Mormonism & Islam

Brigham Young University has its first non-Mormon student body president.  He’s a Muslim.  This is being reported like it’s an example of Mormon tolerance, but is it really so unusual?  I mean this with all due respect to both religions, but isn’t Mormonism much closer to Islam than to Christianity?

Both Mormonism and Islam reportedly had their origins in a prophet receiving a supernatural book from an angel.  Both involve elaborate systems of laws, including dietary rules and regulation of virtually every facet of life.  Both have practiced or currently practice polygamy.  Both promise an afterlife that includes sex and sensual pleasure.  Both recognize Jesus but consider Him as being less than true God.  Both reject the Trinity.  Both believe in salvation by works-righteousness.

Shouldn’t Mormonism and Islam be classified together as very similar religions?  Aren’t they both together on the other end of the extreme from Christianity, which is about God’s incarnation, grace, and redemption from the Law?

Muslim becomes BYU-Hawaii’s first non-Mormon student president | Following Faith | The Salt Lake Tribune.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Michael B.

    “Shouldn’t Mormonism and Islam be classified together as very similar religions?”

    Despite their hatred of each other that’s often seen, Mormonism, Islam, conservative Judaism, and conservative Christianity are in many ways very similar. On many of the political issues that we debate in America, they would all agree, such as being against government social programs, abortion, and homosexuality. Virtually every Muslim nation is pro-life and anti-homosexual. What’s very ironic though, is that many of these same people vote Democrat: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/11/07/islam-and-obama.html. Apparently many of these people are unified by their hatred of the Christian Religious Right. Is it certainly odd that a conservative Muslim and radical feminist can vote for the same person.

  • Michael B.

    “Shouldn’t Mormonism and Islam be classified together as very similar religions?”

    Despite their hatred of each other that’s often seen, Mormonism, Islam, conservative Judaism, and conservative Christianity are in many ways very similar. On many of the political issues that we debate in America, they would all agree, such as being against government social programs, abortion, and homosexuality. Virtually every Muslim nation is pro-life and anti-homosexual. What’s very ironic though, is that many of these same people vote Democrat: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/11/07/islam-and-obama.html. Apparently many of these people are unified by their hatred of the Christian Religious Right. Is it certainly odd that a conservative Muslim and radical feminist can vote for the same person.

  • Dan Kempin

    “Both promise an afterlife that includes . . . sensual pleasure.”

    Christianity proclaims an afterlife that is physical and sensual. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. True, Jesus says that we will neither “marry nor be given in marriage,” but out eternity will not be spent as a spirit “in heaven.” That is not the Christian teaching.

    (A tangent, perhaps, but I am still in an “easter” state of mind.)

  • Dan Kempin

    “Both promise an afterlife that includes . . . sensual pleasure.”

    Christianity proclaims an afterlife that is physical and sensual. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. True, Jesus says that we will neither “marry nor be given in marriage,” but out eternity will not be spent as a spirit “in heaven.” That is not the Christian teaching.

    (A tangent, perhaps, but I am still in an “easter” state of mind.)

  • reg

    I have noticed their similarities too. Another one is that both founding prophets received “revelations” that they later repudiated as not coming from God.

  • reg

    I have noticed their similarities too. Another one is that both founding prophets received “revelations” that they later repudiated as not coming from God.

  • E. Asbenson

    I agree, Dr. Veith.

    I was talking with Dr. Aikman about this 4-5 years ago in his History of Islam class. I have a cousin who converted to Mormonism years ago and I’m familiar with its history and doctrine. During the Islam class, I was struck with the blatant similarities between the two religions.

    Both founders (if sincere) should have heeded Paul’s warning to the Galatians, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

  • E. Asbenson

    I agree, Dr. Veith.

    I was talking with Dr. Aikman about this 4-5 years ago in his History of Islam class. I have a cousin who converted to Mormonism years ago and I’m familiar with its history and doctrine. During the Islam class, I was struck with the blatant similarities between the two religions.

    Both founders (if sincere) should have heeded Paul’s warning to the Galatians, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Exactly. Paul’s letter to the Galatians could be directly addressed to the Mormons, and the Muslims.

