barberous, you should not descend into the darkness with him. One can fight war honourably. One can fight the enemy, without blind hatred. The former can be honourable. The latter is a sin.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Continued: That is why, for example, after all the Nazis did to Coventry, the firebombing of Dresden was still wrong. Even if your opponent is barberous, you should not descend into the darkness with him. One can fight war honourably. One can fight the enemy, without blind hatred. The former can be honourable. The latter is a sin.

  • Grace

    ~ ~ “That is why, for example, after all the Nazis did to Coventry, the firebombing of Dresden was still wrong. Even if your opponent is barberous, you should not descend into the darkness with him. “ ~ ~

    The United States nor the British “descended into darkness” they lifted the darkness to stop the brutal attacks on innocent people, and give light to the horrors of that time.

    The complaints of “firebombing” Dresden continue. After 6 million Jews were slaughterd, burned, gassed, expermented on, but yet poor Dresden should not have been stopped.

    Bombing Dresden by the U.S. Air Force, and British Royal Air Force in 1945 was justified, as the city of Dresden had 50,000 workers, and 110 factories in support of the Nazi war effort. One can continue to complain of this act as to whether it was justified, but in light of what was done in the camps to the Jewish people, and others, – - it was justified.

  • Grace

    ~ ~ “That is why, for example, after all the Nazis did to Coventry, the firebombing of Dresden was still wrong. Even if your opponent is barberous, you should not descend into the darkness with him. “ ~ ~

    The United States nor the British “descended into darkness” they lifted the darkness to stop the brutal attacks on innocent people, and give light to the horrors of that time.

    The complaints of “firebombing” Dresden continue. After 6 million Jews were slaughterd, burned, gassed, expermented on, but yet poor Dresden should not have been stopped.

    Bombing Dresden by the U.S. Air Force, and British Royal Air Force in 1945 was justified, as the city of Dresden had 50,000 workers, and 110 factories in support of the Nazi war effort. One can continue to complain of this act as to whether it was justified, but in light of what was done in the camps to the Jewish people, and others, – - it was justified.

  • Tom Moeller

    KK @ 53: Not finding your post @ 60 of any value in understanding your personal attacks…

    In what way do you find me “perverted?”
    By what criteria to you find me “deficient?”
    Do you understand, first hand, the real life histories of Dennis or myself and choose to declare, in public, damning judgement on our opinions?

    Aside: Get a reality check. Engaging the enemy to win is very different from engaging the enemy in hatred. It would be my guess you could not make that distinction without snapping in two.

  • Tom Moeller

    KK @ 53: Not finding your post @ 60 of any value in understanding your personal attacks…

    In what way do you find me “perverted?”
    By what criteria to you find me “deficient?”
    Do you understand, first hand, the real life histories of Dennis or myself and choose to declare, in public, damning judgement on our opinions?

    Aside: Get a reality check. Engaging the enemy to win is very different from engaging the enemy in hatred. It would be my guess you could not make that distinction without snapping in two.

  • Tom Hering

    Klasie @ 62, yes, we can fight a war honorably and without blind hatred, but that’s not our history. We fought the red savages, and the warlike Germanic race, and the Japs, and the Commie gooks. And we fought them (respectively) with genocide, firebombs, atomic bombs, and napalm.

    If anything, I think our current government and military has come a long way in not fighting wars with racist propaganda, and the destruction of civilian populations. Though, obviously, some of our troops – and some of their civilian supporters – haven’t caught up with our leadership yet.

  • Tom Hering

    Klasie @ 62, yes, we can fight a war honorably and without blind hatred, but that’s not our history. We fought the red savages, and the warlike Germanic race, and the Japs, and the Commie gooks. And we fought them (respectively) with genocide, firebombs, atomic bombs, and napalm.

    If anything, I think our current government and military has come a long way in not fighting wars with racist propaganda, and the destruction of civilian populations. Though, obviously, some of our troops – and some of their civilian supporters – haven’t caught up with our leadership yet.

  • Tom Moeller

    Grace @63 I would disagree that Dresden was justified in the terms you laid out.
    It was war. It was the first mass incendiary bombing undertaken (Tokyo was more destructive over time). Unintended consequences of unknown techniques of warfare are found in all wars.
    Lastly, justification should be initiating not post-mortem.
    I see the act as justified as an outcome of war. I find it ghastly and counter productive after the fact.

    $0.02

  • Tom Moeller

    Grace @63 I would disagree that Dresden was justified in the terms you laid out.
    It was war. It was the first mass incendiary bombing undertaken (Tokyo was more destructive over time). Unintended consequences of unknown techniques of warfare are found in all wars.
    Lastly, justification should be initiating not post-mortem.
    I see the act as justified as an outcome of war. I find it ghastly and counter productive after the fact.

    $0.02

  • Grace

    Tom,

    The war continued, I believe that bombing Dresden was a wise move. The Nazi regime had no intention of ending their reign of terror on the Jews, or invading other countries. We were at war, the Nazi’s could have ended the slaughter, but they didn’t. It was a “just” move on the part of the British and the U.S.

    The beady eyes of Nazism, continue to complain as “Bombenholocaust” as in “holocaust by bomb” but it falls on deft ears, as 6 million Jews were killed, much before the bombing of Dresden. The argument over Dresden, the accusation of “Dresden’s Holocaust of bombs” is outrageous.

    The Nazi’s didn’t want peace anymore than Japan did. The bombings to help end this horror were justifed.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    The war continued, I believe that bombing Dresden was a wise move. The Nazi regime had no intention of ending their reign of terror on the Jews, or invading other countries. We were at war, the Nazi’s could have ended the slaughter, but they didn’t. It was a “just” move on the part of the British and the U.S.

