Sex and the single Christian

My colleague Marvin Olasky is writing pastors for help with a story.  I thought I’d share it with those of you who are pastors in case you could help him and also for our more general discussion:

Dear Pastor,

I’d like your help in developing a story for WORLD.

The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year. The NAE also reports that nearly 1/3 of single evangelicals have been pregnant or made someone pregnant, with nearly 1/3 of those pregnancies ending in abortion.

Some dispute those statistics, but even with lower numbers the situation is grave. The NAE, concerned about abortion, applied for and received a $1 million grant from the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, which promotes contraceptive use by unmarried individuals. (The NAE has helped the National Campaign communicate its message, but the NAE itself does not endorse contraception.)

Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried? If not, how have you and your church promoted a biblical sexual ethic, and how has that worked out? How have you dealt with this question in your sermons, in Sunday school, in discipleship programs, or through church discipline? What effect have abstinence movements, promotion of earlier marriage, or counseling had?

I hope you will give me specific suggestions and stories, withholding specific names (or giving only first names) as you wish. Please email me (molasky@worldmag.com) by Wednesday, July 11.

In His grace,

Marvin Olasky

Editor-in-chief, WORLD

via WORLD Magazine’s Marvin Olasky Appeals to Pastors: We Want Your Help.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    No! Absolutely not!

    For starters, that people do not do the right thing does not mean the right thing should be altered in presentation. That’s playing into the hands of the world, the devil, and our own flesh. It’s sinning on the installment plan when you start questioning a Scriptural ethic based on results.

    People are sinners, and some will inevitably fall into sexual sin. But that does not mean we should start emphasizing contraceptives. When you do that, you’re basically undermining the need for chastity before marriage: a concept clearly taught in Scripture. What you’re essentially doing is softening the sternness of the law when you add the “at least use a contraceptive” clause. You’re giving people (and younger people especially) a sort of “moral loophole” to assuage their consciences.

    That others do not obey Scripture does not mean Scripture is to be jettisoned or watered down. I talked about this on another website where the Wesleyan-Arminian mindset of “it’s all up to us” is starting to permeate even parts of the Lutheran and Reformed movements. We’re getting too obsessed with results, and while we want to see transformed lives, we also need to remember that 1.) people don’t cease being sinners after their conversion, and that 2.) God calls us to faithfulness to His Word regardless of the results. We’re too quick to think that “we need to do something different” when we don’t see the hoped-for results; what we NEED to be doing is stay faithful to the Biblical model given for clergy and laity in preaching law and gospel and living out our theology in our vocation, and remember that God through His Spirit will sovereignly work as needed.

    Faithfulness is our responsibility; results are God’s responsibility.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    No! Absolutely not!

    For starters, that people do not do the right thing does not mean the right thing should be altered in presentation. That’s playing into the hands of the world, the devil, and our own flesh. It’s sinning on the installment plan when you start questioning a Scriptural ethic based on results.

    People are sinners, and some will inevitably fall into sexual sin. But that does not mean we should start emphasizing contraceptives. When you do that, you’re basically undermining the need for chastity before marriage: a concept clearly taught in Scripture. What you’re essentially doing is softening the sternness of the law when you add the “at least use a contraceptive” clause. You’re giving people (and younger people especially) a sort of “moral loophole” to assuage their consciences.

    That others do not obey Scripture does not mean Scripture is to be jettisoned or watered down. I talked about this on another website where the Wesleyan-Arminian mindset of “it’s all up to us” is starting to permeate even parts of the Lutheran and Reformed movements. We’re getting too obsessed with results, and while we want to see transformed lives, we also need to remember that 1.) people don’t cease being sinners after their conversion, and that 2.) God calls us to faithfulness to His Word regardless of the results. We’re too quick to think that “we need to do something different” when we don’t see the hoped-for results; what we NEED to be doing is stay faithful to the Biblical model given for clergy and laity in preaching law and gospel and living out our theology in our vocation, and remember that God through His Spirit will sovereignly work as needed.

    Faithfulness is our responsibility; results are God’s responsibility.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    We never preach the law for betterment. But to kill.

    Preaching the law to try and get people to measure up will only result in pride, or despair. We leave that stuff to the Baptist/Calvinist?non-denoms. .

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    We never preach the law for betterment. But to kill.

    Preaching the law to try and get people to measure up will only result in pride, or despair. We leave that stuff to the Baptist/Calvinist?non-denoms. .

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    In the early church, Christians abstained from those cultural rituals that were founded on or designed to encourage sin. Not because the Bible specifically condemned them, but because good judgment excluded them. We need to exercise the same good judgment regarding our own culture’s rituals.

    The middle-class American coupling system has two basic imperatives: 1) Do not get married until you are established in a career (which itself must follow receipt of both a high school diploma and bachelor’s degree). 2) In the meantime, one should date–spend copious amounts of time alone with members of the opposite sex selected primarily on the basis of physical attraction for the purposes of enjoying romantic feelings and having fun together. Gee, I wonder what kind of fun we’ll have? Christians should not be surprised that adding a third imperative, “don’t have sex until you’re married,” makes little difference in the outcome. No matter how well it’s put or how many purity rings it’s accompanied by, it’s still like saying “run straight at that concrete wall without stopping” and then adding “but don’t hurt yourself (oh, and here’s a helmet just in case)” If it actually works, it’s a fluke. In the same way, sheer willpower is simply no match for the entirety of one’s biology and culture when resisting sexual temptation.

    I’m not suggesting Christians spend more time complaining about sex on TV or condom distribution in school (not that these aren’t legitimate complaints). I’m making the more radical suggestion that Christians need to start questioning the two basic coupling rules of American culture instead of teaching them to their children. With respect to the first rule, the typical rite of K-12->college->career->marriage needs to be rearranged or rethought so that marriage can come earlier. For example, given the increasingly shrinking return on investment provided by higher education, it seems increasingly foolish that it should be allowed to categorically delay marriage. With respect to the second rule, dating has proven to be a very poor method of finding appropriate spouses. Sexual chemistry is great, but it is not the only important feature of a lifelong marriage. It also tends to hide those other features from sight. Other cultures in history have had other coupling methods; perhaps we should begin looking at these and adapting them for our own use.

    The evidence is in; our usual approach has failed. There is therefore no excuse for harming the next generation by perpetuating it. This is no small task, but it is nevertheless the task given to us. The solution Paul provides to sexual temptation is marriage (1 Cor 7:2), so we ought to work to make marriage available to the tempted.

    Here the objections begin to fly among those protestants who misunderstand Sola Scriptura: “The Bible doesn’t tell us how to get married–only that premarital sex is wrong! It’s legalistic to tell young men and women that they shouldn’t date or that they should get married sooner!” It is true enough that the Bible doesn’t provide a flowchart for coupling. Nevertheless, that doesn’t preclude us using our Biblically-informed brains to provide assistance for navigating this part of life. Such navigation is what culture and tradition are for in the first place–they are tools to help us live life well. Christians know (or at least should know) that living well entails living chastely and decently. If our customs have become a hindrance to this end, then parents are morally obligated to reject them and attempt to provide better customs for their children. Stubborn insistence on disproven methodology is pure foolishness–something that is explicitly condemned in Scripture (see, for example, pretty much the entire book of Proverbs).

    There are any number of ways to appropriately couple. Nevertheless, an infinitude of appropriate ways does not imply that no inappropriate ways exist. Identifying and rejecting such ways is not legalism; it is wisdom–something I encourage Christian parents to both pray for and practice.

    [Mostly reposted from my blog]

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    In the early church, Christians abstained from those cultural rituals that were founded on or designed to encourage sin. Not because the Bible specifically condemned them, but because good judgment excluded them. We need to exercise the same good judgment regarding our own culture’s rituals.

    The middle-class American coupling system has two basic imperatives: 1) Do not get married until you are established in a career (which itself must follow receipt of both a high school diploma and bachelor’s degree). 2) In the meantime, one should date–spend copious amounts of time alone with members of the opposite sex selected primarily on the basis of physical attraction for the purposes of enjoying romantic feelings and having fun together. Gee, I wonder what kind of fun we’ll have? Christians should not be surprised that adding a third imperative, “don’t have sex until you’re married,” makes little difference in the outcome. No matter how well it’s put or how many purity rings it’s accompanied by, it’s still like saying “run straight at that concrete wall without stopping” and then adding “but don’t hurt yourself (oh, and here’s a helmet just in case)” If it actually works, it’s a fluke. In the same way, sheer willpower is simply no match for the entirety of one’s biology and culture when resisting sexual temptation.

    I’m not suggesting Christians spend more time complaining about sex on TV or condom distribution in school (not that these aren’t legitimate complaints). I’m making the more radical suggestion that Christians need to start questioning the two basic coupling rules of American culture instead of teaching them to their children. With respect to the first rule, the typical rite of K-12->college->career->marriage needs to be rearranged or rethought so that marriage can come earlier. For example, given the increasingly shrinking return on investment provided by higher education, it seems increasingly foolish that it should be allowed to categorically delay marriage. With respect to the second rule, dating has proven to be a very poor method of finding appropriate spouses. Sexual chemistry is great, but it is not the only important feature of a lifelong marriage. It also tends to hide those other features from sight. Other cultures in history have had other coupling methods; perhaps we should begin looking at these and adapting them for our own use.

    The evidence is in; our usual approach has failed. There is therefore no excuse for harming the next generation by perpetuating it. This is no small task, but it is nevertheless the task given to us. The solution Paul provides to sexual temptation is marriage (1 Cor 7:2), so we ought to work to make marriage available to the tempted.

    Here the objections begin to fly among those protestants who misunderstand Sola Scriptura: “The Bible doesn’t tell us how to get married–only that premarital sex is wrong! It’s legalistic to tell young men and women that they shouldn’t date or that they should get married sooner!” It is true enough that the Bible doesn’t provide a flowchart for coupling. Nevertheless, that doesn’t preclude us using our Biblically-informed brains to provide assistance for navigating this part of life. Such navigation is what culture and tradition are for in the first place–they are tools to help us live life well. Christians know (or at least should know) that living well entails living chastely and decently. If our customs have become a hindrance to this end, then parents are morally obligated to reject them and attempt to provide better customs for their children. Stubborn insistence on disproven methodology is pure foolishness–something that is explicitly condemned in Scripture (see, for example, pretty much the entire book of Proverbs).

    There are any number of ways to appropriately couple. Nevertheless, an infinitude of appropriate ways does not imply that no inappropriate ways exist. Identifying and rejecting such ways is not legalism; it is wisdom–something I encourage Christian parents to both pray for and practice.

    [Mostly reposted from my blog]

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Steve Martin @ 2,

    Maybe we should just preach the law without trying to game the system and get a particular result. It’s wrong when evangelicals do it to manipulate people into general morality. It’s wrong when Lutherans do it to manipulate people into specific morality (avoiding pride & despair). Let’s just preach the whole counsel of God and let the Holy Spirit decide which results He’ll bring out of it.

  • http://www.matthewcochran.net/blog Matt Cochran

    Steve Martin @ 2,

    Maybe we should just preach the law without trying to game the system and get a particular result. It’s wrong when evangelicals do it to manipulate people into general morality. It’s wrong when Lutherans do it to manipulate people into specific morality (avoiding pride & despair). Let’s just preach the whole counsel of God and let the Holy Spirit decide which results He’ll bring out of it.

  • sandi

    I can’t help but thinking that this is a direct connection between the parents and leaders within the church who in their youth fell prey to this problem and now are unable to encourage their youth to resist. It would seem that little by little as the church white washes certain cultural issues, that sin is marginalized .

  • sandi

    I can’t help but thinking that this is a direct connection between the parents and leaders within the church who in their youth fell prey to this problem and now are unable to encourage their youth to resist. It would seem that little by little as the church white washes certain cultural issues, that sin is marginalized .

  • kerner

    Matt @3: +1

    If I may add one more prerequisite for 21st Century American marriage (which I believe should be included under your first basic imperative). You need to have $10k or more available for a narcissism-fest of a ceremony and reception, not to mention the 1-2 years necessary to plan and organize it.

  • kerner

    Matt @3: +1

    If I may add one more prerequisite for 21st Century American marriage (which I believe should be included under your first basic imperative). You need to have $10k or more available for a narcissism-fest of a ceremony and reception, not to mention the 1-2 years necessary to plan and organize it.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Steve; maybe you’d better elaborate on that. Specifically, if preaching the law is tantamount to killing, please explain what the apostle Paul is doing in 1 Corinthians 6.

    More directly to the point, I would have to guess that one of the culprits for this data would be that we do not do a good job of comprehensively teaching the Scriptures. Steve is exactly right if he would note that if 1 Corinthians 6 and other passages dealing with sexuality are taught just as morality, then that is simply death to the hearers.

    On the flip side, if it’s taught in its context–marriage and family as a picture of God’s love for His people–I think you’d get through to a lot more people.

    A secondary factor that Kerner hints at is the institutional obstacles to marriage. $10k is now really cheap for a wedding, but our grandparents made do with a little wedding with cake and ice cream–probably less than a grand. And then we’ve got government penalizing people for getting married in the tax code and elsewhere, too. So how dumb is that?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Steve; maybe you’d better elaborate on that. Specifically, if preaching the law is tantamount to killing, please explain what the apostle Paul is doing in 1 Corinthians 6.

    More directly to the point, I would have to guess that one of the culprits for this data would be that we do not do a good job of comprehensively teaching the Scriptures. Steve is exactly right if he would note that if 1 Corinthians 6 and other passages dealing with sexuality are taught just as morality, then that is simply death to the hearers.

    On the flip side, if it’s taught in its context–marriage and family as a picture of God’s love for His people–I think you’d get through to a lot more people.

    A secondary factor that Kerner hints at is the institutional obstacles to marriage. $10k is now really cheap for a wedding, but our grandparents made do with a little wedding with cake and ice cream–probably less than a grand. And then we’ve got government penalizing people for getting married in the tax code and elsewhere, too. So how dumb is that?

  • Isaac

    As a single adult who has abstained from sex, I feel a personal stake in this discussion. However, I don’t think I have any answers. I see a lot of conversations about this, but I’ve not observed any real answer anywhere in the debate. There’s a lot of people talking about these young adults, or talking down to these young adults, but very few relating to and having conversations with them.

    Part of this is because the people under discussion aren’t homogenous. There are the sexually active and for the minority who aren’t. There are those who struggle with their desires and those who aren’t convinced it’s a sin in the first place. We need answers for all of them, and from out here in the cold I don’t see much in the way of either law or gospel being offered to any of them.

    Most churches don’t seem to know what to do with adults who are still single; they seem to assume that people who aren’t married are teenagers or aberrations, despite the average age of marriage in the US being past 28 (for men). A sizable number of young adults are forced to return and live with their parents post college, but I have yet to see much reflection of this other than hand-wringing.

    And while I certainly agree that the dating process is fraught with potential issues, I’ve not seen any workable alternative proposed. I’ve been exposed to the courtship culture, for example, and if anything it’s worse than dating; the legalistic steps, insular and isolated communities, and so forth are potentially just as dangerous. I’ve seen families destroyed by it, and I’m skeptical that the answer is more law.

    Of course, it’s not like the supposedly married adults are doing much better on this front. Leaving aside the divorce rate, There’s an epidemic of seniors living together unmarried because they’re afraid of losing their benefits. But you don’t hear a lot of sermons about that.

  • Isaac

    As a single adult who has abstained from sex, I feel a personal stake in this discussion. However, I don’t think I have any answers. I see a lot of conversations about this, but I’ve not observed any real answer anywhere in the debate. There’s a lot of people talking about these young adults, or talking down to these young adults, but very few relating to and having conversations with them.

    Part of this is because the people under discussion aren’t homogenous. There are the sexually active and for the minority who aren’t. There are those who struggle with their desires and those who aren’t convinced it’s a sin in the first place. We need answers for all of them, and from out here in the cold I don’t see much in the way of either law or gospel being offered to any of them.

    Most churches don’t seem to know what to do with adults who are still single; they seem to assume that people who aren’t married are teenagers or aberrations, despite the average age of marriage in the US being past 28 (for men). A sizable number of young adults are forced to return and live with their parents post college, but I have yet to see much reflection of this other than hand-wringing.

    And while I certainly agree that the dating process is fraught with potential issues, I’ve not seen any workable alternative proposed. I’ve been exposed to the courtship culture, for example, and if anything it’s worse than dating; the legalistic steps, insular and isolated communities, and so forth are potentially just as dangerous. I’ve seen families destroyed by it, and I’m skeptical that the answer is more law.

    Of course, it’s not like the supposedly married adults are doing much better on this front. Leaving aside the divorce rate, There’s an epidemic of seniors living together unmarried because they’re afraid of losing their benefits. But you don’t hear a lot of sermons about that.

  • Rev. Paul L. Beisel

    Here is the problem with Teen Pregnancy Prevention programs: The problem is not pregnancy, but teenage/unmarried sex. Pregnancy is what is supposed to happen when two people have sex. That is the natural consequence of such a union. Pregnancy is a good thing. Sex apart from marriage is not. We should not be encouraging young, unmarried people to have sex without the “consequence” of pregnancy. Instead, we should be encouraging them to practice self-restraint, and hold up marriage as the ideal.

  • Rev. Paul L. Beisel

    Here is the problem with Teen Pregnancy Prevention programs: The problem is not pregnancy, but teenage/unmarried sex. Pregnancy is what is supposed to happen when two people have sex. That is the natural consequence of such a union. Pregnancy is a good thing. Sex apart from marriage is not. We should not be encouraging young, unmarried people to have sex without the “consequence” of pregnancy. Instead, we should be encouraging them to practice self-restraint, and hold up marriage as the ideal.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Another marriage killer is expecting people to marry those close to their own age. The idea that you meet someone in college is a very poor arrangement. Men in college aren’t ready to get married because they don’t have a job. Duh.

    Anyway, church bodies really do very little to assist people in their congregations and wider fellowship to meet appropriate Christian spouses. There should be fellowship events/socials for young adult church members that are open to women 18 and up and men 22 and up. That way young men starting out in life at least have a chance to meet a nice unused Christian woman. And the young women have a chance to meet men who are very likely employed and ready to marry.

    Coed high school and college are pretty stupid arrangements because they pair up largely incompatible groups of young men and young women.

    One very nice young man I know who graduated from a Concordia University and worked a couple years decided to go to graduate school on some kind of work study arrangement at a gimongous huge state university. And voila, he met an nice young undergrad. He was never going to meet someone at work or his little LCMS church.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Another marriage killer is expecting people to marry those close to their own age. The idea that you meet someone in college is a very poor arrangement. Men in college aren’t ready to get married because they don’t have a job. Duh.

    Anyway, church bodies really do very little to assist people in their congregations and wider fellowship to meet appropriate Christian spouses. There should be fellowship events/socials for young adult church members that are open to women 18 and up and men 22 and up. That way young men starting out in life at least have a chance to meet a nice unused Christian woman. And the young women have a chance to meet men who are very likely employed and ready to marry.

    Coed high school and college are pretty stupid arrangements because they pair up largely incompatible groups of young men and young women.

    One very nice young man I know who graduated from a Concordia University and worked a couple years decided to go to graduate school on some kind of work study arrangement at a gimongous huge state university. And voila, he met an nice young undergrad. He was never going to meet someone at work or his little LCMS church.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Instead, we should be encouraging them to practice self-restraint, and hold up marriage as the ideal.”

    The problem with that is that we insist that everything else come first and marriage last. We make marriage the lowest priority and adopt the secular wisdom that young people are not “ready” for marriage until 10 to 15 years after sexual maturity. Expecting people to wait 5 years is within reason for most people. Expecting them to exercise restraint through all of their most fertile years and marry years later is absurd and frankly, depraved.

    As for the obvious implication of women marrying at age 18 instead of 25, secular reasoning says that women aren’t “equal” unless they do what men do. If they really believed women were equal, they would consider young married women with children just as “equal” to men as career single gals who are “sexually liberated” and have non-marital sterile sex. Except they don’t believe that women are equal unless they do x, y, and z.

    The problem is that these issues of social status never enter the discussions, so young people are just left floundering. People are highly status driven hence the mania for college credentials while actual useful knowledge is optional.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Instead, we should be encouraging them to practice self-restraint, and hold up marriage as the ideal.”

    The problem with that is that we insist that everything else come first and marriage last. We make marriage the lowest priority and adopt the secular wisdom that young people are not “ready” for marriage until 10 to 15 years after sexual maturity. Expecting people to wait 5 years is within reason for most people. Expecting them to exercise restraint through all of their most fertile years and marry years later is absurd and frankly, depraved.

    As for the obvious implication of women marrying at age 18 instead of 25, secular reasoning says that women aren’t “equal” unless they do what men do. If they really believed women were equal, they would consider young married women with children just as “equal” to men as career single gals who are “sexually liberated” and have non-marital sterile sex. Except they don’t believe that women are equal unless they do x, y, and z.

    The problem is that these issues of social status never enter the discussions, so young people are just left floundering. People are highly status driven hence the mania for college credentials while actual useful knowledge is optional.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you can’t avoid sin, at least you can hide it!

    Promoting Hypocrisy 101

    First topic covered:

    Contraception for unmarried Christians

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you can’t avoid sin, at least you can hide it!

    Promoting Hypocrisy 101

    First topic covered:

    Contraception for unmarried Christians

  • Stephen

    sg -

    Ha! Whaddaya know. I pretty much agree with you, especially about the co ed situation and how unfit most “men” in their early 20s are for marriage. I would much rather see my daughter one day go to a women’s college. For one thing, she’s likely be more safe there. And she is going to be about ten times smarter than boys her age, so if she marries a man ten or even 15 years older I might not mind too much. It would make a lot of sense.

    I wasn’t ready to marry until I was 30, and even then maybe not so much. But that was on a maturity level more than any other factor. The unfortunate fact of our time is that, economically, one is hobbled significantly if they choose to have a family and not have the mother work. And the other part of that which you allude to is that girls are being trained to think in terms of college and career first. I don’t think feminism is the only thing driving that though. I think parents see it as an economic necessity driven by a dog eat dog economy and the entire American ethos of what success looks like. No one wants their kid to grow up to be a pariah. They want them to be happy and have friends and well, this is what everyone is doing. It takes a great deal of support to buck trends like that. Anyone who does not yet have a smart phone or a Facebook page can tell you about being left out of the social world.

    So what you have are people in their twenties and early thirties burning up with physical needs and too wrapped up in careers to shift to a completely different dynamic of family and kids. If I hear it right, this is somewhat the thing Issac is talking about. I wish I knew the answer. I do think, however, that the church, like our society, is way too obsessed with the bedroom and people’s sex lives. Maybe the church does not need to have perfect answers. Maybe it should be to say what is what and let it be. Maybe that’s too passive, but evidently all the moralizing of evangelicals isn’t working.

  • Stephen

    sg -

    Ha! Whaddaya know. I pretty much agree with you, especially about the co ed situation and how unfit most “men” in their early 20s are for marriage. I would much rather see my daughter one day go to a women’s college. For one thing, she’s likely be more safe there. And she is going to be about ten times smarter than boys her age, so if she marries a man ten or even 15 years older I might not mind too much. It would make a lot of sense.

    I wasn’t ready to marry until I was 30, and even then maybe not so much. But that was on a maturity level more than any other factor. The unfortunate fact of our time is that, economically, one is hobbled significantly if they choose to have a family and not have the mother work. And the other part of that which you allude to is that girls are being trained to think in terms of college and career first. I don’t think feminism is the only thing driving that though. I think parents see it as an economic necessity driven by a dog eat dog economy and the entire American ethos of what success looks like. No one wants their kid to grow up to be a pariah. They want them to be happy and have friends and well, this is what everyone is doing. It takes a great deal of support to buck trends like that. Anyone who does not yet have a smart phone or a Facebook page can tell you about being left out of the social world.

    So what you have are people in their twenties and early thirties burning up with physical needs and too wrapped up in careers to shift to a completely different dynamic of family and kids. If I hear it right, this is somewhat the thing Issac is talking about. I wish I knew the answer. I do think, however, that the church, like our society, is way too obsessed with the bedroom and people’s sex lives. Maybe the church does not need to have perfect answers. Maybe it should be to say what is what and let it be. Maybe that’s too passive, but evidently all the moralizing of evangelicals isn’t working.

  • Steve P.

    I was a single man between 18 and 29 during, precisely, the 1980s. My closest friends were Lutherans, Catholics, and Evangelicals. Most of my closest unmarried friends at the time were virgins or at least were not habitually sexually active (could not have accurately said “had sex in the previous year” most years).

    Most of those of my friends who were sexually active were people who I would have described as “nominally” Christian. Few if any of them would have been described by me as “evangelical” since at the time “nominally evangelical” would have seemed to the evangelicals I knew to be an oxymoron. As far as I know or remember, “evangelical” unmarried adults during the 1980s were mostly not sexually active after their “born again” experience (unless they were dishonest hypocrites on the subject, a possibility which I do not discount).

    Because of all that, statistics like the above still surprise me. I’m getting less surprised as I hear more of them, but I still don’t know what the problem is with my assumptions and experience.

    I do think of “evangelical” as something that an evangelical would stop calling himself when his life became disordered, that such a person would abandon his (specifically) evangelical faith (perhaps to become a Lutheran, Catholic, or “Mainstream Protestant” or perhaps to abandon Christianity itself) as he failed to live up to his moral beliefs. Am I, even though I am from an “evangelical” background, misunderstanding what the term usually means to those who apply it to themselves? I’m pretty sure I do understand very well that at least for the sorts of people I thought of as evangelicals, it would not have been possible for them to continue to believe they were “born again evangelical” Christians if their behavior didn’t reflect that. They would have changed their beliefs to something that could account for their behavior (either abandoning religion altogether or becoming Lutheran or Catholic) or would have despaired of their own regeneration and presumably pretty much shut up about religion. In fact I think I do know desperate evangelicals, but I’m not sure since they don’t talk about religion.

    Is my assumption about what “evangelical” means completely wrong? This is possible but I feel certain that when I was growing up it meant something like what I think it means to at least a very substantial and significant group of evangelicals.

    Are my assumptions wrong because my friends lied to me? Did they pretend not to be sexually active though they really were? When I try to “step outside of myself” and be completely objective this seems like the most likely explanation, though I cannot for long be so objectively negative about people I think I know well.

    Is there something about the people I knew that made them different than the norm? Of course pretty large percentage of the unmarried people I knew were sexually active, but the people who called themselves “evangelicals” weren’t or pretended not to be and the committed religiously observant Lutherans and Catholics I knew mostly weren’t or pretended not to be. Did I by sheer coincidence have friends who confirmed the the assumption (that committed observant Christians behave differently than non-committed non-observant Christians). That’s surely possible and I suppose not extraordinarily unlikely but if many Christians seemed to have the same experience I had that would begin to seem very unlikely.

    Has people’s sexual behavior changed substantially in the last 30 years? This seems very doubtful to me because I don’t think behavior does statistically change in that way. Of course if society changed by abandoning effective strong constraints against illicit sex that could cause sexual behavior to change but that has not happened. If anything people were more free to sin in the 1980s than they are now.

    Has evangelicalism changed into something quite different than it was in the 1980s, something that preaches a different morality than it used to or something people don’t stop actively and enthusiastically practicing when they find they cannot live up in any way to the morality it endorses? (avoiding literal concrete lying, stealing, murder, blasphemy, fornication if not always ways that a man commits these sins privately “in his heart”). I don’t “keep up” so I really don’t know. Even more mainstream forms of Christianity, unless they’ve simply adopted modernism, at least would cause an internal tension for the habitual serious sinner. “Sure, God forgives me but if I have a very active prayer life and trying to actively love my neighbor, am going to church every week, etc. shouldn’t I be making at least some small degree of moral progress?” I would think to myself (in fact I have thought that :-)

    Am I just sheltered?

  • Steve P.

    I was a single man between 18 and 29 during, precisely, the 1980s. My closest friends were Lutherans, Catholics, and Evangelicals. Most of my closest unmarried friends at the time were virgins or at least were not habitually sexually active (could not have accurately said “had sex in the previous year” most years).

    Most of those of my friends who were sexually active were people who I would have described as “nominally” Christian. Few if any of them would have been described by me as “evangelical” since at the time “nominally evangelical” would have seemed to the evangelicals I knew to be an oxymoron. As far as I know or remember, “evangelical” unmarried adults during the 1980s were mostly not sexually active after their “born again” experience (unless they were dishonest hypocrites on the subject, a possibility which I do not discount).

    Because of all that, statistics like the above still surprise me. I’m getting less surprised as I hear more of them, but I still don’t know what the problem is with my assumptions and experience.

    I do think of “evangelical” as something that an evangelical would stop calling himself when his life became disordered, that such a person would abandon his (specifically) evangelical faith (perhaps to become a Lutheran, Catholic, or “Mainstream Protestant” or perhaps to abandon Christianity itself) as he failed to live up to his moral beliefs. Am I, even though I am from an “evangelical” background, misunderstanding what the term usually means to those who apply it to themselves? I’m pretty sure I do understand very well that at least for the sorts of people I thought of as evangelicals, it would not have been possible for them to continue to believe they were “born again evangelical” Christians if their behavior didn’t reflect that. They would have changed their beliefs to something that could account for their behavior (either abandoning religion altogether or becoming Lutheran or Catholic) or would have despaired of their own regeneration and presumably pretty much shut up about religion. In fact I think I do know desperate evangelicals, but I’m not sure since they don’t talk about religion.

    Is my assumption about what “evangelical” means completely wrong? This is possible but I feel certain that when I was growing up it meant something like what I think it means to at least a very substantial and significant group of evangelicals.

    Are my assumptions wrong because my friends lied to me? Did they pretend not to be sexually active though they really were? When I try to “step outside of myself” and be completely objective this seems like the most likely explanation, though I cannot for long be so objectively negative about people I think I know well.

    Is there something about the people I knew that made them different than the norm? Of course pretty large percentage of the unmarried people I knew were sexually active, but the people who called themselves “evangelicals” weren’t or pretended not to be and the committed religiously observant Lutherans and Catholics I knew mostly weren’t or pretended not to be. Did I by sheer coincidence have friends who confirmed the the assumption (that committed observant Christians behave differently than non-committed non-observant Christians). That’s surely possible and I suppose not extraordinarily unlikely but if many Christians seemed to have the same experience I had that would begin to seem very unlikely.

