Pentecost & Memorial Day

Two big holidays this weekend, one in the church year and the other national.  I hope you had a meaningful Pentecost on Sunday and that you will have a meaningful and enjoyable Memorial Day today.

So let’s play a holiday game.  Connect the dots.  What connections can you make between what we celebrate on Pentecost (the gift of the Holy Spirit, the birthday of the Church) and what we celebrate on Memorial Day (the sacrifice of our troops, in some locales the memory of those in general who have died, the beginning of the summer vacation season)?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Jack

    Pentecost and Memorial Weekend just happen to coincide, this year.

    I was confirmed on Sunday, May27, 1956. That Sunday was Trinity Sunday, and Memorial Day was Wednesday, May 30th.

    Pentecost is on Sunday, May 19th, next year. Memorial Day is Monday, May 27th.

    I served three years on active duty in the US Army. I see no way to connect Pentecost to Memorial Day, and I’m not going to spend any time trying to do so.

  • Jack

    Pentecost and Memorial Weekend just happen to coincide, this year.

    I was confirmed on Sunday, May27, 1956. That Sunday was Trinity Sunday, and Memorial Day was Wednesday, May 30th.

    Pentecost is on Sunday, May 19th, next year. Memorial Day is Monday, May 27th.

    I served three years on active duty in the US Army. I see no way to connect Pentecost to Memorial Day, and I’m not going to spend any time trying to do so.

  • Pete

    What Jack said. Although, Pentecost is 50 days after Easter and there are 50 stars on the American flag. That must be it.

  • Pete

    What Jack said. Although, Pentecost is 50 days after Easter and there are 50 stars on the American flag. That must be it.

  • http://plantcityladyandfriends.blogspot.com Carol Noren Johnson

    We are camping this weekend and we worshipped at a church yesterday where the pastor had veterans stand, and he preached on Pentecost. The offertory was a medley of “Spirit of the Living God” and “My Country ‘Tis of Thee”.

  • http://plantcityladyandfriends.blogspot.com Carol Noren Johnson

    We are camping this weekend and we worshipped at a church yesterday where the pastor had veterans stand, and he preached on Pentecost. The offertory was a medley of “Spirit of the Living God” and “My Country ‘Tis of Thee”.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    “What connections can you make between what we celebrate on Pentecost (the gift of the Holy Spirit, the birthday of the Church) and what we celebrate on Memorial Day (the sacrifice of our troops, in some locales the memory of those in general who have died, the beginning of the summer vacation season)?”

    None. I tried, but, no. So, my sermon was exclusively about Pentecost and I regulated Memorial Day observance to the Altar prayers.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    “What connections can you make between what we celebrate on Pentecost (the gift of the Holy Spirit, the birthday of the Church) and what we celebrate on Memorial Day (the sacrifice of our troops, in some locales the memory of those in general who have died, the beginning of the summer vacation season)?”

    None. I tried, but, no. So, my sermon was exclusively about Pentecost and I regulated Memorial Day observance to the Altar prayers.

  • Booklover

    John 12:24 “Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.”

    Pentecost–Jesus had to die in order for the church to grow. The Holy Spirit stayed with us as a helper.

    Memorial Day–The soldiers had to die to make us free. Their “spirit” remains with us as a reminder of what they sacrificed so that we don’t throw away that freedom or take it lightly.

    By the way, this is the first day in over a month that I have been able to access this blog. Every other day it said “Site Temporarily Down.” I don’t know why I couldn’t and everyone else could. Anyway, I am thankful. Finally.

  • Booklover

    John 12:24 “Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.”

    Pentecost–Jesus had to die in order for the church to grow. The Holy Spirit stayed with us as a helper.

    Memorial Day–The soldiers had to die to make us free. Their “spirit” remains with us as a reminder of what they sacrificed so that we don’t throw away that freedom or take it lightly.

