Evidence homosexuality is not genetic

Wheaton provost Stanton L. Jones corrects an article in the New York Times and cites evidence that homosexuality is not genetic after all:  Identical twins, who have exactly the same genes, are not very likely (contrary to some reports) to both be gay.

Frank Bruni, in his essay “Genetic or Not, Gay Will Not Go Away“(New York Times, January 28, 2012), makes a broad point regarding which I am in complete agreement: Our societal, legal, and cultural debates will not be solved by science. But when you do cite the science, you ought to get it right. . . .

In support of the argument that at least sometimes sexual orientation is a condition of birth, Bruni describes how “One landmark study looked at gay men’s brothers and found that 52% of identical twin brothers were also gay.” This brief explanation both fails as a description of that 20+ year old study and fails to reflect the better research published since.

Bruni gets the number right; the 1990 landmark study by Bailey and Pillard reported a 52% “probandwise concordance” for homosexual orientation among genetically identical sibling groups, but this does not mean what Bruni says it means. A proband wise concordance is a technical calculation, one that in this case results from the following actual results: There were 41 genetically identical sibling groups (40 identical twin pairs and one triplet trio) and of these 41 groups, only in 14 of the groups did the genetically identical brothers match for sexual orientation; in the remaining 27 sets the identical twin brothers did not match.

But this 1990 study was actually based on a sample that was apparently distorted by volunteer bias and hence not representative of homosexual persons in general. Bailey’s own study of a decade later, and the recently published “gold standard” study by Långström et. al. of the Swedish Twin Registry, both found even lower matching among identical twins with much larger and more representative samples. Both studies reported about 10% matching (for Långström, 7 identical twin pairs matched with both identical brothers gay out of 71 total pairs of male identical twin pairs).

So in plain English, the best contemporary scientific findings are that when one identical twin brother is gay, the probabilities of the second twin being gay are approximately 10%. This suggests that the contribution of genetics to the determination of homosexual orientation is modest at best.

via The Genetics of Same-Sex Attraction » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Neil O’Donnell Jr.

    Its not genetic at all its sinful nature, no one is born a killer, bank robber or president. So how do people think they’re born this way? We are reproducers, between this and abortion I wonder what’s holding back Gods wrath? Christians praying obviously.

  • Neil O’Donnell Jr.

    Its not genetic at all its sinful nature, no one is born a killer, bank robber or president. So how do people think they’re born this way? We are reproducers, between this and abortion I wonder what’s holding back Gods wrath? Christians praying obviously.

  • Michael B.

    If someone has even a basic understanding of genetics, they would understand that something as trivial as a difference of 0.5 degrees Celsius in the womb can switch a gene on or off. Thus, while 2 people can have the same genetic makeup (genetype), they can have a different phenotype.

    What’s amazing is that there are some people who think that people would choose to be gay. Why would someone want to volunteer to become victims of a redneck agenda?

  • Michael B.

    If someone has even a basic understanding of genetics, they would understand that something as trivial as a difference of 0.5 degrees Celsius in the womb can switch a gene on or off. Thus, while 2 people can have the same genetic makeup (genetype), they can have a different phenotype.

    What’s amazing is that there are some people who think that people would choose to be gay. Why would someone want to volunteer to become victims of a redneck agenda?

  • Elgar B

    It’s poor conjecture that if someone was not genetically disposed to a condition, then they must have “chosen” it.

  • Elgar B

    It’s poor conjecture that if someone was not genetically disposed to a condition, then they must have “chosen” it.

  • George Logan

    To prove that genetics are a factor, one would have to also compare the “twins” findings with those of siblings that are not “twins.” If the percentage of the non-twins is significantly lower than those of the twins then one could deduce that genetics could have something to do with sexual orientation. If the percentage is not significantly different then the genetics explanation is much less plausible.

  • George Logan

    To prove that genetics are a factor, one would have to also compare the “twins” findings with those of siblings that are not “twins.” If the percentage of the non-twins is significantly lower than those of the twins then one could deduce that genetics could have something to do with sexual orientation. If the percentage is not significantly different then the genetics explanation is much less plausible.

  • Danny B.

    Michael, no one (at least no one sensible) is saying that people wake up one day and say “I think I want to be gay.” There are many factors involved, including absence of a father figure, abuse, etc. If it were purely a matter of genetics then we wouldn’t see patterns involving these factors.

  • Danny B.

    Michael, no one (at least no one sensible) is saying that people wake up one day and say “I think I want to be gay.” There are many factors involved, including absence of a father figure, abuse, etc. If it were purely a matter of genetics then we wouldn’t see patterns involving these factors.

  • eric

    Let’s be gentle. Genetics do have effects. It’s a fact that people with higher than normal testosterone levels tend to be more physically agressive, even violent. Should we not hold them accountable because they are at a genetic disadvantage? I think not, and so far our courts agree–sentencing for violent crimes is not pro-rated based on one’s testosterone levels. We should be able to come alongside those who struggle, WHATEVER the reason for their struggle, and exhort them to truth, but do so gently. Robert Godfrey said something in his first talk at the Fall 2010 Ligonier D.C. Conference that blew my socks off. (Paraphrase) “It’s easy to hold a protest against sins you don’t struggle with.”

  • eric

    Let’s be gentle. Genetics do have effects. It’s a fact that people with higher than normal testosterone levels tend to be more physically agressive, even violent. Should we not hold them accountable because they are at a genetic disadvantage? I think not, and so far our courts agree–sentencing for violent crimes is not pro-rated based on one’s testosterone levels. We should be able to come alongside those who struggle, WHATEVER the reason for their struggle, and exhort them to truth, but do so gently. Robert Godfrey said something in his first talk at the Fall 2010 Ligonier D.C. Conference that blew my socks off. (Paraphrase) “It’s easy to hold a protest against sins you don’t struggle with.”

  • Barb

    People choose things all the time that negatively affect their lives and the lives of others (adultery, stealing, lying, etc.). Your argument is invalid. That said, I would say that many (not all) individuals who choose a gay lifestyle make that choice because of deficiencies in their upbringing (distant or missing parents, abuse, poor role modeling). Certainly not always the case though.

  • Barb

    People choose things all the time that negatively affect their lives and the lives of others (adultery, stealing, lying, etc.). Your argument is invalid. That said, I would say that many (not all) individuals who choose a gay lifestyle make that choice because of deficiencies in their upbringing (distant or missing parents, abuse, poor role modeling). Certainly not always the case though.

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  • Tony

    It seems that we are not getting to the core issue, our sinful nature. We all sin to verying degrees, some more displeasing to God than others. God says homosexuality is an abomination. When I believed and chose to obey our creator, I turned away from my many sins. Many others many homosexuals, thieves, murderers, adulterers, etc. have done the same!

  • Tony

    It seems that we are not getting to the core issue, our sinful nature. We all sin to verying degrees, some more displeasing to God than others. God says homosexuality is an abomination. When I believed and chose to obey our creator, I turned away from my many sins. Many others many homosexuals, thieves, murderers, adulterers, etc. have done the same!

  • nativetexasn

    Eric- I appreciate your words. It is easy for us to criticize others’ sins. While we need to recognize sin for sin, we have to be aware that we are all “miserable sinners” in God’s eyes and in desperate need of his forgiveness. This should make us gentle and patient with sinners in any category. However, this is not the same as condoning societal approval of this behavior.

  • nativetexasn

    Eric- I appreciate your words. It is easy for us to criticize others’ sins. While we need to recognize sin for sin, we have to be aware that we are all “miserable sinners” in God’s eyes and in desperate need of his forgiveness. This should make us gentle and patient with sinners in any category. However, this is not the same as condoning societal approval of this behavior.

  • Tony

    And yes Barb, there usually are certain circumstances and upbringing that lead to the “choices” we make. It is my prayer that the one choice we all make is to love and obey our Father in heaven, and to fight against all the sinful desires of the flesh.

  • Tony

    And yes Barb, there usually are certain circumstances and upbringing that lead to the “choices” we make. It is my prayer that the one choice we all make is to love and obey our Father in heaven, and to fight against all the sinful desires of the flesh.

  • Tim Rayner

    What grieves me about this, Tony, is that I know of Christians who would quite happily boast about fiddling their taxes or getting something extra on their insurance (Proverbs 20:10) but would quite happily condemn to hell someone for merely being tempted towards homosexuality. I suspect that many who are trapped by Homosexuality know in their heart that what they are doing is wrong and does them no good but they need to hear about Grace and Forgiveness not the condemnation so often poured upon them by those who are not living honestly before God.

    Speaking as someone who struggled with an addiction to pornography for over 15 years I know how impossible it can seem for a lifestyle to change and know that I am in no position to pour condemnation on others. Speaking as one recently delivered from this (Praise God!) I can say that God can work miracles through his Grace.

    This is not to say that you are one of those mentioned or that what you said is wrong. Just that when speaking of sin it is always best to also remember God’s Grace.

  • Tim Rayner

    What grieves me about this, Tony, is that I know of Christians who would quite happily boast about fiddling their taxes or getting something extra on their insurance (Proverbs 20:10) but would quite happily condemn to hell someone for merely being tempted towards homosexuality. I suspect that many who are trapped by Homosexuality know in their heart that what they are doing is wrong and does them no good but they need to hear about Grace and Forgiveness not the condemnation so often poured upon them by those who are not living honestly before God.

    Speaking as someone who struggled with an addiction to pornography for over 15 years I know how impossible it can seem for a lifestyle to change and know that I am in no position to pour condemnation on others. Speaking as one recently delivered from this (Praise God!) I can say that God can work miracles through his Grace.

    This is not to say that you are one of those mentioned or that what you said is wrong. Just that when speaking of sin it is always best to also remember God’s Grace.

  • Boom

    I think homosexuality can come about by some type of difficulty while a child … For ex.. I was taken advantage of at 5 years old .. & grew up thinking masturbation was a normal thing.. Which led to lots of other sexual immoral things .. But God CAN & WILL cleanse those that want Him ! He did for me ! ;) ) I’m sure its the only way … !

  • Boom

    I think homosexuality can come about by some type of difficulty while a child … For ex.. I was taken advantage of at 5 years old .. & grew up thinking masturbation was a normal thing.. Which led to lots of other sexual immoral things .. But God CAN & WILL cleanse those that want Him ! He did for me ! ;) ) I’m sure its the only way … !

  • Jame

    Tony I agree with u totally, I also agree with eric we should exhort the weak in the spirit of gentleness. The entire human race inherited a nature that is antagonistic to God and his character, however, we have an opportunity to become new creatures in Christ Jesus. Born gay or not we all must be BORN AGAIN!!!

  • Jame

    Tony I agree with u totally, I also agree with eric we should exhort the weak in the spirit of gentleness. The entire human race inherited a nature that is antagonistic to God and his character, however, we have an opportunity to become new creatures in Christ Jesus. Born gay or not we all must be BORN AGAIN!!!

  • SKPeterson

    To some extent homosexuality is genetic. So is every other predisposition towards sin – be it the aforementioned sexual sins of pornography/adultery (of which we are almost all guilty, except those born with the gift of being “eunuchs” as Jesus says), murder, theft, and every single sin up to and including Commandments 1,2 and 3 from which all other sins flow.

    Our natures are broken. We carry the taint of original sin and we pass it on to our offsprings. We cannot escape the bondage of sin – it is, in effect, genetic. It goes to core of who we are – the incurvatus se. In fact, I would argue that the attempts to “normalize” homosexuality or to effectively “de-sin” it is part of the manifestation of the incurvatus and our rebellion against the 1st Commandment. We want to say what is or is not sin, and we want to make sure that who we are, or want to be, is deemed unsinful. We desperately want to justify ourselves in our own eyes and fool ourselves into believing that if we’re self-justified then that’s okay with God.

  • SKPeterson

    To some extent homosexuality is genetic. So is every other predisposition towards sin – be it the aforementioned sexual sins of pornography/adultery (of which we are almost all guilty, except those born with the gift of being “eunuchs” as Jesus says), murder, theft, and every single sin up to and including Commandments 1,2 and 3 from which all other sins flow.

    Our natures are broken. We carry the taint of original sin and we pass it on to our offsprings. We cannot escape the bondage of sin – it is, in effect, genetic. It goes to core of who we are – the incurvatus se. In fact, I would argue that the attempts to “normalize” homosexuality or to effectively “de-sin” it is part of the manifestation of the incurvatus and our rebellion against the 1st Commandment. We want to say what is or is not sin, and we want to make sure that who we are, or want to be, is deemed unsinful. We desperately want to justify ourselves in our own eyes and fool ourselves into believing that if we’re self-justified then that’s okay with God.

  • Tony

    Judgement belongs to God alone. You are right Tim and Jame, we are commanded to love the sinner yet hate the sin. 1 corinth 13:3 says without love we have nothing. Sadly Tim, those hypocrites you speek of are in great threat of judgement do to their lack of mercy James 2:13

  • Tony

    Judgement belongs to God alone. You are right Tim and Jame, we are commanded to love the sinner yet hate the sin. 1 corinth 13:3 says without love we have nothing. Sadly Tim, those hypocrites you speek of are in great threat of judgement do to their lack of mercy James 2:13

  • Charlie

    I wonder how many of the twin pairs in the study grew up in the same household? If all the subjects were not raised separately from their twins, then those who were raised together not only had the same genetics, but the same environment – and if environment plays a role (as I and many others believe it does), then the role of genetics is likely even less than 10%.

    I have twin nephews who are both same-sex attracted – but both grew up in the same household, and both were active in in competitive gymnastics, which I suspect may be rife with opportunities for same-sex sexual predation, between adults and older boys and an over-emphasis on physicality. I know that male figure skating is filled with “sugar daddies” who will sponsor a young man in his quest for a skating career- and expect something in return.

  • Charlie

    I wonder how many of the twin pairs in the study grew up in the same household? If all the subjects were not raised separately from their twins, then those who were raised together not only had the same genetics, but the same environment – and if environment plays a role (as I and many others believe it does), then the role of genetics is likely even less than 10%.

    I have twin nephews who are both same-sex attracted – but both grew up in the same household, and both were active in in competitive gymnastics, which I suspect may be rife with opportunities for same-sex sexual predation, between adults and older boys and an over-emphasis on physicality. I know that male figure skating is filled with “sugar daddies” who will sponsor a young man in his quest for a skating career- and expect something in return.

  • Laura

    I had a doctor who was gay and an identical twin. His identical twin was NOT gay. I often wondered how that must be at family gatherings for him to see a more masculine version of himself loving a woman. Weird to think of. He described his identical twin as “the nicer one” and the “first one to get the party started.” If I’m not mistaken, it sounds like his identical twin was happier than he was. This does not surprise me.

  • Laura

    I had a doctor who was gay and an identical twin. His identical twin was NOT gay. I often wondered how that must be at family gatherings for him to see a more masculine version of himself loving a woman. Weird to think of. He described his identical twin as “the nicer one” and the “first one to get the party started.” If I’m not mistaken, it sounds like his identical twin was happier than he was. This does not surprise me.

  • Esa

    If I may be so bold, I would suggest that same-sex attraction is often a generational iniquity leading to feeling “born gay”. It can also be brought on in later life by the issues brought up in earlier posts (abuse, neglect, molestation etc) which if not properly dealt with can create a stronghold of deception about orientation. When we look to others to feel needs only God can fill we set ourselves up to many ungodly lifestyle choices brought on by what we perceive as a legitimate need or longing. Homosexuality is no different. When we feel we need the affection, approval and love of someone who didn’t give it to us, we will look to find it in someone else. Whether it leads to same-sex or opposite sex attraction doesn’t really matter. Sex outside of God’s purpose and plan from creation is sin. I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of His people to the way HE sees this issue. He longs to be the Healer and Restorer of the broken-hearted and that is really what Homosexuality is…broken-heartedness. It’s HIS love that leads to repentance, and He loves every sinner, including me.

  • Esa

    If I may be so bold, I would suggest that same-sex attraction is often a generational iniquity leading to feeling “born gay”. It can also be brought on in later life by the issues brought up in earlier posts (abuse, neglect, molestation etc) which if not properly dealt with can create a stronghold of deception about orientation. When we look to others to feel needs only God can fill we set ourselves up to many ungodly lifestyle choices brought on by what we perceive as a legitimate need or longing. Homosexuality is no different. When we feel we need the affection, approval and love of someone who didn’t give it to us, we will look to find it in someone else. Whether it leads to same-sex or opposite sex attraction doesn’t really matter. Sex outside of God’s purpose and plan from creation is sin. I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of His people to the way HE sees this issue. He longs to be the Healer and Restorer of the broken-hearted and that is really what Homosexuality is…broken-heartedness. It’s HIS love that leads to repentance, and He loves every sinner, including me.

  • George Logan

    I agree with what is being said here, especially the fact that we all start with a sin nature bent against God. When I was young (11-12) I started feeling attraction towards a male friend. It was undeniable. Soon after that for reasons I could not then understand my “best friend” dropped out of my life completely. Now as a Christian I see God’s hand in it. In part because of that experience and mostly because of God’s grace, I seem to attact homosexuals (even closet ones) and minister Christ’s love to them. The cross of Christ is a leveler of all humanity, no matter what the “orientation” or sin.

  • George Logan

    I agree with what is being said here, especially the fact that we all start with a sin nature bent against God. When I was young (11-12) I started feeling attraction towards a male friend. It was undeniable. Soon after that for reasons I could not then understand my “best friend” dropped out of my life completely. Now as a Christian I see God’s hand in it. In part because of that experience and mostly because of God’s grace, I seem to attact homosexuals (even closet ones) and minister Christ’s love to them. The cross of Christ is a leveler of all humanity, no matter what the “orientation” or sin.

  • Jonathan

    Michael B,

    1. If genetics is, as you suggest, so muddied by such factors then why do geneticists think such correlation studies are significant in the first place? Do you think geneticists know anything about genetics?

    2. Gay people are not as hated and discriminated against as you suggest. The idea that gay people are so hated is more propaganda from the gay community than fact.

    3. Besides the fact that it just isn’t true that most people hate or discriminate against gays (http://tinyurl.com/7la7hth), your “logic” is ridiculous. A significant amount of people hate fundamentalist Christians. So I could rework your statement to the following: “What’s amazing is that there are some people who think that people would choose to be fundamentalist Christian. Why would someone want to volunteer to become victims of a liberal agenda?”

    A significant amount of people also hate fundamentalist Muslims. So we could rework your statement to the following: “What’s amazing is that there are some people who think that people would choose to be fundamentalist Muslim. Why would someone want to volunteer to become victims of a Western liberal agenda?”

    And so on and so forth. Clearly, you’ve got your thinking cap on backwards today.

  • Jonathan

    Michael B,

    1. If genetics is, as you suggest, so muddied by such factors then why do geneticists think such correlation studies are significant in the first place? Do you think geneticists know anything about genetics?

    2. Gay people are not as hated and discriminated against as you suggest. The idea that gay people are so hated is more propaganda from the gay community than fact.