    Has people’s sexual behavior changed substantially in the last 30 years? This seems very doubtful to me because I don’t think behavior does statistically change in that way. Of course if society changed by abandoning effective strong constraints against illicit sex that could cause sexual behavior to change but that has not happened. If anything people were more free to sin in the 1980s than they are now.

    Has evangelicalism changed into something quite different than it was in the 1980s, something that preaches a different morality than it used to or something people don’t stop actively and enthusiastically practicing when they find they cannot live up in any way to the morality it endorses? (avoiding literal concrete lying, stealing, murder, blasphemy, fornication if not always ways that a man commits these sins privately “in his heart”). I don’t “keep up” so I really don’t know. Even more mainstream forms of Christianity, unless they’ve simply adopted modernism, at least would cause an internal tension for the habitual serious sinner. “Sure, God forgives me but if I have a very active prayer life and trying to actively love my neighbor, am going to church every week, etc. shouldn’t I be making at least some small degree of moral progress?” I would think to myself (in fact I have thought that :-)

    Am I just sheltered?

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Steve P: (#14) having married in 1996, and having listened to my wife’s accounts of the behavior of other couples with whom she was familiar, I believe that at least in the 1990s, it was common for a groom to “take his bride for a test drive” prior to the wedding, at least among those I knew. This occurred among couples where I would not have guessed such things were happening.

    That said, there is a small amount of moral progress here; I believe that the virginity rate overall is about 10% among young single adults, so at least twice as many supposed believers have retained the flower of their youth. Still not good, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    Steve P: (#14) having married in 1996, and having listened to my wife’s accounts of the behavior of other couples with whom she was familiar, I believe that at least in the 1990s, it was common for a groom to “take his bride for a test drive” prior to the wedding, at least among those I knew. This occurred among couples where I would not have guessed such things were happening.

    That said, there is a small amount of moral progress here; I believe that the virginity rate overall is about 10% among young single adults, so at least twice as many supposed believers have retained the flower of their youth. Still not good, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

  • Steve P.

    Isaac,

    You are a single adult who has abstained from sex. For many years (until I was married) I was also a single adult who had abstained from sex. I never felt that I was weird or unusual during that time. I most certainly was in the minority but I always perceived it to be a significant and not unusual minority. I had lots of friends who were committed active Christians and who abstained, or at least more or less consistently abstained most of the time and whose lapses were unusual for them.

    What about you? Do you feel very unique or do you feel like you are part of a significant subculture where what you are doing (not doing?) is normal?

    The abortion statistic is by far the most troubling thing for me. That is literal murder. No matter how badly messed up their parents are, babies should not have to suffer the consequences in that way. How many of these evangelical girls who get abortions do so because they would rather kill their own children than be exposed as hypocrites. If that’s really what’s going on, I almost feel that anything you can do to prevent it is justified, even telling the girls that Jesus demands that they have DO have active sexual lives AND brag about it to their parents, pastors, and everyone they know just DON’T KILL YOUR BABY.

  • Steve P.

    Isaac,

    You are a single adult who has abstained from sex. For many years (until I was married) I was also a single adult who had abstained from sex. I never felt that I was weird or unusual during that time. I most certainly was in the minority but I always perceived it to be a significant and not unusual minority. I had lots of friends who were committed active Christians and who abstained, or at least more or less consistently abstained most of the time and whose lapses were unusual for them.

    What about you? Do you feel very unique or do you feel like you are part of a significant subculture where what you are doing (not doing?) is normal?

    The abortion statistic is by far the most troubling thing for me. That is literal murder. No matter how badly messed up their parents are, babies should not have to suffer the consequences in that way. How many of these evangelical girls who get abortions do so because they would rather kill their own children than be exposed as hypocrites. If that’s really what’s going on, I almost feel that anything you can do to prevent it is justified, even telling the girls that Jesus demands that they have DO have active sexual lives AND brag about it to their parents, pastors, and everyone they know just DON’T KILL YOUR BABY.

  • Steve P.

    Bubba:

    “At least in the 1990s, it was common for a groom to “take his bride for a test drive” prior to the wedding, at least among those I knew. This occurred among couples where I would not have guessed such things were happening.”

    I would guess that is the answer to my question, that some of my friends in the 1980s behaved the same way, but claimed not to.

  • Steve P.

    Bubba:

    “At least in the 1990s, it was common for a groom to “take his bride for a test drive” prior to the wedding, at least among those I knew. This occurred among couples where I would not have guessed such things were happening.”

    I would guess that is the answer to my question, that some of my friends in the 1980s behaved the same way, but claimed not to.

  • Steve P.

    Bubba:

    “I believe that the virginity rate overall is about 10% among young single adults, so at least twice as many supposed believers have retained the flower of their youth. Still not good, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.”

    For sure that’s a huge difference. And more importantly believers know they are forgiven and redeemed. We are all sinners and I don’t want to minimize that at all.

    I’m just surprised is all.

  • Steve P.

    Bubba:

    “I believe that the virginity rate overall is about 10% among young single adults, so at least twice as many supposed believers have retained the flower of their youth. Still not good, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.”

    For sure that’s a huge difference. And more importantly believers know they are forgiven and redeemed. We are all sinners and I don’t want to minimize that at all.

    I’m just surprised is all.

  • Dust

    Steve Martin @ 2….kill what? Then what?

    cheers!

  • Dust

    Steve Martin @ 2….kill what? Then what?

    cheers!

  • http://www.barbraveling.com Barb

    Saying we should recommend contraceptives for unmarried Christians, is like saying we should recommend lawyers for people who have a tendency to steal.

    It’s preparing for the sin as if you were already planning to commit it.

    Far better to recommend Bible verses and renewing of the mind strategies they can use to fight the temptation to sin.

    Here’s another interesting thing – God often provides consequences for our sin for the purpose of drawing us back to Him again. Pregnancy is the logical consequence of sex outside of marriage.

    And while all children are a delightful blessing, getting pregnant outside of marriage is a trial that offers numerous opportunities for character growth.

    If life is all about having a great life and avoiding trials and pain, then the church should definitely recommend contraceptives for single Christians.

    If life is all about loving God with all our hearts, souls, and minds, then the church shouldn’t do anything to make it easier for people to sin against Him.

  • http://www.barbraveling.com Barb

    Saying we should recommend contraceptives for unmarried Christians, is like saying we should recommend lawyers for people who have a tendency to steal.

    It’s preparing for the sin as if you were already planning to commit it.

    Far better to recommend Bible verses and renewing of the mind strategies they can use to fight the temptation to sin.

    Here’s another interesting thing – God often provides consequences for our sin for the purpose of drawing us back to Him again. Pregnancy is the logical consequence of sex outside of marriage.

    And while all children are a delightful blessing, getting pregnant outside of marriage is a trial that offers numerous opportunities for character growth.

    If life is all about having a great life and avoiding trials and pain, then the church should definitely recommend contraceptives for single Christians.

    If life is all about loving God with all our hearts, souls, and minds, then the church shouldn’t do anything to make it easier for people to sin against Him.

  • Steve P.

    Going back to the assumption that women get married soon after high school and men around age 23 would only solve half the problem. We would no longer be telling girls to wait 10 years or more but we would still be telling boys to do that. That naturally creates or reinforces what is called “a double standard”: Misbehavior by girls is strongly condemned, misbehavior by boys is winked at. The double standard is almost inevitable to some degree, since it partly arises from biological differences between the sexes, but it assuredly is irrational and wrong.

  • Steve P.

    Going back to the assumption that women get married soon after high school and men around age 23 would only solve half the problem. We would no longer be telling girls to wait 10 years or more but we would still be telling boys to do that. That naturally creates or reinforces what is called “a double standard”: Misbehavior by girls is strongly condemned, misbehavior by boys is winked at. The double standard is almost inevitable to some degree, since it partly arises from biological differences between the sexes, but it assuredly is irrational and wrong.

  • Stephen

    Steve P. @ 21

    Yes, that is a problem. One thing missing for young men is more older males beyond dad in their life who are really involved with them. When young men get out in the world after college they find more confused young men and maybe a few successful older men they want to emulate. But it’s a complete roll of the dice as to where those older men get their values – usually men’s magazines that tell them how to dress and how to woo women into bed.

  • Stephen

    Steve P. @ 21

    Yes, that is a problem. One thing missing for young men is more older males beyond dad in their life who are really involved with them. When young men get out in the world after college they find more confused young men and maybe a few successful older men they want to emulate. But it’s a complete roll of the dice as to where those older men get their values – usually men’s magazines that tell them how to dress and how to woo women into bed.

  • AJ

    Birth control pill inventor laments demographic ‘Catastrophe’

    Vienna, Austria, Jan 11, 2009 / 02:10 am (CNA).- The chemist who made a key discovery leading to the invention of the birth control pill has written a commentary calling demographic decline in Europe a “horror scenario” and a “catastrophe” brought on in part by the pill’s invention.

    Mr. Carl Djerassi, now 85 years old, was one of three researchers whose formulation of the synthetic progestagen Norethisterone marked a key step in the creation of the first oral contraceptive pill, the Guardian reports.

    In a personal commentary in the Austrian newspaper Der Standard, Djerassi said his invention is partly to blame for demographic imbalance in Europe. On the continent, he argued, there is now “no connection at all between sexuality and reproduction.”

    “This divide in Catholic Austria, a country which has on average 1.4 children per family, is now complete,” he wrote.

    Djerassi described families who had decided against reproduction as “wanting to enjoy their schnitzels while leaving the rest of the world to get on with it.”

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/birth_control_pill_inventor_laments_demographic_catastrophe/ (January 11, 2009)
    _____________________________________

    Posted on June 1, 2011 by SBrinkmann

    By Susan Brinkmann, OCDS
    Staff Journalist

    Professor Carl Djerassi, the 86 year-old Austrian-born chemist who is credited with inventing the birth control pill, says women of the future will resort to having their eggs withdrawn and frozen for future use, then undergo sterilization to eliminate the need for contraception.

    “Sooner or later, in the next 20 years, more young people will freeze their eggs and gametes in their 20s, and bank them for later use. They will do away with the need for contraception by being sterilized, and withdraw their eggs and sperm from the bank when they are ready to have a child via IVF.”

    http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=8185 (June 1, 2011)

    _____________________________________

    Now that there is apparently “no connection at all between sexuality and reproduction” thanks to Sanger, Djerassi, Planned Parenthood and the National Campaign to Prevent Pregnancy, with whom should the NAE instead partner to ensure the single Christian’s purity, protection and peace in this sex-soaked world?

  • AJ

    Birth control pill inventor laments demographic ‘Catastrophe’

    Vienna, Austria, Jan 11, 2009 / 02:10 am (CNA).- The chemist who made a key discovery leading to the invention of the birth control pill has written a commentary calling demographic decline in Europe a “horror scenario” and a “catastrophe” brought on in part by the pill’s invention.

    Mr. Carl Djerassi, now 85 years old, was one of three researchers whose formulation of the synthetic progestagen Norethisterone marked a key step in the creation of the first oral contraceptive pill, the Guardian reports.

    In a personal commentary in the Austrian newspaper Der Standard, Djerassi said his invention is partly to blame for demographic imbalance in Europe. On the continent, he argued, there is now “no connection at all between sexuality and reproduction.”

    “This divide in Catholic Austria, a country which has on average 1.4 children per family, is now complete,” he wrote.

    Djerassi described families who had decided against reproduction as “wanting to enjoy their schnitzels while leaving the rest of the world to get on with it.”

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/birth_control_pill_inventor_laments_demographic_catastrophe/ (January 11, 2009)
    _____________________________________

    Posted on June 1, 2011 by SBrinkmann

    By Susan Brinkmann, OCDS
    Staff Journalist

    Professor Carl Djerassi, the 86 year-old Austrian-born chemist who is credited with inventing the birth control pill, says women of the future will resort to having their eggs withdrawn and frozen for future use, then undergo sterilization to eliminate the need for contraception.

    “Sooner or later, in the next 20 years, more young people will freeze their eggs and gametes in their 20s, and bank them for later use. They will do away with the need for contraception by being sterilized, and withdraw their eggs and sperm from the bank when they are ready to have a child via IVF.”

    http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=8185 (June 1, 2011)

    _____________________________________

    Now that there is apparently “no connection at all between sexuality and reproduction” thanks to Sanger, Djerassi, Planned Parenthood and the National Campaign to Prevent Pregnancy, with whom should the NAE instead partner to ensure the single Christian’s purity, protection and peace in this sex-soaked world?

  • http://www.holycrossbismarck.org Matt Thompson

    I agree that the American system of postponing marriage leads our young people into temptation. Luther’s teaching on the 6th Commandment in his Large Catechism would support the argument that we need to help our young people to marry sooner, not later:

    “Therefore it is the duty of parents and the government to see to it that our youth be brought up to discipline and respectability, and when they have come to years of maturity, to to have them married in the fear of God and honorably; He would not fail to add His blessing and grace, so that men would have joy and happiness from the same.”

  • http://www.holycrossbismarck.org Matt Thompson

    I agree that the American system of postponing marriage leads our young people into temptation. Luther’s teaching on the 6th Commandment in his Large Catechism would support the argument that we need to help our young people to marry sooner, not later:

    “Therefore it is the duty of parents and the government to see to it that our youth be brought up to discipline and respectability, and when they have come to years of maturity, to to have them married in the fear of God and honorably; He would not fail to add His blessing and grace, so that men would have joy and happiness from the same.”

  • Grace

    Young people falling into a trap of sexual activity before marriage isn’t new, it’s an old problem – even within strong Christian conservative denominations. Young people who became pregnant, married – very quickly . They had no choice, parents made sure their misdeed was corrected by a wedding.

    What we witness today is different, young adults, and those who aren’t young, aren’t embarrassed because they have sex outside marriage. They may not flaunt it, but they still engage in such activities. It’s much more prevalent today, then 30 years ago. Today we have endless opportunity to watch films, that in the past would have been banned from theaters. U-tube on iPhones, computer garbage – and then of course what young adults observe on their own high school and university campuses, and then in the office, no matter what career they have chosen.

    Most churches take the attitude that they don’t need to be involved with single adults lives, after they reach 20 plus, they most already know right from wrong. Yes people do know right from wrong, but the church is silent on matters of sex, especially those who are dating, all their hormones in full gear, raging, as if in a storm. They don’t want to talk to the singles, they behave like embarrassed parents, regarding sex.

    I’ve spoken with many, they don’t want to make a mistake, by getting married. It’s also very popular to WAIT to get married, but it’s also not unheard of in conservative circles, to see a young woman pregnant, not getting married, with no intention of changing her status – living with the infants father.

    The church wrings their hands, blaming the parents, or anyone else. No matter how one wants to stand back and point the finger, we must reach out to those who are single, struggling with temptation. Sexual urges at a young (or often any) age are strong, they aren’t easy to control.

    The “abortion” issue is formidable. We can pray for those who find themselves in this situation, give guidance within the church with qualified people to comfort.

    36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

    37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
    1 Corinthians 7

  • Grace

    Young people falling into a trap of sexual activity before marriage isn’t new, it’s an old problem – even within strong Christian conservative denominations. Young people who became pregnant, married – very quickly . They had no choice, parents made sure their misdeed was corrected by a wedding.

    What we witness today is different, young adults, and those who aren’t young, aren’t embarrassed because they have sex outside marriage. They may not flaunt it, but they still engage in such activities. It’s much more prevalent today, then 30 years ago. Today we have endless opportunity to watch films, that in the past would have been banned from theaters. U-tube on iPhones, computer garbage – and then of course what young adults observe on their own high school and university campuses, and then in the office, no matter what career they have chosen.

    Most churches take the attitude that they don’t need to be involved with single adults lives, after they reach 20 plus, they most already know right from wrong. Yes people do know right from wrong, but the church is silent on matters of sex, especially those who are dating, all their hormones in full gear, raging, as if in a storm. They don’t want to talk to the singles, they behave like embarrassed parents, regarding sex.

    I’ve spoken with many, they don’t want to make a mistake, by getting married. It’s also very popular to WAIT to get married, but it’s also not unheard of in conservative circles, to see a young woman pregnant, not getting married, with no intention of changing her status – living with the infants father.

    The church wrings their hands, blaming the parents, or anyone else. No matter how one wants to stand back and point the finger, we must reach out to those who are single, struggling with temptation. Sexual urges at a young (or often any) age are strong, they aren’t easy to control.

    The “abortion” issue is formidable. We can pray for those who find themselves in this situation, give guidance within the church with qualified people to comfort.

    36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.

    37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
    1 Corinthians 7

  • Grace

    Dr. Olasky – I’m glad you have chosen to bring this very important issue front and center. It’s disturbing, heartbreaking, but must be addressed with all speed. Churches are timid when confronted with sexual activities within the “single adult” congregants. I believe the reason is this; they don’t want to offend, or cause their “singles” to leave their church, either because the “singles” will be insulted, embarrassed, or convicted!

    You ask: “Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried?”

    No, we should not. That approach says, in so many words, go ahead, at least you won’t be taking the chance of conceiving a child. If churches recommend, Birth Control in any form, suggesting it to their congregants, they are supporting, the woman sin sexually. One would ask, how many other sins does this church or denomination support, through a veil of hiding the results of sin.

    Birth control pills are known for their “abortion” properties.

    God bless you Dr. Olasky

  • Grace

    Dr. Olasky – I’m glad you have chosen to bring this very important issue front and center. It’s disturbing, heartbreaking, but must be addressed with all speed. Churches are timid when confronted with sexual activities within the “single adult” congregants. I believe the reason is this; they don’t want to offend, or cause their “singles” to leave their church, either because the “singles” will be insulted, embarrassed, or convicted!

    You ask: “Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried?”

    No, we should not. That approach says, in so many words, go ahead, at least you won’t be taking the chance of conceiving a child. If churches recommend, Birth Control in any form, suggesting it to their congregants, they are supporting, the woman sin sexually. One would ask, how many other sins does this church or denomination support, through a veil of hiding the results of sin.

    Birth control pills are known for their “abortion” properties.

    God bless you Dr. Olasky

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith,

    I want to thank you for bringing this important situation to your blog. It’s a difficult subject, but we as Believers must find ways to be involved with those who are single.

    Blessings to you.

  • Grace

    Dr. Veith,

    I want to thank you for bringing this important situation to your blog. It’s a difficult subject, but we as Believers must find ways to be involved with those who are single.

    Blessings to you.

  • fws

    The Lutheran Confessions are very clear here:

    1)There is only ONE Biblically mandated form of sexual self control that works.
    2)It is marriage.
    3)Therefore St Paul COMMAND all to be married.

    If a young person cannot keep it in his pants, then his parents need to encourage him to get married.
    The extended family on both sides then need to do all they can materially to help that work at a very young age if necessary, as in baby sitting, help with college, etc etc.

    This is the OFFICIAL teaching of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
    Large Catechism:

    4th commandment: Marriage is defined as the sanctioning by God of the government of husband and wife over their household.

    6th commandment: Marriage itself is the protection of marriage by being the ONLY biblical form of sexual self control that actually can work. How? All are given their “ration/portion” of sex so that they are less likely to chase after someone else’s spouse.
    Luther notes that this can only really work if the couple works on being good companions and on loving and respecting one another. Celebacy is excluded as a means of sexual self control because it is “obvious” that it doesn’t usually work (Augsburg Confession XXIII).

    Footnotes:
    Large Catechism 4th commandment comprehensive Lutheran definition of matrimony:
    http://bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php#para103

    Large Catechism 6th commandment definition of matrimony as the only Biblically approved and commanded method of sexual self control:
    http://bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php#para199

    Augsburg Confession. Official Lutheran position against celebacy as a method of sexual self control:

    For it is obvious , and many have confessed that no good, honest, chaste life, no Christian, sincere, upright conduct has resulted from the attempt [at celebacy as a form of sexual self control], but a horrible, fearful unrest and torment of conscience has been felt by many until the end.

    For this very reason, those who are not fit to lead a single life ought to [are commanded to ] contract matrimony.

    http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article23.5

    Note that the official Lutheran Position on sexual self control is:
    a) Attempt by celebacy doesn’t work and results in tragic endings,
    b)Therefore all are commanded to marry.

    They state that only miraculous , singular, Divine intervention can change this.

  • fws

    The Lutheran Confessions are very clear here:

    1)There is only ONE Biblically mandated form of sexual self control that works.
    2)It is marriage.
    3)Therefore St Paul COMMAND all to be married.

    If a young person cannot keep it in his pants, then his parents need to encourage him to get married.
    The extended family on both sides then need to do all they can materially to help that work at a very young age if necessary, as in baby sitting, help with college, etc etc.

    This is the OFFICIAL teaching of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
    Large Catechism:

    4th commandment: Marriage is defined as the sanctioning by God of the government of husband and wife over their household.

    6th commandment: Marriage itself is the protection of marriage by being the ONLY biblical form of sexual self control that actually can work. How? All are given their “ration/portion” of sex so that they are less likely to chase after someone else’s spouse.
    Luther notes that this can only really work if the couple works on being good companions and on loving and respecting one another. Celebacy is excluded as a means of sexual self control because it is “obvious” that it doesn’t usually work (Augsburg Confession XXIII).

    Footnotes:
    Large Catechism 4th commandment comprehensive Lutheran definition of matrimony:
    http://bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php#para103

    Large Catechism 6th commandment definition of matrimony as the only Biblically approved and commanded method of sexual self control:
    http://bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php#para199

    Augsburg Confession. Official Lutheran position against celebacy as a method of sexual self control:

    For it is obvious , and many have confessed that no good, honest, chaste life, no Christian, sincere, upright conduct has resulted from the attempt [at celebacy as a form of sexual self control], but a horrible, fearful unrest and torment of conscience has been felt by many until the end.

    For this very reason, those who are not fit to lead a single life ought to [are commanded to ] contract matrimony.

    http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article23.5

    Note that the official Lutheran Position on sexual self control is:
    a) Attempt by celebacy doesn’t work and results in tragic endings,
    b)Therefore all are commanded to marry.

    They state that only miraculous , singular, Divine intervention can change this.

  • http://concordiaandkoinonia.wordpress.com/ Rev. Mark Schroeder

    “The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year.”

    I think the elephant in the room is the ever increasing age of marriage. The Lutheran Confessions are against forced celibacy. Rightly so. As the age of marriage becomes later and later, we are asking young people to be celibate until their 20s or later. “But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” 1 Corinthians 7:9. We have let the culture/world dictate marriage, ‘sexuality’ etc.to us for at least a Biblical generation. Maybe a new start in a new discussion would be encouraging our young people to consider marriage before their twenties. I know every thing speaks against this but I think it is well worth considering. We will have no help from the order of government as it is currently in the service of the zeitgeist. Only the faithful Church could engage this discussion.

  • http://concordiaandkoinonia.wordpress.com/ Rev. Mark Schroeder

    “The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year.”

    I think the elephant in the room is the ever increasing age of marriage. The Lutheran Confessions are against forced celibacy. Rightly so. As the age of marriage becomes later and later, we are asking young people to be celibate until their 20s or later. “But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” 1 Corinthians 7:9. We have let the culture/world dictate marriage, ‘sexuality’ etc.to us for at least a Biblical generation. Maybe a new start in a new discussion would be encouraging our young people to consider marriage before their twenties. I know every thing speaks against this but I think it is well worth considering. We will have no help from the order of government as it is currently in the service of the zeitgeist. Only the faithful Church could engage this discussion.

  • Grace

    Rev. Mark Schroeder @27

    How right you are. I was just looking at the passage of Scripture you quoted, just this past hour – 1 Corinthians 7:9

    I can understand and support education, four or five years is not a long time – that would mean a young man could marry at 23, or perhaps 22, his last year of university.

    Young adults are caught up in acquiring ‘things’ this would include a new car, clothes, a great apartment, and travel – all very expensive. Let’s not leave out the latest iPhone, and the best computers, and laptops, etc. All this before thinking of marriage. If that isn’t enough, sexual activity, is rarely laid aside, it often comes first.

    The order of importance is misappropriated.

    One of my dearest relatives married at 21, he couldn’t leave the girl he met at university to begin law school. He rode the train everyday for a year to law school so that he and the woman he loved could be married, live together, and she could finish her last year. They both moved close to his law school after she graduated, she began her career as a teacher. They have one of the best marriages, with a darling little two year old daughter. He is very strong Christian, involved with his church, and has a top position as a lawyer. We are all very happy for him and his lovely wife. The point being, they both married young, and the results are a testimony to his morals and values. Right after they met, she became a Christian.

  • Grace

    Rev. Mark Schroeder @27

    How right you are. I was just looking at the passage of Scripture you quoted, just this past hour – 1 Corinthians 7:9

    I can understand and support education, four or five years is not a long time – that would mean a young man could marry at 23, or perhaps 22, his last year of university.

    Young adults are caught up in acquiring ‘things’ this would include a new car, clothes, a great apartment, and travel – all very expensive. Let’s not leave out the latest iPhone, and the best computers, and laptops, etc. All this before thinking of marriage. If that isn’t enough, sexual activity, is rarely laid aside, it often comes first.

    The order of importance is misappropriated.

    One of my dearest relatives married at 21, he couldn’t leave the girl he met at university to begin law school. He rode the train everyday for a year to law school so that he and the woman he loved could be married, live together, and she could finish her last year. They both moved close to his law school after she graduated, she began her career as a teacher. They have one of the best marriages, with a darling little two year old daughter. He is very strong Christian, involved with his church, and has a top position as a lawyer. We are all very happy for him and his lovely wife. The point being, they both married young, and the results are a testimony to his morals and values. Right after they met, she became a Christian.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Going back to the assumption that women get married soon after high school and men around age 23 would only solve half the problem. We would no longer be telling girls to wait 10 years or more but we would still be telling boys to do that.

    Not exactly.

    Full sexual maturity for most women is about age 14-15. For men 16-18. No double standard. Still about 5 years for both men and women.

    Someone noted men age 20-21 were still mostly “unfit” to marry, so marrying while college aged is not so great for men. But lets not overlook the fact that a well used 25 year old woman is probably even less fit. Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals because they don’t know men who are old enough to marry, but the women are old enough for sex. I mean, it is a pretty disgusting arrangement. And that is the environment that we insist our young women live in if they want social approval.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Going back to the assumption that women get married soon after high school and men around age 23 would only solve half the problem. We would no longer be telling girls to wait 10 years or more but we would still be telling boys to do that.

    Not exactly.

    Full sexual maturity for most women is about age 14-15. For men 16-18. No double standard. Still about 5 years for both men and women.

    Someone noted men age 20-21 were still mostly “unfit” to marry, so marrying while college aged is not so great for men. But lets not overlook the fact that a well used 25 year old woman is probably even less fit. Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals because they don’t know men who are old enough to marry, but the women are old enough for sex. I mean, it is a pretty disgusting arrangement. And that is the environment that we insist our young women live in if they want social approval.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You ask: “Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried?”

    No, we should not. That approach says, in so many words, go ahead, at least you won’t be taking the chance of conceiving a child.

    Also, contraception failure rates are pretty high for young women. Using contraception only reduces conception rates. It doesn’t work all of the time. Contraception failure rates are much lower for older married women than for younger unmarried women.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You ask: “Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried?”

    No, we should not. That approach says, in so many words, go ahead, at least you won’t be taking the chance of conceiving a child.

    Also, contraception failure rates are pretty high for young women. Using contraception only reduces conception rates. It doesn’t work all of the time. Contraception failure rates are much lower for older married women than for younger unmarried women.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Young adults are caught up in acquiring ‘things’ this would include a new car, clothes, a great apartment, and travel – all very expensive.

    Yeah, well so are older folks. I have lots of over 65 widowed friends who live in four bedroom houses and take vacations, etc. Meanwhile their grandkids are too poor to get married. It is all about social status. They don’t want to give up their “independence.” If grandma said the first one to get married gets her house. I bet you would see a grandchild take her up on it. My husband’s grandparents paid for all of their grandkids to go to college. My husband used all his share at an expensive name brand private school, his cousin went to medical school, another got a masters and the two remaining went to state schools and had money left over to get started in life. I have already told my kids that we will pay for their college and buy them houses so they won’t have to delay getting married or having a family. I don’t care if I have to sleep on my son’s sofa and change diapers in exchange for food, I don’t want them struggling living in an apartment and cavorting with bar flies. Nasty. The whole don’t ask don’t tell attitude towards adult children is sick. I am asking and telling. But, I am obnoxious. I am sure that at least my older son will tell me to shut up if I annoy him too much. Okay, rambling.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Young adults are caught up in acquiring ‘things’ this would include a new car, clothes, a great apartment, and travel – all very expensive.

    Yeah, well so are older folks. I have lots of over 65 widowed friends who live in four bedroom houses and take vacations, etc. Meanwhile their grandkids are too poor to get married. It is all about social status. They don’t want to give up their “independence.” If grandma said the first one to get married gets her house. I bet you would see a grandchild take her up on it. My husband’s grandparents paid for all of their grandkids to go to college. My husband used all his share at an expensive name brand private school, his cousin went to medical school, another got a masters and the two remaining went to state schools and had money left over to get started in life. I have already told my kids that we will pay for their college and buy them houses so they won’t have to delay getting married or having a family. I don’t care if I have to sleep on my son’s sofa and change diapers in exchange for food, I don’t want them struggling living in an apartment and cavorting with bar flies. Nasty. The whole don’t ask don’t tell attitude towards adult children is sick. I am asking and telling. But, I am obnoxious. I am sure that at least my older son will tell me to shut up if I annoy him too much. Okay, rambling.

  • Grace

    sg @ 30

    Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals because they don’t know men who are old enough to marry, but the women are old enough for sex.”

    Attractive women have less morals then average, below average looking women? That is effectively what you’ve stated above.

    Because an attractive woman is asked out more often, doesn’t make her sexually active. Equating attractiveness with “sexual experience” is illogical. I have known many very good looking women. who have had “marriage proposals” from men who are in university, being of similar age.

