Another mass shooting, this time by a fascist rocker

Another mass shooting, this time at a Sikh temple in Wade Page in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, just outside of Milwaukee.  Six people were killed and three were wounded, including a policeman who is in critical condition.  The killer, who was fatally shot by a police officer, was Wade Michael Page, a fairly well-known guitarist in the fascist rock scene.

Some of you may remember that in my book on fascism I discuss the fascist aesthetic–the thrill of violence, the release of dark inner impulses, the Nietzschean exaltation of the will and the rejection of moral restraints, etc.–and how this manifests itself in certain strains of punk and metal music.  I also tie into the skinheads.  I don’t recall there being at the time a specific rock genre that I was aware of explicitly connected not just to white supremacy but to Hitler’s National Socialism, but there is now.  (There are photos of Page posing before a Swastika.)  But despite the apparent absence of Christian faith in his life, he is being called a “Christian terrorist“!  People need to read my book to see how fascism is completely and utterly opposed to Christianity and, specifically, to the Bible, which fascists condemn as a “Jewish book.”  That is, some of them may laud “Christian civilization,” but their agenda is to turn Christianity into just a cultural religion, one that gives divine sanction to the culture, which means eliminating Christianity’s catholicity, otherworldly salvation, moral absolutes, transcendence, and other so-called “Jewish”–that is to say, Biblical– elements.  Of course, there are people today from across the political spectrum who want to purge Christianity in some of these same ways, which is what my book warns against.

UPDATE:  It is odd, though, that the neo-Nazi would attack people from India.  Upper caste Indians are thought to be descendants of the original tribe known as the “Aryans.”  Or, to use the more acceptable term now for that particular ancient people group, they are the “Indo’s” in “Indo-European.”  In fact, the Christian theologian from India Vishal Mangalwadi, who published an Indian edition of my book, is concerned about a fascist movement in India, which exalts “Aryanism,” brings back the Swastika (which derives from that culture), and practices Nazi rituals.   Page doesn’t even know his own fascist racial mythology.

Gunman in Wisconsin was deeply involved in white-supremacist music scene – The Washington Post.

 

 

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • fjsteve

    Actually, these genres of music has been around for decades. In fact, I personally remember white power skinhead punk being around during the heyday of the Orange County Punk scene in the 80′s. You can look up Rock Against Communism in the 70′s which was directly tied to National Front politics (see Nick Griffin). The Hammerskins themselves, who have always been linked to Neo-Nazi rock and punk, have been around since the 80′s.

  • fjsteve

    Actually, these genres of music has been around for decades. In fact, I personally remember white power skinhead punk being around during the heyday of the Orange County Punk scene in the 80′s. You can look up Rock Against Communism in the 70′s which was directly tied to National Front politics (see Nick Griffin). The Hammerskins themselves, who have always been linked to Neo-Nazi rock and punk, have been around since the 80′s.

  • http://www.caryschwarz.com saddler

    This book addresses many issues we face today. I couldn’t recommend it more highly. I’m making my way through ‘The Bondage of the Will’…relevant stuff for our time.

    BTW, has anyone read ‘Are You My Mother’ by P.D Eastman for a little study on ‘the will’? :)

  • http://www.caryschwarz.com saddler

    This book addresses many issues we face today. I couldn’t recommend it more highly. I’m making my way through ‘The Bondage of the Will’…relevant stuff for our time.

    BTW, has anyone read ‘Are You My Mother’ by P.D Eastman for a little study on ‘the will’? :)

  • Tom Hering

    Who besides Mark Juergensmeyer is calling Wade Michael Page a “Christian terrorist”? Who besides the most militant of atheists (people who already hate Christianity) would agree with Juergensmeyer?

  • Tom Hering

    Who besides Mark Juergensmeyer is calling Wade Michael Page a “Christian terrorist”? Who besides the most militant of atheists (people who already hate Christianity) would agree with Juergensmeyer?

  • Joe

    I’ve been following this pretty closely (since I’m in Milwaukee) and until I saw the link in this post, I had not heard anyone call Page a Christian terrorist. The linked article doesn’t contain any sources to back up the claim that Page identified as a Christian or that he belonged to any white supremacy groups that claimed to be Christian.

    It is being reported that Page was member of Hammerskin Nation, a Neo-Nazi group that has a heavy focus on producing white power music. Page played in several bands affiliated with Hammerskin Nation.

    Page’s ex-girlfriend seems to be connected in some fashion to Volksfront a Neo-Nazi group headquartered in Oregon (they don’t allow women members — but there are pictures of her at Volksfront gatherings).

    Poking around the internet over the last couple of days, I have not found anything that suggests either of these groups uses Christian imagery or claims to be Christian.

  • Joe

    I’ve been following this pretty closely (since I’m in Milwaukee) and until I saw the link in this post, I had not heard anyone call Page a Christian terrorist. The linked article doesn’t contain any sources to back up the claim that Page identified as a Christian or that he belonged to any white supremacy groups that claimed to be Christian.

    It is being reported that Page was member of Hammerskin Nation, a Neo-Nazi group that has a heavy focus on producing white power music. Page played in several bands affiliated with Hammerskin Nation.

    Page’s ex-girlfriend seems to be connected in some fashion to Volksfront a Neo-Nazi group headquartered in Oregon (they don’t allow women members — but there are pictures of her at Volksfront gatherings).

    Poking around the internet over the last couple of days, I have not found anything that suggests either of these groups uses Christian imagery or claims to be Christian.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    You want people to read your book, but I hear millions of people screaming, “don’t ruin my opinions with facts!”

    That said this is the first I heard anybody call him a “Christian terrorist.” Everything else I read simply reported on his association with white supremacy groups.

  • Dr. Luther in the 21st Century

    You want people to read your book, but I hear millions of people screaming, “don’t ruin my opinions with facts!”

    That said this is the first I heard anybody call him a “Christian terrorist.” Everything else I read simply reported on his association with white supremacy groups.

  • CRB

    I wonder what version of the truth Hollywood will come up with when they make a movie about this tragedy? Do you suppose they may take the “Christian terrorist“ role and play it up? Hmm?

  • CRB

    I wonder what version of the truth Hollywood will come up with when they make a movie about this tragedy? Do you suppose they may take the “Christian terrorist“ role and play it up? Hmm?

  • fjsteve

    Dr. Veith, I’d love to hear your take on Hindutva, the RSS, and how Hindu nationalism relates to the history of National Socialism in Europe.

  • fjsteve

    Dr. Veith, I’d love to hear your take on Hindutva, the RSS, and how Hindu nationalism relates to the history of National Socialism in Europe.

  • Cincinnatus

    “[A] fairly well-known guitarist in the fascist rock scene.”

    So, not really well-known at all, right?

    Anyway, since it seems that commentators aren’t actually making a habit of labeling Page a Christian, what do we think of the more general ascription “terrorist”? Is it at all problematic that the government is treating this massacre as an instance of domestic terrorism? (And why isn’t the Batman massacre domestic terrorism if so?) What about considering him “right wing”?

  • Cincinnatus

    “[A] fairly well-known guitarist in the fascist rock scene.”

    So, not really well-known at all, right?

    Anyway, since it seems that commentators aren’t actually making a habit of labeling Page a Christian, what do we think of the more general ascription “terrorist”? Is it at all problematic that the government is treating this massacre as an instance of domestic terrorism? (And why isn’t the Batman massacre domestic terrorism if so?) What about considering him “right wing”?

  • Joe

    I have a problem with labeling terrorists right wing or left wing. I think the fact that they actually blow stuff up or shoot people demonstrates that they are outside the wings of normal ideologies.

