The 47%

As you have probably heard, Mitt Romney was secretly recorded at a fundraiser saying this:

“There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it — that that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. … These are people who pay no income tax. … [M]y job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”

via Fact-checking Romney’s “47 percent” comment – Political Hotsheet – CBS News.

It is, in fact, true that around 47% of Americans don’t pay income taxes, though they do pay payroll and sales taxes, among others.  I pose to you two possible reactions:

(1)  This is terrible!  Everyone should pay something, if only a little, to make them full stakeholders in America.  These people who pay nothing are the constituency for raising taxes on everyone else!

(2)  This is good!  The government takes too much of people’s income in taxes as it is.  We should increase the number of people who pay nothing, to the point of eliminating the income tax altogether.

Which is the more conservative reaction?

Of course, it’s another matter to say that this same 47% is also dependent, entitled, irresponsible, and the rest of Romney’s insinuations.  I know quite a few of these folks who aren’t that way.  Many of them are staunch conservatives.

Does this statement show that Romney feels contempt for almost half of the nation that he aspires to lead?  Does this statement–another example of his proclivity for undiplomatic, undisciplined, and careless statements–show him to be undiplomatic, undisciplined, and careless?  Do this make you think he is less than presidential material?

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About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.lutheransonline.com/thebeaufortmission Ted Crandall

    This all reminds me a of when Congressman Joe Wilson cried out, “You lie!” Everyone was obsessed with his lack of grace and charm and seemed oblivious to the question of whether or not the President was actually lying. This time no one seems to notice that only about half of the country is supporting the other half…

    “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money. ” –Margaret Thatcher

  • http://www.lutheransonline.com/thebeaufortmission Ted Crandall

    This all reminds me a of when Congressman Joe Wilson cried out, “You lie!” Everyone was obsessed with his lack of grace and charm and seemed oblivious to the question of whether or not the President was actually lying. This time no one seems to notice that only about half of the country is supporting the other half…

    “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money. ” –Margaret Thatcher

  • Susan

    One thing to be aware of is that there is a gap in the recording immediately after Romney’s comment that 47% of voters don’t pay taxes. The cut in the audio and video comes while Romney is in mid-sentence, so we actually do not have the full audio of what Romney said on the subject.

  • Susan

    One thing to be aware of is that there is a gap in the recording immediately after Romney’s comment that 47% of voters don’t pay taxes. The cut in the audio and video comes while Romney is in mid-sentence, so we actually do not have the full audio of what Romney said on the subject.

  • Susan

    Another thing to be aware of in this election is the gross media bias in their reports. It’s so bad, the main stream media is being called an arm of the Obama campaign. Prager University did a study and teaches a course that shows how awfully skewed it is:

  • Susan

    Another thing to be aware of in this election is the gross media bias in their reports. It’s so bad, the main stream media is being called an arm of the Obama campaign. Prager University did a study and teaches a course that shows how awfully skewed it is:

  • bob

    How many things has Romney said that show he wants to create jobs and grow the entire economy, which would help the so-called 47%. You can’t draw inferences from one redacted statement. Otherwise, we would all believe that our current President believes that since he flies around in Air Force One, he should have everything his way to the detriment of those who cling only to their guns and religion.

  • bob

    How many things has Romney said that show he wants to create jobs and grow the entire economy, which would help the so-called 47%. You can’t draw inferences from one redacted statement. Otherwise, we would all believe that our current President believes that since he flies around in Air Force One, he should have everything his way to the detriment of those who cling only to their guns and religion.

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 2, Romney has never defended himself by saying the content of the gap, if we could hear it, would completely change what he said. No one who heard him that day has come forward to make that claim either.

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 2, Romney has never defended himself by saying the content of the gap, if we could hear it, would completely change what he said. No one who heard him that day has come forward to make that claim either.

  • Tom Hering

    Then again, the talk was given at the home of a fundraiser known for his twice-weekly sex parties. So maybe the gap was a quick little break for some entertainment. ;-)

  • Tom Hering

    Then again, the talk was given at the home of a fundraiser known for his twice-weekly sex parties. So maybe the gap was a quick little break for some entertainment. ;-)

  • SKPeterson

    Are the 47% all sponges off the government? No. But many of them are willing for a large percentage of the population to be so, and actively vote in that way. That is what Mr. Romney was asserting.

    As to taxes, I would advocate position b), and if I wanted to put Mr. Obama on the defensive I would start by advocating a complete repeal of the payroll tax and elimination of any federal taxes whatsoever on the first $25K of income per individual; no payroll tax (which is simply the government helping itself to the people’s money, interest free), no Medicare, no Social Security, but also no earned income tax credits. Lower income individuals are already nickeled and dimed by their state and local governments, the least the federal government could do is back off and give them some breathing room, not impose additional costs on the businesses that would hire lower income/lower skilled workers, and eliminate a lot of unnecessary paperwork associated with tax filing. Moreover, the odious practice of taking money from the poor without paying interest on it would end.

  • SKPeterson

    Are the 47% all sponges off the government? No. But many of them are willing for a large percentage of the population to be so, and actively vote in that way. That is what Mr. Romney was asserting.

    As to taxes, I would advocate position b), and if I wanted to put Mr. Obama on the defensive I would start by advocating a complete repeal of the payroll tax and elimination of any federal taxes whatsoever on the first $25K of income per individual; no payroll tax (which is simply the government helping itself to the people’s money, interest free), no Medicare, no Social Security, but also no earned income tax credits. Lower income individuals are already nickeled and dimed by their state and local governments, the least the federal government could do is back off and give them some breathing room, not impose additional costs on the businesses that would hire lower income/lower skilled workers, and eliminate a lot of unnecessary paperwork associated with tax filing. Moreover, the odious practice of taking money from the poor without paying interest on it would end.

  • Michael B.

    But let me ask a hypothetical question. Suppose you were poorer and you and your children were dependent on the government for health care. And let’s say it was the case that if Obama loses, you, your wife, and your children’s health care is cancelled. I think it’s a safe bet that your opinion on Obama would change.

    On another note, I suspect a lot of these “47%” feel the situation is reversed. In other words, it is them who are supporting others, by having to take low paying jobs while others get rich. Or when they pay $25 returned check fees while others collect interest.

  • Michael B.

    But let me ask a hypothetical question. Suppose you were poorer and you and your children were dependent on the government for health care. And let’s say it was the case that if Obama loses, you, your wife, and your children’s health care is cancelled. I think it’s a safe bet that your opinion on Obama would change.

    On another note, I suspect a lot of these “47%” feel the situation is reversed. In other words, it is them who are supporting others, by having to take low paying jobs while others get rich. Or when they pay $25 returned check fees while others collect interest.

  • Susan

    @Tom

    When Mother Jones first put the clips out, Romney asked that the full tape be released so that all of what was said could be heard. Mother Jones released what they said were the unedited tapes, but failed to acknowledge that 1-2 minutes of one clip were missing. That you expect Romeny to remember verbatim what he said at the fundraiser or answer every critic to your satisfaction is ludicrous. He has spoken many times about what he want to do on economic issues, employment, and other critical issues.

    As for Romney’s character – his life speaks for itself and exemplifies hard work, generosity, compassion, and decency. The ugly remark accusing guilt by association with the host of the fundraiser can be applied multiple times to Obama and doesn’t seem to serve any point other than to underline your dislike of Romney.

  • Susan

    @Tom

    When Mother Jones first put the clips out, Romney asked that the full tape be released so that all of what was said could be heard. Mother Jones released what they said were the unedited tapes, but failed to acknowledge that 1-2 minutes of one clip were missing. That you expect Romeny to remember verbatim what he said at the fundraiser or answer every critic to your satisfaction is ludicrous. He has spoken many times about what he want to do on economic issues, employment, and other critical issues.

    As for Romney’s character – his life speaks for itself and exemplifies hard work, generosity, compassion, and decency. The ugly remark accusing guilt by association with the host of the fundraiser can be applied multiple times to Obama and doesn’t seem to serve any point other than to underline your dislike of Romney.

  • Tom Hering

    IF a greater and greater percentage of the population is becoming dependent on government, what might be one big reason for it? Might companies abandoning communities, treating employees as a disposable resource, downsizing workforces, outsourcing jobs, and eliminating healthcare and pensions have anything to do with it? Where else is a percentage of the population supposed to turn for a measure of security when companies betray the social contract?

  • Tom Hering

    IF a greater and greater percentage of the population is becoming dependent on government, what might be one big reason for it? Might companies abandoning communities, treating employees as a disposable resource, downsizing workforces, outsourcing jobs, and eliminating healthcare and pensions have anything to do with it? Where else is a percentage of the population supposed to turn for a measure of security when companies betray the social contract?

  • Susan

    @Michael B

    The argument regarding medical care via ObamaCare doesn’t address several realities. Before ObamaCare, it was difficult to find a doctor accepting new patients insured by Medicare if one didn’t have the supplemental insurance of Medicare Advantage. It was even harder to find a doctor who would accept new Medicaid patients. Now, because of ObamaCare, many doctors have withdrawn from accepting any of the government insurance programs – about a 30% decrease in my state of Texas. What good is ObamaCare if you cannot find a doctor who will accept you as a patient? This forces people into the hospital ER which is what ObamaCare was supposed to solve.

    Last year, one of my neighbors, who fell into the uninsurable category, applied for ObamaCare and found out it was a crock. She was paying around $800 a month with a $3000 per year deductible and it will not cover any medications. Since she still had to pay for her own medications, which is a huge part of her monthly medical expenses, it was cheaper for her to be uninsured. Again, ObamaCare is not solving the problems it was supposed to solve. In both this case and the one above, why pay for insurance that is basically useless?

  • Susan

    @Michael B

    The argument regarding medical care via ObamaCare doesn’t address several realities. Before ObamaCare, it was difficult to find a doctor accepting new patients insured by Medicare if one didn’t have the supplemental insurance of Medicare Advantage. It was even harder to find a doctor who would accept new Medicaid patients. Now, because of ObamaCare, many doctors have withdrawn from accepting any of the government insurance programs – about a 30% decrease in my state of Texas. What good is ObamaCare if you cannot find a doctor who will accept you as a patient? This forces people into the hospital ER which is what ObamaCare was supposed to solve.

    Last year, one of my neighbors, who fell into the uninsurable category, applied for ObamaCare and found out it was a crock. She was paying around $800 a month with a $3000 per year deductible and it will not cover any medications. Since she still had to pay for her own medications, which is a huge part of her monthly medical expenses, it was cheaper for her to be uninsured. Again, ObamaCare is not solving the problems it was supposed to solve. In both this case and the one above, why pay for insurance that is basically useless?

  • Random Lutheran

    Romney seems to have been making more of an electoral than a philosophical point. What sounds to my ears to be unspoken is this: the 47% are not his concern as a candidate for President because he won’t be able to sway them to vote for him. His concern as a candidate for President is to get the 53% on his side, as that would be his only chance for winning. It helps when we remember that he’s speaking to potential donors, giving them reasons to help pay for his campaign. Or: does something else you heard from him in the recording contradict this possible understanding?

  • Random Lutheran

    Romney seems to have been making more of an electoral than a philosophical point. What sounds to my ears to be unspoken is this: the 47% are not his concern as a candidate for President because he won’t be able to sway them to vote for him. His concern as a candidate for President is to get the 53% on his side, as that would be his only chance for winning. It helps when we remember that he’s speaking to potential donors, giving them reasons to help pay for his campaign. Or: does something else you heard from him in the recording contradict this possible understanding?

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 9, is the one or two minutes “missing”? Or were they never recorded? It’s an amateur tape, apparently made by a waiter or bartender. I mean, how many times have you had to change batteries after you started shooting something with your camera? (I’m guessing what happened, of course, but it’s a pretty reasonable – and less paranoid – guess. I’m looking at you, Mr. Beck.)

    As for my “ugly” remark, I think the location of the talk does indeed reflect on Romney’s supposed uprightness. Context always matters. Are you arguing that Romney is so removed from the real world – nay, so removed from his own world of the ultra-rich – that he didn’t know about his host’s, uh, “tastes”? They’re pretty well known. Clearly, this paragon of Mormon virtue doesn’t care who he associates himself with, so long as the money keeps coming in. This goes to the issue of character, which conservatives keep telling us is what matters most in a President. Except when they need to excuse their candidate, I guess.

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 9, is the one or two minutes “missing”? Or were they never recorded? It’s an amateur tape, apparently made by a waiter or bartender. I mean, how many times have you had to change batteries after you started shooting something with your camera? (I’m guessing what happened, of course, but it’s a pretty reasonable – and less paranoid – guess. I’m looking at you, Mr. Beck.)

    As for my “ugly” remark, I think the location of the talk does indeed reflect on Romney’s supposed uprightness. Context always matters. Are you arguing that Romney is so removed from the real world – nay, so removed from his own world of the ultra-rich – that he didn’t know about his host’s, uh, “tastes”? They’re pretty well known. Clearly, this paragon of Mormon virtue doesn’t care who he associates himself with, so long as the money keeps coming in. This goes to the issue of character, which conservatives keep telling us is what matters most in a President. Except when they need to excuse their candidate, I guess.

  • Random Lutheran

    Susan (#11): you wrote, ObamaCare is not solving the problems it was supposed to solve.

    The better way of putting this would probably change out supposed with claimed. This bill came out of the shadows and was not allowed to be debated at any length; we have no idea what it was actually supposed to do. There is a good chance that the negative effects you point to are, however, exactly the sorts of things this plan was intended to generate. The more doctors who drop out, the more people who withdraw from the system, the greater weight to the argument that there needs to not just be regulation, but direct oversight and governance of all medical professionals because so many people cannot obtain health care. Tight controls on medical care = tight controls on the citizenry.

  • Random Lutheran

    Susan (#11): you wrote, ObamaCare is not solving the problems it was supposed to solve.

    The better way of putting this would probably change out supposed with claimed. This bill came out of the shadows and was not allowed to be debated at any length; we have no idea what it was actually supposed to do. There is a good chance that the negative effects you point to are, however, exactly the sorts of things this plan was intended to generate. The more doctors who drop out, the more people who withdraw from the system, the greater weight to the argument that there needs to not just be regulation, but direct oversight and governance of all medical professionals because so many people cannot obtain health care. Tight controls on medical care = tight controls on the citizenry.

  • Julian

    Both positions are conservative, with a lot of assumptions.

    Position #1 while standing on the ground of a traditional understanding of the value of hard work and “earning your keep”, assumes that those who do not pay taxes are not working. Obviously a flawed assumption (considering those who are retired, having already “earned their keep”, those who simply don’t earn enough to pay taxes, but work harder than most people, and those whose financial gains don’t make it onto tax returns).

    Position #2 stands on the same ground, and assumes that everyone is working or at least, ought to be. If nobody pays taxes, the welfare state has no money, because absolutely no one needs to be on welfare, because our churches are absorbing the social burden. Also, we have an extra room at our house for Grandma so she doesn’t have to go to the nursing home. Huh!

    In a perfect conservative world, I would lean to position #2, but my righteousness does not currently exceed that of the Pharisees.

  • Julian

    Both positions are conservative, with a lot of assumptions.

    Position #1 while standing on the ground of a traditional understanding of the value of hard work and “earning your keep”, assumes that those who do not pay taxes are not working. Obviously a flawed assumption (considering those who are retired, having already “earned their keep”, those who simply don’t earn enough to pay taxes, but work harder than most people, and those whose financial gains don’t make it onto tax returns).

    Position #2 stands on the same ground, and assumes that everyone is working or at least, ought to be. If nobody pays taxes, the welfare state has no money, because absolutely no one needs to be on welfare, because our churches are absorbing the social burden. Also, we have an extra room at our house for Grandma so she doesn’t have to go to the nursing home. Huh!

    In a perfect conservative world, I would lean to position #2, but my righteousness does not currently exceed that of the Pharisees.

  • Susan

    @Tom

    Mother Jones has said that the 1-2 minutes is missing because it was not recorded. There are those who would argue that it was very likely unfairly edited to show Romney in the worst possible light. Did you know that in Florida, it is illegal to record people in their private homes without their permission? That adds to the argument of the taping being purposely used to find a way to present Romney in the worst possible light.

    If you want to defend your ugly remark, then you need to equally apply it to Obama and all his donors who are well known miscreants.

  • Susan

    @Tom

    Mother Jones has said that the 1-2 minutes is missing because it was not recorded. There are those who would argue that it was very likely unfairly edited to show Romney in the worst possible light. Did you know that in Florida, it is illegal to record people in their private homes without their permission? That adds to the argument of the taping being purposely used to find a way to present Romney in the worst possible light.

    If you want to defend your ugly remark, then you need to equally apply it to Obama and all his donors who are well known miscreants.

  • Susan

    @Random Lutheran

    All excellent points. I would add that they might not be satisfied until our nation is under a one payer system – government health insurance with involuntary euthanasia services for the weakest members in our society.

