No adult supervision

Alexandra Petri usually writes humorous punditry, but not when she considers the case of George Huguely V who got drunk at the University of Virginia and killed his girlfriend.  Her descriptions of the moral climate at most of our colleges and universities and the complete lack of adult supervision are quite accurate:

The setting is a character on its own: the college campus, where hook-up culture runs rampant and you are expected to drink four times a week, where you can sleep with someone and he can come to the stand and say that you were just friends, and it can be true. It’s a no-man’s land in which everyone wants to have fun without consequence. Where people are just mature enough to act immaturely. . . .

Under the best of circumstances, drugs, alcohol, sex, sports and a lack of supervision can be a potent and bewildering combination. This is hard enough when it’s going well, when calling yourself an “alcoholic” is a joke among friends. When it’s going badly, it’s impossible.

Where were the adults?

Time and again, reading through the coverage of the trial, I am struck by the — adriftness, for want of a better word — of everyone involved in this. There’s the discipline of sports but then, off the field, there’s the strange mess of college life. Sunday Funday. Hookups. Parties. College is a place you arrive after working awfully hard in high school — or at least writing one or two really compelling personal essays — and you are entitled to your share of fun. Afterwards, you might not find a job. So enjoy those four years. Colleges act in loco parentis only in the sense that some parents are very hands-off, have lots of money and only show up to prevent the police from getting involved.

This is the worst kind of protection. The point of college is to admit high school kids and graduate adults. But it is impossible to grow up in a world where no one is watching.

And this is how things go wrong in a world where nothing is supposed to go wrong.

The only thing that happens in moderation on college campuses? Studying. Eat and drink and love and lie, for tomorrow we may graduate. Institutions of higher learning? As the study “Academically Adrift” found, the average college student spends just 12 hours a week, well, studying, avoiding courses with more than 40 pages of reading a week. This is college. They have better things to do. For some, it works out fine. But for others, the lack of supervision comes at a heavy cost.

Where were the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law on that dreadful Monday night when Huguely stormed to [Yeardley] Love’s apartment and bashed in her door?

In life, these awful tragedies happen, and there is little you can do to stop them. The net of family and friends and well-intentioned neighbors is not always woven tightly enough.

But this should not happen at college.

It’s an adult tragedy with adult consequences. Where were the adults?

via The tragedy of George Huguely – ComPost – The Washington Post.

I suspect most parents of university students and most taxpayers who support state institutions have no idea the level of debauchery that has become typical on college campuses today.  The authors of the book referred to above, Academically Adrift, care little about moral issues as such, but they blame the nonstop sex-and-intoxication culture and the hands-off attitude of college administrators as one reason for the collapse of academics that is happening even in big-name institutions.  (Things are different at my institution, Patrick Henry College, both in our moral ethos and in our academic achievements.)

I also suspect that the lack, for all practical purpose, of an adult presence in the world of teenagers also played a role in yesterday’s shootings in that Ohio high school.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Michael B.

    One of the strangest things about the evangelical subculture in America is how people in their 20s are not considered adults. I have 2 Evangelical cousins who are almost in their mid twenties, and you would think you were talking to a 13-year old girl and a 15-year old boy, especially the girl. She’s never been apart from her parents, never held a full-time job, doesn’t go to school, has to ask permission to even go out with a friend. The women, especially, are basically considered perpetual minors, with her father’s authority eventually transferring to her husband’s. It’s probably an overreaction to a death, but this secular article adopts a small amount of that mindset: that these 21 year olds are really 15.

  • Michael B.

    One of the strangest things about the evangelical subculture in America is how people in their 20s are not considered adults. I have 2 Evangelical cousins who are almost in their mid twenties, and you would think you were talking to a 13-year old girl and a 15-year old boy, especially the girl. She’s never been apart from her parents, never held a full-time job, doesn’t go to school, has to ask permission to even go out with a friend. The women, especially, are basically considered perpetual minors, with her father’s authority eventually transferring to her husband’s. It’s probably an overreaction to a death, but this secular article adopts a small amount of that mindset: that these 21 year olds are really 15.

  • Rose

    It’s her father’s protection that transfers to her husband.
    That’s the standard in Christian homes.
    The culture dropped that standard with the results that women suffer.

  • Rose

    It’s her father’s protection that transfers to her husband.
    That’s the standard in Christian homes.
    The culture dropped that standard with the results that women suffer.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Not that this is a new thing. One only has to read Chaucer….

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Not that this is a new thing. One only has to read Chaucer….

  • Joe

    A college age person should be mature enough to handle college. Treat people like kids – with no expectation of maturity and responsibility – and this is what you get.

  • Joe

    A college age person should be mature enough to handle college. Treat people like kids – with no expectation of maturity and responsibility – and this is what you get.

  • http://www.aclutteredmind.org Kevin Sorensen

    It is not helpful that there has been so much said lately (past 2-3 years) about “helicopter parents,” the type who check in & appear to hover over their child during these “away years” at college. Maybe they’re not so wrong after all?

  • http://www.aclutteredmind.org Kevin Sorensen

    It is not helpful that there has been so much said lately (past 2-3 years) about “helicopter parents,” the type who check in & appear to hover over their child during these “away years” at college. Maybe they’re not so wrong after all?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Of course they should be adults. But the point is, they aren’t. Or they aren’t acting like it. They are not treated like kids. They are treated like adults. But they, like many older adults I admit, act like perpetual adolescents. The problem, I hasten to say, is not just with how the colleges function. Many of the students who start drinking on Thursday–to the point that some schools have dropped Friday classes!–and come to class hungover on Monday (see Academically Adrift) have had little parenting in their lives.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Of course they should be adults. But the point is, they aren’t. Or they aren’t acting like it. They are not treated like kids. They are treated like adults. But they, like many older adults I admit, act like perpetual adolescents. The problem, I hasten to say, is not just with how the colleges function. Many of the students who start drinking on Thursday–to the point that some schools have dropped Friday classes!–and come to class hungover on Monday (see Academically Adrift) have had little parenting in their lives.

  • Cincinnatus

    Fair point, and I can verify the general atmosphere of debauchery from experience (my students are hungover on Monday mornings more frequently than not). But two notes:

    1. College students are adults. With a few exceptions, the youngest are 18–entitled to vote, marry, smoke, die for their country, etc. When, exactly, is one considered an adult in the eyes of the moralists?

    2. Colleges have been infamous for youthful debauchery since ancient times (literally: observers of Roman academic culture noted with shock and amusement the follies of students, among whom was St. Augustine), and medieval colleges like Oxford were just as well-known for evening inebriation as for noontime scholarship.

    The problem isn’t a lack of rules and adult supervision. As usual, the problem is rooted in the culture. This, in fact, I found to be one of PHC’s fundamental mistakes in its early years: the notion that rules and excessive supervision can create a virtuous student body.

  • Cincinnatus

    Fair point, and I can verify the general atmosphere of debauchery from experience (my students are hungover on Monday mornings more frequently than not). But two notes:

    1. College students are adults. With a few exceptions, the youngest are 18–entitled to vote, marry, smoke, die for their country, etc. When, exactly, is one considered an adult in the eyes of the moralists?

    2. Colleges have been infamous for youthful debauchery since ancient times (literally: observers of Roman academic culture noted with shock and amusement the follies of students, among whom was St. Augustine), and medieval colleges like Oxford were just as well-known for evening inebriation as for noontime scholarship.

    The problem isn’t a lack of rules and adult supervision. As usual, the problem is rooted in the culture. This, in fact, I found to be one of PHC’s fundamental mistakes in its early years: the notion that rules and excessive supervision can create a virtuous student body.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    We have for some time been pushing back the emotional and mental development of our young people. In ages past, teens were expected to act like an adult. Now we expect them to act like overgrown children. This has been creeping into college ages for some time now. It used to irk me that people would call me a kid. No, I was an adult. I should be expected to act like an adult. I had little sympathy for students who acted so irresponsibly when I was in school, but then I never saw college as the time to party. I was at the time trying for Vet Med, and I didn’t want to screw that up with drinking and partying. That and I never saw what was so fun about being plastered. I’d have a drink or two with friends but never got drunk. There was also the additional incentive I knew what we did to friends who did get drunk. We did some awesome pranks on them.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    We have for some time been pushing back the emotional and mental development of our young people. In ages past, teens were expected to act like an adult. Now we expect them to act like overgrown children. This has been creeping into college ages for some time now. It used to irk me that people would call me a kid. No, I was an adult. I should be expected to act like an adult. I had little sympathy for students who acted so irresponsibly when I was in school, but then I never saw college as the time to party. I was at the time trying for Vet Med, and I didn’t want to screw that up with drinking and partying. That and I never saw what was so fun about being plastered. I’d have a drink or two with friends but never got drunk. There was also the additional incentive I knew what we did to friends who did get drunk. We did some awesome pranks on them.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    C’mon people:

    Plautius, using characters from his day, writes about errant sons – in 200 BC. Augustus changes laws to reassert “Family Morality”.

    Drinking and rowdiness by students at the University of Paris on Shrove Tuesday in March 1229 leads to triots, which eventually leads to the Great University Strike of 1229, which only ends in 1231 by direct action of pope Gregory IX.

    And anyone of you can read the Student’s Tale in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales, and the Debauchery contained therein.

    Point is, it has always been thus with students and young folks of that age. And the reaction has also always been thus. And the predictability of it all is pretty hilarious… Young men sowing oats, old men growing sage… :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    C’mon people:

    Plautius, using characters from his day, writes about errant sons – in 200 BC. Augustus changes laws to reassert “Family Morality”.

    Drinking and rowdiness by students at the University of Paris on Shrove Tuesday in March 1229 leads to triots, which eventually leads to the Great University Strike of 1229, which only ends in 1231 by direct action of pope Gregory IX.

    And anyone of you can read the Student’s Tale in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales, and the Debauchery contained therein.

    Point is, it has always been thus with students and young folks of that age. And the reaction has also always been thus. And the predictability of it all is pretty hilarious… Young men sowing oats, old men growing sage… :)

  • Joe

    My point was that the helicoptering parents ruin the kids well before they ever get to college. No chance to test and fail, no chance to learn from mistakes and worst of all no consequences to bad behavior or even substandard performances. What can you expect to happen when you take someone who has never had to deal with the consequences of their own actions and put them in a setting where vices are plentiful. I am not shocked by this report in the least.