    By the way, this is the first day in over a month that I have been able to access this blog. Every other day it said “Site Temporarily Down.” I don’t know why I couldn’t and everyone else could. Anyway, I am thankful. Finally.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Huh, Booklover! I’ve been hearing this, even though our server problems have been solved. I’m told that this helps, whatever it means: “Empty your cache.” Then try again.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Huh, Booklover! I’ve been hearing this, even though our server problems have been solved. I’m told that this helps, whatever it means: “Empty your cache.” Then try again.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    But, people, use your imaginations. You don’t see a connection between the Holy Spirit and death? Between the Holy Spirit and sacrifice? Between the Holy Spirit and remembrance?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    But, people, use your imaginations. You don’t see a connection between the Holy Spirit and death? Between the Holy Spirit and sacrifice? Between the Holy Spirit and remembrance?

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    I think it’s always a good idea to remember those brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us, and the battles that they surely endured in their walk upon this earth.

    Memorial Day is a great day to remember those who gave their all for this country…and a great day to remember the One who gave His all, for us, and for that great cloud of witnesses before us.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    I think it’s always a good idea to remember those brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before us, and the battles that they surely endured in their walk upon this earth.

    Memorial Day is a great day to remember those who gave their all for this country…and a great day to remember the One who gave His all, for us, and for that great cloud of witnesses before us.

  • Rose

    Sorry, Dr. Veith, ‘What Jack said.’
    But I’ll add an idea from a friend:
    ‘This morning at St. Francis the readings will be in Tagalog, Swahili, and Malayalam. Speaking in tongues indeed!’
    Although these were native or trained speakers, the effect must have been interesting.

  • Rose

    Sorry, Dr. Veith, ‘What Jack said.’
    But I’ll add an idea from a friend:
    ‘This morning at St. Francis the readings will be in Tagalog, Swahili, and Malayalam. Speaking in tongues indeed!’
    Although these were native or trained speakers, the effect must have been interesting.

  • Grace

    Gene Veith,

    “What connections can you make between what we celebrate on Pentecost (the gift of the Holy Spirit, the birthday of the Church) and what we celebrate on Memorial Day (the sacrifice of our troops, in some locales the memory of those in general who have died, the beginning of the summer vacation season)?”

    There is no connection, none.

    Christ sacrificed HIMSELF on the Cross, that should not be confused with a man or woman going to war and losing their life in the process. The two are not connected. Christ’s died for our sins, that’s the biggest gift, the most important gift anyone has given man, Christ alone must be praised Worshiped, exalted above and beyond, anyone on this earth.

  • Grace

    Gene Veith,

    “What connections can you make between what we celebrate on Pentecost (the gift of the Holy Spirit, the birthday of the Church) and what we celebrate on Memorial Day (the sacrifice of our troops, in some locales the memory of those in general who have died, the beginning of the summer vacation season)?”

    There is no connection, none.

    Christ sacrificed HIMSELF on the Cross, that should not be confused with a man or woman going to war and losing their life in the process. The two are not connected. Christ’s died for our sins, that’s the biggest gift, the most important gift anyone has given man, Christ alone must be praised Worshiped, exalted above and beyond, anyone on this earth.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    One may our Justification by Christ as a pattern for our exercise of our sanctification as St. John does, “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.” 1 John 3:16
    Yet, this is still not Pentecost per se. I fear intertwining them to much may lead to confusion and misunderstanding in the congregation.
    Perhaps by living out our spiritual gifts, and not keeping our light under a bushel, we are being good stewards of the sacrifice of our countrymen to provide us with freedom of worship.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    One may our Justification by Christ as a pattern for our exercise of our sanctification as St. John does, “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.” 1 John 3:16
    Yet, this is still not Pentecost per se. I fear intertwining them to much may lead to confusion and misunderstanding in the congregation.
    Perhaps by living out our spiritual gifts, and not keeping our light under a bushel, we are being good stewards of the sacrifice of our countrymen to provide us with freedom of worship.

  • fws

    hmm.
    both are on a calendar. different calendars.
    both are decreed by an earthly government.
    both are laws.
    both commemorate something
    both are about doing carnal righeousness.

  • fws

    hmm.
    both are on a calendar. different calendars.
    both are decreed by an earthly government.
    both are laws.
    both commemorate something
    both are about doing carnal righeousness.

  • Grace

    carnal

    Definition:

    1. Relating to the physical and especially sexual appetites: carnal desire.
    2. Worldly or earthly; temporal: the carnal world.
    3. Of or relating to the body or flesh; bodily: carnal remains.

    carnalism, carnality
    the practice of finding satisfaction in activities related to fleshly desires and appetites, especially the sexual. — carnal, adj.

