In which we live blog the debate

Greetings, all of you Cranachers of every political persuasion.  In this experiment in real-time online interaction and discussion, I will post comments on the first presidential candidate debate as it unfolds and invite you to do the same.  Or you can just read what we are all saying.

To follow the discussion you’ll need to hit “refresh” frequently so as to see the latest comments.

What will happen if we have several hundred people trying to comment at once?  I have no idea.  That’s why we call it an experiment.  I doubt that we’ll crash the whole internet, so don’t worry about it.

It’s fine to interact with other people’s comments, but do that briefly and not as long arguments or digressions.  Try to keep the thread in synch with what is happening on television.

If this works, we might try other real-time Cranach get-togethers.

(After the debate, sleep on it, and we’ll discuss our overall impressions–including our views of “who won”–tomorrow.)

In the meantime, as the candidates take their places, let’s begin. . . .

 

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I heard Romney’s handlers have provided him with a bunch of “zingers” that he has memorized and has been practicing. That does not bode well. Whenever Romney does something against his nature, the results are disastrous, and Romney is no comedian. “Zingers” are also a rather debased kind of political discourse. But maybe they will be really, really funny.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I heard Romney’s handlers have provided him with a bunch of “zingers” that he has memorized and has been practicing. That does not bode well. Whenever Romney does something against his nature, the results are disastrous, and Romney is no comedian. “Zingers” are also a rather debased kind of political discourse. But maybe they will be really, really funny.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    They appear together at long last. They seem to be the same height, so they are tied so far.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    They appear together at long last. They seem to be the same height, so they are tied so far.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama begins with a touching reference to this being his anniversary, which is nice and humanizing and likeable.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama begins with a touching reference to this being his anniversary, which is nice and humanizing and likeable.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “The new economic patriotism”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “The new economic patriotism”

  • Kimberly

    Why the dichotomy between cutting taxes and education, Mr. Pres? Can’t you do both at the same time?

  • Kimberly

    Why the dichotomy between cutting taxes and education, Mr. Pres? Can’t you do both at the same time?

  • Charles

    Romney answered the question specifically; Obama did not.

  • Charles

    Romney answered the question specifically; Obama did not.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Mr. President, you’d better not campaign on education, which is not your party’s strongest suit.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Mr. President, you’d better not campaign on education, which is not your party’s strongest suit.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Or on investment in alternative energy, something that didn’t work out so well during your bailout.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Or on investment in alternative energy, something that didn’t work out so well during your bailout.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I appreciate the chance for candidates to answer the charges made against them.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I appreciate the chance for candidates to answer the charges made against them.

  • Kimberly

    He says that Romney wants to spend lots of money, but he asked for 700 trillion…pot calling the kettle black much? I know my grasp of economics is limited but I do understand that they both want to spend more than we’ve got!

  • Kimberly

    He says that Romney wants to spend lots of money, but he asked for 700 trillion…pot calling the kettle black much? I know my grasp of economics is limited but I do understand that they both want to spend more than we’ve got!

  • Charles

    The $4300 median income number includes Obama’s 1st term of Bush’s last year.

  • Charles

    The $4300 median income number includes Obama’s 1st term of Bush’s last year.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney is presenting himself well so far.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney is presenting himself well so far.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    No, Mr. President, you’d better not talk about taxes!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    No, Mr. President, you’d better not talk about taxes!

  • Charles

    Obama talking about taxes? Am I watching a SNL skit?

  • Charles

    Obama talking about taxes? Am I watching a SNL skit?

  • Charles

    It’s interesting that when Obama talks – Romney spends half his time looking at Obama and the other half writing things down. Obama smirks and looks down at his paper & pen most of the time.

  • Charles

    It’s interesting that when Obama talks – Romney spends half his time looking at Obama and the other half writing things down. Obama smirks and looks down at his paper & pen most of the time.

  • Kimberly

    He wants Romney to detail every tax loophole he’ll close now? Talk about needing time to read through it!

  • Kimberly

    He wants Romney to detail every tax loophole he’ll close now? Talk about needing time to read through it!

  • Pete

    The “I’ve got five boys” thing was good.

  • Pete

    The “I’ve got five boys” thing was good.

  • Cincinnatus

    Obama should move on to another talking point. If Romney says that his plan doesn’t raise taxes, you can’t insist that it will anyway. Even if it will. It’s just a dumb strategy.

  • Cincinnatus

    Obama should move on to another talking point. If Romney says that his plan doesn’t raise taxes, you can’t insist that it will anyway. Even if it will. It’s just a dumb strategy.

  • Charles

    Agree with Pete. He has already made several references to real people outside of this debate hall. A Clinton-esque technique.

  • Charles

    Agree with Pete. He has already made several references to real people outside of this debate hall. A Clinton-esque technique.

  • Kimberly

    Wasn’t the economic situation completely different going into Clinton’s tenure? (Too young to remember.) That’s comparing apples and oranges, right?

  • Kimberly

    Wasn’t the economic situation completely different going into Clinton’s tenure? (Too young to remember.) That’s comparing apples and oranges, right?

  • The Jones

    I think Mitt has already thrown the president off his game with the whole “I won’t lower rates on high-income Americans” thing.

  • The Jones

    I think Mitt has already thrown the president off his game with the whole “I won’t lower rates on high-income Americans” thing.

  • Cincinnatus

    The Jones@21: Exactly what I was saying. It just makes him look silly because he’s initiating a “he said/she said” situation.

  • Cincinnatus

    The Jones@21: Exactly what I was saying. It just makes him look silly because he’s initiating a “he said/she said” situation.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama is rambling and his demeanor is very irked. Romney seems much more forceful and lucid.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama is rambling and his demeanor is very irked. Romney seems much more forceful and lucid.

  • Med Student

    And the president just doubled down on 5 trillion in tax cuts/2 trillion in military spending, which Romney has denied multiple times. Still going with the “nu-uh/yeah-huh” back and forth there apparently.

  • Med Student

    And the president just doubled down on 5 trillion in tax cuts/2 trillion in military spending, which Romney has denied multiple times. Still going with the “nu-uh/yeah-huh” back and forth there apparently.

  • Tom Hering

    So far, Romney is doing much better than the President. He’s coming across with a happy passion, and is sure of his words. While the President seems tired, and a bit hesitant at times.

  • Tom Hering

    So far, Romney is doing much better than the President. He’s coming across with a happy passion, and is sure of his words. While the President seems tired, and a bit hesitant at times.