  • Joe

    My point was that the helicoptering parents ruin the kids well before they ever get to college. No chance to test and fail, no chance to learn from mistakes and worst of all no consequences to bad behavior or even substandard performances. What can you expect to happen when you take someone who has never had to deal with the consequences of their own actions and put them in a setting where vices are plentiful. I am not shocked by this report in the least.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinnatus is right, these college students are not kids, they are adults. The first thing we can do is stop calling them kids, stop treating them in the press as if they are kids. Will it stop all the excess, I very much doubt it. Hell I was in my twenties once too. Of course I went into the armed forces where there wasn’t any of this sort of excess…. Right. Well as a matter of fact, there was quite a bit, cheap booze, free room and board and a paycheck. Never made so much money in my life, haven’t since either. But when you got in trouble for going to far, you weren’t treated as a kid. You were never treated as a kid. That was one insult they wouldn’t throw at you.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Cincinnatus is right, these college students are not kids, they are adults. The first thing we can do is stop calling them kids, stop treating them in the press as if they are kids. Will it stop all the excess, I very much doubt it. Hell I was in my twenties once too. Of course I went into the armed forces where there wasn’t any of this sort of excess…. Right. Well as a matter of fact, there was quite a bit, cheap booze, free room and board and a paycheck. Never made so much money in my life, haven’t since either. But when you got in trouble for going to far, you weren’t treated as a kid. You were never treated as a kid. That was one insult they wouldn’t throw at you.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    If students aren’t mature before they enter college, then a four-year state/parent/scholarship/loan-funded sabbatical in small unsupervised apartments where they’re sequestered with people of their own age and station is hardly going to make them mature. Supervision is hardly the answer, though. By that age, constant supervision is going to hamper development more than it helps.

    We as a society really need to rethink the myth the baby boomers have been preaching as though it were divine revelation: k-12->college->established career->(maybe)marriage is the only way to be a good citizen, a good American, and a good human being. It’s become apparent that A) after a certain level, school does not make people mature and B) after a certain level, school does not benefit the immature. Maybe things like career and marriage, which are much better at maturing people, should come before college.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    If students aren’t mature before they enter college, then a four-year state/parent/scholarship/loan-funded sabbatical in small unsupervised apartments where they’re sequestered with people of their own age and station is hardly going to make them mature. Supervision is hardly the answer, though. By that age, constant supervision is going to hamper development more than it helps.

    We as a society really need to rethink the myth the baby boomers have been preaching as though it were divine revelation: k-12->college->established career->(maybe)marriage is the only way to be a good citizen, a good American, and a good human being. It’s become apparent that A) after a certain level, school does not make people mature and B) after a certain level, school does not benefit the immature. Maybe things like career and marriage, which are much better at maturing people, should come before college.

  • http://homewardbound-cb.blogspot.com ChrisB

    A big part of the problem is, from the college’s point of view, and in the eyes of the law, they are adults. But our culture has taught them to remain children. The problem is evident in the author’s statement: “The point of college is to admit high school kids and graduate adults.”

    No, college is only supposed to admit adults. They don’t want to raise our kids. They want them to come already raised, and that isn’t likely to change.

  • http://homewardbound-cb.blogspot.com ChrisB

    A big part of the problem is, from the college’s point of view, and in the eyes of the law, they are adults. But our culture has taught them to remain children. The problem is evident in the author’s statement: “The point of college is to admit high school kids and graduate adults.”

    No, college is only supposed to admit adults. They don’t want to raise our kids. They want them to come already raised, and that isn’t likely to change.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I have seen the syndrome that Michael B. describes, but it is not the whole story about “evangelical” youth. I must say that here at PHC, where we run counter to every one of the dysfunctions in “Academically Adrift” (which documents that college students today tend to know LESS and can do less than they did even a few years ago, let alone in Chaucer’s time!), the students, most of whom were homeschooled, have far more self-discipline than most other students I’ve worked for. (They had to work on their own, do their assignments, and not get distracted through their whole education.) They also tend to act more like the adults they are. And while they have adult supervision (not, I hope, as in the bad old days that Cincinnatus alludes to), they need it less. Young people need adults in their lives so they will know how to act like adults.

    I think universities are working with a confusion, treating students both like adults (in letting them do whatever they want) AND treating them like children (protecting them from negative consequences). Adults on the job will lose that job if they don’t do the work and if they come in drunk or hungover. And adults, as we all know, most emphatically CAN’T do whatever we want, that being the fantasy of childhood.

    So, yes, let’s treat college students like adults. They’ll hate that!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I have seen the syndrome that Michael B. describes, but it is not the whole story about “evangelical” youth. I must say that here at PHC, where we run counter to every one of the dysfunctions in “Academically Adrift” (which documents that college students today tend to know LESS and can do less than they did even a few years ago, let alone in Chaucer’s time!), the students, most of whom were homeschooled, have far more self-discipline than most other students I’ve worked for. (They had to work on their own, do their assignments, and not get distracted through their whole education.) They also tend to act more like the adults they are. And while they have adult supervision (not, I hope, as in the bad old days that Cincinnatus alludes to), they need it less. Young people need adults in their lives so they will know how to act like adults.

    I think universities are working with a confusion, treating students both like adults (in letting them do whatever they want) AND treating them like children (protecting them from negative consequences). Adults on the job will lose that job if they don’t do the work and if they come in drunk or hungover. And adults, as we all know, most emphatically CAN’T do whatever we want, that being the fantasy of childhood.

    So, yes, let’s treat college students like adults. They’ll hate that!

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Gene, I’m not sure anymore: Is this a post, or an ad? :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Gene, I’m not sure anymore: Is this a post, or an ad? :)

  • DonS

    A big part of the problem is our societal attitude that college is a “right” for everyone, and that everyone should go. A lot of people are in college that simply shouldn’t be there. As a result, the learning environment is diluted, classes are “dumbed down”, grades are inflated, campus behavior worsens, and everyone learns and accomplishes less.

    Rigid entrance exams, designed to ensure that only students who were truly academically qualified were in attendance would assist in changing campus culture. Academics would be much more rigid so that gifted students couldn’t slide by with 12 hours of studying a week. Minimizing idle time in favor of studies would eliminate most of the current problems. Those not studying would quickly flunk out and be removed. Were we to once again offer rigorous education in the trades, a lot of these misplaced college students would find their fulfillment and settle down to be adults.

    Ahh, but I dream. The higher education lobby, addicted to its allotment of billions of taxpayer dollars every year, and tuitions rising at twice the rate of inflation, would fight such common sense to the death.

  • DonS

    A big part of the problem is our societal attitude that college is a “right” for everyone, and that everyone should go. A lot of people are in college that simply shouldn’t be there. As a result, the learning environment is diluted, classes are “dumbed down”, grades are inflated, campus behavior worsens, and everyone learns and accomplishes less.

    Rigid entrance exams, designed to ensure that only students who were truly academically qualified were in attendance would assist in changing campus culture. Academics would be much more rigid so that gifted students couldn’t slide by with 12 hours of studying a week. Minimizing idle time in favor of studies would eliminate most of the current problems. Those not studying would quickly flunk out and be removed. Were we to once again offer rigorous education in the trades, a lot of these misplaced college students would find their fulfillment and settle down to be adults.

    Ahh, but I dream. The higher education lobby, addicted to its allotment of billions of taxpayer dollars every year, and tuitions rising at twice the rate of inflation, would fight such common sense to the death.

  • JDB

    I know that it has been a long time since I was in college, but this description seems to be a case of painting with a broad brush. Is there a portion of college students who resemble the description given? I’m sure that there is. As noted by others, it has always been there. It was there when I was in school as well. But really, what percent are living that way? Is college a place where one needs to be careful of the “friends” he or she keeps? Of course. But let’s keep some perspective. The party- goers are only one segment [albeit a visible one] of the university. Is it a problem? Yes. Do some universities have a greater problem in this area? Yes. Do we need to find ways to limit it? Sure. Yet, I’ve known too many young people who have gone to college who weren’t involved to excess, but were there to work hard and get on to a productive career. It can be done, and I suspect that it is done by most.

  • JDB

    I know that it has been a long time since I was in college, but this description seems to be a case of painting with a broad brush. Is there a portion of college students who resemble the description given? I’m sure that there is. As noted by others, it has always been there. It was there when I was in school as well. But really, what percent are living that way? Is college a place where one needs to be careful of the “friends” he or she keeps? Of course. But let’s keep some perspective. The party- goers are only one segment [albeit a visible one] of the university. Is it a problem? Yes. Do some universities have a greater problem in this area? Yes. Do we need to find ways to limit it? Sure. Yet, I’ve known too many young people who have gone to college who weren’t involved to excess, but were there to work hard and get on to a productive career. It can be done, and I suspect that it is done by most.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Are we complaining about the infantalization of college students, or about their drinking and having sex?

    Because while the latter are more easily decried as morally deplorable, I seem to recall in my time at college that even the “good kids” could behave pretty childishly, also being free from the consequences of the Real World.

    I mean, not a few college students have laughably lax ideas of appropriate attire, with pajamas — or at least pajama bottoms — especially popular among young ladies (at least back in the day) while attending class.

    There was one guy at Rice who wore a robe most of the time. When I asked him why, he said “Because when else will I be able to get away with this but at college?” Of course, wearing a robe is merely sartorially questionable, not morally objectionable as such. But Mr. Robe was equally protected from the consequences of his actions as were all the kids getting drunk on Thursday night.

    Plenty of kids I knew from Campus Crusade made poor choices about putting off work, staying up late, sleeping through class, and so on — and I was one of them.

    Point being, by focusing on just these “bad” behaviors, we may be missing the larger issue.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Are we complaining about the infantalization of college students, or about their drinking and having sex?

    Because while the latter are more easily decried as morally deplorable, I seem to recall in my time at college that even the “good kids” could behave pretty childishly, also being free from the consequences of the Real World.

    I mean, not a few college students have laughably lax ideas of appropriate attire, with pajamas — or at least pajama bottoms — especially popular among young ladies (at least back in the day) while attending class.

    There was one guy at Rice who wore a robe most of the time. When I asked him why, he said “Because when else will I be able to get away with this but at college?” Of course, wearing a robe is merely sartorially questionable, not morally objectionable as such. But Mr. Robe was equally protected from the consequences of his actions as were all the kids getting drunk on Thursday night.