    Carnality has nothing to do with Pentecost, or Memorial Day.

  • Grace

    carnal

    Definition:

    1. Relating to the physical and especially sexual appetites: carnal desire.
    2. Worldly or earthly; temporal: the carnal world.
    3. Of or relating to the body or flesh; bodily: carnal remains.

    carnalism, carnality
    the practice of finding satisfaction in activities related to fleshly desires and appetites, especially the sexual. — carnal, adj.

    Carnality has nothing to do with Pentecost, or Memorial Day.

  • fws

    grace @ 13

    carnal=flesh Grace.

    My context here?
    Romans 8: flesh/carnal vs spirit/Spirit

    Flesh is all things that will perish with the earth.
    Spirit is that alone which will endure forever.

    All our virtue and best good works. Poof! Why? It’s all carnal.

    So what is it, alone , that will endure forever according to Romans 8? Hint? It is Good Works. And it is not OUR good works.

  • fws

    grace @ 13

    carnal=flesh Grace.

    My context here?
    Romans 8: flesh/carnal vs spirit/Spirit

    Flesh is all things that will perish with the earth.
    Spirit is that alone which will endure forever.

    All our virtue and best good works. Poof! Why? It’s all carnal.

    So what is it, alone , that will endure forever according to Romans 8? Hint? It is Good Works. And it is not OUR good works.

  • Grace

    This thread is about Pentecost and Memorial Day – So “poof” yourself!

  • Grace

    This thread is about Pentecost and Memorial Day – So “poof” yourself!

  • Grace

    Christ told the Apostles NOT TO DEPART from Jerusalem, but wait for the “promise of the Father” – they would be “baptized with the HOLY Ghost not many days hence.

    2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

    3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1

    Below we see “they were all filled with the HOLY Ghost” – that must have been spectacular.

    1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2

    Below, a stern WARNING:

    28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

    30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. Mark 3

  • Grace

    Christ told the Apostles NOT TO DEPART from Jerusalem, but wait for the “promise of the Father” – they would be “baptized with the HOLY Ghost not many days hence.

    2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

    3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1

    Below we see “they were all filled with the HOLY Ghost” – that must have been spectacular.

    1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2

    Below, a stern WARNING:

    28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

    30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. Mark 3

  • SKPeterson

    Pentecost has not been mandated as a celebration by the Church. It was mandated by God Himself in the OT. As a spring planting festival occurring 50 (pente) days after Passover. There is much to be made about the planting of seed to provide daily bread, and the work of the Holy Spirit to sow the seeds of faith through the provision of Word and Sacrament.

  • SKPeterson

    Pentecost has not been mandated as a celebration by the Church. It was mandated by God Himself in the OT. As a spring planting festival occurring 50 (pente) days after Passover. There is much to be made about the planting of seed to provide daily bread, and the work of the Holy Spirit to sow the seeds of faith through the provision of Word and Sacrament.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “Greater love hath no man than this that he give up his life for his friends.” Jesus Himself used examples of earthly sacrifice to explain His sacrifice. So since He is sinless and never made a mistake, we can make such connections also.

    But you all are still not getting what I’m asking for. I’m not saying there is an intrinsic connection, or that isn’t more than a coincidence that they are close to each other this year, or that we should relate the sacred and the secular holidays in some way. I’m asking if you can make connections between what each is celebrating.

    I guess you can’t. That’s fine, but why are you commenting if you don’t have anything to say about the thread?

    Our pastor made some interesting connections, drawing on the Old Testament readings for the day about Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones, between cemeteries (which many of us go to today) and the Holy Spirit (as it says in that Scripture) giving life to those dry bones (which will happen in the End Times Resurrection, but also happens when the Holy Spirit brings us to faith).

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “Greater love hath no man than this that he give up his life for his friends.” Jesus Himself used examples of earthly sacrifice to explain His sacrifice. So since He is sinless and never made a mistake, we can make such connections also.

    But you all are still not getting what I’m asking for. I’m not saying there is an intrinsic connection, or that isn’t more than a coincidence that they are close to each other this year, or that we should relate the sacred and the secular holidays in some way. I’m asking if you can make connections between what each is celebrating.

