Declaring war on religion

Michael Gerson on the Obama administration’s mandate that Roman Catholic institutions, as well as those of other churches and pro-life organizations, must provide employees health insurance that will give them free birth control, sterilization, and abortifacients:

The religious exemption granted by Obamacare is narrower than anywhere else in federal law — essentially covering the delivery of homilies and the distribution of sacraments. Serving the poor and healing the sick are regarded as secular pursuits — a determination that would have surprised Christianity’s founder.

Both radicalism and maliciousness are at work in Obama’s decision — an edict delivered with a sneer. It is the most transparently anti-Catholic maneuver by the federal government since the Blaine Amendment was proposed in 1875 — a measure designed to diminish public tolerance of Romanism, then regarded as foreign, authoritarian and illiberal. Modern liberalism has progressed to the point of adopting the attitudes and methods of 19th-century Republican nativists. . . .

The implications of Obama’s power grab go further than contraception and will provoke opposition beyond Catholicism. Christian colleges and universities of various denominations will resist providing insurance coverage for abortifacients. And the astounding ambition of this federal precedent will soon be apparent to every religious institution. Obama is claiming the executive authority to determine which missions of believers are religious and which are not — and then to aggressively regulate institutions the government declares to be secular. It is a view of religious liberty so narrow and privatized that it barely covers the space between a believer’s ears.

Obama’s decision also reflects a certain view of liberalism. Classical liberalism was concerned with the freedom to hold and practice beliefs at odds with a public consensus. Modern liberalism uses the power of the state to impose liberal values on institutions it regards as backward. It is the difference between pluralism and anti-­clericalism.

The administration’s ultimate motivation is uncertain. Has it adopted a radical secularism out of conviction, or is it cynically appealing to radical secularists? In either case, the war on religion is now formally declared.

via Obama’s radical power grab on health care – The Washington Post.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Tom Hering

    Is this really about liberalism? Well, insofar as it’s an election year, and insofar as culture warriors need to turn in newspaper columns, yes. But maybe it’s really about a centrist President whose healthcare reform was written by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Industries that use law and government to force us to buy their products. Industries that want expand their markets, and the forced consumption of their products, right into the Church.

  • Tom Hering

    Is this really about liberalism? Well, insofar as it’s an election year, and insofar as culture warriors need to turn in newspaper columns, yes. But maybe it’s really about a centrist President whose healthcare reform was written by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Industries that use law and government to force us to buy their products. Industries that want expand their markets, and the forced consumption of their products, right into the Church.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Good point, Tom. Especially about industry writing laws. It brings to mind a certain governor having little girls immunised against their (or their parents’ will), somewhere south of Washington, because said pharmaceutical companies contributed heavily to him……

    BTW, the same immunizations were recently offered to the kids in our school district here in SK, but the parents had to give their permission first.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Good point, Tom. Especially about industry writing laws. It brings to mind a certain governor having little girls immunised against their (or their parents’ will), somewhere south of Washington, because said pharmaceutical companies contributed heavily to him……

    BTW, the same immunizations were recently offered to the kids in our school district here in SK, but the parents had to give their permission first.

  • Mary

    Check out Wesley Smith for further exploration of the topic. Freedom of worship, or freedom of religion?
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2012/01/30/obamacare-free-birth-control-rule-as-the-new-casesar-worship/

  • Mary

    Check out Wesley Smith for further exploration of the topic. Freedom of worship, or freedom of religion?
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2012/01/30/obamacare-free-birth-control-rule-as-the-new-casesar-worship/

  • Michael B.

    According to Catholic and some other Christian’s belief, a single-celled zygote is a human being with a soul. An abortion for any reason, including life of the mother, is wrong. (After all, you wouldn’t kill your 3 year old to save your own life.) Therefore, it’s okay to let the mother die rather than get an abortion. And we are told we must respect this belief, and not to is to wage war on religion. But there was a case where a manwas convicted of murder because he refused to take his child to a doctor and insisted on only prayer. The child later died of a preventable cause. Why do you have the right to question his religious beliefs?

  • Michael B.

    According to Catholic and some other Christian’s belief, a single-celled zygote is a human being with a soul. An abortion for any reason, including life of the mother, is wrong. (After all, you wouldn’t kill your 3 year old to save your own life.) Therefore, it’s okay to let the mother die rather than get an abortion. And we are told we must respect this belief, and not to is to wage war on religion. But there was a case where a manwas convicted of murder because he refused to take his child to a doctor and insisted on only prayer. The child later died of a preventable cause. Why do you have the right to question his religious beliefs?

  • Steve Billingsley

    Michael B,

    Nice strawman.

    First Amendment religion rights are not absolute (and no one is claiming they are). They wouldn’t cover human sacrifice, for example and there is already plenty of judicial precedent regarding refusing medical treatment for a minor. In the case mentioned in this post, no one is restricting anyone’s right to purchase or use contraception. It is imposing the responsibility on a religious organization to pay for contraception (which could contain abortificients) in conflict with the teaching of that organization.

    Apples and oranges.

    Try again.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Michael B,

    Nice strawman.

    First Amendment religion rights are not absolute (and no one is claiming they are). They wouldn’t cover human sacrifice, for example and there is already plenty of judicial precedent regarding refusing medical treatment for a minor. In the case mentioned in this post, no one is restricting anyone’s right to purchase or use contraception. It is imposing the responsibility on a religious organization to pay for contraception (which could contain abortificients) in conflict with the teaching of that organization.

    Apples and oranges.

    Try again.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith on Obama’s Administration mandate:

    Declaring war on religion

    A good and accurate title for what liberal Obama has done.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith on Obama’s Administration mandate:

    Declaring war on religion

    A good and accurate title for what liberal Obama has done.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “BTW, the same immunizations were recently offered to the kids in our school district here in SK, but the parents had to give their permission first.”

    Parent’s always have to give their permission for vaccines. Lots of vaccines are required for school enrollment. Back when new vaccines were wiping out diseases that many had actually seen or known folks who had been affected, it didn’t take much convincing to get them to vaccinate their kids. The tiny risk of the vaccine was seen as a fair trade off to avoid a gruesome or fatal illness. As vaccines target illnesses that are less prevalent, people will naturally want to consider the risk of the vaccine vs. both the likelihood and the consequence of infection.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “BTW, the same immunizations were recently offered to the kids in our school district here in SK, but the parents had to give their permission first.”

    Parent’s always have to give their permission for vaccines. Lots of vaccines are required for school enrollment. Back when new vaccines were wiping out diseases that many had actually seen or known folks who had been affected, it didn’t take much convincing to get them to vaccinate their kids. The tiny risk of the vaccine was seen as a fair trade off to avoid a gruesome or fatal illness. As vaccines target illnesses that are less prevalent, people will naturally want to consider the risk of the vaccine vs. both the likelihood and the consequence of infection.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Just a little pragmatic note here.

    What if this goes to the Supreme Court?

    There are six Catholics, three Jews on the court.

    They just made a unanimous decision in favor of religious liberty in the Hosanna Tabor school case.

    I think the Catholics have a pretty good shot of winning if this goes to court.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Just a little pragmatic note here.

    What if this goes to the Supreme Court?

    There are six Catholics, three Jews on the court.

    They just made a unanimous decision in favor of religious liberty in the Hosanna Tabor school case.

    I think the Catholics have a pretty good shot of winning if this goes to court.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sg – you miss my point. I’m personaly strongly pro-vaccine (with the exception of common viral diseases, except for those with poorimmune systems – here I’m referring to flu vaccines etc. ). But the issue at stake here is not so much vaccines as the freedom of people to choose vaccines for “less prevalent illnesses” as you call them – and if you caught my reference, the over-riding of personal freedom in such cases by politicians who are dancing like marionets to big pharma is certainly not limited to Democrats.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sg – you miss my point. I’m personaly strongly pro-vaccine (with the exception of common viral diseases, except for those with poorimmune systems – here I’m referring to flu vaccines etc. ). But the issue at stake here is not so much vaccines as the freedom of people to choose vaccines for “less prevalent illnesses” as you call them – and if you caught my reference, the over-riding of personal freedom in such cases by politicians who are dancing like marionets to big pharma is certainly not limited to Democrats.

  • Tom Hering

    “What if this goes to the Supreme Court?”

    No chance they’d rule in favor of corporations. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    “What if this goes to the Supreme Court?”

    No chance they’d rule in favor of corporations. :-D

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “the over-riding of personal freedom in such cases by politicians who are dancing like marionets to big pharma is certainly not limited to Democrats.”

    There is no over-riding of personal freedom. Anyone can get a waiver to any vaccine. Once again, I will note the pragmatic angle. Adding a vaccine to the list of required vaccines means that you can get it free at the county health clinics. If it is not required, then those clinics probably wouldn’t offer it free to any school aged kid. When the vaccine came out, New Mexico’s governor did a clever work around that didn’t put the vaccine on the required list but did make it available for free. I thought that was pretty politically astute. Since Canada has a different health system, it probably is logistically different to offer new vaccines than it is here in all the different states with all their different ways of administering things.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “the over-riding of personal freedom in such cases by politicians who are dancing like marionets to big pharma is certainly not limited to Democrats.”

    There is no over-riding of personal freedom. Anyone can get a waiver to any vaccine. Once again, I will note the pragmatic angle. Adding a vaccine to the list of required vaccines means that you can get it free at the county health clinics. If it is not required, then those clinics probably wouldn’t offer it free to any school aged kid. When the vaccine came out, New Mexico’s governor did a clever work around that didn’t put the vaccine on the required list but did make it available for free. I thought that was pretty politically astute. Since Canada has a different health system, it probably is logistically different to offer new vaccines than it is here in all the different states with all their different ways of administering things.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 10

    I think the legislature is more pro corporation than the court. That is not to say the court is not pro corporation. The problem is in the legal reasoning. The Constitution specifically and boldly protects religious freedom, so it seems it would have to have some angle to address that. What exactly that would be, I don’t know. They might argue that the employee would have thus and such right, but I don’t know enough to speculate on how that would go.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 10

    I think the legislature is more pro corporation than the court. That is not to say the court is not pro corporation. The problem is in the legal reasoning. The Constitution specifically and boldly protects religious freedom, so it seems it would have to have some angle to address that. What exactly that would be, I don’t know. They might argue that the employee would have thus and such right, but I don’t know enough to speculate on how that would go.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    sg: You miss my reference: Perry. Texas. HPV. Get it? It happens on both sides. Of course, that doesn’t make it right.

    In Canada, each province and territory does things different as well, btw (Just to dispel some myths I’ve noticed over the last couple of days in some very heated debates around here). It is essentially 13 different systems. Compliance to the Canada Health Act is not forced, it is voluntary – A province or Territory could opt out of it, partially or fully (and thus lose some or all Federal funding – Alberta, for instance, has lost some funding due to the introduction of hybrid private/public system). There is no such thing as a National Health Service in Canada. The CHA deals essentialy wth how the system is financed, not with the nitty gritty of delivery.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    sg: You miss my reference: Perry. Texas. HPV. Get it? It happens on both sides. Of course, that doesn’t make it right.

    In Canada, each province and territory does things different as well, btw (Just to dispel some myths I’ve noticed over the last couple of days in some very heated debates around here). It is essentially 13 different systems. Compliance to the Canada Health Act is not forced, it is voluntary – A province or Territory could opt out of it, partially or fully (and thus lose some or all Federal funding – Alberta, for instance, has lost some funding due to the introduction of hybrid private/public system). There is no such thing as a National Health Service in Canada. The CHA deals essentialy wth how the system is financed, not with the nitty gritty of delivery.

  • kenneth

    Is obama motivated? God help us he is lustying to make us think he the Savior is! This wrethced administration is the politbureau encompassing all times, if the God “awful” obamist’s really get control life will have ceased as we know it. The presidente El O–bama is lusting for power! He may even be so naive to believe he can save the world. Born again of any religion whatsoever, he is all things to all people. If he is the secular St Paul then, without distinction every one shall be consumed! Dead to thinking as it will have nothing of reality with which to do.

    The Man is not only a cynical rogue but he makes all religious value to drop out of an empty sky. Is he anything and or nothing. Have it either way: christian –Buddha_Krishna, Jimmy Carter_? bugaboo, Hitler, but more to the liking of Stalin!!!

    What more can postmoderism say than what this Man supposes he is? How can anyone in the bosh of postmmodernism come to any distinction, no religion but my tyranical diction–Jesus, the hope of the ages will be as irrelevant as any supposed reality that could not and will not be. Just maybe this guy is the Rapper of all times and woeful in all places.

    Seriously this next election has more ramifications than I have every dreamed of considering; the scope of the supposed “real change” is so abysmally spouted out of a mouth which speaketh not. Speeches will have gone if the man is to reign longer than a few more months. Communication will be no more as language that refers to external reality is wasted on the meaningless rants of secular religion. In short we will have nothing, nothing but the destroyer of worlds; Her Krishna will reign with Kali. Bezelbbub will have won. Where o death is thy sting! And postmoderns will rant a rap unparalled from time immemorial. It’s sting will have killed all. Life will have turned into a cold death. Perhaps maybe we should vote and surely we need to pray inceasing. Orwell had nothing on our President. Pray unceasingly pray, pray unceasing.

  • kenneth

    Is obama motivated? God help us he is lustying to make us think he the Savior is! This wrethced administration is the politbureau encompassing all times, if the God “awful” obamist’s really get control life will have ceased as we know it. The presidente El O–bama is lusting for power! He may even be so naive to believe he can save the world. Born again of any religion whatsoever, he is all things to all people. If he is the secular St Paul then, without distinction every one shall be consumed! Dead to thinking as it will have nothing of reality with which to do.

    The Man is not only a cynical rogue but he makes all religious value to drop out of an empty sky. Is he anything and or nothing. Have it either way: christian –Buddha_Krishna, Jimmy Carter_? bugaboo, Hitler, but more to the liking of Stalin!!!

