Women who want a divorce

The Washington Post has an ongoing feature about “myths.”  Last Sunday the topic was Five myths about marriage.  As usual, the piece combined the interesting with the dubious.   What stood out for me the most was this factoid:  Two-thirds of divorces are initiated by women.

We also know that women are hurt by divorce, taking a big economic hit and often thrown into the pressures of single motherhood.  Still, lots of women consider it to be worth it.   Recognizing that there are different stories for each couple, can you venture some reasons why such a large percentage of divorces are initiated by women?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Michael B.

    “We also know that women are hurt by divorce, taking a big economic hit and often thrown into the pressures of single motherhood”

    That is completely false. Divorce a guy, and you get half his assets, plus child support, plus support from the state. And you get to do it all on your terms. Also, the idea that you can just initiate divorce on a whim is rather a new one.

  • Michael B.

    “We also know that women are hurt by divorce, taking a big economic hit and often thrown into the pressures of single motherhood”

    That is completely false. Divorce a guy, and you get half his assets, plus child support, plus support from the state. And you get to do it all on your terms. Also, the idea that you can just initiate divorce on a whim is rather a new one.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I can think of two reasons:
    1) Alimony, and
    2) Child support.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I can think of two reasons:
    1) Alimony, and
    2) Child support.

  • Gary

    Men too often see getting married as an accomplishment, something to check off the list. It gives them a home context for the rest of their lives, and as long as things aren’t terrible at home, and as long as their marriage is satisfying very basic needs for them, it allows them to focus on their careers. (And perhaps also on helping to raise the children.) A man will tend to assume the relationship is OK unless his wife is loudly (painfully) raising issues. When the honeymoon’s over, the male attention moves on.

    Women, I think, demand more from the relationship itself, and they have higher expectations for what it could and should be. Some wives try valiantly for years to get their lunk-head husbands to understand the marriage has problems. I doubt of many leave their husbands on a whim, contra Michael (@1), but because of the child support and forms of state support he mentioned, there is no longer an impassible economic barrier to dumping the guy and trying to do better the next time around.

    I think women divorce because a meaningful marriage relationship actually MATTERS to them, and today they refuse to remain trapped in a relationship that’s never going to improve.

  • Gary

    Men too often see getting married as an accomplishment, something to check off the list. It gives them a home context for the rest of their lives, and as long as things aren’t terrible at home, and as long as their marriage is satisfying very basic needs for them, it allows them to focus on their careers. (And perhaps also on helping to raise the children.) A man will tend to assume the relationship is OK unless his wife is loudly (painfully) raising issues. When the honeymoon’s over, the male attention moves on.

    Women, I think, demand more from the relationship itself, and they have higher expectations for what it could and should be. Some wives try valiantly for years to get their lunk-head husbands to understand the marriage has problems. I doubt of many leave their husbands on a whim, contra Michael (@1), but because of the child support and forms of state support he mentioned, there is no longer an impassible economic barrier to dumping the guy and trying to do better the next time around.

    I think women divorce because a meaningful marriage relationship actually MATTERS to them, and today they refuse to remain trapped in a relationship that’s never going to improve.

  • Mary Jack

    Husbands can cruelly try to force abortion. I certainly understand fleeing a marriage to protect a baby, no matter the economic hit and subsequent single parenthood. For a friend who went through that, her husband then quit his job so that nothing could be taken from his paycheck to support his pregnant, soon-to-be-ex wife. Goes to show the law can’t force good out of people.

  • Mary Jack

    Husbands can cruelly try to force abortion. I certainly understand fleeing a marriage to protect a baby, no matter the economic hit and subsequent single parenthood. For a friend who went through that, her husband then quit his job so that nothing could be taken from his paycheck to support his pregnant, soon-to-be-ex wife. Goes to show the law can’t force good out of people.

  • George

    There is no answer I could give that wouldn’t make me sound sexist….

  • George

    There is no answer I could give that wouldn’t make me sound sexist….

  • Rev. F. Bischoff

    I have noticed two primary reasons for a woman to seek a divorce.

    1. Abuse. It appears far more common for men to abuse their wives than the other way around. Women no longer have to put up with abusive husbands for the reasons Michael B. stated above.

    2. Screwed up society. Society is constantly telling women what they “should” want and what they supposedly need to be happy and fulfilled. Much of that advice is thwarted by being married. It is best summed up by the words a woman said to me explaining the reason she was divorcing her husband, “I want to be 17 again.”

    I think men settle into domesticity slowly and, over time, become comfortable with the routine and security of married life (despite the mid-life crisis myth). Men have to adjust when they are newly married. About the time they have adjusted, women, who relished their security when a newlywed, now grow tired of it.

    I have seen rather wild men broken like a horse by the love they have for their wife and children. They truly become husbands and fathers in the noblist senses of those words. Then the wife uses that very change and turns it against them, accusing them of being boring and predictable (the very thing they hoped to achieve when they married the man).

    And, in almost every case, the woman not only leaves her husband, and in some cases, her children too, but she also leaves the church, perhaps for the same reasons she left her husband.

  • Rev. F. Bischoff

    I have noticed two primary reasons for a woman to seek a divorce.

    1. Abuse. It appears far more common for men to abuse their wives than the other way around. Women no longer have to put up with abusive husbands for the reasons Michael B. stated above.

    2. Screwed up society. Society is constantly telling women what they “should” want and what they supposedly need to be happy and fulfilled. Much of that advice is thwarted by being married. It is best summed up by the words a woman said to me explaining the reason she was divorcing her husband, “I want to be 17 again.”

    I think men settle into domesticity slowly and, over time, become comfortable with the routine and security of married life (despite the mid-life crisis myth). Men have to adjust when they are newly married. About the time they have adjusted, women, who relished their security when a newlywed, now grow tired of it.

    I have seen rather wild men broken like a horse by the love they have for their wife and children. They truly become husbands and fathers in the noblist senses of those words. Then the wife uses that very change and turns it against them, accusing them of being boring and predictable (the very thing they hoped to achieve when they married the man).

    And, in almost every case, the woman not only leaves her husband, and in some cases, her children too, but she also leaves the church, perhaps for the same reasons she left her husband.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    I guess it would help if we broke down the specific reasons for each divorce. That a woman wants a divorce neither justifies nor condemns the act, as we know there are two legitamate grounds for divorce in Scripture (adultery and desertion).