    3. Besides the fact that it just isn’t true that most people hate or discriminate against gays (http://tinyurl.com/7la7hth), your “logic” is ridiculous. A significant amount of people hate fundamentalist Christians. So I could rework your statement to the following: “What’s amazing is that there are some people who think that people would choose to be fundamentalist Christian. Why would someone want to volunteer to become victims of a liberal agenda?”

    A significant amount of people also hate fundamentalist Muslims. So we could rework your statement to the following: “What’s amazing is that there are some people who think that people would choose to be fundamentalist Muslim. Why would someone want to volunteer to become victims of a Western liberal agenda?”

    And so on and so forth. Clearly, you’ve got your thinking cap on backwards today.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The distribution of gays in the population suggests that such an orientation is more likely congenital than genetic. It is distributed more like Down syndrome than like Tay Sachs. Also, what we know from history of the prevalence of same sex attraction seems to show that social attitudes towards it do affect the expression and practice of it. Greek and Roman gay culture was not like our contemporary situation.

    I disagree that rednecks are notable gay haters. Many other cultures are far more hostile to gays than rednecks who basically just don’t want gay’s attention directed at them or their kids. In the US, blacks are much less comfortable with gays than other groups are. Outside the US, muslims are certainly far less gay friendly than American rednecks. Maybe Michael B. just wants to self righteously distinguish himself from the wrong kind of white people. Still, I would agree that he has a point about the possibility of environmental factors affecting gene expression in relation to sexual orientation. It may not be likely, but it is possible.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The distribution of gays in the population suggests that such an orientation is more likely congenital than genetic. It is distributed more like Down syndrome than like Tay Sachs. Also, what we know from history of the prevalence of same sex attraction seems to show that social attitudes towards it do affect the expression and practice of it. Greek and Roman gay culture was not like our contemporary situation.

    I disagree that rednecks are notable gay haters. Many other cultures are far more hostile to gays than rednecks who basically just don’t want gay’s attention directed at them or their kids. In the US, blacks are much less comfortable with gays than other groups are. Outside the US, muslims are certainly far less gay friendly than American rednecks. Maybe Michael B. just wants to self righteously distinguish himself from the wrong kind of white people. Still, I would agree that he has a point about the possibility of environmental factors affecting gene expression in relation to sexual orientation. It may not be likely, but it is possible.

  • Mary Jack

    SKPeterson @14

    Speaking in terms of sinfulness being genetic is dangerous territory. People could hear that and understand that Jesus then must either be a sinner or not fully human. Mankind may be thoroughly corrupt, but we are not sin.

  • Mary Jack

    SKPeterson @14

    Speaking in terms of sinfulness being genetic is dangerous territory. People could hear that and understand that Jesus then must either be a sinner or not fully human. Mankind may be thoroughly corrupt, but we are not sin.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is a discussion of the heritability of homosexuality that leans towards Michael B.’s suggestion.

    http://www.gnxp.com/wp/2010/06/03/sexual-orientation-–-in-the-genes/

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is a discussion of the heritability of homosexuality that leans towards Michael B.’s suggestion.

    http://www.gnxp.com/wp/2010/06/03/sexual-orientation-–-in-the-genes/

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Is a proclivity for fornication and adultery biologically/genetically based?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Is a proclivity for fornication and adultery biologically/genetically based?

  • Bethanie

    @Jonathan, actually most people DON’T choose to be Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. In fact, a lot of those things are indoctrinated at a young age. One takes his or her children to church or mosque every week (or whenever Islam requires – I’m not sure on their specifics), and you pray with them and yada yada. The next thing you know, you have a Fundamentalist Christian little boy or girl. Almost everyone is the same religion as their parents.

  • Bethanie

    @Jonathan, actually most people DON’T choose to be Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. In fact, a lot of those things are indoctrinated at a young age. One takes his or her children to church or mosque every week (or whenever Islam requires – I’m not sure on their specifics), and you pray with them and yada yada. The next thing you know, you have a Fundamentalist Christian little boy or girl. Almost everyone is the same religion as their parents.

  • DonS

    I agree with those above that we all have a genetic predisposition toward certain sins in particular. Some of us have a particular predilection to substance abuse, some to lying, some to theft, some to sexual addiction, some to same sex attraction, gluttony, etc. This is above and beyond our general sin natures — I’m saying that we each struggle particularly with desires for certain sins. How do we respond to the particular temptations related to our individual weaknesses? That is the question, and the main point of the New Testament after the gospels. Triumph over the sins to which we are tempted. The good news is that we know there is victory in Christ.

  • DonS

    I agree with those above that we all have a genetic predisposition toward certain sins in particular. Some of us have a particular predilection to substance abuse, some to lying, some to theft, some to sexual addiction, some to same sex attraction, gluttony, etc. This is above and beyond our general sin natures — I’m saying that we each struggle particularly with desires for certain sins. How do we respond to the particular temptations related to our individual weaknesses? That is the question, and the main point of the New Testament after the gospels. Triumph over the sins to which we are tempted. The good news is that we know there is victory in Christ.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Is an identifiable organic cause an excuse to relabel a behavior generally understood as sinful?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Is an identifiable organic cause an excuse to relabel a behavior generally understood as sinful?

  • Ryan

    As far as I am concerned identifiable organic causes are irrelevant because if you think about homosexuality and what the Bible says about it and what the apostle Paul believed about it, the organic cause of homosexuality does not matter. However, what does matter is that homosexual acts are willful actions of unbridled lust.

  • Ryan

    As far as I am concerned identifiable organic causes are irrelevant because if you think about homosexuality and what the Bible says about it and what the apostle Paul believed about it, the organic cause of homosexuality does not matter. However, what does matter is that homosexual acts are willful actions of unbridled lust.

  • SKPeterson

    Mary Jack – does your sinning make you a sinner, or do you sin because you are a sinner? As a Lutheran I hold to the latter. I am a sinner because it is in my corrupt nature to sin – I am predisposed towards sin and not towards righteousness, it is the essence of the bondage of the will.

  • SKPeterson

    Mary Jack – does your sinning make you a sinner, or do you sin because you are a sinner? As a Lutheran I hold to the latter. I am a sinner because it is in my corrupt nature to sin – I am predisposed towards sin and not towards righteousness, it is the essence of the bondage of the will.

  • Grace

    Ryan @ 28

    “However, what does matter is that homosexual acts are willful actions of unbridled lust.”

    EXACTLY!

    12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    James 1

  • Grace

    Ryan @ 28

    “However, what does matter is that homosexual acts are willful actions of unbridled lust.”

    EXACTLY!

    12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    James 1

  • Cincinnatus

    Eh, homosexuality is a self-correcting problem, demographically speaking.

  • Cincinnatus

    Eh, homosexuality is a self-correcting problem, demographically speaking.

  • Jon

    @31 ???

  • Jon

    @31 ???

  • George A. Marquart

    The underlying argument in all of this is that if there is no genetic cause of homosexuality, then homosexuality is a life style choice. This is not true, and the sad thing is that most of those who are at least reasonably educated know it is not true. The current best scientific thinking is that homosexuality in men is caused by an in utero hormonal dysfunction by the mother. If so, and I personally believe the likelihood is extremely high, then homosexuality definitely is not a life style choice.

    The other underlying notion is that homosexuality is a worse sin, in the sight of God, than breaking the speed limit. But in both cases, the words of St. Paul apply, “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8:1. By which I mean to say that neither homosexuality nor breaking the speed limit should be encouraged, but neither should they be equated with the Sin against the Holy Spirit.

    Peace and Joy!
    George A. Marquart

  • George A. Marquart

    The underlying argument in all of this is that if there is no genetic cause of homosexuality, then homosexuality is a life style choice. This is not true, and the sad thing is that most of those who are at least reasonably educated know it is not true. The current best scientific thinking is that homosexuality in men is caused by an in utero hormonal dysfunction by the mother. If so, and I personally believe the likelihood is extremely high, then homosexuality definitely is not a life style choice.

    The other underlying notion is that homosexuality is a worse sin, in the sight of God, than breaking the speed limit. But in both cases, the words of St. Paul apply, “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Romans 8:1. By which I mean to say that neither homosexuality nor breaking the speed limit should be encouraged, but neither should they be equated with the Sin against the Holy Spirit.

    Peace and Joy!
    George A. Marquart

  • Charlie

    George, if you go back and read the comments, you will see that nearly all of us who commented on what we believe the cause to be said that it was a psycho-sexual development aberration – probably when abuse, abandonment (physical or emotional) by a male’s father (women have some other aspects involved), etc is added to a congenital predisposition.

    Same-sex attraction is not chosen. Same-sex sexual activity is. The sin does not lie in being attracted to members of one’s own sex – the sin is in being sexually active.

  • Charlie

    George, if you go back and read the comments, you will see that nearly all of us who commented on what we believe the cause to be said that it was a psycho-sexual development aberration – probably when abuse, abandonment (physical or emotional) by a male’s father (women have some other aspects involved), etc is added to a congenital predisposition.

    Same-sex attraction is not chosen. Same-sex sexual activity is. The sin does not lie in being attracted to members of one’s own sex – the sin is in being sexually active.

  • Cincinnatus

    Charlie:

    Careful there. While I agree that being (homo)sexually active is, indeed, sinful, the fact that the homosexual disposition may in fact be an involuntary, congenital disposition does not excuse it morally speaking, does it? If I were an alcoholic, like some members of my family, I would hardly call the predisposition to addiction and drunkenness morally (or, perhaps preferably, ontologically) neutral. Yes, electing to spend my days in drunkenness would be sinful. But my congenital predisposition to excessive alcohol consumption is a flaw and a falling short of the standards prescribed by what Lutherans call the “Law.”

    By my understanding of Christianity and soteriology, I am corrupt to my core, and said corruption is not merely actuated by explicit deeds. A homosexual’s desires are corrupt, whether he acts upon them or not. So are an alcoholic’s. Etc.

  • Cincinnatus

    Charlie:

    Careful there. While I agree that being (homo)sexually active is, indeed, sinful, the fact that the homosexual disposition may in fact be an involuntary, congenital disposition does not excuse it morally speaking, does it? If I were an alcoholic, like some members of my family, I would hardly call the predisposition to addiction and drunkenness morally (or, perhaps preferably, ontologically) neutral. Yes, electing to spend my days in drunkenness would be sinful. But my congenital predisposition to excessive alcohol consumption is a flaw and a falling short of the standards prescribed by what Lutherans call the “Law.”

    By my understanding of Christianity and soteriology, I am corrupt to my core, and said corruption is not merely actuated by explicit deeds. A homosexual’s desires are corrupt, whether he acts upon them or not. So are an alcoholic’s. Etc.

  • Michael B.

    I probably shouldn’t have used the term redneck because that brings up thoughts of race, socioeconomic status, and intelligence. When I say “redneck”, I mean a person who is not only small-minded, but proud of it. He’s the type of person who thinks that he’s among a small group of people that is loved by the Almighty, and that everyone else is going to hell. He believes Obama was born in another country, that women belong at home, the earth was created in 6 days, and that you can “pray the gay away”.

  • Michael B.

    I probably shouldn’t have used the term redneck because that brings up thoughts of race, socioeconomic status, and intelligence. When I say “redneck”, I mean a person who is not only small-minded, but proud of it. He’s the type of person who thinks that he’s among a small group of people that is loved by the Almighty, and that everyone else is going to hell. He believes Obama was born in another country, that women belong at home, the earth was created in 6 days, and that you can “pray the gay away”.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    He’s the type of person who thinks that he’s among a small group of people that is loved by the Almighty, and that everyone else is going to hell. He believes Obama was born in another country, that women belong at home, the earth was created in 6 days, and that you can “pray the gay away”.

    Gee, Michael B. could you be any more bigoted?

    Redneck means that the guy gets sunburned on the back of his neck from laboring in the sun. I guess that is only honorable if the guy entered the US illegally. If he is a poor American, then he is small minded. Maybe the small minded are the folks who think that prayer and religion is stupid and useless for any of life’s really difficult issues, and that motherhood isn’t a full time job, and felt Obama needn’t accede to the public requests for his birth records like all the other candidates did.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    He’s the type of person who thinks that he’s among a small group of people that is loved by the Almighty, and that everyone else is going to hell. He believes Obama was born in another country, that women belong at home, the earth was created in 6 days, and that you can “pray the gay away”.

    Gee, Michael B. could you be any more bigoted?

    Redneck means that the guy gets sunburned on the back of his neck from laboring in the sun. I guess that is only honorable if the guy entered the US illegally. If he is a poor American, then he is small minded. Maybe the small minded are the folks who think that prayer and religion is stupid and useless for any of life’s really difficult issues, and that motherhood isn’t a full time job, and felt Obama needn’t accede to the public requests for his birth records like all the other candidates did.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Small minded as in unwilling or maybe unable to understand or appreciate a different view. I’ll take the average redneck over the average SWPL.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Small minded as in unwilling or maybe unable to understand or appreciate a different view. I’ll take the average redneck over the average SWPL.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “He’s the type of person who thinks that he’s among a small group of people that is loved by the Almighty, and that everyone else is going to hell.”

    Under the Christian understanding all people are loved by the Almighty and salvation is available to all who see themselves as Cinn says, corrupt to the core. So, in order for these small minded rednecks to get to be in the group, they first have to see themselves as corrupt to the core. Now, just suppose these folks are as loathsome as you contend, do you then suppose the world would be greatly improved were they to no longer see themselves as corrupt and worthy of hell?

    I actually think we are probably better off with humans being challenged to see their own failings rather than just every man for himself or his tribe in dog eat dog will-to-power competition.

    What exactly would you use to constrain these contemptible small-minded creatures?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “He’s the type of person who thinks that he’s among a small group of people that is loved by the Almighty, and that everyone else is going to hell.”

    Under the Christian understanding all people are loved by the Almighty and salvation is available to all who see themselves as Cinn says, corrupt to the core. So, in order for these small minded rednecks to get to be in the group, they first have to see themselves as corrupt to the core. Now, just suppose these folks are as loathsome as you contend, do you then suppose the world would be greatly improved were they to no longer see themselves as corrupt and worthy of hell?

    I actually think we are probably better off with humans being challenged to see their own failings rather than just every man for himself or his tribe in dog eat dog will-to-power competition.

    What exactly would you use to constrain these contemptible small-minded creatures?

  • Michael B.

    I’ve been reading through this thread, and it seems like a lot of people have never read the bible. Where in the bible does it say god loves everyone? Why does the bible say “god hated esau”? Does god love the people who he is going to send to hell? Did he love the people in Sodom or the people he drowned in the flood?

    And SG mentions that all people are completely contemptible, and hate god. But that’s before they get saved, and become a new creature in Christ, isn’t it? It’s basically your unsaved, that is everyone else who doesn’t share your religious views who are completely contemptible, like Catholics, Jews, and Hindus.

    Finally, the Apostle Paul has some views on homosexuality that no one seems to be bringing up. In Romans chapter 1, Paul’s view is that homosexual desire is caused by god, as a punishment. People are giving over to “shameful lusts and desires”.

  • Michael B.

    I’ve been reading through this thread, and it seems like a lot of people have never read the bible. Where in the bible does it say god loves everyone? Why does the bible say “god hated esau”? Does god love the people who he is going to send to hell? Did he love the people in Sodom or the people he drowned in the flood?

    And SG mentions that all people are completely contemptible, and hate god. But that’s before they get saved, and become a new creature in Christ, isn’t it? It’s basically your unsaved, that is everyone else who doesn’t share your religious views who are completely contemptible, like Catholics, Jews, and Hindus.

    Finally, the Apostle Paul has some views on homosexuality that no one seems to be bringing up. In Romans chapter 1, Paul’s view is that homosexual desire is caused by god, as a punishment. People are giving over to “shameful lusts and desires”.

  • Charlie

    Michael B – God loves all humanity for they are his children; he created humanity. But his love does not mean that all will be restored to fellowship with him. He loves us all enough to be just to us, and that means we all deserve punishment for our rebellion against him. For reasons we do not know and cannot understand, God has chosen to bring certain of his fallen creatures into a reconciled and restored relationship with him. He is and was under no obligation to do so, but he has chosen some (an enormous number, as we know from Revelation) to be forgiven through the atoning death of Jesus. God is not unjust in this, for sin is still punished – and if God allows justice to still fall upon the others, they have received no more than they deserved.

    We who have trusted in that atoning work are called to love all our fellow human beings – we can treat no one with contempt. Yes, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, etc do not now trust the living God – but we do not know who God’s elect are, and he saves some of the most unlikely people imaginable. In addition, because all human beings are created in God’s image, they deserve respect and fair dealings. No one is contemptible.

    I have long thought that same-sex sexual activity is, in the long run, its own punishment. But then, viewing my own sins, I find that they would be as well, if left unchecked.

    PS to Cinncinatus – yes, same-sex attraction is inherently disordered. As you note, we all are disordered in our desires, and under condemnation for seeking, in desire if not in actuality, to do other than God’s revealed will. However, the question is whether we seek our disordered desires or if we surrender them in faith to the Lord for correction and cleansing. We do not choose our temptations; we do choose our responses to them.

  • Charlie

    Michael B – God loves all humanity for they are his children; he created humanity. But his love does not mean that all will be restored to fellowship with him. He loves us all enough to be just to us, and that means we all deserve punishment for our rebellion against him. For reasons we do not know and cannot understand, God has chosen to bring certain of his fallen creatures into a reconciled and restored relationship with him. He is and was under no obligation to do so, but he has chosen some (an enormous number, as we know from Revelation) to be forgiven through the atoning death of Jesus. God is not unjust in this, for sin is still punished – and if God allows justice to still fall upon the others, they have received no more than they deserved.

    We who have trusted in that atoning work are called to love all our fellow human beings – we can treat no one with contempt. Yes, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, etc do not now trust the living God – but we do not know who God’s elect are, and he saves some of the most unlikely people imaginable. In addition, because all human beings are created in God’s image, they deserve respect and fair dealings. No one is contemptible.

    I have long thought that same-sex sexual activity is, in the long run, its own punishment. But then, viewing my own sins, I find that they would be as well, if left unchecked.

    PS to Cinncinatus – yes, same-sex attraction is inherently disordered. As you note, we all are disordered in our desires, and under condemnation for seeking, in desire if not in actuality, to do other than God’s revealed will. However, the question is whether we seek our disordered desires or if we surrender them in faith to the Lord for correction and cleansing. We do not choose our temptations; we do choose our responses to them.

  • Greg

    To answer Neils comment, the sin nature is Genetic!!! Hellooo!

  • Greg

    To answer Neils comment, the sin nature is Genetic!!! Hellooo!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Where in the bible does it say god loves everyone?”

    John 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Where in the bible does it say god loves everyone?”

    John 3:16

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s basically your unsaved, that is everyone else who doesn’t share your religious views who are completely contemptible, like Catholics, Jews, and Hindus.”

    No, those are the ones God loves and Christ died to redeem and whom Christians have tried to reach with the news. Catholics, of course have heard and accepted salvation.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “It’s basically your unsaved, that is everyone else who doesn’t share your religious views who are completely contemptible, like Catholics, Jews, and Hindus.”