    The beady eyes of Nazism, continue to complain as “Bombenholocaust” as in “holocaust by bomb” but it falls on deft ears, as 6 million Jews were killed, much before the bombing of Dresden. The argument over Dresden, the accusation of “Dresden’s Holocaust of bombs” is outrageous.

    The Nazi’s didn’t want peace anymore than Japan did. The bombings to help end this horror were justifed.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, in war, the bombing of infrastructure, factories, military structures, and in certain cases even governmental buildings oof certain types are ok. The bombing of town centres and residential areas is never ok. This principle was already laid down in the SEventh century as the Cain Adomnan, the Law of the Innocents (well, that it what it would imply in modern terms)。That law was the direct result of the introduction of Christianity into the Celtic tribes of what today is Scotland .

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, in war, the bombing of infrastructure, factories, military structures, and in certain cases even governmental buildings oof certain types are ok. The bombing of town centres and residential areas is never ok. This principle was already laid down in the SEventh century as the Cain Adomnan, the Law of the Innocents (well, that it what it would imply in modern terms)。That law was the direct result of the introduction of Christianity into the Celtic tribes of what today is Scotland .

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Tom: You and Dennis were essentially agitating for the wholesale slaughter of a people because they supported your enemies (Al Qaida), and in essence, extrapolating to all Muslims in the world. That is the foundation for Genocide speak, and contemptabile to say the least. Plus, it makes you no different than those people you call your enemies in the first place.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Tom: You and Dennis were essentially agitating for the wholesale slaughter of a people because they supported your enemies (Al Qaida), and in essence, extrapolating to all Muslims in the world. That is the foundation for Genocide speak, and contemptabile to say the least. Plus, it makes you no different than those people you call your enemies in the first place.

  • Grace

    “The bombing of town centres and residential areas is never ok.”

    The city of Dresden had over 50,000 workers, 110 factories in support of the Nazi war effort, was not a totally “residential area” that’s nothing but a farce. That is no small support group. For the most part they owned, or worked for these factories, which spurred on the war effort, that was to be the demise of the Jews.

    Dresden got what they deserved, when the British and U.S. bombed their Dresden. The Nazi’s were not ready to stop their wicked deeds. If it had not been for the bombings in Dresden, many more Jews would have suffered and died at the hands of the Nazi’s. Wasn’t that enough? .. or should the U.S. and the British stood by and begged Germany to stop the gassings, the horrific experiments on Jews and their children. I’ve seen endless photographs of children who’s genitals are mutilated, REMOVED, due to the hatred of Jews, by Nazi Germany, especially the little boys. Nothing would have ended that sort of horrific hatred, and painful experiments.

    Maybe the vast majority of you have never seen the photos, I have. When I think of the pain and anguish these children went through, and their parentss, IF, IF they were ever to see their little boys again, the bombing of Dresden was justified!

  • Grace

    “The bombing of town centres and residential areas is never ok.”

    The city of Dresden had over 50,000 workers, 110 factories in support of the Nazi war effort, was not a totally “residential area” that’s nothing but a farce. That is no small support group. For the most part they owned, or worked for these factories, which spurred on the war effort, that was to be the demise of the Jews.

    Dresden got what they deserved, when the British and U.S. bombed their Dresden. The Nazi’s were not ready to stop their wicked deeds. If it had not been for the bombings in Dresden, many more Jews would have suffered and died at the hands of the Nazi’s. Wasn’t that enough? .. or should the U.S. and the British stood by and begged Germany to stop the gassings, the horrific experiments on Jews and their children. I’ve seen endless photographs of children who’s genitals are mutilated, REMOVED, due to the hatred of Jews, by Nazi Germany, especially the little boys. Nothing would have ended that sort of horrific hatred, and painful experiments.

    Maybe the vast majority of you have never seen the photos, I have. When I think of the pain and anguish these children went through, and their parentss, IF, IF they were ever to see their little boys again, the bombing of Dresden was justified!

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Look here, Tom, and Dennis: I’m sorry if you felt bullied, or personally attacked (and I certainly did not mince my words, and I did attack you personally). But the encouragement of hatred, of slaughter, in such a cavalier fashion deserved no less. I guess I could have been more diplomatic, but having a blinding migraine 2 days in a row makes me get to the point much quicker than normal.

    I have little patience with those that want to repay hate with hate. If that was not your intention, then say so. And if were not encouraging slaughter, then say so too. Because it sure sounds like it. And, btw, I’m not ignorant of war, nor of its affects: My brother fought in the. Namibian/Angolan Bush war, and I had other family members in the First and Second World Wars, as well as the Anglo Boer War.I grew up in a militarised culture. I grew up with regular bomb drills, learning to spot suspicious bags etc. I know about terrorism/freedom fighters (depending on your perspective). I know what it is to live when there are major riots etc. Iow, when it comes to military matters, and how they impact civilian life, I’m not an absolute ignoramus.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Look here, Tom, and Dennis: I’m sorry if you felt bullied, or personally attacked (and I certainly did not mince my words, and I did attack you personally). But the encouragement of hatred, of slaughter, in such a cavalier fashion deserved no less. I guess I could have been more diplomatic, but having a blinding migraine 2 days in a row makes me get to the point much quicker than normal.

    I have little patience with those that want to repay hate with hate. If that was not your intention, then say so. And if were not encouraging slaughter, then say so too. Because it sure sounds like it. And, btw, I’m not ignorant of war, nor of its affects: My brother fought in the. Namibian/Angolan Bush war, and I had other family members in the First and Second World Wars, as well as the Anglo Boer War.I grew up in a militarised culture. I grew up with regular bomb drills, learning to spot suspicious bags etc. I know about terrorism/freedom fighters (depending on your perspective). I know what it is to live when there are major riots etc. Iow, when it comes to military matters, and how they impact civilian life, I’m not an absolute ignoramus.