  • Cincinnatus

    Romney is boring and wonky.

    But that was a pretty nice tactic making it seem as if the debate set up is structured against him.

  • Cincinnatus

    Romney is boring and wonky.

    But that was a pretty nice tactic making it seem as if the debate set up is structured against him.

  • Charles

    Romney 1, Obama 0

  • Charles

    Romney 1, Obama 0

  • Cincinnatus

    Ok, much as I dislike the guy, I agree with Tom: Romney is winning so far.

    But seriously: how many viewers recognize the reference to Bowles-Simpson?

  • Cincinnatus

    Ok, much as I dislike the guy, I agree with Tom: Romney is winning so far.

    But seriously: how many viewers recognize the reference to Bowles-Simpson?

  • Cincinnatus

    I dislike Romney, not Tom, btw***

  • Cincinnatus

    I dislike Romney, not Tom, btw***

  • Kimberly

    I like the idea of sending programs back to the States for efficiency.

  • Kimberly

    I like the idea of sending programs back to the States for efficiency.

  • Charles

    Would like to know if by attrition with government employees, if Romney means strength or size or numbers. If he means numbers, that doesn’t match up with his claim in Segment 1 to be about creating jobs.

  • Charles

    Would like to know if by attrition with government employees, if Romney means strength or size or numbers. If he means numbers, that doesn’t match up with his claim in Segment 1 to be about creating jobs.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    There are three ways to address the deficit. . . .Raise taxes; cut programs; grow the economy

    Romney is showing systematic thinking and appealing logic. He’s also shooting down Obama’s standard claims against him. (Romney’s doing much better than I expected! I’ll give him credit.)

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    There are three ways to address the deficit. . . .Raise taxes; cut programs; grow the economy

    Romney is showing systematic thinking and appealing logic. He’s also shooting down Obama’s standard claims against him. (Romney’s doing much better than I expected! I’ll give him credit.)

  • Cincinnatus

    Romney *zing* on the deficit.

  • Cincinnatus

    Romney *zing* on the deficit.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “You’ve had four years!”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “You’ve had four years!”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    The moderator is feeding Obama answers!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    The moderator is feeding Obama answers!

  • Jon

    Obama comes off as a glib academician.

  • Jon

    Obama comes off as a glib academician.

  • The Jones

    WOW! That is going to be HUGE.
    Mittens: “You’ve had four years!”
    Barry: “…yeah.”

  • The Jones

    WOW! That is going to be HUGE.
    Mittens: “You’ve had four years!”
    Barry: “…yeah.”

  • Kimberly

    How did he go from corporate taxes to overcrowded classrooms? I missed the logic in that line of thought.

  • Kimberly

    How did he go from corporate taxes to overcrowded classrooms? I missed the logic in that line of thought.

  • MarkB

    How interesting that Obama’s opening statement makes him sound like a conservative.

  • MarkB

    How interesting that Obama’s opening statement makes him sound like a conservative.

  • Charles

    Romney taking out Big Bird! Oh the humanity!

  • Charles

    Romney taking out Big Bird! Oh the humanity!

  • Jon

    Obama is talking past the common guy it seems to me. I’m surprised. Where is the black preacher persona?

  • Jon

    Obama is talking past the common guy it seems to me. I’m surprised. Where is the black preacher persona?

  • Cincinnatus

    Is it just me or was the moderator spoon-feeding Obama answers?

  • Cincinnatus

    Is it just me or was the moderator spoon-feeding Obama answers?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama keeps nodding. Is he agreeing with Romney?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama keeps nodding. Is he agreeing with Romney?

  • Charles

    After Section 2 the score is
    Romney 1.5 Obama 0

  • Charles

    After Section 2 the score is
    Romney 1.5 Obama 0

  • Abby

    Romney quotes:
    “No tax cut that adds to the deficit. I am not in favor of a 5 trillion dollar tax cut.”
    “I will lower taxes on middle income families.”
    “50% of small businesses pay taxes based on individual tax rate not the corporate rate. I will lower their rates. I am about jobs.”
    “50% of what is earned by a small business is taxes. And you, Mr. President, want to raise their tax rate even higher.”
    “23 million people out of work. 47 million people on food stamps.”
    “It is not moral to keep spending more than we’re taking in and passing on that debt to the next generations.”
    “Raising taxes slows down the rate of growth.”
    “I’m not going to keep spending money on things and borrowing money from China to pay for them.”
    “The President has doubled the national debt.”
    “The revenue I get is by more people working and paying more into taxes. I will not raise taxes.”

  • Abby

    Romney quotes:
    “No tax cut that adds to the deficit. I am not in favor of a 5 trillion dollar tax cut.”
    “I will lower taxes on middle income families.”
    “50% of small businesses pay taxes based on individual tax rate not the corporate rate. I will lower their rates. I am about jobs.”
    “50% of what is earned by a small business is taxes. And you, Mr. President, want to raise their tax rate even higher.”
    “23 million people out of work. 47 million people on food stamps.”
    “It is not moral to keep spending more than we’re taking in and passing on that debt to the next generations.”
    “Raising taxes slows down the rate of growth.”
    “I’m not going to keep spending money on things and borrowing money from China to pay for them.”
    “The President has doubled the national debt.”
    “The revenue I get is by more people working and paying more into taxes. I will not raise taxes.”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama giving Romney a pass on Social Security, saying they agree on that. That takes the “third rail” weapon out of the Democrats’ hands!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama giving Romney a pass on Social Security, saying they agree on that. That takes the “third rail” weapon out of the Democrats’ hands!

  • MarkB

    @42

    Of course.

  • MarkB

    @42

    Of course.

  • Tom Hering

    The President needs to stop playing defense.

  • Tom Hering

    The President needs to stop playing defense.

  • Jon

    Entitlements?

    How about food stamps!

  • Jon

    Entitlements?

    How about food stamps!

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@48: Agreed. He’s looking pretty awful right now, rhetorically speaking. I mean, I knew he wasn’t a great public speaker, but sheesh. He’s certainly no Clinton.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@48: Agreed. He’s looking pretty awful right now, rhetorically speaking. I mean, I knew he wasn’t a great public speaker, but sheesh. He’s certainly no Clinton.