    What more can postmoderism say than what this Man supposes he is? How can anyone in the bosh of postmmodernism come to any distinction, no religion but my tyranical diction–Jesus, the hope of the ages will be as irrelevant as any supposed reality that could not and will not be. Just maybe this guy is the Rapper of all times and woeful in all places.

    Seriously this next election has more ramifications than I have every dreamed of considering; the scope of the supposed “real change” is so abysmally spouted out of a mouth which speaketh not. Speeches will have gone if the man is to reign longer than a few more months. Communication will be no more as language that refers to external reality is wasted on the meaningless rants of secular religion. In short we will have nothing, nothing but the destroyer of worlds; Her Krishna will reign with Kali. Bezelbbub will have won. Where o death is thy sting! And postmoderns will rant a rap unparalled from time immemorial. It’s sting will have killed all. Life will have turned into a cold death. Perhaps maybe we should vote and surely we need to pray inceasing. Orwell had nothing on our President. Pray unceasingly pray, pray unceasing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I live in Texas. I know you are referring to Perry. But I don’t know what you think is so wrong and happens on both sides. I just wanted to point out that requiring vaccines is a general public health service not an absolute requirement on specific individuals against their will. Required vaccines are highly endorsed and as needed, free to those who can’t afford them. It is not some draconian attack on freedom.

    I have to laugh at the voluntary but if you don’t participate, your taxes will pay for service for everyone in the country except you! I bet every industry on Earth would love that deal. You don’t have to use our service. You just have to pay for it!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I live in Texas. I know you are referring to Perry. But I don’t know what you think is so wrong and happens on both sides. I just wanted to point out that requiring vaccines is a general public health service not an absolute requirement on specific individuals against their will. Required vaccines are highly endorsed and as needed, free to those who can’t afford them. It is not some draconian attack on freedom.

    I have to laugh at the voluntary but if you don’t participate, your taxes will pay for service for everyone in the country except you! I bet every industry on Earth would love that deal. You don’t have to use our service. You just have to pay for it!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oooh whee, Kenneth. President Obama is just a man, with the usual attendant weaknesses. He probably means as well as anyone does. It isn’t about him as much as it is about the system. It is our responsibility to choose wise leaders. Obama is a little too idealistic and not wise enough, and yes, he is fallen like the rest of us. The über evil thing is just goofy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oooh whee, Kenneth. President Obama is just a man, with the usual attendant weaknesses. He probably means as well as anyone does. It isn’t about him as much as it is about the system. It is our responsibility to choose wise leaders. Obama is a little too idealistic and not wise enough, and yes, he is fallen like the rest of us. The über evil thing is just goofy.

  • Jon

    I just about wretched during this morning’s national prayer breakfast speech when the president talked about the virtue of “defending the weakest among us.” He tp danced all around abortion when giving his platitudes about what it means to him to love his neighbor.

  • Jon

    I just about wretched during this morning’s national prayer breakfast speech when the president talked about the virtue of “defending the weakest among us.” He tp danced all around abortion when giving his platitudes about what it means to him to love his neighbor.

  • Tom Hering

    “The über evil thing is just goofy.”

    You have no idea. I remember a nurse, with whom I’d chatted just a little bit about the 2008 election (revealing my liberal politics), bringing me an “Obama is the Antichrist” article she’d quickly printed off the internet. And this was while I was sitting there undergoing chemotherapy. Sheesh.

  • Tom Hering

    “The über evil thing is just goofy.”

    You have no idea. I remember a nurse, with whom I’d chatted just a little bit about the 2008 election (revealing my liberal politics), bringing me an “Obama is the Antichrist” article she’d quickly printed off the internet. And this was while I was sitting there undergoing chemotherapy. Sheesh.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    This thread is getting unreal. I’m slowly backing away…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    This thread is getting unreal. I’m slowly backing away…..

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Tom, Obama is anything BUT a centrist.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Tom, Obama is anything BUT a centrist.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    BTW, for the record, if this goes to the Supreme Court it will get shot down, not just because of the religious makeup of the court, but also because it’s infringement upon the freedom of religion, plain and simple.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    BTW, for the record, if this goes to the Supreme Court it will get shot down, not just because of the religious makeup of the court, but also because it’s infringement upon the freedom of religion, plain and simple.

  • #4 Kitty

    @ #14
    I call Poe

  • #4 Kitty

    @ #14
    I call Poe

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Kitty, I call Poe’s corollary.
    :) Or not. You decide ;)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Kitty, I call Poe’s corollary.
    :) Or not. You decide ;)

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Give a shout out if you voted for Obama!

    I did…

    not!!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Give a shout out if you voted for Obama!

    I did…

    not!!

  • DonS

    sg @ 7: Parents do NOT always have to give their permission for vaccines. Here in California, we passed a law permitting governmental authorities to administer the HPV vaccine to children as young as 12 WITHOUT parental permission: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/10/11/california12-year-olds-to-get-hpv-vaccine-without-parental-consent/

    Never assume that your freedoms are safe, or that our rights to direct the upbringing of our children are absolute. They are always under pressure from those who think they know better than parents.

  • DonS

    sg @ 7: Parents do NOT always have to give their permission for vaccines. Here in California, we passed a law permitting governmental authorities to administer the HPV vaccine to children as young as 12 WITHOUT parental permission: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/10/11/california12-year-olds-to-get-hpv-vaccine-without-parental-consent/

    Never assume that your freedoms are safe, or that our rights to direct the upbringing of our children are absolute. They are always under pressure from those who think they know better than parents.

  • DonS

    Tom @ 1: So your view is that the reason these particular Obamacare regulations were written to so narrowly construe our 1st Amendment right to free exercise of religion is because corporations wrote them? So that they can sell more abortifacients? You got any evidence for this?

    If this was just a corporatist thing, and doesn’t reflect the views of the Obama administration, then how do you explain the arguments the Obama administration forwarded in the Hosanna-Tabor case? Did evil corporations argue that case on behalf of Obama as well?

    If Obama is that much in the clutches of evil corporatists, I would assume there is no chance that you would vote to re-elect him ;-)

  • DonS

    Tom @ 1: So your view is that the reason these particular Obamacare regulations were written to so narrowly construe our 1st Amendment right to free exercise of religion is because corporations wrote them? So that they can sell more abortifacients? You got any evidence for this?

    If this was just a corporatist thing, and doesn’t reflect the views of the Obama administration, then how do you explain the arguments the Obama administration forwarded in the Hosanna-Tabor case? Did evil corporations argue that case on behalf of Obama as well?

    If Obama is that much in the clutches of evil corporatists, I would assume there is no chance that you would vote to re-elect him ;-)

  • Grace

    Jon @ 17

    “He tp danced all around abortion when giving his platitudes about what it means to him to love his neighbor.”

    Obama quiped this one just last month, January 23rd.

    Obama Defends Roe v. Wade As Way for ‘Our Daughters’ to Have Same Chance As Sons to ‘Fulfill Their Dreams’

    By Fred Lucas
    January 23, 2012

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-defends-roe-v-wade-way-our-daughters-have-same-chance-sons-fulfill-their-dreams

    Obama hasn’t a clue as to who his neighbor is.

    Obama: I Pushed Dodd-Frank And Health Care Reform Because Of Christ
    At National Prayer Breakfast, Obama grounds his controversial policies in the Bible. Tax hikes for rich “[coincide] with Jesus’s teaching.” posted Feb 2, 2012

    “And so when I talk about our financial institutions playing by the same rules as folks on Main Street, when I talk about making sure insurance companies aren’t discriminating against those who are already sick, or making sure that unscrupulous lenders aren’t taking advantage of the most vulnerable among us, I do so because I genuinely believe it will make the economy stronger for everybody. But I also do it because I know that far too many neighbors in our country have been hurt and treated unfairly over the last few years, and I believe in God’s command to ‘love thy neighbor as thyself.’”

    “I know the version of that Golden Rule is found in every major religion and every set of beliefs — from Hinduism to Islam to Judaism to the writings of Plato,” Obama added.”

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/obama-i-pushed-dodd-frank-and-health-care-reform

    Obama supports abortion, the killing of the weakest. The “neighbor” is the unborn infant in the mother’s womb. How much more can one be as a neighbor if not resting in the womb, God’s creation!

  • Grace

    Jon @ 17

    “He tp danced all around abortion when giving his platitudes about what it means to him to love his neighbor.”

    Obama quiped this one just last month, January 23rd.

    Obama Defends Roe v. Wade As Way for ‘Our Daughters’ to Have Same Chance As Sons to ‘Fulfill Their Dreams’

    By Fred Lucas
    January 23, 2012

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-defends-roe-v-wade-way-our-daughters-have-same-chance-sons-fulfill-their-dreams

    Obama hasn’t a clue as to who his neighbor is.

    Obama: I Pushed Dodd-Frank And Health Care Reform Because Of Christ
    At National Prayer Breakfast, Obama grounds his controversial policies in the Bible. Tax hikes for rich “[coincide] with Jesus’s teaching.” posted Feb 2, 2012

    “And so when I talk about our financial institutions playing by the same rules as folks on Main Street, when I talk about making sure insurance companies aren’t discriminating against those who are already sick, or making sure that unscrupulous lenders aren’t taking advantage of the most vulnerable among us, I do so because I genuinely believe it will make the economy stronger for everybody. But I also do it because I know that far too many neighbors in our country have been hurt and treated unfairly over the last few years, and I believe in God’s command to ‘love thy neighbor as thyself.’”

    “I know the version of that Golden Rule is found in every major religion and every set of beliefs — from Hinduism to Islam to Judaism to the writings of Plato,” Obama added.”

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/zekejmiller/obama-i-pushed-dodd-frank-and-health-care-reform

    Obama supports abortion, the killing of the weakest. The “neighbor” is the unborn infant in the mother’s womb. How much more can one be as a neighbor if not resting in the womb, God’s creation!

  • Med Student

    Aside from the religious freedom issues, why should any employer be required to provide insurance that offers free contraceptives/abortifacients/sterilization? These are not, except in some special circumstances (i.e. use of hormonal birth control to treat very heavy periods), strictly health-care related. There’s no such thing as a free lunch – all these “free” services will be paid for with higher premiums for everyone. Those not intending to use contraception, for whatever reason, will be paying for all those who will mostly want to use it to have consequence-free sex. It’s not inherently wrong to want to have sex without getting pregnant, but why should everyone else have to help pay for it? This is true for a whole host of mandated coverage items that everyone ends up paying higher premiums for but few will use and many would rather do without. I’d much rather have lower premiums than have free substance abuse counseling or free birth control, but the increasing insurance mandates make it harder and harder to get what one really wants and needs from an insurance plan for a reasonable price

  • Med Student

    Aside from the religious freedom issues, why should any employer be required to provide insurance that offers free contraceptives/abortifacients/sterilization? These are not, except in some special circumstances (i.e. use of hormonal birth control to treat very heavy periods), strictly health-care related. There’s no such thing as a free lunch – all these “free” services will be paid for with higher premiums for everyone. Those not intending to use contraception, for whatever reason, will be paying for all those who will mostly want to use it to have consequence-free sex. It’s not inherently wrong to want to have sex without getting pregnant, but why should everyone else have to help pay for it? This is true for a whole host of mandated coverage items that everyone ends up paying higher premiums for but few will use and many would rather do without. I’d much rather have lower premiums than have free substance abuse counseling or free birth control, but the increasing insurance mandates make it harder and harder to get what one really wants and needs from an insurance plan for a reasonable price

  • DonS

    Med Student @ 28: Exactly.

    More to the point, the whole idea of regulations requiring an employer to provide health insurance offering certain mandated benefits or NOTHING AT ALL is insanity. Any coverage the employer chooses to provide is coverage the employee doesn’t have to obtain in some other way.

  • DonS

    Med Student @ 28: Exactly.

    More to the point, the whole idea of regulations requiring an employer to provide health insurance offering certain mandated benefits or NOTHING AT ALL is insanity. Any coverage the employer chooses to provide is coverage the employee doesn’t have to obtain in some other way.

  • SKPeterson

    Med Student and DonS – Because this is treated the same way abortion is. Abortion is not treated as an elective, or cosmetic, surgery, which it most certainly is – even if it did not destroy another life. But, because it is abortion and must be protected, teenage girls who would need their parent’s permission to get a nose job, a breast enlargement, a collagen treatment for their lips, or even get a tattoo, have whole agencies advocating that abortion should be effectively an unregulated medical service in which the standard rules don’t have to apply. If this passes and fails to be overturned birth control, abortifacients and abortion itself will be easier and less expensive to obtain than good cold medicine.

  • SKPeterson

    Med Student and DonS – Because this is treated the same way abortion is. Abortion is not treated as an elective, or cosmetic, surgery, which it most certainly is – even if it did not destroy another life. But, because it is abortion and must be protected, teenage girls who would need their parent’s permission to get a nose job, a breast enlargement, a collagen treatment for their lips, or even get a tattoo, have whole agencies advocating that abortion should be effectively an unregulated medical service in which the standard rules don’t have to apply. If this passes and fails to be overturned birth control, abortifacients and abortion itself will be easier and less expensive to obtain than good cold medicine.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    In Canada though, where you all know that the Goverment covers most of these things, abortion figures have been falling for some years now. Furthermore, it is not as if the GOP is going to stop it anyway.

    Can I make a radical, contentious observation? Abortion etc will drop as the Baby Boomers get beyond child-bearing years. This is more than just a population dynamics thing, it is a generational culture. Anyone care to challenge that statement?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    In Canada though, where you all know that the Goverment covers most of these things, abortion figures have been falling for some years now. Furthermore, it is not as if the GOP is going to stop it anyway.

    Can I make a radical, contentious observation? Abortion etc will drop as the Baby Boomers get beyond child-bearing years. This is more than just a population dynamics thing, it is a generational culture. Anyone care to challenge that statement?

  • Grace

    Canada is unable to give “ACCURATE” numbers of abortions as noted below in BOLD

    Canadian Center for Bio-Ethical Reform

    Canadian Center for Bio-Ethical Reform

    Granted, from 2002 to 2005 that rate was improving (32.1 in 2002, 31 in 2003, and 29.7 abortions per 100 live births in 2004 ), but the numbers were still higher than the 1994 rate.

