Amnesty and the economy

From Victor Davis Hanson:

Economically, why would we formalize nearly a million new legally authorized workers when unemployment is approaching its 41st consecutive month over 8 percent — especially when Democrats used to label 5.4 percent unemployment as a “jobless recovery”? Here in California, the slowing of illegal immigration, due mostly to the fence and tough times, has led to steep wage hikes for entry-level and farm labor, and given a little more clout to Americans in so-called unskilled-labor fields. In other words, it really is true that the real beneficiaries of border enforcement are low-paid Hispanic-Americans and African-Americans who become more valued when they are not competing with virtually unlimited numbers of illegal-alien workers.

via Are We in Revolutionary Times? – By Victor Davis Hanson – The Corner – National Review Online.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Kirk

    Where as before, low paid Hispanic-Americans and African-Americans were unable to compete with migrant workers that were not subject to wage-laws and were paid tax free under the table. Now they’re at least on equal footing with formerly illegal aliens. Bottom line is that yes, hiring becomes more expensive for American employers that were using illegal labor, but it market is certainly not worse for low-paid American workers. Or, at least, I don’t see the correlation

  • Kirk

    Where as before, low paid Hispanic-Americans and African-Americans were unable to compete with migrant workers that were not subject to wage-laws and were paid tax free under the table. Now they’re at least on equal footing with formerly illegal aliens. Bottom line is that yes, hiring becomes more expensive for American employers that were using illegal labor, but it market is certainly not worse for low-paid American workers. Or, at least, I don’t see the correlation

  • Susan

    @ Kirk

    Think of supply and demand. Right now, we are seeing hundreds of people, sometimes thousands of people, in competition for one semi-skilled job opening because the unemployment numbers are high. When unemployment goes down, it is easier to find employment. The same can be said of low-skill job openings where citizens are competing not only with fellow citizens (both equally qualified and those over qualified for the position because of high unemployment) but with unlimited numbers of illegals. Employers are put in the position of competition (better wages and benefits) for employees when unemployment is low or there is more of a scarcity of the employees needed. It is the market at work when it isn’t skewed by illegals creating a surplus of workers.

  • Susan

    @ Kirk

    Think of supply and demand. Right now, we are seeing hundreds of people, sometimes thousands of people, in competition for one semi-skilled job opening because the unemployment numbers are high. When unemployment goes down, it is easier to find employment. The same can be said of low-skill job openings where citizens are competing not only with fellow citizens (both equally qualified and those over qualified for the position because of high unemployment) but with unlimited numbers of illegals. Employers are put in the position of competition (better wages and benefits) for employees when unemployment is low or there is more of a scarcity of the employees needed. It is the market at work when it isn’t skewed by illegals creating a surplus of workers.

  • SKPeterson

    Susan @ 2 – We don’t have a fully free market in labor, and your lat line indicates you don’t want one either. Our labor markets are skewed by minimum wage laws and by unemployment insurance. The supply and demand for illegal workers largely hinges on the market attempting to address the distortions created by those two programs. So, illegals don’t necessarily skew the market – they are an attempt by the market to address the existing skews in the market.

    Further, we could help Mexicans and other Central Americans, as well as ourselves, by removing as many barriers to the flow of labor across borders as possible, coupled with the removal of minimum wage and unemployment insurance regulations. Absent those regulatory skewings of the market, we would see greater equilibration of wages across borders, thereby limiting the need for illegal labor – the price of labor would begin to be the same in Canada, the U.S., in Mexico and in Central America: labor markets become more responsive to labor demand and wages increase for millions across North America.

  • SKPeterson

    Susan @ 2 – We don’t have a fully free market in labor, and your lat line indicates you don’t want one either. Our labor markets are skewed by minimum wage laws and by unemployment insurance. The supply and demand for illegal workers largely hinges on the market attempting to address the distortions created by those two programs. So, illegals don’t necessarily skew the market – they are an attempt by the market to address the existing skews in the market.

    Further, we could help Mexicans and other Central Americans, as well as ourselves, by removing as many barriers to the flow of labor across borders as possible, coupled with the removal of minimum wage and unemployment insurance regulations. Absent those regulatory skewings of the market, we would see greater equilibration of wages across borders, thereby limiting the need for illegal labor – the price of labor would begin to be the same in Canada, the U.S., in Mexico and in Central America: labor markets become more responsive to labor demand and wages increase for millions across North America.

  • Kirk

    @Susan,

    I get that, but the job competition existed prior to Obama’s pronouncement. My point is that new immigration standards won’t effect unemployment rates. If anything, it makes it easier for Americans to compete with migrant workers because everyone is on the same legal playing field. It’s true that illegal immigration drives down wages for lower-income Americans. Maintaining the status quo and keeping illegals illegal is doing exactly what Hanson decries. Creating a legal structure that normalizes the status of illegals would likely serve to improve unskilled wages, not decrease them. Previously illegal aliens would be subject to the legal protections that American workers enjoy, making them equally costly to employ. Suddenly, they’re not extra cheap labor.

  • Kirk

    @Susan,

    I get that, but the job competition existed prior to Obama’s pronouncement. My point is that new immigration standards won’t effect unemployment rates. If anything, it makes it easier for Americans to compete with migrant workers because everyone is on the same legal playing field. It’s true that illegal immigration drives down wages for lower-income Americans. Maintaining the status quo and keeping illegals illegal is doing exactly what Hanson decries. Creating a legal structure that normalizes the status of illegals would likely serve to improve unskilled wages, not decrease them. Previously illegal aliens would be subject to the legal protections that American workers enjoy, making them equally costly to employ. Suddenly, they’re not extra cheap labor.

  • Susan

    @ SKPeterson,

    You are very right that this situation is more complex than what I presented. I would disagree with you about how the illegal immigration fits into the mix and the removal of all barriers to foreign work visas. What you are promoting helps well-to-do citizens and leaves them unaffected by your proposition whereas the lower income bracket citizens are not helped and negatively affected. The idea of sacrificing our lower income bracket citizens for neighboring nations is not well informed. It is very difficult to explain in comment boxes. Here is a video with Victor Davis Hanson, that may help you consider the matter more fully:

    http://fora.tv/2007/07/11/Victor_Davis_Hanson_Illegal_Immigration

  • Susan

    @ SKPeterson,

    You are very right that this situation is more complex than what I presented. I would disagree with you about how the illegal immigration fits into the mix and the removal of all barriers to foreign work visas. What you are promoting helps well-to-do citizens and leaves them unaffected by your proposition whereas the lower income bracket citizens are not helped and negatively affected. The idea of sacrificing our lower income bracket citizens for neighboring nations is not well informed. It is very difficult to explain in comment boxes. Here is a video with Victor Davis Hanson, that may help you consider the matter more fully:

    http://fora.tv/2007/07/11/Victor_Davis_Hanson_Illegal_Immigration

  • Susan

    @Kirk

    What you are proposing doesn’t not help stem the tide or stop the flow of new illegal aliens constantly coming into the workforce in the border states. We can’t absorb and assimilate the high numbers of illegal immigrants. The numbers are estimated anywhere from 11 to 20 million people. The numbers of new people from Mexico each year ranges from 450,000 to 750,000. In 2010, over 550,000 American citizens moved to the state of Texas for employment reasons. Some with jobs already secured, many are looking for employment. This is on top of unemployed Texans, and the new influxes of illegal immigrants Texas has to absorb. Please try to learn about the problems and consider how difficult the situation is for the border states (please see the video link I offered SKP).

    I would ask: Why should our state be asked to bear the burden of paying the costs of your largesse? California is already being bankrupted, in large part from the costs of their illegals. What is your state willing to do? How many of your state’s low income citizens are you willing to put out of work? How many of your at-risk citizens (elderly, disabled, etc.) are you willing to hurt in the competition for public welfare dollars? How much is your state willing to raise taxes to pay for the costs? As you can see, I’m asking you to begin to consider the depth of the problems. It’s real in Texas not an academic exercise in abstracts.

  • Susan

    @Kirk

    What you are proposing doesn’t not help stem the tide or stop the flow of new illegal aliens constantly coming into the workforce in the border states. We can’t absorb and assimilate the high numbers of illegal immigrants. The numbers are estimated anywhere from 11 to 20 million people. The numbers of new people from Mexico each year ranges from 450,000 to 750,000. In 2010, over 550,000 American citizens moved to the state of Texas for employment reasons. Some with jobs already secured, many are looking for employment. This is on top of unemployed Texans, and the new influxes of illegal immigrants Texas has to absorb. Please try to learn about the problems and consider how difficult the situation is for the border states (please see the video link I offered SKP).

    I would ask: Why should our state be asked to bear the burden of paying the costs of your largesse? California is already being bankrupted, in large part from the costs of their illegals. What is your state willing to do? How many of your state’s low income citizens are you willing to put out of work? How many of your at-risk citizens (elderly, disabled, etc.) are you willing to hurt in the competition for public welfare dollars? How much is your state willing to raise taxes to pay for the costs? As you can see, I’m asking you to begin to consider the depth of the problems. It’s real in Texas not an academic exercise in abstracts.

  • Susan

    @ Kirk and SKPeterson

    Here is another source of information that should be considered. It is a video of Victor Davis Hanson, Heather MacDonald, and Steve Malanga addressing the reality of illegal immigration:

    http://www.booktv.org/Watch/8790/The+Immigration+Solution+A+Better+Plan+Than+Todays.aspx

    I would ask you similar questions that I asked another commenter in another thread:

    In what way do your immigration ideas adhere to the principle of do no harm to a third party? Or have considered how assimilation happens and the time it takes for assimilation to work or the need for manageable numbers for assimilation to happen? Should the most vulnerable people in our citizenry be forced, under the guise of magnanimity for competition from illegal immigrants, to lose their incomes, watch their schools and neighborhoods disintegrate, watch the illegals overwhelm the ER care for the indigent care at local hospitals, and/or be forced into the welfare system because of the added burdens of illegal aliens to their communities? It’s easy to give away other people’s income, homes, neighborhoods, schools, medical care, and so forth. Are you willing to give up your income, your home, your neighborhood, your schools, your access to emergency medical care, and become destitute for open borders? I think not. The subject is much more complex than I think you recognize.

  • Susan

    @ Kirk and SKPeterson

    Here is another source of information that should be considered. It is a video of Victor Davis Hanson, Heather MacDonald, and Steve Malanga addressing the reality of illegal immigration:

    http://www.booktv.org/Watch/8790/The+Immigration+Solution+A+Better+Plan+Than+Todays.aspx

    I would ask you similar questions that I asked another commenter in another thread:

    In what way do your immigration ideas adhere to the principle of do no harm to a third party? Or have considered how assimilation happens and the time it takes for assimilation to work or the need for manageable numbers for assimilation to happen? Should the most vulnerable people in our citizenry be forced, under the guise of magnanimity for competition from illegal immigrants, to lose their incomes, watch their schools and neighborhoods disintegrate, watch the illegals overwhelm the ER care for the indigent care at local hospitals, and/or be forced into the welfare system because of the added burdens of illegal aliens to their communities? It’s easy to give away other people’s income, homes, neighborhoods, schools, medical care, and so forth. Are you willing to give up your income, your home, your neighborhood, your schools, your access to emergency medical care, and become destitute for open borders? I think not. The subject is much more complex than I think you recognize.

  • DonS

    I have grave concerns about Obama’s new announced policy, for a number of reasons, most dominant of which is that it is a baldly political ploy and there is no legal basis for his decision to issue work permits to illegals. He should have, in the spirit of the bipartisanship he espoused during his 2008 campaign, jumped on the opportunity to work with Marco Rubio last month, instead of rejecting Rubio’s similar proposals out-of-hand, to work through the legislative process, and then going solo with his own executive order to ensure that he got all the credit. The negotiation process would have helped to address some of these issues that Susan brings up, most particularly the disparate impact of illegal immigration on my state of California, her state of Texas, and other border states.

    Nonetheless, protectionism is a horrible argument against this policy. That’s a union-style argument that is not rooted in the notion of creating and nurturing a growing economy. For one thing, since it is obvious that we are not going to work to actively remove the illegal residents in these categories, it’s better if they are allowed to work and be productive rather than simply absorbing taxpayer handouts through social welfare programs, most of which they have access to even though they are illegal. Our emphasis should be on enacting governmental economic growth policies so that employment levels can increase, namely aproduction-friendly and more streamlined tax system, pro-growth regulatory policies, and re-focusing on infrastructure development and maintenance rather than transfer payment programs.

  • DonS

    I have grave concerns about Obama’s new announced policy, for a number of reasons, most dominant of which is that it is a baldly political ploy and there is no legal basis for his decision to issue work permits to illegals. He should have, in the spirit of the bipartisanship he espoused during his 2008 campaign, jumped on the opportunity to work with Marco Rubio last month, instead of rejecting Rubio’s similar proposals out-of-hand, to work through the legislative process, and then going solo with his own executive order to ensure that he got all the credit. The negotiation process would have helped to address some of these issues that Susan brings up, most particularly the disparate impact of illegal immigration on my state of California, her state of Texas, and other border states.

    Nonetheless, protectionism is a horrible argument against this policy. That’s a union-style argument that is not rooted in the notion of creating and nurturing a growing economy. For one thing, since it is obvious that we are not going to work to actively remove the illegal residents in these categories, it’s better if they are allowed to work and be productive rather than simply absorbing taxpayer handouts through social welfare programs, most of which they have access to even though they are illegal. Our emphasis should be on enacting governmental economic growth policies so that employment levels can increase, namely aproduction-friendly and more streamlined tax system, pro-growth regulatory policies, and re-focusing on infrastructure development and maintenance rather than transfer payment programs.

  • SKPeterson

    I recognize the complexity of the problem. However, it is generally the “build a wall” people who oversimplify the equation. The excuse of spillover effects to third parties in controlling immigration is an interesting position. I think it’s total crap, myself, but I understand how some might rationalize it. What exactly are these spillover effects and how do they manifest themselves? How are they measured? Are spillovers always net negatives?

    As to the most vulnerable in our communities being displaced by illegal immigrants – that is almost laughable on the face of it. These are people who provide less value per labor hour of output than the minimum wage, yet refuse to even work for the minimum wage. And you wonder why illegal aliens are able to displace them – illegal aliens who work are more valuable to employers than many of our fellow citizens. Sorry to say this, but many illegal immigrants are better Americans than most of the people that make up our “most vulnerable.” The schools and neighborhoods of the most vulnerable have already deteriorated thanks to the concerns the “most vulnerable.” The “most vulnerable” have burned over a good portion of Detroit and set it on the path to reverting to nature. the “most vulnerable” are doing the same thing to large parts of Philadelphia. What do we owe to the “most vulnerable” that we also don’t owe to the immigrant? If the concern is the burden on social welfare services and the attraction of those services to illegal immigrants, simple end those programs. Why should those services be provided on the public dollar even to citizens? And how exactly are we giving away the homes, incomes and medical care of the “most vulnerable.” They are already consuming it from the excess largess of the public fisc, without contributing anything themselves.

    Here’s the upshot: I’m willing to take the chance that there will be a net benefit from having workers come to the US over and above the costs associated with those who will simply join our “most vulnerable” class.

    You ask “Are you willing to give up your income, your home, your neighborhood, your schools, your access to emergency medical care, and become destitute for open borders?” Yes. Or rather I’m willing to take the risk. In fact, many of us here on this forum operate in a globalized environment, in which we compete across borders or compete with global talent for our positions. Many of us no longer live in the communities in which we were born. Many of us have lived in several different communities as we have followed different opportunities around the nation and around the globe. I have colleagues who come from several different countries, and I have colleagues who have moved abroad. Have they displaced people, caused their incomes to go down, ruined their futures? Maybe. But I doubt it. Why are those of us who face global competition for our positions and opportunities any different from the pool of labor being drawn at the lower end into America? We differ only in the value of our wage rates and level of our specialization. But both groups are looking for the opportunity to work, to earn a wage commensurate with our labor inputs, and increase our opportunities or those of our families. That is where the real complexity of the situation derives – it is the complexity of human race.

  • SKPeterson

    I recognize the complexity of the problem. However, it is generally the “build a wall” people who oversimplify the equation. The excuse of spillover effects to third parties in controlling immigration is an interesting position. I think it’s total crap, myself, but I understand how some might rationalize it. What exactly are these spillover effects and how do they manifest themselves? How are they measured? Are spillovers always net negatives?

    As to the most vulnerable in our communities being displaced by illegal immigrants – that is almost laughable on the face of it. These are people who provide less value per labor hour of output than the minimum wage, yet refuse to even work for the minimum wage. And you wonder why illegal aliens are able to displace them – illegal aliens who work are more valuable to employers than many of our fellow citizens. Sorry to say this, but many illegal immigrants are better Americans than most of the people that make up our “most vulnerable.” The schools and neighborhoods of the most vulnerable have already deteriorated thanks to the concerns the “most vulnerable.” The “most vulnerable” have burned over a good portion of Detroit and set it on the path to reverting to nature. the “most vulnerable” are doing the same thing to large parts of Philadelphia. What do we owe to the “most vulnerable” that we also don’t owe to the immigrant? If the concern is the burden on social welfare services and the attraction of those services to illegal immigrants, simple end those programs. Why should those services be provided on the public dollar even to citizens? And how exactly are we giving away the homes, incomes and medical care of the “most vulnerable.” They are already consuming it from the excess largess of the public fisc, without contributing anything themselves.

    Here’s the upshot: I’m willing to take the chance that there will be a net benefit from having workers come to the US over and above the costs associated with those who will simply join our “most vulnerable” class.

    You ask “Are you willing to give up your income, your home, your neighborhood, your schools, your access to emergency medical care, and become destitute for open borders?” Yes. Or rather I’m willing to take the risk. In fact, many of us here on this forum operate in a globalized environment, in which we compete across borders or compete with global talent for our positions. Many of us no longer live in the communities in which we were born. Many of us have lived in several different communities as we have followed different opportunities around the nation and around the globe. I have colleagues who come from several different countries, and I have colleagues who have moved abroad. Have they displaced people, caused their incomes to go down, ruined their futures? Maybe. But I doubt it. Why are those of us who face global competition for our positions and opportunities any different from the pool of labor being drawn at the lower end into America? We differ only in the value of our wage rates and level of our specialization. But both groups are looking for the opportunity to work, to earn a wage commensurate with our labor inputs, and increase our opportunities or those of our families. That is where the real complexity of the situation derives – it is the complexity of human race.

