Lying to tell the truth?

Mike Daisey has been performing a one-man-show entitled “The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs” in which he exposes the unsafe working condition in Apple factories in China.  NPR picked up the story and interviewed Daisey on “This American Life” about what he found out during a visit to one of these Chinese factories.  It turned out that Daisey made up the more dramatic details.  When this information came out, NPR retracted the interview.

Consider this defense of Daisey from tech reporter Joshua Topolsky:

Mike Daisey was lying.

No, he didn’t lie about all of it. He did go to southern China and meet with workers from Foxconn. He was there, all right, but he wasn’t honest about what he’d seen. There were no underage workers he’d spoken with, there was no man with a maimed hand. In one passage of his show, ­Daisey talks about workers who had been poisoned by a gas called n-hexane. That part was true — there had been workers poisoned by this gas at an Apple contractor somewhere in China. But Daisey never spoke to them. Like many of the most upsetting moments in his show, Daisey simply fabricated the encounter.

The lies were so clear and so egregious that after learning the truth, “This American Life” issued a retraction of its report by way of a new show — a show in which host Ira Glass confronted Daisey over the deception.

It’s an uncomfortable listen. As Daisey is called out by Glass, you can hear the hesitation, the panic, and the fear in his voice. He doesn’t offer much in the way of excuses. The main point he drives home is that he felt it was necessary to embellish his story in order to retain the “truth” of the message of his show. He lied to tell the truth, basically.

In some immediate way, this defense rings true. There are many documented cases of worker mistreatment and injuries in Foxconn factories. There have been reports of underage workers. There have been suicides. Some of the most important and honest revelations of these issues have come from Apple itself, which issues a supplier responsibility statement every year detailing both the improvements and problems it’s having with international partners.

But until the radio broadcast Daisey took part in — and many of the follow-up interviews he gave — this problem was never discussed in a such a big, public way. Daisey’s lies inspired honest questions about the gadgets in our pockets. Did he betray the trust of the public and journalists by lying? The answer to this question is easy: Yes. But were the lies necessary?

We have a tendency to tune out the things we don’t like hearing. That is doubly true when money is involved. I’m not suggesting that we didn’t listen when Apple issued its report, and that we didn’t pay attention when the Times published its findings. What I’m saying is that sad songs have a way of sticking with us long after we’ve heard them — and Daisey found a way to tell the sad, human part of this story. To make it catchy enough to stick, even if it was a lie.

via Why Mike Daisey had to lie to tell the truth about Apple – The Washington Post.

So in order to expose abuse of workers he had to make up cases of the abuse of workers.  In order to tell the truth, he had to lie.   Does this make any sense?

It’s true that fiction can tell the truth–a novel can express truths about the human heart, even though its incidents never happened–but, as Sir Philip Sydney has shown, fiction isn’t a lie because it presents itself as imaginary.  A lie, on the other hand, presents itself as truth.  Which is what Mike Daisey did.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Joe

    Despite his rationalization, this man’s lies will make it easier for people to ignore the issue. The story will now be about him, about ethics in documentary-journalism (or whatever he wants to call his craft) and at some point someone will try to do a piece that gets to the truth of the matter and most people will have moved on, no longer caring about what the truth is. This story is only going to get a finite amount of time on the minds of the american public regardless of whether we’re thinking about the working conditions or the lies.

  • Joe

    Despite his rationalization, this man’s lies will make it easier for people to ignore the issue. The story will now be about him, about ethics in documentary-journalism (or whatever he wants to call his craft) and at some point someone will try to do a piece that gets to the truth of the matter and most people will have moved on, no longer caring about what the truth is. This story is only going to get a finite amount of time on the minds of the american public regardless of whether we’re thinking about the working conditions or the lies.

  • Tom Hering

    What about telling someone the truth in order to get the result you want, knowing the person will believe you’re lying to them? I’m thinking of the scene in the movie Little Big Man, where General Custer (Richard Mulligan) asks Jack Crabb (Dustin Hoffman) where he thinks the Indians’ main forces are, and Crabb tells Custer the truth, knowing Custer will think he’s lying, and go get himself massacred.

  • Tom Hering

    What about telling someone the truth in order to get the result you want, knowing the person will believe you’re lying to them? I’m thinking of the scene in the movie Little Big Man, where General Custer (Richard Mulligan) asks Jack Crabb (Dustin Hoffman) where he thinks the Indians’ main forces are, and Crabb tells Custer the truth, knowing Custer will think he’s lying, and go get himself massacred.