    And each of those false religions has a Jesus. It’s just not the Jesus of the Bible.

  • http://theoldadam.wordpress.com Steve Martin

    Exactly. Paul’s letter to the Galatians could be directly addressed to the Mormons, and the Muslims.

    And each of those false religions has a Jesus. It’s just not the Jesus of the Bible.

  • SKPeterson

    What, no love for the JW’s? Or are they second-tier heretics?

  • SKPeterson

    What, no love for the JW’s? Or are they second-tier heretics?

  • Jon

    It’s obvious to us, sure.

    But why don’t they (or the JWs or the _____ )see it, or do they?

  • Jon

    It’s obvious to us, sure.

    But why don’t they (or the JWs or the _____ )see it, or do they?

  • scott

    I think the biggest difference is obviously monotheism versus polytheism.

  • scott

    I think the biggest difference is obviously monotheism versus polytheism.

  • oishimitzu

    The big problem I see with this argument is that Mormons do not recognize Mohammad or the Quran at all. Similarities notwithstanding, I would think that would be the biggest prerequisite to consider a group as Muslim.

  • oishimitzu

    The big problem I see with this argument is that Mormons do not recognize Mohammad or the Quran at all. Similarities notwithstanding, I would think that would be the biggest prerequisite to consider a group as Muslim.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Apparently many of these people are unified by their hatred of the Christian Religious Right. Is it certainly odd that a conservative Muslim and radical feminist can vote for the same person.”

    Not surprising at all. They both want government freebies paid for by productive workers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Apparently many of these people are unified by their hatred of the Christian Religious Right. Is it certainly odd that a conservative Muslim and radical feminist can vote for the same person.”

    Not surprising at all. They both want government freebies paid for by productive workers.

  • Grace

    “Shouldn’t Mormonism and Islam be classified together as very similar religions? Aren’t they both together on the other end of the extreme from Christianity, which is about God’s incarnation, grace, and redemption from the Law?”

    Yes.

    A Christian University has asked Romney to be its speaker for commencemnt. A cultist to deliver a “commencement address” to an Evangelical Christian University – what next? Who will be the speakers for all the other Christian Universities?

    Apr. 19, 2012

    Romney is Liberty University commencement speaker

    Associated Press – The Associated Press

    WASHINGTON – Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney is set to deliver this year’s commencement address at Liberty University, the evangelical Christian institution founded by the late televangelist Jerry Falwell Sr.

    Romney, a Mormon, has never before visited the Lynchburg, Va., college.

    The university announced news of the May 12 commencement address on Thursday.

    http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/04/19/2488184/romney-is-liberty-university-commencement.html

    A short excerpt from the Liberty University “statement of faith”

    Liberty University

    The King’s PLAYERS Statement of Faith

    “We affirm that each person can be saved only through the work of Jesus Christ, through repentance of sin and by faith alone in Him as Savior.“

    http://www.liberty.edu/academics/communications/coms/index.cfm?pid=2329

    “This generation, however, is not left without a test. I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist.“

    President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312 – made in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, July 13, 1862.

  • Grace

    “Shouldn’t Mormonism and Islam be classified together as very similar religions? Aren’t they both together on the other end of the extreme from Christianity, which is about God’s incarnation, grace, and redemption from the Law?”

    Yes.

    A Christian University has asked Romney to be its speaker for commencemnt. A cultist to deliver a “commencement address” to an Evangelical Christian University – what next? Who will be the speakers for all the other Christian Universities?

    Apr. 19, 2012

    Romney is Liberty University commencement speaker

    Associated Press – The Associated Press

    WASHINGTON – Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney is set to deliver this year’s commencement address at Liberty University, the evangelical Christian institution founded by the late televangelist Jerry Falwell Sr.

    Romney, a Mormon, has never before visited the Lynchburg, Va., college.