  • Kirk

    @Susan

    You’re not understanding. Yes, illegal immigrants cost communities money. Some money. Not exorbitant amounts of money and certainly not the apocalyptic, society ending amounts of money that you’re suggesting. But still, they do place a burden on services, particularly local services. But here’s the complexity that you’re failing to recognize: immigrants do make money, do pay taxes, do contribute to the economy and can be more productive members of society. Immigrants don’t come to America and just bilk off of our services and emergency medical care.

    See: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-immigration.pdf

    The kicker, and the point I’m trying to make, is that net drain that they are on local services as illegal immigrants can be offset by normalizing their status. Give an immigrant a social security number and he can do things like get health insurance, reducing his dependence on emergency medical care. Give him a work permit and he starts paying taxes and social security/medicare taxes from his paycheck. Give him the protection of labor laws (sorry SK) and he becomes an equal competitor in the job market. Make him legal and you reduce the burden and associated costs of tracking him down and deporting him (which is the biggest economic burden caused by illegal immigration, btw). I’m not suggesting that this will solve all the problems associated with immigration, but it will go a long way.

    I’m not arguing for open borders. I’m arguing for a better border policy than “build that there wall to keep them Mexicans where they belong.” That includes more work permits, easier paths to citizenship, special considerations for immigrants from neighboring countries, the legalization of some drugs and, yes, amnesty for illegal immigrants currently living in the United States. But, bottom line: our current immigration strategy of exclusions and enforcement doesn’t work. More exclusion and enforcement won’t change that.

  • Kirk

    @Susan

    You’re not understanding. Yes, illegal immigrants cost communities money. Some money. Not exorbitant amounts of money and certainly not the apocalyptic, society ending amounts of money that you’re suggesting. But still, they do place a burden on services, particularly local services. But here’s the complexity that you’re failing to recognize: immigrants do make money, do pay taxes, do contribute to the economy and can be more productive members of society. Immigrants don’t come to America and just bilk off of our services and emergency medical care.

    See: http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-immigration.pdf

    The kicker, and the point I’m trying to make, is that net drain that they are on local services as illegal immigrants can be offset by normalizing their status. Give an immigrant a social security number and he can do things like get health insurance, reducing his dependence on emergency medical care. Give him a work permit and he starts paying taxes and social security/medicare taxes from his paycheck. Give him the protection of labor laws (sorry SK) and he becomes an equal competitor in the job market. Make him legal and you reduce the burden and associated costs of tracking him down and deporting him (which is the biggest economic burden caused by illegal immigration, btw). I’m not suggesting that this will solve all the problems associated with immigration, but it will go a long way.

    I’m not arguing for open borders. I’m arguing for a better border policy than “build that there wall to keep them Mexicans where they belong.” That includes more work permits, easier paths to citizenship, special considerations for immigrants from neighboring countries, the legalization of some drugs and, yes, amnesty for illegal immigrants currently living in the United States. But, bottom line: our current immigration strategy of exclusions and enforcement doesn’t work. More exclusion and enforcement won’t change that.

  • Kirk

    @Don,

    Yes! The result of Obama’s policy is good, but his method is appalling. Comprehensive immigration reform can’t be parceled up and shouldn’t be used to score a voting block. And, it definitely shouldn’t be accomplished through executive fiat.

  • Kirk

    @Don,

    Yes! The result of Obama’s policy is good, but his method is appalling. Comprehensive immigration reform can’t be parceled up and shouldn’t be used to score a voting block. And, it definitely shouldn’t be accomplished through executive fiat.

  • Susan

    @SKPeterson

    Please feel free to upgrade your mockery after reading this article: http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson091811.html and this one: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/286354/vandalized-valley-victor-davis-hanson Try watching the videos. Please continue to laugh and tell us what fools we are.

    In the meantime: It’s obvious you don’t live in a border state where the ER waiting rooms are filled with people spilling into the hospital grounds and where people have been known to wait up to 72 hours to be seen. How would you like to live in a county with a population of 4.8 million that has only one hospital that accepts the indigent, is always overflowing, and always challenged for funds and danger of running out of funds? Yes, many of the most vulnerable go there, our elderly, our poor, our disabled citizens, they are competing for these services with the illegals often making up from 1/3 to 1/2 of the people waiting. And that’s that just one item on the list of problems.

    Mock all you wish. It doesn’t change the reality that this is the ordinary reality of daily life in many lower income areas. And since you are willing to bet that it’s not a problem, I accept your bet on the condition that you transport 750,000 of them to your state and place at least 1/3 of them in your county. Plus you must bring in at least another 20,000 per month for the next 5 years. Then call me and we’ll see how the social darwinism (survival of the fittest) experiment of open borders is working out.

  • Susan

    @SKPeterson

    Please feel free to upgrade your mockery after reading this article: http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson091811.html and this one: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/286354/vandalized-valley-victor-davis-hanson Try watching the videos. Please continue to laugh and tell us what fools we are.

    In the meantime: It’s obvious you don’t live in a border state where the ER waiting rooms are filled with people spilling into the hospital grounds and where people have been known to wait up to 72 hours to be seen. How would you like to live in a county with a population of 4.8 million that has only one hospital that accepts the indigent, is always overflowing, and always challenged for funds and danger of running out of funds? Yes, many of the most vulnerable go there, our elderly, our poor, our disabled citizens, they are competing for these services with the illegals often making up from 1/3 to 1/2 of the people waiting. And that’s that just one item on the list of problems.

    Mock all you wish. It doesn’t change the reality that this is the ordinary reality of daily life in many lower income areas. And since you are willing to bet that it’s not a problem, I accept your bet on the condition that you transport 750,000 of them to your state and place at least 1/3 of them in your county. Plus you must bring in at least another 20,000 per month for the next 5 years. Then call me and we’ll see how the social darwinism (survival of the fittest) experiment of open borders is working out.

  • Grace

    Susan has made some excellent points.

    If those of you who oppose the points she has presented – I wish we could, from California bring a few million to your state, and see how you fare after a few months. Including public schools, crime, jobs disappearing, health care, etc., OH, I forgot to include drugs.

    I don’t THINK, I KNOW, you would sing another song.

  • Grace

    Susan has made some excellent points.

    If those of you who oppose the points she has presented – I wish we could, from California bring a few million to your state, and see how you fare after a few months. Including public schools, crime, jobs disappearing, health care, etc., OH, I forgot to include drugs.

    I don’t THINK, I KNOW, you would sing another song.

  • Grace

    Susan

    The ER waiting room is a serious problem, I totally understand. Can you give a general area where you live, without giving the city, in Calilfornia.

    There is another situation I would very much like to present, that you might have some knowledge.

  • Grace

    Susan

    The ER waiting room is a serious problem, I totally understand. Can you give a general area where you live, without giving the city, in Calilfornia.

    There is another situation I would very much like to present, that you might have some knowledge.

  • Grace

    I’m sorry Susan, I now remember you live in Texas, after reading DonS post. Texas has most of the same problems California has.

  • Grace

    I’m sorry Susan, I now remember you live in Texas, after reading DonS post. Texas has most of the same problems California has.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @3 yeah, it would be a great help if an unlimited number of doctors, lawyers and engineers were allowed to immigrate and depressed the salaries of those positions. I mean there is probably an engineer somewhere in the world willing to work for $35 K in Canada.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @3 yeah, it would be a great help if an unlimited number of doctors, lawyers and engineers were allowed to immigrate and depressed the salaries of those positions. I mean there is probably an engineer somewhere in the world willing to work for $35 K in Canada.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t think anyone in Congress wants immigration reform.

    They are virtually worthless as workers once they are legalized because then they can’t easily be threatened with deportation etc. They only reason that employers like illegals is that they can be abused with impunity.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t think anyone in Congress wants immigration reform.

    They are virtually worthless as workers once they are legalized because then they can’t easily be threatened with deportation etc. They only reason that employers like illegals is that they can be abused with impunity.

  • Susan

    @DonS

    Please check out the first link (offered to SKP) where VDH addresses the protectionist objections and some of the other charges. In that video, I think he does a very good job laying out many of the different sides taken regarding immigration. I doubt any of us would agree with him 100%, but he offers much food for thought. The second link I offered to both Kirk and SKP with the panel of speakers and the articles are worth looking at also. I would love to hear your feedback if you have the time and inclination. Thanks.

  • Susan

    @DonS

    Please check out the first link (offered to SKP) where VDH addresses the protectionist objections and some of the other charges. In that video, I think he does a very good job laying out many of the different sides taken regarding immigration. I doubt any of us would agree with him 100%, but he offers much food for thought. The second link I offered to both Kirk and SKP with the panel of speakers and the articles are worth looking at also. I would love to hear your feedback if you have the time and inclination. Thanks.

  • Grace

    If the situation continues, and illegal aliens are allowed to stay, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a program to offer, pay for, and transport the “once illigal aliens” across the U.S., giving everyone of them, and every state, a fair chance to spread their opportunities.

    I believe that might be a dandy idea!

  • Grace

    If the situation continues, and illegal aliens are allowed to stay, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a program to offer, pay for, and transport the “once illigal aliens” across the U.S., giving everyone of them, and every state, a fair chance to spread their opportunities.

    I believe that might be a dandy idea!

  • Grace

    Think of it this way:

    You could hire more teachers, health professionals, and a raft of other services could be instituted to offer the ‘once illegal aliens their fair share share. The states with the least amount of ‘once illegals would have more individuals to rent their property, work in their fast food, etc., etc. Think of all the tax benefits the ‘once illegals would bring to your state.

  • Grace

    Think of it this way:

    You could hire more teachers, health professionals, and a raft of other services could be instituted to offer the ‘once illegal aliens their fair share share. The states with the least amount of ‘once illegals would have more individuals to rent their property, work in their fast food, etc., etc. Think of all the tax benefits the ‘once illegals would bring to your state.

  • Susan

    @ Grace,

    Nothing quite like being Cassandra on this subject! Or not understanding how effective Obama’s class warfare rhetoric can be in these situations. I live in Dallas county. The upper class and wealthy here benefit greatly from the cheap labor, but the conditions in the poorer neighborhoods can be heart rending. I know too many middle-class people with university degrees and over age 50 who have been laid off in the last few years and who can’t find work and/or are working part-time and/or for 1/2 of what they used to make. A couple of them have even depleted their retirement savings.

    I’d love to hear your feedback from the videos and articles too, if it works for you. If people won’t listen/learn there’s not much anyone can do.

  • Susan

    @ Grace,

    Nothing quite like being Cassandra on this subject! Or not understanding how effective Obama’s class warfare rhetoric can be in these situations. I live in Dallas county. The upper class and wealthy here benefit greatly from the cheap labor, but the conditions in the poorer neighborhoods can be heart rending. I know too many middle-class people with university degrees and over age 50 who have been laid off in the last few years and who can’t find work and/or are working part-time and/or for 1/2 of what they used to make. A couple of them have even depleted their retirement savings.

    I’d love to hear your feedback from the videos and articles too, if it works for you. If people won’t listen/learn there’s not much anyone can do.

  • Grace

    Susan

    I checked out the LINKS you gave @12. Do you remember some of the posts I made on “Obama decrees amnesty for young illegals” ? – the blog posted June 15, 2012.

    http://www.geneveith.com/2012/06/15/obama-decrees-amnesty-for-young-illegals/

    It’s a serious problem, but those in other states have no idea what it will be like when the ‘once illegal aliens can travel freely into THEIR STATE. It will finally dawn on them, how many, and how fast their population will grow – less jobs, more welfare type help, not to mention the public education system and health.

    And then there is the drug trade.

  • Grace

    Susan

    I checked out the LINKS you gave @12. Do you remember some of the posts I made on “Obama decrees amnesty for young illegals” ? – the blog posted June 15, 2012.

    http://www.geneveith.com/2012/06/15/obama-decrees-amnesty-for-young-illegals/

    It’s a serious problem, but those in other states have no idea what it will be like when the ‘once illegal aliens can travel freely into THEIR STATE. It will finally dawn on them, how many, and how fast their population will grow – less jobs, more welfare type help, not to mention the public education system and health.

    And then there is the drug trade.

  • Grace

    Susan,

    Those who have lost their positions here, (college educations, excellent careers) is tragic. People just as you say, using their retirement savings, homes, etc. It’s a terrible situation.

    A man and his wife lost their home, just down the street from us. He not only lost the building that housed his business but his buisness as well. He left for Florida with his wife. It was a sad day. I can still remember them trying to sell everything they owned, the entire community had no idea they had lost everything.

  • Grace

    Susan,

    Those who have lost their positions here, (college educations, excellent careers) is tragic. People just as you say, using their retirement savings, homes, etc. It’s a terrible situation.

    A man and his wife lost their home, just down the street from us. He not only lost the building that housed his business but his buisness as well. He left for Florida with his wife. It was a sad day. I can still remember them trying to sell everything they owned, the entire community had no idea they had lost everything.

  • Grace

    Susan – another point I should have made. Where we live, the gardners have been aware of strict laws pertaining – NO working on Sunday, it’s illegal here, or after 7PM Monday through Saturday. But alas, as of a few weeks ago, they now ignore the law, and do as they please. The laws mean nothing.

  • Grace

    Susan – another point I should have made. Where we live, the gardners have been aware of strict laws pertaining – NO working on Sunday, it’s illegal here, or after 7PM Monday through Saturday. But alas, as of a few weeks ago, they now ignore the law, and do as they please. The laws mean nothing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It all comes back to whether citizens have the right of self government or not.

    If the citizens have the right to set immigration policy, does the executive branch have to enforce it? Or can he thwart the will of the people and just direct the law enforcement agencies to ignore the law?

    If you remember the story of the Little Red Hen, where she does all the work to make a loaf of bread and can’t get help from others, then you can see the mindset of those who came to the US to build the kind of place in which they wanted to live. Now others see that they have built this great country and like the lovely loaf of bread, they would like some. The problem is that they aren’t the sorts who create, just eat. We know that because we can see what their home countries are like.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It all comes back to whether citizens have the right of self government or not.

    If the citizens have the right to set immigration policy, does the executive branch have to enforce it? Or can he thwart the will of the people and just direct the law enforcement agencies to ignore the law?

    If you remember the story of the Little Red Hen, where she does all the work to make a loaf of bread and can’t get help from others, then you can see the mindset of those who came to the US to build the kind of place in which they wanted to live. Now others see that they have built this great country and like the lovely loaf of bread, they would like some. The problem is that they aren’t the sorts who create, just eat. We know that because we can see what their home countries are like.

  • Kirk

    @sg

    How do you arrive at that conclusion? Didn’t, at one point, everyone who built this country leave their home countries for a better life? Or are you suggesting that the Puritans should never have come here, and instead tried to improve England. What about the people who moved west during the 19th century? Should they have simply stuck it out on the east coast, or are they terrible for seeking new lands. And what about you? Do you still live in your home town, or did you move somewhere else for work or preference? For shame!

    Next time, take that kind of talk and shove it. Your generalization, aside from being patently untrue and absurd, is offensive.

  • Kirk

    @sg

    How do you arrive at that conclusion? Didn’t, at one point, everyone who built this country leave their home countries for a better life? Or are you suggesting that the Puritans should never have come here, and instead tried to improve England. What about the people who moved west during the 19th century? Should they have simply stuck it out on the east coast, or are they terrible for seeking new lands. And what about you? Do you still live in your home town, or did you move somewhere else for work or preference? For shame!

    Next time, take that kind of talk and shove it. Your generalization, aside from being patently untrue and absurd, is offensive.

  • Grace

    Kirk @ 26

    YOU WROTE: “Or are you suggesting that the Puritans should never have come here, and instead tried to improve England. “

    Freedom of religion was one of the main reasons. This country was the perfect place for them to come. It was unsettled, it was raw land.

    The remarks you make about Puritans, etc., are not based on logic. When those people came here, they , worked, sowed the land, built their homes, log cabins, out houses, organized and planned. They didn’t take jobs from anyone, they were SELF SUFFICIENT.

    Those who migrated to the West, again were coming to a new area, one in which they worked, built, and cultivated. They quickly enhanced the middle west and the west. They died coming across the plains, bringing their families and what little they had.

    Look at the country we enjoy today, who do you think were the founders, the builders, that labored in deplorable conditions.

    Those who established, and wrote the Constitution, our Founding Fathers.

    The most important thing to remember is; God AMIGHTY guided this country, no matter how much to the contrary the atheist like to rant. This country has changed, many who live here, don’t believe in the LORD Jesus Christ – that’s their right, they have that freedom. But they may not break our laws, to make our country to resemble the ONES THEY LEFT. Our landscape has changed, if you can’t see it, I suggest you travel, look at the border states, look at our young people, the drugs – most of it came from south of the border.

    When I was in high school, those who were from south of the border, (about 100south of the border – in a H.S. of 3,500) for the most part, were the only gangs in town, they were the ones who brought in the drugs – heroin, cocaine, etc. It melted over to the other side, who foolishly took part.

    One half of my family came here in the early 1820′s? – they worked hard in the middle west, they farmed, they didn’t expect anyone to give them a free ride. They suffered through all sorts of weather, and defeat when the crops were destroyed.

    The U.S. is overflowing with people, millions upon millions are illegal aliens. We made laws to cut back on immigration, that was the only way to cut the tide of those who came. Our country cannot house the entire populations of this world who have decided, they won’t work their own land, they don’t build, they want a FREE RIDE!

  • Grace

    Kirk @ 26

    YOU WROTE: “Or are you suggesting that the Puritans should never have come here, and instead tried to improve England. “

    Freedom of religion was one of the main reasons. This country was the perfect place for them to come. It was unsettled, it was raw land.

    The remarks you make about Puritans, etc., are not based on logic. When those people came here, they , worked, sowed the land, built their homes, log cabins, out houses, organized and planned. They didn’t take jobs from anyone, they were SELF SUFFICIENT.

    Those who migrated to the West, again were coming to a new area, one in which they worked, built, and cultivated. They quickly enhanced the middle west and the west. They died coming across the plains, bringing their families and what little they had.

    Look at the country we enjoy today, who do you think were the founders, the builders, that labored in deplorable conditions.

    Those who established, and wrote the Constitution, our Founding Fathers.

