Only churches can be religious

How to restrict religion given the Bill of Right’s protection of the “free exercise” of religion?  Easy, the secularists in power are finding:  Define religion as only what goes on behind the walls of churches.

That’s what the administration has done in its abortion pill/contraceptive mandate in exempting only church congregations, while requiring church-run hospitals and other ministries to provide that coverage free of charge even when they violate their religious convictions.

Now colleges are using the same strategy, as Greg Forster reports:

The Supreme Court declared in 2010 that public universities must permit religious student clubs to select leaders who share their faith. UNC-Greensboro is now getting around this by declaring that a Christian student club isn’t really religious.

On what grounds? It isn’t affiliated with a church.

Other schools are apparently pursuing this strategy as well. Expect to hear more about it.

via An Arm of the North Carolina State Government Says Christianity Isn’t a Religion » First Thoughts | A First Things Blog.

The next step, as in the former Soviet Union:  Religion is restricted to what goes on inside of your head.

 

 

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Michael B.

    If a club wants to get university money and use university resources, it can expect to play by university rules. Same for an organization that gets government money. Or anybody’s money for that matter. When I go into work today, I’m going to have to play by my boss’s rules, since I get money from him.

  • Michael B.

    If a club wants to get university money and use university resources, it can expect to play by university rules. Same for an organization that gets government money. Or anybody’s money for that matter. When I go into work today, I’m going to have to play by my boss’s rules, since I get money from him.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    The left has always been known for their sense of ‘fair play’.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    The left has always been known for their sense of ‘fair play’.

  • Pete

    Michael B. @1 makes a valid point and I’m sure it’s not an issue at all at Grove City College. The government camel’s nose got into the higher education tent (except Grove City and Hillsdale) a long time ago and it sounds like the hind parts are now in.

  • Pete

    Michael B. @1 makes a valid point and I’m sure it’s not an issue at all at Grove City College. The government camel’s nose got into the higher education tent (except Grove City and Hillsdale) a long time ago and it sounds like the hind parts are now in.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    @Michael B.: which is the government’s strategy. Start funding everything so you can control the content. Example: since the provinces fund healthcare they can now force you to wear a seatbelt, tell you where to smoke cigarettes which are taxed at a rate of 80%+, require helmets for bicycle riders, etc., etc.. Same for education. Parents can shut their mouths about curricula, content, and pedagogy because, well, the state foots the bills.

  • http://mark.veenman@gmail.com Mark Veenman

    @Michael B.: which is the government’s strategy. Start funding everything so you can control the content. Example: since the provinces fund healthcare they can now force you to wear a seatbelt, tell you where to smoke cigarettes which are taxed at a rate of 80%+, require helmets for bicycle riders, etc., etc.. Same for education. Parents can shut their mouths about curricula, content, and pedagogy because, well, the state foots the bills.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Mark @ 4: correct. It’s like taking money from the mob-sooner or later, you’ll have to pay that “favor” you owe them.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Mark @ 4: correct. It’s like taking money from the mob-sooner or later, you’ll have to pay that “favor” you owe them.

  • larry

    Mark V. is right.

    Question: Will the government evenutally see the “tax free” status of the church as a form of “funding” and thereby attempt to control content if the church seeks the tax free funding status?

  • larry

    Mark V. is right.

    Question: Will the government evenutally see the “tax free” status of the church as a form of “funding” and thereby attempt to control content if the church seeks the tax free funding status?

  • larry

    It’s beyond a “right” and “left” thing and more a “both”.

    Picking up on Pete and Mark @4. We saw this danger early on in the homeschooling movement. Recall the desire for “vouchers”, pushed by the “well meaning” right. Some did see the danger in it, if the gov. funds via the vouchers, then the next step is “what is your content”.

  • larry

    It’s beyond a “right” and “left” thing and more a “both”.

    Picking up on Pete and Mark @4. We saw this danger early on in the homeschooling movement. Recall the desire for “vouchers”, pushed by the “well meaning” right. Some did see the danger in it, if the gov. funds via the vouchers, then the next step is “what is your content”.

