So who won the VP debate?

Be sure to read our live blog of the Vice Presidential debate, below.  We’ve got some good punditry here.  Who do you think won the debate?   Will this turn the tide back to Obama, keep up Romney’s new momentum, have no effect, or what?

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • MarkB

    I don’t think either of them won the debate outright. As I said during the debate in the online blog, with one person disagreeing and saying he shifted to Romney/Ryan because of this debate. Neither delivered a knock out blow. However, the sight of Biden laughing, snarking and all around being very disrespectful may shift some views. We will just have to wait and see what the polls do to see if any of this will affect the way people view either side. That is my opinion, good or bad.

  • MarkB

    I don’t think either of them won the debate outright. As I said during the debate in the online blog, with one person disagreeing and saying he shifted to Romney/Ryan because of this debate. Neither delivered a knock out blow. However, the sight of Biden laughing, snarking and all around being very disrespectful may shift some views. We will just have to wait and see what the polls do to see if any of this will affect the way people view either side. That is my opinion, good or bad.

  • Dave

    Charles Krauthammer said it best: If you read the transcripts of the debate it was a draw. If you listened to it on radio Biden won (he interrupted so much). If you saw it on TV Ryan won (Biden’s body language cost him the debate).

    Ryan held his own and I don’t think the Romney ticket lost any ground or momentum. Biden’s performance is already being converted into anti-Obama political ads. Though he was aggressive he came off as a jerk. In the end he will have done more harm than good.

  • Dave

    Charles Krauthammer said it best: If you read the transcripts of the debate it was a draw. If you listened to it on radio Biden won (he interrupted so much). If you saw it on TV Ryan won (Biden’s body language cost him the debate).

    Ryan held his own and I don’t think the Romney ticket lost any ground or momentum. Biden’s performance is already being converted into anti-Obama political ads. Though he was aggressive he came off as a jerk. In the end he will have done more harm than good.

  • Tom Hering

    Dems think Biden won, and Repubs think Ryan won. But the Dems needed a shot in the arm after Obama’s dispiriting performance, and they got it.

    What matters is what the undecideds thought, as they’ll decide this election. A CBS snap poll of undecided voters showed 50% thought Biden won, 31% thought Ryan won, and 19% thought it was a tie. Again, that’s a snap poll of undecided voters (unlike last night’s two other snap polls).

    As for Biden’s behavior, everyone thought of him as crazy old Joe going in, so his behavior didn’t hurt him.

  • Tom Hering

    Dems think Biden won, and Repubs think Ryan won. But the Dems needed a shot in the arm after Obama’s dispiriting performance, and they got it.

    What matters is what the undecideds thought, as they’ll decide this election. A CBS snap poll of undecided voters showed 50% thought Biden won, 31% thought Ryan won, and 19% thought it was a tie. Again, that’s a snap poll of undecided voters (unlike last night’s two other snap polls).

    As for Biden’s behavior, everyone thought of him as crazy old Joe going in, so his behavior didn’t hurt him.

  • The Jones

    I think Joe Biden, a little. Both candidates did what they needed to do, but Joe Biden had a bigger and more daunting job to do. Success on a longer list gives the victory to him. However, it was hardly decisive. In the next few days, we’ll see if it is even able to stop the Obama campaign’s bleeding.

  • The Jones

    I think Joe Biden, a little. Both candidates did what they needed to do, but Joe Biden had a bigger and more daunting job to do. Success on a longer list gives the victory to him. However, it was hardly decisive. In the next few days, we’ll see if it is even able to stop the Obama campaign’s bleeding.

  • Tom Hering

    … we’ll see if it is even able to stop the Obama campaign’s bleeding. (@ 4)

    I don’t expect it will. Only the President can do that with an exceptional performance in the next debate.

  • Tom Hering

    … we’ll see if it is even able to stop the Obama campaign’s bleeding. (@ 4)

    I don’t expect it will. Only the President can do that with an exceptional performance in the next debate.

  • WebMonk

    Tom, I don’t think it would take an exceptional performance for President Obama in the next debate. The bar has been set so low now, that all he needs to do is to not clearly lose the next debate and it will benefit him.

  • WebMonk

    Tom, I don’t think it would take an exceptional performance for President Obama in the next debate. The bar has been set so low now, that all he needs to do is to not clearly lose the next debate and it will benefit him.

  • Kirk

    Biden said “Malarkey.” Paul Ryan’s argument is invalid.

    But seriously, on substance, I think Biden won. On delivery, Paul Ryan had it easily. I really felt that Ryan spoke out of ignorance or nativity on a few points, particularly related to FP. He doesn’t understand embassy security (though I think that’s a bit below what a VP should be focusing on), I thought his views on Iran were simple and unrealistic, he said we’re using foreign aid to fund abortion (something that is patently untrue and extremely illegal) and I have trouble getting past his notion that a bigger defense budget means stronger national security. Biden, on the other hand, had the benefit of experience and a more complete picture that his office lends him. I thought his answers were more thorough and realistic.

    Biden, came across as a bit informal and arrogant. Laughing at your opponent during a response just isn’t presidential or becoming. I thought his delivery was, at times, a bit wordy and hasty. I felt that Paul was practiced and answered his questions clearly and with precision. He was better spoken and more composed at the podium and more respectful of Biden than Biden was of him.

    Overall, I give the edge slightly to Paul. But not by much.

  • Kirk

    Biden said “Malarkey.” Paul Ryan’s argument is invalid.

    But seriously, on substance, I think Biden won. On delivery, Paul Ryan had it easily. I really felt that Ryan spoke out of ignorance or nativity on a few points, particularly related to FP. He doesn’t understand embassy security (though I think that’s a bit below what a VP should be focusing on), I thought his views on Iran were simple and unrealistic, he said we’re using foreign aid to fund abortion (something that is patently untrue and extremely illegal) and I have trouble getting past his notion that a bigger defense budget means stronger national security. Biden, on the other hand, had the benefit of experience and a more complete picture that his office lends him. I thought his answers were more thorough and realistic.

    Biden, came across as a bit informal and arrogant. Laughing at your opponent during a response just isn’t presidential or becoming. I thought his delivery was, at times, a bit wordy and hasty. I felt that Paul was practiced and answered his questions clearly and with precision. He was better spoken and more composed at the podium and more respectful of Biden than Biden was of him.

    Overall, I give the edge slightly to Paul. But not by much.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Obama Administration end the “Mexico City Policy”–meaning that we do, in fact, fund abortions via foreign aid, even if not directly? Only a couple days after his inauguration, if I recall.

    Personally, I couldn’t watch the whole debate–the constant interruptions were annoying, and the body language was off-putting, especially when combined with the classic tendency of politicians to avoid actually answering questions in any direct fashion.

    But people, listen up: debates do not win elections. Stop pretending that they matter.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Obama Administration end the “Mexico City Policy”–meaning that we do, in fact, fund abortions via foreign aid, even if not directly? Only a couple days after his inauguration, if I recall.

    Personally, I couldn’t watch the whole debate–the constant interruptions were annoying, and the body language was off-putting, especially when combined with the classic tendency of politicians to avoid actually answering questions in any direct fashion.

    But people, listen up: debates do not win elections. Stop pretending that they matter.

  • George

    I thought that Biden more often resorted to “wild-card” phrases which I generally view as indicative of having a weak position (for example, “I can’t tell you because its classified, but we feel very secure with our policy.” or “I was talking to person X, and he said something that supports me.” Non-verifiable evidence is evidence not.

    That being said, I honestly thought that Biden was more effective in the debate. But it seems not! For I awake in the morning to find that the entire internet is going crazy about his smirking and laughing and interrupting! And the only thing people are saying about Ryan is “what great arms he has….”

    As for foreign policy, people have been saying that Ryan was naive and viewed foreign policy as “kids on a playground vying for dominance.” Well… to be honest, I think thats actually not far from the case, and one doesn’t have to look too hard to realize that Obama’s more intelligent and nuanced policy has led to us willfully removing two pro-western governments and supporting their replacement by people who want us to burn forever. I think Ryan made a decent point that is true among people and among governments, people fear strength, and they will not fear where there is nothing to fear. Now, how to apply that idea is different.