  • Susan

    @Random Lutheran

    All excellent points. I would add that they might not be satisfied until our nation is under a one payer system – government health insurance with involuntary euthanasia services for the weakest members in our society.

  • WebMonk

    Anyone interested in the fact that what Romney claimed is just plain wrong? As Dr. Veith pointed out, there is a very large chunk of the “47%” who actually do vote Republican – 41 to 45 percent of the “47%” actually vote Republican.

    Romney was just stupidly wrong in his statement. Close to half of the “47%” which Romney says are solidly behind President Obama will probably wind up voting for Romney.

  • WebMonk

    Anyone interested in the fact that what Romney claimed is just plain wrong? As Dr. Veith pointed out, there is a very large chunk of the “47%” who actually do vote Republican – 41 to 45 percent of the “47%” actually vote Republican.

    Romney was just stupidly wrong in his statement. Close to half of the “47%” which Romney says are solidly behind President Obama will probably wind up voting for Romney.

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 16, even granting all you’ve said about the circumstances of the video, Romney still said what he said, and he hasn’t claimed that the unrecorded minute or two would change that.

  • Tom Hering

    Susan @ 16, even granting all you’ve said about the circumstances of the video, Romney still said what he said, and he hasn’t claimed that the unrecorded minute or two would change that.

  • Tom Hering

    What WebMonk said @ 18.

  • Tom Hering

    What WebMonk said @ 18.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And let’s say it was the case that if Obama loses, you, your wife, and your children’s health care is cancelled. I think it’s a safe bet that your opinion on Obama would change.”

    No, it is not a safe bet. Some people actually have some dignity and confidence. If I had no money and no insurance and fell ill, I would work out a payment plan with the provider. Duh. The provider deserves to get paid, but why is it so desperately important that the insurance company, its employees, executives and shareholders get paid? The health care act only ensures that those people get a check. It does not ensure that providers get a check, or even that people get treatment. That law is the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA). The health care act is worse than a universal plan and worse than having no insurance at all. It only ensures that insurance companies get paid. That is it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “And let’s say it was the case that if Obama loses, you, your wife, and your children’s health care is cancelled. I think it’s a safe bet that your opinion on Obama would change.”

    No, it is not a safe bet. Some people actually have some dignity and confidence. If I had no money and no insurance and fell ill, I would work out a payment plan with the provider. Duh. The provider deserves to get paid, but why is it so desperately important that the insurance company, its employees, executives and shareholders get paid? The health care act only ensures that those people get a check. It does not ensure that providers get a check, or even that people get treatment. That law is the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA). The health care act is worse than a universal plan and worse than having no insurance at all. It only ensures that insurance companies get paid. That is it.

  • Susan

    The problem with tarring Romney’s remark with a broad brush is that it is true. If the polls are correct, 47% of Americans will not vote for him and if government figures are correct, 47% do not pay federal income taxes. That the two figures appear to be conflated is an error. Romney has not backed away from the truth in these statements and there does need to be a national acknowledgment of the latter.

    I doubt that anyone would argue that there is not a portion of Americans who game the welfare system or that our tax system does not need to be fixed. I also do not know anyone, left or right, who wants to end our government safety nets or tax cuts for those who truly need them. I doubt there is anything that will convince those who want to paint Romney in the worst possible light no matter what is presented.

    The real problem is fixing the $16 trillion in debt, a credit rating that has been downgraded twice, improving the economy for business growth that will add jobs, and so forth – that will alleviate the drag on the safety nets and such a large percentage not being able to earn enough to pay taxes. Most of the 47% who understand basic economics, like supply and demand, or are concerned about the legacy we are passing on the next generation will vote for him.

  • Susan

    The problem with tarring Romney’s remark with a broad brush is that it is true. If the polls are correct, 47% of Americans will not vote for him and if government figures are correct, 47% do not pay federal income taxes. That the two figures appear to be conflated is an error. Romney has not backed away from the truth in these statements and there does need to be a national acknowledgment of the latter.

    I doubt that anyone would argue that there is not a portion of Americans who game the welfare system or that our tax system does not need to be fixed. I also do not know anyone, left or right, who wants to end our government safety nets or tax cuts for those who truly need them. I doubt there is anything that will convince those who want to paint Romney in the worst possible light no matter what is presented.

    The real problem is fixing the $16 trillion in debt, a credit rating that has been downgraded twice, improving the economy for business growth that will add jobs, and so forth – that will alleviate the drag on the safety nets and such a large percentage not being able to earn enough to pay taxes. Most of the 47% who understand basic economics, like supply and demand, or are concerned about the legacy we are passing on the next generation will vote for him.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The problem isn’t that some x% get something from the government. In principle, there is nothing wrong with Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, universal single payer health care, welfare, etc. The problem is that they are not solvent and cannot be made solvent as they are currently structured.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The problem isn’t that some x% get something from the government. In principle, there is nothing wrong with Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, universal single payer health care, welfare, etc. The problem is that they are not solvent and cannot be made solvent as they are currently structured.

  • Susan

    Anyone who thinks government health care is benign needs to read this 2008 story. Talk to people who are on Medicaid and you’ll hear a lot of stories about the substandard care they recieve:

    Oregon Offers Terminal Patients Doctor-Assisted Suicide Instead of Medical Care

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392962,00.html#ixzz27Oea46BH

    Some terminally ill patients in Oregon who turned to their state for health care were denied treatment and offered doctor-assisted suicide instead, a proposal some experts have called a “chilling” corruption of medical ethics.

  • Susan

    Anyone who thinks government health care is benign needs to read this 2008 story. Talk to people who are on Medicaid and you’ll hear a lot of stories about the substandard care they recieve:

    Oregon Offers Terminal Patients Doctor-Assisted Suicide Instead of Medical Care

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392962,00.html#ixzz27Oea46BH

    Some terminally ill patients in Oregon who turned to their state for health care were denied treatment and offered doctor-assisted suicide instead, a proposal some experts have called a “chilling” corruption of medical ethics.

  • Susan

    I would like to offer a recent post from the divine MZ dissecting the msm and their “fact checkers” – aka campaign arm of Obama. I do wish she had included that food stamp rolls jumped 15 million due to Obama’s love affair with executive fiat:

    Some time in early August, Mitt Romney started running ads hitting Obama for gutting the work requirements in the landmark 1996 welfare reform law. As soon as he did this, the media “fact checkers” pounced and accused Romney of lying; the campaign reporters relied on the fact checkers and spent the next several weeks demanding Romney explain why he was running a misleading ad; Chris Matthews screamed at Reince Priebus on air that talking about welfare reform was racist; and Bill Clinton accused Romney of lying about about what Obama had done in his DNC speech.

    The trouble is — and I know it’s difficult to accept that Bill Clinton might have been less than honest with the American public — that Obama did seriously undermine the work requirements in welfare reform. The key personnel in Obama’s Department of Health and Human Services that work on welfare policy have extensive public track records of opposing workfare. Fact checkers didn’t talk to any critical sources, including the guy who wrote the work requirements in welfare reform and made the charges against the Obama administration to begin with. And because they know work requirements for welfare are hugely popular, the Obama administration is basically engaged in a statistical con game to make you think their new welfare requirements have done something other than gut the law.

    And that’s just for starters. If you want to read about maybe the worst example of media malpractice this campaign season — and that’s setting a high bar — I encourage you to read my feature in the latest Weekly Standard on “Obama’s Palace Guard.” Suffice to say, there are layers upon layers of dishonesty and incompetence here. It’s infuriating.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/obama-s-palace-guard_652895.html?page=1

  • Susan

    I would like to offer a recent post from the divine MZ dissecting the msm and their “fact checkers” – aka campaign arm of Obama. I do wish she had included that food stamp rolls jumped 15 million due to Obama’s love affair with executive fiat:

    Some time in early August, Mitt Romney started running ads hitting Obama for gutting the work requirements in the landmark 1996 welfare reform law. As soon as he did this, the media “fact checkers” pounced and accused Romney of lying; the campaign reporters relied on the fact checkers and spent the next several weeks demanding Romney explain why he was running a misleading ad; Chris Matthews screamed at Reince Priebus on air that talking about welfare reform was racist; and Bill Clinton accused Romney of lying about about what Obama had done in his DNC speech.

    The trouble is — and I know it’s difficult to accept that Bill Clinton might have been less than honest with the American public — that Obama did seriously undermine the work requirements in welfare reform. The key personnel in Obama’s Department of Health and Human Services that work on welfare policy have extensive public track records of opposing workfare. Fact checkers didn’t talk to any critical sources, including the guy who wrote the work requirements in welfare reform and made the charges against the Obama administration to begin with. And because they know work requirements for welfare are hugely popular, the Obama administration is basically engaged in a statistical con game to make you think their new welfare requirements have done something other than gut the law.

    And that’s just for starters. If you want to read about maybe the worst example of media malpractice this campaign season — and that’s setting a high bar — I encourage you to read my feature in the latest Weekly Standard on “Obama’s Palace Guard.” Suffice to say, there are layers upon layers of dishonesty and incompetence here. It’s infuriating.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/obama-s-palace-guard_652895.html?page=1

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 25

    Okay, but who really is behind these policies?

    Who doesn’t want the work requirement and why?

    I would argue that it is business that doesn’t want work requirements because the “most vulnerable” are very very poor workers. They would much rather have those people stay home than be anywhere near their business causing trouble and reducing the productivity of other low wage workers who are themselves challenged to stay on task and maintain a positive attitude. Employers really really don’t want to hire people with criminal records, drug abuse history, etc. They cause their costs to go up.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @ 25

    Okay, but who really is behind these policies?

    Who doesn’t want the work requirement and why?

    I would argue that it is business that doesn’t want work requirements because the “most vulnerable” are very very poor workers. They would much rather have those people stay home than be anywhere near their business causing trouble and reducing the productivity of other low wage workers who are themselves challenged to stay on task and maintain a positive attitude. Employers really really don’t want to hire people with criminal records, drug abuse history, etc. They cause their costs to go up.

  • Susan

    Oops, I attributed the Weekly Standard to the wrong Hemingway. It was written by MZ’s husband.

    @sg

    I’m not sure why there is a reaction to the welfare laws as originating with businesses and not the government who legislate and execute the tax funded programs or the populace who think able-bodied citizens should work and are aware of how often the system is abused. Perhaps it would be better to ask why the liberals are opposed to workfare and why they pretend they aren’t while running around the laws/congress to illegally dismantle it rather than make legal changes through congress.

    I’m not understanding why business motives are suspect without evidence other than what any of us would do when hiring someone to provide daycare for our kids, provide medical care, prepare our tax returns, provide banking services, and other needed services. Don’t we all prefer people without serious criminal records and those who aren’t drug addled when we pay for services? And aren’t many of us willing to give people a 2nd chance in positions of responsibility if they’ve cleaned up their act? Maybe I’m dense, but I’m not following your thinking.

  • Susan

    Oops, I attributed the Weekly Standard to the wrong Hemingway. It was written by MZ’s husband.

    @sg

    I’m not sure why there is a reaction to the welfare laws as originating with businesses and not the government who legislate and execute the tax funded programs or the populace who think able-bodied citizens should work and are aware of how often the system is abused. Perhaps it would be better to ask why the liberals are opposed to workfare and why they pretend they aren’t while running around the laws/congress to illegally dismantle it rather than make legal changes through congress.

    I’m not understanding why business motives are suspect without evidence other than what any of us would do when hiring someone to provide daycare for our kids, provide medical care, prepare our tax returns, provide banking services, and other needed services. Don’t we all prefer people without serious criminal records and those who aren’t drug addled when we pay for services? And aren’t many of us willing to give people a 2nd chance in positions of responsibility if they’ve cleaned up their act? Maybe I’m dense, but I’m not following your thinking.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    What sg said @ 23.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    What sg said @ 23.

  • Susan

    Hmm… so there is no need for daycare centers or schools to screen for pedophiles, or banks and accounting firms to screen for embezzlers or forgers, or other such positions of responsibility?

  • Susan

    Hmm… so there is no need for daycare centers or schools to screen for pedophiles, or banks and accounting firms to screen for embezzlers or forgers, or other such positions of responsibility?

  • Susan

    How could I miss that it is always the evil businesses that are the cause all of society’s ills and are the reason behind why people can’t find work. Greedy profiteers they are.

  • Susan

    How could I miss that it is always the evil businesses that are the cause all of society’s ills and are the reason behind why people can’t find work. Greedy profiteers they are.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I’m not understanding why business motives are suspect without evidence other than what any of us would do when hiring someone to provide daycare for our kids, provide medical care, prepare our tax returns, provide banking services, and other needed services.

    Without evidence? Seriously? Come on. Some x% of people are not good workers.

    Don’t we all prefer people without serious criminal records and those who aren’t drug addled when we pay for services?

    Yes!!!

    And aren’t many of us willing to give people a 2nd chance in positions of responsibility if they’ve cleaned up their act?

    No!!!

    Very few are willing because the risk to your business can be pretty high. Besides, who said anything about their having cleaned up their act? They haven’t abandoned their drug use or criminal activity. Some x% of people are criminal, drug abusing, mean, incompetent, surly, etc.

    Maybe I’m dense, but I’m not following your thinking.

    Well, it isn’t really considered polite to bring up the zero marginal productive workers. Nevertheless they exist and no one, and I mean no one wants to hire them.


    In essence, we have seen the rise of a large class of “zero marginal product workers,” to coin a term. Their productivity may not be literally zero, but it is lower than the cost of training, employing, and insuring them. That is why labor is hurting but capital is doing fine; dumping these employees is tough for the workers themselves — and arguably bad for society at large — but it simply doesn’t damage profits much. It’s a cold, hard reality, and one that we will have to deal with, one way or another.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/05/10_percent_unemployment_forever?page=full

    So, yes there is definitely evidence albeit not often discussed that there are some people who cannot get or hold a job. So, for them, a work requirement is a penalty against businesses who risk getting sued for not hiring them. With work requirements for welfare employers will be flooded with these applications because no one will hire these folks so they apply to many many employers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I’m not understanding why business motives are suspect without evidence other than what any of us would do when hiring someone to provide daycare for our kids, provide medical care, prepare our tax returns, provide banking services, and other needed services.

    Without evidence? Seriously? Come on. Some x% of people are not good workers.

    Don’t we all prefer people without serious criminal records and those who aren’t drug addled when we pay for services?

    Yes!!!

    And aren’t many of us willing to give people a 2nd chance in positions of responsibility if they’ve cleaned up their act?

    No!!!

    Very few are willing because the risk to your business can be pretty high. Besides, who said anything about their having cleaned up their act? They haven’t abandoned their drug use or criminal activity. Some x% of people are criminal, drug abusing, mean, incompetent, surly, etc.

    Maybe I’m dense, but I’m not following your thinking.

    Well, it isn’t really considered polite to bring up the zero marginal productive workers. Nevertheless they exist and no one, and I mean no one wants to hire them.


    In essence, we have seen the rise of a large class of “zero marginal product workers,” to coin a term. Their productivity may not be literally zero, but it is lower than the cost of training, employing, and insuring them. That is why labor is hurting but capital is doing fine; dumping these employees is tough for the workers themselves — and arguably bad for society at large — but it simply doesn’t damage profits much. It’s a cold, hard reality, and one that we will have to deal with, one way or another.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/05/10_percent_unemployment_forever?page=full

    So, yes there is definitely evidence albeit not often discussed that there are some people who cannot get or hold a job. So, for them, a work requirement is a penalty against businesses who risk getting sued for not hiring them. With work requirements for welfare employers will be flooded with these applications because no one will hire these folks so they apply to many many employers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Susan,

    You need to fill one position. You get 20 applicants of varying quality. Five have a criminal record or history of drug abuse. Those are the first five you eliminate from consideration.

    Would you like to be sued for discrimination if it can be established that over the course of a period of years, you never hired a single criminal or drug/alcohol abuser even though many applied?

    I. Summary
    An employer’s use of an individual’s criminal history in making employment decisions may, in some instances, violate the prohibition against employment discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended.

    http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Susan,

    You need to fill one position. You get 20 applicants of varying quality. Five have a criminal record or history of drug abuse. Those are the first five you eliminate from consideration.

    Would you like to be sued for discrimination if it can be established that over the course of a period of years, you never hired a single criminal or drug/alcohol abuser even though many applied?