  • MarkB

    @48

    Make that lame duck president

  • MarkB

    @48

    Make that lame duck president

  • Med Student

    Good points on the Medicare cuts. claiming it won’t affect seniors since the cuts are to providers is just semantics – docs aren’t going to take insurance (at least not as much) that pays poorly compared to private insurance (same issue w/ Medicaid)

  • Med Student

    Good points on the Medicare cuts. claiming it won’t affect seniors since the cuts are to providers is just semantics – docs aren’t going to take insurance (at least not as much) that pays poorly compared to private insurance (same issue w/ Medicaid)

  • Abby

    “716 billion dollar in cuts to Medicare — for current Medicare patients under President Obama’s plan.”

  • Abby

    “716 billion dollar in cuts to Medicare — for current Medicare patients under President Obama’s plan.”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Why, in Obama’s view, are vouchers for Medicare recipients to buy insurance so bad, when THAT’S WHAT OBAMACARE DOES?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Why, in Obama’s view, are vouchers for Medicare recipients to buy insurance so bad, when THAT’S WHAT OBAMACARE DOES?

  • Cincinnatus

    What did Obama mean when saying that SS is “structurally sound”? I thought the problem was that it was structurally unsound, requiring means-testing or other reforms if it is to be sound in the future?

    Hmm.

  • Cincinnatus

    What did Obama mean when saying that SS is “structurally sound”? I thought the problem was that it was structurally unsound, requiring means-testing or other reforms if it is to be sound in the future?

    Hmm.

  • Kimberly

    A voucher system sounds better than doctors who won’t take Medicare payments because they don’t cover expenses. And it makes people plan ahead more than rely on the government to cover them.

  • Kimberly

    A voucher system sounds better than doctors who won’t take Medicare payments because they don’t cover expenses. And it makes people plan ahead more than rely on the government to cover them.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    That’s funny how now Obama and Democrats, as in the convention, are now embracing the term “Obamacare.” Not that long ago, Democrats were personally offended by that word.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    That’s funny how now Obama and Democrats, as in the convention, are now embracing the term “Obamacare.” Not that long ago, Democrats were personally offended by that word.

  • Susan

    Is it me or does Obama appear to not understand what he’s talking about when addressing the topics?

  • Susan

    Is it me or does Obama appear to not understand what he’s talking about when addressing the topics?

  • Jon

    Yeah, I thought Soc Sec was broke. Why are they both saying or Obama at least saying they are both saying it is structurally sound?

  • Jon

    Yeah, I thought Soc Sec was broke. Why are they both saying or Obama at least saying they are both saying it is structurally sound?

  • Cincinnatus

    But if we defund PBS, who will consider things? Much less all of them!

  • Cincinnatus

    But if we defund PBS, who will consider things? Much less all of them!

  • Med Student

    AARP doesn’t want changes to Medicare – they make way too much money currently off selling supplemental plans…

  • Med Student

    AARP doesn’t want changes to Medicare – they make way too much money currently off selling supplemental plans…

  • Kimberly

    Poor Mr. Leher trying to keep the boys on topic and time!

  • Kimberly

    Poor Mr. Leher trying to keep the boys on topic and time!

  • Abby

    “The private sector is able to provide a better product at a lower cost. (Health insurance)”
    “Younger people will be able to choose between traditional Medicare, or a private plan.”

  • Abby

    “The private sector is able to provide a better product at a lower cost. (Health insurance)”
    “Younger people will be able to choose between traditional Medicare, or a private plan.”

  • SKPeterson

    He means it is structurally sound under his watch, but look out! it could all go to hell in a handbasket in a jif.

  • SKPeterson

    He means it is structurally sound under his watch, but look out! it could all go to hell in a handbasket in a jif.

  • Cincinnatus

    Dodd-Frank is a monstrosity. If I were Obama, I’d just pretend it didn’t happen.

    Which is pretty much what he’s doing now: not actually talking about its god-awful provisions.

  • Cincinnatus

    Dodd-Frank is a monstrosity. If I were Obama, I’d just pretend it didn’t happen.

    Which is pretty much what he’s doing now: not actually talking about its god-awful provisions.

  • Charles

    What do ya’ll think of Romney continuing to talk over Lehrer and Obama not? Is Romney bullying him or trying to make this a real debate without the soundbytes?

  • Charles

    What do ya’ll think of Romney continuing to talk over Lehrer and Obama not? Is Romney bullying him or trying to make this a real debate without the soundbytes?

  • Kimberly

    Romney said he wants to repeal parts of the bank laws, not the whole thing. Please be accurate, Mr. President.

  • Kimberly

    Romney said he wants to repeal parts of the bank laws, not the whole thing. Please be accurate, Mr. President.

  • Abby

    Good response: “I wouldn’t designate 5 banks as too big to fail and give them big checks.”

  • Abby

    Good response: “I wouldn’t designate 5 banks as too big to fail and give them big checks.”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney: I don’t want to repeal Dodd-Frank.

    Obama: Mr. Romney wants to repeal Dodd-Frank.

    Romney: No, I don’t!

    Obama: Mr. Romney wants to get rid of all the regulations.

    Romney: No, I don’t!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney: I don’t want to repeal Dodd-Frank.

    Obama: Mr. Romney wants to repeal Dodd-Frank.

    Romney: No, I don’t!

    Obama: Mr. Romney wants to get rid of all the regulations.

    Romney: No, I don’t!

  • Cincinnatus

    @66: I think media folks will perceive it as rude, but it seems to be a fairly effective appeal to the populist base. Tea Party types traditionally view the moderators as hostile partisans in the back pocket of the Democrats.

  • Cincinnatus

    @66: I think media folks will perceive it as rude, but it seems to be a fairly effective appeal to the populist base. Tea Party types traditionally view the moderators as hostile partisans in the back pocket of the Democrats.

  • Abby

    “Obamacare has killed jobs.”

  • Abby

    “Obamacare has killed jobs.”

  • Jon

    Maybe it’s me, but Romney actually seems like he’s connecting more to what the average Joe is concerned about. He seems more straight forward in his approach for what to do.

  • Jon

    Maybe it’s me, but Romney actually seems like he’s connecting more to what the average Joe is concerned about. He seems more straight forward in his approach for what to do.

  • MarkB

    Romney cannot afford to let Obama get away with defining him orhis plan. And he is doing that, sometimes he has to break in on both Obama and the moderator.

  • MarkB

    Romney cannot afford to let Obama get away with defining him orhis plan. And he is doing that, sometimes he has to break in on both Obama and the moderator.

  • dust

    Charles….Romney has to defend himself against the errors in the President’s responses….he can’t let those things pass, and he has to correct them while they are fresh, wouldn’t you do the same?