    Ergo, a woman may be divorcing a man because he is being unfaithful, and she would therefore be justified in her divorce. On the other hand, a woman divorcing her husband because she wants another man is not justified but in sin.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    I guess it would help if we broke down the specific reasons for each divorce. That a woman wants a divorce neither justifies nor condemns the act, as we know there are two legitamate grounds for divorce in Scripture (adultery and desertion).

    Ergo, a woman may be divorcing a man because he is being unfaithful, and she would therefore be justified in her divorce. On the other hand, a woman divorcing her husband because she wants another man is not justified but in sin.

  • sandi

    PRIDE-no one is innocent in divorce, but I think pride keeps men from looking at their stuff. COVETING- we live in a culture that has convinced women that they can have it all.

  • sandi

    PRIDE-no one is innocent in divorce, but I think pride keeps men from looking at their stuff. COVETING- we live in a culture that has convinced women that they can have it all.

  • Jon

    Can you venture some reasons why such a large percentage of divorces are initiated by women?

    They haven’t read your new book on family vocation.

    Yes, it’s that good!

  • Jon

    Can you venture some reasons why such a large percentage of divorces are initiated by women?

    They haven’t read your new book on family vocation.

    Yes, it’s that good!

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Among other issues, there is both an economic and a social element at work here.

    Economically, the wildly disproportionate laws that Michael B. mentioned drastically reduce the cost of divorce for women and increase the risk of marriage for men. When you lower cost you see an increase in demand for divorce no less than anything else, and so women demand divorce more. There may still be a cost, but it is comparatively minor. At the same time, we see men becoming much less interested in marriage in the first place because for them, the cost is increased.

    Socially speaking, Americans worship independence, whereas the one flesh union created in marriage leaves very little room for it. Long-term monogamy depends on submission, but women have been taught not merely that their submission is unnecessary or old-fashioned, but that it’s actually morally wrong. Our American god is rather unkind to marriage.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Among other issues, there is both an economic and a social element at work here.

    Economically, the wildly disproportionate laws that Michael B. mentioned drastically reduce the cost of divorce for women and increase the risk of marriage for men. When you lower cost you see an increase in demand for divorce no less than anything else, and so women demand divorce more. There may still be a cost, but it is comparatively minor. At the same time, we see men becoming much less interested in marriage in the first place because for them, the cost is increased.

    Socially speaking, Americans worship independence, whereas the one flesh union created in marriage leaves very little room for it. Long-term monogamy depends on submission, but women have been taught not merely that their submission is unnecessary or old-fashioned, but that it’s actually morally wrong. Our American god is rather unkind to marriage.

  • Robin

    Meddling inlaws! I am not divorced and love my husband but, if he and I were not on the same page so to speak his mother would drive us crazy. I think a lot of women have that issue with their mother in law if she tries to insert herself in their affairs. The same can go for a man if his mother in law acts like that.

  • Robin

    Meddling inlaws! I am not divorced and love my husband but, if he and I were not on the same page so to speak his mother would drive us crazy. I think a lot of women have that issue with their mother in law if she tries to insert herself in their affairs. The same can go for a man if his mother in law acts like that.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    There is no simple answer. Or at least there is no simple answer that will not ultimately devolve into sexist comments as George noted. I suspect the answers are as diverse as there are people getting divorce.

    Also, where did they get their numbers? It obviously didn’t come from the cited Gallup poll.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    There is no simple answer. Or at least there is no simple answer that will not ultimately devolve into sexist comments as George noted. I suspect the answers are as diverse as there are people getting divorce.

    Also, where did they get their numbers? It obviously didn’t come from the cited Gallup poll.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Maybe because men are more prone to physical violence (1), and, because of the legacy of Victorian patriarchy (do you see the irony in that phrase), men are still more likely to “Lord it over women”, in spite of the legacy of feminism etc. (2). In reality, I see much fewer cases of women being bastards to their men folk, than the other way around, though it certainly exists.

    Much of what people view as “traditional marriage” is the result of silly Victorianisms, not of the longer human tradition and experience. This is of course much more prevalent in the Anglophone world than anywhere else.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Maybe because men are more prone to physical violence (1), and, because of the legacy of Victorian patriarchy (do you see the irony in that phrase), men are still more likely to “Lord it over women”, in spite of the legacy of feminism etc. (2). In reality, I see much fewer cases of women being bastards to their men folk, than the other way around, though it certainly exists.

    Much of what people view as “traditional marriage” is the result of silly Victorianisms, not of the longer human tradition and experience. This is of course much more prevalent in the Anglophone world than anywhere else.

  • formerly just steve

    KK, #13, “Much of what people view as “traditional marriage” is the result of silly Victorianisms, not of the longer human tradition and experience. This is of course much more prevalent in the Anglophone world than anywhere else.”

    Well, that certainly explains the heavily patriarchal attitude in the Islamic, Hindu, and Buddhist worlds. Those rascally Victorians. They caused all the problems.

  • formerly just steve

    KK, #13, “Much of what people view as “traditional marriage” is the result of silly Victorianisms, not of the longer human tradition and experience. This is of course much more prevalent in the Anglophone world than anywhere else.”

    Well, that certainly explains the heavily patriarchal attitude in the Islamic, Hindu, and Buddhist worlds. Those rascally Victorians. They caused all the problems.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It is best summed up by the words a woman said to me explaining the reason she was divorcing her husband, “I want to be 17 again.”

    Eat, Love, Pray

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat,_Pray,_Love

    The female version of stepping on others and brutally using people to get what you want regardless of how much it hurts others.

    This is why no-fault divorce is such a problem. Whoever is at fault needs to pay the price to the one they have wronged. The current system allows the creeps, male and female, to abuse the better spouse and even get rewarded for it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It is best summed up by the words a woman said to me explaining the reason she was divorcing her husband, “I want to be 17 again.”

    Eat, Love, Pray

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat,_Pray,_Love

    The female version of stepping on others and brutally using people to get what you want regardless of how much it hurts others.

    This is why no-fault divorce is such a problem. Whoever is at fault needs to pay the price to the one they have wronged. The current system allows the creeps, male and female, to abuse the better spouse and even get rewarded for it.

  • helen

    Michael B @ 1
    Divorce a guy, and you get half his assets, plus child support, plus support from the state. And you get to do it all on your terms.

    Really? Which state is that?

  • helen

    Michael B @ 1
    Divorce a guy, and you get half his assets, plus child support, plus support from the state. And you get to do it all on your terms.

