Sitting out the election?

I’ve talked to quite a few people who say they are planning to just sit out this election.  They refuse to vote for Obama, but they don’t like Romney, whether because he’s a Mormon or no true conservative or a tone-deaf bumbler or the same old politician or whatever.

The ones I’ve talked to generally vote Republican, so if there are many such folks who are refusing to vote, that could make a big difference in a close election.

Are any of you leaning in that direction?

Is not voting for Romney a vote for Obama?  And if so, why not just vote for Obama?  (If I did that, I would be accepted back into the bosom of my family, I would put the shades of my Democratic ancestors to rest, and I would eliminate the pang of unjustified guilt I always feel when I vote Republican.)

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Peter

    What about voting for a third party candidate? I live in a state where the electoral votes have been locked up for months already. Is voting for a third party candidate just a vote for the candidate who will win my state?

    I certainly don’t want to waste my vote, and I will vote for someone. However, if my vote doesn’t really matter anyway (because of the state that I live in), why not a third party candidate?

  • Peter

    What about voting for a third party candidate? I live in a state where the electoral votes have been locked up for months already. Is voting for a third party candidate just a vote for the candidate who will win my state?

    I certainly don’t want to waste my vote, and I will vote for someone. However, if my vote doesn’t really matter anyway (because of the state that I live in), why not a third party candidate?

  • http://www.wordsofthislfe.ca Brian Reynolds

    I can see your quandry. It is difficult or maybe not appropiate for me to give an opinion because I’m a Canadian citizen – however there can be a certainty objectivity when one is outside of a situation. I’ve been following this election of yours fairly closly. I could never vote for Republican even if Romney wasn’t a cult member. Their monetary policies are lunacy and pander to the super rich – it was what almost destroyed your economy in the first place. But I could never vote for Pres Obama (although he seems like a very nice person, good family man etc) but his advocacy of same sex marriage and abortion disqualifies him in my opinion. Sad.

  • http://www.wordsofthislfe.ca Brian Reynolds

    I can see your quandry. It is difficult or maybe not appropiate for me to give an opinion because I’m a Canadian citizen – however there can be a certainty objectivity when one is outside of a situation. I’ve been following this election of yours fairly closly. I could never vote for Republican even if Romney wasn’t a cult member. Their monetary policies are lunacy and pander to the super rich – it was what almost destroyed your economy in the first place. But I could never vote for Pres Obama (although he seems like a very nice person, good family man etc) but his advocacy of same sex marriage and abortion disqualifies him in my opinion. Sad.

  • Abby

    “Elections have consequences.” What election is foolproof? I won’t be sitting out. I couldn’t. However, if enough Obama supporters sit it out — that would be fine with me!

  • Abby

    “Elections have consequences.” What election is foolproof? I won’t be sitting out. I couldn’t. However, if enough Obama supporters sit it out — that would be fine with me!

  • fws

    reasons to vote for romney or not…

    1) if voting for a republican president could get us an anti roe vs wade supreme court we would have had one by now. rhenquist, stevens etc were republican appointees…..
    2) the power of the purse is controlled by…. the house…. republicans will retain control there short of a miracle..
    3) the republicans control an overwhelming majority of governorships (nearly 40 after this coming election) , and control a large majority of state legislatures as well.
    So where is the muscular republican push towards federalism happening? New Jersey and gov Christie? Ahem. Wisconsin and Texas? ahem.

    Vote third party and vote a straight republican ticket for everything else….

  • fws

    reasons to vote for romney or not…

    1) if voting for a republican president could get us an anti roe vs wade supreme court we would have had one by now. rhenquist, stevens etc were republican appointees…..
    2) the power of the purse is controlled by…. the house…. republicans will retain control there short of a miracle..
    3) the republicans control an overwhelming majority of governorships (nearly 40 after this coming election) , and control a large majority of state legislatures as well.
    So where is the muscular republican push towards federalism happening? New Jersey and gov Christie? Ahem. Wisconsin and Texas? ahem.

    Vote third party and vote a straight republican ticket for everything else….

  • fws

    I would be deeply troubled voting for Romney, as i would be voting for a Muslim, for religious reasons. I dont see a problem with that.

    1) the man believes that he will eventually become a God just like God the Father and Jesus are and create his own planets.
    2) His religion formally teaches all its young men, who do a compulsory 2 year missionary stint that it is moral and actually righeous to dissemble, lie and obscure central facts to achieve the winning of a higher good (which explains alot about Romney´s shifting positions…..).
    If you ask a missionary point blank if he believes he will eventually become a God exactly as Jesus and God the Father are God, he will lie to you. Romney runs from discussing is faith exactly for this reason. It would lose the election for him.
    3) Romney was not only a member of such a church, his father, grandfather and he himself have served as pastor, the equivalent of district president, the equivalent of vice presidents of the larger church, and he was the head missionary in France.
    This would be like electing a currently active Roman archbishop/cardinal, or president Harrison, or your own pastor , or the head of LCMS missionary work as POTUS. This would be very unprecidented to say the least.
    Again. since the Mormon church structure is so very different from Christian ones, this fact is obscured, and Romney intentionally wants to keep it that way.
    Just look at the roving Mormon internet trolls who will most certainly pop up here accusing people like me of religious bigotry and trying to dampen what we say…. They know what is at stake here and they are getting busy going to sites on Romney they google. Wait for one to show up here…. they will! and they will obsfuscate.
    4) A mormon president will legitimize Mormonism much as conservative christians fear that gay marriage will legitimize homosexuality. I ask this: which is worse? Really!

  • fws

    I would be deeply troubled voting for Romney, as i would be voting for a Muslim, for religious reasons. I dont see a problem with that.

    1) the man believes that he will eventually become a God just like God the Father and Jesus are and create his own planets.
    2) His religion formally teaches all its young men, who do a compulsory 2 year missionary stint that it is moral and actually righeous to dissemble, lie and obscure central facts to achieve the winning of a higher good (which explains alot about Romney´s shifting positions…..).
    If you ask a missionary point blank if he believes he will eventually become a God exactly as Jesus and God the Father are God, he will lie to you. Romney runs from discussing is faith exactly for this reason. It would lose the election for him.
    3) Romney was not only a member of such a church, his father, grandfather and he himself have served as pastor, the equivalent of district president, the equivalent of vice presidents of the larger church, and he was the head missionary in France.
    This would be like electing a currently active Roman archbishop/cardinal, or president Harrison, or your own pastor , or the head of LCMS missionary work as POTUS. This would be very unprecidented to say the least.
    Again. since the Mormon church structure is so very different from Christian ones, this fact is obscured, and Romney intentionally wants to keep it that way.
    Just look at the roving Mormon internet trolls who will most certainly pop up here accusing people like me of religious bigotry and trying to dampen what we say…. They know what is at stake here and they are getting busy going to sites on Romney they google. Wait for one to show up here…. they will! and they will obsfuscate.
    4) A mormon president will legitimize Mormonism much as conservative christians fear that gay marriage will legitimize homosexuality. I ask this: which is worse? Really!

  • SKPeterson

    I’m leaning toward sitting it out as the best available option. Further, if not voting for Romney is a vote for Obama, isn’t not voting for Obama a vote for Romney? See? Either way I (and the nation) lose. I would not be surprised if this election has one of the lowest voter turnouts in decades. So completely uninspiring; a choice between vanilla pudding or tapioca.

  • SKPeterson

    I’m leaning toward sitting it out as the best available option. Further, if not voting for Romney is a vote for Obama, isn’t not voting for Obama a vote for Romney? See? Either way I (and the nation) lose. I would not be surprised if this election has one of the lowest voter turnouts in decades. So completely uninspiring; a choice between vanilla pudding or tapioca.

  • fws

    would I vote for a non christian? I do it all the time. Would I vote for a buddhist or secularist muslim or conservative or liberal jew. why not. scientologist. Not on your life. mormon… naw. Nominal christians who may or may not be christian like huckabee or obama or nixon or bush or reagan…. why not?

    Religion matters in how we vote I suggest. And we would be foolish to try to be secularists here.

  • fws

    would I vote for a non christian? I do it all the time. Would I vote for a buddhist or secularist muslim or conservative or liberal jew. why not. scientologist. Not on your life. mormon… naw. Nominal christians who may or may not be christian like huckabee or obama or nixon or bush or reagan…. why not?

    Religion matters in how we vote I suggest. And we would be foolish to try to be secularists here.

  • Basset Horn

    I am planning on voting “none of the above is acceptable”

  • Basset Horn

    I am planning on voting “none of the above is acceptable”

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    SKP, I thought you were in Canada.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    SKP, I thought you were in Canada.

  • Michael B.

    I would only add this as a rule: If somebody sits out the election or votes 3rd party and Obama wins, he should be reminded of his vote every time he complains about Obama on this forum until 2016.

  • Michael B.

    I would only add this as a rule: If somebody sits out the election or votes 3rd party and Obama wins, he should be reminded of his vote every time he complains about Obama on this forum until 2016.

  • Richard Kauzlarich

    Just vote!

  • Richard Kauzlarich

    Just vote!

  • Barbara T.

    I am appalled that someone “would not vote” and the reasons given are amazingly short-sighted.
    Thousands have died and are dying for the right to vote. We are not electing a pope! Obama may not be a mormon but he certainly thinks he is God.

  • Barbara T.

    I am appalled that someone “would not vote” and the reasons given are amazingly short-sighted.
    Thousands have died and are dying for the right to vote. We are not electing a pope! Obama may not be a mormon but he certainly thinks he is God.

  • SKPeterson

    sg @ 9 – No. I just have several contacts there. Keeping my options open, as it were.

    Michael B. – Stuff your rule – it’s absolutely asinine. I reserve the right to complain anytime somebody takes my money, whether I voted for them or not. A vote is tantamount to giving assent to the boondoggle of a system under which we now live. I do not give my assent. Therefore, I will complain about Obama. I will complain about Romney. I will complain about Congress. I will complain about the Departments of Defense, State, Treasury, Homeland Security, Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Health and Human Services, the EPA, the Supreme Court, and their applicable counterparts in my own benighted state. Spare me the civics lesson and tell it to the jackasses who make up the government. They’re the ones that might do with a reading of the Constitution, the limits to power, and having an appreciation for the rule of law. None of which I see demonstrated in either major party candidates, their top Congressional leadership, or in most of the statehouses around the country.

    Forgive me if I find the prospect of having to vote between a choice of the Democratic Socialist or the Nationalist Socialist to not really be a choice of material significance or one requiring me to go out of my way to stand in line and provide my “voice.”

  • SKPeterson

    sg @ 9 – No. I just have several contacts there. Keeping my options open, as it were.

    Michael B. – Stuff your rule – it’s absolutely asinine. I reserve the right to complain anytime somebody takes my money, whether I voted for them or not. A vote is tantamount to giving assent to the boondoggle of a system under which we now live. I do not give my assent. Therefore, I will complain about Obama. I will complain about Romney. I will complain about Congress. I will complain about the Departments of Defense, State, Treasury, Homeland Security, Interior, Agriculture, Commerce, Health and Human Services, the EPA, the Supreme Court, and their applicable counterparts in my own benighted state. Spare me the civics lesson and tell it to the jackasses who make up the government. They’re the ones that might do with a reading of the Constitution, the limits to power, and having an appreciation for the rule of law. None of which I see demonstrated in either major party candidates, their top Congressional leadership, or in most of the statehouses around the country.

    Forgive me if I find the prospect of having to vote between a choice of the Democratic Socialist or the Nationalist Socialist to not really be a choice of material significance or one requiring me to go out of my way to stand in line and provide my “voice.”

  • Tom Hering

    Among the reasons not to vote for Romney, what about his division of Americans into the 53% and the 47%, the makers and the takers, etc.? And what happened to all the voices that objected to class warfare just a short time ago? Does the accusation of class warfare depend on which class a politician is backing?

    Sure, the defense is that Romney is simply gaffe-prone. He doesn’t put things “elegantly” (which was his self defense). But I think it’s becoming clear that Romney’s gaffes haven’t been gaffes at all, but rather the real Romney. What you saw and heard in the 47% video is what you’ll get – an opportunist who’s quick to (unsuccessfully) dissemble when he’s caught out. (A poor liar is nonetheless a liar.)

  • Tom Hering

    Among the reasons not to vote for Romney, what about his division of Americans into the 53% and the 47%, the makers and the takers, etc.? And what happened to all the voices that objected to class warfare just a short time ago? Does the accusation of class warfare depend on which class a politician is backing?

    Sure, the defense is that Romney is simply gaffe-prone. He doesn’t put things “elegantly” (which was his self defense). But I think it’s becoming clear that Romney’s gaffes haven’t been gaffes at all, but rather the real Romney. What you saw and heard in the 47% video is what you’ll get – an opportunist who’s quick to (unsuccessfully) dissemble when he’s caught out. (A poor liar is nonetheless a liar.)

  • trotk

    SK, here is why I will vote:

    If I don’t vote, my “voice” is indistinguishable from the “voice” of the apathetic. I don’t want to be lumped in with the group that doesn’t care, because I do.

    And so I will write in the name of the person that I wish could be president, simply so that at least one person (assuming the worst, that only one person sees my ballot and it is never tallied) thinks more about our system and leaders.

    Tom, the better question is whether there is a single reason to vote for Romney (assuming the voter doesn’t actually want a government that is a veneer a neo-conservativism draped over lust for increasing federal power). I can’t come up with one.

  • trotk

    SK, here is why I will vote:

    If I don’t vote, my “voice” is indistinguishable from the “voice” of the apathetic. I don’t want to be lumped in with the group that doesn’t care, because I do.

    And so I will write in the name of the person that I wish could be president, simply so that at least one person (assuming the worst, that only one person sees my ballot and it is never tallied) thinks more about our system and leaders.

    Tom, the better question is whether there is a single reason to vote for Romney (assuming the voter doesn’t actually want a government that is a veneer a neo-conservativism draped over lust for increasing federal power). I can’t come up with one.

  • trotk

    SK -

    You missed the Department of Education.

  • trotk

    SK -

    You missed the Department of Education.

  • Jack

    It seems apparent that one of two men will win in just over six weeks. I will vote for one of them.

    Does God use only Christians for the benefit of his flock? Aren’t a person’s abilities in carrying out one’s vocations from God, whether or not the person acknowledges that fact?

    I would select the best surgeon available in the field in the event that I needed life saving surgery. I would do so with the knowledge that his skills are from God. I shall vote for the man whose skills for the office I believe are the better.

  • Jack

    It seems apparent that one of two men will win in just over six weeks. I will vote for one of them.

    Does God use only Christians for the benefit of his flock? Aren’t a person’s abilities in carrying out one’s vocations from God, whether or not the person acknowledges that fact?

    I would select the best surgeon available in the field in the event that I needed life saving surgery. I would do so with the knowledge that his skills are from God. I shall vote for the man whose skills for the office I believe are the better.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Tom, he didn’t say that. He said that the message of federal tax cuts doesn’t resonate with people who don’t pay federal tax. Well, duh. 47% don’t pay federal tax. Romney can’t help lower their sales tax, property tax, FICA. I don’t think Romney is a stellar candidate, and his statement reveals that he thinks taxes are a big issue for those who are paying them. By definition, if you make enough to pay federal tax, you don’t qualify for means tested benefits. However, plenty of people who are productive are so low paid they do qualify for means tested benefits. Romney, being a financial type, perhaps figure that most voters vote their financial interests. Low wage earners should not be seen just as takers because that isn’t true. Still, if they don’t pay federal taxes, then offering to lower their federal taxes is literally offering them nothing.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Tom, he didn’t say that. He said that the message of federal tax cuts doesn’t resonate with people who don’t pay federal tax. Well, duh. 47% don’t pay federal tax. Romney can’t help lower their sales tax, property tax, FICA. I don’t think Romney is a stellar candidate, and his statement reveals that he thinks taxes are a big issue for those who are paying them. By definition, if you make enough to pay federal tax, you don’t qualify for means tested benefits. However, plenty of people who are productive are so low paid they do qualify for means tested benefits. Romney, being a financial type, perhaps figure that most voters vote their financial interests. Low wage earners should not be seen just as takers because that isn’t true. Still, if they don’t pay federal taxes, then offering to lower their federal taxes is literally offering them nothing.

  • Tom Hering

    Jack @ 17, you’ve identified a very good reason to vote for someone. But one also has to consider the ways a competent politician might be bad for the country. He’s more than just his competence or incompetence.

  • Tom Hering

    Jack @ 17, you’ve identified a very good reason to vote for someone. But one also has to consider the ways a competent politician might be bad for the country. He’s more than just his competence or incompetence.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom Hering@14: Take out the word “Romney” in your statement and replace it with the word “Obama” (and maybe change 47%/53% with 1%/99%). Ta-da! Now you can begin to see why folks like SKP and I want nothing to do with this election.

    Anyway, to the original question, how is it possible to “waste” something that has no value in the first place? If I have 200 million dollars, and I use one to light my cigar, what did I lose? If I vote at all, it’ll be third-party, but I’m increasingly disillusioned with mass democracy as a proposition. Why endorse it with my “participation”?

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom Hering@14: Take out the word “Romney” in your statement and replace it with the word “Obama” (and maybe change 47%/53% with 1%/99%). Ta-da! Now you can begin to see why folks like SKP and I want nothing to do with this election.

    Anyway, to the original question, how is it possible to “waste” something that has no value in the first place? If I have 200 million dollars, and I use one to light my cigar, what did I lose? If I vote at all, it’ll be third-party, but I’m increasingly disillusioned with mass democracy as a proposition. Why endorse it with my “participation”?

  • SKPeterson

    trotk @ 16. My bad. ;) I will complain about them, too. And Veterans Affairs and Labor and Energy. And the FCC. Oh! and Justice! I forgot about them.

  • SKPeterson

    trotk @ 16. My bad. ;) I will complain about them, too. And Veterans Affairs and Labor and Energy. And the FCC. Oh! and Justice! I forgot about them.

  • http://landofcaleb.wordpress.com Caleb Land

    I have been struggling over this very issue. I voted for McCain/Palin, in spite of the fact that I didn’t really like McCain, but to me Romney is a much tougher choice. Here are my Pros and Cons of voting for Romney…maybe someone can help me work them out:

    Pro: Paul Ryan
    Pro: Obama might get the ouster

    Con: Romneycare and his consistent refusal to disavow it
    Con: He is a Mormon, this has a significant effect on his worldview
    Con: His flip flop on abortion seems extremely politically expedient and I don’t see him pushing that issue AT ALL
    Con: The Republican political establishment continues to back moderate to left politicos like Romney in the future because the true conservatives just keep falling in line behind “the lesser of two evils”

    The problem with putting your thumbs over the leaks in the dam is that, eventually, you run out of thumbs. Sometimes it’s best to just build a new dam.

  • http://landofcaleb.wordpress.com Caleb Land

    I have been struggling over this very issue. I voted for McCain/Palin, in spite of the fact that I didn’t really like McCain, but to me Romney is a much tougher choice. Here are my Pros and Cons of voting for Romney…maybe someone can help me work them out:

    Pro: Paul Ryan
    Pro: Obama might get the ouster

    Con: Romneycare and his consistent refusal to disavow it
    Con: He is a Mormon, this has a significant effect on his worldview
    Con: His flip flop on abortion seems extremely politically expedient and I don’t see him pushing that issue AT ALL
    Con: The Republican political establishment continues to back moderate to left politicos like Romney in the future because the true conservatives just keep falling in line behind “the lesser of two evils”

    The problem with putting your thumbs over the leaks in the dam is that, eventually, you run out of thumbs. Sometimes it’s best to just build a new dam.

  • fws

    I liked Obama´s answer when he was asked about that guns and religion comment he made in the last election…

    “I apologized.”

    I don´t think it would have occurred to Romney to do the same. That is telling.

  • fws

    I liked Obama´s answer when he was asked about that guns and religion comment he made in the last election…

    “I apologized.”

    I don´t think it would have occurred to Romney to do the same. That is telling.

  • Jimmy Veith

    I like your last idea best.

    “Is not voting for Romney a vote for Obama? And if so, why not just vote for Obama? (If I did that, I would be accepted back into the bosom of my family, I would put the shades of my Democratic ancestors to rest, and I would eliminate the pang of unjustified guilt I always feel when I vote Republican.)”

    Come home big brother! We will welcome you back with open arms! We will kill the fatted calf and have a feast in your honor.

  • Jimmy Veith

    I like your last idea best.

    “Is not voting for Romney a vote for Obama? And if so, why not just vote for Obama? (If I did that, I would be accepted back into the bosom of my family, I would put the shades of my Democratic ancestors to rest, and I would eliminate the pang of unjustified guilt I always feel when I vote Republican.)”

    Come home big brother! We will welcome you back with open arms! We will kill the fatted calf and have a feast in your honor.

  • Tom Hering

    sg @ 18, are you sure he didn’t say that? “Victims.” “Dependent.” “Entitled.” “[Don't] take personal responsibility and care for their lives.” Seems pretty clear to me he was talking about more than just the appeal of tax cuts.

  • Tom Hering

    sg @ 18, are you sure he didn’t say that? “Victims.” “Dependent.” “Entitled.” “[Don't] take personal responsibility and care for their lives.” Seems pretty clear to me he was talking about more than just the appeal of tax cuts.

  • Julian

    If Romney has, or ever had a chance of winning this election, I’m the king of France. I would never vote for him anyway, so it suits me.

    That said, I will vote for whomever I will please knowing that in this current system, my vote is devoid of meaning, save that which I ascribe to it, and yearn for a time when individual citizens who aren’t made of money and jelly actually have a voice in the political process.

    One would have hoped that movements like the Tea Party or Occupy would have been a sign of true vox populi change, but what has come of it?

  • Julian

    If Romney has, or ever had a chance of winning this election, I’m the king of France. I would never vote for him anyway, so it suits me.

    That said, I will vote for whomever I will please knowing that in this current system, my vote is devoid of meaning, save that which I ascribe to it, and yearn for a time when individual citizens who aren’t made of money and jelly actually have a voice in the political process.

    One would have hoped that movements like the Tea Party or Occupy would have been a sign of true vox populi change, but what has come of it?

  • BW

    I am moving towards the same boat that SKP and Cincinnatus are in. I don’t know if I can vote in this election. If I do vote it would probably be for the Libertarians, heck maybe write in Ron Paul. Obama and Romney really are the same candidate, just with a different party label. It’s like you can either have “Obama,” with the classic Obama flavor, or new the Obama-lite, called “Romney.”

  • BW

    I am moving towards the same boat that SKP and Cincinnatus are in. I don’t know if I can vote in this election. If I do vote it would probably be for the Libertarians, heck maybe write in Ron Paul. Obama and Romney really are the same candidate, just with a different party label. It’s like you can either have “Obama,” with the classic Obama flavor, or new the Obama-lite, called “Romney.”

