College does not cause students to lose their faith

Presidential candidate Rick Santorum has been saying that 62% of college students lose their faith by the time they graduate.  Calvin College sociologist Jonathan P. Hill takes a look at the dubious source of that statistic and cites better studies that point to a different conclusion:

We know that some measures of religious belief, and quite a few measures of religious practice, decline as young people move from adolescence to emerging adulthood. In order to decide if blame should be laid at the feet of higher education, we need representative data that follow the religious trajectories of young people as some head off to college and others do not.

And this is precisely what we have. Studies using comparable data from recent cohorts of young people (for example, the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1997, the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, and the National Study of Youth and Religion) have found virtually no overall differences on most measures of identity, practice, and belief between those who head off to college and those who do not. The one exception to this is the consistent finding that college graduates attend religious services more frequently than those who do not graduate from college.

This doesn’t settle the matter, though. As is often the case with social-science findings, there are many exceptions and caveats. And there are some differences in student religious trajectories that appear to depend on the religious affiliation of colleges attended. For example, both evangelical colleges and public institutions tend to curb the decline in church attendance while Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant institutions are more likely to exacerbate it.

Over all, though, this is good news for the faithful. College is clearly not the enemy of religion. Students are not abandoning their faith commitments because of their godless college professors.

via Parsing Santorum’s Statistic on God and College: Looks as if It’s Wrong – Commentary – The Chronicle of Higher Education.

In fact, there is evidence that college graduates actually go to church at a higher rate than those who did not go to college.

HT:  Jackie

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    I like how Todd Friel from Wretched Radio said it: College does not make students lose their faith; it reveals whether or not they had a real faith to begin with.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    I like how Todd Friel from Wretched Radio said it: College does not make students lose their faith; it reveals whether or not they had a real faith to begin with.

  • Steve Billingsley

    J. Dean @ 1
    Very well put.

    There are many college and university campuses that I don’t know that I would want my children to live on, but isn’t that the point? All colleges and universities aren’t the same. Some are quite hostile to religious faith and some aren’t. I would love to see the breakdown of these statistics by individual institution. I think that would be interesting.

  • Steve Billingsley

    J. Dean @ 1
    Very well put.

    There are many college and university campuses that I don’t know that I would want my children to live on, but isn’t that the point? All colleges and universities aren’t the same. Some are quite hostile to religious faith and some aren’t. I would love to see the breakdown of these statistics by individual institution. I think that would be interesting.

  • Michael B.

    The article and Gene are correct in the trivial sense here — If a child goes to college, he’s probably not going to come out an atheist who never goes to church again. Santorum, on the other hand, is right in principle and in the deeper sense. Education is poisonous to religious fundamentalism. If you go to college for 4 years, it’s a lot less likely you’re going to believe statements like “the earth is 6000 years old”, “all non-Christians will burn in hell”, “homosexuality is an abomination”, etc. Yes, many (most?) people are still Christians after college, but not the fundamentalist kind. You can verify this by just looking at statistics concerning any fundamentalist belief, and breakdown by education, like this one (http://www.people-press.org/2009/10/09/majority-continues-to-support-civil-unions/). Or just use your common sense: If you hear someone going on a tirade against homosexuals, do you suppose it’s less or more likely he went to college? Or put it in reverse, if you know somebody’s a champion of gay rights, do you suppose it’s the case or not the case he went to college?

  • Michael B.

    The article and Gene are correct in the trivial sense here — If a child goes to college, he’s probably not going to come out an atheist who never goes to church again. Santorum, on the other hand, is right in principle and in the deeper sense. Education is poisonous to religious fundamentalism. If you go to college for 4 years, it’s a lot less likely you’re going to believe statements like “the earth is 6000 years old”, “all non-Christians will burn in hell”, “homosexuality is an abomination”, etc. Yes, many (most?) people are still Christians after college, but not the fundamentalist kind. You can verify this by just looking at statistics concerning any fundamentalist belief, and breakdown by education, like this one (http://www.people-press.org/2009/10/09/majority-continues-to-support-civil-unions/). Or just use your common sense: If you hear someone going on a tirade against homosexuals, do you suppose it’s less or more likely he went to college? Or put it in reverse, if you know somebody’s a champion of gay rights, do you suppose it’s the case or not the case he went to college?