    No, those are the ones God loves and Christ died to redeem and whom Christians have tried to reach with the news. Catholics, of course have heard and accepted salvation.

  • Nathan

    Though it may not be genetic, there is definitely a biological difference. The brain of a homosexual differs from that of their heterosexual counterpart. Not just in the way they think but in the actual composition. Homosexual men and heterosexual females exhibit cerebral symmetry while homosexual female and heterosexual males exhibit cerebral assymety with a larger right hemisphere. There are a couple of other likenesses following the same tendency. The differentiation point for all of this is in the womb.

    Savic and Lindstrom. (2008) PET and MRI show difference in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

  • Nathan

    Though it may not be genetic, there is definitely a biological difference. The brain of a homosexual differs from that of their heterosexual counterpart. Not just in the way they think but in the actual composition. Homosexual men and heterosexual females exhibit cerebral symmetry while homosexual female and heterosexual males exhibit cerebral assymety with a larger right hemisphere. There are a couple of other likenesses following the same tendency. The differentiation point for all of this is in the womb.

    Savic and Lindstrom. (2008) PET and MRI show difference in cerebral asymmetry and functional connectivity between homo- and heterosexual subjects. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

  • Js

    I personally don’t understand how we can have a sinful nature when we have a loving God. God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten son to save us all from the sin that he is cause us to do? Doesn’t the Bible say in Ps 139 that ” you formed my innermost parts… You knit me together in my mothers womb.” if God really did have such a role to play in each of us, why would He do that? So Adam was really the only guy that had a choice and the rest of us get stuck with the predisposition to do the same crap that we’re commanded not to do? Doesn’t sound like sin is a choice.. And if that’s the case then I would say that homosexuality is Gods fault not anyone else’s. I struggle with this concept. But that’s just me.

  • Js

    I personally don’t understand how we can have a sinful nature when we have a loving God. God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten son to save us all from the sin that he is cause us to do? Doesn’t the Bible say in Ps 139 that ” you formed my innermost parts… You knit me together in my mothers womb.” if God really did have such a role to play in each of us, why would He do that? So Adam was really the only guy that had a choice and the rest of us get stuck with the predisposition to do the same crap that we’re commanded not to do? Doesn’t sound like sin is a choice.. And if that’s the case then I would say that homosexuality is Gods fault not anyone else’s. I struggle with this concept. But that’s just me.

  • Joanne

    For God so loved the world that he drowned to death every living thing that was not upon the Ark. God condemned all humanity to pain and misery and death because one woman and one man ate a piece of fruit that God had forbidden them. God damned his angel, Satan and the angels who followed Satan, apparently because Satan was proud. God sent a migration of poisonous snakes to bite and kill his disobedient chosen chidren. God told Moses to kill all the Midianites, with whom Moses has lived in exile and taken a wife, who had been the allies of Israel all through their time in the desert. Yet when they arrived at the entrance to the promised land God had Moses kill them all except the virgin girls.

    Does anybody want to quibble with a God like this, or to say to such a killer, your punishments were too great for the smallness of these sins?

    Do you fear God?

    The God who says through his apostle Paul, that gossiping is an utter abomination to Him. The God that said that unless you give up all the possessions that you have by giving them to the poor that you cannot follow Him. Be perfect, just as your father in heaven is perfect. I do not allow divorce as Moses did. But, Lord who can live with such harsh laws? To punish you I have corrupted the very affections of your heart and leave you begging in the dust for what you will never have. I corrupted your very will so that you can’t even will to come to me or to beg my forgiveness. Sin is your only choice.

    Are we lucky or what? This same God, who burns with anger at us, somehow still loves us enough to send his only Son into the world so that we would kill him, therefore making him the sacrifice that God’ perfect justice demands for our sins. His perfect justice proclaims that their are no small sins that don’t need to be covered by the blood of his sacrificed Son.

    And to those on whom he will have mercy, he gives his Holy Spirit who puts faith in our hearts, faith in the sacrificed Son, and then sins can be hidden from the face of God’s perfect justice.

    Those of you who are divorced know how impossible it is for humans to maintain a loveless or abusive marriage, and divorce is a sin you live with for the rest of you life because you just couldn’t love your spouse any longer. Your affections for your spouses have been corrupted by sin. If you divorced people know what it is like to still love a spouse who has no love for you, then you know the pain that God gave us in Eden. Can God really expect you to stay married to someone who has no love for you? The apostles didn’t think so; Jesus demanded it.

    How does all this fit into this thread? Anyone who has felt the pangs of corrupted affection, knows the central truth of God’s anger toward sinners, and especially those whom he has particularly punished with affections that can never be returned nor celebrated. It’s a cruel punishment, but very similar to the pain of Divorce. Our will and our affections are corrupted by sin and only God’s decision to ignore our sins because of his Son’s sacrifice, makes life bearable for us at all.

    I’m not going to quibble with our angry God about what is sin and what isn’t. I’m going to plead guilty of all sins and pray that His Sprit give me the power to escape from as many as God’s plan for my life will allow. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

  • Joanne

    For God so loved the world that he drowned to death every living thing that was not upon the Ark. God condemned all humanity to pain and misery and death because one woman and one man ate a piece of fruit that God had forbidden them. God damned his angel, Satan and the angels who followed Satan, apparently because Satan was proud. God sent a migration of poisonous snakes to bite and kill his disobedient chosen chidren. God told Moses to kill all the Midianites, with whom Moses has lived in exile and taken a wife, who had been the allies of Israel all through their time in the desert. Yet when they arrived at the entrance to the promised land God had Moses kill them all except the virgin girls.

    Does anybody want to quibble with a God like this, or to say to such a killer, your punishments were too great for the smallness of these sins?

    Do you fear God?

    The God who says through his apostle Paul, that gossiping is an utter abomination to Him. The God that said that unless you give up all the possessions that you have by giving them to the poor that you cannot follow Him. Be perfect, just as your father in heaven is perfect. I do not allow divorce as Moses did. But, Lord who can live with such harsh laws? To punish you I have corrupted the very affections of your heart and leave you begging in the dust for what you will never have. I corrupted your very will so that you can’t even will to come to me or to beg my forgiveness. Sin is your only choice.

    Are we lucky or what? This same God, who burns with anger at us, somehow still loves us enough to send his only Son into the world so that we would kill him, therefore making him the sacrifice that God’ perfect justice demands for our sins. His perfect justice proclaims that their are no small sins that don’t need to be covered by the blood of his sacrificed Son.

    And to those on whom he will have mercy, he gives his Holy Spirit who puts faith in our hearts, faith in the sacrificed Son, and then sins can be hidden from the face of God’s perfect justice.

    Those of you who are divorced know how impossible it is for humans to maintain a loveless or abusive marriage, and divorce is a sin you live with for the rest of you life because you just couldn’t love your spouse any longer. Your affections for your spouses have been corrupted by sin. If you divorced people know what it is like to still love a spouse who has no love for you, then you know the pain that God gave us in Eden. Can God really expect you to stay married to someone who has no love for you? The apostles didn’t think so; Jesus demanded it.

    How does all this fit into this thread? Anyone who has felt the pangs of corrupted affection, knows the central truth of God’s anger toward sinners, and especially those whom he has particularly punished with affections that can never be returned nor celebrated. It’s a cruel punishment, but very similar to the pain of Divorce. Our will and our affections are corrupted by sin and only God’s decision to ignore our sins because of his Son’s sacrifice, makes life bearable for us at all.

    I’m not going to quibble with our angry God about what is sin and what isn’t. I’m going to plead guilty of all sins and pray that His Sprit give me the power to escape from as many as God’s plan for my life will allow. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

  • Michael B.

    Apparently, somebody else on here (Joanne) has actually read the Bible. When I was 13, I remember losing a debate to my friend’s fundamentalist father on the nature of god:

    Me:
    God is loving and loves everyone. John 3:16 says so. He also loves all children.

    My Friend’s Father:
    Mikey, You’re extremely ignorant and you’re worshiping a hippie god. Did God love the people he drowned in the flood, including the women and children? No serious scholar would translate John 3:16 as applying to all humanity, but only the elect.

    Me:
    But the Bible says that Jesus loves the little children, all the children in the world. The Bible also says that “Jesus loves me; this I know”. Are you saying that the Bible is lying?

    My friend’s father:
    Mikey, you’ve just shown how ignorant you are again. Those are stupid Sunday school songs, not scripture. You try finding in the Bible where is says God loves all children, let alone all people. A lot of children died in the flood and in Sodom. Go inside any children’s hospital and see if God’s wrath against Adam’s sin isn’t manifest. If God loves everyone, he must owe the inhabitants of Sodom a big apology.

  • Michael B.

    Apparently, somebody else on here (Joanne) has actually read the Bible. When I was 13, I remember losing a debate to my friend’s fundamentalist father on the nature of god:

    Me:
    God is loving and loves everyone. John 3:16 says so. He also loves all children.

    My Friend’s Father:
    Mikey, You’re extremely ignorant and you’re worshiping a hippie god. Did God love the people he drowned in the flood, including the women and children? No serious scholar would translate John 3:16 as applying to all humanity, but only the elect.

    Me:
    But the Bible says that Jesus loves the little children, all the children in the world. The Bible also says that “Jesus loves me; this I know”. Are you saying that the Bible is lying?

    My friend’s father:
    Mikey, you’ve just shown how ignorant you are again. Those are stupid Sunday school songs, not scripture. You try finding in the Bible where is says God loves all children, let alone all people. A lot of children died in the flood and in Sodom. Go inside any children’s hospital and see if God’s wrath against Adam’s sin isn’t manifest. If God loves everyone, he must owe the inhabitants of Sodom a big apology.

  • Js

    Michael, I’m sorry that you had such an obviously angry man try to explain God to you. That’s unfortunate. Have you read the story of sodom? Did you skip over the part where Abraham and God were talking and He said if they were only ten righteous in the city he would spare it. And that when He sent two of His angel to investigate the people tried to rape them? And when it says that the Angels struck all of them with blindness they wearied themselves to exhaustion trying to break through the door where the angels were to have sex with them.

    Or maybe the story of Jericho? Where they are now finding evidence that every man, woman, child and animal had syphilis. If you we’re God would you want these people running all over society infecting everyone else?

    What about the story of Jonah? Where God told Jonah to tell the ninevites that there was forty days and then destruction. But the people repented and God relented from the just judgement that they deserved. Even though he never gave that as an option. Don’t tell me that God doesn’t love everyone. He does, He absolutely does. But when the people that He creates begin to make decisions that in affect hurt everyone surrounded by them what do you think the right response would be? In the flood the bible says that every thought and intention of everyone’s heart was continually wicked. And when it says that God was grieved that He had made man it literally means the breathe has been knocked out of him with so much pain. Have you ever been hurt so badly by someone else that you couldn’t breathe because it hurt so badly. Now does that sound like a God that doesn’t love every single person that has ever lived or will live? Not to me. And yes I have read my Bible. Next time you read it. Read it in context, do some digging into the history. Don’t just read the surface, there is so much truth about the Love of God that it overwhelms me. I will leave it with this verse: “Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?” (Romans 2:4 NASB)

  • Js

    Michael, I’m sorry that you had such an obviously angry man try to explain God to you. That’s unfortunate. Have you read the story of sodom? Did you skip over the part where Abraham and God were talking and He said if they were only ten righteous in the city he would spare it. And that when He sent two of His angel to investigate the people tried to rape them? And when it says that the Angels struck all of them with blindness they wearied themselves to exhaustion trying to break through the door where the angels were to have sex with them.

    Or maybe the story of Jericho? Where they are now finding evidence that every man, woman, child and animal had syphilis. If you we’re God would you want these people running all over society infecting everyone else?

    What about the story of Jonah? Where God told Jonah to tell the ninevites that there was forty days and then destruction. But the people repented and God relented from the just judgement that they deserved. Even though he never gave that as an option. Don’t tell me that God doesn’t love everyone. He does, He absolutely does. But when the people that He creates begin to make decisions that in affect hurt everyone surrounded by them what do you think the right response would be? In the flood the bible says that every thought and intention of everyone’s heart was continually wicked. And when it says that God was grieved that He had made man it literally means the breathe has been knocked out of him with so much pain. Have you ever been hurt so badly by someone else that you couldn’t breathe because it hurt so badly. Now does that sound like a God that doesn’t love every single person that has ever lived or will live? Not to me. And yes I have read my Bible. Next time you read it. Read it in context, do some digging into the history. Don’t just read the surface, there is so much truth about the Love of God that it overwhelms me. I will leave it with this verse: “Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?” (Romans 2:4 NASB)

  • Daniel

    Gays dont choose to be gay, some of them come out; some of them hide, merry women, have children and LIE to society.. Is it what God wants.. If church say so, then this church is satanic.. Cause in the past church said black people were not humans, women had not soul, and to work on saturday makes you go to hell… Religions are so paradoxal sometimes.

  • Daniel

    Gays dont choose to be gay, some of them come out; some of them hide, merry women, have children and LIE to society.. Is it what God wants.. If church say so, then this church is satanic.. Cause in the past church said black people were not humans, women had not soul, and to work on saturday makes you go to hell… Religions are so paradoxal sometimes.

  • Cincinnatus

    Nice hysterics, Daniel. You seem to be an expert on the subject. I’d like to hear more about how the Church once taught that women have no soul!

  • Cincinnatus

    Nice hysterics, Daniel. You seem to be an expert on the subject. I’d like to hear more about how the Church once taught that women have no soul!

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  • Nick

    Neil Odonnel: it’s not Christians praying back Gods wrath, it’s Christ.

  • Nick

    Neil Odonnel: it’s not Christians praying back Gods wrath, it’s Christ.

  • fws

    Cincinatus

    “A homosexual’s desires are corrupt, whether he acts upon them or not. So are an alcoholic’s. Etc.”

    This is to say that all desire is corrupt. Including all desires of a heterosexual. This is most certainly true!

    Original sin is the total lack and absence of faith and trust in the heart in the Work of Another. The original righeousness of Adam was this trust and faith in the Work of God and to lo0k to him alone for goodness and mercy . The Lutheran Confessions identify this Adamic righeousness as the Very Image of God. It was entirely and utterly lost. The roman scholastics are wrong to say that the image of God is located in that which separates man from beast in reason and love. this is pagan aristotelianism. And in that case, a spark of the Image of God and that original right-eousness remains and merely needs to be fanned into a flame.

    And what fills that void of fear love and trust in the right Object which is the Works of Another? Old Adam viciously fills that void by insisting on placing faith in any Object other than God. Old Adam looks to find goodness and mercy in anything but God.

    So the problem, original sin, is all about the desire of the heart. the greek word is the same word translated both as lust and covet. Covet is the better word here. Covet is misplaced desire.

    So cinncinatus. bingo! So ALL human desire, whether heterosexual or homosexual is by nature sinful and unclean and misdirected. It is objectively disordered one should declare.

    Only when the prophecy of jer 33 is fulfilled by baptismal regeneration is the law again written in the hearts of man and mankind once again has desires in his New Man that agrees with the desires of God for goodness and mercy to be done among men according to Gods Will.

    what you say is very radical cincinatus. And the truth of what you say can only be known by the regenerate from the Word of God. Reason cannot know or accept the depths of our depravity.

    This is precisely where both rome and the reformed miss the boat. when the reformed talk about total depravity they talk about a lack of conformity to the Law. The problem is deeper. It goes to the depths of the desires of every heart in its will and its very soul. There is no such think as UNwillful sin. In all sin we are committed and fully so to it in body, mind and soul.

    where is the deliverance from this? In our Spirit enabled will power? no. It is alone in the Works of Another. Do we need to exercise our reason and will to control our baser instincts and emotions. Of course we do. And even the pagan aristotle knows this to be a fact. this work will help us avoid pain and punishment from God on earth and allow us to live a happy and long life. But this work that God demands of all here on earth ends with this life. And this is all an exercise in death. there is no Life in this. There is only creaturely betterment of life for others in our mortification. If we wish to deal with God we must aim higher. Then we must rely , alone, upon the Works of Another for Life.

  • fws

    Cincinatus

    “A homosexual’s desires are corrupt, whether he acts upon them or not. So are an alcoholic’s. Etc.”

    This is to say that all desire is corrupt. Including all desires of a heterosexual. This is most certainly true!

    Original sin is the total lack and absence of faith and trust in the heart in the Work of Another. The original righeousness of Adam was this trust and faith in the Work of God and to lo0k to him alone for goodness and mercy . The Lutheran Confessions identify this Adamic righeousness as the Very Image of God. It was entirely and utterly lost. The roman scholastics are wrong to say that the image of God is located in that which separates man from beast in reason and love. this is pagan aristotelianism. And in that case, a spark of the Image of God and that original right-eousness remains and merely needs to be fanned into a flame.

    And what fills that void of fear love and trust in the right Object which is the Works of Another? Old Adam viciously fills that void by insisting on placing faith in any Object other than God. Old Adam looks to find goodness and mercy in anything but God.

    So the problem, original sin, is all about the desire of the heart. the greek word is the same word translated both as lust and covet. Covet is the better word here. Covet is misplaced desire.

    So cinncinatus. bingo! So ALL human desire, whether heterosexual or homosexual is by nature sinful and unclean and misdirected. It is objectively disordered one should declare.

    Only when the prophecy of jer 33 is fulfilled by baptismal regeneration is the law again written in the hearts of man and mankind once again has desires in his New Man that agrees with the desires of God for goodness and mercy to be done among men according to Gods Will.

    what you say is very radical cincinatus. And the truth of what you say can only be known by the regenerate from the Word of God. Reason cannot know or accept the depths of our depravity.

    This is precisely where both rome and the reformed miss the boat. when the reformed talk about total depravity they talk about a lack of conformity to the Law. The problem is deeper. It goes to the depths of the desires of every heart in its will and its very soul. There is no such think as UNwillful sin. In all sin we are committed and fully so to it in body, mind and soul.

    where is the deliverance from this? In our Spirit enabled will power? no. It is alone in the Works of Another. Do we need to exercise our reason and will to control our baser instincts and emotions. Of course we do. And even the pagan aristotle knows this to be a fact. this work will help us avoid pain and punishment from God on earth and allow us to live a happy and long life. But this work that God demands of all here on earth ends with this life. And this is all an exercise in death. there is no Life in this. There is only creaturely betterment of life for others in our mortification. If we wish to deal with God we must aim higher. Then we must rely , alone, upon the Works of Another for Life.

  • Suzanne

    I have a very simple suggestion to calm all the rhetoric concerning sexuality and biology. Read Matthew 19. Jesus, himself, spoke of biology long before any of us tried figuring this gay thing out. As Christ presents, biology (the first reason he gives for being a eunuch) is often the reason for some being given to the state of a eunuch. Whether male or female, the point is, some are BORN THAT WAY FROM THEIR MOTHERS WOMB.

    Now, scientifically speaking, it stands to reason that if a man can be born without desire for a female, then the reverse would most likely also be true. Additionally, since some may be born, as what is more commonly known as asexual (celibate), then it also makes scientific sense that one can also be born homosexual or bi-sexual. Again, whatever the issue or sex involved, Jesus was the one who made it clear that those born that way will not follow the traditional marriage model.