    The university announced news of the May 12 commencement address on Thursday.

    http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012/04/19/2488184/romney-is-liberty-university-commencement.html

    A short excerpt from the Liberty University “statement of faith”

    Liberty University

    The King’s PLAYERS Statement of Faith

    “We affirm that each person can be saved only through the work of Jesus Christ, through repentance of sin and by faith alone in Him as Savior.“

    http://www.liberty.edu/academics/communications/coms/index.cfm?pid=2329

    “This generation, however, is not left without a test. I have taught for thirty years, and still teach, that he that believeth in his heart and confesseth with his mouth that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith is his Prophet to this generation, is of God; and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fulness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is antichrist.“

    President Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312 – made in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, July 13, 1862.

  • JDB

    I agree with Michael B. @ 1 in that religions often share a number of teachings and beliefs that are similar. This is true not only of Islam and Mormonism, but also of Christianity. To the extent that such similarities give us points of conversation this is good. In addition, our similarities can enable us to see that there are people of good will and sincerity in every religion. That people of other faiths give devotion to God, prayer, and the doing of good works is evidence of this fact.

    Nevertheless, the difference between Christianity and every other religion comes down to the Person and work of Jesus Christ – that salvation is by His work of atonement, and His work alone, and that the only righteousness that saves and by which we may stand before God is that received by grace on account of His death for us.

    On this chief point Mormonism and Islam differ with Christianity, and are much more related to each other than to the Church. Humanly speaking, there are many good people in each. Yet both ultimately fall back upon the righteousness of individual, either in part or completely.

  • JDB

    I agree with Michael B. @ 1 in that religions often share a number of teachings and beliefs that are similar. This is true not only of Islam and Mormonism, but also of Christianity. To the extent that such similarities give us points of conversation this is good. In addition, our similarities can enable us to see that there are people of good will and sincerity in every religion. That people of other faiths give devotion to God, prayer, and the doing of good works is evidence of this fact.

    Nevertheless, the difference between Christianity and every other religion comes down to the Person and work of Jesus Christ – that salvation is by His work of atonement, and His work alone, and that the only righteousness that saves and by which we may stand before God is that received by grace on account of His death for us.

    On this chief point Mormonism and Islam differ with Christianity, and are much more related to each other than to the Church. Humanly speaking, there are many good people in each. Yet both ultimately fall back upon the righteousness of individual, either in part or completely.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Oishimitzu, I am not saying at all that Mormons ARE Muslim! (Muslims don’t accept the Book of Mormon any more than Mormons accept the Quran.) I am saying that they are similar KINDS of religions, with more in common with each other than either does with Christianity. I thought you were going to say something that might be somewhat of a problem with this thesis: That the Mormons DO accept at some level the Bible, as Christians do. (Though Muslims too accept the Bible to some measure, while insisting it has been mistranslated and distorted by Jews and Christians.) What do the rest of you think? Does that fact weaken the contention here?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Oishimitzu, I am not saying at all that Mormons ARE Muslim! (Muslims don’t accept the Book of Mormon any more than Mormons accept the Quran.) I am saying that they are similar KINDS of religions, with more in common with each other than either does with Christianity. I thought you were going to say something that might be somewhat of a problem with this thesis: That the Mormons DO accept at some level the Bible, as Christians do. (Though Muslims too accept the Bible to some measure, while insisting it has been mistranslated and distorted by Jews and Christians.) What do the rest of you think? Does that fact weaken the contention here?

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    If I recall correctly, Mormonism subscribes to a degree of universalism in that they have a “three-tiered heaven,” with the lowest tier being non-Mormons.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    If I recall correctly, Mormonism subscribes to a degree of universalism in that they have a “three-tiered heaven,” with the lowest tier being non-Mormons.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean
  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean
  • Grace

    U.S. Muslims share friendship, similar values with Mormons

    April 02, 2008|David Haldane | Times Staff Writer

    ______excerpt from article

    “One of the most enthusiastic responses, however, has come from what some might consider a surprising source: U.S. Muslims.

    “We are very aware of the history of Mormons as a group that was chastised in America,” says Maher Hathout, a senior advisor to the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles. “They can be a good model for any group that feels alienated.”