  • #4 Kitty
  • #4 Kitty
  • WebMonk

    I wish I had more time to check out the study, but from the descriptions it sounds like the study might be falling to the causation/correlation problem. (or at least the conclusions people are drawing from the study are having that problem)

    Do colleges actually have a positive effect on future religious service attendance, or is it instead the case that people who are more likely to attend religious services throughout life also more likely to attend college?

    Anyone who has more time care to answer my question?

  • WebMonk

    I wish I had more time to check out the study, but from the descriptions it sounds like the study might be falling to the causation/correlation problem. (or at least the conclusions people are drawing from the study are having that problem)

    Do colleges actually have a positive effect on future religious service attendance, or is it instead the case that people who are more likely to attend religious services throughout life also more likely to attend college?

    Anyone who has more time care to answer my question?

  • Steve Billingsley

    Web Monk @ 5
    I don’t think there is a simple answer to that (which shows the inadequacy of political sloganeering).

    I think that different colleges have different effects for different people. Some people thrive in certain settings and others don’t. For some students who were raised in a fairly protective setting, going to a more permissive atmosphere forces them to take a good look at their beliefs and only strengthens their convictions. For others it is a real crisis and they may never really recover from it. For others, going to a small religious college that has a pretty protective atmosphere really helps them. And yet that same setting could cause others to really rebel against what they perceive as an overly strict atmosphere.

    Studies like the one reference in this post provide some good information – but I think it is incomplete. I

    I think the best takeaway from this is that college/university in and of itself doesn’t necessarily lead to loss of faith and in fact can be quite helpful to people of faith in some cases.

  • Steve Billingsley

    Web Monk @ 5
    I don’t think there is a simple answer to that (which shows the inadequacy of political sloganeering).

    I think that different colleges have different effects for different people. Some people thrive in certain settings and others don’t. For some students who were raised in a fairly protective setting, going to a more permissive atmosphere forces them to take a good look at their beliefs and only strengthens their convictions. For others it is a real crisis and they may never really recover from it. For others, going to a small religious college that has a pretty protective atmosphere really helps them. And yet that same setting could cause others to really rebel against what they perceive as an overly strict atmosphere.

    Studies like the one reference in this post provide some good information – but I think it is incomplete. I

    I think the best takeaway from this is that college/university in and of itself doesn’t necessarily lead to loss of faith and in fact can be quite helpful to people of faith in some cases.

  • SKPeterson

    Michael B. – You’re over-extrapolating from personal experience. Moreover, I think that much of the “majority” is in favor of not killing homosexuals and recognizing their basic human rights; they’re being polite, but they’re not exactly celebrating homosexuals or hoping all of their kids grow up gay. My experience would be (using your wording) almost the opposite. If I hear someone launching into a tirade in favor of gay rights, they usually are in college or maybe high school, but they never seem to actually graduate or attempt anything remotely like an academically rigorous program of study regardless of the field. When they are not silly bores, they are tiresome boors. And in reverse, if I hear someone champion traditional marriage and the family, they are most often to have at least a bachelors, and often have completed a graduate degree – and not at some backwoods Bible college.

  • SKPeterson

    Michael B. – You’re over-extrapolating from personal experience. Moreover, I think that much of the “majority” is in favor of not killing homosexuals and recognizing their basic human rights; they’re being polite, but they’re not exactly celebrating homosexuals or hoping all of their kids grow up gay. My experience would be (using your wording) almost the opposite. If I hear someone launching into a tirade in favor of gay rights, they usually are in college or maybe high school, but they never seem to actually graduate or attempt anything remotely like an academically rigorous program of study regardless of the field. When they are not silly bores, they are tiresome boors. And in reverse, if I hear someone champion traditional marriage and the family, they are most often to have at least a bachelors, and often have completed a graduate degree – and not at some backwoods Bible college.