    Really? Which state is that?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe because men are more prone to physical violence …men are still more likely to “Lord it over women”,…

    But women like those guys. Violent, abusive, controlling guys are the least likely to be left by their women. Boring, good guys are the ones women leave.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe because men are more prone to physical violence …men are still more likely to “Lord it over women”,…

    But women like those guys. Violent, abusive, controlling guys are the least likely to be left by their women. Boring, good guys are the ones women leave.

  • Gary

    sg @15: “This is why no-fault divorce is such a problem. Whoever is at fault needs to pay the price to the one they have wronged.”

    I disagree 100%, and for two basic reasons:

    1. Courts have rightfully concluded that divorces are so messy, and the objective facts so difficult to ascertain, that it is not worth the time and money to establish who’s more at fault. After all, most if not all the testimony is going to come from the very same biased people who are going to remember each “he said, she said” episode differently.

    2. Marriage with no practical path to get out of it becomes for some a lifetime sentence with no chance of parole. The institution of marriage winds up taking priority over the people in the marriage, and you effectively use a marriage license and the courts to keep unwilling spouses together. How could this be good? I suppose many commenters here would justify that society should make the cost of divorce as high as possible (I’ve already seen shame and shunning listed above), so people will stay in the marriage even though they don’t want any part of it anymore and they’re sick of their spouse.

  • Gary

    sg @15: “This is why no-fault divorce is such a problem. Whoever is at fault needs to pay the price to the one they have wronged.”

    I disagree 100%, and for two basic reasons:

    1. Courts have rightfully concluded that divorces are so messy, and the objective facts so difficult to ascertain, that it is not worth the time and money to establish who’s more at fault. After all, most if not all the testimony is going to come from the very same biased people who are going to remember each “he said, she said” episode differently.

    2. Marriage with no practical path to get out of it becomes for some a lifetime sentence with no chance of parole. The institution of marriage winds up taking priority over the people in the marriage, and you effectively use a marriage license and the courts to keep unwilling spouses together. How could this be good? I suppose many commenters here would justify that society should make the cost of divorce as high as possible (I’ve already seen shame and shunning listed above), so people will stay in the marriage even though they don’t want any part of it anymore and they’re sick of their spouse.

  • Grace

    From what I have observed, those who commit adultery, abuse either spouse or children, drug users, – - those who are married to them have a right to divorce. It’s not all that hard to prove. Those who are guilty should be made to shoulder as much financial help as possible.

    No fault divorce encourages divorce. When a spouse understands the responsibility he/she has, and the consequences of divorce if they are at fault, will more than likely ‘work it out.

    It is SHAMEFUL when a spouse mistreats the other, and perhaps the children as well.

    The laws make it all too easy to divorce. Observing children, teens and others who are past that stage in their lives.. it’s easy to see the marks of pain, suffered at the hands of either parent. Sometimes both parents are at fault, but all too often, there is one spouse who cares little about moral values, or the pain they inflict on their families as they leave.

  • Grace

    From what I have observed, those who commit adultery, abuse either spouse or children, drug users, – - those who are married to them have a right to divorce. It’s not all that hard to prove. Those who are guilty should be made to shoulder as much financial help as possible.

    No fault divorce encourages divorce. When a spouse understands the responsibility he/she has, and the consequences of divorce if they are at fault, will more than likely ‘work it out.

    It is SHAMEFUL when a spouse mistreats the other, and perhaps the children as well.

    The laws make it all too easy to divorce. Observing children, teens and others who are past that stage in their lives.. it’s easy to see the marks of pain, suffered at the hands of either parent. Sometimes both parents are at fault, but all too often, there is one spouse who cares little about moral values, or the pain they inflict on their families as they leave.

  • Gary

    “The laws make it all too easy to divorce.”

    Well, no matter how the laws run, don’t kid yourself the process we have in place now is “easy.” Somewhat easier and less expensive that it may have once been, I’ll grant you, but it’s not easy, cheap, fun, or consequence-free. Also, you take it for granted that the state _should_ make it as difficult and painful as possible. But why should the state get in the way of what free citizens agree they want to do? And there’s already alimony and child support regulations in place.

    Now the church is another matter. Should the church make it as difficult as possible for married members to pursue no-fault divorces which are not justified by scripture? I say a church is free to do just that, if that’s the policy they want to follow.

  • Gary

    “The laws make it all too easy to divorce.”

    Well, no matter how the laws run, don’t kid yourself the process we have in place now is “easy.” Somewhat easier and less expensive that it may have once been, I’ll grant you, but it’s not easy, cheap, fun, or consequence-free. Also, you take it for granted that the state _should_ make it as difficult and painful as possible. But why should the state get in the way of what free citizens agree they want to do? And there’s already alimony and child support regulations in place.

    Now the church is another matter. Should the church make it as difficult as possible for married members to pursue no-fault divorces which are not justified by scripture? I say a church is free to do just that, if that’s the policy they want to follow.

  • Grace

    Gary,

    “And there’s already alimony and child support regulations in place.”

    I know too many women who have to go back to court, time, after time, after time, to make their ex-husbands pay child support. It costs a great deal of money. Their ex has the same job, same salary, perhaps even more …. but since he is divorced, he has other things to spend his money on, .. it certainly isn’t is ex wife and children, whom he owes child support.

    It happens to men as well, but far less often. Women who leave their ex-husbands with children should be made to pay child support as well.

    The state used to enforce child support payments, with far stricter rules, even jail time – I believe its a good plan, one that needs to be re-instituted. Children have a difficult time as it is, it shouldn’t be made harder by a selfish parent.

  • Grace

    Gary,

    “And there’s already alimony and child support regulations in place.”

    I know too many women who have to go back to court, time, after time, after time, to make their ex-husbands pay child support. It costs a great deal of money. Their ex has the same job, same salary, perhaps even more …. but since he is divorced, he has other things to spend his money on, .. it certainly isn’t is ex wife and children, whom he owes child support.

    It happens to men as well, but far less often. Women who leave their ex-husbands with children should be made to pay child support as well.

    The state used to enforce child support payments, with far stricter rules, even jail time – I believe its a good plan, one that needs to be re-instituted. Children have a difficult time as it is, it shouldn’t be made harder by a selfish parent.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Women who leave their ex-husbands with children should be made to pay child support as well.”

    Women are more likely to be dead beats as non-custodial parents than men are.

    http://deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/content/content.php?content.284

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Women who leave their ex-husbands with children should be made to pay child support as well.”

    Women are more likely to be dead beats as non-custodial parents than men are.

    http://deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/content/content.php?content.284

  • Grace

    sg,

    YOU WROTE: “Women are more likely to be dead beats as non-custodial parents than men are.”