    Romney is not saying too many things which are incorrect about the President, so POTUS doesn’t need to defend himself, and that let’s him look cool…well, at least to you :)

    cheers!

  • dust

    Charles….Romney has to defend himself against the errors in the President’s responses….he can’t let those things pass, and he has to correct them while they are fresh, wouldn’t you do the same?

    Romney is not saying too many things which are incorrect about the President, so POTUS doesn’t need to defend himself, and that let’s him look cool…well, at least to you :)

    cheers!

  • Med Student

    I’ve been wondering…in what universe are 26 yr-olds still children?

  • Med Student

    I’ve been wondering…in what universe are 26 yr-olds still children?

  • dust

    does anyone else think Jim the moderator looks a little like Grandpa in the Munsters :)

    cheers!

  • dust

    does anyone else think Jim the moderator looks a little like Grandpa in the Munsters :)

    cheers!

  • Jon

    If states want to do an Obamneycare, they should be able to do it!

    But the feds have now taken it all away from them and federalized it!

    Hit him Mitt!

  • Jon

    If states want to do an Obamneycare, they should be able to do it!

    But the feds have now taken it all away from them and federalized it!

    Hit him Mitt!

  • Kimberly

    What works for one small-to-medium sized STATE cannot be extrapolated to the whole country! At least when no one had a chance to read and digest the whole bill.

  • Kimberly

    What works for one small-to-medium sized STATE cannot be extrapolated to the whole country! At least when no one had a chance to read and digest the whole bill.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama praises Romneycare. That should re-assure the general public that Romney is not a demon. Obama says his health care plan is a Republican idea. So why is he opposing Romney and the Republicans?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Obama praises Romneycare. That should re-assure the general public that Romney is not a demon. Obama says his health care plan is a Republican idea. So why is he opposing Romney and the Republicans?

  • Jon

    Dr. Veith, you need more power. I think you are reaching bandwidth capacity. The site is cutting out.

  • Jon

    Dr. Veith, you need more power. I think you are reaching bandwidth capacity. The site is cutting out.

  • Abby

    “An unelected, appointed board to determine healthcare decisions that are allowed. It is my experience that the government cannot bring down the cost of anything.”

  • Abby

    “An unelected, appointed board to determine healthcare decisions that are allowed. It is my experience that the government cannot bring down the cost of anything.”

  • Jon

    I don’t think Obama is making point glorifying Romneycare!

  • Jon

    I don’t think Obama is making point glorifying Romneycare!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    So we’re crashing the internet? I don’t know what to do about that. I agree that I need more power. Romney and Obama think THEY need more power.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    So we’re crashing the internet? I don’t know what to do about that. I agree that I need more power. Romney and Obama think THEY need more power.

  • Tom Hering

    Romney is starting look overbearing. It could hurt him if he keeps it up.

  • Tom Hering

    Romney is starting look overbearing. It could hurt him if he keeps it up.

  • Jon

    Are we really honestly in need of 100,000 more math and science teachers?

    The teacher unions are cheering.

  • Jon

    Are we really honestly in need of 100,000 more math and science teachers?

    The teacher unions are cheering.

  • Charles

    Romney just lost the atheist vote with his “same God” comment.

  • Charles

    Romney just lost the atheist vote with his “same God” comment.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney explicating the Constitution! Good move.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney explicating the Constitution! Good move.

  • Jon

    Great statement until he said children of the same god. ugh. shiver.

  • Jon

    Great statement until he said children of the same god. ugh. shiver.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “Trickle down government”! Great line.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    “Trickle down government”! Great line.

  • Kimberly

    He should have left God out of it. I’m not a child of his god. But Romney could have said the gov’t should protect those inalienable rights.

  • Kimberly

    He should have left God out of it. I’m not a child of his god. But Romney could have said the gov’t should protect those inalienable rights.

  • Pete

    For the southerners here – don’t you think Romney has pretty much opened a fresh can of you-know-what here tonight?

  • Pete

    For the southerners here – don’t you think Romney has pretty much opened a fresh can of you-know-what here tonight?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    The government’s takeover of the student loan industry certainly hasn’t reduced the cost of higher education! Also, why do community colleges working with businesses require “support” from the federal government?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    The government’s takeover of the student loan industry certainly hasn’t reduced the cost of higher education! Also, why do community colleges working with businesses require “support” from the federal government?

  • Jon

    Not entitled to your own facts. Great line.

    90 Billion in “green jobs”! Sheesh!

  • Jon

    Not entitled to your own facts. Great line.

    90 Billion in “green jobs”! Sheesh!

  • http://www.whenisayrunrun.blogspot.com Andrew

    Gettin’ Real with the Constitution!

  • http://www.whenisayrunrun.blogspot.com Andrew

    Gettin’ Real with the Constitution!

  • Tom Hering

    In what world exactly do we have the best health statistics?

  • Tom Hering

    In what world exactly do we have the best health statistics?

  • Abby

    “90 billion dollars into green jobs. Govt is not to pick winners and losers. I don’t want to cut commitment to education. I want to make it more effective.”

  • Abby

    “90 billion dollars into green jobs. Govt is not to pick winners and losers. I don’t want to cut commitment to education. I want to make it more effective.”

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney, you’ve been doing well. Don’t over-reach! Don’t get over-aggressive! You don’t need to do that.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney, you’ve been doing well. Don’t over-reach! Don’t get over-aggressive! You don’t need to do that.

  • MarkB

    Great line about you are entitled to your own plane, your own house, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

  • MarkB

    Great line about you are entitled to your own plane, your own house, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

  • Tom Hering

    Not entitled to your own facts. Great line.

    You bet. A Democrat said it originally.

  • Tom Hering

    Not entitled to your own facts. Great line.

    You bet. A Democrat said it originally.

  • Jon

    Here come the spin meisters next.

    Should I bother to watch any of them do their thing afterwards, or just let it sink in for a while?

  • Jon

    Here come the spin meisters next.

    Should I bother to watch any of them do their thing afterwards, or just let it sink in for a while?

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney’s theme of working with Democrats in a non-partisan way, as he had to do in his 87% Democratic legislature in Massachusetts, is an interesting motif.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Romney’s theme of working with Democrats in a non-partisan way, as he had to do in his 87% Democratic legislature in Massachusetts, is an interesting motif.

  • Jon

    I’ll listen to anybody as long as they agree with me and my approach to governing from the top.

    In other words, my way or the highway.

    Great leadership.

  • Jon

    I’ll listen to anybody as long as they agree with me and my approach to governing from the top.