  • Dan Kempin

    I don’t know. There are lies and statistics, and I don’t know how you could come up with an accurate percentage, but the media campaign against Santorum aside, his words have a ring of truth.

    I don’t have a study to support it, but the time I spent at a state university was a genuine crucible for my faith. I agree with Michael B, #3, that the academic environment is often hostile and poisonous to Christianity. Someone may still come out of it a professing Christian, but it doesn’t mean that they haven’t been affected. (Or damaged and scarred.) I remember discovering that my freshman composition prof was a lutheran and attended the campus chapel. It was joyous for me, like a harbor in a storm! He then attempted to mentor me in a very winsome way that I was all wrong about abortion and some other basic tenets. It was very disturbing to me.

    I personally saw a high percentage of incoming Christians swallowed up in the permissive college environment, and while some of them came to their senses, I don’t think it was a very salutary experience.

    But that’s just my own experience.

  • Dan Kempin

    I don’t know. There are lies and statistics, and I don’t know how you could come up with an accurate percentage, but the media campaign against Santorum aside, his words have a ring of truth.

    I don’t have a study to support it, but the time I spent at a state university was a genuine crucible for my faith. I agree with Michael B, #3, that the academic environment is often hostile and poisonous to Christianity. Someone may still come out of it a professing Christian, but it doesn’t mean that they haven’t been affected. (Or damaged and scarred.) I remember discovering that my freshman composition prof was a lutheran and attended the campus chapel. It was joyous for me, like a harbor in a storm! He then attempted to mentor me in a very winsome way that I was all wrong about abortion and some other basic tenets. It was very disturbing to me.

    I personally saw a high percentage of incoming Christians swallowed up in the permissive college environment, and while some of them came to their senses, I don’t think it was a very salutary experience.

    But that’s just my own experience.

  • CRB

    If anyone is interested, there’s a pertinent interview on campus ministry on the March 12th Issues Etc. program.

  • CRB

    If anyone is interested, there’s a pertinent interview on campus ministry on the March 12th Issues Etc. program.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    I haven’t seen the studies referenced, but from other studies I have seen on this topic I have noticed two polarities pushing both. We are witnessing the interplay between a strong anti-intellectualism strain in the church and an almost equally strong academic elitism. Depending on which side you read they will either say college is an evil place where kids lose their faith or they will say it is where their faith is refined. Honestly, I think it is just a rehash of the genetics vs. socialization debate.

    The topic at hand is fairly complex. I have witnessed it go all different ways with many different factors involved. In my case it helped that a kind retired couple was willing to pick me up and take me to church when I was a freshman and then when I switched campuses to be welcomed into a good student ministry. Yet, I watched others who had similar upbringing and chances just walk away. I really think we are delving into the crux de theologomina and will never find a satisfactory answer.

    And then I want to laugh every time, somebody like Michael B. goes off. I have ten years of undergraduate and graduate education in biology and theology. I believe in a young earth 6th day creation (not necessarily in an actual age of 6000 yrs), that homosexuality is sinful, and that all who do not believe are condemned. But then, I never thought I was smarter than God.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    I haven’t seen the studies referenced, but from other studies I have seen on this topic I have noticed two polarities pushing both. We are witnessing the interplay between a strong anti-intellectualism strain in the church and an almost equally strong academic elitism. Depending on which side you read they will either say college is an evil place where kids lose their faith or they will say it is where their faith is refined. Honestly, I think it is just a rehash of the genetics vs. socialization debate.

    The topic at hand is fairly complex. I have witnessed it go all different ways with many different factors involved. In my case it helped that a kind retired couple was willing to pick me up and take me to church when I was a freshman and then when I switched campuses to be welcomed into a good student ministry. Yet, I watched others who had similar upbringing and chances just walk away. I really think we are delving into the crux de theologomina and will never find a satisfactory answer.

    And then I want to laugh every time, somebody like Michael B. goes off. I have ten years of undergraduate and graduate education in biology and theology. I believe in a young earth 6th day creation (not necessarily in an actual age of 6000 yrs), that homosexuality is sinful, and that all who do not believe are condemned. But then, I never thought I was smarter than God.