    Plenty of kids I knew from Campus Crusade made poor choices about putting off work, staying up late, sleeping through class, and so on — and I was one of them.

    Point being, by focusing on just these “bad” behaviors, we may be missing the larger issue.

  • #4 Kitty

    My son is a sophomore in college. And he reports that even those who avoid the excesses of drinking, carousing, and the like are challenged with a distraction that my generation never faced; video games. Apparently, students are sacrificing entire semesters for the virtual reality of games like Skyrim .

  • #4 Kitty

    My son is a sophomore in college. And he reports that even those who avoid the excesses of drinking, carousing, and the like are challenged with a distraction that my generation never faced; video games. Apparently, students are sacrificing entire semesters for the virtual reality of games like Skyrim .

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    #4 Kitty (@19), an even better example of what I was talking about (@18). Thanks.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    #4 Kitty (@19), an even better example of what I was talking about (@18). Thanks.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Todd – what is going on, I suspect, is probably what went on since our cave-dwelling days:

    Ug, I have lost all hope for the youth of today. See, just the other day….

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Todd – what is going on, I suspect, is probably what went on since our cave-dwelling days:

    Ug, I have lost all hope for the youth of today. See, just the other day….

  • Joe

    “Are we complaining about the infantalization of college students”

    Yes, this is my complaint and if I could spell infantalization I would have used the word myself. :)

  • Joe

    “Are we complaining about the infantalization of college students”

    Yes, this is my complaint and if I could spell infantalization I would have used the word myself. :)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@22), don’t learn how to spell it from me; I spelled it wrong (@18)!

    The correct spelling is “infantilization”.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe (@22), don’t learn how to spell it from me; I spelled it wrong (@18)!

    The correct spelling is “infantilization”.

  • SKPeterson

    I’ll make the infantile remark that InFantalization would be a great marketing campaign for a certain soda.

  • SKPeterson

    I’ll make the infantile remark that InFantalization would be a great marketing campaign for a certain soda.

  • trotk

    DonS -

    I agree with you that we should not create the impression that everyone should go to college. Apprenticeships would be far more appropriate than college in most disciplines and fields.

    But to link that universality of college attendance to the behavior of the students is to ignore the historical evidence mentioned by many here. When colleges only accepted a small portion of the population, these issues still existed.

    In fact, if we were to evaluate modern universities, I think we would probably find that the students who drink most are those from the most privileged of backgrounds (think fraternities and sororities) – in other words, those who generally score the best on tests and get into colleges the easiest. This is obviously a huge generalization, but I know that the historical evidence justifies it and I would wager a great deal that the modern evidence would also justify it.

  • trotk

    DonS -

    I agree with you that we should not create the impression that everyone should go to college. Apprenticeships would be far more appropriate than college in most disciplines and fields.

    But to link that universality of college attendance to the behavior of the students is to ignore the historical evidence mentioned by many here. When colleges only accepted a small portion of the population, these issues still existed.

    In fact, if we were to evaluate modern universities, I think we would probably find that the students who drink most are those from the most privileged of backgrounds (think fraternities and sororities) – in other words, those who generally score the best on tests and get into colleges the easiest. This is obviously a huge generalization, but I know that the historical evidence justifies it and I would wager a great deal that the modern evidence would also justify it.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Prevent children from taking responsibility for their actions, and you will have 21 year old babies.

    Enforce your children taking responsibility for their actions, and you will have 18 year old adults.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Prevent children from taking responsibility for their actions, and you will have 21 year old babies.

    Enforce your children taking responsibility for their actions, and you will have 18 year old adults.

  • DonS

    trotk@ 25: Well, I guess you would never totally eliminate the problem. But the main thrust of my argument is not to “eliminate the riff raff”. It’s to avoid the dumbing down of academics because you have a good number of students in the classroom that don’t belong there. The lack of rigor creates boredom and far too much free time for the academically capable. A more rigorous curriculum, possible if one doesn’t have to cater their syllabus to non-academic students, will help to minimize bad behavior. This minimization will be further enabled by dismissing students who fail to maintain acceptable grades, under the more rigorous academic system.

    Entitlement mentalities contribute to apathy, which contribute to irresponsible behavior. Humans have an innate need to be challenged, and they generally respond well to it. Too bad most universities no longer offer a challenging academic environment.

  • DonS

    trotk@ 25: Well, I guess you would never totally eliminate the problem. But the main thrust of my argument is not to “eliminate the riff raff”. It’s to avoid the dumbing down of academics because you have a good number of students in the classroom that don’t belong there. The lack of rigor creates boredom and far too much free time for the academically capable. A more rigorous curriculum, possible if one doesn’t have to cater their syllabus to non-academic students, will help to minimize bad behavior. This minimization will be further enabled by dismissing students who fail to maintain acceptable grades, under the more rigorous academic system.

    Entitlement mentalities contribute to apathy, which contribute to irresponsible behavior. Humans have an innate need to be challenged, and they generally respond well to it. Too bad most universities no longer offer a challenging academic environment.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    J Dean – as my previous examples show, history begs to differ.

    And my I offer a prophecy: Should civilization still be around, 10000 years from now, this problem is likely to be still in existence.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    J Dean – as my previous examples show, history begs to differ.

    And my I offer a prophecy: Should civilization still be around, 10000 years from now, this problem is likely to be still in existence.

  • kerner

    None of my children took the conventional route to college (which is not to say that most of them did not go). All of them took at least one year off before college. I think I should be grateful they did. They all seemed to appreciate student adulthood more after functioning as non-student adults for awhile.

  • kerner

    None of my children took the conventional route to college (which is not to say that most of them did not go). All of them took at least one year off before college. I think I should be grateful they did. They all seemed to appreciate student adulthood more after functioning as non-student adults for awhile.

  • formerly just steve

    Right. If we’re talking about 18 year old children who are dropped into college and expected to act like adults, we’re talking about parents who failed their children the previous 18 years. There’s no reason an 18 year old can’t be held to a higher standard. If they can go to the front lines of a battlefield, there’s no reason they can’t be expected to moderate their drinking and keep their genitalia to themselves. Granted, the college students don’t have basic training of a soldier but 18 years is more than enough time for basic life training.

    What’s lacking is not supervision but accountability.

  • formerly just steve

    Right. If we’re talking about 18 year old children who are dropped into college and expected to act like adults, we’re talking about parents who failed their children the previous 18 years. There’s no reason an 18 year old can’t be held to a higher standard. If they can go to the front lines of a battlefield, there’s no reason they can’t be expected to moderate their drinking and keep their genitalia to themselves. Granted, the college students don’t have basic training of a soldier but 18 years is more than enough time for basic life training.

    What’s lacking is not supervision but accountability.

  • Cincinnatus

    Ok, so we’re all agreed that college students constitute adults, with all rights and responsibilities attendant thereto.

    But what about the repeated claim–accurate claim!–that college students have always been (in)famous for general debauchery? Is this something that can be corrected? Or is that too idealistic?

  • Cincinnatus

    Ok, so we’re all agreed that college students constitute adults, with all rights and responsibilities attendant thereto.

    But what about the repeated claim–accurate claim!–that college students have always been (in)famous for general debauchery? Is this something that can be corrected? Or is that too idealistic?

  • formerly just steve

    Still, it is ironic that the permissive feminist ideology that has pervaded the last few decades has made using women as sexual objects quite a bit easier for men who would be so inclined.

  • formerly just steve

    Still, it is ironic that the permissive feminist ideology that has pervaded the last few decades has made using women as sexual objects quite a bit easier for men who would be so inclined.

  • formerly just steve

    Cincinnatus, #31,we can’t say whether it can be corrected without defining what “it” is. General debauchery is a very vague term and meant something quite different 40 years ago than it does today.

  • formerly just steve

    Cincinnatus, #31,we can’t say whether it can be corrected without defining what “it” is. General debauchery is a very vague term and meant something quite different 40 years ago than it does today.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Ah, Cincinnatus, a minority of students will act responsibly. A great many will go through a hooligan phase of one kind or other. Ans ome will completely fall of the wagon. That is human nature, and thus we can expect it to stay.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Ah, Cincinnatus, a minority of students will act responsibly. A great many will go through a hooligan phase of one kind or other. Ans ome will completely fall of the wagon. That is human nature, and thus we can expect it to stay.

  • Grace

    Dorms are no longer male or female, they are mixed. Even going so far as to let couples share a room.

    The moral issue begins long before young people go to college. Middle school and high school are fraught with extremely liberal teachers and counselors. I met a few as a mother, along with those who are supposed to counsel children regarding their future. Sex wasn’t looked down upon, it was expected among adolescents. One such person even had the nerve to use the “f” word in front of my child, I corrected her, and made clear we didn’t use that language. She was angry, that I wouldn’t back down, but challenged her authority, and morals. Needless to say, there was no more interaction with that individual.

    Drinking and drugs are problems that have been around for some time. One of my friends son’s was attending Brown, he decided to really get ripped one night with his friends, and hurled all the furniture out the window. They were expelled for one year.

    Adolescents do these things because they can get away with it. If they couldn’t, most likely they would settle down. A year off before college “WORKING” is excellent. I would even go so far to suggest that attending a community college after that, for one year, living at home enables the young man or woman to ready themselves for more self accountability, and responsibility. It gives parents time to loosen the rules, but yet observe the results.

  • Grace

    Dorms are no longer male or female, they are mixed. Even going so far as to let couples share a room.

    The moral issue begins long before young people go to college. Middle school and high school are fraught with extremely liberal teachers and counselors. I met a few as a mother, along with those who are supposed to counsel children regarding their future. Sex wasn’t looked down upon, it was expected among adolescents. One such person even had the nerve to use the “f” word in front of my child, I corrected her, and made clear we didn’t use that language. She was angry, that I wouldn’t back down, but challenged her authority, and morals. Needless to say, there was no more interaction with that individual.

    Drinking and drugs are problems that have been around for some time. One of my friends son’s was attending Brown, he decided to really get ripped one night with his friends, and hurled all the furniture out the window. They were expelled for one year.