    Which perhaps explains an open-mosque day held last fall at the Islamic Center of Irvine. More than half the guests were Mormons.

    “A Mormon living in an Islamic society would be very comfortable,” said Steve Young, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attending the event.

    The sentiment is echoed by Muslims. “When I go to a Mormon church I feel at ease,” said Haitham Bundakji, former chairman of the Islamic Society of Orange County. “When I heard the president [of LDS] speak a few years ago, if I’d closed my eyes I’d have thought he was an imam.”

    ______excerpt from article

    Brigham Young University in Utah, the church’s major institution of higher learning, features what is thought to be one of the world’s best programs for translating classic Islamic works from Arabic to English. Though created primarily for academic purposes, the results have impressed Muslims flattered by the close attention.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/02/local/me-morlims2

  • Grace

    U.S. Muslims share friendship, similar values with Mormons

    April 02, 2008|David Haldane | Times Staff Writer

    ______excerpt from article

    “One of the most enthusiastic responses, however, has come from what some might consider a surprising source: U.S. Muslims.

    “We are very aware of the history of Mormons as a group that was chastised in America,” says Maher Hathout, a senior advisor to the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Los Angeles. “They can be a good model for any group that feels alienated.”

    Which perhaps explains an open-mosque day held last fall at the Islamic Center of Irvine. More than half the guests were Mormons.

    “A Mormon living in an Islamic society would be very comfortable,” said Steve Young, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attending the event.

    The sentiment is echoed by Muslims. “When I go to a Mormon church I feel at ease,” said Haitham Bundakji, former chairman of the Islamic Society of Orange County. “When I heard the president [of LDS] speak a few years ago, if I’d closed my eyes I’d have thought he was an imam.”

    ______excerpt from article

    Brigham Young University in Utah, the church’s major institution of higher learning, features what is thought to be one of the world’s best programs for translating classic Islamic works from Arabic to English. Though created primarily for academic purposes, the results have impressed Muslims flattered by the close attention.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/02/local/me-morlims2

  • Jon

    Grace @11, Liberty U. isn’t Christian, it’s Republican. There is a difference. The school exists to train troops to fight the American culture wars. Romney is a perfect fit for commencement speaker.

    American Christianity is all about ‘family values,’ shaming the poor, and protecting the rich. All with a slim coating of ‘J@sus’ for appearance’ sake. Which ‘J@sus’ isn’t important.

  • Jon

    Grace @11, Liberty U. isn’t Christian, it’s Republican. There is a difference. The school exists to train troops to fight the American culture wars. Romney is a perfect fit for commencement speaker.

    American Christianity is all about ‘family values,’ shaming the poor, and protecting the rich. All with a slim coating of ‘J@sus’ for appearance’ sake. Which ‘J@sus’ isn’t important.

  • Tom Hering

    Mormons DO accept at some level the Bible … Muslims too … Does that fact weaken the contention here?

    Nah. The demons also accept the truths of the Bible at some level. Maybe more fully than either Mormons or Muslims, because they recognize Jesus as the Second Person of the Trinity. “What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are – the Holy One of God!”

  • Tom Hering

    Mormons DO accept at some level the Bible … Muslims too … Does that fact weaken the contention here?

    Nah. The demons also accept the truths of the Bible at some level. Maybe more fully than either Mormons or Muslims, because they recognize Jesus as the Second Person of the Trinity. “What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are – the Holy One of God!”

  • Grace

    Jon,

    Liberty University was not always the way it is today. Just like many churches, who NOW embrace sin, as un-sinful – we have teaching institutions which have fallen, the very same way, embracing a cultist as speaker for their commencment. It’s to their shame, but there are many churches today that mirror similar shame.

    BTW. Using @ in Jesus name is disgraceful, HE is our LORD and Savior.

  • Grace

    Jon,

    Liberty University was not always the way it is today. Just like many churches, who NOW embrace sin, as un-sinful – we have teaching institutions which have fallen, the very same way, embracing a cultist as speaker for their commencment. It’s to their shame, but there are many churches today that mirror similar shame.