    That isn’t true. I don’t agree with the LINK you gave. It’s located in Kenmore, WA. There are lots of so called ‘statistics’ regarding everything, and anything. That doesn’t make it factual.

    Men often get custody of children because they have the financial means to do so, where their spouse doesn’t have the funds –

    I’ve been part of abused children’s charity, it’s not all that cut and dried. It’s painful to see the results of neglected, abused, children by either the mother, father or both parents. Money often, has nothing to do with it. It’s a selfish act.

    My career and background has allowed me to see and experience many different ethnic, socio economic groups. Some are very fragile. People involved have been hurt. Just because women don’t have custody of their children doesn’t mean they are bad parents, it often means they didn’t have the funds to fight their case in court. That sg, is one of the saddest situations one can observe, a mother who cannot defend herself, an ex who not only has the funds, but often times has a family who has the funds, if he doesn’t.

  • Grace

    sg,

    YOU WROTE: “Women are more likely to be dead beats as non-custodial parents than men are.”

    That isn’t true. I don’t agree with the LINK you gave. It’s located in Kenmore, WA. There are lots of so called ‘statistics’ regarding everything, and anything. That doesn’t make it factual.

    Men often get custody of children because they have the financial means to do so, where their spouse doesn’t have the funds –

    I’ve been part of abused children’s charity, it’s not all that cut and dried. It’s painful to see the results of neglected, abused, children by either the mother, father or both parents. Money often, has nothing to do with it. It’s a selfish act.

    My career and background has allowed me to see and experience many different ethnic, socio economic groups. Some are very fragile. People involved have been hurt. Just because women don’t have custody of their children doesn’t mean they are bad parents, it often means they didn’t have the funds to fight their case in court. That sg, is one of the saddest situations one can observe, a mother who cannot defend herself, an ex who not only has the funds, but often times has a family who has the funds, if he doesn’t.

  • Michael B.

    I personally think a woman should have a right to divorce for any reason — even if it’s as trivial as thinking her husband has gotten boring. But our legal system has the idea that the guy should pay her for it. Alimony should be eliminated, and child support payments need to be made fair. The rich have to pay substantially more in child support payments. Why is that exactly? One kid gets $200 a month, whereas another is entitled to $20,000 a month?!

  • Michael B.

    I personally think a woman should have a right to divorce for any reason — even if it’s as trivial as thinking her husband has gotten boring. But our legal system has the idea that the guy should pay her for it. Alimony should be eliminated, and child support payments need to be made fair. The rich have to pay substantially more in child support payments. Why is that exactly? One kid gets $200 a month, whereas another is entitled to $20,000 a month?!

  • helen

    Michael B.
    Why should the kids go without anything they would have if the divorce had not happened?
    Shouldn’t they have the same schools and activities as before, if the parents can afford it?
    Why should all the money be spent on the new [trophy] wife?

    If “one kid gets $200 a month”, I sincerely hope it’s because that parent can’t afford more and not because s/he is evading responsibility for the child.

  • helen

    Michael B.
    Why should the kids go without anything they would have if the divorce had not happened?
    Shouldn’t they have the same schools and activities as before, if the parents can afford it?
    Why should all the money be spent on the new [trophy] wife?

    If “one kid gets $200 a month”, I sincerely hope it’s because that parent can’t afford more and not because s/he is evading responsibility for the child.

  • helen

    I’ll admit my experience is limited but is the “factoid” any truer than the “5 Myths”?
    I know one woman who divorced her husband… and found a lawyer to get her 60% of the property, because she had worked and put her husband through school.

    I know several more who got dropped for something flashier, and robbed in the process because the “Flash” expected to live better than the original wife and mother of the kids ever had.

  • helen

    I’ll admit my experience is limited but is the “factoid” any truer than the “5 Myths”?
    I know one woman who divorced her husband… and found a lawyer to get her 60% of the property, because she had worked and put her husband through school.

    I know several more who got dropped for something flashier, and robbed in the process because the “Flash” expected to live better than the original wife and mother of the kids ever had.

  • Grace

    Michael @ 24

    “The rich have to pay substantially more in child support payments. Why is that exactly? One kid gets $200 a month, whereas another is entitled to $20,000 a month?!’

    I’m surprised anyone would ask the question you pose above.

    Child support payments are predicated upon the husbands, and or wifes income. If he makes very little, then there will be smaller child support payments. If the father or mother make great sums of money, the payments coincide with the money made by the parent/parents to continue the same lifestyle before the divorce. Some children have always attended private school. The parent supporting the family should, if at all possible be responsible to continue giving the child the same education.

    Divorce is often a selfish endeavor, that is why finances become the main disagreement, with the CHILDREN being MADE TO TAKE the BRUNT,….. both financially and emotionally.

    Children have a right to the lifestyle they had before their parents divorced. A father or mother have no right to deny children from the lifestyle they had before the divorce.

  • Grace

    Michael @ 24

    “The rich have to pay substantially more in child support payments. Why is that exactly? One kid gets $200 a month, whereas another is entitled to $20,000 a month?!’

    I’m surprised anyone would ask the question you pose above.

    Child support payments are predicated upon the husbands, and or wifes income. If he makes very little, then there will be smaller child support payments. If the father or mother make great sums of money, the payments coincide with the money made by the parent/parents to continue the same lifestyle before the divorce. Some children have always attended private school. The parent supporting the family should, if at all possible be responsible to continue giving the child the same education.

    Divorce is often a selfish endeavor, that is why finances become the main disagreement, with the CHILDREN being MADE TO TAKE the BRUNT,….. both financially and emotionally.

    Children have a right to the lifestyle they had before their parents divorced. A father or mother have no right to deny children from the lifestyle they had before the divorce.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Because women are just as self centered as men.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    Because women are just as self centered as men.

  • Patrick Kyle

    One myth that is evident we still labor under is that men are most likely to be the cause of the divorce. Its at least 50/50 and probably more in line with the stats quoted concerning women initiating more divorces.

    After my ex wife ‘tamed and civilized’ me she became ‘unhaaaapy’ and used that as a justification for adultery and divorce. Rev. Bischoff @6 is right on the money. I have seen it happen to others too. Our laws and culture nurture this kind of behavior. Even the majority of the comments on this blog assume men are to blame most of the time. The schlock Gary espouses above (divorce for failure to ‘fulfill’ your partner’s every dream) has infected the church.
    This last week I watched a woman in my church who had left her husband several months ago show up and sit in the front row with her new boyfriend (no, she is not divorced from her husband, I talked to him two weeks ago) and brazenly go up to the rail for communion. Even if he wasn’t the best husband, couldn’t she at least wait until the ink was dry on the divorce papers? (Or, in this case even have the papers drawn up?)