  • Steve Billingsley

    It takes a special kind of stupid and/or disingenuous to classify a Christian club as “not religious”.

    What an Orwellian way to use words. And way to chase a rabbit trail regarding funding and use of university resources. Having access to university (or government) funds doesn’t negate First Amendment rights to free exercise or free association. And anyone who buys into that line of reasoning has already given up on the idea that government is “of the people, for the people, by the people”. I understand that the government often (and I mean often) oversteps its bounds – but just exactly who is the government? If Christians (or any other group) just roll over, pull out of the public square and cede all ground where government funding is involved – directly or indirectly – they are voluntarily moving into a ghetto. And if you think that moving into a ghetto makes you safe from undue government interference – you are just willfully ignorant of history. Christians need to stay in the public square and fight for their space and voice. An ignorant public university administration shouldn’t be enough to intimidate people into wringing their hands about “government money” and shrinking away.

  • Steve Billingsley

    It takes a special kind of stupid and/or disingenuous to classify a Christian club as “not religious”.

    What an Orwellian way to use words. And way to chase a rabbit trail regarding funding and use of university resources. Having access to university (or government) funds doesn’t negate First Amendment rights to free exercise or free association. And anyone who buys into that line of reasoning has already given up on the idea that government is “of the people, for the people, by the people”. I understand that the government often (and I mean often) oversteps its bounds – but just exactly who is the government? If Christians (or any other group) just roll over, pull out of the public square and cede all ground where government funding is involved – directly or indirectly – they are voluntarily moving into a ghetto. And if you think that moving into a ghetto makes you safe from undue government interference – you are just willfully ignorant of history. Christians need to stay in the public square and fight for their space and voice. An ignorant public university administration shouldn’t be enough to intimidate people into wringing their hands about “government money” and shrinking away.

  • Joe

    Larry @ 7 – are you in Wisconsin? Every so often our Republican legislators float the idea of tax credits for materials etc. They mean well but man would that be a bad idea. Thank goodness for the folks at the Wisconsin Parents Association who are very effective at telling them, “No thank you. We simply want to be left alone.”

  • Joe

    Larry @ 7 – are you in Wisconsin? Every so often our Republican legislators float the idea of tax credits for materials etc. They mean well but man would that be a bad idea. Thank goodness for the folks at the Wisconsin Parents Association who are very effective at telling them, “No thank you. We simply want to be left alone.”

  • mikeb

    Michael B. @ 1

    Let me make sure I understand your argument. The University requires students to involuntarily pay an activity fee to the University so that it may provide funding and space for student clubs and associations. Then this same University dares tell students that they cannot have access to those resources, which were taken from the students in the first place, unless the University wants to let them have access according to whatever arbitrary rules the University invents. And you’re OK with that because it’s the University’s money, even though it was confiscated from the very people it is purported to support, and because the University gets to make the rules?

    My guess is you’d not be so forgiving if the University was picking on a Liberal-pet-cause club.

  • mikeb

    Michael B. @ 1

    Let me make sure I understand your argument. The University requires students to involuntarily pay an activity fee to the University so that it may provide funding and space for student clubs and associations. Then this same University dares tell students that they cannot have access to those resources, which were taken from the students in the first place, unless the University wants to let them have access according to whatever arbitrary rules the University invents. And you’re OK with that because it’s the University’s money, even though it was confiscated from the very people it is purported to support, and because the University gets to make the rules?

    My guess is you’d not be so forgiving if the University was picking on a Liberal-pet-cause club.

  • W.B. Picklesworth

    I’ve got an idea. UNC Greensboro gets public largesse and therefore is subject to certain rules. It should be de-funded because it isn’t following the rules (the Constitution) of its funding body. At such point as it takes the 1st Amendment seriously, maybe it could recover its funding.