    For any Christian thinking they need scientific evidence, there it is. Just because we have not found a “gay gene”, does not mean scientific proof does not exist and therefore one cannot be born gay. Only when the idea is reversed does one see how ridiculous it is. There is no “straight gene”, yet I guarantee every heterosexual will tell you they are born straight.

  • Suzanne

    I have a very simple suggestion to calm all the rhetoric concerning sexuality and biology. Read Matthew 19. Jesus, himself, spoke of biology long before any of us tried figuring this gay thing out. As Christ presents, biology (the first reason he gives for being a eunuch) is often the reason for some being given to the state of a eunuch. Whether male or female, the point is, some are BORN THAT WAY FROM THEIR MOTHERS WOMB.

    Now, scientifically speaking, it stands to reason that if a man can be born without desire for a female, then the reverse would most likely also be true. Additionally, since some may be born, as what is more commonly known as asexual (celibate), then it also makes scientific sense that one can also be born homosexual or bi-sexual. Again, whatever the issue or sex involved, Jesus was the one who made it clear that those born that way will not follow the traditional marriage model.

    For any Christian thinking they need scientific evidence, there it is. Just because we have not found a “gay gene”, does not mean scientific proof does not exist and therefore one cannot be born gay. Only when the idea is reversed does one see how ridiculous it is. There is no “straight gene”, yet I guarantee every heterosexual will tell you they are born straight.

  • Grace

    Suzanne @ 54

    Do you know what a “eunuch” is? A eunuch is not defined in any way as a homosexual in Mathew 19.

    For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
    Matthew 19:12

    eunuch Strong’s Greek Dictionary

    eunouchos – yoo-noo’-khos

    a castrated person (such being employed in Oriental bed-chambers); by extension an impotent or unmarried man; by implication, a chamberlain (state-officer):–eunuch.

  • Grace

    Suzanne @ 54

    Do you know what a “eunuch” is? A eunuch is not defined in any way as a homosexual in Mathew 19.

    For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
    Matthew 19:12

    eunuch Strong’s Greek Dictionary

    eunouchos – yoo-noo’-khos

    a castrated person (such being employed in Oriental bed-chambers); by extension an impotent or unmarried man; by implication, a chamberlain (state-officer):–eunuch.

  • fws

    Grace @ 55

    Ok overlay the inspired words of Christ on your uninspired strong’s:

    “And some were born [ a castrated person to guard concubines, impotent, or unmarried] from their mother’s womb.”

    It doesn’t fit does it?
    Apparently Jesus had a different definition of Eunuch.

    Nuance: It is good to be a little more careful Grace when we parse what someone else says.

    I think suzanne is suggesting this: if God can make someone from birth to be a eunuch, he can make someone to be a homosexual or lesbian or whatever.

    I agree that “eunuch” does not equal “homosexual” here.
    And I suggest that neither is Suzanne saying that.

    Her argument is a different one than the one you think she is making.

  • fws

    Grace @ 55

    Ok overlay the inspired words of Christ on your uninspired strong’s:

    “And some were born [ a castrated person to guard concubines, impotent, or unmarried] from their mother’s womb.”

    It doesn’t fit does it?
    Apparently Jesus had a different definition of Eunuch.

    Nuance: It is good to be a little more careful Grace when we parse what someone else says.

    I think suzanne is suggesting this: if God can make someone from birth to be a eunuch, he can make someone to be a homosexual or lesbian or whatever.

    I agree that “eunuch” does not equal “homosexual” here.
    And I suggest that neither is Suzanne saying that.

    Her argument is a different one than the one you think she is making.

  • Charlie

    Suzanne, Jesus is talking about marriage in this passage and says that there are three reasons why a person might not get married, in spite of the fact that God designed human beings for opposite-sex marriage and expected that most people would indeed get married. The first two reasons Jesus gives are a subset of the reality that some people are either sterile or impotent – some congenitally and some by castration. A third reason a person might not get married is that, for the sake of the Kingdom, they have given up marriage. The passage says nothing of desire or orientation of desire. Most people who lack testes or ovaries do have a low desire because of the endocrine issues involved, but that is not what Jesus is talking about.

    Jesus always speaks of marriage as a matter of a man and a woman, as we see in his citation of Gen 2. And he condemns all forms of sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage when he speaks of “sexual immorality,” that being a phrase which was used at the time to refer to fornication, adultery, and same-sex sexual activity under an “umbrella” term. He never condemns same-sex sexual activity per se, because he has already condemned it in condemning extra-marital sexual activity.

    As for people being “born straight” – of course they are. It is the natural design set up by our Creator. One of the first dicta architectural students learn is “form follows function.” Male and female are designed to interact sexually with one another, and to do so for the natural reason sexual differentiation was created: procreation. Two males cannot interact sexually with each other without using a non-sexual part of their body to do so, and the same is true of women – and neither two men nor two women can procreate by themselves.

    We do not know why those with same-sex attraction have that attraction, but it is most likely a derailing of natural psycho-sexual development. The ex-gay ministries of Exodus, International, have devised programs to help people leave same-sex sexual activity and to moderate or eliminate their same-sex attractions. Such programs are a lot like AA and involve reading, prayer, and reflection. Like AA, not everyone is successful – but many are. I know several such persons myself, and I know of many more.

  • Charlie

    Suzanne, Jesus is talking about marriage in this passage and says that there are three reasons why a person might not get married, in spite of the fact that God designed human beings for opposite-sex marriage and expected that most people would indeed get married. The first two reasons Jesus gives are a subset of the reality that some people are either sterile or impotent – some congenitally and some by castration. A third reason a person might not get married is that, for the sake of the Kingdom, they have given up marriage. The passage says nothing of desire or orientation of desire. Most people who lack testes or ovaries do have a low desire because of the endocrine issues involved, but that is not what Jesus is talking about.

    Jesus always speaks of marriage as a matter of a man and a woman, as we see in his citation of Gen 2. And he condemns all forms of sexual activity outside heterosexual marriage when he speaks of “sexual immorality,” that being a phrase which was used at the time to refer to fornication, adultery, and same-sex sexual activity under an “umbrella” term. He never condemns same-sex sexual activity per se, because he has already condemned it in condemning extra-marital sexual activity.

    As for people being “born straight” – of course they are. It is the natural design set up by our Creator. One of the first dicta architectural students learn is “form follows function.” Male and female are designed to interact sexually with one another, and to do so for the natural reason sexual differentiation was created: procreation. Two males cannot interact sexually with each other without using a non-sexual part of their body to do so, and the same is true of women – and neither two men nor two women can procreate by themselves.

    We do not know why those with same-sex attraction have that attraction, but it is most likely a derailing of natural psycho-sexual development. The ex-gay ministries of Exodus, International, have devised programs to help people leave same-sex sexual activity and to moderate or eliminate their same-sex attractions. Such programs are a lot like AA and involve reading, prayer, and reflection. Like AA, not everyone is successful – but many are. I know several such persons myself, and I know of many more.

  • fws

    charlie @ 57

    ” Such programs are a lot like AA and involve reading, prayer, and reflection. Like AA, not everyone is successful – but many are. I know several such persons myself, and I know of many more.”

    “success” here Charlie, would be for a homosexual to become completely heterosexual.

    Are you saying that you actually know of such persons intimately and first hand, as in close friends engaged in your life and yours in theirs, or anecdotally, or third hand you “know ” of such individuals?

    I have never met one of those. I have met bisexuals who’s attraction is pretty much equal for both genders. Those men and women were able to chose between the two attractions.

    Given my understanding that the strength of homosexual tendencies lies along a spectrum (which is, of course debatable), I don’t know of anyone who is on the homosexual end of the spectrum (aversion to a romantic relationship with a female) who has be able to change that in a way that would truly look like I cor 7 purpose for marriage.

    If you actually know of even ONE case of this that could be documented, then this should be shouted from the mountain tops and there should be rigorous studies done that are scientifically impeccable.

    For then there would be a line of homosexuals willing to pay every penny they have to enroll in such a program and be then full of ordinary heterosexual desires.

    I personally dont know of one single person who has truly made this transition. I know of some who have married females. Or females who have married guys. Those who know those couples well , not merely as acquaintances or members of the same church, know also that there remain some rather formidable issues of sexual compatibility and desires within those relationships.

    But all that is sort of besides the point. If homosexuals have to succeed at no longer being homosexuals to enter the Kingdom of God, then we are all lost and going to hell.

  • fws

    charlie @ 57

    ” Such programs are a lot like AA and involve reading, prayer, and reflection. Like AA, not everyone is successful – but many are. I know several such persons myself, and I know of many more.”

    “success” here Charlie, would be for a homosexual to become completely heterosexual.

    Are you saying that you actually know of such persons intimately and first hand, as in close friends engaged in your life and yours in theirs, or anecdotally, or third hand you “know ” of such individuals?

    I have never met one of those. I have met bisexuals who’s attraction is pretty much equal for both genders. Those men and women were able to chose between the two attractions.

    Given my understanding that the strength of homosexual tendencies lies along a spectrum (which is, of course debatable), I don’t know of anyone who is on the homosexual end of the spectrum (aversion to a romantic relationship with a female) who has be able to change that in a way that would truly look like I cor 7 purpose for marriage.

    If you actually know of even ONE case of this that could be documented, then this should be shouted from the mountain tops and there should be rigorous studies done that are scientifically impeccable.

    For then there would be a line of homosexuals willing to pay every penny they have to enroll in such a program and be then full of ordinary heterosexual desires.

    I personally dont know of one single person who has truly made this transition. I know of some who have married females. Or females who have married guys. Those who know those couples well , not merely as acquaintances or members of the same church, know also that there remain some rather formidable issues of sexual compatibility and desires within those relationships.

    But all that is sort of besides the point. If homosexuals have to succeed at no longer being homosexuals to enter the Kingdom of God, then we are all lost and going to hell.

  • Grace

    Charlie @ 57

    Excellent post. You have explained it well.

    Exodus International is a wonderful organization which has helped those WHO WANT HELP, for those who don’t want help, for whatever reasons, it result in their not being helped.

    God is able to deliver anyone from the bondage of sin, but they have to want help. Homosexuality has ruined so many lives, and those who have HIV/AIDS. Those who want to continue homosexual lives, will always plead they can’t be helped…. in essence God Almighty is unable to deliver them, in their eyes.

  • Grace

    Charlie @ 57

    Excellent post. You have explained it well.

    Exodus International is a wonderful organization which has helped those WHO WANT HELP, for those who don’t want help, for whatever reasons, it result in their not being helped.

    God is able to deliver anyone from the bondage of sin, but they have to want help. Homosexuality has ruined so many lives, and those who have HIV/AIDS. Those who want to continue homosexual lives, will always plead they can’t be helped…. in essence God Almighty is unable to deliver them, in their eyes.

  • Charlie

    FWS, I am not sure where to begin in replying – although perhaps the best place is your concluding statement: “If homosexuals have to succeed at no longer being homosexuals to enter the Kingdom of God, then we are all lost and going to hell.”

    You do not understand the Gospel if that is what you think. What the Lord asks of us is repentance for our sins and trust in his death as a sacrifice for all one’s sins – past, present, and future. There is nothing we can do to deserve an eternity of blessedness in his presence; all we can do is receive it as it is offered in Jesus Christ. Those who do rely upon him have changed hearts and are in a lifelong process of growth in faith and obedience, making repentance real in their lives and growing in virtues. It is lifelong and has its twists and turns and even stumbles – but it is a journey with God and one which relies upon his mercy and power.

    Secondly, I did not say that those who changed became completely like an ordinary heterosexual person. For one thing, the ordinary heterosexual person is beset by lusts and temptations, and that is contrary to God’s desires. I have received the newsletter of Regeneration, an Exodus ministry in the Baltimore/No Va area, for years; it was founded by Alan Medinger in the 80′s and has helped hundreds if not thousands of same-sex attracted persons deal with their unwanted attractions. Mr Medinger (himself an “ex-gay” and one of the ones I knew – he died two years ago) says that many of the people they have worked with come to a place where they are attracted to ONE person of the opposite sex, beginning with a friendship that is not a “crush” and growing deeper until marriage is appropriate. Regeneration has ministries to those with same-sex attraction, to spouses of those with same-sex attraction, and to people with some form of sexual addiction, such as pornography. They have a web site which describes their ministry and where some stories are available.

    I do not know any ex-gays so closely that I see them every day or even every week. One of my clergy colleagues in the Anglican Diocese in New England is a man who was very active in same-sex circles in his twenties but successfully dealt with his attraction to men and has since married and has five children. He is the Rev Mario Bergener and he heads Redeemed Lives Ministries, as well as pastoring a church plant. Redeemed Lives also has a web site describing its ministry and with Mario’s testimony.

    I know a few other men and women as well, and through them and the Exodus ministries they are part of, I know of many more.

    You have probably not heard of them and the possibility of change for a number of reasons. One reason is that it is not politically acceptable to say that there are people who have changed. Second, the change is usually slow and undramatic (except to the person changing!) and involves much thought, prayer, self-examination, etc. Furthermore, the change is not one of becoming an ordinary late teens kind of guy, ready to hop into bed with any willing chick – or dreaming of being so.

    There was a researcher (I think his name was Spitzer, but I cannot remember it right now) who was one of the ones spearheading the move to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder – who did a study a few years ago and released his conclusions, which were that a same-sex attracted person who seeks to change his behavior and his desires can do so.

    It does happen. Just like repenting from any other sin, however, it is almost always slow and not very glamorous. Those who change are motivated mostly by wanting to know the Lord and to do his will. Often, they have reached the end of themselves, and having been deeply involved in the sinful actions for some time, now recognize that such actions, while somewhat satisfying at the moment, lead to pain and emptiness. They seek Jesus, and he grants them freedom as they know him better and better.

  • Charlie

    FWS, I am not sure where to begin in replying – although perhaps the best place is your concluding statement: “If homosexuals have to succeed at no longer being homosexuals to enter the Kingdom of God, then we are all lost and going to hell.”

    You do not understand the Gospel if that is what you think. What the Lord asks of us is repentance for our sins and trust in his death as a sacrifice for all one’s sins – past, present, and future. There is nothing we can do to deserve an eternity of blessedness in his presence; all we can do is receive it as it is offered in Jesus Christ. Those who do rely upon him have changed hearts and are in a lifelong process of growth in faith and obedience, making repentance real in their lives and growing in virtues. It is lifelong and has its twists and turns and even stumbles – but it is a journey with God and one which relies upon his mercy and power.

    Secondly, I did not say that those who changed became completely like an ordinary heterosexual person. For one thing, the ordinary heterosexual person is beset by lusts and temptations, and that is contrary to God’s desires. I have received the newsletter of Regeneration, an Exodus ministry in the Baltimore/No Va area, for years; it was founded by Alan Medinger in the 80′s and has helped hundreds if not thousands of same-sex attracted persons deal with their unwanted attractions. Mr Medinger (himself an “ex-gay” and one of the ones I knew – he died two years ago) says that many of the people they have worked with come to a place where they are attracted to ONE person of the opposite sex, beginning with a friendship that is not a “crush” and growing deeper until marriage is appropriate. Regeneration has ministries to those with same-sex attraction, to spouses of those with same-sex attraction, and to people with some form of sexual addiction, such as pornography. They have a web site which describes their ministry and where some stories are available.

    I do not know any ex-gays so closely that I see them every day or even every week. One of my clergy colleagues in the Anglican Diocese in New England is a man who was very active in same-sex circles in his twenties but successfully dealt with his attraction to men and has since married and has five children. He is the Rev Mario Bergener and he heads Redeemed Lives Ministries, as well as pastoring a church plant. Redeemed Lives also has a web site describing its ministry and with Mario’s testimony.

    I know a few other men and women as well, and through them and the Exodus ministries they are part of, I know of many more.

    You have probably not heard of them and the possibility of change for a number of reasons. One reason is that it is not politically acceptable to say that there are people who have changed. Second, the change is usually slow and undramatic (except to the person changing!) and involves much thought, prayer, self-examination, etc. Furthermore, the change is not one of becoming an ordinary late teens kind of guy, ready to hop into bed with any willing chick – or dreaming of being so.

    There was a researcher (I think his name was Spitzer, but I cannot remember it right now) who was one of the ones spearheading the move to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder – who did a study a few years ago and released his conclusions, which were that a same-sex attracted person who seeks to change his behavior and his desires can do so.

    It does happen. Just like repenting from any other sin, however, it is almost always slow and not very glamorous. Those who change are motivated mostly by wanting to know the Lord and to do his will. Often, they have reached the end of themselves, and having been deeply involved in the sinful actions for some time, now recognize that such actions, while somewhat satisfying at the moment, lead to pain and emptiness. They seek Jesus, and he grants them freedom as they know him better and better.

  • A.J.

    May I just say that your words are a load of crap… Where do you go off speaking for God and saying that homosexuality is a sin…. It’s what you think of it as… God loves all people and do you honestly think that God would have let there be homosexuality if he didn’t want it??? I know three sets of twins all of which are identical and they are gay… Then I know two sets of girl siblings who are lesbians… My best friend his parents are pastors and he is gay… I know of two other sets of siblings one older and one younger who are gay … And they’re parents raised them in a healthy religious environment it’s just how they always felt growing up… I’m straight but I support homosexuality 100%…. On Oprah there were seven siblings all who were in there 50s and 5 of them where guys and they were all gay the two girls where straight… Being gay is NOT A CHOICE because believe me there are many gay people that come to me and tell me they wish they were straight they wish they could know what it’s like to be attracted to girls… No one chooses to be gay and your an idiot if you believe they do… Screw what the bible says… I believe in God 100 % but the bible has been rewritten so many times over that the only way we will ever know if it is true is when we face judgement day… And I’ll be laughing my ass off when I and many others prove to wrong…. Just to let you know… It’s a sin to treat Homosexuals like dirty pigs… So get your head out if your ass and start accepting people for who they are… I have one more question… When people like you ask homosexuals why they chose to be GAY… Then my question is “WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO BE STRAIGHT???”

  • A.J.

    May I just say that your words are a load of crap… Where do you go off speaking for God and saying that homosexuality is a sin…. It’s what you think of it as… God loves all people and do you honestly think that God would have let there be homosexuality if he didn’t want it??? I know three sets of twins all of which are identical and they are gay… Then I know two sets of girl siblings who are lesbians… My best friend his parents are pastors and he is gay… I know of two other sets of siblings one older and one younger who are gay … And they’re parents raised them in a healthy religious environment it’s just how they always felt growing up… I’m straight but I support homosexuality 100%…. On Oprah there were seven siblings all who were in there 50s and 5 of them where guys and they were all gay the two girls where straight… Being gay is NOT A CHOICE because believe me there are many gay people that come to me and tell me they wish they were straight they wish they could know what it’s like to be attracted to girls… No one chooses to be gay and your an idiot if you believe they do… Screw what the bible says… I believe in God 100 % but the bible has been rewritten so many times over that the only way we will ever know if it is true is when we face judgement day… And I’ll be laughing my ass off when I and many others prove to wrong…. Just to let you know… It’s a sin to treat Homosexuals like dirty pigs… So get your head out if your ass and start accepting people for who they are… I have one more question… When people like you ask homosexuals why they chose to be GAY… Then my question is “WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO BE STRAIGHT???”