  • Med Student

    I tend to agree with Joe – lying makes people ignore the issue once they find out they’ve been lied to. How many people will now assume that there is no worker abuse at all in these factories because what they’ve been told was true was really a lie? It’s to assume that the only reason he lied was because he couldn’t find any true stories to back up his claims of abuse, and therefore it’s just not happening.

  • Med Student

    I tend to agree with Joe – lying makes people ignore the issue once they find out they’ve been lied to. How many people will now assume that there is no worker abuse at all in these factories because what they’ve been told was true was really a lie? It’s to assume that the only reason he lied was because he couldn’t find any true stories to back up his claims of abuse, and therefore it’s just not happening.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    Reminds me of A Million Little Pieces. This seems endemic – and we all know the “embellishing” that occurs during political cycles. We are a culture of liars and skeptics.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com/ John

    Reminds me of A Million Little Pieces. This seems endemic – and we all know the “embellishing” that occurs during political cycles. We are a culture of liars and skeptics.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    What it tells me, is trust no one.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    What it tells me, is trust no one.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Didn’t someone win a Nobel Prize or some other lofty prize for literature that was based on a lie? Something happened in Nicaragua or someplace like that, and the author fabricated it, and the liberals loved the lie anyways.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Didn’t someone win a Nobel Prize or some other lofty prize for literature that was based on a lie? Something happened in Nicaragua or someplace like that, and the author fabricated it, and the liberals loved the lie anyways.

  • Tom Hering

    TUAD @ 6, I can’t find anything like that by Googling for it. But don’t let my failure stop you, in future, from suggesting people you don’t like are guilty of … something. You won’t actually be lying about them, but unfounded suggestions of guilt can be just as damaging.

  • Tom Hering

    TUAD @ 6, I can’t find anything like that by Googling for it. But don’t let my failure stop you, in future, from suggesting people you don’t like are guilty of … something. You won’t actually be lying about them, but unfounded suggestions of guilt can be just as damaging.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Tom Hering @ 7,

    Here’s something for you:

    5 Truths about Liberals.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Tom Hering @ 7,

    Here’s something for you:

    5 Truths about Liberals.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe said (@1):

    this man’s lies will make it easier for people to ignore the issue.

    Probably. But mainly because people want to ignore the issue.

    I’d read several stories about the deplorable conditions at Foxconn well before I ever heard of Mike Daisey. In fact, I only heard of Daisey once his lies came to light. I’d be surprised if Daisey’s tale was the only source other people had for this story.

    And it’s not as if the conditions he described don’t exist. It’s mainly that he lied about his involvement in it, his being there and seeing these things.

    Ah, but that’s enough, isn’t it, for a public more interested in their entertaining gadgets than in what conditions they were produced under? Daisey can be our scapegoat for any lingering fears we had about our own moral culpability as consumers. For the plausible deniability you provide us, Mike Daisey, we thank thee.

    And, for the record, I say this as an owner of a few electronic gadgets.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Joe said (@1):

    this man’s lies will make it easier for people to ignore the issue.

    Probably. But mainly because people want to ignore the issue.

    I’d read several stories about the deplorable conditions at Foxconn well before I ever heard of Mike Daisey. In fact, I only heard of Daisey once his lies came to light. I’d be surprised if Daisey’s tale was the only source other people had for this story.

    And it’s not as if the conditions he described don’t exist. It’s mainly that he lied about his involvement in it, his being there and seeing these things.

    Ah, but that’s enough, isn’t it, for a public more interested in their entertaining gadgets than in what conditions they were produced under? Daisey can be our scapegoat for any lingering fears we had about our own moral culpability as consumers. For the plausible deniability you provide us, Mike Daisey, we thank thee.

    And, for the record, I say this as an owner of a few electronic gadgets.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD, congratulations, you win the Irony Award!

    In a comment on a post about one man’s disdain for the truth in an attempt to push an agenda, you toss off a completely unsubstantiated (and obviously unresearched) allegation that demonstrates a substantial disinterest in facts (@6). Hey, but at least you took a swipe at “the liberals”!

    Way to stand up for the truth, Culture Warrior!

    (Oh, and when called on your ridiculous comment @7, way to dodge and veer off-topic with a link to someone else’s high-quality reasoning!)