    Adolescents do these things because they can get away with it. If they couldn’t, most likely they would settle down. A year off before college “WORKING” is excellent. I would even go so far to suggest that attending a community college after that, for one year, living at home enables the young man or woman to ready themselves for more self accountability, and responsibility. It gives parents time to loosen the rules, but yet observe the results.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    There are really 2 conversations here. The one is if students are worse now than before, morally speaking. This one is easily debunked. The other is if one can, as a parent, take steps to help them make the right choices when that time comes along. To this one, the answer is yes – the surrender to the debauchery, or all-consuming distractions is not inevitable. The difference between the arguments is the general trend vs the individual.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    There are really 2 conversations here. The one is if students are worse now than before, morally speaking. This one is easily debunked. The other is if one can, as a parent, take steps to help them make the right choices when that time comes along. To this one, the answer is yes – the surrender to the debauchery, or all-consuming distractions is not inevitable. The difference between the arguments is the general trend vs the individual.

  • rlewer

    If students are adults, they should receive adult consequences for their actions. The two go together. In college, they often don’t.

    And, yes, it would be good if students would have to take a year to actually work before going to college.

    On another tack: Isn’t an adult one who supports himself financially and takes total responsibility for all his actions? Would that keep a lot of older people from being classified as adults?

  • rlewer

    If students are adults, they should receive adult consequences for their actions. The two go together. In college, they often don’t.

    And, yes, it would be good if students would have to take a year to actually work before going to college.

    On another tack: Isn’t an adult one who supports himself financially and takes total responsibility for all his actions? Would that keep a lot of older people from being classified as adults?

  • Med Student

    What really doesn’t make sense to me is that 18 year-olds are considered old enough and mature to go to college, vote, marry, sign contracts, and fight wars, but not to buy alcohol. I have no idea if lowering the legal drinking age to 18 would increase or decrease college student drinking rates; but there is something to be said for the idea that by forcing drinking “underground,” it is less likely that students will seek help for friends who drink too much because they’re afraid of getting them in trouble. The college I attended wanted to avoid this problem, so it gave tacit approval to underage drinking as long as it wasn’t done in public spaces on campus or in the designated “substance-free” housing. If a student did violate the standards, they would receive help and counseling if needed, and not just warnings and punishment. There was a balance between respecting the students’ choices as an adult and also giving some guidance as well.

  • Med Student

    What really doesn’t make sense to me is that 18 year-olds are considered old enough and mature to go to college, vote, marry, sign contracts, and fight wars, but not to buy alcohol. I have no idea if lowering the legal drinking age to 18 would increase or decrease college student drinking rates; but there is something to be said for the idea that by forcing drinking “underground,” it is less likely that students will seek help for friends who drink too much because they’re afraid of getting them in trouble. The college I attended wanted to avoid this problem, so it gave tacit approval to underage drinking as long as it wasn’t done in public spaces on campus or in the designated “substance-free” housing. If a student did violate the standards, they would receive help and counseling if needed, and not just warnings and punishment. There was a balance between respecting the students’ choices as an adult and also giving some guidance as well.

  • formerly just steve

    KK, #36, then can you debunk it for me please? In this case, the devil is in the details.

  • formerly just steve

    KK, #36, then can you debunk it for me please? In this case, the devil is in the details.

  • Michael B.

    I think that a lot of talk about college debauchery is greatly exaggerated. I’m not saying that there isn’t a subculture that is like that, but that’s not the culture at large at college. I think all these college movies like Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, and probably a hundred others have really given college a bad name. Due to Hollywood’s influence, you actually have international students asking questions like “Do I have to join a fraternity?” or “Do Americans ever study?” before attending college here because they’ve seen all these movies.

  • Michael B.

    I think that a lot of talk about college debauchery is greatly exaggerated. I’m not saying that there isn’t a subculture that is like that, but that’s not the culture at large at college. I think all these college movies like Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, and probably a hundred others have really given college a bad name. Due to Hollywood’s influence, you actually have international students asking questions like “Do I have to join a fraternity?” or “Do Americans ever study?” before attending college here because they’ve seen all these movies.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    While we’re on the topic of groups of people who, while technically adults, rarely face the consequences of their poor choices as adults should, how about the wealthy?

    I mean, we’ve all read stories about how the wealthy seem to get a special brand of “justice lite” when it comes to drug or alcohol violations. Or how about the way wealthy CEOs, stockholders, or investors are bailed out by government intervention in one form or another?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    While we’re on the topic of groups of people who, while technically adults, rarely face the consequences of their poor choices as adults should, how about the wealthy?

    I mean, we’ve all read stories about how the wealthy seem to get a special brand of “justice lite” when it comes to drug or alcohol violations. Or how about the way wealthy CEOs, stockholders, or investors are bailed out by government intervention in one form or another?

  • Grace

    tODD @ 40

    YOU WROTE: “While we’re on the topic of groups of people who, while technically adults, rarely face the consequences of their poor choices as adults should, how about the wealthy?”

    When you segregate the wealthy, or those who have financial success, you show clearly how little you know. Most young people who come from families, where the parents have been successful business people, doctors, lawyers, and many other careers, don’t tolerate the nonsense that many other parents put up with. They EXPECT good grades, and no nonsense. They have worked to hard to get to the levels they hold, to then put up with drugs, drunken parties and sexual miss-conduct. They also keep a sharper eye on their children. Bad grades = summers of work, perhaps even taking them out of their college, and letting them work, until they have a different attitude. Car privileges are revoked, and allowances are forfeited.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 40

    YOU WROTE: “While we’re on the topic of groups of people who, while technically adults, rarely face the consequences of their poor choices as adults should, how about the wealthy?”

    When you segregate the wealthy, or those who have financial success, you show clearly how little you know. Most young people who come from families, where the parents have been successful business people, doctors, lawyers, and many other careers, don’t tolerate the nonsense that many other parents put up with. They EXPECT good grades, and no nonsense. They have worked to hard to get to the levels they hold, to then put up with drugs, drunken parties and sexual miss-conduct. They also keep a sharper eye on their children. Bad grades = summers of work, perhaps even taking them out of their college, and letting them work, until they have a different attitude. Car privileges are revoked, and allowances are forfeited.

  • rlewer

    Todd,

    You mean like the GM bondholders whose assets were illegally given to the UAW? Stockholders and investors: That would be pension funds, retired people, middle class savers, etc.. When will the “successful” GM union company finish paying the taxpayers back? Off topic anyway.

  • rlewer

    Todd,

    You mean like the GM bondholders whose assets were illegally given to the UAW? Stockholders and investors: That would be pension funds, retired people, middle class savers, etc.. When will the “successful” GM union company finish paying the taxpayers back? Off topic anyway.

  • Grace

    To bad the topic has now been railroaded into CEO’s, stockholders, and GM, which has nothing whatsoever to do with college students.

  • Grace

    To bad the topic has now been railroaded into CEO’s, stockholders, and GM, which has nothing whatsoever to do with college students.

  • P.C.

    Michael B. @39. Never thought I would ever agree to anything you would post but, sure enough, I agree that poor college behavior is greatly exagerated. Good parenting produces good students who then become good parents producing good students.

  • P.C.

    Michael B. @39. Never thought I would ever agree to anything you would post but, sure enough, I agree that poor college behavior is greatly exagerated. Good parenting produces good students who then become good parents producing good students.

  • Robin

    My grandfather grew up in Alabama and farmed cotton. Someone once asked him what he thought could be a cure for the drug problem (this was in the seventies) He laughed and said “a grassy field of cotton.” When you have to work (and hard to make ends meet) there isn’t as much time to stay drunk four days a week. Believe me, I think all people have the inclination to behave in this manner, however, prior to 30 or so years ago teenagers had to man up a bit. It is a lot harder to get into trouble when everything isn’t handed to you. If you attend college, but your parents are NOT paying the whole way including your spending money, you are forced to be more responsible or you starve.
    I teach high school and I am amazed at the students lack of desire for their own freedom. It is shocking that no one is dying to get their drivers license. I thought that was like a rite of passage but, not anymore. They are content bumming a ride with someone and staying home to facebook. They are babies because no one makes them grow up! I recently had a parent send me an email because I wouldn’t let her daughter go to the bathroom at some point during class and the woman told me that she was concerned I was taking her daughters bathroom privileges away from her. I have a friend that is a college professor and she has parents calling her complaining about their child’s grades. I am convinced that parents are hovering but over the wrong things. It is more a hovering ensuring that their “babies” aren’t being mistreated by someone else. It isn’t a hovering in the sense they are concerned that their own child be responsible for his or her own actions.

  • Robin

    My grandfather grew up in Alabama and farmed cotton. Someone once asked him what he thought could be a cure for the drug problem (this was in the seventies) He laughed and said “a grassy field of cotton.” When you have to work (and hard to make ends meet) there isn’t as much time to stay drunk four days a week. Believe me, I think all people have the inclination to behave in this manner, however, prior to 30 or so years ago teenagers had to man up a bit. It is a lot harder to get into trouble when everything isn’t handed to you. If you attend college, but your parents are NOT paying the whole way including your spending money, you are forced to be more responsible or you starve.
    I teach high school and I am amazed at the students lack of desire for their own freedom. It is shocking that no one is dying to get their drivers license. I thought that was like a rite of passage but, not anymore. They are content bumming a ride with someone and staying home to facebook. They are babies because no one makes them grow up! I recently had a parent send me an email because I wouldn’t let her daughter go to the bathroom at some point during class and the woman told me that she was concerned I was taking her daughters bathroom privileges away from her. I have a friend that is a college professor and she has parents calling her complaining about their child’s grades. I am convinced that parents are hovering but over the wrong things. It is more a hovering ensuring that their “babies” aren’t being mistreated by someone else. It isn’t a hovering in the sense they are concerned that their own child be responsible for his or her own actions.

  • Cincinnatus

    I’m sorry, but I teach at a major public university, and claims of college debauchery are most emphatically not exaggerated. Not. at. all.

    That doesn’t mean there aren’t virtuous and moderate students, of course. But trust me. Not exaggerated.

  • Cincinnatus

    I’m sorry, but I teach at a major public university, and claims of college debauchery are most emphatically not exaggerated. Not. at. all.

    That doesn’t mean there aren’t virtuous and moderate students, of course. But trust me. Not exaggerated.

  • Booklover

    The talk of college debauchery is not exaggerated at all. I went to college many years ago, in a rural state, and the drinking was unbelievable. Elevators in the dorms would be stopped on Monday mornings because they were filled with puke. College football games were an excuse to get drunk. Liquor wasn’t allowed, so the students would squirt hard liquor into oranges and carry them into the game. Bongs would be found in many apartments. A boy often spent the night in a girl’s bed, with the uncomfortable roommate right next to them. “Hot-potting” (skinny-dipping in nearby mineral springs) was the thing to do.

