He murdered 77 “out of good, not evil”

Few people do bad things out of a desire to do something evil.  Rather, they convince themselves that what they are doing is “good.”  And the spirit of self-righteousness, ironically, can lead to the most horrible of sins.  An example is the testimony of the Norwegian mass-murderer, of whose 77 victims, 69 were young people at a youth camp:

The Norwegian far-right activist who killed 77 people last year has told a court that he was fighting a battle against multi-culturalism and acted out of “goodness, not evil”.

Reading from a 13-page document that he wrote in custody, Anders Behring Breivik defended his massacre and called it the most “spectacular attack by a nationalist militant since World War Two”.

He said he would repeat his actions again, if he could.

“Yes, I would do it again,” he said, adding that life in prison or dying for “his people” would be “the biggest honour”.

The 33-year-old lashed out at the Norwegian and other European governments for embracing immigration and multi-culturalism and claimed he was a “second-rate citizen”.

He said the aim of the killings was for “racial purity” and to “change the direction of multi-cultural drift to avoid greater confrontation and civil war”.

He claimed the only way he could “protect the white native Norwegian” was through violence. . . .

Journalist Trygve Sorvaag, who is tweeting inside the court for Sky News, said: “For many people, it was very surprising to hear how soft, almost nasal, his voice was. He didn’t appear dangerous in any way.

“It was very hard to see that this softly spoken man is actually the person who murdered 77 people.”

via Norway Killer: Trial Of Anders Behring Breivik – Far-Right Utoya Island Shootings And Oslo Explosion | World News | Sky News.

Can you think of other cases in which “goodness” becomes a cover for “evil”?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Michael B.

    I would turn the question around. Name an instance when people do evil, and know what they are doing is evil. That is, they don’t believe that they are acting out of the greater good.

    In every mass slaughter, the perpetrators think they are acting out of the greater good.

  • Michael B.

    I would turn the question around. Name an instance when people do evil, and know what they are doing is evil. That is, they don’t believe that they are acting out of the greater good.

    In every mass slaughter, the perpetrators think they are acting out of the greater good.

  • rebecca w

    This reminds me of the following quote:

    “Self-deception is not the worst thing we do, but it is the means by which we do the worst things.” -Tim Keller

  • rebecca w

    This reminds me of the following quote:

    “Self-deception is not the worst thing we do, but it is the means by which we do the worst things.” -Tim Keller

  • http://dimlamp.wordpress.com/ Dim Lamp

    Calling evil good and good evil epitomizes evil and is one of the roots of historical events like the Holocaust. Today is Yom HaShoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day.

  • http://dimlamp.wordpress.com/ Dim Lamp

    Calling evil good and good evil epitomizes evil and is one of the roots of historical events like the Holocaust. Today is Yom HaShoah, Holocaust Remembrance Day.

  • Trey

    Abortion and active euthanasia are the most obvious evil done for “good”. This is the modern and post-modern ethic, yet it can be used to justify anything.

  • Trey

    Abortion and active euthanasia are the most obvious evil done for “good”. This is the modern and post-modern ethic, yet it can be used to justify anything.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    Breivik’s actions could have been predicted (though I’m not saying I did predict them). For years we’ve been told that terrorism rises, not out of an evil lust for blood and power, but as an expression of impotent rage–almost a cry for help–on the part of the disenfranchised. Did the people who defended terrorists think nobody from the other side would copy the tactic?

    Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway. After Breivik (though he’s no Christian, the press delights in talking as if he was) it may have no future there at all.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    Breivik’s actions could have been predicted (though I’m not saying I did predict them). For years we’ve been told that terrorism rises, not out of an evil lust for blood and power, but as an expression of impotent rage–almost a cry for help–on the part of the disenfranchised. Did the people who defended terrorists think nobody from the other side would copy the tactic?

    Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway. After Breivik (though he’s no Christian, the press delights in talking as if he was) it may have no future there at all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Brevik used violence to attack elites who wish to elect a new people.

    There are likely plenty of non-violent people in Norway who agree with Brevik but aren’t going to use violence, rather they suffer from the violence from the immigrants which is a form of oppression by the upper classes.

    They remind me of Emma West. She is a foul mouthed lower class British woman galled at third world immigration into Britain. She spent Christmas in jail for verbally insulting immigrants to Britain. Not a lovely creature, for sure, but also not a criminal whose children should be taken from her because she uses the f-word to liberally.