    The most important thing to remember is; God AMIGHTY guided this country, no matter how much to the contrary the atheist like to rant. This country has changed, many who live here, don’t believe in the LORD Jesus Christ – that’s their right, they have that freedom. But they may not break our laws, to make our country to resemble the ONES THEY LEFT. Our landscape has changed, if you can’t see it, I suggest you travel, look at the border states, look at our young people, the drugs – most of it came from south of the border.

    When I was in high school, those who were from south of the border, (about 100south of the border – in a H.S. of 3,500) for the most part, were the only gangs in town, they were the ones who brought in the drugs – heroin, cocaine, etc. It melted over to the other side, who foolishly took part.

    One half of my family came here in the early 1820′s? – they worked hard in the middle west, they farmed, they didn’t expect anyone to give them a free ride. They suffered through all sorts of weather, and defeat when the crops were destroyed.

    The U.S. is overflowing with people, millions upon millions are illegal aliens. We made laws to cut back on immigration, that was the only way to cut the tide of those who came. Our country cannot house the entire populations of this world who have decided, they won’t work their own land, they don’t build, they want a FREE RIDE!

  • Grace

    Kirk @ 26

    You SNAPPED to SG – Next time, take that kind of talk and shove it.

    This coming from a male to SG, a lady. Your photo is that of a child, perhaps that’s just what you are, making that SNARKY remark!

  • Grace

    Kirk @ 26

    You SNAPPED to SG – Next time, take that kind of talk and shove it.

    This coming from a male to SG, a lady. Your photo is that of a child, perhaps that’s just what you are, making that SNARKY remark!

  • Susan

    @ Kirk

    What Obama did is not good and makes the situation worse. Rubio and several other congressmen had a modified DREAM plan that they thought there would be enough support to pass it and were ready to introduce it as a bill. Apparently, Obama didn’t want to lose the Hispanic vote and made a rash executive order that is not thought through in order to preempt it. Obama’s order is not even a short term solution because the Immigration Department doesn’t have the logistics to handle the numbers of people involved. It’s disingenuous because it’s barely temporary and Obama can rescind it at will. It’s also disingenuous towards the public because of all the loopholes and it’s estimated that it will probably involve 2x the number of people. Let’s add 1.6 million new people to the workforce in a rash move that will end disappointing the Hispanics communities because it’s not codified by congress and will be challenged in the courts. Rubio’s bill has now been shelved because Obama blew up the situation and angered the people Rubio needed to get on board for the bill. Am I ticked at the bill not even having a chance now? You betcha, I care just as much for the illegals and Hispanic community as I do the rest of us. And they just got jerked around for votes.

    I am not opposed to thoughtful legislation in immigration reform. I tend to agree with some of VDH’s general proposals: the borders have to be closed with a moratorium period on immigration so we can begin the process of assimilation of those who are here and resume a sane measure of immigration that the nation can absorb (dreams are free – right?). In the video, you can see some people who don’t like the idea start walking out. It’s going to be hard work to come up with something most people can agree on. I would like to see it hammered out in congress and not the stupidity of the thoughtless, wham-bam, push it through Obamacare legislation. It should take more than a year or two to consider all of the multiple problems and possible unintended consequences. I wish people would watch the videos and read the articles. They are thoughtful and helpful towards making more informed opinions.

    One of the problems I see with the CBO report you offered is that it’s 5 years old and they don’t have a clue how many people we’re dealing with. 12 or 20 million? I would guess it’s much closer to 20 than 12. And the numbers I’ve heard about the costs per illegal are much higher than the CBO. Please check out the videos. They have quite a few numbers there.

    I would also disagree with you on exclusion and enforcement. They do work. Well. Think Rudy Giuliani and the crime in NYC and the broken window theory. It works and Giulliani proved it. Crime went down 70% – not too shabby – eh?

  • Susan

    @ Kirk

    What Obama did is not good and makes the situation worse. Rubio and several other congressmen had a modified DREAM plan that they thought there would be enough support to pass it and were ready to introduce it as a bill. Apparently, Obama didn’t want to lose the Hispanic vote and made a rash executive order that is not thought through in order to preempt it. Obama’s order is not even a short term solution because the Immigration Department doesn’t have the logistics to handle the numbers of people involved. It’s disingenuous because it’s barely temporary and Obama can rescind it at will. It’s also disingenuous towards the public because of all the loopholes and it’s estimated that it will probably involve 2x the number of people. Let’s add 1.6 million new people to the workforce in a rash move that will end disappointing the Hispanics communities because it’s not codified by congress and will be challenged in the courts. Rubio’s bill has now been shelved because Obama blew up the situation and angered the people Rubio needed to get on board for the bill. Am I ticked at the bill not even having a chance now? You betcha, I care just as much for the illegals and Hispanic community as I do the rest of us. And they just got jerked around for votes.

    I am not opposed to thoughtful legislation in immigration reform. I tend to agree with some of VDH’s general proposals: the borders have to be closed with a moratorium period on immigration so we can begin the process of assimilation of those who are here and resume a sane measure of immigration that the nation can absorb (dreams are free – right?). In the video, you can see some people who don’t like the idea start walking out. It’s going to be hard work to come up with something most people can agree on. I would like to see it hammered out in congress and not the stupidity of the thoughtless, wham-bam, push it through Obamacare legislation. It should take more than a year or two to consider all of the multiple problems and possible unintended consequences. I wish people would watch the videos and read the articles. They are thoughtful and helpful towards making more informed opinions.

    One of the problems I see with the CBO report you offered is that it’s 5 years old and they don’t have a clue how many people we’re dealing with. 12 or 20 million? I would guess it’s much closer to 20 than 12. And the numbers I’ve heard about the costs per illegal are much higher than the CBO. Please check out the videos. They have quite a few numbers there.

    I would also disagree with you on exclusion and enforcement. They do work. Well. Think Rudy Giuliani and the crime in NYC and the broken window theory. It works and Giulliani proved it. Crime went down 70% – not too shabby – eh?

  • Kirk

    @27 With that kind of talk, one would assume that you wrote, or were somehow responsible for writing the laws of this land, that you came over here and settled things, built that infrastructure, fought the wars and generally made America the way it is. Oh wait, nope! You were born into it. You are benefiting from the hard work of people that lived and died before you existed. You didn’t start from zero. You’re as undeserving of this land and its benefits as anyone, you just got lucky enough to be born into its citizenry. The only thing that separates you from a Mexican migrant is who your parents are. Remember that when you’re on your high horse.

    And what are you saying that the Hispanic people in America weren’t guided here by God in the same way that Europeans were? When, pray tell, did God stop guiding immigrants to our country. Did it end with the English? The Dutch? The Germans? The Poles? The Italians? The Irish? The Chinese? The Jews? The Serbs? The Arabs? Or any migrant wave that came to our shores (and, mind you, was decried by people similar to yourself using essentially the same rhetoric that you’re using).

    Listen, I agree, anyone who comes to our country needs to obey our laws. Just because a part of a group of people is criminal (and there’s a criminal element of every ethnopolitical group) doesn’t mean that the group can be dismissed wholesale as being malicious lawbreakers.

    So, in spite of your anecdotes about the mass criminality of Hispanic Americans (which, btw, are contrary to crime statistics), racist generalizations that Hispanic people, or people of any race, are inherently criminal can be shoved. They wrong, stupid and immoral.

  • Kirk

    @27 With that kind of talk, one would assume that you wrote, or were somehow responsible for writing the laws of this land, that you came over here and settled things, built that infrastructure, fought the wars and generally made America the way it is. Oh wait, nope! You were born into it. You are benefiting from the hard work of people that lived and died before you existed. You didn’t start from zero. You’re as undeserving of this land and its benefits as anyone, you just got lucky enough to be born into its citizenry. The only thing that separates you from a Mexican migrant is who your parents are. Remember that when you’re on your high horse.

    And what are you saying that the Hispanic people in America weren’t guided here by God in the same way that Europeans were? When, pray tell, did God stop guiding immigrants to our country. Did it end with the English? The Dutch? The Germans? The Poles? The Italians? The Irish? The Chinese? The Jews? The Serbs? The Arabs? Or any migrant wave that came to our shores (and, mind you, was decried by people similar to yourself using essentially the same rhetoric that you’re using).

    Listen, I agree, anyone who comes to our country needs to obey our laws. Just because a part of a group of people is criminal (and there’s a criminal element of every ethnopolitical group) doesn’t mean that the group can be dismissed wholesale as being malicious lawbreakers.

    So, in spite of your anecdotes about the mass criminality of Hispanic Americans (which, btw, are contrary to crime statistics), racist generalizations that Hispanic people, or people of any race, are inherently criminal can be shoved. They wrong, stupid and immoral.

  • Grace

    Brian Terry family ‘disappointed’ with Obama on Fast and Furious

    June 20, 2012

    “The family of slain Border Patrol agent Brian Terry have released the following statement, on the day the House Oversight Committee weighs a Contempt of Congress Resolution against Attorney General Holder, for his failure to disclose information related to Operation Fast and Furious.”

    BELOW, is a small part of the families comment:

    Our son, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by members of a Mexican drug cartel armed with weapons from this failed Justice Department gun trafficking investigation.

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/brian-terry-family-disappointed-with-obama-on-fast-and-furious/article/2500190

    Read the rest of the short statement made by this young mans family – very SAD!

  • Grace

    Brian Terry family ‘disappointed’ with Obama on Fast and Furious

    June 20, 2012

    “The family of slain Border Patrol agent Brian Terry have released the following statement, on the day the House Oversight Committee weighs a Contempt of Congress Resolution against Attorney General Holder, for his failure to disclose information related to Operation Fast and Furious.”

    BELOW, is a small part of the families comment:

    Our son, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, was killed by members of a Mexican drug cartel armed with weapons from this failed Justice Department gun trafficking investigation.

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/brian-terry-family-disappointed-with-obama-on-fast-and-furious/article/2500190

    Read the rest of the short statement made by this young mans family – very SAD!

  • Grace

    From the LINK above — read some of the post comments.

    This country just might have a chance if the men and women who stand strong against crime, and breaking laws VOTE to stop it.

  • Grace

    From the LINK above — read some of the post comments.

    This country just might have a chance if the men and women who stand strong against crime, and breaking laws VOTE to stop it.

  • Susan

    I’m beginning to wonder if it’s allowed to voice principled objections without being bashed. Can we allow for some impassioned and even stupid comments? None of us has 100% agreement on any side of the argument. It would sure be good if non-border state people would watch the videos, read the articles, and get a handle on the depth of the challenges in the border states. As a former Californian, former Coloradoan, and now a Texan, I think I can joke that we won’t let these non-border folk vote until they get themselves “edumacated” and if they don’t, well… Texas has a long tradition of threatening to secede and become the Republic of Texas again. We have the GDP, energy resources, and navy… not to mention the guns to enforce our borders. Though we’d probably consider letting Oklahoma and Louisiana join us. ;)

  • Susan

    I’m beginning to wonder if it’s allowed to voice principled objections without being bashed. Can we allow for some impassioned and even stupid comments? None of us has 100% agreement on any side of the argument. It would sure be good if non-border state people would watch the videos, read the articles, and get a handle on the depth of the challenges in the border states. As a former Californian, former Coloradoan, and now a Texan, I think I can joke that we won’t let these non-border folk vote until they get themselves “edumacated” and if they don’t, well… Texas has a long tradition of threatening to secede and become the Republic of Texas again. We have the GDP, energy resources, and navy… not to mention the guns to enforce our borders. Though we’d probably consider letting Oklahoma and Louisiana join us. ;)

  • Kirk

    @31

    Do you want me to go find you some stories about Hispanics doing nice things for people? Or maybe I should regale you with the story of Whitey Bulger so you can condemn all Irish people. Maybe we could talk the Gambino family so you can hate on the Italians. What about Triads? Grr, those Chinese! Oh, the Crips are pretty bad too! What about Bernie Madoff and the Jews! Oh and the holocaust must mean that all German people are bad!

    Come on, Grace. Give me a break. Criminals are people. Criminals committing crimes doesn’t damn the race that they hale from. Yes, there are Mexican gangs. They’re horrible. It doesn’t mean that Mexicans are horrible.

  • Kirk

    @31

    Do you want me to go find you some stories about Hispanics doing nice things for people? Or maybe I should regale you with the story of Whitey Bulger so you can condemn all Irish people. Maybe we could talk the Gambino family so you can hate on the Italians. What about Triads? Grr, those Chinese! Oh, the Crips are pretty bad too! What about Bernie Madoff and the Jews! Oh and the holocaust must mean that all German people are bad!

    Come on, Grace. Give me a break. Criminals are people. Criminals committing crimes doesn’t damn the race that they hale from. Yes, there are Mexican gangs. They’re horrible. It doesn’t mean that Mexicans are horrible.

  • Kirk

    @Susan,

    No, by all means, raise principled objections. What you wrote @29 is perfectly reasonable. I disagree, but you’re expressing your opinion, which is great.

    But I’m not going to stand for the racist tripe that Grace and sg are throwing around. That’s not argument worth humoring.

  • Kirk

    @Susan,

    No, by all means, raise principled objections. What you wrote @29 is perfectly reasonable. I disagree, but you’re expressing your opinion, which is great.

    But I’m not going to stand for the racist tripe that Grace and sg are throwing around. That’s not argument worth humoring.

  • Grace

    April 21, 2011

    The SACRAMENTO BEE

    California’s criminal alien population rises

    “The number of criminal aliens incarcerated in California rose to 102,795 in 2009, a 17 percent increase since 2003, federal auditors reported Thursday.”

    ANOTHER EXCERPT:

    “More than one in four of the illegal immigrants imprisoned in California are behind bars for drug offenses. Many are also repeat offenders. GAO auditors say that, based on a survey, criminal alien inmates have been arrested an average of seven different times.

    http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2011/04/californias-criminal-alien-pop.html

  • Grace

    April 21, 2011

    The SACRAMENTO BEE

    California’s criminal alien population rises

    “The number of criminal aliens incarcerated in California rose to 102,795 in 2009, a 17 percent increase since 2003, federal auditors reported Thursday.”

    ANOTHER EXCERPT:

    “More than one in four of the illegal immigrants imprisoned in California are behind bars for drug offenses. Many are also repeat offenders. GAO auditors say that, based on a survey, criminal alien inmates have been arrested an average of seven different times.

    http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2011/04/californias-criminal-alien-pop.html

  • Susan

    @ Kirk

    Grace and sg are not racist. It is not racist to tell the truth about the problems with illegal Mexican immigrants, their children, or to be frustrated by the problems. If you want a truthful and good look at what goes on, read the two articles I linked to below. I’ve seen much of what is reported in those articles in both Colorado (lived near a drug route that was based in a town almost overrun by illegals) and now Texas (a modest Dallas suburb with a high percentage of legal Hispanics). I haven’t personally seen how California is now affected because I moved away before the 1970s. I would appreciate it if you would get a handle on the facts and the depth of the problems. Please drop the bogus race card. It stinketh to high heaven.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/286354/vandalized-valley-victor-davis-hanson

    And

    http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson091811.html

  • Susan

    @ Kirk

    Grace and sg are not racist. It is not racist to tell the truth about the problems with illegal Mexican immigrants, their children, or to be frustrated by the problems. If you want a truthful and good look at what goes on, read the two articles I linked to below. I’ve seen much of what is reported in those articles in both Colorado (lived near a drug route that was based in a town almost overrun by illegals) and now Texas (a modest Dallas suburb with a high percentage of legal Hispanics). I haven’t personally seen how California is now affected because I moved away before the 1970s. I would appreciate it if you would get a handle on the facts and the depth of the problems. Please drop the bogus race card. It stinketh to high heaven.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/286354/vandalized-valley-victor-davis-hanson

    And

    http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson091811.html

  • Grace

    Kirk @ 34

    YOU WROTE: “Come on, Grace. Give me a break. Criminals are people. Criminals committing crimes doesn’t damn the race that they hale from. Yes, there are Mexican gangs. They’re horrible. It doesn’t mean that Mexicans are horrible.”

    What state do you live in?

    From the article above:

    ““The number of criminal aliens incarcerated in California rose to 102,795 in 2009, a 17 percent increase since 2003, federal auditors reported Thursday.”

    The above Kirk is from 2009 - three years ago, the stats are higher now.

  • Grace

    Kirk @ 34

    YOU WROTE: “Come on, Grace. Give me a break. Criminals are people. Criminals committing crimes doesn’t damn the race that they hale from. Yes, there are Mexican gangs. They’re horrible. It doesn’t mean that Mexicans are horrible.”

    What state do you live in?

    From the article above:

    ““The number of criminal aliens incarcerated in California rose to 102,795 in 2009, a 17 percent increase since 2003, federal auditors reported Thursday.”

    The above Kirk is from 2009 - three years ago, the stats are higher now.

  • Grace

    Kirk,

    I live in a lovely area – those who work here, for whatever reason, be it gardners, etc. do the work, but when they want to go to the bathroom, they do it on our property, urinating. Last week a guy drove up in his truck, jumped out, pulled down his pants and had a bowel movement, pulled them up, ran to his truck and took off, all within a few minutes. If you believe these are isolated incidents, you’re WRONG.

    Illegal aliens don’t have the same manners we have, or morals. No one goes to the bathroom in broad daylight on someones lawn and trees, right out in the open, but they do.

    Check out the thread I posted above started on this blog just five days ago.

  • Grace

    Kirk,

    I live in a lovely area – those who work here, for whatever reason, be it gardners, etc. do the work, but when they want to go to the bathroom, they do it on our property, urinating. Last week a guy drove up in his truck, jumped out, pulled down his pants and had a bowel movement, pulled them up, ran to his truck and took off, all within a few minutes. If you believe these are isolated incidents, you’re WRONG.

    Illegal aliens don’t have the same manners we have, or morals. No one goes to the bathroom in broad daylight on someones lawn and trees, right out in the open, but they do.

    Check out the thread I posted above started on this blog just five days ago.

  • Susan

    P.S. I forgot the large population of Russian and Eastern Europe immigrants and the high percentage of Asian immigrants. So add these groups to the legal and natal Hispanic Americans. Not to mention the African Americans and other natal American citizens. Our Police adhere to the broken window theory, we all have crime watch neighborhoods, most residents are armed, and it helps keep the crime rate down. There are areas in our metro that even the police will not go after sundown.