    But I like the idea of people fearing us around the world, but then again, I long for the empire…

  • George

    I thought that Biden more often resorted to “wild-card” phrases which I generally view as indicative of having a weak position (for example, “I can’t tell you because its classified, but we feel very secure with our policy.” or “I was talking to person X, and he said something that supports me.” Non-verifiable evidence is evidence not.

    That being said, I honestly thought that Biden was more effective in the debate. But it seems not! For I awake in the morning to find that the entire internet is going crazy about his smirking and laughing and interrupting! And the only thing people are saying about Ryan is “what great arms he has….”

    As for foreign policy, people have been saying that Ryan was naive and viewed foreign policy as “kids on a playground vying for dominance.” Well… to be honest, I think thats actually not far from the case, and one doesn’t have to look too hard to realize that Obama’s more intelligent and nuanced policy has led to us willfully removing two pro-western governments and supporting their replacement by people who want us to burn forever. I think Ryan made a decent point that is true among people and among governments, people fear strength, and they will not fear where there is nothing to fear. Now, how to apply that idea is different.

    But I like the idea of people fearing us around the world, but then again, I long for the empire…

  • Tom Hering

    But people, listen up: debates do not win elections. Stop pretending that they matter. (@ 8)

    Biden accomplished what he most needed to do: he re-motivated the base, a portion of which was going to stay home after Obama’s poor performance. So yeah, it mattered in a way that will affect the election.

  • Tom Hering

    But people, listen up: debates do not win elections. Stop pretending that they matter. (@ 8)

    Biden accomplished what he most needed to do: he re-motivated the base, a portion of which was going to stay home after Obama’s poor performance. So yeah, it mattered in a way that will affect the election.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: Show me the numbers. All the rest is just wishful thinking.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom: Show me the numbers. All the rest is just wishful thinking.

  • Cincinnatus

    Pace George’s point, something I noticed in the portions of the debate I could stomach was the constant reference to anecdotes to “prove” a point. I realize this is somewhat par-for-the-course in modern politics, but every time a question was asked, the answer–the only answer–seemed to be, “My mother was saved by Medicare!” or “I met a guy who knows a guy whose dog really benefits from food stamps!” or “One time, in band camp, I imagined to myself what the world would be like if taxes were higher.” Etc.

    Right there’s your postmodernism, Dr. Veith. And both sides were gleefully guilty of this narrative indulgence.

    The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”

  • Cincinnatus

    Pace George’s point, something I noticed in the portions of the debate I could stomach was the constant reference to anecdotes to “prove” a point. I realize this is somewhat par-for-the-course in modern politics, but every time a question was asked, the answer–the only answer–seemed to be, “My mother was saved by Medicare!” or “I met a guy who knows a guy whose dog really benefits from food stamps!” or “One time, in band camp, I imagined to myself what the world would be like if taxes were higher.” Etc.

    Right there’s your postmodernism, Dr. Veith. And both sides were gleefully guilty of this narrative indulgence.

    The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”

  • Tom Hering

    Cincinnatus, I showed you the numbers @ 3. We’ll have better ones after the weekend polling.

  • Tom Hering

    Cincinnatus, I showed you the numbers @ 3. We’ll have better ones after the weekend polling.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom:

    Huh? Those numbers only show that a certain arbitrarily defined–and probably rather ignorant and stupid (seriously: who is undecided at this point; SNL skit is relevant)–portion of the electorate thinks that Biden won the debate. And? I think Romney smashed his first debate, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether I will vote for him; I still can’t stand the guy.

    Meanwhile, “weekend polling”–which, as we’ve stressed elsewhere, is not predictive–could show a bump for Obama. Or maybe it won’t. Either way, though, the VP debate is probably not the critical agent of change. There are so many confounding variables that are impossible to extricate from the aggregate polling. One thing I do know, though, is that the discipline of political science is nearly unanimously agreed that VP debates do not change electoral outcomes.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom:

    Huh? Those numbers only show that a certain arbitrarily defined–and probably rather ignorant and stupid (seriously: who is undecided at this point; SNL skit is relevant)–portion of the electorate thinks that Biden won the debate. And? I think Romney smashed his first debate, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether I will vote for him; I still can’t stand the guy.

    Meanwhile, “weekend polling”–which, as we’ve stressed elsewhere, is not predictive–could show a bump for Obama. Or maybe it won’t. Either way, though, the VP debate is probably not the critical agent of change. There are so many confounding variables that are impossible to extricate from the aggregate polling. One thing I do know, though, is that the discipline of political science is nearly unanimously agreed that VP debates do not change electoral outcomes.

  • Carl Vehse

    One of Ryan’s weak points was promoting his boss’s position on abortion in the cases of rape and incest, made even more hypocritical after his clear pro-life statements. Was the vice-presidency so important to him that he was willing to pervert his Christian pro-life position?

    Biden’s response to the same question from Raddatz’s about their personal religious views on abortion was typical for this demented and pathological liar. Joe’s response is yet even more evidence why a Christian who votes for the Traitorobama ticket and remains unrepentant for it puts his soul in eternal jeopardy.

    Sadly, with both parties having descended to such abysmal ethical levels represented (one of them hypocritically) by different degrees of genocidal murder-by-abortion, the voter’s choice of levers to pull in November appear to be the ones that open trapdoors to different heights of gallows for America.

  • Carl Vehse

    One of Ryan’s weak points was promoting his boss’s position on abortion in the cases of rape and incest, made even more hypocritical after his clear pro-life statements. Was the vice-presidency so important to him that he was willing to pervert his Christian pro-life position?

    Biden’s response to the same question from Raddatz’s about their personal religious views on abortion was typical for this demented and pathological liar. Joe’s response is yet even more evidence why a Christian who votes for the Traitorobama ticket and remains unrepentant for it puts his soul in eternal jeopardy.

    Sadly, with both parties having descended to such abysmal ethical levels represented (one of them hypocritically) by different degrees of genocidal murder-by-abortion, the voter’s choice of levers to pull in November appear to be the ones that open trapdoors to different heights of gallows for America.

  • fws

    Biden did what he needed to do.

  • fws

    Biden did what he needed to do.

  • Kirk

    @14 Yes, Obama did rescind the Mexico City policy, but foreign aid is still beholden to the Helms Amendment which prohibits it from being used to fund or promote abortions. Under the Mexico City Policy, USAID can’t provide funding to organizations that promote or perform abortions, even if that money is not being used for abortions.

    So, right now, USAID can provide funding to pro-abortion organizations, but not for abortion services or promotion.

  • Kirk

    @14 Yes, Obama did rescind the Mexico City policy, but foreign aid is still beholden to the Helms Amendment which prohibits it from being used to fund or promote abortions. Under the Mexico City Policy, USAID can’t provide funding to organizations that promote or perform abortions, even if that money is not being used for abortions.

    So, right now, USAID can provide funding to pro-abortion organizations, but not for abortion services or promotion.

  • Carl Vehse

    @16: “Biden did what he needed to do.”

    In the sense that Joseph Goebbels or “Baghdad Bob” did what they needed to do.

  • Carl Vehse

    @16: “Biden did what he needed to do.”

    In the sense that Joseph Goebbels or “Baghdad Bob” did what they needed to do.

  • kerner

    People are saying that Biden “won” because he was aggressive. Others are saying that he “energized his base” (as Obama did not) but was off putting to the persuadable middle. There is a fine line between looking strong and aggressive and looking like a smirking bully, and the republicans are already trying to comvince people that Biden was just being the latter:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/10/11/rnc_web_ad_laughing_at_the_issues.html

  • kerner

    People are saying that Biden “won” because he was aggressive. Others are saying that he “energized his base” (as Obama did not) but was off putting to the persuadable middle. There is a fine line between looking strong and aggressive and looking like a smirking bully, and the republicans are already trying to comvince people that Biden was just being the latter:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/10/11/rnc_web_ad_laughing_at_the_issues.html

  • kerner

    Kirk @17:
    “So, right now, USAID can provide funding to pro-abortion organizations, but not for abortion services or promotion.”