  • Grace

    sg @ 30

    Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals because they don’t know men who are old enough to marry, but the women are old enough for sex.”

    Attractive women have less morals then average, below average looking women? That is effectively what you’ve stated above.

    Because an attractive woman is asked out more often, doesn’t make her sexually active. Equating attractiveness with “sexual experience” is illogical. I have known many very good looking women. who have had “marriage proposals” from men who are in university, being of similar age.

  • fws

    sg @ 30 and 31

    If I understand you right, I think you are right on the money here.
    In all of the world’s history, men and women have married not too long after puberty. It makes sense then that in most couples the men are older and women younger.

    We should raise youth treating them and grooming them as adults rather than indulging them as kids. Instead of youth groups we should integrate them into the Divine Service and give them adult responsibilies and place such expectations upon them.

    And this means that kids should get married rather than expect them to “save it for your wedding night” for 8,9, or 10 years after puberty or longer. That is simply unrealistic for a teen full of raging hormones.

    So why dont we encourage teen marriage? Affluence. Greed. Materialism. Selfishness. What would be needed for teen marriage would be for the nuclear family to wrap supportively around such a couple and their kids. Nuclear family meaning the tribe. Extended aunts uncles, grandparents, etc. And marriage at an earlier age means that the grandparents would still be young enough to really get involved. The cross generational involvement would strengthen morals and preparation to enter the larger society.

    Why are we not pushing, and pushing very hard, in this direction?

  • fws

    sg @ 30 and 31

    If I understand you right, I think you are right on the money here.
    In all of the world’s history, men and women have married not too long after puberty. It makes sense then that in most couples the men are older and women younger.

    We should raise youth treating them and grooming them as adults rather than indulging them as kids. Instead of youth groups we should integrate them into the Divine Service and give them adult responsibilies and place such expectations upon them.

    And this means that kids should get married rather than expect them to “save it for your wedding night” for 8,9, or 10 years after puberty or longer. That is simply unrealistic for a teen full of raging hormones.

    So why dont we encourage teen marriage? Affluence. Greed. Materialism. Selfishness. What would be needed for teen marriage would be for the nuclear family to wrap supportively around such a couple and their kids. Nuclear family meaning the tribe. Extended aunts uncles, grandparents, etc. And marriage at an earlier age means that the grandparents would still be young enough to really get involved. The cross generational involvement would strengthen morals and preparation to enter the larger society.

    Why are we not pushing, and pushing very hard, in this direction?

  • Grace

    sg,

    Young people can learn to work. That means working the first two years after high school, going to a community college, living at home.

    Most all the people I know who had university given to them, plus a down payment on their first home, have little respect for money. They don’t appreciate hard work. When they inherit, they often squander the money and assets.

    The young man I spoke of earlier who has a top position as a lawyer, at a young age – - earned every dollar of his college and law school funds – he also earned the money to put a down payment on a beautiful 5 bedroom home. He knows what hard work is, he’s successful and most of all, a strong Christian, good husband and father. It didn’t come easy, but he earned his way. BTW, his wife is a stay at home mom.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Young people can learn to work. That means working the first two years after high school, going to a community college, living at home.

    Most all the people I know who had university given to them, plus a down payment on their first home, have little respect for money. They don’t appreciate hard work. When they inherit, they often squander the money and assets.

    The young man I spoke of earlier who has a top position as a lawyer, at a young age – - earned every dollar of his college and law school funds – he also earned the money to put a down payment on a beautiful 5 bedroom home. He knows what hard work is, he’s successful and most of all, a strong Christian, good husband and father. It didn’t come easy, but he earned his way. BTW, his wife is a stay at home mom.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe a new start in a new discussion would be encouraging our young people to consider marriage before their twenties. I know every thing speaks against this but I think it is well worth considering.

    No, no, no. Everything does not speak against it. 99% of all discussion in human history speaks for it, based on actual results over thousands of years with billions of real people. The only thing speaking against it is contemporary social engineering, the results of which don’t support the premise of delaying marriage being on balance beneficial. We have sky high sexual disease rates and 50 million kids in the US have been murdered by abortion. Nothing is speaking against it except the devil and his dupes. Okay our generation was duped. Let’s admit it and not let it be the default mode for our kids. If we give them good information and they don’t listen, that is their fault. If we don’t tell them or we actively encourage harmful behavior so we can get social approval, then it is our fault.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe a new start in a new discussion would be encouraging our young people to consider marriage before their twenties. I know every thing speaks against this but I think it is well worth considering.

    No, no, no. Everything does not speak against it. 99% of all discussion in human history speaks for it, based on actual results over thousands of years with billions of real people. The only thing speaking against it is contemporary social engineering, the results of which don’t support the premise of delaying marriage being on balance beneficial. We have sky high sexual disease rates and 50 million kids in the US have been murdered by abortion. Nothing is speaking against it except the devil and his dupes. Okay our generation was duped. Let’s admit it and not let it be the default mode for our kids. If we give them good information and they don’t listen, that is their fault. If we don’t tell them or we actively encourage harmful behavior so we can get social approval, then it is our fault.

  • fws

    sg @ 32

    +1

    I have already told my kids that we will pay for their college and buy them houses so they won’t have to delay getting married or having a family. I don’t care if I have to sleep on my son’s sofa and change diapers in exchange for food, I don’t want them struggling living in an apartment and cavorting with bar flies. Nasty. The whole don’t ask don’t tell attitude towards adult children is sick. I am asking and telling.

    May God richly bless you for your love and fearless devotion to your family SG. Thanks for sharing this. Truly Awesome!

  • fws

    sg @ 32

    +1

    I have already told my kids that we will pay for their college and buy them houses so they won’t have to delay getting married or having a family. I don’t care if I have to sleep on my son’s sofa and change diapers in exchange for food, I don’t want them struggling living in an apartment and cavorting with bar flies. Nasty. The whole don’t ask don’t tell attitude towards adult children is sick. I am asking and telling.

    May God richly bless you for your love and fearless devotion to your family SG. Thanks for sharing this. Truly Awesome!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Young people can learn to work. That means working the first two years after high school, going to a community college, living at home.

    Yeah, that’s right. If parents or grandparents don’t have the money or the young person doesn’t seem to have developed enough work ethic yet, that can be a great way to start.

    Most all the people I know who had university given to them, plus a down payment on their first home, have little respect for money. They don’t appreciate hard work. When they inherit, they often squander the money and assets.

    Okay, not my direct experience, but I can see how that could happen if the parents didn’t demand good grades or some other such measure of responsibility. The folks I know who inherited are the hopelessly responsible types who were top of their class and really diligent and active in volunteering, community service, etc., despite having parents underwrite their start in life. I am not saying my friends are wholly representative, but they are real.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Young people can learn to work. That means working the first two years after high school, going to a community college, living at home.

    Yeah, that’s right. If parents or grandparents don’t have the money or the young person doesn’t seem to have developed enough work ethic yet, that can be a great way to start.

    Most all the people I know who had university given to them, plus a down payment on their first home, have little respect for money. They don’t appreciate hard work. When they inherit, they often squander the money and assets.

    Okay, not my direct experience, but I can see how that could happen if the parents didn’t demand good grades or some other such measure of responsibility. The folks I know who inherited are the hopelessly responsible types who were top of their class and really diligent and active in volunteering, community service, etc., despite having parents underwrite their start in life. I am not saying my friends are wholly representative, but they are real.

  • Grace

    sg,

    I’m not speaking of young adults who weren’t raised properly, or who received bad grades. Most of them were top students.

    I don’t believe for one moment that teenagers make good choices when getting married, they are usually the ones who’s marriages fail.

    My father officated at many marriages. The ones that lasted were those where the young adults were over 21 when getting married. There is a lot of heartache associated with a marriage ‘too early in life’ my father knew the results, he was the one who listened to the problems of such marriages, when they failed.

  • Grace

    sg,

    I’m not speaking of young adults who weren’t raised properly, or who received bad grades. Most of them were top students.

    I don’t believe for one moment that teenagers make good choices when getting married, they are usually the ones who’s marriages fail.

    My father officated at many marriages. The ones that lasted were those where the young adults were over 21 when getting married. There is a lot of heartache associated with a marriage ‘too early in life’ my father knew the results, he was the one who listened to the problems of such marriages, when they failed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Attractive women have less morals then average, below average looking women? That is effectively what you’ve stated above.”

    Oh, good grief, no. Virtually all young women are attractive by virtue of being young and fertile. That is what attracts the male, hence attractive.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Attractive women have less morals then average, below average looking women? That is effectively what you’ve stated above.”

    Oh, good grief, no. Virtually all young women are attractive by virtue of being young and fertile. That is what attracts the male, hence attractive.

  • Grace

    Below is what you wrote sg @30

    ‘“Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals because they don’t know men who are old enough to marry, but the women are old enough for sex.”

    Then you write @40

    “Virtually all young women are attractive by virtue of being young and fertile.”

    LOL, “ALL” ?

  • Grace

    Below is what you wrote sg @30

    ‘“Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals because they don’t know men who are old enough to marry, but the women are old enough for sex.”

    Then you write @40

    “Virtually all young women are attractive by virtue of being young and fertile.”

    LOL, “ALL” ?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I don’t believe for one moment that teenagers make good choices when getting married, they are usually the ones who’s marriages fail.”

    Absurd. We have the historical record. Teen women marrying regular guys with some visible means of support have a fabulous track record. Of course these people were often following the good advice of parents and getting permission from Dad to get married. You cannot compare that to today’s teens who marry against parental advice. People who are smart enough and respectful enough to honor their parents’ wisdom are going to be more successful no matter how old they are when they marry. All we have done is told smart responsible young people to wait to get married. Being smart and responsible, they take their elders advice. When the elders told smart young people to marry earlier, they did and they had good results. So, success was based on who they were, not when they married.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I don’t believe for one moment that teenagers make good choices when getting married, they are usually the ones who’s marriages fail.”

    Absurd. We have the historical record. Teen women marrying regular guys with some visible means of support have a fabulous track record. Of course these people were often following the good advice of parents and getting permission from Dad to get married. You cannot compare that to today’s teens who marry against parental advice. People who are smart enough and respectful enough to honor their parents’ wisdom are going to be more successful no matter how old they are when they marry. All we have done is told smart responsible young people to wait to get married. Being smart and responsible, they take their elders advice. When the elders told smart young people to marry earlier, they did and they had good results. So, success was based on who they were, not when they married.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I am not using attractive as a synonym for beautiful.

    I have to put my son to bed.

    You all have a nice evening. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I am not using attractive as a synonym for beautiful.

    I have to put my son to bed.

    You all have a nice evening. :-)

  • Grace

    sg,

    So by your comments “all” means that “all” women are attractive, therefore:

    @30 “Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals”

    @40 “Virtually all young women are attractive by virtue of being young and fertile.”

    So “all” women have lots of sexual experience because they are attrractive? LOL

  • Grace

    sg,

    So by your comments “all” means that “all” women are attractive, therefore:

    @30 “Attractive young women get lots of sexual experience but no marriage proposals”

    @40 “Virtually all young women are attractive by virtue of being young and fertile.”

    So “all” women have lots of sexual experience because they are attrractive? LOL

  • fws

    Matt Cochrane @ 4

    Let’s just preach the whole counsel of God and let the Holy Spirit decide which results He’ll bring out of it.

    This is part of what the Lutheran Confessions (the Apology) have to say in order to directly oppose the teachings of Thomist Natural Law.

    Thomist Natural Law proponents see the Law as being the Mind of God and the revelation of the Image of God. Therefore the restoration of God’s Image is by man’s reconformity to that Law.

    There are Lutheran voices who suggest that Thomist Natural Law is the only effective response to homosexuality and also sanctity of Life issues. Some Lutherans have taken this bait. The bait hides a hook that is a return to the very Thomist Scholasticism that is addressed and opposed in the Apology to the Augsburg Confessions. Amazing that Lutherans would go there!

    Lutherans say that the Telos of the Law is alone death. Alone.
    Faith alone IS the Image of God restored. Alone.
    That Image is restored alone in Baptism.
    The Image of God was for Adam and is for us, alone the Righeousness that is of Faith alone, in Christ alone.
    It is Christ, alone, who is the FULL revelation of the Mind of God and his will towards us. Apart from the Law.
    The Law came through Moses, but grace and truth (alone!) through Christ.

    Therefor the purpose of the Law is ALWAYS and ONLY to terrify and kills us. The Telos (Divine Design) for the Law is to drive us to despair in works and then to Christ. Thomists are wrong that the Law offers anything other than death and mortification.

    The Law provides no remedy for sin. Only Faith ends sin.

    Therefore our Confessions say this:

    “the faith of which we speak exists in repentance, i.e., it is conceived in the terrors of conscience, which feels the wrath of God against our sins,and seeks the remission of sins, and to be freed from sin. And in such terrors and other afflictions this faith ought to grow and be strengthened. ”
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php#para21

    Wherefore, [such faith] it cannot exist in those who live according to the flesh who are delighted by their own lusts and obey them. (ibid)

    [Only a true believer can know and experience] how the remission of sins occurs, and how, in the judgment of God and terrors of conscience, trust in works is driven out of us.
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php#para20

    So the Lutheran position on the Law and Gospel provides the true remedy and end to sin.
    At the same time it points to true godly living that is not about reaching to God, but is rather about dying to serve our neighbor.

    “the faith of which we speak exists in repentance, i.e., it is conceived in the terrors of conscience, which feels the wrath of God against our sins,and seeks the remission of sins, and to be freed from sin. And in such terrors and other afflictions this faith ought to grow and be strengthened. ”
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php#para21

    Wherefore, [such faith] it cannot exist in those who live according to the flesh who are delighted by their own lusts and obey them. (ibid)

    [Only a true believer can know and experience] how the remission of sins occurs, and how, in the judgment of God and terrors of conscience, trust in works is driven out of us.
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php#para20

  • fws

    Matt Cochrane @ 4

    Let’s just preach the whole counsel of God and let the Holy Spirit decide which results He’ll bring out of it.

    This is part of what the Lutheran Confessions (the Apology) have to say in order to directly oppose the teachings of Thomist Natural Law.

    Thomist Natural Law proponents see the Law as being the Mind of God and the revelation of the Image of God. Therefore the restoration of God’s Image is by man’s reconformity to that Law.

    There are Lutheran voices who suggest that Thomist Natural Law is the only effective response to homosexuality and also sanctity of Life issues. Some Lutherans have taken this bait. The bait hides a hook that is a return to the very Thomist Scholasticism that is addressed and opposed in the Apology to the Augsburg Confessions. Amazing that Lutherans would go there!

    Lutherans say that the Telos of the Law is alone death. Alone.
    Faith alone IS the Image of God restored. Alone.
    That Image is restored alone in Baptism.
    The Image of God was for Adam and is for us, alone the Righeousness that is of Faith alone, in Christ alone.
    It is Christ, alone, who is the FULL revelation of the Mind of God and his will towards us. Apart from the Law.
    The Law came through Moses, but grace and truth (alone!) through Christ.

    Therefor the purpose of the Law is ALWAYS and ONLY to terrify and kills us. The Telos (Divine Design) for the Law is to drive us to despair in works and then to Christ. Thomists are wrong that the Law offers anything other than death and mortification.

    The Law provides no remedy for sin. Only Faith ends sin.

    Therefore our Confessions say this:

    “the faith of which we speak exists in repentance, i.e., it is conceived in the terrors of conscience, which feels the wrath of God against our sins,and seeks the remission of sins, and to be freed from sin. And in such terrors and other afflictions this faith ought to grow and be strengthened. ”
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php#para21

    Wherefore, [such faith] it cannot exist in those who live according to the flesh who are delighted by their own lusts and obey them. (ibid)

    [Only a true believer can know and experience] how the remission of sins occurs, and how, in the judgment of God and terrors of conscience, trust in works is driven out of us.
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php#para20

    So the Lutheran position on the Law and Gospel provides the true remedy and end to sin.
    At the same time it points to true godly living that is not about reaching to God, but is rather about dying to serve our neighbor.

    “the faith of which we speak exists in repentance, i.e., it is conceived in the terrors of conscience, which feels the wrath of God against our sins,and seeks the remission of sins, and to be freed from sin. And in such terrors and other afflictions this faith ought to grow and be strengthened. ”
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_5_love.php#para21

    Wherefore, [such faith] it cannot exist in those who live according to the flesh who are delighted by their own lusts and obey them. (ibid)

    [Only a true believer can know and experience] how the remission of sins occurs, and how, in the judgment of God and terrors of conscience, trust in works is driven out of us.
    http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justification.php#para20

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The more attractive a person is, the more opportunities they have because they are solicited/tempted more often. That doesn’t mean all are equally attractive, tempted, moral, etc. Of course we all know this already, and I never meant to imply that pretty girls are sluttier or some such. Not what I meant.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The more attractive a person is, the more opportunities they have because they are solicited/tempted more often. That doesn’t mean all are equally attractive, tempted, moral, etc. Of course we all know this already, and I never meant to imply that pretty girls are sluttier or some such. Not what I meant.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So “all” women have lots of sexual experience because they are attrractive? LOL

    Not all as in absolutely everyone, but in general:

    The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So “all” women have lots of sexual experience because they are attrractive? LOL

    Not all as in absolutely everyone, but in general:

    The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If 80% of singles are sexually active and 100% of married people are sexually active, that averages out to somewhere around 90%. So, 90% were definitely able to at least attract a partner, and probably almost all in the remaining 10% attracted the attention of a potential partner at some point but declined the offer. So, where are we? 99%? Yeah, I would call that all, for the purpose of making a generalization.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If 80% of singles are sexually active and 100% of married people are sexually active, that averages out to somewhere around 90%. So, 90% were definitely able to at least attract a partner, and probably almost all in the remaining 10% attracted the attention of a potential partner at some point but declined the offer. So, where are we? 99%? Yeah, I would call that all, for the purpose of making a generalization.

  • fws

    sg @ 48.
    It is because of this statistic, that should be simply obvious to all, and because St Paul says the same, that Lutherans say this:

    the ONLY practical method for sexual self control is to have sex freely available in marriage.
    This is why God COMMANDS all to get married.

    Any other proposal sounds pious, but is in reality, breeds the shadows, false posturing, and dishonesty that immorality thrives in.

  • fws

    sg @ 48.
    It is because of this statistic, that should be simply obvious to all, and because St Paul says the same, that Lutherans say this:

    the ONLY practical method for sexual self control is to have sex freely available in marriage.
    This is why God COMMANDS all to get married.

    Any other proposal sounds pious, but is in reality, breeds the shadows, false posturing, and dishonesty that immorality thrives in.

  • larry

    PRECISELY Frank at 27 and nailed similarly Pastor Schroeder at 28, indeed the HUGE BEHEMOTH GARGANTUAN wall to wall room filling elephant in the room.

  • larry

    PRECISELY Frank at 27 and nailed similarly Pastor Schroeder at 28, indeed the HUGE BEHEMOTH GARGANTUAN wall to wall room filling elephant in the room.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    All, while the age of marriage has a lot to do with this, as well as the age at which men are capable of supporting a family, it misses a bigger point, I believe, in that many believers have no coherent theology of marriage. If we truly understood marriage as the picture of God’s love for His people, and if we truly understood fornication as a most reprehensible form of idolatry in that light, we would–as one commenter noted–move Hell and high water to make sure our young ones had as good a chance to marry well at a reasonably young age.

    And then the problems of older marriage and such would largely be eliminated.

  • http://www.bikebubba.blogspot.com bike bubba

    All, while the age of marriage has a lot to do with this, as well as the age at which men are capable of supporting a family, it misses a bigger point, I believe, in that many believers have no coherent theology of marriage. If we truly understood marriage as the picture of God’s love for His people, and if we truly understood fornication as a most reprehensible form of idolatry in that light, we would–as one commenter noted–move Hell and high water to make sure our young ones had as good a chance to marry well at a reasonably young age.

    And then the problems of older marriage and such would largely be eliminated.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @49

    I think that the point is that the church must adhere to the Biblical standards no matter what. Yes, it is true that in the fallen world there exist situations that to our fallen human reasons appear better addressed by other methods, but if what we think (imagine, lust after) contradicts scripture, we have to repent and profess what God’s Word teaches. We do not have the freedom to contradict the plain and clear teachings. There are plenty of sins and behaviors that don’t particularly offend me, but so what; I suffer the total depravity of my sinful flesh, so of course numerous of sins don’t bother me. Heck, I find some fun, which is what you would expect of a poor miserable sinner. And God is merciful and lets me repent. Those in the church encouraging reasonably responsible young people to wait too long for marriage even though they can’t/won’t remain continent are encouraging the conditions that will generally lead these young people to stumble. We should not be stumbling blocks.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @49

    I think that the point is that the church must adhere to the Biblical standards no matter what. Yes, it is true that in the fallen world there exist situations that to our fallen human reasons appear better addressed by other methods, but if what we think (imagine, lust after) contradicts scripture, we have to repent and profess what God’s Word teaches. We do not have the freedom to contradict the plain and clear teachings. There are plenty of sins and behaviors that don’t particularly offend me, but so what; I suffer the total depravity of my sinful flesh, so of course numerous of sins don’t bother me. Heck, I find some fun, which is what you would expect of a poor miserable sinner. And God is merciful and lets me repent. Those in the church encouraging reasonably responsible young people to wait too long for marriage even though they can’t/won’t remain continent are encouraging the conditions that will generally lead these young people to stumble. We should not be stumbling blocks.

  • Stephen

    To throw a spanner in the works . . .

    While I admire sg’s plan for her kids, and will probably take some pointers, I am still not convinced it is realistic, at least not for everyone. How would this sort of vision of marriage and women avoid returning to the kind of situation women find themselves in in Afghanistan? Maybe it is an invalid slippery slope, but sg has pointed to the evidence of history, so it seems plausible that steering women into child rearing young, and consequently devaluing their need for advanced education, et. al and thus putting young men back into roles of sole authority and providership might mean also a return to a legacy of abuse that we avoid confronting because we are wedded to this idea of a “biblical” lifestyle.

    Thoughts? And please sg, don’t just blow me off and call it “goofy.” I really want to understand this. I have daughter, and I am currently watching my favorite niece go off to college. But what is happening to women in Afghanistan is exactly like the world of the bible. The woman killed last week from trying to escape her husband, and women jailed for being raped and then brutalized for no fault of their own (and this happens withing families/clans no less) is real. There is no reason, that I can see, that the outcomes for Christians could not be just as retrograde and in need of reform as they eventually were in the Christian country.

    By the way, it is worth noting that roots of the women’s movement in this country began in the temperance movement of the 19th c. which was and attempt to restore order and biblical principals to society, as was the ending of abuse.

    Okay, discuss.

  • Stephen

    To throw a spanner in the works . . .

    While I admire sg’s plan for her kids, and will probably take some pointers, I am still not convinced it is realistic, at least not for everyone. How would this sort of vision of marriage and women avoid returning to the kind of situation women find themselves in in Afghanistan? Maybe it is an invalid slippery slope, but sg has pointed to the evidence of history, so it seems plausible that steering women into child rearing young, and consequently devaluing their need for advanced education, et. al and thus putting young men back into roles of sole authority and providership might mean also a return to a legacy of abuse that we avoid confronting because we are wedded to this idea of a “biblical” lifestyle.

    Thoughts? And please sg, don’t just blow me off and call it “goofy.” I really want to understand this. I have daughter, and I am currently watching my favorite niece go off to college. But what is happening to women in Afghanistan is exactly like the world of the bible. The woman killed last week from trying to escape her husband, and women jailed for being raped and then brutalized for no fault of their own (and this happens withing families/clans no less) is real. There is no reason, that I can see, that the outcomes for Christians could not be just as retrograde and in need of reform as they eventually were in the Christian country.

    By the way, it is worth noting that roots of the women’s movement in this country began in the temperance movement of the 19th c. which was and attempt to restore order and biblical principals to society, as was the ending of abuse.

    Okay, discuss.

  • Larry

    Actually Bubba you are not correct. Fornication is not the most reprehensible form of idolatry, the lack of the fear of God, love of God, trust in God, confidence in God is the root of all idolatry. Fornication is merely a “picture” of our trust in everything but God and establishment of our own self righteousness. Thus, those whose teachings inculcate a lack of assurance toward Christ for them are the greatest idolaters far and above the mere bodily expression of this (Paul’s point in Romans 1:18-ff). Thus, in such passages where no unclean thing may enter the kingdom is primarily meant, the uncleansed conscience not washed and thus forgiven and not primarily Hugh Heffner as it were.

    Back to Frank’s great point up in 27, indeed and the skeleton in the closet related to the elephant in the room in this country in particular is the lazy grandparents and slothful extended family that do not help the young couple nor encourage them when they struggle to survive as a young family – no most are far more interested in their investments, retirement funds and how they can basically lolly gag around for the remainder of their pointless lives.

    I had a good catholic friend, an engineer, who was from S. America and she was telling, just casually because we were speaking of kids and family enjoying the conversation, how when they have/had their kids her mom puts everything down and moves all the way up here for an undetermined time period to help out (usually years). Stunned I told her, in most cases, in this country that’s a foreign concept in the US.

    So its no great feat of mental ability to figure out why increase in fatherless homes and abandoned children or less than involved parents occur in this country, they learn it from the previous generations who teach by example how to basically have the title “grandparent, uncle, aunt” without the loving of the neighbor sacrificial giving the office requires. And after the young couple has the acceptable statistical two and they enter in into 3+ they no longer hear hearty heartfelt and meant “congratulations” but rather implied “oh nos” and “how are you going to make it”. Not, “Don’t worry we are here to help.”

    Then there are the churches and their hell hole youth groups that encourage abstinence and waiting to “better serve the Lord” in evangelism and mission, to “better be on fire for the Lord”. Most of the time this is subtly implied but I did run into one church in which to encourage this waiting/abstinence was teaching their pre-teens and younger this little chant, “Sex is bad and from the devil”. I thought, at the time, “There goes a fresh batch of atheist”. I’ve seen it time and time again.

  • Larry

    Actually Bubba you are not correct. Fornication is not the most reprehensible form of idolatry, the lack of the fear of God, love of God, trust in God, confidence in God is the root of all idolatry. Fornication is merely a “picture” of our trust in everything but God and establishment of our own self righteousness. Thus, those whose teachings inculcate a lack of assurance toward Christ for them are the greatest idolaters far and above the mere bodily expression of this (Paul’s point in Romans 1:18-ff). Thus, in such passages where no unclean thing may enter the kingdom is primarily meant, the uncleansed conscience not washed and thus forgiven and not primarily Hugh Heffner as it were.

    Back to Frank’s great point up in 27, indeed and the skeleton in the closet related to the elephant in the room in this country in particular is the lazy grandparents and slothful extended family that do not help the young couple nor encourage them when they struggle to survive as a young family – no most are far more interested in their investments, retirement funds and how they can basically lolly gag around for the remainder of their pointless lives.

    I had a good catholic friend, an engineer, who was from S. America and she was telling, just casually because we were speaking of kids and family enjoying the conversation, how when they have/had their kids her mom puts everything down and moves all the way up here for an undetermined time period to help out (usually years). Stunned I told her, in most cases, in this country that’s a foreign concept in the US.

    So its no great feat of mental ability to figure out why increase in fatherless homes and abandoned children or less than involved parents occur in this country, they learn it from the previous generations who teach by example how to basically have the title “grandparent, uncle, aunt” without the loving of the neighbor sacrificial giving the office requires. And after the young couple has the acceptable statistical two and they enter in into 3+ they no longer hear hearty heartfelt and meant “congratulations” but rather implied “oh nos” and “how are you going to make it”. Not, “Don’t worry we are here to help.”

    Then there are the churches and their hell hole youth groups that encourage abstinence and waiting to “better serve the Lord” in evangelism and mission, to “better be on fire for the Lord”. Most of the time this is subtly implied but I did run into one church in which to encourage this waiting/abstinence was teaching their pre-teens and younger this little chant, “Sex is bad and from the devil”. I thought, at the time, “There goes a fresh batch of atheist”. I’ve seen it time and time again.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe it is an invalid slippery slope, but sg has pointed to the evidence of history, so it seems plausible that steering women into child rearing young, and consequently devaluing their need for advanced education,

    That isn’t really what I was saying. Rather I just meant that we shouldn’t put up roadblocks to healthy behaviors that aren’t fashionable. We hear stuff like everyone is different and we need to respect differences, then we turn around and tell our kids that if they get married before they finish college, we will cut them off. Yeah, that is love for ya.

    thus putting young men back into roles of sole authority and providership might mean also a return to a legacy of abuse that we avoid confronting because we are wedded to this idea of a “biblical” lifestyle.

    Abusive men were always a small fraction. And no, women shouldn’t be stuck in abusive relationships. But the truth is plenty of women are jerks, too. Anyway, women are still abused, just by a boyfriend. So, the new order didn’t fix anything.

    My point is that we have gone to favoring one lifestyle so heavily that we have made it socially unacceptable to live more traditionally at least until you have already proven that you can be successful in the new order. So we prioritize the new style above all else. So we fear, love and trust in social approval from this corrupt world above all things.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Maybe it is an invalid slippery slope, but sg has pointed to the evidence of history, so it seems plausible that steering women into child rearing young, and consequently devaluing their need for advanced education,

    That isn’t really what I was saying. Rather I just meant that we shouldn’t put up roadblocks to healthy behaviors that aren’t fashionable. We hear stuff like everyone is different and we need to respect differences, then we turn around and tell our kids that if they get married before they finish college, we will cut them off. Yeah, that is love for ya.

    thus putting young men back into roles of sole authority and providership might mean also a return to a legacy of abuse that we avoid confronting because we are wedded to this idea of a “biblical” lifestyle.

    Abusive men were always a small fraction. And no, women shouldn’t be stuck in abusive relationships. But the truth is plenty of women are jerks, too. Anyway, women are still abused, just by a boyfriend. So, the new order didn’t fix anything.