  • Susan

    P.S. I forgot the large population of Russian and Eastern Europe immigrants and the high percentage of Asian immigrants. So add these groups to the legal and natal Hispanic Americans. Not to mention the African Americans and other natal American citizens. Our Police adhere to the broken window theory, we all have crime watch neighborhoods, most residents are armed, and it helps keep the crime rate down. There are areas in our metro that even the police will not go after sundown.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Kirk, I’m reading Grace’s and SG’s comments, and they’re not racist at all. First of all, large portions of Hispanics are simply caucasians (who, like 99.9% of the world, have more melanin than I), so it’s not exactly racism to begin with, and second of all, the correlation of illegal immigration to welfare and crime is not exactly rocket science. Regarding the former, Milton Friedman noted that a welfare state is incompatible with porous/open borders for this very reason, and are we to expect that those who break the law by entering our nation are going to be as law abiding as the average? Seriously?

    There could be a paradox here–one that would need to be proven with some good statistics–but if one follows the logic, it would follow that illegals would be more likely than others to be involved in welfare and crime.

    For that matter, if VDH’s numbers are right, the person who is anti-Hispanic is the one who is working to make the borders more porous–thus reducing job prospects for the very men and women whose votes he hopes to get, and reducing the perceived need for governments in Latin America to get their act together to help their own people.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Kirk, I’m reading Grace’s and SG’s comments, and they’re not racist at all. First of all, large portions of Hispanics are simply caucasians (who, like 99.9% of the world, have more melanin than I), so it’s not exactly racism to begin with, and second of all, the correlation of illegal immigration to welfare and crime is not exactly rocket science. Regarding the former, Milton Friedman noted that a welfare state is incompatible with porous/open borders for this very reason, and are we to expect that those who break the law by entering our nation are going to be as law abiding as the average? Seriously?

    There could be a paradox here–one that would need to be proven with some good statistics–but if one follows the logic, it would follow that illegals would be more likely than others to be involved in welfare and crime.

    For that matter, if VDH’s numbers are right, the person who is anti-Hispanic is the one who is working to make the borders more porous–thus reducing job prospects for the very men and women whose votes he hopes to get, and reducing the perceived need for governments in Latin America to get their act together to help their own people.

  • Grace

    Putting the illegal alien problem aside for just a moment.

    I would like to see a moratorium on all immigration for a year, giving this country a chance to recuperate, from the current radical changes this administration has brought forth – I believe it’s just that serious.

  • Grace

    Putting the illegal alien problem aside for just a moment.

    I would like to see a moratorium on all immigration for a year, giving this country a chance to recuperate, from the current radical changes this administration has brought forth – I believe it’s just that serious.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    I’d add a trip in a time machine. Dreams are free – right? ;)

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    I’d add a trip in a time machine. Dreams are free – right? ;)

  • Susan

    @ bike bubba

    Astute summaries.

  • Susan

    @ bike bubba

    Astute summaries.

  • Grace

    Susan – :lol: yep they’re free.

  • Grace

    Susan – :lol: yep they’re free.

  • DonS

    Susan @ 18:

    To clarify, I think that conservatives should always espouse growth policies, rather than protectionist policies. If our government were properly functioning, there would be so many jobs that we could absorb millions of immigrants without difficulty. The fact that we cannot is the fault of government policy, not the immigrants.

    However, to further clarify, I am also a believer in the rule of law. Illegal immigrants are overwhelming the system and breaking into the line in front of legal immigrants. This is wrong, and everyone, on both sides of the issue, should be outraged about this. That is what makes me so angry about Obama. He is not looking for a comprehensive bipartisan solution to illegal immigration which will recognize that: a) because of our own failed policies, we have created a class of millions of illegal immigrants, present in this country through no fault of their own because they were brought in as children, who essentially have no country of their own, but also recognize that: b) we need to strengthen our border protections for our own security as well as to prevent this travesty from ever happening again. Instead, for him, it is all about trying to cobble together enough votes to get past the next election.

  • DonS

    Susan @ 18:

    To clarify, I think that conservatives should always espouse growth policies, rather than protectionist policies. If our government were properly functioning, there would be so many jobs that we could absorb millions of immigrants without difficulty. The fact that we cannot is the fault of government policy, not the immigrants.

    However, to further clarify, I am also a believer in the rule of law. Illegal immigrants are overwhelming the system and breaking into the line in front of legal immigrants. This is wrong, and everyone, on both sides of the issue, should be outraged about this. That is what makes me so angry about Obama. He is not looking for a comprehensive bipartisan solution to illegal immigration which will recognize that: a) because of our own failed policies, we have created a class of millions of illegal immigrants, present in this country through no fault of their own because they were brought in as children, who essentially have no country of their own, but also recognize that: b) we need to strengthen our border protections for our own security as well as to prevent this travesty from ever happening again. Instead, for him, it is all about trying to cobble together enough votes to get past the next election.

  • Grace

    DonS,

    Some of these children were brought here as 11, 12 and teens, or even younger. They knew they were coming here illegally, that would be obvious to anyone of that age, or even 5 years old. Sneaking across the border. Have you met kids of that age or a bit older who cannot speak English? – that’s because they weren’t born here, they are illegal.

    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but lots of the fast food – had, just two months ago, many illegal immigrants who could barely understand English, who couldn’t take an order without mistakes. NOW, most of them are gone, and those who are citizens, who speak fluent English have those jobs instead. ABOUT TIME!

  • Grace

    DonS,

    Some of these children were brought here as 11, 12 and teens, or even younger. They knew they were coming here illegally, that would be obvious to anyone of that age, or even 5 years old. Sneaking across the border. Have you met kids of that age or a bit older who cannot speak English? – that’s because they weren’t born here, they are illegal.

    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but lots of the fast food – had, just two months ago, many illegal immigrants who could barely understand English, who couldn’t take an order without mistakes. NOW, most of them are gone, and those who are citizens, who speak fluent English have those jobs instead. ABOUT TIME!

  • SKPeterson

    Susan – I’m not laughing. Neither am I panicking. As I have stated, I believe immigration is a net positive. I also believe most of the welfare state programs should be eliminated. If you want to go with dueling talking heads we can go that route. I’m aware of Hanson’s positions; I believe he’s generally wrong. I’ve been finding him to be wrong a lot over the last few years – he’s becoming slightly unhinged.

  • SKPeterson

    Susan – I’m not laughing. Neither am I panicking. As I have stated, I believe immigration is a net positive. I also believe most of the welfare state programs should be eliminated. If you want to go with dueling talking heads we can go that route. I’m aware of Hanson’s positions; I believe he’s generally wrong. I’ve been finding him to be wrong a lot over the last few years – he’s becoming slightly unhinged.

  • Grace

    There are so many being laid off in our markets. Just yesterday we found out 11 were laid off in one of the busiest super markets. These people were hard working, some had just received promotions. Lack of business, it’s just that simple….. this food. People are obviously eating cheaper cuts of meat, or making meals that are less expensive.

    The problem will never be solved by letting those who are illegal stay here – they need to return to their country of origin, taking their children as well, and wait their turn. That’s a problem for many illegals, they don’t want to take their turn, they want SOMEONE ELSES.

    LYING, CHEATING, and BREAKING LAWS should not be tolerated by the U.S. We don’t owe illegals the right to cut to the the font line, and then making it legal.

  • Grace

    There are so many being laid off in our markets. Just yesterday we found out 11 were laid off in one of the busiest super markets. These people were hard working, some had just received promotions. Lack of business, it’s just that simple….. this food. People are obviously eating cheaper cuts of meat, or making meals that are less expensive.

    The problem will never be solved by letting those who are illegal stay here – they need to return to their country of origin, taking their children as well, and wait their turn. That’s a problem for many illegals, they don’t want to take their turn, they want SOMEONE ELSES.

    LYING, CHEATING, and BREAKING LAWS should not be tolerated by the U.S. We don’t owe illegals the right to cut to the the font line, and then making it legal.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Didn’t, at one point, everyone who built this country leave their home countries for a better life?

    A better life here doesn’t just magically happen. The native Americans weren’t living a “better” life than the Puritans who certainly didn’t come here to live a life anything like the natives here were living.

    Or are you suggesting that the Puritans should never have come here, and instead tried to improve England.

    The Puritans did improve England.

    Anyway, if no Anglos had come, perhaps the Spanish and Portuguese would have come and built the same societies here as they did in the rest of Latin America. Maybe some think that is better than what the Puritans built here. I don’t.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Didn’t, at one point, everyone who built this country leave their home countries for a better life?

    A better life here doesn’t just magically happen. The native Americans weren’t living a “better” life than the Puritans who certainly didn’t come here to live a life anything like the natives here were living.

    Or are you suggesting that the Puritans should never have come here, and instead tried to improve England.

    The Puritans did improve England.

    Anyway, if no Anglos had come, perhaps the Spanish and Portuguese would have come and built the same societies here as they did in the rest of Latin America. Maybe some think that is better than what the Puritans built here. I don’t.

  • Grace

    SKPeterson

    What do you suggest if all the programs are cut, and illegals cannot recieve education, welfare, food, health care, etc? Do you think they will come to the communities they believe they can steal from, rob, because they have what the illegals want? Do you think this is all that simple?

  • Grace

    SKPeterson

    What do you suggest if all the programs are cut, and illegals cannot recieve education, welfare, food, health care, etc? Do you think they will come to the communities they believe they can steal from, rob, because they have what the illegals want? Do you think this is all that simple?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So far none of our immigration enthusiasts seem to give a care about things like rule of law or the rights of citizens to self government.

    That is far worse for us than some illegals taking jobs. When we lose our actual democratic values and the confidence to defend them just because we are greedy to exploit some folks we can take advantage of now without a care for what damage that does in the longer term. I have children and I care what kind of country they will inherit. Illegal immigrants and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren have a very poor track record, with exactly no evidence suggesting any improvement in their performance. When you try something and it doesn’t work, you need to face it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So far none of our immigration enthusiasts seem to give a care about things like rule of law or the rights of citizens to self government.

    That is far worse for us than some illegals taking jobs. When we lose our actual democratic values and the confidence to defend them just because we are greedy to exploit some folks we can take advantage of now without a care for what damage that does in the longer term. I have children and I care what kind of country they will inherit. Illegal immigrants and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren have a very poor track record, with exactly no evidence suggesting any improvement in their performance. When you try something and it doesn’t work, you need to face it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    As I have stated, I believe immigration is a net positive.

    Yeah, so does Singapore. Of course, they have the sense to only let in the best. I like that kind of immigration, too. That isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about giving citizenship to criminals because they got away with their crime! By that logic, a man who rapes a woman would become her heir!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    As I have stated, I believe immigration is a net positive.

    Yeah, so does Singapore. Of course, they have the sense to only let in the best. I like that kind of immigration, too. That isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about giving citizenship to criminals because they got away with their crime! By that logic, a man who rapes a woman would become her heir!

  • Grace

    SG @ 50

    YOU COMMENTED: “Anyway, if no Anglos had come, perhaps the Spanish and Portuguese would have come and built the same societies here as they did in the rest of Latin America. Maybe some think that is better than what the Puritans built here. I don’t.”

    I don’t know if you’ve traveled much below the southern border – I can assure you, that if they had taken the border states before our ancestors arrived, it wouldn’t look much different then it does today below the border.

    OBVIOUS: how they can grow poppies (heroin) marijuana, coca plants (cocaine) but they just can’t bring themselves to grow plants that would produce food for their tables. That would deprive them of all the money they make on drugs.

    No one is fooled – it’s all a SHAM!

  • Grace

    SG @ 50

    YOU COMMENTED: “Anyway, if no Anglos had come, perhaps the Spanish and Portuguese would have come and built the same societies here as they did in the rest of Latin America. Maybe some think that is better than what the Puritans built here. I don’t.”

    I don’t know if you’ve traveled much below the southern border – I can assure you, that if they had taken the border states before our ancestors arrived, it wouldn’t look much different then it does today below the border.

    OBVIOUS: how they can grow poppies (heroin) marijuana, coca plants (cocaine) but they just can’t bring themselves to grow plants that would produce food for their tables. That would deprive them of all the money they make on drugs.

    No one is fooled – it’s all a SHAM!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t care if immigrants can’t speak English or have their own customs etc. I object when they break our laws and don’t support themselves or their families and neither do their children, grandchildren, etc. We don’t need a growing underclass that can’t move up because of chronic low performance generation after generation. That is what we have with illegal immigration.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t care if immigrants can’t speak English or have their own customs etc. I object when they break our laws and don’t support themselves or their families and neither do their children, grandchildren, etc. We don’t need a growing underclass that can’t move up because of chronic low performance generation after generation. That is what we have with illegal immigration.

  • Grace

    My cousin and her husband lived there for 5 years (he was VP of a corporation, traveled all over the entire Asian area) – I don’t know about today, but then it was illegal to drop your candy wrapper or anything else on the streets of Singapore, .. if you did you were arrested. They put up with no nonsense.

  • Grace

    My cousin and her husband lived there for 5 years (he was VP of a corporation, traveled all over the entire Asian area) – I don’t know about today, but then it was illegal to drop your candy wrapper or anything else on the streets of Singapore, .. if you did you were arrested. They put up with no nonsense.

  • SKPeterson

    Grace – Are you suggesting that the provision of social welfare services are the only thing deterring illegal.aliens from forming up as armed gangs of brigands roaming the streets?

  • SKPeterson

    Grace – Are you suggesting that the provision of social welfare services are the only thing deterring illegal.aliens from forming up as armed gangs of brigands roaming the streets?

  • BW

    Singapore? Really? America needs to take cues from the nation that abolished trial by jury?

  • BW

    Singapore? Really? America needs to take cues from the nation that abolished trial by jury?

  • kerner

    Bike, you said:

    ” Regarding the former, Milton Friedman noted that a welfare state is incompatible with porous/open borders for this very reason…”

    Right, but you are taking that true statement and converting it to a false one by going in the wrong direction. The problem is not the immigrants. The problem is the welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state and the presence of immigrants will not be the problem it is now.

    I hear a lot from California residents about how illegals have ruined California (including the material from Victor Davis Hansen to which we have been directed). But all of that complaining ignores the fact that California is, from the perspective of anyone who loves liberty and the free market, a statist, socialist hell hole. While other states, such as Indiana, my own Wisconsin, and even New Jersey are doing what they can to shrink government interference with personal and economic liberty, California and Illinois and a few others are literally doing everything wrong.

    Most of VDH’s arguments in the written articles have to do with conditions in the central valley of California. Basically, he claims that there is a lot of crime there, but little law enforcement, and the law enforcement that does exist is directed against taxpaying citizen types while lawless types who don’t have any driver’s licenses or insurance are pretty much ignored. But this is not due to the presence of illegal immigrants in California (although it may be a contributing and/or agrivating factor). California’s bedrock problem is that it has adopted as a philosophy a left-wing Progressivism that is toxic to any society. I mean, given California’s left wing policies of high taxation and over-regulation of that are driving out productive citizens at a record pace, is it any wonder that the the shrinking tax revenue stream can’t keep up with the demands of the unproductive?

    VDH pointed out in Susan’s video that farmers in the Central valley say that if they don’t have immigrant labor, their crops won’t be harvested. VDH responded that, while unemployment accross the nation was (at that time) 5.1%, it was almost twice that in the Central Valley. So the people were there to harvest the crops, but VDH felt they just didn’t have sufficient incentive to do farm work.

    All of which is true as far as it goes. But the problem is not immigration nearly so much as it is that California tolerates all of the gang-banging, drug dealing thieves that inhabit the Central Valley, and allow them to suck up tax payer dollars instead of cutting them off.

    And this has nothing to do with the riff-raff’s point of origin. SKPeterson pointed out @9 what our home grown unproductive element has done for Detroit.

    I pointed this to Susan in a different thread that “low skilled” Americans could easily acquire job skills by simply finishing high school or getting some vocational training, and she scoffed at me and said that I was ignoring the fact that these low skilled “groups” couldn’t be expected to get any job skills because of their “sociological problems”. When I pointed out that the sociological problems that prevent people from going to school are the same ones that prevent them from coming to work reliably, I got scoffed at again and told I want to put people in the trash.

    VDH admitted in the video that an 18 year old from Oxaca (a poor province in Mexico) is one of the hardest workers in the world. Then he said that we need fewer of them. I’ll make a deal with VDH and Susan. In Wisconsin, we have a number of areas (of all ethnicities) that are largely populated with Americans with “sociological problems”. I propose we trade. We’ll send Susan and VDH 100,000 Native born Americans with sociological problems, each. And they can each send Wisconsin 100,000 hard working illegals from Oxaca. We’ll see whose state improves.

    The problem in California is the that it is an over-taxed, over-regulated, welfare state. Remove that factor, and the presence of immigrants will be much less of a problem, if any at all. And conservatives need to stop focusing on the wrong thing.

  • kerner

    Bike, you said:

    ” Regarding the former, Milton Friedman noted that a welfare state is incompatible with porous/open borders for this very reason…”

    Right, but you are taking that true statement and converting it to a false one by going in the wrong direction. The problem is not the immigrants. The problem is the welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state and the presence of immigrants will not be the problem it is now.

    I hear a lot from California residents about how illegals have ruined California (including the material from Victor Davis Hansen to which we have been directed). But all of that complaining ignores the fact that California is, from the perspective of anyone who loves liberty and the free market, a statist, socialist hell hole. While other states, such as Indiana, my own Wisconsin, and even New Jersey are doing what they can to shrink government interference with personal and economic liberty, California and Illinois and a few others are literally doing everything wrong.

    Most of VDH’s arguments in the written articles have to do with conditions in the central valley of California. Basically, he claims that there is a lot of crime there, but little law enforcement, and the law enforcement that does exist is directed against taxpaying citizen types while lawless types who don’t have any driver’s licenses or insurance are pretty much ignored. But this is not due to the presence of illegal immigrants in California (although it may be a contributing and/or agrivating factor). California’s bedrock problem is that it has adopted as a philosophy a left-wing Progressivism that is toxic to any society. I mean, given California’s left wing policies of high taxation and over-regulation of that are driving out productive citizens at a record pace, is it any wonder that the the shrinking tax revenue stream can’t keep up with the demands of the unproductive?