    I. Summary
    An employer’s use of an individual’s criminal history in making employment decisions may, in some instances, violate the prohibition against employment discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended.

    http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Susan,

    I am not saying businesses are evil. But our society is kind of like Victorian England in some ways because there are some subjects that are so taboo we can’t seem to calm down and discuss and address them. So to avoid the inevitable incivility and impasse, we hid behind euphemisms and just pretend stuff doesn’t exist.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Susan,

    I am not saying businesses are evil. But our society is kind of like Victorian England in some ways because there are some subjects that are so taboo we can’t seem to calm down and discuss and address them. So to avoid the inevitable incivility and impasse, we hid behind euphemisms and just pretend stuff doesn’t exist.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sorry about the formatting mistake @31

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    sorry about the formatting mistake @31

  • DonS

    Romney’s comments were to a point of electoral strategy to a room full of donors who wanted to know how Romney planned to win the election. They had nothing to do with how he would serve particular citizens if elected, or anything of the sort. They were demagogued by a campaign desperate to turn attention away from failed economic and foreign policies, and amplified by a media that has lost all sense of the objectivity they claim to have. However, despite the clamorings of a media that is desperate to declare the race over with Obama the winner, polls show that these comments have not moved the needle one bit. After the Obama convention bounce subsided, the race is right back where it was in early August — essentially tied.

    As to Dr. Veith’s question, in an ideal world we would free as many folks as possible from tax liability. But, to do that, we would have to have a different, and very limited, view of government. It is not a piggy bank, to be funded by a few at the whim of the many for their own enrichment. In order to minimize the “piggy bank” mentality which seems to dominate our culture, and governmental policy, today, I vote for the first option — everyone should pay something in the way of income taxes, even if it’s just a portion of government benefits, and those taxes should rise when we vote more benefits for ourselves and fall when we choose to cut benefits.

  • DonS

    Romney’s comments were to a point of electoral strategy to a room full of donors who wanted to know how Romney planned to win the election. They had nothing to do with how he would serve particular citizens if elected, or anything of the sort. They were demagogued by a campaign desperate to turn attention away from failed economic and foreign policies, and amplified by a media that has lost all sense of the objectivity they claim to have. However, despite the clamorings of a media that is desperate to declare the race over with Obama the winner, polls show that these comments have not moved the needle one bit. After the Obama convention bounce subsided, the race is right back where it was in early August — essentially tied.

    As to Dr. Veith’s question, in an ideal world we would free as many folks as possible from tax liability. But, to do that, we would have to have a different, and very limited, view of government. It is not a piggy bank, to be funded by a few at the whim of the many for their own enrichment. In order to minimize the “piggy bank” mentality which seems to dominate our culture, and governmental policy, today, I vote for the first option — everyone should pay something in the way of income taxes, even if it’s just a portion of government benefits, and those taxes should rise when we vote more benefits for ourselves and fall when we choose to cut benefits.

  • Susan

    @sg

    Good points about marginal workers and I’m not unsympathetic to your arguments. I still don’t see why you think businesses are behind this. It’s the liberals who are promoting the abandonment of workfare, not conservatives (who numbers are typically high among small business owners). It seems to be the conservatives and the majority of citizens who believe workfare is important. It’s amazing how many small business owners were liberals until they became businessmen. “Mugged by reality” is the joke often attributed to the conversion.

    As for hiring people, my husband and I hired a struggling and newly recovering alcoholic for our work crew many years ago (no regrets), and after my husband’s death, I hired a man who had been in prison for a violent crime and was a recovered alcoholic to paint our home (no regrets). Both men had abandoned the destructive behavior that harmed them and became responsible men. I don’t think my experience is unique nor do I think legislating/mandating the hiring criminals, addicts, and so forth is the answer. Yet, I think workfare does help encourage people to clean up their acts and make an effort to find ways to get entry level positions where they can develop a good work record. It does help weed out abuses, but I have no answers for the hopefully tiny X% who are incorrigible.

  • Susan

    @sg

    Good points about marginal workers and I’m not unsympathetic to your arguments. I still don’t see why you think businesses are behind this. It’s the liberals who are promoting the abandonment of workfare, not conservatives (who numbers are typically high among small business owners). It seems to be the conservatives and the majority of citizens who believe workfare is important. It’s amazing how many small business owners were liberals until they became businessmen. “Mugged by reality” is the joke often attributed to the conversion.

    As for hiring people, my husband and I hired a struggling and newly recovering alcoholic for our work crew many years ago (no regrets), and after my husband’s death, I hired a man who had been in prison for a violent crime and was a recovered alcoholic to paint our home (no regrets). Both men had abandoned the destructive behavior that harmed them and became responsible men. I don’t think my experience is unique nor do I think legislating/mandating the hiring criminals, addicts, and so forth is the answer. Yet, I think workfare does help encourage people to clean up their acts and make an effort to find ways to get entry level positions where they can develop a good work record. It does help weed out abuses, but I have no answers for the hopefully tiny X% who are incorrigible.

  • Susan

    @DonS

    Kudos!

  • Susan

    @DonS

    Kudos!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I still don’t see why you think businesses are behind this. It’s the liberals who are promoting the abandonment of workfare, not conservatives (who numbers are typically high among small business owners).

    Liberals are in business, too. Anyway, businesses give tons of $$ to Obama’s campaign so they can get what they want from the administration.

    Business ≠ conservative

    Today’s conservatives are much more like the old left. They are concerned about the conditions for the productive worker aka proletariat, small business etc. The lifestyle left are a different bunch. They are big government aka crony capitalists and the voters they pay off with government freebies. Government freebies increase the velocity of money. That is the welfare class who spend every dime they get. Those who get a piece of everything bought or sold just want lots of consumers who buy, buy, buy, because they make money every time a dime changes hands. So, taxing people who would just save their money and redistributing it to those who will spend it promptly means the money is the changing hands and profits go up. This doesn’t much help small businesses that deal in necessities like roofing contractors. Either you need a roof or you don’t. You don’t just buy it because it is exciting. If you are taxed too much, you will have to buy it on some kind of credit. That is a win for big business. Get it? Moving money from productive workers to non workers down the scale ultimately means more profits at the top of the scale.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I still don’t see why you think businesses are behind this. It’s the liberals who are promoting the abandonment of workfare, not conservatives (who numbers are typically high among small business owners).

    Liberals are in business, too. Anyway, businesses give tons of $$ to Obama’s campaign so they can get what they want from the administration.

    Business ≠ conservative

    Today’s conservatives are much more like the old left. They are concerned about the conditions for the productive worker aka proletariat, small business etc. The lifestyle left are a different bunch. They are big government aka crony capitalists and the voters they pay off with government freebies. Government freebies increase the velocity of money. That is the welfare class who spend every dime they get. Those who get a piece of everything bought or sold just want lots of consumers who buy, buy, buy, because they make money every time a dime changes hands. So, taxing people who would just save their money and redistributing it to those who will spend it promptly means the money is the changing hands and profits go up. This doesn’t much help small businesses that deal in necessities like roofing contractors. Either you need a roof or you don’t. You don’t just buy it because it is exciting. If you are taxed too much, you will have to buy it on some kind of credit. That is a win for big business. Get it? Moving money from productive workers to non workers down the scale ultimately means more profits at the top of the scale.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    but I have no answers for the hopefully tiny X% who are incorrigible.

    Neither does anyone else, and that is too bad because their numbers and proportion of the population are rising because they are subsidized. So we are between a rock and a hard place. Being sensitive souls, we also don’t want to discuss it too much either. Eventually the elephant will grow so large, we will have to acknowledge him. Till then we are more comfortable kicking the can down the road and hope we die before we see the consequences we are leaving our children and grandchildren.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    but I have no answers for the hopefully tiny X% who are incorrigible.

    Neither does anyone else, and that is too bad because their numbers and proportion of the population are rising because they are subsidized. So we are between a rock and a hard place. Being sensitive souls, we also don’t want to discuss it too much either. Eventually the elephant will grow so large, we will have to acknowledge him. Till then we are more comfortable kicking the can down the road and hope we die before we see the consequences we are leaving our children and grandchildren.

  • Susan

    @sg

    I would disagree with you conditionally. I would argue that the great majority of businesses are conservative (eg: mainstreet). I would argue that a majority of those who support the liberal causes are those who will benefit financially through crony capitalism, the liberal special interest industries (eg: environmentalists, professional grievance groups, and such), or are organizations trying to protect their industry (eg: Obama’s well known Chicago political style of pay to play thuggery and favoritism – some companies give to both sides to cover their bases). I know both sides are guilty of crony capitalism, but I would like to differentiate between capitalism and crony capitalism. I don’t believe they are the same thing and I don’t think most businesses participate in it. And now there is the Chicago style politics added to what was already problematic and seems to have increased the toxics in D.C. exponentially.

    One regulatory problem I see with welfare is that they are penalized if they save money so they can get off welfare – thus an incentive to spend every dime and a latent consequence in the regulations. And like you, I do see the insanity. I met a single woman with three children a few years ago who epitomizes why so many of us want to see workfare. Look at Jane’s life – these things came at no cost to her:

    1) She lives off government welfare benefits for housing and food stamps
    2) She bought a house with zero down through a government program
    3) She had new windows and insulation put in this house through a government program
    4) She has a free cell phone and free phone service
    4) She put a new pool in her back yard and I have no idea how she paid for it

  • Susan

    @sg

    I would disagree with you conditionally. I would argue that the great majority of businesses are conservative (eg: mainstreet). I would argue that a majority of those who support the liberal causes are those who will benefit financially through crony capitalism, the liberal special interest industries (eg: environmentalists, professional grievance groups, and such), or are organizations trying to protect their industry (eg: Obama’s well known Chicago political style of pay to play thuggery and favoritism – some companies give to both sides to cover their bases). I know both sides are guilty of crony capitalism, but I would like to differentiate between capitalism and crony capitalism. I don’t believe they are the same thing and I don’t think most businesses participate in it. And now there is the Chicago style politics added to what was already problematic and seems to have increased the toxics in D.C. exponentially.

    One regulatory problem I see with welfare is that they are penalized if they save money so they can get off welfare – thus an incentive to spend every dime and a latent consequence in the regulations. And like you, I do see the insanity. I met a single woman with three children a few years ago who epitomizes why so many of us want to see workfare. Look at Jane’s life – these things came at no cost to her:

    1) She lives off government welfare benefits for housing and food stamps
    2) She bought a house with zero down through a government program
    3) She had new windows and insulation put in this house through a government program
    4) She has a free cell phone and free phone service
    4) She put a new pool in her back yard and I have no idea how she paid for it

  • Jim_777

    I agree with both of Mr. Veith’s hypotheticals. The income tax itself is an abomination. It was promised that it would never exceed 1% of the income of the highest income earners. Of course and obviously, the gov’t quickly memory-holed that pledge. Now liberals opening claim that all income belongs to the gov’t and thinks that we should be grateful for any amount it allows us to keep. Clearly, the income tax, like the property tax (another grotesquery), is here to stay. Therefore, everyone should have to kick in some amount of income tax. I believe everyone should pay the same percentage of their income. To be honest, I don’t think that people who contribute nothing should even be allowed to vote. It isn’t right that those who contribute large sums should be at the electoral mercy of the ever growing horde of freeloaders. Probably not a popular view, but, hey, it’s honest!

  • Jim_777

    I agree with both of Mr. Veith’s hypotheticals. The income tax itself is an abomination. It was promised that it would never exceed 1% of the income of the highest income earners. Of course and obviously, the gov’t quickly memory-holed that pledge. Now liberals opening claim that all income belongs to the gov’t and thinks that we should be grateful for any amount it allows us to keep. Clearly, the income tax, like the property tax (another grotesquery), is here to stay. Therefore, everyone should have to kick in some amount of income tax. I believe everyone should pay the same percentage of their income. To be honest, I don’t think that people who contribute nothing should even be allowed to vote. It isn’t right that those who contribute large sums should be at the electoral mercy of the ever growing horde of freeloaders. Probably not a popular view, but, hey, it’s honest!

  • Susan

    @sg

    Re: sensitive souls..

    I think that’s part of the beauty in Romney’s 47% comment. People are finally talking about the elephant in the room. Both Romney and Ryan are trying to get the American people to face the challenges while the Obama campaign and it’s msm arm are doing all they can to distract, deflect, and peddle more centralized government under their messiah. I’m tempted to carry a box of napkins with me and stuff one in people’s mouths when they repeat the propaganda that we should look to government to save us from every vicissitude in life.

  • Susan

    @sg

    Re: sensitive souls..

    I think that’s part of the beauty in Romney’s 47% comment. People are finally talking about the elephant in the room. Both Romney and Ryan are trying to get the American people to face the challenges while the Obama campaign and it’s msm arm are doing all they can to distract, deflect, and peddle more centralized government under their messiah. I’m tempted to carry a box of napkins with me and stuff one in people’s mouths when they repeat the propaganda that we should look to government to save us from every vicissitude in life.

  • Jim_777

    Susan, the thing that always amazes me is that there are so many adults who seem to actually believe that the gov’t is even able to save us from life’s disasters. People who believe that must have had vastly different encounters with the gov’t than I have. It might be true that local gov’t is able to effectively address specific local issues, but the federal leviathan is a bloated, inefficient, stupid, clumsy, and useless monstrosity. I would mush rather rely on myself, my family, and my church family in times of struggle.

  • Jim_777

    Susan, the thing that always amazes me is that there are so many adults who seem to actually believe that the gov’t is even able to save us from life’s disasters. People who believe that must have had vastly different encounters with the gov’t than I have. It might be true that local gov’t is able to effectively address specific local issues, but the federal leviathan is a bloated, inefficient, stupid, clumsy, and useless monstrosity. I would mush rather rely on myself, my family, and my church family in times of struggle.

  • Susan

    @Jim_777

    So true. I wish we could get back to the government safety nets being a last resort, but when I look at how heavily propagandized the generations are that follow my generation, I am stunned. There are a long line of programs that mainstreamed feminism, sexual liberation, divorce, abortion, and so forth over the last 50 years. Jake Tapper noted how the MSM helped Obama beat Clinton, and then McCain. Now we are watching them trash/smear/discredit a man with a stellar business record and squeaky clean personal life. Go figure. It would be great fun if Romney wins and puts efficiency experts in charge of all of the government departments – closing some, consolidating others, and scouring the waste out of them, and putting other programs back into the state’s hands where citizens are better able to monitor elected officials. Let the liberal states bankrupt themselves at their own expense if that’s what they really want. Ah… dreams are free. ;)

  • Susan

    @Jim_777

    So true. I wish we could get back to the government safety nets being a last resort, but when I look at how heavily propagandized the generations are that follow my generation, I am stunned. There are a long line of programs that mainstreamed feminism, sexual liberation, divorce, abortion, and so forth over the last 50 years. Jake Tapper noted how the MSM helped Obama beat Clinton, and then McCain. Now we are watching them trash/smear/discredit a man with a stellar business record and squeaky clean personal life. Go figure. It would be great fun if Romney wins and puts efficiency experts in charge of all of the government departments – closing some, consolidating others, and scouring the waste out of them, and putting other programs back into the state’s hands where citizens are better able to monitor elected officials. Let the liberal states bankrupt themselves at their own expense if that’s what they really want. Ah… dreams are free. ;)

  • Jim_777

    Another bizarre thing about this election is the criticism heaped on Romeny for his wealth the absolute silence over Obama’s. While it’s true that Romeny is much richer than the President (right now, just wait for the post-presidency cash-in!), Obama’s tax returns demonstrate a clear attempt to lower his tax liability to the legal minimum. This is of course the correct thing to do. But the hypocrisy is staggering. Virtually every Democrat bigwig (Reid, Pelosi, Kerry, etc., etc.) is vastly wealthy, but liberals couldn’t care less. I guess my question is: do rank and file Democrats just willfully ignore these kinds of things? Do they have any actual values or bedrock beliefs or is everything just about beating the hated GOP? For example, how do Democrat women square their own supposed “feminism” with their wild, almost deranged support of a man like Clinton, who has abused and degraded women his entire life? Or worse, a loathsome degenerate liked Ted Kennedy, who actually valued his own political aspirations over a woman’s life? I don’t get it.

  • Jim_777

    Another bizarre thing about this election is the criticism heaped on Romeny for his wealth the absolute silence over Obama’s. While it’s true that Romeny is much richer than the President (right now, just wait for the post-presidency cash-in!), Obama’s tax returns demonstrate a clear attempt to lower his tax liability to the legal minimum. This is of course the correct thing to do. But the hypocrisy is staggering. Virtually every Democrat bigwig (Reid, Pelosi, Kerry, etc., etc.) is vastly wealthy, but liberals couldn’t care less. I guess my question is: do rank and file Democrats just willfully ignore these kinds of things? Do they have any actual values or bedrock beliefs or is everything just about beating the hated GOP? For example, how do Democrat women square their own supposed “feminism” with their wild, almost deranged support of a man like Clinton, who has abused and degraded women his entire life? Or worse, a loathsome degenerate liked Ted Kennedy, who actually valued his own political aspirations over a woman’s life? I don’t get it.

  • fjsteve

    Tom, #6, one might wonder why you didn’t say “the talk was given at the home of a fundraiser known for successful private equities firm and personal philanthropy.” But that person would probably be very new to this blog.