    My point is that we have gone to favoring one lifestyle so heavily that we have made it socially unacceptable to live more traditionally at least until you have already proven that you can be successful in the new order. So we prioritize the new style above all else. So we fear, love and trust in social approval from this corrupt world above all things.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Fornication is not the most reprehensible form of idolatry, the lack of the fear of God, love of God, trust in God, confidence in God is the root of all idolatry.”

    Bubba didn’t say “the” most, he said “a” most reprehensible…

    Therefore, we should be appalled by it rather than tacitly promote it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Fornication is not the most reprehensible form of idolatry, the lack of the fear of God, love of God, trust in God, confidence in God is the root of all idolatry.”

    Bubba didn’t say “the” most, he said “a” most reprehensible…

    Therefore, we should be appalled by it rather than tacitly promote it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    thus putting young men back into roles of sole authority and providership might mean also a return to a legacy of abuse that we avoid confronting because we are wedded to this idea of a “biblical” lifestyle.

    One more thing, men’s authority isn’t socially constructed, it is inherent. That is why women so naturally submit to it. As I noted above, women do what their boyfriends want, now that the higher authority men in society have decreed that men have been emancipated from marrying the women they sleep with.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    thus putting young men back into roles of sole authority and providership might mean also a return to a legacy of abuse that we avoid confronting because we are wedded to this idea of a “biblical” lifestyle.

    One more thing, men’s authority isn’t socially constructed, it is inherent. That is why women so naturally submit to it. As I noted above, women do what their boyfriends want, now that the higher authority men in society have decreed that men have been emancipated from marrying the women they sleep with.

  • Grace

    Stephen @ 53

    I agree, education is important. There is no reason why a young adult woman should marry in her teens, or before she is 21. Lots of unseen events can come about, either her husband passes away early from a disease or accident – which makes his wife sole provider for the family. The larger family may have the funds to help, but more often then not, they don’t.

    Most young families today are struggling, especially those who are raising children. Lost jobs, health insurance, homes, etc., puts a family in a vulnerable position. A wife, who is not educated has very little chance of making a living to support her family.

    Thinking ahead, before one is married, having an education is the smart option. Waiting until one is at least in their third year of university to marry, is not that difficult.

    This thread has turned into a sexual “I have to have sex now, the future isn’t the most important aspect, but my needs must be met, at any cost” is outrageous. Even if the parent indulges junior/juniorett with a paid for home, and college, .. the child never makes their own way, learning to obstain from sex, planning for the future, learning to save.

    It plays right into the SPOILED CHILD attitude we see today, all over this country.

  • Grace

    Stephen @ 53

    I agree, education is important. There is no reason why a young adult woman should marry in her teens, or before she is 21. Lots of unseen events can come about, either her husband passes away early from a disease or accident – which makes his wife sole provider for the family. The larger family may have the funds to help, but more often then not, they don’t.

    Most young families today are struggling, especially those who are raising children. Lost jobs, health insurance, homes, etc., puts a family in a vulnerable position. A wife, who is not educated has very little chance of making a living to support her family.

    Thinking ahead, before one is married, having an education is the smart option. Waiting until one is at least in their third year of university to marry, is not that difficult.

    This thread has turned into a sexual “I have to have sex now, the future isn’t the most important aspect, but my needs must be met, at any cost” is outrageous. Even if the parent indulges junior/juniorett with a paid for home, and college, .. the child never makes their own way, learning to obstain from sex, planning for the future, learning to save.

    It plays right into the SPOILED CHILD attitude we see today, all over this country.

  • Dust

    This seems like a contradiction…..on one hand you say, “scripture alone” and then your confessions say to go ahead and ignore what Paul wrote about celibacy? Also, you say “scripture alone” and NOT tradition, NOT philosophy, NOT this and NOT that, but guess that does NOT include your own BOC, etc? Thanks and….

    cheers!

  • Dust

    This seems like a contradiction…..on one hand you say, “scripture alone” and then your confessions say to go ahead and ignore what Paul wrote about celibacy? Also, you say “scripture alone” and NOT tradition, NOT philosophy, NOT this and NOT that, but guess that does NOT include your own BOC, etc? Thanks and….

    cheers!

  • larry

    Sg

    I saw the “a” very clearly and purposefully included. Its not a matter of promoting it, a false dilemma and assertion you’ve made. Rather by NOT grasping REAL idolatry and its root and emphasizing the effects of idoltray one ironically promotes that which they seek to prevent. This is why “mole hills” of external piety are made mountains, while false doctrine escapes everywhere.

    This is why if asked of unbelievers what Christianity is one gets a morality answer the (false) witness we give is obvious and thus what Paul says is true, the name of God is blasphemed by such pseudo piety. No unbeliever has ever said, “Wow those crazy Christians think Jesus /God forgives them every thing (which is intact the real Christian witness).

    No, hardly, to the heathen we are largely the “beer and sex is evil ” religion. This is consequently the atheist maker in the Christian church. Proof is hardly difficult to procure just visit and talk with some ex whatever denim. college students from the now atheist ex Roman Catholic to the exunbaptized recent Baptist youth to the poor Lutheran youth that attended too many SS unsupervised by their pastor. Their fall away stories will be roughly the same.

    One need not deny a Christian doctrine, just emphasize it differently.

  • larry

    Sg

    I saw the “a” very clearly and purposefully included. Its not a matter of promoting it, a false dilemma and assertion you’ve made. Rather by NOT grasping REAL idolatry and its root and emphasizing the effects of idoltray one ironically promotes that which they seek to prevent. This is why “mole hills” of external piety are made mountains, while false doctrine escapes everywhere.

    This is why if asked of unbelievers what Christianity is one gets a morality answer the (false) witness we give is obvious and thus what Paul says is true, the name of God is blasphemed by such pseudo piety. No unbeliever has ever said, “Wow those crazy Christians think Jesus /God forgives them every thing (which is intact the real Christian witness).

    No, hardly, to the heathen we are largely the “beer and sex is evil ” religion. This is consequently the atheist maker in the Christian church. Proof is hardly difficult to procure just visit and talk with some ex whatever denim. college students from the now atheist ex Roman Catholic to the exunbaptized recent Baptist youth to the poor Lutheran youth that attended too many SS unsupervised by their pastor. Their fall away stories will be roughly the same.

    One need not deny a Christian doctrine, just emphasize it differently.

  • Grace

    What many of you are advocating is this:

    Young people don’t need to excert ‘SELF CONTROL’ – perhaps that’s because you’ve allowed them to be OUT of CONTROL in many other aspects of their life. Think about it!

    There is no doubt that ones hormones kick in, sexual desire increases, but that doesn’t mean young adults need to have them met tout de suite. Because a couple are attracted with sexual urges, doesn’t equate to their being right for oneanother within a life long marriage.

  • Grace

    What many of you are advocating is this:

    Young people don’t need to excert ‘SELF CONTROL’ – perhaps that’s because you’ve allowed them to be OUT of CONTROL in many other aspects of their life. Think about it!

    There is no doubt that ones hormones kick in, sexual desire increases, but that doesn’t mean young adults need to have them met tout de suite. Because a couple are attracted with sexual urges, doesn’t equate to their being right for oneanother within a life long marriage.

  • larry

    No Grace that’s a stupid false accusation. What is also out of self control are lazy adults more concerned with their idolatrous pocket books and early retirements so they can sit on fat Butts and not involve themselves with sacrifice of helping raise their grandchildren.

    The real thumb sucking cry babies wanting everything now are mostly the adults. Their children merely mimic what they see.

  • larry

    No Grace that’s a stupid false accusation. What is also out of self control are lazy adults more concerned with their idolatrous pocket books and early retirements so they can sit on fat Butts and not involve themselves with sacrifice of helping raise their grandchildren.

    The real thumb sucking cry babies wanting everything now are mostly the adults. Their children merely mimic what they see.

  • larry

    True story related analogy.

    Alcohol use among the youth is similar. It goes hand in hand in colleges with the sexton issue. A couple of years ago a few family members and ass. took on some senior HS exchange students from Germany. Where alcohol is viewed differently. Especially here in the south where we have even “wet and dry” counties. Long story short in some of the hanging out together times with American students trying to sneak beer and go out on the town the German students basically rolled their eyes and said what’s the big deal (they could drink intheir country).

    This is what happens when people //nations tempt God concerning his good gifts when they listen to the voice of antichrist.

  • larry

    True story related analogy.

    Alcohol use among the youth is similar. It goes hand in hand in colleges with the sexton issue. A couple of years ago a few family members and ass. took on some senior HS exchange students from Germany. Where alcohol is viewed differently. Especially here in the south where we have even “wet and dry” counties. Long story short in some of the hanging out together times with American students trying to sneak beer and go out on the town the German students basically rolled their eyes and said what’s the big deal (they could drink intheir country).

    This is what happens when people //nations tempt God concerning his good gifts when they listen to the voice of antichrist.

  • Stephen

    sg -

    “We hear stuff like everyone is different and we need to respect differences, then we turn around and tell our kids that if they get married before they finish college, we will cut them off. ”

    Agreed. Stupid and not very merciful to our kids. I won’t do this.

    “One more thing, men’s authority isn’t socially constructed, it is inherent. That is why women so naturally submit to it. As I noted above, women do what their boyfriends want, now that the higher authority men in society have decreed that men have been emancipated from marrying the women they sleep with.”

    I get this. But should we not empower our daughters to be self-possessed enough to make better decisions about the men they are with? Men’s authority may be inherent, but it is also socially enforced by the way we raise our kids to the degree that women do not think they have choices about the way men treat them.

    I don’t know if I would agree that the abusers are always in the majority. Some kinds of abuse have been culturally enshrined. this is what is so radical about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. It is just as likely, if not more, that people of the 1st c. would hear that story and realize how radically Jesus was overturning a social norm, one that would stone a woman who had been raped (my Afghanistan example). It was okay for men at one time to spend their money at the saloon and then come home and abuse their wives and kids, enough so that women were compelled to band together to make it stop. That sort of thing caught on precisely because it was NOT so rare it seems to me.

    I know that those are extremes. I see what you are saying about a dominant ethos of our age. But I’m not sure we give our kids, and for that matter our faith, that much credit if we seek a one-sized fits all solution. In what sense would you say that your idea is not reactionary? Could there be a range of solutions or ways to channel our kids into various possibilities? There are plenty of women suited to graduate school, professional careers and leadership. I’m not clear if you disagree with this completely or just generally feel it is a bad idea to encourage women to take on these kinds of things.

    Again, I do actually admire much of what you say and I want to hear more. I agree that the church should not simply acquiesce to the trends of our time. So what does it mean to live in the world and not be of the world at the same time?

    “So, the new order didn’t fix anything.”

    That’s just it. The old order was fraught with problems. Examples of it in the extreme still exist in our world and they are horrifying. How is what you are talking about different than both? Maybe you have expressed this and I’m dense.

  • Stephen

    sg -

    “We hear stuff like everyone is different and we need to respect differences, then we turn around and tell our kids that if they get married before they finish college, we will cut them off. ”

    Agreed. Stupid and not very merciful to our kids. I won’t do this.

    “One more thing, men’s authority isn’t socially constructed, it is inherent. That is why women so naturally submit to it. As I noted above, women do what their boyfriends want, now that the higher authority men in society have decreed that men have been emancipated from marrying the women they sleep with.”

    I get this. But should we not empower our daughters to be self-possessed enough to make better decisions about the men they are with? Men’s authority may be inherent, but it is also socially enforced by the way we raise our kids to the degree that women do not think they have choices about the way men treat them.

    I don’t know if I would agree that the abusers are always in the majority. Some kinds of abuse have been culturally enshrined. this is what is so radical about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. It is just as likely, if not more, that people of the 1st c. would hear that story and realize how radically Jesus was overturning a social norm, one that would stone a woman who had been raped (my Afghanistan example). It was okay for men at one time to spend their money at the saloon and then come home and abuse their wives and kids, enough so that women were compelled to band together to make it stop. That sort of thing caught on precisely because it was NOT so rare it seems to me.

    I know that those are extremes. I see what you are saying about a dominant ethos of our age. But I’m not sure we give our kids, and for that matter our faith, that much credit if we seek a one-sized fits all solution. In what sense would you say that your idea is not reactionary? Could there be a range of solutions or ways to channel our kids into various possibilities? There are plenty of women suited to graduate school, professional careers and leadership. I’m not clear if you disagree with this completely or just generally feel it is a bad idea to encourage women to take on these kinds of things.

    Again, I do actually admire much of what you say and I want to hear more. I agree that the church should not simply acquiesce to the trends of our time. So what does it mean to live in the world and not be of the world at the same time?

    “So, the new order didn’t fix anything.”

    That’s just it. The old order was fraught with problems. Examples of it in the extreme still exist in our world and they are horrifying. How is what you are talking about different than both? Maybe you have expressed this and I’m dense.

  • Grace

    larry @62

    “What is also out of self control are lazy adults more concerned with their idolatrous pocket books and early retirements so they can sit on fat Butts and not involve themselves with sacrifice of helping raise their grandchildren.”

    That’s just about the nuttiest idea I’ve read in a very long time.

    People are not rolling in cash. Perhaps you don’t understand the real world as of NOW. Those who have had money, owned business, very successful have lost most of what they worked for. They are working hard to cut back, and regroup their resources so they can build their business back up. They aren’t spending money on nonsense. In order to build their once successful business back, they have used their “retirement savings” –

    My husband is in banking, he knows the effects of this economy, the hardships most buisness owners are facing. It’s most difficult.

    Young adults can pitch in, zip up their pants and get moving into educational persuits and study, getting a part time job, and stop blubbering about their tough mean parents!

  • Grace

    larry @62

    “What is also out of self control are lazy adults more concerned with their idolatrous pocket books and early retirements so they can sit on fat Butts and not involve themselves with sacrifice of helping raise their grandchildren.”

    That’s just about the nuttiest idea I’ve read in a very long time.

    People are not rolling in cash. Perhaps you don’t understand the real world as of NOW. Those who have had money, owned business, very successful have lost most of what they worked for. They are working hard to cut back, and regroup their resources so they can build their business back up. They aren’t spending money on nonsense. In order to build their once successful business back, they have used their “retirement savings” –

    My husband is in banking, he knows the effects of this economy, the hardships most buisness owners are facing. It’s most difficult.

    Young adults can pitch in, zip up their pants and get moving into educational persuits and study, getting a part time job, and stop blubbering about their tough mean parents!

  • Grace

    Larry @62

    I have another news bulletin for you:

    You might not hear or see, all the parents who have taken their children and grandchildren to live with them – the reason? – they lost their job. While all this is going on, the grandparents are both working, often the father is trying to hold his buisness together, coming up tired, with grandchildren wanting attention, which he nor his wife can give. They aren’t 30 anymore, they have both worked all day, coming up to their grown children, their daughter has a job, WHY? she attended university, obtained a degree, which enables her to go back to a career that will enable she and the children to live once again, without the help of her parents.

    Women need to get an education.

  • Grace

    Larry @62

    I have another news bulletin for you:

    You might not hear or see, all the parents who have taken their children and grandchildren to live with them – the reason? – they lost their job. While all this is going on, the grandparents are both working, often the father is trying to hold his buisness together, coming up tired, with grandchildren wanting attention, which he nor his wife can give. They aren’t 30 anymore, they have both worked all day, coming up to their grown children, their daughter has a job, WHY? she attended university, obtained a degree, which enables her to go back to a career that will enable she and the children to live once again, without the help of her parents.

    Women need to get an education.

  • Bw

    What about encouraging family friendly environments on college campuses? I mean, making it easier, and being more supportive for families with kids to also attend college? I know graduate students in many cases already have kids and a full time job and are going for their master’s, but what about making it easier at the undergraduate level? More affordable child care, financial aid, etc. This could also cut down on the amount of abortions, if people feel like they can support a baby while going for their degree. I realize the economy is in a bad spot, but it’s an idea.

  • Bw

    What about encouraging family friendly environments on college campuses? I mean, making it easier, and being more supportive for families with kids to also attend college? I know graduate students in many cases already have kids and a full time job and are going for their master’s, but what about making it easier at the undergraduate level? More affordable child care, financial aid, etc. This could also cut down on the amount of abortions, if people feel like they can support a baby while going for their degree. I realize the economy is in a bad spot, but it’s an idea.

  • Grace

    BW @68

    YOU WROTE: “but what about making it easier at the undergraduate level? More affordable child care, financial aid, etc. This could also cut down on the amount of abortions, if people feel like they can support a baby while going for their degree. I realize the economy is in a bad spot, but it’s an idea.”

    It costs money, that money comes from tax payers. We cannot afford to build more student housing, provide child care, financial aid – – the taxpayers cannot afford it.

    Abortion will not end because we give people more ‘stuff’ – it will end when they finally believe it is murder. Even married couples seek abortions.

    Anyone can come up with ideas to make ‘someone else’ pay to eliminate sin, but that isn’t a viable option. It’s wrapped up in self indulgence, self gratification, with no responsibility.

  • Grace

    BW @68

    YOU WROTE: “but what about making it easier at the undergraduate level? More affordable child care, financial aid, etc. This could also cut down on the amount of abortions, if people feel like they can support a baby while going for their degree. I realize the economy is in a bad spot, but it’s an idea.”

    It costs money, that money comes from tax payers. We cannot afford to build more student housing, provide child care, financial aid – – the taxpayers cannot afford it.

    Abortion will not end because we give people more ‘stuff’ – it will end when they finally believe it is murder. Even married couples seek abortions.

    Anyone can come up with ideas to make ‘someone else’ pay to eliminate sin, but that isn’t a viable option. It’s wrapped up in self indulgence, self gratification, with no responsibility.

  • Grace

    This thread is about Sex and the single Christian – have we lost sight of the real problem here? I believe so.

    Bible believing churches need to step up to the plate and talk straight, regarding sex – they need to make young adults realize they ‘do understand’ how difficult it is, (after all they were ONCE unmarried, with hormoes raging before they married, and were able to enjoy sex) the sexual urges are strong, not beating around the bush, getting embarrassed, and acting like sex is a forbidden subject.

    Waiting a few years before marriage is not unreasonable. No one meets another, and then two months later jumps into marriage.

  • Grace

    This thread is about Sex and the single Christian – have we lost sight of the real problem here? I believe so.

    Bible believing churches need to step up to the plate and talk straight, regarding sex – they need to make young adults realize they ‘do understand’ how difficult it is, (after all they were ONCE unmarried, with hormoes raging before they married, and were able to enjoy sex) the sexual urges are strong, not beating around the bush, getting embarrassed, and acting like sex is a forbidden subject.

    Waiting a few years before marriage is not unreasonable. No one meets another, and then two months later jumps into marriage.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I get this. But should we not empower our daughters to be self-possessed enough to make better decisions about the men they are with?”

    Sounds good, but we are fighting women’s nature in trying to do that and empowering their lusts and flesh (see Eat, Love, Pray for a view of “empowered” woman abusing a faithful spouse) not necessarily their better judgement. Better for dads to be genuinely helpful and take a good look at guys that their daughters date, etc.

    Men’s authority may be inherent, but it is also socially enforced by the way we raise our kids to the degree that women do not think they have choices about the way men treat them.

    Nah, women are more deferential to guys with more aggressive personalities. It is not the way we raise them. It is the way we are born. So, you have to help kids acknowledge and fight their sinful nature and look for actual good qualities in a spouse, not just settle for those that stir base passion. Plenty of young women have gone along with an exciting but bad boyfriend and later find a good guy. They just need help and encouragement to pass on the bad ones and pick the good ones.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I get this. But should we not empower our daughters to be self-possessed enough to make better decisions about the men they are with?”

    Sounds good, but we are fighting women’s nature in trying to do that and empowering their lusts and flesh (see Eat, Love, Pray for a view of “empowered” woman abusing a faithful spouse) not necessarily their better judgement. Better for dads to be genuinely helpful and take a good look at guys that their daughters date, etc.

    Men’s authority may be inherent, but it is also socially enforced by the way we raise our kids to the degree that women do not think they have choices about the way men treat them.

    Nah, women are more deferential to guys with more aggressive personalities. It is not the way we raise them. It is the way we are born. So, you have to help kids acknowledge and fight their sinful nature and look for actual good qualities in a spouse, not just settle for those that stir base passion. Plenty of young women have gone along with an exciting but bad boyfriend and later find a good guy. They just need help and encouragement to pass on the bad ones and pick the good ones.

  • larry

    Grace I don’t think we are really disagreeing., this predates the past 2, 4, 10, 20, 40 plus years. The present economy is a tiny slice of time and has not been going on for the duration of the irresponsible adults.

    Furthermore, the extension of promiscuity extends well beyond poverty. In fact some of the tightest family homes I personally know are poor and large but they sacrifice to help each other. In fact my friend in the above real life account came from poverty you and I mostly see from afar.

    Many youth are driven away into this precisely for the reasons you stated last, the pretend squimishness and psuedo piety. Hence my example of that real foolish chant to the youth about sec being “evil ” which is to blaspheme Gods creation.

    The fact is most in this country are far more interested in there retirement accounts than raising there children as both left and right politics this very day show and all they talk about.

  • larry

    Grace I don’t think we are really disagreeing., this predates the past 2, 4, 10, 20, 40 plus years. The present economy is a tiny slice of time and has not been going on for the duration of the irresponsible adults.

    Furthermore, the extension of promiscuity extends well beyond poverty. In fact some of the tightest family homes I personally know are poor and large but they sacrifice to help each other. In fact my friend in the above real life account came from poverty you and I mostly see from afar.

    Many youth are driven away into this precisely for the reasons you stated last, the pretend squimishness and psuedo piety. Hence my example of that real foolish chant to the youth about sec being “evil ” which is to blaspheme Gods creation.

    The fact is most in this country are far more interested in there retirement accounts than raising there children as both left and right politics this very day show and all they talk about.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It was okay for men at one time to spend their money at the saloon and then come home and abuse their wives and kids,

    Yeah, like in Congo. Real people really suffering horrible abuse and the higher authority men don’t exercise that authority to defend the weaker members of society. Very sad.

    enough so that women were compelled to band together to make it stop. That sort of thing caught on precisely because it was NOT so rare it seems to me.

    Yeah, what you describe did not happen. Check the historical record. Women’s rights are guaranteed by the higher status males enforcing the rules. Period. By the time educated empowered western women finally took to the streets to demand rights, they already had more rights than most of the men on this planet. Look, those women were educated and defended by men who valued women, plain and simple. Women have never secured their own rights. It just does not happen.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It was okay for men at one time to spend their money at the saloon and then come home and abuse their wives and kids,

    Yeah, like in Congo. Real people really suffering horrible abuse and the higher authority men don’t exercise that authority to defend the weaker members of society. Very sad.

    enough so that women were compelled to band together to make it stop. That sort of thing caught on precisely because it was NOT so rare it seems to me.

    Yeah, what you describe did not happen. Check the historical record. Women’s rights are guaranteed by the higher status males enforcing the rules. Period. By the time educated empowered western women finally took to the streets to demand rights, they already had more rights than most of the men on this planet. Look, those women were educated and defended by men who valued women, plain and simple. Women have never secured their own rights. It just does not happen.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    There is no reason why a young adult woman should marry in her teens, or before she is 21.

    yes, there is a reason. It is very hard to maintain continent chastity. It is better to marry than fall into sin. The callous attitude that people should suck it up leads to sin. The Biblical advice is to just marry. Continent chastity of the long term sort is a gift given to very few. I wouldn’t bet that my kids have it. There is no reason in the Bible for young people not to marry. Poverty is not given as a reason for a woman not to marry. She is 18 and poor, therefore she shouldn’t marry a stable guy with a regular income. Nope, that argument is not in the Bible.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    There is no reason why a young adult woman should marry in her teens, or before she is 21.

    yes, there is a reason. It is very hard to maintain continent chastity. It is better to marry than fall into sin. The callous attitude that people should suck it up leads to sin. The Biblical advice is to just marry. Continent chastity of the long term sort is a gift given to very few. I wouldn’t bet that my kids have it. There is no reason in the Bible for young people not to marry. Poverty is not given as a reason for a woman not to marry. She is 18 and poor, therefore she shouldn’t marry a stable guy with a regular income. Nope, that argument is not in the Bible.

  • Grace

    Larry @72

    YOU WROTE: “The fact is most in this country are far more interested in there retirement accounts than raising there children as both left and right politics this very day show and all they talk about.”

    I disagree with you, based on my husbands business and position, and our overall observations within our communities, and family.

    People are not more interested in their “retierment funds” over and above their childrens welfare. I’ve known those who have drawn out their “retirement funds” mortgaged their homes to help their grown children and grandchildren. It’s a common occurrence in the day in which we live.

    Those who are privy to finance, and banking, are more aware of how and what people do, to improve their childrens lives, during this difficult time we find ourselves, in this country. Their friends may never know the sacrifices parents are making for their children to survive financially today – they don’t discuss personal, private business. You might be very surprised, if you knew the circumstances up close.

    Small business has taken a huge hit, those who own them try very hard to keep their employees, .. the ones who work for them are not aware of the dire position the owners deal with everyday, as they watch their efforts melt like jello.

    The employees look at their employer and his home, and feel it’s not fair, but in essence, their employer cannot afford to sell his home, he’s got a family, kids who have come back home to live. The home is no longer worth what it was, 5 years ago, the loss is too great. However, the employee has no ability to understand the circumstances, all he sees is himself – he never takes into the equation how hard his employer is trying to keep him employed. It’s lost on him -

  • Grace

    Larry @72

    YOU WROTE: “The fact is most in this country are far more interested in there retirement accounts than raising there children as both left and right politics this very day show and all they talk about.”

    I disagree with you, based on my husbands business and position, and our overall observations within our communities, and family.

    People are not more interested in their “retierment funds” over and above their childrens welfare. I’ve known those who have drawn out their “retirement funds” mortgaged their homes to help their grown children and grandchildren. It’s a common occurrence in the day in which we live.

    Those who are privy to finance, and banking, are more aware of how and what people do, to improve their childrens lives, during this difficult time we find ourselves, in this country. Their friends may never know the sacrifices parents are making for their children to survive financially today – they don’t discuss personal, private business. You might be very surprised, if you knew the circumstances up close.

    Small business has taken a huge hit, those who own them try very hard to keep their employees, .. the ones who work for them are not aware of the dire position the owners deal with everyday, as they watch their efforts melt like jello.

    The employees look at their employer and his home, and feel it’s not fair, but in essence, their employer cannot afford to sell his home, he’s got a family, kids who have come back home to live. The home is no longer worth what it was, 5 years ago, the loss is too great. However, the employee has no ability to understand the circumstances, all he sees is himself – he never takes into the equation how hard his employer is trying to keep him employed. It’s lost on him -

  • larry

    Bw,

    You are alluding to a good point. The American mindset is wait, don’t marry get your degree at 22 plus, stash some bucks back then think about getting married. Anyone that’s had kids knows the money is always thin. But the foreign students are plentious at every university ive been that come in married with kids and kids on the way while they pursue therlir degrees and live in family housing. In fact they are often the hardest working students.

    Holding off marriage and kids for this pie in the sky “ill have enough money then” is nothing less than a form of idolatry, again Americas bank account obsession.

  • larry

    Bw,

    You are alluding to a good point. The American mindset is wait, don’t marry get your degree at 22 plus, stash some bucks back then think about getting married. Anyone that’s had kids knows the money is always thin. But the foreign students are plentious at every university ive been that come in married with kids and kids on the way while they pursue therlir degrees and live in family housing. In fact they are often the hardest working students.

    Holding off marriage and kids for this pie in the sky “ill have enough money then” is nothing less than a form of idolatry, again Americas bank account obsession.

  • Grace

    Larry,

    I don’t know where you live, but here in California, many, many young people have gone back home to live, even after college, and before – the reason is, jobs are scarce.

    One of the markets where we shop, has laid off 14 more employees just three weeks ago – it wasn’t the first time. These were people who had been there a long time. Fast food restaurants are another example, they lay off as well – people are staying home, rarely eating out, trying to conserve enough funds to keep their homes.

    Because my husband is in banking, he sees more than the average person, and knows how difficult the economy really is.

    You’re stuck on “retirement funds” – you would be wise to give up such a mean spirited attack on those who have done everything they can to help their grown children.

  • Grace

    Larry,

    I don’t know where you live, but here in California, many, many young people have gone back home to live, even after college, and before – the reason is, jobs are scarce.

    One of the markets where we shop, has laid off 14 more employees just three weeks ago – it wasn’t the first time. These were people who had been there a long time. Fast food restaurants are another example, they lay off as well – people are staying home, rarely eating out, trying to conserve enough funds to keep their homes.

    Because my husband is in banking, he sees more than the average person, and knows how difficult the economy really is.

    You’re stuck on “retirement funds” – you would be wise to give up such a mean spirited attack on those who have done everything they can to help their grown children.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t know where you live, but here in California, many, many young people have gone back home to live, even after college, and before – the reason is, jobs are scarce.

    Plenty of jobs picking lettuce and strawberries. Oh wait, those are only for easily abused foreigners. Americans won’t tolerate such abuse. Will ya lookie there. I am off topic. Never mind.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t know where you live, but here in California, many, many young people have gone back home to live, even after college, and before – the reason is, jobs are scarce.

    Plenty of jobs picking lettuce and strawberries. Oh wait, those are only for easily abused foreigners. Americans won’t tolerate such abuse. Will ya lookie there. I am off topic. Never mind.

  • Grace

    A very important point to be made is this:

    The majority of children at any age, do not welcome their parents into their homes to live, once they are unable to live alone, either because both have physical problems, or one parent has passed away. They move them into a ‘retirement facility’ or ‘assistant living’ both of which are lonely for their parents. This isn’t just isolated, it’s WIDE SPREAD. So much for all the financial gifts, loving care, babysitting, and all the funds their children asked for, simply because they didn’t plan ahead –

    SO, before you jump up and down, demanding parents pitch in, look around at who is taking care of whom, when the chips are down.

    Where we live there are MANY Asians. One of the most interesting observations we’ve made is; they take care of their parents, they invite their parents to live with them. They do everything as a family, mom and dad get the bedroom downstairs, so they don’t have to climb stairs.

    It’s the Anglo crowd, who’s parents are left to live apart from family – after all, they would be better taken care of, in a facility rather than their children’s home, with grandchildren and the joy of old age.