    As for calling him a terrorist, the feds clarified on Monday that they are treating it as a possible domestic terrorism situation. The Patriot Act has defined domestic terrorism. By making this claim they can put the feds in charge of the investigation. I am always nervous about the feds displacing the local authorities and I will be interested to see their justification once all the facts are known. The trigger for the feds was the connection to white supremacy. The definition of domestic terrorism includes terrorizing the civilian population or a portion of it in an attempt to effect a change in gov’t policy.

  • Joe

    I have a problem with labeling terrorists right wing or left wing. I think the fact that they actually blow stuff up or shoot people demonstrates that they are outside the wings of normal ideologies.

    As for calling him a terrorist, the feds clarified on Monday that they are treating it as a possible domestic terrorism situation. The Patriot Act has defined domestic terrorism. By making this claim they can put the feds in charge of the investigation. I am always nervous about the feds displacing the local authorities and I will be interested to see their justification once all the facts are known. The trigger for the feds was the connection to white supremacy. The definition of domestic terrorism includes terrorizing the civilian population or a portion of it in an attempt to effect a change in gov’t policy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    He seems like a terrorist but he doesn’t seem to be representing whatever group he is affiliated with because they aren’t claiming him or validating his actions. Now that may be just for convenience because it would be manifestly stupid to do so as they practically would be admitting to possibly conspiring to commit mass murder, hate crimes etc. So, yeah the Feds should investigate the terrorist angle. Any weirdo racist hate group that has a member murder a bunch of innocent people deserves massive scrutiny to see what they are saying among themselves. I have heard in Norway, these kinds of groups target Christian churches. The guy is an obvious evil (psycho?) murderer, but I don’t think the Sikhs are so dumb that they think this is a Christian thing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    He seems like a terrorist but he doesn’t seem to be representing whatever group he is affiliated with because they aren’t claiming him or validating his actions. Now that may be just for convenience because it would be manifestly stupid to do so as they practically would be admitting to possibly conspiring to commit mass murder, hate crimes etc. So, yeah the Feds should investigate the terrorist angle. Any weirdo racist hate group that has a member murder a bunch of innocent people deserves massive scrutiny to see what they are saying among themselves. I have heard in Norway, these kinds of groups target Christian churches. The guy is an obvious evil (psycho?) murderer, but I don’t think the Sikhs are so dumb that they think this is a Christian thing.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    I think the guy was stupid enough to confuse Sikhs with Muslims. He saw turbans, and just assumed they were Muslims.

    The Federal Government was well aware that he was a powder keg ready to explode.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    I think the guy was stupid enough to confuse Sikhs with Muslims. He saw turbans, and just assumed they were Muslims.

    The Federal Government was well aware that he was a powder keg ready to explode.

  • http:/Forsomereason,IwantedtopresslikeonPetea/www.facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    What I’m surprised at, is that the mainstream media haven’t described Page as a “Tea Party activist.” Yet.

  • http:/Forsomereason,IwantedtopresslikeonPetea/www.facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    What I’m surprised at, is that the mainstream media haven’t described Page as a “Tea Party activist.” Yet.

  • Tom Hering

    Got a bit of a persecution complex going there, Mike? :-D

  • Tom Hering

    Got a bit of a persecution complex going there, Mike? :-D

  • fjsteve

    I don’t know for sure but I suspect he didn’t care if they were Muslim or Sikh, they were foreigners of the darker persuasion. In his ideology, this is all that really matters.

  • fjsteve

    I don’t know for sure but I suspect he didn’t care if they were Muslim or Sikh, they were foreigners of the darker persuasion. In his ideology, this is all that really matters.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Actually, since 9/11, their have been numerous incidences of hate crimes against Sikhs in the US has increased a lot, mainly because of their being confused with Muslims, due to the Turbans (see this list, for example: http://www.buzzfeed.com/summeranne/a-tragic-history-of-hate-crimes-against-sikhs-in-t) . Not that an attack on Muslims is any less heinous.

    But there is an old saying that those claiming racial superiority (groups and individuals) generally prove the contrary.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Actually, since 9/11, their have been numerous incidences of hate crimes against Sikhs in the US has increased a lot, mainly because of their being confused with Muslims, due to the Turbans (see this list, for example: http://www.buzzfeed.com/summeranne/a-tragic-history-of-hate-crimes-against-sikhs-in-t) . Not that an attack on Muslims is any less heinous.

    But there is an old saying that those claiming racial superiority (groups and individuals) generally prove the contrary.

  • Cincinnatus

    I suppose it’s possible that he mistook the Sikhs for Muslims–and anyone who is stupid enough to murder seven people senselessly is stupid enough to make such a mistake. We’ll never know.

    I think it’s unlikely that he was mistaken, though. Sikhs don’t look particularly like Muslims; they’re the stereotypical Indians, and Muslims don’t even wear Turbans. White supremacists, by definition, hate anyone who isn’t white. This gentleman lived in the south Milwaukee area. Sikhs have a strong presence in the south Milwaukee area. Perhaps he felt a particular grievance against a group of “furreners” who had taken up residence–and perhaps employment–in his community.

  • Cincinnatus

    I suppose it’s possible that he mistook the Sikhs for Muslims–and anyone who is stupid enough to murder seven people senselessly is stupid enough to make such a mistake. We’ll never know.

    I think it’s unlikely that he was mistaken, though. Sikhs don’t look particularly like Muslims; they’re the stereotypical Indians, and Muslims don’t even wear Turbans. White supremacists, by definition, hate anyone who isn’t white. This gentleman lived in the south Milwaukee area. Sikhs have a strong presence in the south Milwaukee area. Perhaps he felt a particular grievance against a group of “furreners” who had taken up residence–and perhaps employment–in his community.

  • Jon

    We’re used in America to seeing a psycho get his hands on 1,000 rounds of ammo and do obscene damage. It’s random but expected, like the tornadoes each year that rip through some poor MidWest town, killing scores. We don’t know where it’ll hit, just that it will. So when it does, the president visits, the funerals get national coverage, sympathetic stories are written, the heroism of the victims is noted. The cash contributions pour in.

    But it’s different when the same obscene damage is done to an ethnic minority expressly because they are different. We look away, then get defensive – or play the victim card ourselves – when the shooter’s obvious motives are explained; no president visits, the funerals are ignored. We don’t stand (emotionally or financially) with these victims, like we do with those who are killed by the random psycho. We look more like the Batman movie fans than we do the Sikhs. We embrace the former, shrug off the latter.

  • Jon

    We’re used in America to seeing a psycho get his hands on 1,000 rounds of ammo and do obscene damage. It’s random but expected, like the tornadoes each year that rip through some poor MidWest town, killing scores. We don’t know where it’ll hit, just that it will. So when it does, the president visits, the funerals get national coverage, sympathetic stories are written, the heroism of the victims is noted. The cash contributions pour in.

    But it’s different when the same obscene damage is done to an ethnic minority expressly because they are different. We look away, then get defensive – or play the victim card ourselves – when the shooter’s obvious motives are explained; no president visits, the funerals are ignored. We don’t stand (emotionally or financially) with these victims, like we do with those who are killed by the random psycho. We look more like the Batman movie fans than we do the Sikhs. We embrace the former, shrug off the latter.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    When I first heard of the event, I too thought that he had mistaken Sikhs for Muslims, but latter learned that he had been in the army’s psy-ops. Wouldn’t he know better? Maybe reason is not a useful tool to understand this guy.