    Most of us are not appalled that Israel is by and for ethnic Jews. But for some reason, elites absolutely despise any nation of whites arguing for their ethnic right to keep their homelands for themselves. But the UN actually recognizes the rights of indigenous peoples, so what is the difference? Why can’t Norwegians openly discuss their desire to live in a Norway that is full of, gasp, Norwegians? It is not that everyone in Norway feels that way, but that the sentiment is so harshly punished that folks can’t even talk openly without consequence. I mean openly advocating Biblical Christianity is more acceptable than openly advocating the ethnic interests of one’s own people if you are northern European.
    Notify me of followup comments via e-mail

    Preview:
    Brevik used violence to attack elites who wish to elect a new people.

    There are likely plenty of non-violent people in Norway who agree with Brevik but aren’t going to use violence, rather they suffer from the violence from the immigrants which is a form of oppression by the upper classes.

    They remind me of Emma West. She is a foul mouthed lower class British woman galled at third world immigration into Britain. She spent Christmas in jail for verbally insulting immigrants to Britain. Not a lovely creature, for sure, but also not a criminal whose children should be taken from her because she uses the f-word to liberally.

    Most of us are not appalled that Israel is by and for ethnic Jews. But for some reason, elites absolutely despise any nation of whites arguing for their ethnic right to keep their homelands for themselves. But the UN actually recognizes the rights of indigenous peoples, so what is the difference? Why can’t Norwegians openly discuss their desire to live in a Norway that is full of, gasp, Norwegians? It is not that everyone in Norway feels that way, but that the sentiment is so harshly punished that folks can’t even talk openly without consequence. I mean openly advocating Biblical Christianity is more acceptable than openly advocating the ethnic interests of one’s own people if you are northern European. Norway is teeny weeny tiny in livable space and in population. Can’t those few people even have that little frozen corner?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Brevik used violence to attack elites who wish to elect a new people.

    There are likely plenty of non-violent people in Norway who agree with Brevik but aren’t going to use violence, rather they suffer from the violence from the immigrants which is a form of oppression by the upper classes.

    They remind me of Emma West. She is a foul mouthed lower class British woman galled at third world immigration into Britain. She spent Christmas in jail for verbally insulting immigrants to Britain. Not a lovely creature, for sure, but also not a criminal whose children should be taken from her because she uses the f-word to liberally.

    Most of us are not appalled that Israel is by and for ethnic Jews. But for some reason, elites absolutely despise any nation of whites arguing for their ethnic right to keep their homelands for themselves. But the UN actually recognizes the rights of indigenous peoples, so what is the difference? Why can’t Norwegians openly discuss their desire to live in a Norway that is full of, gasp, Norwegians? It is not that everyone in Norway feels that way, but that the sentiment is so harshly punished that folks can’t even talk openly without consequence. I mean openly advocating Biblical Christianity is more acceptable than openly advocating the ethnic interests of one’s own people if you are northern European.
    Notify me of followup comments via e-mail

    Preview:
    Brevik used violence to attack elites who wish to elect a new people.

    There are likely plenty of non-violent people in Norway who agree with Brevik but aren’t going to use violence, rather they suffer from the violence from the immigrants which is a form of oppression by the upper classes.

    They remind me of Emma West. She is a foul mouthed lower class British woman galled at third world immigration into Britain. She spent Christmas in jail for verbally insulting immigrants to Britain. Not a lovely creature, for sure, but also not a criminal whose children should be taken from her because she uses the f-word to liberally.

    Most of us are not appalled that Israel is by and for ethnic Jews. But for some reason, elites absolutely despise any nation of whites arguing for their ethnic right to keep their homelands for themselves. But the UN actually recognizes the rights of indigenous peoples, so what is the difference? Why can’t Norwegians openly discuss their desire to live in a Norway that is full of, gasp, Norwegians? It is not that everyone in Norway feels that way, but that the sentiment is so harshly punished that folks can’t even talk openly without consequence. I mean openly advocating Biblical Christianity is more acceptable than openly advocating the ethnic interests of one’s own people if you are northern European. Norway is teeny weeny tiny in livable space and in population. Can’t those few people even have that little frozen corner?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Can you think of other cases in which “goodness” becomes a cover for “evil”?”

    Multiculturalism.

    Basically a good idea that each should value his own culture and traditions and understand and appreciate those of others. So that is good.

    In practice, it has served as tool of postmodern anti-western anti-truth and promoting evil like relativism wherein Americans are cretins for opposing gay marriage, but Iran executes gays because, well, that is their culture. We don’t want to paint some people with too broad a brush, but it is fine to do to others. One nationalist murderer in Norway indicates that the nationalists are violent, but a hundred immigrant rapists doesn’t belie any problem with violence in their community. Because nationalists are bad, but immigrants are good because diversity is good regardless of results.
    Yeah, whatever.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Can you think of other cases in which “goodness” becomes a cover for “evil”?”