  • W.B. Picklesworth

    I’ve got an idea. UNC Greensboro gets public largesse and therefore is subject to certain rules. It should be de-funded because it isn’t following the rules (the Constitution) of its funding body. At such point as it takes the 1st Amendment seriously, maybe it could recover its funding.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    It is the University’s money? Hardly, it was my student fees along with the student fees of 50,000 other students.

    I can only speak for my university experience but many of the religious organizations were merely the clubs organized by local churches in order to be able to participate on campus. They were in large part only a paper facade created to appease the administration so they could claim they were using school money to support a church. The reality in a fair number of cases they were churches in their own right. In our case, the Lutheran Student Fellowship was really University Lutheran Chapel church council (sort of ish, ULC maintained no official membership so students didn’t have to change congregation affiliation). I never was sure why they wanted to maintain the facade because they didn’t discriminate against any ministry along as they could meet a few basic requirements which mostly boiled down to are your officers current students and is there a member of faculty willing to sponsor your group.

    I thought University staff and faculty were supposed to be smart. When did the morons take over?

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    It is the University’s money? Hardly, it was my student fees along with the student fees of 50,000 other students.

    I can only speak for my university experience but many of the religious organizations were merely the clubs organized by local churches in order to be able to participate on campus. They were in large part only a paper facade created to appease the administration so they could claim they were using school money to support a church. The reality in a fair number of cases they were churches in their own right. In our case, the Lutheran Student Fellowship was really University Lutheran Chapel church council (sort of ish, ULC maintained no official membership so students didn’t have to change congregation affiliation). I never was sure why they wanted to maintain the facade because they didn’t discriminate against any ministry along as they could meet a few basic requirements which mostly boiled down to are your officers current students and is there a member of faculty willing to sponsor your group.

    I thought University staff and faculty were supposed to be smart. When did the morons take over?

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    should read “so they could claim they were not using…”

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    should read “so they could claim they were not using…”

  • mikeb

    Isn’t it interesting that the same folks who argue that the First Amendment applies only to the Congress and not to the States (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”), that adherence to local customs and decisions need to be respected, now make the reverse argument that states and inferior public institutions cannot infringe on the exercise of religion, that adherence local customs and decisions are out of bounds.

    Its absurd to the tell students that they can have any club they want except a truly religious one. We used to care about free association, free ideas, and respect for others on college campuses. We used to promote tolerance and diversity. I suppose we were so open minded that our brains must have fallen out along the way.

  • mikeb

    Isn’t it interesting that the same folks who argue that the First Amendment applies only to the Congress and not to the States (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”), that adherence to local customs and decisions need to be respected, now make the reverse argument that states and inferior public institutions cannot infringe on the exercise of religion, that adherence local customs and decisions are out of bounds.

    Its absurd to the tell students that they can have any club they want except a truly religious one. We used to care about free association, free ideas, and respect for others on college campuses. We used to promote tolerance and diversity. I suppose we were so open minded that our brains must have fallen out along the way.

  • larry

    Joe,

    No, I’m in KY. I just recall it as a more national issue a few years back before I had kids, then afterward and deciding to HS. I agree completely, let them keep their voucher and stay out of the curriculum.

  • larry

    Joe,

    No, I’m in KY. I just recall it as a more national issue a few years back before I had kids, then afterward and deciding to HS. I agree completely, let them keep their voucher and stay out of the curriculum.

  • formerly just steve

    Worse, still, the idea that a thing is whatever the government says it is. You, of course, have the freedom to say it’s not but then they’ll take your money away.

  • formerly just steve

    Worse, still, the idea that a thing is whatever the government says it is. You, of course, have the freedom to say it’s not but then they’ll take your money away.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Steve Billingsley, #8: “Christians need to stay in the public square and fight for their space and voice.”

    Culture Warrior!

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Steve Billingsley, #8: “Christians need to stay in the public square and fight for their space and voice.”

    Culture Warrior!