    I was young and naive, felt like a fish out of water, and never did fit in with that crowd. I’m assuming it’s worse now.

    This is sort of off-topic. . .but what irks me is that colleges will accept parents’ money for tuition, but they will NOT let the parents see the child’s report card. In that case, they do consider the child an adult. (But they still take the parents’ money.)

  • Booklover

    The talk of college debauchery is not exaggerated at all. I went to college many years ago, in a rural state, and the drinking was unbelievable. Elevators in the dorms would be stopped on Monday mornings because they were filled with puke. College football games were an excuse to get drunk. Liquor wasn’t allowed, so the students would squirt hard liquor into oranges and carry them into the game. Bongs would be found in many apartments. A boy often spent the night in a girl’s bed, with the uncomfortable roommate right next to them. “Hot-potting” (skinny-dipping in nearby mineral springs) was the thing to do.

    I was young and naive, felt like a fish out of water, and never did fit in with that crowd. I’m assuming it’s worse now.

    This is sort of off-topic. . .but what irks me is that colleges will accept parents’ money for tuition, but they will NOT let the parents see the child’s report card. In that case, they do consider the child an adult. (But they still take the parents’ money.)

  • Grace

    Robin @ 45

    “When you have to work (and hard to make ends meet) there isn’t as much time to stay drunk four days a week. Believe me, I think all people have the inclination to behave in this manner, however, prior to 30 or so years ago teenagers had to man up a bit. It is a lot harder to get into trouble when everything isn’t handed to you.”

    You’re wrong to believe such a thing about “ALL PEOPLE have the inclination to behave in this manner” – there is no “all” to it, I know plenty of young people who would never get drunk, much less stay that way for four days. Yes there are drugs and alcohol on the campus of our colleges, but not every young person has “inclination to behave in this manner” – I also have to stand up for a great many kids who do work, nothing is “handed” to them.

    “I teach high school and I am amazed at the students lack of desire for their own freedom. It is shocking that no one is dying to get their drivers license. I thought that was like a rite of passage but, not anymore. They are content bumming a ride with someone and staying home to facebook.

    I don’t know where you live, we live in Southern California. Most ALL the kids here want their drivers license as soon as they turn 16. They work in markets, fast food, coffee shops, shops of all kinds, and any sort of work they can get, to buy a car. It’s hard until they are 16 to get jobs.

    As for Face Book, most kids do have an account, I don’t believe it’s a good thing, but I know one thing, kids aren’t all “bumming a ride” and “staying home to facebook” –

    “I recently had a parent send me an email because I wouldn’t let her daughter go to the bathroom at some point during class and the woman told me that she was concerned I was taking her daughters bathroom privileges away from her.”

    Needing to use the bathroom is not a privilege, it’s a necessity I once witnessed a child in class urinating in their chair, dripping all over the floor, no one laughed we all were so sorry that happened. Girls have periods, often time, needing to use the restroom ASAP, OR male/female having diarrhea, which can’t wait. And you say you wouldn’t let the girl use the bathroom. If that happened to a child of mine, after hearing of the problem go straight to school and talk to the Principal.

    ” I am convinced that parents are hovering but over the wrong things. It is more a hovering ensuring that their “babies” aren’t being mistreated by someone else. It isn’t a hovering in the sense they are concerned that their own child be responsible for his or her own actions.”

    After your “bathroom” comment, I believe you need to rethink your reasons for denying anyone bathroom rights. The “babies” might be the teachers, instead of the student. So you believe it’s the parents fault because their child needs to use the bathroom, or they haven’t gotten their driver’s license yet?

    You may be a high school teacher Robin, but you don’t know what every kid is doing when they reach home, as you stated “They are content bumming a ride with someone and staying home to facebook” – I doubt you live where I do, the kids here are doing homework, some of the best high schools in the state and country are here, that’s why their parents bought homes or rent just to send their kids to these high schools. They are trying very hard to receive scholarships, that means homework. You don’t get a scholarship by playing with your facebook page, nor can you keep an afterschool job.

    The problems arise when kids go off to college, drugs and drinking, and sex. That’s why I posted what I believe to be true @ 35 and 41.

  • Grace

    Robin @ 45

    “When you have to work (and hard to make ends meet) there isn’t as much time to stay drunk four days a week. Believe me, I think all people have the inclination to behave in this manner, however, prior to 30 or so years ago teenagers had to man up a bit. It is a lot harder to get into trouble when everything isn’t handed to you.”

    You’re wrong to believe such a thing about “ALL PEOPLE have the inclination to behave in this manner” – there is no “all” to it, I know plenty of young people who would never get drunk, much less stay that way for four days. Yes there are drugs and alcohol on the campus of our colleges, but not every young person has “inclination to behave in this manner” – I also have to stand up for a great many kids who do work, nothing is “handed” to them.

    “I teach high school and I am amazed at the students lack of desire for their own freedom. It is shocking that no one is dying to get their drivers license. I thought that was like a rite of passage but, not anymore. They are content bumming a ride with someone and staying home to facebook.

    I don’t know where you live, we live in Southern California. Most ALL the kids here want their drivers license as soon as they turn 16. They work in markets, fast food, coffee shops, shops of all kinds, and any sort of work they can get, to buy a car. It’s hard until they are 16 to get jobs.

    As for Face Book, most kids do have an account, I don’t believe it’s a good thing, but I know one thing, kids aren’t all “bumming a ride” and “staying home to facebook” –

    “I recently had a parent send me an email because I wouldn’t let her daughter go to the bathroom at some point during class and the woman told me that she was concerned I was taking her daughters bathroom privileges away from her.”

    Needing to use the bathroom is not a privilege, it’s a necessity I once witnessed a child in class urinating in their chair, dripping all over the floor, no one laughed we all were so sorry that happened. Girls have periods, often time, needing to use the restroom ASAP, OR male/female having diarrhea, which can’t wait. And you say you wouldn’t let the girl use the bathroom. If that happened to a child of mine, after hearing of the problem go straight to school and talk to the Principal.

    ” I am convinced that parents are hovering but over the wrong things. It is more a hovering ensuring that their “babies” aren’t being mistreated by someone else. It isn’t a hovering in the sense they are concerned that their own child be responsible for his or her own actions.”

    After your “bathroom” comment, I believe you need to rethink your reasons for denying anyone bathroom rights. The “babies” might be the teachers, instead of the student. So you believe it’s the parents fault because their child needs to use the bathroom, or they haven’t gotten their driver’s license yet?

    You may be a high school teacher Robin, but you don’t know what every kid is doing when they reach home, as you stated “They are content bumming a ride with someone and staying home to facebook” – I doubt you live where I do, the kids here are doing homework, some of the best high schools in the state and country are here, that’s why their parents bought homes or rent just to send their kids to these high schools. They are trying very hard to receive scholarships, that means homework. You don’t get a scholarship by playing with your facebook page, nor can you keep an afterschool job.

    The problems arise when kids go off to college, drugs and drinking, and sex. That’s why I posted what I believe to be true @ 35 and 41.

  • Grace

    Booklover @ 47

    YOU WROTE: “This is sort of off-topic. . .but what irks me is that colleges will accept parents’ money for tuition, but they will NOT let the parents see the child’s report card. In that case, they do consider the child an adult. (But they still take the parents’ money.)”

    That should never be. I agree with you!

  • Grace

    Booklover @ 47

    YOU WROTE: “This is sort of off-topic. . .but what irks me is that colleges will accept parents’ money for tuition, but they will NOT let the parents see the child’s report card. In that case, they do consider the child an adult. (But they still take the parents’ money.)”

    That should never be. I agree with you!

  • Grace

    Booklover,

    A parent can always suspend the flow of cash until they see the report card within 24 hours of their child receiving it. After a kid pulls the trick of not letting their parents see the results of their financial support, taking away the funds, for the next semester,… I just bet things change real fast, the game would be OVER!

  • Grace

    Booklover,

    A parent can always suspend the flow of cash until they see the report card within 24 hours of their child receiving it. After a kid pulls the trick of not letting their parents see the results of their financial support, taking away the funds, for the next semester,… I just bet things change real fast, the game would be OVER!

  • Robin

    Aghh Grace. You always deliver such long responses. You are right that I don’t know what they are all doing but, I do see trends and I hear them talk and I am sorry but the majority of them, even those with some religious education, have a very odd moral code. I don’t go home with them but I hear them talking about what they do at home and honestly it is quite sad. Many of them have no parental support of any kind. I am sure that is not your case Grace. Based upon your responses here you seem to be someone who has her act together so I am sure your children (if you have any) are top notch because yes those do exist. I guess we should have more parents like you but, we don’t and by the way, most kids who don’t have parents who take a strong stand against experimenting with drugs and alcohol DO partake in that when they are unsupervised i.e. when they go off to college. I have VERY few friends who did not party after their first year of college. Some might be considered alcoholics today.

  • Robin

    Aghh Grace. You always deliver such long responses. You are right that I don’t know what they are all doing but, I do see trends and I hear them talk and I am sorry but the majority of them, even those with some religious education, have a very odd moral code. I don’t go home with them but I hear them talking about what they do at home and honestly it is quite sad. Many of them have no parental support of any kind. I am sure that is not your case Grace. Based upon your responses here you seem to be someone who has her act together so I am sure your children (if you have any) are top notch because yes those do exist. I guess we should have more parents like you but, we don’t and by the way, most kids who don’t have parents who take a strong stand against experimenting with drugs and alcohol DO partake in that when they are unsupervised i.e. when they go off to college. I have VERY few friends who did not party after their first year of college. Some might be considered alcoholics today.

  • Jonathan

    Grace@48: If people are reaching the point that they can’t hold it any longer, they should be running out of the room to the nearest bathroom ASAP. There’s hardly any reason someone should have to use the bathroom in the same class every day. Every teacher I’ve ever heard speak on the issue of bathroom breaks has said that they would rather a student be late to class than get there on time and then subsequently ask to use the restroom. The only *problems* teachers have is when students are clearly leaving the class for non-body-function-related things.

    Sorry, off-topic, but this is pretty straightforward.