    The church has made a mockery of marriage, then we wonder why people are angry when we rail against homosexual marriage.

  • Patrick Kyle

    One myth that is evident we still labor under is that men are most likely to be the cause of the divorce. Its at least 50/50 and probably more in line with the stats quoted concerning women initiating more divorces.

    After my ex wife ‘tamed and civilized’ me she became ‘unhaaaapy’ and used that as a justification for adultery and divorce. Rev. Bischoff @6 is right on the money. I have seen it happen to others too. Our laws and culture nurture this kind of behavior. Even the majority of the comments on this blog assume men are to blame most of the time. The schlock Gary espouses above (divorce for failure to ‘fulfill’ your partner’s every dream) has infected the church.
    This last week I watched a woman in my church who had left her husband several months ago show up and sit in the front row with her new boyfriend (no, she is not divorced from her husband, I talked to him two weeks ago) and brazenly go up to the rail for communion. Even if he wasn’t the best husband, couldn’t she at least wait until the ink was dry on the divorce papers? (Or, in this case even have the papers drawn up?)

    The church has made a mockery of marriage, then we wonder why people are angry when we rail against homosexual marriage.

  • Patrick Kyle

    To get a thoughtful take on our present situation in regards to marriage and the church, peruse the archives of this blog:

    http://www.dalrock.wordpress.com

    Pay special attention to his ‘Reframing Christian Marriage’ series.

  • Patrick Kyle

    To get a thoughtful take on our present situation in regards to marriage and the church, peruse the archives of this blog:

    http://www.dalrock.wordpress.com

    Pay special attention to his ‘Reframing Christian Marriage’ series.

  • Patrick Kyle

    PS – I should note that all the divorces in my family and extended family were initiated by the women. Nine in total including mine, my parents, my wife’s parents, my ex wife’s parents and assorted aunts on both sides of our families. In my case and the case of my parents and my wife’s parents, the reasons were completely BS, along the lines of Eat, Pray, Love. In only one case (one of my wife’s aunts) were there allegations of physical abuse and/or infidelity. In the other cases, I was not as privy to the details but they seemed to be generic ‘irreconcilable differences’ types of cases from my vantage point.

  • Patrick Kyle

    PS – I should note that all the divorces in my family and extended family were initiated by the women. Nine in total including mine, my parents, my wife’s parents, my ex wife’s parents and assorted aunts on both sides of our families. In my case and the case of my parents and my wife’s parents, the reasons were completely BS, along the lines of Eat, Pray, Love. In only one case (one of my wife’s aunts) were there allegations of physical abuse and/or infidelity. In the other cases, I was not as privy to the details but they seemed to be generic ‘irreconcilable differences’ types of cases from my vantage point.

  • Grace

    The only divorces I know of, are those where adultery was the act, that resulted in divorce. Even though the other party gave their spouse another chance, it still continued. It’s very sad when one watches the pain endured by someone who is mournful of their spouses infidelity, a loved one who is disloyal, in such an intimate way.

  • Grace

    The only divorces I know of, are those where adultery was the act, that resulted in divorce. Even though the other party gave their spouse another chance, it still continued. It’s very sad when one watches the pain endured by someone who is mournful of their spouses infidelity, a loved one who is disloyal, in such an intimate way.

  • Gary

    Uh, Patrick (@29), I hardly thing it’s schlock I’m espousing, and I never anywhere justified divorcing because one partner couldn’t fulfill the other’s every dream. That’s a pretty cheap mischaracterization of anything I thought or wrote. Nobody gets married thinking, “Well, I wonder how long before we end this in court.” People nowadays don’t get married because they have to, but because they want to join their lives to the person they love, to whom they’ve pledged their faithfulness. But you can’t tell me two people who’ve grown to despise each other are doing themselves, God, or society any favors by keeping the outward show of unity intact, when one or the other really isn’t committed any longer.

    Of course there I go just shoveling around some schlock again, right Patrick? Maybe you can tell us what’s the better way to handle a situation when one spouse or the other quits listening and refuses to engage with the partner to whom they’ve made vows.

  • Gary

    Uh, Patrick (@29), I hardly thing it’s schlock I’m espousing, and I never anywhere justified divorcing because one partner couldn’t fulfill the other’s every dream. That’s a pretty cheap mischaracterization of anything I thought or wrote. Nobody gets married thinking, “Well, I wonder how long before we end this in court.” People nowadays don’t get married because they have to, but because they want to join their lives to the person they love, to whom they’ve pledged their faithfulness. But you can’t tell me two people who’ve grown to despise each other are doing themselves, God, or society any favors by keeping the outward show of unity intact, when one or the other really isn’t committed any longer.

    Of course there I go just shoveling around some schlock again, right Patrick? Maybe you can tell us what’s the better way to handle a situation when one spouse or the other quits listening and refuses to engage with the partner to whom they’ve made vows.

  • Grace

    Gary,

    Marriage isn’t always easy, however, God knows our hearts. The best way to solve any problem is to go to the LORD in prayer, be submissive, humble, and willing to look within ourselves, that’s not always easy to do, but it’s the only answer.

    Blessings

  • Grace

    Gary,

    Marriage isn’t always easy, however, God knows our hearts. The best way to solve any problem is to go to the LORD in prayer, be submissive, humble, and willing to look within ourselves, that’s not always easy to do, but it’s the only answer.

    Blessings

  • Patrick Kyle

    Gary,

    Where exactly in the Scriptures does it tell us its OK to divorce because because marriage is hard or unpleasant, or the other person didn’t turn out like we had hoped?

    “But you can’t tell me two people who’ve grown to despise each other are doing themselves, God, or society any favors by keeping the outward show of unity intact, when one or the other really isn’t committed any longer.” Yeah, tell that to their kids. And again, how exactly does this justify tearing asunder what God has joined together?

  • Patrick Kyle

    Gary,

    Where exactly in the Scriptures does it tell us its OK to divorce because because marriage is hard or unpleasant, or the other person didn’t turn out like we had hoped?

    “But you can’t tell me two people who’ve grown to despise each other are doing themselves, God, or society any favors by keeping the outward show of unity intact, when one or the other really isn’t committed any longer.” Yeah, tell that to their kids. And again, how exactly does this justify tearing asunder what God has joined together?