    I guess you can’t. That’s fine, but why are you commenting if you don’t have anything to say about the thread?

    Our pastor made some interesting connections, drawing on the Old Testament readings for the day about Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones, between cemeteries (which many of us go to today) and the Holy Spirit (as it says in that Scripture) giving life to those dry bones (which will happen in the End Times Resurrection, but also happens when the Holy Spirit brings us to faith).

  • Grace

    SKPeterson,

    You are right, Pentecost is not mandated, however Resurrection Sunday and the Birth of Christ are not either. However we do celebrate them.

    God has done so much for us, I am so grateful!

    Blessings SKP

  • Grace

    SKPeterson,

    You are right, Pentecost is not mandated, however Resurrection Sunday and the Birth of Christ are not either. However we do celebrate them.

    God has done so much for us, I am so grateful!

    Blessings SKP

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith @ 18

    “I guess you can’t. That’s fine, but why are you commenting if you don’t have anything to say about the thread?”

    I have commented because I believe the two are so different, have nothing in common, there is no comparison – I have posted to point out just why I believe that way.

    One, PENTECOST is from the HOLY Spirit which has nothing to do with Memorial Day. Lots of people have died fighting wars, but only ONE died to save us from our sin - Jesus Christ our Savior. That’s the difference, the two aren’t comparable.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith @ 18

    “I guess you can’t. That’s fine, but why are you commenting if you don’t have anything to say about the thread?”

    I have commented because I believe the two are so different, have nothing in common, there is no comparison – I have posted to point out just why I believe that way.

    One, PENTECOST is from the HOLY Spirit which has nothing to do with Memorial Day. Lots of people have died fighting wars, but only ONE died to save us from our sin - Jesus Christ our Savior. That’s the difference, the two aren’t comparable.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Did you read what I posted about cemeteries and how the Holy Spirit delivers us from death?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Did you read what I posted about cemeteries and how the Holy Spirit delivers us from death?

  • Booklover

    Wasn’t my comment even close? If not, that’s OK. School is out soon, summer will begin, and my brain cells will recover! :-)

  • Booklover

    Wasn’t my comment even close? If not, that’s OK. School is out soon, summer will begin, and my brain cells will recover! :-)

  • Grace

    Gene Veith,

    The LORD will only receive those who have obtained Salvation through Jesus Christ, as you well know. This in no way, (cemeteries” included) have anything to do with Pentecost.

    As for Memorial Day – many of us weep for those who we lost, and those who are LOST, because they didn’t believe. Memorial Day is a sad day, especially for those who are not going to spend Eternity with Christ, no matter how well they fought, or what they did in this life. It’s all about believing in Christ.

    There are countless men and women who didn’t/don’t believe in Christ as Savior, but serve/serve in the military. That’s a sad thought, but true. Just as there are loved ones who never, then or now, believed in Christ.

    The passage of Scripture which I refer to often, as a means of making individuals both Believers and un-Believers aware of how few will inherit Eternal Life. It’s the “gate” thing, it’s the difference between “wide” for the un-Believers, and “narrow” for those who Believe.

    Jesus made it so clear:

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Matthew 7

    Dr. Veith, Pentecost is more than important, it stands alone, it has no comparison to anything other than the HOLY Spirit coming, to those in Jerusalem, gathered together witnessing, and being part of that incredible time.

  • Grace

    Gene Veith,

    The LORD will only receive those who have obtained Salvation through Jesus Christ, as you well know. This in no way, (cemeteries” included) have anything to do with Pentecost.

    As for Memorial Day – many of us weep for those who we lost, and those who are LOST, because they didn’t believe. Memorial Day is a sad day, especially for those who are not going to spend Eternity with Christ, no matter how well they fought, or what they did in this life. It’s all about believing in Christ.

    There are countless men and women who didn’t/don’t believe in Christ as Savior, but serve/serve in the military. That’s a sad thought, but true. Just as there are loved ones who never, then or now, believed in Christ.

    The passage of Scripture which I refer to often, as a means of making individuals both Believers and un-Believers aware of how few will inherit Eternal Life. It’s the “gate” thing, it’s the difference between “wide” for the un-Believers, and “narrow” for those who Believe.