    We have observed this for years, it’s sickening.

    My husbands sister a nurse, was wonderful when his father was sick and dying. She moved in, made the meals, nursed him until the moment he passed away. My sister in law lived with and took care of their mom until she died just recently. My husbands sister kept her condo, rented it out, while she lived with my husbands parents. Now that’s love, that’s what it’s all about, but very few take care of their parents.

  • Grace

    A very important point to be made is this:

    The majority of children at any age, do not welcome their parents into their homes to live, once they are unable to live alone, either because both have physical problems, or one parent has passed away. They move them into a ‘retirement facility’ or ‘assistant living’ both of which are lonely for their parents. This isn’t just isolated, it’s WIDE SPREAD. So much for all the financial gifts, loving care, babysitting, and all the funds their children asked for, simply because they didn’t plan ahead –

    SO, before you jump up and down, demanding parents pitch in, look around at who is taking care of whom, when the chips are down.

    Where we live there are MANY Asians. One of the most interesting observations we’ve made is; they take care of their parents, they invite their parents to live with them. They do everything as a family, mom and dad get the bedroom downstairs, so they don’t have to climb stairs.

    It’s the Anglo crowd, who’s parents are left to live apart from family – after all, they would be better taken care of, in a facility rather than their children’s home, with grandchildren and the joy of old age.

    We have observed this for years, it’s sickening.

    My husbands sister a nurse, was wonderful when his father was sick and dying. She moved in, made the meals, nursed him until the moment he passed away. My sister in law lived with and took care of their mom until she died just recently. My husbands sister kept her condo, rented it out, while she lived with my husbands parents. Now that’s love, that’s what it’s all about, but very few take care of their parents.

  • Larry

    Grace,

    You can stop your tired old hippy “mean guy” stuff, that kind of false accusation and emotionalism doesn’t effect me in the least. Here have a tissue.

  • Larry

    Grace,

    You can stop your tired old hippy “mean guy” stuff, that kind of false accusation and emotionalism doesn’t effect me in the least. Here have a tissue.

  • Grace

    Larry,

    Your ‘ole claim of “retirment funds’ is ignorant. So you can take “emotionalism” and wear it on your sleve, along with your tissues.

    Whatever “hippy” has to do with it, I don’t know, is that the era you lived in? – is that the grudge you’re carrying around, for who knows how long?

  • Grace

    Larry,

    Your ‘ole claim of “retirment funds’ is ignorant. So you can take “emotionalism” and wear it on your sleve, along with your tissues.

    Whatever “hippy” has to do with it, I don’t know, is that the era you lived in? – is that the grudge you’re carrying around, for who knows how long?

  • fws

    sg @ 74

    Amen! Preach it!

    You exquisitely summarize EXACTLY what the Lutheran Confessions teach in Augustana/Apology art XXIII
    and in the Large Catechism 6th commandment.

    sg: have you consider that perhaps it is the Law that God has placed in the conscience of gays that is driving them to seek out monogamous relationships for the same reasons you give, because they realize that whoring around leads to ruinous consequences?

    One might not agree with homosexuality, or find it disgusting or wierd, but at the same time, God drives all men in their conscience in a certain direction. Often we must suffer before we really get it and learn to avoid that sorta pain by self restraint.

    I have counselled lots of teen gays. Telling them to “save it’ for a wedding night that will never come is not terribly realistic. What is the realistic best alternative? Shame, hiding, dishonestly, and furtive sex?

  • fws

    sg @ 74

    Amen! Preach it!

    You exquisitely summarize EXACTLY what the Lutheran Confessions teach in Augustana/Apology art XXIII
    and in the Large Catechism 6th commandment.

    sg: have you consider that perhaps it is the Law that God has placed in the conscience of gays that is driving them to seek out monogamous relationships for the same reasons you give, because they realize that whoring around leads to ruinous consequences?

    One might not agree with homosexuality, or find it disgusting or wierd, but at the same time, God drives all men in their conscience in a certain direction. Often we must suffer before we really get it and learn to avoid that sorta pain by self restraint.

    I have counselled lots of teen gays. Telling them to “save it’ for a wedding night that will never come is not terribly realistic. What is the realistic best alternative? Shame, hiding, dishonestly, and furtive sex?

  • Grace

    “I have counselled lots of teen gays. Telling them to “save it’ for a wedding night that will never come is not terribly realistic. What is the realistic best alternative? Shame, hiding, dishonestly, and furtive sex?”

    As often is the case fws, you turn a discussion which has nothing to do with homosexuality into your fav topic. :roll:

  • Grace

    “I have counselled lots of teen gays. Telling them to “save it’ for a wedding night that will never come is not terribly realistic. What is the realistic best alternative? Shame, hiding, dishonestly, and furtive sex?”

    As often is the case fws, you turn a discussion which has nothing to do with homosexuality into your fav topic. :roll:

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    I’m not a pastor but I am a physician. I counsel my teeanage patients (with their parents present in the room) thus:

    “I’m sure that your parents would prefer that you wait until you are older/married until you have sex. However, if you chose to disregard their advice and have sex anyway, please, please use birth control pills and condoms.

    You don’t want to be a mother/father at age 15, do you? You also don’t want to get a life-long disease like herpes or a potentially fatal disease like AIDS.

    Your parents advice to wait is the best option. But if you chose to have sex, please remember my advice. Your life could be drastically and permanently changed if you don’t!

    Hopefully you will discuss this issue with your parents before you make a decision. But if you don’t, in this state, you can come to me or another physician and obtain contraception without parental consent and with complete confidentiality.”

    My final comment: I know that some conservative purists won’t like my point of view, but Sarah Palin’s daughter is the perfect example of what happens when Christian parents believe that just telling/teaching their children to wait is good enough. It isn’t.

    I suggest the LCMS continue to preach and hold to Scriptural standards. Let parents, teens, and physicians handle the nuances of this issue.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    I’m not a pastor but I am a physician. I counsel my teeanage patients (with their parents present in the room) thus:

    “I’m sure that your parents would prefer that you wait until you are older/married until you have sex. However, if you chose to disregard their advice and have sex anyway, please, please use birth control pills and condoms.

    You don’t want to be a mother/father at age 15, do you? You also don’t want to get a life-long disease like herpes or a potentially fatal disease like AIDS.

    Your parents advice to wait is the best option. But if you chose to have sex, please remember my advice. Your life could be drastically and permanently changed if you don’t!

    Hopefully you will discuss this issue with your parents before you make a decision. But if you don’t, in this state, you can come to me or another physician and obtain contraception without parental consent and with complete confidentiality.”

    My final comment: I know that some conservative purists won’t like my point of view, but Sarah Palin’s daughter is the perfect example of what happens when Christian parents believe that just telling/teaching their children to wait is good enough. It isn’t.

    I suggest the LCMS continue to preach and hold to Scriptural standards. Let parents, teens, and physicians handle the nuances of this issue.

  • fws

    gary @ 84

    “I suggest the LCMS continue to preach and hold to Scriptural standards. Let parents, teens, and physicians handle the nuances of this issue.”

    What sg says about this.

  • fws

    gary @ 84

    “I suggest the LCMS continue to preach and hold to Scriptural standards. Let parents, teens, and physicians handle the nuances of this issue.”

    What sg says about this.

  • Larry

    You are such an emotional basket case Grace. Here have another tissue.

  • Larry

    You are such an emotional basket case Grace. Here have another tissue.

  • Larry

    It’s not about the money solving the problem. Its personal investment of people with people. Americans think money is going to solve everything and its most obvious in both political arenas and deeply seated in our cultural DNA. The disconnect is not a lack of money given to kids or abundance given to them, but a lack of involvement with them.

    Closeness of the family the keeps things solid, definitely not the money as large poor families who stay involved survive quite happily through hardships just as similarly do those with fair amounts of money hold together, again not due to the money but the involvement of the family members in each other’s lives. The money is utterly irrelevant either way, that’s the false dilemma and idol. The two constants are this: the money have or have not is irrelevant and the family involvement have or have not is utterly relevant. But the modern American secular and evangelical “wisdom” (and it is not biblical wisdom) wish to “plan for the family first” because they more fear, love and trust money and not God. So their dubious “sage” advice is to wait for marriage, which sets up the failure of burning with desire outside of marriage, until the god money becomes more available. During such, the desire burns and one thing leads to another.

    Similarly the sex issue. I’ve seen it time and time again. What happens? A person in a family, usually a Christian home in a pietistic surrounding, with the “great” dream of waiting to get married (do college first, stuff some money away until you are “ready”) as the fools advice goes. So they do this, but then yes desire burns as they come of age and continue and many times they slip up. Usually the girl bares the brunt of this then. She’s pregnant and either explicitly in some churches or silently implied in others, she’s an embarrassment to everyone and a GREAT disappointment, a blemish on their “witness” as I’ve heard it stated before (as if that’s the Christian churches true witness). And this psychological stoning is what drives them away.

    Thus, part of the problem is the lack of an INVOLVED family (and yes church) support system. We are like the government who preaches “kids this” and “no child left behind that” and then we throw money at them. That’s not the solution, that’s the problem. It’s much easier for one to hand a family member some cash, than to involve themselves in the day to day grind and grit of raising kids. Much easier to buy the new parents a years supply of diapers, much harder and more involved in actually changing those diapers for them once in a while and actually HELP them out. This was part of the point Frank’s post on the catechism being made about the grandparents and extended family helping and supporting them.

    The (false) church is as much obsessed with the sex issue as are rank pornographers, one’s just a “dry drunk” and the other a “wet drunk”. The great irony that shows this is that the psychological ‘sex shame’ is precisely the same for the individual person in the above setting at many fine white devil churches, as it is for the promiscuous person at black devil venues of promiscuity.

    And what I find most amusing is how adults pretend to think in the past tense as to their own “hormone” rages and urges. That’s hogwash as any honest person knows, 20 or 70+ and all ages in between, those desires are always there in a strong rage. The later increasingly as they age just tend to have a less than cooperative body, and EVERYBODY personally knows that. Furthermore, kids read right through the hypocrisy of a married adult now able to subdue their desires in the appropriate way saying contradictorily (1) wait until you are ready to get married, college, job and stuff, BUT (2) don’t have sex for the next 10 years of your life while you wait. The WHOLE point of Paul’s advice is BECAUSE people DO burn with passion. Thus, peoples advice like Graces which basically boils down to “Go take a cold shower” fails impotently because its not reality in the least. Kids, especially teens, believe it or not are not that stupid and know hypocrisy when they hear it. It’s equivalent to praying, “I thank you God (now) that I’m not like those hormone enraged teenagers and 20 somethings…so high on my perch I’m here to help…wait and go take a cold shower you out of control hormone enraged teen/20 something”.

  • Larry

    It’s not about the money solving the problem. Its personal investment of people with people. Americans think money is going to solve everything and its most obvious in both political arenas and deeply seated in our cultural DNA. The disconnect is not a lack of money given to kids or abundance given to them, but a lack of involvement with them.

    Closeness of the family the keeps things solid, definitely not the money as large poor families who stay involved survive quite happily through hardships just as similarly do those with fair amounts of money hold together, again not due to the money but the involvement of the family members in each other’s lives. The money is utterly irrelevant either way, that’s the false dilemma and idol. The two constants are this: the money have or have not is irrelevant and the family involvement have or have not is utterly relevant. But the modern American secular and evangelical “wisdom” (and it is not biblical wisdom) wish to “plan for the family first” because they more fear, love and trust money and not God. So their dubious “sage” advice is to wait for marriage, which sets up the failure of burning with desire outside of marriage, until the god money becomes more available. During such, the desire burns and one thing leads to another.

    Similarly the sex issue. I’ve seen it time and time again. What happens? A person in a family, usually a Christian home in a pietistic surrounding, with the “great” dream of waiting to get married (do college first, stuff some money away until you are “ready”) as the fools advice goes. So they do this, but then yes desire burns as they come of age and continue and many times they slip up. Usually the girl bares the brunt of this then. She’s pregnant and either explicitly in some churches or silently implied in others, she’s an embarrassment to everyone and a GREAT disappointment, a blemish on their “witness” as I’ve heard it stated before (as if that’s the Christian churches true witness). And this psychological stoning is what drives them away.

    Thus, part of the problem is the lack of an INVOLVED family (and yes church) support system. We are like the government who preaches “kids this” and “no child left behind that” and then we throw money at them. That’s not the solution, that’s the problem. It’s much easier for one to hand a family member some cash, than to involve themselves in the day to day grind and grit of raising kids. Much easier to buy the new parents a years supply of diapers, much harder and more involved in actually changing those diapers for them once in a while and actually HELP them out. This was part of the point Frank’s post on the catechism being made about the grandparents and extended family helping and supporting them.

    The (false) church is as much obsessed with the sex issue as are rank pornographers, one’s just a “dry drunk” and the other a “wet drunk”. The great irony that shows this is that the psychological ‘sex shame’ is precisely the same for the individual person in the above setting at many fine white devil churches, as it is for the promiscuous person at black devil venues of promiscuity.

    And what I find most amusing is how adults pretend to think in the past tense as to their own “hormone” rages and urges. That’s hogwash as any honest person knows, 20 or 70+ and all ages in between, those desires are always there in a strong rage. The later increasingly as they age just tend to have a less than cooperative body, and EVERYBODY personally knows that. Furthermore, kids read right through the hypocrisy of a married adult now able to subdue their desires in the appropriate way saying contradictorily (1) wait until you are ready to get married, college, job and stuff, BUT (2) don’t have sex for the next 10 years of your life while you wait. The WHOLE point of Paul’s advice is BECAUSE people DO burn with passion. Thus, peoples advice like Graces which basically boils down to “Go take a cold shower” fails impotently because its not reality in the least. Kids, especially teens, believe it or not are not that stupid and know hypocrisy when they hear it. It’s equivalent to praying, “I thank you God (now) that I’m not like those hormone enraged teenagers and 20 somethings…so high on my perch I’m here to help…wait and go take a cold shower you out of control hormone enraged teen/20 something”.

  • Grace

    Gary @84

    I find your position as a physician to be disturbing at best.

    Your advice, undermines the very core of what the Bible teaches, .. therefore giving an escape to sidestep the results of sin. It is the very souls of these young women to whom you wave a white flag.

    YOU WROTE: “Hopefully you will discuss this issue with your parents before you make a decision. But if you don’t, in this state, you can come to me or another physician and obtain contraception without parental consent and with complete confidentiality.”

    A doctor (Christian?) offering to help a young teen have sex?

    CDC – Condom Effectiveness

    “Epidemiologic studies that compare infection rates among condom users and nonusers provide evidence that latex condoms provide limited protection against syphilis and herpes simplex virus-2 transmission. No conclusive studies have specifically addressed the transmission of chancroid and condom use, although several studies have documented a reduced risk of genital ulcers associated with increased condom use in settings where chancroid is a leading cause of genital ulcers”

    So much for complete protection.

    “I suggest the LCMS continue to preach and hold to Scriptural standards. Let parents, teens, and physicians handle the nuances of this issue.”

    Where is God in this issue – so it’s just the physicians and parents who handle the “nuances” – yes there are shades, in this case they are aren’t Biblical.

  • Grace

    Gary @84

    I find your position as a physician to be disturbing at best.

    Your advice, undermines the very core of what the Bible teaches, .. therefore giving an escape to sidestep the results of sin. It is the very souls of these young women to whom you wave a white flag.

    YOU WROTE: “Hopefully you will discuss this issue with your parents before you make a decision. But if you don’t, in this state, you can come to me or another physician and obtain contraception without parental consent and with complete confidentiality.”

    A doctor (Christian?) offering to help a young teen have sex?

    CDC – Condom Effectiveness

    “Epidemiologic studies that compare infection rates among condom users and nonusers provide evidence that latex condoms provide limited protection against syphilis and herpes simplex virus-2 transmission. No conclusive studies have specifically addressed the transmission of chancroid and condom use, although several studies have documented a reduced risk of genital ulcers associated with increased condom use in settings where chancroid is a leading cause of genital ulcers”

    So much for complete protection.

    “I suggest the LCMS continue to preach and hold to Scriptural standards. Let parents, teens, and physicians handle the nuances of this issue.”

    Where is God in this issue – so it’s just the physicians and parents who handle the “nuances” – yes there are shades, in this case they are aren’t Biblical.

  • BW

    Larry,

    I think a family-supportive campus is not out of the question. I don’t think child care centers would be unrealistic. My alma matter has an elementary school on campus for the College of Education, to help train teachers. Why not expand it to child care? Again, just an idea. You couple that financial aid, both federal and state, supportive families behind them, and churches willing to assist young couples, it sounds feasible.

    As a sidenote, I too heard people say, when I was in college, “My dad told me if I get a girl pregnant, I’m gonna be cut off” or “I’m on my own in that situation.”

  • BW

    Larry,

    I think a family-supportive campus is not out of the question. I don’t think child care centers would be unrealistic. My alma matter has an elementary school on campus for the College of Education, to help train teachers. Why not expand it to child care? Again, just an idea. You couple that financial aid, both federal and state, supportive families behind them, and churches willing to assist young couples, it sounds feasible.

    As a sidenote, I too heard people say, when I was in college, “My dad told me if I get a girl pregnant, I’m gonna be cut off” or “I’m on my own in that situation.”

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    With all due respect, you need to do some more reading, Grace.

    The spread of AIDS has drastically slowed in both the gay community in this country and in the straight community in Africa due to the use of condoms. Thousands less people are suffering and dying of this plague.

    You can continue to preach your purist position. However, I would like to see your reaction when your child or grandchild comes to you and tells you that they are pregnant or worse have AIDS.

    The Church should preach the Bible to young people: “all sex outside of marriage is a sin.”

    However if your child or grandchild comes to me as a physician for assistance to protect themselves from pregnancy or a deadly disease, I will help them, with the above stated advice and assistance, and without judging them. That is my job as a physician.

    I am willing to face the consequeces before my God if my decision is against His will.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    With all due respect, you need to do some more reading, Grace.

    The spread of AIDS has drastically slowed in both the gay community in this country and in the straight community in Africa due to the use of condoms. Thousands less people are suffering and dying of this plague.

    You can continue to preach your purist position. However, I would like to see your reaction when your child or grandchild comes to you and tells you that they are pregnant or worse have AIDS.

    The Church should preach the Bible to young people: “all sex outside of marriage is a sin.”

    However if your child or grandchild comes to me as a physician for assistance to protect themselves from pregnancy or a deadly disease, I will help them, with the above stated advice and assistance, and without judging them. That is my job as a physician.

    I am willing to face the consequeces before my God if my decision is against His will.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sarah Palin’s daughter is the perfect example of what happens when Christian parents believe that just telling/teaching their children to wait is good enough. It isn’t.

    SP’s daughter is also a perfect example of not keeping track of your daughter. I wouldn’t have let that dude anywhere near my daughter.

    Also, condoms are not that great at preventing AIDS or pregnancy. 17% of teens using condoms get pregnant according to Guttmacher. 9% using pills get pregnant.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

    Using contraception makes sense for those willing to accept its failure. Most of the women I know have at least one child due to contraceptive failure. My brother had two children due to contraceptive failure. No problem. He was married.

    Bottom line, contraception fails and condoms aren’t guarantees against STD’s. Every year many people trust in these measures and still get pregnant or infected.

    Very important to educate teens about the fairly high failure rates. If most young women knew that almost 1 in 10 teens on the pill got pregnant anyway, they might not be so confident.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sarah Palin’s daughter is the perfect example of what happens when Christian parents believe that just telling/teaching their children to wait is good enough. It isn’t.

    SP’s daughter is also a perfect example of not keeping track of your daughter. I wouldn’t have let that dude anywhere near my daughter.

    Also, condoms are not that great at preventing AIDS or pregnancy. 17% of teens using condoms get pregnant according to Guttmacher. 9% using pills get pregnant.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

    Using contraception makes sense for those willing to accept its failure. Most of the women I know have at least one child due to contraceptive failure. My brother had two children due to contraceptive failure. No problem. He was married.

    Bottom line, contraception fails and condoms aren’t guarantees against STD’s. Every year many people trust in these measures and still get pregnant or infected.

    Very important to educate teens about the fairly high failure rates. If most young women knew that almost 1 in 10 teens on the pill got pregnant anyway, they might not be so confident.

  • fws

    larry @ 87

    “And this psychological stoning is what drives them away”

    I am DEFINATELY gonna steal that line!

  • fws

    larry @ 87

    “And this psychological stoning is what drives them away”

    I am DEFINATELY gonna steal that line!

  • Grace

    Gary, @90

    YOU WROTE: @90 “With all due respect, you need to do some more reading, Grace.

    The spread of AIDS has drastically slowed in both the gay community in this country and in the straight community in Africa due to the use of condoms. Thousands less people are suffering and dying of this plague.”

    .

    From your post @84 “You don’t want to be a mother/father at age 15, do you? You also don’t want to get a life-long disease like herpes or a potentially fatal disease like AIDS.”

    You might want to re-read what I posted. There was nothing about HIV/AIDS. My reference to CDC was in regards to “herpes” and “syphlis” –

    “condom users and nonusers provide evidence that latex condoms provide limited protection against syphilis and herpes simplex virus-2 transmission.

    Giving young teens the option of going behind their parents back to obtain birth control, etc., from you doesn’t say much about your values. It might be law in your state, but that doesn’t make it right – anymore than suggesting an abortion to a teen, just because its legal where you live. It’s all an attempt to circumvent the parents, which is dishonest, and dishonorable. Children are to honor their parents, not find ways to sin.

  • Grace

    Gary, @90

    YOU WROTE: @90 “With all due respect, you need to do some more reading, Grace.

    The spread of AIDS has drastically slowed in both the gay community in this country and in the straight community in Africa due to the use of condoms. Thousands less people are suffering and dying of this plague.”

    .

    From your post @84 “You don’t want to be a mother/father at age 15, do you? You also don’t want to get a life-long disease like herpes or a potentially fatal disease like AIDS.”

    You might want to re-read what I posted. There was nothing about HIV/AIDS. My reference to CDC was in regards to “herpes” and “syphlis” –

    “condom users and nonusers provide evidence that latex condoms provide limited protection against syphilis and herpes simplex virus-2 transmission.

    Giving young teens the option of going behind their parents back to obtain birth control, etc., from you doesn’t say much about your values. It might be law in your state, but that doesn’t make it right – anymore than suggesting an abortion to a teen, just because its legal where you live. It’s all an attempt to circumvent the parents, which is dishonest, and dishonorable. Children are to honor their parents, not find ways to sin.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    sg: You are absolutely correct. Both condoms and oral contraceptives have failure rates. Very low if used correctly, but still they can fail. However, their failure rate is much lower than “just taking your chances”.

    There is no perfect answer to this issue. Growing up, I saw how one Christian father handled this issue: He never let his teeange daughter out of his sight. She could go to school, church, and home. That was it. No going out with friends. Definitely no dating.

    His daughter now hates him and will have nothing to do with him.

    Examine this statement of a father to his sixteen year old son: “Son, I don’t want you to speed in your new car, but for goodness sakes, if you do, make sure you are wearing your seat belt and not drinking alcohol!”

    Did this father just give his son “license” to speed? No. He was just hoping to decrease the chances he would have a dead/injured son.

    The same principle applies with my advice on teen sex.
    I am not encouraging them to have sex. I am just hoping to decrease the chances of a disastrous event happening to them.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    sg: You are absolutely correct. Both condoms and oral contraceptives have failure rates. Very low if used correctly, but still they can fail. However, their failure rate is much lower than “just taking your chances”.

    There is no perfect answer to this issue. Growing up, I saw how one Christian father handled this issue: He never let his teeange daughter out of his sight. She could go to school, church, and home. That was it. No going out with friends. Definitely no dating.

    His daughter now hates him and will have nothing to do with him.

    Examine this statement of a father to his sixteen year old son: “Son, I don’t want you to speed in your new car, but for goodness sakes, if you do, make sure you are wearing your seat belt and not drinking alcohol!”

    Did this father just give his son “license” to speed? No. He was just hoping to decrease the chances he would have a dead/injured son.

    The same principle applies with my advice on teen sex.
    I am not encouraging them to have sex. I am just hoping to decrease the chances of a disastrous event happening to them.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The thing is young people get the same advice about marriage that they do about sex: Don’t do it. Both are absurd, and we all know it. The admonition against marriage in general is sinful and the expectation that they wait just for years and years on end is unhealthy, psychologically and physically.

    Where is the love and service to the (closest) neighbor?

    How about telling them to get married which coincidentally agrees both with the Bible and their biology.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The thing is young people get the same advice about marriage that they do about sex: Don’t do it. Both are absurd, and we all know it. The admonition against marriage in general is sinful and the expectation that they wait just for years and years on end is unhealthy, psychologically and physically.

    Where is the love and service to the (closest) neighbor?

    How about telling them to get married which coincidentally agrees both with the Bible and their biology.

  • fws

    sg @ 95

    “Where is the love and service to the (closest) neighbor?”

    No virtue is biblical morality unless we can respond to this question with something tangible and sense-ible.

  • fws

    sg @ 95

    “Where is the love and service to the (closest) neighbor?”

    No virtue is biblical morality unless we can respond to this question with something tangible and sense-ible.

  • Grace

    Gary,

    I have a question for you; Would you help a girl obtain an abortion, if she were not married? If so, what would be the conditions under which you would do so?

  • Grace

    Gary,

    I have a question for you; Would you help a girl obtain an abortion, if she were not married? If so, what would be the conditions under which you would do so?

  • fws

    sg @ 95

    + 1 on everything you stated there.

  • fws

    sg @ 95

    + 1 on everything you stated there.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Very low if used correctly, but still they can fail. However, their failure rate is much lower than “just taking your chances”.

    It doesn’t really matter what the failure rates could be if used correctly. All that matters is what the failure rates actually are.

    Would a young woman be willing to point at you and pull the trigger of a gun knowing that there is a 1 in 10 chance there is a bullet in the chamber? Because that is about the chance that she is going to have an abortion if those pills/condoms fail.

    Sex is special because it makes people. That is good. That is what we need to teach. Contraception is only okay if you can accept its failure. These topics need to be fully discussed.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Very low if used correctly, but still they can fail. However, their failure rate is much lower than “just taking your chances”.

    It doesn’t really matter what the failure rates could be if used correctly. All that matters is what the failure rates actually are.

    Would a young woman be willing to point at you and pull the trigger of a gun knowing that there is a 1 in 10 chance there is a bullet in the chamber? Because that is about the chance that she is going to have an abortion if those pills/condoms fail.

    Sex is special because it makes people. That is good. That is what we need to teach. Contraception is only okay if you can accept its failure. These topics need to be fully discussed.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    Grace: I am 100% against abortions. I refused to attend or assist in abortions in my training, and I still do.

    If one of my patients comes to me for a referral for an abortion, I will encourage her to think of her options before makiing a final decision. If she chooses an abortion I refer her to a “reputable” physician or clinic. It is not my place to preach to her my religious beliefs.

    As I say to all my patients, I am your physician, not your priest, pastor, or rabbi. I do what is in the best interest of my patients health and sometimes, as long as they are informed of the options and consequences, I have to accept their decisions even if I don’t agree.

    I have a question for you Grace: Have you asked your doctor his/her position on these issues? If he/she, like most physicians, has the same positions I do, by your own standards, you need to fire him/her and find a doctor who agrees with your positions.

    Good luck. Such physicians are out there but few and far between. You may be able to find a family doc or an internist who abides by your principles, but finding an OB-GYN, a surgeon, or any other specialist who agrees with your postions will be tough. You are going to have to fire alot of doctors.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    Grace: I am 100% against abortions. I refused to attend or assist in abortions in my training, and I still do.

    If one of my patients comes to me for a referral for an abortion, I will encourage her to think of her options before makiing a final decision. If she chooses an abortion I refer her to a “reputable” physician or clinic. It is not my place to preach to her my religious beliefs.

    As I say to all my patients, I am your physician, not your priest, pastor, or rabbi. I do what is in the best interest of my patients health and sometimes, as long as they are informed of the options and consequences, I have to accept their decisions even if I don’t agree.

    I have a question for you Grace: Have you asked your doctor his/her position on these issues? If he/she, like most physicians, has the same positions I do, by your own standards, you need to fire him/her and find a doctor who agrees with your positions.

    Good luck. Such physicians are out there but few and far between. You may be able to find a family doc or an internist who abides by your principles, but finding an OB-GYN, a surgeon, or any other specialist who agrees with your postions will be tough. You are going to have to fire alot of doctors.

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    I’d love to continue this dialogue but I’ve got to run. God bless each and everyone of you, even if I don’t agree with you!

  • http://Luther,Baptists,andEvangelicals Gary

    I’d love to continue this dialogue but I’ve got to run. God bless each and everyone of you, even if I don’t agree with you!

  • Grace

    Gary @100

    “If one of my patients comes to me for a referral for an abortion, I will encourage her to think of her options before makiing a final decision. If she chooses an abortion I refer her to a “reputable” physician or clinic. It is not my place to preach to her my religious beliefs.”

    By your referral, you are assisting your female patient to obtain an abortion. It’s not a matter of ‘preaching’ – ones career, often dictates decisions that aren’t easy, but they do come under the heading of guiding anyone into unrighteousness, using the “reputable” wording as an excuse.

    I wouldn’t go to you as a physician because of your advice, and most of all because you would give referrals for abortions, which are murder. How can you as a doctor give such a referral? Does your conscience ever bother you?

    I haven’t asked my current GYN as to his stand on abortion – the reason is, his father (my GYN for some some) passed away just a few months ago, his son took over the practice. It’s been a very sad time in their family.

  • Grace

    Gary @100

    “If one of my patients comes to me for a referral for an abortion, I will encourage her to think of her options before makiing a final decision. If she chooses an abortion I refer her to a “reputable” physician or clinic. It is not my place to preach to her my religious beliefs.”

    By your referral, you are assisting your female patient to obtain an abortion. It’s not a matter of ‘preaching’ – ones career, often dictates decisions that aren’t easy, but they do come under the heading of guiding anyone into unrighteousness, using the “reputable” wording as an excuse.

