Conservatives won at the University of Virginia

You have perhaps heard about how the University of Virginia board fired the university president Teresa Sullivan, whereupon a huge uproar ensued, and she was hired back.

I’ve heard conservatives lament the re-hiring, saying that the lunatics are in charge of the asylum, that this just re-enforces the corruption in higher education, that this is another example of  academic elites stifling reform, etc., etc.

But in this case a conservative philosophy of education was victorious over more progressive attempts to make higher education, which is admittedly frought with problems today, even worse.

First, the board members who led the charge against President Sullivan were liberals and Democratic appointees.  But more importantly, the issues she was fired over had to do with her championing traditional education over and against the changes that are already damaging many colleges.

She resisted the proposal to have UVA go in the direction of online programs.  (I’m not saying online courses are necessarily bad, but the example of for-profit online colleges is not a good one to follow.)  Most telling was this complaint from the board, her resistance to shutting down “obscure academic departments in classics and German.”

Classics an obscure program?  In Mr. Jefferson’s day, classics (the study of Latin and Greek, as well as the history and literature of those ancient societies) was about the only program there was!   Since classics exists to preserve and pass down the heritage of our civilization, it’s often a haven for conservative faculty and students.  German is obscure?  The eclipse of  foreign language is one of the weaknesses of American education.

What is at issue here is preservation of the liberal arts tradition in higher education over against contemporary academic  trendiness.

The problems in higher education are thoroughly documented in Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses.  It isn’t the conflict between “impractical” and “practical” education or humanities vs. science.  (Science and math are also part of the liberal arts tradition.)  As that book, written by mainstream scholars and not conservative culture warriors, shows, students are graduating without knowing or being able to do very much, due to the collapse of academic standards, bad teaching, a hedonistic student culture, the bad effects of federal funding, and all kinds of other dysfunctions.  As a result, graduates are learning less than they did under old school colleges (when the values of the liberal arts ruled).

At any rate, this time conservatives–in the sense of conservative educators and conservative higher education theory–won at the University of Virginia.

via U-Va. board leaders wanted President Teresa Sullivan to make cuts – The Washington Post.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Matthew

    I’m curious about the statement that “… the example of for-profit online colleges is not a good one to follow.” Why not? I don’t intend to plant a rhetorical flag and defend it with my life here, but I’m curious as to what you find flawed about that model.

  • Matthew

    I’m curious about the statement that “… the example of for-profit online colleges is not a good one to follow.” Why not? I don’t intend to plant a rhetorical flag and defend it with my life here, but I’m curious as to what you find flawed about that model.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” It isn’t the conflict between “impractical” and “practical” education or humanities vs. science. (Science and math are also part of the liberal arts tradition.) ”

    Very important observation. I remember one of my college physics professors making the point to us that more lives had been saved over the past 50 years due to inventions and technologies outside of practical medical research than within it. Pie in the sky, ivory tower inquiry into the underpinnings of the nature of the universe ultimately yielded things like early detection technologies that prevent both unnecessary surgeries and waiting too long to treat urgent problems.

    I love technologies and practical pursuits, but they have to be based on actual knowledge of what is going on and how stuff really works. For that to happen you have to care about truth and finding it, not creating it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” It isn’t the conflict between “impractical” and “practical” education or humanities vs. science. (Science and math are also part of the liberal arts tradition.) ”

    Very important observation. I remember one of my college physics professors making the point to us that more lives had been saved over the past 50 years due to inventions and technologies outside of practical medical research than within it. Pie in the sky, ivory tower inquiry into the underpinnings of the nature of the universe ultimately yielded things like early detection technologies that prevent both unnecessary surgeries and waiting too long to treat urgent problems.

    I love technologies and practical pursuits, but they have to be based on actual knowledge of what is going on and how stuff really works. For that to happen you have to care about truth and finding it, not creating it.

  • http://womanofthehouse-blog.blogspot.com/ Woman of the House

    Hurray for the University of Virginia keeping classics! I’m married to a classicist and I’m always alarmed when I hear of classics departments being shut down or classics degree being denigrated a la rush Limbaugh.

  • http://womanofthehouse-blog.blogspot.com/ Woman of the House

    Hurray for the University of Virginia keeping classics! I’m married to a classicist and I’m always alarmed when I hear of classics departments being shut down or classics degree being denigrated a la rush Limbaugh.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Veith, I think your perspective is affecting your view. Your background lends you to seeing the value of the classics. Most people who have at best a passing experience with the classics find it rather obscure. They have little to no impact on their lives that they can easily perceive.