    Jesus made it so clear:

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Matthew 7

    Dr. Veith, Pentecost is more than important, it stands alone, it has no comparison to anything other than the HOLY Spirit coming, to those in Jerusalem, gathered together witnessing, and being part of that incredible time.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith @21

    YOU WROTE: “Did you read what I posted about cemeteries and how the Holy Spirit delivers us from death?”

    2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

    3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

    4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    Galatians 1

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith @21

    YOU WROTE: “Did you read what I posted about cemeteries and how the Holy Spirit delivers us from death?”

    2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

    3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

    4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

    5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    Galatians 1

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Booklover, yes, you were on target.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Booklover, yes, you were on target.

  • Grace

    Booklover @ 5

    YOU WROTE: Pentecost–Jesus had to die in order for the church to grow. The Holy Spirit stayed with us as a helper.

    Booklover, Jesus died to forgive us of our sins, without HIS death and shed blood, we would dead in our sins. The Church did not exist until Christ came.

    The HOLY Ghost did not come as a “comforter” until after Christ had resurrected. The HOLY Ghost is what Pentecost is all about. Jesus Christ spoke of the HOLY Ghost. See passage below:

    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    John 14:26

  • Grace

    Booklover @ 5

    YOU WROTE: Pentecost–Jesus had to die in order for the church to grow. The Holy Spirit stayed with us as a helper.

    Booklover, Jesus died to forgive us of our sins, without HIS death and shed blood, we would dead in our sins. The Church did not exist until Christ came.

    The HOLY Ghost did not come as a “comforter” until after Christ had resurrected. The HOLY Ghost is what Pentecost is all about. Jesus Christ spoke of the HOLY Ghost. See passage below:

    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    John 14:26

  • Dan Kempin

    Dr. Veith,

    I hesitate to share this, because I feel as though it is not mine to share, but since you are making a prolonged appeal, here is a funeral sermon that I was privileged to preach for a Navy Corpsman (they are the medics of the Marine Corps) who was killed in action while saving the life of a wounded marine. It’s not Pentecost, per se, but I do make the assertion that Aaron’s service and sacrifice (vocation, I suppose) was an echo of Christ’s sacrifice. More “Good Friday and Memorial Day,” I suppose, but it was a powerful connection for me.

    http://www.sjlmidland.org/pastors-blog/entry/funeral-sermon-for-aaron-ullom

    (If you feel this is inappropriately placed here, please feel free to remove it.)

  • Dan Kempin

    Dr. Veith,

    I hesitate to share this, because I feel as though it is not mine to share, but since you are making a prolonged appeal, here is a funeral sermon that I was privileged to preach for a Navy Corpsman (they are the medics of the Marine Corps) who was killed in action while saving the life of a wounded marine. It’s not Pentecost, per se, but I do make the assertion that Aaron’s service and sacrifice (vocation, I suppose) was an echo of Christ’s sacrifice. More “Good Friday and Memorial Day,” I suppose, but it was a powerful connection for me.

    http://www.sjlmidland.org/pastors-blog/entry/funeral-sermon-for-aaron-ullom

    (If you feel this is inappropriately placed here, please feel free to remove it.)

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Wonderful, Dan. That makes a fine Memorial Day meditation.

    Grace, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you. I don’t see what you are arguing about.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Wonderful, Dan. That makes a fine Memorial Day meditation.

    Grace, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you. I don’t see what you are arguing about.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you. I don’t see what you are arguing about.”

    I am making the point which is, there is no comparison regarding Pentecost, which was the HOLY Ghost coming, as Christ promised as a comforter.

    Memorial Day has nothing to do with Pentecost. Christ came to this earth, knowing full well, HE would die for the sins of man, (Isaiah 53) IF they Believed upon him.

    For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.
    Isaiah 48:11

    God makes it clear he doesn’t give/share HIS Glory. That means individuals, should not try and compare the HOLY Spirit’s arrival at Pentecost with Memorial Day, which means something entirely different.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith

    YOU WROTE: “Grace, I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you. I don’t see what you are arguing about.”

    I am making the point which is, there is no comparison regarding Pentecost, which was the HOLY Ghost coming, as Christ promised as a comforter.