  • Jonathan

    Grace@48: If people are reaching the point that they can’t hold it any longer, they should be running out of the room to the nearest bathroom ASAP. There’s hardly any reason someone should have to use the bathroom in the same class every day. Every teacher I’ve ever heard speak on the issue of bathroom breaks has said that they would rather a student be late to class than get there on time and then subsequently ask to use the restroom. The only *problems* teachers have is when students are clearly leaving the class for non-body-function-related things.

    Sorry, off-topic, but this is pretty straightforward.

  • Jonathan

    As a follow up to 51, I must say that a strong factor in likelihood of alcohol abuse is simply parental attitude and stance. I’m honestly not sure how a *legitimately* concerned parent could possibly not notice their kid coming home drunk on the weekends. I’ve never been interested in drinking, but I highly credit my dad for having a simple, straightforward zero-tolerance policy for it. He’s never sat me down and given me a fancy speech or anything, but he’s *repeatedly* reminded me of his expectations and the consequences. If a

  • Jonathan

    As a follow up to 51, I must say that a strong factor in likelihood of alcohol abuse is simply parental attitude and stance. I’m honestly not sure how a *legitimately* concerned parent could possibly not notice their kid coming home drunk on the weekends. I’ve never been interested in drinking, but I highly credit my dad for having a simple, straightforward zero-tolerance policy for it. He’s never sat me down and given me a fancy speech or anything, but he’s *repeatedly* reminded me of his expectations and the consequences. If a

  • Grace

    Robin @ 51

    “You always deliver such long responses. You are right that I don’t know what they are all doing but, I do see trends and I hear them talk and I am sorry but the majority of them, even those with some religious education, have a very odd moral code. I don’t go home with them but I hear them talking about what they do at home and honestly it is quite sad. Many of them have no parental support of any kind.”

    LOL, yeah, I guess I do get windy.

    I was way to hard on you, and your observations, please accept my apoloogy.

    The problems I see right now is drugs. It’s so sad to see young people throwing away their lives over drug use. My husband and myself both see it. There are some who come from good homes, but they still do drugs, no matter how much their parents have cared and loved them. It’s heartbreaking.

    “I guess we should have more parents like you but, we don’t and by the way, most kids who don’t have parents who take a strong stand against experimenting with drugs and alcohol DO partake in that when they are unsupervised i.e. when they go off to college. I have VERY few friends who did not party after their first year of college. Some might be considered alcoholics today.’

    Robin, you’re right about “unsupervised” that’s all too often the case. When both parents are working, or there is a divorce, this is too often the case. If a mother works, it’s up to her, or her husband, to be AVAILABLE at a moments notice to take charge of any situation, that may occure after school hours.

    When we attend reunions, it’s all to obvious to myself and my husband, regarding drinking. I’m always sad when I see my friends drinking before lunch, or brunch, lets just say it’s before 11AM, or before. I love a nice glass of wine before dinner and another with dinner, BUT before 11AM? NO!

  • Grace

    Robin @ 51

    “You always deliver such long responses. You are right that I don’t know what they are all doing but, I do see trends and I hear them talk and I am sorry but the majority of them, even those with some religious education, have a very odd moral code. I don’t go home with them but I hear them talking about what they do at home and honestly it is quite sad. Many of them have no parental support of any kind.”

    LOL, yeah, I guess I do get windy.

    I was way to hard on you, and your observations, please accept my apoloogy.

    The problems I see right now is drugs. It’s so sad to see young people throwing away their lives over drug use. My husband and myself both see it. There are some who come from good homes, but they still do drugs, no matter how much their parents have cared and loved them. It’s heartbreaking.

    “I guess we should have more parents like you but, we don’t and by the way, most kids who don’t have parents who take a strong stand against experimenting with drugs and alcohol DO partake in that when they are unsupervised i.e. when they go off to college. I have VERY few friends who did not party after their first year of college. Some might be considered alcoholics today.’

    Robin, you’re right about “unsupervised” that’s all too often the case. When both parents are working, or there is a divorce, this is too often the case. If a mother works, it’s up to her, or her husband, to be AVAILABLE at a moments notice to take charge of any situation, that may occure after school hours.

    When we attend reunions, it’s all to obvious to myself and my husband, regarding drinking. I’m always sad when I see my friends drinking before lunch, or brunch, lets just say it’s before 11AM, or before. I love a nice glass of wine before dinner and another with dinner, BUT before 11AM? NO!

  • Robin

    Thanks Grace. I should have thought about using the word bum and children in the same sentence. That really isn’t fair of me either.

    @Jonathan, if a child will run in to my room and ask me to go before class starts I ALWAYS say yes. I just don’t count them tardy as long as they give me a heads up. I just can’t deal with interruptions in the middle of class. It is really hard to stop, sign a child out, and then get started again.

  • Robin

    Thanks Grace. I should have thought about using the word bum and children in the same sentence. That really isn’t fair of me either.

    @Jonathan, if a child will run in to my room and ask me to go before class starts I ALWAYS say yes. I just don’t count them tardy as long as they give me a heads up. I just can’t deal with interruptions in the middle of class. It is really hard to stop, sign a child out, and then get started again.

  • Jonathan

    **facepalm** that post was an accident. I wish I could delete posts.
    …parent tolerates moderate drinking (like having a glass of something for dinner, or maybe on special occasions) WITH the parents, so be it. But if a strong stance against drunkenness isn’t carried through for non-supervised settings, you’ve taught your kid nothing. It’s frustrating to think that parents just don’t care what their kids are doing.

    On drugs: In my graduating class alone, we’ve lost two (that I remember) students to drugs. One was heroin, don’t know what the other was. Another student was arrested for dealing heroin (I knew her and was shocked to see her picture online). After all the blowup of people discussing drugs and people and such, I realized that the more time goes by, the healthier and healthier things like marijuana become. There’s a clear mentality amongst people at my school that drugs are fine, just so long as it’s not heroin, cocaine, meth, whatever. I understand the basic prohibition-is-bad arguments of the legalize-pot movement. That one aspect is very valid, even if other reasons make me hesitant to commit to the bandwagon. However, what gets me is the *attitudes* that people have towards drugs in general. It’s like getting high is somehow beneficial and they dismiss all the negative effects (unless it’s those “bad” drugs). I smell the smoke off some people’s jackets all the time, tons of people I know just talk about smoking a bunch, they couldn’t care less who hears, one year for Spanish, a kid came to class clearly high on more than one occasion, and 4/20 day is a very visible and participated in holiday.

    If you look at the percentages of smokers/drinkers, sure, most people are doing the right thing, but that doesn’t make me ANY less annoyed at the high alcohol/ drug use rates. (my high school is about 4000 students)

  • Jonathan

    **facepalm** that post was an accident. I wish I could delete posts.
    …parent tolerates moderate drinking (like having a glass of something for dinner, or maybe on special occasions) WITH the parents, so be it. But if a strong stance against drunkenness isn’t carried through for non-supervised settings, you’ve taught your kid nothing. It’s frustrating to think that parents just don’t care what their kids are doing.

    On drugs: In my graduating class alone, we’ve lost two (that I remember) students to drugs. One was heroin, don’t know what the other was. Another student was arrested for dealing heroin (I knew her and was shocked to see her picture online). After all the blowup of people discussing drugs and people and such, I realized that the more time goes by, the healthier and healthier things like marijuana become. There’s a clear mentality amongst people at my school that drugs are fine, just so long as it’s not heroin, cocaine, meth, whatever. I understand the basic prohibition-is-bad arguments of the legalize-pot movement. That one aspect is very valid, even if other reasons make me hesitant to commit to the bandwagon. However, what gets me is the *attitudes* that people have towards drugs in general. It’s like getting high is somehow beneficial and they dismiss all the negative effects (unless it’s those “bad” drugs). I smell the smoke off some people’s jackets all the time, tons of people I know just talk about smoking a bunch, they couldn’t care less who hears, one year for Spanish, a kid came to class clearly high on more than one occasion, and 4/20 day is a very visible and participated in holiday.

    If you look at the percentages of smokers/drinkers, sure, most people are doing the right thing, but that doesn’t make me ANY less annoyed at the high alcohol/ drug use rates. (my high school is about 4000 students)

  • Jonathan

    I apologize for my horrendous sentence fluency and clarity/focus/coherence. I’m posting these on my phone, so it’s difficult to efficiently reread what I’ve written; I quickly lose focus and create divergent thoughts.

  • Jonathan

    I apologize for my horrendous sentence fluency and clarity/focus/coherence. I’m posting these on my phone, so it’s difficult to efficiently reread what I’ve written; I quickly lose focus and create divergent thoughts.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@41):

    When you segregate the wealthy, or those who have financial success, you show clearly how little you know.

    Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I’m pretty certain large chunks of Scripture also “segregate the wealthy”. So … look into that, perhaps?

    Most young people who come from families, where the parents have been successful business people, doctors, lawyers, and many other careers, don’t tolerate the nonsense that many other parents put up with. They EXPECT good grades, and no nonsense. …

    Ah. I believe you’re doing that thing where you confuse your own narrow experience with everyone else’s life, going so far as to project your particular scenario as somehow indicative of what is normal. Sorry, I went to school in a fairly well-to-do school district, and I went to a fairly prestigious (and only mildly expensive) university, and your description here completely fails to line up with what I saw in either situation.

    Bad grades = summers of work, perhaps even taking them out of their college, and letting them work, until they have a different attitude.

    I mean, bully for you if that’s your experience, but honestly, get out more if you think that’s a normative description of those who are wealthy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@41):

    When you segregate the wealthy, or those who have financial success, you show clearly how little you know.

    Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I’m pretty certain large chunks of Scripture also “segregate the wealthy”. So … look into that, perhaps?

    Most young people who come from families, where the parents have been successful business people, doctors, lawyers, and many other careers, don’t tolerate the nonsense that many other parents put up with. They EXPECT good grades, and no nonsense. …

    Ah. I believe you’re doing that thing where you confuse your own narrow experience with everyone else’s life, going so far as to project your particular scenario as somehow indicative of what is normal. Sorry, I went to school in a fairly well-to-do school district, and I went to a fairly prestigious (and only mildly expensive) university, and your description here completely fails to line up with what I saw in either situation.

    Bad grades = summers of work, perhaps even taking them out of their college, and letting them work, until they have a different attitude.