  • http://gslcnm.com Pastor Spomer

    When I first heard of the event, I too thought that he had mistaken Sikhs for Muslims, but latter learned that he had been in the army’s psy-ops. Wouldn’t he know better? Maybe reason is not a useful tool to understand this guy.

  • Mary

    My question is why this is considered domestic terrorism while the Fort Hood massacre is classified as “workplace violence”? It would seem that there is a much stronger tie to terrorism in the latter rather than the former

  • Mary

    My question is why this is considered domestic terrorism while the Fort Hood massacre is classified as “workplace violence”? It would seem that there is a much stronger tie to terrorism in the latter rather than the former

  • Cincinnatus

    Jon@17: Do you have any evidence for your self-righteous, race-baiting screed? Who’s “shrugging off” the Sikh massacre?

  • Cincinnatus

    Jon@17: Do you have any evidence for your self-righteous, race-baiting screed? Who’s “shrugging off” the Sikh massacre?

  • George A. Marquart

    “But despite the apparent absence of Christian faith in his life, he is being called a “Christian terrorist“! “ In his book, “Social Crisis and Anti-Semitism in Germany 1870-1945”, the author, Werner Jochmann, makes the point that of those Germans who committed the brutal horrors of torture and extermination, 90% were baptized. Meanwhile the leadership of the German Evangelical Church did not think it was either their or their parishioners’ business to interfere in the fate of non-Germanic people, because in their minds, the church and the state were an indivisible unit. Christians all.

    “It is odd, though, that the neo-Nazi would attack people from India. Upper caste Indians are thought to be descendants of the original tribe known as the ‘Aryans’.” I know I will not be able to avoid giving the impression of being supremely arrogant, but if this person has the same intellectual development as the average American voter, he will be extremely puzzled about what all those words mean.

    Peace and Joy!
    George A. Marquart

  • George A. Marquart

    “But despite the apparent absence of Christian faith in his life, he is being called a “Christian terrorist“! “ In his book, “Social Crisis and Anti-Semitism in Germany 1870-1945”, the author, Werner Jochmann, makes the point that of those Germans who committed the brutal horrors of torture and extermination, 90% were baptized. Meanwhile the leadership of the German Evangelical Church did not think it was either their or their parishioners’ business to interfere in the fate of non-Germanic people, because in their minds, the church and the state were an indivisible unit. Christians all.

    “It is odd, though, that the neo-Nazi would attack people from India. Upper caste Indians are thought to be descendants of the original tribe known as the ‘Aryans’.” I know I will not be able to avoid giving the impression of being supremely arrogant, but if this person has the same intellectual development as the average American voter, he will be extremely puzzled about what all those words mean.

    Peace and Joy!
    George A. Marquart

  • Joe

    Jon @ 17, you are obviously not in Milwaukee. Since the shooting, there have been lots of public expressions and support for the Sihk community here. There have been vigils organized by all sorts of churches and community organizations, funds have been set up to accept donations to help the families. The Sihks have graciously opened their Temple doors to the community for a memorial service that was attended Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and all sorts of community leaders and politicians. The community is grieving this loss no differently than if the victims were a bunch of Poles or Germans.

  • Joe

    Jon @ 17, you are obviously not in Milwaukee. Since the shooting, there have been lots of public expressions and support for the Sihk community here. There have been vigils organized by all sorts of churches and community organizations, funds have been set up to accept donations to help the families. The Sihks have graciously opened their Temple doors to the community for a memorial service that was attended Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews and all sorts of community leaders and politicians. The community is grieving this loss no differently than if the victims were a bunch of Poles or Germans.

  • Jon

    Following up George’s comment, American terorism, e.g., slavery, apartheid, and the inflexible Jim Crow laws, was strongly enforced by Christians and thus that conduct could easily be called Christian terorism or intraChristian terorism. It’s rather beside the point now to say that that didn’t reflect Christian behavior. Those who advocated the most vicious segregation were used to citing Scripture and going to church.

    They were our fathers and mothers.

  • Jon

    Following up George’s comment, American terorism, e.g., slavery, apartheid, and the inflexible Jim Crow laws, was strongly enforced by Christians and thus that conduct could easily be called Christian terorism or intraChristian terorism. It’s rather beside the point now to say that that didn’t reflect Christian behavior. Those who advocated the most vicious segregation were used to citing Scripture and going to church.

    They were our fathers and mothers.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus @ 16 – we’ll obviously never know about his convoluted thought process, but for other cases, your second paragraph is (partly) negated by the facts. See my link @ 15.

    Never underestimate common ignorance.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus @ 16 – we’ll obviously never know about his convoluted thought process, but for other cases, your second paragraph is (partly) negated by the facts. See my link @ 15.

    Never underestimate common ignorance.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jon, everyone has skeletons in the cupboard. We need to accept that and move on, not making new skeletons.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jon, everyone has skeletons in the cupboard. We need to accept that and move on, not making new skeletons.

  • rlewer

    Jon,

    Abolitionism and the freeing of the slaves by force through the Civil War were supported by Christians. The Civil Rights movement was led by Christian leaders.
    “They were our fathers and our mothers.”

    BTW: Only 90% of the German’s were baptized? All Germans were baptized soon after birth. Does that prove that they were instructed in Christianity? Try reading Vieth’s book.

  • rlewer

    Jon,

    Abolitionism and the freeing of the slaves by force through the Civil War were supported by Christians. The Civil Rights movement was led by Christian leaders.
    “They were our fathers and our mothers.”

    BTW: Only 90% of the German’s were baptized? All Germans were baptized soon after birth. Does that prove that they were instructed in Christianity? Try reading Vieth’s book.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Klasie (@24):

    your second paragraph is (partly) negated by the facts. See my link @ 15.

    No. Your link provides evidence that ignorant people seeking to harm Muslims often can’t tell the difference between Muslims and Sikhs, for whatever reason.

    Wade Page, however, was a white supremicist, not merely seeking to attack Muslims in particular. As such, your facts are irrelevant here. There is nothing to suggest that he was intent on harming Muslims.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Klasie (@24):

    your second paragraph is (partly) negated by the facts. See my link @ 15.

    No. Your link provides evidence that ignorant people seeking to harm Muslims often can’t tell the difference between Muslims and Sikhs, for whatever reason.

    Wade Page, however, was a white supremicist, not merely seeking to attack Muslims in particular. As such, your facts are irrelevant here. There is nothing to suggest that he was intent on harming Muslims.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Todd – yes, if you want to be nit-picky :) . He might not, but others definitely has. Speculation in the former, fact in the latter.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Todd – yes, if you want to be nit-picky :) . He might not, but others definitely has. Speculation in the former, fact in the latter.

  • Joe

    tODD @ 27 — correct. Until we know more about his particular motivation (most speculation so far seems to focus on a recent break up with his girlfriend — was he trying to win her back or so depressed that he didn’t care about his own life anymore? ugh!) we have no way to say if he made a mistake about the Sihks being Muslims.

    Also, Sihks are not obscure in Milwaukee. While there are only 3-5000 in the area, they are very visible in our community. Many of them do keep to the traditional dress or at least the Turban. Also, a couple of the families in the local Sihk community have been extremely successful in the gas station business. Their business dealings have brought (positive) attention to them and thus their community. In my experience it is much more likely that you’d see a “demonstrably” Sihk person than a “demonstrably” Muslim person in Milwaukee.

    Thus, if you were in the business of hating non-white people and you were in Milwaukee, I think the odds are that you would know who the Sihks are. And, because of the closeness of the community and the fact that there are only two Temples in the Milwaukee area for several thousand Sihks, a person determined to kill as many people as possible might see the Sihks as an easy target.