  • DonS

    UNC is a state university. UNC’s attempt to define the bounds of free exercise of religion is almost certainly unconstitutional. Their only hope, in accordance with early court rulings in this area, would have been to adopt an “all-comers” policy, stating that it will forbid any student organization, for any reason, from having any leadership standards whatsoever. No university can actually impose such a policy — for one thing, it would kill the Greek system. Another job for public interest law groups which defend individual liberties, I guess. These academics who claim to foment the free exchange of ideas sure have skidded off the rails.

  • DonS

    UNC is a state university. UNC’s attempt to define the bounds of free exercise of religion is almost certainly unconstitutional. Their only hope, in accordance with early court rulings in this area, would have been to adopt an “all-comers” policy, stating that it will forbid any student organization, for any reason, from having any leadership standards whatsoever. No university can actually impose such a policy — for one thing, it would kill the Greek system. Another job for public interest law groups which defend individual liberties, I guess. These academics who claim to foment the free exchange of ideas sure have skidded off the rails.

  • Steve Billingsley

    TUAD @ 17
    It’s funny that arguing for common sense and what is black-letter law equals being a Culture Warrior. But then I again, whenever I read “The Abolition of Man” – I feel like I am reading front page news.

  • –helen

    If a club wants to get university money and use university resources, it can expect to play by university rules.

    Why do you all keep harping on this one!?
    You must have a college education and if you belonged to any campus club, you must know that any financing of it didn’t come “from the university”. It came from your “student activity fees” (which is a nice way of saying that 100% of students pay for the fun of the minority who participate in organizations (especially the ones in student government, who treat themselves very well, off the top of the funds).
    The Christian students pay fees like everyone else. If the school doesn’t want to give them meeting space, let it give them their fees to rent space off campus.

  • Steve Billingsley

    TUAD @ 17
    It’s funny that arguing for common sense and what is black-letter law equals being a Culture Warrior. But then I again, whenever I read “The Abolition of Man” – I feel like I am reading front page news.

  • –helen

    If a club wants to get university money and use university resources, it can expect to play by university rules.

    Why do you all keep harping on this one!?
    You must have a college education and if you belonged to any campus club, you must know that any financing of it didn’t come “from the university”. It came from your “student activity fees” (which is a nice way of saying that 100% of students pay for the fun of the minority who participate in organizations (especially the ones in student government, who treat themselves very well, off the top of the funds).
    The Christian students pay fees like everyone else. If the school doesn’t want to give them meeting space, let it give them their fees to rent space off campus.

  • Cincinnatus

    To be fair, contemporary constitutional jurisprudence roundly refutes the absurd, reductive notion that only “official” churches are religious.

    Which is why another Obama administration is such a dangerous proposition: they have a positively malicious understanding of religious “liberty.” I don’t normally indulge in Obama hysteria–the new boss is the same as the old boss, it seems in most cases–but his administration is truly atrocious on the subject of religion.

    I know, I know, this article wasn’t specifically referencing the Obama admin, etc. . . .

  • Cincinnatus

    To be fair, contemporary constitutional jurisprudence roundly refutes the absurd, reductive notion that only “official” churches are religious.

    Which is why another Obama administration is such a dangerous proposition: they have a positively malicious understanding of religious “liberty.” I don’t normally indulge in Obama hysteria–the new boss is the same as the old boss, it seems in most cases–but his administration is truly atrocious on the subject of religion.

    I know, I know, this article wasn’t specifically referencing the Obama admin, etc. . . .

  • –helen

    I’d like to see somebody take these schools to the Supreme Court then, because in too many places, it’s “ABC: Anybody But Christian”, even on the faculty committees.

    A grad student tells me, “My advisor makes anti Christian remarks. What can I do? I’ve got to live with him in charge for several years.”

  • –helen

    I’d like to see somebody take these schools to the Supreme Court then, because in too many places, it’s “ABC: Anybody But Christian”, even on the faculty committees.

    A grad student tells me, “My advisor makes anti Christian remarks. What can I do? I’ve got to live with him in charge for several years.”

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Helen: “A grad student tells me, “My advisor makes anti Christian remarks. What can I do? I’ve got to live with him in charge for several years.”