  • A.J.

    Btw I’m sorry if I got Harsh about that I just get really emotional and serious when it comes to stuff like this

  • A.J.

    Btw I’m sorry if I got Harsh about that I just get really emotional and serious when it comes to stuff like this

  • Cincinnatus

    A.J.

    Why would God allow murder/cancer/AIDs/tsunamis/alcoholism/schizophrenia/pedophilia/[fill in the blank with sin or misfortune of your choice] if he didn’t want it, am I right?

  • Cincinnatus

    A.J.

    Why would God allow murder/cancer/AIDs/tsunamis/alcoholism/schizophrenia/pedophilia/[fill in the blank with sin or misfortune of your choice] if he didn’t want it, am I right?

  • Charlie

    AJ – read my comment for a reply to most of what you said.

    I have no idea where you get your idea of who God is and what he wants. If your opinion comes from anything other than Scripture, it is either out of your own thoughts and imagination, or you are knowingly worshiping a divinity other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus believed the Bible to be a sufficient self-revelation of God, and so do I and millions of other people.

    We are designed to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex. An attraction other than that results from some move away from normal psycho-sexual development, for any number of reasons, from obvious ones such as molestation, to far more subtle ones. Nobody chooses who or what they are attracted to but they can choose what to do with their attraction, and they can choose to move closer to “design specs” if they are willing to work (prayerfully) at it.

  • Charlie

    AJ – read my comment for a reply to most of what you said.

    I have no idea where you get your idea of who God is and what he wants. If your opinion comes from anything other than Scripture, it is either out of your own thoughts and imagination, or you are knowingly worshiping a divinity other than the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus believed the Bible to be a sufficient self-revelation of God, and so do I and millions of other people.

    We are designed to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex. An attraction other than that results from some move away from normal psycho-sexual development, for any number of reasons, from obvious ones such as molestation, to far more subtle ones. Nobody chooses who or what they are attracted to but they can choose what to do with their attraction, and they can choose to move closer to “design specs” if they are willing to work (prayerfully) at it.

  • fws

    charlie @ 60

    You say you dont know where to begin. May I suggest that we begin and also end with the Lutheran Confessions because they repeat, faithfully so the argument/directive of st Paul in 1 cor 7?

    I don’t know your religious affiliation other than to assume that you are christian. I am a Lutheran christian, therefore I am bound to accept what the Lutheran Confessions say about the sex drive and demanding that anyone be celebate because they faithfully witness to what st paul says in 1 cor 7. which is this:

    To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife. Also: It is better to marry than to burn. Secondly 5] Christ says, Matt. 19:11: All men cannot receive this saying, where He teaches that not all men are fit to lead a single life; for God created man for procreation, Gen. 1:28. 6] Nor is it in man’s power, without a singular gift and work of God, to alter this creation. [For it is manifest, and many have confessed that no good, honest, chaste life, no Christian, sincere, upright conduct has resulted (from the attempt), but a horrible, fearful unrest and torment of conscience has been felt by many until the end.] Therefore, 7] those who are not fit to lead a single life ought to 8] contract matrimony. For no man’s law, no vow, can annul the commandment and ordinance of God. For these reasons 9] the priests teach that it is lawful for them to marry wives.

    The Confessions appear to be repeating what St Paul says in 1 cor 7.

    They are saying, to put things in modern english, that ALL men have a sex drive (the drive to procreate) that is simply irrisistable in the exact same way that the Law of Gravity is irresistable short of a miracle (“singular work and gift of God” certainly means “miracle” yes?)

    And therefore, they say that to demand celebacy therefore leads to this:

    “For it is manifest, and many have confessed that no good, honest, chaste life, no Christian, sincere, upright conduct has resulted from attempting church mandated celebacy, but a horrible, fearful unrest and torment of conscience has been felt by many until the end. ”

    I anticipate that you will argue that many heterosexuals can will to be celebate and are required to be so, therefore and so homosexuals can also , and must do the same. And I anticipate that you will present anecdotal evidence to support your claim as being true.

    I hope you will agree that you are then clearly disagreeing with the meaning of the text of the Lutheran Confessions that I just presented.

    It is also true that there is NO clear permission in scripture for gays to marry, and it seems clear that they are not suitable for marriage.

    This presents a true dilema I say: Gays, being human, cannot resist the sex drive any more than heterosexuals can, and at the same time there is no permission given to them in Scripture to “”marry “the same gender. And yet they are not suitable to marry the opposite gender.

    I suggest that it would be wrong, and contrary to 1 cor 7 and augustana/apology XXIII to try to resolve this dilema by asserting that celebacy can be chosen based upon anecdotal evidence, and is not a gift that is rare and miraculous, because the confessions and scripture teach something else.

  • fws

    charlie @ 60

    You say you dont know where to begin. May I suggest that we begin and also end with the Lutheran Confessions because they repeat, faithfully so the argument/directive of st Paul in 1 cor 7?

    I don’t know your religious affiliation other than to assume that you are christian. I am a Lutheran christian, therefore I am bound to accept what the Lutheran Confessions say about the sex drive and demanding that anyone be celebate because they faithfully witness to what st paul says in 1 cor 7. which is this:

    To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife. Also: It is better to marry than to burn. Secondly 5] Christ says, Matt. 19:11: All men cannot receive this saying, where He teaches that not all men are fit to lead a single life; for God created man for procreation, Gen. 1:28. 6] Nor is it in man’s power, without a singular gift and work of God, to alter this creation. [For it is manifest, and many have confessed that no good, honest, chaste life, no Christian, sincere, upright conduct has resulted (from the attempt), but a horrible, fearful unrest and torment of conscience has been felt by many until the end.] Therefore, 7] those who are not fit to lead a single life ought to 8] contract matrimony. For no man’s law, no vow, can annul the commandment and ordinance of God. For these reasons 9] the priests teach that it is lawful for them to marry wives.

    The Confessions appear to be repeating what St Paul says in 1 cor 7.

    They are saying, to put things in modern english, that ALL men have a sex drive (the drive to procreate) that is simply irrisistable in the exact same way that the Law of Gravity is irresistable short of a miracle (“singular work and gift of God” certainly means “miracle” yes?)

    And therefore, they say that to demand celebacy therefore leads to this:

    “For it is manifest, and many have confessed that no good, honest, chaste life, no Christian, sincere, upright conduct has resulted from attempting church mandated celebacy, but a horrible, fearful unrest and torment of conscience has been felt by many until the end. ”

    I anticipate that you will argue that many heterosexuals can will to be celebate and are required to be so, therefore and so homosexuals can also , and must do the same. And I anticipate that you will present anecdotal evidence to support your claim as being true.

    I hope you will agree that you are then clearly disagreeing with the meaning of the text of the Lutheran Confessions that I just presented.

    It is also true that there is NO clear permission in scripture for gays to marry, and it seems clear that they are not suitable for marriage.

    This presents a true dilema I say: Gays, being human, cannot resist the sex drive any more than heterosexuals can, and at the same time there is no permission given to them in Scripture to “”marry “the same gender. And yet they are not suitable to marry the opposite gender.

    I suggest that it would be wrong, and contrary to 1 cor 7 and augustana/apology XXIII to try to resolve this dilema by asserting that celebacy can be chosen based upon anecdotal evidence, and is not a gift that is rare and miraculous, because the confessions and scripture teach something else.

  • Grace

    Charlie,

    As for fws comment @ 65 –

    “You say you dont know where to begin. May I suggest that we begin and also end with the Lutheran Confessions”

    fws puts the Lutheran Confessions ahead of the Word of God. He also has stated the following:

    Posted fws @ 37 on February 20, 2012 – –
    On Thoughts on homosexuality not being genetic

    “I do not believe that homosexuality, per se, is a sin.

    http://www.geneveith.com/2012/02/16/thoughts-on-homosexuality-not-being-genetic/#comment-142493

    Of course when he makes this statement, it’s followed by a mirage of excuses, reasons, all trumped up, which are not backed up by Scripture.

  • Grace

    Charlie,

    As for fws comment @ 65 –

    “You say you dont know where to begin. May I suggest that we begin and also end with the Lutheran Confessions”

    fws puts the Lutheran Confessions ahead of the Word of God. He also has stated the following:

    Posted fws @ 37 on February 20, 2012 – –
    On Thoughts on homosexuality not being genetic

    “I do not believe that homosexuality, per se, is a sin.

    http://www.geneveith.com/2012/02/16/thoughts-on-homosexuality-not-being-genetic/#comment-142493

    Of course when he makes this statement, it’s followed by a mirage of excuses, reasons, all trumped up, which are not backed up by Scripture.

  • fws

    Grace. You deliberately snipped off the end of the sentence that you quoted from me. And the end of the sentence would have totally changed the way you used the quote. What you did was shamelessly dishonest and dishonorable.

    Behave yourself and quote me honestly.

    Shame on you Grace.

  • fws

    Grace. You deliberately snipped off the end of the sentence that you quoted from me. And the end of the sentence would have totally changed the way you used the quote. What you did was shamelessly dishonest and dishonorable.

    Behave yourself and quote me honestly.

    Shame on you Grace.

  • Grace

    fws,

    NOTHING changes the FACT that you have taken Romans 1, twisted it around to make homosexuality not a sin. It’s shameful and DISHONEST that you continue to tout it as fact, when it is false.

    ““I do not believe that homosexuality, per se, is a sin.”

  • Grace

    fws,

    NOTHING changes the FACT that you have taken Romans 1, twisted it around to make homosexuality not a sin. It’s shameful and DISHONEST that you continue to tout it as fact, when it is false.

    ““I do not believe that homosexuality, per se, is a sin.”

  • fws

    grace there is not even tiny droplet of evidence anywhere ever in any post of yours here where you show even the slightest bit of personal repentance or regret or even recognition of where you are specifically wrong and sinful.

    The same is not true for me.

    Repent of your sins Grace.

  • fws

    grace there is not even tiny droplet of evidence anywhere ever in any post of yours here where you show even the slightest bit of personal repentance or regret or even recognition of where you are specifically wrong and sinful.

    The same is not true for me.

    Repent of your sins Grace.

  • Charlie

    FWS, I am an Anglican who was once a Presbyterian, and what I know of Lutheranism and its confessions is very little, other than the ELCA is headed in the same direction as the Episcopal Church (that is, into theological chaos), and that Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans believe the Bible to be the revealed Word of God.

    Scripture forbids sexual relations outside heterosexual marriage, and thus all men and women who are not married are required to abstain from sexual relations. I am not saying that this is an easy requirement to follow, but it is still God’s governing word on the matter.

    Of those who are not married, some have a special calling and gift to remain single all their lives, so that they may be available to the Lord in a way that married people are not. Even though these people have a special gift of lifelong celibacy, their sexual drives are still present and must be dealt with in a healthy way.

    Other single people still have a command to be chaste – and they will have a gift of celibacy as well, albeit a temporary one. No spiritual gift is activated purely and completely without any effort on the part of the one so gifted. Intention and effort are always required for a gift to be put to use.

    Furthermore, we Christians are called to community, so that we may have support and assistance from one another. Those who are single, either because the Lord has not yet sent a suitable spouse or because they have an attraction to members of their own sex, are to avail themselves of the blessings not only of the Holy Spirit’s power but also of the resources they have in the larger Church.

    Regeneration, Redeemed Lives, and other Exodus ministries have programs, prayer partners, small groups, literature, and a host of other resources that those who struggle with sexual temptation can use to help them remain chaste.

    God is a God of miracles, but he also uses means – and he does not expect Christians to deal with their own sinful desires ( of whatever kind, sexual or otherwise) completely on their own. We have to be willing to ask for help, to be part of a group for support and prayer, and to use other means as we seek to deal with our besetting sins.

    I am not saying celibacy is easy. I am saying it is possible – if a person does not try to be a “Lone Ranger” in the process.

  • Charlie

    FWS, I am an Anglican who was once a Presbyterian, and what I know of Lutheranism and its confessions is very little, other than the ELCA is headed in the same direction as the Episcopal Church (that is, into theological chaos), and that Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans believe the Bible to be the revealed Word of God.

    Scripture forbids sexual relations outside heterosexual marriage, and thus all men and women who are not married are required to abstain from sexual relations. I am not saying that this is an easy requirement to follow, but it is still God’s governing word on the matter.

    Of those who are not married, some have a special calling and gift to remain single all their lives, so that they may be available to the Lord in a way that married people are not. Even though these people have a special gift of lifelong celibacy, their sexual drives are still present and must be dealt with in a healthy way.

    Other single people still have a command to be chaste – and they will have a gift of celibacy as well, albeit a temporary one. No spiritual gift is activated purely and completely without any effort on the part of the one so gifted. Intention and effort are always required for a gift to be put to use.

    Furthermore, we Christians are called to community, so that we may have support and assistance from one another. Those who are single, either because the Lord has not yet sent a suitable spouse or because they have an attraction to members of their own sex, are to avail themselves of the blessings not only of the Holy Spirit’s power but also of the resources they have in the larger Church.

    Regeneration, Redeemed Lives, and other Exodus ministries have programs, prayer partners, small groups, literature, and a host of other resources that those who struggle with sexual temptation can use to help them remain chaste.

    God is a God of miracles, but he also uses means – and he does not expect Christians to deal with their own sinful desires ( of whatever kind, sexual or otherwise) completely on their own. We have to be willing to ask for help, to be part of a group for support and prayer, and to use other means as we seek to deal with our besetting sins.

    I am not saying celibacy is easy. I am saying it is possible – if a person does not try to be a “Lone Ranger” in the process.

  • fws

    charlie @ 70

    “I am not saying celibacy is easy. I am saying it is possible – if a person does not try to be a “Lone Ranger” in the process.”

    Ok Charlie. I respectful disagree. My basis for disagreement is 1 cor 7. There st paul says that celebacy is a singular gift and work of God. St Paul says that marriage, short of such a miraculous gift is the ONLY way to channel the sex drive.

    His comment that , even in marriage, to refrain from sex for more than the briefest of time and then only by mutual consent is to open a path to temptation, has clear implications on this as well.

    Paul is clearly saying that ordinarily, short of a the miraculous gift of celebacy, the ONLY way to channel (not even control) the sex drive is marriage.

    The Lutheran Confessions merely repeat this.

    In contrast your view is based upon purely anecdotal evidence. And it is directly contrary to what St Paul asserts in 1 cor 7 I would suggest.

    I am interested to hear how and why you feel that 1 cor 7 does not need to be read in this way.

    This means that it is not achievable through some 12-step group accountability program clone like those organizations you mention.

  • fws

    charlie @ 70

    “I am not saying celibacy is easy. I am saying it is possible – if a person does not try to be a “Lone Ranger” in the process.”

    Ok Charlie. I respectful disagree. My basis for disagreement is 1 cor 7. There st paul says that celebacy is a singular gift and work of God. St Paul says that marriage, short of such a miraculous gift is the ONLY way to channel the sex drive.

    His comment that , even in marriage, to refrain from sex for more than the briefest of time and then only by mutual consent is to open a path to temptation, has clear implications on this as well.

    Paul is clearly saying that ordinarily, short of a the miraculous gift of celebacy, the ONLY way to channel (not even control) the sex drive is marriage.

    The Lutheran Confessions merely repeat this.

    In contrast your view is based upon purely anecdotal evidence. And it is directly contrary to what St Paul asserts in 1 cor 7 I would suggest.

    I am interested to hear how and why you feel that 1 cor 7 does not need to be read in this way.

    This means that it is not achievable through some 12-step group accountability program clone like those organizations you mention.

  • Charlie

    AJ, your examples were probably moving to watch as they were presented on TV, but they have no scientific import. Siblings, be they single birth siblings, or fraternal or identical twins, share not only a common genetic inheritance (an identical one in the case of identical twins), but they share the same environment as they grow up. It is impossible to distinguish between “nature” and “nurture” if the siblings are not raised in separate homes.

    There have been a few studies of identical twins who were separated very early in life and raised apart. If genetics were 100% responsible for sexual orientation, then separated twin studies would show an 100% result: if one twin is same-sex attracted, so is the other, if one is opposite-sex attracted, so is the other. However, the separated twins studies show that the correlation is less than 50%; I think it may be about 30%. Therefore, something other than only genetics determining the object of attraction is at work.

    Alan Medinger, founder of Regeneration, believes, (and cited some studies before he died of cancer a few years ago) that both a genetic predisposition and a certain range of family situations/dynamics are at work. On the whole, it seems that an emotionally or physically absent father is the major source of misplaced attractions, although molestation may also be a factor in some cases.

    Calling my argument names is not a refutation of the argument. Show me where the incorrect facts are, or the misplaced errors in argumentation. Then we can talk sense to one another.

  • Charlie

    AJ, your examples were probably moving to watch as they were presented on TV, but they have no scientific import. Siblings, be they single birth siblings, or fraternal or identical twins, share not only a common genetic inheritance (an identical one in the case of identical twins), but they share the same environment as they grow up. It is impossible to distinguish between “nature” and “nurture” if the siblings are not raised in separate homes.

    There have been a few studies of identical twins who were separated very early in life and raised apart. If genetics were 100% responsible for sexual orientation, then separated twin studies would show an 100% result: if one twin is same-sex attracted, so is the other, if one is opposite-sex attracted, so is the other. However, the separated twins studies show that the correlation is less than 50%; I think it may be about 30%. Therefore, something other than only genetics determining the object of attraction is at work.

    Alan Medinger, founder of Regeneration, believes, (and cited some studies before he died of cancer a few years ago) that both a genetic predisposition and a certain range of family situations/dynamics are at work. On the whole, it seems that an emotionally or physically absent father is the major source of misplaced attractions, although molestation may also be a factor in some cases.

    Calling my argument names is not a refutation of the argument. Show me where the incorrect facts are, or the misplaced errors in argumentation. Then we can talk sense to one another.

  • fws

    charlie, single persons are commanded , by God, through St Paul , to get married if they find that they cannot keep it in their pants.

    To seek a miraculous solution when God has provided an ordinary one called marriage , Lutherans say, in the Confessions is sinful and idolatrous.

    Why would you feel the need to disagree with this assertion?

  • fws

    charlie, single persons are commanded , by God, through St Paul , to get married if they find that they cannot keep it in their pants.

    To seek a miraculous solution when God has provided an ordinary one called marriage , Lutherans say, in the Confessions is sinful and idolatrous.

    Why would you feel the need to disagree with this assertion?

  • Charlie

    FWS – the support groups, spiritual disciplines, etc, I spoke of are means by which the gift of celibacy is exercised and has its strength in the life of the person who is not married. I do not know why you think that celibacy is a gift that falls out of the sky upon some unmarried person and operates spontaneously and perfectly from that moment on. Scripture does not state that it does; it simply states that it is a gift.