  • Joe

    tODD @ 27 — correct. Until we know more about his particular motivation (most speculation so far seems to focus on a recent break up with his girlfriend — was he trying to win her back or so depressed that he didn’t care about his own life anymore? ugh!) we have no way to say if he made a mistake about the Sihks being Muslims.

    Also, Sihks are not obscure in Milwaukee. While there are only 3-5000 in the area, they are very visible in our community. Many of them do keep to the traditional dress or at least the Turban. Also, a couple of the families in the local Sihk community have been extremely successful in the gas station business. Their business dealings have brought (positive) attention to them and thus their community. In my experience it is much more likely that you’d see a “demonstrably” Sihk person than a “demonstrably” Muslim person in Milwaukee.

    Thus, if you were in the business of hating non-white people and you were in Milwaukee, I think the odds are that you would know who the Sihks are. And, because of the closeness of the community and the fact that there are only two Temples in the Milwaukee area for several thousand Sihks, a person determined to kill as many people as possible might see the Sihks as an easy target.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those who advocated the most vicious segregation were used to citing Scripture and going to church.”

    LOL “vicious”

    Like the segregated schools in New York City, Boston, and Chicago?

    Oh wait, they aren’t using scripture to advocate segregation, therefore racial segregation in those cities is a ok.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/11/nyregion/segregation-in-new-york-city-public-schools.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Those who advocated the most vicious segregation were used to citing Scripture and going to church.”

    LOL “vicious”

    Like the segregated schools in New York City, Boston, and Chicago?

    Oh wait, they aren’t using scripture to advocate segregation, therefore racial segregation in those cities is a ok.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/11/nyregion/segregation-in-new-york-city-public-schools.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg
  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Jon,

    Some Christians and Christian denominations advocate gay marriage rather publicly. Therefore, the push for gay marriage is coming from the Christian community!!!!!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Jon,

    Some Christians and Christian denominations advocate gay marriage rather publicly. Therefore, the push for gay marriage is coming from the Christian community!!!!!

  • fjsteve

    Apartheid was American?

  • fjsteve

    Apartheid was American?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    fjsteve – it is the Afrikaans for segregation, and there is a very large similarity between them.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    fjsteve – it is the Afrikaans for segregation, and there is a very large similarity between them.

  • Tom Hering

    Perhaps he felt a particular grievance against a group of “furreners” who had taken up residence–and perhaps employment–in his community. (@ 16)

    I believe he moved from Georgia to Wisconsin earlier this year. Is that enough time for him to feel like Milwaukee was his community?

  • Tom Hering

    Perhaps he felt a particular grievance against a group of “furreners” who had taken up residence–and perhaps employment–in his community. (@ 16)

    I believe he moved from Georgia to Wisconsin earlier this year. Is that enough time for him to feel like Milwaukee was his community?

  • fjsteve

    KK, if you’re using it in the general sense of the term segregation then, sure. But apartheid referred to some very specific legislation that I don’t believe was ever enacted in the US.

  • fjsteve

    KK, if you’re using it in the general sense of the term segregation then, sure. But apartheid referred to some very specific legislation that I don’t believe was ever enacted in the US.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@35:

    I believe he moved from Georgia to Wisconsin earlier this year. Is that enough time for him to feel like Milwaukee was his community?

    Why not? It seems you’re straining at gnats. The point is that, barring some other motive–someone above suggested impressing his ex-girlfriend?–he murdered a bunch of Sikhs, who are probably the most prominent minority group in the south Milwaukee area. He lived there; they were in “his” place. For folks like this shooter, I don’t see the point in arguing that he hadn’t lived there long enough to claim “legitimately” that it was his community.

    KK@34:

    It is the Afrikaans for segregation, and there is a very large similarity between them.

    Uh, no. Apartheid literally stripped all blacks of their legal citizenship, and forcibly removed them from neighborhoods where they weren’t wanted with the power of the State. You could argue that American segregation accomplished those and other acts of discrimination informally, but I, for one, think there’s a huge difference between segregating schools and literally stripping a class of people of their citizenship. Apartheid had more in common with antebellum slavery than it did with post-war segregation.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@35:

    I believe he moved from Georgia to Wisconsin earlier this year. Is that enough time for him to feel like Milwaukee was his community?

    Why not? It seems you’re straining at gnats. The point is that, barring some other motive–someone above suggested impressing his ex-girlfriend?–he murdered a bunch of Sikhs, who are probably the most prominent minority group in the south Milwaukee area. He lived there; they were in “his” place. For folks like this shooter, I don’t see the point in arguing that he hadn’t lived there long enough to claim “legitimately” that it was his community.

    KK@34:

    It is the Afrikaans for segregation, and there is a very large similarity between them.

    Uh, no. Apartheid literally stripped all blacks of their legal citizenship, and forcibly removed them from neighborhoods where they weren’t wanted with the power of the State. You could argue that American segregation accomplished those and other acts of discrimination informally, but I, for one, think there’s a huge difference between segregating schools and literally stripping a class of people of their citizenship. Apartheid had more in common with antebellum slavery than it did with post-war segregation.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus,

    The theory was to create independent homelands, and having the black population get citizenship there. That was “big apartheid”. “Small apartheid” was racial segregation on the everyday scale – segregation in bathrooms, buses, suburbs etc. This is the part similar to US segregation in the south. That is why “The Help”looked familiar to me – that was also the employment situation of the majority of black people, although some did get to be doctors, teachers, laywers etc., in separate universities and colleges.

    Meanwhile, the situation in the homelands varied widely. Starting with Transkei’s independence in ’76, and ending with the Ciskei in ’81, these “states” failed to get international recognition. However, some deals were made – Israel sold the Ciskei military equipment, ande several homeland leaders visited Israel in their official capacity. These things were encouraged by the SA government. At least one of the states were economically successful – Bophutatswana, mainly due to enormous platinum reserves.

    However, many of the others were closer to disaster than what many wanted to admit.

    Of course, apartheid created 4 racial categories – Indian, Coloured (mixed racial origin, as well as the Khoi and San people), black and white. Eventually, Chinese immigrants were counted as white. After 1984, Indian and coloured people had parliamentary representation in separate houses of parliament.

    But to equate it to antebellum slavery is ridiculous. Nobody owned anybody. Slavery was outlawed in 1834 in what became South Africa.

    It was essentially a combination of small segregation, and regional segregation, a bit like Palestine and Israel, after 1967, in the occupied territories.

    But it was heinous nonetheless. All racial/ethnic/national discrimination/segregation is the pits.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus,

    The theory was to create independent homelands, and having the black population get citizenship there. That was “big apartheid”. “Small apartheid” was racial segregation on the everyday scale – segregation in bathrooms, buses, suburbs etc. This is the part similar to US segregation in the south. That is why “The Help”looked familiar to me – that was also the employment situation of the majority of black people, although some did get to be doctors, teachers, laywers etc., in separate universities and colleges.

    Meanwhile, the situation in the homelands varied widely. Starting with Transkei’s independence in ’76, and ending with the Ciskei in ’81, these “states” failed to get international recognition. However, some deals were made – Israel sold the Ciskei military equipment, ande several homeland leaders visited Israel in their official capacity. These things were encouraged by the SA government. At least one of the states were economically successful – Bophutatswana, mainly due to enormous platinum reserves.

    However, many of the others were closer to disaster than what many wanted to admit.