    Multiculturalism.

    Basically a good idea that each should value his own culture and traditions and understand and appreciate those of others. So that is good.

    In practice, it has served as tool of postmodern anti-western anti-truth and promoting evil like relativism wherein Americans are cretins for opposing gay marriage, but Iran executes gays because, well, that is their culture. We don’t want to paint some people with too broad a brush, but it is fine to do to others. One nationalist murderer in Norway indicates that the nationalists are violent, but a hundred immigrant rapists doesn’t belie any problem with violence in their community. Because nationalists are bad, but immigrants are good because diversity is good regardless of results.
    Yeah, whatever.

  • L. H. Kevil

    “Few people do bad things out of a desire to do something evil.”

    Are you kidding? The desire to do evil is inescapably deep in our nature. That is where the thrill comes from. Rationalization and public profession of goodness change nothing.

  • L. H. Kevil

    “Few people do bad things out of a desire to do something evil.”

    Are you kidding? The desire to do evil is inescapably deep in our nature. That is where the thrill comes from. Rationalization and public profession of goodness change nothing.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lars Walker: “Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway.”

    The Church of Norway is the state church of Norway, established after the Lutheran reformation in Denmark-Norway in 1536-1537 broke the ties to the Holy See. The church confesses the Lutheran Christian faith. It has as its foundation the Christian Bible, the Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, Luther’s Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

    The constitutional head of the Church is the King of Norway, who is obliged to profess himself a Lutheran.

    79.2% of Norwegians were members of the state Church of Norway as of January 1, 2010, a 1% drop compared to the year before and down nearly 3% from two years earlier. However, only 20% of Norwegians say that religion occupies an important place in their life (according to a recent Gallup poll), making Norway one of the most secular countries of the world (only in Estonia, Sweden and Denmark were the percentages of people who considered religion to be important lower), and only about 3% of the population attends church services or other religious meetings more than once a month. Baptism of infants fell from 96.8% in 1960 to 70.4% in 2008, while the proportion of confirmants fell from 93% in 1960 to 66.2% in 2008.

    (Excerpted from Wikipedia)

    P.S. Hmmmmm… might someone in academia craft a scholarly argument that Lutheranism in Norway substantially lead to secularism in Norway?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lars Walker: “Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway.”

    The Church of Norway is the state church of Norway, established after the Lutheran reformation in Denmark-Norway in 1536-1537 broke the ties to the Holy See. The church confesses the Lutheran Christian faith. It has as its foundation the Christian Bible, the Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed, Luther’s Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

    The constitutional head of the Church is the King of Norway, who is obliged to profess himself a Lutheran.

    79.2% of Norwegians were members of the state Church of Norway as of January 1, 2010, a 1% drop compared to the year before and down nearly 3% from two years earlier. However, only 20% of Norwegians say that religion occupies an important place in their life (according to a recent Gallup poll), making Norway one of the most secular countries of the world (only in Estonia, Sweden and Denmark were the percentages of people who considered religion to be important lower), and only about 3% of the population attends church services or other religious meetings more than once a month. Baptism of infants fell from 96.8% in 1960 to 70.4% in 2008, while the proportion of confirmants fell from 93% in 1960 to 66.2% in 2008.

    (Excerpted from Wikipedia)

    P.S. Hmmmmm… might someone in academia craft a scholarly argument that Lutheranism in Norway substantially lead to secularism in Norway?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Interesting stats TuaD.

    “might someone in academia craft a scholarly argument that Lutheranism in Norway substantially lead to secularism in Norway?”

    Yeah, probably, not that it means much. Especially if you consider what people are actually taught by the church.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Interesting stats TuaD.

    “might someone in academia craft a scholarly argument that Lutheranism in Norway substantially lead to secularism in Norway?”

    Yeah, probably, not that it means much. Especially if you consider what people are actually taught by the church.

  • Jon

    Goodness a cover for evil? For starters, the US slaughter of women and children in Afghanistan; the use of torture during Bush/Cheney.

  • Jon

    Goodness a cover for evil? For starters, the US slaughter of women and children in Afghanistan; the use of torture during Bush/Cheney.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: @ 9. Or maybe, when you have a state church, Lutheran or otherwise, it’s going to decline as trust in government declines – which has been the trend for a long time now in Western democracies. As one goes, so goes the other when you’re joined at the hip.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: @ 9. Or maybe, when you have a state church, Lutheran or otherwise, it’s going to decline as trust in government declines – which has been the trend for a long time now in Western democracies. As one goes, so goes the other when you’re joined at the hip.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    @ 12.