  • SKPeterson

    BW – are you calling Romney the “New Coke” as opposed to the Coke Classic of Obama? That about sums it up: they’re both just different shades of the same old Coca Cola. And if you don’t like Coke? Too bad. No Pepsi. No RC. You have to choose between New Coke or Classic Coke – like every regime apologist Coca Cola says, it will be the most important decision you could possibly make on the first Tuesday of November.

  • SKPeterson

    BW – are you calling Romney the “New Coke” as opposed to the Coke Classic of Obama? That about sums it up: they’re both just different shades of the same old Coca Cola. And if you don’t like Coke? Too bad. No Pepsi. No RC. You have to choose between New Coke or Classic Coke – like every regime apologist Coca Cola says, it will be the most important decision you could possibly make on the first Tuesday of November.

  • Random Lutheran

    I’m with #8 — and I wish that “none of the above” was an option on the ballot. The clowns that we’ve been given as candidates for the past 20+ years — by both sides — aren’t worth the paper their campaign posters are printed on. Here’s a simple rule: when either Nixon or LBJ would be a much better choice than either candidate before you, you have problems.

  • Random Lutheran

    I’m with #8 — and I wish that “none of the above” was an option on the ballot. The clowns that we’ve been given as candidates for the past 20+ years — by both sides — aren’t worth the paper their campaign posters are printed on. Here’s a simple rule: when either Nixon or LBJ would be a much better choice than either candidate before you, you have problems.

  • BW

    SKP – That’s exactly my analogy. You can use beer too, if you like. The full, classic Coors Banquet Beer, or you can have Coors light. What? No, there are NO small operation microbrews allowed in this election!

  • BW

    SKP – That’s exactly my analogy. You can use beer too, if you like. The full, classic Coors Banquet Beer, or you can have Coors light. What? No, there are NO small operation microbrews allowed in this election!

  • Mary Jack

    Christians in a democratic country are free to vote as a great honor or free to refrain. Democratically speaking, there is no law demanding each person votes. Theologically this is a matter of Christian freedom. It seems to me that people demand others vote primarily because it would help the complainer’s cause.

    Realistically, one can see refraining in short term & long term goods. Short term voting/refraining speaks of conscience and who one thinks would be good. If neither is good, why vote? Because we want the lesser of two evils. But is voting really about the lesser evils? Long term I would love better options and how will our parties produce better representation when even our votes (for lesser evil) do not show them what we actually want?

    How we view voting will determine whether we “must” vote. Voting can be a good without refraining being an evil.

  • Mary Jack

    Christians in a democratic country are free to vote as a great honor or free to refrain. Democratically speaking, there is no law demanding each person votes. Theologically this is a matter of Christian freedom. It seems to me that people demand others vote primarily because it would help the complainer’s cause.

    Realistically, one can see refraining in short term & long term goods. Short term voting/refraining speaks of conscience and who one thinks would be good. If neither is good, why vote? Because we want the lesser of two evils. But is voting really about the lesser evils? Long term I would love better options and how will our parties produce better representation when even our votes (for lesser evil) do not show them what we actually want?

    How we view voting will determine whether we “must” vote. Voting can be a good without refraining being an evil.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Con: He is a Mormon, this has a significant effect on his worldview

    Interesting. I would consider a Mormon worldview a pro not a con.

    Why is it a con for you?

    I feel that Mormon public policies would be good public policies. Their supernatural ideas about where they will be and what they will be doing when they get there don’t much impact their public policies here and now, so I don’t care.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Con: He is a Mormon, this has a significant effect on his worldview

    Interesting. I would consider a Mormon worldview a pro not a con.

    Why is it a con for you?

    I feel that Mormon public policies would be good public policies. Their supernatural ideas about where they will be and what they will be doing when they get there don’t much impact their public policies here and now, so I don’t care.

  • fws

    we should not lose sight of the fact that whoever is elected is sanctioned by God to rule over us. To. rule. over. us.

    The constitution here is wrong. We the People do not rule. We have rulers that have been placed over us by God himself. Our votes are God´s instrument for the selection process in the USA.

    That does not change the biblical fact. We are to honor , serve, and obey our rulers. We are to pray for them.

    My parents, both rabid union fdr democrats, honorably removed their bumper stickers immediately after the election. why? For the reasons I just stated. And my dad was not a christian, but he got it right.

  • fws

    we should not lose sight of the fact that whoever is elected is sanctioned by God to rule over us. To. rule. over. us.

    The constitution here is wrong. We the People do not rule. We have rulers that have been placed over us by God himself. Our votes are God´s instrument for the selection process in the USA.

    That does not change the biblical fact. We are to honor , serve, and obey our rulers. We are to pray for them.

    My parents, both rabid union fdr democrats, honorably removed their bumper stickers immediately after the election. why? For the reasons I just stated. And my dad was not a christian, but he got it right.

  • fws

    sg

    go live in utah or southern idaho for a while.
    or talk to bror erickson or the other Lutherans who live in those places.

    You will get an earful of what the mormon worldview has to do with things when they get their hands on any secular power. Pluralism is good for them only insofar as it serves mormonism.

  • fws

    sg

    go live in utah or southern idaho for a while.
    or talk to bror erickson or the other Lutherans who live in those places.

    You will get an earful of what the mormon worldview has to do with things when they get their hands on any secular power. Pluralism is good for them only insofar as it serves mormonism.

  • Cincinnatus

    fws@33:

    Eh, I’m not really sure I buy that, and I think it involves taking some Scripture out of context. To clarify, the sentiment is somewhat valid, but Lutherans tend to take it to an uncomfortable and untenable extreme. Godwin alert: was Hitler appointed by God to “rule over us”?

  • Cincinnatus

    fws@33:

    Eh, I’m not really sure I buy that, and I think it involves taking some Scripture out of context. To clarify, the sentiment is somewhat valid, but Lutherans tend to take it to an uncomfortable and untenable extreme. Godwin alert: was Hitler appointed by God to “rule over us”?

  • Carl Vehse

    Voting for Traitorbama gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

    The question on this thread is whether a voter should vote for the lesser of two evils by voting for the GOP candidate. (Such a choice in 2012 is not a trivial case where one candidate has the capabilities of all the great presidents rolled into one, but is dismissed because he parts his hair on the wrong side.)

    For a Christian, is choosing the lesser of two evils still a knowingly evil (immoral) choice? If it is, then a Christian would be correct in deciding to avoid sin and not vote for the lesser but still evil choice, even if the most evil person is elected. The election of the most evil person would be due to the evil of the people who voted for him.

  • Carl Vehse

    Voting for Traitorbama gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

    The question on this thread is whether a voter should vote for the lesser of two evils by voting for the GOP candidate. (Such a choice in 2012 is not a trivial case where one candidate has the capabilities of all the great presidents rolled into one, but is dismissed because he parts his hair on the wrong side.)

    For a Christian, is choosing the lesser of two evils still a knowingly evil (immoral) choice? If it is, then a Christian would be correct in deciding to avoid sin and not vote for the lesser but still evil choice, even if the most evil person is elected. The election of the most evil person would be due to the evil of the people who voted for him.

  • http://www.docsdining.blogspot.com Jason

    #7-Huckabee, by all I have seen, does not appear to be a “nominal” Christian.

  • http://www.docsdining.blogspot.com Jason

    #7-Huckabee, by all I have seen, does not appear to be a “nominal” Christian.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Voting for Traitorbama gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

    Not if you define enemy as an American citizen in some far off land. That enemy gets offed by an assassin/assassin drone.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Voting for Traitorbama gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

    Not if you define enemy as an American citizen in some far off land. That enemy gets offed by an assassin/assassin drone.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @34

    I understand your point that there can be examples of why Mormons setting public policy is not good. But I haven’t seen the actual examples, so all I have is a vague feeling that they would be good based on statistical outcomes in Utah. I would like to see actual examples from the Utah context. I just haven’t yet.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @34

    I understand your point that there can be examples of why Mormons setting public policy is not good. But I haven’t seen the actual examples, so all I have is a vague feeling that they would be good based on statistical outcomes in Utah. I would like to see actual examples from the Utah context. I just haven’t yet.

  • fws

    jason @ 37

    I say nominally, in name.
    There is no way to judge if that is in name only.

    There is no more or no less basis for judging whether or not obama, nixon, reagan, carter, ford, bush etc are christian.

    They are all , in name christian.
    I, in charity, accept that they all are or were.
    I don´t need to believe as an article of faith about this.

  • fws

    jason @ 37

    I say nominally, in name.
    There is no way to judge if that is in name only.

    There is no more or no less basis for judging whether or not obama, nixon, reagan, carter, ford, bush etc are christian.

    They are all , in name christian.
    I, in charity, accept that they all are or were.
    I don´t need to believe as an article of faith about this.

  • Carl Vehse

    “Not if you define enemy as an American citizen in some far off land.”

    It depends on whether that definition is a complete description of what that particular American citizen is doing.

  • Carl Vehse

    “Not if you define enemy as an American citizen in some far off land.”

    It depends on whether that definition is a complete description of what that particular American citizen is doing.

  • fws

    jason @ 37

    and it shows no lack of charity to know that Romney is most definately NOT christian. He was pastor and bishop of a church that publicly and very aggressively opposes christianity.

  • fws

    jason @ 37

    and it shows no lack of charity to know that Romney is most definately NOT christian. He was pastor and bishop of a church that publicly and very aggressively opposes christianity.

  • Quahog

    Vote third party. It doesn’t matter which one. If twenty percent of the electorate voted for the Green Party, the Libertarian Party or (my favorite) the Constitution Party, it would send a strong signal that there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the Coke and Pepsi parties.

    Yes, I know that my third party candidate will nor win. I am talking about following my conscience and sending a message.

  • Quahog

    Vote third party. It doesn’t matter which one. If twenty percent of the electorate voted for the Green Party, the Libertarian Party or (my favorite) the Constitution Party, it would send a strong signal that there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the Coke and Pepsi parties.

    Yes, I know that my third party candidate will nor win. I am talking about following my conscience and sending a message.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @41

    He was a U.S. citizen, and an enemy, and assassinated by the U.S. military. None of those are debatable. Are they?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @41

    He was a U.S. citizen, and an enemy, and assassinated by the U.S. military. None of those are debatable. Are they?

  • fws

    cinn @ 35

    extreme examples are useful.
    St Paul urged his followers to obey and pray for Nero.
    Yes. Hitler and those very many others who formed his government (he did not rule alone) had a rulership sanctioned by God.

    God also punishes us temporally with punishments and suffering. Sometimes governments do that.

    Another extreme example: physically and otherwise abusive parents. or negligent ones. Government too. Sanctioned by God? yes.

    Or churches whose earthly government, by ALL apparent evidence is full of the antichrist and actually uses all tools at its disposal to persecute physically those who cling to the Gospel because they cling to it. eg st athanasius and his treatment. the roman church against other christians. the donatists against christians. etc etc etc. Sanctioned by God? Yes.

    are we to resist evil even that is God sanctioned authority? Yes when we are told we must participate actively in that evil. often by submitting to the consequences of saying
    ‘no” to that government and suffering the legal consequences of that saying no.

    a mark of a christian is to not flee from suffering when it happens even if it is also sinful to seek out suffering as some sort of badge of honor.

  • fws

    cinn @ 35

    extreme examples are useful.
    St Paul urged his followers to obey and pray for Nero.
    Yes. Hitler and those very many others who formed his government (he did not rule alone) had a rulership sanctioned by God.

    God also punishes us temporally with punishments and suffering. Sometimes governments do that.

    Another extreme example: physically and otherwise abusive parents. or negligent ones. Government too. Sanctioned by God? yes.

    Or churches whose earthly government, by ALL apparent evidence is full of the antichrist and actually uses all tools at its disposal to persecute physically those who cling to the Gospel because they cling to it. eg st athanasius and his treatment. the roman church against other christians. the donatists against christians. etc etc etc. Sanctioned by God? Yes.

    are we to resist evil even that is God sanctioned authority? Yes when we are told we must participate actively in that evil. often by submitting to the consequences of saying
    ‘no” to that government and suffering the legal consequences of that saying no.

    a mark of a christian is to not flee from suffering when it happens even if it is also sinful to seek out suffering as some sort of badge of honor.

  • fws

    sg @ 44

    +1

  • fws

    sg @ 44

    +1

  • Jon

    sg @ 32 plus1!

    Romney is a Mormon bishop. Heck, he’s probably on his way to be a Twelver. This guy is true blue LDS.

    Now, do you think he has every incentive to be the bestest president he can be? You bet he does!

    It’s tantamount to his ticket to Exaltation if he wins, AND if he can DO everything he says to fix the sorely ailing economy.

    So, why wouldn’t I want a hard working Mormon in the presidency? Everybody acknowledges they make GREAT neighbors.

    Bottom line, as others said: Just Vote! A lot of people have fought and died for that right. It is your civic DUTY to vote.

  • Jon

    sg @ 32 plus1!

    Romney is a Mormon bishop. Heck, he’s probably on his way to be a Twelver. This guy is true blue LDS.

    Now, do you think he has every incentive to be the bestest president he can be? You bet he does!

    It’s tantamount to his ticket to Exaltation if he wins, AND if he can DO everything he says to fix the sorely ailing economy.

    So, why wouldn’t I want a hard working Mormon in the presidency? Everybody acknowledges they make GREAT neighbors.

    Bottom line, as others said: Just Vote! A lot of people have fought and died for that right. It is your civic DUTY to vote.

  • Pete

    What Jack said @17

  • Pete

    What Jack said @17

  • dwcasey

    Hey everyone, what about Gary Johnson? I’m told he’ll be on the ballot in all 50 states. I believe he is pro-choice personally, but politically, he would want to leave it up to the states to decide.

  • dwcasey

    Hey everyone, what about Gary Johnson? I’m told he’ll be on the ballot in all 50 states. I believe he is pro-choice personally, but politically, he would want to leave it up to the states to decide.

  • Cincinnatus

    Ha…I may actually vote for Gary Johnson. Some inane quiz the other told me that my policy preferences are 92% aligned with his. Whatever that means.

    I think everyone should join me in writing in Wendell Berry.

  • Cincinnatus

    Ha…I may actually vote for Gary Johnson. Some inane quiz the other told me that my policy preferences are 92% aligned with his. Whatever that means.

    I think everyone should join me in writing in Wendell Berry.

  • Jon

    Tom@ 19

    But one also has to consider the ways a competent politician might be bad for the country. He’s more than just his competence or incompetence.

    Obama is, in fact, an exceptionally great Politician. $16 Trillion in debt, a government takeover of health care that nobody likes, and a foreign policy made of milk-toast is his record.

    I think it proves your axiom correct: great politicians do not make great presidents.

    We tried the soaring politician thing now. It didn’t work. We need a shrewd business man.

  • Jon

    Tom@ 19

    But one also has to consider the ways a competent politician might be bad for the country. He’s more than just his competence or incompetence.

    Obama is, in fact, an exceptionally great Politician. $16 Trillion in debt, a government takeover of health care that nobody likes, and a foreign policy made of milk-toast is his record.

    I think it proves your axiom correct: great politicians do not make great presidents.

    We tried the soaring politician thing now. It didn’t work. We need a shrewd business man.

  • Tom Hering

    Jon, there’s a difference between running a business and leading a nation. A huge difference.

  • Tom Hering

    Jon, there’s a difference between running a business and leading a nation. A huge difference.

  • Jon

    Tom@52,

    I suggest that Obama’s 4 years of OJT and his obvious ineptitude given his sorry record are far outweighed by Mitt’s years of experience in business–and heck, even in his church leadership experience–for what this country actually needs in governance right now–which is fixing the economy. Obama hasn’t got a clue how to get things going. The dismal reports on economy and job growth coming out now are proof. Yet he keeps polishing the turd counting on his rock star status to carry him through.

  • Jon

    Tom@52,

    I suggest that Obama’s 4 years of OJT and his obvious ineptitude given his sorry record are far outweighed by Mitt’s years of experience in business–and heck, even in his church leadership experience–for what this country actually needs in governance right now–which is fixing the economy. Obama hasn’t got a clue how to get things going. The dismal reports on economy and job growth coming out now are proof. Yet he keeps polishing the turd counting on his rock star status to carry him through.

  • Tom Hering

    So. What is Mitt’s plan to save the economy? In detail.

  • Tom Hering

    So. What is Mitt’s plan to save the economy? In detail.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@54:

    So. What is Obama’s plan to save the economy? In detail.

    See? We could do this all day.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@54:

    So. What is Obama’s plan to save the economy? In detail.

    See? We could do this all day.

  • BW

    Cincinnatus @ 55,

    C’mon Cin you know better than that, he’s gonna raise taxes on the wealthy so they “pay their fair share,” to help the government “pay down the debt.”

  • BW

    Cincinnatus @ 55,

    C’mon Cin you know better than that, he’s gonna raise taxes on the wealthy so they “pay their fair share,” to help the government “pay down the debt.”

  • http://elliottbradley.com Elliott

    I explicated my thoughts on the election in a blog post that I wrote a while ago.

    http://elliottbradley.com/post/28224372939/romney

    The short version is that I’m not voting for Romney for very conservative and long term gains. I don’t think he is the right man for the job and I think that a good number of republican voters rejecting him will drive the party to offer better candidates for us in the future.

  • http://elliottbradley.com Elliott

    I explicated my thoughts on the election in a blog post that I wrote a while ago.

    http://elliottbradley.com/post/28224372939/romney

    The short version is that I’m not voting for Romney for very conservative and long term gains. I don’t think he is the right man for the job and I think that a good number of republican voters rejecting him will drive the party to offer better candidates for us in the future.

  • trotk

    Wendell Berry would save the economy. And his conception of the economy is so much more than GDP. Thanks for the idea, Cincinnatus. You would think that, with my deep love of his essays and ideas, writing him in would have occurred to me, but it hadn’t.

  • trotk

    Wendell Berry would save the economy. And his conception of the economy is so much more than GDP. Thanks for the idea, Cincinnatus. You would think that, with my deep love of his essays and ideas, writing him in would have occurred to me, but it hadn’t.

  • Tom Hering

    Both questions kind of matter, Cincinnatus. If Romney proposes he can save the economy because he’s been a successful businessman, then where’s the thing no businessman would approach the bank without – his business plan?

  • Tom Hering

    Both questions kind of matter, Cincinnatus. If Romney proposes he can save the economy because he’s been a successful businessman, then where’s the thing no businessman would approach the bank without – his business plan?

  • Cincinnatus

    BW:

    Fun fact–since you were jesting in fun, of course: the national debt is now greater than 25% of the entire household wealth in America. I.e., the government could appropriate 100% of every single item of value owned by 25% of the population and still not pay off the debt (much less avert the entitlement crisis), assuming, of course, that the 25% chosen are a representative sample.

  • Cincinnatus

    BW:

    Fun fact–since you were jesting in fun, of course: the national debt is now greater than 25% of the entire household wealth in America. I.e., the government could appropriate 100% of every single item of value owned by 25% of the population and still not pay off the debt (much less avert the entitlement crisis), assuming, of course, that the 25% chosen are a representative sample.

  • Susan

    Well, here are the results of Obama’s leadership regarding tax changes which starts January 1, 2o13:

    http://www.atr.org/days-taxmageddon-a7203

    There are also the consequences of Obama’s leadership in foreign policy. Mollie has a nice post on that:

    http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Obama-Administration-Airs-Ads-in-Pakistan-Condemning-Anti-Islam-Film

  • Susan

    Well, here are the results of Obama’s leadership regarding tax changes which starts January 1, 2o13:

    http://www.atr.org/days-taxmageddon-a7203

    There are also the consequences of Obama’s leadership in foreign policy. Mollie has a nice post on that:

    http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Obama-Administration-Airs-Ads-in-Pakistan-Condemning-Anti-Islam-Film

  • Susan

    Wanna see Romney’s plans? Simple. Go to his website: http://www.mittromney.com/issues

    To learn more about Mitt’s plan, select an issue below:

    • Afghanistan & Pakistan
    • China & East Asia
    • Iran
    • Israel
    • Latin America
    • Middle East
    • National Defense
    • Russia
    • Courts & The Constitution
    • Education
    • Energy
    • Gun Rights
    • Healthcare
    • Housing
    • Human Capital
    • Immigration
    • Labor
    • Medicare
    • Regulation
    • Social Security
    • Spending
    • Tax
    • Trade
    • Values
    • Veterans

  • Susan

    Wanna see Romney’s plans? Simple. Go to his website: http://www.mittromney.com/issues

    To learn more about Mitt’s plan, select an issue below:

    • Afghanistan & Pakistan
    • China & East Asia
    • Iran
    • Israel
    • Latin America
    • Middle East
    • National Defense
    • Russia
    • Courts & The Constitution
    • Education
    • Energy
    • Gun Rights
    • Healthcare
    • Housing
    • Human Capital
    • Immigration
    • Labor
    • Medicare
    • Regulation
    • Social Security
    • Spending
    • Tax
    • Trade
    • Values
    • Veterans

  • DonS

    Jimmy @ 24: “Come home big brother! We will welcome you back with open arms! We will kill the fatted calf and have a feast in your honor.”

    Well, if you kill the fatted calf, you will all be in the doghouse with many Democrats. Better to just grill up some vegetables, I would think.

  • DonS

    Jimmy @ 24: “Come home big brother! We will welcome you back with open arms! We will kill the fatted calf and have a feast in your honor.”

    Well, if you kill the fatted calf, you will all be in the doghouse with many Democrats. Better to just grill up some vegetables, I would think.

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 62, absent from the list of topics are “Economy” and “Recession” and “Job Creation.” Perhaps because the candidate can only offer us conservative platitudes, and not an actual plan?

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 62, absent from the list of topics are “Economy” and “Recession” and “Job Creation.” Perhaps because the candidate can only offer us conservative platitudes, and not an actual plan?

  • DonS

    Dr. Veith said: The ones I’ve talked to generally vote Republican, so if there are many such folks who are refusing to vote, that could make a big difference in a close election.

    I don’t think there are many at all who plan on sitting out this election who “generally vote Republican”. People like SKP and Cincinnatus, sure. But they don’t ever, or seldom, vote Republican, to hear them tell it. But I would be very surprised if you find more than a handful of people who voted for McCain in 2008 and, after sitting through 4 years of the Obama administration, are not going to vote for Romney. And I don’t think I have to explain why.