    Memorial Day has nothing to do with Pentecost. Christ came to this earth, knowing full well, HE would die for the sins of man, (Isaiah 53) IF they Believed upon him.

    For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.
    Isaiah 48:11

    God makes it clear he doesn’t give/share HIS Glory. That means individuals, should not try and compare the HOLY Spirit’s arrival at Pentecost with Memorial Day, which means something entirely different.

  • fws

    Dr Veith @ 7, 18, 21

    [7] But, people, use your imaginations. You don’t see a connection between the Holy Spirit and death? Between the Holy Spirit and sacrifice? Between the Holy Spirit and remembrance?..[18] .I’m asking if you can make connections between what each is celebrating….[21] Our pastor made some interesting connections, drawing on the Old Testament readings for the day about Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones, between cemeteries (which many of us go to today) and the Holy Spirit (as it says in that Scripture) giving life to those dry bones (which will happen in the End Times Resurrection, but also happens when the Holy Spirit brings us to faith)….[21] Did you read what I posted about cemeteries and how the Holy Spirit delivers us from death?

    Pastor Sponner nailed it dr Veith!

    “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.” 1 John 3:16

    DEATH AS A SACRIFICE WE MAKE: Pentecost: This passage is, obviously, pure Law! The Law always kills. In this case, the Law is telling us to “fight the good fight” by ordering our Old Adam into death to preserve the life of our neighbor. In this sense sanctification=death just as Pastor Sponner is telling us. And the connection to pentecost? Baptism? What Baptism does is give us a new life by binding us to the Sacrifice of Another by giving us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts. And the result? We are to daily drown the old adam , sacrifice him, kill him. Why? for the good of our neighbor!

    DEATH AS OUR SACRIFICE: Memorial Day: Our sacrifice of Old Adam mirrors the meaning of Memorial day. It is for us to kill our old adam in sacrifice for the temporal good if others.

    LIFE IN THE SACRIFICE OF ANOTHER: Pentecost: is about the Sacrifice of Christ into death, bringing Life to Mankind. God give us a new beginning by the Sacrifice of another. Pentecost is where we become justified by that Sacrifice. Justification, in this sense, is where Christ is infused into our heart. Sinful (ie dead) men become holy (ie living) men.

    LIFE IN THE SACRIFICE OF OTHERS: Memorial day: Men and women sacrificed their life so that we might go about our lives.

    My vote is that pastor Sponner gets the prize for providing us with that Law passage that commands us to die, and so follow the Christ as Example. The command to follow the Example of Christ is a command to die. And it kills us as well. The Law always kills.

  • fws

    Dr Veith @ 7, 18, 21

    [7] But, people, use your imaginations. You don’t see a connection between the Holy Spirit and death? Between the Holy Spirit and sacrifice? Between the Holy Spirit and remembrance?..[18] .I’m asking if you can make connections between what each is celebrating….[21] Our pastor made some interesting connections, drawing on the Old Testament readings for the day about Ezekiel’s vision of the dry bones, between cemeteries (which many of us go to today) and the Holy Spirit (as it says in that Scripture) giving life to those dry bones (which will happen in the End Times Resurrection, but also happens when the Holy Spirit brings us to faith)….[21] Did you read what I posted about cemeteries and how the Holy Spirit delivers us from death?

    Pastor Sponner nailed it dr Veith!

    “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.” 1 John 3:16

    DEATH AS A SACRIFICE WE MAKE: Pentecost: This passage is, obviously, pure Law! The Law always kills. In this case, the Law is telling us to “fight the good fight” by ordering our Old Adam into death to preserve the life of our neighbor. In this sense sanctification=death just as Pastor Sponner is telling us. And the connection to pentecost? Baptism? What Baptism does is give us a new life by binding us to the Sacrifice of Another by giving us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts. And the result? We are to daily drown the old adam , sacrifice him, kill him. Why? for the good of our neighbor!

    DEATH AS OUR SACRIFICE: Memorial Day: Our sacrifice of Old Adam mirrors the meaning of Memorial day. It is for us to kill our old adam in sacrifice for the temporal good if others.