  • –helen

    I can’t match your certified years in school, Dr., but my program was similar and I have done a lot of Continuing Education, formally and informally, with CTS profs. :)

    One of our problems may be that we send our kids to Concordia system, thinking they’ll be “safe” in their Lutheranism. “Wrong” in most cases. :(

    Wherever they go, locate a solid church before they enroll!

  • –helen

    I can’t match your certified years in school, Dr., but my program was similar and I have done a lot of Continuing Education, formally and informally, with CTS profs. :)

    One of our problems may be that we send our kids to Concordia system, thinking they’ll be “safe” in their Lutheranism. “Wrong” in most cases. :(

    Wherever they go, locate a solid church before they enroll!

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @Helen, I would replace “Concordia system” with “Christian” and it is not so much the fault of the college in question. It is the reality that students are students no matter what college they attend. So, I usually recommend to parents that where ever they go get their kids in touch with a good student ministry. St John in Galveston and ULC in College Station made all the difference to me.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @Helen, I would replace “Concordia system” with “Christian” and it is not so much the fault of the college in question. It is the reality that students are students no matter what college they attend. So, I usually recommend to parents that where ever they go get their kids in touch with a good student ministry. St John in Galveston and ULC in College Station made all the difference to me.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 5

    Well, without mining the net for a specific study, it has already been noted that people who hold bachelors degrees are more conservative than those with no degree or who hold advanced degrees. Conservatism isn’t church attendance, of course, but they tend to trend together. What I have seen is that being involved in something social like attending church indicates higher social function. Church attendance correlates with higher social function.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 5

    Well, without mining the net for a specific study, it has already been noted that people who hold bachelors degrees are more conservative than those with no degree or who hold advanced degrees. Conservatism isn’t church attendance, of course, but they tend to trend together. What I have seen is that being involved in something social like attending church indicates higher social function. Church attendance correlates with higher social function.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    I guess none of us really expect a politician to be thoughtful or tell the truth, but anyone with a college level education in math would have to ask some obvious questions, like “did they check for multiple colinearity”? On the theological side, if we believe in God’s effectual calling we really aren’t scared of colleges or any other information brokering system (really, it makes more sense to fear the internet than college, but I digress). The sheep here God’s voice, and know and follow him.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    I guess none of us really expect a politician to be thoughtful or tell the truth, but anyone with a college level education in math would have to ask some obvious questions, like “did they check for multiple colinearity”? On the theological side, if we believe in God’s effectual calling we really aren’t scared of colleges or any other information brokering system (really, it makes more sense to fear the internet than college, but I digress). The sheep here God’s voice, and know and follow him.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Michael B, oh Michael B (@3)! Are you ever going to come back and respond to your critics here? How long will we wait?

    Because your thesis statement:

    Education is poisonous to religious fundamentalism.

    is sorely unsupported here. Surely someone with your intellect can tell that. I wonder, is education also poisonous to those given to logical fallacies?

    Because I’d think that, at the least, you would have to point to a study showing what people thought before and after college, in order to demonstrate that it’s not merely a selection bias of who goes to college.

    There’s also the more subtle point that, even given that, what you’d really be demonstrating is that college is “poisonous to religious fundamentalism”. By which, yes, I mean to take a swipe at the educational capacities of modern colleges.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Michael B, oh Michael B (@3)! Are you ever going to come back and respond to your critics here? How long will we wait?

    Because your thesis statement:

    Education is poisonous to religious fundamentalism.

    is sorely unsupported here. Surely someone with your intellect can tell that. I wonder, is education also poisonous to those given to logical fallacies?

    Because I’d think that, at the least, you would have to point to a study showing what people thought before and after college, in order to demonstrate that it’s not merely a selection bias of who goes to college.

    There’s also the more subtle point that, even given that, what you’d really be demonstrating is that college is “poisonous to religious fundamentalism”. By which, yes, I mean to take a swipe at the educational capacities of modern colleges.