  • Grace

    Reading all the posts this evening. There is no excuse for excusing Al Qaeda, unless of course one believes the U.S. is the evil culprit of a holocaust the mutilation of children and adults, and then dives for cover, after we were attacked in 9-11.

    ~~ “I could have been more diplomatic, but having a blinding migraine 2 days in a row makes me get to the point much quicker than normal.”~~

    Sometimes these blogs bring out the “TRUE” spirit of commenters. Especially those who are anti-American, and hide behind all sorts of rhetoric and pretense, but when night falls, the curtain lifts, to expose the truth.

    Al Qaeda has nothing to do with the remarks made regarding Dresden, Germany. Now the discussion takes another turn in which the commentator tries to mix and match the current conflict within the world in a word, the Middle-East.

    When all fails, bring on another topic that might turn in favor of those who expose an anti-American stance. Most likely those who don’t live in our country, nor are citizens of the United States, but consistently find fault with the U.S. In fact, it’s their hobby, FULL TIME, blogs included, or any other way to cast a shadow on the only country who would help another in time of need! It’s that beady eyed stance against the U.S. which is most obvious.

  • Grace

    Reading all the posts this evening. There is no excuse for excusing Al Qaeda, unless of course one believes the U.S. is the evil culprit of a holocaust the mutilation of children and adults, and then dives for cover, after we were attacked in 9-11.

    ~~ “I could have been more diplomatic, but having a blinding migraine 2 days in a row makes me get to the point much quicker than normal.”~~

    Sometimes these blogs bring out the “TRUE” spirit of commenters. Especially those who are anti-American, and hide behind all sorts of rhetoric and pretense, but when night falls, the curtain lifts, to expose the truth.

    Al Qaeda has nothing to do with the remarks made regarding Dresden, Germany. Now the discussion takes another turn in which the commentator tries to mix and match the current conflict within the world in a word, the Middle-East.

    When all fails, bring on another topic that might turn in favor of those who expose an anti-American stance. Most likely those who don’t live in our country, nor are citizens of the United States, but consistently find fault with the U.S. In fact, it’s their hobby, FULL TIME, blogs included, or any other way to cast a shadow on the only country who would help another in time of need! It’s that beady eyed stance against the U.S. which is most obvious.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, nobody was excusing AQ. It boggles the mind how on earth you got that out of my comments, or Anti-Americanism. My comments actually supports the general objective of Nato policy in Afghanistann and if you cannot see that, your own prejuidice and hatred have obviously blinded you. Demonstrate, if you will, any of your assertions from my statements above, which, btw, are in full accord with what both Webmonk, theLibertarian-leaning American; Kerner the Conservarive American; and also Tom Hering the Liberal American said. It is obviously you then who has a radicalised view then, is it not?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, nobody was excusing AQ. It boggles the mind how on earth you got that out of my comments, or Anti-Americanism. My comments actually supports the general objective of Nato policy in Afghanistann and if you cannot see that, your own prejuidice and hatred have obviously blinded you. Demonstrate, if you will, any of your assertions from my statements above, which, btw, are in full accord with what both Webmonk, theLibertarian-leaning American; Kerner the Conservarive American; and also Tom Hering the Liberal American said. It is obviously you then who has a radicalised view then, is it not?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    You see Grace, Tom M and Dennis complained about my attacks earlier. I then came back to explain why I felt justified in such extreme responses to their earlier statements, and invited them to prove the contrary, which I still hope they do. Nothing will delight me more.

    You, however, make frankly ludicrous, and also dangerous allegations, based on absolutely no logical argument, and do not enter rational discussion. This has. Been the pattern of your behaviour ever since you joioned this site. Somehow you have , for instance, fitted me with the tag of “anti-American”, something which have never demonstrated, whichI have denied, and which you cannot logically prove. Please drop that now, or. I will be forced to ask for your posts to be removed. If you attacked me based on positions I do hold, that would be perfectly ok. If you insulted me because of who I am, I would laugh it off. But do not make baseless allegations – that is bearing false witness, and a flagrant breaking of that Commandment.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    You see Grace, Tom M and Dennis complained about my attacks earlier. I then came back to explain why I felt justified in such extreme responses to their earlier statements, and invited them to prove the contrary, which I still hope they do. Nothing will delight me more.

    You, however, make frankly ludicrous, and also dangerous allegations, based on absolutely no logical argument, and do not enter rational discussion. This has. Been the pattern of your behaviour ever since you joioned this site. Somehow you have , for instance, fitted me with the tag of “anti-American”, something which have never demonstrated, whichI have denied, and which you cannot logically prove. Please drop that now, or. I will be forced to ask for your posts to be removed. If you attacked me based on positions I do hold, that would be perfectly ok. If you insulted me because of who I am, I would laugh it off. But do not make baseless allegations – that is bearing false witness, and a flagrant breaking of that Commandment.

  • Michael B.

    @Klasie Kraalogies
    “But the encouragement of hatred, of slaughter, in such a cavalier fashion deserved no less. ”

    These are not political debates we are having. These people are batshit crazy (grace, dennis, sg, helen). I get that you’re a relatively moderate conservative, and maybe things are different in Canada, but in the USA you’re becoming an endangered species. Here’s a very humorous take on a not-so-humorous situation: http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-breeding-program-aimed-at-keeping-moderate-rep,27371/

  • Michael B.