    It is easier for them to understand how something as esoteric as theoretical physics can impact them when they see the more “practically minded” scientists and engineers turning the theorists work into working technologies. It is harder for them to understand how the study of Greek society has anything to do with modern society. Couple this with the wrong headed notion that we have evolved beyond such a primitive and superstitious mindset and you have the perfect equation to justify the elimination of the classics.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    Veith, I think your perspective is affecting your view. Your background lends you to seeing the value of the classics. Most people who have at best a passing experience with the classics find it rather obscure. They have little to no impact on their lives that they can easily perceive.

    It is easier for them to understand how something as esoteric as theoretical physics can impact them when they see the more “practically minded” scientists and engineers turning the theorists work into working technologies. It is harder for them to understand how the study of Greek society has anything to do with modern society. Couple this with the wrong headed notion that we have evolved beyond such a primitive and superstitious mindset and you have the perfect equation to justify the elimination of the classics.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Consider the irony of thinking that it is sad that so many languages and cultures are dying and being lost while advocating the termination of the study of ancient languages that connect us to many of our own cultural foundations. So, do those who want to close down the study of Latin and ancient languages also want to end funding of anthropology projects to document and preserve currently still extant languages with few speakers?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Consider the irony of thinking that it is sad that so many languages and cultures are dying and being lost while advocating the termination of the study of ancient languages that connect us to many of our own cultural foundations. So, do those who want to close down the study of Latin and ancient languages also want to end funding of anthropology projects to document and preserve currently still extant languages with few speakers?

  • SKPeterson

    I serve as an adjunct professor at two local institutions (one a for-profit, and the other a public). As I recall, some of the kerfuffle at UVA stemmed from how to approach on-line education. In general, my experience has been that students often hate the on-line courses because they are deprived of two things: active classroom interaction and direct access to the professor. Saying that, I do recognize that there are wonderful and amazing things that could be well-served by on-line course instruction. Language studies could be one of those. However, much of language learning comes from speaking and interacting with the professor and other students. But, if the language is “dead,” i.e. Latin, Koine Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, etc., on-line instruction may be a valuable and low-cost means of educating students.

    Yet, Dr. Veith’s post makes it evident that the university system is at an existential crisis to some extent. It is faced with a serious set of questions: What is our role in educating people? Are we educating people to take their place in the work force? Are we educating people because education is a goal and end unto itself?

    Couple those imperatives with question on whether the means available are appropriate to the realize the desired ends? State-supported institutions are facing drastic cutbacks in public funding, while they have also been raising tuition at rates far outpacing that of inflation. Moreover, when students are graduating it appears that many universities are failing at either educating people for the workforce, or graduating well-educated individuals, or both. Taxpayers are rightly asking why such a disconnect exists, and if it is a conservative theory of higher education that is creating and perpetuating the dilemma, then people will begin to agitate for change.

    How that plays out, I don’t know.

  • SKPeterson

    I serve as an adjunct professor at two local institutions (one a for-profit, and the other a public). As I recall, some of the kerfuffle at UVA stemmed from how to approach on-line education. In general, my experience has been that students often hate the on-line courses because they are deprived of two things: active classroom interaction and direct access to the professor. Saying that, I do recognize that there are wonderful and amazing things that could be well-served by on-line course instruction. Language studies could be one of those. However, much of language learning comes from speaking and interacting with the professor and other students. But, if the language is “dead,” i.e. Latin, Koine Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, etc., on-line instruction may be a valuable and low-cost means of educating students.

    Yet, Dr. Veith’s post makes it evident that the university system is at an existential crisis to some extent. It is faced with a serious set of questions: What is our role in educating people? Are we educating people to take their place in the work force? Are we educating people because education is a goal and end unto itself?

    Couple those imperatives with question on whether the means available are appropriate to the realize the desired ends? State-supported institutions are facing drastic cutbacks in public funding, while they have also been raising tuition at rates far outpacing that of inflation. Moreover, when students are graduating it appears that many universities are failing at either educating people for the workforce, or graduating well-educated individuals, or both. Taxpayers are rightly asking why such a disconnect exists, and if it is a conservative theory of higher education that is creating and perpetuating the dilemma, then people will begin to agitate for change.