    The data is showing quite the opposite — a lot of people who voted for Obama in 2008 are not going to do so this time, and a lot more who voted for Obama in 2008 are just going to sit this one out. Obama won the 2008 election with a popular vote of 53-46. In this election, Obama is guaranteed to garner a lower total, and Romney is guaranteed to garner a higher one. The only question is whether the change will be enough to put Romney over the top. I think it will.

    Here is one of the most compelling reasons to vote for Romney, and your state’s Republican Senate candidate — the Republicans have promised, should they gain the presidency and both Congressional houses, to repeal Obamacare, which the Democrats rammed through to passage when they held all three centers of power, and despite the fact that the people implored them not to. Give them that opportunity, and hold them to it.

  • DonS

    Dr. Veith said: The ones I’ve talked to generally vote Republican, so if there are many such folks who are refusing to vote, that could make a big difference in a close election.

    I don’t think there are many at all who plan on sitting out this election who “generally vote Republican”. People like SKP and Cincinnatus, sure. But they don’t ever, or seldom, vote Republican, to hear them tell it. But I would be very surprised if you find more than a handful of people who voted for McCain in 2008 and, after sitting through 4 years of the Obama administration, are not going to vote for Romney. And I don’t think I have to explain why.

    The data is showing quite the opposite — a lot of people who voted for Obama in 2008 are not going to do so this time, and a lot more who voted for Obama in 2008 are just going to sit this one out. Obama won the 2008 election with a popular vote of 53-46. In this election, Obama is guaranteed to garner a lower total, and Romney is guaranteed to garner a higher one. The only question is whether the change will be enough to put Romney over the top. I think it will.

    Here is one of the most compelling reasons to vote for Romney, and your state’s Republican Senate candidate — the Republicans have promised, should they gain the presidency and both Congressional houses, to repeal Obamacare, which the Democrats rammed through to passage when they held all three centers of power, and despite the fact that the people implored them not to. Give them that opportunity, and hold them to it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Oh, please, Tom. You’re a smart guy. You of all people should know that the President ultimately cannot stop a recession or create jobs.

    But if you do believe the myth:

    a) You’re wrong. The Romney website has a rather large section dedicated to “Jobs and Economic Growth”: http://www.mittromney.com/jobs

    Subheadings and all!

    b) Obama’s section on Jobs is no larger than Romney’s. And Obama’s platform here boils down to this: “I’m not Romney, and here are some things I’ve done that didn’t actually work.”

    So, really, I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here.

  • Cincinnatus

    Oh, please, Tom. You’re a smart guy. You of all people should know that the President ultimately cannot stop a recession or create jobs.

    But if you do believe the myth:

    a) You’re wrong. The Romney website has a rather large section dedicated to “Jobs and Economic Growth”: http://www.mittromney.com/jobs

    Subheadings and all!

    b) Obama’s section on Jobs is no larger than Romney’s. And Obama’s platform here boils down to this: “I’m not Romney, and here are some things I’ve done that didn’t actually work.”

    So, really, I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here.

  • Susan

    @Tom

    Since you took no time to reply, it’s plain that you have no interest in anything but your own opinion. No research or reading required. ;)

  • Susan

    @Tom

    Since you took no time to reply, it’s plain that you have no interest in anything but your own opinion. No research or reading required. ;)

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I might write in J. Huntsman (kind-of Mormon).
    I’m sure he’s a political tool too, but I liked him as our Utah Governor.

  • Bryan Lindemood

    I might write in J. Huntsman (kind-of Mormon).
    I’m sure he’s a political tool too, but I liked him as our Utah Governor.

  • Carl Vehse

    sg@44: “He was a U.S. citizen, and an enemy, and assassinated by the U.S. military. None of those are debatable. Are they?”

    My earlier comment @41 referred to whether the definition of an enemy as “an American citizen” was “a complete definition of what that particular American citizen was doing.”

  • Carl Vehse

    sg@44: “He was a U.S. citizen, and an enemy, and assassinated by the U.S. military. None of those are debatable. Are they?”

    My earlier comment @41 referred to whether the definition of an enemy as “an American citizen” was “a complete definition of what that particular American citizen was doing.”

  • Cincinnatus

    Carl@69:

    I know I’m about to step into troll-infested waters, but whether one is an American citizen is not contingent upon what one is doing. The government–historically and constitutionally–has no right to kill you just because you’re doing something illegal. You are an American citizen whether you’re building bombs, smoking weed, or vacationing in Cuba.

    This is not a case of a police officer gunning down a citizen in self-defense. The issue here is very clear: President Obama specifically and explicitly ordered a military hit on an American citizen. That, to me, is atrocious.

  • Cincinnatus

    Carl@69:

    I know I’m about to step into troll-infested waters, but whether one is an American citizen is not contingent upon what one is doing. The government–historically and constitutionally–has no right to kill you just because you’re doing something illegal. You are an American citizen whether you’re building bombs, smoking weed, or vacationing in Cuba.

    This is not a case of a police officer gunning down a citizen in self-defense. The issue here is very clear: President Obama specifically and explicitly ordered a military hit on an American citizen. That, to me, is atrocious.

  • Abby

    “I would eliminate the pang of unjustified guilt I always feel when I vote Republican” — key words, “unjustified guilt” — which is no guilt at all.

  • Abby

    “I would eliminate the pang of unjustified guilt I always feel when I vote Republican” — key words, “unjustified guilt” — which is no guilt at all.

  • Anon

    ‘And if so, why not just vote for Obama?’

    OK.

    DONE!

  • Anon

    ‘And if so, why not just vote for Obama?’

    OK.

    DONE!

  • Carl Vehse

    Cincinnatus @70: “The government–historically and constitutionally–has no right to kill you just because you’re doing something illegal.”

    Cincinnatus, you are being nonsensical. The government (including an individual citizen) does have a right to kill an another American citizen who is doing something illegal. Typically the something illegal involved the threat of murder. In Texas the right to use deadly force includes the attempted theft of someone’s car on his property at night.

    The issue I raise in #41 was whether the designated “American citizen” was killed just because he was an American citizen or because of his actions at the time he was killed.

  • Carl Vehse

    Cincinnatus @70: “The government–historically and constitutionally–has no right to kill you just because you’re doing something illegal.”

    Cincinnatus, you are being nonsensical. The government (including an individual citizen) does have a right to kill an another American citizen who is doing something illegal. Typically the something illegal involved the threat of murder. In Texas the right to use deadly force includes the attempted theft of someone’s car on his property at night.

    The issue I raise in #41 was whether the designated “American citizen” was killed just because he was an American citizen or because of his actions at the time he was killed.

  • Cincinnatus

    Carl:

    Obviously, a stupid response. The State has always–and probably rightfully–maintained the prerogative to kill you in self-defense. See my very explicit example of a cop shooting a citizen who pulls a gun on him. And of course he wasn’t assassinated because he was an American citizen. No one even suggested that was the case, and no one would suggest that, because it doesn’t make sense. “Yeah, we ordered an assassination on that guy because he’s German. No other reason. We just don’t like Germans.”

    But since when does the President have the right to order the assassination of an American citizen without due process? Answer: Since never. In fact, since the Ford administration, it has been illegal even to order the assassination of foreign nationals, much less American citizens. And yet here is Obama issuing assassination orders against Americans. It sets a bad legal precedent, in case that wasn’t clear to you, Carl.

  • Cincinnatus

    Carl:

    Obviously, a stupid response. The State has always–and probably rightfully–maintained the prerogative to kill you in self-defense. See my very explicit example of a cop shooting a citizen who pulls a gun on him. And of course he wasn’t assassinated because he was an American citizen. No one even suggested that was the case, and no one would suggest that, because it doesn’t make sense. “Yeah, we ordered an assassination on that guy because he’s German. No other reason. We just don’t like Germans.”

    But since when does the President have the right to order the assassination of an American citizen without due process? Answer: Since never. In fact, since the Ford administration, it has been illegal even to order the assassination of foreign nationals, much less American citizens. And yet here is Obama issuing assassination orders against Americans. It sets a bad legal precedent, in case that wasn’t clear to you, Carl.

  • Grace

    My husband and I are not voting for either Romney or Obama, for all the reasons I’ve stated on a number of threads. We are Republicans. We will write in a vote for another man, who was running and then dropped out.

    We as Believers in Christ are accountable for our actions before God ALMIGHTY. Voting evil over evil, isn’t an option.

  • Grace

    My husband and I are not voting for either Romney or Obama, for all the reasons I’ve stated on a number of threads. We are Republicans. We will write in a vote for another man, who was running and then dropped out.

    We as Believers in Christ are accountable for our actions before God ALMIGHTY. Voting evil over evil, isn’t an option.

  • Random Lutheran

    #60 — here’s a suggestion, and only a suggestion: the debt is a shared hallucination, and should simply be written off the books (money is also such, of course, at its root, but we have to have some form of exchange beyond goats and bags of wheat; the debt is also immoral, as it is effectively theft from even those yet unborn). At the same time, new US currency should be issued, with all US currency (however it is held, in actual notes or electronically) not turned in for the new currency (at home and especially abroad) within a month then valued at $0.00. And there would be a $1 billion dollar limit per nation-state/corporation on monies held outside the US on exchanges for the new currency (i.e., no more leverage against the US via huge stocks of US cash; it would also slice open the fiscal veins of the drug cartels). Bleed out the bankers, too, by allowing them to go out of business when they screw up, rather than being given as much rope as they like, then having us cut them out of it when they get tangled up in it. The world economy would suffer for a time, but, given that a) no one can mess with us militarily at present, and b) if there would be a move to cut the US out of the world economy in retaliation, there would be no functioning world economy, there is no better time to do this. Short-term trouble for many, long-term benefits for all. Plus, fire Bud Selig. But that should be a part of any sound plan at any level.

  • Random Lutheran

    #60 — here’s a suggestion, and only a suggestion: the debt is a shared hallucination, and should simply be written off the books (money is also such, of course, at its root, but we have to have some form of exchange beyond goats and bags of wheat; the debt is also immoral, as it is effectively theft from even those yet unborn). At the same time, new US currency should be issued, with all US currency (however it is held, in actual notes or electronically) not turned in for the new currency (at home and especially abroad) within a month then valued at $0.00. And there would be a $1 billion dollar limit per nation-state/corporation on monies held outside the US on exchanges for the new currency (i.e., no more leverage against the US via huge stocks of US cash; it would also slice open the fiscal veins of the drug cartels). Bleed out the bankers, too, by allowing them to go out of business when they screw up, rather than being given as much rope as they like, then having us cut them out of it when they get tangled up in it. The world economy would suffer for a time, but, given that a) no one can mess with us militarily at present, and b) if there would be a move to cut the US out of the world economy in retaliation, there would be no functioning world economy, there is no better time to do this. Short-term trouble for many, long-term benefits for all. Plus, fire Bud Selig. But that should be a part of any sound plan at any level.

  • Jon

    Cin@66

    Oh, please, Tom. You’re a smart guy. You of all people should know that the President ultimately cannot stop a recession or create jobs.

    Well, will somebody please tell the current occupier of the WH to kindly stop trying then, because he is not helping!

    $16 T in debt, a massive fed takeover of health care, and foreign policy that is dismissively received are his record.

  • Jon

    Cin@66

    Oh, please, Tom. You’re a smart guy. You of all people should know that the President ultimately cannot stop a recession or create jobs.

    Well, will somebody please tell the current occupier of the WH to kindly stop trying then, because he is not helping!

    $16 T in debt, a massive fed takeover of health care, and foreign policy that is dismissively received are his record.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Hmmmmm…. I’m loathe to vote for one candidate simply because I do not like the other.

    That being said, while most of my vote will probably go Libertarian….

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Hmmmmm…. I’m loathe to vote for one candidate simply because I do not like the other.

    That being said, while most of my vote will probably go Libertarian….

  • Jon

    Random@76

    Great idea. So we wipe out the tally sheets, and then what? We go right back to using the same booky and keep running up more gambling debt.

    Seems that someone should have an intervention with us and at least make us get on a twelve-step program after we wipe out the tally sheets.

  • Jon

    Random@76

    Great idea. So we wipe out the tally sheets, and then what? We go right back to using the same booky and keep running up more gambling debt.

    Seems that someone should have an intervention with us and at least make us get on a twelve-step program after we wipe out the tally sheets.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I really don’t get the idea of “sitting out” as some sort of rejection of one of the two major parties’ candidates. Rather than do nothing, why not find the candidate you think is truly the best (even if you have to write him in, assuming that’s allowed in your state), and vote for him?

    Okay, the truly cynical have already said why: because they don’t see the value in legitimizing a system that’s been gamed. Whatever. If your vote is worthless, then not voting is equally worthless. It’s not like not doing it carries any more import. If you’re going to take that avenue, then at least acknowledge what the system you’re rejecting really runs on: money. Notably, yours. The system doesn’t care if you vote or not, as long as you pay taxes. You wanna take a stance that actually strikes at the system’s legitimacy? Don’t pay your taxes. But then, you know, you might face jail time. So it goes with stances that are actually meaningful. If it doesn’t hurt you, it’s likely no one will care.

    Anyhow, pick the candidate you think is best. Don’t lose a lot of sleep over it. He won’t be perfect, and neither will your reasoning be. For that matter, neither will the eventual winner be. That’s why Jesus came. To forgive the sins of lousy, selfish leaders and the lousy, selfish citizens who elect them. Don’t forget that part.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    I really don’t get the idea of “sitting out” as some sort of rejection of one of the two major parties’ candidates. Rather than do nothing, why not find the candidate you think is truly the best (even if you have to write him in, assuming that’s allowed in your state), and vote for him?

    Okay, the truly cynical have already said why: because they don’t see the value in legitimizing a system that’s been gamed. Whatever. If your vote is worthless, then not voting is equally worthless. It’s not like not doing it carries any more import. If you’re going to take that avenue, then at least acknowledge what the system you’re rejecting really runs on: money. Notably, yours. The system doesn’t care if you vote or not, as long as you pay taxes. You wanna take a stance that actually strikes at the system’s legitimacy? Don’t pay your taxes. But then, you know, you might face jail time. So it goes with stances that are actually meaningful. If it doesn’t hurt you, it’s likely no one will care.

    Anyhow, pick the candidate you think is best. Don’t lose a lot of sleep over it. He won’t be perfect, and neither will your reasoning be. For that matter, neither will the eventual winner be. That’s why Jesus came. To forgive the sins of lousy, selfish leaders and the lousy, selfish citizens who elect them. Don’t forget that part.

  • SKPeterson

    Todd @ 80 – My reasoning is always perfect. Joel Osteen told me so.

    I don’t think sitting out is a rejection of one of the candidates, but rather a rejection of both. I may vote (absentee if I do, probably) and if I do, I’ll likely vote 3rd party or do a write-in like I usually do. Actually, I usually make sure to vote in the local elections, and don’t sweat it much one way or the other on the big, “important” elections. I’m just saying there’s probably lots of better things one can do with their time on November 6th than worrying about making it to the polls.

    I’d like to not pay my taxes and have all sorts of hidden overseas bank accounts quietly ensconced in secretive Swiss, Cayman and Mauritian banks, but that darn Carl will be sending the drones after me if I do.

  • SKPeterson

    Todd @ 80 – My reasoning is always perfect. Joel Osteen told me so.

    I don’t think sitting out is a rejection of one of the candidates, but rather a rejection of both. I may vote (absentee if I do, probably) and if I do, I’ll likely vote 3rd party or do a write-in like I usually do. Actually, I usually make sure to vote in the local elections, and don’t sweat it much one way or the other on the big, “important” elections. I’m just saying there’s probably lots of better things one can do with their time on November 6th than worrying about making it to the polls.

    I’d like to not pay my taxes and have all sorts of hidden overseas bank accounts quietly ensconced in secretive Swiss, Cayman and Mauritian banks, but that darn Carl will be sending the drones after me if I do.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SK (@81), oh yeah, I keep forgetting how the rest of the country votes. In Oregon, we all vote by mail, so there’s not a lot of time wasted standing in line or whatever on Election Day.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SK (@81), oh yeah, I keep forgetting how the rest of the country votes. In Oregon, we all vote by mail, so there’s not a lot of time wasted standing in line or whatever on Election Day.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    My earlier comment @41 referred to whether the definition of an enemy as “an American citizen” was “a complete definition of what that particular American citizen was doing.”

    Huh?

    I don’t get it.

    Do you think he was not an enemy? Seriously?

    We know he was a citizen, and that he was assassinated.

    Some may think that is great. Others won’t. But that doesn’t change the fact the U.S. military under President Obama’s administration carries out assassinations of the enemies of the U.S. even if they are U.S. citizens. That is undeniable. It has already happened. It is his policy.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    My earlier comment @41 referred to whether the definition of an enemy as “an American citizen” was “a complete definition of what that particular American citizen was doing.”

    Huh?

    I don’t get it.

    Do you think he was not an enemy? Seriously?

    We know he was a citizen, and that he was assassinated.

    Some may think that is great. Others won’t. But that doesn’t change the fact the U.S. military under President Obama’s administration carries out assassinations of the enemies of the U.S. even if they are U.S. citizens. That is undeniable. It has already happened. It is his policy.

  • Grace

    Absentee ballot’s are very popular here. One doesn’t have to park, stand in line. Voting can be done much easier and efficiently at home, and then send it in.

  • Grace

    Absentee ballot’s are very popular here. One doesn’t have to park, stand in line. Voting can be done much easier and efficiently at home, and then send it in.

  • Dan Kempin

    tODD, #80,

    Great comment.

    In the end it is better to do your best and get dirty and maybe be wrong than to stand aloof and try to be above it.

    Good advice. Very lutheran. I will try to keep it in mind.

  • Dan Kempin

    tODD, #80,

    Great comment.

    In the end it is better to do your best and get dirty and maybe be wrong than to stand aloof and try to be above it.

    Good advice. Very lutheran. I will try to keep it in mind.

  • Jim_777

    I sort of feel that there is little point in casting a vote in this election. This country has been lurching ever left-ward since at least the 1930′s and will continue to do so whether Obama or Romney is President. Maybe Obama will get us to economic ruin faster, but who knows? The federal gov’t just grows ever larger and ever more intrusive and our individual liberties continue to be consumed. No politician can stop that now. Do any of them even want to? For me, I intend hold me wife and daughter close, pray without ceasing, and ride out the storm. My family’s true citizenship is in Heaven with our Triune God anyway.

  • Jim_777

    I sort of feel that there is little point in casting a vote in this election. This country has been lurching ever left-ward since at least the 1930′s and will continue to do so whether Obama or Romney is President. Maybe Obama will get us to economic ruin faster, but who knows? The federal gov’t just grows ever larger and ever more intrusive and our individual liberties continue to be consumed. No politician can stop that now. Do any of them even want to? For me, I intend hold me wife and daughter close, pray without ceasing, and ride out the storm. My family’s true citizenship is in Heaven with our Triune God anyway.

  • Grace

    Jim_777 “For me, I intend hold me wife and daughter close, pray without ceasing, and ride out the storm. My family’s true citizenship is in Heaven with our Triune God anyway.

    Beautifully stated. This world is not our home.

  • Grace

    Jim_777 “For me, I intend hold me wife and daughter close, pray without ceasing, and ride out the storm. My family’s true citizenship is in Heaven with our Triune God anyway.

    Beautifully stated. This world is not our home.

  • Helen K

    Dr. Veith, Please put off that enticement of the fatted calf till after 6 November. (:

    We will vote GOP even if the candidate may not be to our liking. A change is needed in the administration, not only the figure-head. What concerns me is the forecast of the electoral votes.

    Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Joseph Smith will rise from the dead or be resurrected should Mr. Romney win the presidency.

    We have it easy here in Arizona. Mail in ballots.

    .

  • Helen K

    Dr. Veith, Please put off that enticement of the fatted calf till after 6 November. (:

    We will vote GOP even if the candidate may not be to our liking. A change is needed in the administration, not only the figure-head. What concerns me is the forecast of the electoral votes.

    Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Joseph Smith will rise from the dead or be resurrected should Mr. Romney win the presidency.

    We have it easy here in Arizona. Mail in ballots.

    .

  • Helen K

    Meant to add +100 tODD @ 80. A voice of reason and sobriety.

  • Helen K

    Meant to add +100 tODD @ 80. A voice of reason and sobriety.

  • cattail

    I live in a state that has voted overwhelmingly Democratic for the past 20 years. It therefore doesn’t make a dime’s worth of difference for which presidential candidate I vote; Obama will win the electoral votes for this state by a large margin. I therefore will either vote for a third party candidate or write in my dog (“the only candidate who stands squarely on all four feet!”). It won’t be the first time I’ve done this!

    I will, of course, be far more careful in my selection of state and local candidates. My area amazingly elected a Republican state representative last election who has done an excellent job and deserves re-election.

  • cattail

    I live in a state that has voted overwhelmingly Democratic for the past 20 years. It therefore doesn’t make a dime’s worth of difference for which presidential candidate I vote; Obama will win the electoral votes for this state by a large margin. I therefore will either vote for a third party candidate or write in my dog (“the only candidate who stands squarely on all four feet!”). It won’t be the first time I’ve done this!

    I will, of course, be far more careful in my selection of state and local candidates. My area amazingly elected a Republican state representative last election who has done an excellent job and deserves re-election.

  • Tom Hering

    A reporter on BBC World News tonight said the following about the United States: “This is a nation that has become ungovernable; its politics, poisonous.” If this outside view of us is correct, it won’t matter if we vote or not – much less who’s elected to national office. No one we pick from either party will be able to fix anything.

  • Tom Hering

    A reporter on BBC World News tonight said the following about the United States: “This is a nation that has become ungovernable; its politics, poisonous.” If this outside view of us is correct, it won’t matter if we vote or not – much less who’s elected to national office. No one we pick from either party will be able to fix anything.

  • NavyChaps

    Reason to vote in this election: One of the two candidates voted 3 times against the Infant Born Alive Protection Act in his home state. That candidate’s lack of respect for life is abominable. For that alone, he is not deserving of a vote for anything. Never. Ever.

  • NavyChaps

    Reason to vote in this election: One of the two candidates voted 3 times against the Infant Born Alive Protection Act in his home state. That candidate’s lack of respect for life is abominable. For that alone, he is not deserving of a vote for anything. Never. Ever.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cattail said (@90):

    I live in a state that has voted overwhelmingly Democratic for the past 20 years.

    Unless you’ve moved, that’s not true. In 2004, Oregon was only 51% in favor of Kerry, vs. 47% for Bush. Sure, I still think Obama will win this year, but I expect the numbers to be close like that, not anywhere close to the blowout that was 2008.

    Also, in 2000, as in much of the country, Oregon was 46.96% for Gore and 46.52% for Bush (as well as 5.04% for Nader).