    @Klasie Kraalogies
    “But the encouragement of hatred, of slaughter, in such a cavalier fashion deserved no less. ”

    These are not political debates we are having. These people are batshit crazy (grace, dennis, sg, helen). I get that you’re a relatively moderate conservative, and maybe things are different in Canada, but in the USA you’re becoming an endangered species. Here’s a very humorous take on a not-so-humorous situation: http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-breeding-program-aimed-at-keeping-moderate-rep,27371/

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 70, you’re clearly referencing Wikipedia’s summation of the 1953 U.S. Air Force report on the Dresden bombings.

    I’ll refer others to the full article, which actually presents a number of different views.

    I can’t find evidence that the bombing strategy had anything to do with saving the Jews. The Jews just weren’t a part of anyone’s thinking at the time – in planning and carrying out the raids.

    From the diary of Victor Klemperer, a Dresden Jew:

    …on the evening of this 13 February the catastrophe overtook Dresden: the bombs fell, the houses collapsed, the phosphorus flowed, the burning beams crashed on to the heads of Aryans and non-Aryans alike and Jew and Christian met death in the same firestorm …

  • Tom Hering

    Grace @ 70, you’re clearly referencing Wikipedia’s summation of the 1953 U.S. Air Force report on the Dresden bombings.

    I’ll refer others to the full article, which actually presents a number of different views.

    I can’t find evidence that the bombing strategy had anything to do with saving the Jews. The Jews just weren’t a part of anyone’s thinking at the time – in planning and carrying out the raids.

    From the diary of Victor Klemperer, a Dresden Jew:

    …on the evening of this 13 February the catastrophe overtook Dresden: the bombs fell, the houses collapsed, the phosphorus flowed, the burning beams crashed on to the heads of Aryans and non-Aryans alike and Jew and Christian met death in the same firestorm …

  • Tom Hering

    Klasie, even if you were an anti-American, you’d be the kind of anti-American I’d welcome to America. Your criticisms are milder, and more carefully reasoned, than the ones many born Americans – on both the Left and the Right – make of their own country. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    Klasie, even if you were an anti-American, you’d be the kind of anti-American I’d welcome to America. Your criticisms are milder, and more carefully reasoned, than the ones many born Americans – on both the Left and the Right – make of their own country. :-D

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Michael – oh, I’m very much a Centrist within the broader Liberal Democratic Tradition, with an Ordoliberal Economic View, and leaning towards Realpolitik and minimal interventionism (not non-interventionism).

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Michael – oh, I’m very much a Centrist within the broader Liberal Democratic Tradition, with an Ordoliberal Economic View, and leaning towards Realpolitik and minimal interventionism (not non-interventionism).

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I know Tom. I can quote them too, except I won’t, because I don’t want to create unwanted associations :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I know Tom. I can quote them too, except I won’t, because I don’t want to create unwanted associations :)

  • Cincinnatus

    Guys, this is the point I was trying to make to kerner, KK, et al.:

    “Let’s go. Nothing we do there can be permanent. This is a country where people hold murderous riots over Koran burnings. Who wants to tell more American families that their sons or daughters died trying to make a decent country of this kind of fanatical rabble. Bring our troops home now.”

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/2012/02/25/lets-leave-afghanistan/

    Obviously, there’s much more to this argument. But our involvements should have ended after forcibly removing the Taliban from power in 2001. (You know, the same Taliban that is now extremely popular in Afghanistan and that we now apparently consider a legitimate diplomatic partner.) As I said earlier, at least in that scenario, we would have achieved a victory in the history books and maintained our dignity. Now, as a result of all our nation-building and democracy-promotion efforts, we’re leaving in disgrace like the Soviets, another trillion in debt and with the Taliban probably in office once again.

  • Cincinnatus

    Guys, this is the point I was trying to make to kerner, KK, et al.:

    “Let’s go. Nothing we do there can be permanent. This is a country where people hold murderous riots over Koran burnings. Who wants to tell more American families that their sons or daughters died trying to make a decent country of this kind of fanatical rabble. Bring our troops home now.”

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/2012/02/25/lets-leave-afghanistan/

    Obviously, there’s much more to this argument. But our involvements should have ended after forcibly removing the Taliban from power in 2001. (You know, the same Taliban that is now extremely popular in Afghanistan and that we now apparently consider a legitimate diplomatic partner.) As I said earlier, at least in that scenario, we would have achieved a victory in the history books and maintained our dignity. Now, as a result of all our nation-building and democracy-promotion efforts, we’re leaving in disgrace like the Soviets, another trillion in debt and with the Taliban probably in office once again.

  • Grace

    Tom @ 76

    YOU WROTE: “Grace @ 70, you’re clearly referencing Wikipedia’s summation of the 1953 U.S. Air Force report on the Dresden bombings.”

    My information did not come from Wikipedia.

  • Grace

    Tom @ 76

    YOU WROTE: “Grace @ 70, you’re clearly referencing Wikipedia’s summation of the 1953 U.S. Air Force report on the Dresden bombings.”

    My information did not come from Wikipedia.

  • Grace

    Anti-American comments are made all the time, by those who are not citizens of the U.S. and do not live here, and some who are citizens , who live abroad, calling themselves “ex pats” or reside in the U.S.

    I have every right to speak up, when comments are made which are against my country, or those remarks which complain non stop about how the United States and the British handled the war against the Nazi’s. That would include the bombing of Dresden.

  • Grace

    Anti-American comments are made all the time, by those who are not citizens of the U.S. and do not live here, and some who are citizens , who live abroad, calling themselves “ex pats” or reside in the U.S.

    I have every right to speak up, when comments are made which are against my country, or those remarks which complain non stop about how the United States and the British handled the war against the Nazi’s. That would include the bombing of Dresden.

  • Tom Hering

    “My information did not come from Wikipedia.” – Grace @ 81.

    You’ll excuse me for thinking it did.

    “The city of Dresden had over 50,000 workers, 110 factories in support of the Nazi war effort …” – Grace @ 70.