  • fjsteve

    Tom, #6, one might wonder why you didn’t say “the talk was given at the home of a fundraiser known for successful private equities firm and personal philanthropy.” But that person would probably be very new to this blog.

  • fjsteve

    Susan, #42, I have to disagree. I still don’t hear very many people talking about the elephant in the room, even after Gov. Romney introduced him. His name may have as well been Harvey.

  • fjsteve

    Susan, #42, I have to disagree. I still don’t hear very many people talking about the elephant in the room, even after Gov. Romney introduced him. His name may have as well been Harvey.

  • Susan

    @Jim_777

    You’re right. They keep lowering the standards for themselves and seem to have moved from double standards to triple standards. As I watch what is happening, I’m not convinced it’s appropriate to call them liberals anymore. Progressive vipers, perhaps? All I know is that they seem to have left all sense of decency and propriety far behind them in their quest/will for power.

  • Susan

    @Jim_777

    You’re right. They keep lowering the standards for themselves and seem to have moved from double standards to triple standards. As I watch what is happening, I’m not convinced it’s appropriate to call them liberals anymore. Progressive vipers, perhaps? All I know is that they seem to have left all sense of decency and propriety far behind them in their quest/will for power.

  • Susan

    @fjsteve

    I do hope you are wrong. But, now that you mention it, I have found people do talk if I’m the first one to speak about it. Do you suppose there is a generally cowed attitude that thinks it best to keep silent for the most part? I live in Texas which is a fairly red state, but one sees almost no election bumper stickers or yard signs for either party. Last week, I was driving though an upper middle class neighborhood and noticed home after home had an identical US flag on identical poles planted in their front yard. I stress, they were all identical. This neighborhood is enormous, so out of curiosity, I started slowly driving all the side streets in the neighborhood. I saw one Romney sign. All of the rest had the flags planted. I’m not sure if people are concerned about retaliation or what in this election, but it is odd and I do blame the Democrats for the poisonous atmosphere (eg: opposition = racist, bigot, etc).

  • Susan

    @fjsteve

    I do hope you are wrong. But, now that you mention it, I have found people do talk if I’m the first one to speak about it. Do you suppose there is a generally cowed attitude that thinks it best to keep silent for the most part? I live in Texas which is a fairly red state, but one sees almost no election bumper stickers or yard signs for either party. Last week, I was driving though an upper middle class neighborhood and noticed home after home had an identical US flag on identical poles planted in their front yard. I stress, they were all identical. This neighborhood is enormous, so out of curiosity, I started slowly driving all the side streets in the neighborhood. I saw one Romney sign. All of the rest had the flags planted. I’m not sure if people are concerned about retaliation or what in this election, but it is odd and I do blame the Democrats for the poisonous atmosphere (eg: opposition = racist, bigot, etc).

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Last week, I was driving though an upper middle class neighborhood and noticed home after home had an identical US flag on identical poles planted in their front yard.

    Boy scout fundraiser. They will put up and take down the flags 4-5 times a year on specific federal holidays.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Last week, I was driving though an upper middle class neighborhood and noticed home after home had an identical US flag on identical poles planted in their front yard.

    Boy scout fundraiser. They will put up and take down the flags 4-5 times a year on specific federal holidays.

  • fjsteve

    By the way, Susan, Jane probably got her pool by refinancing through one of the government programs designed to help distressed mortgage holders.

  • fjsteve

    By the way, Susan, Jane probably got her pool by refinancing through one of the government programs designed to help distressed mortgage holders.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Susan @ 40

    I agree with everything in your first paragraph, Susan. So, I am not sure why you think I wouldn’t. Maybe it is the point about most businesses. Well, most businesses aren’t that big and can’t much influence the way they are regulated. Big businesses as you noted are the only ones that can be crony capitalists. That doesn’t mean they all are, just that they are pretty much the only ones who can be. Some of them donate to politicians including democrats so they get the regulations that make them the most $$$. Smart crony capitalists give to both sides of the aisle.

    Just to state the obvious, capital is not doing well. I am sure we have all noticed that banks are paying less than 1% on deposits. Productivity pays. Finance pays well but I wouldn’t really call that capital, or is it? What do you think?

    Sounds like your Jane has low future time orientation. Live for now, don’t worry about later. That is a good fit for a welfare scammer. Honestly, most welfare folks are not like Jane. They aren’t competent enough to glean that many goodies from the system. The work requirement is generally a good idea for at least a majority of the people. And the majority don’t stay on welfare. Still that leaves a lot who do, and intractably so.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Susan @ 40

    I agree with everything in your first paragraph, Susan. So, I am not sure why you think I wouldn’t. Maybe it is the point about most businesses. Well, most businesses aren’t that big and can’t much influence the way they are regulated. Big businesses as you noted are the only ones that can be crony capitalists. That doesn’t mean they all are, just that they are pretty much the only ones who can be. Some of them donate to politicians including democrats so they get the regulations that make them the most $$$. Smart crony capitalists give to both sides of the aisle.

    Just to state the obvious, capital is not doing well. I am sure we have all noticed that banks are paying less than 1% on deposits. Productivity pays. Finance pays well but I wouldn’t really call that capital, or is it? What do you think?

    Sounds like your Jane has low future time orientation. Live for now, don’t worry about later. That is a good fit for a welfare scammer. Honestly, most welfare folks are not like Jane. They aren’t competent enough to glean that many goodies from the system. The work requirement is generally a good idea for at least a majority of the people. And the majority don’t stay on welfare. Still that leaves a lot who do, and intractably so.

  • Susan

    Thanks, sg.

  • Susan

    Thanks, sg.

  • fjsteve

    Susan, the problem, I think, is that the number of people who pay no federal income taxes is so large that a good number of people don’t want to say anything because its likely that they, or someone very close to them, falls into that group. And the more that number grows the less likely there will be people to speak out about it.

  • fjsteve

    Susan, the problem, I think, is that the number of people who pay no federal income taxes is so large that a good number of people don’t want to say anything because its likely that they, or someone very close to them, falls into that group. And the more that number grows the less likely there will be people to speak out about it.

  • Jim_777

    I realize that people who pay no income tax do pay taxes in other forms, sales tax, maybe property tax, Social Security tax (although that’s not really a tax), and so on. But why should such a small portion of the productive class of this society shoulder the vast majority of the income tax burden? Everyone can contribute something. If everyone paid the same percentage, then rich people would still pay far more in actual dollars than the sainted poor. The whole spectacle of greedy, lazy, entitled freeloaders angrily demanding more of other people’s stuff is disgusting. What the hell happened to people being content with their lives? I’m not a rich person, but I’m damn grateful to God that my wife, my daughter, and I have a comfortable place to live, plenty of food, clothing, transportation, cable, and everything else. People in this nation enjoy material comforts unheard of in human history, yet we still have millions of people who are furious that someone might have a bigger tv or a nicer house. It’s pathetic.

  • Jim_777

    I realize that people who pay no income tax do pay taxes in other forms, sales tax, maybe property tax, Social Security tax (although that’s not really a tax), and so on. But why should such a small portion of the productive class of this society shoulder the vast majority of the income tax burden? Everyone can contribute something. If everyone paid the same percentage, then rich people would still pay far more in actual dollars than the sainted poor. The whole spectacle of greedy, lazy, entitled freeloaders angrily demanding more of other people’s stuff is disgusting. What the hell happened to people being content with their lives? I’m not a rich person, but I’m damn grateful to God that my wife, my daughter, and I have a comfortable place to live, plenty of food, clothing, transportation, cable, and everything else. People in this nation enjoy material comforts unheard of in human history, yet we still have millions of people who are furious that someone might have a bigger tv or a nicer house. It’s pathetic.

  • DonS

    Jim @ 55: It’s a bit of a canard to claim that those who pay no federal income taxes pay taxes in other forms. Because they don’t, at the federal level. Payroll taxes shouldn’t count — they are directly tied to entitlement to future benefits, and for those having lower income those benefits will most certainly exceed taxes paid except for those unfortunate enough to die prematurely. They were sold to the public as insurance premiums, and that is how they should be regarded. The other taxes you cite — sales and property taxes — are state or local taxes.

  • DonS

    Jim @ 55: It’s a bit of a canard to claim that those who pay no federal income taxes pay taxes in other forms. Because they don’t, at the federal level. Payroll taxes shouldn’t count — they are directly tied to entitlement to future benefits, and for those having lower income those benefits will most certainly exceed taxes paid except for those unfortunate enough to die prematurely. They were sold to the public as insurance premiums, and that is how they should be regarded. The other taxes you cite — sales and property taxes — are state or local taxes.

  • Jim_777

    DonS@56:

    I didn’t restrict my comment to federal taxes. I said that people who pay no federal income tax usually pay taxes in some other form. That’s true. As far as I know, everyone has paid or will pay sales tax at some time in their lives. Many people pay property tax. I also said that Social Security tax isn’t really a tax, though many people consider it one. So it’s not a “canard.” It’s a fact that people who pay no federal income tax often pay taxes in other forms, likely at least sales tax. But thanks for the lecture!

  • Jim_777

    DonS@56:

    I didn’t restrict my comment to federal taxes. I said that people who pay no federal income tax usually pay taxes in some other form. That’s true. As far as I know, everyone has paid or will pay sales tax at some time in their lives. Many people pay property tax. I also said that Social Security tax isn’t really a tax, though many people consider it one. So it’s not a “canard.” It’s a fact that people who pay no federal income tax often pay taxes in other forms, likely at least sales tax. But thanks for the lecture!

  • DonS

    Jim @ 57: I wasn’t lecturing you. When I spoke of a canard, I was speaking of the left’s tendency to reference payroll taxes as evidence that everyone has “skin in the game”. Which they clearly don’t. I was clarifying a point with a fellow commenter with whom I am in substantial agreement.

    I’m sorry you took it the wrong way.

  • DonS

    Jim @ 57: I wasn’t lecturing you. When I spoke of a canard, I was speaking of the left’s tendency to reference payroll taxes as evidence that everyone has “skin in the game”. Which they clearly don’t. I was clarifying a point with a fellow commenter with whom I am in substantial agreement.

    I’m sorry you took it the wrong way.

  • Susan

    @sg

    I’m sorry I misunderstood your position. I may be all wet, but I tend think the larger portion of all businesses, including a large number of the giants, tend more towards good business practices rather than crony capitalism. As you well know, it depends on the management team if they tend more straight-arrow or not, but I do think there has been a general lowering of standards across the board over the last decades and have wondered how much of the lowering of standards is due to our eroding culture. A general tiredness in trying to consistently go against the flow in many cases?

    I wish I better understood what is going on economically. What I do understand is that the Feds are continually manipulating a lot of things and Obama even stated in an early interview that his plan was to continue to throw things at it until something finally sticks. Do you remember when under duress Geithner finally admitted to a congressional hearing that “no, they didn’t have a plan and didn’t know what to do? But they did know they didn’t like the R plan?” A couple of current examples: Obama is using our national gasoline reserves to artificially lower the price of gasoline pre-election. They keep artifically lowering the interest rates along with continuing the proven failure of Keynsian spending plans (is it rocket science to not spend more than you have and save what you can for a rainy day? I would point out that some states, like Texas, have rainy day savings for emergencies) Bernanke’s latest moonbattery is now to buy $40 billion in mortgage backed securities per month (QE3). The reports I’ve read about QE3 are not encouraging.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/09/bernankes-quantitative-easing-qe3-a-policy-predicated-on-irrational-behavior

    http://www.aei.org/article/economics/monetary-policy/bernanke-goes-to-war

    My impression has been that Obama thinks the US is a golden goose with never ending golden eggs which can be used to fulfill every progressive dream and he thinks he can defy history and even take the golden eggs in utero without killing the goose.

    P.S. We used to call people like Jane: Welfare Queens. But that’s racist and bigoted plus downright mean and uncompassionate even though she is white.

  • Susan

    @sg

    I’m sorry I misunderstood your position. I may be all wet, but I tend think the larger portion of all businesses, including a large number of the giants, tend more towards good business practices rather than crony capitalism. As you well know, it depends on the management team if they tend more straight-arrow or not, but I do think there has been a general lowering of standards across the board over the last decades and have wondered how much of the lowering of standards is due to our eroding culture. A general tiredness in trying to consistently go against the flow in many cases?

    I wish I better understood what is going on economically. What I do understand is that the Feds are continually manipulating a lot of things and Obama even stated in an early interview that his plan was to continue to throw things at it until something finally sticks. Do you remember when under duress Geithner finally admitted to a congressional hearing that “no, they didn’t have a plan and didn’t know what to do? But they did know they didn’t like the R plan?” A couple of current examples: Obama is using our national gasoline reserves to artificially lower the price of gasoline pre-election. They keep artifically lowering the interest rates along with continuing the proven failure of Keynsian spending plans (is it rocket science to not spend more than you have and save what you can for a rainy day? I would point out that some states, like Texas, have rainy day savings for emergencies) Bernanke’s latest moonbattery is now to buy $40 billion in mortgage backed securities per month (QE3). The reports I’ve read about QE3 are not encouraging.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/09/bernankes-quantitative-easing-qe3-a-policy-predicated-on-irrational-behavior

    http://www.aei.org/article/economics/monetary-policy/bernanke-goes-to-war

    My impression has been that Obama thinks the US is a golden goose with never ending golden eggs which can be used to fulfill every progressive dream and he thinks he can defy history and even take the golden eggs in utero without killing the goose.

    P.S. We used to call people like Jane: Welfare Queens. But that’s racist and bigoted plus downright mean and uncompassionate even though she is white.

  • Michael B.

    @sg@21

    “If I had no money and no insurance and fell ill, I would work out a payment plan with the provider”

    I reminded of the scene in Dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey has spent all the ransom money on frivolous purchases, but has carefully replaced the cash in the briefcase with I-owe-you’s, and is confronted at gun-point by the kidnapper:

    Lloyd: Listen, bout the briefcase, my friend Harry and I have every intention of fully reimbursing you.
    Kidnapper: Open it up. Open it up!
    Lloyd: [Motioning to Mary] Go ahead, open it up. Do what he says. Hurry.
    Kidnapper: What is this? What is this? Where’s all the money?
    Lloyd: That’s as good as money, sir. Those are I.O.U.’s. Go ahead and add it up, every cent’s accounted for. Look, see this? (holding up an i-owe-you paper) That’s a car. 275 thou. Might wanna hang onto that one.

    Sg, medical bills sometimes run into the 6-figures. What’s more, they won’t even qualify for the discounted interest rates that housing and education sometimes qualifies. What bank would want to loan somebody who has no money (and may be unable to work) a hundred thousand dollars?

  • Michael B.

    @sg@21

    “If I had no money and no insurance and fell ill, I would work out a payment plan with the provider”

    I reminded of the scene in Dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey has spent all the ransom money on frivolous purchases, but has carefully replaced the cash in the briefcase with I-owe-you’s, and is confronted at gun-point by the kidnapper:

    Lloyd: Listen, bout the briefcase, my friend Harry and I have every intention of fully reimbursing you.
    Kidnapper: Open it up. Open it up!
    Lloyd: [Motioning to Mary] Go ahead, open it up. Do what he says. Hurry.
    Kidnapper: What is this? What is this? Where’s all the money?
    Lloyd: That’s as good as money, sir. Those are I.O.U.’s. Go ahead and add it up, every cent’s accounted for. Look, see this? (holding up an i-owe-you paper) That’s a car. 275 thou. Might wanna hang onto that one.

    Sg, medical bills sometimes run into the 6-figures. What’s more, they won’t even qualify for the discounted interest rates that housing and education sometimes qualifies. What bank would want to loan somebody who has no money (and may be unable to work) a hundred thousand dollars?

  • Michael B.

    @Jim_777

    “The whole spectacle of greedy, lazy, entitled freeloaders angrily demanding more of other people’s stuff is disgusting. What the hell happened to people being content with their lives”

    People are being greedy or unfairly discontent if they are upset about their kids not having proper health care.

    “If everyone paid the same percentage, then rich people would still pay far more in actual dollars than the sainted poor. ”

    So are you advocating a flat tax rate? In other words, a guy who can barely support his family should pay the same portion of his income as a guy who has 2 luxury yachts?

  • Michael B.

    @Jim_777

    “The whole spectacle of greedy, lazy, entitled freeloaders angrily demanding more of other people’s stuff is disgusting. What the hell happened to people being content with their lives”

    People are being greedy or unfairly discontent if they are upset about their kids not having proper health care.

    “If everyone paid the same percentage, then rich people would still pay far more in actual dollars than the sainted poor. ”

    So are you advocating a flat tax rate? In other words, a guy who can barely support his family should pay the same portion of his income as a guy who has 2 luxury yachts?