    VDH pointed out in Susan’s video that farmers in the Central valley say that if they don’t have immigrant labor, their crops won’t be harvested. VDH responded that, while unemployment accross the nation was (at that time) 5.1%, it was almost twice that in the Central Valley. So the people were there to harvest the crops, but VDH felt they just didn’t have sufficient incentive to do farm work.

    All of which is true as far as it goes. But the problem is not immigration nearly so much as it is that California tolerates all of the gang-banging, drug dealing thieves that inhabit the Central Valley, and allow them to suck up tax payer dollars instead of cutting them off.

    And this has nothing to do with the riff-raff’s point of origin. SKPeterson pointed out @9 what our home grown unproductive element has done for Detroit.

    I pointed this to Susan in a different thread that “low skilled” Americans could easily acquire job skills by simply finishing high school or getting some vocational training, and she scoffed at me and said that I was ignoring the fact that these low skilled “groups” couldn’t be expected to get any job skills because of their “sociological problems”. When I pointed out that the sociological problems that prevent people from going to school are the same ones that prevent them from coming to work reliably, I got scoffed at again and told I want to put people in the trash.

    VDH admitted in the video that an 18 year old from Oxaca (a poor province in Mexico) is one of the hardest workers in the world. Then he said that we need fewer of them. I’ll make a deal with VDH and Susan. In Wisconsin, we have a number of areas (of all ethnicities) that are largely populated with Americans with “sociological problems”. I propose we trade. We’ll send Susan and VDH 100,000 Native born Americans with sociological problems, each. And they can each send Wisconsin 100,000 hard working illegals from Oxaca. We’ll see whose state improves.

    The problem in California is the that it is an over-taxed, over-regulated, welfare state. Remove that factor, and the presence of immigrants will be much less of a problem, if any at all. And conservatives need to stop focusing on the wrong thing.

  • BW

    Kerner is on to something. Isn’t illegal immigration to our nation the symptom of a greater problem or problems? If it is made more difficult to sponge off the system, won’t this discourage the types that only want to mooch?

  • BW

    Kerner is on to something. Isn’t illegal immigration to our nation the symptom of a greater problem or problems? If it is made more difficult to sponge off the system, won’t this discourage the types that only want to mooch?

  • Grace

    SKP @ 57

    YOU WROTE: “Grace – Are you suggesting that the provision of social welfare services are the only thing deterring illegal.aliens from forming up as armed gangs of brigands roaming the streets?”

    That isn’t what I posted nor did I suggest it HOWEVER, crime has increased. There are many gangs in L.A. County about 500 –

    You have no idea, along with many others, who do not know the problems which illegal immigration has caused.

  • Grace

    SKP @ 57

    YOU WROTE: “Grace – Are you suggesting that the provision of social welfare services are the only thing deterring illegal.aliens from forming up as armed gangs of brigands roaming the streets?”

    That isn’t what I posted nor did I suggest it HOWEVER, crime has increased. There are many gangs in L.A. County about 500 –

    You have no idea, along with many others, who do not know the problems which illegal immigration has caused.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    You wrote: “The problem is the welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state and the presence of immigrants will not be the problem it is now.”

    WRONG – crime is up, it will go even higher – drugs are a huge problem here, that will just get worse. What do you think druggies do when they don’t have money to buy drugs? The steal and rob, and often times harm those they steal from.

    You don’t live here, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Many of these people don’t give a hoot about working, they support themselves in other ways.

  • Grace

    Kerner

    You wrote: “The problem is the welfare state. Get rid of the welfare state and the presence of immigrants will not be the problem it is now.”

    WRONG – crime is up, it will go even higher – drugs are a huge problem here, that will just get worse. What do you think druggies do when they don’t have money to buy drugs? The steal and rob, and often times harm those they steal from.

    You don’t live here, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Many of these people don’t give a hoot about working, they support themselves in other ways.

  • BW

    Grace @ 62,

    You don’t think getting rid of the welfare state will at least help the situation with drugs and gangs and illegal immigrants?

  • BW

    Grace @ 62,

    You don’t think getting rid of the welfare state will at least help the situation with drugs and gangs and illegal immigrants?

  • Grace

    Kerner

    YOU POSTED: “All of which is true as far as it goes. But the problem is not immigration nearly so much as it is that California tolerates all of the gang-banging, drug dealing thieves that inhabit the Central Valley, and allow them to suck up tax payer dollars instead of cutting them off. “

    You haven’t a clue – You dont live here, but yet you think you’re an expert on this subject. It’s unbelievable when I read what you write, and especially because you have a law degree – yet you don’t have the facts. Is that the way you argue a case? – without facts?

  • Grace

    Kerner

    YOU POSTED: “All of which is true as far as it goes. But the problem is not immigration nearly so much as it is that California tolerates all of the gang-banging, drug dealing thieves that inhabit the Central Valley, and allow them to suck up tax payer dollars instead of cutting them off. “

    You haven’t a clue – You dont live here, but yet you think you’re an expert on this subject. It’s unbelievable when I read what you write, and especially because you have a law degree – yet you don’t have the facts. Is that the way you argue a case? – without facts?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Criminals are people. Criminals committing crimes doesn’t damn the race that they hale from. Yes, there are Mexican gangs. They’re horrible. It doesn’t mean that Mexicans are horrible.

    Consider the term, incidence rate. Illegals have a crime rate higher than the average, and legal immigrants have a crime rate lower than the average. Legal immigrants are screened and their backgrounds are checked. We don’t allow known criminals to come in. While it is true that there are more than zero criminals from any kind of group you would care to define, there are disproportionally far far more in certain groups. Ignoring that pattern is just stupid. Rather, our policies should be informed by the data.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Criminals are people. Criminals committing crimes doesn’t damn the race that they hale from. Yes, there are Mexican gangs. They’re horrible. It doesn’t mean that Mexicans are horrible.

    Consider the term, incidence rate. Illegals have a crime rate higher than the average, and legal immigrants have a crime rate lower than the average. Legal immigrants are screened and their backgrounds are checked. We don’t allow known criminals to come in. While it is true that there are more than zero criminals from any kind of group you would care to define, there are disproportionally far far more in certain groups. Ignoring that pattern is just stupid. Rather, our policies should be informed by the data.

  • Grace

    BW @ 63

    YOU WROTE: “You don’t think getting rid of the welfare state will at least help the situation with drugs and gangs and illegal immigrants?’

    NO – crime will increase, in every way. Illegals need to return to their country of origin.

    Let me make another point. IF those from below the border, who are legal, had, or who would have stepped up to the plate, and helped to curb this influx of illegal aliens, ( including drugs ) it would not have been the problem it is right this minute. Those from below the border stick together – LEGAL or ILLEGAL – They BOND to one another, families, friends!

  • Grace

    BW @ 63

    YOU WROTE: “You don’t think getting rid of the welfare state will at least help the situation with drugs and gangs and illegal immigrants?’

    NO – crime will increase, in every way. Illegals need to return to their country of origin.

    Let me make another point. IF those from below the border, who are legal, had, or who would have stepped up to the plate, and helped to curb this influx of illegal aliens, ( including drugs ) it would not have been the problem it is right this minute. Those from below the border stick together – LEGAL or ILLEGAL – They BOND to one another, families, friends!

  • BW

    sg,

    Part of the catch in not departing the young illegal immigrants is that they must have a clean record though.

  • BW

    sg,

    Part of the catch in not departing the young illegal immigrants is that they must have a clean record though.

  • BW

    The more I read about this, the more I see, like DonS mentioned, is that it looks like Obama really did solely want to play politics. Marc Rubio was working to push a very similar piece of legislation through Congress. Once again, Obama distracts the conservatives while claiming that Congress wasn’t acting, when Rubio was in fact trying to do something about it.

  • BW

    The more I read about this, the more I see, like DonS mentioned, is that it looks like Obama really did solely want to play politics. Marc Rubio was working to push a very similar piece of legislation through Congress. Once again, Obama distracts the conservatives while claiming that Congress wasn’t acting, when Rubio was in fact trying to do something about it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner is on to something. Isn’t illegal immigration to our nation the symptom of a greater problem or problems? If it is made more difficult to sponge off the system, won’t this discourage the types that only want to mooch?

    This is problematic because as self governing people, we should be able to have whatever social safety net we are willing and able to pay for to meet the needs that we freely choose to meet. This is a democratic principle that citizens get to have the laws and government services that they vote on themselves. By this same principle, we have the right to exclude any and all foreigners we choose to exclude for any reason or even no reason. They are not citizens and are outside the equation until the citizens choose to invite them to come in. Enforcing the laws enacted by the properly elected representatives of the people is also a democratic principle that free people live under rule of law, not the whim of those who think they know what is better for us. And since these illegals are such wonderful folks, we will see their countries derive grand benefits from their continued residence there.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Kerner is on to something. Isn’t illegal immigration to our nation the symptom of a greater problem or problems? If it is made more difficult to sponge off the system, won’t this discourage the types that only want to mooch?

    This is problematic because as self governing people, we should be able to have whatever social safety net we are willing and able to pay for to meet the needs that we freely choose to meet. This is a democratic principle that citizens get to have the laws and government services that they vote on themselves. By this same principle, we have the right to exclude any and all foreigners we choose to exclude for any reason or even no reason. They are not citizens and are outside the equation until the citizens choose to invite them to come in. Enforcing the laws enacted by the properly elected representatives of the people is also a democratic principle that free people live under rule of law, not the whim of those who think they know what is better for us. And since these illegals are such wonderful folks, we will see their countries derive grand benefits from their continued residence there.

  • kerner

    Grace @62:

    ” drugs are a huge problem here, that will just get worse. What do you think druggies do when they don’t have money to buy drugs? The steal and rob, and often times harm those they steal from. ”

    So…you’re saying that the welfare state is a good thing because it give drug users a source of money to buy drugs with, and we should not cut the drug users’ welfare off because if we take away their welfare they will then turn ot violent crime even more than than they already have?

    And I have to live in California to understand this?

    That is an interesting social policy.

  • kerner

    Grace @62:

    ” drugs are a huge problem here, that will just get worse. What do you think druggies do when they don’t have money to buy drugs? The steal and rob, and often times harm those they steal from. ”

    So…you’re saying that the welfare state is a good thing because it give drug users a source of money to buy drugs with, and we should not cut the drug users’ welfare off because if we take away their welfare they will then turn ot violent crime even more than than they already have?

    And I have to live in California to understand this?

    That is an interesting social policy.

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    The welfare money can be cut, but that will not send illegals back to their country or origin.

    And YES, it looks like you would need to live here to see it. You’re hip shooting.

    Twisting my words there Attorney Kerner – - – - “So…you’re saying that the welfare state is a good thing”

    You would have a difficult time, if I were on the stand and you decided to use that worthless questioning! You’d be one embarrassed dude.

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    The welfare money can be cut, but that will not send illegals back to their country or origin.

    And YES, it looks like you would need to live here to see it. You’re hip shooting.

    Twisting my words there Attorney Kerner – - – - “So…you’re saying that the welfare state is a good thing”

    You would have a difficult time, if I were on the stand and you decided to use that worthless questioning! You’d be one embarrassed dude.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @67

    Different issues here.

    1) Content of the policy and

    2) which branch of government should make it and

    3) which branch shall enforce it.

    The executive branch is supposed to be enforcing the law, not making it. The Congress can pass an identical policy and the executive branch will have to enforce it. That is rule of law. If some legislator can get the exact same policy passed in Congress, then it stands as the will of the people. So far, the people’s representatives have declined to do so. Therefore, the executive branch must continue to enforce the laws as written.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @67

    Different issues here.

    1) Content of the policy and

    2) which branch of government should make it and

    3) which branch shall enforce it.

    The executive branch is supposed to be enforcing the law, not making it. The Congress can pass an identical policy and the executive branch will have to enforce it. That is rule of law. If some legislator can get the exact same policy passed in Congress, then it stands as the will of the people. So far, the people’s representatives have declined to do so. Therefore, the executive branch must continue to enforce the laws as written.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    And conservatives need to stop focusing on the wrong thing.

    Conservatives are focused on rule of law, which is the right thing. Our constitution provides for a legislature to enact laws and an executive to enforce them. We want rule of law. After we get that, then we can tweak the immigration policy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    And conservatives need to stop focusing on the wrong thing.

    Conservatives are focused on rule of law, which is the right thing. Our constitution provides for a legislature to enact laws and an executive to enforce them. We want rule of law. After we get that, then we can tweak the immigration policy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Next time, take that kind of talk and shove it. Your generalization, aside from being patently untrue and absurd, is offensive.

    He he he he

    Ain’t free speech grand. Gee if those dang Anglos hadn’t come here, we probably would have the right to free speech coming from that Constitution they so carefully crafted to protect folks making all kinds of offensive statements. Hey, I think my statements are accurate, but please, I beg you, give me some data to disprove them. I promise to receive them in a proper spirit.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Next time, take that kind of talk and shove it. Your generalization, aside from being patently untrue and absurd, is offensive.

    He he he he

    Ain’t free speech grand. Gee if those dang Anglos hadn’t come here, we probably would have the right to free speech coming from that Constitution they so carefully crafted to protect folks making all kinds of offensive statements. Hey, I think my statements are accurate, but please, I beg you, give me some data to disprove them. I promise to receive them in a proper spirit.

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    Another thing you are most likely anaware of: Many top hospitals here, absorb medical costs, including delievering babies – when illegal aliens cannot pay. Who do you think those costs fall on?

    Health costs are astronomical -

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    Another thing you are most likely anaware of: Many top hospitals here, absorb medical costs, including delievering babies – when illegal aliens cannot pay. Who do you think those costs fall on?

    Health costs are astronomical -

  • kerner

    sg @73:

    Conservatives are, in fact, focused on the rule of law. But this is precisely why it is critical to debate what the law should be.

    “We want rule of law. After we get that, then we can tweak the immigration policy.”

    what do you mean by that, exactly? After we get what, in practical terms?

  • kerner

    sg @73:

    Conservatives are, in fact, focused on the rule of law. But this is precisely why it is critical to debate what the law should be.

    “We want rule of law. After we get that, then we can tweak the immigration policy.”

    what do you mean by that, exactly? After we get what, in practical terms?

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Nice job mangling our exchange and misinterpreting VHD’s message and forgetting the fallen nature of men. Heh.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Nice job mangling our exchange and misinterpreting VHD’s message and forgetting the fallen nature of men. Heh.

  • Susan

    @ BW

    The elimination of access to entitlement programs (especially schools) would cause attrition among illegals currently here and make the US less attractive to new illegals. And, I think Grace is correct about it not helping much with the illegal drug trade, but it might make things more difficult for them by helping reduce the illegal populations that they have used to hide among and used to work for them under duress.

  • Susan

    @ BW

    The elimination of access to entitlement programs (especially schools) would cause attrition among illegals currently here and make the US less attractive to new illegals. And, I think Grace is correct about it not helping much with the illegal drug trade, but it might make things more difficult for them by helping reduce the illegal populations that they have used to hide among and used to work for them under duress.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    Based on kerner’s comments, I’m not convinced he has a law degree. At this point in the game, I’m thinking we should flatten the field by de-licensing attorneys and let paralegals and anyone else who chooses to compete with them do so. How’s that for open competition so the markets are free to work. Kinda like lets have open borders ‘cuz it’s so good for everyone. lol.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    Based on kerner’s comments, I’m not convinced he has a law degree. At this point in the game, I’m thinking we should flatten the field by de-licensing attorneys and let paralegals and anyone else who chooses to compete with them do so. How’s that for open competition so the markets are free to work. Kinda like lets have open borders ‘cuz it’s so good for everyone. lol.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 79
    :lol: That’s a great one – I can just see all the attorney’s standing in line trying to get illegal alien’s back home tout de suite, briefcases in tow, ties pulled, puffed up red faces with a bottle of water in hand. YAH HOO, the longest line since the Super Bowl.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 79
    :lol: That’s a great one – I can just see all the attorney’s standing in line trying to get illegal alien’s back home tout de suite, briefcases in tow, ties pulled, puffed up red faces with a bottle of water in hand. YAH HOO, the longest line since the Super Bowl.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Obesity in Mexico
    One taco too many

    In the obesity stakes, the United States takes the cake. But Mexico comes a close second, and has a higher proportion of merely “overweight” citizens than do the gringos. Seven out of ten Mexican adults are overweight, and three out of ten are obese, according to a recent study by the OECD. In Chile and Brazil, the two other Latin American countries in the 40-country survey, just 22% and 14% fell into the chubbiest category.

    Moreover, the problem is expanding. In 2000 some 20% of Mexican primary-school girls were overweight; by 2006 27% were. Diabetes is the top cause of hospital admission after childbirth, and the second-biggest cause of death.

    http://www.economist.com/node/17314636

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Obesity in Mexico
    One taco too many

    In the obesity stakes, the United States takes the cake. But Mexico comes a close second, and has a higher proportion of merely “overweight” citizens than do the gringos. Seven out of ten Mexican adults are overweight, and three out of ten are obese, according to a recent study by the OECD. In Chile and Brazil, the two other Latin American countries in the 40-country survey, just 22% and 14% fell into the chubbiest category.

    Moreover, the problem is expanding. In 2000 some 20% of Mexican primary-school girls were overweight; by 2006 27% were. Diabetes is the top cause of hospital admission after childbirth, and the second-biggest cause of death.

    http://www.economist.com/node/17314636

  • Grace

    SG @ 81

    YOU POSTED from http://www.economist.com/node/17314636

    : “Moreover, the problem is expanding. In 2000 some 20% of Mexican primary-school girls were overweight; by 2006 27% were. Diabetes is the top cause of hospital admission after childbirth, and the second-biggest cause of death.”

    And we pay for their health care here in the U.S. regarding “diabetes” – I had no idea of the immense health problem OR, that it was the 2nd biggest cause of death.

    I believe most people have noticed that they are very large in size.

    Very interesting SG.

  • Grace

    SG @ 81

    YOU POSTED from http://www.economist.com/node/17314636

    : “Moreover, the problem is expanding. In 2000 some 20% of Mexican primary-school girls were overweight; by 2006 27% were. Diabetes is the top cause of hospital admission after childbirth, and the second-biggest cause of death.”

    And we pay for their health care here in the U.S. regarding “diabetes” – I had no idea of the immense health problem OR, that it was the 2nd biggest cause of death.

    I believe most people have noticed that they are very large in size.

    Very interesting SG.