    Secondly, it is important to realize there are unborn babies being killed in Canada who aren’t factored into the available statistics so the number of abortion deaths is much higher.

    There are a variety of reasons for this:

    In Canada, unborn children can be killed by methods of birth control which act after fertilization (chemical abortifacients). However, it is impossible to determine how many lives are lost this way.

    – Some reproductive technologies result in the creation and destruction of human embryos.

    – There is no legal requirement for the collection of data on induced abortions performed in Canada. The Supreme Court struck down such a law in 1988. This has resulted in incomplete reporting with some clinics not reporting the abortions they perform.

    Because of these problems, the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) “has estimated that as of the 2000 data year the Therapeutic Abortion Survey database represents approximately 90% of all abortions performed in Canada on Canadian residents.”

    Moreover, Statistics Canada even admitted that their statistics for the number of abortions in 2006 must be used “with caution.” That’s because they can’t provide the number of abortions that year for New Brunswick, Manitoba, and British Columbia saying the information is “too unreliable to be published.” All of this tragically indicates little to no change in behaviour towards abortion.

    Finally, it is interesting to note that a government agency that can accurately count the number of privately paid for toilets in Canada,viii cannot count the number of publicly-funded abortions.

    http://www.cbrinfo.com/challenges-stats.html

  • Grace

    Canada is unable to give “ACCURATE” numbers of abortions as noted below in BOLD

    Canadian Center for Bio-Ethical Reform

    Canadian Center for Bio-Ethical Reform

    Granted, from 2002 to 2005 that rate was improving (32.1 in 2002, 31 in 2003, and 29.7 abortions per 100 live births in 2004 ), but the numbers were still higher than the 1994 rate.

    Secondly, it is important to realize there are unborn babies being killed in Canada who aren’t factored into the available statistics so the number of abortion deaths is much higher.

    There are a variety of reasons for this:

    In Canada, unborn children can be killed by methods of birth control which act after fertilization (chemical abortifacients). However, it is impossible to determine how many lives are lost this way.

    – Some reproductive technologies result in the creation and destruction of human embryos.

    – There is no legal requirement for the collection of data on induced abortions performed in Canada. The Supreme Court struck down such a law in 1988. This has resulted in incomplete reporting with some clinics not reporting the abortions they perform.

    Because of these problems, the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) “has estimated that as of the 2000 data year the Therapeutic Abortion Survey database represents approximately 90% of all abortions performed in Canada on Canadian residents.”

    Moreover, Statistics Canada even admitted that their statistics for the number of abortions in 2006 must be used “with caution.” That’s because they can’t provide the number of abortions that year for New Brunswick, Manitoba, and British Columbia saying the information is “too unreliable to be published.” All of this tragically indicates little to no change in behaviour towards abortion.

    Finally, it is interesting to note that a government agency that can accurately count the number of privately paid for toilets in Canada,viii cannot count the number of publicly-funded abortions.

    http://www.cbrinfo.com/challenges-stats.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Parents do NOT always have to give their permission for vaccines. Here in California, we passed a law permitting governmental authorities to administer the HPV vaccine to children as young as 12 WITHOUT parental permission:”

    @ 25

    Okay, I sit corrected. But, what you describe is not what Perry did.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Parents do NOT always have to give their permission for vaccines. Here in California, we passed a law permitting governmental authorities to administer the HPV vaccine to children as young as 12 WITHOUT parental permission:”

    @ 25

    Okay, I sit corrected. But, what you describe is not what Perry did.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Abortion etc will drop as the Baby Boomers get beyond child-bearing years. This is more than just a population dynamics thing, it is a generational culture. Anyone care to challenge that statement?”

    Sure. It is not just culture. It is selection.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Abortion etc will drop as the Baby Boomers get beyond child-bearing years. This is more than just a population dynamics thing, it is a generational culture. Anyone care to challenge that statement?”

    Sure. It is not just culture. It is selection.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

  • Ray

    And on the same day, there is this wonderful bit of testifying:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/02/obama-links-economic-policies-to-christian-faith/

  • Ray

    And on the same day, there is this wonderful bit of testifying:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/02/obama-links-economic-policies-to-christian-faith/

  • DonS

    sg @ 33: Agreed. My only purpose was to once again preach that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Nothing is static — there is always someone or some institution, often wearing governmental garb, trying to reduce individual liberties in the name of the “common good”.

  • DonS

    sg @ 33: Agreed. My only purpose was to once again preach that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. Nothing is static — there is always someone or some institution, often wearing governmental garb, trying to reduce individual liberties in the name of the “common good”.

  • Grace

    Ray @ 35

    I post a similar article, on the same subject – post 27 – “National Prayer Breakfast”
    ‘Obama: I Pushed Dodd-Frank And Health Care Reform Because Of Christ

    Did you read that one?

  • Grace

    Ray @ 35

    I post a similar article, on the same subject – post 27 – “National Prayer Breakfast”
    ‘Obama: I Pushed Dodd-Frank And Health Care Reform Because Of Christ

    Did you read that one?

  • formerly just steve

    Yeah, yeah, we get it; tu quoque. That’s getting really, really old.

  • formerly just steve

    Yeah, yeah, we get it; tu quoque. That’s getting really, really old.

  • DonS

    Just to put the lie to Tom’s speculation @ 1 that these regulations were just written by corporations that sell birth control, and Obama really didn’t have much to do with them, see http://hosted2.ap.org/txdam/e109e277e48c4e219e07a1d4710177b3/Article_2012-02-02-Birth%20Control-Religious%20Employers/id-2147434af5494cf1affa8806d1dcc101

    Note how vigorously Jay Carney defends the regulations, as written, as a means to “protect women”, and makes very clear that there will be no reconsideration of this issue by the administration.

  • DonS

    Just to put the lie to Tom’s speculation @ 1 that these regulations were just written by corporations that sell birth control, and Obama really didn’t have much to do with them, see http://hosted2.ap.org/txdam/e109e277e48c4e219e07a1d4710177b3/Article_2012-02-02-Birth%20Control-Religious%20Employers/id-2147434af5494cf1affa8806d1dcc101

    Note how vigorously Jay Carney defends the regulations, as written, as a means to “protect women”, and makes very clear that there will be no reconsideration of this issue by the administration.

  • Tom Hering

    Where did I speculate that “Obama really didn’t have much to do with them”? My thought @ 1 was that “maybe it’s really about a centrist President …”

  • Tom Hering

    Where did I speculate that “Obama really didn’t have much to do with them”? My thought @ 1 was that “maybe it’s really about a centrist President …”

  • DonS

    Tom @ 40: Maybe I misunderstood your implication when you said this:

    But maybe it’s really about a centrist President whose healthcare reform was written by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Industries that use law and government to force us to buy their products. Industries that want expand their markets, and the forced consumption of their products, right into the Church.

    You seemed to be saying that industry wrote the regulations, not the Obama administration. Now, maybe, you’re saying, instead, that his administration wrote them to assist the pharma and insurance industries? And then Carney defended them using the false premise that the regs were designed to help women?

    Is that better? Considering the corner you’re currently in, I think it’s time for you to make a snide joke, and a winky face, don’t you? ;-)

  • DonS

    Tom @ 40: Maybe I misunderstood your implication when you said this:

    But maybe it’s really about a centrist President whose healthcare reform was written by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Industries that use law and government to force us to buy their products. Industries that want expand their markets, and the forced consumption of their products, right into the Church.

    You seemed to be saying that industry wrote the regulations, not the Obama administration. Now, maybe, you’re saying, instead, that his administration wrote them to assist the pharma and insurance industries? And then Carney defended them using the false premise that the regs were designed to help women?

    Is that better? Considering the corner you’re currently in, I think it’s time for you to make a snide joke, and a winky face, don’t you? ;-)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SG – I don’t agree with yopur selection theory explanation. Becausse that will only be valid once the population actually drops. But that is not happening.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SG – I don’t agree with yopur selection theory explanation. Becausse that will only be valid once the population actually drops. But that is not happening.

  • Tom Hering

    Don @ 41, I’ll spell it out for you as clearly as I know how. The insurance and pharmaceutical industries wrote the bill for the administration. A bill from which they, and the administration, and the Democratic Party will profit nicely for years to come. Whether the industries literally wrote the bill, or “wrote” it by lobbying, doesn’t make any difference. It’s still crony capitalism.

    Why do you think I’m trying to defend Obama in this case? Just because I’ve defended him at other times? Haven’t I said I’m going to have to hold my nose to vote for him again? (A lot of Republicans, too, are going to have to hold their noses this year – aren’t they?)

    Actually, my thoughts on who I’ll vote for this year are evolving. Without a doubt, I’ll vote the straight Democratic ticket for Wisconsin offices. But nationally, it depends. If Newt is the candidate, and it looks like he could win, I’ll vote for Obama. If Romney is the candidate, then it won’t matter to me whether he or Obama wins, and I’ll vote my conscience. Third party. Most likely Rocky Anderson. (Romney doesn’t worry me. He’s talking the conservative talk right now, but he won’t walk the conservative walk if elected. He’s too much the pragmatist – just like Obama.)

  • Tom Hering

    Don @ 41, I’ll spell it out for you as clearly as I know how. The insurance and pharmaceutical industries wrote the bill for the administration. A bill from which they, and the administration, and the Democratic Party will profit nicely for years to come. Whether the industries literally wrote the bill, or “wrote” it by lobbying, doesn’t make any difference. It’s still crony capitalism.

    Why do you think I’m trying to defend Obama in this case? Just because I’ve defended him at other times? Haven’t I said I’m going to have to hold my nose to vote for him again? (A lot of Republicans, too, are going to have to hold their noses this year – aren’t they?)

    Actually, my thoughts on who I’ll vote for this year are evolving. Without a doubt, I’ll vote the straight Democratic ticket for Wisconsin offices. But nationally, it depends. If Newt is the candidate, and it looks like he could win, I’ll vote for Obama. If Romney is the candidate, then it won’t matter to me whether he or Obama wins, and I’ll vote my conscience. Third party. Most likely Rocky Anderson. (Romney doesn’t worry me. He’s talking the conservative talk right now, but he won’t walk the conservative walk if elected. He’s too much the pragmatist – just like Obama.)

  • Grace

    Tom at 18

    - – - – “And this was while I was sitting there undergoing chemotherapy. – - – -

    Tom, when I read your comment my heart ached for you. You know my background, and all my posts, so it shouldn’t surprise you that your words would have no effect on me. I will pray for you, that your health will be good.

    - – - – Tom at 43 “Why do you think I’m trying to defend Obama in this case? Just because I’ve defended him at other times? Haven’t I said I’m going to have to hold my nose to vote for him again? (A lot of Republicans, too, are going to have to hold their noses this year – aren’t they?” – - – -

    “HOLDING NOSES” ? – no Tom, I will not vote for Obama or Romney. Some of which you already know, others you haven’t a clue. Not one of the aforementioned candidates is worth voting for. Newt Gingrich is the only one, who can stand, backbone ready to take on those who wish to destroy this country.

    Medicine is a very important issue. If the richest of these candidates really cared they would put their money where the need was. If the other party candidate, were to consider how hard it is to earn the money, then he would understand that the taxes, which he would impose/imposes would eliminate business, because they can’t pay the high taxes. Therefore, they can hire no one. Most likely will ‘lay off’ those they believe are expendable.

    - – - – ” But nationally, it depends. If Newt is the candidate, and it looks like he could win, I’ll vote for Obama. If Romney is the candidate, then it won’t matter to me whether he or Obama wins, and I’ll vote my conscience.” – - – -

    Tom, please listen to me. Obama doesn’t make sense, he doesn’t understand the value of good medicine, or how it can be paid for. As a socialist, he believes, as he always has, (with reservations) that to take from the rich will insure the health and welfare of those who don’t have it. He may have believed this idea back in his university days, but today? after his few years as president, he knows, he understands that it doesn’t work, but to his disgrace, he continues. He also must understand that he is out of his league, no matter how ‘clever he shows his stuff’ but……. Obama is determined to institute a SOCIALIST program for those who cannot see their way clear to find an answer. They are so sick, tired and worn out, they will grasp at straws.

    I like Santorum, however Newt Gingrich has the brains, and ability to RAMBO his way through this problem. It’s a huge mountain, but there are very few individuals who can disassemble the health and meds program. I believe, because of what I have witnessed, that Gingrich is capable, willing and ready to tackle the tough job ahead.

    I wish you well Tom, and I will pray for you. God bless you.

  • Grace

    Tom at 18

    - – - – “And this was while I was sitting there undergoing chemotherapy. – - – -

    Tom, when I read your comment my heart ached for you. You know my background, and all my posts, so it shouldn’t surprise you that your words would have no effect on me. I will pray for you, that your health will be good.

    - – - – Tom at 43 “Why do you think I’m trying to defend Obama in this case? Just because I’ve defended him at other times? Haven’t I said I’m going to have to hold my nose to vote for him again? (A lot of Republicans, too, are going to have to hold their noses this year – aren’t they?” – - – -

    “HOLDING NOSES” ? – no Tom, I will not vote for Obama or Romney. Some of which you already know, others you haven’t a clue. Not one of the aforementioned candidates is worth voting for. Newt Gingrich is the only one, who can stand, backbone ready to take on those who wish to destroy this country.

    Medicine is a very important issue. If the richest of these candidates really cared they would put their money where the need was. If the other party candidate, were to consider how hard it is to earn the money, then he would understand that the taxes, which he would impose/imposes would eliminate business, because they can’t pay the high taxes. Therefore, they can hire no one. Most likely will ‘lay off’ those they believe are expendable.