    I do not know any spiritual gift – even that of tongues – that operates without thought, intention, prayer, etc. If the Lutheran Confessions say that celibacy is something that not only makes chastity possible, but easy, then I suggest that the Lutheran Confessions have misinterpreted St Paul.

    I suspect that what the Confessions speak of is more a product of the Roman requirement of celibacy for all clergy – which is NOT biblical – resulting in so many obvious failures than it is a product of what the Scriptures say about celibacy.

    We are all called to grow in faithfulness and to repent of our sins and grow in Christlikeness. It is not a simple or easy thing to do. We are called to take up our cross (our self-will, our selfishness, our desire to tell God what to do and how he must do it, etc) and to deny our independent wills, and follow Jesus. It is a daily process, and (to quote Eugene Petersen) “a long obedience in the same direction.”

    Contentment is just as hard to maintain as chastity – but both are required of us by the Lord, as are other qualities of life, character, and action.

  • Charlie

    FWS – the support groups, spiritual disciplines, etc, I spoke of are means by which the gift of celibacy is exercised and has its strength in the life of the person who is not married. I do not know why you think that celibacy is a gift that falls out of the sky upon some unmarried person and operates spontaneously and perfectly from that moment on. Scripture does not state that it does; it simply states that it is a gift.

    I do not know any spiritual gift – even that of tongues – that operates without thought, intention, prayer, etc. If the Lutheran Confessions say that celibacy is something that not only makes chastity possible, but easy, then I suggest that the Lutheran Confessions have misinterpreted St Paul.

    I suspect that what the Confessions speak of is more a product of the Roman requirement of celibacy for all clergy – which is NOT biblical – resulting in so many obvious failures than it is a product of what the Scriptures say about celibacy.

    We are all called to grow in faithfulness and to repent of our sins and grow in Christlikeness. It is not a simple or easy thing to do. We are called to take up our cross (our self-will, our selfishness, our desire to tell God what to do and how he must do it, etc) and to deny our independent wills, and follow Jesus. It is a daily process, and (to quote Eugene Petersen) “a long obedience in the same direction.”

    Contentment is just as hard to maintain as chastity – but both are required of us by the Lord, as are other qualities of life, character, and action.

  • Charlie

    And now goodnight.

  • Charlie

    And now goodnight.

  • fws

    charlie @ 70

    ” Even though these people have a special gift of lifelong celibacy, their sexual drives are still present and must be dealt with in a healthy way.”

    You seem to have a “roll-your-own” definition of the word “celebacy” that seems quite different than what the context of 1 cor 7 suggests. What is your biblical basis for this definition please? St Paul seems to be saying in 1 cor 7 that celebacy is a gift . to say that gifts need to be worked at as in “he is a gifted artist” does seem to be ameaning-shift from the way St Paul uses the word “gift”.

    “gift” is in the context of “it is better to marry than to burn”. Those who do not “burn” have no need to marry. They have the gift of celebacy.

    Those who find that they do “burn” with sexual desire, St Paul commands to get married, not “try harder” or “become accountable to a group” or “seek out help from the faith community”. Marry he says.

    Futher, st paul says that only each individual can determine, for himself whether or not he or she has the gift of celebacy. Therefore he rules out that we ever are to demand mandatory celebacy from anyone.

    St Paul presents only a binary choice: you can keep it in your pants without burning with desire to do to otherwise, or…. you are commanded to get married .

    What is it that I am missing in the text? or is there some other scriptural text you are thinking of that you wish to refer me to? Matt 19:11?

    the force of st Paul is not “gift” as in gifted musician. The force is “gift” as in miraculous and singular work and gift of God. It is God’s work not something we can effort at 1 cor 7 says.

    Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”

    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

    This is a commandment isnt it?

    … Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time,… but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

    “self-control” we are told to maintain how? a) get married b) have non-stop sex within that marriage.

    Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am [ie celibate]

    Paul is saying it is unscriptural to demand/command celibacy!

    But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another….if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry.

    Where is it saying that this is supposed to look like the church setting up 12 step type accountability groups etc. ? He does not say, “try to exercise SELF-control, and if you fail at this, try being accountable to a 12 step type group. Where is there anything here about “compulsive behavioral disorder” or such. That is out of character with this text.

    For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

    Marry or burn with passion. Those are the only two things St Paul identifies as the binary choices that are contrasted with the word “gift.” Your use of the word “gift” is in the sense of “he has a gift for (fill in the blank)”. I respectfully suggest that your usage/meaning of that word “gift” guts the meaning, thrust and force of the text.

    or matt 19:11…

    And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
    The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

    But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.

    You are saying that “No spiritual gift is activated purely and completely without any effort on the part of the one so gifted. Intention and effort are always required for a gift to be put to use.” I am not seeing this rule of yours in 1 cor 7 or this text. Where will I find this rule in scripture charlie?

    If continence were possible to all, it would not require a peculiar gift. But Christ shows that it has need of a peculiar gift; therefore it does not belong to all. God wishes the rest to use the common law of nature which He has instituted. For God does not wish His ordinances, His creations to be despised. He wishes men to be chaste in this way, that they use the remedy divinely presented, in the same way as He wishes to nourish our life by using the normal means of food and drink.

    For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

    This needs to be read and interpreted by the words of St Paul. Doesnt Paul here command those who have not the gift of continence to marry? For he interprets himself a little after when he says, 7:9: It is better to marry than to burn.

    And Christ has clearly said, Matt. 19:11: All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. Paul accordingly speaks of marriage as a remedy, and on account of these flames of the sex drive that are driven by sinful desires, commands to marry.

    Neither can any human 12-step type accountability group, or , any law, any vows , or church requirement, remove this declaration:

    “It is better to marry than to burn”

    why not?

    because those other remedies do not remove either the sex drive or the sinful desires that inflames it.

    Therefore all who burn, there is the commandment to marry.

    By this commandment of Paul: To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, all are held bound who do not truly keep themselves continent;

    and this decision st Paul places with the conscience of each one, and not some dictate of the church.

  • fws

    charlie @ 70

    ” Even though these people have a special gift of lifelong celibacy, their sexual drives are still present and must be dealt with in a healthy way.”

    You seem to have a “roll-your-own” definition of the word “celebacy” that seems quite different than what the context of 1 cor 7 suggests. What is your biblical basis for this definition please? St Paul seems to be saying in 1 cor 7 that celebacy is a gift . to say that gifts need to be worked at as in “he is a gifted artist” does seem to be ameaning-shift from the way St Paul uses the word “gift”.

    “gift” is in the context of “it is better to marry than to burn”. Those who do not “burn” have no need to marry. They have the gift of celebacy.

    Those who find that they do “burn” with sexual desire, St Paul commands to get married, not “try harder” or “become accountable to a group” or “seek out help from the faith community”. Marry he says.

    Futher, st paul says that only each individual can determine, for himself whether or not he or she has the gift of celebacy. Therefore he rules out that we ever are to demand mandatory celebacy from anyone.

    St Paul presents only a binary choice: you can keep it in your pants without burning with desire to do to otherwise, or…. you are commanded to get married .

    What is it that I am missing in the text? or is there some other scriptural text you are thinking of that you wish to refer me to? Matt 19:11?

    the force of st Paul is not “gift” as in gifted musician. The force is “gift” as in miraculous and singular work and gift of God. It is God’s work not something we can effort at 1 cor 7 says.

    Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.”

    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

    This is a commandment isnt it?

    … Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time,… but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

    “self-control” we are told to maintain how? a) get married b) have non-stop sex within that marriage.

    Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I myself am [ie celibate]

    Paul is saying it is unscriptural to demand/command celibacy!

    But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another….if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry.

    Where is it saying that this is supposed to look like the church setting up 12 step type accountability groups etc. ? He does not say, “try to exercise SELF-control, and if you fail at this, try being accountable to a 12 step type group. Where is there anything here about “compulsive behavioral disorder” or such. That is out of character with this text.

    For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

    Marry or burn with passion. Those are the only two things St Paul identifies as the binary choices that are contrasted with the word “gift.” Your use of the word “gift” is in the sense of “he has a gift for (fill in the blank)”. I respectfully suggest that your usage/meaning of that word “gift” guts the meaning, thrust and force of the text.

    or matt 19:11…

    And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
    The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

    But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.

    You are saying that “No spiritual gift is activated purely and completely without any effort on the part of the one so gifted. Intention and effort are always required for a gift to be put to use.” I am not seeing this rule of yours in 1 cor 7 or this text. Where will I find this rule in scripture charlie?

    If continence were possible to all, it would not require a peculiar gift. But Christ shows that it has need of a peculiar gift; therefore it does not belong to all. God wishes the rest to use the common law of nature which He has instituted. For God does not wish His ordinances, His creations to be despised. He wishes men to be chaste in this way, that they use the remedy divinely presented, in the same way as He wishes to nourish our life by using the normal means of food and drink.

    For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

    This needs to be read and interpreted by the words of St Paul. Doesnt Paul here command those who have not the gift of continence to marry? For he interprets himself a little after when he says, 7:9: It is better to marry than to burn.

    And Christ has clearly said, Matt. 19:11: All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. Paul accordingly speaks of marriage as a remedy, and on account of these flames of the sex drive that are driven by sinful desires, commands to marry.

    Neither can any human 12-step type accountability group, or , any law, any vows , or church requirement, remove this declaration:

    “It is better to marry than to burn”

    why not?

    because those other remedies do not remove either the sex drive or the sinful desires that inflames it.

    Therefore all who burn, there is the commandment to marry.

    By this commandment of Paul: To avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, all are held bound who do not truly keep themselves continent;

    and this decision st Paul places with the conscience of each one, and not some dictate of the church.

  • Charlie

    DWS, I can tell that nothing short of complete capitulation to your point of view will do. I think (although not knowing you personally) that your mind is made up and you are as much likely to be justifying a particular course of action for yourself as stating a general policy that should apply to all. I do not know this for sure, of course; I simply suspect it may be the case.

    At any rate, further discussion would be a waste of electrons and time. I have no interest in endless nitpicking.

    Farewell, and God bless.

  • Charlie

    DWS, I can tell that nothing short of complete capitulation to your point of view will do. I think (although not knowing you personally) that your mind is made up and you are as much likely to be justifying a particular course of action for yourself as stating a general policy that should apply to all. I do not know this for sure, of course; I simply suspect it may be the case.

    At any rate, further discussion would be a waste of electrons and time. I have no interest in endless nitpicking.

    Farewell, and God bless.

  • fws

    charlie @ 77

    So when you do apologetics with a buddhist or jehovahs witness or muslim or mormon you throw up your hands, throw in the towel and always end dialog on this note? I bet you dont!

    But when talking to a fellow baptized believer on THIS one topic, you refuse to discuss things in as you would when you do apologetics with an unbeliever. why is that Charlie?

  • fws

    charlie @ 77

    So when you do apologetics with a buddhist or jehovahs witness or muslim or mormon you throw up your hands, throw in the towel and always end dialog on this note? I bet you dont!

    But when talking to a fellow baptized believer on THIS one topic, you refuse to discuss things in as you would when you do apologetics with an unbeliever. why is that Charlie?

  • fws

    I would point out that I am pointing to 1 cor 7 and matt 19. and I am secondarily pointing to the Lutheran Confessions that unpack what the practical significance of those passages is as to human sexuality, and not just gay sexuality.

    You, in contrast, point to anecdotal evidence of exodus and “gays I know”. might I suggest that relying on anecdotal evidence rather than making your reason captive to the Word of God here is what you share in common with unbelieving gay men and women?

    Good luck with that approach charlie!

  • fws

    I would point out that I am pointing to 1 cor 7 and matt 19. and I am secondarily pointing to the Lutheran Confessions that unpack what the practical significance of those passages is as to human sexuality, and not just gay sexuality.

    You, in contrast, point to anecdotal evidence of exodus and “gays I know”. might I suggest that relying on anecdotal evidence rather than making your reason captive to the Word of God here is what you share in common with unbelieving gay men and women?

    Good luck with that approach charlie!

  • fws

    Charlie:

    My approach is very simple:

    it is to start with the facts as scripture lays them out, and then overlay those facts upon any and all experiential and evidential “facts” I think I “know”.

    And what are those facts of scripture:

    1) celebacy is not available to ALL, and ordinarily is possible only as a miraculous gift. miraculous as in “walking on water” and not as in the metaphoric “child birth is a miracle!” Matt 19. 1 cor 17

    2) St Paul in 1 cor 7 says that the ONLY biblically available thing that can be biblically called “sexual self control” looks , alone, like this:

    get married, and WHENEVER either spouse feels the urge for sex, never ever, ever deny that other spouse, except by mutual consent and only even then, for the very briefest of times.

    I agree that that does not look like anything I would ordinarily label as “self-control”

    Further, trying harder, 12 step group accountability , cold showers,vows of chastity, masturbation, and attempts at celebacy by will power in the absence of the miraculous gift of celebacy are all doomed to failure according to 1 cor 7 since marriage is the ONLY remedy offering “sexual self control” that is offered anywhere in scripture. Period.

    Those are indisputably two things that scripture says about sex and self control. We need to start there then in addressing the issue of homosexual sexual self control. I am willing to change my views charlie, but you will need to convince me from scripture and not reasonable arguments, science or anecdotal evidence. Ok?

  • fws

    Charlie:

    My approach is very simple:

    it is to start with the facts as scripture lays them out, and then overlay those facts upon any and all experiential and evidential “facts” I think I “know”.

    And what are those facts of scripture:

    1) celebacy is not available to ALL, and ordinarily is possible only as a miraculous gift. miraculous as in “walking on water” and not as in the metaphoric “child birth is a miracle!” Matt 19. 1 cor 17

    2) St Paul in 1 cor 7 says that the ONLY biblically available thing that can be biblically called “sexual self control” looks , alone, like this:

    get married, and WHENEVER either spouse feels the urge for sex, never ever, ever deny that other spouse, except by mutual consent and only even then, for the very briefest of times.

    I agree that that does not look like anything I would ordinarily label as “self-control”

    Further, trying harder, 12 step group accountability , cold showers,vows of chastity, masturbation, and attempts at celebacy by will power in the absence of the miraculous gift of celebacy are all doomed to failure according to 1 cor 7 since marriage is the ONLY remedy offering “sexual self control” that is offered anywhere in scripture. Period.

    Those are indisputably two things that scripture says about sex and self control. We need to start there then in addressing the issue of homosexual sexual self control. I am willing to change my views charlie, but you will need to convince me from scripture and not reasonable arguments, science or anecdotal evidence. Ok?

  • Grace

    The vast majority of homosexuals find it impossible to follow Christ regarding homosexuality. The fact that Paul says plainly that through this sin they will be given over to a “reprobate mind” Romans 1:28.

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Hebrews 10

    Here are the excuses.

    1. I was born a homosexual.
    2. There is no cure, because this is who I am
    3. Nothing will work, even God can’t change my heart
    4. Homosexuality is not a sin
    5. I knew I was attracted to the same sex since I was a toddler.
    6. All those who propose counselling are told it is a fraud, no one changes from a homosexual to a straight.

    The point being, homosexuals want to be, for the most part homosexuals. They like the interplay between those who are hetrosexual and their feeble arguments, it gives them something to do with the extra time they have. Most of all they love the ATTENTION.

  • Grace

    The vast majority of homosexuals find it impossible to follow Christ regarding homosexuality. The fact that Paul says plainly that through this sin they will be given over to a “reprobate mind” Romans 1:28.

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Hebrews 10

    Here are the excuses.

    1. I was born a homosexual.
    2. There is no cure, because this is who I am
    3. Nothing will work, even God can’t change my heart
    4. Homosexuality is not a sin
    5. I knew I was attracted to the same sex since I was a toddler.
    6. All those who propose counselling are told it is a fraud, no one changes from a homosexual to a straight.

    The point being, homosexuals want to be, for the most part homosexuals. They like the interplay between those who are hetrosexual and their feeble arguments, it gives them something to do with the extra time they have. Most of all they love the ATTENTION.

  • fws

    Ok grace. where is it, in my current line of argumentation, that I am presenting or arguing any one of the 6 “excuses” you present.

    Why not try to address the argument I am advancing from scripture , rather than arguments that I have discarded as not being provable from scripture.

    why not? you would not begin to know how to address my arguments in 80. you only know how to cut and paste the arguments you find by googling matthew henry and others. Prove me wrong and address what I present in post 80 and h0w you find it to be contrary to scripture or somehow incomplete.

  • fws

    Ok grace. where is it, in my current line of argumentation, that I am presenting or arguing any one of the 6 “excuses” you present.

    Why not try to address the argument I am advancing from scripture , rather than arguments that I have discarded as not being provable from scripture.

    why not? you would not begin to know how to address my arguments in 80. you only know how to cut and paste the arguments you find by googling matthew henry and others. Prove me wrong and address what I present in post 80 and h0w you find it to be contrary to scripture or somehow incomplete.

  • fws

    Ok grace. where is it, in my current line of argumentation, that I am presenting or arguing any one of the 6 “excuses” you present.

    Why not try to address the argument I am advancing from scripture , rather than arguments that I have discarded as not being provable or disprovable from scripture.

    why not? you would not begin to know how to address my arguments in 80. you only know how to cut and paste the arguments you find by googling matthew henry and others. Prove me wrong and address what I present in post 80 and h0w you find it to be contrary to scripture or somehow incomplete.

  • fws

    Ok grace. where is it, in my current line of argumentation, that I am presenting or arguing any one of the 6 “excuses” you present.

    Why not try to address the argument I am advancing from scripture , rather than arguments that I have discarded as not being provable or disprovable from scripture.

    why not? you would not begin to know how to address my arguments in 80. you only know how to cut and paste the arguments you find by googling matthew henry and others. Prove me wrong and address what I present in post 80 and h0w you find it to be contrary to scripture or somehow incomplete.

  • Grace

    fws,

    Not doing a copy paste from Matthew Henry –

    I don’t need to know how to address your agruments, you don’t have one that aligns with Scripture, that’s the whole POINT, that’s the one you can’t see.

  • Grace

    fws,

    Not doing a copy paste from Matthew Henry –

    I don’t need to know how to address your agruments, you don’t have one that aligns with Scripture, that’s the whole POINT, that’s the one you can’t see.

  • Charlie

    OK, FWS, I’ll tell you why I have given up talking with you. I have engaged in discussion with people on many topics at many times, sometimes face-to-face, sometimes on line, and I have learned a few things in the process. I have learned the difference between honest seekers and those who dispute about the meanings of words and who will never be satisfied. You fall among the latter.

    You ask me if I know anyone who has ever “re-oriented” their sexual attraction. I tell you that I do, and that there are scientific studies that document that such a change is possible. (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/NarthAPA.php for one; there are others.) You later switch and say I am giving “anecdotal evidence” although your original question was if I knew anyone who had changed. I can’t win (although by linking to a study, I suppose I am still trying to…)

    You insist that God can only give the gift of celibacy (note the “i” by the way; that is the standard spelling) in a certain way, by direct and total gift, and refuse to admit that anything else is a solution to the problem of lust. In the Gospels, the Lord Jesus heals people in a wide variety of ways, some of them taking time – and even the same condition is not always dealt with in the same way. Your insistence on just one thing being of God reminds me of those in Jesus’ day who believed that the Messiah would only be known to be the Messiah if he led a successful political revolt against Rome. They thought Jesus might be the Messiah, even to giving him great support when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. But we know what happened when he did not fulfill the prophecies they were expecting to be fulfilled in the way that they expected – or more exactly, demanded – God to fulfill them.