  • http://edythemclain@aol.com e

    I am in the process of a divorce where my husband lied to me for eight years about his impotency and his criminal background. He spent every cent I had and kept all of his money in IRAs and off-shore accounts. I believe he is planning on leaving the country and leaving me with all the debt he created. He abused the last wife exactly as he has abused me. No-fault divorce is incredibly unfair to older women. My daughter has cervical cancer and I have NO WAY to help her because he has robbed me blind while he has 500K, plus much more hidden off shore. We have already found one of his off shore accounts. He sent the banker an email identifying his wife’s name as Marion and a birthdate that is NOT my birth date. He was arrested May 9th for his fourth, fifth, or sixth DUI, depending on who you talk to. I do not deserve this.

  • http://edythemclain@aol.com e

    I am in the process of a divorce where my husband lied to me for eight years about his impotency and his criminal background. He spent every cent I had and kept all of his money in IRAs and off-shore accounts. I believe he is planning on leaving the country and leaving me with all the debt he created. He abused the last wife exactly as he has abused me. No-fault divorce is incredibly unfair to older women. My daughter has cervical cancer and I have NO WAY to help her because he has robbed me blind while he has 500K, plus much more hidden off shore. We have already found one of his off shore accounts. He sent the banker an email identifying his wife’s name as Marion and a birthdate that is NOT my birth date. He was arrested May 9th for his fourth, fifth, or sixth DUI, depending on who you talk to. I do not deserve this.

  • Patrick Kyle

    “Maybe you can tell us what’s the better way to handle a situation when one spouse or the other quits listening and refuses to engage with the partner to whom they’ve made vows.”
    I hung in there for years, doing the best I could and honoring the vows I made before God and man. Eventually she left, but wanted me to file for the divorce. I refused, and two years later she finally did it. There are no easy answers, however, not liking each other anymore doesn’t mean you can forsake your vows.

  • Patrick Kyle

    “Maybe you can tell us what’s the better way to handle a situation when one spouse or the other quits listening and refuses to engage with the partner to whom they’ve made vows.”
    I hung in there for years, doing the best I could and honoring the vows I made before God and man. Eventually she left, but wanted me to file for the divorce. I refused, and two years later she finally did it. There are no easy answers, however, not liking each other anymore doesn’t mean you can forsake your vows.

  • Michael B.

    @Patrick Kyle@29

    “This last week I watched a woman in my church who had left her husband several months ago show up and sit in the front row with her new boyfriend (no, she is not divorced from her husband, I talked to him two weeks ago) and brazenly go up to the rail for communion.”

    But if homosexuals get married, then that would be the end of the world.

  • Michael B.

    @Patrick Kyle@29

    “This last week I watched a woman in my church who had left her husband several months ago show up and sit in the front row with her new boyfriend (no, she is not divorced from her husband, I talked to him two weeks ago) and brazenly go up to the rail for communion.”

    But if homosexuals get married, then that would be the end of the world.

  • Michael B.

    @Helen@25

    “Why should the kids go without anything they would have if the divorce had not happened?Shouldn’t they have the same schools and activities as before, if the parents can afford it?

    Okay, but what about the kids in America who never had anything like private schools, activities, cars, vacations, and the like to begin with? Why shouldn’t his money go to support the kid who attends a poor school district and allow him to attend a private school? Entitlement in America is a curious beast.

  • Michael B.

    @Helen@25

    “Why should the kids go without anything they would have if the divorce had not happened?Shouldn’t they have the same schools and activities as before, if the parents can afford it?

    Okay, but what about the kids in America who never had anything like private schools, activities, cars, vacations, and the like to begin with? Why shouldn’t his money go to support the kid who attends a poor school district and allow him to attend a private school? Entitlement in America is a curious beast.

  • SAL

    Divorce is a sin which Christ’s death atones for. Divorce violates our wedding vows to God. Now when we make a vow to God it should be deathly serious.

    Considering the legal side I’m not oppose to allowing divorce. However I believe the individual to initite the divorce should not be allowed to remarry unless they can show fault with the other spouse. To do otherwise is to legalize serial polygamy.

  • SAL

    Divorce is a sin which Christ’s death atones for. Divorce violates our wedding vows to God. Now when we make a vow to God it should be deathly serious.

    Considering the legal side I’m not oppose to allowing divorce. However I believe the individual to initite the divorce should not be allowed to remarry unless they can show fault with the other spouse. To do otherwise is to legalize serial polygamy.

  • Grace

    “Okay, but what about the kids in America who never had anything like private schools, activities, cars, vacations, and the like to begin with? Why shouldn’t his money go to support the kid who attends a poor school district and allow him to attend a private school? Entitlement in America is a curious beast.”

    A SOCIALIST divorce?

  • Grace

    “Okay, but what about the kids in America who never had anything like private schools, activities, cars, vacations, and the like to begin with? Why shouldn’t his money go to support the kid who attends a poor school district and allow him to attend a private school? Entitlement in America is a curious beast.”

    A SOCIALIST divorce?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Because women are just as self centered as men.”

    Close, but probably the distribution is different. It seems there are a few more men at the extremes: extremely devoted, and extremely unfaithful. On balance, men seem a little less selfish than women, but there are fewer women at the extremes. Maybe that is due to social factors, but I generally tend to discount that. Social expectations seems more influential on women than men because women are disproportionally more inclined to follow. So, perhaps the average man and average woman are equally (un)willing to die for their country/spouse/children, there seem to be far more men than women who are at all willing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Because women are just as self centered as men.”

    Close, but probably the distribution is different. It seems there are a few more men at the extremes: extremely devoted, and extremely unfaithful. On balance, men seem a little less selfish than women, but there are fewer women at the extremes. Maybe that is due to social factors, but I generally tend to discount that. Social expectations seems more influential on women than men because women are disproportionally more inclined to follow. So, perhaps the average man and average woman are equally (un)willing to die for their country/spouse/children, there seem to be far more men than women who are at all willing.

  • Grace

    sg @ 42

    “So, perhaps the average man and average woman are equally(un)willing to die for their country/spouse/children, there seem to be far more men than women who are at all willing.”

    “WILLING” ?

    From the beginning of time, men went to war, not women. It isn’t a matter of “willing” it is a matter of physical power and strength. Of course we have women who want to be men, or emulate them on the battle field.

  • Grace

    sg @ 42

    “So, perhaps the average man and average woman are equally(un)willing to die for their country/spouse/children, there seem to be far more men than women who are at all willing.”