  • Grace

    Bacteria Gotten in the Hospital Is Killing Thousands Annually
    By Deidre Shelden

    An excerpt from article:

    While crowded emergency rooms cater to illegal aliens (and political correctness), many of them harbor other diseases, as well – diseases that American medicine vanquished LONG AGO, such as

    drug-resistant TB,
    malaria,
    leprosy,
    PLAGUE,
    polio, and
    Chagas disease, a dreadful parasitic infection.

    Estimates indicate that the current illegal alien population in the USA 12+ million. Recently reported in the American Journal of Physicians and Surgeons, Illegal aliens’ assault on medicine is alarming.”

    Another excerpt

    ” Deidre Shelden has college background in applied linguistics and translation cross-culturally, receiving a graduate degree in intercultural studies at the Fuller School of World Mission in Pasadena, CA. She also did translation work for two decades overseas, living in Indonesia and the Philippines. Today, she researches and writes on a variety of social and political topics”

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Bacteria-Gotten-in-the-Hospital-Is-Killing-Thousands-Annually&id=6527878

    I have known about most of the disease mentioned above. Most people don’t want to believe it.

    MRSA, is another dreadful problem found in hospitals today.

  • Grace

    Bacteria Gotten in the Hospital Is Killing Thousands Annually
    By Deidre Shelden

    An excerpt from article:

    While crowded emergency rooms cater to illegal aliens (and political correctness), many of them harbor other diseases, as well – diseases that American medicine vanquished LONG AGO, such as

    drug-resistant TB,
    malaria,
    leprosy,
    PLAGUE,
    polio, and
    Chagas disease, a dreadful parasitic infection.

    Estimates indicate that the current illegal alien population in the USA 12+ million. Recently reported in the American Journal of Physicians and Surgeons, Illegal aliens’ assault on medicine is alarming.”

    Another excerpt

    ” Deidre Shelden has college background in applied linguistics and translation cross-culturally, receiving a graduate degree in intercultural studies at the Fuller School of World Mission in Pasadena, CA. She also did translation work for two decades overseas, living in Indonesia and the Philippines. Today, she researches and writes on a variety of social and political topics”

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Bacteria-Gotten-in-the-Hospital-Is-Killing-Thousands-Annually&id=6527878

    I have known about most of the disease mentioned above. Most people don’t want to believe it.

    MRSA, is another dreadful problem found in hospitals today.

  • Grace

    To Better Control Superbugs or Antibiotic Resistant Organisms in Canada

    SHORT VIDEO – not to be missed

    I add this: This also is applies to the United States, this was reported in 2009, three years ago.

  • Grace

    To Better Control Superbugs or Antibiotic Resistant Organisms in Canada

    SHORT VIDEO – not to be missed

    I add this: This also is applies to the United States, this was reported in 2009, three years ago.

  • Grace

    This from the same link as article by Deidre Shelden

    Health threat in hospitals

    Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcu Aureus (MRSA) is a bacterial infection that is highly resistant to some antibiotics. Its prevalence is largely in medical facilities and is especially harmful to those who are sick. Generally overlooked alerts from the Centers of Disease Control (CDC), National Institutes of Health, CNN, and other sources all confirm the worst:

    As of this year, 94,000+ life threatening MRSA cases kill 18,650 people annually reports the CDC. This is a shocking leap from thirteen years ago when, in 1997, the number of MRSA fatalities was only FOUR!

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Bacteria-Gotten-in-the-Hospital-Is-Killing-Thousands-Annually&id=6527878

  • Grace

    This from the same link as article by Deidre Shelden

    Health threat in hospitals

    Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcu Aureus (MRSA) is a bacterial infection that is highly resistant to some antibiotics. Its prevalence is largely in medical facilities and is especially harmful to those who are sick. Generally overlooked alerts from the Centers of Disease Control (CDC), National Institutes of Health, CNN, and other sources all confirm the worst:

    As of this year, 94,000+ life threatening MRSA cases kill 18,650 people annually reports the CDC. This is a shocking leap from thirteen years ago when, in 1997, the number of MRSA fatalities was only FOUR!

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Bacteria-Gotten-in-the-Hospital-Is-Killing-Thousands-Annually&id=6527878

  • Grace

    SPECIAL THANKS to those who made this information possible.

    To those who complain LOUDLY regarding immigration today to the United States, and make statements that all who came here just sailed into New York harbor and journeyed to their destination – READ the REAL ACCOUNT of coming to AMERICA, and the restrictions the United States made on NEW IMMIGRANTS!

    One of my parents sailed with sister and husband, their child and expecting another, to the United States, and landed at Ellis Island. My grandfather had provided the funds for my parent to travel by ship. It was a surprise when my parent walked up the steps with sister and brother in-law, never knowing that the father had provided the funds or the approval of such a gift and journey to this country.

    I’m proud of my parent, proud that my parent accepted the laws of this land, and made their way through difficult times LAWFULLY.

    God bless my beloved parent, who is now with the LORD, who gave me the best life, who loved the LORD first, and loved this country. When we buried my parent, it was a large funeral. When we arrived at the cemetary I sat with my elders. The American flag flew maybe 200 feet from the grave, I will never forget my thoughts, my grateful heart, my LORD and Savior – my parents –

    Ellis Island through America’s Gateway

    Processing

    “This section describes step-by-step what most new arrivals experienced on Ellis Island. The opening of Ellis Island began a new era of restriction in the history of immigration. Here, the inspectors determined each newcomer’s eligibility to land according to United States law. For the vast majority of immigrants, Ellis Island meant three to five hours of waiting for a brief medical and legal examination. For others, it meant a longer stay with additional testing or a legal hearing. For an unfortunate 2 percent, it meant exclusion and a return trip to the homeland.”
    Medical Inspection

    “The medical inspection began as soon as the immigrants ascended the stairs to the Registry Room. U.S. Public Health Service Doctors stationed at the top of the stairs watched carefully for shortness of breath or signs of heart trouble as the immigrants climbed up the steps hefting their baggage. U.S. Public Health Service doctors sometimes had only six seconds to scan each immigrant during the line inspection. If a doctor found any indication of disease, he marked the shoulder or lapel of an immigrant’s clothing with chalk: “L” for lameness, “E” for eyes, for example. Marked immigrants, some of whom had received several of these mystifying letters, were removed from the inspection line and led to special examination rooms. There a doctor would check them for the ailment indicated by the chalk mark and give them a quick overall physical. Many had to be sent to the hospital for observation and care. Patients who recovered were usually allowed to land. Others, whose ailments were incurable or disabling, were sent back to their ports of origin.”

    CONTINUED -

  • Grace

    SPECIAL THANKS to those who made this information possible.

    To those who complain LOUDLY regarding immigration today to the United States, and make statements that all who came here just sailed into New York harbor and journeyed to their destination – READ the REAL ACCOUNT of coming to AMERICA, and the restrictions the United States made on NEW IMMIGRANTS!

    One of my parents sailed with sister and husband, their child and expecting another, to the United States, and landed at Ellis Island. My grandfather had provided the funds for my parent to travel by ship. It was a surprise when my parent walked up the steps with sister and brother in-law, never knowing that the father had provided the funds or the approval of such a gift and journey to this country.

    I’m proud of my parent, proud that my parent accepted the laws of this land, and made their way through difficult times LAWFULLY.

    God bless my beloved parent, who is now with the LORD, who gave me the best life, who loved the LORD first, and loved this country. When we buried my parent, it was a large funeral. When we arrived at the cemetary I sat with my elders. The American flag flew maybe 200 feet from the grave, I will never forget my thoughts, my grateful heart, my LORD and Savior – my parents –

    Ellis Island through America’s Gateway

    Processing

    “This section describes step-by-step what most new arrivals experienced on Ellis Island. The opening of Ellis Island began a new era of restriction in the history of immigration. Here, the inspectors determined each newcomer’s eligibility to land according to United States law. For the vast majority of immigrants, Ellis Island meant three to five hours of waiting for a brief medical and legal examination. For others, it meant a longer stay with additional testing or a legal hearing. For an unfortunate 2 percent, it meant exclusion and a return trip to the homeland.”
    Medical Inspection

    “The medical inspection began as soon as the immigrants ascended the stairs to the Registry Room. U.S. Public Health Service Doctors stationed at the top of the stairs watched carefully for shortness of breath or signs of heart trouble as the immigrants climbed up the steps hefting their baggage. U.S. Public Health Service doctors sometimes had only six seconds to scan each immigrant during the line inspection. If a doctor found any indication of disease, he marked the shoulder or lapel of an immigrant’s clothing with chalk: “L” for lameness, “E” for eyes, for example. Marked immigrants, some of whom had received several of these mystifying letters, were removed from the inspection line and led to special examination rooms. There a doctor would check them for the ailment indicated by the chalk mark and give them a quick overall physical. Many had to be sent to the hospital for observation and care. Patients who recovered were usually allowed to land. Others, whose ailments were incurable or disabling, were sent back to their ports of origin.”

    CONTINUED -

  • Grace

    Women Patients:

    “Many immigrant women were frightened by the clinical routine followed on Ellis Island. For a woman who had never been touched by a man other than her husband, being examined by a male doctor could be a traumatic experience. In 1914 two women doctors were appointed to the medical staff, and prior to that, Public Health Service rules, required the presence of a matron during the examination of an immigrant woman by a male doctor.

    Trachoma: Trachoma, a highly contagious eye infection that could cause blindness, was a common disease in southeastern Europe but relatively unknown in the United States. it appeared as inflammations on the inner eyelid. Doctors checked for the disease by raising the eyelid with either their fingers, a hairpin, or a buttonhook–a painful, but quick procedure. Since trachoma is difficult to cure, sufferers were generally isolated and sent back to their ports of embarkation at the first opportunity.

    Medical inspection cards, punched daily aboard ship, were presented to the Ellis Island physicians for final examination. If the immigrant was in good health the card was stamped “passed.”

    Detention

    “During the peak years of immigration, detention on Ellis Island ran as high as 20% for all immigrants inspected. A detainee’s stay could last days or even weeks. Many were women and children who were waiting for a relative to come for them or for money to arrive. Others were waiting for a hearing in front of the board of special inquiry or for a final decision from Washington, D.C. Perhaps the most poignant of the detainees were the families waiting for a sick parent or child to be released from the Ellis Island hospital.

    Women and Children

    “Women and children were detained until their safety after they left Ellis Island was assured. A telegram, letter, or prepaid ticket from waiting relatives was usually required before the detained women and children could be sent on their way. Single women were not allowed to leave Ellis Island with a man who was not related to them. When a fiancé and his intended were reunited at Ellis Island, their marriage was often performed right on the island–then they were free to leave.

    Free to Land

    “After being inspected and receiving permission to leave the island, immigrants could make travel arrangements to their final destinations, get something to eat, and exchange their money for American dollars. Relatives and friends who came to Ellis Island for joyous reunions–often after years of separation–could escort the immigrants to their new homes. Immigrants boarded ferries to New York and New Jersey and, at last, were free to land in America.

    http://www.powayusd.com/online/usonline/worddoc/ellisislandsite.htm

  • Grace

    Women Patients:

    “Many immigrant women were frightened by the clinical routine followed on Ellis Island. For a woman who had never been touched by a man other than her husband, being examined by a male doctor could be a traumatic experience. In 1914 two women doctors were appointed to the medical staff, and prior to that, Public Health Service rules, required the presence of a matron during the examination of an immigrant woman by a male doctor.

    Trachoma: Trachoma, a highly contagious eye infection that could cause blindness, was a common disease in southeastern Europe but relatively unknown in the United States. it appeared as inflammations on the inner eyelid. Doctors checked for the disease by raising the eyelid with either their fingers, a hairpin, or a buttonhook–a painful, but quick procedure. Since trachoma is difficult to cure, sufferers were generally isolated and sent back to their ports of embarkation at the first opportunity.

    Medical inspection cards, punched daily aboard ship, were presented to the Ellis Island physicians for final examination. If the immigrant was in good health the card was stamped “passed.”

    Detention

    “During the peak years of immigration, detention on Ellis Island ran as high as 20% for all immigrants inspected. A detainee’s stay could last days or even weeks. Many were women and children who were waiting for a relative to come for them or for money to arrive. Others were waiting for a hearing in front of the board of special inquiry or for a final decision from Washington, D.C. Perhaps the most poignant of the detainees were the families waiting for a sick parent or child to be released from the Ellis Island hospital.

    Women and Children

    “Women and children were detained until their safety after they left Ellis Island was assured. A telegram, letter, or prepaid ticket from waiting relatives was usually required before the detained women and children could be sent on their way. Single women were not allowed to leave Ellis Island with a man who was not related to them. When a fiancé and his intended were reunited at Ellis Island, their marriage was often performed right on the island–then they were free to leave.

    Free to Land

    “After being inspected and receiving permission to leave the island, immigrants could make travel arrangements to their final destinations, get something to eat, and exchange their money for American dollars. Relatives and friends who came to Ellis Island for joyous reunions–often after years of separation–could escort the immigrants to their new homes. Immigrants boarded ferries to New York and New Jersey and, at last, were free to land in America.

    http://www.powayusd.com/online/usonline/worddoc/ellisislandsite.htm

  • kerner

    Susan @79: You said:
    ” At this point in the game, I’m thinking we should flatten the field by de-licensing attorneys and let paralegals and anyone else who chooses to compete with them do so. How’s that for open competition so the markets are free to work. Kinda like lets have open borders ‘cuz it’s so good for everyone. lol.”

    Too late. It has already been done. See here:
    http://www.legalzoom.com/
    And there are other places like that, and free self help clinics in every Courthouse on Wisconsin. And it HAS been good for everyone. And we lawyers have had to adopt to the new situation and compete with all this unlicensed legal service. Somehow we’ve managed to do it without crying crocodile tears for not being protected from the competition. It’s pretty funny to be threatened with something that already exists. :D

  • kerner

    Susan @79: You said:
    ” At this point in the game, I’m thinking we should flatten the field by de-licensing attorneys and let paralegals and anyone else who chooses to compete with them do so. How’s that for open competition so the markets are free to work. Kinda like lets have open borders ‘cuz it’s so good for everyone. lol.”

    Too late. It has already been done. See here:
    http://www.legalzoom.com/
    And there are other places like that, and free self help clinics in every Courthouse on Wisconsin. And it HAS been good for everyone. And we lawyers have had to adopt to the new situation and compete with all this unlicensed legal service. Somehow we’ve managed to do it without crying crocodile tears for not being protected from the competition. It’s pretty funny to be threatened with something that already exists. :D

  • kerner

    Grace @86-87:

    The health restrictions on immigration were among the first restrictions ever enacted in the United States. I’m pretty sure they began in the 1880′s, but I would have to look it up to be positive. Before that people really did just walk right in.

    But health requirements are considered by just about everyone to be a good thing, and they continue to exist in a more modern form to this day. Every alien who wants to achieve legal status in the United States has to pass a medical exam and have his/her immunizations updated.

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=eb1f3591ec04d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

    One improvement in the system is that the medical exam is no longer done by a government employee. The alien has to go to a USCIS approved physician and pay for the exam. To get such an exam in California you have to go to one of these:

    https://egov.uscis.gov/crisgwi/go?action=offices.summary&OfficeLocator.office_type=CIV&OfficeLocator.statecode=CA

    Another condition of immigration mentioned in your post was that the aliens had to prove that someone in the United States would support them. This is also still true today. Every alien entering on a family based visa is required to submit one or more Affidavits of Support, in which someone other than the alien, who is a citizen or lawful permanent resident, must establish that the sponsor(s) have the financial means to support the alien, and obligating the sponsor(s) to riemburse the government if the alien goes on public assistance.

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b70f8875d714d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

    These are prerequisites to permanent legal status in the United States, and should continue to be. While I believe that legal status should be offered to many people who are here illegally, I also believe that these conditions, plus others, should be remain as part of that process.

    If an illegal alien wants to be legal, he/she should have to pass a medical exam and be vaccinated, AND PAY FOR THE COST OF DOING THAT HIM/HERSELF. The alien should also have to prove that he/she will not be a “public charge”, by the same or similar means as this is done under present law. At the same time, the law should be changed to end welfare benefits ot anyone who is not a United States citizen. I would not cut off access to public education, because all residents pay (directly or indirectly) at least most of the taxes that support public schools.

    I am confident that if this were the case, a great many illegal aliens would find ways to get their medical exams and find ways to support themselves without welfare. Those that could not would find their welfare cut off and, deprived of that free gravy train, would go back where they came from.

    These are not the only conditions there should be, and monetary penalties for being here illegally should certainly be included.

    There will always be criminals who don’t care about legal status or moral values from any culture, not ours, nor those of their native countries. These should be deported, which is also the law today already. But since these are a subset of the entire mass of illegal aliens, which is to say a lot fewer that the whole mass of them, we can save a lot of money by concentrating on deporting the criminals who really need to go.

  • kerner

    Grace @86-87:

    The health restrictions on immigration were among the first restrictions ever enacted in the United States. I’m pretty sure they began in the 1880′s, but I would have to look it up to be positive. Before that people really did just walk right in.

    But health requirements are considered by just about everyone to be a good thing, and they continue to exist in a more modern form to this day. Every alien who wants to achieve legal status in the United States has to pass a medical exam and have his/her immunizations updated.

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=eb1f3591ec04d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

    One improvement in the system is that the medical exam is no longer done by a government employee. The alien has to go to a USCIS approved physician and pay for the exam. To get such an exam in California you have to go to one of these:

    https://egov.uscis.gov/crisgwi/go?action=offices.summary&OfficeLocator.office_type=CIV&OfficeLocator.statecode=CA

    Another condition of immigration mentioned in your post was that the aliens had to prove that someone in the United States would support them. This is also still true today. Every alien entering on a family based visa is required to submit one or more Affidavits of Support, in which someone other than the alien, who is a citizen or lawful permanent resident, must establish that the sponsor(s) have the financial means to support the alien, and obligating the sponsor(s) to riemburse the government if the alien goes on public assistance.

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b70f8875d714d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

    These are prerequisites to permanent legal status in the United States, and should continue to be. While I believe that legal status should be offered to many people who are here illegally, I also believe that these conditions, plus others, should be remain as part of that process.