    The government is comprised of people. Looking at Norway, 79.2% of Norwegians are Lutherans and members of the State Church of Norway.

    If the government in Norway has a similar demographic, then roughly 79.2% of the politicians and government leaders and workers are Lutherans.

    And Lars Walker observes: ““Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway.”

    Why?

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    @ 12.

    The government is comprised of people. Looking at Norway, 79.2% of Norwegians are Lutherans and members of the State Church of Norway.

    If the government in Norway has a similar demographic, then roughly 79.2% of the politicians and government leaders and workers are Lutherans.

    And Lars Walker observes: ““Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway.”

    Why?

  • Tom Hering

    I don’t know. Why’s it in a sickly state here, across all denominations and non-denominations?

  • Tom Hering

    I don’t know. Why’s it in a sickly state here, across all denominations and non-denominations?

  • Grace

    Perhaps we should look at the entire world, most of it has gone wild, in one direction or another.

    The darkness of the middle ages, is reminiscent of today. The only difference is, people have the opportunity to study God’s Word. Most people in the Western world have a Bible, or more than one, but it lays dusty somewhere.

    The Bible says there will be a “falling away” (2 Thessalonians) that is what I see everyday.

  • Grace

    Perhaps we should look at the entire world, most of it has gone wild, in one direction or another.

    The darkness of the middle ages, is reminiscent of today. The only difference is, people have the opportunity to study God’s Word. Most people in the Western world have a Bible, or more than one, but it lays dusty somewhere.

    The Bible says there will be a “falling away” (2 Thessalonians) that is what I see everyday.

  • Joanne

    I always attend church, no matter where I am. I’m a polite and respectful visitor. I’ve attended the state church in Wittenberg (Marienkirche), Leipzig (Thomaskirche noon chapel), Dresden (last service in the unterkirche at the Frauenkirche). In Greece at the cathedral at Sparti and the village church at Mystras. In Reykjavik at the Cathedral (which is a small 19th century building on the old town square adjacent to the old Parliament Building. Not Hallgrimskirka.
    Knowing that all these are peoples’ churchs, state churches, and knowing that the public school system provides the religious instruction the children receive, albeit with instructors acceptable to the state/peoples’ church, one wonders just how much religion they are getting today. Multiculturalism, tolerance, pacifism, socialism are considered quasi-religious topics in these places and are included in religious instruction and in sermons. Axel Noack, the Archbishop of Magdeburg in 2005, preached the Reformation Day sermon at the Wittenberg Marienkirche. At one point I began to count the times he said toleranz. We picked the service at the Mariankirche to attend that day because a woman was preaching at the service at the Schlosskirche. We bumpted into her, black high heels and tabs and black talar, on the high street when both churches were letting out.
    My point, and I do have a point, is that Norway, where I have not yet been, has a peoples’ church, so it’s pubic expressions are now targeted toward the Zeitgeist, not toward any confessions of Biblical faith. When taking any action, the Peoples’ Church must ask, does this action reflect the ideas of all the people? You can’t believe something that is popularly unpopular. Political opposition to open immigration and multiculturalism is also religious opposition. And since the church preaches the Zeitgeist, there is no need to actually go there, because all media by law preach the Zeitgeist.
    There was a Bishop in Norway who did oppose the Peoples’ Church’s full endorsement of abortion just exactly when the state did. He spent a lot of time in prison and lost his see. He’s now active in a small, splinter group, and mad as hell about the way Norway is going and the absolute impotence of the church (the communion of saints) to do anything about it.
    So, you’re right, Breivik is not the only person angry in Norway, or more specifically angry at the Labor Party. Anger management is sorely needed in Norway so that all that energy in the anger can be translated into positive changes there.
    I utterly fail to see how killing 77 pure Norwegians can be seen as a protest against Multiculturalism, except they were all connected to the Labor Party. Still, my mind says stupid, stupid, stupid when ever I remember what Breivik did, and no matter how angry he might have been, his actual deed was evil because people do come to see the Truth and can change their minds, but killing their children by the dozens is just evil.