    I wouldn’t go to you as a physician because of your advice, and most of all because you would give referrals for abortions, which are murder. How can you as a doctor give such a referral? Does your conscience ever bother you?

    I haven’t asked my current GYN as to his stand on abortion – the reason is, his father (my GYN for some some) passed away just a few months ago, his son took over the practice. It’s been a very sad time in their family.

  • fws

    John Voight explains the Lutheran idea of Vocation.

    Not (!!) as good as SG washing on diapers and sleepin on sofas to serve her kids, but…. a close runner up can we say?

  • fws

    John Voight explains the Lutheran idea of Vocation.

    Not (!!) as good as SG washing on diapers and sleepin on sofas to serve her kids, but…. a close runner up can we say?

  • larry

    Frank, steal away. I saw that happen a LOT in my old sb days. It especially fell to the girls who got pregnant. One 20 year old a few churches back was told she needed to step down from the choir so she “didn’t ruin their “witness””. Such a “witness” wreaks of flesh and works. And here is the thing, when one hears that story and similar we tend to think the ‘way it happened” was this crotchety grimacing harsh legalistic. But that’s not the way it happens. No, the director that did this was the softest outwardly nicest “good soft heart” fellows one could know. That’s how Satan engenders this kind of psychological stoning and false doctrine. This is how false doctrine.most often garbed itself and not the angry mindless Frankensteins mob legalistic. That kind of legalism, the later, mostly gets laughed at in our day. But the soft heart tear dropper, that legalist, murderess the lions share of souls in our day.

  • larry

    Frank, steal away. I saw that happen a LOT in my old sb days. It especially fell to the girls who got pregnant. One 20 year old a few churches back was told she needed to step down from the choir so she “didn’t ruin their “witness””. Such a “witness” wreaks of flesh and works. And here is the thing, when one hears that story and similar we tend to think the ‘way it happened” was this crotchety grimacing harsh legalistic. But that’s not the way it happens. No, the director that did this was the softest outwardly nicest “good soft heart” fellows one could know. That’s how Satan engenders this kind of psychological stoning and false doctrine. This is how false doctrine.most often garbed itself and not the angry mindless Frankensteins mob legalistic. That kind of legalism, the later, mostly gets laughed at in our day. But the soft heart tear dropper, that legalist, murderess the lions share of souls in our day.

  • larry

    Sg at 95; home run!

    Because otherwise that is precisely where atheist come from. Ive seen it so many times I could no longer count them.

    From a civil point of view the reason America suffers its decaying family issues, fatherless pregnancies, abortions, etc is largely this very delusion of waiting under the sophistry, even promoted by hirelings disguised as shepherds, of “when your ready, better money or career,and such. Again the money idol.

    My goal in life, lord willing, is to never retire so I can help my kids when they grow up and have children and their young family’s diaper changing in all. I could care less if I ever get that dream bass boat or some such.

  • larry

    Sg at 95; home run!

    Because otherwise that is precisely where atheist come from. Ive seen it so many times I could no longer count them.

    From a civil point of view the reason America suffers its decaying family issues, fatherless pregnancies, abortions, etc is largely this very delusion of waiting under the sophistry, even promoted by hirelings disguised as shepherds, of “when your ready, better money or career,and such. Again the money idol.

    My goal in life, lord willing, is to never retire so I can help my kids when they grow up and have children and their young family’s diaper changing in all. I could care less if I ever get that dream bass boat or some such.

  • fws

    sg @ 95

    We seem to be converging on our definition of what true morality is as opposed to a useless morality that is about spiritual navel gazing and keeping up a tidy moral appearance.

    You are really hitting on all cylinders here gal in this thread and truly hitting your stride!

    I am both impressed and grateful. And it is no coincidence that you are exactly , and I mean exactly breathing both the spirit and content of Augustana/Apology XXIII and the Large Catechism 6th commandment which both follow St Paul in 1 cor 7 and Galatians.

  • fws

    sg @ 95

    We seem to be converging on our definition of what true morality is as opposed to a useless morality that is about spiritual navel gazing and keeping up a tidy moral appearance.

    You are really hitting on all cylinders here gal in this thread and truly hitting your stride!

    I am both impressed and grateful. And it is no coincidence that you are exactly , and I mean exactly breathing both the spirit and content of Augustana/Apology XXIII and the Large Catechism 6th commandment which both follow St Paul in 1 cor 7 and Galatians.

  • Grace

    sg @95

    “The admonition against marriage in general is sinful and the expectation that they wait just for years and years on end is unhealthy, psychologically and physically. “

    I have never ever, heard anyone tell someone to wait for “years and years on end” to get married.

    There is a trend among lots of young adults, not to marry until they are late twenties or older. That doesn’t come from strong Christians, or Christian churches. That comes from a very liberal view outside the church.

    The views of none Christians and those who are from liberal churches are much different, it would be a good idea not to confuse the two.

  • Grace

    sg @95

    “The admonition against marriage in general is sinful and the expectation that they wait just for years and years on end is unhealthy, psychologically and physically. “

    I have never ever, heard anyone tell someone to wait for “years and years on end” to get married.

    There is a trend among lots of young adults, not to marry until they are late twenties or older. That doesn’t come from strong Christians, or Christian churches. That comes from a very liberal view outside the church.

    The views of none Christians and those who are from liberal churches are much different, it would be a good idea not to confuse the two.

  • kerner

    I missed most of this discussion yesterday, but If I may say so, it has been a really good one. And everyone has contributed something useful, even while disagreeing with each other.

    For example, when sg takes the position that young women are naturally more suited to marry older, more established, men who can support them, and suggest that this is a good thing and natural thing for a culture to encourage, Stephen points out that this pattern didn’t produce a utopia. But both have a point.

    Also, sg suggests that she will move heaven and earth to help her sons remain financially secure while young so they can marry young if their biological urges demand it. grace points out that Asian families stick together over several generations, thus the older generation helps, and is in return helped by, their adult children.

    What I’m taking away from all this is that the place of the family, as a basic social building block, has been eroded in western culture, and that this has been, on balance, a bad thing. But it will be hard to reverse because our culture has been set up in such a way to perpetuate, rather than change, these conditions.

    Take education (already mentioned by Bw, and thank you, by the way). We have a situation today that has watered down a high school education so much that it is very difficult to begin a good career path at age 18. And (by claiming everyone should have a college degree) we are diluting the value of those as well, so getting into the work force at 22 is starting to become impractical.

    But I don’t think the answer is to infantilize our children so we are supporting them into their adulthood. I think the better course is to make it easier for them to become independent sooner and to, as Bw suggested, make education more family friendly.

    Fortunately, Bw, there is some movement in that direction, which may help a lot if we can get more people in this country to respect it. I refer to the “adult education” programs that many universities have these days. I have a son-in-law who is supporting my daughter and their 3 children while attending a Concordia University satellite campus one night per week. In a little over one year he will have his degree, and my daughter will return to the task of completing hers.

    But most people don’t think of this as a great college experience. Most parents think that the conventional, graduate from high school and go straight to college, route is the best way to go. Kids should have that “college experience”, people say. But what is the “college experience” besides drunken partying, semi-professional sports franchises, and lots of un-chaperoned contact with the opposite sex (usually at mom and dad’s expense)? Can anyone explain to me why this is the hands down preferred route?

  • kerner

    I missed most of this discussion yesterday, but If I may say so, it has been a really good one. And everyone has contributed something useful, even while disagreeing with each other.

    For example, when sg takes the position that young women are naturally more suited to marry older, more established, men who can support them, and suggest that this is a good thing and natural thing for a culture to encourage, Stephen points out that this pattern didn’t produce a utopia. But both have a point.

    Also, sg suggests that she will move heaven and earth to help her sons remain financially secure while young so they can marry young if their biological urges demand it. grace points out that Asian families stick together over several generations, thus the older generation helps, and is in return helped by, their adult children.

    What I’m taking away from all this is that the place of the family, as a basic social building block, has been eroded in western culture, and that this has been, on balance, a bad thing. But it will be hard to reverse because our culture has been set up in such a way to perpetuate, rather than change, these conditions.

    Take education (already mentioned by Bw, and thank you, by the way). We have a situation today that has watered down a high school education so much that it is very difficult to begin a good career path at age 18. And (by claiming everyone should have a college degree) we are diluting the value of those as well, so getting into the work force at 22 is starting to become impractical.

    But I don’t think the answer is to infantilize our children so we are supporting them into their adulthood. I think the better course is to make it easier for them to become independent sooner and to, as Bw suggested, make education more family friendly.

    Fortunately, Bw, there is some movement in that direction, which may help a lot if we can get more people in this country to respect it. I refer to the “adult education” programs that many universities have these days. I have a son-in-law who is supporting my daughter and their 3 children while attending a Concordia University satellite campus one night per week. In a little over one year he will have his degree, and my daughter will return to the task of completing hers.

    But most people don’t think of this as a great college experience. Most parents think that the conventional, graduate from high school and go straight to college, route is the best way to go. Kids should have that “college experience”, people say. But what is the “college experience” besides drunken partying, semi-professional sports franchises, and lots of un-chaperoned contact with the opposite sex (usually at mom and dad’s expense)? Can anyone explain to me why this is the hands down preferred route?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Most parents think that the conventional, graduate from high school and go straight to college, route is the best way to go. Kids should have that “college experience”, people say.”

    But why? It is crap. I was married for much of my college experience to my husband who is older. It was way better than going into debt and socializing with peers. I got to go to really cool company dinner parties and charity galas and gallery openings and talk to interesting people like his friends and coworkers, none of whom were annoying or drunk. No one seemed think less of him for marrying someone still in college. Before I met him, I was bored when not studying. The social scene was degenerate, not fun. Plus, my husband could help me with my homework.

    Anyway, the really crappy thing that American high schools and higher ed do to students is require a high school diploma and require you to be 18 before enrolling. In Germany, you can start training for a trade in 9th grade and at 16 start a paid internship leading to a position when you finish at 18. You can’t work in most trades without this training and certificate, so firms can’t hire immigrants until after they complete the same training, thereby giving residents first shot at these jobs. Imagine if kids who aren’t interested in the typical high school program could do that here. Many more would be leading productive lives, not selling or taking drugs and they could be supporting their own kids (which they have anyway).

    the place of the family, as a basic social building block, has been eroded in western culture, and that this has been, on balance, a bad thing. But it will be hard to reverse because our culture has been set up in such a way to perpetuate, rather than change, these conditions.

    You can do it in your own family, and in so doing, at least set an example for your own kids, friends and neighbors.

    But I don’t think the answer is to infantilize our children so we are supporting them into their adulthood. I think the better course is to make it easier for them to become independent sooner.

    Yeah, I agree. However, buying your kids a house in Texas isn’t that expensive and is not equivalent to supporting them. He would still have to pay property taxes and utilities. At today’s rates that would add up to about $1000 a month. Instead of paying interest on a mortgage, he can invest for the future, rainy day, whatever. At least he would not be worried about losing his home. I think the idea of having every generation start over from scratch is weird. It is nice to have a country home or beach house or farm in the family that everyone can go to and feel they belong. What is the point of being prosperous if you never enjoy any of it? Status seeking gets tiring. Living well is the best revenge. Living well as in being able to have time to enjoy your family. That is way better than “independence.” I don’t want independence. I want to be together and have fun. I don’t really worry that my kids will be lazy. They aren’t lazy now.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Most parents think that the conventional, graduate from high school and go straight to college, route is the best way to go. Kids should have that “college experience”, people say.”

    But why? It is crap. I was married for much of my college experience to my husband who is older. It was way better than going into debt and socializing with peers. I got to go to really cool company dinner parties and charity galas and gallery openings and talk to interesting people like his friends and coworkers, none of whom were annoying or drunk. No one seemed think less of him for marrying someone still in college. Before I met him, I was bored when not studying. The social scene was degenerate, not fun. Plus, my husband could help me with my homework.

    Anyway, the really crappy thing that American high schools and higher ed do to students is require a high school diploma and require you to be 18 before enrolling. In Germany, you can start training for a trade in 9th grade and at 16 start a paid internship leading to a position when you finish at 18. You can’t work in most trades without this training and certificate, so firms can’t hire immigrants until after they complete the same training, thereby giving residents first shot at these jobs. Imagine if kids who aren’t interested in the typical high school program could do that here. Many more would be leading productive lives, not selling or taking drugs and they could be supporting their own kids (which they have anyway).

    the place of the family, as a basic social building block, has been eroded in western culture, and that this has been, on balance, a bad thing. But it will be hard to reverse because our culture has been set up in such a way to perpetuate, rather than change, these conditions.

    You can do it in your own family, and in so doing, at least set an example for your own kids, friends and neighbors.

    But I don’t think the answer is to infantilize our children so we are supporting them into their adulthood. I think the better course is to make it easier for them to become independent sooner.

    Yeah, I agree. However, buying your kids a house in Texas isn’t that expensive and is not equivalent to supporting them. He would still have to pay property taxes and utilities. At today’s rates that would add up to about $1000 a month. Instead of paying interest on a mortgage, he can invest for the future, rainy day, whatever. At least he would not be worried about losing his home. I think the idea of having every generation start over from scratch is weird. It is nice to have a country home or beach house or farm in the family that everyone can go to and feel they belong. What is the point of being prosperous if you never enjoy any of it? Status seeking gets tiring. Living well is the best revenge. Living well as in being able to have time to enjoy your family. That is way better than “independence.” I don’t want independence. I want to be together and have fun. I don’t really worry that my kids will be lazy. They aren’t lazy now.

  • kerner

    “It’s crap”

    Oh, I agree. I really wasn’t too keen on the great “college experience” myself. God protect me from thinking of my days in school as the best years of my life. Imagine peaking that early and being on a down hill slide for the next 60 years (shudder). But a lot of people feel that way. I don’t know whether it comes naturally to them or it’s taught.

    One thing though. The sg theory (women should marry at a young age to men who are established enough to support them) only solves half the problem presented in this post. How do we propose to help guys to keep their stuff in their pants until they are old enough to be “established”, which may be in their mid to late 20′s. Not that I’m criticizing mind you. From your account, I don’t doubt that marrying as you did, when you did, has a lot to do with your present contentment and financial security. I’m just saying that it doesn’t help young men out of their tough position.

  • kerner

    “It’s crap”

    Oh, I agree. I really wasn’t too keen on the great “college experience” myself. God protect me from thinking of my days in school as the best years of my life. Imagine peaking that early and being on a down hill slide for the next 60 years (shudder). But a lot of people feel that way. I don’t know whether it comes naturally to them or it’s taught.

    One thing though. The sg theory (women should marry at a young age to men who are established enough to support them) only solves half the problem presented in this post. How do we propose to help guys to keep their stuff in their pants until they are old enough to be “established”, which may be in their mid to late 20′s. Not that I’m criticizing mind you. From your account, I don’t doubt that marrying as you did, when you did, has a lot to do with your present contentment and financial security. I’m just saying that it doesn’t help young men out of their tough position.

  • kerner

    “You can do it in your own family, and in so doing, at least set an example for your own kids, friends and neighbors.”

    I don’t know how good an example I was, but I have been blest with children who are unusual in that none of them have permanently moved far away. Most of them have lived in other parts of the country, even other parts of the world, but they all seem to be close to my wife and me, and to each other. And they are all geographically close, at least for now. All my grandchildren are less that 20 minutes away. Few people my age can say that.

  • kerner

    “You can do it in your own family, and in so doing, at least set an example for your own kids, friends and neighbors.”

    I don’t know how good an example I was, but I have been blest with children who are unusual in that none of them have permanently moved far away. Most of them have lived in other parts of the country, even other parts of the world, but they all seem to be close to my wife and me, and to each other. And they are all geographically close, at least for now. All my grandchildren are less that 20 minutes away. Few people my age can say that.

  • fws

    kerner @ 110

    that is the part where Sg says that the family needs to wrap around the young married couple and not have them start their life at financial ground zero.

    But I think even sg is missing something. mom and dad usually dont have enough resources. It really does take a village, or rather , a tribe to do all this. It takes the nuclear family. and the nuclear family needs to be aunts, uncles, grandparents and older brothers and sisters and cousins and godparents even.

    And if everone marries younger , grandma and grandpa look like people in their mid forties. people still in the middle of life with energy to babysit and be really involved rather than the ones needing end of life care or diapers changed.

  • fws

    kerner @ 110

    that is the part where Sg says that the family needs to wrap around the young married couple and not have them start their life at financial ground zero.

    But I think even sg is missing something. mom and dad usually dont have enough resources. It really does take a village, or rather , a tribe to do all this. It takes the nuclear family. and the nuclear family needs to be aunts, uncles, grandparents and older brothers and sisters and cousins and godparents even.

    And if everone marries younger , grandma and grandpa look like people in their mid forties. people still in the middle of life with energy to babysit and be really involved rather than the ones needing end of life care or diapers changed.

  • fws

    kerner @ 110

    the man as bread winner or even the wife then have help with the kids, time to spend alone with the grandparents babysitting… quality of life even if there is not alot of money….

    this is not necessarily a call for the return to leave it to beaver. There are no rules like that. June doesnt necessarily need to stay at home. the beaver might spend time living with grandma and grandpa or taking care of great grandpa. mom might be off to college with the husband caring for the infant babe. None of this upsets any biblical principle.

    and . oh yeah. St Paul says in 1 cor 7 that men and women should never deny one another sex so as not to make an opening for temptation. Hard for mom to feel sexual if she has spent the entire day with 3 infants. and hard for the husband to be interested if he is holding down two jobs. so the extended family facilitates this part of the deal as well by pitching in.

  • fws

    kerner @ 110

    the man as bread winner or even the wife then have help with the kids, time to spend alone with the grandparents babysitting… quality of life even if there is not alot of money….

    this is not necessarily a call for the return to leave it to beaver. There are no rules like that. June doesnt necessarily need to stay at home. the beaver might spend time living with grandma and grandpa or taking care of great grandpa. mom might be off to college with the husband caring for the infant babe. None of this upsets any biblical principle.

    and . oh yeah. St Paul says in 1 cor 7 that men and women should never deny one another sex so as not to make an opening for temptation. Hard for mom to feel sexual if she has spent the entire day with 3 infants. and hard for the husband to be interested if he is holding down two jobs. so the extended family facilitates this part of the deal as well by pitching in.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 110

    YOU WROTE: “One thing though. The sg theory (women should marry at a young age to men who are established enough to support them) only solves half the problem presented in this post. How do we propose to help guys to keep their stuff in their pants until they are old enough to be “established”, which may be in their mid to late 20′s.

    The guy can wait, the girl cannot. That’s magical thinking!

    That’s what most women (mothers miss) They don’t, or haven’t thought of that YET. The guy their daughter marries, has been thinking (or doing something about it) for a very long time, starting in his teens. Having said that; the female is the one to be measured for purity, but her husband needs to be chaste, unused, until he marries and is successful to establish a home and nest for the girl of his dreams?

    What works for women is no different for men. When women (mothers) wake up, to the male…. and his sexual urge, perhaps at an earlier age then the female, they can realize how complicated age, maturity, all the intricate possibilities for a successful marriage at any age can be.

    My POINT:

    Don’t expect males to become successful, wait, (no sexual urges) until later, while the female they marry is but a mere late teen or 20.

    Kerner, this is one of the problems women have, they don’t understand the male, they dream of men being older, wiser, riding on a white horse, or a fab car, .. their daughter being the reciepent of such a man, who has waited, saved his money, to wisk her off to……

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 110

    YOU WROTE: “One thing though. The sg theory (women should marry at a young age to men who are established enough to support them) only solves half the problem presented in this post. How do we propose to help guys to keep their stuff in their pants until they are old enough to be “established”, which may be in their mid to late 20′s.

    The guy can wait, the girl cannot. That’s magical thinking!

    That’s what most women (mothers miss) They don’t, or haven’t thought of that YET. The guy their daughter marries, has been thinking (or doing something about it) for a very long time, starting in his teens. Having said that; the female is the one to be measured for purity, but her husband needs to be chaste, unused, until he marries and is successful to establish a home and nest for the girl of his dreams?

    What works for women is no different for men. When women (mothers) wake up, to the male…. and his sexual urge, perhaps at an earlier age then the female, they can realize how complicated age, maturity, all the intricate possibilities for a successful marriage at any age can be.

    My POINT:

    Don’t expect males to become successful, wait, (no sexual urges) until later, while the female they marry is but a mere late teen or 20.

    Kerner, this is one of the problems women have, they don’t understand the male, they dream of men being older, wiser, riding on a white horse, or a fab car, .. their daughter being the reciepent of such a man, who has waited, saved his money, to wisk her off to……

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The sg theory (women should marry at a young age to men who are established enough to support them) only solves half the problem presented in this post.”

    Not exactly. All I am saying is that young women shouldn’t be shamed or coerced into waiting or having careers they don’t even want because parents and society demand it as proof that you are not a loser. Those few women who genuinely want to be engineers or doctors or cement contractors should be able to do that. But dang few really want that. They just don’t want to look like losers or be poor.

    How do we propose to help guys to keep their stuff in their pants until they are old enough to be “established”, which may be in their mid to late 20′s.

    Let them have something worth waiting for, a young wife. Waiting till you are 25-27 with a steady job or going business is a lot more appealing if you are going to get what you actually want, a young wife who loves you. If you have to deny yourself the uh, enjoyment of all those fresh young coeds while you are in college just so you can marry one of the exact same chicks after all the other guys have enjoyed her, uh company, why would you voluntarily go stand at the end of the line? If everyone at your church looks at you like you are a pedophile for dating a 19 year old, a legal adult, and society pressures her to keep to guys her own age (not appropriate), then you never get your reward. Now, yeah I am generalizing and this doesn’t fit everyone. But if history is any indicator, probably 70% of 23 year old men would be a lot more eager and excited about Miss Right if the definition were 18 years old and fresh rather than 23 years old and very well used and abused emotionally and…

    I got slammed earlier for referring to young women as attractive, but it is true. Any given woman at 18 is probably more attractive than she is 10 years later after several “relationships” and break ups.

    So if all guys get for waiting is a many times heartbroken and hardened 28 year old with a BA in Sociology and a bunch of consumer debt, then uh, no there is no point in waiting, may as well enjoy her company now than 10 years from now, otherwise he will never get to enjoy the “company” of any young woman ever.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The sg theory (women should marry at a young age to men who are established enough to support them) only solves half the problem presented in this post.”

    Not exactly. All I am saying is that young women shouldn’t be shamed or coerced into waiting or having careers they don’t even want because parents and society demand it as proof that you are not a loser. Those few women who genuinely want to be engineers or doctors or cement contractors should be able to do that. But dang few really want that. They just don’t want to look like losers or be poor.

    How do we propose to help guys to keep their stuff in their pants until they are old enough to be “established”, which may be in their mid to late 20′s.

    Let them have something worth waiting for, a young wife. Waiting till you are 25-27 with a steady job or going business is a lot more appealing if you are going to get what you actually want, a young wife who loves you. If you have to deny yourself the uh, enjoyment of all those fresh young coeds while you are in college just so you can marry one of the exact same chicks after all the other guys have enjoyed her, uh company, why would you voluntarily go stand at the end of the line? If everyone at your church looks at you like you are a pedophile for dating a 19 year old, a legal adult, and society pressures her to keep to guys her own age (not appropriate), then you never get your reward. Now, yeah I am generalizing and this doesn’t fit everyone. But if history is any indicator, probably 70% of 23 year old men would be a lot more eager and excited about Miss Right if the definition were 18 years old and fresh rather than 23 years old and very well used and abused emotionally and…

    I got slammed earlier for referring to young women as attractive, but it is true. Any given woman at 18 is probably more attractive than she is 10 years later after several “relationships” and break ups.

    So if all guys get for waiting is a many times heartbroken and hardened 28 year old with a BA in Sociology and a bunch of consumer debt, then uh, no there is no point in waiting, may as well enjoy her company now than 10 years from now, otherwise he will never get to enjoy the “company” of any young woman ever.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “the male, they dream of men being older, wiser, riding on a white horse, or a fab car, .. their daughter being the reciepent of such a man, who has waited, saved his money, to wisk her off to……”

    I actually married that guy, except I was the one with the fab car.

    Personally, I think those guys who do wait deserve a spouse who also waited but she needn’t be as old.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “the male, they dream of men being older, wiser, riding on a white horse, or a fab car, .. their daughter being the reciepent of such a man, who has waited, saved his money, to wisk her off to……”

    I actually married that guy, except I was the one with the fab car.

    Personally, I think those guys who do wait deserve a spouse who also waited but she needn’t be as old.

  • kerner

    sg:

    I’m not criticizing you life choices. Really. But I will suggest that that is in fact the way it used to be done (and in some cultures, is still done), but what we had is a double standard. I.e., there were girls you married, and girls you played with until you were ready to get married to that fresh young thing you were “waiting” for. And hard as people sometimes tried to keep the latter catagory to a minimum, they never went away.

    I grant you what is going on today is probably worse. Women said to men, “We will value chastity as much as you do”, and it wasn’t very much. The question is, how do we get men to value chastity as much as women used to, and it ain’t gonna be easy.

  • kerner

    sg:

    I’m not criticizing you life choices. Really. But I will suggest that that is in fact the way it used to be done (and in some cultures, is still done), but what we had is a double standard. I.e., there were girls you married, and girls you played with until you were ready to get married to that fresh young thing you were “waiting” for. And hard as people sometimes tried to keep the latter catagory to a minimum, they never went away.

    I grant you what is going on today is probably worse. Women said to men, “We will value chastity as much as you do”, and it wasn’t very much. The question is, how do we get men to value chastity as much as women used to, and it ain’t gonna be easy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sometimes what people think is true is more persuasive than what is actually demonstrably true. Some people are disciplined and can actually wait. Others not so much. However, when there is little or no reward, then of course fewer will wait. Some cannot control themselves hardly at all. Like literally can’t. Others are most impressive in their discipline. Anyway these two articles just seem to go together. I will post them separately to avoid delay:

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sometimes what people think is true is more persuasive than what is actually demonstrably true. Some people are disciplined and can actually wait. Others not so much. However, when there is little or no reward, then of course fewer will wait. Some cannot control themselves hardly at all. Like literally can’t. Others are most impressive in their discipline. Anyway these two articles just seem to go together. I will post them separately to avoid delay:

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • Grace

    There is just as much “reward” for women to wait, as there is for men.

    As for attending college. Women should be concerned about their future, especially if their husband becomes ill, or passes away.

    sg @115 <i"Not exactly. All I am saying is that young women shouldn’t be shamed or coerced into waiting or having careers they don’t even want because parents and society demand it as proof that you are not a loser. Those few women who genuinely want to be engineers or doctors or cement contractors should be able to do that. But dang few really want that. They just don’t want to look like losers or be poor.

    A career is not sought, just because “society demand it as prrof that you are not a loser” – that’s a hip shooter remark, if I’ve ever read one!

    Further more, there are many careers before “doctors” “engineers” or “cement contractors” – Teachers, nurses, radiology, dentist and doctors assistants, just to name a handful are needed. All of those mentioned require special training, which takes several, to four years. Women are a vital part of the work force in this country. Without them, we wouldn’t have the medical staffs, both in hospitals and physicians offices. Most of these careers pay very good salaries, great health plans, and vacations. Keep in mind these are careers that women can depend on if the need arises for her to work after she marries and has children.

    The hours in hospitals are flexibale. Teachers don’t work late, they also have several vacations during the school year, and several months during the summer which allows them to stay at home.

  • Grace

    There is just as much “reward” for women to wait, as there is for men.

    As for attending college. Women should be concerned about their future, especially if their husband becomes ill, or passes away.

    sg @115 <i"Not exactly. All I am saying is that young women shouldn’t be shamed or coerced into waiting or having careers they don’t even want because parents and society demand it as proof that you are not a loser. Those few women who genuinely want to be engineers or doctors or cement contractors should be able to do that. But dang few really want that. They just don’t want to look like losers or be poor.

    A career is not sought, just because “society demand it as prrof that you are not a loser” – that’s a hip shooter remark, if I’ve ever read one!

    Further more, there are many careers before “doctors” “engineers” or “cement contractors” – Teachers, nurses, radiology, dentist and doctors assistants, just to name a handful are needed. All of those mentioned require special training, which takes several, to four years. Women are a vital part of the work force in this country. Without them, we wouldn’t have the medical staffs, both in hospitals and physicians offices. Most of these careers pay very good salaries, great health plans, and vacations. Keep in mind these are careers that women can depend on if the need arises for her to work after she marries and has children.

    The hours in hospitals are flexibale. Teachers don’t work late, they also have several vacations during the school year, and several months during the summer which allows them to stay at home.

  • Grace

    If a man can wait until he is 23 or more to get married, so can a woman. Let’s not get carried away with men being chaste, and women being unable to control themselves unless they marry very early.

  • Grace

    If a man can wait until he is 23 or more to get married, so can a woman. Let’s not get carried away with men being chaste, and women being unable to control themselves unless they marry very early.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    but what we had is a double standard. I.e., there were girls you married, and girls you played with until you were ready to get married to that fresh young thing you were “waiting” for.

    Well I certainly agree that there are different types of people. Really attractive guys and those girls not inclined to wait did do what they did. Absolutely true. And due to the hard and fast rule that guys like that stay very attractive to women, those individuals could still pick a lovely fresh young woman when they did decide to marry (if not settle down). But those kinds of guys are not typical. Most guys can’t get women to uh, do them favors when there is a really big penalty for it and a much bigger and immediate reward for not doing it. If the average young woman has the choice between a good guy marrying her soon and a bad boy dallying her, the smarter ones are going to make the better choice. History shows us this. However, when all the young women know they are going to have to wait to get married for 3-5 years anyway and even then the fish aren’t really biting then, well, what the hell, no one is going to know anyway. She is going to move to another town and she knows how to lie or at least omit. Basically no one can get what they want, so they settle. All of the impediments are to healthy behavior. And all of the structures in place promote unhealthy behavior. None of this is absolute, of course, but when you structure things to work a certain way, then they more often work that way. Women want attention, strength, love and commitment. Since all they can get when they are 18 is attention and strength they settle for those. Men want attractive young women, love, respect and commitment. If they wait, they can’t get the thing they want most, attractive young women, so they absolutely are going for it now. By the time a guy hits 30, he is almost entirely cut off from any woman 18-20. Very hard to meet her, and then there are her family and friends who think that normal is insane and insane is normal. In a rational community, parents and friends would be thrilled for her. But no, we live in irrational times. So, a great guy (responsible, disciplined, hard working, kind) can’t get a great girl (fresh young 18-20), but college cads can get a different one every week.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    but what we had is a double standard. I.e., there were girls you married, and girls you played with until you were ready to get married to that fresh young thing you were “waiting” for.