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD, congratulations, you win the Irony Award!

    In a comment on a post about one man’s disdain for the truth in an attempt to push an agenda, you toss off a completely unsubstantiated (and obviously unresearched) allegation that demonstrates a substantial disinterest in facts (@6). Hey, but at least you took a swipe at “the liberals”!

    Way to stand up for the truth, Culture Warrior!

    (Oh, and when called on your ridiculous comment @7, way to dodge and veer off-topic with a link to someone else’s high-quality reasoning!)

  • Joe

    tODD @ 9 – “But mainly because people want to ignore the issue.” I completely agree. It provides an excuse – not a good reason – to ignore.

  • Joe

    tODD @ 9 – “But mainly because people want to ignore the issue.” I completely agree. It provides an excuse – not a good reason – to ignore.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Me: “Didn’t someone win a Nobel Prize or some other lofty prize for literature that was based on a lie? Something happened in Nicaragua or someplace like that, and the author fabricated it, and the liberals loved the lie anyways.”

    Liberal Tom Hering: “TUAD @ 6, I can’t find anything like that by Googling for it. But don’t let my failure stop you, in future, from suggesting people you don’t like are guilty of … something. You won’t actually be lying about them, but unfounded suggestions of guilt can be just as damaging.”

    Liberal tODD: “In a comment on a post about one man’s disdain for the truth in an attempt to push an agenda, you toss off a completely unsubstantiated (and obviously unresearched) allegation that demonstrates a substantial disinterest in facts (@6).”

    Here you go liberal Tom Hering and liberal tODD:

    “THE STORY OF RIGOBERTA MENCHU, a Quiche Mayan from Guatemala, whose autobiography catapulted her to international fame, won her the Nobel Peace Prize, and made her an international emblem of the dispossessed indigenous peoples of the Western hemisphere and their attempt to rebel against the oppression of European conquerors, has now been exposed as a political fabrication, a tissue of lies, and one of the greatest intellectual and academic hoaxes of the Twentieth Century.

    During the last decade, Rigoberta Menchu had become a leading icon of the university culture. In one of the more celebrated “breakthroughs” of the multicultural left, a demonstration of left-wing faculty and students at Stanford University, led by the Reverend Jesse Jackson, had chanted “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western cultures got to go!” The target of the chant was Stanfords required curriculum in Western civilization. University officials quickly caved before the demonstrators, and the course title was changed simply to “CIV.” Works by “Third World” (mainly Marxist) authors previously “excluded” were now introduced into the canon of great books as required reading. Chief among these was an autobiography by an indigenous Guatemalan and sometime revolutionary, I, Rigoberta Menchu, which now took its place beside Aristotle, Dante, and Shakespeare as the Stanford students introduction to the world.

    Published in 1982, I, Rigoberta Menchu was actually written by a French leftist, Elisabeth Burgos-Debray, wife of the Marxist, Regis Debray, who provided the “foco strategy” for Che Guevaras failed effort to foment a guerilla war in Bolivia in the 1960s.”

    Read the rest HERE.

    This exemplifies Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith’s blog post title: “Lying to Tell the Truth?”

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Me: “Didn’t someone win a Nobel Prize or some other lofty prize for literature that was based on a lie? Something happened in Nicaragua or someplace like that, and the author fabricated it, and the liberals loved the lie anyways.”

    Liberal Tom Hering: “TUAD @ 6, I can’t find anything like that by Googling for it. But don’t let my failure stop you, in future, from suggesting people you don’t like are guilty of … something. You won’t actually be lying about them, but unfounded suggestions of guilt can be just as damaging.”

    Liberal tODD: “In a comment on a post about one man’s disdain for the truth in an attempt to push an agenda, you toss off a completely unsubstantiated (and obviously unresearched) allegation that demonstrates a substantial disinterest in facts (@6).”

    Here you go liberal Tom Hering and liberal tODD:

    “THE STORY OF RIGOBERTA MENCHU, a Quiche Mayan from Guatemala, whose autobiography catapulted her to international fame, won her the Nobel Peace Prize, and made her an international emblem of the dispossessed indigenous peoples of the Western hemisphere and their attempt to rebel against the oppression of European conquerors, has now been exposed as a political fabrication, a tissue of lies, and one of the greatest intellectual and academic hoaxes of the Twentieth Century.