  • Jonathan

    I think you’d be hard-pressed to come up with a better conclusion than J. Dean’s @1. People can respond in wildly different ways to the huge variety of college situations. As a senior in high school right now, I can’t speak for college, but high school seems to have the same kind of sometimes-destructive/sometimes-constructive conundrum. My high school is really big, and we’ve got plenty of money, so our students are very diverse and active in a lot of different causes on all sides. I’d say the school’s mission to prepare everyone for college is largely successful (with all the pros and cons that come with this kind of ambitious endeavor).
    I’ve seen countless people I know reject some or all of the faith they held all the way up through middle school. All of our science teachers are strong advocates of all the latest secular theories (unadulterated neo-Darwinism and the like), our history teachers are all liberal, and a math teacher has published a successful book on atheism (you may find his name if you Google “the friendly atheist”, but I’m not sure). Now perhaps this is similar to a lot of high schools, but I know firsthand that the curriculum has been directly responsible for a lot of my friends’ rejections of their faith. One kid used to be the most dedicated Christian I knew. This kid wasn’t even allowed to read the Harry Potter books. Had I known about Legalism at the time, that may have prompted me to talk to him about it more, but I think this really shows how the original state of your faith may be the biggest factor of losing it all or not in college/high school. The ELCA is big here, Catholicism is big here, but both of these denominations’ churches are either weak/soft on theology, or they’re just really liberal (which I guess is the same thing). There is also a visible presence of Islam, Hinduism, and atheism (the Muslim Student Association is more active than the random Christian meetings that are held a few times a year). I’m also suspicious that of those students claiming to “believe in God,” a sizeable portion do not claim *any* religion’s label and instead make up random characteristics of their god.

    Oops… 97% off topic and 100% more words than I needed? I’ll end it there.

  • Jonathan

    I think you’d be hard-pressed to come up with a better conclusion than J. Dean’s @1. People can respond in wildly different ways to the huge variety of college situations. As a senior in high school right now, I can’t speak for college, but high school seems to have the same kind of sometimes-destructive/sometimes-constructive conundrum. My high school is really big, and we’ve got plenty of money, so our students are very diverse and active in a lot of different causes on all sides. I’d say the school’s mission to prepare everyone for college is largely successful (with all the pros and cons that come with this kind of ambitious endeavor).
    I’ve seen countless people I know reject some or all of the faith they held all the way up through middle school. All of our science teachers are strong advocates of all the latest secular theories (unadulterated neo-Darwinism and the like), our history teachers are all liberal, and a math teacher has published a successful book on atheism (you may find his name if you Google “the friendly atheist”, but I’m not sure). Now perhaps this is similar to a lot of high schools, but I know firsthand that the curriculum has been directly responsible for a lot of my friends’ rejections of their faith. One kid used to be the most dedicated Christian I knew. This kid wasn’t even allowed to read the Harry Potter books. Had I known about Legalism at the time, that may have prompted me to talk to him about it more, but I think this really shows how the original state of your faith may be the biggest factor of losing it all or not in college/high school. The ELCA is big here, Catholicism is big here, but both of these denominations’ churches are either weak/soft on theology, or they’re just really liberal (which I guess is the same thing). There is also a visible presence of Islam, Hinduism, and atheism (the Muslim Student Association is more active than the random Christian meetings that are held a few times a year). I’m also suspicious that of those students claiming to “believe in God,” a sizeable portion do not claim *any* religion’s label and instead make up random characteristics of their god.

    Oops… 97% off topic and 100% more words than I needed? I’ll end it there.

  • Bob

    Knowledge is the enemy of religion.

  • Bob

    Knowledge is the enemy of religion.

  • Bob

    Religion depends on ignorance.

  • Bob

    Religion depends on ignorance.

  • Jonathan

    And which knowledge would you be talking about? Christianity would be a lot better off if more people had more real knowledge about science and history. If the curriculum facilitated the teaching of *science* instead of *Atheism with a little science mixed in*, you wouldn’t have so many college Atheist converts. Of all the worldviews and philosophies, only one can be true if they’re all contradictory, so by definition, all other religions, Atheism included, must rely on some sort of ignorance and/or lies to continue. Yes, God and faith transcends what our reason can fathom, but if the Christian faith wasn’t *also* scientifically and historically valid, Christianity wouldn’t make much sense. It’s pretty convenient that a Christian worldview turns out to be a whole lot more logically consistent than anything the secularists have come up with.