    Well I certainly agree that there are different types of people. Really attractive guys and those girls not inclined to wait did do what they did. Absolutely true. And due to the hard and fast rule that guys like that stay very attractive to women, those individuals could still pick a lovely fresh young woman when they did decide to marry (if not settle down). But those kinds of guys are not typical. Most guys can’t get women to uh, do them favors when there is a really big penalty for it and a much bigger and immediate reward for not doing it. If the average young woman has the choice between a good guy marrying her soon and a bad boy dallying her, the smarter ones are going to make the better choice. History shows us this. However, when all the young women know they are going to have to wait to get married for 3-5 years anyway and even then the fish aren’t really biting then, well, what the hell, no one is going to know anyway. She is going to move to another town and she knows how to lie or at least omit. Basically no one can get what they want, so they settle. All of the impediments are to healthy behavior. And all of the structures in place promote unhealthy behavior. None of this is absolute, of course, but when you structure things to work a certain way, then they more often work that way. Women want attention, strength, love and commitment. Since all they can get when they are 18 is attention and strength they settle for those. Men want attractive young women, love, respect and commitment. If they wait, they can’t get the thing they want most, attractive young women, so they absolutely are going for it now. By the time a guy hits 30, he is almost entirely cut off from any woman 18-20. Very hard to meet her, and then there are her family and friends who think that normal is insane and insane is normal. In a rational community, parents and friends would be thrilled for her. But no, we live in irrational times. So, a great guy (responsible, disciplined, hard working, kind) can’t get a great girl (fresh young 18-20), but college cads can get a different one every week.

  • Grace

    sg, Your post abovd 123, is off the wall.

    It would be easier to read if you divided your thoughts into paragraphs. 390 words (your post @123) without one paragraph, is not a good idea. ;)

  • Grace

    sg, Your post abovd 123, is off the wall.

    It would be easier to read if you divided your thoughts into paragraphs. 390 words (your post @123) without one paragraph, is not a good idea. ;)

  • kerner

    sg:

    OK, I understand the point @119: People who wait till they are married to have children, will have better lives, and give their children better lives, than those who don’t. The plucky single mom who raises brilliant, successful kids may be largely a myth (perhaps with some exceptions).

    But what are you trying to say with the link @118?

  • kerner

    sg:

    OK, I understand the point @119: People who wait till they are married to have children, will have better lives, and give their children better lives, than those who don’t. The plucky single mom who raises brilliant, successful kids may be largely a myth (perhaps with some exceptions).

    But what are you trying to say with the link @118?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 122 Did you look at the link I posted:

    “The student surveys at MIT and Wellesley also compared virginity by academic major. The chart for Wellesley displayed below shows that 0% of studio art majors were virgins, but 72% of biology majors were virgins, and 83% of biochem and math majors were virgins! Similarly, at MIT 20% of ‘humanities’ majors were virgins, but 73% of biology majors.”

    Gee, I wonder if most of those math majors are guys. Hmm.

    I wonder if most of those humanities and studio arts majors are women. hmm.

    Now, who can’t control themselves?

    Virtually all young women at college can get at least some action, so yeah they are more tempted, daily, because they just get so many offers. Men are stuck chasing and they have to study. The most attractive 20%-40% of guys get all they want because the rest of the guys aren’t offering marriage because they don’t have jobs. The women aren’t where they meet any older guys that they could actually marry. They aren’t at church because our society thinks you should keep to your own age and the college aged people are segregated at church, too. So, most guys are not getting that much action. Remember there are way more women than men in college. I mean if all a girl is going to get is a good time, she will just wait her turn with the most attractive guys. Lower level colleges are like 3:2 women to men. You have to go pretty selective to see gender balance.

    Anyway, I think the church’s unhealthy de facto message about sex and marriage does turn off college aged people. It fences them into the culture and is complicit with the cultural norms which are unbiblical.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 122 Did you look at the link I posted:

    “The student surveys at MIT and Wellesley also compared virginity by academic major. The chart for Wellesley displayed below shows that 0% of studio art majors were virgins, but 72% of biology majors were virgins, and 83% of biochem and math majors were virgins! Similarly, at MIT 20% of ‘humanities’ majors were virgins, but 73% of biology majors.”

    Gee, I wonder if most of those math majors are guys. Hmm.

    I wonder if most of those humanities and studio arts majors are women. hmm.

    Now, who can’t control themselves?

    Virtually all young women at college can get at least some action, so yeah they are more tempted, daily, because they just get so many offers. Men are stuck chasing and they have to study. The most attractive 20%-40% of guys get all they want because the rest of the guys aren’t offering marriage because they don’t have jobs. The women aren’t where they meet any older guys that they could actually marry. They aren’t at church because our society thinks you should keep to your own age and the college aged people are segregated at church, too. So, most guys are not getting that much action. Remember there are way more women than men in college. I mean if all a girl is going to get is a good time, she will just wait her turn with the most attractive guys. Lower level colleges are like 3:2 women to men. You have to go pretty selective to see gender balance.

    Anyway, I think the church’s unhealthy de facto message about sex and marriage does turn off college aged people. It fences them into the culture and is complicit with the cultural norms which are unbiblical.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “People who wait till they are married to have children, will have better lives, and give their children better lives, than those who don’t.”

    Nope. Arrow points the other way. Disciplined conscientious people wait to get married and they give their children better lives. Conscientiousness causes the good outcomes, all of them. Please don’t reverse the arrow. Conscientious people also experience setbacks and problems. The rain falls on us all, but it still falls down, not up.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “People who wait till they are married to have children, will have better lives, and give their children better lives, than those who don’t.”

    Nope. Arrow points the other way. Disciplined conscientious people wait to get married and they give their children better lives. Conscientiousness causes the good outcomes, all of them. Please don’t reverse the arrow. Conscientious people also experience setbacks and problems. The rain falls on us all, but it still falls down, not up.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    But what are you trying to say with the link @118?

    Men can and do wait. Not all guys who work hard and save to marry later are doing the double standard thing. In fact, plenty of the best ones aren’t. It is one of those weird cases where something that seems too good to be true actually is true.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    But what are you trying to say with the link @118?

    Men can and do wait. Not all guys who work hard and save to marry later are doing the double standard thing. In fact, plenty of the best ones aren’t. It is one of those weird cases where something that seems too good to be true actually is true.

  • Grace

    sg,

    You can point to all the articles you like, that doesn’t mean they are correct, nor does it mean those taking a survey have told the truth.

    Morality vs. education, and age, doesn’t give an accurate picture, it’s just one slice.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It would be easier to read if you divided your thoughts into paragraphs. 390 words (your post @123) without one paragraph, is not a good idea.

    Is their no failing too small to escape your highly developed fault-finding ability? Is any frailty in another insignificant enough to prompt you to charitably overlook it?

  • Grace

    sg,

    You can point to all the articles you like, that doesn’t mean they are correct, nor does it mean those taking a survey have told the truth.

    Morality vs. education, and age, doesn’t give an accurate picture, it’s just one slice.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It would be easier to read if you divided your thoughts into paragraphs. 390 words (your post @123) without one paragraph, is not a good idea.

    Is their no failing too small to escape your highly developed fault-finding ability? Is any frailty in another insignificant enough to prompt you to charitably overlook it?

  • Grace

    sg @130

    Sorry you feel so down-trodden over a suggestion. But of course, I’m sure you can find a survey – :lol:

  • Grace

    sg @130

    Sorry you feel so down-trodden over a suggestion. But of course, I’m sure you can find a survey – :lol:

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You can point to all the articles you like, that doesn’t mean they are correct, nor does it mean those taking a survey have told the truth.

    Do you mean that you believe that math majors are claiming virginity when in fact they are not? Do young men generally boast of their lack of sexual experience?

    According to the GSS, men on average claim to have more sex partners than women. Given that impossibility, perhaps women are underreporting? Or perhaps you have a better theory.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You can point to all the articles you like, that doesn’t mean they are correct, nor does it mean those taking a survey have told the truth.

    Do you mean that you believe that math majors are claiming virginity when in fact they are not? Do young men generally boast of their lack of sexual experience?

    According to the GSS, men on average claim to have more sex partners than women. Given that impossibility, perhaps women are underreporting? Or perhaps you have a better theory.

  • BW

    sg,

    Don’t bother Grace with data to discuss. Personal anecdotes trump data.

  • BW

    sg,

    Don’t bother Grace with data to discuss. Personal anecdotes trump data.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sorry you feel so down-trodden over a suggestion.

    I don’t feel downtrodden. I think I can get the speck out of my eye.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sorry you feel so down-trodden over a suggestion.

    I don’t feel downtrodden. I think I can get the speck out of my eye.

  • Grace

    sg @132

    I don’t have a theory –

    I know many people, have seen a great many broken lives, and those who have wholesome, well adjusted marriages, with and without children, those who are divorced, and some who have never married.

    What I see is a broken world, one that can’t be measured by statistics in all cases, and that most certainly includes marriage, age, education – the most important aspect is whether or not individuals know the LORD. With that in mind, it sets the framework for a life that has value, no matter whether someone has attained a degree, or not.

    I don’t agree with you sg, for a number of reasons. What works for one Christian man or woman, when seeking a mate, is different – some can wait, orthers cannot. If they can’t wait, they should marry. No one knows the heart, except the LORD.

    All the university surveys are useless if those taking the survey have no interest in the LORD, don’t believe that there is a God, and have little to no foundation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – when it comes to virginity, marriage, etc., it’s of the world.

  • Grace

    sg @132

    I don’t have a theory –

    I know many people, have seen a great many broken lives, and those who have wholesome, well adjusted marriages, with and without children, those who are divorced, and some who have never married.

    What I see is a broken world, one that can’t be measured by statistics in all cases, and that most certainly includes marriage, age, education – the most important aspect is whether or not individuals know the LORD. With that in mind, it sets the framework for a life that has value, no matter whether someone has attained a degree, or not.

    I don’t agree with you sg, for a number of reasons. What works for one Christian man or woman, when seeking a mate, is different – some can wait, orthers cannot. If they can’t wait, they should marry. No one knows the heart, except the LORD.

    All the university surveys are useless if those taking the survey have no interest in the LORD, don’t believe that there is a God, and have little to no foundation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – when it comes to virginity, marriage, etc., it’s of the world.

  • kerner

    sg:

    I don’t have time to to get good statistical data, but if the roster of the officers at the biology club at Wellesley is any indication, Wellesley biology majors as a group are disproportionately Asian women. The kind from the “tiger mom” culture that probably does promote virginity, but hardly the control group of smart American males you seem to think it is.

    Co-Presidents
    Lu Jin (ljin) & Jenn Yang (jyang2)

    Vice President
    Serena Liu (sliu2)

    Treasurer
    Zihan Dong (zdong)

    Secretary
    Kemi Kemirembe (kkemirem)

    Biofilm Chair
    Jenn FIshbein (jfishbei)

    Lecture Committee Chair
    Anoush Youssoufian (ayoussou)

    Co-Lecture Committee Chair
    Tiffany Chen (tchen2)

    Out-of-Lab Lunch Series Chair
    Heidi Park (hpark3)

    Biofilm Chair
    Jenn Fishbein (jfishbei)

    http://www.wellesley.edu/Biology/biology_club.html

    Plus, to get into wellesley, applicants have to be the single minded types that have no social lives (hense the high proportion of Asian/tigermoms.

    But even in less prestigious schools, 61% of biology majors are women and 13% are asian, which is what? About 3X the national average. And how many of those are even Americans? Look, statistics can tell you somethings, but they can’t tell you everything.

  • kerner

    sg:

    I don’t have time to to get good statistical data, but if the roster of the officers at the biology club at Wellesley is any indication, Wellesley biology majors as a group are disproportionately Asian women. The kind from the “tiger mom” culture that probably does promote virginity, but hardly the control group of smart American males you seem to think it is.

    Co-Presidents
    Lu Jin (ljin) & Jenn Yang (jyang2)

    Vice President
    Serena Liu (sliu2)

    Treasurer
    Zihan Dong (zdong)

    Secretary
    Kemi Kemirembe (kkemirem)

    Biofilm Chair
    Jenn FIshbein (jfishbei)

    Lecture Committee Chair
    Anoush Youssoufian (ayoussou)

    Co-Lecture Committee Chair
    Tiffany Chen (tchen2)

    Out-of-Lab Lunch Series Chair
    Heidi Park (hpark3)

    Biofilm Chair
    Jenn Fishbein (jfishbei)

    http://www.wellesley.edu/Biology/biology_club.html

    Plus, to get into wellesley, applicants have to be the single minded types that have no social lives (hense the high proportion of Asian/tigermoms.

    But even in less prestigious schools, 61% of biology majors are women and 13% are asian, which is what? About 3X the national average. And how many of those are even Americans? Look, statistics can tell you somethings, but they can’t tell you everything.

  • Grace

    BWW @ 133

    “Don’t bother Grace with data to discuss. Personal anecdotes trump data.”

    I have been involved within a university setting – surveys don’t mean a great deal, when it comes to questions regarding morality – young people think its a hoot for the most part. They don’t expose themselves very often, they know better.

  • Grace

    BWW @ 133

    “Don’t bother Grace with data to discuss. Personal anecdotes trump data.”

    I have been involved within a university setting – surveys don’t mean a great deal, when it comes to questions regarding morality – young people think its a hoot for the most part. They don’t expose themselves very often, they know better.

  • kerner

    Also,a lot of those smart guys aren’t exactly “waiting”. Your link @118 says:

    Half Sigma also showed that the smartest men in the GSS (approx. IQ >120) were also more likely to visit a prostitute”

    Delaying marriage or even delaying serious relationships is absolutely not synonymous with delaying sex.

  • kerner

    Also,a lot of those smart guys aren’t exactly “waiting”. Your link @118 says:

    Half Sigma also showed that the smartest men in the GSS (approx. IQ >120) were also more likely to visit a prostitute”

    Delaying marriage or even delaying serious relationships is absolutely not synonymous with delaying sex.

  • kerner

    @132:

    “According to the GSS, men on average claim to have more sex partners than women. Given that impossibility…”

    It’s not an impossibility. It is possible if they are all going to the same girls.

  • kerner

    @132:

    “According to the GSS, men on average claim to have more sex partners than women. Given that impossibility…”

    It’s not an impossibility. It is possible if they are all going to the same girls.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 136

    Our universities are full of Asians, just as you state. Our communities have a huge population of Asian home ownership- in fact, Asians come here, buy a home with cash, live here long enough for their children to go through a top private high school (up to 29,000 per year) attend a top university – and THEN:

    They put their home up for sale, pack up the contents oftheir homes, to ship back oversees – that’s how it’s done.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 136

    Our universities are full of Asians, just as you state. Our communities have a huge population of Asian home ownership- in fact, Asians come here, buy a home with cash, live here long enough for their children to go through a top private high school (up to 29,000 per year) attend a top university – and THEN:

    They put their home up for sale, pack up the contents oftheir homes, to ship back oversees – that’s how it’s done.

  • Larry

    SG and Frank, out of the park home runs! On every account. The trend in America is overall increased dispersing individualism, and usually it goes under the sugar coating of “need to wait for career X” or some such. It’s PURE hogwash. People can prepare for careers while having families and IF extended families help. But everyone is busy with their individualism. Furthermore, its created a work force and business climate that less and less values their people and more and more uses them and disposes of them when the next guru comes along.

    Politically speaking the “moral” right has contributed to as much as if not more than the “immoral” left in the destruction of the family.

  • Larry

    SG and Frank, out of the park home runs! On every account. The trend in America is overall increased dispersing individualism, and usually it goes under the sugar coating of “need to wait for career X” or some such. It’s PURE hogwash. People can prepare for careers while having families and IF extended families help. But everyone is busy with their individualism. Furthermore, its created a work force and business climate that less and less values their people and more and more uses them and disposes of them when the next guru comes along.

    Politically speaking the “moral” right has contributed to as much as if not more than the “immoral” left in the destruction of the family.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 136 Hey, I totally agree. But Asians are real people. You can’t just not count them like they are robots. Also, not just Wellesley but also, MIT which has overall gender balance but not in every class.

    http://www.quora.com/Massachusetts-Institute-of-Technology/Why-is-the-female-to-male-ratio-so-high-for-the-Earth-and-Planetary-Sciences-major-Course-12-at-MIT

    anyway, I was just making the point that there is a general trend. MIT is not any more representative than Liberty University would be for a question like this. My point is just that there do exist identifiable and quantifiable trends, and they don’t shown men as being worse than women. Well, the GSS does, but I think we can see that has to be self report bias because it isn’t possible.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 136 Hey, I totally agree. But Asians are real people. You can’t just not count them like they are robots. Also, not just Wellesley but also, MIT which has overall gender balance but not in every class.

    http://www.quora.com/Massachusetts-Institute-of-Technology/Why-is-the-female-to-male-ratio-so-high-for-the-Earth-and-Planetary-Sciences-major-Course-12-at-MIT

    anyway, I was just making the point that there is a general trend. MIT is not any more representative than Liberty University would be for a question like this. My point is just that there do exist identifiable and quantifiable trends, and they don’t shown men as being worse than women. Well, the GSS does, but I think we can see that has to be self report bias because it isn’t possible.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “They put their home up for sale, pack up the contents oftheir homes, to ship back oversees – that’s how it’s done.”

    Sounds like a good deal for everyone. Right honorable. And good for the economy. Wouldn’t it be cool if people from some other continents did the same?

    Still shows that people who are smart know that American education is the best. All that handwringing in Washington and the media is just a shakedown.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “They put their home up for sale, pack up the contents oftheir homes, to ship back oversees – that’s how it’s done.”

    Sounds like a good deal for everyone. Right honorable. And good for the economy. Wouldn’t it be cool if people from some other continents did the same?

    Still shows that people who are smart know that American education is the best. All that handwringing in Washington and the media is just a shakedown.

  • kerner

    Larry @141:
    “But everyone is busy with their individualism. Furthermore, its created a work force and business climate that less and less values their people and more and more uses them and disposes of them when the next guru comes along”.

    Now THAT is a homerun in its own right. And it destroys family ties when the kid blows off his family ties to take that job 1,500 miles away that feeds his individualism, but that he loses 5-10 years later when the needs of the company change.

  • kerner

    Larry @141:
    “But everyone is busy with their individualism. Furthermore, its created a work force and business climate that less and less values their people and more and more uses them and disposes of them when the next guru comes along”.

    Now THAT is a homerun in its own right. And it destroys family ties when the kid blows off his family ties to take that job 1,500 miles away that feeds his individualism, but that he loses 5-10 years later when the needs of the company change.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It’s not an impossibility. It is possible if they are all going to the same girls.

    I know you are reasonable. Here is an article explaining it.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/weekinreview/12kolata.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    It’s not an impossibility. It is possible if they are all going to the same girls.

    I know you are reasonable. Here is an article explaining it.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/weekinreview/12kolata.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” when the kid blows off his family ties to take that job 1,500 miles away that feeds his individualism, but that he loses 5-10 years later when the needs of the company change.”

    This is an important topic in its own right. Consider bright middle class kids going to college. The social capital they have from their hometown means nothing at big State U. They start over building it. After four years, they go to a company somewhere else and start over again. Then they are transferred and start over again. This makes it very hard for middle class people to maintain community among themselves. Consider the higher classes. They live in a few areas, go to the same small elite high schools and colleges. Then they are recruited by top firms run by people their families know. They are interconnected all of their lives. I do not think this is a conspiracy or some other goofy thing. It is just normal to want to be with people you know and get good education and employment. It is actually healthy. Also, people in smaller towns and rural areas sometimes are able to achieve this. However, many middle class people are really in a rat race.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    ” when the kid blows off his family ties to take that job 1,500 miles away that feeds his individualism, but that he loses 5-10 years later when the needs of the company change.”

    This is an important topic in its own right. Consider bright middle class kids going to college. The social capital they have from their hometown means nothing at big State U. They start over building it. After four years, they go to a company somewhere else and start over again. Then they are transferred and start over again. This makes it very hard for middle class people to maintain community among themselves. Consider the higher classes. They live in a few areas, go to the same small elite high schools and colleges. Then they are recruited by top firms run by people their families know. They are interconnected all of their lives. I do not think this is a conspiracy or some other goofy thing. It is just normal to want to be with people you know and get good education and employment. It is actually healthy. Also, people in smaller towns and rural areas sometimes are able to achieve this. However, many middle class people are really in a rat race.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Plus, to get into wellesley, applicants have to be the single minded types that have no social lives

    I thought colleges frowned on that sort of thing and that applicants have to show all this community involvement service etc., write personal essays demonstrating their congeniality etc. Or is that just a way to keep out too many boring Asians?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Plus, to get into wellesley, applicants have to be the single minded types that have no social lives

    I thought colleges frowned on that sort of thing and that applicants have to show all this community involvement service etc., write personal essays demonstrating their congeniality etc. Or is that just a way to keep out too many boring Asians?

  • kerner

    sg:

    Right. As I said, I’ve been pretty blessed so far. Of course, that could change. But I hope your situation works out so that you remain close to your kids wwhen they become adults.

  • kerner

    sg:

    Right. As I said, I’ve been pretty blessed so far. Of course, that could change. But I hope your situation works out so that you remain close to your kids wwhen they become adults.

  • kerner

    “Or is that just a way to keep out too many boring Asians?”

    If it is, it isn’t working. ;)

  • kerner

    “Or is that just a way to keep out too many boring Asians?”

    If it is, it isn’t working. ;)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    What works for one Christian man or woman, when seeking a mate, is different – some can wait, orthers cannot. If they can’t wait, they should marry. No one knows the heart, except the LORD.

    Yeah, that is what I have been arguing for.

    All the university surveys are useless if those taking the survey have no interest in the LORD, don’t believe that there is a God, and have little to no foundation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – when it comes to virginity, marriage, etc., it’s of the world.

    So, if some godless atheist comes up with a cure for cancer it will be useless. Okay. Because going out and finding info is just useless. Well, ultimately, I guess. But with that attitude I guess I would never need to ever do anything.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    What works for one Christian man or woman, when seeking a mate, is different – some can wait, orthers cannot. If they can’t wait, they should marry. No one knows the heart, except the LORD.

    Yeah, that is what I have been arguing for.

    All the university surveys are useless if those taking the survey have no interest in the LORD, don’t believe that there is a God, and have little to no foundation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – when it comes to virginity, marriage, etc., it’s of the world.

    So, if some godless atheist comes up with a cure for cancer it will be useless. Okay. Because going out and finding info is just useless. Well, ultimately, I guess. But with that attitude I guess I would never need to ever do anything.

  • Grace

    sg @ 150

    This is what I wrote @ 135: “All the university surveys are useless if those taking the survey have no interest in the LORD, don’t believe that there is a God, and have little to no foundation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – when it comes to virginity, marriage, etc., it’s of the world.

    sg @150 So, if some godless atheist comes up with a cure for cancer it will be useless. Okay. Because going out and finding info is just useless. Well, ultimately, I guess. But with that attitude I guess I would never need to ever do anything.”

    I wasn’t writing about cures, I was referring to marriage and virginity. You do twist and turn a comment. It never fails, until you finally run out of steam!

  • Grace

    sg @ 150

    This is what I wrote @ 135: “All the university surveys are useless if those taking the survey have no interest in the LORD, don’t believe that there is a God, and have little to no foundation in the Gospel of Jesus Christ – when it comes to virginity, marriage, etc., it’s of the world.

    sg @150 So, if some godless atheist comes up with a cure for cancer it will be useless. Okay. Because going out and finding info is just useless. Well, ultimately, I guess. But with that attitude I guess I would never need to ever do anything.”

    I wasn’t writing about cures, I was referring to marriage and virginity. You do twist and turn a comment. It never fails, until you finally run out of steam!

  • Fws

    What a fun discussion . Thanks kerner.

    Sg. I really really am starting to like you.

  • Fws

    What a fun discussion . Thanks kerner.

    Sg. I really really am starting to like you.

  • Grace

    We might need some ‘hip boots :roll:

  • Grace

    We might need some ‘hip boots :roll:

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I wasn’t writing about cures, I was referring to marriage and virginity. You do twist and turn a comment.

    Can you explain what you meant? Because the structure of the comment communicates that finding information is useless if it is info about people of indeterminate religious affiliation.

    1)

    The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year.

    So is this information somehow more useful because the survey respondents are Christians? Why?

    2)

    According to the article, only 56% of Princeton undergraduates have had intercourse. At Harvard 59% of the undergraduates are non-virgins, and at MIT, only a slight majority, 51%, have had intercourse. Further, only 65% of MIT graduate students have had sex.

    But this information is less useful because we don’t know what percent of the people are married or Christian?

    Why is it useless to know information about people if you don’t know whether they are Christian?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I wasn’t writing about cures, I was referring to marriage and virginity. You do twist and turn a comment.

    Can you explain what you meant? Because the structure of the comment communicates that finding information is useless if it is info about people of indeterminate religious affiliation.

    1)

    The National Association of Evangelicals says 80% of single evangelicals between the ages of 18 and 29 have been sexually active, and 64 percent have had sex during the past year.

    So is this information somehow more useful because the survey respondents are Christians? Why?

    2)

    According to the article, only 56% of Princeton undergraduates have had intercourse. At Harvard 59% of the undergraduates are non-virgins, and at MIT, only a slight majority, 51%, have had intercourse. Further, only 65% of MIT graduate students have had sex.

    But this information is less useful because we don’t know what percent of the people are married or Christian?

    Why is it useless to know information about people if you don’t know whether they are Christian?

  • Grace

    sg,

    “Can you explain what you meant? Because the structure of the comment communicates that finding information is useless if it is info about people of indeterminate religious affiliation.”

    No I won’t – you can go back to my post @151 – I didn’t use statistics or a survey. As I said before, SAME POST: I wasn’t writing about cures, I was referring to marriage and virginity. You do twist and turn a comment. It never fails, until you finally run out of steam! “

    You can cite all the data/surveys as fast as you can google, which appears to be your M.O. That doesn’t mean they are correct.

    You love “crunching” numbers, as you’ve mentioned many times on other threads – so be it, that doesn’t mean they are accurate.

    Some survey’s have value, others, when trying to determine sexual habits are questionable at best. Young adults, either male or female, answer questionnaires with a hoot, jokingly. Perhaps for their peer’s to observe – either negative or positive!

  • Grace

    sg,

    “Can you explain what you meant? Because the structure of the comment communicates that finding information is useless if it is info about people of indeterminate religious affiliation.”

    No I won’t – you can go back to my post @151 – I didn’t use statistics or a survey. As I said before, SAME POST: I wasn’t writing about cures, I was referring to marriage and virginity. You do twist and turn a comment. It never fails, until you finally run out of steam! “

    You can cite all the data/surveys as fast as you can google, which appears to be your M.O. That doesn’t mean they are correct.

    You love “crunching” numbers, as you’ve mentioned many times on other threads – so be it, that doesn’t mean they are accurate.

    Some survey’s have value, others, when trying to determine sexual habits are questionable at best. Young adults, either male or female, answer questionnaires with a hoot, jokingly. Perhaps for their peer’s to observe – either negative or positive!

  • Anonymous

    For those of you who actually do want more statistics, one recent book that covers this territory is “Premarital Sex in America: How Young Americans Meet, Mate, and Think About Marrying” by Mark Regnerus, Jeremy Uecker.
    Given the depth of some of the interviews used, I don’t think anyone will be able to claim that they were answered jokingly.

  • Anonymous

    For those of you who actually do want more statistics, one recent book that covers this territory is “Premarital Sex in America: How Young Americans Meet, Mate, and Think About Marrying” by Mark Regnerus, Jeremy Uecker.
    Given the depth of some of the interviews used, I don’t think anyone will be able to claim that they were answered jokingly.

  • Grace

    Anonymous @ 156

    I’m aware of the book.

    The entire world from the beginning of time, has turned it’s back on the LORD, and HIS Commandments, His HOLY Word. Having said that, all the survey’s statistics of sinful lives won’t change. Man most often, chooses a sinful path. We don’t need statistics to prove that fact.

    It appears man is just beginning to realize how sinful man is, and to top it off, doesn’t care.

    Very few hold the Bible to be true, the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be the ONLY WAY to Eternal Life.

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Matthew 7

  • Grace

    Anonymous @ 156

    I’m aware of the book.

    The entire world from the beginning of time, has turned it’s back on the LORD, and HIS Commandments, His HOLY Word. Having said that, all the survey’s statistics of sinful lives won’t change. Man most often, chooses a sinful path. We don’t need statistics to prove that fact.

    It appears man is just beginning to realize how sinful man is, and to top it off, doesn’t care.

    Very few hold the Bible to be true, the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be the ONLY WAY to Eternal Life.

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Matthew 7

  • fws

    grace @ 157

    “The entire world from the beginning of time, has turned it’s back on the LORD, and HIS Commandments, His HOLY Word.”

    No need for the false modesty Grace. Everyone but you right?

  • fws

    grace @ 157

    “The entire world from the beginning of time, has turned it’s back on the LORD, and HIS Commandments, His HOLY Word.”

    No need for the false modesty Grace. Everyone but you right?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You can cite all the data/surveys as fast as you can google, which appears to be your M.O. That doesn’t mean they are correct.

    Right, but do you have a reason to think that this particular survey is wrong? Or that students at elite colleges are more likely to say they are virgins even when they aren’t? Why do you think they aren’t correct?

    Some survey’s have value, others, when trying to determine sexual habits are questionable at best.

    Okay, so what is it that you question about it?