    In other words, my way or the highway.

    Great leadership.

  • MarkB

    Does it seem to anyone else that Obama keeps trying to smile, but his scowl keeps popping through?

  • MarkB

    Does it seem to anyone else that Obama keeps trying to smile, but his scowl keeps popping through?

  • Charles

    Romney is connecting with the average American and showing he has great zeal to be President; Obama looks annoyed and bothered he is being questioned about anything. Romney wins this one!

  • Charles

    Romney is connecting with the average American and showing he has great zeal to be President; Obama looks annoyed and bothered he is being questioned about anything. Romney wins this one!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    So Obama comes back attacking Republicans.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    So Obama comes back attacking Republicans.

  • MarkB

    @104

    I agree totally.

  • MarkB

    @104

    I agree totally.

  • Tom Hering

    Look at the camera and make your summation to the people Mr. President! Not the moderator.

  • Tom Hering

    Look at the camera and make your summation to the people Mr. President! Not the moderator.

  • Kimberly

    I think Romney’s making more promises than he can deliver on…not too different than the President in that regard.

  • Kimberly

    I think Romney’s making more promises than he can deliver on…not too different than the President in that regard.

  • Tom Hering

    Holy cow. Who knew the President could look so bad that Romney looks great by contrast.

  • Tom Hering

    Holy cow. Who knew the President could look so bad that Romney looks great by contrast.

  • Charles

    @Tom Hering – You are so right. DId you notice how often Romney addressed the President and watched him when he talked? Obama looked at Lehrer and his podium mostly.

  • Charles

    @Tom Hering – You are so right. DId you notice how often Romney addressed the President and watched him when he talked? Obama looked at Lehrer and his podium mostly.

  • Jon

    I give it to Romney tonight.

    Thanks, Dr. Veith. Fun forum!

  • Jon

    I give it to Romney tonight.

    Thanks, Dr. Veith. Fun forum!

  • Charles

    That was fun Dr. Veith. Thanks so much. Hope we can do it again.

  • Charles

    That was fun Dr. Veith. Thanks so much. Hope we can do it again.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I have not been a fan of Romney, but I’ve got to give him credit: He did very, very well.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    I have not been a fan of Romney, but I’ve got to give him credit: He did very, very well.

  • Kimberly

    Yes, this was a great idea. It got me all the way through the debate and I got to hear opinions from folks much wiser than I. Thanks, Dr. Veith!

  • Kimberly

    Yes, this was a great idea. It got me all the way through the debate and I got to hear opinions from folks much wiser than I. Thanks, Dr. Veith!

  • Med Student

    I liked mostly just listening (I was attempting to simultaneously study, so I wasn’t looking at the screen). Allows you to focus on what they’re saying and not necessarily how they’re saying it. Although you could argue that appearance is important for presidents too…

  • Med Student

    I liked mostly just listening (I was attempting to simultaneously study, so I wasn’t looking at the screen). Allows you to focus on what they’re saying and not necessarily how they’re saying it. Although you could argue that appearance is important for presidents too…

  • Grace

    Jon @88

    You’re right we don’t worship the same God. Romney’s god is not the God of the Bible.

    REGARDING: Michael the Archangel, and angel – not God ALMIGHTY or God the Son Jesus Christ to whom the JW’s believe is Jesus Christ.

    Our LORD was never Michael the Archangel. The LORD created everything, including the angels, HE did not create HIMSELF.

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    Revelation 4:11

    “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth.”

    A Sermon by President Brigham Young,
    Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852. Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, page 50

    Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
    Isaiah 43:10

    I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
    Isaiah 44:6

    The god of those who believe God was Michael the Archangel is a counterfeit god. Michael the Archangel was an angel, created by the LORD.

  • Grace

    Jon @88

    You’re right we don’t worship the same God. Romney’s god is not the God of the Bible.

    REGARDING: Michael the Archangel, and angel – not God ALMIGHTY or God the Son Jesus Christ to whom the JW’s believe is Jesus Christ.

    Our LORD was never Michael the Archangel. The LORD created everything, including the angels, HE did not create HIMSELF.

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
    Revelation 4:11

    “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth.”

    A Sermon by President Brigham Young,
    Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852. Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, page 50

    Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
    Isaiah 43:10

    I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
    Isaiah 44:6

    The god of those who believe God was Michael the Archangel is a counterfeit god. Michael the Archangel was an angel, created by the LORD.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Thanks, everybody. This worked well, I think. I appreciate your contributions. Tomorrow we’ll discuss the debate as a whole. I’m on Eastern Time here, so it’s bed time for me. Farewell!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Thanks, everybody. This worked well, I think. I appreciate your contributions. Tomorrow we’ll discuss the debate as a whole. I’m on Eastern Time here, so it’s bed time for me. Farewell!

  • Grace

    Those who believe God Almighty to be something other than God, the only God and then try and foist that belief upon others, who know the Word of God, has taken the liberty of underestimating those who have studed HIS Word and believe in God as the ONLY God.

    You’ve only had a taste of what’s ahead!

  • Grace

    Those who believe God Almighty to be something other than God, the only God and then try and foist that belief upon others, who know the Word of God, has taken the liberty of underestimating those who have studed HIS Word and believe in God as the ONLY God.

    You’ve only had a taste of what’s ahead!

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Even the liberal commentators are saying how effective Romney was. The MSNBC folks like Chris Matthews are ranting against Obama for not doing better!

    I’ve got to tear myself away. Good night.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Even the liberal commentators are saying how effective Romney was. The MSNBC folks like Chris Matthews are ranting against Obama for not doing better!

    I’ve got to tear myself away. Good night.

  • http://www.whenisayrunrun.blogspot.com Andrew

    My brain kept wandering back to Luther and Wingren. Our political and domestic economies are terribly confused let alone our confusion of the two kingdoms in this country.

  • http://www.whenisayrunrun.blogspot.com Andrew

    My brain kept wandering back to Luther and Wingren. Our political and domestic economies are terribly confused let alone our confusion of the two kingdoms in this country.

  • MarkB

    Thank you Dr. Veith, that was fun and informative. I really enjoyed live blogging with other people who did not necessarily share my political views. It helps me to get a better understanding of how other people perceive what is happening before our collective eyes.

  • MarkB

    Thank you Dr. Veith, that was fun and informative. I really enjoyed live blogging with other people who did not necessarily share my political views. It helps me to get a better understanding of how other people perceive what is happening before our collective eyes.

  • Jon

    Grace , did you watch the debate?