    “WILLING” ?

    From the beginning of time, men went to war, not women. It isn’t a matter of “willing” it is a matter of physical power and strength. Of course we have women who want to be men, or emulate them on the battle field.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    It occurs to me, having now read through the comments on this thread, that it’s possible everyone here is merely arguing from their personal experience. Which isn’t necessarily bad or wrong — our experiences inform our attitudes and beliefs, don’t they?

    Still, it seems like people who are married and have never been divorced can be a bit sanctimonious on the topic of divorce. And those who have gotten a divorce occasionally sound a bit bitter on the topic (which may or may not be entirely justified). There may be a lot of talking past each other here.

    As such, I have to ask (though I recognize this may be too personal a question for such a forum): Gary, have you had a divorce?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    It occurs to me, having now read through the comments on this thread, that it’s possible everyone here is merely arguing from their personal experience. Which isn’t necessarily bad or wrong — our experiences inform our attitudes and beliefs, don’t they?

    Still, it seems like people who are married and have never been divorced can be a bit sanctimonious on the topic of divorce. And those who have gotten a divorce occasionally sound a bit bitter on the topic (which may or may not be entirely justified). There may be a lot of talking past each other here.

    As such, I have to ask (though I recognize this may be too personal a question for such a forum): Gary, have you had a divorce?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Gary asked (@18):

    The institution of marriage winds up taking priority over the people in the marriage, and you effectively use a marriage license and the courts to keep unwilling spouses together. How could this be good?

    I’m jumping into the middle of a conversation here, so forgive me if someone else already said this, but the most obvious answer is: it could be good for the kids. Not saying it necessarily will be, but in response to your question, it could be.

    Most laws in our society (be they officially codified or just customs) involve subordinating how we actually feel for the good of society (i.e. peace and order). So even if I want to kill you, or take your things, or merely think your outfit looks stupid or you smell bad, I’m prevented from doing so in one way or another. How can this be good? Do these laws take my feelings into consideration? They do not. And society is better for it.

    Gary also asked (@20):

    But why should the state get in the way of what free citizens agree they want to do?

    Probably because the state was involved in their coming together in marriage in the first place. That’s kind of what marriage involves. You can get “spiritually divorced” — whatever the heck that means — without any involvement whatsoever from the state. But when you enter into a legal contract with someone else, overseen by the state, it doesn’t exactly make sense to complain when the state has something to say about that contract and its enforcement.

    Finally, Gary asked:

    Should the church make it as difficult as possible for married members to pursue no-fault divorces which are not justified by scripture?

    Do people get divorced in churches? I don’t think so. They get divorced at courthouses. So how does the church make it difficult for its members to pursue (no-fault) divorces? It could counsel them not to (not very difficult to get around that), or threaten them with loss of membership (also not too difficult, though perhaps more emotionally exacting for some). But it’s like saying the church should make it “as difficult as possible” for its members to murder each other. The church doesn’t really exercise control over its members like that.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Gary asked (@18):

    The institution of marriage winds up taking priority over the people in the marriage, and you effectively use a marriage license and the courts to keep unwilling spouses together. How could this be good?

    I’m jumping into the middle of a conversation here, so forgive me if someone else already said this, but the most obvious answer is: it could be good for the kids. Not saying it necessarily will be, but in response to your question, it could be.

    Most laws in our society (be they officially codified or just customs) involve subordinating how we actually feel for the good of society (i.e. peace and order). So even if I want to kill you, or take your things, or merely think your outfit looks stupid or you smell bad, I’m prevented from doing so in one way or another. How can this be good? Do these laws take my feelings into consideration? They do not. And society is better for it.

    Gary also asked (@20):

    But why should the state get in the way of what free citizens agree they want to do?

    Probably because the state was involved in their coming together in marriage in the first place. That’s kind of what marriage involves. You can get “spiritually divorced” — whatever the heck that means — without any involvement whatsoever from the state. But when you enter into a legal contract with someone else, overseen by the state, it doesn’t exactly make sense to complain when the state has something to say about that contract and its enforcement.

    Finally, Gary asked:

    Should the church make it as difficult as possible for married members to pursue no-fault divorces which are not justified by scripture?

    Do people get divorced in churches? I don’t think so. They get divorced at courthouses. So how does the church make it difficult for its members to pursue (no-fault) divorces? It could counsel them not to (not very difficult to get around that), or threaten them with loss of membership (also not too difficult, though perhaps more emotionally exacting for some). But it’s like saying the church should make it “as difficult as possible” for its members to murder each other. The church doesn’t really exercise control over its members like that.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@23) said:

    That isn’t true. I don’t agree with the LINK you gave. It’s located in Kenmore, WA. There are lots of so called ‘statistics’ regarding everything, and anything. That doesn’t make it factual.

    Sorry, Grace, but this reply of yours says so much about how you process arguments.

    SG made a factual claim, and provided a link to back up her assertion. And you replied with five sentences, three of which are nothing more than your asserting your own opinion about SG’s claim without any further argument.

    Your second-to-last sentence is so much gobbledygook that appears to disdain any and all statistics as meaningless (which prompts the question: on what, exactly, should we base this discussion of divorce statistics? Our own anecdotes and/or feelings?)

    And then, marvelously, there is your statement that the site SG linked to is “located in Kenmore, WA”. As if that meant something. (Are there no facts in Kenmore, Washington?)

    What you seem to have missed is that, while the site SG linked to is quite a mess and doesn’t appear terribly authoritative, the site itself doesn’t matter. Because it cites its sources. Namely:

    1988 Census “Child Support and Alimony: 1989 Series P-60, No. 173 p. 6-7. and U.S. General Accounting Office Report”

    Here, I Googled that for you.

    Guess what? The Census Bureau is not located in Kenmore, Washington. So that argument goes away. You might actually have to read the document there to see if the statistical claim is true or not.

    Or, you know, you could just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears, yelling, “LA LA LA THAT’S NOT TRUE I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!” Because maybe that’ll work.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Grace (@23) said:

    That isn’t true. I don’t agree with the LINK you gave. It’s located in Kenmore, WA. There are lots of so called ‘statistics’ regarding everything, and anything. That doesn’t make it factual.

    Sorry, Grace, but this reply of yours says so much about how you process arguments.

    SG made a factual claim, and provided a link to back up her assertion. And you replied with five sentences, three of which are nothing more than your asserting your own opinion about SG’s claim without any further argument.