  • Joanne

    I always attend church, no matter where I am. I’m a polite and respectful visitor. I’ve attended the state church in Wittenberg (Marienkirche), Leipzig (Thomaskirche noon chapel), Dresden (last service in the unterkirche at the Frauenkirche). In Greece at the cathedral at Sparti and the village church at Mystras. In Reykjavik at the Cathedral (which is a small 19th century building on the old town square adjacent to the old Parliament Building. Not Hallgrimskirka.
    Knowing that all these are peoples’ churchs, state churches, and knowing that the public school system provides the religious instruction the children receive, albeit with instructors acceptable to the state/peoples’ church, one wonders just how much religion they are getting today. Multiculturalism, tolerance, pacifism, socialism are considered quasi-religious topics in these places and are included in religious instruction and in sermons. Axel Noack, the Archbishop of Magdeburg in 2005, preached the Reformation Day sermon at the Wittenberg Marienkirche. At one point I began to count the times he said toleranz. We picked the service at the Mariankirche to attend that day because a woman was preaching at the service at the Schlosskirche. We bumpted into her, black high heels and tabs and black talar, on the high street when both churches were letting out.
    My point, and I do have a point, is that Norway, where I have not yet been, has a peoples’ church, so it’s pubic expressions are now targeted toward the Zeitgeist, not toward any confessions of Biblical faith. When taking any action, the Peoples’ Church must ask, does this action reflect the ideas of all the people? You can’t believe something that is popularly unpopular. Political opposition to open immigration and multiculturalism is also religious opposition. And since the church preaches the Zeitgeist, there is no need to actually go there, because all media by law preach the Zeitgeist.
    There was a Bishop in Norway who did oppose the Peoples’ Church’s full endorsement of abortion just exactly when the state did. He spent a lot of time in prison and lost his see. He’s now active in a small, splinter group, and mad as hell about the way Norway is going and the absolute impotence of the church (the communion of saints) to do anything about it.
    So, you’re right, Breivik is not the only person angry in Norway, or more specifically angry at the Labor Party. Anger management is sorely needed in Norway so that all that energy in the anger can be translated into positive changes there.
    I utterly fail to see how killing 77 pure Norwegians can be seen as a protest against Multiculturalism, except they were all connected to the Labor Party. Still, my mind says stupid, stupid, stupid when ever I remember what Breivik did, and no matter how angry he might have been, his actual deed was evil because people do come to see the Truth and can change their minds, but killing their children by the dozens is just evil.

  • Grace

    He said he would repeat his actions again, if he could.

    “Yes, I would do it again,” he said, adding that life in prison or dying for “his people” would be “the biggest honour”.

    The 33-year-old lashed out at the Norwegian and other European governments for embracing immigration and multi-culturalism and claimed he was a “second-rate citizen”.

    He said the aim of the killings was for “racial purity” and to “change the direction of multi-cultural drift to avoid greater confrontation and civil war”.

    There you have it – his answer – EVIL

    My parents had many friends who were born in Norway. They were strong Believers in Christ. I have an acquaintence, (born in Norway) who told me when she visited Norway just a short time ago, she would NEVER GO BACK, it was not a place she wanted to see any longer, the sadness in her voice was obvious.

  • Grace

    He said he would repeat his actions again, if he could.

    “Yes, I would do it again,” he said, adding that life in prison or dying for “his people” would be “the biggest honour”.

    The 33-year-old lashed out at the Norwegian and other European governments for embracing immigration and multi-culturalism and claimed he was a “second-rate citizen”.

    He said the aim of the killings was for “racial purity” and to “change the direction of multi-cultural drift to avoid greater confrontation and civil war”.

    There you have it – his answer – EVIL

    My parents had many friends who were born in Norway. They were strong Believers in Christ. I have an acquaintence, (born in Norway) who told me when she visited Norway just a short time ago, she would NEVER GO BACK, it was not a place she wanted to see any longer, the sadness in her voice was obvious.

  • MikeD

    Without knowing for sure what his government will do as punishment, I imagine they will not execute the man under the guise of what is good.

  • MikeD

    Without knowing for sure what his government will do as punishment, I imagine they will not execute the man under the guise of what is good.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lars Walker: “Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway. After Breivik (though he’s no Christian, the press delights in talking as if he was) it may have no future there at all.”

    Anders Breivik: “At the age of 15 I chose to be baptised and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church,” the 32-year-old Breivik wrote.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Lars Walker: “Christianity was already in a sickly state in Norway. After Breivik (though he’s no Christian, the press delights in talking as if he was) it may have no future there at all.”

    Anders Breivik: “At the age of 15 I chose to be baptised and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church,” the 32-year-old Breivik wrote.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I utterly fail to see how killing 77 pure Norwegians can be seen as a protest against Multiculturalism, except they were all connected to the Labor Party. Still, my mind says stupid, stupid, stupid when ever I remember what Breivik did, and no matter how angry he might have been, his actual deed was evil because people do come to see the Truth and can change their minds, but killing their children by the dozens is just evil.