    LIFE IN THE SACRIFICE OF ANOTHER: Pentecost: is about the Sacrifice of Christ into death, bringing Life to Mankind. God give us a new beginning by the Sacrifice of another. Pentecost is where we become justified by that Sacrifice. Justification, in this sense, is where Christ is infused into our heart. Sinful (ie dead) men become holy (ie living) men.

    LIFE IN THE SACRIFICE OF OTHERS: Memorial day: Men and women sacrificed their life so that we might go about our lives.

    My vote is that pastor Sponner gets the prize for providing us with that Law passage that commands us to die, and so follow the Christ as Example. The command to follow the Example of Christ is a command to die. And it kills us as well. The Law always kills.

  • fws

    this from wikipedia: comments in [brakets] are mine…

    Scholars,[37][38][39][40] following the lead of sociologist Robert Bellah, often make the argument that the United States has a secular “civil religion” – one with no association with any religious denomination or viewpoint [lie: association with deistic-"christianity" I propose] – that has incorporated Memorial Day as a sacred event.

    The obligation of both collective and individual to carry out God’s will on earth is a theme that lies deep in the American tradition.

    With the Civil War, a new theme of death, sacrifice and rebirth enters the civil religion. [!!!]

    Memorial Day gave ritual expression to these themes, integrating the local community into a sense of nationalism. The American civil religion, in contrast to that of France, was never anticlerical or militantly secular; in contrast to Britain, it was not tied to a specific denomination, such as the Church of England.

    The Americans borrowed from [christian!] different religious traditions so that the average American saw no conflict [ie no diference!] between the two, and deep levels of personal motivation were aligned with attaining national goals.[41]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Day

  • fws

    this from wikipedia: comments in [brakets] are mine…

    Scholars,[37][38][39][40] following the lead of sociologist Robert Bellah, often make the argument that the United States has a secular “civil religion” – one with no association with any religious denomination or viewpoint [lie: association with deistic-"christianity" I propose] – that has incorporated Memorial Day as a sacred event.

    The obligation of both collective and individual to carry out God’s will on earth is a theme that lies deep in the American tradition.

    With the Civil War, a new theme of death, sacrifice and rebirth enters the civil religion. [!!!]

    Memorial Day gave ritual expression to these themes, integrating the local community into a sense of nationalism. The American civil religion, in contrast to that of France, was never anticlerical or militantly secular; in contrast to Britain, it was not tied to a specific denomination, such as the Church of England.

    The Americans borrowed from [christian!] different religious traditions so that the average American saw no conflict [ie no diference!] between the two, and deep levels of personal motivation were aligned with attaining national goals.[41]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Day

  • fws

    Wow Pastor Kempin. Now it will need to be you AND my former pastor in LA that will come and do my funeral up right here in Brasil.

    You can lean a little harder into that “he was a sinner and needed a savior” in my case. My friends and family will be looking for that actually.

    Excellent.

    Grace: Read the sermon. No one is disagreeing with you here. You will see that when you read the sermon. I am pretty sure!

  • fws

    Wow Pastor Kempin. Now it will need to be you AND my former pastor in LA that will come and do my funeral up right here in Brasil.

    You can lean a little harder into that “he was a sinner and needed a savior” in my case. My friends and family will be looking for that actually.

    Excellent.

    Grace: Read the sermon. No one is disagreeing with you here. You will see that when you read the sermon. I am pretty sure!

  • WisdomLover

    Is the Holy Ghost what Pentecost is all about?

    No.

    As if that weren’t enough, there’s even more to the day than the coming of the Spirit.

    “Pentecost” was the Greek name given to the holiday of Shavuot a Jewish holiday commemorating the giving of the Law on Sinai.

    No understanding of the day is complete unless you recognize that it was the day on which God chose both to give the Law and to give the Spirit.

    That connection is deep in ways I don’t know how to express.

  • WisdomLover

    Is the Holy Ghost what Pentecost is all about?

    No.

    As if that weren’t enough, there’s even more to the day than the coming of the Spirit.

    “Pentecost” was the Greek name given to the holiday of Shavuot a Jewish holiday commemorating the giving of the Law on Sinai.

    No understanding of the day is complete unless you recognize that it was the day on which God chose both to give the Law and to give the Spirit.

    That connection is deep in ways I don’t know how to express.