    If an illegal alien wants to be legal, he/she should have to pass a medical exam and be vaccinated, AND PAY FOR THE COST OF DOING THAT HIM/HERSELF. The alien should also have to prove that he/she will not be a “public charge”, by the same or similar means as this is done under present law. At the same time, the law should be changed to end welfare benefits ot anyone who is not a United States citizen. I would not cut off access to public education, because all residents pay (directly or indirectly) at least most of the taxes that support public schools.

    I am confident that if this were the case, a great many illegal aliens would find ways to get their medical exams and find ways to support themselves without welfare. Those that could not would find their welfare cut off and, deprived of that free gravy train, would go back where they came from.

    These are not the only conditions there should be, and monetary penalties for being here illegally should certainly be included.

    There will always be criminals who don’t care about legal status or moral values from any culture, not ours, nor those of their native countries. These should be deported, which is also the law today already. But since these are a subset of the entire mass of illegal aliens, which is to say a lot fewer that the whole mass of them, we can save a lot of money by concentrating on deporting the criminals who really need to go.

  • Susan

    @ fws

    Abortion and deportation are not moral equivalents. Being a Christian doesn’t exempt us from the risks and consequences of breaking a nation’s laws. Whether we agree with the law or not, or whether we believe the law is moral or not – does not change our liability. The point is that we accept the risks and consequences of our decisions to break the law.

  • Susan

    @ fws

    Abortion and deportation are not moral equivalents. Being a Christian doesn’t exempt us from the risks and consequences of breaking a nation’s laws. Whether we agree with the law or not, or whether we believe the law is moral or not – does not change our liability. The point is that we accept the risks and consequences of our decisions to break the law.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    There is nothing new about anyone being able to represent themselves legally or fill out legal documents and submit them – another substanceless complaint. Lastly, it’s too bad you can’t tell the difference between satire and threats.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    There is nothing new about anyone being able to represent themselves legally or fill out legal documents and submit them – another substanceless complaint. Lastly, it’s too bad you can’t tell the difference between satire and threats.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Perhaps it would be good to remind you of some basics: one has to pass a state bar exam and be licensed to practice law in each state. To de-license the attorneys and allow anyone to practice law would be to flatten the field by allowing anyone to charge for legal services.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Perhaps it would be good to remind you of some basics: one has to pass a state bar exam and be licensed to practice law in each state. To de-license the attorneys and allow anyone to practice law would be to flatten the field by allowing anyone to charge for legal services.

  • kerner

    Susan:

    I knew your comments were satire. And I understand the concept of licensing. All kinds of occupations require a license, from practicing medicine to cosmetology. The purpose of the license is to assure the consumer that the license holder has studied and passed a test that established that he has a minimum amount of knowledge in that field, and also that the practitioner is subject to a code of ethics and conduct. Such licenses have been attacked, seriously, as a restriction on free market competition.This is more true for for occupations that are relatively easy to learn, like cosmetology, and less true for life and death occupations like medicine.

    Practicing law probably falls closer to medicine. But, there used to be much more restriction on what services a non-lawyer could provide. The sort of advice on how to make a will, or draft corporate documents, or pleadings in a legal action such as a divorce or probate court, which is now given by non-lawyers all over the country, is something that only a lawyer could do until recently.

    This is “competition” that used to be illegal. It has caused lawyers to make less money in a field that is already very competitive.

    The reason I responded to your satirical comment is that you have repeatedly claimed that, if I had to deal with the “unfair” and illegal competition that lower skilled workers have to deal with from immigrants, then I would sing a different tune.

    What I am trying to say is that you are wrong about that. You may disagree with my position on the benefits of a competitive economic system, but you are wrong about me only believing that because I supposedly have never experienced strong competition.

    I have been trying to explain that I do, in fact, experience competition every day, because my field is very competitive, and because law schools are graduating more lawyers every year, and because a lot of services that used to be illegal to provide if you weren’t a lawyer can now be provided by non-lawyers as long as they give a disclaimer.

    Despite all this competition, some of which used to be illegal, I make a living. And the competition has definitely benefited the consumer, because services are available at costs they can afford, and lawyers have had to reduce their prices somewhat to convince consumers that they are better off with a lawyer than with legalzoom.

    My point is that, even though this formerly illegal competition has probably caused me to make less money personally, I acknowledge that it has been for the greater good, and I do not change my position because of it. My position remains that competition is good for everyone in an economy, even when a whole lot of people are competing with me, some in ways that used to be illegal.

    So, you’re wrong. I would still believe what I believe about a free market economy, even if hoards of attorneys entered the United States from Mexico and started to compete with me. There are already hoards of people cometing with me. They just aren’t from Mexico.

  • kerner

    Susan:

    I knew your comments were satire. And I understand the concept of licensing. All kinds of occupations require a license, from practicing medicine to cosmetology. The purpose of the license is to assure the consumer that the license holder has studied and passed a test that established that he has a minimum amount of knowledge in that field, and also that the practitioner is subject to a code of ethics and conduct. Such licenses have been attacked, seriously, as a restriction on free market competition.This is more true for for occupations that are relatively easy to learn, like cosmetology, and less true for life and death occupations like medicine.

    Practicing law probably falls closer to medicine. But, there used to be much more restriction on what services a non-lawyer could provide. The sort of advice on how to make a will, or draft corporate documents, or pleadings in a legal action such as a divorce or probate court, which is now given by non-lawyers all over the country, is something that only a lawyer could do until recently.

    This is “competition” that used to be illegal. It has caused lawyers to make less money in a field that is already very competitive.

    The reason I responded to your satirical comment is that you have repeatedly claimed that, if I had to deal with the “unfair” and illegal competition that lower skilled workers have to deal with from immigrants, then I would sing a different tune.

    What I am trying to say is that you are wrong about that. You may disagree with my position on the benefits of a competitive economic system, but you are wrong about me only believing that because I supposedly have never experienced strong competition.

    I have been trying to explain that I do, in fact, experience competition every day, because my field is very competitive, and because law schools are graduating more lawyers every year, and because a lot of services that used to be illegal to provide if you weren’t a lawyer can now be provided by non-lawyers as long as they give a disclaimer.

    Despite all this competition, some of which used to be illegal, I make a living. And the competition has definitely benefited the consumer, because services are available at costs they can afford, and lawyers have had to reduce their prices somewhat to convince consumers that they are better off with a lawyer than with legalzoom.

    My point is that, even though this formerly illegal competition has probably caused me to make less money personally, I acknowledge that it has been for the greater good, and I do not change my position because of it. My position remains that competition is good for everyone in an economy, even when a whole lot of people are competing with me, some in ways that used to be illegal.

    So, you’re wrong. I would still believe what I believe about a free market economy, even if hoards of attorneys entered the United States from Mexico and started to compete with me. There are already hoards of people cometing with me. They just aren’t from Mexico.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Re: “you have repeatedly claimed that, if I had to deal with the “unfair” and illegal competition that lower skilled workers have to deal with from immigrants, then I would sing a different tune.”

    I didn’t “claim repeatedly” – it would help if you didn’t have a penchant for exaggeration. Since it is common knowledge that licensing varies from state-to-state and not all professions are licensed or regulated in all states in the same way (a license may be required in one state and not required in another and/or have more/less/none regulations attached to it) it seems silly to lecture about it. Surely… the lawyer doth protest too much.

    When you are ready to de-license attorneys so that any untrained person, including illegal immigrants, can practice law in competition with you, perhaps then, you will be ready for open borders and free markets.

    P.S. We are all facing greater competition in the marketplace than we used to, so your profession is nothing special, in fact, has greater protections from competition than many others.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Re: “you have repeatedly claimed that, if I had to deal with the “unfair” and illegal competition that lower skilled workers have to deal with from immigrants, then I would sing a different tune.”

    I didn’t “claim repeatedly” – it would help if you didn’t have a penchant for exaggeration. Since it is common knowledge that licensing varies from state-to-state and not all professions are licensed or regulated in all states in the same way (a license may be required in one state and not required in another and/or have more/less/none regulations attached to it) it seems silly to lecture about it. Surely… the lawyer doth protest too much.

    When you are ready to de-license attorneys so that any untrained person, including illegal immigrants, can practice law in competition with you, perhaps then, you will be ready for open borders and free markets.

    P.S. We are all facing greater competition in the marketplace than we used to, so your profession is nothing special, in fact, has greater protections from competition than many others.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    No one wants their own privileges taken away.

    Anyway, sometimes I wonder whether employers experience how extremely low performing employees disrupt their operations and are actually fine with higher performing people being taxed to pay a subsistence for them just to keep them out of the work force because they are really that bad.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    No one wants their own privileges taken away.

    Anyway, sometimes I wonder whether employers experience how extremely low performing employees disrupt their operations and are actually fine with higher performing people being taxed to pay a subsistence for them just to keep them out of the work force because they are really that bad.

  • Grace

    Susan

    California is saturated with attorney’s, especially in Southern CA. My husband has been introduced to a great many who are trying to enter other fields, with their law degree, believing it will give them the ‘upper hand when doing business. It doesn’t work out.

    Most firms are not interested in lawyers being part of their business. They have their own legal counsel, and need not hire an in-house attorney that is trying his hand in another profession. The other negative is; most people don’t trust attorney’s – it’s just that simple. The attorney’s can complain and grumble, but the track records speak for themselves.

    Lawyers who have accomplished much, have proven themselves, have the respect of those they serve. They work harder, they don’t exagerate their importance, nor do they believe they have nothing left to learn – the others stray behind, often trying to leave the firm, hunting for another field to use their law degree.

    An amusing aspect of attorney’s trying to enter other fields – they honestly believe they will have the upper-hand over those who’s profession they are trying to enter.

    Paralegals have a much better opportunity of stepping out of the law firm and entering other fields. They know how to research, and they are far more interested in ‘learning, rather than believing they have all the answers.

  • Grace

    Susan

    California is saturated with attorney’s, especially in Southern CA. My husband has been introduced to a great many who are trying to enter other fields, with their law degree, believing it will give them the ‘upper hand when doing business. It doesn’t work out.

    Most firms are not interested in lawyers being part of their business. They have their own legal counsel, and need not hire an in-house attorney that is trying his hand in another profession. The other negative is; most people don’t trust attorney’s – it’s just that simple. The attorney’s can complain and grumble, but the track records speak for themselves.

    Lawyers who have accomplished much, have proven themselves, have the respect of those they serve. They work harder, they don’t exagerate their importance, nor do they believe they have nothing left to learn – the others stray behind, often trying to leave the firm, hunting for another field to use their law degree.

    An amusing aspect of attorney’s trying to enter other fields – they honestly believe they will have the upper-hand over those who’s profession they are trying to enter.

    Paralegals have a much better opportunity of stepping out of the law firm and entering other fields. They know how to research, and they are far more interested in ‘learning, rather than believing they have all the answers.

  • Susan

    @ sg

    Re: “extremely low performing employees”

    Once upon a time, there actually were companies who did include them in their workforce. Hewlett Packard used to have special division for those with Down Syndrome where they could work together under less pressure making product parts. HP also used to integrate some of the higher functioning Autistic types or those with disabilities like blindness into the regular workforce. There also used to be Grocery chains who would hire Down Syndrome adults as sackers and carry-out services. It used to not be that unusual to see lower performing people working in a large variety of small businesses, but I haven’t seen these workers for a long time.

    The Goodwill still employs them at some of their locations where they sort and repair the donations and ready them for shipment to different Goodwill store locations. The government still has programs for people with disabilities, but I rarely see people with disabilities working in the marketplace anymore and I wish that had not changed. I miss them. I have wondered if their disappearance from the workforce has any correlation with the rise in illegal immigration.

  • Susan

    @ sg

    Re: “extremely low performing employees”

    Once upon a time, there actually were companies who did include them in their workforce. Hewlett Packard used to have special division for those with Down Syndrome where they could work together under less pressure making product parts. HP also used to integrate some of the higher functioning Autistic types or those with disabilities like blindness into the regular workforce. There also used to be Grocery chains who would hire Down Syndrome adults as sackers and carry-out services. It used to not be that unusual to see lower performing people working in a large variety of small businesses, but I haven’t seen these workers for a long time.

    The Goodwill still employs them at some of their locations where they sort and repair the donations and ready them for shipment to different Goodwill store locations. The government still has programs for people with disabilities, but I rarely see people with disabilities working in the marketplace anymore and I wish that had not changed. I miss them. I have wondered if their disappearance from the workforce has any correlation with the rise in illegal immigration.

  • kerner

    Grace @96:
    Generally, you’re right. Everybody thinks that a Law degree is a ticket to easy money. But it a very competitive field and unless you are a partner’s child, a lawyer has to work hard to succeed, and success may not be the luxurious life style you thought it would be.

    And people who think that a law degree can get you into other field are misguided, just as you say. Law school is difficult and expensive. It’s a big mistake to go through it if you don’t want to practice law. I always tell young people who think a law degree will give them an advantage in business: If you want to go into business, get an MBA.

  • kerner

    Grace @96:
    Generally, you’re right. Everybody thinks that a Law degree is a ticket to easy money. But it a very competitive field and unless you are a partner’s child, a lawyer has to work hard to succeed, and success may not be the luxurious life style you thought it would be.

    And people who think that a law degree can get you into other field are misguided, just as you say. Law school is difficult and expensive. It’s a big mistake to go through it if you don’t want to practice law. I always tell young people who think a law degree will give them an advantage in business: If you want to go into business, get an MBA.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    I have heard your description of the problems many attorneys are having making a living repeated in a number of quarters. I don’t know any companies that still have in-house attorneys like they used to. Most seem to prefer to use retainers. I know for small businesses, the owners normally hire attorneys who have been recommended by others and they are attorneys who specialize in the problem that needs to be addressed. The successful ones I know are incredibly sharp professionals who enjoy a reputation for, as you said, respecting their clients and I would add don’t waste their client’s time or money.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    I have heard your description of the problems many attorneys are having making a living repeated in a number of quarters. I don’t know any companies that still have in-house attorneys like they used to. Most seem to prefer to use retainers. I know for small businesses, the owners normally hire attorneys who have been recommended by others and they are attorneys who specialize in the problem that needs to be addressed. The successful ones I know are incredibly sharp professionals who enjoy a reputation for, as you said, respecting their clients and I would add don’t waste their client’s time or money.

  • Susan

    @96 – big oops – I should have written “how much correlation” instead of “has any correlation” since it’s role is but one factor.

  • Susan

    @96 – big oops – I should have written “how much correlation” instead of “has any correlation” since it’s role is but one factor.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 97

    “But it a very competitive field and unless you are a partner’s child, a lawyer has to work hard to succeed, and success may not be the luxurious life style you thought it would be.”

    The most successful attorney’s I know have not been related in any way to the partner. They are very talented, and work hard, which inabled them to rise to the top position. One of the CEO’s of a leading law firm in Los Angeles, had no relatives in that firm, yet he was the one chosen for the position. I have known the family for a long time.

    We have attorney’s in our family, several have risen straight to the top, even as young as 32, heading up some of the most important projects in California. Hard work and talent – there is no luck involved. One of the men is a very strong Christian fantastic father and husband.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 97

    “But it a very competitive field and unless you are a partner’s child, a lawyer has to work hard to succeed, and success may not be the luxurious life style you thought it would be.”

    The most successful attorney’s I know have not been related in any way to the partner. They are very talented, and work hard, which inabled them to rise to the top position. One of the CEO’s of a leading law firm in Los Angeles, had no relatives in that firm, yet he was the one chosen for the position. I have known the family for a long time.

    We have attorney’s in our family, several have risen straight to the top, even as young as 32, heading up some of the most important projects in California. Hard work and talent – there is no luck involved. One of the men is a very strong Christian fantastic father and husband.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 98

    “The successful ones I know are incredibly sharp professionals who enjoy a reputation for, as you said, respecting their clients and I would add don’t waste their client’s time or money.

    Your last sentence is one of the keys, however all to many attorney’s ignore the advice, seeking the highest dollar for poor work, little research, and most of all no interest in the welfare of their client, or the outcome. Billing the client for every single phone call, email, and anything else they can jot down. They deserve the reputation they have earned – that of little respect.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 98

    “The successful ones I know are incredibly sharp professionals who enjoy a reputation for, as you said, respecting their clients and I would add don’t waste their client’s time or money.

    Your last sentence is one of the keys, however all to many attorney’s ignore the advice, seeking the highest dollar for poor work, little research, and most of all no interest in the welfare of their client, or the outcome. Billing the client for every single phone call, email, and anything else they can jot down. They deserve the reputation they have earned – that of little respect.

  • Grace

    I don’t want anyone to get the idea that I have no respect for any attorney’s – what I want to impart is this; I don’t respect too many, their work is shoddy, their self importance ruins any sort of interaction, which is key to hiring them in the first place.

    It’s to bad that most lawyers can’t see how foolish it is to exaggerate their importance. Humbleness would go a long way in the field of law.

  • Grace

    I don’t want anyone to get the idea that I have no respect for any attorney’s – what I want to impart is this; I don’t respect too many, their work is shoddy, their self importance ruins any sort of interaction, which is key to hiring them in the first place.

    It’s to bad that most lawyers can’t see how foolish it is to exaggerate their importance. Humbleness would go a long way in the field of law.

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    I keep going over this comment you made @ 97.

    “But it a very competitive field and unless you are a partner’s child, a lawyer has to work hard to succeed, and success may not be the luxurious life style you thought it would be.”

    What would you expect Kerner? – would you expect NOT “to work hard to succeed”? This is one of the problems. People don’t want to work hard, they believe that only those who are relatives, or children of the owner, partner, be it a doctor or anyone else doesn’t have to work hard, or has received a free ride. In most cases that’s false.

    HARD WORK pays off. Those who work the hardest go much further. That should be obvious.

  • Grace

    Kerner,

    I keep going over this comment you made @ 97.

    “But it a very competitive field and unless you are a partner’s child, a lawyer has to work hard to succeed, and success may not be the luxurious life style you thought it would be.”

    What would you expect Kerner? – would you expect NOT “to work hard to succeed”? This is one of the problems. People don’t want to work hard, they believe that only those who are relatives, or children of the owner, partner, be it a doctor or anyone else doesn’t have to work hard, or has received a free ride. In most cases that’s false.

    HARD WORK pays off. Those who work the hardest go much further. That should be obvious.

  • Grace

    Kerne @ 89

    Your post was made available only a short time ago – most likely because you used too many LINKS.