    Evil, yes. But not so unlike the Bolsheviks targeting and killing the royal family. Those most likely to carry on the tradition would be the children who were the obvious heirs to their parents’ positions and carried with them the same beliefs. Norwegians don’t tend to have ten kids, and killing the kids of the elites is more effective than killing immigrants who don’t make the policies Brevik opposed. So while it may have been stupid. It was not as stupid as some other terroristic murders he could have committed. Killing 77 up and coming elites is a pretty hefty toll in the context of such a teeny weeny country. It also reminds the elites, up close and personal, of their enemies. I am not sure what truth you mean people will come to see. Often people mislabel conflicts as problems. This conflict will have an outcome. Nationalists are fundamentally in conflict with mass immigration. One idea or the other will win. It will not be solved. Do most Norwegians wish to preserve Norway as recognizably Norwegian? I don’t know, but if they do, they won’t be able to do it with the current policies, nor will they be able to discuss it. Often we hear how sad it is that so many human languages and cultures go extinct through assimilation etc. Well, that is where itty bitty Norway is. They have to figure that out for themselves. Brevik is a symptom that all is not well in the state of Norway.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I utterly fail to see how killing 77 pure Norwegians can be seen as a protest against Multiculturalism, except they were all connected to the Labor Party. Still, my mind says stupid, stupid, stupid when ever I remember what Breivik did, and no matter how angry he might have been, his actual deed was evil because people do come to see the Truth and can change their minds, but killing their children by the dozens is just evil.

    Evil, yes. But not so unlike the Bolsheviks targeting and killing the royal family. Those most likely to carry on the tradition would be the children who were the obvious heirs to their parents’ positions and carried with them the same beliefs. Norwegians don’t tend to have ten kids, and killing the kids of the elites is more effective than killing immigrants who don’t make the policies Brevik opposed. So while it may have been stupid. It was not as stupid as some other terroristic murders he could have committed. Killing 77 up and coming elites is a pretty hefty toll in the context of such a teeny weeny country. It also reminds the elites, up close and personal, of their enemies. I am not sure what truth you mean people will come to see. Often people mislabel conflicts as problems. This conflict will have an outcome. Nationalists are fundamentally in conflict with mass immigration. One idea or the other will win. It will not be solved. Do most Norwegians wish to preserve Norway as recognizably Norwegian? I don’t know, but if they do, they won’t be able to do it with the current policies, nor will they be able to discuss it. Often we hear how sad it is that so many human languages and cultures go extinct through assimilation etc. Well, that is where itty bitty Norway is. They have to figure that out for themselves. Brevik is a symptom that all is not well in the state of Norway.

  • Grace

    Sane and Evil

    ABC News

    Norway Killer Wanted to Behead Prime Minister on Camera
    By RANDY KREIDER
    April 19, 2012

    “Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitting killing 77 people in twin terror attacks in Norway last summer, testified today that his original plan included chopping of the head of former Norwegian Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland and posting a video of the beheading on the web.

    “The plan to was to behead Gro Harlem Brundtland while it was being filmed,” Breivik said in court Thursday. “It was meant to be a very powerful psychological weapon.”

    Breivik, a right-wing extremist who claims he committed the July 2011 murders to protest Islamic immigration to Europe, said he got the idea of decapitation from al Qaeda videos.”"

    ___________________another excerpt:

    “The 33-year-old had rejected an insanity defense, saying he considered an insanity diagnosis “the ultimate humiliation.” Though he was found insane in an initial examination, a second team of doctors found him to be sane.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway-killer-wanted-behead-prime-minister-camera/story?id=16172555

  • Grace

    Sane and Evil

    ABC News

    Norway Killer Wanted to Behead Prime Minister on Camera
    By RANDY KREIDER
    April 19, 2012

    “Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitting killing 77 people in twin terror attacks in Norway last summer, testified today that his original plan included chopping of the head of former Norwegian Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland and posting a video of the beheading on the web.

    “The plan to was to behead Gro Harlem Brundtland while it was being filmed,” Breivik said in court Thursday. “It was meant to be a very powerful psychological weapon.”

    Breivik, a right-wing extremist who claims he committed the July 2011 murders to protest Islamic immigration to Europe, said he got the idea of decapitation from al Qaeda videos.”"