    Soooo…..you’re saying that all we need to do is a little money laundering?

  • kerner

    Kirk @17:
    “So, right now, USAID can provide funding to pro-abortion organizations, but not for abortion services or promotion.”

    Soooo…..you’re saying that all we need to do is a little money laundering?

  • fjsteve

    For everyone who says Biden won, that’s a whole lot of stuff. He might have energized the base with his zingers but he was seriously un-presidential with his snickering and hot-headed answers. And his forty year old Democrat arguments. Seriously? Republicans just want to throw your parents out of their homes and steal your kids lunch money. Same stuff, different election cycle. Based on the argument that Palin was not ready to be president (and I’m no Palin fan, mind you), Biden showed why not to vote for the O-B ticket. But, that’s just me. We’ll have to see what the numbers say. All I have to say is Biden is full of stuff.

  • fjsteve

    For everyone who says Biden won, that’s a whole lot of stuff. He might have energized the base with his zingers but he was seriously un-presidential with his snickering and hot-headed answers. And his forty year old Democrat arguments. Seriously? Republicans just want to throw your parents out of their homes and steal your kids lunch money. Same stuff, different election cycle. Based on the argument that Palin was not ready to be president (and I’m no Palin fan, mind you), Biden showed why not to vote for the O-B ticket. But, that’s just me. We’ll have to see what the numbers say. All I have to say is Biden is full of stuff.

  • Cincinnatus

    As kerner noted, there’s a fine line between bold aggression and (for lack of a better term) douchiness. Romney was aggressive, and it was enormously successful. Biden was a douche, and I found it off-putting. I’m sure I’m not alone (because I find Biden hugely amusing and even likable otherwise).

    (Also, Kirk, thanks for the clarification.)

  • Cincinnatus

    As kerner noted, there’s a fine line between bold aggression and (for lack of a better term) douchiness. Romney was aggressive, and it was enormously successful. Biden was a douche, and I found it off-putting. I’m sure I’m not alone (because I find Biden hugely amusing and even likable otherwise).

    (Also, Kirk, thanks for the clarification.)

  • Kirk

    @kerner

    Contracting structures within USAID are extremely rigid in that money you obligate for one thing has to be spent on that thing. There are rigorous (some might say “onerous”) financial reporting requirements and everything is subject to our own IG, the Federal IG and the GAO. Of course, implementing partners do profit from their contracts with the government, so pro-abortion groups do make money from contracts with USAID. But the fact remains that USAID does not fund abortion with foreign aid. It’s not a part of the organization’s agenda.

  • Kirk

    @kerner

    Contracting structures within USAID are extremely rigid in that money you obligate for one thing has to be spent on that thing. There are rigorous (some might say “onerous”) financial reporting requirements and everything is subject to our own IG, the Federal IG and the GAO. Of course, implementing partners do profit from their contracts with the government, so pro-abortion groups do make money from contracts with USAID. But the fact remains that USAID does not fund abortion with foreign aid. It’s not a part of the organization’s agenda.

  • fws

    if anything, this just shows that the standard republican mime that “this is the most important election ever!!!!!!” is just ….

    foreign policy what would romney do differently besides more bluster? nada.

    difference on obamacare? nada.

    difference on spending and deficits? not much?

    abortion? Ryan: we are in favor of murdering babies if they are the result of incest or rape. Geeeee. thanks for deciding to really emphasize, repeatedly, that point.

    romney:
    the numbers all add up but of course there are no specifics that allow us to see that. trust us.

    obama: we are about where things were when obama started his presidency economically. things will get better. trust us.

    pundits? they are focussing on gaffes and stylistic differences. why? not alot of substantive differences between the two sides!

    obama will be a technocratic moderate along traditional liberal lbj kennedy likes. romney will be a technocratic moderate along the lines of bush I and nixon. goldwater? not so much….

  • fws

    if anything, this just shows that the standard republican mime that “this is the most important election ever!!!!!!” is just ….

    foreign policy what would romney do differently besides more bluster? nada.

    difference on obamacare? nada.

    difference on spending and deficits? not much?

    abortion? Ryan: we are in favor of murdering babies if they are the result of incest or rape. Geeeee. thanks for deciding to really emphasize, repeatedly, that point.

    romney:
    the numbers all add up but of course there are no specifics that allow us to see that. trust us.

    obama: we are about where things were when obama started his presidency economically. things will get better. trust us.

    pundits? they are focussing on gaffes and stylistic differences. why? not alot of substantive differences between the two sides!

    obama will be a technocratic moderate along traditional liberal lbj kennedy likes. romney will be a technocratic moderate along the lines of bush I and nixon. goldwater? not so much….

  • Cincinnatus

    fw@24:

    Hear, hear! Quite right on all accounts.

    That said, I’m actually glad to see that Ryan (and other Republicans?) are moving away from the rigid abortion rhetoric. No, I do not endorse abortion. But Republican elites have known for ages that the President can do nothing to stop abortions (heck, even Congress doesn’t have much authority in that respect), and that it is thus a meaningless distraction to campaign on a pro-life platform. They only do so as a cynical populist ploy to marshal the votes of social conservatives. And it works.

    But it seems that Republican elites are finally realizing that they’re going to get the votes of social conservatives either way, because Republicans will always be preferable to Democrats on social issues, even if only marginally. Thus, Republicans can get the votes of social conservatives while also avoiding the appearance of moral intransigence–i.e., without alienating voters who don’t consider social issues terribly important.

    I’m not necessarily opposed to moral intransigence, but this new tactic seems prudent, and it clears the air of some meaningless rhetoric.

  • Cincinnatus

    fw@24:

    Hear, hear! Quite right on all accounts.

    That said, I’m actually glad to see that Ryan (and other Republicans?) are moving away from the rigid abortion rhetoric. No, I do not endorse abortion. But Republican elites have known for ages that the President can do nothing to stop abortions (heck, even Congress doesn’t have much authority in that respect), and that it is thus a meaningless distraction to campaign on a pro-life platform. They only do so as a cynical populist ploy to marshal the votes of social conservatives. And it works.

    But it seems that Republican elites are finally realizing that they’re going to get the votes of social conservatives either way, because Republicans will always be preferable to Democrats on social issues, even if only marginally. Thus, Republicans can get the votes of social conservatives while also avoiding the appearance of moral intransigence–i.e., without alienating voters who don’t consider social issues terribly important.

    I’m not necessarily opposed to moral intransigence, but this new tactic seems prudent, and it clears the air of some meaningless rhetoric.

  • Jon H.

    It was jarring to hear Ryan embrace pro-choice. Abortion is always and everywhere murder, he says,unless …. the woman conceives under unpleasant circumstances, then it’s OK. Abortion is murder, he says, but let’s put that up for a vote in the states; some will allow it, some won’t. If it’s the instrinic evil he says it is, he should have come out foursquare behind the Personhood Amendment.

  • Jon H.

    It was jarring to hear Ryan embrace pro-choice. Abortion is always and everywhere murder, he says,unless …. the woman conceives under unpleasant circumstances, then it’s OK. Abortion is murder, he says, but let’s put that up for a vote in the states; some will allow it, some won’t. If it’s the instrinic evil he says it is, he should have come out foursquare behind the Personhood Amendment.

  • fws

    cinn @ 25

    Much as my prejudices wont allow me to vote for Romney, and much as I am appalled at a president killing americans overseas without trial etc etc, …. american politicians , on both sides of the aisle, look positively saintly compared to their Brazilian counterparts!

    Brazilian politicians don´t need to manipulate the population like americans do the spin thang. They are all so corrupt that it is a matter of who is less corrupt. I am really very serious.

  • fws

    cinn @ 25

    Much as my prejudices wont allow me to vote for Romney, and much as I am appalled at a president killing americans overseas without trial etc etc, …. american politicians , on both sides of the aisle, look positively saintly compared to their Brazilian counterparts!