    How that plays out, I don’t know.

  • helen

    It’s an uphill job to “educate” people in college who never learned how to do the work in high school. E.g., what was reputed to be the “best” school system in the Houston area in the 80′s was so deficient that a Texas private college automatically put those graduates it admitted into remedial English. Why? The students never learned how to write. The teachers were addicted (or required?) to use the “11 sentence paragraph”. [Sometimes, the kids said, those sentences weren't read, just counted, for a grade.]
    My eldest, (also taking German) once wrote nearly two pages in 11 sentences. He was told to take the paper back and limit himself to 12 words per sentence! He said, “Mom, I can’t explain this in 131 words!” We pared it down but it said nothing!
    There are schools still doing that. I think it’s abuse.

  • helen

    It’s an uphill job to “educate” people in college who never learned how to do the work in high school. E.g., what was reputed to be the “best” school system in the Houston area in the 80′s was so deficient that a Texas private college automatically put those graduates it admitted into remedial English. Why? The students never learned how to write. The teachers were addicted (or required?) to use the “11 sentence paragraph”. [Sometimes, the kids said, those sentences weren't read, just counted, for a grade.]
    My eldest, (also taking German) once wrote nearly two pages in 11 sentences. He was told to take the paper back and limit himself to 12 words per sentence! He said, “Mom, I can’t explain this in 131 words!” We pared it down but it said nothing!
    There are schools still doing that. I think it’s abuse.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Helen (@7), Houston? Texas private college? Hmm?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Helen (@7), Houston? Texas private college? Hmm?

  • Joe

    The biggest problem facing universities is that they are basically in the same economic position as the housing market right before the crash:

    1. the true value of the product is much lower than its cost

    2. people continue to by the product because we have been lead to believe that buying the degree (house) is a fool proof investment

    3. the federal gov’t guarantees the exorbitant loans taken to get the degree (house) thereby keeping the prices artificially high buy creating false demand and at the same time allowing people who can’t afford to buy the degree to dangerously extend themselves financially.

  • Joe

    The biggest problem facing universities is that they are basically in the same economic position as the housing market right before the crash:

    1. the true value of the product is much lower than its cost

    2. people continue to by the product because we have been lead to believe that buying the degree (house) is a fool proof investment

    3. the federal gov’t guarantees the exorbitant loans taken to get the degree (house) thereby keeping the prices artificially high buy creating false demand and at the same time allowing people who can’t afford to buy the degree to dangerously extend themselves financially.

  • SKPeterson

    Rice will take anybody, Todd. Anybody. Unless they are an 11-Sentence Paragrapher. It used to be 10-Sentence Paragraphers, but over time standards slip, and we’re now suffering from the ever slippery slope of paragraph inflation. It used to be that students learned the 3 to 5 Rule, and Rice strictly admitted only 3-to-5′ers. That all changed, though, when Ulysses was declared to be “quality” literature. Two sentence run-on paragraphs were now de rigeur, and the university had to respond. It’s accommodation was to break up the run-on sentences settling on first 8 to 9, then 10, and now sadly, it is faced with 11 sentences of excess verbiage and meandering, pointless prose. Rice finally had enough, and decided that there needed to be a balance between content and form in the paragraph. To rectify this, they are taking the hapless youngsters given the dread 11-sentence paragraph form, and sending them through a rigorous “3-to-5, but occasionally longer is okay” remedial paragraphy. That way Rice can still be “selective”.

    (11 sentences, I think – a perfectly crafted paragraph.)

  • SKPeterson

    Rice will take anybody, Todd. Anybody. Unless they are an 11-Sentence Paragrapher. It used to be 10-Sentence Paragraphers, but over time standards slip, and we’re now suffering from the ever slippery slope of paragraph inflation. It used to be that students learned the 3 to 5 Rule, and Rice strictly admitted only 3-to-5′ers. That all changed, though, when Ulysses was declared to be “quality” literature. Two sentence run-on paragraphs were now de rigeur, and the university had to respond. It’s accommodation was to break up the run-on sentences settling on first 8 to 9, then 10, and now sadly, it is faced with 11 sentences of excess verbiage and meandering, pointless prose. Rice finally had enough, and decided that there needed to be a balance between content and form in the paragraph. To rectify this, they are taking the hapless youngsters given the dread 11-sentence paragraph form, and sending them through a rigorous “3-to-5, but occasionally longer is okay” remedial paragraphy. That way Rice can still be “selective”.