  • Jim_777

    Michael B @ 61

    Being poor doesn’t entitle a person to demand other people’s property. And let’s be serious, we live in a country where the poorest people are the fattest. The average “poor” person in America lives extremely well. While I support a safety net for those who unable to care for themselves or who have fallen into dire circumstances, the idea that we are a nation overrun with starving, disease-infested waifs is the stuff of liberal fantasy, not reality. We have created a permanent underclass of people who believe that “the rich” should be required to care for them and support them. And you cut it out with the lame class warfare rhetoric. Progressive taxation falls most heavily on income, not wealth. Your proverbial rich guy with the two luxury yachts doesn’t pay income tax, he primarily pays tax on his investment income. I know that liberals have come to believe that every debate can be won by a naked appeal to emotion (“what about the children!?”), but that doesn’t work with me. Try forming an actual argument based on fact, not pathetic attempts to guilt people into agreeing with you.

  • Jim_777

    Michael B @ 61

    Being poor doesn’t entitle a person to demand other people’s property. And let’s be serious, we live in a country where the poorest people are the fattest. The average “poor” person in America lives extremely well. While I support a safety net for those who unable to care for themselves or who have fallen into dire circumstances, the idea that we are a nation overrun with starving, disease-infested waifs is the stuff of liberal fantasy, not reality. We have created a permanent underclass of people who believe that “the rich” should be required to care for them and support them. And you cut it out with the lame class warfare rhetoric. Progressive taxation falls most heavily on income, not wealth. Your proverbial rich guy with the two luxury yachts doesn’t pay income tax, he primarily pays tax on his investment income. I know that liberals have come to believe that every debate can be won by a naked appeal to emotion (“what about the children!?”), but that doesn’t work with me. Try forming an actual argument based on fact, not pathetic attempts to guilt people into agreeing with you.

  • fjsteve

    #61

    “So are you advocating a flat tax rate? In other words, a guy who can barely support his family should pay the same portion of his income as a guy who has 2 luxury yachts?”

    I love this. It’s all about the dirt poor against the filthy rich. What about the family who makes a combined $251K per year with an effective tax rate of over 22%, putting two kids through state college, live in roughly the same neighborhoods, drive on the same highways, kids went to the same schools as the family who not only pays no federal income tax but who probably makes use of far more federal programs?

    That’s the real comparison that happens far more often but which the media refuses to acknowledge.

  • fjsteve

    #61

    “So are you advocating a flat tax rate? In other words, a guy who can barely support his family should pay the same portion of his income as a guy who has 2 luxury yachts?”

    I love this. It’s all about the dirt poor against the filthy rich. What about the family who makes a combined $251K per year with an effective tax rate of over 22%, putting two kids through state college, live in roughly the same neighborhoods, drive on the same highways, kids went to the same schools as the family who not only pays no federal income tax but who probably makes use of far more federal programs?

    That’s the real comparison that happens far more often but which the media refuses to acknowledge.

  • Grace

    Jim_777 @55 “People in this nation enjoy material comforts unheard of in human history, yet we still have millions of people who are furious that someone might have a bigger tv or a nicer house. It’s pathetic.”

    Jim stated it above, and it’s true. It’s all about everyone having the same EVERYTHING. Spreading the wealth, so as not to disturb the individual who didn’t work hard enough, take advantage of his education, blames the schools, parents, area he lives in, as the reason for an UN-SUCCESSFUL life.

    NEWSMAX
    Tuesday, 18 Sep 2012 05:20 PM

    By Paul Scicchitano

    “An audio recording of President Barack Obama surfaced on social media Tuesday in which the president can be clearly heard telling a Loyola University audience in 1998 that he believes in the “redistribution” of wealth in America, something that his critics have long charged.

    I think the trick is figuring out how do we structure government systems that pool resources and hence facilitate some redistribution because I actually believe in redistribution — at least at a certain level to make sure that everybody’s got a shot,” Obama can be heard saying.”

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obama-redistribution-loyola-speech/2012/09/18/id/456677

    Redistribution of wealth”?

  • Grace

    Jim_777 @55 “People in this nation enjoy material comforts unheard of in human history, yet we still have millions of people who are furious that someone might have a bigger tv or a nicer house. It’s pathetic.”

    Jim stated it above, and it’s true. It’s all about everyone having the same EVERYTHING. Spreading the wealth, so as not to disturb the individual who didn’t work hard enough, take advantage of his education, blames the schools, parents, area he lives in, as the reason for an UN-SUCCESSFUL life.

    NEWSMAX
    Tuesday, 18 Sep 2012 05:20 PM

    By Paul Scicchitano

    “An audio recording of President Barack Obama surfaced on social media Tuesday in which the president can be clearly heard telling a Loyola University audience in 1998 that he believes in the “redistribution” of wealth in America, something that his critics have long charged.

    I think the trick is figuring out how do we structure government systems that pool resources and hence facilitate some redistribution because I actually believe in redistribution — at least at a certain level to make sure that everybody’s got a shot,” Obama can be heard saying.”

    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/obama-redistribution-loyola-speech/2012/09/18/id/456677

    Redistribution of wealth”?

  • Susan

    @Grace

    Another disturbing thing in the Obama speech is where he talks about how he would like to organize welfare recipients into a voting bloc and harness their power. He is certainly a slice and dice politician wanting to divide everyone into special interest groups and pit them against each other rather than one who is interested in a melting pot of a United States of America.

  • Susan

    @Grace

    Another disturbing thing in the Obama speech is where he talks about how he would like to organize welfare recipients into a voting bloc and harness their power. He is certainly a slice and dice politician wanting to divide everyone into special interest groups and pit them against each other rather than one who is interested in a melting pot of a United States of America.

  • Michael B.

    @Jim_777@62

    “I support a safety net for those who unable to care for themselves or who have fallen into dire circumstances”

    If you meant this, you should know it’s a liberal position. By definition, young children are unable to care for themselves. And certainly a safety net would include health care, housing, and food. Are you saying money should make taken from other people to support these children in need?

  • Michael B.

    @Jim_777@62

    “I support a safety net for those who unable to care for themselves or who have fallen into dire circumstances”

    If you meant this, you should know it’s a liberal position. By definition, young children are unable to care for themselves. And certainly a safety net would include health care, housing, and food. Are you saying money should make taken from other people to support these children in need?

  • Jon

    Yes, Michael B. everyone should have skin in the game. Pay to play, I say. Put up or shut up. And it should be the same percentage for everyone–that’s fairness. And I also believe in a safety net, but not a permanent way of life welfare. And families should be held responsible for their indigent members–not the state. It used to be that churches cared for the orphan children you describe–they would see to it that they were adopted out to Christian families. The state should just be there to protect you from the invaders and the robbers–full stop.

  • Jon

    Yes, Michael B. everyone should have skin in the game. Pay to play, I say. Put up or shut up. And it should be the same percentage for everyone–that’s fairness. And I also believe in a safety net, but not a permanent way of life welfare. And families should be held responsible for their indigent members–not the state. It used to be that churches cared for the orphan children you describe–they would see to it that they were adopted out to Christian families. The state should just be there to protect you from the invaders and the robbers–full stop.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sg, medical bills sometimes run into the 6-figures. What’s more, they won’t even qualify for the discounted interest rates that housing and education sometimes qualifies. What bank would want to loan somebody who has no money (and may be unable to work) a hundred thousand dollars?

    Sheesh, talk about a comeback that makes no sense. Any illness that would run into the 6 figures would be covered under the EMLATA law. I am not talking about a bank loan. I am talking about paying the doctor, hospital, etc. They send a bill for the service and I would pay it. If I couldn’t pay it all, I would talk to their offices and work out how much I could pay. Duh. It is just like any other bill. Also, I could sell some stuff to pay the bill. Beyond that there is bankruptcy if necessary. My relations who lost 5 children in one week to diphtheria would have loved to have traded everything they owned, which was a lot, to have their children live. The junk you have is not worth your life and if that is what it costs, well, it beats the alternative.

    Anyway, that insurance makes little difference because insurance can refuse to pay as well, but the insurer still gets his money whether or not I get treatment. The health care act is really just a tax to force people to pay insurance companies. That is it. Got that?

    It does not increase access. It does not ensure treatment. It just mandates that everyone cough up cash in advance to pay insurance companies.

    Insurance does not guarantee treatment. Got that?

    Lack of insurance does not equal no access to treatment. Got that?

    Man, you can’t be that dense.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Sg, medical bills sometimes run into the 6-figures. What’s more, they won’t even qualify for the discounted interest rates that housing and education sometimes qualifies. What bank would want to loan somebody who has no money (and may be unable to work) a hundred thousand dollars?

    Sheesh, talk about a comeback that makes no sense. Any illness that would run into the 6 figures would be covered under the EMLATA law. I am not talking about a bank loan. I am talking about paying the doctor, hospital, etc. They send a bill for the service and I would pay it. If I couldn’t pay it all, I would talk to their offices and work out how much I could pay. Duh. It is just like any other bill. Also, I could sell some stuff to pay the bill. Beyond that there is bankruptcy if necessary. My relations who lost 5 children in one week to diphtheria would have loved to have traded everything they owned, which was a lot, to have their children live. The junk you have is not worth your life and if that is what it costs, well, it beats the alternative.

    Anyway, that insurance makes little difference because insurance can refuse to pay as well, but the insurer still gets his money whether or not I get treatment. The health care act is really just a tax to force people to pay insurance companies. That is it. Got that?

    It does not increase access. It does not ensure treatment. It just mandates that everyone cough up cash in advance to pay insurance companies.

    Insurance does not guarantee treatment. Got that?

    Lack of insurance does not equal no access to treatment. Got that?

    Man, you can’t be that dense.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    aaaaaaahh, another formatting error!!!

    sorry

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    aaaaaaahh, another formatting error!!!

    sorry

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you meant this, you should know it’s a liberal position.

    So what?

    Like if they agree with that position they then have to agree with every other idea that has been tagged liberal? Plenty of completely illiberal ideas have been tagged liberal. Like, oh, abortion, gay marriage, amnesty, mandatory purchase of insurance.
    Nothing liberal about those ideas.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you meant this, you should know it’s a liberal position.

    So what?

    Like if they agree with that position they then have to agree with every other idea that has been tagged liberal? Plenty of completely illiberal ideas have been tagged liberal. Like, oh, abortion, gay marriage, amnesty, mandatory purchase of insurance.
    Nothing liberal about those ideas.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “People are being greedy or unfairly discontent if they are upset about their kids not having proper health care.”

    Yes. Why should anyone else be responsible for your kids? You made them. You take care of them. It is your fault they don’t have what they need, and you should be ashamed of asking for help. If there is anyone kind enough to help them despite your despicable negligence, then you should be grateful for the help and do your level best to repay them at whatever personal cost to you.

    Got that?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “People are being greedy or unfairly discontent if they are upset about their kids not having proper health care.”

    Yes. Why should anyone else be responsible for your kids? You made them. You take care of them. It is your fault they don’t have what they need, and you should be ashamed of asking for help. If there is anyone kind enough to help them despite your despicable negligence, then you should be grateful for the help and do your level best to repay them at whatever personal cost to you.

    Got that?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    There is no shortage of kind helpful folks.

    There is a vast shortage of gratitude.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    There is no shortage of kind helpful folks.

    There is a vast shortage of gratitude.

  • Grace

    Susan @65

    You commented regarding “welfare recipients” –

    This was written by a 21 yr old female who gets it.

    This was in the Waco Tribune Herald, Waco , TX , Nov 18, 2011

    PUT ME IN CHARGE . . .

    Put me in charge of food stamps. I’d get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho’s, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.

    Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks? You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your home” will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your own place.

    In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or you will report to a “government” job. It may be cleaning the roadways of trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo and speakers and put that money toward the “common good..”

    Before you write that I’ve violated someone’s rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules. Before you say that this would be “demeaning” and ruin their “self-esteem,” consider that it wasn’t that long ago that taking someone else’s money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self-esteem.

    If we are expected to pay for other people’s mistakes we should at least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

    AND While you are on Gov’t subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes, that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Gov’t welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job.

  • Grace

    Susan @65

    You commented regarding “welfare recipients” –

    This was written by a 21 yr old female who gets it.

    This was in the Waco Tribune Herald, Waco , TX , Nov 18, 2011

    PUT ME IN CHARGE . . .

    Put me in charge of food stamps. I’d get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho’s, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.

    Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks? You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your home” will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your own place.

    In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or you will report to a “government” job. It may be cleaning the roadways of trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo and speakers and put that money toward the “common good..”

    Before you write that I’ve violated someone’s rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules. Before you say that this would be “demeaning” and ruin their “self-esteem,” consider that it wasn’t that long ago that taking someone else’s money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self-esteem.

    If we are expected to pay for other people’s mistakes we should at least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

    AND While you are on Gov’t subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes, that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Gov’t welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job.

  • Susan

    @Grace

    Whew… lotsa tough love there.

    Today, I got this from my cousin:

    “I’m 70 and I’m Tired”
    By Robert A.. Hall

    I’m 70. Except for having 4 children with only a 6 week maternity period , I’ve worked, hard, since I was 17. Despite some health challenges, I still put in 50-hour weeks, and seldom called in sick in seven or eight years. I made a good salary, but I didn’t inherit my job or my income, and I worked to get where I am. Given the economy, retirement is hard, and I’m tired. Very tired.

    I’m tired of being told that I have to “spread the wealth” to people who don’t have my work ethic. I’m tired of being told the government will take the money I earned, by force if necessary, and give it to people too lazy to earn it.

    I’m tired of being told that Islam is a “Religion of Peace,” when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family “honor”; of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren’t “believers”; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for “adultery”; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur’an and Shari’a law tells them to.

    I’m tired of being told that out of “tolerance for other cultures” we must let Saudi Arabia use our oil money to fund mosques and mandrassa Islamic schools to preach hate in America and Canada , while no American nor Canadian group nor Australia is allowed to fund a church, synagogue or religious school in Saudi Arabia to teach love and tolerance.

    I’m tired of being told I must lower my living standard to fight global warming, which no one is allowed to debate.

    I’m tired of being told that drug addicts have a disease, and I must help support and treat them, and pay for the damage they do. Did a giant germ rush out of a dark alley, grab them, and stuff white powder up their noses while they tried to fight it off?

    I’m tired of hearing wealthy athletes, entertainers and politicians of both parties talking about innocent mistakes, stupid mistakes or youthful mistakes, when we all know they think their only mistake was getting caught. I’m tired of people with a sense of entitlement, rich or poor.

    I’m real tired of people who don’t take responsibility for their lives and actions. I’m tired of hearing them blame the government, or discrimination or big-whatever for their problems.

    Yes, I’m damn tired. But I’m also glad to be 70. Because, mostly, I’m not going to have to see the world these people are making. I’m just sorry for my grandchildren..

    Robert A. Hall is a Marine Vietnam veteran who served five terms in the Massachusetts State Senate.

  • Susan

    @Grace

    Whew… lotsa tough love there.

    Today, I got this from my cousin:

    “I’m 70 and I’m Tired”
    By Robert A.. Hall

    I’m 70. Except for having 4 children with only a 6 week maternity period , I’ve worked, hard, since I was 17. Despite some health challenges, I still put in 50-hour weeks, and seldom called in sick in seven or eight years. I made a good salary, but I didn’t inherit my job or my income, and I worked to get where I am. Given the economy, retirement is hard, and I’m tired. Very tired.

    I’m tired of being told that I have to “spread the wealth” to people who don’t have my work ethic. I’m tired of being told the government will take the money I earned, by force if necessary, and give it to people too lazy to earn it.

    I’m tired of being told that Islam is a “Religion of Peace,” when every day I can read dozens of stories of Muslim men killing their sisters, wives and daughters for their family “honor”; of Muslims rioting over some slight offense; of Muslims murdering Christian and Jews because they aren’t “believers”; of Muslims burning schools for girls; of Muslims stoning teenage rape victims to death for “adultery”; of Muslims mutilating the genitals of little girls; all in the name of Allah, because the Qur’an and Shari’a law tells them to.

    I’m tired of being told that out of “tolerance for other cultures” we must let Saudi Arabia use our oil money to fund mosques and mandrassa Islamic schools to preach hate in America and Canada , while no American nor Canadian group nor Australia is allowed to fund a church, synagogue or religious school in Saudi Arabia to teach love and tolerance.

    I’m tired of being told I must lower my living standard to fight global warming, which no one is allowed to debate.

    I’m tired of being told that drug addicts have a disease, and I must help support and treat them, and pay for the damage they do. Did a giant germ rush out of a dark alley, grab them, and stuff white powder up their noses while they tried to fight it off?

    I’m tired of hearing wealthy athletes, entertainers and politicians of both parties talking about innocent mistakes, stupid mistakes or youthful mistakes, when we all know they think their only mistake was getting caught. I’m tired of people with a sense of entitlement, rich or poor.