    Brazilian politicians don´t need to manipulate the population like americans do the spin thang. They are all so corrupt that it is a matter of who is less corrupt. I am really very serious.

  • DonS

    Both won, in a sense. Ryan won on likeability and also demonstrated the more than requisite knowledge to be a “heartbeat from the presidency”, as they say. That was his goal — to reach the middle and do no harm. Biden had the daunting task of trying to change the campaign momentum — he was sent out to be the attack dog and to re-motivate the activist base of the Democratic party. They were looking for red meat, and they got it.

    Of course, if your prime task is to motivate the base, and it’s mid-October, your campaign is probably floundering. And it is. The Libya issue, for example, is not going away, as its prime focus in the debate made clear.

    The laughing and rude behavior Biden displayed in the debate may be the long-term takeaway from this debate, which won’t be good for the Obama campaign. The ads are already out.

  • DonS

    Both won, in a sense. Ryan won on likeability and also demonstrated the more than requisite knowledge to be a “heartbeat from the presidency”, as they say. That was his goal — to reach the middle and do no harm. Biden had the daunting task of trying to change the campaign momentum — he was sent out to be the attack dog and to re-motivate the activist base of the Democratic party. They were looking for red meat, and they got it.

    Of course, if your prime task is to motivate the base, and it’s mid-October, your campaign is probably floundering. And it is. The Libya issue, for example, is not going away, as its prime focus in the debate made clear.

    The laughing and rude behavior Biden displayed in the debate may be the long-term takeaway from this debate, which won’t be good for the Obama campaign. The ads are already out.

  • Susan

    I was frustrated by Biden’s continual interruptions of Ryan (82 by one count!). I wanted to hear Ryan’s answers to the questions and thought he might have won the debate if he had been allowed to answer. All in all, I ended up agreeing with Clint Eastwood’s assessment: Joe Biden is kind of a grin with a body attached to it.

  • Susan

    I was frustrated by Biden’s continual interruptions of Ryan (82 by one count!). I wanted to hear Ryan’s answers to the questions and thought he might have won the debate if he had been allowed to answer. All in all, I ended up agreeing with Clint Eastwood’s assessment: Joe Biden is kind of a grin with a body attached to it.

  • fws

    Jon H

    It´s what Cinn says. both sides are really just pandering. presidents and vicepresidents and even congress dont have any real power to change the abortion situation.

    that change has to happen the same way it happened in the first few centuries after christ. a majority wont succeed in imposing their will on the minority with force or political means. It just wont happen that way. I see Obama killing american citizens with drone strikes, guantanamo and abortion all reflecting the erosion of of respect for human life. There is a far larger evil going on here.

    Come quickly Lord!

  • fws

    Jon H

    It´s what Cinn says. both sides are really just pandering. presidents and vicepresidents and even congress dont have any real power to change the abortion situation.

    that change has to happen the same way it happened in the first few centuries after christ. a majority wont succeed in imposing their will on the minority with force or political means. It just wont happen that way. I see Obama killing american citizens with drone strikes, guantanamo and abortion all reflecting the erosion of of respect for human life. There is a far larger evil going on here.

    Come quickly Lord!

  • kerner

    So, as we in Wisconsin used to say about Chicago, in Brasil an honest politician is the one who stays bought?

  • kerner

    So, as we in Wisconsin used to say about Chicago, in Brasil an honest politician is the one who stays bought?

  • fws

    cinn

    let me put it this way:

    if I run to be a state legislator, those who work in my campaign know that they will have jobs for the next 4 years, doing pretty much nothing, that gives them the social equivalent of a $100k salary if I win my election.

    The important fact is not that. It is this:
    No one takes exception to that fact or finds it to be unpatriotic or immoral. THAT is what amazes me.

  • fws

    cinn

    let me put it this way:

    if I run to be a state legislator, those who work in my campaign know that they will have jobs for the next 4 years, doing pretty much nothing, that gives them the social equivalent of a $100k salary if I win my election.

    The important fact is not that. It is this:
    No one takes exception to that fact or finds it to be unpatriotic or immoral. THAT is what amazes me.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Can we just cast a vote for the moderator?

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Can we just cast a vote for the moderator?

  • fjsteve

    Ryan wins 48%-44% among registered voters in a small CNN poll.

    http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/pollingcenter/polls/3262

  • fjsteve

    Ryan wins 48%-44% among registered voters in a small CNN poll.

    http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/pollingcenter/polls/3262

  • Grace

    Biden – interrupting, smirking, calling attention to his childish antics, is an embarrassment to the United States. He has no control over himself.

    Ryan is a very nice man, but I doubt he could ever take control over a situation, he isn’t verbally forceful when someone continues to cross the line, and acts like a juvenile. If he at least once, had spoken clearly with determination when Biden did his ‘interruptions, it would have shown strength, but instead he waited his turn again, and again.

    This election is a mess!

  • Grace

    Biden – interrupting, smirking, calling attention to his childish antics, is an embarrassment to the United States. He has no control over himself.

    Ryan is a very nice man, but I doubt he could ever take control over a situation, he isn’t verbally forceful when someone continues to cross the line, and acts like a juvenile. If he at least once, had spoken clearly with determination when Biden did his ‘interruptions, it would have shown strength, but instead he waited his turn again, and again.

    This election is a mess!

  • fjsteve

    Grace,

    The incumbent gets some privileges in the public forum. Contenders have to be respectful of the office so they have to be respectful of them man. If Ryan had been anywhere close to Biden’s level of interruptions, he would have been dinged for it in the court of public opinion. If anything Ryan got some bump from letting Biden look like the buffoon. The contrast was clear.

  • fjsteve

    Grace,

    The incumbent gets some privileges in the public forum. Contenders have to be respectful of the office so they have to be respectful of them man. If Ryan had been anywhere close to Biden’s level of interruptions, he would have been dinged for it in the court of public opinion. If anything Ryan got some bump from letting Biden look like the buffoon. The contrast was clear.

  • Grace

    fjsteve -

    Being respectful is right, but allowing someone to interrupt time after time, doesn’t show strength.

    A debate is just that, a debate – both sides are on equal footing, it isn’t a matter of bowing to the office of the other.

  • Grace

    fjsteve -

    Being respectful is right, but allowing someone to interrupt time after time, doesn’t show strength.

    A debate is just that, a debate – both sides are on equal footing, it isn’t a matter of bowing to the office of the other.

  • WebMonk

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/elections/

    A collection of polls. Discretion needed: not all polls are created equally, and a lot of those polls are not directly comparable. Stick with the same poll across time for best comparison.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/vice-presidential-debate-polls-results_n_1960147.html
    Just a sample story that mentions two polls. (CNN and CBS polls, so not Gallop quality)

    Here are the main summaries:

    A CNN survey of registered voters who watched the debate and had previously agreed to be interviewed found Paul Ryan the winner, 48 percent to 44 percent, but that was well within the survey’s five percentage point margin of error. Respondents also said they thought Ryan communicated more clearly than Vice President Joe Biden, by a 50 percent to 41 percent margin, and that Ryan was more likable, 53 percent to 43 percent. Those margins likely reflect the underlying partisan composition of the debate viewers that CNN interviewed. The cable network reported that slightly more Republicans viewed the debate (33 percent) than Democrats (31 percent), while 34 percent identified as independents.

    and

    A CBS News poll of uncommitted voters using an online panel found that both candidates made solid impressions, but that more of those voters felt that the debate was a win for Biden. The survey found that 50 percent thought Biden won, 31 percent that Ryan won, and 19 percent that the debate was a tie.

    Most definitely NOT Gallop quality polls, especially the CBS one. So, initially, the final result seems to be an undecided result – no clear, overall winner. Possible tactical victories for both parties in specific areas, though.