    “… housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the Nazi war effort.” – Wikipedia, Bombing of Dresden in WWII.

  • Tom Hering

    “My information did not come from Wikipedia.” – Grace @ 81.

    You’ll excuse me for thinking it did.

    “The city of Dresden had over 50,000 workers, 110 factories in support of the Nazi war effort …” – Grace @ 70.

    “… housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the Nazi war effort.” – Wikipedia, Bombing of Dresden in WWII.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    That information, plus other information with much higher numbers of “workers” and “housing” can be found. I choose to use the lesser numbers to be on the safe side. Wikipedia is not in the mix.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    That information, plus other information with much higher numbers of “workers” and “housing” can be found. I choose to use the lesser numbers to be on the safe side. Wikipedia is not in the mix.

  • trotk

    Grace, for the life of me, I can’t understand why you would defend the bombing of Dresden. Even if you are comfortable with terror bombing as a military tactic, Dresden was totally unnecessary. Germany was already collapsing and bombing Dresden probably didn’t speed that up at all. Besides, it was a foolish move from the standpoint of alienating those Germans that might have helped from the inside.

  • trotk

    Grace, for the life of me, I can’t understand why you would defend the bombing of Dresden. Even if you are comfortable with terror bombing as a military tactic, Dresden was totally unnecessary. Germany was already collapsing and bombing Dresden probably didn’t speed that up at all. Besides, it was a foolish move from the standpoint of alienating those Germans that might have helped from the inside.

  • Grace

    trotk

    YOU WROTE: “Germany was already collapsing and bombing Dresden probably didn’t speed that up at all. Besides, it was a foolish move from the standpoint of alienating those Germans that might have helped from the inside.”

    Nonsense, we didn’t alienate anyone. They had to be stopped, and that’s exactly what the U.S. and the British did.

    You’re wrong. Germany finally fell about three months later. If the British Royal Air Force and the United States had not bombed Dresden, and Berlin, the war would have been longer. How many more Jews and innocents would have been gassed, and mutilated.

    The Nazi’s got what the deserved, and all those who worked in the factories, etc.

  • Grace

    trotk

    YOU WROTE: “Germany was already collapsing and bombing Dresden probably didn’t speed that up at all. Besides, it was a foolish move from the standpoint of alienating those Germans that might have helped from the inside.”

    Nonsense, we didn’t alienate anyone. They had to be stopped, and that’s exactly what the U.S. and the British did.

    You’re wrong. Germany finally fell about three months later. If the British Royal Air Force and the United States had not bombed Dresden, and Berlin, the war would have been longer. How many more Jews and innocents would have been gassed, and mutilated.

    The Nazi’s got what the deserved, and all those who worked in the factories, etc.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Trotk, Trotk, Trotk (@85), honestly. You appear to be trying to use something like logic or facts here. Not necessary.

    Because, see, you forget. Germans bad.

    That’s all you need to know. Don’t try to overcomplicate things. Germans bad.

    (Also, Lutherans bad. Mormons bad. Ron Paul bad. Drugs bad.)

    You probably haven’t spent years and years studying like Grace has. That’s how she arrived at these conclusions. By studying. For years. (Confidential to myself: poor tODD!)

    Trotk, I’m not sure what ex-pat community you live in, or if you’re just a perverted druggie like Ron Paul, or if you just don’t read your Bible as often as Grace does, but you’re wrong.

    So wrong. Germans bad.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Trotk, Trotk, Trotk (@85), honestly. You appear to be trying to use something like logic or facts here. Not necessary.

    Because, see, you forget. Germans bad.

    That’s all you need to know. Don’t try to overcomplicate things. Germans bad.

    (Also, Lutherans bad. Mormons bad. Ron Paul bad. Drugs bad.)

    You probably haven’t spent years and years studying like Grace has. That’s how she arrived at these conclusions. By studying. For years. (Confidential to myself: poor tODD!)

    Trotk, I’m not sure what ex-pat community you live in, or if you’re just a perverted druggie like Ron Paul, or if you just don’t read your Bible as often as Grace does, but you’re wrong.

    So wrong. Germans bad.

  • Grace

    tODD @87

    You left out prostitution – why leave that one out of the mix?

    Regarding Ron Paul:

    Legalizing prostitution is about protecting liberty

    Q: You say that the federal government should stay out of people’s personal habits, including marijuana. You feel the same about prostitution and gay marriage. Why should social conservatives vote for you?

    A: They will, if they see that my defense of liberty is the defense of their right to practice religion and say their prayers where they want. It’s an issue of protecting liberty across the board. We don’t have the First Amendment so we can talk about the weather. We have the First Amendment so we can say very controversial things. If you have the inconsistency, then you’re really not defending liberty. You can’t hurt other people, but yes, you have the right to do things that are very controversial. If not, then you’ll have a government that tells us what we can eat and drink and whatever.

    Source: 2011 GOP primary debate in South Carolina , May 5, 2011

    That’s a slippery way to circumvent prostitution.

  • Grace

    tODD @87

    You left out prostitution – why leave that one out of the mix?

    Regarding Ron Paul:

    Legalizing prostitution is about protecting liberty

    Q: You say that the federal government should stay out of people’s personal habits, including marijuana. You feel the same about prostitution and gay marriage. Why should social conservatives vote for you?

    A: They will, if they see that my defense of liberty is the defense of their right to practice religion and say their prayers where they want. It’s an issue of protecting liberty across the board. We don’t have the First Amendment so we can talk about the weather. We have the First Amendment so we can say very controversial things. If you have the inconsistency, then you’re really not defending liberty. You can’t hurt other people, but yes, you have the right to do things that are very controversial. If not, then you’ll have a government that tells us what we can eat and drink and whatever.