    What if Romney wins? What will you do if he is actually an effective leader and successfully moves the country out of this morass?

    Would that be divine providence? How could that happen, if Romney is in a cult?

  • Jon

    Grace , did you watch the debate?

    What if Romney wins? What will you do if he is actually an effective leader and successfully moves the country out of this morass?

    Would that be divine providence? How could that happen, if Romney is in a cult?

  • Grace

    Jon @122

    If Romney wins, and becomes successful does not make him a Godly man. There have been many wealthy brilliant ungodly men throughout history, that doesn’t mean they follow the God of the Bible.

    Do you think everyone who makes it in this world (leader, wealth) is by divine providence?

  • Grace

    Jon @122

    If Romney wins, and becomes successful does not make him a Godly man. There have been many wealthy brilliant ungodly men throughout history, that doesn’t mean they follow the God of the Bible.

    Do you think everyone who makes it in this world (leader, wealth) is by divine providence?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Well, shoot. I missed the debate. I guess I’ll have to watch the cherry-picked highlights on TV. And read this thread, of course. When I have time.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Well, shoot. I missed the debate. I guess I’ll have to watch the cherry-picked highlights on TV. And read this thread, of course. When I have time.

  • M D

    Jon @122

    God used Nebuchadnezzar and Pharoah and Cyrus for His divine purposes too.

  • M D

    Jon @122

    God used Nebuchadnezzar and Pharoah and Cyrus for His divine purposes too.

  • Grace

    Student @ 125

    Did God use men who were leaders last century and before, who abused those in their countries, who killed and maimed, to be a “devine purpose” of God.

    Think of Mussolini, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and a host of others, were they used as a “devine purpose” of God?

  • Grace

    Student @ 125

    Did God use men who were leaders last century and before, who abused those in their countries, who killed and maimed, to be a “devine purpose” of God.

    Think of Mussolini, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and a host of others, were they used as a “devine purpose” of God?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Thanks, guys. Scanning this thread was a little like hearing half a phone conversation, but I think I picked up the gist of the debate — and without having to watch a second of it! I call that win-win.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Thanks, guys. Scanning this thread was a little like hearing half a phone conversation, but I think I picked up the gist of the debate — and without having to watch a second of it! I call that win-win.

  • Helen K.

    Watched the debate but didn’t follow here as logistics in our house aren’t handy for that. Romney did far better than I had hoped. Enjoyed quickly skimming through your comments. Look forward to more comments tomorrow. I have hope again for a November 6 outcome.

  • Helen K.

    Watched the debate but didn’t follow here as logistics in our house aren’t handy for that. Romney did far better than I had hoped. Enjoyed quickly skimming through your comments. Look forward to more comments tomorrow. I have hope again for a November 6 outcome.

  • Trey

    Favorite line, paraphrase, of the debate: Mr. President… [regarding energy companies] you are trying to pick winners and losers, but you just pick the losers This drove home the point that Obama has wasted 90 billion to energy companies, who were also friends of the administration.

  • Trey

    Favorite line, paraphrase, of the debate: Mr. President… [regarding energy companies] you are trying to pick winners and losers, but you just pick the losers This drove home the point that Obama has wasted 90 billion to energy companies, who were also friends of the administration.

  • Med Student

    Grace @126
    That’s someone else at 125, just to clarify.

  • Med Student

    Grace @126
    That’s someone else at 125, just to clarify.

  • Jon

    M D @125 Yup, I agree with you. God does use whomever He will. I’ve no doubt He used Pilate and the Herrods and Caesars, too. My point is that Grace seems to be saying that we shouldn’t be voting for Romney because it is somehow not divine providence that he get elected. My point–what if it is?

  • Jon

    M D @125 Yup, I agree with you. God does use whomever He will. I’ve no doubt He used Pilate and the Herrods and Caesars, too. My point is that Grace seems to be saying that we shouldn’t be voting for Romney because it is somehow not divine providence that he get elected. My point–what if it is?

  • M D

    Jon @131
    We won’t know God’s providence until after the election. We are to vote or not vote depending on how we judge the candidates at the time.

  • M D

    Jon @131
    We won’t know God’s providence until after the election. We are to vote or not vote depending on how we judge the candidates at the time.

  • Grace

    M D

    Sorry for the mistake – Can you answer the question, as it was directed to post 126 which is you, and not Med Student.

    MY QUESTION @126 “Did God use men who were leaders last century and before, who abused those in their countries, who killed and maimed, to be a “devine purpose” of God.

    Think of Mussolini, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and a host of others, were they used as a “devine purpose” of God?

  • Grace

    M D

    Sorry for the mistake – Can you answer the question, as it was directed to post 126 which is you, and not Med Student.

    MY QUESTION @126 “Did God use men who were leaders last century and before, who abused those in their countries, who killed and maimed, to be a “devine purpose” of God.

    Think of Mussolini, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and a host of others, were they used as a “devine purpose” of God?

  • M D

    Grace @133
    Not sure if my previous comments made it on here after I submitted them earlier…
    “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God” -Romans 13:1
    Also, Pilate said to Jesus “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have authority to release you, and to crucify you?” Jesus replied “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above.” – John 19:10
    If Romney or Obama get elected, it’s only because God appointed their authority. It also doesn’t mean we don’t stop praying for their leadership and for their salvation.
    Hope this helps.

  • M D

    Grace @133
    Not sure if my previous comments made it on here after I submitted them earlier…
    “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God” -Romans 13:1
    Also, Pilate said to Jesus “Do you refuse to speak to me? Don’t you know I have authority to release you, and to crucify you?” Jesus replied “You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above.” – John 19:10
    If Romney or Obama get elected, it’s only because God appointed their authority. It also doesn’t mean we don’t stop praying for their leadership and for their salvation.
    Hope this helps.

  • Grace

    M D 134

    The passage below contradicts such a stance, which is given no credibility, since it’s weak!

    10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    _ _ ” The “Sword of the Spirit” is God’s Word the Bible.

    18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
    Ephesians 6

  • Grace

    M D 134

    The passage below contradicts such a stance, which is given no credibility, since it’s weak!

    10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    _ _ ” The “Sword of the Spirit” is God’s Word the Bible.

    18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
    Ephesians 6

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    And once again, Grace (@135), we find you flat-out denying the Word of God (notably, Romans 13). And to do so, you bring in Ephesians 6, which doesn’t actually have anything specific to do with civil authorities.