    BTW. Using @ in Jesus name is disgraceful, HE is our LORD and Savior.

  • Jon

    @19 Grace, I put a @ in the name because, in my view, it’s too holy to so casually type. Similar to the way orthodox Jews (and some Christians) write G-D for God. I don’t impose that view on anyone but myself.

    Sad that you condemned me without having the least knowledge of my motives.

  • Jon

    @19 Grace, I put a @ in the name because, in my view, it’s too holy to so casually type. Similar to the way orthodox Jews (and some Christians) write G-D for God. I don’t impose that view on anyone but myself.

    Sad that you condemned me without having the least knowledge of my motives.

  • Grace

    Jom @ 17

    “American Christianity is all about ‘family values,’ shaming the poor, and protecting the rich.”

    No, that’s a false assumption.

    Who Pays Income Taxes and How Much?
    http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

    Jon @ 20

    Lame excuse for using @

  • Grace

    Jom @ 17

    “American Christianity is all about ‘family values,’ shaming the poor, and protecting the rich.”

    No, that’s a false assumption.

    Who Pays Income Taxes and How Much?
    http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

    Jon @ 20

    Lame excuse for using @

  • Grace

    An insightful quote from the LDS Church!

    “The first account we have of the visitation of divine beings in this dispensation, is the account that is given to us by the Prophet Joseph Smith himself, concerning the visit of the Father and the Son. There had been men, doubtless many men in the various ages of the world, who had light and who had a degree of the Spirit of God. I believe myself that Mahomed, whom the Christians deride and call a false prophet and stigmatize with a great many epithets—I believe that he was a man raised up by the Almighty, and inspired to a certain extent by Him to effect the reforms which he did in his land, and in the nations surrounding.

    George Q. Cannon, 1883, Journal of Discourses, Volume 24 Page 371

  • Grace

    An insightful quote from the LDS Church!

    “The first account we have of the visitation of divine beings in this dispensation, is the account that is given to us by the Prophet Joseph Smith himself, concerning the visit of the Father and the Son. There had been men, doubtless many men in the various ages of the world, who had light and who had a degree of the Spirit of God. I believe myself that Mahomed, whom the Christians deride and call a false prophet and stigmatize with a great many epithets—I believe that he was a man raised up by the Almighty, and inspired to a certain extent by Him to effect the reforms which he did in his land, and in the nations surrounding.

    George Q. Cannon, 1883, Journal of Discourses, Volume 24 Page 371

  • Michael B.

    “Grace @11, Liberty U. isn’t Christian, it’s Republican.”

    Well, it’s fundamentalist Christian, and they generally dislike Democrats. Fundamentalist Christianity is inherently exclusive, as they believe people who don’t share their beliefs will burn in hell. At the same time, they have very strong political beliefs on things like homosexuality and abortion, and sometimes they have to set aside these beliefs to work with other groups who also share their political views (such as many Catholics). It’s something of a tightrope walk. It definitely works toward the Democrats advantage: These people detest Obama with a passion, but some will refuse to vote for the only person who could remove him from office because he’s a Mormon.

  • Michael B.

    “Grace @11, Liberty U. isn’t Christian, it’s Republican.”

    Well, it’s fundamentalist Christian, and they generally dislike Democrats. Fundamentalist Christianity is inherently exclusive, as they believe people who don’t share their beliefs will burn in hell. At the same time, they have very strong political beliefs on things like homosexuality and abortion, and sometimes they have to set aside these beliefs to work with other groups who also share their political views (such as many Catholics). It’s something of a tightrope walk. It definitely works toward the Democrats advantage: These people detest Obama with a passion, but some will refuse to vote for the only person who could remove him from office because he’s a Mormon.

  • Grace

    Michael @23

    YOU WROTE: ““Grace @11, Liberty U. isn’t Christian, it’s Republican.”

    Since the above is in quotes, I must tell you, I didn’t post it, Jon did @17.

  • Grace

    Michael @23

    YOU WROTE: ““Grace @11, Liberty U. isn’t Christian, it’s Republican.”