    At any rate, you’re making a lot of comments, using links, but at the same time you have no real sense of the situation within the border states – rather using your LONG DISTANCE approach to a problem that continues to grow and become much worse – as sit back, and ARM CHAIRING, rather than admitting you have no real knowledge.

    I gave you the information. ILLEGAL ALIENS couldn’t set foot on American soil without taking the proper steps. It should be the same today. Did you read all the disease they bring with them?
    POSTS 83, 84 and 85 Try going back and read them again, maybe you’ll get it.

    An excerpt from one of those posts:

    “While crowded emergency rooms cater to illegal aliens (and political correctness), many of them harbor other diseases, as well – diseases that American medicine vanquished LONG AGO, such as

    drug-resistant TB,
    malaria,
    leprosy,
    PLAGUE,
    polio, and
    Chagas disease, a dreadful parasitic infection.

    Estimates indicate that the current illegal alien population in the USA 12+ million. Recently reported in the American Journal of Physicians and Surgeons, Illegal aliens’ assault on medicine is alarming.”

  • Grace

    Kerne @ 89

    Your post was made available only a short time ago – most likely because you used too many LINKS.

    At any rate, you’re making a lot of comments, using links, but at the same time you have no real sense of the situation within the border states – rather using your LONG DISTANCE approach to a problem that continues to grow and become much worse – as sit back, and ARM CHAIRING, rather than admitting you have no real knowledge.

    I gave you the information. ILLEGAL ALIENS couldn’t set foot on American soil without taking the proper steps. It should be the same today. Did you read all the disease they bring with them?
    POSTS 83, 84 and 85 Try going back and read them again, maybe you’ll get it.

    An excerpt from one of those posts:

    “While crowded emergency rooms cater to illegal aliens (and political correctness), many of them harbor other diseases, as well – diseases that American medicine vanquished LONG AGO, such as

    drug-resistant TB,
    malaria,
    leprosy,
    PLAGUE,
    polio, and
    Chagas disease, a dreadful parasitic infection.

    Estimates indicate that the current illegal alien population in the USA 12+ million. Recently reported in the American Journal of Physicians and Surgeons, Illegal aliens’ assault on medicine is alarming.”

  • Susan

    @ Grace – I would love to find out who the attorneys in white hats are in this case:

    TEXAS COMMUNITY BANK, SENIORS AND FREE ENTERPRISE GROUPS FILE SUIT CHALLENGING DODD-FRANK

    http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/06/breaking-bank-launches-constitutional-challenge-to-dodd-frank-financial-reform-law

    and

    http://www.americanbanker.com/issues/177_120/texas-bank-to-take-lead-in-cfpb-lawsuit-1050307-1.html

  • Susan

    @ Grace – I would love to find out who the attorneys in white hats are in this case:

    TEXAS COMMUNITY BANK, SENIORS AND FREE ENTERPRISE GROUPS FILE SUIT CHALLENGING DODD-FRANK

    http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/06/breaking-bank-launches-constitutional-challenge-to-dodd-frank-financial-reform-law

    and

    http://www.americanbanker.com/issues/177_120/texas-bank-to-take-lead-in-cfpb-lawsuit-1050307-1.html

  • Grace

    Susan

    Do you have any clues?

  • Grace

    Susan

    Do you have any clues?

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    One of the things I’ve noticed is that we all want to be generous. It feels good and we like to feel good about ourselves and to receive positive feedback. No one likes to say no and feel like a scrooge or be told they are heartless or racist. It’s also easy to be magnanimous with other people’s money and possessions. Sometimes I don’t think they don’t realize how patronizing and condescending they are towards the illegals. They don’t have faces and are caricatures or stereotypes.

    Saying no seems to be cruel and unusual treatment for the open border folk. It reminds me of people who think saying no to your kids is mean or disciplining your kids is cruel. The illegals are citizens of other nations. They have a nation that they belong to. Saying no and sending them home is not cruel. It’s cruel to tell your neighbor he has no right to say no to trespassers, he has no right to enforce laws to protect his property, and must personally pay for all the damage illegals do to your neighborhoods, schools, stores, and so forth. They forget that the federal government isn’t paying for most of their welfare, courts, and prison costs. The affected states, cities, and counties are paying for them. It’s not reality for them. The illegals don’t have faces and names. Neither do we. It’s abstract.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    One of the things I’ve noticed is that we all want to be generous. It feels good and we like to feel good about ourselves and to receive positive feedback. No one likes to say no and feel like a scrooge or be told they are heartless or racist. It’s also easy to be magnanimous with other people’s money and possessions. Sometimes I don’t think they don’t realize how patronizing and condescending they are towards the illegals. They don’t have faces and are caricatures or stereotypes.

    Saying no seems to be cruel and unusual treatment for the open border folk. It reminds me of people who think saying no to your kids is mean or disciplining your kids is cruel. The illegals are citizens of other nations. They have a nation that they belong to. Saying no and sending them home is not cruel. It’s cruel to tell your neighbor he has no right to say no to trespassers, he has no right to enforce laws to protect his property, and must personally pay for all the damage illegals do to your neighborhoods, schools, stores, and so forth. They forget that the federal government isn’t paying for most of their welfare, courts, and prison costs. The affected states, cities, and counties are paying for them. It’s not reality for them. The illegals don’t have faces and names. Neither do we. It’s abstract.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    Another thought: there is the temptation to feel good about ourselves as Christians. Think of how the Catholics and numerous evangelicals jumped on Obama’s bandwagon. They didn’t think through what he did to the rule of law or balance of power needed in our government. Or how rashly and hastily it was put together: the lack of logistics to be able to implement it; the lack of funding to pay for it; the lack of protection from fraud; the lack of testing for unintended consequences. Or how many people would be hurt by the largesse.

  • Susan

    @ Grace

    Another thought: there is the temptation to feel good about ourselves as Christians. Think of how the Catholics and numerous evangelicals jumped on Obama’s bandwagon. They didn’t think through what he did to the rule of law or balance of power needed in our government. Or how rashly and hastily it was put together: the lack of logistics to be able to implement it; the lack of funding to pay for it; the lack of protection from fraud; the lack of testing for unintended consequences. Or how many people would be hurt by the largesse.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 108

    I agree with you – The entire illegal alien situation is out of hand. The majority of Americans cannot fathom the problems border states face – they are only interested in their own situations, which have developed rapidly in the past few years, regarding the economy. They look upon the illegals as something they don’t have to deal with, it’s not their problem, they have problems of their own. We who live in the states most affected can deal with it. That is what we are left with.

    Even highly educated people from other states, are deaf, when it comes to illegals. For some reason this unlawful behavior can be set-aside, or ignored. It will however, effect everyone in this country much sooner then the citizens understand. If they think the economy is bad now – - wait until they have to pay the tab for illegal aliens as LEGAL – it will be to late to wake up.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 108

    I agree with you – The entire illegal alien situation is out of hand. The majority of Americans cannot fathom the problems border states face – they are only interested in their own situations, which have developed rapidly in the past few years, regarding the economy. They look upon the illegals as something they don’t have to deal with, it’s not their problem, they have problems of their own. We who live in the states most affected can deal with it. That is what we are left with.

    Even highly educated people from other states, are deaf, when it comes to illegals. For some reason this unlawful behavior can be set-aside, or ignored. It will however, effect everyone in this country much sooner then the citizens understand. If they think the economy is bad now – - wait until they have to pay the tab for illegal aliens as LEGAL – it will be to late to wake up.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 109

    YOU WROTE: “Another thought: there is the temptation to feel good about ourselves as Christians. Think of how the Catholics and numerous evangelicals jumped on Obama’s bandwagon. They didn’t think through what he did to the rule of law or balance of power needed in our government. Or how rashly and hastily it was put together: the lack of logistics to be able to implement it; the lack of funding to pay for it; the lack of protection from fraud; the lack of testing for unintended consequences. Or how many people would be hurt by the largesse.”

    I’m not fond of copy paste every post, but in this case, it seems appropriate.

    I believe the American people were caught up, for the most part, as making a statement regarding the past, making the future something of a 60′s moment, with a new twist.

    No matter how we tried to warn those dancing to the Obama drum, the louder it beat. There was no proof given, that the bystanders with loud speakers could hear, it was their moment, and nothing was going to stop them.

    I am affilliated with an Evangelical church. None of us were impressed with Obama, nor did anyone I know vote for the man. It wasn’t a surprise that he won, it was the worst possible choice. Obama is more disasterous to this nation than I, or most anyone else I know, could have ever imagined, .. but it happened. Only God knows why, and how it will end.

    The future to me, doesn’t look well right now.

    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    2 John 1

    This passage of Scripture was brought to my attention this morning. There are many deceivers in our midst.

    As for “Obama’s bandwagon” it doesn’t have much music, nor are the loud speakers making sense. Maybe it’s too late, or perhaps the LORD has a plan we could never imagine.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 109

    YOU WROTE: “Another thought: there is the temptation to feel good about ourselves as Christians. Think of how the Catholics and numerous evangelicals jumped on Obama’s bandwagon. They didn’t think through what he did to the rule of law or balance of power needed in our government. Or how rashly and hastily it was put together: the lack of logistics to be able to implement it; the lack of funding to pay for it; the lack of protection from fraud; the lack of testing for unintended consequences. Or how many people would be hurt by the largesse.”

    I’m not fond of copy paste every post, but in this case, it seems appropriate.

    I believe the American people were caught up, for the most part, as making a statement regarding the past, making the future something of a 60′s moment, with a new twist.

    No matter how we tried to warn those dancing to the Obama drum, the louder it beat. There was no proof given, that the bystanders with loud speakers could hear, it was their moment, and nothing was going to stop them.

    I am affilliated with an Evangelical church. None of us were impressed with Obama, nor did anyone I know vote for the man. It wasn’t a surprise that he won, it was the worst possible choice. Obama is more disasterous to this nation than I, or most anyone else I know, could have ever imagined, .. but it happened. Only God knows why, and how it will end.

    The future to me, doesn’t look well right now.

    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    2 John 1

    This passage of Scripture was brought to my attention this morning. There are many deceivers in our midst.

    As for “Obama’s bandwagon” it doesn’t have much music, nor are the loud speakers making sense. Maybe it’s too late, or perhaps the LORD has a plan we could never imagine.

  • kerner

    Susan and sg:

    In 2005 the Comptroller of the State of Texas did a study to determine the economic costs and/or benefits resulting from the presence of illegal aliens in Texas. The results were as follows:

    As to tax revenue alone, Texas State government took in $424.7 million more from illegal aliens than it spent on them. This was partly due to Texas’ system of taxation which is based almost entirely on consumption taxes (Texas has no personal inclome tax) which are not avoided by an underground economy.

    Local governments, however, took a revenue loss of $928.9 million.

    But, the illegals contribute so much to the Texas economy that the Texas gross state product is $17.7 BILLION greater because the illegals are there. This translates into an increased personal income to Texans of $18.5 BILLION.

    In other words, the Texas economy including all the illegal aliens made Texans $18.5 billion dollars richer in 2005 than they would have been without the illegals. And Texas State government made a profit of $424.7 million dollars from the illegals, because they pay more into the state than they take out. Local governments took a loss of $928.9 million dollars, which Texas citizens had to pay out of the $18.5 BILLION dollars that the illegals made for them.

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/7conclusion.html

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/6economic.html

    Now, I realize that I don’t leve in Texas, but I assume that the Texas State Comptroller DOES live there. And her conclusion was that in 2005 Texans were a lot better off financially with the presence of illegals than they would have been without them.

    The economy was good in 2005, so that may have changed. But any change would not be due to the illegals per se, but would instead be due to the housing market crash (both parties’ fault) followed by 3.5 years of Obamanomics (the democrats’ fault) that has caused the bad ecomony to drag on far longer than it should have. And the bad economy, as I have said before, is actually causing the illegals to go back faster than any government policy ever could.

    I realize that this may make no difference to you at all, because some of you just don’t like the illegals and you don’t want to believe that they have actually made Texans wealthier on balance.

  • kerner

    Susan and sg:

    In 2005 the Comptroller of the State of Texas did a study to determine the economic costs and/or benefits resulting from the presence of illegal aliens in Texas. The results were as follows:

    As to tax revenue alone, Texas State government took in $424.7 million more from illegal aliens than it spent on them. This was partly due to Texas’ system of taxation which is based almost entirely on consumption taxes (Texas has no personal inclome tax) which are not avoided by an underground economy.

    Local governments, however, took a revenue loss of $928.9 million.

    But, the illegals contribute so much to the Texas economy that the Texas gross state product is $17.7 BILLION greater because the illegals are there. This translates into an increased personal income to Texans of $18.5 BILLION.

    In other words, the Texas economy including all the illegal aliens made Texans $18.5 billion dollars richer in 2005 than they would have been without the illegals. And Texas State government made a profit of $424.7 million dollars from the illegals, because they pay more into the state than they take out. Local governments took a loss of $928.9 million dollars, which Texas citizens had to pay out of the $18.5 BILLION dollars that the illegals made for them.

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/7conclusion.html

    http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/6economic.html

    Now, I realize that I don’t leve in Texas, but I assume that the Texas State Comptroller DOES live there. And her conclusion was that in 2005 Texans were a lot better off financially with the presence of illegals than they would have been without them.

    The economy was good in 2005, so that may have changed. But any change would not be due to the illegals per se, but would instead be due to the housing market crash (both parties’ fault) followed by 3.5 years of Obamanomics (the democrats’ fault) that has caused the bad ecomony to drag on far longer than it should have. And the bad economy, as I have said before, is actually causing the illegals to go back faster than any government policy ever could.

    I realize that this may make no difference to you at all, because some of you just don’t like the illegals and you don’t want to believe that they have actually made Texans wealthier on balance.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Please reread the report. You didn’t interpret the report correctly and your numbers are grossly off.

    A basic missed is who pays for the losses at the local level. Like most states, our sales taxes are split between the city, county, and state. This means that the residents are paying higher sales tax rates to cover the losses. Which means citizens have to pay higher city and county sales taxes that they would not otherwise need to pay. Texans also pay higher property taxes and school assessments to cover the costs at the local level. In my county, we also pay an additional assessment rate in our property taxes for the hospital and clinics that serve the indigent citizens and illegals. So… citizens are paying for the local government costs out of our pockets. The estimated $1.4 billion in costs aren’t reimbursed by the state. And the report doesn’t address other costs like the wear on city/county infrastructure systems, repairs, and replacements.

    On the state level, according to the report: “the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million.” and notes that these are estimates. . So we are looking at about $425 million net received by the state. Which isn’t much in a state the size of Texas.

    Lastly, these estimates are from 2005 which was before the deep recession we are in. The comptroller’s numbers may or may not be accurate. It depends on how accurate the estimates and the models used are. It could be very inaccurate. It doesn’t address how immigration from other states would impact the state.
    Texas has had approximately 2.5 million citizens from other states move here for employment reasons over the last 4 years. This number does not include the new illegals who have arrived during this time frame. It also doesn’t address how many teens and seniors would be employed if they were not displaced by illegals. Both those age groups aren’t counted in the work force/unemployment numbers if they give up looking for work or drop out of the workforce because of the competition. It also doesn’t address the impact of money laundering activities. Those are just a few of the surface flaws after a cursory look at the report.

  • Susan

    @ kerner

    Please reread the report. You didn’t interpret the report correctly and your numbers are grossly off.

    A basic missed is who pays for the losses at the local level. Like most states, our sales taxes are split between the city, county, and state. This means that the residents are paying higher sales tax rates to cover the losses. Which means citizens have to pay higher city and county sales taxes that they would not otherwise need to pay. Texans also pay higher property taxes and school assessments to cover the costs at the local level. In my county, we also pay an additional assessment rate in our property taxes for the hospital and clinics that serve the indigent citizens and illegals. So… citizens are paying for the local government costs out of our pockets. The estimated $1.4 billion in costs aren’t reimbursed by the state. And the report doesn’t address other costs like the wear on city/county infrastructure systems, repairs, and replacements.

    On the state level, according to the report: “the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million.” and notes that these are estimates. . So we are looking at about $425 million net received by the state. Which isn’t much in a state the size of Texas.

    Lastly, these estimates are from 2005 which was before the deep recession we are in. The comptroller’s numbers may or may not be accurate. It depends on how accurate the estimates and the models used are. It could be very inaccurate. It doesn’t address how immigration from other states would impact the state.
    Texas has had approximately 2.5 million citizens from other states move here for employment reasons over the last 4 years. This number does not include the new illegals who have arrived during this time frame. It also doesn’t address how many teens and seniors would be employed if they were not displaced by illegals. Both those age groups aren’t counted in the work force/unemployment numbers if they give up looking for work or drop out of the workforce because of the competition. It also doesn’t address the impact of money laundering activities. Those are just a few of the surface flaws after a cursory look at the report.

  • Susan

    There are some important factors that need to be acknowledged in this report. Not only do we need to be concerned whether the assumptions, estimates, and models are accurate, but the report does not distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants. So we are clueless regarding the impact of illegals. Report excerpt:

    “Estimating state government revenue attributable to undocumented immigrants is a difficult undertaking because any calculations must be based both on limited data and a number of significant assumptions about spending behavior. A review of the literature found several studies on undocumented immigrant impacts, but none that could be used as a model for Texas. Primarily, these studies focused on the impact of all immigrants, regardless of legal status, and the analyses focused on federal or state income tax revenue. Since Texas has no income tax, any estimate of state tax revenue must be based on its mix of consumption and business taxes.”

    We also aren’t addressing the out-of-pocket expenses from crime, property damages, and other harm suffered by citizens.

  • Susan

    There are some important factors that need to be acknowledged in this report. Not only do we need to be concerned whether the assumptions, estimates, and models are accurate, but the report does not distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants. So we are clueless regarding the impact of illegals. Report excerpt:

    “Estimating state government revenue attributable to undocumented immigrants is a difficult undertaking because any calculations must be based both on limited data and a number of significant assumptions about spending behavior. A review of the literature found several studies on undocumented immigrant impacts, but none that could be used as a model for Texas. Primarily, these studies focused on the impact of all immigrants, regardless of legal status, and the analyses focused on federal or state income tax revenue. Since Texas has no income tax, any estimate of state tax revenue must be based on its mix of consumption and business taxes.”

    We also aren’t addressing the out-of-pocket expenses from crime, property damages, and other harm suffered by citizens.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X