    - – - – ” But nationally, it depends. If Newt is the candidate, and it looks like he could win, I’ll vote for Obama. If Romney is the candidate, then it won’t matter to me whether he or Obama wins, and I’ll vote my conscience.” – - – -

    Tom, please listen to me. Obama doesn’t make sense, he doesn’t understand the value of good medicine, or how it can be paid for. As a socialist, he believes, as he always has, (with reservations) that to take from the rich will insure the health and welfare of those who don’t have it. He may have believed this idea back in his university days, but today? after his few years as president, he knows, he understands that it doesn’t work, but to his disgrace, he continues. He also must understand that he is out of his league, no matter how ‘clever he shows his stuff’ but……. Obama is determined to institute a SOCIALIST program for those who cannot see their way clear to find an answer. They are so sick, tired and worn out, they will grasp at straws.

    I like Santorum, however Newt Gingrich has the brains, and ability to RAMBO his way through this problem. It’s a huge mountain, but there are very few individuals who can disassemble the health and meds program. I believe, because of what I have witnessed, that Gingrich is capable, willing and ready to tackle the tough job ahead.

    I wish you well Tom, and I will pray for you. God bless you.

  • Grace

    Post 44 Should read:

    Tom, when I read your comment my heart ached for you. You know my background, and all my posts, so it shouldn’t surprise you that your words would have a great effect on me. I will pray for you, that your health will be good.

  • Grace

    Post 44 Should read:

    Tom, when I read your comment my heart ached for you. You know my background, and all my posts, so it shouldn’t surprise you that your words would have a great effect on me. I will pray for you, that your health will be good.

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, thank you for the kind words and your prayers. But no need to worry. I’ve been free of cancer for three years now. Even a year ago, my oncologist felt there was very little chance of cancer reoccuring.

    As for Obama being a Socialist … I wish. :-D

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, thank you for the kind words and your prayers. But no need to worry. I’ve been free of cancer for three years now. Even a year ago, my oncologist felt there was very little chance of cancer reoccuring.

    As for Obama being a Socialist … I wish. :-D

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I’m delighted to hear that you are “free of cancer for three years now” – that’s wonderful

    As for “socialism” it’s the worst medical plan, veiled within the idea, that taxes, money, or the rich will pay for the medical expenses which the ill cannot pay for – either with their own funds, or their insurance.

    One has only to look at Canada and England. Both countries have the worst medicine, based upon a ‘socialist’ ideal.

    I most likely will never convince you, but I have tried.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I’m delighted to hear that you are “free of cancer for three years now” – that’s wonderful

    As for “socialism” it’s the worst medical plan, veiled within the idea, that taxes, money, or the rich will pay for the medical expenses which the ill cannot pay for – either with their own funds, or their insurance.

    One has only to look at Canada and England. Both countries have the worst medicine, based upon a ‘socialist’ ideal.

    I most likely will never convince you, but I have tried.

  • formerly just steve

    Has anyone considered that its in the best interest of this administration’s ultimate goal of universal healthcare to create laws that highlight the drawbacks of employer-provided healthcare?

  • formerly just steve

    Has anyone considered that its in the best interest of this administration’s ultimate goal of universal healthcare to create laws that highlight the drawbacks of employer-provided healthcare?

  • fws

    back to gersons central contention: the governments regulation of works of mercy is a war on religion.

    This is true if we define religion as something man can do.

    It is not true if one is a Lutheran christian. As a Lutheran, there is nothing at all the government can do to abridge the faith in Christ that is ALONE the entire substance of what it is that makes me a Christian.

  • fws

    back to gersons central contention: the governments regulation of works of mercy is a war on religion.

    This is true if we define religion as something man can do.

    It is not true if one is a Lutheran christian. As a Lutheran, there is nothing at all the government can do to abridge the faith in Christ that is ALONE the entire substance of what it is that makes me a Christian.

  • kenneth

    SG I do not thnk the salvation question is in any way a goooofy one? Really if you have a president, no matter how motivated for doing good works he pbstructs any distinctive for free dom of religion. Especially when faith for a real object metaphiscally speaking, is verboten.

    So lets give Obama real consideration……..

  • kenneth

    SG I do not thnk the salvation question is in any way a goooofy one? Really if you have a president, no matter how motivated for doing good works he pbstructs any distinctive for free dom of religion. Especially when faith for a real object metaphiscally speaking, is verboten.

    So lets give Obama real consideration……..

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @42

    I don’t follow what you are saying. The population has dropped in plenty of places.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @42

    I don’t follow what you are saying. The population has dropped in plenty of places.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – “worst medicine”?

    Average life expectancy numbers, 2005 – 2010: Note I use these numbers, which is hard data, as opposed to quality of life, which, being soft data, will change according to who compiles it.

    Canada 80.7
    US 78.3
    UK 79.4
    France 80.7
    Germany 79.4

    And before you say it is because of race, or illegal immigrants or something, Puerto Rico had an average life expectancy of 78.7.

    Source – UN Statistics.

    Average Infant mortality – source CIA Factbook , year 2009.

    Canada 5.04
    US 6.26
    UK 4.85
    France 3.33
    Germany 3.99
    Puerto Rico: 8.42

    You are spouting nonsense, Grace. Pure and utter nonsense. Admit it.

    Oh yes, and then there is this – per capita health care spending – source OECD 2009 Data (in US$)

    Canada: $4363
    US: $7960
    UK: $3487
    France: $3978
    Germany: $4218

    Note, before I get accused all over again by all the jingoists out there. This is NOT an attack on the US. This is a statement of the facts to defend Canada, the UK and others from unwarranted attacks by no-nothings like Grace.THAT IS ALL.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – “worst medicine”?

    Average life expectancy numbers, 2005 – 2010: Note I use these numbers, which is hard data, as opposed to quality of life, which, being soft data, will change according to who compiles it.

    Canada 80.7
    US 78.3
    UK 79.4
    France 80.7
    Germany 79.4

    And before you say it is because of race, or illegal immigrants or something, Puerto Rico had an average life expectancy of 78.7.

    Source – UN Statistics.

    Average Infant mortality – source CIA Factbook , year 2009.

    Canada 5.04
    US 6.26
    UK 4.85
    France 3.33
    Germany 3.99
    Puerto Rico: 8.42

    You are spouting nonsense, Grace. Pure and utter nonsense. Admit it.

    Oh yes, and then there is this – per capita health care spending – source OECD 2009 Data (in US$)

    Canada: $4363
    US: $7960
    UK: $3487
    France: $3978
    Germany: $4218

    Note, before I get accused all over again by all the jingoists out there. This is NOT an attack on the US. This is a statement of the facts to defend Canada, the UK and others from unwarranted attacks by no-nothings like Grace.THAT IS ALL.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SG @ 51. But not overall – and the figures are for overall. You cannot extract localised data at will and explain regional data trends, while other data points simply do not support your thesis. Apples and oranges. Localised data to explain localised trends, or reginal data to explain regional trends but do not get the two confused.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SG @ 51. But not overall – and the figures are for overall. You cannot extract localised data at will and explain regional data trends, while other data points simply do not support your thesis. Apples and oranges. Localised data to explain localised trends, or reginal data to explain regional trends but do not get the two confused.

  • Grace

    Life expectancy numbers are not based on immigration, (which if they were, when it comes to the United States) the enormous illegals who have crossed our southern borders, the numbers would reflect DIFFERENTLY, but alas the numbers are skewed. Those from Canada don’t want to hear this, because they feel the need in defending their SOCIALIZED health care system which is abominable. Anyone who can afford to cross the border from Canada to the United States does so.

    Here is a story for all of those who believe SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE in the United States is a great idea. We have had many a hot debate on this blog about Canada’s health care – countless Canadians running to the U.S. when they needed excellent care, because the health system in Canada doesn’t work. Canadians are made to W A I T for surgery’s and procedures, so they come to the United States. Even the Newfoundland and Labrador Premier of Canada is coming to the U.S. for his surgery – It is obvious their doctors aren’t able to give the care needed.

    PERFECT EXAMPLE:

    Danny Williams going to U.S. for heart surgery
    February 2, 2010
    CBC News.

    "N.L. Premier Danny Williams is scheduled to have surgery this week. (CBC)
    Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.

    CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.

    The premier’s office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html

  • Grace

    Life expectancy numbers are not based on immigration, (which if they were, when it comes to the United States) the enormous illegals who have crossed our southern borders, the numbers would reflect DIFFERENTLY, but alas the numbers are skewed. Those from Canada don’t want to hear this, because they feel the need in defending their SOCIALIZED health care system which is abominable. Anyone who can afford to cross the border from Canada to the United States does so.

    Here is a story for all of those who believe SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE in the United States is a great idea. We have had many a hot debate on this blog about Canada’s health care – countless Canadians running to the U.S. when they needed excellent care, because the health system in Canada doesn’t work. Canadians are made to W A I T for surgery’s and procedures, so they come to the United States. Even the Newfoundland and Labrador Premier of Canada is coming to the U.S. for his surgery – It is obvious their doctors aren’t able to give the care needed.

    PERFECT EXAMPLE:

    Danny Williams going to U.S. for heart surgery
    February 2, 2010
    CBC News.

    "N.L. Premier Danny Williams is scheduled to have surgery this week. (CBC)
    Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams is set to undergo heart surgery this week in the United States.

    CBC News confirmed Monday that Williams, 60, left the province earlier in the day and will have surgery later in the week.

    The premier’s office provided few details, beyond confirming that he would have heart surgery and saying that it was not necessarily a routine procedure.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/02/01/nl-williams-heart-201.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @53

    I don’t think we are talking about the same thing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @53

    I don’t think we are talking about the same thing.

  • Grace

    sg @55

    You’re right, I agree with you.

    All too many Canadians confuse the subject of medicine, illegals, population, life expectancy, etc., they don’t live here, nor do they cope with the problems. Socialism is their master, that is key to understanding why capitalism escapes them.

  • Grace

    sg @55

    You’re right, I agree with you.

    All too many Canadians confuse the subject of medicine, illegals, population, life expectancy, etc., they don’t live here, nor do they cope with the problems. Socialism is their master, that is key to understanding why capitalism escapes them.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – That story is old news – and was discussed ad disected in the press here ad nauseum . And Danny Williams did that because Danny Williams was an ass that always did what Danny Williams wanted – you might not now it, but he also urged the voters to vote against the Conservatives because they wanted to cut the transfer payments to Newfounfland & Labrador, because of the latter’s newfound (unintended pun) oil wealth. He was a maverick. So you can hardly take anything he did or say seriously.

    also, no system is perfect, and I’m not praisinf our system uncritically at all. But your statement calling Canada’s and England’s health systems as the “worst medicine” is patently absurd. Sure, it can be better. But so could yours. Just look at the damn statistics.

    The actual waiting times for heart surgery, where it is not urgent, are not that long either. Urgent surgeries will always be done immediately, of course. But why tell you this, you’ve already made up your mind. And you are not answering the statistics either. Because you can’t.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – That story is old news – and was discussed ad disected in the press here ad nauseum . And Danny Williams did that because Danny Williams was an ass that always did what Danny Williams wanted – you might not now it, but he also urged the voters to vote against the Conservatives because they wanted to cut the transfer payments to Newfounfland & Labrador, because of the latter’s newfound (unintended pun) oil wealth. He was a maverick. So you can hardly take anything he did or say seriously.

    also, no system is perfect, and I’m not praisinf our system uncritically at all. But your statement calling Canada’s and England’s health systems as the “worst medicine” is patently absurd. Sure, it can be better. But so could yours. Just look at the damn statistics.

    The actual waiting times for heart surgery, where it is not urgent, are not that long either. Urgent surgeries will always be done immediately, of course. But why tell you this, you’ve already made up your mind. And you are not answering the statistics either. Because you can’t.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – and you are not talking about the same thing as sg and I are talkin about. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CANADA!!! We are talking about sg’s mention of selection theory.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – and you are not talking about the same thing as sg and I are talkin about. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CANADA!!! We are talking about sg’s mention of selection theory.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Average Infant mortality – source CIA Factbook , year 2009.”

    Some have noted that this is apples to oranges because the UK and others do not count an infant as born alive if he has not reached a certain gestational age. So, a premature infant who subsequently dies is counted in the US statistics but not in the others. Also, in the US and Puerto Rico, mothers may be somewhat less willing to abort children with known fatal anomalies. Those children are not aborted so they are born and generally die soon.

    Finally note that those numbers are per thousand not per hundred. So, they all are less than 1% which is probably pretty close to as good as it can possibly get given the natural defect rate.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Average Infant mortality – source CIA Factbook , year 2009.”

    Some have noted that this is apples to oranges because the UK and others do not count an infant as born alive if he has not reached a certain gestational age. So, a premature infant who subsequently dies is counted in the US statistics but not in the others. Also, in the US and Puerto Rico, mothers may be somewhat less willing to abort children with known fatal anomalies. Those children are not aborted so they are born and generally die soon.

    Finally note that those numbers are per thousand not per hundred. So, they all are less than 1% which is probably pretty close to as good as it can possibly get given the natural defect rate.

  • Grace

    Canada’s deporable health care, and WAIT TIME for surgeries is well known.

    This from the Fraser Institute, just a month and a half ago:

    Wait times for surgery vault to record high of 19 weeks in Canada

    Date: December 12, 2011

    VANCOUVER, BC—Canadians seeking surgical or other therapeutic treatment faced a median wait time of 19.0 weeks in 2011, the longest wait time since 1993 when the Fraser Institute first began measuring wait times.

    The median surgical wait time in 2011 jumped to 19.0 weeks from 18.2 weeks in 2010, exceeding the previous all-time high of 18.3 weeks recorded in 2007, according to the 21st annual edition of Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, released today by the Fraser Institute, Canada’s leading public policy think-tank.

    “Canadians are being forced to wait almost four-and-a-half months, on average, to receive surgical care, prolonging the pain and suffering patients and their families are forced to endure,” said Mark Rovere, Fraser Institute associate director of health policy research and co-author of the report.

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=2147484002

    What a mess!

  • Grace

    Canada’s deporable health care, and WAIT TIME for surgeries is well known.

    This from the Fraser Institute, just a month and a half ago:

    Wait times for surgery vault to record high of 19 weeks in Canada

    Date: December 12, 2011

    VANCOUVER, BC—Canadians seeking surgical or other therapeutic treatment faced a median wait time of 19.0 weeks in 2011, the longest wait time since 1993 when the Fraser Institute first began measuring wait times.