    (11 sentences, I think – a perfectly crafted paragraph.)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Rice will take anybody. Good to know. My son dreams of going there, which I told him is nearly impossible. Currently they are taking about 20% of applicants. Only 40% are white. Among his friends are three families with a total of 12 children all planning to go there because both of their parents did. Therefore, I recommend A&M unless he gets a 2400 on the SAT (as close to impossible as it gets). But I tell him, go ahead and apply. The worst they can say is no.

    I never heard this 11 sentence/word thing. However, I had to laugh when I read this:

    My eldest, (also taking German) once wrote nearly two pages in 11 sentences. He was told to take the paper back and limit himself to 12 words per sentence!

    I took German also. Then I took a non-fiction literature class in which I guess I went on too long in an essay. The professor asked why such long sentences? And what other classes was I writing for? I told him I had to write essays for German class. Then he immediately said that he could then understand what had happened to me.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Rice will take anybody. Good to know. My son dreams of going there, which I told him is nearly impossible. Currently they are taking about 20% of applicants. Only 40% are white. Among his friends are three families with a total of 12 children all planning to go there because both of their parents did. Therefore, I recommend A&M unless he gets a 2400 on the SAT (as close to impossible as it gets). But I tell him, go ahead and apply. The worst they can say is no.

    I never heard this 11 sentence/word thing. However, I had to laugh when I read this:

    My eldest, (also taking German) once wrote nearly two pages in 11 sentences. He was told to take the paper back and limit himself to 12 words per sentence!

    I took German also. Then I took a non-fiction literature class in which I guess I went on too long in an essay. The professor asked why such long sentences? And what other classes was I writing for? I told him I had to write essays for German class. Then he immediately said that he could then understand what had happened to me.

  • SKPeterson

    sg – A&M is a good school. Nothing to be ashamed of there. I was accepted to both TAMU and Rice, but went to UT Arlington. The harm was mostly transient. ;)

  • SKPeterson

    sg – A&M is a good school. Nothing to be ashamed of there. I was accepted to both TAMU and Rice, but went to UT Arlington. The harm was mostly transient. ;)

  • helen

    Helen (@7), Houston? Texas private college? Hmm?

    tODD @ 8
    The school district was Spring Branch on the north side of Houston . The college was Trinity in San Antonio.
    [I wasn't specific because I didn't expect anyone to recognize them.]

  • helen

    Helen (@7), Houston? Texas private college? Hmm?

    tODD @ 8
    The school district was Spring Branch on the north side of Houston . The college was Trinity in San Antonio.
    [I wasn't specific because I didn't expect anyone to recognize them.]

  • helen

    Joe @ 9
    It’s true that you could go to college with a lot simpler lifestyle before they invented those loans.
    My college said that a boy needed a Sunday suit but could come to class in jeans and T-shirts.
    My sons wore jeans and a [nicer] shirt to church, too, I think.

  • helen

    Joe @ 9
    It’s true that you could go to college with a lot simpler lifestyle before they invented those loans.
    My college said that a boy needed a Sunday suit but could come to class in jeans and T-shirts.
    My sons wore jeans and a [nicer] shirt to church, too, I think.

  • Spaulding

    Also some of the attitude that many students today have about liberal arts even as early as elementary school is that if this class doesn’t do squat for getting me a job, I don’t give a d— about it. Which may contribute to the board’s decision. I am of the opinion that if a student has that attitude they should be looking at a two year vocational school or the diploma mills that advertise on TV. (though having read the small print at the end of the commercial about them I wouldn’t advise it) Instead of wasting their and others time and money at a four year school when they are clearly not interested in becoming civilized and learning for its own sake.

  • Spaulding

    Also some of the attitude that many students today have about liberal arts even as early as elementary school is that if this class doesn’t do squat for getting me a job, I don’t give a d— about it. Which may contribute to the board’s decision. I am of the opinion that if a student has that attitude they should be looking at a two year vocational school or the diploma mills that advertise on TV. (though having read the small print at the end of the commercial about them I wouldn’t advise it) Instead of wasting their and others time and money at a four year school when they are clearly not interested in becoming civilized and learning for its own sake.

  • Bob

    #9

    Leave it to a conservative web site with a bunch of right wing retards who like to congratulate themselves on how bright they are, to miss the boat about higher education. It must be the drought.