    So, you know, Oregon isn’t nearly as much of a foregone conclusion as many assume. We had a Republican senator from 1997 to 2009.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cattail said (@90):

    I live in a state that has voted overwhelmingly Democratic for the past 20 years.

    Unless you’ve moved, that’s not true. In 2004, Oregon was only 51% in favor of Kerry, vs. 47% for Bush. Sure, I still think Obama will win this year, but I expect the numbers to be close like that, not anywhere close to the blowout that was 2008.

    Also, in 2000, as in much of the country, Oregon was 46.96% for Gore and 46.52% for Bush (as well as 5.04% for Nader).

    So, you know, Oregon isn’t nearly as much of a foregone conclusion as many assume. We had a Republican senator from 1997 to 2009.

  • Tom Hering

    NavyChaps @ 92, you’ve only given a reason not to vote for someone. What’s the reason to vote for his opponent? What can his opponent do to change the abortion situation? Realistically?

  • Tom Hering

    NavyChaps @ 92, you’ve only given a reason not to vote for someone. What’s the reason to vote for his opponent? What can his opponent do to change the abortion situation? Realistically?

  • NavyChaps

    Tom, true. However in this case, my point was that there is an excellent reason to vote in this election — even if you agree (which I most certainly do not) that it would be otherwise pointless to do so. As I said, because of his lack of character I would support voting for anyone to ensure that this candidate lives the remainder of his life out of public office. You may argue that the other candidate also lacks character; however voting to allow children who survive a botched abortion to be ignored and die is far worse than anything else I can imagine. And sadly, I’ve seen some pretty bad things around the world. This is worse. It is evil.

    Besides in this case, his opponent will have a significant opportunity to have an impact on the abortion debate since it is almost certain that the next president will be able to nominate 1-2 Supreme Court Justices. To ignore this reality is foolishness.

    And so to answer Dr. Veith’s question, yes, I believe failing to vote is a vote for the President because silence is consent.

  • NavyChaps

    Tom, true. However in this case, my point was that there is an excellent reason to vote in this election — even if you agree (which I most certainly do not) that it would be otherwise pointless to do so. As I said, because of his lack of character I would support voting for anyone to ensure that this candidate lives the remainder of his life out of public office. You may argue that the other candidate also lacks character; however voting to allow children who survive a botched abortion to be ignored and die is far worse than anything else I can imagine. And sadly, I’ve seen some pretty bad things around the world. This is worse. It is evil.

    Besides in this case, his opponent will have a significant opportunity to have an impact on the abortion debate since it is almost certain that the next president will be able to nominate 1-2 Supreme Court Justices. To ignore this reality is foolishness.

    And so to answer Dr. Veith’s question, yes, I believe failing to vote is a vote for the President because silence is consent.

  • Grace

    POLITICO

    Mitt Romney’s abortion pledge

    By ALEXANDER BURNS | 6/18/11 2:12 PM EDT

    “Mitt Romney takes to the (electronic) pages of National Review to outline his position on abortion, after tempting a backlash by refusing to sign

    The Susan B. Anthony List’s anti-abortion pledge:

    “As much as I share the goals of the Susan B. Anthony List, its well-meaning pledge is overly broad and would have unintended consequences. That is why I could not sign it. It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America. That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it.

    The pledge also unduly burdens a president’s ability to appoint the most qualified individuals to a broad array of key positions in the federal government. I would expect every one of my appointees to carry out my policies on abortion and every other issue, irrespective of their personal views.”

    If I have the opportunity to serve as our nation’s next president, I commit to doing everything in my power to cultivate, promote, and support a culture of life in America.”

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57269.html

    Romney flip flops, then flips right back doing a double flip on ABORTION! Which is it, is anyones guess.

  • Grace

    POLITICO

    Mitt Romney’s abortion pledge

    By ALEXANDER BURNS | 6/18/11 2:12 PM EDT

    “Mitt Romney takes to the (electronic) pages of National Review to outline his position on abortion, after tempting a backlash by refusing to sign

    The Susan B. Anthony List’s anti-abortion pledge:

    “As much as I share the goals of the Susan B. Anthony List, its well-meaning pledge is overly broad and would have unintended consequences. That is why I could not sign it. It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America. That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it.

    The pledge also unduly burdens a president’s ability to appoint the most qualified individuals to a broad array of key positions in the federal government. I would expect every one of my appointees to carry out my policies on abortion and every other issue, irrespective of their personal views.”

    If I have the opportunity to serve as our nation’s next president, I commit to doing everything in my power to cultivate, promote, and support a culture of life in America.”

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57269.html

    Romney flip flops, then flips right back doing a double flip on ABORTION! Which is it, is anyones guess.

  • Grace

    This is the part that gets tricky, and side-steps the real issue, with an excuse:

    It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America. That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it.”

  • Grace

    This is the part that gets tricky, and side-steps the real issue, with an excuse:

    It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America. That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it.”

  • Booklover

    I will be voting against the man who defied our first amendment rights with his HHS mandate. His unprecedented attack on religious liberty and the sanctity of life deserves no second chance.

  • Booklover

    I will be voting against the man who defied our first amendment rights with his HHS mandate. His unprecedented attack on religious liberty and the sanctity of life deserves no second chance.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #91 I agree. We’ve got a strong tendency to force one-size fits all solutions to divisive issues at the federal level. Either liberal or conservative states are mistreated depending on the ruling party.

    If we can’t adopt a decentralized federalism we may need to split into smaller nations just to get past political paralysis that prevents any type of consistent rational response (either from the left or the right) to our dangerous financial and welfare state issues.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #91 I agree. We’ve got a strong tendency to force one-size fits all solutions to divisive issues at the federal level. Either liberal or conservative states are mistreated depending on the ruling party.

    If we can’t adopt a decentralized federalism we may need to split into smaller nations just to get past political paralysis that prevents any type of consistent rational response (either from the left or the right) to our dangerous financial and welfare state issues.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    We have got the most stupid electorate ever.

    Have people not learned a thing from the Ross Perot debacle?

    We deserve to have Obama back to wreck this country for 4 more years.

    We really do.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    We have got the most stupid electorate ever.

    Have people not learned a thing from the Ross Perot debacle?

    We deserve to have Obama back to wreck this country for 4 more years.

    We really do.

  • Grace

    Steve

    I don’t believe anyone who believes he will one day be a god, can solve anything.

    I do not want to stand before the LORD one day, knowing that I wilfully voted for a man who believed he could take HIS place.

    Who else wanted to take God’s place?

  • Grace

    Steve

    I don’t believe anyone who believes he will one day be a god, can solve anything.

    I do not want to stand before the LORD one day, knowing that I wilfully voted for a man who believed he could take HIS place.

    Who else wanted to take God’s place?

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    Grace,

    We are voting for someone to lead and run the country. He’s quite competent at running businesses and has experience as an executive, unlike the guy who is currently ruining our country.

    We are not voting for a theology.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    Grace,

    We are voting for someone to lead and run the country. He’s quite competent at running businesses and has experience as an executive, unlike the guy who is currently ruining our country.

    We are not voting for a theology.

  • larry

    All the whining, hand wringing, moaning, weeping, and wailing is much to do about nothing. Vote how you must your free to do so…sin boldly. I’m no supporter of MR the second of two liberals to choose from, but fear not those who desire that outcome it will be MR by nine points.

  • larry

    All the whining, hand wringing, moaning, weeping, and wailing is much to do about nothing. Vote how you must your free to do so…sin boldly. I’m no supporter of MR the second of two liberals to choose from, but fear not those who desire that outcome it will be MR by nine points.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    Doing what is right, out of love for the neighbor, isn’t “nothing”.

    Do we want more freedom for the neighbor…or less?

    Do what you will, but make no mistake about it, the bigger the govt. the smaller the citizen.

    I’m not talking about a gospel issue here…but a law issue.

    TWO KINGDOMS.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    Doing what is right, out of love for the neighbor, isn’t “nothing”.

    Do we want more freedom for the neighbor…or less?

    Do what you will, but make no mistake about it, the bigger the govt. the smaller the citizen.

    I’m not talking about a gospel issue here…but a law issue.

    TWO KINGDOMS.

  • NavyChaps

    Tom,
    But since you asked for a reason TO vote for the other guy:

    Reason 1: The President forced the very ironically named “Affordable Care Act” down our throats and then dictated that religious organizations must violate their consciences or go out of business. While that is certainly a choice, it doesn’t seem to be one that is appropriate given the First Amendment. Gov. Romney has promised to sign the repeal.

    Reason 2:
    Net change in jobs: Loss of 1.3 Million
    Workers and dependents awarded disability: Increase of 5.7 Million
    Individuals added to food stamps: Increase of 15.1 Million

    There are only two candidates who have the possibility of being elected in November. Gov. Romney’s plan seems far more likely to turn this around rather than continue on the same path.

    Reason 3: “Peace through Strength” or “Leading from behind.” I’d much rather have the first because it is far safer than the second.

    There are plenty of other reasons, but these are more than sufficient in my mind.

    Not that I’m likely to convince you, but you did ask. ;-)

  • NavyChaps

    Tom,
    But since you asked for a reason TO vote for the other guy:

    Reason 1: The President forced the very ironically named “Affordable Care Act” down our throats and then dictated that religious organizations must violate their consciences or go out of business. While that is certainly a choice, it doesn’t seem to be one that is appropriate given the First Amendment. Gov. Romney has promised to sign the repeal.

    Reason 2:
    Net change in jobs: Loss of 1.3 Million
    Workers and dependents awarded disability: Increase of 5.7 Million
    Individuals added to food stamps: Increase of 15.1 Million

    There are only two candidates who have the possibility of being elected in November. Gov. Romney’s plan seems far more likely to turn this around rather than continue on the same path.

    Reason 3: “Peace through Strength” or “Leading from behind.” I’d much rather have the first because it is far safer than the second.

    There are plenty of other reasons, but these are more than sufficient in my mind.

    Not that I’m likely to convince you, but you did ask. ;-)

  • Grace

    So this all comes down to what a good businessman one is?

    It’s all about money? It’s all about comfort? It has nothing to do with our allegiance to God? How many have stood firm against evil, and suffered for it?

    I cannot pledge support for evil, there is no choice, NONE!

  • Grace

    So this all comes down to what a good businessman one is?

    It’s all about money? It’s all about comfort? It has nothing to do with our allegiance to God? How many have stood firm against evil, and suffered for it?

    I cannot pledge support for evil, there is no choice, NONE!

  • NavyChaps

    Grace,
    Steve’s explanation @104 is correct. God uses the godly and the ungodly alike through their vocations to care for His world. For us, voting is our vocational responsibility – part of loving our neighbor.

    Obviously there will be substantial disagreement as to which candidate will offer better leadership that will improve the lives of our neighbors. But the execution of their station/office/vocation is a matter of the earthly realm. It is a Law issue, not a Gospel issue.

    I agree with you that a person’s faith should be something we consider when looking at candidates. I also agree with you that in this case, that issue does not offer particularly good options.

    However, I would respectfully disagree that there is no choice. In my opinion one candidate will have greater respect for your faith than the other – with less government interference.

  • NavyChaps

    Grace,
    Steve’s explanation @104 is correct. God uses the godly and the ungodly alike through their vocations to care for His world. For us, voting is our vocational responsibility – part of loving our neighbor.

    Obviously there will be substantial disagreement as to which candidate will offer better leadership that will improve the lives of our neighbors. But the execution of their station/office/vocation is a matter of the earthly realm. It is a Law issue, not a Gospel issue.

    I agree with you that a person’s faith should be something we consider when looking at candidates. I also agree with you that in this case, that issue does not offer particularly good options.

    However, I would respectfully disagree that there is no choice. In my opinion one candidate will have greater respect for your faith than the other – with less government interference.

  • fws

    navy @ 107

    true.

    but not all religious are the same.
    It would be a real shame, based on reasonable grounds , to have a practicing traditional muslim or a mormon as president.

    Why?

    They are just both so very focussed on destroying Christianity.
    This is a focus that is not the case for buddhism for example, or the Bahai faith, or sikhs or hindus or many other religions for that matter.

    Mormons and muslims have their rather virulent hatred of christianity in common.
    In addition they teach all their young men that it is a virtue to lie if the lie is justified by a greater goal or good. Lying is integral to their belief system. All missionaries are routinely taught to do it.

  • fws

    navy @ 107

    true.

    but not all religious are the same.
    It would be a real shame, based on reasonable grounds , to have a practicing traditional muslim or a mormon as president.

    Why?

    They are just both so very focussed on destroying Christianity.
    This is a focus that is not the case for buddhism for example, or the Bahai faith, or sikhs or hindus or many other religions for that matter.

    Mormons and muslims have their rather virulent hatred of christianity in common.
    In addition they teach all their young men that it is a virtue to lie if the lie is justified by a greater goal or good. Lying is integral to their belief system. All missionaries are routinely taught to do it.

  • Wayne Almlie

    I will vote. For God to have placed us in a country that gives us a voice through our vote and then not to vote, I would consider that to be a sin. For me personally, it would be a sin to vote for Obama. I’m yet undecided on Romney. I’m both socially and fiscally conservative, yet If Obama wins, then that was God’s will. Time and history will determine whither that would be a blessing or a curse. I personally would lean toward the latter.

    Personally I’m ready for a reboot. There are some that say that if Obama is re-elected there will be a government default and collaps. That probably wouldn’t be all bad. Maybe we could start over and learn from our mistakes. I know also the danger always is for a strong man to take over and set up a dictatorship, but a little hardship and persecution is good for the church. The church usually thrives in those kinds of conditions. So that might not be all bad either. Either way God rules.

  • Wayne Almlie

    I will vote. For God to have placed us in a country that gives us a voice through our vote and then not to vote, I would consider that to be a sin. For me personally, it would be a sin to vote for Obama. I’m yet undecided on Romney. I’m both socially and fiscally conservative, yet If Obama wins, then that was God’s will. Time and history will determine whither that would be a blessing or a curse. I personally would lean toward the latter.

    Personally I’m ready for a reboot. There are some that say that if Obama is re-elected there will be a government default and collaps. That probably wouldn’t be all bad. Maybe we could start over and learn from our mistakes. I know also the danger always is for a strong man to take over and set up a dictatorship, but a little hardship and persecution is good for the church. The church usually thrives in those kinds of conditions. So that might not be all bad either. Either way God rules.

  • fws

    navy @ 107

    are you cwaaaazy? you think Romney will have more respect for the christian faith, that he considers to be an “abomination”? really?
    i lived for a year with 8 return mormon missionaries and went to brigham young u for a year…. I can assure you… not alot of respect for non mormon beliefs.

    they will be very friendly up to the point where they realize you will not convert….

    and there are far more than a handful of exceptions to this rule who are devout mormons of a more liberal variety. I am not saying ALL mormons are that way. And even the most rigorous mormons like Romney are wonderful men and women. But… the mormon churh does indeed wish to destroy the christian faith and are most aggresively working to that end. And Romney and his family circle is about as high up as you get in the mormon church institution.

  • fws

    navy @ 107

    are you cwaaaazy? you think Romney will have more respect for the christian faith, that he considers to be an “abomination”? really?
    i lived for a year with 8 return mormon missionaries and went to brigham young u for a year…. I can assure you… not alot of respect for non mormon beliefs.

    they will be very friendly up to the point where they realize you will not convert….

    and there are far more than a handful of exceptions to this rule who are devout mormons of a more liberal variety. I am not saying ALL mormons are that way. And even the most rigorous mormons like Romney are wonderful men and women. But… the mormon churh does indeed wish to destroy the christian faith and are most aggresively working to that end. And Romney and his family circle is about as high up as you get in the mormon church institution.

  • fws

    wayne @ 109

    +1

  • fws

    wayne @ 109

    +1

  • Grace

    NavyChaps @ 107

    YOU WROTE: ⚬⚬ “Steve’s explanation @104 is correct. God uses the godly and the ungodly alike through their vocations to care for His world. For us, voting is our vocational responsibility – part of loving our neighbor.” ⚬⚬

    It’s not my vocation to choose one evil over another evil. Nor does the Word of God say such a thing.

    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
    Ephesians 6

    YOU WROTE: ⚬⚬ “However, I would respectfully disagree that there is no choice. In my opinion one candidate will have greater respect for your faith than the other – with less government interference.” ⚬⚬

    No, that isn’t true. One belives that Michael the Archangel is our god. Wrong, there is no respect for God Almighty, how can any individual who believes this respect my faith, when he denies who God is? God was never an angel, HE created everything including the angels.

    “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth.”

    A Sermon by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852.
    Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, page 50

  • Grace

    NavyChaps @ 107

    YOU WROTE: ⚬⚬ “Steve’s explanation @104 is correct. God uses the godly and the ungodly alike through their vocations to care for His world. For us, voting is our vocational responsibility – part of loving our neighbor.” ⚬⚬

    It’s not my vocation to choose one evil over another evil. Nor does the Word of God say such a thing.

    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
    Ephesians 6

    YOU WROTE: ⚬⚬ “However, I would respectfully disagree that there is no choice. In my opinion one candidate will have greater respect for your faith than the other – with less government interference.” ⚬⚬

    No, that isn’t true. One belives that Michael the Archangel is our god. Wrong, there is no respect for God Almighty, how can any individual who believes this respect my faith, when he denies who God is? God was never an angel, HE created everything including the angels.

    “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth.”

    A Sermon by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852.
    Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, page 50

  • Jim_777

    I would not vote for a Mormon. I understand the two kingdoms deal and I understand a vote for Romney is not an application to join the LDS. However, the LDS is an anti-Christian cult. I don’t want to hand all the power of the American Presidency to the Quorum of the Twelve and the “Prophet” in Salt Lake. I might very well be wrong in my attitude, I admit. That’s extremely possible. But I have prayed about this and discussed it with my pastor and my wife and, in the end, my conscience simply forbids me to play any part in increasing the power of a cult that is in direct opposition to my God and faith. I’m definitely with Grace on this one.

  • Jim_777

    I would not vote for a Mormon. I understand the two kingdoms deal and I understand a vote for Romney is not an application to join the LDS. However, the LDS is an anti-Christian cult. I don’t want to hand all the power of the American Presidency to the Quorum of the Twelve and the “Prophet” in Salt Lake. I might very well be wrong in my attitude, I admit. That’s extremely possible. But I have prayed about this and discussed it with my pastor and my wife and, in the end, my conscience simply forbids me to play any part in increasing the power of a cult that is in direct opposition to my God and faith. I’m definitely with Grace on this one.

  • Abby

    I’m wondering if he wouldn’t have picked a Mormon as a VP instead of Paul Ryan with his strong Christian beliefs — if we really have to worry about this.

  • Abby

    I’m wondering if he wouldn’t have picked a Mormon as a VP instead of Paul Ryan with his strong Christian beliefs — if we really have to worry about this.

  • Abby

    (And, would Ryan have accepted?)

  • Abby

    (And, would Ryan have accepted?)

  • Jim_777

    As a practical matter, I don’t imagine that Romney will attempt some sort of Mormon coup or anything. Moreover, he seems like a decent person, a good husband and father. I certainly don’t have any personal animus toward the man. In fact, I feel sorry for him. The Mormon church is a pagan, works-righteousness cult that requires its adherents to earn their way into the bizarre Mormon heaven. Mormons never have the certainty of salvation that we in the confessional Lutheran church are so blessed to have and that God intended. Many Mormon people are pressured and harassed if they try to leave the cult. For those in the cult, the pressure to achieve material success and put forth the proper image can be taxing and cruel. I simply can’t cast a vote for a man who is a member of a group like this. I just pray for all people who are trapped in Satanic lies, Mormons, Muslims, and others.

  • Jim_777

    As a practical matter, I don’t imagine that Romney will attempt some sort of Mormon coup or anything. Moreover, he seems like a decent person, a good husband and father. I certainly don’t have any personal animus toward the man. In fact, I feel sorry for him. The Mormon church is a pagan, works-righteousness cult that requires its adherents to earn their way into the bizarre Mormon heaven. Mormons never have the certainty of salvation that we in the confessional Lutheran church are so blessed to have and that God intended. Many Mormon people are pressured and harassed if they try to leave the cult. For those in the cult, the pressure to achieve material success and put forth the proper image can be taxing and cruel. I simply can’t cast a vote for a man who is a member of a group like this. I just pray for all people who are trapped in Satanic lies, Mormons, Muslims, and others.

  • Jim_777

    I don’t know what Ryan’s views are toward Mormonism. He may be a uninformed person (about this at least) who buys the idea that Mormons are Christians. He may really want to be VP and doesn’t care who he shares the ticket with. I don’t know.

  • Jim_777

    I don’t know what Ryan’s views are toward Mormonism. He may be a uninformed person (about this at least) who buys the idea that Mormons are Christians. He may really want to be VP and doesn’t care who he shares the ticket with. I don’t know.

  • Abby

    I don’t see Ryan as uninformed. Even if he might have been he is around enough people that someone would have enlightened him. I actually see much more honesty here, that Romney seeks to govern the country from a secular/business/executive position (and as someone with very good experience) not a religious one. However, in a couple of specifics he has expressed alignment with the Christian viewpoint — which would really be for the common good of all society.

    Yes, we do have “Grace” — assurance of forgiveness of sins from Christ Jesus. But I think there is also a “common grace” which people besides Christians also possess. “God gives rain to the just and the unjust.”

    I do not share the fear that is expressed here about Romney, if he were elected President. I think he would do a very good job. And he only has, initially, a 4 year window of opportunity — just like anyone else.

  • Abby

    I don’t see Ryan as uninformed. Even if he might have been he is around enough people that someone would have enlightened him. I actually see much more honesty here, that Romney seeks to govern the country from a secular/business/executive position (and as someone with very good experience) not a religious one. However, in a couple of specifics he has expressed alignment with the Christian viewpoint — which would really be for the common good of all society.

    Yes, we do have “Grace” — assurance of forgiveness of sins from Christ Jesus. But I think there is also a “common grace” which people besides Christians also possess. “God gives rain to the just and the unjust.”

    I do not share the fear that is expressed here about Romney, if he were elected President. I think he would do a very good job. And he only has, initially, a 4 year window of opportunity — just like anyone else.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve asked (@104):

    Do we want more freedom for the neighbor…or less?

    Ask a simplistic question, get a simplistic answer. I hope you’re thinking about this at a deeper level than you’re sharing with us here. Because what does that even mean?

    Freedom to do what? There are some things I want my neighbors to be more free to do, and some things I would prefer they have very little freedom to do. Yes, even if I am trying not to think selfishly and only act out of love for them.

    I agree that our vote, like everything else, should be done out of love for our neighbor. But it is hardly a foregone conclusion that a smaller government is the most loving thing for one’s neighbor. Or, for that matter, a larger one.