    The median surgical wait time in 2011 jumped to 19.0 weeks from 18.2 weeks in 2010, exceeding the previous all-time high of 18.3 weeks recorded in 2007, according to the 21st annual edition of Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, released today by the Fraser Institute, Canada’s leading public policy think-tank.

    “Canadians are being forced to wait almost four-and-a-half months, on average, to receive surgical care, prolonging the pain and suffering patients and their families are forced to endure,” said Mark Rovere, Fraser Institute associate director of health policy research and co-author of the report.

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=2147484002

    What a mess!

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Well, but note that we might have to wait, but we all get it, even if we are just a bum off the street. Also, medical bills cause 60% of all bankruptcies in the US.

    So, is such long waiting times desireable? Of course not!
    Is it ok that a person dies because they are pennieless and can’t afford a surgery? Of course not!
    Is it ok that hundreds of thousands of people go bankrupt every year because of no fault of their own? Of course not!

    Can we all agree that neither system works very well?

    Can we agree not to through mud, but to explore ways of making both systems better? Can we also agree to recognise that the average health of both people in the US and Canada is a LOT better than say the average health of people in Burkina Faso, and that we have a lot to be thankful for?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Well, but note that we might have to wait, but we all get it, even if we are just a bum off the street. Also, medical bills cause 60% of all bankruptcies in the US.

    So, is such long waiting times desireable? Of course not!
    Is it ok that a person dies because they are pennieless and can’t afford a surgery? Of course not!
    Is it ok that hundreds of thousands of people go bankrupt every year because of no fault of their own? Of course not!

    Can we all agree that neither system works very well?

    Can we agree not to through mud, but to explore ways of making both systems better? Can we also agree to recognise that the average health of both people in the US and Canada is a LOT better than say the average health of people in Burkina Faso, and that we have a lot to be thankful for?

  • Grace

    Anyone can come to ER, they will be seen by a doctor, and their condition WILL BE treated, be it blood work, anything in radiology, delivery of child, or an emergency surgery. No one is turned away. No one waites for months for a needed surgery. A ruptured colon results in peritonitis, which if not treated immediately, will result in death. A heart problem cannot wait, as was the case in Canada – Premier Danny Williams – perhaps the Canadian hospitals did not have qualified doctors to perform the surgery, or they were going to make Williams wait.

    I know this because my field is in medicine. I have witnessed the very wealthy to the poorest of the poor walk through the doors. A triage is used to see the most ill, or emergency cases…… money has nothing to do with it.

  • Grace

    Anyone can come to ER, they will be seen by a doctor, and their condition WILL BE treated, be it blood work, anything in radiology, delivery of child, or an emergency surgery. No one is turned away. No one waites for months for a needed surgery. A ruptured colon results in peritonitis, which if not treated immediately, will result in death. A heart problem cannot wait, as was the case in Canada – Premier Danny Williams – perhaps the Canadian hospitals did not have qualified doctors to perform the surgery, or they were going to make Williams wait.

    I know this because my field is in medicine. I have witnessed the very wealthy to the poorest of the poor walk through the doors. A triage is used to see the most ill, or emergency cases…… money has nothing to do with it.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And anyone can come to the ER in Canada too – I don’t understand why you think otherwise. And anyone can get an expensive operation too, and will not be billed for it either. Anywhere. If the operation is utgent, it will be seen to, immediately. If not urgent, it will go into the waiting list. Are those waiting lists too long? Yes – and here in SK there is urgent work afoot to shorten it as well.

    What are you having a coniption about?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And anyone can come to the ER in Canada too – I don’t understand why you think otherwise. And anyone can get an expensive operation too, and will not be billed for it either. Anywhere. If the operation is utgent, it will be seen to, immediately. If not urgent, it will go into the waiting list. Are those waiting lists too long? Yes – and here in SK there is urgent work afoot to shorten it as well.

    What are you having a coniption about?

  • Grace

    Fraser Institute –

    Ontario’s “pay more, get less” health care system

    Timmins Daily Press
    Mark Rovere

    February 1, 2012
    Facing a $16-billion deficit, the Ontario government announced it will stop funding a handful of medical services currently covered by the public health insurer. This should come as no surprise, as it has become the norm in Ontario as well as other Canadian provinces. This is because cost-containment strategies such as rationing access to medical services are intrinsic characteristics of single-payer health insurance.

    When governments are faced with budget constraints – i.e. a huge provincial deficit – along with unsustainable growth in health spending, it doesn’t have many options. Consequently, since Ontarians are prohibited from purchasing private insurance for medically necessary services – the breadth of insured medical services is at the mercy of Ontario’s politicians.

    It’s time to move away from this fragmented, highly politicized, and centrally planned financing scheme, and allow Ontarians to take control of their own health care by removing the prohibition on private health insurance.

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=2147484210

    Socialism anyone?

  • Grace

    Fraser Institute –

    Ontario’s “pay more, get less” health care system

    Timmins Daily Press
    Mark Rovere

    February 1, 2012
    Facing a $16-billion deficit, the Ontario government announced it will stop funding a handful of medical services currently covered by the public health insurer. This should come as no surprise, as it has become the norm in Ontario as well as other Canadian provinces. This is because cost-containment strategies such as rationing access to medical services are intrinsic characteristics of single-payer health insurance.

    When governments are faced with budget constraints – i.e. a huge provincial deficit – along with unsustainable growth in health spending, it doesn’t have many options. Consequently, since Ontarians are prohibited from purchasing private insurance for medically necessary services – the breadth of insured medical services is at the mercy of Ontario’s politicians.

    It’s time to move away from this fragmented, highly politicized, and centrally planned financing scheme, and allow Ontarians to take control of their own health care by removing the prohibition on private health insurance.

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=2147484210

    Socialism anyone?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, the Fraser institute is a libertarian think tank. Of course they are going to say what they say. With any source of data that is far removed from the centre, one has to apply a dose of salt…. wether it be left or right of centre. I could find many opposing viewpoints online, from say left of centre think tanks / organisations – and I would adivse the same – treat with caution. That doesn’tmean they are lying – but it does mean that they might be ever so selective with their data presentation.

    Consider that the Wild Rose Party in Alberta, which itself is a libertarian-leaning party does not consider abandoning the Provincial medical care plan, but would consider adding some priovate options (Alberta aready has a bit of a hybrid system, and SK is considering it). Also, Ontario has lots of other problems, having been badly run of late, financially and otherwise. The issues you describe might not just be a factor of the “socialized medicine”, but of poorly run bureacracy in the first place. SK has been turning a corner over the last 5 years or so, and Alberta has been doing well for the last 3 decades already. In contrast to that, Quebec ain’t all that great. It all depends where you are in Canada, since the Province control the healthcare, as previously described. One cannot be simplisitc when analysing factors and numbers.

    BTW, the origin of “socialized medicine” is right here in SK, and came with WW 2 hero and leader of the NDP, Tommy Douglas, an erstwhile Baptist minister. The NDP was the successor of Social Credit, which came out of the Christian Parties born on the prairies during the Depression, although nowadays the NDP has moved well leftward of those roots.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, the Fraser institute is a libertarian think tank. Of course they are going to say what they say. With any source of data that is far removed from the centre, one has to apply a dose of salt…. wether it be left or right of centre. I could find many opposing viewpoints online, from say left of centre think tanks / organisations – and I would adivse the same – treat with caution. That doesn’tmean they are lying – but it does mean that they might be ever so selective with their data presentation.

    Consider that the Wild Rose Party in Alberta, which itself is a libertarian-leaning party does not consider abandoning the Provincial medical care plan, but would consider adding some priovate options (Alberta aready has a bit of a hybrid system, and SK is considering it). Also, Ontario has lots of other problems, having been badly run of late, financially and otherwise. The issues you describe might not just be a factor of the “socialized medicine”, but of poorly run bureacracy in the first place. SK has been turning a corner over the last 5 years or so, and Alberta has been doing well for the last 3 decades already. In contrast to that, Quebec ain’t all that great. It all depends where you are in Canada, since the Province control the healthcare, as previously described. One cannot be simplisitc when analysing factors and numbers.

    BTW, the origin of “socialized medicine” is right here in SK, and came with WW 2 hero and leader of the NDP, Tommy Douglas, an erstwhile Baptist minister. The NDP was the successor of Social Credit, which came out of the Christian Parties born on the prairies during the Depression, although nowadays the NDP has moved well leftward of those roots.

  • Grace

    There are a large number of my family who live in the U.S. very close to the Canadian border. The Canadians stream over the border to receive medical treatment because they cannot receive it in Canada.

    The great majority of Canadians turn a blind eye, OR they simply deny what U.S. citizens observe all the time, when living near the borders of Canada.

    The Frasier Institute takes the shades off Canada’s poor socialized “health plan” – therefore, the Canadians have a myriad of excuses downgrading the Institute.

    NOTE: Many of the articles appeared in Canadian Newspapers, (Timmins Daily Press) but hey……….. that doesn’t count. The one on Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams, was from CBS News.

    Did Premier Danny Williams find it needful to come over the border to a U.S. hospital, or is that all BOGUS?

  • Grace

    There are a large number of my family who live in the U.S. very close to the Canadian border. The Canadians stream over the border to receive medical treatment because they cannot receive it in Canada.

    The great majority of Canadians turn a blind eye, OR they simply deny what U.S. citizens observe all the time, when living near the borders of Canada.

    The Frasier Institute takes the shades off Canada’s poor socialized “health plan” – therefore, the Canadians have a myriad of excuses downgrading the Institute.

    NOTE: Many of the articles appeared in Canadian Newspapers, (Timmins Daily Press) but hey……….. that doesn’t count. The one on Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams, was from CBS News.

    Did Premier Danny Williams find it needful to come over the border to a U.S. hospital, or is that all BOGUS?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – he did not need to, he choose to, because, apparently, it was more convenient for his schedule or smething like that. Why do you use the word bogus anyway? I clearly said that the whole story was analysed ad nauseum here in Canada? Why keep harping on it? Does it satisfy some deep-seated need?

    Also, the fact that some Canadians go over the border to get quicker service is true. Just like Americans streaming the other way to buy cheaper medication (Also true). I clearly said that neither system is perfect.

    So please explain to me, why you feel the need to keep on hammering on poor Canada all the time??

    And, at the end of the day, both systems produce people that have comparable health, far better than the average in the world, for which we can be thankful. Are you thankful Grace? I am. Even though your system costs more per person than ours, but ours have longer waiting periods, but cheaper medicine. C’est la vie.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – he did not need to, he choose to, because, apparently, it was more convenient for his schedule or smething like that. Why do you use the word bogus anyway? I clearly said that the whole story was analysed ad nauseum here in Canada? Why keep harping on it? Does it satisfy some deep-seated need?

    Also, the fact that some Canadians go over the border to get quicker service is true. Just like Americans streaming the other way to buy cheaper medication (Also true). I clearly said that neither system is perfect.

    So please explain to me, why you feel the need to keep on hammering on poor Canada all the time??

    And, at the end of the day, both systems produce people that have comparable health, far better than the average in the world, for which we can be thankful. Are you thankful Grace? I am. Even though your system costs more per person than ours, but ours have longer waiting periods, but cheaper medicine. C’est la vie.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    BTW, Americans also cross to Canada when they need the Healthcare – as ex-Governor Palin did as a child. And to find accurate numbers is completely impossible, since every source is tainted by its objective – the right-leaning ones want you to beleive one thing, and the left-leaning ones something else. So the stats are not trustworthy when it comes to cross-border medical “shopping”. And btw, when you need a procedure, and the lines are too long, the Provincial plan will pay for your treatment down south. Yes – I bet you did not know that.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    BTW, Americans also cross to Canada when they need the Healthcare – as ex-Governor Palin did as a child. And to find accurate numbers is completely impossible, since every source is tainted by its objective – the right-leaning ones want you to beleive one thing, and the left-leaning ones something else. So the stats are not trustworthy when it comes to cross-border medical “shopping”. And btw, when you need a procedure, and the lines are too long, the Provincial plan will pay for your treatment down south. Yes – I bet you did not know that.

  • Grace

    All the excuses (made by Canadians) as to why Premier Danny Williams came to the U.S. are BOGUS.

    Canadian meds are not the quality we buy here in the U.S. We pay between 2 and 7 dollars for each prescription, through our private insurance plan. But of course if we had SOCIALIZED medicine in the U.S. we would pay much more in taxes, and have the same BROKEN health care you have in Canada. That’s not a viable plan, it’s a medical delemna that Canadians know all too well. To top it off, Canadians are not allowed to buy ‘private insurance’ – that’s a disgrace.

    Canadian health care system failing patients by not adopting new medical technology

    CALGARY, AB-Canada is slow to adopt the latest medical technology forcing Canadian patients to rely on old and often outdated medical equipment for treatment, says a new study from independent research organization the Fraser Institute.

    “Lack of access to cutting-edge medical technology has significant consequences; the most obvious is that a patient’s survival or return to full health is compromised because of a later or less sophisticated diagnosis and more invasive treatment,” said Nadeem Esmail, Director of Health System Performance Studies at The Fraser Institute and co-author of Medical Technology in Canada.

    “Equally disconcerting is that Canada’s total healthcare expenditures are among the highest in the developed world and yet the limited inventory of advanced medical equipment found in our health care system is often old and outdated.”

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=12198&terms=Canadian+outdated+medical+equipment

  • Grace

    All the excuses (made by Canadians) as to why Premier Danny Williams came to the U.S. are BOGUS.

    Canadian meds are not the quality we buy here in the U.S. We pay between 2 and 7 dollars for each prescription, through our private insurance plan. But of course if we had SOCIALIZED medicine in the U.S. we would pay much more in taxes, and have the same BROKEN health care you have in Canada. That’s not a viable plan, it’s a medical delemna that Canadians know all too well. To top it off, Canadians are not allowed to buy ‘private insurance’ – that’s a disgrace.