    ___________________another excerpt:

    “The 33-year-old had rejected an insanity defense, saying he considered an insanity diagnosis “the ultimate humiliation.” Though he was found insane in an initial examination, a second team of doctors found him to be sane.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway-killer-wanted-behead-prime-minister-camera/story?id=16172555

  • JH

    Gov’t response to Waco.

    hey, gov’t response to pretty much everything. The Yankee complex is defined by good intentions resulting in evil.

  • JH

    Gov’t response to Waco.

    hey, gov’t response to pretty much everything. The Yankee complex is defined by good intentions resulting in evil.

  • Joanne

    TUD at 19.

    It is very odd for a Lutheran to be baptised by his own choice at the age of 15. That would indicate that his parents were likely not religious if they didn’t take their baby to be baptised usually within a month of birth. I understand that his parents divorced early in his life and he hardly knew his father at all. Still, infants are expected to be baptised in all the Lutheran, Anglican, and Catholic countries, and I believe the Calvinist countries, which is all of Europe no matter where he was born. Mother made a decision not to have baby baptised, I wonder what other unsocial ideas she has.
    And, he wasn’t a member of the state church? State church membership usually comes with birth. One has to fill out forms and request not to be a member of the state church, unless maybe his mother had already opted out of the state church and he inherited her non-membership.
    This story just gets weirder and weirder.

  • Joanne

    TUD at 19.

    It is very odd for a Lutheran to be baptised by his own choice at the age of 15. That would indicate that his parents were likely not religious if they didn’t take their baby to be baptised usually within a month of birth. I understand that his parents divorced early in his life and he hardly knew his father at all. Still, infants are expected to be baptised in all the Lutheran, Anglican, and Catholic countries, and I believe the Calvinist countries, which is all of Europe no matter where he was born. Mother made a decision not to have baby baptised, I wonder what other unsocial ideas she has.
    And, he wasn’t a member of the state church? State church membership usually comes with birth. One has to fill out forms and request not to be a member of the state church, unless maybe his mother had already opted out of the state church and he inherited her non-membership.
    This story just gets weirder and weirder.

  • Grace

    “It is very odd for a Lutheran to be baptised by his own choice at the age of 15. That would indicate that his parents were likely not religious if they didn’t take their baby to be baptised usually within a month of birth.:”

    “Religion” doesn’t save anyone.
    Joanne @ 23

    “Mother made a decision not to have baby baptised, I wonder what other unsocial ideas she has.

    Is it “unsocial” not to have an infant baptised?

    Is “religion” a “social” or “unsocial” event in ones life?

    “And, he wasn’t a member of the state church? State church membership usually comes with birth.”

    Christ never stated such a thing. A “state church” has nothing to do with the heart of man, or his sinfulness, being born sinful.

  • Grace

    “It is very odd for a Lutheran to be baptised by his own choice at the age of 15. That would indicate that his parents were likely not religious if they didn’t take their baby to be baptised usually within a month of birth.:”

    “Religion” doesn’t save anyone.
    Joanne @ 23

    “Mother made a decision not to have baby baptised, I wonder what other unsocial ideas she has.

    Is it “unsocial” not to have an infant baptised?

    Is “religion” a “social” or “unsocial” event in ones life?

    “And, he wasn’t a member of the state church? State church membership usually comes with birth.”

    Christ never stated such a thing. A “state church” has nothing to do with the heart of man, or his sinfulness, being born sinful.

  • Joanne

    Djevelen er en morder!

  • Joanne

    Djevelen er en morder!

  • Grace

    Not clever Joanne – there are translations available all over the web.

    Your points were posted in English, but you hide behind?????

  • Grace

    Not clever Joanne – there are translations available all over the web.

    Your points were posted in English, but you hide behind?????

  • Joanne

    In Norway, we’re really talking about a tribe and it’s tribal religion. In Norway it was an anti-social act. According to tribal custom, a Norwegian is a Lutheran, unless the person takes special actions to leave the tribal church. Remember, it’s a people’s church. It was only in the 19th century that non-Lutherans were allowed to live in Norway. This is similar to other state church situations. Jews were not allowed back into England till about the same time (19th century). The Kings demanded it and the nobility supported it, the tribal religion and the law demanded it. Recently the laws have been relaxed, but normally one is a member of the tribal religion just by being born into the tribe. If you’ve watched very many of Ingmar Bergman’s films, he grew up in a Swedish parsonage, you will see in every film a hatred for his father, the pastor in the state church. These kinds of arrangements make pastors civil servants and there is a whole body of church law detailing just what a pastor must and must not do.
    Recently the Swedish Church defrocked an aged seminary professor because he fraternized with a very small group of Confessional Lutherans. But the same church has nothing to say about a female pastor in Stockholm who wrote a book denying that Jesus was killed as a sacrifice for our sins. Hogwash she says. Church is unconcerned. It’s a people’s church, they are focused on the Zeitgeist.
    The religious reality in the Nordic countries simple can’t be compared to the way our churches operate here in America where we don’t have Federal and State church law and church politicians to control what our churches do.