    I mean, bully for you if that’s your experience, but honestly, get out more if you think that’s a normative description of those who are wealthy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    And I’ll second Cincinnatus’ note (@46). I graduated from college in 1998, and Rice wasn’t exactly considered a party school — at least, not like some of the public schools were. But even so, there was quite a lot of drunkenness and sleeping around back then. It was rather hard to miss.

    And sure, there were plenty of hard-working students who engaged in little to none of that debauchery. But they were definitely not the “mainstream” students. No, those abstaining from alcohol and/or sex were generally considered weird, perhaps even lacking in school spirit (on the alcohol side, at least).

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    And I’ll second Cincinnatus’ note (@46). I graduated from college in 1998, and Rice wasn’t exactly considered a party school — at least, not like some of the public schools were. But even so, there was quite a lot of drunkenness and sleeping around back then. It was rather hard to miss.

    And sure, there were plenty of hard-working students who engaged in little to none of that debauchery. But they were definitely not the “mainstream” students. No, those abstaining from alcohol and/or sex were generally considered weird, perhaps even lacking in school spirit (on the alcohol side, at least).

  • Grace

    Robin and Jonathan

    I believe we, as adults who have observed life as it really is, are sad to see the drug culture, from our youth, and now. Many of us have children are over 20-30 years old, we know what high school and college life were like for them, and for us as well.

    Jonathan, you trying to post from your phone, Robin, you as a teacher putting your heart right out there – it’s tough, we see it, and the drugs keep coming.

    Hearing your stories makes me weep. One very successful guy, with two kids and a wife died from an over-dose of heroin. Not one person in our close group knew he did drugs.

    A woman who belonged to a charity in my area was always raising money, always out there doing more than most. She and her husband were very successful. She was arrested for drugs, even her husband didn’t know. She served a six month sentence or so, and then came home, and from then on needed a nurse attendant. She died not to long ago. None of us knew she did drugs.

    I could relate story after story of drug use, the end is almost always tragic. I don’t believe for a minute you can blame the parents on a routine basis, too many people are prone to follow the wrong path, they will not face the truth, and end up with a drug habit they can’t or won’t give up.

  • Grace

    Robin and Jonathan

    I believe we, as adults who have observed life as it really is, are sad to see the drug culture, from our youth, and now. Many of us have children are over 20-30 years old, we know what high school and college life were like for them, and for us as well.

    Jonathan, you trying to post from your phone, Robin, you as a teacher putting your heart right out there – it’s tough, we see it, and the drugs keep coming.

    Hearing your stories makes me weep. One very successful guy, with two kids and a wife died from an over-dose of heroin. Not one person in our close group knew he did drugs.

    A woman who belonged to a charity in my area was always raising money, always out there doing more than most. She and her husband were very successful. She was arrested for drugs, even her husband didn’t know. She served a six month sentence or so, and then came home, and from then on needed a nurse attendant. She died not to long ago. None of us knew she did drugs.

    I could relate story after story of drug use, the end is almost always tragic. I don’t believe for a minute you can blame the parents on a routine basis, too many people are prone to follow the wrong path, they will not face the truth, and end up with a drug habit they can’t or won’t give up.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    I try very hard to be your friend. Many times I don’t respond to your critique of most all I post.

    You don’t know the work I’ve done, you have no idea where my heart is, what you see, because of what you post is foreign to me.

    The wealthy or poor are not the enemy, the devil is, the one who tempts everyone who will listen.

    Get over your contempt for those who are blessed with wealth, they are the very ones who build hospitals, give enourmous amounts of money to colleges so that those who cannot afford to attend can, because the gave. These same people are the ones who contribute to science, to further research into medicine that will help a child with leukemia, diabetes, and cancer of all types, and rare disease that very few contribute to. Stop digging your heels into the sand, but instead be grateful there are people with money and a heart for those who need it.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    I try very hard to be your friend. Many times I don’t respond to your critique of most all I post.

    You don’t know the work I’ve done, you have no idea where my heart is, what you see, because of what you post is foreign to me.

    The wealthy or poor are not the enemy, the devil is, the one who tempts everyone who will listen.

    Get over your contempt for those who are blessed with wealth, they are the very ones who build hospitals, give enourmous amounts of money to colleges so that those who cannot afford to attend can, because the gave. These same people are the ones who contribute to science, to further research into medicine that will help a child with leukemia, diabetes, and cancer of all types, and rare disease that very few contribute to. Stop digging your heels into the sand, but instead be grateful there are people with money and a heart for those who need it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Could someone explain to me what they mean when they insist that college students should face “adult consequences” for their actions? I agree in theory, but I don’t know what that means, and I’m of the general opinion that adult college students already face consequences for their moral failings.

    There is one obvious exception: it seems to me that universities are all too willing to sweep “date rape” accusations under the rug, Catholic hierarchy style, rather than alerting law enforcement. But a more common example: a student who, like the majority of students at my current university (yes, majority, and I mean it), regularly drinks himself or herself into oblivion is going to face the usual consequences: he won’t be able to attend class regularly (too hungover), his grades may suffer, and he may even end up in the hospital. There’s no way around it, and I don’t see colleges insulating students from such consequences. They’re not doing much to prevent such behavior–but that’s would comport with the ethos of adulthood we want, yes? The university doesn’t tell them what to do in terms of moderate alcohol consumption, and they don’t magically make the consequences disappear.

    Yes, the ethos of university life is surrounded by a veneer of puerility. Immature behavior is immature, of course. And there’s the problem of parents footing the tuition bill (or the federal government: if you think student loans are being used solely for tuition…hahaha), insulating students from the fiscal consequences of their decisions to some extent. But otherwise, I’d like to know what you mean.

  • Cincinnatus

    Could someone explain to me what they mean when they insist that college students should face “adult consequences” for their actions? I agree in theory, but I don’t know what that means, and I’m of the general opinion that adult college students already face consequences for their moral failings.

    There is one obvious exception: it seems to me that universities are all too willing to sweep “date rape” accusations under the rug, Catholic hierarchy style, rather than alerting law enforcement. But a more common example: a student who, like the majority of students at my current university (yes, majority, and I mean it), regularly drinks himself or herself into oblivion is going to face the usual consequences: he won’t be able to attend class regularly (too hungover), his grades may suffer, and he may even end up in the hospital. There’s no way around it, and I don’t see colleges insulating students from such consequences. They’re not doing much to prevent such behavior–but that’s would comport with the ethos of adulthood we want, yes? The university doesn’t tell them what to do in terms of moderate alcohol consumption, and they don’t magically make the consequences disappear.

    Yes, the ethos of university life is surrounded by a veneer of puerility. Immature behavior is immature, of course. And there’s the problem of parents footing the tuition bill (or the federal government: if you think student loans are being used solely for tuition…hahaha), insulating students from the fiscal consequences of their decisions to some extent. But otherwise, I’d like to know what you mean.

  • kerner

    tODD @59, you said:

    “I went to school in a fairly well-to-do school district, and I went to a fairly prestigious (and only mildly expensive) university, and your description here completely fails to line up with what I saw in either situation.”

    I’ve seen a lot of that myself, but Ive seen a lot of poor people too, and my experience is that the only major differences is that the rich can afford better parties and better lawyers. By which I mean that the debauchery of the rich is less a function of their wealth that a function of the opportunities their wealth affords. The poor debauch themselves about as much as thier means allows.

    Grace: “The wealthy or poor are not the enemy, the devil is, the one who tempts everyone who will listen.”

    But we’re not allowed to believe in the devil anymore, because Rick Santorum does. ;)

    Basically, the problem is that colleges are, and are expected to be, not simply institutions of learning but social networks. The “college experience” is why people go to the University of Wisconsin and Rice University. They could get an education at the University of Phoenix on line, or a community college. 18 year olds go to big universies, as opposed to other options, so they can party hard, watch sports, and have sex…oh, and in the process get a “good” education, which is presumably unavailable at small unpretentious instutions or online. It helps strengthen this patern that the places where all the debauchery is available have perpetuated the myth that the education they provide is superior to that provided elsewhere. It also helps that these institutions know what motivates an 18 year old. So they serve up the debauchery because they know what sells.

  • kerner

    tODD @59, you said:

    “I went to school in a fairly well-to-do school district, and I went to a fairly prestigious (and only mildly expensive) university, and your description here completely fails to line up with what I saw in either situation.”

    I’ve seen a lot of that myself, but Ive seen a lot of poor people too, and my experience is that the only major differences is that the rich can afford better parties and better lawyers. By which I mean that the debauchery of the rich is less a function of their wealth that a function of the opportunities their wealth affords. The poor debauch themselves about as much as thier means allows.

    Grace: “The wealthy or poor are not the enemy, the devil is, the one who tempts everyone who will listen.”

    But we’re not allowed to believe in the devil anymore, because Rick Santorum does. ;)

    Basically, the problem is that colleges are, and are expected to be, not simply institutions of learning but social networks. The “college experience” is why people go to the University of Wisconsin and Rice University. They could get an education at the University of Phoenix on line, or a community college. 18 year olds go to big universies, as opposed to other options, so they can party hard, watch sports, and have sex…oh, and in the process get a “good” education, which is presumably unavailable at small unpretentious instutions or online. It helps strengthen this patern that the places where all the debauchery is available have perpetuated the myth that the education they provide is superior to that provided elsewhere. It also helps that these institutions know what motivates an 18 year old. So they serve up the debauchery because they know what sells.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus asked (@63):

    Could someone explain to me what they mean when they insist that college students should face “adult consequences” for their actions? … a student who, like the majority of students at my current university …, regularly drinks himself or herself into oblivion is going to face the usual consequences: he won’t be able to attend class regularly (too hungover), his grades may suffer, and he may even end up in the hospital.

    Actually, the alcohol policies at Rice were, to me, an example of students being protected from the normal consequences of their actions. Sure, you can’t avoid the physiological consequences. And yes, drinking can affect your grades.

    But my understanding was that the “university police” (who were, in their day jobs, also real police officers) were essentially directed by the university to ignore any number of illegal activities on campus (public intoxication, minors in possession) in favor of protecting the safety of students. As long as illegal behavior didn’t cross that line (and there was often a kerfuffle in the student paper on where that line was), the consequences were only whatever you inflicted on yourself.

    Of course, as universities have gotten more and more scared of lawsuits, these winks and nods have been cracked down on more and more. Like how the more-or-less university-sanctioned period of pranks/vandalism during orientation week became more and more subject to bureaucratic approval (i.e. quashing).