    Canadian health care system failing patients by not adopting new medical technology

    CALGARY, AB-Canada is slow to adopt the latest medical technology forcing Canadian patients to rely on old and often outdated medical equipment for treatment, says a new study from independent research organization the Fraser Institute.

    “Lack of access to cutting-edge medical technology has significant consequences; the most obvious is that a patient’s survival or return to full health is compromised because of a later or less sophisticated diagnosis and more invasive treatment,” said Nadeem Esmail, Director of Health System Performance Studies at The Fraser Institute and co-author of Medical Technology in Canada.

    “Equally disconcerting is that Canada’s total healthcare expenditures are among the highest in the developed world and yet the limited inventory of advanced medical equipment found in our health care system is often old and outdated.”

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=12198&terms=Canadian+outdated+medical+equipment

  • Grace

    Sarah Palin – - – -

    She lived in Alaska, much closer to Canada then the U.S. border in Washington. Remember, she was just a child, that was some time ago. Alaska did not have the hospitals, equipment, etc., that long ago.

    Palin was only a few months old ( she was born in February 1964) when they moved to Skagway, Alaska, that would be only 50 miles to Canada. Skagway is water-locked, no wonder the family sought medical help in Whitehorse Canada. Skagway today has a population of 828 people, vs. Whitehorse Canada with a population today of 19,000. I’m sure the numbers were much different years ago.

  • Grace

    Sarah Palin – - – -

    She lived in Alaska, much closer to Canada then the U.S. border in Washington. Remember, she was just a child, that was some time ago. Alaska did not have the hospitals, equipment, etc., that long ago.

    Palin was only a few months old ( she was born in February 1964) when they moved to Skagway, Alaska, that would be only 50 miles to Canada. Skagway is water-locked, no wonder the family sought medical help in Whitehorse Canada. Skagway today has a population of 828 people, vs. Whitehorse Canada with a population today of 19,000. I’m sure the numbers were much different years ago.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, you obviously have a very serious problem. You keep opn harping on Canada. Why do you hate us so? I explained over and over that I do not hate the US, that I actually like the US. Veith has stated that the welcomes Canadian opinions. Why do you feel the intense need to keep up your little hate parade??

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, you obviously have a very serious problem. You keep opn harping on Canada. Why do you hate us so? I explained over and over that I do not hate the US, that I actually like the US. Veith has stated that the welcomes Canadian opinions. Why do you feel the intense need to keep up your little hate parade??

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    In case you miss the point Grace: I want you to be proud of you country. That is good. But being proud of ones country doesn’t mean you are obligated to piss on everyone elses. And that is exactly what you are doing. Because the tenor of this discussion is not the difficulties of Healthcare, but how “incredibly bad and wrong and all other negative terms you can conjure up” Canada and the Canadian way is. And it is beginning to grate on my nerves.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    In case you miss the point Grace: I want you to be proud of you country. That is good. But being proud of ones country doesn’t mean you are obligated to piss on everyone elses. And that is exactly what you are doing. Because the tenor of this discussion is not the difficulties of Healthcare, but how “incredibly bad and wrong and all other negative terms you can conjure up” Canada and the Canadian way is. And it is beginning to grate on my nerves.

  • Grace

    When you use words such as you have in your last post beginning with p___ . My respect level is just about zero, such is a limited vocabulary.

    The points I make regarding “socialism” and “socialised health care” are compared to Canada’s dreadful plan. As you have noticed, this country is getting ready for an election, “HEALTH CARE” and “SOCIALISM” have been at the forefront of many discussions, due to the boneheaded plan of Obama’s.

    Canada is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of socialism, and it ills.

  • Grace

    When you use words such as you have in your last post beginning with p___ . My respect level is just about zero, such is a limited vocabulary.

    The points I make regarding “socialism” and “socialised health care” are compared to Canada’s dreadful plan. As you have noticed, this country is getting ready for an election, “HEALTH CARE” and “SOCIALISM” have been at the forefront of many discussions, due to the boneheaded plan of Obama’s.

    Canada is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of socialism, and it ills.

  • Grace

    Hate is a very dubious word, fraught with suspicion, when defining that which your opponent finds as a serious flaw in their country or their political beliefs. I hate no one, however I find certain governments to be second class, especially when they represent “socialism” OR they take away the rights of their citizens, so they can have a middle of the road dictatorship, shrouded in socialism. It becomes much more of interest when the people of such countries support their own government, instead of speaking out against unfair practices. Denying their citizens the opportunity to buy private insurance is but one example. That is shameful, but of course if the citizens buy their own private plan, that makes their government look even worse, so, it’s against the law. Nothing to be proud of.

  • Grace

    Hate is a very dubious word, fraught with suspicion, when defining that which your opponent finds as a serious flaw in their country or their political beliefs. I hate no one, however I find certain governments to be second class, especially when they represent “socialism” OR they take away the rights of their citizens, so they can have a middle of the road dictatorship, shrouded in socialism. It becomes much more of interest when the people of such countries support their own government, instead of speaking out against unfair practices. Denying their citizens the opportunity to buy private insurance is but one example. That is shameful, but of course if the citizens buy their own private plan, that makes their government look even worse, so, it’s against the law. Nothing to be proud of.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, I have no respect for you, because you are a pot of poison,full of hate, ignorance, and zero understanding. There is no use discussing anything with you, because, as many here have discovered, you are so stuck up and filled with pride that you cannot learn anything.

    You were the cause I left this site for many months, you and your disgustinging habits. But you will not do so again. I will not be driven away by the mutterings of a crazy old lady from Southern California. From now on I’ll treat you like the village id…

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, I have no respect for you, because you are a pot of poison,full of hate, ignorance, and zero understanding. There is no use discussing anything with you, because, as many here have discovered, you are so stuck up and filled with pride that you cannot learn anything.

    You were the cause I left this site for many months, you and your disgustinging habits. But you will not do so again. I will not be driven away by the mutterings of a crazy old lady from Southern California. From now on I’ll treat you like the village id…

  • Grace

    Have you noticed that I rarely post to you? The reason I again posted to you, was because you posted over and over and over again to me.

    There are several people to whom I don’t post, and then in return don’t comment to me. It works out much better.

    If you find my disagreeing with you or the practice of “socialism” to be a topic, attached to Canada and other countries (Canada) being a neighbor, then the DEBATE is totally on your terms, it’s not a level playing field – only because I use links, and proof of what I state.

    I disagree with many here one day, and agree on something else on another subject. If you’ve noticed, that happened just yesterday evening.

    I’m not the reason you left, you left because you wanted to. Your excuse is the oldest on the blogosphere, when trying to eliminate a commenter. When posting I use for most of the time LINKS, to back up exactly what I’m trying to prove.

    STATING:

    I will not be driven away by the mutterings of a crazy old lady from Southern California. From now on I’ll treat you like the village id…

    I feel sorry for anyone who finds it necessary to stoop to such mutterings, it then becomes a personal attack no longer on the subject.

  • Grace

    Have you noticed that I rarely post to you? The reason I again posted to you, was because you posted over and over and over again to me.

    There are several people to whom I don’t post, and then in return don’t comment to me. It works out much better.

    If you find my disagreeing with you or the practice of “socialism” to be a topic, attached to Canada and other countries (Canada) being a neighbor, then the DEBATE is totally on your terms, it’s not a level playing field – only because I use links, and proof of what I state.

    I disagree with many here one day, and agree on something else on another subject. If you’ve noticed, that happened just yesterday evening.

    I’m not the reason you left, you left because you wanted to. Your excuse is the oldest on the blogosphere, when trying to eliminate a commenter. When posting I use for most of the time LINKS, to back up exactly what I’m trying to prove.

    STATING:

    I will not be driven away by the mutterings of a crazy old lady from Southern California. From now on I’ll treat you like the village id…

    I feel sorry for anyone who finds it necessary to stoop to such mutterings, it then becomes a personal attack no longer on the subject.

  • Grace

    DEBATE

    v.intr.
    1. To consider something; deliberate.
    2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
    3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
    4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.

    v.tr.
    1. To deliberate on; consider.
    2. To dispute or argue about.
    3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
    4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.

    n.
    1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
    2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
    3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
    4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.

    I would like to add: PERSONAL ATTACKS on a commenter, be it on the blogosphere, or in a formal face to face debate serves no purpose. Name calling, and foul language, or off color, are not useful ways to engage anyone.

  • Grace

    DEBATE

    v.intr.
    1. To consider something; deliberate.
    2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
    3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
    4. Obsolete To fight or quarrel.

    v.tr.
    1. To deliberate on; consider.
    2. To dispute or argue about.
    3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
    4. Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.

    n.
    1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
    2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
    3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
    4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.

    I would like to add: PERSONAL ATTACKS on a commenter, be it on the blogosphere, or in a formal face to face debate serves no purpose. Name calling, and foul language, or off color, are not useful ways to engage anyone.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, I left, because you kept on behaving like an ass towards me. I had some private facebook conversations with 3 other regulars here, and they all had the same message: Why don’t you come back, just ignore Grace. But I didn’t.

    I am not in the habit of making up stories. And the day I came back, I said exactly what I said now.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, I left, because you kept on behaving like an ass towards me. I had some private facebook conversations with 3 other regulars here, and they all had the same message: Why don’t you come back, just ignore Grace. But I didn’t.

    I am not in the habit of making up stories. And the day I came back, I said exactly what I said now.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – you rarely post to me, because up to this point, since my return, I have purposely avoided you.

    Debate? Please! You wouldn’t know debate if you were married to it for 2 decades.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace – you rarely post to me, because up to this point, since my return, I have purposely avoided you.

    Debate? Please! You wouldn’t know debate if you were married to it for 2 decades.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I’m departing this thread – as I’m losing my temper, and that is not a good thing. Sorry.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I’m departing this thread – as I’m losing my temper, and that is not a good thing. Sorry.

  • Med Student

    Klasie, if you happen to come back, I was wondering if you know whether or not the life expectancy data you brought up earlier is corrected at all for causes of death that the quality/availability of health care is never going to stop? I ask because I have read before that the reason the U.S. has average lower life expectancy is because of a higher rate of accidents/murder than other countries like Canada/UK have, and that life expectancy is actually higher in the US for people with serious diseases like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease than it is for comparable countries. Obviously if you’re going to compare health care systems it helps to use life expectancy data for causes of death that medicine can prevent or delay.
    I don’t want to get into the debate over socialized medicine, mostly because I don’t know that much about health care economics either way except that in general it’s screwed up in some way no matter what system you have. Doctors at my school admit this all the time – the incentives are screwy, procedures are favored for reimbursement over office visits that could have just as great or a greater effect on health, etc. etc. I have a class on the economics of health care later this year, which ought to be interesting. The main issue as I see it right now is that while health care is very good, it’s very expensive, and there’s no way around that. So either you lower the quality a bit to make it more available, or it’s less available but higher quality (I’m not trying to cast aspersions on Canadian doctors here. You do what you can with the resources you have). People have come to expect perfect health or as close to it as they can come, and that costs a lot of money. Period.

  • Med Student

    Klasie, if you happen to come back, I was wondering if you know whether or not the life expectancy data you brought up earlier is corrected at all for causes of death that the quality/availability of health care is never going to stop? I ask because I have read before that the reason the U.S. has average lower life expectancy is because of a higher rate of accidents/murder than other countries like Canada/UK have, and that life expectancy is actually higher in the US for people with serious diseases like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease than it is for comparable countries. Obviously if you’re going to compare health care systems it helps to use life expectancy data for causes of death that medicine can prevent or delay.
    I don’t want to get into the debate over socialized medicine, mostly because I don’t know that much about health care economics either way except that in general it’s screwed up in some way no matter what system you have. Doctors at my school admit this all the time – the incentives are screwy, procedures are favored for reimbursement over office visits that could have just as great or a greater effect on health, etc. etc. I have a class on the economics of health care later this year, which ought to be interesting. The main issue as I see it right now is that while health care is very good, it’s very expensive, and there’s no way around that. So either you lower the quality a bit to make it more available, or it’s less available but higher quality (I’m not trying to cast aspersions on Canadian doctors here. You do what you can with the resources you have). People have come to expect perfect health or as close to it as they can come, and that costs a lot of money. Period.

  • Grace

    Kraalogies @ 80

    YOU WROTE: “I’m departing this thread – as I’m losing my temper, and that is not a good thing. Sorry.”

    It’s not wrong to disagree. The whole presidential campaign is frought with disagreements and debate. Getting that upset serves no purpose. As I’ve stated before, the HEALTH CARE DEBATE and SOCIALISM are very real, they represent, if they come to fruition a complete change in our government and what this country stands for.

    I was born and raised here, my career is within the U.S. My allegence is to my LORD and Savior first, my husband and family 2nd and third, and my country is next. I care deeply about the United States, the painful wrong roads its taken regarding abortion to name one of the worst, and then some of the wars we have been involved with. I don’t knuckle under when it comes to using proof of what I believe. My belief in the LORD Jesus Christ as my Savior takes precedent over politics

    You threw out Palin as an argument for Canadian medicine in post 68, at which I answered in post 70. Obviously you had done no research, if you had, you would have known the circumstances in which Sarah’s parents traveled from Skagway, Alaska TO Whitehorse Canada. Skagway being a very small town, and Whitehorse being far bigger. Then you ignored the fact that I had given you a factual answer.

    As for debating – I have debated on many levels – those who become angry and lash out on a personal basis, are usually those who cannot get their own way. That’s not how debate works. There are many here who disagree with me on a variety of issues, on this blog, and then there are subjects of which we do agree.

    68 Klasie Kraalogies February 3, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    BTW, Americans also cross to Canada when they need the Healthcare – as ex-Governor Palin did as a child. And to find accurate numbers is completely impossible, since every source is tainted by its objective – the right-leaning ones want you to beleive one thing, and the left-leaning ones something else. So the stats are not trustworthy when it comes to cross-border medical “shopping”. And btw, when you need a procedure, and the lines are too long, the Provincial plan will pay for your treatment down south. Yes – I bet you did not know that.