    Why would MIT graduate students lie to social science survey takers by claiming to be virgins if they aren’t?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You can cite all the data/surveys as fast as you can google, which appears to be your M.O. That doesn’t mean they are correct.

    Right, but do you have a reason to think that this particular survey is wrong? Or that students at elite colleges are more likely to say they are virgins even when they aren’t? Why do you think they aren’t correct?

    Some survey’s have value, others, when trying to determine sexual habits are questionable at best.

    Okay, so what is it that you question about it?

    Why would MIT graduate students lie to social science survey takers by claiming to be virgins if they aren’t?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace,

    People google and cite stuff on blogs because we can’t rip a page out of a journal and send it in 5 seconds. Since others have put the stuff out there for the convenience of all of us, I am not sure why you think it is so bad to google something to expedite substantiating the premises of various arguments. Why does it bother you that people use google to refer to things they want to tell others? I don’t get it. Google is just a tool. Sure, you have to consider the source, but you can see the source when the page is cited, so you know where it is coming from.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace,

    People google and cite stuff on blogs because we can’t rip a page out of a journal and send it in 5 seconds. Since others have put the stuff out there for the convenience of all of us, I am not sure why you think it is so bad to google something to expedite substantiating the premises of various arguments. Why does it bother you that people use google to refer to things they want to tell others? I don’t get it. Google is just a tool. Sure, you have to consider the source, but you can see the source when the page is cited, so you know where it is coming from.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @156

    Thanks for the book suggestion. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @156

    Thanks for the book suggestion. :-)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Young adults, either male or female, answer questionnaires with a hoot, jokingly. Perhaps for their peer’s to observe – either negative or positive!

    Okay, but if that were the case, why would we see a distinct trend? Like math majors think it is funny to say they are virgins, but humanities majors think it is funny to say they are not virgins? I mean, that sounds like goofy social engineer thinking when they don’t get results they like, they just imagine some other cause that is not implied in the actual data.

    Also, MIT grad students have the same mentality as high school kids might when answering surveys? Really? What in your experience would imply that is the case?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Young adults, either male or female, answer questionnaires with a hoot, jokingly. Perhaps for their peer’s to observe – either negative or positive!

    Okay, but if that were the case, why would we see a distinct trend? Like math majors think it is funny to say they are virgins, but humanities majors think it is funny to say they are not virgins? I mean, that sounds like goofy social engineer thinking when they don’t get results they like, they just imagine some other cause that is not implied in the actual data.

    Also, MIT grad students have the same mentality as high school kids might when answering surveys? Really? What in your experience would imply that is the case?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Women should be concerned about their future, especially if their husband becomes ill, or passes away.

    Insurance?

    Just a suggestion.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Women should be concerned about their future, especially if their husband becomes ill, or passes away.

    Insurance?

    Just a suggestion.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Women are a vital part of the work force in this country. Without them, we wouldn’t have the medical staffs, both in hospitals and physicians offices.

    The labor participation rate in the US is 58%. If 75% of women went home tomorrow, the world would go right on. There are plenty of men to do the work. That is not an argument for sending women home. It just makes the point that there are plenty of men to do the work if women were not doing it. Women can do it. They just don’t really need to. Meanwhile, at home, family life in America has deteriorated to crisis level. Women are vitally important to the home. To the workplace, they are not.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Women are a vital part of the work force in this country. Without them, we wouldn’t have the medical staffs, both in hospitals and physicians offices.

    The labor participation rate in the US is 58%. If 75% of women went home tomorrow, the world would go right on. There are plenty of men to do the work. That is not an argument for sending women home. It just makes the point that there are plenty of men to do the work if women were not doing it. Women can do it. They just don’t really need to. Meanwhile, at home, family life in America has deteriorated to crisis level. Women are vitally important to the home. To the workplace, they are not.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @158

    “The entire world from the beginning of time, has turned it’s back on the LORD, and HIS Commandments, His HOLY Word.”

    fws,

    Do you see the confusion of Law and Gospel that may be embedded in the writer’s thinking. At the surface it appears that people are fallen because they reject the Law, which while true is not the half of it. If all theology is Christology then as we see Christ prefigured in all of the Old Testament, then it is rejection of faith in Christ that is what is really going on. Okay, I am expressing this awkwardly, but I think you can see what I mean.

    Holy Word = ? the Law? Christ? Christ is the Living Word. He fulfills the Law, but is He the Law? I am thinking no.

    So, I guess my point is that the quote above is somewhat ambiguous and two Christians could disagree as to what is expressed by it depending on their understanding of the Law and the Gospel while at the same time agreeing on the words.

    What do you think?

    I think people talk past one another when they don’t agree on the meaning of the terms they use. This may be an example.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @158

    “The entire world from the beginning of time, has turned it’s back on the LORD, and HIS Commandments, His HOLY Word.”

    fws,

    Do you see the confusion of Law and Gospel that may be embedded in the writer’s thinking. At the surface it appears that people are fallen because they reject the Law, which while true is not the half of it. If all theology is Christology then as we see Christ prefigured in all of the Old Testament, then it is rejection of faith in Christ that is what is really going on. Okay, I am expressing this awkwardly, but I think you can see what I mean.

    Holy Word = ? the Law? Christ? Christ is the Living Word. He fulfills the Law, but is He the Law? I am thinking no.

    So, I guess my point is that the quote above is somewhat ambiguous and two Christians could disagree as to what is expressed by it depending on their understanding of the Law and the Gospel while at the same time agreeing on the words.

    What do you think?

    I think people talk past one another when they don’t agree on the meaning of the terms they use. This may be an example.

  • fws

    sg @ 165

    My dear, Dear, and I do mean DEAR! Sister in Christ:

    I was reading your latest batch of posts. Absolute, ruthless, brilliance. eg: “Insurance? just a thought.”

    I would hate to be at the receiving end of manifestly obvious observations. The hardest thing in the world to see is what is right under our nose.

    Then..I read what you just wrote here.
    I experienced a profound physical reaction. It started with goosebumps and ended in a tear.

    Sg. dear, darling sg; You have manages to reduce to a single sentence what I have been trying to say here with eyeglazing paragraphs.

    “whatsoever is not of faith is sin:.
    The opposite of sin is not goodness (even though God both demands and makes that happen in Old Adam).

    The opposite of sin is , alone, faith in Christ.
    It is Baptism that is the true end of sin, death and the power of the devil.
    Faith does what no army of Moses, with his threats, carrots, cajolings, promises, rewards, etc could ever wring out of the human heart.

    You really do get it.
    That is the source of your wonderful clarity in this thread sg.
    And so you are now teaching that required outward purely practical neighbor-focussed goodness of the body and yet…

    THE true Sacrifice that alone can please God, is the sacrifice of a heart that is at rest in the Works of Another.

    That other neighborly sacrifice is about the death of Old Adam who needs to just drop dead. And that is the work of ours in life. To become living sacrifices for the good of 0ur neighbors. To wash diapers and sleep on sofas to make life better for others.

    sg you must be an amazing wife and mother. I dont have a clue what you look like , but your beauty and adornment is what the Bible describes as a virtuous woman.

  • fws

    sg @ 165

    My dear, Dear, and I do mean DEAR! Sister in Christ:

    I was reading your latest batch of posts. Absolute, ruthless, brilliance. eg: “Insurance? just a thought.”

    I would hate to be at the receiving end of manifestly obvious observations. The hardest thing in the world to see is what is right under our nose.

    Then..I read what you just wrote here.
    I experienced a profound physical reaction. It started with goosebumps and ended in a tear.

    Sg. dear, darling sg; You have manages to reduce to a single sentence what I have been trying to say here with eyeglazing paragraphs.

    “whatsoever is not of faith is sin:.
    The opposite of sin is not goodness (even though God both demands and makes that happen in Old Adam).

    The opposite of sin is , alone, faith in Christ.
    It is Baptism that is the true end of sin, death and the power of the devil.
    Faith does what no army of Moses, with his threats, carrots, cajolings, promises, rewards, etc could ever wring out of the human heart.

    You really do get it.
    That is the source of your wonderful clarity in this thread sg.
    And so you are now teaching that required outward purely practical neighbor-focussed goodness of the body and yet…

    THE true Sacrifice that alone can please God, is the sacrifice of a heart that is at rest in the Works of Another.

    That other neighborly sacrifice is about the death of Old Adam who needs to just drop dead. And that is the work of ours in life. To become living sacrifices for the good of 0ur neighbors. To wash diapers and sleep on sofas to make life better for others.

    sg you must be an amazing wife and mother. I dont have a clue what you look like , but your beauty and adornment is what the Bible describes as a virtuous woman.

  • kerner

    AND, she drives a fab car! ;)

  • kerner

    AND, she drives a fab car! ;)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg you must be an amazing wife and mother.”

    No, no, no.
    I am a poor miserable sinner. I am not good.

    I put my confidence solely in Him who rescues me from this body of death.

    Whenever my brother was thanked by someone, he would wryly reply, “Don’t thank me. Thank God I had the money.” Despite not being religious, he really expressed the truth that all good comes from God, not from us.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “sg you must be an amazing wife and mother.”

    No, no, no.
    I am a poor miserable sinner. I am not good.

    I put my confidence solely in Him who rescues me from this body of death.

    Whenever my brother was thanked by someone, he would wryly reply, “Don’t thank me. Thank God I had the money.” Despite not being religious, he really expressed the truth that all good comes from God, not from us.

  • Other Gary

    A very interesting thread. What strikes me, however, is that in 165 comments, contributed by 20 individuals, there was not one comment (on or off topic) that showed any serious consideration for the suggestion that single Christians might use contraceptives to prevent disease, pregnancy, or abortion. Lots of other proposals for addressing sexual desire among younger adult Christians, mostly advocating earlier marriages, but in 165 comments, no one wants to discuss whether there are any pros to contraceptive use, only dismissing it on account of the cons? Really?

    I suppose it comes down to how the question Mr. Olasky asked was initially framed:
    “Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried?”

    Here we see that any thoughtful consideration was precluded, since Mr. Olasky has already deemed the proposal an example of the “world’s wisdom,” and therefore has set it against Christian faith and morality from the start. “If not,” he asks, “how have you and your church promoted a biblical sexual ethic…”

    I doubt when the NAE took up topic of contraceptives for unmarried Christians they looked at it as an ideal way to promote any sexual ethic, biblical or otherwise. I think they correctly considered the statistics cited, and realized single Christians ARE having sex, and it would be unrealistic to expect that will change anytime soon. The estimates of how many abortions this has resulted in is certainly their main concern.

    For myself, I don’t see this as a no-brainer either way. At the moment I am tending to favor the idea of recommending contraceptive use. Obviously, on this thread, that makes one of us!

  • Other Gary

    A very interesting thread. What strikes me, however, is that in 165 comments, contributed by 20 individuals, there was not one comment (on or off topic) that showed any serious consideration for the suggestion that single Christians might use contraceptives to prevent disease, pregnancy, or abortion. Lots of other proposals for addressing sexual desire among younger adult Christians, mostly advocating earlier marriages, but in 165 comments, no one wants to discuss whether there are any pros to contraceptive use, only dismissing it on account of the cons? Really?

    I suppose it comes down to how the question Mr. Olasky asked was initially framed:
    “Should we accept the world’s wisdom and recommend contraception for the unmarried?”

    Here we see that any thoughtful consideration was precluded, since Mr. Olasky has already deemed the proposal an example of the “world’s wisdom,” and therefore has set it against Christian faith and morality from the start. “If not,” he asks, “how have you and your church promoted a biblical sexual ethic…”

    I doubt when the NAE took up topic of contraceptives for unmarried Christians they looked at it as an ideal way to promote any sexual ethic, biblical or otherwise. I think they correctly considered the statistics cited, and realized single Christians ARE having sex, and it would be unrealistic to expect that will change anytime soon. The estimates of how many abortions this has resulted in is certainly their main concern.

    For myself, I don’t see this as a no-brainer either way. At the moment I am tending to favor the idea of recommending contraceptive use. Obviously, on this thread, that makes one of us!

  • fws

    other gary @ 169

    This group is not what you think it is Mr Other Gary MD.
    Stick around.
    I am not opposed, not in any way, to your approach as a medical professional. And I don’t think most others (except for Grace and a few others) drive that to “then you support abortion!

    Relax. enjoy the discussion.
    Consider this: I am a gay man here pretty well integrated into the discussion. Where on a consciously conservative, christian, politically right leaning blog are you going to find something like that?
    Nowhere.
    I want you to feel welcome here Other Gary, and I believe I am speaking for our host Dr Veith and for all the other Lutherans and closet Lutherans here (yeah reg and J dean. those would yous guys).

    Stick around. Please.

  • fws

    other gary @ 169

    This group is not what you think it is Mr Other Gary MD.
    Stick around.
    I am not opposed, not in any way, to your approach as a medical professional. And I don’t think most others (except for Grace and a few others) drive that to “then you support abortion!

    Relax. enjoy the discussion.
    Consider this: I am a gay man here pretty well integrated into the discussion. Where on a consciously conservative, christian, politically right leaning blog are you going to find something like that?
    Nowhere.
    I want you to feel welcome here Other Gary, and I believe I am speaking for our host Dr Veith and for all the other Lutherans and closet Lutherans here (yeah reg and J dean. those would yous guys).

    Stick around. Please.

  • Other Gary

    No, Frank, you misunderstand….I posted under “Other Gary” so as not to be confused with the good doctor.

    If I’d just posted under Gary, how confusing would that be? Exactly.

  • Other Gary

    No, Frank, you misunderstand….I posted under “Other Gary” so as not to be confused with the good doctor.

    If I’d just posted under Gary, how confusing would that be? Exactly.

  • Other Gary

    And while we’re on the topic, Gary the doctor did sound as though he had perhaps given the pros the most consideration.

  • Other Gary

    And while we’re on the topic, Gary the doctor did sound as though he had perhaps given the pros the most consideration.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Do the “pro” aspects exist in reality?

    When abortion was legalized, conceptions increased 6% and births decreased. It has been observed that increased contraception leads to increases in abortions and illegitimacy. With increased availability of contraception came higher and sustained rates of STD’s.

    So, it does not appear that the pros that have been hypothesized have actually materialized. We ran the experiment expecting outcome A and got B. Shall we continue to expect A no matter how many times we get B?

    God says the answer is marriage. It appears He is correct, again.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Do the “pro” aspects exist in reality?

    When abortion was legalized, conceptions increased 6% and births decreased. It has been observed that increased contraception leads to increases in abortions and illegitimacy. With increased availability of contraception came higher and sustained rates of STD’s.

    So, it does not appear that the pros that have been hypothesized have actually materialized. We ran the experiment expecting outcome A and got B. Shall we continue to expect A no matter how many times we get B?

    God says the answer is marriage. It appears He is correct, again.

  • fws

    sg @ 173

    I am not suggesting that there is any pro aspects really sg. Please bear with me. I am trying to express a nuance and am not finding the way.

    Try this metaphor, trying to get at what I am saying. the metaphor is illustration not proof.

    Here in Rio people drive crazy. Cars are expensive. Motorcycles less so.

    Lets say that the protections that a car offers , bumpers, metal, seat belts are standings condoms/the pill etc. and that motorcycles represent sex without any of that protection from potential consequences.

    If I drive a motorcycle, I am going to be deterred from driving crazy, aware of the behavior of others around me etc. Why? I know that I am very exposed and rather unprotected from the consequences of errors in judgement.

    In a car, I feel a psychological “permission” to let my guard down, and not be so nervous or responsible as to consequences . there is more room for error.

    Does this mean that I will be less responsible and alert and careful than i would be on a motorcycle? Probably so, sinful human nature being what it is.

    Is a parent to says : son , if you are gonna drive, you need to have a car, encouraging less caution or responsibility? no. So what is the parental aim? To spare their child of at least some of the ptential consequences of the bad choices or actions not just of themselves but of the others around them that inevitably will impact their lives.

    I know this analogy can be dismantled in a number of different ways. I am not trying to prove or assert a point logically. I am trying to highlight some distinctions rather, that are so closely connected that they are nearly impossible to distinguish. Yet I say that that distinction is useful and necessary for us to really practice that morality that is about diminishing the suffering that sin causes.

  • fws

    sg @ 173

    I am not suggesting that there is any pro aspects really sg. Please bear with me. I am trying to express a nuance and am not finding the way.

    Try this metaphor, trying to get at what I am saying. the metaphor is illustration not proof.

    Here in Rio people drive crazy. Cars are expensive. Motorcycles less so.

    Lets say that the protections that a car offers , bumpers, metal, seat belts are standings condoms/the pill etc. and that motorcycles represent sex without any of that protection from potential consequences.

    If I drive a motorcycle, I am going to be deterred from driving crazy, aware of the behavior of others around me etc. Why? I know that I am very exposed and rather unprotected from the consequences of errors in judgement.

    In a car, I feel a psychological “permission” to let my guard down, and not be so nervous or responsible as to consequences . there is more room for error.

    Does this mean that I will be less responsible and alert and careful than i would be on a motorcycle? Probably so, sinful human nature being what it is.

    Is a parent to says : son , if you are gonna drive, you need to have a car, encouraging less caution or responsibility? no. So what is the parental aim? To spare their child of at least some of the ptential consequences of the bad choices or actions not just of themselves but of the others around them that inevitably will impact their lives.

    I know this analogy can be dismantled in a number of different ways. I am not trying to prove or assert a point logically. I am trying to highlight some distinctions rather, that are so closely connected that they are nearly impossible to distinguish. Yet I say that that distinction is useful and necessary for us to really practice that morality that is about diminishing the suffering that sin causes.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    One more thing. I think it is fairly likely that sexually active evangelical singles aged 18-29 are already using contraception and are still getting these abysmal results.

    Also, those contraceptive failure rates are per year, not lifetime.

    Consider this frank appraisal of contraception failure in an Alternet article:

    “You have 300 possibilities to get pregnant in your life,” says Peg Johnston, the director of an abortion clinic in Binghamton, New York. “A one percent failure rate — assuming the best possible use of contraception — is still three abortions,” she says. “In what endeavor is a one percent failure rate not acceptable?”

    http://www.alternet.org/rights/28366/?page=1

    So the annual rate of pill failure with perfect use may be 1-2% (higher for low dose pills), but the lifetime rate is 300% or plan on having 3 kids or 3 abortions if you use the pill.

    When they tell young women the odds, they don’t actually explain what the odds mean in practical terms. Two women in my family had two kids in three years while on the pill. Two others never experienced failure. That is why we have stats to show us the risk beyond just folks we know.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    One more thing. I think it is fairly likely that sexually active evangelical singles aged 18-29 are already using contraception and are still getting these abysmal results.

    Also, those contraceptive failure rates are per year, not lifetime.

    Consider this frank appraisal of contraception failure in an Alternet article:

    “You have 300 possibilities to get pregnant in your life,” says Peg Johnston, the director of an abortion clinic in Binghamton, New York. “A one percent failure rate — assuming the best possible use of contraception — is still three abortions,” she says. “In what endeavor is a one percent failure rate not acceptable?”

    http://www.alternet.org/rights/28366/?page=1

    So the annual rate of pill failure with perfect use may be 1-2% (higher for low dose pills), but the lifetime rate is 300% or plan on having 3 kids or 3 abortions if you use the pill.

    When they tell young women the odds, they don’t actually explain what the odds mean in practical terms. Two women in my family had two kids in three years while on the pill. Two others never experienced failure. That is why we have stats to show us the risk beyond just folks we know.

  • Stephen

    Frank’s right. Theological breakthrough moment alert @ 165!

    Luther said three things make a theologian: prayer, meditation, and Anfechtung. sg, what the heck?

  • Stephen

    Frank’s right. Theological breakthrough moment alert @ 165!

    Luther said three things make a theologian: prayer, meditation, and Anfechtung. sg, what the heck?

  • fws

    sg @ 175

    I would not deny what you present. they are the facts. condoms are not 100%

    but is the aim of Mercy that God requires to prevent damage or to provide paliatives? to mitigate the suffering that sinful choices will always result in?

    An important paliative is to get people to see that putting ones hand in a fire will do harm. One does not need to try it. Mercy is to get people to believe that they can learn from advice rather than have pain teach them the same lesson.

    But yet, in my analogy, a doctor will treat an accident victim and not really care whether he is hurt because he disobeyed his parents advice and bought a motorcycle. his vocation, at that point, is to treat the suffering that are the consequences of a bad moral choice.

    It is the vocation of others to deal with training that person to make the right choices. Each vocation plays its role. Doctors role is to be sort of a-moral. not immoral. Pastors are to forgive, not to give lessons in the pulpit as to how to do moral pushups. Parents and police and judges and traffic cops are given the task of enforcing carrot and stick and good moral choices to minimize, not eliminate , the work of doctors and police and judges.

    In all of these vocations, it is really God who is making both the law be done as to restraint and mercy. We have the illusion that parents and pastors and doctors and children have a choice to do or not do the Law that results in Justice and Mercy, self control and salving the consequences of immorality.

    This is an illusion. The Law does us. We dont do it. Even the antinomian judge in Luke 18 who was widowed in his conscience , even from love, ended up doing exactly what the Law demanded!

    The law will always get it’s man. or woman. Our only choice is to learn to go along with the program willingly, or to be forced to comply by pain and punishment or if that fails, the hangman awaits.

    We really have not way to not keep the Law of God for it is God the Holy Spirit who rules all men in with and under the Law.

  • fws

    sg @ 175

    I would not deny what you present. they are the facts. condoms are not 100%

    but is the aim of Mercy that God requires to prevent damage or to provide paliatives? to mitigate the suffering that sinful choices will always result in?

    An important paliative is to get people to see that putting ones hand in a fire will do harm. One does not need to try it. Mercy is to get people to believe that they can learn from advice rather than have pain teach them the same lesson.

    But yet, in my analogy, a doctor will treat an accident victim and not really care whether he is hurt because he disobeyed his parents advice and bought a motorcycle. his vocation, at that point, is to treat the suffering that are the consequences of a bad moral choice.

    It is the vocation of others to deal with training that person to make the right choices. Each vocation plays its role. Doctors role is to be sort of a-moral. not immoral. Pastors are to forgive, not to give lessons in the pulpit as to how to do moral pushups. Parents and police and judges and traffic cops are given the task of enforcing carrot and stick and good moral choices to minimize, not eliminate , the work of doctors and police and judges.

    In all of these vocations, it is really God who is making both the law be done as to restraint and mercy. We have the illusion that parents and pastors and doctors and children have a choice to do or not do the Law that results in Justice and Mercy, self control and salving the consequences of immorality.

    This is an illusion. The Law does us. We dont do it. Even the antinomian judge in Luke 18 who was widowed in his conscience , even from love, ended up doing exactly what the Law demanded!

    The law will always get it’s man. or woman. Our only choice is to learn to go along with the program willingly, or to be forced to comply by pain and punishment or if that fails, the hangman awaits.

    We really have not way to not keep the Law of God for it is God the Holy Spirit who rules all men in with and under the Law.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t see a problem with what you are saying, fws. My point is that the results we see likely include contraceptive or condom usage. I find it improbable (as well as undocumented) that these sexually active Christian singles are using contraceptives or condoms less than their non-Christian counterparts after controlling for other sociological factors like income, education etc. They go to the doctor like non-Christians, read magazine ads, watch TV, go to public colleges, so they know how to get and use contraception. I think they are already using it at rates comparable to non-Christians.

    I just don’t think we can improve outcomes by recommending contraceptives or condoms.

    We look at the rates of pregnancy or abortion among these singles and think how terrible it is when in reality those are about the rates you would expect of a population using birth control. People think you can do better but no, the technology does not have a tiny failure rate. 1/3 reported an unplanned pregnancy. Sounds pretty consistent with published failure rates. A similar healthy population of non contracepting married people in that age range would yield about 3 kids per woman on average by age 29. These are the most fertile years with the highest contraceptive failure rates.

    We can however do spiritual harm by implying they aren’t sinning and need not repent. Since I consider that important, I also think it more merciful to call for repentance and expect the church to hold to proper teaching including repentance of sins. Which brings us back to marriage. These healthy normal singles who want healthy sex lives need to find mates and marry them. Rather than promote what is wrong, we should promote marriage. If churches were solidly pushing marriage as the proper way to manage our natural desires, then we would probably see better results. Promote marriage. Compromising won’t improve their prospects now or for eternity.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t see a problem with what you are saying, fws. My point is that the results we see likely include contraceptive or condom usage. I find it improbable (as well as undocumented) that these sexually active Christian singles are using contraceptives or condoms less than their non-Christian counterparts after controlling for other sociological factors like income, education etc. They go to the doctor like non-Christians, read magazine ads, watch TV, go to public colleges, so they know how to get and use contraception. I think they are already using it at rates comparable to non-Christians.

    I just don’t think we can improve outcomes by recommending contraceptives or condoms.

    We look at the rates of pregnancy or abortion among these singles and think how terrible it is when in reality those are about the rates you would expect of a population using birth control. People think you can do better but no, the technology does not have a tiny failure rate. 1/3 reported an unplanned pregnancy. Sounds pretty consistent with published failure rates. A similar healthy population of non contracepting married people in that age range would yield about 3 kids per woman on average by age 29. These are the most fertile years with the highest contraceptive failure rates.

    We can however do spiritual harm by implying they aren’t sinning and need not repent. Since I consider that important, I also think it more merciful to call for repentance and expect the church to hold to proper teaching including repentance of sins. Which brings us back to marriage. These healthy normal singles who want healthy sex lives need to find mates and marry them. Rather than promote what is wrong, we should promote marriage. If churches were solidly pushing marriage as the proper way to manage our natural desires, then we would probably see better results. Promote marriage. Compromising won’t improve their prospects now or for eternity.

  • Larry

    sg @ 165,

    That is a HUGE statement. There’s not 1 in 10,000 that see that in original sin or what Adam’s original state of righteousness was and thus everything else falls apart after that. It’s why most people even get David’s real sin wrong and don’t grasp Luther’s exposition of that event.

    This is also at the root of the real Pharisee who has in essence made the Law god above God, and most theologies/confessions out there!

    HUGE, HUGE, HUGE!!!

  • Larry

    sg @ 165,

    That is a HUGE statement. There’s not 1 in 10,000 that see that in original sin or what Adam’s original state of righteousness was and thus everything else falls apart after that. It’s why most people even get David’s real sin wrong and don’t grasp Luther’s exposition of that event.

    This is also at the root of the real Pharisee who has in essence made the Law god above God, and most theologies/confessions out there!

    HUGE, HUGE, HUGE!!!

  • fws

    sg @ 178

    “We can however do spiritual harm by implying they aren’t sinning and need not repent. Since I consider that important, I also think it more merciful to call for repentance and expect the church to hold to proper teaching including repentance of sins. Which brings us back to marriage. These healthy normal singles who want healthy sex lives need to find mates and marry them. Rather than promote what is wrong, we should promote marriage.”

    Amen! I think the confusion is this:

    The vocation of the fire department is to put out fires.

    There are fewer fires when people are taught at an early age, by their parents , that it is dangerous to play with matches. Different vocation. Same objectives.

    The confusion is where the religous expect doctors or public health services in their public service announcements to put their finger in the hole of the moral dike at the point of their applying the bandaid to the wound. Wrong vocation to do this.

    I am far less likely to get tested and treated for a venerial disease if I think my doctor is going to lecture me as part of the process. Better perhaps for him to be poker faced or even smiling and I get tested, and dont end up infecting others.

    Of COURSE it is far far better for me to keep it in my pants! And there is lots of pyschological scarring and wretched dehumanization that goes with that sort of promiscuity that treats sex, and the object of that sex like a plate of cheap food on a cheap and disposable paper plate, and one’s own body in the same dishonorable and unloving sort of way. But….. it is not the doctor’s vocation that is the wise place to place that Law chokepoint and control.

    The genie at that point is already outta the bottle. This is more of a practical what works when matter than a moral issue. And reasonable people can and should debate and disagree, and….. use statistics! to get at what is most effective, sin being a given.

    A strict religious moralist can end up just creating more human suffering this way.

    “They get what they deserve!” is not something that should be the christian attitude or even that of society.

    That saying is simply a fact. Justice WILL happen. Just desserts , karma, etc. Reason knows this. And this knowing acts as a useful curb.

    But mercy is to get the opposite of what we have deserved by our actions and choices. And God desires mercy and not sacrifice.

  • fws

    sg @ 178

    “We can however do spiritual harm by implying they aren’t sinning and need not repent. Since I consider that important, I also think it more merciful to call for repentance and expect the church to hold to proper teaching including repentance of sins. Which brings us back to marriage. These healthy normal singles who want healthy sex lives need to find mates and marry them. Rather than promote what is wrong, we should promote marriage.”

    Amen! I think the confusion is this:

    The vocation of the fire department is to put out fires.

    There are fewer fires when people are taught at an early age, by their parents , that it is dangerous to play with matches. Different vocation. Same objectives.

    The confusion is where the religous expect doctors or public health services in their public service announcements to put their finger in the hole of the moral dike at the point of their applying the bandaid to the wound. Wrong vocation to do this.

    I am far less likely to get tested and treated for a venerial disease if I think my doctor is going to lecture me as part of the process. Better perhaps for him to be poker faced or even smiling and I get tested, and dont end up infecting others.

    Of COURSE it is far far better for me to keep it in my pants! And there is lots of pyschological scarring and wretched dehumanization that goes with that sort of promiscuity that treats sex, and the object of that sex like a plate of cheap food on a cheap and disposable paper plate, and one’s own body in the same dishonorable and unloving sort of way. But….. it is not the doctor’s vocation that is the wise place to place that Law chokepoint and control.

    The genie at that point is already outta the bottle. This is more of a practical what works when matter than a moral issue. And reasonable people can and should debate and disagree, and….. use statistics! to get at what is most effective, sin being a given.

    A strict religious moralist can end up just creating more human suffering this way.

    “They get what they deserve!” is not something that should be the christian attitude or even that of society.

    That saying is simply a fact. Justice WILL happen. Just desserts , karma, etc. Reason knows this. And this knowing acts as a useful curb.

    But mercy is to get the opposite of what we have deserved by our actions and choices. And God desires mercy and not sacrifice.


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