    I’m real tired of people who don’t take responsibility for their lives and actions. I’m tired of hearing them blame the government, or discrimination or big-whatever for their problems.

    Yes, I’m damn tired. But I’m also glad to be 70. Because, mostly, I’m not going to have to see the world these people are making. I’m just sorry for my grandchildren..

    Robert A. Hall is a Marine Vietnam veteran who served five terms in the Massachusetts State Senate.

  • Jim_777

    Michael B., when I referred to people who can’t care for themselves and those in dire (temporary) circumstances, this doesn’t include children (although I suppose hypothetically it could include orphans with no family relations whatsoever). Children have parents who are supposed to take care of them. This seems obvious, but I guess not. I think the main underlying problem with the state of this nation is that so many able-bodied adults have completely accepted the idea that their hardships entitle them to take property from other adults. The entitlement culture is incredibly corrosive. Case in point, you seem actually offended by the idea that you should be responsible for your own life and choices. Of course, you conveniently choose the top-hated plutocrat as your redistributive victim, but in reality you advocate taking property from your middle-class neighbors. Life is hard sometimes for everyone. That’s why God gave us spouses, families, friends, church families, and so on to help us. Stop trying to cloak your naked envy and greed in high-minded compassion.

  • Jim_777

    Michael B., when I referred to people who can’t care for themselves and those in dire (temporary) circumstances, this doesn’t include children (although I suppose hypothetically it could include orphans with no family relations whatsoever). Children have parents who are supposed to take care of them. This seems obvious, but I guess not. I think the main underlying problem with the state of this nation is that so many able-bodied adults have completely accepted the idea that their hardships entitle them to take property from other adults. The entitlement culture is incredibly corrosive. Case in point, you seem actually offended by the idea that you should be responsible for your own life and choices. Of course, you conveniently choose the top-hated plutocrat as your redistributive victim, but in reality you advocate taking property from your middle-class neighbors. Life is hard sometimes for everyone. That’s why God gave us spouses, families, friends, church families, and so on to help us. Stop trying to cloak your naked envy and greed in high-minded compassion.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: @ 73. The young lady reminds me of Charles Baudelaire’s prose-poem, Let’s Beat Up the Poor! (1869).

    For fifteen days I was confined to my room, and I was surrounded by the sort of books that were fashionable then (this was sixteen or seventeen years ago) – I mean to say those books in which is treated the art of making people happy, wise, and rich in twenty-four hours. I had, then, digested – I should say, swallowed whole – all the lucubrations of all of these entrepreneurs of public happiness, of those who council all of the poor to make themselves slaves, and of those who persuade them they are all unthroned kings. You won’t be surprised to learn that I was in a state of mind close to dizziness or stupefaction.

    It seemed to me only that I felt, confined in the depths of my intellect, the obscure seed of an idea superior to all the old wives’ tales collected in the encyclopedia that I had recently read through. But it was only the idea of an idea, something infinitely vague.

    And I went out with a great thirst. For a passionate taste for bad reading engenders a proportional need for fresh air and refreshments.

    As I was about to enter a cabaret, a beggar held out his cap to me, with one of those unforgettable gazes that would cause thrones to tumble, if spirit could move matter, and if the eye of a hypnotist could make grapes ripen.

    At the same time, I heard a voice whispering in my ear, a voice that I well recognized: it was that of the good Angel, or good Devil, who accompanies me everywhere. Since Socrates had his good Demon, why shouldn’t I have my good Angel, and why shouldn’t I have the honor, like Socrates, of obtaining my own certificate of insanity, signed by the subtle Lelut and the well-advised Baillarge?

    There is a difference between Socrates’ Demon and my own, and that is that Socrates’ only appeared to him to forbid, warn, and prevent, whereas mine deigns to offer council, suggest, and persuade. Poor Socrates only had a prohibitive Demon; mine is a great affirmer, mine is a Demon of action, a Demon of combat.

    Now, his voice whispered this: “He alone is equal to another who proves it, and he alone is worthy of liberty who knows how to conquer it.”

    I immediately leaped upon the beggar. With a single punch I gave him a black eye, which became in a second as big as a ball. I tore one of my nails breaking two of his teeth, and since I didn’t feel strong enough – having been born delicate and being little practiced in boxing – to beat this old man to death quickly, I seized him with one hand by the collar of his jacket and with the other I grabbed his throat, and I began to bang his head against the wall vigorously. I must admit that I had previously inspected the area with a quick glance and that I had verified that i would find myself, in this deserted suburb, out of the reach of any police officer for a fairly long period of time.

    Having then knocked down this weakened sexagenarian with a kick in the back, energetic enough to have broken his shoulder-blades, I seized a big tree limb that was lying on the ground and I beat him with it with the obstinate energy of a cook who wants to tenderize a steak.

    Suddenly – Oh delight of the philosopher who verifies the excellence of this theory! – I saw that ancient carcass turn, stand up with an energy that I would never have expected to find in so singularly broken-down a machine, and, with a look of hatred that seemed to me a good omen, the decrepit ruffian threw himself upon me, blackened both of my eyes, broke four of my teeth, and with the same tree branch beat me to a bloody pulp. Through my energetic medicine, I had returned to him his pride and his life …

    Then I made him numerous signs to let him understand that I considered the discussion ended, and getting up with all of the satisfaction of a Stoic philosopher, I said to him: “Sir, you are my equal! Do me the honor of sharing my purse with me; and remember, if you are really a philanthropist, that you must apply to all of your brothers, when they ask you for alms, the theory that I had the sorrow of testing out on your back.”

    He swore to me that he had understood my theory, and that he would obey my advice.

  • Tom Hering

    Re: @ 73. The young lady reminds me of Charles Baudelaire’s prose-poem, Let’s Beat Up the Poor! (1869).

    For fifteen days I was confined to my room, and I was surrounded by the sort of books that were fashionable then (this was sixteen or seventeen years ago) – I mean to say those books in which is treated the art of making people happy, wise, and rich in twenty-four hours. I had, then, digested – I should say, swallowed whole – all the lucubrations of all of these entrepreneurs of public happiness, of those who council all of the poor to make themselves slaves, and of those who persuade them they are all unthroned kings. You won’t be surprised to learn that I was in a state of mind close to dizziness or stupefaction.

    It seemed to me only that I felt, confined in the depths of my intellect, the obscure seed of an idea superior to all the old wives’ tales collected in the encyclopedia that I had recently read through. But it was only the idea of an idea, something infinitely vague.

    And I went out with a great thirst. For a passionate taste for bad reading engenders a proportional need for fresh air and refreshments.

    As I was about to enter a cabaret, a beggar held out his cap to me, with one of those unforgettable gazes that would cause thrones to tumble, if spirit could move matter, and if the eye of a hypnotist could make grapes ripen.

    At the same time, I heard a voice whispering in my ear, a voice that I well recognized: it was that of the good Angel, or good Devil, who accompanies me everywhere. Since Socrates had his good Demon, why shouldn’t I have my good Angel, and why shouldn’t I have the honor, like Socrates, of obtaining my own certificate of insanity, signed by the subtle Lelut and the well-advised Baillarge?

    There is a difference between Socrates’ Demon and my own, and that is that Socrates’ only appeared to him to forbid, warn, and prevent, whereas mine deigns to offer council, suggest, and persuade. Poor Socrates only had a prohibitive Demon; mine is a great affirmer, mine is a Demon of action, a Demon of combat.

    Now, his voice whispered this: “He alone is equal to another who proves it, and he alone is worthy of liberty who knows how to conquer it.”

    I immediately leaped upon the beggar. With a single punch I gave him a black eye, which became in a second as big as a ball. I tore one of my nails breaking two of his teeth, and since I didn’t feel strong enough – having been born delicate and being little practiced in boxing – to beat this old man to death quickly, I seized him with one hand by the collar of his jacket and with the other I grabbed his throat, and I began to bang his head against the wall vigorously. I must admit that I had previously inspected the area with a quick glance and that I had verified that i would find myself, in this deserted suburb, out of the reach of any police officer for a fairly long period of time.

    Having then knocked down this weakened sexagenarian with a kick in the back, energetic enough to have broken his shoulder-blades, I seized a big tree limb that was lying on the ground and I beat him with it with the obstinate energy of a cook who wants to tenderize a steak.

    Suddenly – Oh delight of the philosopher who verifies the excellence of this theory! – I saw that ancient carcass turn, stand up with an energy that I would never have expected to find in so singularly broken-down a machine, and, with a look of hatred that seemed to me a good omen, the decrepit ruffian threw himself upon me, blackened both of my eyes, broke four of my teeth, and with the same tree branch beat me to a bloody pulp. Through my energetic medicine, I had returned to him his pride and his life …

    Then I made him numerous signs to let him understand that I considered the discussion ended, and getting up with all of the satisfaction of a Stoic philosopher, I said to him: “Sir, you are my equal! Do me the honor of sharing my purse with me; and remember, if you are really a philanthropist, that you must apply to all of your brothers, when they ask you for alms, the theory that I had the sorrow of testing out on your back.”

    He swore to me that he had understood my theory, and that he would obey my advice.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @76

    What is your point?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @76

    What is your point?

  • Grace

    Susan @ 74 “Whew… lotsa tough love there.”

    “Tough love” is needed, as the economy continues to worsen.

  • Grace

    Susan @ 74 “Whew… lotsa tough love there.”

    “Tough love” is needed, as the economy continues to worsen.

  • Michael B.

    @Jim_777@75

    “Children have parents who are supposed to take care of them.”

    I think everyone agree with you, but when the kid’s parents can’t or won’t take care of them, and if nobody else will, should the government just let them go without housing, food, education, or medical care?

    @sg
    ” I am talking about paying the doctor, hospital, etc. They send a bill for the service and I would pay it. If I couldn’t pay it all, I would talk to their offices and work out how much I could pay. Duh. It is just like any other bill. Also, I could sell some stuff to pay the bill.”

    I don’t think you’re quite aware of how high medical bills can run. Again, it is not uncommon for medical expenses to run as high as 6 figures. You can easily look this up. You talk about “selling some stuff”. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you’re not talking about selling stuff on ebay, but rather taking a second mortgage the house and liquidating 401k’s. This might work for some Americans, but they can become destitute. In addition, underwater mortgages and low 401ks can later cause economic problems for far more people than just them.

    Americans shouldn’t have to be plunged into poverty if one of their kids gets sick. We’re one of the richest countries in the world. There’s probably a reason why more developed countries have a government that plays a relatively large role in health care.

  • Michael B.

    @Jim_777@75

    “Children have parents who are supposed to take care of them.”

    I think everyone agree with you, but when the kid’s parents can’t or won’t take care of them, and if nobody else will, should the government just let them go without housing, food, education, or medical care?

    @sg
    ” I am talking about paying the doctor, hospital, etc. They send a bill for the service and I would pay it. If I couldn’t pay it all, I would talk to their offices and work out how much I could pay. Duh. It is just like any other bill. Also, I could sell some stuff to pay the bill.”

    I don’t think you’re quite aware of how high medical bills can run. Again, it is not uncommon for medical expenses to run as high as 6 figures. You can easily look this up. You talk about “selling some stuff”. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you’re not talking about selling stuff on ebay, but rather taking a second mortgage the house and liquidating 401k’s. This might work for some Americans, but they can become destitute. In addition, underwater mortgages and low 401ks can later cause economic problems for far more people than just them.

    Americans shouldn’t have to be plunged into poverty if one of their kids gets sick. We’re one of the richest countries in the world. There’s probably a reason why more developed countries have a government that plays a relatively large role in health care.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Americans shouldn’t have to be plunged into poverty if one of their kids gets sick.”

    Why not?

    Why is their kid’s health less important to them than their possessions?

    I know medical bills can be high. So what? Part of the reason they are so high is that people get treatment and then don’t pay, so they cost shift. Another reason is that people don’t care what the price is because they are not paying for it, their insurance is. And they don’t pay the premiums. Their employer does. This basically proves you can get treatment without paying for it. People have gotten used to getting an incredible service, modern medical treatment, for free. Since it kind of feels like it is free, they expect it for free, but actually it costs a lot. If you are going to have mandates, at least do it in a smart way like Germany does. Employers have to provide insurance to all employees whether full or part time. Of course, Germany does a lot of things the smart way.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Americans shouldn’t have to be plunged into poverty if one of their kids gets sick.”

    Why not?

    Why is their kid’s health less important to them than their possessions?

    I know medical bills can be high. So what? Part of the reason they are so high is that people get treatment and then don’t pay, so they cost shift. Another reason is that people don’t care what the price is because they are not paying for it, their insurance is. And they don’t pay the premiums. Their employer does. This basically proves you can get treatment without paying for it. People have gotten used to getting an incredible service, modern medical treatment, for free. Since it kind of feels like it is free, they expect it for free, but actually it costs a lot. If you are going to have mandates, at least do it in a smart way like Germany does. Employers have to provide insurance to all employees whether full or part time. Of course, Germany does a lot of things the smart way.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Americans shouldn’t have to be plunged into poverty if one of their kids gets sick.”

    Also, what is the point of saving money if when you have a serious problem, you don’t think you should have to use your own money to pay for your own problem? Why do we act like we are 9 years old and mommy and daddy take care of all the essentials and we just buy fun stuff with our money like candy and games? Your money and your assets are there for you to use to pay for your problems. Why should I expect young people with far less money than I have to pay my medical bills so I will still be able to retire and take fancy vacations? Well? That is what the health care act does. It forces people of modest means to buy something they don’t want or need so insurers can make more money and highly compensated people can have lower insurance premiums. I will benefit from this crappy deal. Young people will pay for it.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Americans shouldn’t have to be plunged into poverty if one of their kids gets sick.”

    Also, what is the point of saving money if when you have a serious problem, you don’t think you should have to use your own money to pay for your own problem? Why do we act like we are 9 years old and mommy and daddy take care of all the essentials and we just buy fun stuff with our money like candy and games? Your money and your assets are there for you to use to pay for your problems. Why should I expect young people with far less money than I have to pay my medical bills so I will still be able to retire and take fancy vacations? Well? That is what the health care act does. It forces people of modest means to buy something they don’t want or need so insurers can make more money and highly compensated people can have lower insurance premiums. I will benefit from this crappy deal. Young people will pay for it.

  • Grace

    sg,

    Often times people are very poor, they have little money to buy the bare essentials, meaning food, meager housing, no frills whatsoever. The parents may have illness (it does happen, one parent can have a debilitating illness, that requires costly medication and treatment, such as cancer, diabetes) which means the other parent, if they are together works very hard to keep things going.

    It’s mean spirited, in every sense of the word to begrudge those who are desperately ill and poor any sort of help. More often than not, they don’t own a home any longer, they sold it long ago to pay bills.

    I am in no way, advocating those who can work and help themselves to demand help when they won’t work. But to get up on your make believe high platitudes about what you would do is heartless.

    Having been the daughter of a pastor, I have seen and witnessed desperate situations, where people were hungry, no food in the house, three children, a mother who worked. I baby sat such peoples children after school. They had NOTHING, but a rented small house, with bare shelves in the kitchen, with nothing in them expect a few dishes. I’m glad I saw such things, it gave me the understanding to see how EVEN THOSE WHO WORK, can live beyond, what the average person has witnessed.

    The next time you choose to sit and judge such pitiful situations from your computer, think about it, pray about those who are sick, hungry and have nothing, but work as hard as they can and then listen to someone like you blither about what they don’t know.

    This is what’s happening in Europe:

    Spain Recoils, as Its Hungry Forage Trash Bins for a Next Meal
    The New York Times
    Published: Tuesday, 25 Sep 2012
    By: Suzanne Daley
    The New York Times
    “On a recent evening, a hip-looking young woman was sorting through a stack of crates outside a fruit and vegetable store here in the working-class neighborhood of Vallecas as it shut down for the night.

    At first glance, she looked as if she might be a store employee. But no. The young woman was looking through the day’s trash for her next meal. Already, she had found a dozen aging potatoes she deemed edible and loaded them onto a luggage cart parked nearby.
    “When you don’t have enough money,” she said, declining to give her name, “this is what there is.”

    The woman, 33, said that she had once worked at the post office but that her unemployment benefits had run out and she was living now on 400 euros a month, about $520. She was squatting with some friends in a building that still had water and electricity, while collecting “a little of everything” from the garbage after stores closed and the streets were dark and quiet.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/49162890

    Find something wrong with the article, make up a story about what you’d do ______________. If this should happen to YOU, I hope someone helps you. And YES, it could happen to you or any of us. No one is beyond painful situations. Add illness to the mix, and it becomes a PAINFUL NIGHTMARE.

    Shame on you!

  • Grace

    sg,

    Often times people are very poor, they have little money to buy the bare essentials, meaning food, meager housing, no frills whatsoever. The parents may have illness (it does happen, one parent can have a debilitating illness, that requires costly medication and treatment, such as cancer, diabetes) which means the other parent, if they are together works very hard to keep things going.