    Source: 2011 GOP primary debate in South Carolina , May 5, 2011

    That’s a slippery way to circumvent prostitution.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Todd – see, you already left something out. So, just spare yourself the effort and say – not-Grace bad, Grace good. Repeat. Just like in Animal Farm. Oink. Or baaahh.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Todd – see, you already left something out. So, just spare yourself the effort and say – not-Grace bad, Grace good. Repeat. Just like in Animal Farm. Oink. Or baaahh.

  • kerner

    I can’t stand it anymore.

    Grace, did you read this quote from a Dresden survivor (which WAS in the wikipedia article):

    “To my left I suddenly see a woman. I can see her to this day and shall never forget it. She carries a bundle in her arms. It is a baby. She runs, she falls, and the child flies in an arc into the fire. ”

    The the allies burned babies at Dresden. Justified? Because the baby was a Nazi and got what she deserved?

  • kerner

    I can’t stand it anymore.

    Grace, did you read this quote from a Dresden survivor (which WAS in the wikipedia article):

    “To my left I suddenly see a woman. I can see her to this day and shall never forget it. She carries a bundle in her arms. It is a baby. She runs, she falls, and the child flies in an arc into the fire. ”

    The the allies burned babies at Dresden. Justified? Because the baby was a Nazi and got what she deserved?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Kerner – Grace is is a twisted and perverted creature, and no more resceptive to logic or pleadings of mercy than stone. Pray for her.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Kerner – Grace is is a twisted and perverted creature, and no more resceptive to logic or pleadings of mercy than stone. Pray for her.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    In fact she has, in the intense hatred she shows for Germans, Moslems, Canadians, Mexicans, Lutherans – this lost goes on and and on, shown that she is not better than those very Nazis themselves.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    In fact she has, in the intense hatred she shows for Germans, Moslems, Canadians, Mexicans, Lutherans – this lost goes on and and on, shown that she is not better than those very Nazis themselves.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I forgot to add – any person of colour.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I forgot to add – any person of colour.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And btw, the bombing of Dresden was in revenge for the bombing of Coventry. That was also a heinous deed.

    But two wrongs never make a right. You don’t repay a war crime with another. That is why today, in the event of say the accidental bombing of a civilian instillation, there is a enquiry, and an official apology.

    I refer back to my original reference to the Law of the Innocents. If our Ancient Christian Forebears realised this, why not us?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And btw, the bombing of Dresden was in revenge for the bombing of Coventry. That was also a heinous deed.

    But two wrongs never make a right. You don’t repay a war crime with another. That is why today, in the event of say the accidental bombing of a civilian instillation, there is a enquiry, and an official apology.

    I refer back to my original reference to the Law of the Innocents. If our Ancient Christian Forebears realised this, why not us?

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 90

    “Grace, did you read this quote from a Dresden survivor (which WAS in the wikipedia article):”

    I didn’t see it. Not everyone resorts to wikipedia.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 90

    “Grace, did you read this quote from a Dresden survivor (which WAS in the wikipedia article):”

    I didn’t see it. Not everyone resorts to wikipedia.

  • Grace

    If any of you believe that the United States and the British were so wrong, hateful, regarding the bombings of Germany, you’re wrong. I agree with my country, and that of the British. I, and millions of others in both countries believe that what was done was right, in light of what could not be stopped, due to the hatred of the Jewish people.

    No one one going to stop the Nazi’s.

    I hate no one. I do not respect anyone or any country who did what was done by the Nazi’s, or the hideous way in which they stole homes, up-rooted families, and then camped those who could work, and gassed the rest.

    To accuse me of hating, is absurd. I don’t believe that all of anyone is evil.

    The area within Dresden had a large number of industry, including factories that produced electronics, radar equipment, parts for fighters, such as Messerschmitt. Siemens, located in Dresden, manufactured military gun-sights and so did Zeiss-Ikon. Dresden was very important to the Nazi’s as Germany fought the war. Without Dresden and other cities – Berlin, Leipzig, and Chemnitz, the Nazi’s would not be able to continue, especially Dresden which housed and manufactured war material.

    Dresden was bombed between February 13 and 14, 1945. Hitler committed suicide on April 30, 1945. Germany surrendered May 8, 1945. It was finally over.

    The killing of 6 million Jews, and many others who were political, or who tried to help died horrible deaths. How many more would have been slaughtered had the U.S. and the British stood by? I cannot imagine allowing such a thing to continue, knowing full well the everyday, there were more gassed in the camps, more lives were lost in the British and American military, it couldn’t continue.

  • Grace

    If any of you believe that the United States and the British were so wrong, hateful, regarding the bombings of Germany, you’re wrong. I agree with my country, and that of the British. I, and millions of others in both countries believe that what was done was right, in light of what could not be stopped, due to the hatred of the Jewish people.

    No one one going to stop the Nazi’s.

    I hate no one. I do not respect anyone or any country who did what was done by the Nazi’s, or the hideous way in which they stole homes, up-rooted families, and then camped those who could work, and gassed the rest.

    To accuse me of hating, is absurd. I don’t believe that all of anyone is evil.

    The area within Dresden had a large number of industry, including factories that produced electronics, radar equipment, parts for fighters, such as Messerschmitt. Siemens, located in Dresden, manufactured military gun-sights and so did Zeiss-Ikon. Dresden was very important to the Nazi’s as Germany fought the war. Without Dresden and other cities – Berlin, Leipzig, and Chemnitz, the Nazi’s would not be able to continue, especially Dresden which housed and manufactured war material.

    Dresden was bombed between February 13 and 14, 1945. Hitler committed suicide on April 30, 1945. Germany surrendered May 8, 1945. It was finally over.