    Since the above is in quotes, I must tell you, I didn’t post it, Jon did @17.

  • Grace

    Michael @ 23

    Michael YOU WROTE: “Well, it’s fundamentalist Christian, and they generally dislike Democrats. Fundamentalist Christianity is inherently exclusive, as they believe people who don’t share their beliefs will burn in hell.”

    The only people that are going to burn in hell, are those who have not believed or have faith in Christ as their Savior.

    Michael YOU WROTE: ” At the same time, they have very strong political beliefs on things like homosexuality and abortion, and sometimes they have to set aside these beliefs to work with other groups who also share their political views (such as many Catholics). It’s something of a tightrope walk. It definitely works toward the Democrats advantage: These people detest Obama with a passion, but some will refuse to vote for the only person who could remove him from office because he’s a Mormon.”

    Yep you’re right, they have strong beliefs on homosexuality and abortion, I know almost no Christian Believers who believe the aforementioned to be Christian beliefs.

    I will not vote for Romney. He is a cultist, my conscience will not allow me to vote for such a man. God is in control. I believe with all my heart, that I as a Born Again Believer must stand steadfast in my Christian walk. I don’t detest Obama, I detest the way he’s run our country.

  • Grace

    Michael @ 23

    Michael YOU WROTE: “Well, it’s fundamentalist Christian, and they generally dislike Democrats. Fundamentalist Christianity is inherently exclusive, as they believe people who don’t share their beliefs will burn in hell.”

    The only people that are going to burn in hell, are those who have not believed or have faith in Christ as their Savior.

    Michael YOU WROTE: ” At the same time, they have very strong political beliefs on things like homosexuality and abortion, and sometimes they have to set aside these beliefs to work with other groups who also share their political views (such as many Catholics). It’s something of a tightrope walk. It definitely works toward the Democrats advantage: These people detest Obama with a passion, but some will refuse to vote for the only person who could remove him from office because he’s a Mormon.”

    Yep you’re right, they have strong beliefs on homosexuality and abortion, I know almost no Christian Believers who believe the aforementioned to be Christian beliefs.

    I will not vote for Romney. He is a cultist, my conscience will not allow me to vote for such a man. God is in control. I believe with all my heart, that I as a Born Again Believer must stand steadfast in my Christian walk. I don’t detest Obama, I detest the way he’s run our country.

  • Ken H

    A similarity between Islam and Mormonism is that when one lives as a non-Mormon in a majority LDS area, he or she is treated essentially as a dhimmi in a Muslim country. My wife grew up in northern Wyoming and experienced Mormon bigotry firsthand. She also experienced the same thing as a teacher in the Salt Lake City area– as a Lutheran, she was treated decently only as long as she was seen as a potential convert.

  • Ken H

    A similarity between Islam and Mormonism is that when one lives as a non-Mormon in a majority LDS area, he or she is treated essentially as a dhimmi in a Muslim country. My wife grew up in northern Wyoming and experienced Mormon bigotry firsthand. She also experienced the same thing as a teacher in the Salt Lake City area– as a Lutheran, she was treated decently only as long as she was seen as a potential convert.

  • CCB

    Wake up O’ sleepers in Christ. Another revelation has presented itself through Islamics and Mormons. The Muslims are leaving the door open for relationships that work to their advantage in prospering and dominating a region then state and eventually this country. Is this what we really want in this country? Religious tolerance sounds Great on the surface, but the reality is that there will be more division in this country than ever. Islamic laws speak for themselves. There is enough radical Muslims to make changes in this country if we see them as no threat. The only way to suppress this progression is for Christians to adhere in trust which manifests into action when Jesus says, ” Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”. (Matthew 28:19-20)

  • CCB

    Wake up O’ sleepers in Christ. Another revelation has presented itself through Islamics and Mormons. The Muslims are leaving the door open for relationships that work to their advantage in prospering and dominating a region then state and eventually this country. Is this what we really want in this country? Religious tolerance sounds Great on the surface, but the reality is that there will be more division in this country than ever. Islamic laws speak for themselves. There is enough radical Muslims to make changes in this country if we see them as no threat. The only way to suppress this progression is for Christians to adhere in trust which manifests into action when Jesus says, ” Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”. (Matthew 28:19-20)