    Deny it all you want, but just know that it is God’s Word you’re denying.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    And once again, Grace (@135), we find you flat-out denying the Word of God (notably, Romans 13). And to do so, you bring in Ephesians 6, which doesn’t actually have anything specific to do with civil authorities.

    Deny it all you want, but just know that it is God’s Word you’re denying.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    You need to understand what Paul states in Ephesians. It’s a hard one to swallow if you want to agree with ungodly leaders.

    Ephesians 6 is so often overlooked, in that way, one can EXCUSE whatever the government orders, it makes no difference. It was the MAJOR EXCUSE for GERMANY WW2. All those who did what they were told, had the PERFECT EXCUSE. Do you think the rest of the Christian world didn’t see it, or that they have over-looked the horrific war which killed 6 million Jews?

    NO ONE has FORGOTTEN!

  • Grace

    tODD,

    You need to understand what Paul states in Ephesians. It’s a hard one to swallow if you want to agree with ungodly leaders.

    Ephesians 6 is so often overlooked, in that way, one can EXCUSE whatever the government orders, it makes no difference. It was the MAJOR EXCUSE for GERMANY WW2. All those who did what they were told, had the PERFECT EXCUSE. Do you think the rest of the Christian world didn’t see it, or that they have over-looked the horrific war which killed 6 million Jews?

    NO ONE has FORGOTTEN!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Grace (@137), I believe what Paul writes in Ephesians 6. And I also believe what he writes in Romans 13.

    You, on the other hand, deny what God says in Romans 13. You can make all the excuses you want, dragging in (as you often do) something about Germans or WWII in to justify your (unbiblical) position.

    And yet, here we are: you deny the plain Word of God in Romans 13.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Grace (@137), I believe what Paul writes in Ephesians 6. And I also believe what he writes in Romans 13.

    You, on the other hand, deny what God says in Romans 13. You can make all the excuses you want, dragging in (as you often do) something about Germans or WWII in to justify your (unbiblical) position.

    And yet, here we are: you deny the plain Word of God in Romans 13.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    You can twist Romans 13, but worse yet, twist what I state as to WW2, and then grumble about Ephesians 6. All in attempt to make WW2 a just war. It’s bogus, the churches around the world see it, and so do I.

    No one, not even one person is demanded to do that which God Almighty states to be sin.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    You can twist Romans 13, but worse yet, twist what I state as to WW2, and then grumble about Ephesians 6. All in attempt to make WW2 a just war. It’s bogus, the churches around the world see it, and so do I.

    No one, not even one person is demanded to do that which God Almighty states to be sin.

  • M D

    Grace,
    No one here is saying that we should do something against God just to go along with a government. At least in America, the people have a vote to change laws, presidents, etc.
    But to the matter of divine providence, there is no twist to Romans 13:1 It says what it says. You either believe it or you do not. All authority in heaven and under heaven is instituted by God alone.

    I highly encourage you to read Romans, the whole book, again if you haven’t done so in a while. It will bless you and I pray the Holy Spirit grants you understanding and wisdom in your reading.

  • M D

    Grace,
    No one here is saying that we should do something against God just to go along with a government. At least in America, the people have a vote to change laws, presidents, etc.
    But to the matter of divine providence, there is no twist to Romans 13:1 It says what it says. You either believe it or you do not. All authority in heaven and under heaven is instituted by God alone.

    I highly encourage you to read Romans, the whole book, again if you haven’t done so in a while. It will bless you and I pray the Holy Spirit grants you understanding and wisdom in your reading.

  • Grace

    M D

    GOD is Sovereign, but HIS Will is not always done as you can see below.

    Below is an excellent example of GOD’s Will being rejected, and what happened because of it.

    4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
    5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways:make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
    6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
    7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 8

    As you can see the people of Israel wanted a king, it was not GOD’S Will that they have a king. Samuel’s sons are an excuse, but the people are rejecting GOD’s sovereignty, that is the real problem.

    8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
    9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
    10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
    11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
    12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
    13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
    14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
    15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
    16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
    17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
    18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

    Samuel WARNS Israel how their lives will be with a king. The worst part, “the LORD will not hear you in that day. How often little man demands and wants things that are obviously AGAINST GOD’S Will, but GOD lets them have their way – much to their grief later on -

    19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
    20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
    21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
    22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

    GOD is giving the people want they want, which is THEIR OWN WAY. We see this today in our own lives, in our own country. GOD didn’t speak directly to the king, but through the prophet who SPEAKS to the king and tells him GOD’S Word to the king.

  • Grace

    M D

    GOD is Sovereign, but HIS Will is not always done as you can see below.

    Below is an excellent example of GOD’s Will being rejected, and what happened because of it.

    4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
    5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways:make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
    6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
    7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1 Samuel 8

    As you can see the people of Israel wanted a king, it was not GOD’S Will that they have a king. Samuel’s sons are an excuse, but the people are rejecting GOD’s sovereignty, that is the real problem.

    8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
    9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
    10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
    11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
    12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
    13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
    14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
    15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
    16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
    17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
    18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

    Samuel WARNS Israel how their lives will be with a king. The worst part, “the LORD will not hear you in that day. How often little man demands and wants things that are obviously AGAINST GOD’S Will, but GOD lets them have their way – much to their grief later on -

    19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
    20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
    21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
    22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

    GOD is giving the people want they want, which is THEIR OWN WAY. We see this today in our own lives, in our own country. GOD didn’t speak directly to the king, but through the prophet who SPEAKS to the king and tells him GOD’S Word to the king.

  • Grace

    19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.

    The people had their own way, they got their king, but it was never GOD’S Will. Now they are asking for help, they don’t want to die.

    20 And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart;
    21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
    22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
    23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way:
    24 Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you.
    25 But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.

    From these passages both this post and the first one on 1 Samuel it’s obvious that GOD’S Will is not always followed. When man chooses his own way, he just might get it, which will be to his folly.

    GOD help us as we seek HIS Will, and speak to others about our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.

  • Grace

    19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.

    The people had their own way, they got their king, but it was never GOD’S Will. Now they are asking for help, they don’t want to die.

    20 And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart;
    21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
    22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
    23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way:
    24 Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you.
    25 But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.

    From these passages both this post and the first one on 1 Samuel it’s obvious that GOD’S Will is not always followed. When man chooses his own way, he just might get it, which will be to his folly.

    GOD help us as we seek HIS Will, and speak to others about our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.

  • Grace

    M D

    The verse below is KEY. In the U.S. it is the people who have rejected God, they have turned from HIM, or never knew HIM to begin with. We can see this through laws passed to allow abortion, homosexual lifestyles, gender identification, and all other behavior taught in our schools. Homosexual marriage on the docket to become legal.