    Your second-to-last sentence is so much gobbledygook that appears to disdain any and all statistics as meaningless (which prompts the question: on what, exactly, should we base this discussion of divorce statistics? Our own anecdotes and/or feelings?)

    And then, marvelously, there is your statement that the site SG linked to is “located in Kenmore, WA”. As if that meant something. (Are there no facts in Kenmore, Washington?)

    What you seem to have missed is that, while the site SG linked to is quite a mess and doesn’t appear terribly authoritative, the site itself doesn’t matter. Because it cites its sources. Namely:

    1988 Census “Child Support and Alimony: 1989 Series P-60, No. 173 p. 6-7. and U.S. General Accounting Office Report”

    Here, I Googled that for you.

    Guess what? The Census Bureau is not located in Kenmore, Washington. So that argument goes away. You might actually have to read the document there to see if the statistical claim is true or not.

    Or, you know, you could just close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears, yelling, “LA LA LA THAT’S NOT TRUE I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!” Because maybe that’ll work.

  • Anon

    Apparently, women have mid life crises, too, and leaving a marriage is being encouraged in pop culture as a healthy reaction: http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/austin_500/519_second-act-syndrome.html

  • Anon

    Apparently, women have mid life crises, too, and leaving a marriage is being encouraged in pop culture as a healthy reaction: http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/austin_500/519_second-act-syndrome.html

  • Grace

    POOR tODD, try to get over it. :razz:

  • Grace

    POOR tODD, try to get over it. :razz:

  • Michael B.

    @sg@42

    “Close, but probably the distribution is different. It seems there are a few more men at the extremes: extremely devoted, and extremely unfaithful. ”

    This is true in a lot of respects. There are a disproportionate amount of male geniuses, as well as serial killers. I heard an interesting hypothesis on why this is. In our evolutionary history, the model of an alpha-male with multiple females was far more common. Thus while most women had a similar amount of offspring, the variance among men was great. Beta males probably reproduced little if at all. Furthermore, men could quickly reproduce themselves, unlike women who need to wait 9 months between each round. (Look at Ismail Ibn Sharif, who fathered over 800 children with harem. Michelle Duggar eat your heart out. ) Thus for men the range of potential success or failure is far greater — and this makes it more worthwhile to see more diversity in the phenotype. Anyway, only a possible explanation I heard, which I’m probably explaining very poorly.

  • Michael B.

    @sg@42

    “Close, but probably the distribution is different. It seems there are a few more men at the extremes: extremely devoted, and extremely unfaithful. ”

    This is true in a lot of respects. There are a disproportionate amount of male geniuses, as well as serial killers. I heard an interesting hypothesis on why this is. In our evolutionary history, the model of an alpha-male with multiple females was far more common. Thus while most women had a similar amount of offspring, the variance among men was great. Beta males probably reproduced little if at all. Furthermore, men could quickly reproduce themselves, unlike women who need to wait 9 months between each round. (Look at Ismail Ibn Sharif, who fathered over 800 children with harem. Michelle Duggar eat your heart out. ) Thus for men the range of potential success or failure is far greater — and this makes it more worthwhile to see more diversity in the phenotype. Anyway, only a possible explanation I heard, which I’m probably explaining very poorly.

  • Gary

    tODD, @44, Yes, I am. Now as to the questions I posed, I understand the state has as much interest in how marriages end as in how they begin. I don’t begrudge the state for meddling and adding legal hoops, because returning each person to a single status, with independent legal and financial liabilities is a big deal. I don’t agree with what appears to be the majority opinion here, that divorce is overly easy. It is not. And the courts try to take very seriously the well-being and equitable support of any minor children.

    What I raised about the church making it difficult was exactly along the lines you guessed, of more-or-less showing divorced people the door. If not to that extent, then perhaps simply marginalizing these “defective” members in an effort (likely subconsciously) to render them invisible.

  • Gary

    tODD, @44, Yes, I am. Now as to the questions I posed, I understand the state has as much interest in how marriages end as in how they begin. I don’t begrudge the state for meddling and adding legal hoops, because returning each person to a single status, with independent legal and financial liabilities is a big deal. I don’t agree with what appears to be the majority opinion here, that divorce is overly easy. It is not. And the courts try to take very seriously the well-being and equitable support of any minor children.

    What I raised about the church making it difficult was exactly along the lines you guessed, of more-or-less showing divorced people the door. If not to that extent, then perhaps simply marginalizing these “defective” members in an effort (likely subconsciously) to render them invisible.

  • Grace

    Gary @ 50

    “What I raised about the church making it difficult was exactly along the lines you guessed, of more-or-less showing divorced people the door. If not to that extent, then perhaps simply marginalizing these “defective” members in an effort (likely subconsciously) to render them invisible.”

    I have been associated with no church who would, as you state, “showing divorced people the door” – Pastors and elders, in most churches do not allow divorced men to pastor, nor do they allow those who have been at fault (adultery) to hold any leadership, or teaching position within the church – but that has nothing to do with attending the church. Divorce is not an unpardonable sin.

    Many churches offer help and comfort to those who have gone through divorce, especially those who were the “victom” – If you have attended a church who isn’t being thoughtful, find another church. Even those who have caused the divorce, and repentant, should be welcome to attend a church, receive guidence through this time in their life. God forgives us of our sins if we repent.

  • Grace

    Gary @ 50

    “What I raised about the church making it difficult was exactly along the lines you guessed, of more-or-less showing divorced people the door. If not to that extent, then perhaps simply marginalizing these “defective” members in an effort (likely subconsciously) to render them invisible.”

    I have been associated with no church who would, as you state, “showing divorced people the door” – Pastors and elders, in most churches do not allow divorced men to pastor, nor do they allow those who have been at fault (adultery) to hold any leadership, or teaching position within the church – but that has nothing to do with attending the church. Divorce is not an unpardonable sin.

    Many churches offer help and comfort to those who have gone through divorce, especially those who were the “victom” – If you have attended a church who isn’t being thoughtful, find another church. Even those who have caused the divorce, and repentant, should be welcome to attend a church, receive guidence through this time in their life. God forgives us of our sins if we repent.

  • Grace

    Should read “victim” – I’m sorry

  • Grace

    Should read “victim” – I’m sorry

  • http://www.moeblomania.dk/Billeder/jordan-melo-bash.html ジョーダン 新作

    Hi there! I know this is somewhat off topic but I was wondering if you knew where I could get a captcha plugin for my comment form? I’m using the same blog platform as yours and I’m having problems finding one? Thanks a lot!


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