    The killing of 6 million Jews, and many others who were political, or who tried to help died horrible deaths. How many more would have been slaughtered had the U.S. and the British stood by? I cannot imagine allowing such a thing to continue, knowing full well the everyday, there were more gassed in the camps, more lives were lost in the British and American military, it couldn’t continue.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – once again, bombing of factories, ok. bombing of town centres, in such a way as to ignite a firestorm – not ok.

    And once again – the bombing of Dresden was a revenge attack because of the attack on Coventry. It had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Holocaust was surely one of the most horrific events in the history of man, yes, only surpassed by Stalin’s purges, and Mao’s killings. And approached (possibly) by events in Armenia, and Cambodia. But Dresden wasn’t a response to that, and thus one cannot judge it in the light of that. Yes, it pales in comparison. But just as stealing a bicycle pales in comparison to stealing a Helicopter, it is still stealing. And not right. And it is easy to judge after the fact, too, I’ll admit. Just as it is easy to cast judgement on the use of the A-bomb today. We weren’t there in 1945. But at the same time, we cannot delight in death, and we cannot justify it. But we can learn from it. And we certainly should not use it to excuse present action.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – once again, bombing of factories, ok. bombing of town centres, in such a way as to ignite a firestorm – not ok.

    And once again – the bombing of Dresden was a revenge attack because of the attack on Coventry. It had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Holocaust was surely one of the most horrific events in the history of man, yes, only surpassed by Stalin’s purges, and Mao’s killings. And approached (possibly) by events in Armenia, and Cambodia. But Dresden wasn’t a response to that, and thus one cannot judge it in the light of that. Yes, it pales in comparison. But just as stealing a bicycle pales in comparison to stealing a Helicopter, it is still stealing. And not right. And it is easy to judge after the fact, too, I’ll admit. Just as it is easy to cast judgement on the use of the A-bomb today. We weren’t there in 1945. But at the same time, we cannot delight in death, and we cannot justify it. But we can learn from it. And we certainly should not use it to excuse present action.

  • Grace

    The bombings in Dresden were justified, it doesn’t equate to “delight” it’s sad that it was needed to end the war – the spin that’s being spun NOW is ludicrous, but not surprising.

  • Grace

    The bombings in Dresden were justified, it doesn’t equate to “delight” it’s sad that it was needed to end the war – the spin that’s being spun NOW is ludicrous, but not surprising.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Delight might be a bit overkill, but you are constantly failing to face up to the facts: There is a difference between bombing factories and rail facilities, and the creation of a firestorm in a town. True, it is said that part of the objective was to create a flood of civilian refugees that will clog the roads – this however proves that the targets were civilian. Whereas the Nazis did the same, I still believe that such tactics are not ok at all.

    As to the hate thing – you have made yourself a minor celebrity on this blog in your anti-German posts, your anti-Lutheran posts, your anti-Canadian posts, your posts on the supposed racial inferiority etc of Mexicans and other Latino’s, your racial profiling of African people as intelectually inferior – thus, in the light of these things, it is difficult not to read comments like your comments above as not some sort of secret delight in the killing of the “unwanted peoples”. It fits in with the character you have created for yourself. If that does not correspond with the real Grace – then say so.

    I have spared no effort in telling you that I wish the US well, and that my concern about foreign policy etc is precisely because I would like the US to prosper, and not make bad policy decisions. But even words like that, which corresponds to things said by other people (like Kerner, and Webmonk in this thread for instance) gets twisted in your mind. Thus I can only surmise it is because of my nationality/ethnicity/religion that you think thus. This further supports my assertion that your mind has been twisted by hate and prejuidice.

    Just repent of that, Grace, for it is wrong, and evil.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Delight might be a bit overkill, but you are constantly failing to face up to the facts: There is a difference between bombing factories and rail facilities, and the creation of a firestorm in a town. True, it is said that part of the objective was to create a flood of civilian refugees that will clog the roads – this however proves that the targets were civilian. Whereas the Nazis did the same, I still believe that such tactics are not ok at all.

    As to the hate thing – you have made yourself a minor celebrity on this blog in your anti-German posts, your anti-Lutheran posts, your anti-Canadian posts, your posts on the supposed racial inferiority etc of Mexicans and other Latino’s, your racial profiling of African people as intelectually inferior – thus, in the light of these things, it is difficult not to read comments like your comments above as not some sort of secret delight in the killing of the “unwanted peoples”. It fits in with the character you have created for yourself. If that does not correspond with the real Grace – then say so.

    I have spared no effort in telling you that I wish the US well, and that my concern about foreign policy etc is precisely because I would like the US to prosper, and not make bad policy decisions. But even words like that, which corresponds to things said by other people (like Kerner, and Webmonk in this thread for instance) gets twisted in your mind. Thus I can only surmise it is because of my nationality/ethnicity/religion that you think thus. This further supports my assertion that your mind has been twisted by hate and prejuidice.

    Just repent of that, Grace, for it is wrong, and evil.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    For the record: Nazi revisionists have also tried to rewrite the history of the bombing to make it into something it wasn’t. From a researched-supported death toll of 20 000, they have tried to push it as high as 500 000. One cannot decry the bombing, yet fall into the trap of the Rightwing propogandists either. Balance and historical accuracy is called for. I do not believe a court of law would have called it a premeditated war crime. But I also do not believe it was the right decision.

    Hindsight is always 20/20. But with the gift of hindsight, shouldn’t our foresight improve, just a little?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    For the record: Nazi revisionists have also tried to rewrite the history of the bombing to make it into something it wasn’t. From a researched-supported death toll of 20 000, they have tried to push it as high as 500 000. One cannot decry the bombing, yet fall into the trap of the Rightwing propogandists either. Balance and historical accuracy is called for. I do not believe a court of law would have called it a premeditated war crime. But I also do not believe it was the right decision.