    Of course, apartheid created 4 racial categories – Indian, Coloured (mixed racial origin, as well as the Khoi and San people), black and white. Eventually, Chinese immigrants were counted as white. After 1984, Indian and coloured people had parliamentary representation in separate houses of parliament.

    But to equate it to antebellum slavery is ridiculous. Nobody owned anybody. Slavery was outlawed in 1834 in what became South Africa.

    It was essentially a combination of small segregation, and regional segregation, a bit like Palestine and Israel, after 1967, in the occupied territories.

    But it was heinous nonetheless. All racial/ethnic/national discrimination/segregation is the pits.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    BTW, the wikipedia article on apartheid is actually quite good.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    BTW, the wikipedia article on apartheid is actually quite good.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_in_South_Africa

  • Michael B.

    @Jon@23

    “American terorism, e.g., slavery, apartheid, and the inflexible Jim Crow laws, was strongly enforced by Christians and thus that conduct could easily be called Christian terorism”

    Even fundamentalist Christians have a right to be offended when it is insinuated they are associated with terrorism. You really need to look for exceptional cases to find Christians who excuse terrorism. Also, you’re really being loose with the word “terrorism”. And of course, you should probably look for more modern examples.

    Christianity has been through a lot of transformations in modern times. It’s why we’re debating whether or not gays can marry, as opposed to whether or not we should jail or execute gays.

  • Michael B.

    @Jon@23

    “American terorism, e.g., slavery, apartheid, and the inflexible Jim Crow laws, was strongly enforced by Christians and thus that conduct could easily be called Christian terorism”

    Even fundamentalist Christians have a right to be offended when it is insinuated they are associated with terrorism. You really need to look for exceptional cases to find Christians who excuse terrorism. Also, you’re really being loose with the word “terrorism”. And of course, you should probably look for more modern examples.

    Christianity has been through a lot of transformations in modern times. It’s why we’re debating whether or not gays can marry, as opposed to whether or not we should jail or execute gays.

  • SKPeterson

    Apartheid in America would be more aptly applied to our system of reservations which are largely out of sight, out of mind.

  • SKPeterson

    Apartheid in America would be more aptly applied to our system of reservations which are largely out of sight, out of mind.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SKP, I was thinking something along the same lines. One could even say – small apartheid = segregation, large apartheid = reservations. Of course, that is an overly generalized view, but there is some truth to it.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SKP, I was thinking something along the same lines. One could even say – small apartheid = segregation, large apartheid = reservations. Of course, that is an overly generalized view, but there is some truth to it.

  • Stephen

    The first thing I noticed about this killer was that he too, like many other serial murderers, had a severe drinking problem. Charles Whitman, Timothy McVeigh, Jeffery Dahmer – same thing. It’s as if they needed to crush their psychotic impulses with booze. I’m sure there are other examples. It was reported that the 911 hijackers spent a lot of time in bars.

    I’m not sure blaming this on extremism (or one’s taste in music) per se actually is accurate in itself. Nazis listened to Bach and Mozart while they gassed Jews. They liked pretty and heroic things and were opposed to “degenerate art” aka Modernism. And there is a certain moral absolutism to white supremacy, just not the kind that Dr. Veith is indicating.

    I think psychotic people are drawn to extreme views. You will find them in any community that holds rigid ideas and does not allow for dissent. If recent research is any indication, psychotic personalities are much more prevalent than we’d like to realize.

    As for the notion that “punk rock made me do it” that does not account for the role that various kinds of rock music have been geared toward and have played a role in social revolutions. Witness the current trials of punk rock women in Russia right now. They are using it as a medium of protest against totalitarianism. Also, it seems that this guy idolized Stevie Ray Vaughn, one of the greatest channelers of black music ever. Go figure.

    I’d say he was psychotic to begin with and it was only a matter of time and the right mix of circumstances.

  • Stephen

    The first thing I noticed about this killer was that he too, like many other serial murderers, had a severe drinking problem. Charles Whitman, Timothy McVeigh, Jeffery Dahmer – same thing. It’s as if they needed to crush their psychotic impulses with booze. I’m sure there are other examples. It was reported that the 911 hijackers spent a lot of time in bars.

    I’m not sure blaming this on extremism (or one’s taste in music) per se actually is accurate in itself. Nazis listened to Bach and Mozart while they gassed Jews. They liked pretty and heroic things and were opposed to “degenerate art” aka Modernism. And there is a certain moral absolutism to white supremacy, just not the kind that Dr. Veith is indicating.

    I think psychotic people are drawn to extreme views. You will find them in any community that holds rigid ideas and does not allow for dissent. If recent research is any indication, psychotic personalities are much more prevalent than we’d like to realize.

    As for the notion that “punk rock made me do it” that does not account for the role that various kinds of rock music have been geared toward and have played a role in social revolutions. Witness the current trials of punk rock women in Russia right now. They are using it as a medium of protest against totalitarianism. Also, it seems that this guy idolized Stevie Ray Vaughn, one of the greatest channelers of black music ever. Go figure.

    I’d say he was psychotic to begin with and it was only a matter of time and the right mix of circumstances.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Stephen that is a reasonable analysis. Except that the Nazi’s preferred Wagner above the others…

    One notice the same thing online too – the more a person is prone to disregard reasonable debate, or be dismissive about people, etc., the more likely they are to be extremist in their views. There are some unnamed examples on this very blog, although none are in the dangerous killer category.

    I love quoting Star Wars here – “Only a Sith speaks in absolutes”. There is no small amount of truth in that…

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Stephen that is a reasonable analysis. Except that the Nazi’s preferred Wagner above the others…

    One notice the same thing online too – the more a person is prone to disregard reasonable debate, or be dismissive about people, etc., the more likely they are to be extremist in their views. There are some unnamed examples on this very blog, although none are in the dangerous killer category.

    I love quoting Star Wars here – “Only a Sith speaks in absolutes”. There is no small amount of truth in that…

  • Cincinnatus

    Stephen@43:

    tl;dr, non-rambling version: Crazy people do crazy things.

    That mentally unbalanced but unmedicated people attempt to self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs is a well-known, well-documented fact.

  • Cincinnatus

    Stephen@43:

    tl;dr, non-rambling version: Crazy people do crazy things.

    That mentally unbalanced but unmedicated people attempt to self-medicate with alcohol or other drugs is a well-known, well-documented fact.

  • Tom Hering

    No matter how thorough the investigation, the final conclusions are bound to leave victims with many of the same anguish-filled questions.

    “Whatever the answer is, we can be reasonably sure it won’t be an answer many people would say makes sense to them,” said University of Wisconsin-Madison law professor Michael Scott, who is writing a guidebook for police on hate crimes.

    “We’d like to have some peek into that twisted mind. But in the end, it’s still a peek into a twisted mind that doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know about human nature.” (AP)

  • Tom Hering

    No matter how thorough the investigation, the final conclusions are bound to leave victims with many of the same anguish-filled questions.

    “Whatever the answer is, we can be reasonably sure it won’t be an answer many people would say makes sense to them,” said University of Wisconsin-Madison law professor Michael Scott, who is writing a guidebook for police on hate crimes.

    “We’d like to have some peek into that twisted mind. But in the end, it’s still a peek into a twisted mind that doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know about human nature.” (AP)

  • Stephen

    KK -

    Yes, I meant to mention Wagner, Hitler’s favorite. I understand AH went to Bayreuth and was friends with Wagner’s widow. The letters between them exist still but have not been released by the family. So, the Nazis did have music, and again, it indulged in themes that were both pretty and heroic. It is also interesting that Nietzsche broke with Wagner when he felt his music was getting too overblown and unserious. He also despised Wagner’s antisemitism.