  • WebMonk

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/elections/

    A collection of polls. Discretion needed: not all polls are created equally, and a lot of those polls are not directly comparable. Stick with the same poll across time for best comparison.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/vice-presidential-debate-polls-results_n_1960147.html
    Just a sample story that mentions two polls. (CNN and CBS polls, so not Gallop quality)

    Here are the main summaries:

    A CNN survey of registered voters who watched the debate and had previously agreed to be interviewed found Paul Ryan the winner, 48 percent to 44 percent, but that was well within the survey’s five percentage point margin of error. Respondents also said they thought Ryan communicated more clearly than Vice President Joe Biden, by a 50 percent to 41 percent margin, and that Ryan was more likable, 53 percent to 43 percent. Those margins likely reflect the underlying partisan composition of the debate viewers that CNN interviewed. The cable network reported that slightly more Republicans viewed the debate (33 percent) than Democrats (31 percent), while 34 percent identified as independents.

    and

    A CBS News poll of uncommitted voters using an online panel found that both candidates made solid impressions, but that more of those voters felt that the debate was a win for Biden. The survey found that 50 percent thought Biden won, 31 percent that Ryan won, and 19 percent that the debate was a tie.

    Most definitely NOT Gallop quality polls, especially the CBS one. So, initially, the final result seems to be an undecided result – no clear, overall winner. Possible tactical victories for both parties in specific areas, though.

  • Dan

    No wins in the VP debate. Nate Silver at the NYT said Biden got the “hold,” a baseball term for a reliever who holds the lead before the closer comes in.

    The problem with that analysis is that Biden didn’t act like the team trying to hold a lead. He acted like he was behind and needed to make up ground. Ryan acted like the reliever with the hold. All you have to do is compare Biden’s performance to ’08, when they did have the lead and Biden was much more restrained. I have no idea what the campaigns’ internal polls are saying. I don’t know that Obama-Biden are behind. It just looked from last night’s debate a lot more like Ryan was holding a lead.

    So, no one lost, but I think the Obama campaign did not get what they wanted. They wanted to continue the “they lied” narrative, but Ryan didn’t give them enough to push that. Meanwhile, Biden’s comments on Benghazi continue the cover-up narrative.

  • Dan

    No wins in the VP debate. Nate Silver at the NYT said Biden got the “hold,” a baseball term for a reliever who holds the lead before the closer comes in.

    The problem with that analysis is that Biden didn’t act like the team trying to hold a lead. He acted like he was behind and needed to make up ground. Ryan acted like the reliever with the hold. All you have to do is compare Biden’s performance to ’08, when they did have the lead and Biden was much more restrained. I have no idea what the campaigns’ internal polls are saying. I don’t know that Obama-Biden are behind. It just looked from last night’s debate a lot more like Ryan was holding a lead.

    So, no one lost, but I think the Obama campaign did not get what they wanted. They wanted to continue the “they lied” narrative, but Ryan didn’t give them enough to push that. Meanwhile, Biden’s comments on Benghazi continue the cover-up narrative.

  • Abby

    No one “won.” But the fact-checkers verified that Ryan’s analysis of Medicare and the tax rate were true.

  • Abby

    No one “won.” But the fact-checkers verified that Ryan’s analysis of Medicare and the tax rate were true.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    maybe I’m giving the Republicans too much credit, but you have to remember that the strategy is larger than the debate itself. Biden’s buffoonery is already the subject of an RNC ad. Ryan, by giving the Dems no bad visual image to latch onto, deprived them of a similar couinterstrike.

  • kerner

    Grace:

    maybe I’m giving the Republicans too much credit, but you have to remember that the strategy is larger than the debate itself. Biden’s buffoonery is already the subject of an RNC ad. Ryan, by giving the Dems no bad visual image to latch onto, deprived them of a similar couinterstrike.

  • fjsteve

    Great point, kerner!

  • fjsteve

    Great point, kerner!

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 41

    Remembering isn’t the issue. There was NO “strategy” on the part of Biden, he played the goofy buffoon, – won the award hands down, and will NEVER, live it down.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 41

    Remembering isn’t the issue. There was NO “strategy” on the part of Biden, he played the goofy buffoon, – won the award hands down, and will NEVER, live it down.

  • Dan

    Grace @43 -
    I think Biden had a strategy. He wanted to make it look like Ryan was so disconnected from truth that he could not even take him seriously. Biden overplayed it at the beginning of the debate and Ryan didn’t give Biden enough to hit that strategy home.

  • Dan

    Grace @43 -
    I think Biden had a strategy. He wanted to make it look like Ryan was so disconnected from truth that he could not even take him seriously. Biden overplayed it at the beginning of the debate and Ryan didn’t give Biden enough to hit that strategy home.

  • Grace

    This might answer a few questions regarding the GAFFES!

    From the The Weekly Standard

    Biden Has Not Sat for On-Camera Nationally Televised Interview in 5 Months
    Oct 9, 2012 • By DANIEL HALPER

    “Vice President Joe Biden has not sat down for a nationally televised interview in 5 months. The last big TV interview Biden did was on NBC’s Meet the Press, when he jumped the gun and came out in favor of gay marriage before President Obama was able to publicly shift his position. Days later, Obama did his own nationally televised interview and expressed his own support for that initiative.

    ANOTHER EXCERPT:
    “A Republican source explains why Biden is being kept away from the press.

    “Joe Biden gets used by the Obama Campaign like Bernie from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s,’” says the Republican source. “They drag him out to a battleground state, prop him up on a podium in front of a teleprompter, pose him for photos with locals, and then quickly roll him back to Air Force 2 before reporters have a chance to ask him questions. They want Biden to be seen, but not heard in any interviews because they’re afraid he might embarrass the president with another one of his hilarious gaffes.”

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/biden-has-not-sat-camera-nationally-televised-interview-5-months_654033.html

  • Grace

    This might answer a few questions regarding the GAFFES!

    From the The Weekly Standard

    Biden Has Not Sat for On-Camera Nationally Televised Interview in 5 Months
    Oct 9, 2012 • By DANIEL HALPER

    “Vice President Joe Biden has not sat down for a nationally televised interview in 5 months. The last big TV interview Biden did was on NBC’s Meet the Press, when he jumped the gun and came out in favor of gay marriage before President Obama was able to publicly shift his position. Days later, Obama did his own nationally televised interview and expressed his own support for that initiative.

    ANOTHER EXCERPT:
    “A Republican source explains why Biden is being kept away from the press.

    “Joe Biden gets used by the Obama Campaign like Bernie from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s,’” says the Republican source. “They drag him out to a battleground state, prop him up on a podium in front of a teleprompter, pose him for photos with locals, and then quickly roll him back to Air Force 2 before reporters have a chance to ask him questions. They want Biden to be seen, but not heard in any interviews because they’re afraid he might embarrass the president with another one of his hilarious gaffes.”

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/biden-has-not-sat-camera-nationally-televised-interview-5-months_654033.html

  • Grace

    Dan -

    Biden has a “strategy” from what planet?

  • Grace

    Dan -

    Biden has a “strategy” from what planet?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I think the Dems won this one. They had their spirits lifted by the clown on their side.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I think the Dems won this one. They had their spirits lifted by the clown on their side.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace,

    Don’t be stupid. Every debater has a strategy. Some reports suggest that Biden had been essentially sequestered for the past week with aids and advisers practicing his debate strategy.

    Apparently, his strategy didn’t work terribly well. But he had one, make no mistake.

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace,

    Don’t be stupid. Every debater has a strategy. Some reports suggest that Biden had been essentially sequestered for the past week with aids and advisers practicing his debate strategy.

    Apparently, his strategy didn’t work terribly well. But he had one, make no mistake.

  • Dan

    Grace -
    S. Cutter telegraphed before the debate talking about watching for “Ryan’s lies.” It was the same strategy she used during the RNC convention. It was the strategy they fell upon eventually after the first pres. debate.

  • Dan

    Grace -
    S. Cutter telegraphed before the debate talking about watching for “Ryan’s lies.” It was the same strategy she used during the RNC convention. It was the strategy they fell upon eventually after the first pres. debate.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @48 “Don’t be stupid. Every debater has a strategy.”

    The “debater” in question wants attention, either negative or positive, either one will do. That’s not a “strategy” that’s a tick! LOL

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @48 “Don’t be stupid. Every debater has a strategy.”