    If the grad student wants to graduate with that advisor as his/her advisor, then go in the closet and be silent about being a Christian.

    Otherwise, it’s a big risk, and a large probability that that grad student will not retain that advisor.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Helen: “A grad student tells me, “My advisor makes anti Christian remarks. What can I do? I’ve got to live with him in charge for several years.”

    If the grad student wants to graduate with that advisor as his/her advisor, then go in the closet and be silent about being a Christian.

    Otherwise, it’s a big risk, and a large probability that that grad student will not retain that advisor.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @18 To be fair losing the Greek system would be a plus.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    @18 To be fair losing the Greek system would be a plus.

  • DonS

    LOL @ 24. Agreed, but the toga industry would not agree ;-)

  • DonS

    LOL @ 24. Agreed, but the toga industry would not agree ;-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    A grad student tells me, “My advisor makes anti Christian remarks. What can I do? I’ve got to live with him in charge for several years.”

    Isn’t that a form of harassment and intimidation?

    Prayer in school was eliminated because the teacher in his position of authority could be seen as coercing students in violation of their rights. What about college professors harassing students with derisive and insensitive comments creating a hostile climate for students? How about some sensitivity training for these university staff and teachers?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    A grad student tells me, “My advisor makes anti Christian remarks. What can I do? I’ve got to live with him in charge for several years.”

    Isn’t that a form of harassment and intimidation?

    Prayer in school was eliminated because the teacher in his position of authority could be seen as coercing students in violation of their rights. What about college professors harassing students with derisive and insensitive comments creating a hostile climate for students? How about some sensitivity training for these university staff and teachers?

  • Michael B.

    Repeat until this sets in: “There is no such thing as free money — When money is taken, expect there to be strings attached”. Larry brought up an interesting point: that of homeschooling and private school vouchers, and he is absolutely right. If a Christian school wants to take government money, the school should take it for granted that the day will come when they will have to choose between giving up the government money, or having to teach a class on homosexuals or transgendered people.

    Finally, somebody brought up the case about universities getting government money. Turns out there are strings attached here too. I forget which university, but one didn’t want to allow military recruiters on campus, but that same university wanted the government to fund scholarships for its students…too bad for the university.

  • Michael B.

    Repeat until this sets in: “There is no such thing as free money — When money is taken, expect there to be strings attached”. Larry brought up an interesting point: that of homeschooling and private school vouchers, and he is absolutely right. If a Christian school wants to take government money, the school should take it for granted that the day will come when they will have to choose between giving up the government money, or having to teach a class on homosexuals or transgendered people.

    Finally, somebody brought up the case about universities getting government money. Turns out there are strings attached here too. I forget which university, but one didn’t want to allow military recruiters on campus, but that same university wanted the government to fund scholarships for its students…too bad for the university.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 27

    That university was Harvard, and that is not what happened.

    First, Harvard kicked the Navy ROTC off campus and retained the ability to get taxpayer money. That means that Harvard students could still get federal financial aid despite kicking out the ROTC.

    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/09/opening-day/

    Meanwhile, students at colleges that refuse to discriminate against students based on race cannot get federal financial aid.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsdale_College#Non-discrimination_policy

    So, the politically connected can do as the please. There is one set of rules for us but not for them.

    Another reason I would like to see a more diverse Supreme Court. How about some Protestants or some State U or Christian university grads so that that the court can look more like America?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 27

    That university was Harvard, and that is not what happened.

    First, Harvard kicked the Navy ROTC off campus and retained the ability to get taxpayer money. That means that Harvard students could still get federal financial aid despite kicking out the ROTC.

    http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/09/opening-day/

    Meanwhile, students at colleges that refuse to discriminate against students based on race cannot get federal financial aid.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsdale_College#Non-discrimination_policy

    So, the politically connected can do as the please. There is one set of rules for us but not for them.

    Another reason I would like to see a more diverse Supreme Court. How about some Protestants or some State U or Christian university grads so that that the court can look more like America?

  • Michael B.