    Hindsight is always 20/20. But with the gift of hindsight, shouldn’t our foresight improve, just a little?

  • Grace

    Kraalogies

    “As to the hate thing – you have made yourself a minor celebrity on this blog in your anti-German posts, your anti-Lutheran posts, your anti-Canadian posts, your posts on the supposed racial inferiority etc of Mexicans and other Latino’s, your racial profiling of African people as intelectually inferior – thus, in the light of these things, it is difficult not to read comments like your comments above as not some sort of secret delight in the killing of the “unwanted peoples”. It fits in with the character you have created for yourself. If that does not correspond with the real Grace – then say so.”

    I have friends who are Hispanic, German, and every ethnic group. The area in which I live is represented by most nations. It’s ignorant, to accuse me of hating those of other ethnic groups. I have never stated that Latino’s, are inferior, or that African Americans are inferior, nor am I a racist of any strip. Not to long ago, I made clear that I had changed my mind regarding sending all illegals back home. I believe you have me confused with sg,

    Because I don’t agree with Lutheran doctrine, doesn’t mean I’m anti-Lutheran. Nor all the rest which is bolded from your outburst.

    I have no need to defend myself. Your outbursts are unwarranted, and false. Throwing your ENTIRE POST into a blender.

    I hate anti-Semitism, and have no respect for socialism, communism, anti-Americanism, or those who disrespect my country. The very topic of this thread “But why don’t they love us?” is the question, however there are more than a few answers to that question. Having traveled, not only for business but vacation as well, one soon understands the resentment and envy of the American people. There is envy in this country between educational levels, careers, financial success, where one lives, and the way one looks.

    For over 30 years I have studied WW2. I have a very good library on the subject. When I lived in West LA, I interviewed many who had been in the camps, they were middle aged to the elderly, their arms stamped with the number. There were others who were not Jews, but witnessed what happened from the beginning, and WHY the situation was accepted.

    I have no interest at this present time, in discussing with you, the Nazi crimes, the hell that was raged against the Jews. Your exaggerations, and outbursts to me personally, are unwarranted. This is not the first time.

    Perhaps we can interact at a future time.

  • Grace

    Kraalogies

    “As to the hate thing – you have made yourself a minor celebrity on this blog in your anti-German posts, your anti-Lutheran posts, your anti-Canadian posts, your posts on the supposed racial inferiority etc of Mexicans and other Latino’s, your racial profiling of African people as intelectually inferior – thus, in the light of these things, it is difficult not to read comments like your comments above as not some sort of secret delight in the killing of the “unwanted peoples”. It fits in with the character you have created for yourself. If that does not correspond with the real Grace – then say so.”

    I have friends who are Hispanic, German, and every ethnic group. The area in which I live is represented by most nations. It’s ignorant, to accuse me of hating those of other ethnic groups. I have never stated that Latino’s, are inferior, or that African Americans are inferior, nor am I a racist of any strip. Not to long ago, I made clear that I had changed my mind regarding sending all illegals back home. I believe you have me confused with sg,

    Because I don’t agree with Lutheran doctrine, doesn’t mean I’m anti-Lutheran. Nor all the rest which is bolded from your outburst.

    I have no need to defend myself. Your outbursts are unwarranted, and false. Throwing your ENTIRE POST into a blender.

    I hate anti-Semitism, and have no respect for socialism, communism, anti-Americanism, or those who disrespect my country. The very topic of this thread “But why don’t they love us?” is the question, however there are more than a few answers to that question. Having traveled, not only for business but vacation as well, one soon understands the resentment and envy of the American people. There is envy in this country between educational levels, careers, financial success, where one lives, and the way one looks.

    For over 30 years I have studied WW2. I have a very good library on the subject. When I lived in West LA, I interviewed many who had been in the camps, they were middle aged to the elderly, their arms stamped with the number. There were others who were not Jews, but witnessed what happened from the beginning, and WHY the situation was accepted.

    I have no interest at this present time, in discussing with you, the Nazi crimes, the hell that was raged against the Jews. Your exaggerations, and outbursts to me personally, are unwarranted. This is not the first time.

    Perhaps we can interact at a future time.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – do I really need to go and quote your posts back to you? I can substantiate what I said.

    On this very blog you have said that Germans in Germany (today) are anti- semites.

    On this very blog you have repeatedly trumpeted, together with sg, the fact that Mexicans are, in your words “aggressive people”, and intimated that they tend twards criminality: See this thread, for instance: http://www.geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/

    Your tirades against Lutherans are well known – and have resulted in you being warned: http://www.geneveith.com/2011/08/31/human-experimentation-2/ (this one contains a post with a number of links to your other tirades).

    In the last couple of weeks, you have attacked Canada and Canadians at every opportunity.

    Why are you so consumed with hatred of people different than you??

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – do I really need to go and quote your posts back to you? I can substantiate what I said.

    On this very blog you have said that Germans in Germany (today) are anti- semites.

    On this very blog you have repeatedly trumpeted, together with sg, the fact that Mexicans are, in your words “aggressive people”, and intimated that they tend twards criminality: See this thread, for instance: http://www.geneveith.com/2010/08/26/horror-in-mexico/

    Your tirades against Lutherans are well known – and have resulted in you being warned: http://www.geneveith.com/2011/08/31/human-experimentation-2/ (this one contains a post with a number of links to your other tirades).

    In the last couple of weeks, you have attacked Canada and Canadians at every opportunity.

    Why are you so consumed with hatred of people different than you??

  • michael

    Why were US Marines punished for urinating on korans ? Weren’t they disposing of them in running water ?

  • michael

    Why were US Marines punished for urinating on korans ? Weren’t they disposing of them in running water ?


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