    During the last decade, Rigoberta Menchu had become a leading icon of the university culture. In one of the more celebrated “breakthroughs” of the multicultural left, a demonstration of left-wing faculty and students at Stanford University, led by the Reverend Jesse Jackson, had chanted “Hey, hey, ho, ho, Western cultures got to go!” The target of the chant was Stanfords required curriculum in Western civilization. University officials quickly caved before the demonstrators, and the course title was changed simply to “CIV.” Works by “Third World” (mainly Marxist) authors previously “excluded” were now introduced into the canon of great books as required reading. Chief among these was an autobiography by an indigenous Guatemalan and sometime revolutionary, I, Rigoberta Menchu, which now took its place beside Aristotle, Dante, and Shakespeare as the Stanford students introduction to the world.

    Published in 1982, I, Rigoberta Menchu was actually written by a French leftist, Elisabeth Burgos-Debray, wife of the Marxist, Regis Debray, who provided the “foco strategy” for Che Guevaras failed effort to foment a guerilla war in Bolivia in the 1960s.”

    Read the rest HERE.

    This exemplifies Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith’s blog post title: “Lying to Tell the Truth?”

  • DonS

    The idea that, because you believe something to be true, it’s OK to embellish the facts surrounding that thing you believe to be true to better draw attention to it, is not new. Sadly, many of the worst offenders have been so-called journalists, who have lost sight of their ethics of reporting stories factually, fully, and objectively, and instead fancy themselves to be idealistic fighters of perceived injustice, having a clear and subjective world view.

    In the modern era, the most egregious example is that of Walter Duranty, New York Times reporter in the Soviet Union of the 1930′s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty He won the 1932 Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the Soviet Union, but his Marxist ideals caused him to seriously misrepresent and minimize the severe famines of that era, to the point where even the NYT later declared his stories to be “some of the worst reporting to appear in this newspaper.” The Dan Rather/CBS reporting on the fabricated documents related to George Bush’s National Guard experience, during the depths of the 2004 campaign was defended on the ridiculous basis that, though the documents were forgeries, it’s OK because we think the story is basically true. Climate scientists have undermined their cause and credibility by lying about and covering up evidence that does not support their theories, rather than honestly reporting the whole truth.

    Unfortunately, Joe @ 1 is right. Whether or not it is a convenience to be able to ignore the actual true story regarding abuses that are occurring in Chinese factories, reporting that in any way embellishes the truth surrounding those abuses, in a misguided effort to bring more attention to them (or to the reporter), is a disservice to those being abused. The lie becomes the story.

  • DonS

    The idea that, because you believe something to be true, it’s OK to embellish the facts surrounding that thing you believe to be true to better draw attention to it, is not new. Sadly, many of the worst offenders have been so-called journalists, who have lost sight of their ethics of reporting stories factually, fully, and objectively, and instead fancy themselves to be idealistic fighters of perceived injustice, having a clear and subjective world view.

    In the modern era, the most egregious example is that of Walter Duranty, New York Times reporter in the Soviet Union of the 1930′s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty He won the 1932 Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the Soviet Union, but his Marxist ideals caused him to seriously misrepresent and minimize the severe famines of that era, to the point where even the NYT later declared his stories to be “some of the worst reporting to appear in this newspaper.” The Dan Rather/CBS reporting on the fabricated documents related to George Bush’s National Guard experience, during the depths of the 2004 campaign was defended on the ridiculous basis that, though the documents were forgeries, it’s OK because we think the story is basically true. Climate scientists have undermined their cause and credibility by lying about and covering up evidence that does not support their theories, rather than honestly reporting the whole truth.

    Unfortunately, Joe @ 1 is right. Whether or not it is a convenience to be able to ignore the actual true story regarding abuses that are occurring in Chinese factories, reporting that in any way embellishes the truth surrounding those abuses, in a misguided effort to bring more attention to them (or to the reporter), is a disservice to those being abused. The lie becomes the story.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@12), my deepest apologies if we forced you to research the basic facts about the thing you mentioned.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@12), my deepest apologies if we forced you to research the basic facts about the thing you mentioned.

  • Jon

    DonS -
    Have conservatives or Republicans ever “embellis[ed] the facts surrounding that thing [they] believe to be true to better draw attention to it”? Can you answer that question without blaming others for making them do it?