    Anyhow, I also enjoyed this (@102):

    [Romney]’s quite competent at running businesses and has experience as an executive, unlike the guy who is currently ruining our country.

    Look, I fully get that you don’t agree with Obama’s policies, but it’s obvious that he has the most experience of any candidate for the office. Because, you know, he’s an incumbent. Your argument might have made more sense in 2008, had Romney been running then. But come on. “Experience” really isn’t the issue anymore.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Steve asked (@104):

    Do we want more freedom for the neighbor…or less?

    Ask a simplistic question, get a simplistic answer. I hope you’re thinking about this at a deeper level than you’re sharing with us here. Because what does that even mean?

    Freedom to do what? There are some things I want my neighbors to be more free to do, and some things I would prefer they have very little freedom to do. Yes, even if I am trying not to think selfishly and only act out of love for them.

    I agree that our vote, like everything else, should be done out of love for our neighbor. But it is hardly a foregone conclusion that a smaller government is the most loving thing for one’s neighbor. Or, for that matter, a larger one.

    Anyhow, I also enjoyed this (@102):

    [Romney]’s quite competent at running businesses and has experience as an executive, unlike the guy who is currently ruining our country.

    Look, I fully get that you don’t agree with Obama’s policies, but it’s obvious that he has the most experience of any candidate for the office. Because, you know, he’s an incumbent. Your argument might have made more sense in 2008, had Romney been running then. But come on. “Experience” really isn’t the issue anymore.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Wayne said (@109):

    For God to have placed us in a country that gives us a voice through our vote and then not to vote, I would consider that to be a sin.

    Look, if you’re personally convicted about this, you go ahead and vote. But please don’t burden people’s consciences with rules you just made up. Because I’m pretty certain the Bible says more about unnecessary conscience-burdening being a sin than it does about not voting being a sin.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Wayne said (@109):

    For God to have placed us in a country that gives us a voice through our vote and then not to vote, I would consider that to be a sin.

    Look, if you’re personally convicted about this, you go ahead and vote. But please don’t burden people’s consciences with rules you just made up. Because I’m pretty certain the Bible says more about unnecessary conscience-burdening being a sin than it does about not voting being a sin.

  • Daniel Gorman

    1. Obama’s abortion policy would probably kill more babies than Romney’s.
    2. Romney’s unjust war policy would probably kill more innocent people than Obama’s.
    3. Obama’s evil reign would probably end in four years whereas Romney’s could continue for eight.
    4. Obama’s open border policy would probably destroy the republic much sooner than Romney’s.
    5. We should probably vote for Romney.

  • Daniel Gorman

    1. Obama’s abortion policy would probably kill more babies than Romney’s.
    2. Romney’s unjust war policy would probably kill more innocent people than Obama’s.
    3. Obama’s evil reign would probably end in four years whereas Romney’s could continue for eight.
    4. Obama’s open border policy would probably destroy the republic much sooner than Romney’s.
    5. We should probably vote for Romney.

  • Wayne Almlie

    Last night I referred to not voting being a sin. I didn’t mean to burden any peoples consciences. There is no specific verse that says to not vote is a sin. But there is a pattern of civic responsibility that seems to be laid out. In the Old Covenant Israel, the temple was the government, and the men as representatives of there families were required to be involved. They were required to travel to the Temple three times a year to be involved in the festivals. In there communities they were to be involved and to work for justice. And justice was not a feeding program for the poor. Justice was the making sure the law breakers were punished. They were also to be involved in the programs that helped the widows and the orphans.

    And in the New Testament it continues to stress civic duty. Obedience to the government except when obedience violates the laws of God.

    Now I guess if you have studied the scriptures, and have prayed about it, and have gotten Godly council from your pastors and other christian brothers and sistors and have decided that you can’t enter that voting booth and in faith caste a ballot for any of the candidates, then for you that is the right thing to do. For whatever is not done in faith is sin. After all, your not voting might be the vessel that God uses in this election to do His will. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if God at this time want to curse our nation or bless it. Only time will tell.

  • Wayne Almlie

    Last night I referred to not voting being a sin. I didn’t mean to burden any peoples consciences. There is no specific verse that says to not vote is a sin. But there is a pattern of civic responsibility that seems to be laid out. In the Old Covenant Israel, the temple was the government, and the men as representatives of there families were required to be involved. They were required to travel to the Temple three times a year to be involved in the festivals. In there communities they were to be involved and to work for justice. And justice was not a feeding program for the poor. Justice was the making sure the law breakers were punished. They were also to be involved in the programs that helped the widows and the orphans.

    And in the New Testament it continues to stress civic duty. Obedience to the government except when obedience violates the laws of God.

    Now I guess if you have studied the scriptures, and have prayed about it, and have gotten Godly council from your pastors and other christian brothers and sistors and have decided that you can’t enter that voting booth and in faith caste a ballot for any of the candidates, then for you that is the right thing to do. For whatever is not done in faith is sin. After all, your not voting might be the vessel that God uses in this election to do His will. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if God at this time want to curse our nation or bless it. Only time will tell.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Wayne @ 122,

    So tell me then, what happens when none of the candidates to choose from reflect godly examples of leaders?

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Wayne @ 122,

    So tell me then, what happens when none of the candidates to choose from reflect godly examples of leaders?

  • Tom Hering

    In there communities they were to be involved and to work for justice. (@ 122)

    Some of them were no doubt very good at being just.

    “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.”

    And justice was not a feeding program for the poor. (ibid)

    Yeah. But redistribution or progressive taxation would have been much easier demands to meet.

    Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

  • Tom Hering

    In there communities they were to be involved and to work for justice. (@ 122)

    Some of them were no doubt very good at being just.

    “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.”

    And justice was not a feeding program for the poor. (ibid)

    Yeah. But redistribution or progressive taxation would have been much easier demands to meet.

    Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

  • Michael B.

    “I am talking about following my conscience”

    I heard this more than once from liberals in 2000 about why they should vote for Nader. Bush would go on to start a war in which over 100,000 people died, but the important thing is that they have a clear conscience.

  • Michael B.

    “I am talking about following my conscience”

    I heard this more than once from liberals in 2000 about why they should vote for Nader. Bush would go on to start a war in which over 100,000 people died, but the important thing is that they have a clear conscience.

  • Stone the Crows

    Presidents are ordinary human beings thrust into an extraordinary set of circumstances, they’re neither gods nor demi-gods. It is an executive position not a theocratic one, which is to say the biggest problem with the choice of candidates is not their religious affiliation, their character, or lack thereof, but how the Presidency has been elevated to a secular high priest with plenary power. Is the problem that the government is out of control, or that we’ve had our hand out and we’ve been looking to the government to solve our problems for so long that we’ve entitled our way to a point of no return? Can any one man or woman, whoever you might name walk us back from the precipice we’re supposedly on? Elections are like looking through job applications and CV’s, you don’t get to hire the person you want, you have to hire from the people who’ve applied. We as citizens need to vote for the candidate who best fits the requirements of the Executive branch of our governnent. Pray for wisdom in your decision, and when the elections are over pray for those who are elected that they too would serve with wisdom diligence and virtue. It isn’t a perfect process, but then again we’re not a perfect people, we do the best we can with what we’ve got.

  • Stone the Crows

    Presidents are ordinary human beings thrust into an extraordinary set of circumstances, they’re neither gods nor demi-gods. It is an executive position not a theocratic one, which is to say the biggest problem with the choice of candidates is not their religious affiliation, their character, or lack thereof, but how the Presidency has been elevated to a secular high priest with plenary power. Is the problem that the government is out of control, or that we’ve had our hand out and we’ve been looking to the government to solve our problems for so long that we’ve entitled our way to a point of no return? Can any one man or woman, whoever you might name walk us back from the precipice we’re supposedly on? Elections are like looking through job applications and CV’s, you don’t get to hire the person you want, you have to hire from the people who’ve applied. We as citizens need to vote for the candidate who best fits the requirements of the Executive branch of our governnent. Pray for wisdom in your decision, and when the elections are over pray for those who are elected that they too would serve with wisdom diligence and virtue. It isn’t a perfect process, but then again we’re not a perfect people, we do the best we can with what we’ve got.

  • Abby

    “It isn’t a perfect process, but then again we’re not a perfect people, we do the best we can with what we’ve got.” Amen. All we have is hope, after all.

  • Abby

    “It isn’t a perfect process, but then again we’re not a perfect people, we do the best we can with what we’ve got.” Amen. All we have is hope, after all.

  • Abby

    “Besides in this case, his opponent will have a significant opportunity to have an impact on the abortion debate since it is almost certain that the next president will be able to nominate 1-2 Supreme Court Justices. To ignore this reality is foolishness.”

    I’m surprised this element is so silent this election cycle.

  • Abby

    “Besides in this case, his opponent will have a significant opportunity to have an impact on the abortion debate since it is almost certain that the next president will be able to nominate 1-2 Supreme Court Justices. To ignore this reality is foolishness.”

    I’m surprised this element is so silent this election cycle.

  • Grace

    Wayne @122 “After all, your not voting might be the vessel that God uses in this election to do His will. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if God at this time want to curse our nation or bless it. Only time will tell.”

    Interesting comment Wayne if God at this time want to curse our nation or bless it. Only time will tell.

    Our nation is deep in sin, children don’t honor their parents, have no respect for themselves, parents entertain themselves not taking proper care of their children, slay the unborn, defile themselves with mankind, whether it be same sex or opposite sex, drug use at an all time high. Worship of gods that are false, cults. The list is long!

    God punished the Israelites for their wickedness, what makes the Americans think HE won’t punish this country?

    We sing “God bless America” all the while making sinful laws to accommodate the selfish desires of man, which are against God’s Word.

    This country has turned against God, and worships comfort and earthly vanities, believing that they are entitled to everything, whether they work for it or not. So NEEDY, that they would vote for men who are a cultist, or one who believes strongly in socialism, and killing the unborn. Many more reasons, but the ones stated are enough!

    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thessalonians 5

    That would apply to this election.

  • Grace

    Wayne @122 “After all, your not voting might be the vessel that God uses in this election to do His will. I guess we’ll have to wait and see if God at this time want to curse our nation or bless it. Only time will tell.”

    Interesting comment Wayne if God at this time want to curse our nation or bless it. Only time will tell.

    Our nation is deep in sin, children don’t honor their parents, have no respect for themselves, parents entertain themselves not taking proper care of their children, slay the unborn, defile themselves with mankind, whether it be same sex or opposite sex, drug use at an all time high. Worship of gods that are false, cults. The list is long!

    God punished the Israelites for their wickedness, what makes the Americans think HE won’t punish this country?

    We sing “God bless America” all the while making sinful laws to accommodate the selfish desires of man, which are against God’s Word.

    This country has turned against God, and worships comfort and earthly vanities, believing that they are entitled to everything, whether they work for it or not. So NEEDY, that they would vote for men who are a cultist, or one who believes strongly in socialism, and killing the unborn. Many more reasons, but the ones stated are enough!

    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thessalonians 5

    That would apply to this election.

  • Grace

    fws @110 “But… the mormon churh does indeed wish to destroy the christian faith and are most aggresively working to that end. And Romney and his family circle is about as high up as you get in the mormon church institution.

    This is true. But very few want to believe that this group DIRECTS those who are members.

  • Grace

    fws @110 “But… the mormon churh does indeed wish to destroy the christian faith and are most aggresively working to that end. And Romney and his family circle is about as high up as you get in the mormon church institution.

    This is true. But very few want to believe that this group DIRECTS those who are members.

  • Tom Hering

    Conservative presidents have been appointing conservative justices for a few decades now, and Roe v. Wade still stands. You can argue that these justices didn’t turn out to be true conservatives, but there you go then. This “compelling” reason to vote for Romney isn’t supported by the lesson of history.

  • Tom Hering

    Conservative presidents have been appointing conservative justices for a few decades now, and Roe v. Wade still stands. You can argue that these justices didn’t turn out to be true conservatives, but there you go then. This “compelling” reason to vote for Romney isn’t supported by the lesson of history.

  • Abby

    In order for Roe v Wade being overturned — a case would need to be brought to the Supreme Court. When and if that will happen, the Judges who preside there will be extremely important. It is not just a matter that if the Judges are there — it will magically happen! They can do nothing until it is brought before them. I really feel sorry for the woman who initially brought this case and “won.” Because she is a Christian now, and magnanimously regrets that Roe v Wade ever happened. But such is the matter of being a forgiven sinner — the consequences still stand.

  • Abby

    In order for Roe v Wade being overturned — a case would need to be brought to the Supreme Court. When and if that will happen, the Judges who preside there will be extremely important. It is not just a matter that if the Judges are there — it will magically happen! They can do nothing until it is brought before them. I really feel sorry for the woman who initially brought this case and “won.” Because she is a Christian now, and magnanimously regrets that Roe v Wade ever happened. But such is the matter of being a forgiven sinner — the consequences still stand.

  • Tom Hering

    Abby, cases have already been brought before the court where Roe v. Wade could have been overturned.

  • Tom Hering

    Abby, cases have already been brought before the court where Roe v. Wade could have been overturned.

  • Abby

    Well, not enough Judges with good reason present! With the law there is a lot of circular reasoning going on.

  • Abby

    Well, not enough Judges with good reason present! With the law there is a lot of circular reasoning going on.

  • Abby

    Definition of circular reasoning:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

  • Abby

    Definition of circular reasoning:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

  • Grace

    Tom @133 – you’re right.

    Our hope is in Christ, only HE can change the hardened hearts of un-Believers. It’s in HIS hands.

  • Grace

    Tom @133 – you’re right.

    Our hope is in Christ, only HE can change the hardened hearts of un-Believers. It’s in HIS hands.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@133:

    Um, no. I’m gonna have to call BS on that claim. The only major opportunity the Court had to overturn Roe came in 1992 with Planned Parenthood v. Casey. The liberal majority opposed abortion restrictions in that case. Abby is right to the extent that overturning Roe would require the right case to be brought forward.

    On the other hand, overturning Roe wouldn’t accomplish much. That is to say, it wouldn’t suddenly make abortion illegal; it would only permit states to reinstitute some forms of abortion restrictions if they wanted.

    Plus, the only justices likely to retire between now and 2016 are liberal, so it’s not like Obama could create a pro-Roe majority on the Court if reelected.

    In short, abortion isn’t really an issue of note in this election.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@133:

    Um, no. I’m gonna have to call BS on that claim. The only major opportunity the Court had to overturn Roe came in 1992 with Planned Parenthood v. Casey. The liberal majority opposed abortion restrictions in that case. Abby is right to the extent that overturning Roe would require the right case to be brought forward.

    On the other hand, overturning Roe wouldn’t accomplish much. That is to say, it wouldn’t suddenly make abortion illegal; it would only permit states to reinstitute some forms of abortion restrictions if they wanted.

    Plus, the only justices likely to retire between now and 2016 are liberal, so it’s not like Obama could create a pro-Roe majority on the Court if reelected.

    In short, abortion isn’t really an issue of note in this election.

  • Cincinnatus

    I should add: Even Casey wasn’t an opportunity to overturn Roe, really. Just a change to endorse more restrictions on abortion than currently allowed.

  • Cincinnatus

    I should add: Even Casey wasn’t an opportunity to overturn Roe, really. Just a change to endorse more restrictions on abortion than currently allowed.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @138

    “In short, abortion isn’t really an issue of note in this election.”

    That may be your view, but it isn’t true. Ole Romney, wouldn’t have flip flopped if it hadn’t been an issue. Of course he would not sign the pledge using a lame excuse.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @138

    “In short, abortion isn’t really an issue of note in this election.”

    That may be your view, but it isn’t true. Ole Romney, wouldn’t have flip flopped if it hadn’t been an issue. Of course he would not sign the pledge using a lame excuse.

  • Abby

    Romney is focussing on the economy. The issue of abortion needs to be a supposed non-issue right now because of the phony, so-called “war on women” the other side is propagating. Let them try to steamroll that — the majority in the country isn’t buying it. ESpecially, right-thinking women.

  • Abby

    Romney is focussing on the economy. The issue of abortion needs to be a supposed non-issue right now because of the phony, so-called “war on women” the other side is propagating. Let them try to steamroll that — the majority in the country isn’t buying it. ESpecially, right-thinking women.

  • larry

    Todd @ 119, bingo. The gospeleers like Steve like to 1 use the gospel to free their vote up, then pretend they alone by their decision alone àre loving their neigbor and simultaneously accuse by implication that one daring to vote otherwise would not be. But like its sister sophistry, a vote for someone other than the slop offered is a vote for BO, it assumes its false dilemma is true (due to short sightedness) in order to sustain its contiñued false dilemma. One could táke their argument and use it in kind against them and say a vote for MR is a wasted vote since it is only a matter of degree and rate as to which big gov. pàrty offering you vote for. They are six one way half a dozen the other and the frog is being simmered only more slowly under one verses the othèr. In reality whàt has become the Rep. Party is just the more gentlemanly dem. Party saying, “Brother dems you gotta do it slowly to avoid rank and file retribution, have more patience have we not been growing the size and scope of the gov. Under both parties pres. for decades now…do it sloooowly “. Has not so called cons. like C. Rove Provence themselves antithetical to many cons. things like abortion!

    Franks point way up is apropos..

  • larry

    Todd @ 119, bingo. The gospeleers like Steve like to 1 use the gospel to free their vote up, then pretend they alone by their decision alone àre loving their neigbor and simultaneously accuse by implication that one daring to vote otherwise would not be. But like its sister sophistry, a vote for someone other than the slop offered is a vote for BO, it assumes its false dilemma is true (due to short sightedness) in order to sustain its contiñued false dilemma. One could táke their argument and use it in kind against them and say a vote for MR is a wasted vote since it is only a matter of degree and rate as to which big gov. pàrty offering you vote for. They are six one way half a dozen the other and the frog is being simmered only more slowly under one verses the othèr. In reality whàt has become the Rep. Party is just the more gentlemanly dem. Party saying, “Brother dems you gotta do it slowly to avoid rank and file retribution, have more patience have we not been growing the size and scope of the gov. Under both parties pres. for decades now…do it sloooowly “. Has not so called cons. like C. Rove Provence themselves antithetical to many cons. things like abortion!

    Franks point way up is apropos..

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    I’m in a recently deeply Republican state (Alabama). I feel no compunction to vote for Romney as he’ll easily win the state. That frees me up to vote my conscience.

    Unfortunately the third party candidates this year are very low quality compared to 1992/1996/2000/2004/2008.

    I don’t understand why any reasonable person would consider voting for Obama except as a vote against Romney. President Obama is unlikely to matter much during another term given his first one.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    I’m in a recently deeply Republican state (Alabama). I feel no compunction to vote for Romney as he’ll easily win the state. That frees me up to vote my conscience.

    Unfortunately the third party candidates this year are very low quality compared to 1992/1996/2000/2004/2008.

    I don’t understand why any reasonable person would consider voting for Obama except as a vote against Romney. President Obama is unlikely to matter much during another term given his first one.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    On the other hand, overturning Roe wouldn’t accomplish much. That is to say, it wouldn’t suddenly make abortion illegal; it would only permit states to reinstitute some forms of abortion restrictions if they wanted.”

    I am not so sure about that. Consider this election. Abortion is a national issue because of Roe v. Wade. Now if the federal gov’t didn’t have an explicit role, and it were left up to the states, then national candidates would not need to have any position on it. Think about that for a minute. For those voters that prioritize a candidate’s position on abortion, there could be some political movement. Personally I think it might favor the Democrats because some pro life voters aren’t really so keen on some Republican policies. Also, abortion is a huge distraction. If we weren’t talking about it, we would have to focus on the remaining issues. There is unemployment. There are all the wars and foreign entanglements. There is the scary debt and deficit. etc.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    On the other hand, overturning Roe wouldn’t accomplish much. That is to say, it wouldn’t suddenly make abortion illegal; it would only permit states to reinstitute some forms of abortion restrictions if they wanted.”

    I am not so sure about that. Consider this election. Abortion is a national issue because of Roe v. Wade. Now if the federal gov’t didn’t have an explicit role, and it were left up to the states, then national candidates would not need to have any position on it. Think about that for a minute. For those voters that prioritize a candidate’s position on abortion, there could be some political movement. Personally I think it might favor the Democrats because some pro life voters aren’t really so keen on some Republican policies. Also, abortion is a huge distraction. If we weren’t talking about it, we would have to focus on the remaining issues. There is unemployment. There are all the wars and foreign entanglements. There is the scary debt and deficit. etc.

  • fws

    sg @ 143

    bingo.
    there is zero political incentive for republicans to overturn roe vs wade.

  • fws

    sg @ 143

    bingo.
    there is zero political incentive for republicans to overturn roe vs wade.

  • JunkerGeorg

    fws @ post #4,

    “Vote third party and vote a straight republican ticket for everything else….”
    —–

    That’s what I’m inclined to do as well at this point. Don’t know your reasons, but personally I can’t let stand what happened at the Republican Convention in terms of how the Ron Paul delegates were mistreated. IMO, the party needs reform—doesn’t have to be fullblown libertarian, but at least more Goldwater-ish would be nice (away from Big government, Fed Reserve, Nation building/Regime Changing, etc.) And yet I don’t want to see anymore of Obama’s agenda to go through in a 2nd term. Hence, your suggestion is the best option I can see at this point.

  • JunkerGeorg

    fws @ post #4,

    “Vote third party and vote a straight republican ticket for everything else….”
    —–

    That’s what I’m inclined to do as well at this point. Don’t know your reasons, but personally I can’t let stand what happened at the Republican Convention in terms of how the Ron Paul delegates were mistreated. IMO, the party needs reform—doesn’t have to be fullblown libertarian, but at least more Goldwater-ish would be nice (away from Big government, Fed Reserve, Nation building/Regime Changing, etc.) And yet I don’t want to see anymore of Obama’s agenda to go through in a 2nd term. Hence, your suggestion is the best option I can see at this point.

  • helen

    SK @6
    So completely uninspiring; a choice between vanilla pudding or tapioca.

    I wish it were so benign! I’m afraid it’s more like, “Choose your poison” to conservative Christians.

  • helen

    SK @6
    So completely uninspiring; a choice between vanilla pudding or tapioca.

    I wish it were so benign! I’m afraid it’s more like, “Choose your poison” to conservative Christians.

  • Susan

    The thing I find hard to accept about voting 3rd party is that it takes away from the Republican vote and ends up being a vote for Obama. Voting for a Republican congress doesn’t stop Obama’s agenda of bypassing congress. He is using executive fiat (eg: not defending DOMA, enacting his DREAM act, and so forth) and using his czars to bypass congress in departments like the EPA.