    At Treblinka the Nazis sorted out the Jewish musicians and made them play concerts for them. I believe this was also true at Auschwitz. And they liked anything German. The pointed being that ones taste in art is not necessarily indicative of their morality. Like I said, they liked pretty things, like pastoral scenes of lily-white children and waltzes and were opposed to Modernism precisely because they thought, for one, thing, it was Jewish. I mentioned it in response to Dr. Veith’s lumping in there with fascism. I think that is incorrect.

    Cin @45

    I’m not sure what you are pointing out. I wrote that I found it “interesting” and not uncommon or weird. I think it is also interesting that the killers in my list all were discharged from the military for the same reason, as if they sought the military as a way to discipline themselves away from their darker feelings. Just a thought. And I agree that crazy people do crazy things. This is an example of it. My sense of Dr. Veith’s post was that we could find the seeds of this crime in fascist ideology and his taste in music. Not that fascism isn’t abhorrent, but rather, in this particular instance, I think he was already a psychotic who just needed the right catalyst. It could have been skinheads or it could have been some strange pornography. It also could have been an obsession with the bible which is also used by psychotics (David Koresh and Jim Jones for instance) to fuel their delusions.

    For that matter, I wouldn’t doubt it that there were a few Wall Street psychotics who helped drive the economy into the ground. As Jennifer Burns pointed out, if we’re looking for someone who prescribed the “transvaluation of all values” we don’t have to look further than Ayn Rand. That stuff is like crack for the extreme capitalist, severing the making of money from any social responsibility whatsoever.

  • Stephen

    KK -

    Yes, I meant to mention Wagner, Hitler’s favorite. I understand AH went to Bayreuth and was friends with Wagner’s widow. The letters between them exist still but have not been released by the family. So, the Nazis did have music, and again, it indulged in themes that were both pretty and heroic. It is also interesting that Nietzsche broke with Wagner when he felt his music was getting too overblown and unserious. He also despised Wagner’s antisemitism.

    At Treblinka the Nazis sorted out the Jewish musicians and made them play concerts for them. I believe this was also true at Auschwitz. And they liked anything German. The pointed being that ones taste in art is not necessarily indicative of their morality. Like I said, they liked pretty things, like pastoral scenes of lily-white children and waltzes and were opposed to Modernism precisely because they thought, for one, thing, it was Jewish. I mentioned it in response to Dr. Veith’s lumping in there with fascism. I think that is incorrect.

    Cin @45

    I’m not sure what you are pointing out. I wrote that I found it “interesting” and not uncommon or weird. I think it is also interesting that the killers in my list all were discharged from the military for the same reason, as if they sought the military as a way to discipline themselves away from their darker feelings. Just a thought. And I agree that crazy people do crazy things. This is an example of it. My sense of Dr. Veith’s post was that we could find the seeds of this crime in fascist ideology and his taste in music. Not that fascism isn’t abhorrent, but rather, in this particular instance, I think he was already a psychotic who just needed the right catalyst. It could have been skinheads or it could have been some strange pornography. It also could have been an obsession with the bible which is also used by psychotics (David Koresh and Jim Jones for instance) to fuel their delusions.

    For that matter, I wouldn’t doubt it that there were a few Wall Street psychotics who helped drive the economy into the ground. As Jennifer Burns pointed out, if we’re looking for someone who prescribed the “transvaluation of all values” we don’t have to look further than Ayn Rand. That stuff is like crack for the extreme capitalist, severing the making of money from any social responsibility whatsoever.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Stephen – once again, good analysis. I think there are many shades of gray in Nietzsche, for instance (the little bit I know of him), but at the same time, he offers enough “crack” as you put it to attract “angry young men”.

    That would also account for the nutters in extremist Islam, especially in societies where there are restricted outlets for “lusts”, such as theirs. I’ve known enough Muslims personally to know that the typical image of Islam harbored in some circles is ridiculous. Similarly, the view of the West these same people have is coloured by the exploits of few extremists, as well as de-contextualised utterings.

    It is a two-way street. We would do well to remember it.

    Of course, occasionally, under exactly the right conditions, you get enough angry ones together to cause major calamities – the Nazi’s and WW II, the October revolution etc. Then it becomes an unstoppable snowball that draws everyone into it’s orbit.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Stephen – once again, good analysis. I think there are many shades of gray in Nietzsche, for instance (the little bit I know of him), but at the same time, he offers enough “crack” as you put it to attract “angry young men”.

    That would also account for the nutters in extremist Islam, especially in societies where there are restricted outlets for “lusts”, such as theirs. I’ve known enough Muslims personally to know that the typical image of Islam harbored in some circles is ridiculous. Similarly, the view of the West these same people have is coloured by the exploits of few extremists, as well as de-contextualised utterings.

    It is a two-way street. We would do well to remember it.

    Of course, occasionally, under exactly the right conditions, you get enough angry ones together to cause major calamities – the Nazi’s and WW II, the October revolution etc. Then it becomes an unstoppable snowball that draws everyone into it’s orbit.

  • Stephen

    Cin @ 45

    In other words, his extreme use of alcohol is perhaps an indication of a preexisting psychosis. And I apologize for being so long-winded.

  • Stephen

    Cin @ 45

    In other words, his extreme use of alcohol is perhaps an indication of a preexisting psychosis. And I apologize for being so long-winded.

  • Stephen

    KK -

    Nietzsche gets blamed for a lot of stuff. Funny we don’t blame the inflammatory rhetoric of our contemporaries to the same degree, especially if they come from “our side.” And I’m not suggesting we should. Just the opposite. I think ideas matter, and some are deadly. But in this case, I don’t think blaming ideas works. Like I said, he could have just as well been inspired by his reading of scriptures like the guy who blew up abortion clinics or those vigilantes who have assassinated abortion doctors.

    I’m not sure a bunch of skinheads who are high school drop outs could really understand Nietzsche. Maybe, but I think it is more likely that like a lot of us, we hear what we want to hear, especially when their own agenda is at stake (check out S.P. on the Chik-fil-A thread. Sheesh! Ignorant, to say the least.). The Nazis used Luther even though Luther’s prejudice was based on religion and not race, and Lutherans have been straining to separate him from them ever since. So I think it is true that the nutters will find a catalyst and employ whatever works. The “consistency” is found in the actions and not in the ideas.

  • Stephen

    KK -

    Nietzsche gets blamed for a lot of stuff. Funny we don’t blame the inflammatory rhetoric of our contemporaries to the same degree, especially if they come from “our side.” And I’m not suggesting we should. Just the opposite. I think ideas matter, and some are deadly. But in this case, I don’t think blaming ideas works. Like I said, he could have just as well been inspired by his reading of scriptures like the guy who blew up abortion clinics or those vigilantes who have assassinated abortion doctors.

    I’m not sure a bunch of skinheads who are high school drop outs could really understand Nietzsche. Maybe, but I think it is more likely that like a lot of us, we hear what we want to hear, especially when their own agenda is at stake (check out S.P. on the Chik-fil-A thread. Sheesh! Ignorant, to say the least.). The Nazis used Luther even though Luther’s prejudice was based on religion and not race, and Lutherans have been straining to separate him from them ever since. So I think it is true that the nutters will find a catalyst and employ whatever works. The “consistency” is found in the actions and not in the ideas.

  • Stephen

    KK -

    And as to your last paragraph, the really interesting and scary thing about Nazis is not that Hitler and a few others were psychotics, but that they gained so much power and people were lured into following them. That phenomenon is even more worrisome, and where the question of ideology comes in.