  • Jon

    DonS -
    Have conservatives or Republicans ever “embellis[ed] the facts surrounding that thing [they] believe to be true to better draw attention to it”? Can you answer that question without blaming others for making them do it?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith: “So in order to expose abuse of workers he had to make up cases of the abuse of workers. In order to tell the truth, he had to lie. Does this make any sense?”

    To a liberal it makes sense.

    “A lie, on the other hand, presents itself as truth. Which is what Mike Daisey did.”

    Mike Daisey told lies. Mike Daisey is a liar. Thanks Dr. Veith for making this a blog post.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lutheran Culture Warrior Dr. Gene Veith: “So in order to expose abuse of workers he had to make up cases of the abuse of workers. In order to tell the truth, he had to lie. Does this make any sense?”

    To a liberal it makes sense.

    “A lie, on the other hand, presents itself as truth. Which is what Mike Daisey did.”

    Mike Daisey told lies. Mike Daisey is a liar. Thanks Dr. Veith for making this a blog post.

  • DonS

    Jon @ 15: I cited three specific examples. You are free to do the same. Regardless, the larger point is that lying never advances the cause of the liar, once the lie has been uncovered.

  • DonS

    Jon @ 15: I cited three specific examples. You are free to do the same. Regardless, the larger point is that lying never advances the cause of the liar, once the lie has been uncovered.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Regardless, the larger point is that lying never advances the cause of the liar, once the lie has been uncovered.”

    Naive. I wish that was always true.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Regardless, the larger point is that lying never advances the cause of the liar, once the lie has been uncovered.”

    Naive. I wish that was always true.

  • Tom Hering

    TUAD @ 12, I’ll add my apology to Todd’s @ 14, and for the same reason: I’m sorry to make you back up what you say about others. Though even a quick read of Wikipedia’s article on the subject tells me there’s a lot more to the story.

  • Tom Hering

    TUAD @ 12, I’ll add my apology to Todd’s @ 14, and for the same reason: I’m sorry to make you back up what you say about others. Though even a quick read of Wikipedia’s article on the subject tells me there’s a lot more to the story.

  • DonS

    TUAD @ 13: I’m a lot of things, but naive is not one of them. I am, of course, talking about objectively factual lies, not politics. That is a different matter entirely, having as much to do with the desire of the people to be duped as anything else.

  • DonS

    TUAD @ 13: I’m a lot of things, but naive is not one of them. I am, of course, talking about objectively factual lies, not politics. That is a different matter entirely, having as much to do with the desire of the people to be duped as anything else.

  • DonS

    Hmm. @ 13 should be @ 18 in my comment @ 20.

  • DonS

    Hmm. @ 13 should be @ 18 in my comment @ 20.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “That is a different matter entirely, having as much to do with the desire of the people to be duped as anything else.”

    Oh my goodness. That statement gets a standing ovation from this corner in the vast internet universe.

    It’s just too bad that liberals seem to have a greater desire to be duped than other folks.
    ;-)

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “That is a different matter entirely, having as much to do with the desire of the people to be duped as anything else.”

    Oh my goodness. That statement gets a standing ovation from this corner in the vast internet universe.

    It’s just too bad that liberals seem to have a greater desire to be duped than other folks.
    ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    “It’s just too bad that liberals seem to have a greater desire to be duped than other folks.” – TUAD @ 22.

    Huh. We’re talking about a corporation – Apple – that’s always been a darling of artsy, youthful types. Yet it was liberal Ira Glass and liberal NPR who broke the Mike Daisey story. And it’s been liberal activists who’ve been concerned, all along, about American companies exploiting workers overseas. And liberal consumers who’ve boycotted ethically-questionable products from big American corporations.

    But still, it’s liberals who have the greatest desire to be duped.

    Huh.

  • Tom Hering

    “It’s just too bad that liberals seem to have a greater desire to be duped than other folks.” – TUAD @ 22.

    Huh. We’re talking about a corporation – Apple – that’s always been a darling of artsy, youthful types. Yet it was liberal Ira Glass and liberal NPR who broke the Mike Daisey story. And it’s been liberal activists who’ve been concerned, all along, about American companies exploiting workers overseas. And liberal consumers who’ve boycotted ethically-questionable products from big American corporations.

    But still, it’s liberals who have the greatest desire to be duped.

    Huh.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Tom (@23), fine, maybe TUaD’s statements weren’t technically accurate. Maybe they were, in fact, sweepingly broad. Maybe they were garish caricatures — farcical hyperbole, even!