    The EPA is creating and enforcing draconian rules for the coal industry and has over 200 coal fired power plants slated to be closed. The number of coal mines being forced to shut and laying off people is high is harming many people. As Obama promised prior to his election, his energy policies would necessarily cause energy prices to skyrocket. Gasoline prices have doubled and the escalating energy prices are affecting all of us through the rising cost of living. Manufacturers have to pass these costs on to the consumer – hence the rising prices at the supermarket and basic necessities. Obama will not support the Keystone pipeline and other measures that would help the situation and get us on a path of energy independence.

    We also have the problem of ObamaCare. It is causing escalating costs in health insurance premiums and employers costs (eg: high unemployment, stagnant wages, etc.). Not to mention the freedom of exercise of religion problems via mandated abortificants. If Obama is re-elected, ObamaCare will not be repealed and we will continue to find out what is in the noxious bill. Sebelius has over 1000 fill-in-the blank rules yet to make up and her decision to overrule freedom of conscience in favor of free contraceptives is only one example of onerous regulations ahead. ObamaCare is being used to regulate away many of our freedoms and they have admitted that ObamaCare is designed to lead to a single payer system and their goal is to mandate government paid abortion plan (women’s reproductive health).

    The EPA and ObamaCare are only the tip of the iceberg in vehicles in which Obama plans to use in order to implement to change in American society. We have yet to address his disastrous foreign policies, education (eg: forbade vouchers for the kids in DC in favor of unions), promised higher taxes that have already hit the middle class, and so forth. Please do vote 3rd party if you want to see Obama and see his progressive ideologies prevail.

  • Susan

    The thing I find hard to accept about voting 3rd party is that it takes away from the Republican vote and ends up being a vote for Obama. Voting for a Republican congress doesn’t stop Obama’s agenda of bypassing congress. He is using executive fiat (eg: not defending DOMA, enacting his DREAM act, and so forth) and using his czars to bypass congress in departments like the EPA.

    The EPA is creating and enforcing draconian rules for the coal industry and has over 200 coal fired power plants slated to be closed. The number of coal mines being forced to shut and laying off people is high is harming many people. As Obama promised prior to his election, his energy policies would necessarily cause energy prices to skyrocket. Gasoline prices have doubled and the escalating energy prices are affecting all of us through the rising cost of living. Manufacturers have to pass these costs on to the consumer – hence the rising prices at the supermarket and basic necessities. Obama will not support the Keystone pipeline and other measures that would help the situation and get us on a path of energy independence.

    We also have the problem of ObamaCare. It is causing escalating costs in health insurance premiums and employers costs (eg: high unemployment, stagnant wages, etc.). Not to mention the freedom of exercise of religion problems via mandated abortificants. If Obama is re-elected, ObamaCare will not be repealed and we will continue to find out what is in the noxious bill. Sebelius has over 1000 fill-in-the blank rules yet to make up and her decision to overrule freedom of conscience in favor of free contraceptives is only one example of onerous regulations ahead. ObamaCare is being used to regulate away many of our freedoms and they have admitted that ObamaCare is designed to lead to a single payer system and their goal is to mandate government paid abortion plan (women’s reproductive health).

    The EPA and ObamaCare are only the tip of the iceberg in vehicles in which Obama plans to use in order to implement to change in American society. We have yet to address his disastrous foreign policies, education (eg: forbade vouchers for the kids in DC in favor of unions), promised higher taxes that have already hit the middle class, and so forth. Please do vote 3rd party if you want to see Obama and see his progressive ideologies prevail.

  • larry

    Spot on JG @ 145, Frank @ 7, & Helen @ 147.

    The false dilemma is the hyperventilating and not seeing past the next four years. Which is how in principle we got BO in the first. That’s how real candidates and third party voted always get squished…the same tired old cant see past your nose panic. There’s ALWAYS a party line induced emergency…R. Emmanuel is not the only one to use this trick…the RNC is using it as we speak, its precisely why we have both MR and BO. If the country is that close to falling apart, if we are so far gone that MR is the solution…the Constitution is reaaly that close to being null and void that MR is the only answer standing, then a vote for MR is truly wasting a vote, in fact ANY vote would be a waste…and we are just pretending at this point.

  • larry

    Spot on JG @ 145, Frank @ 7, & Helen @ 147.

    The false dilemma is the hyperventilating and not seeing past the next four years. Which is how in principle we got BO in the first. That’s how real candidates and third party voted always get squished…the same tired old cant see past your nose panic. There’s ALWAYS a party line induced emergency…R. Emmanuel is not the only one to use this trick…the RNC is using it as we speak, its precisely why we have both MR and BO. If the country is that close to falling apart, if we are so far gone that MR is the solution…the Constitution is reaaly that close to being null and void that MR is the only answer standing, then a vote for MR is truly wasting a vote, in fact ANY vote would be a waste…and we are just pretending at this point.

  • Susan

    No need to accuse of hyperventilating. Here’s the evidence from one academic study:

    The Vote-Stealing and Turnout Effects of Third-Party Candidates in U.S. Presidential Elections, 1968-1996 http://polmeth.wustl.edu/media/Paper/lacy00.pdf

    Excerpt:

    Estimates from the models are used to simulate the outcomes of the elections in the absence of the third-party candidate and under full turnout. In three of the four elections, the third-party candidates stole more votes from the challengers than from the incumbents. Only in 1996 did the third-party candidate take more votes away from the incumbent than the challenger … All four third-party candidates increase their vote share under full turnout, and Democratic
    candidates gain vote share under full turnout in all elections except 1980.

  • Susan

    No need to accuse of hyperventilating. Here’s the evidence from one academic study:

    The Vote-Stealing and Turnout Effects of Third-Party Candidates in U.S. Presidential Elections, 1968-1996 http://polmeth.wustl.edu/media/Paper/lacy00.pdf

    Excerpt:

    Estimates from the models are used to simulate the outcomes of the elections in the absence of the third-party candidate and under full turnout. In three of the four elections, the third-party candidates stole more votes from the challengers than from the incumbents. Only in 1996 did the third-party candidate take more votes away from the incumbent than the challenger … All four third-party candidates increase their vote share under full turnout, and Democratic
    candidates gain vote share under full turnout in all elections except 1980.

  • Tom Hering

    But Larry, EVERY election is the most important election EVER, because the end of America is ALWAYS at hand! Are you saying you don’t believe what both sides tell us?

  • Tom Hering

    But Larry, EVERY election is the most important election EVER, because the end of America is ALWAYS at hand! Are you saying you don’t believe what both sides tell us?

  • Tom Hering

    Vote stealing? What a ridiculous top-down view of voting. From where I stand, at the bottom of things, my vote is freely given.

  • Tom Hering

    Vote stealing? What a ridiculous top-down view of voting. From where I stand, at the bottom of things, my vote is freely given.

  • larry

    Its the ignorance of just how gov. actually intrudes that continues the intrusion and by the Rep. at that along with the dems. Homeschoolers saw a version of this years ago with Rep. and vouchers. Once the gov. Asserts a positive recognition of a thing it now has the ability by authority to govern that right or thing, redefine it, eliminate it either out right or by redefinition, and absolute control of the thing. The constitution speaks in the limiting language of what the gov. cant do, it it does not establish immediate authority, it only defines its office to protect. People flying to the pseudo cons. Party to protect them are doing the very thing they fear from the left. Its ironic because when I talk with friends of left leaning politics its the same they just flee to the dens…both sides blind to what the two parties are doing to them both…growing and encroaching the gov. Rank and file libs don’t want this anymore than do rank and file cons. One must be able to step back and see the principle operateing and not just the names given.

  • larry

    Its the ignorance of just how gov. actually intrudes that continues the intrusion and by the Rep. at that along with the dems. Homeschoolers saw a version of this years ago with Rep. and vouchers. Once the gov. Asserts a positive recognition of a thing it now has the ability by authority to govern that right or thing, redefine it, eliminate it either out right or by redefinition, and absolute control of the thing. The constitution speaks in the limiting language of what the gov. cant do, it it does not establish immediate authority, it only defines its office to protect. People flying to the pseudo cons. Party to protect them are doing the very thing they fear from the left. Its ironic because when I talk with friends of left leaning politics its the same they just flee to the dens…both sides blind to what the two parties are doing to them both…growing and encroaching the gov. Rank and file libs don’t want this anymore than do rank and file cons. One must be able to step back and see the principle operateing and not just the names given.

  • Susan

    It’s not rocket science to understand that both political parties are guilty of expanding government and misguided policies. It’s also not rocket science to understand that the Democrat party is being overtaken by progressivism and currently have an agenda to remake American society to suit progressive goals (eg: gay marriage, free contraceptives and abortions, destructive green policies, and so forth). The future of the Republican party does seem to promise more hope, in the sense that the TEA party and those sympathetic to them (their desire to reduce/limit the size/power of government and keep it truer to the constitution and traditional values) are impacting that party and it is changing. To try to stand above both parties while condemning them both doesn’t help the situation. There is a pretty clear choice and the differences won’t end with the November elections.

  • Susan

    It’s not rocket science to understand that both political parties are guilty of expanding government and misguided policies. It’s also not rocket science to understand that the Democrat party is being overtaken by progressivism and currently have an agenda to remake American society to suit progressive goals (eg: gay marriage, free contraceptives and abortions, destructive green policies, and so forth). The future of the Republican party does seem to promise more hope, in the sense that the TEA party and those sympathetic to them (their desire to reduce/limit the size/power of government and keep it truer to the constitution and traditional values) are impacting that party and it is changing. To try to stand above both parties while condemning them both doesn’t help the situation. There is a pretty clear choice and the differences won’t end with the November elections.

  • Abby

    @147,149.153 Go, Susan!
    “To try to stand above both parties while condemning them both doesn’t help the situation. There is a pretty clear choice and the differences won’t end with the November elections.”

    “ANY vote would be a waste…and we are just pretending at this point.” — So what is there to DO? I only have one vote. I intend to use it. With much prayer, and hopefully, with my brain attached.

  • Abby

    @147,149.153 Go, Susan!
    “To try to stand above both parties while condemning them both doesn’t help the situation. There is a pretty clear choice and the differences won’t end with the November elections.”

    “ANY vote would be a waste…and we are just pretending at this point.” — So what is there to DO? I only have one vote. I intend to use it. With much prayer, and hopefully, with my brain attached.

  • Abby

    These are my questions: Would our debt be at $16 trillion + if Obama would never have been president?

    Why have the Democrats refused to pass a budget for over 3 years?

    Name me some Democrat governors who have balanced their state budgets in any recent history. Name me some Republican ones.

  • Abby

    These are my questions: Would our debt be at $16 trillion + if Obama would never have been president?

    Why have the Democrats refused to pass a budget for over 3 years?

    Name me some Democrat governors who have balanced their state budgets in any recent history. Name me some Republican ones.

  • Susan

    @ Abby

    California is pretty much the poster child of progressivism in action.

  • Susan

    @ Abby

    California is pretty much the poster child of progressivism in action.

  • Susan

    Perhaps it would be good to offer a link to Russell Kirk’s essay on 10 principles of conservatism. Below is offered his introduction and 1st principle:

    http://www.kirkcenter.org/index.php/detail/ten-conservative-principles

    Perhaps it would be well, most of the time, to use this word “conservative” as an adjective chiefly. For there exists no Model Conservative, and conservatism is the negation of ideology: it is a state of mind, a type of character, a way of looking at the civil social order.

    The attitude we call conservatism is sustained by a body of sentiments, rather than by a system of ideological dogmata. It is almost true that a conservative may be defined as a person who thinks himself such. The conservative movement or body of opinion can accommodate a considerable diversity of views on a good many subjects, there being no Test Act or Thirty-Nine Articles of the conservative creed.

    In essence, the conservative person is simply one who finds the permanent things more pleasing than Chaos and Old Night. (Yet conservatives know, with Burke, that healthy “change is the means of our preservation.”) A people’s historic continuity of experience, says the conservative, offers a guide to policy far better than the abstract designs of coffee-house philosophers. But of course there is more to the conservative persuasion than this general attitude.

    It is not possible to draw up a neat catalogue of conservatives’ convictions; nevertheless, I offer you, summarily, ten general principles; it seems safe to say that most conservatives would subscribe to most of these maxims.

    First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order. That order is made for man, and man is made for it: human nature is a constant, and moral truths are permanent.

    This word order signifies harmony. There are two aspects or types of order: the inner order of the soul, and the outer order of the commonwealth. Twenty-five centuries ago, Plato taught this doctrine, but even the educated nowadays find it difficult to understand. The problem of order has been a principal concern of conservatives ever since conservative became a term of politics.

    Our twentieth-century world has experienced the hideous consequences of the collapse of belief in a moral order. Like the atrocities and disasters of Greece in the fifth century before Christ, the ruin of great nations in our century shows us the pit into which fall societies that mistake clever self-interest, or ingenious social controls, for pleasing alternatives to an oldfangled moral order.

    It has been said by liberal intellectuals that the conservative believes all social questions, at heart, to be questions of private morality. Properly understood, this statement is quite true. A society in which men and women are governed by belief in an enduring moral order, by a strong sense of right and wrong, by personal convictions about justice and honor, will be a good society—whatever political machinery it may utilize; while a society in which men and women are morally adrift, ignorant of norms, and intent chiefly upon gratification of appetites, will be a bad society—no matter how many people vote and no matter how liberal its formal constitution may be.

  • Susan

    Perhaps it would be good to offer a link to Russell Kirk’s essay on 10 principles of conservatism. Below is offered his introduction and 1st principle:

    http://www.kirkcenter.org/index.php/detail/ten-conservative-principles

    Perhaps it would be well, most of the time, to use this word “conservative” as an adjective chiefly. For there exists no Model Conservative, and conservatism is the negation of ideology: it is a state of mind, a type of character, a way of looking at the civil social order.

    The attitude we call conservatism is sustained by a body of sentiments, rather than by a system of ideological dogmata. It is almost true that a conservative may be defined as a person who thinks himself such. The conservative movement or body of opinion can accommodate a considerable diversity of views on a good many subjects, there being no Test Act or Thirty-Nine Articles of the conservative creed.

    In essence, the conservative person is simply one who finds the permanent things more pleasing than Chaos and Old Night. (Yet conservatives know, with Burke, that healthy “change is the means of our preservation.”) A people’s historic continuity of experience, says the conservative, offers a guide to policy far better than the abstract designs of coffee-house philosophers. But of course there is more to the conservative persuasion than this general attitude.

    It is not possible to draw up a neat catalogue of conservatives’ convictions; nevertheless, I offer you, summarily, ten general principles; it seems safe to say that most conservatives would subscribe to most of these maxims.

    First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order. That order is made for man, and man is made for it: human nature is a constant, and moral truths are permanent.

    This word order signifies harmony. There are two aspects or types of order: the inner order of the soul, and the outer order of the commonwealth. Twenty-five centuries ago, Plato taught this doctrine, but even the educated nowadays find it difficult to understand. The problem of order has been a principal concern of conservatives ever since conservative became a term of politics.

    Our twentieth-century world has experienced the hideous consequences of the collapse of belief in a moral order. Like the atrocities and disasters of Greece in the fifth century before Christ, the ruin of great nations in our century shows us the pit into which fall societies that mistake clever self-interest, or ingenious social controls, for pleasing alternatives to an oldfangled moral order.

    It has been said by liberal intellectuals that the conservative believes all social questions, at heart, to be questions of private morality. Properly understood, this statement is quite true. A society in which men and women are governed by belief in an enduring moral order, by a strong sense of right and wrong, by personal convictions about justice and honor, will be a good society—whatever political machinery it may utilize; while a society in which men and women are morally adrift, ignorant of norms, and intent chiefly upon gratification of appetites, will be a bad society—no matter how many people vote and no matter how liberal its formal constitution may be.

  • fws

    susan

    this may , or may not, morally , square with the Biblical and Lutheran definition of morality.

    In Aristotelian morality the goal is Virtue. Virtue is the exercise of the self-virtues. We christians call that mortification of the flesh. It is ALL about self sacrifice and self control.

    For a Lutheran this is not really morality. What essential thing, that is the Will of God, is missing from this kind of morality?

  • fws

    susan

    this may , or may not, morally , square with the Biblical and Lutheran definition of morality.

    In Aristotelian morality the goal is Virtue. Virtue is the exercise of the self-virtues. We christians call that mortification of the flesh. It is ALL about self sacrifice and self control.

    For a Lutheran this is not really morality. What essential thing, that is the Will of God, is missing from this kind of morality?

  • Susan

    @fws

    The point of the link is the temporal realm of politics and finding where people can find some common ground, not theology. We do not live in a theocracy. In considering theology, it should be self-evident that there are many conservative Christians who will not be able to agree theologically and how to implement their beliefs: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Reformed, Anglicans, Baptists, and so forth.

    P.S. There is nothing wrong with allowing the Law to do it’s job as a curb or to exercise self-control in the temporal realm. This is politics not the gospel.

  • Susan

    @fws

    The point of the link is the temporal realm of politics and finding where people can find some common ground, not theology. We do not live in a theocracy. In considering theology, it should be self-evident that there are many conservative Christians who will not be able to agree theologically and how to implement their beliefs: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Reformed, Anglicans, Baptists, and so forth.

    P.S. There is nothing wrong with allowing the Law to do it’s job as a curb or to exercise self-control in the temporal realm. This is politics not the gospel.

  • fws

    Susan @ 159

    Ah but God rules everything.

    Anything that is truly a Good Work , which is always about mercy being done, God the Holy Spirit is the Author of that Susan. Nothing good happens out of any man unless it is the Holy Spirit working it in that man Susan. How is it that I am to surgically separate that overwhelming and everywhere present fact from politics or what men do?

    You are so very right that NONE of this has anything whatsoever to do with the Holy Gospel or christianity or what makes one a Christian or being a christian. true that!

  • fws

    Susan @ 159

    Ah but God rules everything.

    Anything that is truly a Good Work , which is always about mercy being done, God the Holy Spirit is the Author of that Susan. Nothing good happens out of any man unless it is the Holy Spirit working it in that man Susan. How is it that I am to surgically separate that overwhelming and everywhere present fact from politics or what men do?

    You are so very right that NONE of this has anything whatsoever to do with the Holy Gospel or christianity or what makes one a Christian or being a christian. true that!

  • Larry

    Exactly Tom, they assume their false dilemma then hyperventilate, then quote for us ‘stories’ that too assume the false dilemma as if the arguments under the umbrella of the false dilemma make the false dilemma anything but a false dilemma.

    I’ve heard this same huff and puff under the Clinton Administration, it was “the reason” a third party “it’s not a time to make a statement now” BS made hay too. You know why its never the “time to make a statement” because it never will be because the “other parties guy is in” so it is always “never the time to make a statement”.

    They always “blame the third party desires” when they offer nothing but a big government liberal in wolves clothing. MR 16+ years ago would have been indistinguishable from BC, its only due to BO brash socialism is MR falsely appearing to be “conservative” and for smaller less controlling government. Hell just look at the base principals behind Mormonism itself you know exactly just how laughable MR as a “less gov.” president would be.

    The reality is the Rep. has been overtaken by a “third party” it just claims its “the” party and not a third party and all voting for MR ARE voting for a de facto third party. If a party offers an at best loser and faker at all levels in the first place, and mostly foisted upon the rank and file by the system itself, then the ever infamously ballyhooed “wasted vote” has already been created and its called Mitt Romney, et. al. Since the republican machinery has increasingly gone left over the decades, the third party already exists, it’s just flying under the banner of “Republican” and attempting to oust the original party. It’s a surreptitious third party and it foists itself on the conservatives crying wolf and the sky will fall if you don’t play their game in their sand box with their toys only. It slips in just like in the theological realm false doctrine does: first, by tolerance, then by equal time, then by domination. Funny how tolerance leads to intolerance every single time.

    Hell Ronald Reagan had the good since and stated plainly, because the exact same thing happened to the democratic party to what we see today, that he didn’t leave the Dem. Party it left him. Same thing here. Hell the Rep. party originally started as a third party.

    Thus, it is no wonder that folks at least considering if not doing something other than voting for the slop offered are always speaking of freedom to vote citing both the secular and theological. But the tolerance pretenders and gospeleers always proclaim freedom in why they vote but wag their finger and toss law (and that includes binding your conscience as if you did something wrong!) when it comes to YOUR vote.

    Such is the very short sightedness and reactionary nature that always gets us in this country into our situations in the first place.

    You have a right to vote as a citizen of the US and NO party owns your vote by either explicit or implied chicken little the sky is falling conscience pressure. Caving in to such pressure means you have de facto lost your vote and you are only pretending its yours to make, when in fact you are nothing more than a means to party machine’s pulling the lever. They don’t have to force your arm, merely bind your conscience and scream, “the sky is falling, the sky is falling”. All they have to do, and this cuts for disenchanted dems/libs too, is paint the other guy as the devil so as to create the fear mongering. Once they do that, then you’ll flee to their obvious demagoguery.

    If you think MR is going to govern ANY less lawlessly than BO has then you did not pay attention to the Rep. Convention at all to what they did to the cons and Paul and others. What we have running right now, and both cons. and libs. have to be honest is nothing more than to third world third rate demagogues with parties that have largely “drank the koolaid” along with them.

  • Larry

    Exactly Tom, they assume their false dilemma then hyperventilate, then quote for us ‘stories’ that too assume the false dilemma as if the arguments under the umbrella of the false dilemma make the false dilemma anything but a false dilemma.

    I’ve heard this same huff and puff under the Clinton Administration, it was “the reason” a third party “it’s not a time to make a statement now” BS made hay too. You know why its never the “time to make a statement” because it never will be because the “other parties guy is in” so it is always “never the time to make a statement”.

    They always “blame the third party desires” when they offer nothing but a big government liberal in wolves clothing. MR 16+ years ago would have been indistinguishable from BC, its only due to BO brash socialism is MR falsely appearing to be “conservative” and for smaller less controlling government. Hell just look at the base principals behind Mormonism itself you know exactly just how laughable MR as a “less gov.” president would be.

    The reality is the Rep. has been overtaken by a “third party” it just claims its “the” party and not a third party and all voting for MR ARE voting for a de facto third party. If a party offers an at best loser and faker at all levels in the first place, and mostly foisted upon the rank and file by the system itself, then the ever infamously ballyhooed “wasted vote” has already been created and its called Mitt Romney, et. al. Since the republican machinery has increasingly gone left over the decades, the third party already exists, it’s just flying under the banner of “Republican” and attempting to oust the original party. It’s a surreptitious third party and it foists itself on the conservatives crying wolf and the sky will fall if you don’t play their game in their sand box with their toys only. It slips in just like in the theological realm false doctrine does: first, by tolerance, then by equal time, then by domination. Funny how tolerance leads to intolerance every single time.