    70 Grace February 3, 2012 at 5:26 pm
    Sarah Palin – – – –

    She lived in Alaska, much closer to Canada then the U.S. border in Washington. Remember, she was just a child, that was some time ago. Alaska did not have the hospitals, equipment, etc., that long ago.

    Palin was only a few months old ( she was born in February 1964) when they moved to Skagway, Alaska, that would be only 50 miles to Canada. Skagway is water-locked, no wonder the family sought medical help in Whitehorse Canada. Skagway today has a population of 828 people, vs. Whitehorse Canada with a population today of 19,000. I’m sure the numbers were much different years ago.

    __________ I’m sorry you feel the way you do, I really mean that.

  • Grace

    Kraalogies @ 80

    YOU WROTE: “I’m departing this thread – as I’m losing my temper, and that is not a good thing. Sorry.”

    It’s not wrong to disagree. The whole presidential campaign is frought with disagreements and debate. Getting that upset serves no purpose. As I’ve stated before, the HEALTH CARE DEBATE and SOCIALISM are very real, they represent, if they come to fruition a complete change in our government and what this country stands for.

    I was born and raised here, my career is within the U.S. My allegence is to my LORD and Savior first, my husband and family 2nd and third, and my country is next. I care deeply about the United States, the painful wrong roads its taken regarding abortion to name one of the worst, and then some of the wars we have been involved with. I don’t knuckle under when it comes to using proof of what I believe. My belief in the LORD Jesus Christ as my Savior takes precedent over politics

    You threw out Palin as an argument for Canadian medicine in post 68, at which I answered in post 70. Obviously you had done no research, if you had, you would have known the circumstances in which Sarah’s parents traveled from Skagway, Alaska TO Whitehorse Canada. Skagway being a very small town, and Whitehorse being far bigger. Then you ignored the fact that I had given you a factual answer.

    As for debating – I have debated on many levels – those who become angry and lash out on a personal basis, are usually those who cannot get their own way. That’s not how debate works. There are many here who disagree with me on a variety of issues, on this blog, and then there are subjects of which we do agree.

    68 Klasie Kraalogies February 3, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    BTW, Americans also cross to Canada when they need the Healthcare – as ex-Governor Palin did as a child. And to find accurate numbers is completely impossible, since every source is tainted by its objective – the right-leaning ones want you to beleive one thing, and the left-leaning ones something else. So the stats are not trustworthy when it comes to cross-border medical “shopping”. And btw, when you need a procedure, and the lines are too long, the Provincial plan will pay for your treatment down south. Yes – I bet you did not know that.

    70 Grace February 3, 2012 at 5:26 pm
    Sarah Palin – – – –

    She lived in Alaska, much closer to Canada then the U.S. border in Washington. Remember, she was just a child, that was some time ago. Alaska did not have the hospitals, equipment, etc., that long ago.

    Palin was only a few months old ( she was born in February 1964) when they moved to Skagway, Alaska, that would be only 50 miles to Canada. Skagway is water-locked, no wonder the family sought medical help in Whitehorse Canada. Skagway today has a population of 828 people, vs. Whitehorse Canada with a population today of 19,000. I’m sure the numbers were much different years ago.

    __________ I’m sorry you feel the way you do, I really mean that.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Med student, I don’t think so, but although murder etc is higher in the US, adjusting for that is going to leave the numbers in the same ball park. I guess the point which I was making is that Grace’s initial statement, which set this whole thing off, and which I founf ludicrous, is that “Canada and the UK have the worst health systems”. The data just don’t support such a conclusion.

    What I also tried to make clear, and what Grace cannot understand, which also drove me up the wall, is the fact that one can find imperfections in both the American and Canadian systems. Long waitings for non-urgent surgeries here, medical-induced bankruptcies there (for instance). When people start losing everything, because they had the misfortune to fall ill, and it happens in such numbers, something is wrong in the State of Denmark.

    In another thread though, over the last week, Steve Billingsley commented that Medicare is a “shibboleth” for American politics today. It is a pity. But I do understand somewhat, because I think the current administration handled the matter in a less than desireable manner. The idea of forcing Americans to do anything goes counter top the American psyche. A hybrid single-payer, private care option like Alberta might have been a tad less controversial, no? As it is, polarisation ensued, and I as a foreigner get tarred and feathered if I as much as breath an opinion different to the conventional wisdom here, sending all our bloodd pressures sky high. At least SK Healt will pay for the cost of my treatment, I hope you guys have good plans ;)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Med student, I don’t think so, but although murder etc is higher in the US, adjusting for that is going to leave the numbers in the same ball park. I guess the point which I was making is that Grace’s initial statement, which set this whole thing off, and which I founf ludicrous, is that “Canada and the UK have the worst health systems”. The data just don’t support such a conclusion.

    What I also tried to make clear, and what Grace cannot understand, which also drove me up the wall, is the fact that one can find imperfections in both the American and Canadian systems. Long waitings for non-urgent surgeries here, medical-induced bankruptcies there (for instance). When people start losing everything, because they had the misfortune to fall ill, and it happens in such numbers, something is wrong in the State of Denmark.

    In another thread though, over the last week, Steve Billingsley commented that Medicare is a “shibboleth” for American politics today. It is a pity. But I do understand somewhat, because I think the current administration handled the matter in a less than desireable manner. The idea of forcing Americans to do anything goes counter top the American psyche. A hybrid single-payer, private care option like Alberta might have been a tad less controversial, no? As it is, polarisation ensued, and I as a foreigner get tarred and feathered if I as much as breath an opinion different to the conventional wisdom here, sending all our bloodd pressures sky high. At least SK Healt will pay for the cost of my treatment, I hope you guys have good plans ;)

  • Tom Hering

    “Well, but note that we might have to wait, but we all get it, even if we are just a bum off the street.” – Klasie @ 61.

    I remember an episode of Firing Line where William F. Buckley, Jr. debated healthcare with Canada’s Prime Minister (can’t remember which one, though). Buckley: “You don’t see people here waiting in line to see a doctor.” Prime Minister: “That’s because you don’t have lines that people can get into.” :-D

    “That doesn’tmean [think tanks] are lying – but it does mean that they might be ever so selective with their data presentation.” – Klasie @ 65.

    Matthew B. Crawford, author of Shop Class as Soulcraft, once ran a D.C. think tank. He left because he found you couldn’t do any real thinking in a think tank. I paraphrase from a Book TV interview: “A think tank is a place where scholars work backwards from a preferred conclusion.” In other words, think tank scholars steer their research in a direction that pleases the political money backing them.

  • Tom Hering

    “Well, but note that we might have to wait, but we all get it, even if we are just a bum off the street.” – Klasie @ 61.

    I remember an episode of Firing Line where William F. Buckley, Jr. debated healthcare with Canada’s Prime Minister (can’t remember which one, though). Buckley: “You don’t see people here waiting in line to see a doctor.” Prime Minister: “That’s because you don’t have lines that people can get into.” :-D

    “That doesn’tmean [think tanks] are lying – but it does mean that they might be ever so selective with their data presentation.” – Klasie @ 65.

    Matthew B. Crawford, author of Shop Class as Soulcraft, once ran a D.C. think tank. He left because he found you couldn’t do any real thinking in a think tank. I paraphrase from a Book TV interview: “A think tank is a place where scholars work backwards from a preferred conclusion.” In other words, think tank scholars steer their research in a direction that pleases the political money backing them.

  • Booklover

    Side conversations notwithstanding, what Obama did was indeed radical and malicious.

  • Booklover

    Side conversations notwithstanding, what Obama did was indeed radical and malicious.

  • Tom Hering

    And incredibly stupid in an election year.

  • Tom Hering

    And incredibly stupid in an election year.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Tom, I love that Crawford quote!!

    Booklover – the essence of the debate nonewithstanding, as Tom notes, from a political strategy point of view, some of the latest decisions are a bit difficult to understand, unless it serves as an effort to reinvigorate the traditional base of the party. But its potential to alienate swing voters is considerable (here I’m also thinking of the pipeline decision). Difficult to follow the thinking here.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Tom, I love that Crawford quote!!

    Booklover – the essence of the debate nonewithstanding, as Tom notes, from a political strategy point of view, some of the latest decisions are a bit difficult to understand, unless it serves as an effort to reinvigorate the traditional base of the party. But its potential to alienate swing voters is considerable (here I’m also thinking of the pipeline decision). Difficult to follow the thinking here.

  • Med Student

    Thanks for the reply, Klasie. I agree that the life expectancy data certainly puts the lie to the idea that Canada and the UK have terrible health care. I’m sure some people have had issues with it, but that’s true here in the US too. Health care is a limited resource and figuring out how to distribute it is no easy task, which is why I’m glad it’s not my task :)

  • Med Student

    Thanks for the reply, Klasie. I agree that the life expectancy data certainly puts the lie to the idea that Canada and the UK have terrible health care. I’m sure some people have had issues with it, but that’s true here in the US too. Health care is a limited resource and figuring out how to distribute it is no easy task, which is why I’m glad it’s not my task :)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “When people start losing everything, because they had the misfortune to fall ill, and it happens in such numbers, something is wrong in the State of Denmark.”

    This is one of those things I get hung up on.

    For most of human history as well as for most people in the world today, if they got x,y, or z ailment, they just died, or suffered horribly and then died. Treatment is just not available, period. In contrast, here they get those same injuries or afflictions and they get treatment first and have to pay later. They have the option to refuse treatment, suffer and die like so many others have in the past and still do. Then they wouldn’t have to pay. If they choose the treatment, they get the treatment first and pay later. Now, it may cost them all they have and more, but really, isn’t that a bargain? Isn’t it a privilege that those professionals and researchers etc, provide and invent stuff to preserve one’s life much longer, and all you have to do is pay later? I mean, that is a pretty good deal. Bankruptcy is itself a good deal because it shelters some of a person’s assets. So, it has never seemed to me that medical bankruptcy is so bad especially when compared to the alternative.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “When people start losing everything, because they had the misfortune to fall ill, and it happens in such numbers, something is wrong in the State of Denmark.”

    This is one of those things I get hung up on.

    For most of human history as well as for most people in the world today, if they got x,y, or z ailment, they just died, or suffered horribly and then died. Treatment is just not available, period. In contrast, here they get those same injuries or afflictions and they get treatment first and have to pay later. They have the option to refuse treatment, suffer and die like so many others have in the past and still do. Then they wouldn’t have to pay. If they choose the treatment, they get the treatment first and pay later. Now, it may cost them all they have and more, but really, isn’t that a bargain? Isn’t it a privilege that those professionals and researchers etc, provide and invent stuff to preserve one’s life much longer, and all you have to do is pay later? I mean, that is a pretty good deal. Bankruptcy is itself a good deal because it shelters some of a person’s assets. So, it has never seemed to me that medical bankruptcy is so bad especially when compared to the alternative.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sg – wait till it happens to you. And for most of human history – they just keeled over and died. Now we can do something about it, but we take everything from them. Your argument is very unsatisfactory….

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sg – wait till it happens to you. And for most of human history – they just keeled over and died. Now we can do something about it, but we take everything from them. Your argument is very unsatisfactory….

  • fws

    sg @ 89

    But there is another option. when a church has someone who becomes ill in that way, maybe you personally, along with the rest, can give all YOU have in your time, money and talents to assist that person and encourage all the rest of your church to do the same?

    I suggest that this would be what the story of the Good Samaritan demands that you and I do.

    or… we can collectively insure each other in society in the event of such illness. Insurance is merely a statistical spreading of risk. it is pooled risk.

    Interestingly , no less than one Adam Smith would have approved of national health insurance or the like since demand is inelastic and it in no way distorts the free market. Besides, there is NO such thing as a free market in medicine anywhere in the world. Here in the USA the choice is between a monopoly called the AMA and a rigged market with the pharmaceuticals and hospitals.

  • fws

    sg @ 89

    But there is another option. when a church has someone who becomes ill in that way, maybe you personally, along with the rest, can give all YOU have in your time, money and talents to assist that person and encourage all the rest of your church to do the same?

    I suggest that this would be what the story of the Good Samaritan demands that you and I do.

    or… we can collectively insure each other in society in the event of such illness. Insurance is merely a statistical spreading of risk. it is pooled risk.

    Interestingly , no less than one Adam Smith would have approved of national health insurance or the like since demand is inelastic and it in no way distorts the free market. Besides, there is NO such thing as a free market in medicine anywhere in the world. Here in the USA the choice is between a monopoly called the AMA and a rigged market with the pharmaceuticals and hospitals.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I am not talking about society or insurance schemes.

    I am talking about gratitude and value.

    Some say you can’t put a price on life, however, when folks can choose to either spend all of their assets prolonging their lives or not, they quickly find their price. For me, I would be grateful to only lose all of my possessions and assets to pay for treatment for my spouse or children. I just don’t understand why folks are not grateful that they are able to get treatment first and why they aren’t happy to liquidate their assets to compensate those who worked to save their loved ones. Why should doctors, nurses, researchers go to work every day to provide treatment for people who don’t feel they owe them payment commensurate with the value of the work they do? People go bankrupt everyday because they spent too much on credit cards etc, stuff they didn’t really need. Going bankrupt actually protects many assets. People should be grateful that they can go bankrupt. It would be worse for them if they actually had to pay up what they really owe. I feel uneasy with the attitude that people feel fine that others do for them but when it is time for them to pay for the services, they don’t want to pay.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I am not talking about society or insurance schemes.

    I am talking about gratitude and value.

    Some say you can’t put a price on life, however, when folks can choose to either spend all of their assets prolonging their lives or not, they quickly find their price. For me, I would be grateful to only lose all of my possessions and assets to pay for treatment for my spouse or children. I just don’t understand why folks are not grateful that they are able to get treatment first and why they aren’t happy to liquidate their assets to compensate those who worked to save their loved ones. Why should doctors, nurses, researchers go to work every day to provide treatment for people who don’t feel they owe them payment commensurate with the value of the work they do? People go bankrupt everyday because they spent too much on credit cards etc, stuff they didn’t really need. Going bankrupt actually protects many assets. People should be grateful that they can go bankrupt. It would be worse for them if they actually had to pay up what they really owe. I feel uneasy with the attitude that people feel fine that others do for them but when it is time for them to pay for the services, they don’t want to pay.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And for most of human history – they just keeled over and died. Now we can do something about it, but we take everything from them.”