  • Stephen

    KK -

    And as to your last paragraph, the really interesting and scary thing about Nazis is not that Hitler and a few others were psychotics, but that they gained so much power and people were lured into following them. That phenomenon is even more worrisome, and where the question of ideology comes in.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Stephen – sure, I’m not blaming Nietzsche, merely observing that he can be a catalyst for something that already has an underlying presence. If not him, then Marx or someone else…

    And yes, I did see S.P.’s willful distortions. If anything, it points to some hang-ups, somewhere…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Stephen – sure, I’m not blaming Nietzsche, merely observing that he can be a catalyst for something that already has an underlying presence. If not him, then Marx or someone else…

    And yes, I did see S.P.’s willful distortions. If anything, it points to some hang-ups, somewhere…..

  • Stephen

    KK -

    I wasn’t suggesting that you were blaming Nietzsche. Not so sure about Dr. Veith though (if it matters and you are reading this Dr. Veith, I hesitated to comment because I was having a difficult time figuring out the point you were trying to make. Forgive me if I got something not quite right.).

    I think it is so easy to invoke Nietzsche as if he created the idea of evil or self-gratification/justification. And for that matter, I’m not even sure he wasn’t psychotic himself. Maybe he was. I think Ayn Rand probably was. I’m not sure about Marx, but maybe Lenin and certainly Stalin. Heck, maybe J.D. Salinger was. Tis’ a mystery I guess . . .

    Nietzsche did, however, seem to have a keen sense of the direction of the modern world and the consciousness that was evolving. And he has been used in a number of ways. If you recall the film “A Fish Called Wanda” they take that idea and run with it to great comic effect.

  • Stephen

    KK -

    I wasn’t suggesting that you were blaming Nietzsche. Not so sure about Dr. Veith though (if it matters and you are reading this Dr. Veith, I hesitated to comment because I was having a difficult time figuring out the point you were trying to make. Forgive me if I got something not quite right.).

    I think it is so easy to invoke Nietzsche as if he created the idea of evil or self-gratification/justification. And for that matter, I’m not even sure he wasn’t psychotic himself. Maybe he was. I think Ayn Rand probably was. I’m not sure about Marx, but maybe Lenin and certainly Stalin. Heck, maybe J.D. Salinger was. Tis’ a mystery I guess . . .

    Nietzsche did, however, seem to have a keen sense of the direction of the modern world and the consciousness that was evolving. And he has been used in a number of ways. If you recall the film “A Fish Called Wanda” they take that idea and run with it to great comic effect.

  • Stephen

    And what is up with that S. P. guy anyway? Hang ups indeed.

  • Stephen

    And what is up with that S. P. guy anyway? Hang ups indeed.

  • SKPeterson

    Well, I think Nietzsche had an influence on Nazism though indirect. To the extent that he provided an intellectual justification for Romantic Irrationalism he could be seen as providing philosophical precursors to the mindset behind fascism.

    However, that leaves out Heidegger and his phenomenology (something I’m partial to, but more so the straight up Jewish Lutheran variety of Husserl) and how all of the obvious show and artifice of fascism attracted such a widespread popularity. The Nazis weren’t a minority party – they commanded a solid plurality even at their weakest in the late 20′s.

  • SKPeterson

    Well, I think Nietzsche had an influence on Nazism though indirect. To the extent that he provided an intellectual justification for Romantic Irrationalism he could be seen as providing philosophical precursors to the mindset behind fascism.

    However, that leaves out Heidegger and his phenomenology (something I’m partial to, but more so the straight up Jewish Lutheran variety of Husserl) and how all of the obvious show and artifice of fascism attracted such a widespread popularity. The Nazis weren’t a minority party – they commanded a solid plurality even at their weakest in the late 20′s.

  • kerner

    For watever it may be worth, we are now hearing that Mr. Page killed himself, having been only badly wounded by the police.

    We are also hearing that he was despondent at being dumped by his Neo-Nazi girlfriend after he moved up here from Georgia to be with her.

    And we are hearing that the girlfriend worked as a waitress in a restaurant that was geographically very close to the Sikh temple. So close that if he spent any time at his girlfriend’s restaurant, he would have been likely to have seen the Sikhs coming and going and known what the temple was.

    Which leads to my own theory. As a despondent boyfriend, he probably wanted to commit suicide in some way that he thought would impress his racist girlfriend. A suicide mission against the “mud-people” (a neo-nazi term) was probably his way of doing it. He probably chose the Sikhs for reasons no more complicated than that they were dark skinned and nearby. I believe it was as grotesquely random as that. Which makes it all the more tragic.

  • kerner

    For watever it may be worth, we are now hearing that Mr. Page killed himself, having been only badly wounded by the police.

    We are also hearing that he was despondent at being dumped by his Neo-Nazi girlfriend after he moved up here from Georgia to be with her.

    And we are hearing that the girlfriend worked as a waitress in a restaurant that was geographically very close to the Sikh temple. So close that if he spent any time at his girlfriend’s restaurant, he would have been likely to have seen the Sikhs coming and going and known what the temple was.

    Which leads to my own theory. As a despondent boyfriend, he probably wanted to commit suicide in some way that he thought would impress his racist girlfriend. A suicide mission against the “mud-people” (a neo-nazi term) was probably his way of doing it. He probably chose the Sikhs for reasons no more complicated than that they were dark skinned and nearby. I believe it was as grotesquely random as that. Which makes it all the more tragic.

  • http:/Forsomereason,IwantedtopresslikeonPetea/www.facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Are the Sikhs in Milwaukee dark-skinned?
    There is a major concentration of Sikhs nearby where I live, and we see them all the time when we’re out and about. They seem to be mostly light-skinned, of European descent. Probably converts from among the Santa Fe touchy-feely types that are attracted to their pacifist worldview.

  • http:/Forsomereason,IwantedtopresslikeonPetea/www.facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Are the Sikhs in Milwaukee dark-skinned?
    There is a major concentration of Sikhs nearby where I live, and we see them all the time when we’re out and about. They seem to be mostly light-skinned, of European descent. Probably converts from among the Santa Fe touchy-feely types that are attracted to their pacifist worldview.

  • Tom Hering

    kerner @ 56, you made his thought process sound normal. I bet it wasn’t.

  • Tom Hering

    kerner @ 56, you made his thought process sound normal. I bet it wasn’t.

  • kerner

    Mike Westfall:

    All the Sikhs in Milwaukee that I know are Punjabi Indians, which is to say they are somewhat, but not a lot, darker skinned than I am, and probably darker skinned than Mr. Page was.

    Tom H.:

    My experience with people who have done terrible things (and as an attorney, I see plenty of those) is that their thought processes are surprisingly normal, and their actions follow pretty logically from their first principles. When a person has evil first principles, terrible things flow logically from them.

  • kerner

    Mike Westfall:

    All the Sikhs in Milwaukee that I know are Punjabi Indians, which is to say they are somewhat, but not a lot, darker skinned than I am, and probably darker skinned than Mr. Page was.

    Tom H.:

    My experience with people who have done terrible things (and as an attorney, I see plenty of those) is that their thought processes are surprisingly normal, and their actions follow pretty logically from their first principles. When a person has evil first principles, terrible things flow logically from them.

  • Stephen

    It’s not hard to believe he followed some kind of logical path to his own self destruction just as kerner describes. Nazis used reason to make their arguments, along with attempts at scientific justifications which, specious as they may have been, were convincing to both the people propagating them and those who believed it.