    Alan Medinger has stated that he was relieved of the desire to act on his same-sex attraction all at once. He was married, so he did not give up sex; he simply stopped sneaking out of the house to cruise gay bars after becoming a Christian in more than name. That was miraculous – but he also lost even the desire for sex with other men over a period of years. Mario Bergener’s change was different. The testimonies of these two men are available at their ministries’ respective web sites.

    God deals with different people in different ways. If you insist otherwise, take it up with God.

    Furthermore, same-sex attraction is a disordered desire, resulting from a warping of normal psycho-sexual development. Even opposite-sex sexual desire is touched by sin and corroded – but opposite sex desire is what we human beings were designed to have, and it develops in a pattern. Same-sex attraction comes by a derailing of that normal process – and thus when God deals with it, he has to deal with a variety of causes and to heal a variety of injuries and correct a number of misperceptions, lies to self, and other matters at an emotional level.

    Sanctification (one of the areas I have specialized in during my thirty years as a pastor) is process that is not completed until one enters the presence of God. During life, it has times of vast change, times of slow change, times of intense struggle, times of relative ease, and even times of failure in an area. God deals with each person in the way that person needs, for while all of us are sinners, none of us deals with the same pattern of preferred sins as another. Some sinful patterns are more deep-seated than others, some are more obvious to other people than other sins/sinful patterns, and some sins are more painful to the sinner than others.

    We each have our own story to tell – but we who trust Jesus for mercy are all forgiven by his mercy alone, and he changes our hearts, each in the way he chooses and in the timing that he chooses, to his glory and our good.

    You can insist he change you in the way you want, and in the time you want, if you wish. But while it is possible he will do exactly what you ask, more than likely, he is telling you to leave how and when to him, and he wants most of all to have your heart completely surrendered to his loving care.

  • Charlie

    OK, FWS, I’ll tell you why I have given up talking with you. I have engaged in discussion with people on many topics at many times, sometimes face-to-face, sometimes on line, and I have learned a few things in the process. I have learned the difference between honest seekers and those who dispute about the meanings of words and who will never be satisfied. You fall among the latter.

    You ask me if I know anyone who has ever “re-oriented” their sexual attraction. I tell you that I do, and that there are scientific studies that document that such a change is possible. (http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/NarthAPA.php for one; there are others.) You later switch and say I am giving “anecdotal evidence” although your original question was if I knew anyone who had changed. I can’t win (although by linking to a study, I suppose I am still trying to…)

    You insist that God can only give the gift of celibacy (note the “i” by the way; that is the standard spelling) in a certain way, by direct and total gift, and refuse to admit that anything else is a solution to the problem of lust. In the Gospels, the Lord Jesus heals people in a wide variety of ways, some of them taking time – and even the same condition is not always dealt with in the same way. Your insistence on just one thing being of God reminds me of those in Jesus’ day who believed that the Messiah would only be known to be the Messiah if he led a successful political revolt against Rome. They thought Jesus might be the Messiah, even to giving him great support when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. But we know what happened when he did not fulfill the prophecies they were expecting to be fulfilled in the way that they expected – or more exactly, demanded – God to fulfill them.

    Alan Medinger has stated that he was relieved of the desire to act on his same-sex attraction all at once. He was married, so he did not give up sex; he simply stopped sneaking out of the house to cruise gay bars after becoming a Christian in more than name. That was miraculous – but he also lost even the desire for sex with other men over a period of years. Mario Bergener’s change was different. The testimonies of these two men are available at their ministries’ respective web sites.

    God deals with different people in different ways. If you insist otherwise, take it up with God.

    Furthermore, same-sex attraction is a disordered desire, resulting from a warping of normal psycho-sexual development. Even opposite-sex sexual desire is touched by sin and corroded – but opposite sex desire is what we human beings were designed to have, and it develops in a pattern. Same-sex attraction comes by a derailing of that normal process – and thus when God deals with it, he has to deal with a variety of causes and to heal a variety of injuries and correct a number of misperceptions, lies to self, and other matters at an emotional level.

    Sanctification (one of the areas I have specialized in during my thirty years as a pastor) is process that is not completed until one enters the presence of God. During life, it has times of vast change, times of slow change, times of intense struggle, times of relative ease, and even times of failure in an area. God deals with each person in the way that person needs, for while all of us are sinners, none of us deals with the same pattern of preferred sins as another. Some sinful patterns are more deep-seated than others, some are more obvious to other people than other sins/sinful patterns, and some sins are more painful to the sinner than others.

    We each have our own story to tell – but we who trust Jesus for mercy are all forgiven by his mercy alone, and he changes our hearts, each in the way he chooses and in the timing that he chooses, to his glory and our good.

    You can insist he change you in the way you want, and in the time you want, if you wish. But while it is possible he will do exactly what you ask, more than likely, he is telling you to leave how and when to him, and he wants most of all to have your heart completely surrendered to his loving care.

  • fws

    Of course you are being dishonest Charlie.

    How do I know that? I went to Throckmorton’s own site. There I discovered that he criticises NARTH constantly and says they misuse his work!

    And is your mind made up? Yes. Will you believe what he says? no. Will you continue as you are doing now? yes.

    The following articles and links are by using the custom google search field in Dr Throckmorton’s own site. Go see for your own self. But will any of this change your views? Of COURSE not!

    NARTH issues statement on sexual orientation change

    Jan 29, 2012 … I think NARTH misunderstand the objections to repairitive therapy by focusing only on one aspect of criticism. While repairitive therapy’s efficacy …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-issues-statement-on-sexual-orientation-change/

    NARTH is not primarily composed of mental health professionals

    Oct 24, 2011 … The influence of NARTH comes from the fact that religiously conservative groups like FRC recommend the organization and refer to it as a …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-is-not-primarily-composed-of-mental-health- professionals/

    Thoughts on NARTH’s statement on sexual orientation change

    Jan 30, 2012 … I am surprised that NARTH complains about religiously mediated change when they highlight such change on the organization website.

    wthrockmorton.com/…/thoughts-on-narths-statement-on-sexual-orientation- change/

    NARTH Report: Suicide attempts increase during sexual orientation …

    Sep 26, 2011 … Writing in the second edition of NARTH’s (National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) Journal of Human Sexuality, …

    wThrockmorton.com/…/narth-report-suicide-attempts-increase-during-sexual- orientation-change-therapy/

    nARTH Founder Retracts Claim of Sexual Reorientation via Lexapro

    Dec 1, 2011 … While examining NARTH’s 2009 review of past studies on homosexuality ( Journal of Human Sexuality, Vol.1 – click the link for the entire issue), …
    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-founder-retracts-claim-of-sexual-reorientation- via-lexapro/

    NARTH features leader of international efforts to keep …

    Oct 31, 2011 … In this context, it is striking that NARTH has refused to declare opposition to criminalization of homosexuality. In December, 2009, I asked …
    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-features-leader-of-international-efforts-to-keep- homosexuality-illegal/

    NARTH adopts Leona Tyler Principle

    February 8, 2007 – The Leona Tyler Principle, adopted by the American Psychological Association (APA) in 1973, has just been unanimously adopted by …

    wthrockmorton.com/2007/02/10/narth-adopts-leona-tyler-principle/

    NARTH burnishes science credentials by promoting Torah Declaration

    Jan 3, 2012 … Leaders of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) like to say that the group is a scientific …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-burnishes-science-credentials-by-promoting- torah-declaration/

    Michael Brown: Here is a taste of next month’s NARTH conference

    Oct 3, 2011 … The National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality claims to be a scientific organization. However, a review of their …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/michael-brown-here-is-a-taste-of-next-months-narth- conference/

    Lisa Diamond: NARTH distorts my research

    Nov 12, 2008 … To be sure, at least one NARTH document I have reviewed does use Diamond’s research to mislead readers, but I do not think NARTH as an …
    wthrockmorton.com/2008/…/lisa-diamond-narth-distorts-my-research/

  • fws

    Of course you are being dishonest Charlie.

    How do I know that? I went to Throckmorton’s own site. There I discovered that he criticises NARTH constantly and says they misuse his work!

    And is your mind made up? Yes. Will you believe what he says? no. Will you continue as you are doing now? yes.

    The following articles and links are by using the custom google search field in Dr Throckmorton’s own site. Go see for your own self. But will any of this change your views? Of COURSE not!

    NARTH issues statement on sexual orientation change

    Jan 29, 2012 … I think NARTH misunderstand the objections to repairitive therapy by focusing only on one aspect of criticism. While repairitive therapy’s efficacy …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-issues-statement-on-sexual-orientation-change/

    NARTH is not primarily composed of mental health professionals

    Oct 24, 2011 … The influence of NARTH comes from the fact that religiously conservative groups like FRC recommend the organization and refer to it as a …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-is-not-primarily-composed-of-mental-health- professionals/

    Thoughts on NARTH’s statement on sexual orientation change

    Jan 30, 2012 … I am surprised that NARTH complains about religiously mediated change when they highlight such change on the organization website.

    wthrockmorton.com/…/thoughts-on-narths-statement-on-sexual-orientation- change/

    NARTH Report: Suicide attempts increase during sexual orientation …

    Sep 26, 2011 … Writing in the second edition of NARTH’s (National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) Journal of Human Sexuality, …

    wThrockmorton.com/…/narth-report-suicide-attempts-increase-during-sexual- orientation-change-therapy/

    nARTH Founder Retracts Claim of Sexual Reorientation via Lexapro

    Dec 1, 2011 … While examining NARTH’s 2009 review of past studies on homosexuality ( Journal of Human Sexuality, Vol.1 – click the link for the entire issue), …
    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-founder-retracts-claim-of-sexual-reorientation- via-lexapro/

    NARTH features leader of international efforts to keep …

    Oct 31, 2011 … In this context, it is striking that NARTH has refused to declare opposition to criminalization of homosexuality. In December, 2009, I asked …
    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-features-leader-of-international-efforts-to-keep- homosexuality-illegal/

    NARTH adopts Leona Tyler Principle

    February 8, 2007 – The Leona Tyler Principle, adopted by the American Psychological Association (APA) in 1973, has just been unanimously adopted by …

    wthrockmorton.com/2007/02/10/narth-adopts-leona-tyler-principle/

    NARTH burnishes science credentials by promoting Torah Declaration

    Jan 3, 2012 … Leaders of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) like to say that the group is a scientific …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/narth-burnishes-science-credentials-by-promoting- torah-declaration/

    Michael Brown: Here is a taste of next month’s NARTH conference

    Oct 3, 2011 … The National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality claims to be a scientific organization. However, a review of their …

    wthrockmorton.com/…/michael-brown-here-is-a-taste-of-next-months-narth- conference/

    Lisa Diamond: NARTH distorts my research

    Nov 12, 2008 … To be sure, at least one NARTH document I have reviewed does use Diamond’s research to mislead readers, but I do not think NARTH as an …
    wthrockmorton.com/2008/…/lisa-diamond-narth-distorts-my-research/

  • fws

    charlie,

    further you did not even attempt to respond to or answer my comments about matt 19 or 1 cor 7 did you? So even Holy Scripture will not convince you.

    Paul says that

    a) celebacy is a gift that cannot be achieved by working at it, as does jesus in matt 19. It is not available to all as you claim. 1 cor 7 and matt 19

    b) st paul says that the ONLY method for “sexual self-control is marriage and then within marriage to always have sex whenever one of the spouses is feeling the urge. 1 cor 7

    c) it is sinful to seek a miracle from God when he has provided normal and ordinary means. it would be sinful to refuse the ordinary means of nurture called food expecting God to nurture by miracle and so refuse food. in the same way it is sinful to seek a miraculous form of sexual self-control when he points us to marriage as that form he prescribes. “it is better to obey than to sacrifice” (God to king saul)

  • fws

    charlie,

    further you did not even attempt to respond to or answer my comments about matt 19 or 1 cor 7 did you? So even Holy Scripture will not convince you.

    Paul says that

    a) celebacy is a gift that cannot be achieved by working at it, as does jesus in matt 19. It is not available to all as you claim. 1 cor 7 and matt 19

    b) st paul says that the ONLY method for “sexual self-control is marriage and then within marriage to always have sex whenever one of the spouses is feeling the urge. 1 cor 7

    c) it is sinful to seek a miracle from God when he has provided normal and ordinary means. it would be sinful to refuse the ordinary means of nurture called food expecting God to nurture by miracle and so refuse food. in the same way it is sinful to seek a miraculous form of sexual self-control when he points us to marriage as that form he prescribes. “it is better to obey than to sacrifice” (God to king saul)

  • Charlie

    FWS, I am sorry I linked to NARTH; I was unaware of Throckmorton’s disavowal of their use of his research. I did not read the whole of your statement – but that is not the only link, and Throckmorton and others do claim, and have research to back it up, that those with same-sex attraction can change both their behavior and their desires.

    It seems that you and I share different presuppositions on Biblical interpretation. Thus, it is pointless for me to respond to your statements, which are hard to grasp because you take positions which seem utterly unreasonable based on what the Bible says about itself and about how God works.

    I cannot agree with you that, in this one area, God has told us that he only works by miracle without the use of any means whatsoever. If the only thing you can accept is a complete change that “falls from heaven” entire, then there is no point talking. You have not made the case that this is so; you assert it with great passion, but I do not see that in the text.

    So: FAREWELL. I shall post no further comments in response to you. It is pointless. I probably could answer all your questions, if I had hours and hours to write, but I do not.

  • Charlie

    FWS, I am sorry I linked to NARTH; I was unaware of Throckmorton’s disavowal of their use of his research. I did not read the whole of your statement – but that is not the only link, and Throckmorton and others do claim, and have research to back it up, that those with same-sex attraction can change both their behavior and their desires.

    It seems that you and I share different presuppositions on Biblical interpretation. Thus, it is pointless for me to respond to your statements, which are hard to grasp because you take positions which seem utterly unreasonable based on what the Bible says about itself and about how God works.

    I cannot agree with you that, in this one area, God has told us that he only works by miracle without the use of any means whatsoever. If the only thing you can accept is a complete change that “falls from heaven” entire, then there is no point talking. You have not made the case that this is so; you assert it with great passion, but I do not see that in the text.

    So: FAREWELL. I shall post no further comments in response to you. It is pointless. I probably could answer all your questions, if I had hours and hours to write, but I do not.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Pastor Charlie,

    Thank you for attempting to biblically reach out and to biblically reason with Frank Sonntek (fws). At least you tried. Very diligently as well.

    For what it’s worth, on a prior thread fws would not even acknowledge that the Bible declares that anal intercourse between two consenting men is sin. His refusal to even see the timeless Truth of Scripture in that … showed me a deep unrepentant hardening of the heart that is similar to Pharaoh’s.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Pastor Charlie,

    Thank you for attempting to biblically reach out and to biblically reason with Frank Sonntek (fws). At least you tried. Very diligently as well.

    For what it’s worth, on a prior thread fws would not even acknowledge that the Bible declares that anal intercourse between two consenting men is sin. His refusal to even see the timeless Truth of Scripture in that … showed me a deep unrepentant hardening of the heart that is similar to Pharaoh’s.

  • Charlie

    Thanks, TU&D. I did not know that about FWS. It is a shame – but he does not have to answer to me or anyone else on earth, and while he may be able to force us into silence, there is One before whom his mouth will be stopped.

    I am so thankful that we have Jesus Christ, his atoning death, and his righteous life upon which to base our hope before that One.

  • Charlie

    Thanks, TU&D. I did not know that about FWS. It is a shame – but he does not have to answer to me or anyone else on earth, and while he may be able to force us into silence, there is One before whom his mouth will be stopped.

    I am so thankful that we have Jesus Christ, his atoning death, and his righteous life upon which to base our hope before that One.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Pastor Charlie,

    If you have the time and the inclination, check out the comments (particularly fws’s) in this longish comment thread here on Cranach:

    Denying Communion to a Lesbian.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Pastor Charlie,

    If you have the time and the inclination, check out the comments (particularly fws’s) in this longish comment thread here on Cranach:

    Denying Communion to a Lesbian.

  • Grace

    Charlie,

    Your patience with fws is admirable.

    Most of us have pointed out Scripture that explains homosexuality.

    I have posted many statistics and warnings from the Center for Disease Control (CDC) on countless occasions regarding HIV/AIDS, the main subject being, male to male sex. It’s all fallen on deaf ears.

    I have enjoyed your posts Charlie. You never know who else might have read what you wrote, giving them the courage to seek the LORD first and ask forgiveness, and seek Christian organizations that will help them.

    God bless you

  • Grace

    Charlie,

    Your patience with fws is admirable.

    Most of us have pointed out Scripture that explains homosexuality.

    I have posted many statistics and warnings from the Center for Disease Control (CDC) on countless occasions regarding HIV/AIDS, the main subject being, male to male sex. It’s all fallen on deaf ears.

    I have enjoyed your posts Charlie. You never know who else might have read what you wrote, giving them the courage to seek the LORD first and ask forgiveness, and seek Christian organizations that will help them.

    God bless you

  • Grace

    Truth,

    I’m glad you pointed to the other thread “Denying Communion to a Lesbian.” – it’s a good example of what goes on.

  • Grace

    Truth,

    I’m glad you pointed to the other thread “Denying Communion to a Lesbian.” – it’s a good example of what goes on.

  • Charlie

    While not directly on the topic posted by our blog host, this story deals with many of the points under discussion in our comments:
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/life-after-lesbianism

  • Charlie

    While not directly on the topic posted by our blog host, this story deals with many of the points under discussion in our comments:
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/life-after-lesbianism

  • fws

    charle @ 94

    1) no serious response to the scripture passages I provided that , by the way offer no support at all for homosexuality or gay marriage or whatever.

    2) you continue to insist on misrepresenting what throckmortons research indicates. shame on you. and you provide no other serious research to support your claims

    3) more anecdotal evidence and the logical leap that whatever anecdote you present to us is supposed to be true for any other gay.

    why not try to be more honest?

    3)

  • fws

    charle @ 94

    1) no serious response to the scripture passages I provided that , by the way offer no support at all for homosexuality or gay marriage or whatever.

    2) you continue to insist on misrepresenting what throckmortons research indicates. shame on you. and you provide no other serious research to support your claims

    3) more anecdotal evidence and the logical leap that whatever anecdote you present to us is supposed to be true for any other gay.

    why not try to be more honest?

    3)

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Grace, #93,

    Thanks Grace!

    —–

    FWS,

    Suppose a man is married to a woman, his wife, and he then has sexual affair(s) with another man/men (be it anal intercourse or by some other stimulation whereby orgasm is attained), would you stipulate that this behavior is sin per Scripture?