    @SG

    There are numerous fine state universities — I attended one. I think the kind of place you mean is something like Liberty “University” founded by Jerry Falwell. Seriously, would you want a federal judge from the David Letterman University?

  • Michael B.

    @SG

    There are numerous fine state universities — I attended one. I think the kind of place you mean is something like Liberty “University” founded by Jerry Falwell. Seriously, would you want a federal judge from the David Letterman University?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” I think the kind of place you mean is something like Liberty “University” founded by Jerry Falwell. Seriously, would you want a federal judge from the David Letterman University?”

    Huh?

    What about SMU? Or TCU? Or Baylor? Or one of the Concordias? Or New Saint Andrews? Or Patrick Henry?

    No offense, but you are sort of parodying yourself with that comment. Liberty U is a fundy Christian College. We all know that. However, most Christian colleges are not fundamentalist. We all know that, too. Seriously, you come off as a crank and self parody when you suggest that Liberty U is typical of Christian colleges.

    FWIW, Liberty U Law school grads pass the University of Virginia bar exam at a higher rate than any other Virginia Law school; 100% Feb. 2011.

    “Liberty is the only Virginia school to achieve the 100 percent rate in the state this year. Washington & Lee was at 90 percent; George Mason, 84.8 percent; University of Virginia, 75 percent; and the College of William & Mary, 73.3 percent”
    http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/liberty-akron-both-report-100-pass-rates-feb-bar-exam

    Since their scholarship is fine, then you are simply bigoted in objecting to them having any representation at all whatever in the judiciary. You simply do not respect the rights of a minority to have a seat at the table or on the bench as one voice among many or several.

    I object to the ideology of those on the judiciary who feel that legal killing of unborn children is legally defensible under the Constitution. They have seats at the table and more seats on the bench than their respective opinions do among our population.

    The idea in the USA is majority rule and minority rights and representation for all. I assume you like that protection when you are the minority, but your comment implies that you don’t want opposing views to have any seats on the bench at all. You don’t believe in democracy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” I think the kind of place you mean is something like Liberty “University” founded by Jerry Falwell. Seriously, would you want a federal judge from the David Letterman University?”

    Huh?

    What about SMU? Or TCU? Or Baylor? Or one of the Concordias? Or New Saint Andrews? Or Patrick Henry?

    No offense, but you are sort of parodying yourself with that comment. Liberty U is a fundy Christian College. We all know that. However, most Christian colleges are not fundamentalist. We all know that, too. Seriously, you come off as a crank and self parody when you suggest that Liberty U is typical of Christian colleges.

    FWIW, Liberty U Law school grads pass the University of Virginia bar exam at a higher rate than any other Virginia Law school; 100% Feb. 2011.

    “Liberty is the only Virginia school to achieve the 100 percent rate in the state this year. Washington & Lee was at 90 percent; George Mason, 84.8 percent; University of Virginia, 75 percent; and the College of William & Mary, 73.3 percent”
    http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/liberty-akron-both-report-100-pass-rates-feb-bar-exam

    Since their scholarship is fine, then you are simply bigoted in objecting to them having any representation at all whatever in the judiciary. You simply do not respect the rights of a minority to have a seat at the table or on the bench as one voice among many or several.

    I object to the ideology of those on the judiciary who feel that legal killing of unborn children is legally defensible under the Constitution. They have seats at the table and more seats on the bench than their respective opinions do among our population.

    The idea in the USA is majority rule and minority rights and representation for all. I assume you like that protection when you are the minority, but your comment implies that you don’t want opposing views to have any seats on the bench at all. You don’t believe in democracy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I think the kind of place you mean is something like Liberty “University” founded by Jerry Falwell.

    Yeah, because we Lutherans all heartily endorse fundies and their institutions. (sarcasm)

    You come off as a troll with that comment.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I think the kind of place you mean is something like Liberty “University” founded by Jerry Falwell.

    Yeah, because we Lutherans all heartily endorse fundies and their institutions. (sarcasm)

    You come off as a troll with that comment.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

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