  • Jonathan

    And which knowledge would you be talking about? Christianity would be a lot better off if more people had more real knowledge about science and history. If the curriculum facilitated the teaching of *science* instead of *Atheism with a little science mixed in*, you wouldn’t have so many college Atheist converts. Of all the worldviews and philosophies, only one can be true if they’re all contradictory, so by definition, all other religions, Atheism included, must rely on some sort of ignorance and/or lies to continue. Yes, God and faith transcends what our reason can fathom, but if the Christian faith wasn’t *also* scientifically and historically valid, Christianity wouldn’t make much sense. It’s pretty convenient that a Christian worldview turns out to be a whole lot more logically consistent than anything the secularists have come up with.

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  • John C

    I thought Christianity was a matter of faith not science, Jonathon.
    A Christian worldview is only logically consistant if you’re a Christian. An athiest takes a Christian’s scepticism about other Gods one step further.

  • John C

    I thought Christianity was a matter of faith not science, Jonathon.
    A Christian worldview is only logically consistant if you’re a Christian. An athiest takes a Christian’s scepticism about other Gods one step further.

  • Dan Kempin

    Jonathan,

    You write very well for a high school student. I am impressed that you are joining the conversation here.

  • Dan Kempin

    Jonathan,

    You write very well for a high school student. I am impressed that you are joining the conversation here.

  • http://Dietzign.com Marcia

    My family may be a good example. My daughter went to state university for her undergrad, the University of London for her masters and returned to the same university for her phd. She was a strong believer and missionary until recently when she has announced she has turned from her faith, and is acting accordingly. My son was a rebellious teenager, goes to a private conservative college and his faith has gotten stronger by the year. At the same time, I returned to a private art school for my MFA , the daily anti Christian views, teaching, and comments, have shaken my 30 year plus walk with the Lord. (shaken, not distroyed!) I can only imagine how hard it would be for a young Christian. To think that college is neuteral and tolerant to all religions is nieve. One thing for sure, college is a refining fire. Statistically speaking, in my family, one out of three got burned.

  • http://Dietzign.com Marcia

    My family may be a good example. My daughter went to state university for her undergrad, the University of London for her masters and returned to the same university for her phd. She was a strong believer and missionary until recently when she has announced she has turned from her faith, and is acting accordingly. My son was a rebellious teenager, goes to a private conservative college and his faith has gotten stronger by the year. At the same time, I returned to a private art school for my MFA , the daily anti Christian views, teaching, and comments, have shaken my 30 year plus walk with the Lord. (shaken, not distroyed!) I can only imagine how hard it would be for a young Christian. To think that college is neuteral and tolerant to all religions is nieve. One thing for sure, college is a refining fire. Statistically speaking, in my family, one out of three got burned.

  • Christina

    “Education is poisonous to religious fundamentalism.”

    I agree. As a senior in college who recently became became an atheist after a year-long investigation of my intellectual doubts, this statement could not be more true for me. I didn’t just stop at apologetics books; I looked at the evidence objectively and critically from all sides. Looking back, I’m so glad I went on that search for truth. Living a life of reason is so much more satisfying than living a life of faith (especially when it comes to decision-making). :)

  • Christina

    “Education is poisonous to religious fundamentalism.”

    I agree. As a senior in college who recently became became an atheist after a year-long investigation of my intellectual doubts, this statement could not be more true for me. I didn’t just stop at apologetics books; I looked at the evidence objectively and critically from all sides. Looking back, I’m so glad I went on that search for truth. Living a life of reason is so much more satisfying than living a life of faith (especially when it comes to decision-making). :)

  • JonathanH

    Awesome. More reason vs. faith crap. If people didn’t have evidence and reasons for having faith, they obviously have no faith at all! Faith is empty and useless and void without an object. You can’t say “I have faith.” Everyone has faith in *some object.* Putting my faith in a real man who said He is God, and then raised Himself after dying, is, all things considered, probably a better bet than clinging to myself.