    The “debater” in question wants attention, either negative or positive, either one will do. That’s not a “strategy” that’s a tick! LOL

  • Grace

    Dan,

    Cutter might well have had a “strategy” bowever Biden didn’t follow directions.. what a surprise.

  • Grace

    Dan,

    Cutter might well have had a “strategy” bowever Biden didn’t follow directions.. what a surprise.

  • Grace

    My post at 50 should have read “tic” instead of “tick”

    Below the definition

    1.A habitual spasmodic contraction of the muscles, most often in the face.
    2.A characteristic or recurrent behavioral trait; idiosyncrasy: “generalization is his tic as a writer”.

  • Grace

    My post at 50 should have read “tic” instead of “tick”

    Below the definition

    1.A habitual spasmodic contraction of the muscles, most often in the face.
    2.A characteristic or recurrent behavioral trait; idiosyncrasy: “generalization is his tic as a writer”.

  • Carl Vehse

    A photo of Paul Ryan and his debate opponent.

  • Carl Vehse

    A photo of Paul Ryan and his debate opponent.

  • Grace

    YA GOTTA hand it to him, he did have a “sTraTeGY”

    Biden Claims He Voted Against Afghanistan, Iraq Wars</b.

    BY: Washington Free Beacon Staff

    October 11, 2012 9:50 pm
    “Vice President Joe Biden accused Rep. Paul Ryan of putting two wars on the “credit card,” and then suggested he voted against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.”

    Another excerpt:
    “Then Sen. Biden voted for the Afghanistan resolution on Sept. 14, 2001 which authorized “the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.”

    And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according to the Washington Post.”

    http://freebeacon.com/biden-claims-he-voted-against-afghanistan-iraq-wars/

  • Grace

    YA GOTTA hand it to him, he did have a “sTraTeGY”

    Biden Claims He Voted Against Afghanistan, Iraq Wars</b.

    BY: Washington Free Beacon Staff

    October 11, 2012 9:50 pm
    “Vice President Joe Biden accused Rep. Paul Ryan of putting two wars on the “credit card,” and then suggested he voted against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.”

    Another excerpt:
    “Then Sen. Biden voted for the Afghanistan resolution on Sept. 14, 2001 which authorized “the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.”

    And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according to the Washington Post.”

    http://freebeacon.com/biden-claims-he-voted-against-afghanistan-iraq-wars/

  • Lou G.

    Thanks for those facts, Grace!! I thought I remembered him being for the wars before he was against them. My bs radar went off when he made those claims.

  • Lou G.

    Thanks for those facts, Grace!! I thought I remembered him being for the wars before he was against them. My bs radar went off when he made those claims.

  • Lou G.

    Oh, re:#50, I thought you meant tick as in: “a parasitic arachnid that attaches itself to the skin of a terrestrial vertebrate from which it sucks…” lol.

  • Lou G.

    Oh, re:#50, I thought you meant tick as in: “a parasitic arachnid that attaches itself to the skin of a terrestrial vertebrate from which it sucks…” lol.

  • Lou G.

    fyi. Ryan was a bit disappointing in some regards, but he didn’t blow it, he held his own and he looked like the real grown-up. So, not all bad for Team R&R.

  • Lou G.

    fyi. Ryan was a bit disappointing in some regards, but he didn’t blow it, he held his own and he looked like the real grown-up. So, not all bad for Team R&R.

  • Grace

    Lou,

    LOL, I think one can use “tick” and “tic” now that I’ve read your comment. That was a good one!

  • Grace

    Lou,

    LOL, I think one can use “tick” and “tic” now that I’ve read your comment. That was a good one!

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    This debate convinces me even more to pray for the health of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. Ryan is not yet ready for the Presidency and Biden never will be given his erratic behavior at his age.

    If Obama is re-elected we get a new recession on his watch which sends Democrats to the woodshed. If Romney wins we get a chance to see if Republicans are serious about loosening the leash the government has put on the American people.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    This debate convinces me even more to pray for the health of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. Ryan is not yet ready for the Presidency and Biden never will be given his erratic behavior at his age.

    If Obama is re-elected we get a new recession on his watch which sends Democrats to the woodshed. If Romney wins we get a chance to see if Republicans are serious about loosening the leash the government has put on the American people.

  • kerner

    All this political talk makes me want to lighten the mood for the weekend.

  • kerner

    All this political talk makes me want to lighten the mood for the weekend.

  • WisdomLover

    So.

    Biden energized his base.

    It’s wonderful for Team Obama that three weeks before the election (and while early voting is already taking place) that they are getting around to energizing their base. He did so at the price of being a complete jerk. Something that will play really well with independents, especially independent women.

    But use your common sense, my friend, (ha ha :-D) he did what he had to do. Trust me.

    Malarky!

    If that’s what he had to do, this election was over before last night’s debate.

  • WisdomLover

    So.

    Biden energized his base.

    It’s wonderful for Team Obama that three weeks before the election (and while early voting is already taking place) that they are getting around to energizing their base. He did so at the price of being a complete jerk. Something that will play really well with independents, especially independent women.

    But use your common sense, my friend, (ha ha :-D) he did what he had to do. Trust me.

    Malarky!

    If that’s what he had to do, this election was over before last night’s debate.

  • Grace

    Kerner, where did you find that piece of trash? If that “lightens” your mood for the weekend ………….!

  • Grace

    Kerner, where did you find that piece of trash? If that “lightens” your mood for the weekend ………….!

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @61 If that’s what he had to do, this election was over before last night’s debate.”

    Maybe that was the plan – then Obama can blame Biden for losing the election. Who would have ever guessed. :lol:

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @61 If that’s what he had to do, this election was over before last night’s debate.”

    Maybe that was the plan – then Obama can blame Biden for losing the election. Who would have ever guessed. :lol:

  • Grace

    He most likely knew he was going to lose the past few weeks, what else could he do, and still feel it wasn’t his fault?

  • Grace

    He most likely knew he was going to lose the past few weeks, what else could he do, and still feel it wasn’t his fault?

  • brianh

    Tie. So win goes to Ryan. Biden is Dem base. He won’t win over independents in OH.

  • brianh

    Tie. So win goes to Ryan. Biden is Dem base. He won’t win over independents in OH.

  • P.C.

    24 hours after the Vice Presidential debate analizing a variety of different sources and after reviewing the comments on this blog I conclude that one of the debaters last night was a Christian and the other was a Democrat! So much for being a political liberal and a conservative Christian, eh?

  • P.C.

    24 hours after the Vice Presidential debate analizing a variety of different sources and after reviewing the comments on this blog I conclude that one of the debaters last night was a Christian and the other was a Democrat! So much for being a political liberal and a conservative Christian, eh?

  • Grace

    P.C. @66 “I conclude that one of the debaters last night was a Christian and the other was a Democrat! “

    Romney is a Mormon.

    Mormons believe they will be gods one day. That doesn’t come close to what the Bible says. In fact we can find another who wanted to be equal with God.

    What sort of discussion are you looking for?

  • Grace

    P.C. @66 “I conclude that one of the debaters last night was a Christian and the other was a Democrat! “

    Romney is a Mormon.

    Mormons believe they will be gods one day. That doesn’t come close to what the Bible says. In fact we can find another who wanted to be equal with God.

    What sort of discussion are you looking for?

  • P.C.

    Grace,

    Rep Paul Ryan is a Catholic. He is not a Morman.

  • P.C.

    Grace,

    Rep Paul Ryan is a Catholic. He is not a Morman.

  • Grace

    P.C.

    You’re right Ryan is not a Morman, but Romney is. I’m sorry for the mix-up.

  • Grace

    P.C.

    You’re right Ryan is not a Morman, but Romney is. I’m sorry for the mix-up.

  • fjsteve

    Yes, Biden had a strategy. After Obama’s fail, Biden’s handlers took the leash off and said “Sick ‘em, Joe”. That’s just what he tried to do. And Ryan’s handlers, if they were smart, and I’m guessing they are, predicted the strategy and told Ryan to play it cool.