    But that’s not the point. The point is that his statements felt true, didn’t they? Maybe they weren’t, as such, actually true, but didn’t they, you know, feel accurate…ish?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Tom (@23), fine, maybe TUaD’s statements weren’t technically accurate. Maybe they were, in fact, sweepingly broad. Maybe they were garish caricatures — farcical hyperbole, even!

    But that’s not the point. The point is that his statements felt true, didn’t they? Maybe they weren’t, as such, actually true, but didn’t they, you know, feel accurate…ish?

  • Jon

    @17 OK
    In the modern era, the most egregious example is that of George Bush, US president, in the 2000s. He won reelection in ’04 but his capitalist ideals caused him to seriously misrepresent and maximize the threat of Iraq, to the point where even members of his own party declared his stories to be little more than propaganda. Yet tens of thousands died. The McCain VP pick of Sarah Palin, during the depths of the 2008 campaign, was defended on the ridiculous basis that, though Palin was thoroughly clueless, it’s OK because we think the American people want to vote for a hockey mom. Anti-climate change conservatives have undermined their cause and credibility by lying about and covering up evidence that does not support their theories, rather than honestly accepting the whole truth.

  • Jon

    @17 OK
    In the modern era, the most egregious example is that of George Bush, US president, in the 2000s. He won reelection in ’04 but his capitalist ideals caused him to seriously misrepresent and maximize the threat of Iraq, to the point where even members of his own party declared his stories to be little more than propaganda. Yet tens of thousands died. The McCain VP pick of Sarah Palin, during the depths of the 2008 campaign, was defended on the ridiculous basis that, though Palin was thoroughly clueless, it’s OK because we think the American people want to vote for a hockey mom. Anti-climate change conservatives have undermined their cause and credibility by lying about and covering up evidence that does not support their theories, rather than honestly accepting the whole truth.

  • DonS

    That’s what passes for “specific examples” in your world, Jon @ 25? All you’re complaining about is politics.

  • DonS

    That’s what passes for “specific examples” in your world, Jon @ 25? All you’re complaining about is politics.

  • Tom Hering

    Todd @ 24, I guess I’m not in touch with my feelings. Which makes me a failure as a liberal.

    My life sucks.

  • Tom Hering

    Todd @ 24, I guess I’m not in touch with my feelings. Which makes me a failure as a liberal.

    My life sucks.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Todd @ 24, I guess I’m not in touch with my feelings. Which makes me a failure as a liberal.

    My life sucks.”

    Confession is good for the soul.

    Abandon failed liberalism, become a biblical conservative, and your life won’t suck as hard.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    “Todd @ 24, I guess I’m not in touch with my feelings. Which makes me a failure as a liberal.

    My life sucks.”

    Confession is good for the soul.

    Abandon failed liberalism, become a biblical conservative, and your life won’t suck as hard.

  • Jon

    “Abandon failed liberalism, become a biblical conservative, and your life won’t suck as hard.”

    Now THAT’s evangelism. Preach it, brother!

  • Jon

    “Abandon failed liberalism, become a biblical conservative, and your life won’t suck as hard.”

    Now THAT’s evangelism. Preach it, brother!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@28), Tom is a “biblical conservative” — indeed, more so than you are, (with your liberal teachings on baptism, etc.).

    Also, the sense of humor you display here isn’t an exactly an advertisement for the superior life that people of your political stripe allegedly lead.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    TUaD (@28), Tom is a “biblical conservative” — indeed, more so than you are, (with your liberal teachings on baptism, etc.).

    Also, the sense of humor you display here isn’t an exactly an advertisement for the superior life that people of your political stripe allegedly lead.

  • Tom Hering

    Who says I’m not conservative, biblically? Can you cite examples of my liberal theology?

    Oh wait. I see. Biblical and politically conservative are the same thing.

    My bad.

  • Tom Hering

    Who says I’m not conservative, biblically? Can you cite examples of my liberal theology?

    Oh wait. I see. Biblical and politically conservative are the same thing.

    My bad.

  • Joe

    Tom – there is no doubt about your biblical conservatism.

    Note to all political conservatives: please stop pretending that OUR political beliefs are always compelled by our faith.

  • Joe

    Tom – there is no doubt about your biblical conservatism.

    Note to all political conservatives: please stop pretending that OUR political beliefs are always compelled by our faith.