    As a man of reason, I like to look at history and logic and science. And this Jesus guy, well, it takes quite a lot of effort to ignore his presence in our reality. Christianity would be pretty stupid if there was no real, PHYSICAL, evidence for it.
    Just look at some of the beliefs of certain atheistic scientists. What do they have faith in? Oftentimes things with no evidence whatsoever. No real documentation. Aliens, statistically impossible scenarios, unobserved events, etc.

  • JonathanH

    Awesome. More reason vs. faith crap. If people didn’t have evidence and reasons for having faith, they obviously have no faith at all! Faith is empty and useless and void without an object. You can’t say “I have faith.” Everyone has faith in *some object.* Putting my faith in a real man who said He is God, and then raised Himself after dying, is, all things considered, probably a better bet than clinging to myself.

    As a man of reason, I like to look at history and logic and science. And this Jesus guy, well, it takes quite a lot of effort to ignore his presence in our reality. Christianity would be pretty stupid if there was no real, PHYSICAL, evidence for it.
    Just look at some of the beliefs of certain atheistic scientists. What do they have faith in? Oftentimes things with no evidence whatsoever. No real documentation. Aliens, statistically impossible scenarios, unobserved events, etc.

  • Christina

    I have faith in my ability to love others, believers and nonbelievers alike, simply because they are human and not because a deity tells me too. So I guess that is my “faith,” if you insist that “everyone has to have faith in something.”

    “Christianity would be pretty stupid if there were no real, PHYSICAL, evidence for it.”

    ^You pretty much shot yourself in the foot with that one.

  • Christina

    I have faith in my ability to love others, believers and nonbelievers alike, simply because they are human and not because a deity tells me too. So I guess that is my “faith,” if you insist that “everyone has to have faith in something.”

    “Christianity would be pretty stupid if there were no real, PHYSICAL, evidence for it.”

    ^You pretty much shot yourself in the foot with that one.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003407225424 Olet

    Impossible to please God wihotut faith for The Work of God is to believe in The One who was Sent and Sanctified for Justification comes by grace and faith as fruits of The Spirit Poured out on all peoples everywhere.For those who bear these fruits in the ingathering sharings,there is no justification by law’ of lesser of the darkness that rules’ the night’. No confidence is to found in the flesh is Paul, for one was not to eat the flesh of certain animals as the food for My Words are Spirit and Truth.Bread of idolness is written and do nothing’ Egypt as worth less’.For how will you’ believe if you’ do nothing’ to gain honor and love with God but receive the praise and acceptance of each other for those who receive You receive Me? For those that are for Me are not against Me, God With Us. Therefore, Blessed are you when peoples say falsely for My sake for Great is the reward as with Solomon whose wisdom and love was placed in the testings with all sorts of difficult questions. Easier for the Camel to be bathed by The Prophet and for the Locusts Honey to be eaten in Prophecy, than for the rich, for to whom much was given, much more will be required in the next set of classes and tests.These swallow the camels for others is written in straining the plagues of Moses.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003407225424 Olet

    Impossible to please God wihotut faith for The Work of God is to believe in The One who was Sent and Sanctified for Justification comes by grace and faith as fruits of The Spirit Poured out on all peoples everywhere.For those who bear these fruits in the ingathering sharings,there is no justification by law’ of lesser of the darkness that rules’ the night’. No confidence is to found in the flesh is Paul, for one was not to eat the flesh of certain animals as the food for My Words are Spirit and Truth.Bread of idolness is written and do nothing’ Egypt as worth less’.For how will you’ believe if you’ do nothing’ to gain honor and love with God but receive the praise and acceptance of each other for those who receive You receive Me? For those that are for Me are not against Me, God With Us. Therefore, Blessed are you when peoples say falsely for My sake for Great is the reward as with Solomon whose wisdom and love was placed in the testings with all sorts of difficult questions. Easier for the Camel to be bathed by The Prophet and for the Locusts Honey to be eaten in Prophecy, than for the rich, for to whom much was given, much more will be required in the next set of classes and tests.These swallow the camels for others is written in straining the plagues of Moses.


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