    And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
    1 Samuel 8:7

    I believe that God blessed this nation for a long time, HE has loved us, and protected us. However today, as this country sinks deeper into sin, one can see the difference.

    Obama’s agenda is obvious. Romney believes he will one day be a god. There is no leader running worth voting for. To partake of this election (as far as voting for a president) is wrong. One evil over another isn’t the answer. The only way one can avoid the evil is to NOT PARTICIPATE!

  • Grace

    M D

    The verse below is KEY. In the U.S. it is the people who have rejected God, they have turned from HIM, or never knew HIM to begin with. We can see this through laws passed to allow abortion, homosexual lifestyles, gender identification, and all other behavior taught in our schools. Homosexual marriage on the docket to become legal.

    And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
    1 Samuel 8:7

    I believe that God blessed this nation for a long time, HE has loved us, and protected us. However today, as this country sinks deeper into sin, one can see the difference.

    Obama’s agenda is obvious. Romney believes he will one day be a god. There is no leader running worth voting for. To partake of this election (as far as voting for a president) is wrong. One evil over another isn’t the answer. The only way one can avoid the evil is to NOT PARTICIPATE!

  • Grace

    M D

    I know what Romans 13 states.

    It does not tell us to sin against God to appease our government, or to do anything that is sinful.

    We pay our taxes, we follow the laws of our country, as long as they are not contrary to God, or they do not insist, I disobey God in any way.

    I would not follow a law which demanded I assist in an abortion, if I were a physician, or give assistence in any sort of way, which would be a sin. I would not teach or encourage children to search out their gender identification, or teach any sort of homosexual lifestyles to be normal, IF I were a school teacher.

    Respecting the laws of our country is right, but only when they do not demand I sin to do it.

    Voting is a choice, it’s not a COMMAND PERFORMANCE, or a LAW. This is the catch, all too many Christian Believers are caught up in – they believe they MUST VOTE for one candidate or the other. This is a false claim.

    One can ‘write in the name of another individual as their choice for president. Wouldn’t it be something if that individual actually won. I doubt it would happen, but it would be wonderful this election.

    Man has free will, he can choose to do evil, or choose one evil over another evil, believing its right – I disagree! One can walk away and not partake of that which is evil, which is NO CHOICE at all.

  • Grace

    M D

    I know what Romans 13 states.

    It does not tell us to sin against God to appease our government, or to do anything that is sinful.

    We pay our taxes, we follow the laws of our country, as long as they are not contrary to God, or they do not insist, I disobey God in any way.

    I would not follow a law which demanded I assist in an abortion, if I were a physician, or give assistence in any sort of way, which would be a sin. I would not teach or encourage children to search out their gender identification, or teach any sort of homosexual lifestyles to be normal, IF I were a school teacher.

    Respecting the laws of our country is right, but only when they do not demand I sin to do it.

    Voting is a choice, it’s not a COMMAND PERFORMANCE, or a LAW. This is the catch, all too many Christian Believers are caught up in – they believe they MUST VOTE for one candidate or the other. This is a false claim.

    One can ‘write in the name of another individual as their choice for president. Wouldn’t it be something if that individual actually won. I doubt it would happen, but it would be wonderful this election.

    Man has free will, he can choose to do evil, or choose one evil over another evil, believing its right – I disagree! One can walk away and not partake of that which is evil, which is NO CHOICE at all.

  • Grace

    Below is a LINK to one of the most important group of facts, and proof concerning the Mormon Church. I urge all of you to watch the video, it’s amazing.

  • Grace

    Below is a LINK to one of the most important group of facts, and proof concerning the Mormon Church. I urge all of you to watch the video, it’s amazing.

  • M D

    Grace @145
    I’ve seen that video and it is excellent. Highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know the detailed differences between the Bible and the book of Mormon.

  • M D

    Grace @145
    I’ve seen that video and it is excellent. Highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know the detailed differences between the Bible and the book of Mormon.

  • Grace

    M D @146

    I watched that video, months before the last election.

    What surprises me is this, others don’t take note of the facts, which are given credit at the end of the video. The details go even further.

    M D, why do you think people ignore the truth, regarding the LDS doctrine?

  • Grace

    M D @146

    I watched that video, months before the last election.

    What surprises me is this, others don’t take note of the facts, which are given credit at the end of the video. The details go even further.

    M D, why do you think people ignore the truth, regarding the LDS doctrine?

  • M D

    Actually, I think many don’t know the details for the most part. It’s our job to educate people in any false doctrine whether it’s Mormon or other beliefs.

    This is a good discussion on voting: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-sin-vote-mormon-or-roman-catholic/

  • M D

    Actually, I think many don’t know the details for the most part. It’s our job to educate people in any false doctrine whether it’s Mormon or other beliefs.

    This is a good discussion on voting: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-sin-vote-mormon-or-roman-catholic/

  • Grace

    M D

    Mohler can believe as he likes. I read many of Mohler’s articles, etc., I believe he makes some good points, but I doubt he has really studied the LDS Church to any great degree.

    The phrase “We’re electing a President as a Constitutional officer, not a pastor.” has now become a so called ‘bridge to fill the gap, making it a none important fact as to ones FOUNDATION. As I’ve stated before “its a mans foundation upon which his beliefs stand, what he believes will mirror his ability to lead. In the case of Mormonism, the foundation is not only false, it rests upon a man believing he will one day be a god.

  • Grace

    M D

    Mohler can believe as he likes. I read many of Mohler’s articles, etc., I believe he makes some good points, but I doubt he has really studied the LDS Church to any great degree.

    The phrase “We’re electing a President as a Constitutional officer, not a pastor.” has now become a so called ‘bridge to fill the gap, making it a none important fact as to ones FOUNDATION. As I’ve stated before “its a mans foundation upon which his beliefs stand, what he believes will mirror his ability to lead. In the case of Mormonism, the foundation is not only false, it rests upon a man believing he will one day be a god.

  • Grace

    M D

    I made a comment @33 on “Voting and the neighbor” -

    http://www.geneveith.com/2012/10/04/voting-and-the-neighbor/#comments

    That is the faulty foundation which is false, and unBiblical.

  • Grace

    M D

    I made a comment @33 on “Voting and the neighbor” -

    http://www.geneveith.com/2012/10/04/voting-and-the-neighbor/#comments

    That is the faulty foundation which is false, and unBiblical.