    I’m guessing Biden’s handlers forgot to tell him not to sound like a seven year old. “Mommy! Pauly got 40 seconds and I only get 15.”

  • fjsteve

    Yes, Biden had a strategy. After Obama’s fail, Biden’s handlers took the leash off and said “Sick ‘em, Joe”. That’s just what he tried to do. And Ryan’s handlers, if they were smart, and I’m guessing they are, predicted the strategy and told Ryan to play it cool.

    I’m guessing Biden’s handlers forgot to tell him not to sound like a seven year old. “Mommy! Pauly got 40 seconds and I only get 15.”

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    I don’t care if Romney believes that when we die we turn into pumpkins.

    I care about him trying to restore American ideals to a government that has been badly damaged by a disdain for American values and a fixation with equality… and not freedom…the real American value that is now on life support.

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    I don’t care if Romney believes that when we die we turn into pumpkins.

    I care about him trying to restore American ideals to a government that has been badly damaged by a disdain for American values and a fixation with equality… and not freedom…the real American value that is now on life support.

  • Tom Hering

    Not only did Romney get a good bounce after the first Presidential debate, he got momentum. Which means he got all the attention. Which wasn’t good for the Democrats in the weeks just before the election. Now, after the Vice Presidential debate, who is the press focused on? Who is being talked about on the internet? Who is being talked about here (rather endlessly)? Yup, Smilin’ Joe Biden. For all practical purposes, Biden grabbed the big Romney story by the neck and choked the life out of it. The bounce is yesterday’s news now – page 2 stuff. And all the President has to do on Tuesday is hold on to the front page. Like it or not, that’s how elections are won.

  • Tom Hering

    Not only did Romney get a good bounce after the first Presidential debate, he got momentum. Which means he got all the attention. Which wasn’t good for the Democrats in the weeks just before the election. Now, after the Vice Presidential debate, who is the press focused on? Who is being talked about on the internet? Who is being talked about here (rather endlessly)? Yup, Smilin’ Joe Biden. For all practical purposes, Biden grabbed the big Romney story by the neck and choked the life out of it. The bounce is yesterday’s news now – page 2 stuff. And all the President has to do on Tuesday is hold on to the front page. Like it or not, that’s how elections are won.

  • fws

    steve martin @ 71

    that is the problem.
    freedom is the american value.
    but it is not the christian one.
    freedom is a means to an end.
    Gods goal is that we use our freedom to sacrificially serve others who need us.

    and we dont do that.
    so God WILL have that be done by sending punishing governments that are unjust but make us do what we dont want to do with our freedom.

    freedom is a very relative abstract thing to be called a value.

  • fws

    steve martin @ 71

    that is the problem.
    freedom is the american value.
    but it is not the christian one.
    freedom is a means to an end.
    Gods goal is that we use our freedom to sacrificially serve others who need us.

    and we dont do that.
    so God WILL have that be done by sending punishing governments that are unjust but make us do what we dont want to do with our freedom.

    freedom is a very relative abstract thing to be called a value.

  • fws

    tom herring @ 72

    what tom says. Biden captured the media attention.
    plus he rallied the base. he said all the stuff that democrats like me wanted Obama to say .

  • fws

    tom herring @ 72

    what tom says. Biden captured the media attention.
    plus he rallied the base. he said all the stuff that democrats like me wanted Obama to say .

  • fws

    steve martin @ 71

    The man believes that he is working towards becoming a god and his wife a goddess just as God is now God. and create his own planets.

    Im sorry steve. This seems just a little too dilusional for me to vote for. and it simply has to reflect itself in his character. And he will be the first president who was formerly a pastor and bishop and is still in the very top eschelons of his church. It would be the equivalent of electing a still active roman catholic archbishop as president and he is still active in his office in the roman church. no. I wouldnt like that.. that will be a first I am not looking forward to.

  • fws

    steve martin @ 71

    The man believes that he is working towards becoming a god and his wife a goddess just as God is now God. and create his own planets.

    Im sorry steve. This seems just a little too dilusional for me to vote for. and it simply has to reflect itself in his character. And he will be the first president who was formerly a pastor and bishop and is still in the very top eschelons of his church. It would be the equivalent of electing a still active roman catholic archbishop as president and he is still active in his office in the roman church. no. I wouldnt like that.. that will be a first I am not looking forward to.

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@72,

    No it’s not. How many times do I have to cite the scads of political science research that soundly demonstrates campaigns do not win elections?

  • Cincinnatus

    Tom@72,

    No it’s not. How many times do I have to cite the scads of political science research that soundly demonstrates campaigns do not win elections?

  • fjsteve

    Tom,

    Nixon held the front page for quite some time too. It’s now always a good thing.

  • fjsteve

    Tom,

    Nixon held the front page for quite some time too. It’s now always a good thing.

  • socapa

    A little off-topic: conservativetimes.org/?p=12369/ We have been warned!

  • socapa

    A little off-topic: conservativetimes.org/?p=12369/ We have been warned!

  • WisdomLover

    “Gods goal is that we use our freedom to sacrificially serve others who need us.”

    “God WILL have that be done by sending punishing governments that are unjust but make us do what we dont want to do with our freedom.”

    Yes. Big, unjust, punishing governments are really, really good at making sure that those in need get served.

  • WisdomLover

    “Gods goal is that we use our freedom to sacrificially serve others who need us.”

    “God WILL have that be done by sending punishing governments that are unjust but make us do what we dont want to do with our freedom.”

    Yes. Big, unjust, punishing governments are really, really good at making sure that those in need get served.

  • fjsteve

    Sorry socapa, I got to the first point in your link and my BS detector was going crazy. By the fifth point I had to pack it in. People have legitimate grips against Romeny. No need to make stuff up.

  • fjsteve

    Sorry socapa, I got to the first point in your link and my BS detector was going crazy. By the fifth point I had to pack it in. People have legitimate grips against Romeny. No need to make stuff up.

  • fws

    wisdom lover @ 79

    you´re right of course.

    God sanctions 3 governments on earth to force us to do what it is we are supposed to do: the household, the church and society.

    It is rare that any one of those three governments is able to make sinful men bear the fruit that is Mercy for others that is God´s Will. Usually all three just are about sacrifice and suffering and inflicting pain.

    Christians see beyond those flaws and see the crown of authority God has placed upon the heads of those governments. This is why we honor a father and mother, whether it is a governmental, family or church father. Not because of who they are, but because God has placed them over us.

    God has promised to bless those who obey and serve these fathers with a long and happy life. and he has threatened to punish those who do not.

  • fws

    wisdom lover @ 79

    you´re right of course.

    God sanctions 3 governments on earth to force us to do what it is we are supposed to do: the household, the church and society.

    It is rare that any one of those three governments is able to make sinful men bear the fruit that is Mercy for others that is God´s Will. Usually all three just are about sacrifice and suffering and inflicting pain.

    Christians see beyond those flaws and see the crown of authority God has placed upon the heads of those governments. This is why we honor a father and mother, whether it is a governmental, family or church father. Not because of who they are, but because God has placed them over us.

    God has promised to bless those who obey and serve these fathers with a long and happy life. and he has threatened to punish those who do not.

  • fws

    Wisom Lover @ 79

    If you are a Lutheran or other christian, I would encourage you to read the Large Catechism on the 4th commandment . I am really just paraphrasing that excellent summary of biblical teachings. This writing describes the God sanctioned basis for all earthly authority. It describes the means God uses to control lawlessness on earth.

    You can find that here:

    http://bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php#para103

  • fws

    Wisom Lover @ 79

    If you are a Lutheran or other christian, I would encourage you to read the Large Catechism on the 4th commandment . I am really just paraphrasing that excellent summary of biblical teachings. This writing describes the God sanctioned basis for all earthly authority. It describes the means God uses to control lawlessness on earth.

    You can find that here:

    http://bookofconcord.org/lc-3-tencommandments.php#para103

  • Grace

    Steve Martin @71 “I don’t care if Romney believes that when we die we turn into pumpkins.”