  • Grace

    Pentecost, occurring on Whit Sunday commemorating the descent of the Holy Ghost on the apostles

    (Non-Christian Religions / Judaism) Also called Feast of Weeks Shavuot Judaism the harvest festival celebrated fifty days after the second day of Passover on the sixth and seventh days of Sivan, and commemorating the giving the Torah on Mount Sinai”

    For the Apostles, the meaning is different than it would be for Jews, or other non-Christians, who do not believe in Christ as Savior.

  • Grace

    Pentecost, occurring on Whit Sunday commemorating the descent of the Holy Ghost on the apostles

    (Non-Christian Religions / Judaism) Also called Feast of Weeks Shavuot Judaism the harvest festival celebrated fifty days after the second day of Passover on the sixth and seventh days of Sivan, and commemorating the giving the Torah on Mount Sinai”

    For the Apostles, the meaning is different than it would be for Jews, or other non-Christians, who do not believe in Christ as Savior.

  • Grace

    For Christian Believers, Pentecost is all about the HOLY Spirit.

  • Grace

    For Christian Believers, Pentecost is all about the HOLY Spirit.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@29):

    That means individuals, should not try and compare the HOLY Spirit’s arrival at Pentecost with Memorial Day, which means something entirely different.

    Man, legalism is sooooo boring.

    If you don’t want to partake in the conversation, if you don’t want to think, Grace, fine. But can’t you do that elsewhere, without trying to tell everyone else they can’t have a discussion, that they can’t think?

    I mean, why has it taken you twelve — twelve! — comments to try to drive home your agonizingly boring point that “There is no connection, none”?

    You’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time and energy telling people not to engage in conversation on this thread. Why? Don’t you have a hobby?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace said (@29):

    That means individuals, should not try and compare the HOLY Spirit’s arrival at Pentecost with Memorial Day, which means something entirely different.

    Man, legalism is sooooo boring.

    If you don’t want to partake in the conversation, if you don’t want to think, Grace, fine. But can’t you do that elsewhere, without trying to tell everyone else they can’t have a discussion, that they can’t think?

    I mean, why has it taken you twelve — twelve! — comments to try to drive home your agonizingly boring point that “There is no connection, none”?

    You’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time and energy telling people not to engage in conversation on this thread. Why? Don’t you have a hobby?

  • http://kamloopslutheran.org Pastor Gordon Heselton

    Actually Pentecost is really all about Christ. The work of the Holy Spirit is to bring and keep people in Christ. While the Spirit is noteworthy in Acts 2 in terms of the manifestation via tongues of fire, rushing wind, and speaking unlearned foriegn languages, the purpose of all this was for Peter and the Apostles, by the same Spirit, to boldly proclaim Jesus crucified and resurrected for forgiveness of their sins and the promise of eternal life. Simply note Peter’s sermon to those gathered for Pentecost and the result! 3000 added to the church that day alone. This, of course fits with what Jesus had told the disciples–the Comforter will bear witness of Him.
    Therefore the coincidental connection of Memorial Day (which we do not celebrate in Canada–our Remembrance Day is November 11th) is appropriate as a simple comparison to Christ’s sacrifice. It is a suitable illustration to connect the minds and hearts of hearers to the incomparable sacrifice of the Saviour.

  • http://kamloopslutheran.org Pastor Gordon Heselton

    Actually Pentecost is really all about Christ. The work of the Holy Spirit is to bring and keep people in Christ. While the Spirit is noteworthy in Acts 2 in terms of the manifestation via tongues of fire, rushing wind, and speaking unlearned foriegn languages, the purpose of all this was for Peter and the Apostles, by the same Spirit, to boldly proclaim Jesus crucified and resurrected for forgiveness of their sins and the promise of eternal life. Simply note Peter’s sermon to those gathered for Pentecost and the result! 3000 added to the church that day alone. This, of course fits with what Jesus had told the disciples–the Comforter will bear witness of Him.
    Therefore the coincidental connection of Memorial Day (which we do not celebrate in Canada–our Remembrance Day is November 11th) is appropriate as a simple comparison to Christ’s sacrifice. It is a suitable illustration to connect the minds and hearts of hearers to the incomparable sacrifice of the Saviour.


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