    1. the true value of the product is much lower than its cost

    Wrong.

    The facts are that a college graduate will earn $22,000 a year more than someone who just graduated from high school.

    And…

    “The typical bachelor’s degree recipient can expect to earn about 66% more during a 40-year working life than the typical high school graduate earns over the same period.”

    For those of you math challenged, 66% is two…oh, never mind.

    “Compared to a high school graduate, the typical four-year college graduate who enrolled at age 18 has earned enough by age 33 to compensate for being out of the labor force for four years, and for borrowing the full amount required to pay tuition and fees without any grant assistance.”

    2. people continue to by the product because we have been lead to believe that buying the degree (house) is a fool proof investment

    Looks like you could use a course in remedial speling. But that aside, who has ever said college is a “fool proof investment?” There is no such guarantee. College is a paper key — and it can be a really strong key, at that.

    Try some facts. Check out this College Board paper — there are plenty of strong advantages for a college grad, not just monetary, but many others, too, for either graduating from, or attending, college.

    http://trends.collegeboard.org/education_pays

    3. the federal gov’t guarantees the exorbitant loans taken to get the degree (house) thereby keeping the prices artificially high buy creating false demand and at the same time allowing people who can’t afford to buy the degree to dangerously extend themselves financially.

    This is just an an emotional argument not backed by anything of substance…also, again, with the speling.

    Let’s look at the facts, not right-wing memes.

  • Bob

    #9

    Leave it to a conservative web site with a bunch of right wing retards who like to congratulate themselves on how bright they are, to miss the boat about higher education. It must be the drought.

    1. the true value of the product is much lower than its cost

    Wrong.

    The facts are that a college graduate will earn $22,000 a year more than someone who just graduated from high school.

    And…

    “The typical bachelor’s degree recipient can expect to earn about 66% more during a 40-year working life than the typical high school graduate earns over the same period.”

    For those of you math challenged, 66% is two…oh, never mind.

    “Compared to a high school graduate, the typical four-year college graduate who enrolled at age 18 has earned enough by age 33 to compensate for being out of the labor force for four years, and for borrowing the full amount required to pay tuition and fees without any grant assistance.”

    2. people continue to by the product because we have been lead to believe that buying the degree (house) is a fool proof investment

    Looks like you could use a course in remedial speling. But that aside, who has ever said college is a “fool proof investment?” There is no such guarantee. College is a paper key — and it can be a really strong key, at that.

    Try some facts. Check out this College Board paper — there are plenty of strong advantages for a college grad, not just monetary, but many others, too, for either graduating from, or attending, college.

    http://trends.collegeboard.org/education_pays

    3. the federal gov’t guarantees the exorbitant loans taken to get the degree (house) thereby keeping the prices artificially high buy creating false demand and at the same time allowing people who can’t afford to buy the degree to dangerously extend themselves financially.

    This is just an an emotional argument not backed by anything of substance…also, again, with the speling.

    Let’s look at the facts, not right-wing memes.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Ooh! Ooh! Let’s all pay close attention to the man (@16) tossing out puerile slurs (“right wing retards”) like a monkey throwing so many feces! Surely he’ll have something intelligent to say!

    Hi, Bob, why don’t you try to impress us right-wing retards (note the hyphen, genius) with actual ideas and intelligence?

    You claim that it’s “wrong” that the true value of a college education is “much lower than its cost”, but then you go on to completely fail to substantiate that claim.

    Instead (and I’m typing this slowly, so you can understand it better), you go on to prove (sort of) that an investment in a college education will generally pay itself off in several years.

    Know what’s missing from that argument? Any proof and/or claim as to what the actual value of a college education is or should be! (Again, let me know if any of these words are too big for you, and I can explic… help you know what the big words mean.)

    You seem to think that the value of a college education is tantamount to the earning power of a recent college graduate. This is, of course, a dubious — and quite likely unexamined — claim, but let’s go with that for now. Quite obviously, then, your claim is that, as the cost of college has rapidly increased over the past couple of decades, the earning power of recent college graduates has kept track over the same period.

    This is, of course, a fascinating claim, one for which I (and all the other retards here) would doubtless welcome any and all evidence you have stored in your ample, ample brain.