  • Joanne

    In Norway, we’re really talking about a tribe and it’s tribal religion. In Norway it was an anti-social act. According to tribal custom, a Norwegian is a Lutheran, unless the person takes special actions to leave the tribal church. Remember, it’s a people’s church. It was only in the 19th century that non-Lutherans were allowed to live in Norway. This is similar to other state church situations. Jews were not allowed back into England till about the same time (19th century). The Kings demanded it and the nobility supported it, the tribal religion and the law demanded it. Recently the laws have been relaxed, but normally one is a member of the tribal religion just by being born into the tribe. If you’ve watched very many of Ingmar Bergman’s films, he grew up in a Swedish parsonage, you will see in every film a hatred for his father, the pastor in the state church. These kinds of arrangements make pastors civil servants and there is a whole body of church law detailing just what a pastor must and must not do.
    Recently the Swedish Church defrocked an aged seminary professor because he fraternized with a very small group of Confessional Lutherans. But the same church has nothing to say about a female pastor in Stockholm who wrote a book denying that Jesus was killed as a sacrifice for our sins. Hogwash she says. Church is unconcerned. It’s a people’s church, they are focused on the Zeitgeist.
    The religious reality in the Nordic countries simple can’t be compared to the way our churches operate here in America where we don’t have Federal and State church law and church politicians to control what our churches do.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Joanne, #27: “In Norway, we’re really talking about a tribe and it’s tribal religion.”

    The tribal religion is Confessional Lutheranism. The State Church confesses and subscribes to Luther’s Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

    An interesting observation is that the state churches around the world affirm infant baptism.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Joanne, #27: “In Norway, we’re really talking about a tribe and it’s tribal religion.”

    The tribal religion is Confessional Lutheranism. The State Church confesses and subscribes to Luther’s Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.

    An interesting observation is that the state churches around the world affirm infant baptism.

  • Joanne

    TUD at 28.
    I would say that the current Norwegian Tribal Religion is State and Culturally defined Lutheranistic spiritualism that doesn’t require any involvement with churches. The Norwegian Thought Police jail dissenters, i.e. Confessional Lutherans for continuing to push that ole time religion. Norway has so moved on from that, don’t you think?

  • Joanne

    TUD at 28.
    I would say that the current Norwegian Tribal Religion is State and Culturally defined Lutheranistic spiritualism that doesn’t require any involvement with churches. The Norwegian Thought Police jail dissenters, i.e. Confessional Lutherans for continuing to push that ole time religion. Norway has so moved on from that, don’t you think?

  • Joanne

    In the same way that Israel demanded a king from God to be like the other nations, Christian churches everywhere and at all time have sought state involvement and force to cement their ability to discipline wayward Christians. Any recently formed churches (e.g., the American sectarians) just haven’t had the chance to form a state church yet. They will when a propitious time occurs.

  • Joanne

    In the same way that Israel demanded a king from God to be like the other nations, Christian churches everywhere and at all time have sought state involvement and force to cement their ability to discipline wayward Christians. Any recently formed churches (e.g., the American sectarians) just haven’t had the chance to form a state church yet. They will when a propitious time occurs.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Me: “The tribal religion is Confessional Lutheranism. The State Church confesses and subscribes to Luther’s Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.”

    Joanne: “I would say that the current Norwegian Tribal Religion is State and Culturally defined Lutheranistic spiritualism that doesn’t require any involvement with churches.”

    You may very well know the facts on the ground in Norway much better than the wikipedia entry that I referenced.

    FWIW, I couldn’t help but associate “Lutheranistic spiritualism” with the Lutheran doctrine of baptism.

  • Truth Unites… and Divides

    Me: “The tribal religion is Confessional Lutheranism. The State Church confesses and subscribes to Luther’s Small Catechism and the Augsburg Confession.”

    Joanne: “I would say that the current Norwegian Tribal Religion is State and Culturally defined Lutheranistic spiritualism that doesn’t require any involvement with churches.”

    You may very well know the facts on the ground in Norway much better than the wikipedia entry that I referenced.

    FWIW, I couldn’t help but associate “Lutheranistic spiritualism” with the Lutheran doctrine of baptism.


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