    It’s mean spirited, in every sense of the word to begrudge those who are desperately ill and poor any sort of help. More often than not, they don’t own a home any longer, they sold it long ago to pay bills.

    I am in no way, advocating those who can work and help themselves to demand help when they won’t work. But to get up on your make believe high platitudes about what you would do is heartless.

    Having been the daughter of a pastor, I have seen and witnessed desperate situations, where people were hungry, no food in the house, three children, a mother who worked. I baby sat such peoples children after school. They had NOTHING, but a rented small house, with bare shelves in the kitchen, with nothing in them expect a few dishes. I’m glad I saw such things, it gave me the understanding to see how EVEN THOSE WHO WORK, can live beyond, what the average person has witnessed.

    The next time you choose to sit and judge such pitiful situations from your computer, think about it, pray about those who are sick, hungry and have nothing, but work as hard as they can and then listen to someone like you blither about what they don’t know.

    This is what’s happening in Europe:

    Spain Recoils, as Its Hungry Forage Trash Bins for a Next Meal
    The New York Times
    Published: Tuesday, 25 Sep 2012
    By: Suzanne Daley
    The New York Times
    “On a recent evening, a hip-looking young woman was sorting through a stack of crates outside a fruit and vegetable store here in the working-class neighborhood of Vallecas as it shut down for the night.

    At first glance, she looked as if she might be a store employee. But no. The young woman was looking through the day’s trash for her next meal. Already, she had found a dozen aging potatoes she deemed edible and loaded them onto a luggage cart parked nearby.
    “When you don’t have enough money,” she said, declining to give her name, “this is what there is.”

    The woman, 33, said that she had once worked at the post office but that her unemployment benefits had run out and she was living now on 400 euros a month, about $520. She was squatting with some friends in a building that still had water and electricity, while collecting “a little of everything” from the garbage after stores closed and the streets were dark and quiet.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/49162890

    Find something wrong with the article, make up a story about what you’d do ______________. If this should happen to YOU, I hope someone helps you. And YES, it could happen to you or any of us. No one is beyond painful situations. Add illness to the mix, and it becomes a PAINFUL NIGHTMARE.

    Shame on you!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Look, Grace, terrible stuff has always happened. Always. But this living in a state of fear that you might not have insurance is crazy. People now are far healthier and more secure than ever, and yet the carrying on now seems worse than ever. Never in history have people ever expected so much despite already having so much more than ever. Everyone in the U.S. gets immunized, fortified foods, free public education, emergency medical treatment etc, etc. The fear that you might get a bill for a service that saved you from mortality or morbidity, seems so strange. You get a bill for your house, your car, your TV. Why are the people who provide those services so much more deserving of payment than doctors and drug makers? Why do we think we are entitled to make other people provide basic necessities for us?

    And why can’t anyone answer that question?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Look, Grace, terrible stuff has always happened. Always. But this living in a state of fear that you might not have insurance is crazy. People now are far healthier and more secure than ever, and yet the carrying on now seems worse than ever. Never in history have people ever expected so much despite already having so much more than ever. Everyone in the U.S. gets immunized, fortified foods, free public education, emergency medical treatment etc, etc. The fear that you might get a bill for a service that saved you from mortality or morbidity, seems so strange. You get a bill for your house, your car, your TV. Why are the people who provide those services so much more deserving of payment than doctors and drug makers? Why do we think we are entitled to make other people provide basic necessities for us?

    And why can’t anyone answer that question?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Shame on you!”

    For what? Stating the obvious? Or is it my fault that people in Spain lose their jobs?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Shame on you!”

    For what? Stating the obvious? Or is it my fault that people in Spain lose their jobs?

  • Grace

    sg, “And why can’t anyone answer that question?”

    They have, the problem you have is: You won’t listen. Not everyone is able bodied, healthy for any number of reasons. I’m not talking about those who could work, but those who cannot, OR if they do, are unable to afford medication, or any sort of health care.

    1. They don’t have a house to sell, it was sold long ago, or lost to forclosure.
    2. They are sick, with children to support.
    3. No family to pitch in and help with childcare, food or housing.

    You’re living in a world that has a cocky answer for everyone else who is suffering. There is no Samaritans heart in your world, because you believe that no one can become so poor, so helpless.

    I’m grateful for all we have, but it could be gone in a flash, in ways I could never imagine. It could happen to you as well.

  • Grace

    sg, “And why can’t anyone answer that question?”

    They have, the problem you have is: You won’t listen. Not everyone is able bodied, healthy for any number of reasons. I’m not talking about those who could work, but those who cannot, OR if they do, are unable to afford medication, or any sort of health care.

    1. They don’t have a house to sell, it was sold long ago, or lost to forclosure.
    2. They are sick, with children to support.
    3. No family to pitch in and help with childcare, food or housing.

    You’re living in a world that has a cocky answer for everyone else who is suffering. There is no Samaritans heart in your world, because you believe that no one can become so poor, so helpless.

    I’m grateful for all we have, but it could be gone in a flash, in ways I could never imagine. It could happen to you as well.

  • Grace

    sg,

    There is no point in trying to reason with you. You live in a SMALL WORLD. There is the real world, and then there is your make-believe world, in which everyone has a bank account, savings, home, etc.

    I am not advocating welfare, FAR FROM IT, but I’m not suggesting that we ignore and punish, those who are sick, hungry and in pain.

  • Grace

    sg,

    There is no point in trying to reason with you. You live in a SMALL WORLD. There is the real world, and then there is your make-believe world, in which everyone has a bank account, savings, home, etc.

    I am not advocating welfare, FAR FROM IT, but I’m not suggesting that we ignore and punish, those who are sick, hungry and in pain.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m grateful for all we have, but it could be gone in a flash, in ways I could never imagine. It could happen to you as well.”

    Um, could happen? How about will happen? We are all going to lose it all.

    Anyway, how is sending someone a bill after they receive services the same as ignoring and punishing?

    Step one: They get the services they need.

    Step two: They get a bill for the services.

    Step three: They pay as much as they can.

    Step four: They can’t pay the whole bill and go bankrupt which protects some of their assets.

    Now, where in there is the part where they are ignored and punished?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “I’m grateful for all we have, but it could be gone in a flash, in ways I could never imagine. It could happen to you as well.”

    Um, could happen? How about will happen? We are all going to lose it all.

    Anyway, how is sending someone a bill after they receive services the same as ignoring and punishing?

    Step one: They get the services they need.

    Step two: They get a bill for the services.

    Step three: They pay as much as they can.

    Step four: They can’t pay the whole bill and go bankrupt which protects some of their assets.

    Now, where in there is the part where they are ignored and punished?

  • Grace

    sg

    “Step one: They get the services they need.”

    “Step two: They get a bill for the services.

    One: is good
    Two: They have the bill

    “Step three: They pay as much as they can.

    Step four: They can’t pay the whole bill and go bankrupt which protects some of their assets.”

    Three and four: they have no money to pay, they can barely eat, and keep a roof over their head. They most likely have already gone “bankrupt” they have no “assets” to keep or give away – that’s the part you’re unable to understand.

    “Now, where in there is the part where they are ignored and punished?”

    They don’t have anything to take, they are poor, and often sick. They are “ignored” and ridiculed by people just like yourself, who believe they have an answer for those who are too sick, to hungry to help themselves. These are the people sg, who need help, they are the ones who have nothing.

    You ASSUME that those who live in real poverty have something to take, something to go bankrupt over. That’s where you’re stumbling, and cannot see how pitiful some lives are.

  • Grace

    sg

    “Step one: They get the services they need.”

    “Step two: They get a bill for the services.

    One: is good
    Two: They have the bill

    “Step three: They pay as much as they can.

    Step four: They can’t pay the whole bill and go bankrupt which protects some of their assets.”

    Three and four: they have no money to pay, they can barely eat, and keep a roof over their head. They most likely have already gone “bankrupt” they have no “assets” to keep or give away – that’s the part you’re unable to understand.

    “Now, where in there is the part where they are ignored and punished?”

    They don’t have anything to take, they are poor, and often sick. They are “ignored” and ridiculed by people just like yourself, who believe they have an answer for those who are too sick, to hungry to help themselves. These are the people sg, who need help, they are the ones who have nothing.

    You ASSUME that those who live in real poverty have something to take, something to go bankrupt over. That’s where you’re stumbling, and cannot see how pitiful some lives are.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oh, good grief.

    Did you read what Michael B. wrote? That is what I responded to.
    Anyway, the poor get Medicaid. They are not just uninsured with modest to average means. Two different groups. You are talking about the poor. I am talking about people with some means.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oh, good grief.

    Did you read what Michael B. wrote? That is what I responded to.
    Anyway, the poor get Medicaid. They are not just uninsured with modest to average means. Two different groups. You are talking about the poor. I am talking about people with some means.

  • Grace

    sg @ 89

    “Some means”

    “Some means” – - When a medical disaster hits, when disease, surgeries, endless hospital stays, and treatment are desperately needed to save life, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, almost no one can afford such care ‘out of pocket. Often times a wife has to care for her husband, or a child after such an illness, which means they are forced to leave their job. Doing so means there will not be funds to pay for rent, food, etc.

    You’re twisting the subject. You have no idea how many people are desperately poor, or who cannot afford housing, never mind medical care, not because they are lazy, but because ‘hard times have visited their lives. Their lives were not always in such a financial mess.

    You have some magical idea that all these people that get medical care under a medicaid, could sell their 401k’s their home, etc., it doesn’t work that way. Now you want to twist it around.

    As I see it, you love to argue, when it’s obvious you have little to no mercy for those who are destitute – - then you try another approach.

    “Oh, good grief. “ – - Illness does bring grief – not the kind you so smugly display in your post above.

  • Grace

    sg @ 89

    “Some means”

    “Some means” – - When a medical disaster hits, when disease, surgeries, endless hospital stays, and treatment are desperately needed to save life, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, almost no one can afford such care ‘out of pocket. Often times a wife has to care for her husband, or a child after such an illness, which means they are forced to leave their job. Doing so means there will not be funds to pay for rent, food, etc.

    You’re twisting the subject. You have no idea how many people are desperately poor, or who cannot afford housing, never mind medical care, not because they are lazy, but because ‘hard times have visited their lives. Their lives were not always in such a financial mess.

    You have some magical idea that all these people that get medical care under a medicaid, could sell their 401k’s their home, etc., it doesn’t work that way. Now you want to twist it around.

    As I see it, you love to argue, when it’s obvious you have little to no mercy for those who are destitute – - then you try another approach.

    “Oh, good grief. “ – - Illness does bring grief – not the kind you so smugly display in your post above.

  • Michael B.

    @Grace

    “You have some magical idea that all these people that get medical care under a medicaid, could sell their 401k’s their home, etc., it doesn’t work that way….it’s obvious you have little to no mercy for those who are destitute ”

    There is some evidence that certain types of brain damage can limit empathy. The research is fascinating and may have implications in criminal cases in the future. Interesting read if you have the time. However, I wonder if this is the case though as much as a lack of knowledge. Consider how you may have thought about health care when you were in early teens. For me, my dad had a great job and I just took it for granted me and my family would have always great health care. I never gave it a second thought. I had little idea where health care came from or how much it cost. If people complained about bad health care, there must be something wrong with them. In any event, it may be a result of a very small worldview rather than a lack of empathy. If you have any experience teaching high school or junior high school current events, you see this behavior a lot.

  • Michael B.

    @Grace

    “You have some magical idea that all these people that get medical care under a medicaid, could sell their 401k’s their home, etc., it doesn’t work that way….it’s obvious you have little to no mercy for those who are destitute ”

    There is some evidence that certain types of brain damage can limit empathy. The research is fascinating and may have implications in criminal cases in the future. Interesting read if you have the time. However, I wonder if this is the case though as much as a lack of knowledge. Consider how you may have thought about health care when you were in early teens. For me, my dad had a great job and I just took it for granted me and my family would have always great health care. I never gave it a second thought. I had little idea where health care came from or how much it cost. If people complained about bad health care, there must be something wrong with them. In any event, it may be a result of a very small worldview rather than a lack of empathy. If you have any experience teaching high school or junior high school current events, you see this behavior a lot.

  • Grace

    Michael,

    I’ve known people who have little to no empathy for others. They could walk right by a woman with a child in her arms, very poor, sitting on the sidewalk, and not flinch. It’s a lack of concern and love for others.

    I had the privilege of starting an organization that would give food, refer the needy to physicians for free care (they were doctors who were part of the churches in the area) there were resources that offered housing (some were for men only, living in a private home 2 to a bedroom, with meals) they were required to help with meals, and chores. We gave a variety of help, and resources to anyone who called. I had a hot-line 24 hours/7 days a week. I have witnessed first hand the poor, those who are very hungry, perhaps with an apartment, but no food to feed themselves and their children – no way to receive medical care. I had a volunteer group of about 11 women who took calls, and arranged help.

    Observing those who care for the sick in hospitals is no different. Some doctors, nurses, aids and specialists are born ‘care givers – the others? – it’s just a job, they aren’t really tuned into the patient or their needs. I’ve seen physicians who really care for those in pain who suffer, and their families – I’ve seen some who were only interested in themselves, IT SHOWED!

  • Grace

    Michael,

    I’ve known people who have little to no empathy for others. They could walk right by a woman with a child in her arms, very poor, sitting on the sidewalk, and not flinch. It’s a lack of concern and love for others.

    I had the privilege of starting an organization that would give food, refer the needy to physicians for free care (they were doctors who were part of the churches in the area) there were resources that offered housing (some were for men only, living in a private home 2 to a bedroom, with meals) they were required to help with meals, and chores. We gave a variety of help, and resources to anyone who called. I had a hot-line 24 hours/7 days a week. I have witnessed first hand the poor, those who are very hungry, perhaps with an apartment, but no food to feed themselves and their children – no way to receive medical care. I had a volunteer group of about 11 women who took calls, and arranged help.

    Observing those who care for the sick in hospitals is no different. Some doctors, nurses, aids and specialists are born ‘care givers – the others? – it’s just a job, they aren’t really tuned into the patient or their needs. I’ve seen physicians who really care for those in pain who suffer, and their families – I’ve seen some who were only interested in themselves, IT SHOWED!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Bottom line.

    There is nothing wrong with expecting people to pay for services they need.

    Neither of you managed to take a breath from your righteous indignation long enough to answer why it is so desperately important for insurers to get paid while it obviously is the end of the world for someone to use all of their assets to pay for treatment to save their own lives.

    Any comment on the president of United healthcare getting $1.4 billion in compensation? How is that efficient and compassionate for the families of the sick? Well?

    Just a reminder, insurance ≠ health care service.

    Plenty of people with no money and no insurance are served by health care providers.

    Plenty of people with insurance are denied services. Of course they are free to use their own resources.

    It appears that providers are wising up and getting in on the insurance angle with concierge fees. Rather than having up front costs go to someone who may not pay when the time comes, the doctor collects his fees up front in case you may need them later. Wise move.

    As for your pathetic and goofy attempts at ad hominem with the “empathy” discussion, it is just irrelevant. All the empathy in the world doesn’t pay the bills. Providers have to make a living and insurers and hospitals are making significant profits in this environment. Now, much of that is funneled to executives in the form of salaries, benefits and stock options rather than being reported and taxed as profits. Still, plenty of people are cashing in thanks to empathy pimps who make about the same arguments that you do.

    A personal anecdote. I picked those empathetic nice docs when I was pregnant and two times Mr. nice guy did not show up for the delivery that my insurance paid him for. Ms. Efficient just doing her job did all of the work. Sometimes what you really need is not someone’s feelings, but their actions. Actions speak louder than words and feelings.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Bottom line.

    There is nothing wrong with expecting people to pay for services they need.

    Neither of you managed to take a breath from your righteous indignation long enough to answer why it is so desperately important for insurers to get paid while it obviously is the end of the world for someone to use all of their assets to pay for treatment to save their own lives.

    Any comment on the president of United healthcare getting $1.4 billion in compensation? How is that efficient and compassionate for the families of the sick? Well?

    Just a reminder, insurance ≠ health care service.

    Plenty of people with no money and no insurance are served by health care providers.

    Plenty of people with insurance are denied services. Of course they are free to use their own resources.

    It appears that providers are wising up and getting in on the insurance angle with concierge fees. Rather than having up front costs go to someone who may not pay when the time comes, the doctor collects his fees up front in case you may need them later. Wise move.

    As for your pathetic and goofy attempts at ad hominem with the “empathy” discussion, it is just irrelevant. All the empathy in the world doesn’t pay the bills. Providers have to make a living and insurers and hospitals are making significant profits in this environment. Now, much of that is funneled to executives in the form of salaries, benefits and stock options rather than being reported and taxed as profits. Still, plenty of people are cashing in thanks to empathy pimps who make about the same arguments that you do.