    Because, you know, when I used my retard brain to search the Internet, I came across articles like this one that say things like “those who graduated since 2009 are three times more likely to not have found a full-time job than those from the classes of 2006 through 2008,” and “graduates since 2009 have earned an average starting salary of $27,000, down from $30,000 for the classes of 2006 and 2007.”

    Which is odd, since the average college tuition did not decrease between 2006 and 2010.

    Oh, but these are merely the musings of a right-wing retard. A right-wing retard who really wants to learn to write stellar sentences like this one:

    Check out this College Board paper — there are plenty of strong advantages for a college grad, not just monetary, but many others, too, for either graduating from, or attending, college.

    What’s that you say? The College Board has a paper saying that college is advantageous? Will wonders never cease! And the Beef Council reminded me yesterday that beef is rich in nutrients, too! Didn’t see that coming!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Ooh! Ooh! Let’s all pay close attention to the man (@16) tossing out puerile slurs (“right wing retards”) like a monkey throwing so many feces! Surely he’ll have something intelligent to say!

    Hi, Bob, why don’t you try to impress us right-wing retards (note the hyphen, genius) with actual ideas and intelligence?

    You claim that it’s “wrong” that the true value of a college education is “much lower than its cost”, but then you go on to completely fail to substantiate that claim.

    Instead (and I’m typing this slowly, so you can understand it better), you go on to prove (sort of) that an investment in a college education will generally pay itself off in several years.

    Know what’s missing from that argument? Any proof and/or claim as to what the actual value of a college education is or should be! (Again, let me know if any of these words are too big for you, and I can explic… help you know what the big words mean.)

    You seem to think that the value of a college education is tantamount to the earning power of a recent college graduate. This is, of course, a dubious — and quite likely unexamined — claim, but let’s go with that for now. Quite obviously, then, your claim is that, as the cost of college has rapidly increased over the past couple of decades, the earning power of recent college graduates has kept track over the same period.

    This is, of course, a fascinating claim, one for which I (and all the other retards here) would doubtless welcome any and all evidence you have stored in your ample, ample brain.

    Because, you know, when I used my retard brain to search the Internet, I came across articles like this one that say things like “those who graduated since 2009 are three times more likely to not have found a full-time job than those from the classes of 2006 through 2008,” and “graduates since 2009 have earned an average starting salary of $27,000, down from $30,000 for the classes of 2006 and 2007.”

    Which is odd, since the average college tuition did not decrease between 2006 and 2010.

    Oh, but these are merely the musings of a right-wing retard. A right-wing retard who really wants to learn to write stellar sentences like this one:

    Check out this College Board paper — there are plenty of strong advantages for a college grad, not just monetary, but many others, too, for either graduating from, or attending, college.

    What’s that you say? The College Board has a paper saying that college is advantageous? Will wonders never cease! And the Beef Council reminded me yesterday that beef is rich in nutrients, too! Didn’t see that coming!

  • SKPeterson

    Teasing out the implications or imprecations associated with higher ed outcomes is no simple task. Especially when arguments rely on broad aggregates and/or geographic disparities in wage rates and costs of living. Are sociology majors earning 22% more? Maybe. Probably not in many places. A good mechanic (perhaps a vo tech grad) can earn a sizable annual income. Income is a function of not just education, but also, surprise! occupation. To the extent that disparities between costs and outcomes may be increasing, the focus turns towards justifying, or not, higher ed’s existing model.

  • SKPeterson

    Teasing out the implications or imprecations associated with higher ed outcomes is no simple task. Especially when arguments rely on broad aggregates and/or geographic disparities in wage rates and costs of living. Are sociology majors earning 22% more? Maybe. Probably not in many places. A good mechanic (perhaps a vo tech grad) can earn a sizable annual income. Income is a function of not just education, but also, surprise! occupation. To the extent that disparities between costs and outcomes may be increasing, the focus turns towards justifying, or not, higher ed’s existing model.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Matthew, the problem with for-profit education is not the profit part, nor with all schools trying to achieve that, but with the general scandal that has been coming out that many of these online institutions are admitting people purely on the basis of their being able to get massive federal loans that they often cannot repay because the graduates do not learn very much because the quality of education is so poor.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Matthew, the problem with for-profit education is not the profit part, nor with all schools trying to achieve that, but with the general scandal that has been coming out that many of these online institutions are admitting people purely on the basis of their being able to get massive federal loans that they often cannot repay because the graduates do not learn very much because the quality of education is so poor.