    I think you get the idea, though.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus asked (@63):

    Could someone explain to me what they mean when they insist that college students should face “adult consequences” for their actions? … a student who, like the majority of students at my current university …, regularly drinks himself or herself into oblivion is going to face the usual consequences: he won’t be able to attend class regularly (too hungover), his grades may suffer, and he may even end up in the hospital.

    Actually, the alcohol policies at Rice were, to me, an example of students being protected from the normal consequences of their actions. Sure, you can’t avoid the physiological consequences. And yes, drinking can affect your grades.

    But my understanding was that the “university police” (who were, in their day jobs, also real police officers) were essentially directed by the university to ignore any number of illegal activities on campus (public intoxication, minors in possession) in favor of protecting the safety of students. As long as illegal behavior didn’t cross that line (and there was often a kerfuffle in the student paper on where that line was), the consequences were only whatever you inflicted on yourself.

    Of course, as universities have gotten more and more scared of lawsuits, these winks and nods have been cracked down on more and more. Like how the more-or-less university-sanctioned period of pranks/vandalism during orientation week became more and more subject to bureaucratic approval (i.e. quashing).

    I think you get the idea, though.

  • kerner

    tODD:

    “University Police” at a state university are real sworn officers working for the government, and they usually act accordingly, at least sometimes. Which is to say they have a primary purpose of enforcing the law.

    “University Police” at a private university are highly paid security guards, not sworn police officers. Which means their primary purpose is to protect students from harm (including harm their foolish behavior may inflict on themselves) and this is often emphatically NOT enforcing the law.

    Two significantly different vocations using the same name.

  • kerner

    tODD:

    “University Police” at a state university are real sworn officers working for the government, and they usually act accordingly, at least sometimes. Which is to say they have a primary purpose of enforcing the law.

    “University Police” at a private university are highly paid security guards, not sworn police officers. Which means their primary purpose is to protect students from harm (including harm their foolish behavior may inflict on themselves) and this is often emphatically NOT enforcing the law.

    Two significantly different vocations using the same name.

  • Cincinnatus

    kerner and tODD: You both make valid and complementary points. With regards to kerner’s addendum, the University Police here are, in fact, sworn officers of the state, and they do, in fact, pull over non-university patrons for traffic violations on public roads around campus, for example (a fact with which I may or may not be acquainted from personal acquaintance).

    Which still begs the question: what is the complaint here? What are universities et al. omitting in their responsibility to treat their students like adults? As I see it, public university students in particular are treated as adults par excellence: they are left to themselves with almost no supervision–which is exactly the way adult life does and should function. The problem seems almost entirely to reside in parental failure. Most–certainly not all–students are sponging from the largesse either of their parents or of their federally guaranteed student loans. Personally, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the average college student would spend less money and time on booze, drugs, and sex if he or she were required to pay for tuition and rent, not to mention said booze, him/herself. It’s not the universities’ fault that students like to drink and blow all their cash on kegs, handles, weed, and condoms. PHC’s own administrators should know well that a rigid regime of rules prohibiting and punishing alcohol consumption doesn’t preclude drinking by a substantial proportion of the student body.

    As many have noted already, college debauchery is a fact of ancient vintage. But college has also always been the preserve of the independently wealthy, of those who can afford to dedicate their lives to the leisure of scholarship rather than the necessary drudgery of labor. I think the two facts are correlated at the very least. In the past, the independently wealthy in the sense I mean it were few in absolute numbers. Now they’re not. Now, thus, a greater proportion of our youthful population spends at least four years of its life in a state of greater or lesser inebriation.

    Addendum: I don’t deny that there has been, in the past five decades or so, a general decline in mores and moderation in the United States in particular. And the sexual revolution of the ’60s and ’70s is a huge variable in the debauched life on our college campuses. But, again, read up on the rituals of the Skull and Bones club at Yale, for example, if you think our moral plight is unique.

  • Cincinnatus

    kerner and tODD: You both make valid and complementary points. With regards to kerner’s addendum, the University Police here are, in fact, sworn officers of the state, and they do, in fact, pull over non-university patrons for traffic violations on public roads around campus, for example (a fact with which I may or may not be acquainted from personal acquaintance).

    Which still begs the question: what is the complaint here? What are universities et al. omitting in their responsibility to treat their students like adults? As I see it, public university students in particular are treated as adults par excellence: they are left to themselves with almost no supervision–which is exactly the way adult life does and should function. The problem seems almost entirely to reside in parental failure. Most–certainly not all–students are sponging from the largesse either of their parents or of their federally guaranteed student loans. Personally, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that the average college student would spend less money and time on booze, drugs, and sex if he or she were required to pay for tuition and rent, not to mention said booze, him/herself. It’s not the universities’ fault that students like to drink and blow all their cash on kegs, handles, weed, and condoms. PHC’s own administrators should know well that a rigid regime of rules prohibiting and punishing alcohol consumption doesn’t preclude drinking by a substantial proportion of the student body.

    As many have noted already, college debauchery is a fact of ancient vintage. But college has also always been the preserve of the independently wealthy, of those who can afford to dedicate their lives to the leisure of scholarship rather than the necessary drudgery of labor. I think the two facts are correlated at the very least. In the past, the independently wealthy in the sense I mean it were few in absolute numbers. Now they’re not. Now, thus, a greater proportion of our youthful population spends at least four years of its life in a state of greater or lesser inebriation.

    Addendum: I don’t deny that there has been, in the past five decades or so, a general decline in mores and moderation in the United States in particular. And the sexual revolution of the ’60s and ’70s is a huge variable in the debauched life on our college campuses. But, again, read up on the rituals of the Skull and Bones club at Yale, for example, if you think our moral plight is unique.

  • Cincinnatus

    I will say, though, that colleges and universities certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage debauchery among their student bodies, even if only rhetorically. Most universities eagerly distribute condoms (and my college, like many Midwest universities, includes a student union, which is in essence a dispensary for liquor); no prominent universities bother to encourage restraint or, “worse,” abstinence.

    In other words, universities themselves seem to have bought into the notion (more or less true) that “kids will be kids” and thus have thrown out the proverbial baby as well: they don’t even bother to try setting an alternative and elevated tone. I don’t know if that would accomplish anything, but I think it would be more praiseworthy, at least, than actively contributing to the problem.

  • Cincinnatus

    I will say, though, that colleges and universities certainly aren’t doing anything to discourage debauchery among their student bodies, even if only rhetorically. Most universities eagerly distribute condoms (and my college, like many Midwest universities, includes a student union, which is in essence a dispensary for liquor); no prominent universities bother to encourage restraint or, “worse,” abstinence.

    In other words, universities themselves seem to have bought into the notion (more or less true) that “kids will be kids” and thus have thrown out the proverbial baby as well: they don’t even bother to try setting an alternative and elevated tone. I don’t know if that would accomplish anything, but I think it would be more praiseworthy, at least, than actively contributing to the problem.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus:

    You too make some very valid points. On the one hand, college students are treated as adults “par excellence” in the sense that they are afforded all the rights of adults. But on the other hand, students have none of the responsibilities of adults because their livelihood and even the funding for their recreational chemicals and condoms is provided for by their parents and/or the government.

    At the same time, the administration does almost nothing to discourage bad behavior until it develops into some kind of real and serious harm.

    You are no doubt aware of the statistically large numbers of students from your University’s extention, UW-La Crosse, that have been found, dead, in the Mississippi River (which is close to the campus). So many are there that some have suggested that it is the work of a serial killer. But, of course, police investigations have revealed that there is no such killer, unless his name is Jack Daniels or something.

    When all this “kids will be kids” spills over into serious harm, all of a sudden there is a lot of hand wringing. The same is true of “date rape”. Does anybody really thank that there would be so much “date rape” if it weren’t taken for granted that sex should be widely available? And (as I now utterly destroy any chance I may have had for being appointed to the Supreme Court) I am convinced that a great many of the events that go down int the statistics as “date rape” may be examples of buyers’ remorse. I mean, often a drunken co-ed consents to being banged by a drunken frat-boy, and finds it (rather than the empowering sexually ecstatic adventure she expected) to be a degrading and joyless experience. For some, I doubt that it takes much for the sobered up co-ed to convince herself that she never really “consented” to it in the first place.

    I’m not saying that real date rape doesn’t exist. I am merely saying that the line between really miserable, but consentual, sex and date rape is so blurry that it is hard to distinguish them and that there are enough instances of each to make the distinction (based on evidence) that much more difficult.

  • kerner

    Cincinnatus:

    You too make some very valid points. On the one hand, college students are treated as adults “par excellence” in the sense that they are afforded all the rights of adults. But on the other hand, students have none of the responsibilities of adults because their livelihood and even the funding for their recreational chemicals and condoms is provided for by their parents and/or the government.

    At the same time, the administration does almost nothing to discourage bad behavior until it develops into some kind of real and serious harm.

    You are no doubt aware of the statistically large numbers of students from your University’s extention, UW-La Crosse, that have been found, dead, in the Mississippi River (which is close to the campus). So many are there that some have suggested that it is the work of a serial killer. But, of course, police investigations have revealed that there is no such killer, unless his name is Jack Daniels or something.

    When all this “kids will be kids” spills over into serious harm, all of a sudden there is a lot of hand wringing. The same is true of “date rape”. Does anybody really thank that there would be so much “date rape” if it weren’t taken for granted that sex should be widely available? And (as I now utterly destroy any chance I may have had for being appointed to the Supreme Court) I am convinced that a great many of the events that go down int the statistics as “date rape” may be examples of buyers’ remorse. I mean, often a drunken co-ed consents to being banged by a drunken frat-boy, and finds it (rather than the empowering sexually ecstatic adventure she expected) to be a degrading and joyless experience. For some, I doubt that it takes much for the sobered up co-ed to convince herself that she never really “consented” to it in the first place.

    I’m not saying that real date rape doesn’t exist. I am merely saying that the line between really miserable, but consentual, sex and date rape is so blurry that it is hard to distinguish them and that there are enough instances of each to make the distinction (based on evidence) that much more difficult.

  • kerner

    Well, so much for any reputation I may have had for being a sensative male. But, anyone who thinks the “sexual revolution” did women, as a group, any favors is living in a dream world.

  • kerner

    Well, so much for any reputation I may have had for being a sensative male. But, anyone who thinks the “sexual revolution” did women, as a group, any favors is living in a dream world.


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