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Ken H, has a good point… Mormons complain about mormon bashing, but seriously they make it fairly easy not to get along….
    Of course there are many different similarities between the religions and the cultures they have spawned. There are also quite a few dissimilarities.
    They tend also to be as dry as the climates they inhabit…. It’s a shame, deserts are great for growing grapes.
    The obvious objection to this comparison though has already been hinted at, Polytheism vrs monotheism, though that finds common ground in both rejecting the Triune God. I read an article in the Salt Lake Tribune a few years ago where a Mormon was trying to proselytize Jews (and living ones at that!) with an argument that they both reject the trinity. Of course your average mormon will lie straight faced to you and tell you they believe the Trinity, and only after a long discussion will he cop to knowing you both mean different things by this. (Insufferable dishonesty runs rampant with this culture). Funny though as the Jews challenged him right after concerning the fact that they beleive there are many Gods.
    And this goes to a more fundamental level. Today Muslims are given undue credit for the Cosmological argument for God’s existence. Kalam may have used it and tweaked it, and William Lane Craig may have found his explanation of it to be helpful, but it was Aristotle who first recorded this argument. (As an aside, William Lane Craig makes great use of this argument, but his own religion scares the hell out of me, and makes me wonder what the difference is between his judgmentalism and that of Islam. Sometimes I think these apologists should spend some time learning a bit about the religion they are supposedly defending.) That tangent aside. Islam can make use of the cosmological argument. Behind Islam is a concept of a god that is viable at least on a philisophical level. Mormonism doesn’t have this. The Mormon concept of god reminds me of somesort of comic book hero. He isn’t eternal himself, he is not outside of time and the creator of time and space or the universe. In the mormon concept of god, he’s a man just like us, who was once a spirit baby just like us, who is eternal not in that he has no beginning, but in that he has no end. And that is not the meaning of eternal, qualifies for immortal, but not eternal. The universe has always been here in Mormon thought, the universe is eternal, no big bang, not creation ex nihilo.
    But yeah, all that stuff about angels and prophecies, dubious characters of their founders, preoccupation with sex (really it is all they have left, all other fun and recreation seems to be forbidden). totalitarian control of the people etc. There are a lot of similarities.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Ken H, has a good point… Mormons complain about mormon bashing, but seriously they make it fairly easy not to get along….
    Of course there are many different similarities between the religions and the cultures they have spawned. There are also quite a few dissimilarities.
    They tend also to be as dry as the climates they inhabit…. It’s a shame, deserts are great for growing grapes.
    The obvious objection to this comparison though has already been hinted at, Polytheism vrs monotheism, though that finds common ground in both rejecting the Triune God. I read an article in the Salt Lake Tribune a few years ago where a Mormon was trying to proselytize Jews (and living ones at that!) with an argument that they both reject the trinity. Of course your average mormon will lie straight faced to you and tell you they believe the Trinity, and only after a long discussion will he cop to knowing you both mean different things by this. (Insufferable dishonesty runs rampant with this culture). Funny though as the Jews challenged him right after concerning the fact that they beleive there are many Gods.
    And this goes to a more fundamental level. Today Muslims are given undue credit for the Cosmological argument for God’s existence. Kalam may have used it and tweaked it, and William Lane Craig may have found his explanation of it to be helpful, but it was Aristotle who first recorded this argument. (As an aside, William Lane Craig makes great use of this argument, but his own religion scares the hell out of me, and makes me wonder what the difference is between his judgmentalism and that of Islam. Sometimes I think these apologists should spend some time learning a bit about the religion they are supposedly defending.) That tangent aside. Islam can make use of the cosmological argument. Behind Islam is a concept of a god that is viable at least on a philisophical level. Mormonism doesn’t have this. The Mormon concept of god reminds me of somesort of comic book hero. He isn’t eternal himself, he is not outside of time and the creator of time and space or the universe. In the mormon concept of god, he’s a man just like us, who was once a spirit baby just like us, who is eternal not in that he has no beginning, but in that he has no end. And that is not the meaning of eternal, qualifies for immortal, but not eternal. The universe has always been here in Mormon thought, the universe is eternal, no big bang, not creation ex nihilo.
    But yeah, all that stuff about angels and prophecies, dubious characters of their founders, preoccupation with sex (really it is all they have left, all other fun and recreation seems to be forbidden). totalitarian control of the people etc. There are a lot of similarities.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    CCB,
    trying to bury as many of them as I can in those waters….