    Sounds like a good deal.

    What is the point of having all your stuff if you are dead?

    So life is worth more than stuff.

    And that “we can do something about it” part consists in lots of highly trained people getting up and going to work every day to actually “do something about it”. They have families, too. They can do something else that people will value if people don’t value their lives being saved. Also, doesn’t it just make basic sense that my life should be worth more to me than to you? I don’t expect others to want to save me as much as I want to save me. Therefore I have to compensate them commensurate with the value of the service they provide in order to make it possible for them to serve me and care for themselves and their families.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And for most of human history – they just keeled over and died. Now we can do something about it, but we take everything from them.”

    Sounds like a good deal.

    What is the point of having all your stuff if you are dead?

    So life is worth more than stuff.

    And that “we can do something about it” part consists in lots of highly trained people getting up and going to work every day to actually “do something about it”. They have families, too. They can do something else that people will value if people don’t value their lives being saved. Also, doesn’t it just make basic sense that my life should be worth more to me than to you? I don’t expect others to want to save me as much as I want to save me. Therefore I have to compensate them commensurate with the value of the service they provide in order to make it possible for them to serve me and care for themselves and their families.

  • Grace

    sg

    All too often people spend their money on things they cannot afford, even going so far as to say “the government should pay for health care.” Strange how they can afford a new SUV, new furniture, large flat screen TV’s but they won’t buy health insurance.

    I do believe that churches should help their congregants when they become ill, and cannot afford the help they need.

    Private health insurance costs money, but there are dozens of plans to choose from, some are not as expensive as one might think. There are plans that apply only to catastrophic illness, that is key IF you cannot afford a regular plan. In this way you’re covered if one becomes ill and cannot begin to pay for medical care. Without a catastrophic plan, the bills add up quickly and bankruptcy becomes almost a certainty.

  • Grace

    sg

    All too often people spend their money on things they cannot afford, even going so far as to say “the government should pay for health care.” Strange how they can afford a new SUV, new furniture, large flat screen TV’s but they won’t buy health insurance.

    I do believe that churches should help their congregants when they become ill, and cannot afford the help they need.

    Private health insurance costs money, but there are dozens of plans to choose from, some are not as expensive as one might think. There are plans that apply only to catastrophic illness, that is key IF you cannot afford a regular plan. In this way you’re covered if one becomes ill and cannot begin to pay for medical care. Without a catastrophic plan, the bills add up quickly and bankruptcy becomes almost a certainty.

  • Michael B.

    “I do believe that churches should help their congregants when they become ill, and cannot afford the help they need. ”

    I often hear religious fundamentalists say churches should take over health care. I’ve often wondered: Is church leadership aware of this responsibility? I can’t imagine what would happen if you went inside your average church and told the pastor and finance person that they are responsible for paying the health care costs of their congregants.

  • Michael B.

    “I do believe that churches should help their congregants when they become ill, and cannot afford the help they need. ”

    I often hear religious fundamentalists say churches should take over health care. I’ve often wondered: Is church leadership aware of this responsibility? I can’t imagine what would happen if you went inside your average church and told the pastor and finance person that they are responsible for paying the health care costs of their congregants.

  • Tom Hering

    If churches assumed responsibility for the healthcare of congregants and communities, they’d have to abandon building projects. Not gonna happen.

  • Tom Hering

    If churches assumed responsibility for the healthcare of congregants and communities, they’d have to abandon building projects. Not gonna happen.

  • kerner

    Michael B.:

    A century ago, churches and other public charities were exactly who was taking responsibility for health care. Why do you think there are all those Catholic and Lutheran and Methodist and Presbyterian hospitals? Also, back in the day, before there was “health insurance’, there were “fraternal” organizations, such as Aid Association for Lutherans, etc. Those organizations would step in and help a member in the case of a medical dissaster. But, these were all non-profit organizations. And the practice of medicine was not a ticket to great wealth (good upper middle class living, yes; fabulous wealth, no). One of the reasons health care costs so much today is that the health care industry (and I mean Physicians, nurses, hospitals, drug companies, Health insurance companies, everybody) are trying to cash in. I don’t generally object to people trying to make a buck in a free market, but the market in health care is anything but free. I have to agree with Klasie about one thing, our system needs improvement every bit as much as Canada’s system does. If theirs is socialism, ours is croney capitalism. And both have huge problems.

  • kerner

    Michael B.:

    A century ago, churches and other public charities were exactly who was taking responsibility for health care. Why do you think there are all those Catholic and Lutheran and Methodist and Presbyterian hospitals? Also, back in the day, before there was “health insurance’, there were “fraternal” organizations, such as Aid Association for Lutherans, etc. Those organizations would step in and help a member in the case of a medical dissaster. But, these were all non-profit organizations. And the practice of medicine was not a ticket to great wealth (good upper middle class living, yes; fabulous wealth, no). One of the reasons health care costs so much today is that the health care industry (and I mean Physicians, nurses, hospitals, drug companies, Health insurance companies, everybody) are trying to cash in. I don’t generally object to people trying to make a buck in a free market, but the market in health care is anything but free. I have to agree with Klasie about one thing, our system needs improvement every bit as much as Canada’s system does. If theirs is socialism, ours is croney capitalism. And both have huge problems.

  • kerner

    I mean, in all our discussions of health care, how much time do we devote to developing a relationship bwetween what health care costs and what consumers (patients) can actually afford to pay? We just assume that nobody can pay for health care, so all we do is look for ways to subsidize it. And with that attitude, the costs are sure to rise. Which is what health care costs have done since “health insurance” (public or private) was created. Hence, our current problems.

  • kerner

    I mean, in all our discussions of health care, how much time do we devote to developing a relationship bwetween what health care costs and what consumers (patients) can actually afford to pay? We just assume that nobody can pay for health care, so all we do is look for ways to subsidize it. And with that attitude, the costs are sure to rise. Which is what health care costs have done since “health insurance” (public or private) was created. Hence, our current problems.

  • DonS

    Because of the effects Kerner references @ 98, government intervention in the health care market, beginning in WWII when its stringent wage controls forced businesses to compete for employees by offering benefits like health insurance, our health care system is heavily over-utilized, and this demand has forced up prices excessively. As a result, it is no longer feasible for a typical local church body to assume full responsibility for its members’ health care.

    However, there are several Christian organizations which pool large numbers of Christians together to do exactly that. One such organization is Medi-Share (http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/). Another is Samaritan Ministries (http://www.samaritanministries.org/needprocess/). I have several good friends who participate in this kind of program, with stunning results. Basically, every month you are assigned to pay so much money (eg $287), and each month the organization tells you where to send your check ( a particular member family who has a medical need). When you have a medical need, you negotiate directly with the provider, picking up the cash discount price, which is typically about half the cost for those with insurance. Then, you receive full reimbursement in the form of checks from fellow members who have been directed to send their monthly fee/donation to you. From what I’ve been told by these friends, it is an awesome way to see the Body work to meet one another’s needs in a very direct way.

  • DonS

    Because of the effects Kerner references @ 98, government intervention in the health care market, beginning in WWII when its stringent wage controls forced businesses to compete for employees by offering benefits like health insurance, our health care system is heavily over-utilized, and this demand has forced up prices excessively. As a result, it is no longer feasible for a typical local church body to assume full responsibility for its members’ health care.

    However, there are several Christian organizations which pool large numbers of Christians together to do exactly that. One such organization is Medi-Share (http://mychristiancare.org/medi-share/). Another is Samaritan Ministries (http://www.samaritanministries.org/needprocess/). I have several good friends who participate in this kind of program, with stunning results. Basically, every month you are assigned to pay so much money (eg $287), and each month the organization tells you where to send your check ( a particular member family who has a medical need). When you have a medical need, you negotiate directly with the provider, picking up the cash discount price, which is typically about half the cost for those with insurance. Then, you receive full reimbursement in the form of checks from fellow members who have been directed to send their monthly fee/donation to you. From what I’ve been told by these friends, it is an awesome way to see the Body work to meet one another’s needs in a very direct way.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I mean, in all our discussions of health care, how much time do we devote to developing a relationship bwetween what health care costs and what consumers (patients) can actually afford to pay?”

    Now, this is getting to the real meat of the problem. The fact is we have developed fabulous technologies in health care and it cost a lot to do it. Notice, the third world did not do the same thing. Likewise they also can’t afford good health care, and they can’t get it either. Developed countries spend large fractions of their GDP on health care, partly because there is something worth buying. I agree that health care is not a free market, but I wonder if it were how many would be willing to provide health care for those who cannot and will not pay for it? The complex system we have that consists in private insurance, provider cost shifting, government programs Medicare and Medicaid means that people who would not be willing to pay even a reasonable amount for the services are still able to access services because our gov’t will go in debt to provide them. And yes, this steady sure stream invites and sustains waste, fraud and abuse. The truly free market in services and insurance is not possible because too large a fraction are unwilling or unable to pay for insurance or for services. Single payer like Canada and other countries have is still better than our new health care bill which enshrines crony capitalism healthcare into law.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I mean, in all our discussions of health care, how much time do we devote to developing a relationship bwetween what health care costs and what consumers (patients) can actually afford to pay?”

    Now, this is getting to the real meat of the problem. The fact is we have developed fabulous technologies in health care and it cost a lot to do it. Notice, the third world did not do the same thing. Likewise they also can’t afford good health care, and they can’t get it either. Developed countries spend large fractions of their GDP on health care, partly because there is something worth buying. I agree that health care is not a free market, but I wonder if it were how many would be willing to provide health care for those who cannot and will not pay for it? The complex system we have that consists in private insurance, provider cost shifting, government programs Medicare and Medicaid means that people who would not be willing to pay even a reasonable amount for the services are still able to access services because our gov’t will go in debt to provide them. And yes, this steady sure stream invites and sustains waste, fraud and abuse. The truly free market in services and insurance is not possible because too large a fraction are unwilling or unable to pay for insurance or for services. Single payer like Canada and other countries have is still better than our new health care bill which enshrines crony capitalism healthcare into law.

  • kerner

    I believe that the way to i9nject market forces into the health care system is through high deductable health insurance combined with HSA’s. The concept is that health “insurance” becomes like real insurance. That is, it only covers the extraordinary situation. Normal situations, say costs under $5,000.00-$10,000.00 are paid by the patient. The individual provides for that by having a healthcare savings account (HSA). Which should be tax deductable (or tax free if provided by the employer).

    The way it works is this. The patient has money in his HSA, but he knows if it runs out, he has to pay out of pocket. So the patient does NOT over use the health care system, and negotiates or shops for the best price/quality care he can find. Providers know that patients will do this, and become competitive about both price and quality. Meanwhile, the patient is covered by his high deductable insurance in case of a major health expense. You can also pick up accident insurance that will cover your deductable if you fall and break your leg or something.

    The cost of high deductable health insurance is really low compared to the “covers everything” plans we are used to, because the deductables are so high that the company only has to pay out in extraordinary circustances. Get a quote from several reputable companies here:

    http://www.health–savings–accounts.com/hsa-plans.htm

    If employers used these plans, AND made contributions to the employees’ HSAs, they could still cover their workers for less than 1/2 the cost of low deductable plans.

    The patient all of a sudden becomes mindful of the cost of tthhe actual health care services, not just the cost of his insurance, and acts accordingly. Effectively, the patient self rations his own health care to make sure he gets the care he needs or wants. This gives the patient some control over what services he gets and when.

  • kerner

    I believe that the way to i9nject market forces into the health care system is through high deductable health insurance combined with HSA’s. The concept is that health “insurance” becomes like real insurance. That is, it only covers the extraordinary situation. Normal situations, say costs under $5,000.00-$10,000.00 are paid by the patient. The individual provides for that by having a healthcare savings account (HSA). Which should be tax deductable (or tax free if provided by the employer).

    The way it works is this. The patient has money in his HSA, but he knows if it runs out, he has to pay out of pocket. So the patient does NOT over use the health care system, and negotiates or shops for the best price/quality care he can find. Providers know that patients will do this, and become competitive about both price and quality. Meanwhile, the patient is covered by his high deductable insurance in case of a major health expense. You can also pick up accident insurance that will cover your deductable if you fall and break your leg or something.

    The cost of high deductable health insurance is really low compared to the “covers everything” plans we are used to, because the deductables are so high that the company only has to pay out in extraordinary circustances. Get a quote from several reputable companies here:

    http://www.health–savings–accounts.com/hsa-plans.htm

    If employers used these plans, AND made contributions to the employees’ HSAs, they could still cover their workers for less than 1/2 the cost of low deductable plans.

    The patient all of a sudden becomes mindful of the cost of tthhe actual health care services, not just the cost of his insurance, and acts accordingly. Effectively, the patient self rations his own health care to make sure he gets the care he needs or wants. This gives the patient some control over what services he gets and when.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 101: We are on the same page on this one. Our firm also offers only HSA plans, and contributes to employee HSA’s to assist them in covering deductibles and copayments. Cost is much lower and employees are connected to the cost of healthcare. They are motivated to be good consumers because they get to keep and roll over any excess funds in their HSA accounts for future years. Also, once you reach retirement age, the HSA is like a 401k — you can use the funds for other purposes, though you will have to pay income tax if you do so.

    It’s too bad the trend in U.S. healthcare is in exactly the wrong direction.

  • DonS

    Kerner @ 101: We are on the same page on this one. Our firm also offers only HSA plans, and contributes to employee HSA’s to assist them in covering deductibles and copayments. Cost is much lower and employees are connected to the cost of healthcare. They are motivated to be good consumers because they get to keep and roll over any excess funds in their HSA accounts for future years. Also, once you reach retirement age, the HSA is like a 401k — you can use the funds for other purposes, though you will have to pay income tax if you do so.

    It’s too bad the trend in U.S. healthcare is in exactly the wrong direction.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X