    A personal anecdote. I picked those empathetic nice docs when I was pregnant and two times Mr. nice guy did not show up for the delivery that my insurance paid him for. Ms. Efficient just doing her job did all of the work. Sometimes what you really need is not someone’s feelings, but their actions. Actions speak louder than words and feelings.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @92

    Very nice story.

    Waiting to hear what Michael B. has done for the poor and sick.

    I know some docs who will not take Medicare but do give free service. It literally costs them more to file for Medicare payments than they get in payments. So, they just treat the poor for free.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @92

    Very nice story.

    Waiting to hear what Michael B. has done for the poor and sick.

    I know some docs who will not take Medicare but do give free service. It literally costs them more to file for Medicare payments than they get in payments. So, they just treat the poor for free.

  • Grace

    sg @93

    “A personal anecdote. I picked those empathetic nice docs when I was pregnant and two times Mr. nice guy did not show up for the delivery that my insurance paid him for. Ms. Efficient just doing her job did all of the work. Sometimes what you really need is not someone’s feelings, but their actions. Actions speak louder than words and feelings.”

    sg, it appears you don’t know much about who you choose for a doctor, if it all turned out as you say. Referring to doctors as “docs” is not respectful, it’s a relection on you. Perhaps it’s just where you are, or how you view their position, or you know next to nothing about medicine.

    The rest of your post is nonsense. You make it up as you go, and it shows!

  • Grace

    sg @93

    “A personal anecdote. I picked those empathetic nice docs when I was pregnant and two times Mr. nice guy did not show up for the delivery that my insurance paid him for. Ms. Efficient just doing her job did all of the work. Sometimes what you really need is not someone’s feelings, but their actions. Actions speak louder than words and feelings.”

    sg, it appears you don’t know much about who you choose for a doctor, if it all turned out as you say. Referring to doctors as “docs” is not respectful, it’s a relection on you. Perhaps it’s just where you are, or how you view their position, or you know next to nothing about medicine.

    The rest of your post is nonsense. You make it up as you go, and it shows!

  • Grace

    st @94

    “Waiting to hear what Michael B. has done for the poor and sick.”

    Maybe you should tell us how you have volunteered, or worked in a medical career, OR what career you ever had?

    “I know some docs who will not take Medicare but do give free service. It literally costs them more to file for Medicare payments than they get in payments. So, they just treat the poor for free.

    Filing claims for “medicare” is no different than for any other insurance. Medicare is used by anyone who is over the age of 62, doctors DO FILE. You aren’t making any sense. LOL

  • Grace

    st @94

    “Waiting to hear what Michael B. has done for the poor and sick.”

    Maybe you should tell us how you have volunteered, or worked in a medical career, OR what career you ever had?

    “I know some docs who will not take Medicare but do give free service. It literally costs them more to file for Medicare payments than they get in payments. So, they just treat the poor for free.

    Filing claims for “medicare” is no different than for any other insurance. Medicare is used by anyone who is over the age of 62, doctors DO FILE. You aren’t making any sense. LOL

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oops, should have been medicaid.

    And it is different because the government programs pay less than regular insurers.


    sg, it appears you don’t know much about who you choose for a doctor,

    Okay, but let’s assume, there are others who are just as stupid as I am. What advice would you give us stupid folks for choosing good docs. Remember, I am simple, so keep it simple for my simple mind.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Oops, should have been medicaid.

    And it is different because the government programs pay less than regular insurers.


    sg, it appears you don’t know much about who you choose for a doctor,

    Okay, but let’s assume, there are others who are just as stupid as I am. What advice would you give us stupid folks for choosing good docs. Remember, I am simple, so keep it simple for my simple mind.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Maybe you should tell us how you have volunteered, or worked in a medical career, OR what career you ever had?”

    LOL,

    cuz stay home moms are losers!!

    No, I am not going to tell you because it is irrelevant, as are all appeals to authority. Positions have to be based on facts not authority.

    Any opinion on insurance companies?

    All we have to do is buy insurance and everything will be hunky dory, is that it?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Maybe you should tell us how you have volunteered, or worked in a medical career, OR what career you ever had?”

    LOL,

    cuz stay home moms are losers!!

    No, I am not going to tell you because it is irrelevant, as are all appeals to authority. Positions have to be based on facts not authority.

    Any opinion on insurance companies?

    All we have to do is buy insurance and everything will be hunky dory, is that it?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace,

    When people like me donated to your organization did you tell them how they weren’t doing enough for the poor and didn’t care about them etc? I ask this because I give to organizations of that sort that provide those kinds of services. So, those who gave money, but think people should pay for services if they can, did you tell them that they didn’t have empathy? Well?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace,

    When people like me donated to your organization did you tell them how they weren’t doing enough for the poor and didn’t care about them etc? I ask this because I give to organizations of that sort that provide those kinds of services. So, those who gave money, but think people should pay for services if they can, did you tell them that they didn’t have empathy? Well?

  • Grace

    sg

    YOU WROTE: “I know some docs who will not take Medicare but do give free service. It literally costs them more to file for Medicare payments than they get in payments. So, they just treat the poor for free.”

    Medicare is for those over 65, it’s not the same as Medicaid. You obviously are CONFUSED again as to the difference.

    Who is Eligible for Medicare?
    “Generally, you are eligible for Medicare if you or your spouse worked for at least 10 years in Medicare-covered employment and you are 65 years or older and a citizen or permanent resident of the United States. If you aren’t yet 65, you might also qualify for coverage if you have a disability or with End-Stage Renal disease (permanent kidney failure requiring dialysis or transplant).”
    http://www.medicare.gov/MedicareEligibility/home.asp?dest=NAV%7CHome%7CGeneralEnrollment&version=default&browser=IE%7C7%7CWindows+7&language=English

    MEDICAID
    “Medicaid and CHIP provide health coverage to nearly 60 million Americans, including children, pregnant women, parents, seniors and individuals with disabilities. In order to participate in Medicaid, federal law requires states to cover certain population groups (mandatory eligibility groups) and gives them the flexibility to cover other population groups (optional eligibility groups). States set individual eligibility criteria within federal minimum standards. States can apply to CMS for a waiver of federal law to expand health coverage beyond these groups.
    http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Eligibility/Eligibility.html

  • Grace

    sg

    YOU WROTE: “I know some docs who will not take Medicare but do give free service. It literally costs them more to file for Medicare payments than they get in payments. So, they just treat the poor for free.”

    Medicare is for those over 65, it’s not the same as Medicaid. You obviously are CONFUSED again as to the difference.

    Who is Eligible for Medicare?
    “Generally, you are eligible for Medicare if you or your spouse worked for at least 10 years in Medicare-covered employment and you are 65 years or older and a citizen or permanent resident of the United States. If you aren’t yet 65, you might also qualify for coverage if you have a disability or with End-Stage Renal disease (permanent kidney failure requiring dialysis or transplant).”
    http://www.medicare.gov/MedicareEligibility/home.asp?dest=NAV%7CHome%7CGeneralEnrollment&version=default&browser=IE%7C7%7CWindows+7&language=English

    MEDICAID
    “Medicaid and CHIP provide health coverage to nearly 60 million Americans, including children, pregnant women, parents, seniors and individuals with disabilities. In order to participate in Medicaid, federal law requires states to cover certain population groups (mandatory eligibility groups) and gives them the flexibility to cover other population groups (optional eligibility groups). States set individual eligibility criteria within federal minimum standards. States can apply to CMS for a waiver of federal law to expand health coverage beyond these groups.
    http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program-Information/By-Topics/Eligibility/Eligibility.html

  • Grace

    sg @ 99

    “When people like me donated to your organization did you tell them how they weren’t doing enough for the poor and didn’t care about them etc? I ask this because I give to organizations of that sort that provide those kinds of services. So, those who gave money, but think people should pay for services if they can, did you tell them that they didn’t have empathy? Well?”

    Only one person ever contributed, and that was in memory of my beloved father who went home to be with the LORD.

    My husband and I paid for all the answering services, I did all the leg work, and organized the entire operation myself. I worked at least 45 plus hours a week. People offered to help those who needed it. Many of the women in my organization PAID for the food they delivered.

  • Grace

    sg @ 99

    “When people like me donated to your organization did you tell them how they weren’t doing enough for the poor and didn’t care about them etc? I ask this because I give to organizations of that sort that provide those kinds of services. So, those who gave money, but think people should pay for services if they can, did you tell them that they didn’t have empathy? Well?”

    Only one person ever contributed, and that was in memory of my beloved father who went home to be with the LORD.

    My husband and I paid for all the answering services, I did all the leg work, and organized the entire operation myself. I worked at least 45 plus hours a week. People offered to help those who needed it. Many of the women in my organization PAID for the food they delivered.

  • Grace

    sg @98

    “LOL,
    cuz stay home moms are losers!!

    It doesn’t matter whether you’re a “stay at home mom” or not, you still have time to volunteer. Unless you’re tied to your computer, giving out advice, pretending you understand medicine, and all sorts of issues you’ve never dealt with.

    No, I am not going to tell you because it is irrelevant, as are all appeals to authority. Positions have to be based on facts not authority.

    You aren’t going to tell? Your answer “TELLS” the story!

  • Grace

    sg @98

    “LOL,
    cuz stay home moms are losers!!

    It doesn’t matter whether you’re a “stay at home mom” or not, you still have time to volunteer. Unless you’re tied to your computer, giving out advice, pretending you understand medicine, and all sorts of issues you’ve never dealt with.

    No, I am not going to tell you because it is irrelevant, as are all appeals to authority. Positions have to be based on facts not authority.

    You aren’t going to tell? Your answer “TELLS” the story!

  • Grace

    RE: Post 102

    That which is in BOLD, is a remark sg made @98

  • Grace

    RE: Post 102

    That which is in BOLD, is a remark sg made @98

  • Grace

    NavyChaps @71

    Using two situations both from the Old Testament, ie: Esther and King David as examples, has nothing to do with the present situation, which is two men, both with reasons mentioned beforehand to be president of this country.

    God ALMIGHTY will direct the outcome of this country, HE allowed this country to come this far, HE has a plan. My conscience will not allow me to choose one evil over another.

    The Mormon issue is too big, and most of all contrary to God to even consider. Obama is not an option, his views on abortion, taxes, health bill are a disaster. One is left with no one to vote for.

    YOU WROTE: → “Are Christians thus forbidden to work with and/or support non-Chrisitians as they fulfill their vocations in the world (since God is also working through them). What about the work of various organizations or corporations — does that requirement prevent any association with them as well?”

    Anyone can decide who they will or will not work for. There are many corporations and businesses I would decline for employment.

  • Grace

    NavyChaps @71

    Using two situations both from the Old Testament, ie: Esther and King David as examples, has nothing to do with the present situation, which is two men, both with reasons mentioned beforehand to be president of this country.

    God ALMIGHTY will direct the outcome of this country, HE allowed this country to come this far, HE has a plan. My conscience will not allow me to choose one evil over another.

    The Mormon issue is too big, and most of all contrary to God to even consider. Obama is not an option, his views on abortion, taxes, health bill are a disaster. One is left with no one to vote for.

    YOU WROTE: → “Are Christians thus forbidden to work with and/or support non-Chrisitians as they fulfill their vocations in the world (since God is also working through them). What about the work of various organizations or corporations — does that requirement prevent any association with them as well?”

    Anyone can decide who they will or will not work for. There are many corporations and businesses I would decline for employment.

  • Grace

    Sorry, the above post was meant for another thread.

  • Grace

    Sorry, the above post was meant for another thread.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace,

    Medical insurance is not medicine. Knowing about medical insurance is not the same as knowing about medicine. Anyway, is there some point you are trying to make here other than to tell me I am a bad person?

    To clarify, my point is that people should pay for their own stuff if they can. There is nothing wrong with selling all your assets to pay your own bills.

    Anyway, you never addressed any of the points I made.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Grace,

    Medical insurance is not medicine. Knowing about medical insurance is not the same as knowing about medicine. Anyway, is there some point you are trying to make here other than to tell me I am a bad person?

    To clarify, my point is that people should pay for their own stuff if they can. There is nothing wrong with selling all your assets to pay your own bills.

    Anyway, you never addressed any of the points I made.

  • Michael B.

    @sg@94

    “Waiting to hear what Michael B. has done for the poor and sick. ”

    Let us suppose I said this: Next to nothing. In fact, I have quite a bit of contempt for the poor and sick. Last Thursday I was in a poorer section of Washington DC, and I saw this woman struggle off a bus with crutches, and enter a physician building. Seeing that she was disabled and was in a lot of pain as she moved around, I found it difficult to imagine that she had a job. I asked her if the care was government funded, and she said yes. I spit on her and told her to get a job and get off welfare. It’s true that I’m vile, and humanity should be ashamed to claim me as a member. As bad as I am though, at least I didn’t actually do anything to take her health care away. I just merely insulted and humiliated her. With me, she’d still end up at least getting medical treatment, albeit with a lot of humiliation. Do you suppose this woman would prefer a person like me, who merely would insult her to her face, or you, who would smile and would never insult her, but take away her health care and allow her to be in misery?

  • Michael B.

    @sg@94

    “Waiting to hear what Michael B. has done for the poor and sick. ”

    Let us suppose I said this: Next to nothing. In fact, I have quite a bit of contempt for the poor and sick. Last Thursday I was in a poorer section of Washington DC, and I saw this woman struggle off a bus with crutches, and enter a physician building. Seeing that she was disabled and was in a lot of pain as she moved around, I found it difficult to imagine that she had a job. I asked her if the care was government funded, and she said yes. I spit on her and told her to get a job and get off welfare. It’s true that I’m vile, and humanity should be ashamed to claim me as a member. As bad as I am though, at least I didn’t actually do anything to take her health care away. I just merely insulted and humiliated her. With me, she’d still end up at least getting medical treatment, albeit with a lot of humiliation. Do you suppose this woman would prefer a person like me, who merely would insult her to her face, or you, who would smile and would never insult her, but take away her health care and allow her to be in misery?

  • Grace

    sg @ 106

    YOU WROTE: → “Medical insurance is not medicine. Knowing about medical insurance is not the same as knowing about medicine. Anyway, is there some point you are trying to make here other than to tell me I am a bad person?

    Every single physician I know (and that is a lot of doctors) and medical personnel, all know a great deal about “medical insurance” it is discussed all the time, at length. But you would know that, as your comment suggests.

    Are you a “bad person” ? – LOL Stop with the ‘story starters’ juvenile!

    YOU WROTE: → “To clarify, my point is that people should pay for their own stuff if they can. There is nothing wrong with selling all your assets to pay your own bills.

    People who are on Medicaid most always have no “assets” or “stuff” to sell. That’s another point you’re having trouble with.

    YOU WROTE: → Anyway, you never addressed any of the points I made.”

    sg, you ask the same, as you like to call it “stuff” all the time, and I answer. You don’t like the answers, so you circle around for another try. :razz:

  • Grace

    sg @ 106

    YOU WROTE: → “Medical insurance is not medicine. Knowing about medical insurance is not the same as knowing about medicine. Anyway, is there some point you are trying to make here other than to tell me I am a bad person?

    Every single physician I know (and that is a lot of doctors) and medical personnel, all know a great deal about “medical insurance” it is discussed all the time, at length. But you would know that, as your comment suggests.

    Are you a “bad person” ? – LOL Stop with the ‘story starters’ juvenile!

    YOU WROTE: → “To clarify, my point is that people should pay for their own stuff if they can. There is nothing wrong with selling all your assets to pay your own bills.

    People who are on Medicaid most always have no “assets” or “stuff” to sell. That’s another point you’re having trouble with.

    YOU WROTE: → Anyway, you never addressed any of the points I made.”

    sg, you ask the same, as you like to call it “stuff” all the time, and I answer. You don’t like the answers, so you circle around for another try. :razz:

  • Grace

    @107

    I bit of satire there Michael? LOL

  • Grace

    @107

    I bit of satire there Michael? LOL

  • Julian

    Here’s a simple answer to sg’s question as to why we should expect others (namely the government) to pay for our healthcare in part or in whole:

    The government has a stake in our increased life expectancy. It makes us look good and strong, and helps us elect 60-80 year old men into public office when they would have been long gone 500 years ago.. It’s the government’s prerogative for us to live so long, so it should pay for the exorbitant cost of propping up our mortal bodies longer than expected.

  • Julian

    Here’s a simple answer to sg’s question as to why we should expect others (namely the government) to pay for our healthcare in part or in whole:

    The government has a stake in our increased life expectancy. It makes us look good and strong, and helps us elect 60-80 year old men into public office when they would have been long gone 500 years ago.. It’s the government’s prerogative for us to live so long, so it should pay for the exorbitant cost of propping up our mortal bodies longer than expected.


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