    Hell Ronald Reagan had the good since and stated plainly, because the exact same thing happened to the democratic party to what we see today, that he didn’t leave the Dem. Party it left him. Same thing here. Hell the Rep. party originally started as a third party.

    Thus, it is no wonder that folks at least considering if not doing something other than voting for the slop offered are always speaking of freedom to vote citing both the secular and theological. But the tolerance pretenders and gospeleers always proclaim freedom in why they vote but wag their finger and toss law (and that includes binding your conscience as if you did something wrong!) when it comes to YOUR vote.

    Such is the very short sightedness and reactionary nature that always gets us in this country into our situations in the first place.

    You have a right to vote as a citizen of the US and NO party owns your vote by either explicit or implied chicken little the sky is falling conscience pressure. Caving in to such pressure means you have de facto lost your vote and you are only pretending its yours to make, when in fact you are nothing more than a means to party machine’s pulling the lever. They don’t have to force your arm, merely bind your conscience and scream, “the sky is falling, the sky is falling”. All they have to do, and this cuts for disenchanted dems/libs too, is paint the other guy as the devil so as to create the fear mongering. Once they do that, then you’ll flee to their obvious demagoguery.

    If you think MR is going to govern ANY less lawlessly than BO has then you did not pay attention to the Rep. Convention at all to what they did to the cons and Paul and others. What we have running right now, and both cons. and libs. have to be honest is nothing more than to third world third rate demagogues with parties that have largely “drank the koolaid” along with them.

  • helen

    fws
    The constitution here is wrong. We the People do not rule. We have rulers that have been placed over us by God himself. Our votes are God´s instrument for the selection process in the USA.

    And do you vote, from your safe haven in Brazil, for what those of us who live here have to live under?

  • helen

    fws
    The constitution here is wrong. We the People do not rule. We have rulers that have been placed over us by God himself. Our votes are God´s instrument for the selection process in the USA.

    And do you vote, from your safe haven in Brazil, for what those of us who live here have to live under?

  • BW

    Larry,

    I can remember Democrats trying to recruit me, whenever I mentioned I was thinking of voting for a third party, to vote for Kerry in the 2004 election because Bush had to be gone at all costs before the country collapsed. Now the situation is reversed.

  • BW

    Larry,

    I can remember Democrats trying to recruit me, whenever I mentioned I was thinking of voting for a third party, to vote for Kerry in the 2004 election because Bush had to be gone at all costs before the country collapsed. Now the situation is reversed.

  • SKPeterson

    Abby @ 155 – Phil Bredesen was the Dem. governor of Tennessee until he retired before this past election. He presided over several years of balanced budgets, while not increasing taxes or imposing an income tax. So, yes, it can be done. Bredesen is also not on anyone’s short list for doing anything with any sort of responsibility in DC.

    Frank @160 – I don’t think good works always imply mercy. That may often be the case, but many good works are also works of justice. Not so much the redressing of perceived injustice that undergirds so much socio-religious talk of “justice”, but rather the justice given to the persistent widow, for example. The simple reading that each must be given his due opportunity and receive his fair recompense.

    Now how do justice and mercy come into being? Community. And community is then the body of “law”, custom, courtesy, and relationships that enable civil society to exist and thereby allow justice and mercy to be administered.

    Larry @ 161 – I always figured that if Arkansas had been a machine Republican state, and not a machine Democrat state, Bill Clinton would have been hailed as one of the greatest Republican presidents, ever. And he’d probably be vilified as the perfect personification of evil by the Democrats.

  • SKPeterson

    Abby @ 155 – Phil Bredesen was the Dem. governor of Tennessee until he retired before this past election. He presided over several years of balanced budgets, while not increasing taxes or imposing an income tax. So, yes, it can be done. Bredesen is also not on anyone’s short list for doing anything with any sort of responsibility in DC.

    Frank @160 – I don’t think good works always imply mercy. That may often be the case, but many good works are also works of justice. Not so much the redressing of perceived injustice that undergirds so much socio-religious talk of “justice”, but rather the justice given to the persistent widow, for example. The simple reading that each must be given his due opportunity and receive his fair recompense.

    Now how do justice and mercy come into being? Community. And community is then the body of “law”, custom, courtesy, and relationships that enable civil society to exist and thereby allow justice and mercy to be administered.

    Larry @ 161 – I always figured that if Arkansas had been a machine Republican state, and not a machine Democrat state, Bill Clinton would have been hailed as one of the greatest Republican presidents, ever. And he’d probably be vilified as the perfect personification of evil by the Democrats.

  • SKPeterson

    Frank – helen has you @ 162. Here, the Constitution does make “the people” the source of authority and legitimacy in government not the elected officials. They are not rulers.

  • SKPeterson

    Frank – helen has you @ 162. Here, the Constitution does make “the people” the source of authority and legitimacy in government not the elected officials. They are not rulers.

  • Norman Teigen

    It was interesting to scroll through these many and varied comments. Many of the writers seem to be looking at the upcoming election through their various lenses of religious perception and expression. One does not get very far, I think, in such an approach. It is important to remove these lenses and consider that an election is more of a secular matter than a religious one.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Luheran Synod

  • Norman Teigen

    It was interesting to scroll through these many and varied comments. Many of the writers seem to be looking at the upcoming election through their various lenses of religious perception and expression. One does not get very far, I think, in such an approach. It is important to remove these lenses and consider that an election is more of a secular matter than a religious one.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Luheran Synod

  • Carl Vehse

    On the recent Islamoterrorist attack of the U.S. Consulate in Libya and the brutal murders of the U.S. Ambassador and three other U.S. citizens, and the raising of an Islamic flag over the Consulate, there is this quote from Barack “Head up his traitorous keister” Obama:

    “But I was pretty certain and continue to be pretty certain that there are going to be bumps in the road because, you know, in a lot of these places the one organizing principle has been Islam.”

    The dead body of a murdered American is, to Obama, simply a “bump in the road” for an Islamic vehicle?!?

    Emperor Palpatine is a more qualified candidate over this piece of Demonicrat slime.

  • Carl Vehse

    On the recent Islamoterrorist attack of the U.S. Consulate in Libya and the brutal murders of the U.S. Ambassador and three other U.S. citizens, and the raising of an Islamic flag over the Consulate, there is this quote from Barack “Head up his traitorous keister” Obama:

    “But I was pretty certain and continue to be pretty certain that there are going to be bumps in the road because, you know, in a lot of these places the one organizing principle has been Islam.”

    The dead body of a murdered American is, to Obama, simply a “bump in the road” for an Islamic vehicle?!?

    Emperor Palpatine is a more qualified candidate over this piece of Demonicrat slime.

  • Stone the Crows

    Dear brother Teigen, I think that is the best way to consider the upcoming election. As I posted previously, this is rather like being in the positon of an employer who must decide to keep a particular employee, or tell them their services are no longer required and hire someone else, and… one cannot hire some mythical perfect employee, one hires from those who have applied. It isn’t a perfect process, but neither are we, we must look at the candidates at hand, consider what they must do and how qualified they are for the task, and/or how well they have performed that task. And if we’re unable or unwilling to make that decision then we must live with the fact that we’ve relegated the decision to a much smaller group than there should be.

  • Stone the Crows

    Dear brother Teigen, I think that is the best way to consider the upcoming election. As I posted previously, this is rather like being in the positon of an employer who must decide to keep a particular employee, or tell them their services are no longer required and hire someone else, and… one cannot hire some mythical perfect employee, one hires from those who have applied. It isn’t a perfect process, but neither are we, we must look at the candidates at hand, consider what they must do and how qualified they are for the task, and/or how well they have performed that task. And if we’re unable or unwilling to make that decision then we must live with the fact that we’ve relegated the decision to a much smaller group than there should be.

  • Carl Vehse

    In this election, voters who are rational Americans are not going to vote for Traitorbama; while traitors and (in Chicago) the dead will.

    This leaves the voters who are complete idiots, including those who are not lying when they say they are undecided.

    What kind of emotional or primitive appeal could be applied to these voters? Facts and intelligent arguments are simple a waste of time, like trying to teach a pig to sing.

  • Carl Vehse

    In this election, voters who are rational Americans are not going to vote for Traitorbama; while traitors and (in Chicago) the dead will.

    This leaves the voters who are complete idiots, including those who are not lying when they say they are undecided.

    What kind of emotional or primitive appeal could be applied to these voters? Facts and intelligent arguments are simple a waste of time, like trying to teach a pig to sing.

  • Norman Teigen

    The election is soon here. Predictability is uncertain but current polls shows the elected, incumbent President to be slightly ahead. Opposition to the elected, incumbent President is expressed by some as being a righteous cause. Opposition to the elected, incumbent President is seen by some church leaders as so important as to warrant a hijacking of the liturgical calendar with a Pulpit Freedom Sunday. Opposition to the elected, incumbent President’s health care legislation is seen by some to be a defense of American religious liberty.

    The elected, incumbent President’s health care initiative was seen by his numerous detractors as being unconstitutional. The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the constitutionality of the program.

    The opponents of the duly elected, incumbent President are running out of time and arguments. The President of a Lutheran synod who seeks to fan political opposition to the duly elected, incumbent President will soon find himself holding an empty bag of persuasion. Other churches who follow in this matter in this way will find themselves out of range of credibility.

    The time for repentance is at hand.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Lutheran Synod

  • Norman Teigen

    The election is soon here. Predictability is uncertain but current polls shows the elected, incumbent President to be slightly ahead. Opposition to the elected, incumbent President is expressed by some as being a righteous cause. Opposition to the elected, incumbent President is seen by some church leaders as so important as to warrant a hijacking of the liturgical calendar with a Pulpit Freedom Sunday. Opposition to the elected, incumbent President’s health care legislation is seen by some to be a defense of American religious liberty.

    The elected, incumbent President’s health care initiative was seen by his numerous detractors as being unconstitutional. The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the constitutionality of the program.

    The opponents of the duly elected, incumbent President are running out of time and arguments. The President of a Lutheran synod who seeks to fan political opposition to the duly elected, incumbent President will soon find himself holding an empty bag of persuasion. Other churches who follow in this matter in this way will find themselves out of range of credibility.

    The time for repentance is at hand.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Lutheran Synod

  • Jim_777

    Personally, whether I consider this election through a secular or religious lens, I don’t care for either of the men running. I bitterly voted for McCain against my better judgement last time and have regretted it ever since. This time around around, my choice is between an abortion-loving atheist or a proud member of an anti-Christian cult. I choose none of the above. Besides, this present world is doomed anyway. I’d rather sound my time trying to tell people about the Gospel than screw around with this foolishness. Moreover, if enough people reject yet another liberal establishment Republican maybe the GOP will eventually let an actual conservative have the nomination. These two clowns can can go suck an egg.

  • Jim_777

    Personally, whether I consider this election through a secular or religious lens, I don’t care for either of the men running. I bitterly voted for McCain against my better judgement last time and have regretted it ever since. This time around around, my choice is between an abortion-loving atheist or a proud member of an anti-Christian cult. I choose none of the above. Besides, this present world is doomed anyway. I’d rather sound my time trying to tell people about the Gospel than screw around with this foolishness. Moreover, if enough people reject yet another liberal establishment Republican maybe the GOP will eventually let an actual conservative have the nomination. These two clowns can can go suck an egg.

  • fws

    skp @ 164

    Good works , which God is always the Author of extorting them from Old Adam on earth are always done “for the unworthy (sinners).. indeed without our prayer (for the faithless)… even for all the wicked.( even those who actively seek to subvert mercy being done). (Small Catechism, 1st article and 4th petition).

    That being said, you are right. For those who´s job is to render justice, doing that is a good work.
    But note that justice always requires a death on the part of someone. Someone must sacrifice. Someone must be held “dead to rights” for someone else to receive justice.

    It is an unfortunate fact, that among Old Adams, there can be no mercy without, first, a sacrifice being made. We are talking here about true morality which is always about two or more people and not the false sacrifice that is about Old Adam trying to do an Obedience to God (eg “virtue is it´s own reward”) that only Christ can render.

    I would suggest that the relationship between justice and mercy is better described in the story of the baby to cut in two rather than Luke 18´s story of the Antinomian Judge nagged by a conscience dead even to love. Note in that story that the two mothers are prostitutes. Ah the Bible is such a wonderful book. Even when it is teaching us about earthy carnal and philosophical righteousness.

    SKP @ 165

    Helen did indeed raise a good question. I can´t yet vote here in Brasil, but I intend to stay here. So should I be voting in election in the usa or not? Good question and one I honestly hadn´t thought of.
    I suggest that you are wrong here SKP regardless of what the constitution states. Here is the chain of reasoning:
    1) It is ultimately God ruling us and making whatever goodness and mercy happens among us.(Small Catechism 1st Article)
    2) God literally “extorts” ANY and ALL Goodness and mercy that happens out of us with the Law. (FC art VI 3rd Use)
    3) We have been blessed with the Rule of Law (constitutional republicanism, at least in theory) as contrasted to the Rule of Men (rule by decree, either by king, bureaucratic fiat, or the mob rule of the fickle 51%. )
    4) The constitution says we the people, who have placed themselves under the rule of that Law. It is the Law that rules, not “we the people” which would be democracy. This is because our nearly secular founders were heavily influenced by christianity and a distrust of Old Adam even not calling him that by name.
    5) We elect officials. They DO rule over us.
    6) Our elected officials do not take an oath to defend and uphold the will of “We the People”. They take an oath, curiously, to defend the Rule of Law (constitution) from enemies without and from enemies from among “We the People”.
    7) The idea is the “We the People” will almost always get things wrong, or be swayed by a demogogue or such. The idea is that the Constitution (in theory) will apply the Rule of Law , against We The People in order to defend views and persons offensive and unpopular to We the People.
    8) Yeah. I will vote, thinking through what Helen says. I am an American. I do love our government for what it stands for. And I intend to support it however I can, even living afar.

  • fws

    skp @ 164

    Good works , which God is always the Author of extorting them from Old Adam on earth are always done “for the unworthy (sinners).. indeed without our prayer (for the faithless)… even for all the wicked.( even those who actively seek to subvert mercy being done). (Small Catechism, 1st article and 4th petition).

    That being said, you are right. For those who´s job is to render justice, doing that is a good work.
    But note that justice always requires a death on the part of someone. Someone must sacrifice. Someone must be held “dead to rights” for someone else to receive justice.

    It is an unfortunate fact, that among Old Adams, there can be no mercy without, first, a sacrifice being made. We are talking here about true morality which is always about two or more people and not the false sacrifice that is about Old Adam trying to do an Obedience to God (eg “virtue is it´s own reward”) that only Christ can render.

    I would suggest that the relationship between justice and mercy is better described in the story of the baby to cut in two rather than Luke 18´s story of the Antinomian Judge nagged by a conscience dead even to love. Note in that story that the two mothers are prostitutes. Ah the Bible is such a wonderful book. Even when it is teaching us about earthy carnal and philosophical righteousness.

    SKP @ 165

    Helen did indeed raise a good question. I can´t yet vote here in Brasil, but I intend to stay here. So should I be voting in election in the usa or not? Good question and one I honestly hadn´t thought of.
    I suggest that you are wrong here SKP regardless of what the constitution states. Here is the chain of reasoning:
    1) It is ultimately God ruling us and making whatever goodness and mercy happens among us.(Small Catechism 1st Article)
    2) God literally “extorts” ANY and ALL Goodness and mercy that happens out of us with the Law. (FC art VI 3rd Use)
    3) We have been blessed with the Rule of Law (constitutional republicanism, at least in theory) as contrasted to the Rule of Men (rule by decree, either by king, bureaucratic fiat, or the mob rule of the fickle 51%. )
    4) The constitution says we the people, who have placed themselves under the rule of that Law. It is the Law that rules, not “we the people” which would be democracy. This is because our nearly secular founders were heavily influenced by christianity and a distrust of Old Adam even not calling him that by name.
    5) We elect officials. They DO rule over us.
    6) Our elected officials do not take an oath to defend and uphold the will of “We the People”. They take an oath, curiously, to defend the Rule of Law (constitution) from enemies without and from enemies from among “We the People”.
    7) The idea is the “We the People” will almost always get things wrong, or be swayed by a demogogue or such. The idea is that the Constitution (in theory) will apply the Rule of Law , against We The People in order to defend views and persons offensive and unpopular to We the People.
    8) Yeah. I will vote, thinking through what Helen says. I am an American. I do love our government for what it stands for. And I intend to support it however I can, even living afar.

  • fws

    Norman T
    +1

  • fws

    Norman T
    +1

  • DonS

    Norman @ 170:

    The president was duly elected in 2008. He has not yet been elected in 2012, and the outcome of this upcoming election is very much in doubt. It is absolutely legitimate for those who oppose his policies to vigorously do so during this election season. It is absolutely legitimate for pastors and other leaders in the faith to speak up about issues they regard as immoral, including pro-abortion policies and health care regulations which require people to take action in opposition to their religious conscience. Repentance by all people is always appropriate, but when you call only on those who oppose your political views to repent your motives may legitimately be subject to suspicion.

    You are wrong to say that the Obamacare legislation has been constitutionally upheld. Only the individual mandate has been ruled on, and upheld narrowly on the basis that it is actually what the Democrats insisted it was not, a tax. In that same decision, the Supreme Court overturned as unconstitutional the statute’s expansion of Medicaid, giving states an opt-out to that expansion. Moreover, there are many current challenges to the insidious abortifacient and birth control mandates in the HHS regulations arising out of the statute, which have not yet reached the higher courts, but where the plaintiffs have won some early district court victories.

  • DonS

    Norman @ 170:

    The president was duly elected in 2008. He has not yet been elected in 2012, and the outcome of this upcoming election is very much in doubt. It is absolutely legitimate for those who oppose his policies to vigorously do so during this election season. It is absolutely legitimate for pastors and other leaders in the faith to speak up about issues they regard as immoral, including pro-abortion policies and health care regulations which require people to take action in opposition to their religious conscience. Repentance by all people is always appropriate, but when you call only on those who oppose your political views to repent your motives may legitimately be subject to suspicion.

    You are wrong to say that the Obamacare legislation has been constitutionally upheld. Only the individual mandate has been ruled on, and upheld narrowly on the basis that it is actually what the Democrats insisted it was not, a tax. In that same decision, the Supreme Court overturned as unconstitutional the statute’s expansion of Medicaid, giving states an opt-out to that expansion. Moreover, there are many current challenges to the insidious abortifacient and birth control mandates in the HHS regulations arising out of the statute, which have not yet reached the higher courts, but where the plaintiffs have won some early district court victories.

  • Carl Vehse

    Norman Tiegen @170: “The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the constitutionality of the program.”

    The Supreme Court of the United States has also upheld the constitutionality of genocidal murder by abortion. So much for the infallibility and innocence of the SCOTUS.

    Some other government officials also thought they could get away with crimes against humanity, but were eventually brought to trial, conviction, and sentencing. May God also bring this to pass for the traitors in this country.

  • Carl Vehse

    Norman Tiegen @170: “The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the constitutionality of the program.”

    The Supreme Court of the United States has also upheld the constitutionality of genocidal murder by abortion. So much for the infallibility and innocence of the SCOTUS.

    Some other government officials also thought they could get away with crimes against humanity, but were eventually brought to trial, conviction, and sentencing. May God also bring this to pass for the traitors in this country.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Just like to add to Carl’s prayer the hope that health-care reform will finally allow Carl (@169) to receive the mental-health treatment he needs.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Just like to add to Carl’s prayer the hope that health-care reform will finally allow Carl (@169) to receive the mental-health treatment he needs.

  • Norman Teigen

    Jim, 177. Yes, that is the point. The world is doomed. In my church we acknowledge that when we sing hymn 524 on Trinity 25 “Hora novissima, tempora pessima” The World Is Very Evil. But, even though the world is very evil, the medieval hymn writer Bernard of Cluny offers the hope of the Church: Arise, arise, good Christian, Let right to wrng succeed; Let penitential sorrow/To heavenly gladness lead.

    One cannot find righteousness by doing the right things. One cannot find righteousness in a political platforms no matter how attractive the ideas might seem.

    It is a misreading of my words to suggest that I would urge repentance only for those whose political ideas I might not agree to. Lutherans accept the idea of individual daily repentance whenever they pray ‘Vater Unser in Himmelreich.’

    Presidents, professors, preachers, and pastors can be considered to be misleading the faithful by equating civic political activity with the work of Christ’s church.

    To my Missouri Synod friends who might be subject to a political sermon on Pulpit Sunday: skip this Sunday but come back next week.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Lutheran Synod

  • Norman Teigen

    Jim, 177. Yes, that is the point. The world is doomed. In my church we acknowledge that when we sing hymn 524 on Trinity 25 “Hora novissima, tempora pessima” The World Is Very Evil. But, even though the world is very evil, the medieval hymn writer Bernard of Cluny offers the hope of the Church: Arise, arise, good Christian, Let right to wrng succeed; Let penitential sorrow/To heavenly gladness lead.

    One cannot find righteousness by doing the right things. One cannot find righteousness in a political platforms no matter how attractive the ideas might seem.

    It is a misreading of my words to suggest that I would urge repentance only for those whose political ideas I might not agree to. Lutherans accept the idea of individual daily repentance whenever they pray ‘Vater Unser in Himmelreich.’

    Presidents, professors, preachers, and pastors can be considered to be misleading the faithful by equating civic political activity with the work of Christ’s church.

    To my Missouri Synod friends who might be subject to a political sermon on Pulpit Sunday: skip this Sunday but come back next week.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Lutheran Synod

  • Abby

    SKP@164 I’m glad to hear of the good Democrat gov. that practiced economic sense. There are good Democrats out there, I know.

  • Abby

    SKP@164 I’m glad to hear of the good Democrat gov. that practiced economic sense. There are good Democrats out there, I know.

  • Abby
  • Abby
  • Abby

    I have to pay more in co-pay for my medications than contraceptives cost. Everyone can pay for their own contraceptives and abortion producing drugs out-of-pocket. It is not a “woman’s health issue.”

  • Abby

    I have to pay more in co-pay for my medications than contraceptives cost. Everyone can pay for their own contraceptives and abortion producing drugs out-of-pocket. It is not a “woman’s health issue.”

  • Other Gary

    tODD @ 176: +100!

  • Other Gary

    tODD @ 176: +100!

  • Abby

    Romney’s Mormonism bothers me greatly. I wish we truly had another viable choice.

    John Warwick Montgomery on Mormonism (and if he will vote for Romney):

    http://issuesetc.org/2012/09/24/1-mormonism-dr-john-warwick-montgomery-92412/

  • Abby

    Romney’s Mormonism bothers me greatly. I wish we truly had another viable choice.