  • Rose

    My sister pointed out that it’s hard to think of anyone from UM as conservative. But UM and UVa are two of a few state-supported schools that have setasides and preferences for out-of-state students.
    When Nancy Cantor left UM to become Chancellor at the University of Illinois, she was shocked that less than 10% of students were out-of-state. She implemented a goal of 20-25% out-of-state similar to Michigan. The Illinois public was outraged and the goal was retracted.
    UM prides itself on being a ‘public ivy’. While many out-of-state students use the gold-plated facilities and small class size,
    Michigan students are crammed into Michigan State.

  • Rose

    My sister pointed out that it’s hard to think of anyone from UM as conservative. But UM and UVa are two of a few state-supported schools that have setasides and preferences for out-of-state students.
    When Nancy Cantor left UM to become Chancellor at the University of Illinois, she was shocked that less than 10% of students were out-of-state. She implemented a goal of 20-25% out-of-state similar to Michigan. The Illinois public was outraged and the goal was retracted.
    UM prides itself on being a ‘public ivy’. While many out-of-state students use the gold-plated facilities and small class size,
    Michigan students are crammed into Michigan State.

  • Joe

    It might have been interesting to have a discussion of the issue, Bob, but I have a rule of not engaging assholes in conversation if I don’t have to.

  • Joe

    It might have been interesting to have a discussion of the issue, Bob, but I have a rule of not engaging assholes in conversation if I don’t have to.

  • SKPeterson

    Dr. Veith @ 19 – Some of the scandal is that the investigations into educational outcomes explicitly excluded public and non-profit schools. So, of course, the for-profit schools got slammed. However, that does not mean that the last part of your statement, particularly “the general scandal that has been coming out that many of these online institutions are admitting people purely on the basis of their being able to get massive federal loans that they often cannot repay because the graduates do not learn very much because the quality of education is so poor” is not applicable to any and all on-line education, for-profit, non-profit or public.

  • SKPeterson

    Dr. Veith @ 19 – Some of the scandal is that the investigations into educational outcomes explicitly excluded public and non-profit schools. So, of course, the for-profit schools got slammed. However, that does not mean that the last part of your statement, particularly “the general scandal that has been coming out that many of these online institutions are admitting people purely on the basis of their being able to get massive federal loans that they often cannot repay because the graduates do not learn very much because the quality of education is so poor” is not applicable to any and all on-line education, for-profit, non-profit or public.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Some of the scandal is that the investigations into educational outcomes explicitly excluded public and non-profit schools. So, of course, the for-profit schools got slammed.

    Excellent point.

    Answers are based on questions. If you aren’t asked any questions, you can’t give any wrong answers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Some of the scandal is that the investigations into educational outcomes explicitly excluded public and non-profit schools. So, of course, the for-profit schools got slammed.

    Excellent point.

    Answers are based on questions. If you aren’t asked any questions, you can’t give any wrong answers.

  • PinonCoffee

    This morning over the coffee pot, my husband and I were debating the proper form of “imago Obamae.” We decided he was a rare first-declension masculine.

    One perk of a classical education is being able to decline President Obama. ;-)

  • PinonCoffee

    This morning over the coffee pot, my husband and I were debating the proper form of “imago Obamae.” We decided he was a rare first-declension masculine.

    One perk of a classical education is being able to decline President Obama. ;-)

  • SKPeterson
  • SKPeterson
  • http://www.222222222.com William Steve Gates Jobs

    UVA must roll with the times. if they shun to offer online courses based upon the defense of maintaining a ‘classical’ approach to education (wth does that mean anyway?), then i’ll just send my kids to james madison. i have a college education from VCU and i work with a girl who graduated from UVA. we are both middle class. both of our degrees were nothing more than a promissory note at 8% interest. a college education is overrated and most university campuses are nothing more than a gathering place for young adults raging with hormones to have multiple opportunities for easy hookups.

  • http://www.222222222.com William Steve Gates Jobs

    UVA must roll with the times. if they shun to offer online courses based upon the defense of maintaining a ‘classical’ approach to education (wth does that mean anyway?), then i’ll just send my kids to james madison. i have a college education from VCU and i work with a girl who graduated from UVA. we are both middle class. both of our degrees were nothing more than a promissory note at 8% interest. a college education is overrated and most university campuses are nothing more than a gathering place for young adults raging with hormones to have multiple opportunities for easy hookups.


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