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    CCB,
    trying to bury as many of them as I can in those waters….

  • larry

    This should be no surprise to a Lutheran. This is why Luther could say in one single breath that there is little day light between the pope, the sacramentarians and the turks. There’s variant “takes” on certain teaching here, there and yonder but the fundamental root is the old serpent’s enthusiam in which at length they wish to deal with God without His Word, even if they “quote” and “otherwise use” His Word.

    Some “enthusiam” formalizes it and leads top down like the popal church that puts revelation in the hands of the church and priesthood. Others put revelation in the individual. These two can oppose each other, not on grounds of doctrine per se but “where the revelation comes from and the authority that resides therein, either in the “top down system” or the more “populace system”. In a nutshell enthusiam can be classified into two major categories:

    1. Revelation comes in and through and power is retained within a more totalitarian system that is theologically (theology of glory) the policital equivalent to a dictatorship, oligarchy or theocracy.

    Or

    2. Revelation comes from within the individual and power is retained within a more democratic system that ist theologically (TOG) the political equivalent to an egalitarianism or social equality.

    The key is they wish, somewhere in the system that ends up permeating all their theology, to deal with God without His Word, hence enthusiam or original sin. So that at the end of it all, when all is sumed up, said and done how one knows one is saved is ultimately revealed not in the Word only. Either a pope becomes the mediator or the person themselves via the revealation.

    This is why Luther could see little day light between them and he was right.

  • larry

    This should be no surprise to a Lutheran. This is why Luther could say in one single breath that there is little day light between the pope, the sacramentarians and the turks. There’s variant “takes” on certain teaching here, there and yonder but the fundamental root is the old serpent’s enthusiam in which at length they wish to deal with God without His Word, even if they “quote” and “otherwise use” His Word.

    Some “enthusiam” formalizes it and leads top down like the popal church that puts revelation in the hands of the church and priesthood. Others put revelation in the individual. These two can oppose each other, not on grounds of doctrine per se but “where the revelation comes from and the authority that resides therein, either in the “top down system” or the more “populace system”. In a nutshell enthusiam can be classified into two major categories:

    1. Revelation comes in and through and power is retained within a more totalitarian system that is theologically (theology of glory) the policital equivalent to a dictatorship, oligarchy or theocracy.

    Or

    2. Revelation comes from within the individual and power is retained within a more democratic system that ist theologically (TOG) the political equivalent to an egalitarianism or social equality.

    The key is they wish, somewhere in the system that ends up permeating all their theology, to deal with God without His Word, hence enthusiam or original sin. So that at the end of it all, when all is sumed up, said and done how one knows one is saved is ultimately revealed not in the Word only. Either a pope becomes the mediator or the person themselves via the revealation.

    This is why Luther could see little day light between them and he was right.

  • Mark

    I happened upon your site. I also haappen to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Have been my entire life — 62 now. I am well educated and informed. Virtually every thing I read of your discription of me and my faith is false. To make it clear, I have an abiding faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as my redeemer and savior, and as God. I beleive in the Christ of the Bible not the Christ of the post-Christian philosophers who chreated creeds based on Greek philosophy.

  • Mark

    I happened upon your site. I also haappen to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Have been my entire life — 62 now. I am well educated and informed. Virtually every thing I read of your discription of me and my faith is false. To make it clear, I have an abiding faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as my redeemer and savior, and as God. I beleive in the Christ of the Bible not the Christ of the post-Christian philosophers who chreated creeds based on Greek philosophy.


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