    John Warwick Montgomery on Mormonism (and if he will vote for Romney):

    http://issuesetc.org/2012/09/24/1-mormonism-dr-john-warwick-montgomery-92412/

  • Susan

    @Abby

    Thanks for the link. I was surprised by John Warwick Montgomery’s choice. Have you brushed up on what Obama believes? If not here are a couple of good resources:

    Issues Etc.- Liberation Theology (2008)
    Dr. H. Wayne House of Faith Seminary
    http://issuesetc.org/podcast/Show10071108H2S2.mp3

    The Marxist Roots of Black Liberation Theology
    http://www.acton.org/pub/commentary/2008/04/02/marxist-roots-black-liberation-theology

    Personally, I find this belief system more dangerous than Mormonism when it comes to public office.

  • Susan

    @Abby

    Thanks for the link. I was surprised by John Warwick Montgomery’s choice. Have you brushed up on what Obama believes? If not here are a couple of good resources:

    Issues Etc.- Liberation Theology (2008)
    Dr. H. Wayne House of Faith Seminary
    http://issuesetc.org/podcast/Show10071108H2S2.mp3

    The Marxist Roots of Black Liberation Theology
    http://www.acton.org/pub/commentary/2008/04/02/marxist-roots-black-liberation-theology

    Personally, I find this belief system more dangerous than Mormonism when it comes to public office.

  • Abby

    Susan @183 : Yes, I (think) I know what Obama believes. He sure has shown no sign of active Christian faith since he’s been in office. Did he ever decide which church he wanted to go to? Or is it on the golf course? But, again, I wish there was a better viable choice. But at some point in our road we are going to get even muddier than this. (As far as candidate choices. I dread to think of what we may be looking at in the next generation.)

    Looking at Romney’s performance record — I cannot see any of his Mormonism directing his governance. His father governed Michigan for a long time and Michigan prospered under him. With no Mormonism showing there either from what I gather. From a purely business/executive/experience persepective, I am still for him. And other commenters have expressed also that this is a secular and not a religious office. (It would be a LONG time before a Lutheran candidate would come forward to vote for! And the rest of the country would say — Lutheran? What’s that?)

    Obama’s handling of the anti-American/Obama outbreaks — with the murder of our ambassador — is extremely dismal and pathetic. (I am not advocating war.) His current campaign tactics of trying to look “cool” by being with comedians and the View instead of leading our country right now is cowardly and shameful. We must surely be looking like fools to the world. I’ll bet they are in utter disbelief! The people he is attempting to pander to may not even bother to enter the polls when the time comes.

    According to Rasmussen, the numbers are 46/47. The same as Reagan/Carter at this time.

    I’ll see what kind of hope I have after the first debate.

  • Abby

    Susan @183 : Yes, I (think) I know what Obama believes. He sure has shown no sign of active Christian faith since he’s been in office. Did he ever decide which church he wanted to go to? Or is it on the golf course? But, again, I wish there was a better viable choice. But at some point in our road we are going to get even muddier than this. (As far as candidate choices. I dread to think of what we may be looking at in the next generation.)

    Looking at Romney’s performance record — I cannot see any of his Mormonism directing his governance. His father governed Michigan for a long time and Michigan prospered under him. With no Mormonism showing there either from what I gather. From a purely business/executive/experience persepective, I am still for him. And other commenters have expressed also that this is a secular and not a religious office. (It would be a LONG time before a Lutheran candidate would come forward to vote for! And the rest of the country would say — Lutheran? What’s that?)

    Obama’s handling of the anti-American/Obama outbreaks — with the murder of our ambassador — is extremely dismal and pathetic. (I am not advocating war.) His current campaign tactics of trying to look “cool” by being with comedians and the View instead of leading our country right now is cowardly and shameful. We must surely be looking like fools to the world. I’ll bet they are in utter disbelief! The people he is attempting to pander to may not even bother to enter the polls when the time comes.

    According to Rasmussen, the numbers are 46/47. The same as Reagan/Carter at this time.

    I’ll see what kind of hope I have after the first debate.

  • Susan

    @Abby

    Agreed that we are voting for a secular office rather than church office. I had to laugh when I read what you wrote about a Lutheran president. Michelle Bachman is a former LCMS Lutheran who was attacked for the belief that the Pope (office) is the antichrist. I’m not sure we would fare well with the MSM wanting to dissect Lutheranism in the most unfavorable way. I shudder to think what they would do to the sacraments.

    For me, the election has become an open and shut case. Before the 2008 election, there were those of us who tried to warn of the implications of black liberation theology and it’s marxist elements. I would encourage you to listen to the Issues Etc. audio from 2008. We have watched Obama’s black liberation activism play out on the national stage: the division of Americans into groups of oppressors and oppressed – class warfare, race, gender, homosexuality, and so on. I want the chaos to end. I want a public servant who holds to traditional American values and fiscal responsibility. Not to mention the importance of someone who is favorable to pro-life beliefs. Obama is the antithesis of these things.

    Since I have to choose between a skillful executive with a proven track record of responsible practices/decisions who is a Mormon and a destructive politician with a proven track record of irresponsible practices/decisions who is a black liberation activist. Hands down, I choose the Mormon. The death of the ambassador is but another example in a long list of Obama’s malpractices and negligences. He seems to only appreciate the celebrity and pomp and circumstance of the office, but despises the drudgery and demands of the actual work. Not to mention he thinks he’s smarter than his advisors even though he has no background/training to support his hubris.

    I’m not concerned about the debates in making my decision though I wonder how our culture of Paris Hilton celebrity will respond. Romney isn’t flashy and seems more like a steady Eddie who knows how to keep his nose to the grindstone and how to work well with people. As far as I can tell, he is a man of substance who seems to be well thought out on the important issues and how to correct problems. He doesn’t invite or seek to cultivate the cult worship as Obama does nor does he seek to use Obama’s oily TBN rhetorical skills to deceive. He seems to be applying for public servant in chief not celebrity in chief.

  • Susan

    @Abby

    Agreed that we are voting for a secular office rather than church office. I had to laugh when I read what you wrote about a Lutheran president. Michelle Bachman is a former LCMS Lutheran who was attacked for the belief that the Pope (office) is the antichrist. I’m not sure we would fare well with the MSM wanting to dissect Lutheranism in the most unfavorable way. I shudder to think what they would do to the sacraments.

    For me, the election has become an open and shut case. Before the 2008 election, there were those of us who tried to warn of the implications of black liberation theology and it’s marxist elements. I would encourage you to listen to the Issues Etc. audio from 2008. We have watched Obama’s black liberation activism play out on the national stage: the division of Americans into groups of oppressors and oppressed – class warfare, race, gender, homosexuality, and so on. I want the chaos to end. I want a public servant who holds to traditional American values and fiscal responsibility. Not to mention the importance of someone who is favorable to pro-life beliefs. Obama is the antithesis of these things.

    Since I have to choose between a skillful executive with a proven track record of responsible practices/decisions who is a Mormon and a destructive politician with a proven track record of irresponsible practices/decisions who is a black liberation activist. Hands down, I choose the Mormon. The death of the ambassador is but another example in a long list of Obama’s malpractices and negligences. He seems to only appreciate the celebrity and pomp and circumstance of the office, but despises the drudgery and demands of the actual work. Not to mention he thinks he’s smarter than his advisors even though he has no background/training to support his hubris.

    I’m not concerned about the debates in making my decision though I wonder how our culture of Paris Hilton celebrity will respond. Romney isn’t flashy and seems more like a steady Eddie who knows how to keep his nose to the grindstone and how to work well with people. As far as I can tell, he is a man of substance who seems to be well thought out on the important issues and how to correct problems. He doesn’t invite or seek to cultivate the cult worship as Obama does nor does he seek to use Obama’s oily TBN rhetorical skills to deceive. He seems to be applying for public servant in chief not celebrity in chief.

  • Abby

    He’s just speaking now by Bill Clinton’s invitation at his Global Initiatives. Clinton introduced him very warmly and praised his cooperative work to foster jobs and trade for the welfare of all countries in the world. The United States gives twice as much to aid the poor in other countries as any other country in the world. And the biggest successes have to do with helping the people to become workers so that they can sustain themselves and prosper. We help them from the ground up to be able to move forward. And work makes the difference between countries in how their people fare in all ways. It even helps to get rid of destructive fanaticism from their midst.

    In the debates there isn’t much time to say much other than soundbites. I just hope he’s on his feet, sharp and strong against the other’s flimsly rhetoric.

  • Abby

    He’s just speaking now by Bill Clinton’s invitation at his Global Initiatives. Clinton introduced him very warmly and praised his cooperative work to foster jobs and trade for the welfare of all countries in the world. The United States gives twice as much to aid the poor in other countries as any other country in the world. And the biggest successes have to do with helping the people to become workers so that they can sustain themselves and prosper. We help them from the ground up to be able to move forward. And work makes the difference between countries in how their people fare in all ways. It even helps to get rid of destructive fanaticism from their midst.

    In the debates there isn’t much time to say much other than soundbites. I just hope he’s on his feet, sharp and strong against the other’s flimsly rhetoric.

  • Abby

    “He seems to be applying for public servant in chief not celebrity in chief.” Exactly.

  • Abby

    “He seems to be applying for public servant in chief not celebrity in chief.” Exactly.

  • Jen Lehmann

    I have decided not to vote, but it’s not because I don’t like either of the candidates. It’s because everything has been so ugly, and I don’t easily agree with either major party. Trying to decide was making me sick to my stomach, starting almost a year ago now. It is much better for me and for my family if I let my husband make the decision for our family this time around. My vocation is my family, first and foremost. I am appalled that anyone would be so assuming and judgmental to be appalled by my thought out and careful decision. BTW, I don’t normally vote Repulican, so I have a hard time understanding how we can make a blanket statement that a non-vote is a vote for Obama.

  • Jen Lehmann

    I have decided not to vote, but it’s not because I don’t like either of the candidates. It’s because everything has been so ugly, and I don’t easily agree with either major party. Trying to decide was making me sick to my stomach, starting almost a year ago now. It is much better for me and for my family if I let my husband make the decision for our family this time around. My vocation is my family, first and foremost. I am appalled that anyone would be so assuming and judgmental to be appalled by my thought out and careful decision. BTW, I don’t normally vote Repulican, so I have a hard time understanding how we can make a blanket statement that a non-vote is a vote for Obama.

  • Susan

    @ Abby

    If you would like more in-depth understanding of Romney’s positions and plans, he has them posted on his website. Sadly, the majority of people will not bother to read them. Like you, I hope he does well in the debates. When it comes to knowledge, understanding, and experience, I think he can clean the floor with Obama. I hope he is allowed to address the issues rather than inundated with distracting/silly questions from the moderators. We’ll see.

  • Susan

    @ Abby

    If you would like more in-depth understanding of Romney’s positions and plans, he has them posted on his website. Sadly, the majority of people will not bother to read them. Like you, I hope he does well in the debates. When it comes to knowledge, understanding, and experience, I think he can clean the floor with Obama. I hope he is allowed to address the issues rather than inundated with distracting/silly questions from the moderators. We’ll see.

  • Abby

    “Before the 2008 election, there were those of us who tried to warn of the implications of black liberation theology and it’s marxist elements.” I wonder how he can try to say he believes in this with a straight face — as he flies around “on Air Force One” speaking to college kids about their student loans (Clint Eastwood :) ) And playing a LOT of golf and throwing expensive parties!

    “Another disturbing thing in the Obama speech is where he talks about how he would like to organize welfare recipients into a voting bloc and harness their power. He is certainly a slice and dice politician wanting to divide everyone into special interest groups and pit them against each other rather than one who is interested in a melting pot of a United States of America.” More like this!

  • Abby

    “Before the 2008 election, there were those of us who tried to warn of the implications of black liberation theology and it’s marxist elements.” I wonder how he can try to say he believes in this with a straight face — as he flies around “on Air Force One” speaking to college kids about their student loans (Clint Eastwood :) ) And playing a LOT of golf and throwing expensive parties!

    “Another disturbing thing in the Obama speech is where he talks about how he would like to organize welfare recipients into a voting bloc and harness their power. He is certainly a slice and dice politician wanting to divide everyone into special interest groups and pit them against each other rather than one who is interested in a melting pot of a United States of America.” More like this!

  • fws

    Abby,

    You are putting words into a man´s mouth and ascribing things to him that he has never publicly espoused.

    That is just sinful Abby. You should stop.

    there is plenty of what he has actualy said and done to argue against. No need to bear false witness.

    Sure everyone, even Obama in his political ads has done so. Not an excuse to do likewise.

  • fws

    Abby,

    You are putting words into a man´s mouth and ascribing things to him that he has never publicly espoused.

    That is just sinful Abby. You should stop.

    there is plenty of what he has actualy said and done to argue against. No need to bear false witness.

    Sure everyone, even Obama in his political ads has done so. Not an excuse to do likewise.

  • Susan

    @ Abby

    Loved Eastwood and Romney taking it all in stride. I think he would make a gracious president.

  • Susan

    @ Abby

    Loved Eastwood and Romney taking it all in stride. I think he would make a gracious president.

  • Abby

    @191 “You are putting words into a man´s mouth and ascribing things to him that he has never publicly espoused. ”

    I don’t know what words you are referring to?

  • Abby

    @191 “You are putting words into a man´s mouth and ascribing things to him that he has never publicly espoused. ”

    I don’t know what words you are referring to?

  • Carl Vehse

    “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.” – Obozo at the UN

  • Carl Vehse

    “The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam.” – Obozo at the UN

  • Carl Vehse

    This month, 11 years after 9/11, one of the political cesspools of the East Coast held their 27th Annual New York Muslim Parade, at which two islamoterrorists demanded laws be enacted by the UN which would prohibit free speech in the U.S. that was offensive to islamists.

    One of the VIP Parade Marshall, Tony Avello, a Democrat state senator, got up from his seat on stage and walked off. The events were captured in a 3-min. Youtube video.

  • Carl Vehse

    This month, 11 years after 9/11, one of the political cesspools of the East Coast held their 27th Annual New York Muslim Parade, at which two islamoterrorists demanded laws be enacted by the UN which would prohibit free speech in the U.S. that was offensive to islamists.

    One of the VIP Parade Marshall, Tony Avello, a Democrat state senator, got up from his seat on stage and walked off. The events were captured in a 3-min. Youtube video.

  • Abby

    @194 Don’t we as Christians see Mohammed as a “self-proclaimed” prophet — not a “real” one? I wish a bunch of people would study the life of King David. He went after, and killed, “idolators.” He went after them with a vengence. He was a hawk for God. Read the Psalms. I remember saying in class that if he would have had atomic bombs the Arab world would have been annihilated! (Now — don’t misunderstand my words. I was married to a Christian Arab. They escaped the Middle East (Syria and Lebanon) a hundred years ago for the same reasons as are on display now.) I love the Christian Middle East heritage my children have.

  • Abby

    @194 Don’t we as Christians see Mohammed as a “self-proclaimed” prophet — not a “real” one? I wish a bunch of people would study the life of King David. He went after, and killed, “idolators.” He went after them with a vengence. He was a hawk for God. Read the Psalms. I remember saying in class that if he would have had atomic bombs the Arab world would have been annihilated! (Now — don’t misunderstand my words. I was married to a Christian Arab. They escaped the Middle East (Syria and Lebanon) a hundred years ago for the same reasons as are on display now.) I love the Christian Middle East heritage my children have.

  • Other Gary

    You’re not serious, Abby–tell me you’re not, right?

    You don’t mean you love children of Middle Eastern descent/heritage/ethnicity so long as their _Christian_ children, do you??!! Even if they’re being raised to follow a false prophet, we still care about their well-being, yes?

    And what does ancient King David have to do with anything? There’s no place for hawks for God today. None. If King David were alive today and running for President of the United States, I’d never vote for him in a million years exactly because of theocratic ideas about putting idolaters to the sword. That time is past.

  • Other Gary

    You’re not serious, Abby–tell me you’re not, right?

    You don’t mean you love children of Middle Eastern descent/heritage/ethnicity so long as their _Christian_ children, do you??!! Even if they’re being raised to follow a false prophet, we still care about their well-being, yes?

    And what does ancient King David have to do with anything? There’s no place for hawks for God today. None. If King David were alive today and running for President of the United States, I’d never vote for him in a million years exactly because of theocratic ideas about putting idolaters to the sword. That time is past.

  • Abby

    @197 You are totally right. I didn’t speak right. Jesus Himself will take care of everything when He comes back. I was meaning though that we should be strong against the radical terrorists. Why should they be free to put anyone they want (Americans, their wives if they want, their daughters if they are disloyal to the faith) to death by their swords? Do you not see that happening?

    But I will acknowledge that I am biased towards Christians. However, I pray for all people — men, women, and children. That they would know Christ. For I do not believe in leaving anyone in their false religion. I pray for everyone’s welfare. And that we should do good to all mankind.

    Would you want to be beheaded by the radicals for not converting to Islam? My husband’s family came here to live in peace and practice their Christian worship without fear for their families. They really do know what is going on over there.

    I only mention King David because it was an extremely interesting study. Especially his faith and extreme and uncompromising love of God. And Jesus Himself is called the Son of David — several times in the Gospels. (Also Acts and Revelation) Jesus is David’s throne now established forever.

  • Abby

    @197 You are totally right. I didn’t speak right. Jesus Himself will take care of everything when He comes back. I was meaning though that we should be strong against the radical terrorists. Why should they be free to put anyone they want (Americans, their wives if they want, their daughters if they are disloyal to the faith) to death by their swords? Do you not see that happening?

    But I will acknowledge that I am biased towards Christians. However, I pray for all people — men, women, and children. That they would know Christ. For I do not believe in leaving anyone in their false religion. I pray for everyone’s welfare. And that we should do good to all mankind.

    Would you want to be beheaded by the radicals for not converting to Islam? My husband’s family came here to live in peace and practice their Christian worship without fear for their families. They really do know what is going on over there.

    I only mention King David because it was an extremely interesting study. Especially his faith and extreme and uncompromising love of God. And Jesus Himself is called the Son of David — several times in the Gospels. (Also Acts and Revelation) Jesus is David’s throne now established forever.

  • http://truthwithoutexcuse.blogspot.com Kyle

    There are some who try to claim the Republican party is the “Christian party”, but the reality is that there’s no such thing. While I agree with “conservatives” on the Biblical definition of marriage and sanctity of life, I also agree with “liberals” that the Bible tells us to care for the earth responsibly and take care of the poor. I believe in the right to bear arms, but I do think we need better gun laws. I believe the welfare system is good, but I agree it needs reform. I see good things on both sides, but I also see some very bad things on both sides, and I think that modern politicians have become terribly polarized extremists.

    I did not like any of the Republican nominees this time around. A few excited me at first, but as I got to hear more, I knew I couldn’t support them. Unfortunately, the one I liked the least is the one who got the nomination!

    For a while, I was thinking I may actually vote to re-elect President Obama because I agree that we should do away with the extra tax cuts for the very wealthy and I think good diplomacy before war is extremely important. But I can’t vote for someone who openly supports same-sex marriage and abortion and who bends over backwards to appease the Muslim world while allowing so much anti-Christian and anti-Israel sentiment to go unchallenged.

    But I also cannot vote for Romney. I won’t vote for a Mormon because I cannot expect someone who is not a Christian to uphold Christian standards. And I dislike Romney particularly because EVEN THOUGH he claims to be against abortion and same-sex marriage now, he has supported these things in the past. It doesn’t help that he created a plan similar to Obamacare during his time as governor, and now he blasts it as some evil thing just because it’s not popular. I see him as a very “fake” person who will simply say what he thinks he needs to say to win people over.

    I really wasn’t sure how to vote until I thought of it this way: We think we have a civic responsibility to vote, but the Bible never tells us we have to; and we always talk about “choosing the lesser of two evils”, but where in the Bible does it tell us to ever choose evil for ourselves? If I cannot find a godly candidate to vote for, I will not vote, and I’m OK with that. The Bible tells us that God is the one who places leaders in positions of authority, so whether I play a role in the election or not, if God is really in control, then I must trust him! I pray that whoever is elected will be moved to make godly decisions and lead us in the right direction, but if their hearts are hardened, I pray for God’s provision and protection for me and for his people. “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And I look forward hopefully to the day when this will all be over and God will be the just judge on his throne. I may not be able to vote for either presidential candidate, but I vote for God!

  • http://truthwithoutexcuse.blogspot.com Kyle

    There are some who try to claim the Republican party is the “Christian party”, but the reality is that there’s no such thing. While I agree with “conservatives” on the Biblical definition of marriage and sanctity of life, I also agree with “liberals” that the Bible tells us to care for the earth responsibly and take care of the poor. I believe in the right to bear arms, but I do think we need better gun laws. I believe the welfare system is good, but I agree it needs reform. I see good things on both sides, but I also see some very bad things on both sides, and I think that modern politicians have become terribly polarized extremists.

    I did not like any of the Republican nominees this time around. A few excited me at first, but as I got to hear more, I knew I couldn’t support them. Unfortunately, the one I liked the least is the one who got the nomination!

    For a while, I was thinking I may actually vote to re-elect President Obama because I agree that we should do away with the extra tax cuts for the very wealthy and I think good diplomacy before war is extremely important. But I can’t vote for someone who openly supports same-sex marriage and abortion and who bends over backwards to appease the Muslim world while allowing so much anti-Christian and anti-Israel sentiment to go unchallenged.

    But I also cannot vote for Romney. I won’t vote for a Mormon because I cannot expect someone who is not a Christian to uphold Christian standards. And I dislike Romney particularly because EVEN THOUGH he claims to be against abortion and same-sex marriage now, he has supported these things in the past. It doesn’t help that he created a plan similar to Obamacare during his time as governor, and now he blasts it as some evil thing just because it’s not popular. I see him as a very “fake” person who will simply say what he thinks he needs to say to win people over.

    I really wasn’t sure how to vote until I thought of it this way: We think we have a civic responsibility to vote, but the Bible never tells us we have to; and we always talk about “choosing the lesser of two evils”, but where in the Bible does it tell us to ever choose evil for ourselves? If I cannot find a godly candidate to vote for, I will not vote, and I’m OK with that. The Bible tells us that God is the one who places leaders in positions of authority, so whether I play a role in the election or not, if God is really in control, then I must trust him! I pray that whoever is elected will be moved to make godly decisions and lead us in the right direction, but if their hearts are hardened, I pray for God’s provision and protection for me and for his people. “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And I look forward hopefully to the day when this will all be over and God will be the just judge on his throne. I may not be able to vote for either presidential candidate, but I vote for God!


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