    However, I still think his loner status and his personal history suggests he had psychotic tendencies that only needed a spark to light a fuse. And don’t get me wrong, that’s not to excuse it. I do suspect that these kinds of personalities are less rare than we think they are. And they don’t always end up in these kinds of actions.

    So, while his reaction to being dumped may have been logical to him, it certainly isn’t normal. Maybe not the right word. To suggest that a normal thought process would lead to this is a stretch. He did a great deal more than drunk dial and make an ass of himself, or let the air out of her tires. Something was badly broken, something he ultimately had no power or internal resources to rein in.

  • Stephen

    It’s not hard to believe he followed some kind of logical path to his own self destruction just as kerner describes. Nazis used reason to make their arguments, along with attempts at scientific justifications which, specious as they may have been, were convincing to both the people propagating them and those who believed it.

    However, I still think his loner status and his personal history suggests he had psychotic tendencies that only needed a spark to light a fuse. And don’t get me wrong, that’s not to excuse it. I do suspect that these kinds of personalities are less rare than we think they are. And they don’t always end up in these kinds of actions.

    So, while his reaction to being dumped may have been logical to him, it certainly isn’t normal. Maybe not the right word. To suggest that a normal thought process would lead to this is a stretch. He did a great deal more than drunk dial and make an ass of himself, or let the air out of her tires. Something was badly broken, something he ultimately had no power or internal resources to rein in.

  • Cincinnatus

    That’s an awfully odd definition of “normal thought processes” you’ve got there, kerner, sir.

    Is there anything logically sounds in this thought process? “I am going to massacre as many random brown people as I can in a desperate bid to impress my ex-girlfriend.”

    Yeah, that’s only “normal” and “rational” if you accept that a) mass murder is morally or ethically acceptable–or at least justifiable, b) mass murder is impressive and praiseworthy to observers, c) fringe ideological dogma is an acceptable basis for action.

    By your definition, the schizophrenic is reasoning in a perfectly “normal” way if he murders his mother to silence the voices in his head. Can we trace the internal logic in Page’s head (assuming those were his actual motives)? Sure; it’s internally coherent. He’s not the Joker, and he (likely) wasn’t acting on some unknown, incomprehensible, random impulse. But “normal” thinking people don’t accept his “first principles” as acceptable bases for logical action.

  • Cincinnatus

    That’s an awfully odd definition of “normal thought processes” you’ve got there, kerner, sir.

    Is there anything logically sounds in this thought process? “I am going to massacre as many random brown people as I can in a desperate bid to impress my ex-girlfriend.”

    Yeah, that’s only “normal” and “rational” if you accept that a) mass murder is morally or ethically acceptable–or at least justifiable, b) mass murder is impressive and praiseworthy to observers, c) fringe ideological dogma is an acceptable basis for action.

    By your definition, the schizophrenic is reasoning in a perfectly “normal” way if he murders his mother to silence the voices in his head. Can we trace the internal logic in Page’s head (assuming those were his actual motives)? Sure; it’s internally coherent. He’s not the Joker, and he (likely) wasn’t acting on some unknown, incomprehensible, random impulse. But “normal” thinking people don’t accept his “first principles” as acceptable bases for logical action.

  • Stephen

    Karl Barth said that when we explain evil we efface it and take away the scandal of it. I think to some degree that is true. Apply that to the scandal of the cross and it seems to be accurate. We cannot peer into the mysteries of God and come up with definitive evidence of why bad things happen. But then, on the other hand, the question of “why?” just continues to hang out there and we feel helpless.

    It seems imprecise to me to compare Nazism as it existed in the German state to an extreme fringe group of malcontents. I think it may trivialize the impact, seriousness and complexity perpetrated by the former and likewise give far too much credit and power to the latter. Beyond that, to write this guy off as psychotic (as I have somewhat done) does not help much unless we can hope to address psychosis as more than some inevitable circumstance, but rather as a phenomenon we can deal with in some way. I’m not exactly sure what that would be, perhaps a combination of strategies that are medical, psychological, sociological and religious. It may be inevitable as a human condition but more or less preventable in its more criminally devastating manifestations. I’m not sure, but I’d like to think so.

    And as for fringe groups, this is where I become a civil libertarian. Let them speak and be seen in all their absurdity. It makes for hard work on the part of those who oppose them. It would be easier to just shut them up somehow. Better to examine them, making precise distinctions, because here is where the power of explanations is helpful. Are they all just knuckleheads? I have to admit I really don’t know. It seems like there have always been random crazy people doing horrible things as well as small groups of fanatics who flair up and burn out with every age.

    But Nazism was neither of those. It was something much larger and confounding. It was a massive turn by an entire society in both subtle and overt ways toward evil, sometimes quite consciously and at other times as a matter of course. It “became normal” would be one way to say it. To see it in great detail one needs only look at the work of Raul Hilberg. He shows with excruciating and revealing acuity what the “nazification” of a society involved at every level. Pierre Aycoberry is another.

    Some thoughts.

  • Stephen

    Karl Barth said that when we explain evil we efface it and take away the scandal of it. I think to some degree that is true. Apply that to the scandal of the cross and it seems to be accurate. We cannot peer into the mysteries of God and come up with definitive evidence of why bad things happen. But then, on the other hand, the question of “why?” just continues to hang out there and we feel helpless.

    It seems imprecise to me to compare Nazism as it existed in the German state to an extreme fringe group of malcontents. I think it may trivialize the impact, seriousness and complexity perpetrated by the former and likewise give far too much credit and power to the latter. Beyond that, to write this guy off as psychotic (as I have somewhat done) does not help much unless we can hope to address psychosis as more than some inevitable circumstance, but rather as a phenomenon we can deal with in some way. I’m not exactly sure what that would be, perhaps a combination of strategies that are medical, psychological, sociological and religious. It may be inevitable as a human condition but more or less preventable in its more criminally devastating manifestations. I’m not sure, but I’d like to think so.

    And as for fringe groups, this is where I become a civil libertarian. Let them speak and be seen in all their absurdity. It makes for hard work on the part of those who oppose them. It would be easier to just shut them up somehow. Better to examine them, making precise distinctions, because here is where the power of explanations is helpful. Are they all just knuckleheads? I have to admit I really don’t know. It seems like there have always been random crazy people doing horrible things as well as small groups of fanatics who flair up and burn out with every age.

    But Nazism was neither of those. It was something much larger and confounding. It was a massive turn by an entire society in both subtle and overt ways toward evil, sometimes quite consciously and at other times as a matter of course. It “became normal” would be one way to say it. To see it in great detail one needs only look at the work of Raul Hilberg. He shows with excruciating and revealing acuity what the “nazification” of a society involved at every level. Pierre Aycoberry is another.

    Some thoughts.

  • kerner

    Cin:

    So, what are you saying? “Normal” people commit murder only in their hearts, while those who actually murder are “abnormal”? Maybe it seems odd to you, but I do think that both are just different versions of “normal”, assuming that what we mean by “normal” is something of which most people are capable.

    Normal is not synonymous with good.

    As for rational thought leading to mass murder. The 20th century is full of examples of the triumph of reason doing exactly that, and not just in Germany. Do the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia ring any bells?

  • kerner

    Cin:

    So, what are you saying? “Normal” people commit murder only in their hearts, while those who actually murder are “abnormal”? Maybe it seems odd to you, but I do think that both are just different versions of “normal”, assuming that what we mean by “normal” is something of which most people are capable.

    Normal is not synonymous with good.

    As for rational thought leading to mass murder. The 20th century is full of examples of the triumph of reason doing exactly that, and not just in Germany. Do the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia ring any bells?


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