    Would you agree that that’s adultery, a sin condemned in Scripture?

    Furthermore, suppose two people commit sexual acts outside of biblical marriage. Would you agree that God’s Word condemns this sin as the sin of fornication?

    What say thee, fws?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Grace, #93,

    Thanks Grace!

    —–

    FWS,

    Suppose a man is married to a woman, his wife, and he then has sexual affair(s) with another man/men (be it anal intercourse or by some other stimulation whereby orgasm is attained), would you stipulate that this behavior is sin per Scripture?

    Would you agree that that’s adultery, a sin condemned in Scripture?

    Furthermore, suppose two people commit sexual acts outside of biblical marriage. Would you agree that God’s Word condemns this sin as the sin of fornication?

    What say thee, fws?

  • fws

    TUD @ 96

    case 1 is wrong. it would be sinful for the two men and possibly for the wife as well depending on the details.

    case 2 “biblical marriage”. “fornication”. define these biblical for me.

    Biblical marriage: adam and eve? no marriage ceremony. christ and bride? in his day the man bought his bride. She had no choice at all in the matter. and she literally became his chattel property. That is why the biblical definion of rape differs from ours. Biblically rape is a violation of property rights. Usually the biblical requirement was for the rapist to marry the woman he raped. So all this stuff falls under the context of “biblical marriage”. “one man and woman in lifelong union” is the prefall ideal. Dont we need to fold in the rest of what I presented for a fully formed “biblical marriage”. Should we demand that all marriages be arranged then? and that rapists marry their victims? and that legally, we push to change the laws to make women property of their husbands? we are told that a man and a prostitute have a one flesh union. does that mean they are married? what say you?

    fornication: the greek word is “porneia”, the word we get pornography from. It is a sin, and it is about sex. I am not sure we can pinpoint much beyond that as to what that word is defined as biblically. I could be wrong. Enlighten me if you have more information on this than I do.

  • fws

    TUD @ 96

    case 1 is wrong. it would be sinful for the two men and possibly for the wife as well depending on the details.

    case 2 “biblical marriage”. “fornication”. define these biblical for me.

    Biblical marriage: adam and eve? no marriage ceremony. christ and bride? in his day the man bought his bride. She had no choice at all in the matter. and she literally became his chattel property. That is why the biblical definion of rape differs from ours. Biblically rape is a violation of property rights. Usually the biblical requirement was for the rapist to marry the woman he raped. So all this stuff falls under the context of “biblical marriage”. “one man and woman in lifelong union” is the prefall ideal. Dont we need to fold in the rest of what I presented for a fully formed “biblical marriage”. Should we demand that all marriages be arranged then? and that rapists marry their victims? and that legally, we push to change the laws to make women property of their husbands? we are told that a man and a prostitute have a one flesh union. does that mean they are married? what say you?

    fornication: the greek word is “porneia”, the word we get pornography from. It is a sin, and it is about sex. I am not sure we can pinpoint much beyond that as to what that word is defined as biblically. I could be wrong. Enlighten me if you have more information on this than I do.

  • fws

    tud @ 96

    if it is any help the lutheran confessions say this about marriage and sexual self control:

    a) celebacy is only possible by a singular work and gift of God. it is a miracle that is not available to all and cannot be worked at to attain. see paragraph 19 of the apology to the augsburg confession over at http://www.bookofconcord.org to confirm that this is so,

    b) in 1 cor 7 st paul says that the ONLY form of biblical “sexual self control ” is for one to get married and then ALWAYS have sex whenever either spouse is feeling the urge. The Lutheran Confessions repeat this.

    c) therefore, ordinarily, short of a miracle, ALL men and women are commanded to marry. and here ‘miracle” and “gift” mean just that, and not “he is a gifted artist” (ie a gift that requires work to develop) and “miracle” in the sense of walking on water rather than the metaphoric meaning as in “childbirth is a miracle”…..

    and ALL are commanded to exercise biblical “sexual self control” as the bible has defined it, and with the means God has provided called male/female marriage.

    b)

  • fws

    tud @ 96

    if it is any help the lutheran confessions say this about marriage and sexual self control:

    a) celebacy is only possible by a singular work and gift of God. it is a miracle that is not available to all and cannot be worked at to attain. see paragraph 19 of the apology to the augsburg confession over at http://www.bookofconcord.org to confirm that this is so,

    b) in 1 cor 7 st paul says that the ONLY form of biblical “sexual self control ” is for one to get married and then ALWAYS have sex whenever either spouse is feeling the urge. The Lutheran Confessions repeat this.

    c) therefore, ordinarily, short of a miracle, ALL men and women are commanded to marry. and here ‘miracle” and “gift” mean just that, and not “he is a gifted artist” (ie a gift that requires work to develop) and “miracle” in the sense of walking on water rather than the metaphoric meaning as in “childbirth is a miracle”…..

    and ALL are commanded to exercise biblical “sexual self control” as the bible has defined it, and with the means God has provided called male/female marriage.

    b)

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    fws, @97,

    In one aspect, and briefly, biblical marriage is one man and one woman.

    “fornication: the greek word is “porneia”, the word we get pornography from. It is a sin, and it is about sex.”

    FWS, do you whole-heartedly affirm that Scripture teaches that fornication (both homosexual and heterosexual fornication) is a sin?

    For example, two men fornicate with each other. Do you support the Bible’s teaching that this same-sex fornicating behavior is sin?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    fws, @97,

    In one aspect, and briefly, biblical marriage is one man and one woman.

    “fornication: the greek word is “porneia”, the word we get pornography from. It is a sin, and it is about sex.”

    FWS, do you whole-heartedly affirm that Scripture teaches that fornication (both homosexual and heterosexual fornication) is a sin?

    For example, two men fornicate with each other. Do you support the Bible’s teaching that this same-sex fornicating behavior is sin?

  • fws

    tud @99

    fornication is always a sin and it is always sexual. Yes I believe that wholeheartedly . ‘

    What is your name please?

    ” biblical marriage is one man and one woman” is an extremely incomplete statement. you know that. is a marriage biblical if it is not arranged? if it is polygamous? if there is no marriage ceremony? if there was no sexual consumation?

  • fws

    tud @99

    fornication is always a sin and it is always sexual. Yes I believe that wholeheartedly . ‘

    What is your name please?

    ” biblical marriage is one man and one woman” is an extremely incomplete statement. you know that. is a marriage biblical if it is not arranged? if it is polygamous? if there is no marriage ceremony? if there was no sexual consumation?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    FWS, @100,

    It is good to see you wholeheartedly affirming the condemnation same-sex fornicating behavior as a sin just like Holy Scripture does.

    Suppose two baptized Lutheran men commit the sin of fornication with each other. FWS, how would you help these men stop and repent of their homosexual fornication?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    FWS, @100,

    It is good to see you wholeheartedly affirming the condemnation same-sex fornicating behavior as a sin just like Holy Scripture does.

    Suppose two baptized Lutheran men commit the sin of fornication with each other. FWS, how would you help these men stop and repent of their homosexual fornication?

  • fws

    tud @ 101

    The bible has not commanded me to deal with hypothetical situations Tuad.

    You have not answered most of my questions. and the one you did answer was not a very complete answer was it?

    My turn:

    Do you believe that God has commanded anyone who cant exercise sexual selfcontrol to get married? 1 cor 7. would you agree that there is NO other way to exercise sexual self control commanded in scripture?

  • fws

    tud @ 101

    The bible has not commanded me to deal with hypothetical situations Tuad.

    You have not answered most of my questions. and the one you did answer was not a very complete answer was it?

    My turn:

    Do you believe that God has commanded anyone who cant exercise sexual selfcontrol to get married? 1 cor 7. would you agree that there is NO other way to exercise sexual self control commanded in scripture?

  • fws

    tud @ 101

    the bible does not condemn same sex sexual sinning.

    the bible condemns sexual sinning no matter who does it. The Bible assumes that everyone is a heterosexual, and that some heterosexuals sin, sexually, with other men.

    So dont put words into my mouth ok?

  • fws

    tud @ 101

    the bible does not condemn same sex sexual sinning.

    the bible condemns sexual sinning no matter who does it. The Bible assumes that everyone is a heterosexual, and that some heterosexuals sin, sexually, with other men.

    So dont put words into my mouth ok?

  • fws

    tuad @ 103

    of course, for my last post to make any sense at all, I would need to say “the bible does not condemn same sex sexual sinning.. PER SE.”

    sexual sinning IS sin whether it is same sex or multi sex or hetero sex or whatever kind. I am saying that there is no distinction made in the bible contrasting same sex sinning vs other sexual sinning. the biblical assumption assumes that there are only heterosexuals, and that some sin sexually with the same gender.

  • fws

    tuad @ 103

    of course, for my last post to make any sense at all, I would need to say “the bible does not condemn same sex sexual sinning.. PER SE.”

    sexual sinning IS sin whether it is same sex or multi sex or hetero sex or whatever kind. I am saying that there is no distinction made in the bible contrasting same sex sinning vs other sexual sinning. the biblical assumption assumes that there are only heterosexuals, and that some sin sexually with the same gender.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “So dont put words into my mouth ok?”

    FWS, what words did I put in your mouth that you disagree with and disavow as being wrong and not representative of what you mean?

    Quote the sentence and then follow that quote with what you really truly mean. Thanks.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “So dont put words into my mouth ok?”

    FWS, what words did I put in your mouth that you disagree with and disavow as being wrong and not representative of what you mean?

    Quote the sentence and then follow that quote with what you really truly mean. Thanks.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    fws, #104: “sexual sinning IS sin whether it is same sex or multi sex or hetero sex or whatever kind. I am saying that there is no distinction made in the bible contrasting same sex sinning vs other sexual sinning.”

    If you re-read my #99, I wrote:

    “FWS, do you whole-heartedly affirm that Scripture teaches that fornication (both homosexual and heterosexual fornication) is a sin?

    For example, two men fornicate with each other. Do you support the Bible’s teaching that this same-sex fornicating behavior is sin?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    fws, #104: “sexual sinning IS sin whether it is same sex or multi sex or hetero sex or whatever kind. I am saying that there is no distinction made in the bible contrasting same sex sinning vs other sexual sinning.”

    If you re-read my #99, I wrote:

    “FWS, do you whole-heartedly affirm that Scripture teaches that fornication (both homosexual and heterosexual fornication) is a sin?

    For example, two men fornicate with each other. Do you support the Bible’s teaching that this same-sex fornicating behavior is sin?

  • fws

    tuad…

    whatever.

  • fws

    tuad…

    whatever.

  • Charlie

    This is supposed to be a conversation, not a posting of links, but I am going to give some links anyway, as they may be of help to people.

    1 Robert Gagnon’s web site. Dr Gagnon is a prof of NT at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and perhaps the world’s authority on the Bible and homosexuality. He shows convincingly that the Bible regards all forms of sexual activity outside of marriage to be sinful.
    http://www.robgagnon.net/

    Exodus International is the umbrella organization for a large number of local or regional “ex-gay” ministries. This link is to their “fact sheet” page which describes what their goals are and are not.
    http://exodusinternational.org/press/fact-sheet/#.T410Q6tSTlc
    You can easily get from this page to their home page.

    Regeneration is the ministry I have known the longest and best. It began with a complete focus on helping those Christians with same-sex attraction and a desire to be obedient to God to deal with their same-sex attraction/behavior.
    http://regenerationministries.org/

    This is a link to a blog by someone who is learning to deal with his same-sex attractions and who is intending to be faithful to God’s teaching on sexual activity. I just found it yesterday, but it is honest and compassionate in the young man’s struggles and victories.
    http://idonthavetobegay.blogspot.com/?gclid=CKWUzOv0u68CFYURNAodv024jw

    I hope that these links are helpful to other readers of this blog post and comments.

    It interesting to note that Exodus says that it does not engage in “reparative therapy.” Rather, it is a support group for those seeking to change their behavior.

    PS – No trolls need reply; this is not for you but for those interested in the positive aspects of the links.

  • Charlie

    This is supposed to be a conversation, not a posting of links, but I am going to give some links anyway, as they may be of help to people.

    1 Robert Gagnon’s web site. Dr Gagnon is a prof of NT at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and perhaps the world’s authority on the Bible and homosexuality. He shows convincingly that the Bible regards all forms of sexual activity outside of marriage to be sinful.
    http://www.robgagnon.net/

    Exodus International is the umbrella organization for a large number of local or regional “ex-gay” ministries. This link is to their “fact sheet” page which describes what their goals are and are not.
    http://exodusinternational.org/press/fact-sheet/#.T410Q6tSTlc
    You can easily get from this page to their home page.

    Regeneration is the ministry I have known the longest and best. It began with a complete focus on helping those Christians with same-sex attraction and a desire to be obedient to God to deal with their same-sex attraction/behavior.
    http://regenerationministries.org/

    This is a link to a blog by someone who is learning to deal with his same-sex attractions and who is intending to be faithful to God’s teaching on sexual activity. I just found it yesterday, but it is honest and compassionate in the young man’s struggles and victories.
    http://idonthavetobegay.blogspot.com/?gclid=CKWUzOv0u68CFYURNAodv024jw

    I hope that these links are helpful to other readers of this blog post and comments.

    It interesting to note that Exodus says that it does not engage in “reparative therapy.” Rather, it is a support group for those seeking to change their behavior.

    PS – No trolls need reply; this is not for you but for those interested in the positive aspects of the links.

  • Grace

    Truth

    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
    2 Timothy 4

  • Grace

    Truth

    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
    2 Timothy 4

  • fws

    Charlie.

    yes
    exodus has changed its view and now rejects the idea that reparative therapyworks. they now say that homosexuality cannot be cured in most cAses in the sense that gays can become straight. the best one can aim for is celibacy.

  • fws

    Charlie.

    yes
    exodus has changed its view and now rejects the idea that reparative therapyworks. they now say that homosexuality cannot be cured in most cAses in the sense that gays can become straight. the best one can aim for is celibacy.

  • Charlie

    From the Exodus web site: “Exodus is a group of individuals seeking to live lives that are consistent with the teachings of the Bible, which encompass issues surrounding our sexuality. Some may change their sexual behavior to align with biblical teaching on sexuality and may experience a shift in sexual attractions or orientation; others may not. We are motivated not by a shift in attraction or orientation, but by the desire to live a life consistent with our faith.”

    Some are married, some are not. All are seeking greater wholeness and to live in obedience to God’s teaching. Mario Bergener, who heads the Exodus affiliate Redeemed Lives spent ten years in “the gay lifestyle.” He is now married with five children. That is not celibacy.

  • Charlie

    From the Exodus web site: “Exodus is a group of individuals seeking to live lives that are consistent with the teachings of the Bible, which encompass issues surrounding our sexuality. Some may change their sexual behavior to align with biblical teaching on sexuality and may experience a shift in sexual attractions or orientation; others may not. We are motivated not by a shift in attraction or orientation, but by the desire to live a life consistent with our faith.”

    Some are married, some are not. All are seeking greater wholeness and to live in obedience to God’s teaching. Mario Bergener, who heads the Exodus affiliate Redeemed Lives spent ten years in “the gay lifestyle.” He is now married with five children. That is not celibacy.

  • http://www.wix.com/newsfor2011/2012 Diane Hedgman

    Homosexuality, crimes, disease…, There is nothing new under the Son, see what I mean. Miracles, Scripture Unsealed, Wisdom, wix.com/newsfor2011/2012
    Apostle Diane Hedgman

  • http://www.wix.com/newsfor2011/2012 Diane Hedgman

    Homosexuality, crimes, disease…, There is nothing new under the Son, see what I mean. Miracles, Scripture Unsealed, Wisdom, wix.com/newsfor2011/2012
    Apostle Diane Hedgman

  • Rose

    Jesus? Hah!
    So much feom the bible has been proven to be stolen from other religions, and two other countries have proven gay is something you are born being.

    Research your own religion, let people live their lives and GROW UP.

    Or just join WBC. Most of you would fit in.

  • Rose

    Jesus? Hah!
    So much feom the bible has been proven to be stolen from other religions, and two other countries have proven gay is something you are born being.

    Research your own religion, let people live their lives and GROW UP.

    Or just join WBC. Most of you would fit in.

  • Pingback: SiftingPoint | Missing? Transitional? Conception.

  • Pingback: SiftingPoint | Missing? Transitional? Conception.

  • ginger

    If being gay was genetic why haven’t any scientist discovered it in the human gnome? Scientist have map every single one of our genes and haven’t found a gay gene. Not only that even if by some small chance there was, scientists say that doesn’t mean you’re hardwired to be gay. From what they say genes have very little influence over one’s behavior.

  • ginger

    If being gay was genetic why haven’t any scientist discovered it in the human gnome? Scientist have map every single one of our genes and haven’t found a gay gene. Not only that even if by some small chance there was, scientists say that doesn’t mean you’re hardwired to be gay. From what they say genes have very little influence over one’s behavior.

  • ithinktoomuch

    Don’t get hung up on genetics. Only one “gay gene” has been found, it only functions that way in men (it’s an X-chromosome gene), and is only found in about a third of gay men. Uterine hormonal factors play a large role in LGBT orientation too. One rather well-studied non-genetic contributor is the Fraternal Birth Order Effect, where each male child a woman has is more and more likely to be gay. This effect has also been studied in families who didn’t live together and it bears out.

  • ithinktoomuch

    Don’t get hung up on genetics. Only one “gay gene” has been found, it only functions that way in men (it’s an X-chromosome gene), and is only found in about a third of gay men. Uterine hormonal factors play a large role in LGBT orientation too. One rather well-studied non-genetic contributor is the Fraternal Birth Order Effect, where each male child a woman has is more and more likely to be gay. This effect has also been studied in families who didn’t live together and it bears out.

  • Nope

    Oh god the stupid
    So much stupid.

  • Nope

    Oh god the stupid
    So much stupid.

  • fws

    Fortunately all of this discussion pertains, alone, to this earthly existence and will all perish with the Earth just as romans 8 says will happen to all virtue and righeousness that we can see and do on Earth.

    the Holy Spirit and Christ áre, alone, needed for that heart trust and knowing that , alone can be planted in our hearts by hearing Two Words “given and shed FOR YOU for the forgiveness of sins.”

    These are , alone, the Two Words that gays must hear, that alone, are Life for them. So we must do all we can to welcome gays into our churches and speak those two words to them unconditionally . That is our most urgent and blessed task.

    Is gay nature or nurture? It really doesnt matter in terms of any eternal consequences at all.

  • fws

    Fortunately all of this discussion pertains, alone, to this earthly existence and will all perish with the Earth just as romans 8 says will happen to all virtue and righeousness that we can see and do on Earth.

    the Holy Spirit and Christ áre, alone, needed for that heart trust and knowing that , alone can be planted in our hearts by hearing Two Words “given and shed FOR YOU for the forgiveness of sins.”

    These are , alone, the Two Words that gays must hear, that alone, are Life for them. So we must do all we can to welcome gays into our churches and speak those two words to them unconditionally . That is our most urgent and blessed task.

    Is gay nature or nurture? It really doesnt matter in terms of any eternal consequences at all.

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