    You most likely don’t, but I do care that he believes he will be a god one day. It’s false! If a man can believe such a thing, what else can he believe that is wrong?

    You and many others are grasping at the wind, this country is in deep trouble, not realizing the consequences of their decisions.

    You and others can scream “Romney isn’t running as Pastor and Chief of the United States” but in essence that is EXACTLY what it is.

    YOU WROTE: “I care about him trying to restore American ideals to a government that has been badly damaged by a disdain for American values and a fixation with equality… and not freedom…the real American value that is now on life support.”

    A mans foundation, what his core beliefs really are, is exactly where his values lie. A man who is a bishop/pastor of a cult knowing full well what it stands for, what it believes (thou the masse have very little knowledge is no excuse) – This man is a pastor running for the presidency of this country, that’s no small thing although very few see it as such. This man is a pastor FIRST, and all else follows.

    Romney is a pastor, he will always be a pastor.

    Mormon pastor highlights Romney’s faith and service
    August 30, 2012 11:04 PM

    Grant Bennett, who served as an assistant pastor to Romney at the Mormon church in Belmont, Mass., highlighted Romney’s faith and service in their church discussing how Romney would regularly meet with churchgoers who were in need.

    WATCH THE VIDEO http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7420078n

    One of his comments is: “I was Mitts assistant when he was our pastor”

    Another comment: “What did Mitt Romney do as our pastor?”

    Another comment: “Years later, I became the pastor”

  • Grace

    Steve Martin @71 “I don’t care if Romney believes that when we die we turn into pumpkins.”

    You most likely don’t, but I do care that he believes he will be a god one day. It’s false! If a man can believe such a thing, what else can he believe that is wrong?

    You and many others are grasping at the wind, this country is in deep trouble, not realizing the consequences of their decisions.

    You and others can scream “Romney isn’t running as Pastor and Chief of the United States” but in essence that is EXACTLY what it is.

    YOU WROTE: “I care about him trying to restore American ideals to a government that has been badly damaged by a disdain for American values and a fixation with equality… and not freedom…the real American value that is now on life support.”

    A mans foundation, what his core beliefs really are, is exactly where his values lie. A man who is a bishop/pastor of a cult knowing full well what it stands for, what it believes (thou the masse have very little knowledge is no excuse) – This man is a pastor running for the presidency of this country, that’s no small thing although very few see it as such. This man is a pastor FIRST, and all else follows.

    Romney is a pastor, he will always be a pastor.

    Mormon pastor highlights Romney’s faith and service
    August 30, 2012 11:04 PM

    Grant Bennett, who served as an assistant pastor to Romney at the Mormon church in Belmont, Mass., highlighted Romney’s faith and service in their church discussing how Romney would regularly meet with churchgoers who were in need.

    WATCH THE VIDEO http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7420078n

    One of his comments is: “I was Mitts assistant when he was our pastor”

    Another comment: “What did Mitt Romney do as our pastor?”

    Another comment: “Years later, I became the pastor”

  • WisdomLover

    “The man believes that he is working towards becoming a god and his wife a goddess just as God is now God. and create his own planets.”

    “This seems just a little too dilusional for me to vote for. ”

    In other words, Romney has the same delusion all men have had since the Fall. Your eyes shall be open and you shall be as gods.

    But, honestly, I would guess he actually doesn’t believe that the doctrine of eternal progression is literally true. I would guess that he has a typical American relativist outlook. He probably has vaguely monotheistic beliefs, thinks Jesus was something special, and otherwise views all religions as equally true. The important thing, according to Romney, is probably to be sincere and do the right thing.

    He probably thinks that all religions make outrageous claims that stretch credulity (and most, including Christianity, do). He gets past his incredulity and the law of contradiction by assuming that, where religious doctrines conflict or seem absurd, each is expressing in metaphor some deep truth that no one sees very well. To use the tired metaphor of the elephant groped by the blindfolded men, if you could just see the elephant that you’re groping, you’d see that there is no conflict or other difficulty in what everyone is saying.

    What’s more, noting the incredible nature of some religious claims is no reason not to keep teaching them. To return to the poor elephant, it’s better to have someone declaring that it’s something like a snake than to have complete silence about the trunk.

    Now, don’t mistake me, I think that’s all nonsense.

    Frankly, I find thoroughgoing Mormonism more plausible, with its golden plates, magic glasses, Arian theology and eternal progression, than a vaguely monotheistic religious relativism. (That is not to say that I find it plausible.)

    Nevertheless, I think vaguely monotheistic religious relativism is the view of a whole lot, probably a vast majority, of my countrymen. I’d be willing to bet that it is as much Obama’s view and Biden’s view, as it is Romney’s. In my lifetime, I don’t think we’ve had many Presidents or VP’s who actually believe the doctrines of the church they attend. They’ve all been vaguely monotheistic religious relativists. Maybe W was a true believer. Maybe Ryan is. We may have had a few more Presidential candidates who truly believed the teachings of their religion, but most haven’t gotten far.

    BTW – Yes, I know Romney was an Elder in his Church…but I’ve known nominally ‘Christian’ Pastors who’ve been nothing more than vaguely monotheistic religious relativists. Most of the American Clergy probably fall into that category.

    What this all gets to saying is that if you are going to vote against Romney because he lives under the delusion of the Fall or because you think his religious views are nonsense, be prepared to sit out a whole lot of elections. Because candidates with plausible religious views seldom run these days.

  • WisdomLover

    “The man believes that he is working towards becoming a god and his wife a goddess just as God is now God. and create his own planets.”

    “This seems just a little too dilusional for me to vote for. ”

    In other words, Romney has the same delusion all men have had since the Fall. Your eyes shall be open and you shall be as gods.

    But, honestly, I would guess he actually doesn’t believe that the doctrine of eternal progression is literally true. I would guess that he has a typical American relativist outlook. He probably has vaguely monotheistic beliefs, thinks Jesus was something special, and otherwise views all religions as equally true. The important thing, according to Romney, is probably to be sincere and do the right thing.

    He probably thinks that all religions make outrageous claims that stretch credulity (and most, including Christianity, do). He gets past his incredulity and the law of contradiction by assuming that, where religious doctrines conflict or seem absurd, each is expressing in metaphor some deep truth that no one sees very well. To use the tired metaphor of the elephant groped by the blindfolded men, if you could just see the elephant that you’re groping, you’d see that there is no conflict or other difficulty in what everyone is saying.

    What’s more, noting the incredible nature of some religious claims is no reason not to keep teaching them. To return to the poor elephant, it’s better to have someone declaring that it’s something like a snake than to have complete silence about the trunk.

    Now, don’t mistake me, I think that’s all nonsense.

    Frankly, I find thoroughgoing Mormonism more plausible, with its golden plates, magic glasses, Arian theology and eternal progression, than a vaguely monotheistic religious relativism. (That is not to say that I find it plausible.)

    Nevertheless, I think vaguely monotheistic religious relativism is the view of a whole lot, probably a vast majority, of my countrymen. I’d be willing to bet that it is as much Obama’s view and Biden’s view, as it is Romney’s. In my lifetime, I don’t think we’ve had many Presidents or VP’s who actually believe the doctrines of the church they attend. They’ve all been vaguely monotheistic religious relativists. Maybe W was a true believer. Maybe Ryan is. We may have had a few more Presidential candidates who truly believed the teachings of their religion, but most haven’t gotten far.

    BTW – Yes, I know Romney was an Elder in his Church…but I’ve known nominally ‘Christian’ Pastors who’ve been nothing more than vaguely monotheistic religious relativists. Most of the American Clergy probably fall into that category.

    What this all gets to saying is that if you are going to vote against Romney because he lives under the delusion of the Fall or because you think his religious views are nonsense, be prepared to sit out a whole lot of elections. Because candidates with plausible religious views seldom run these days.

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @84

    You can design any magical thinking to sooth your thoughts regarding the Mormon Church, but you’re avoiding the truth of what they believe.

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @84

    You can design any magical thinking to sooth your thoughts regarding the Mormon Church, but you’re avoiding the truth of what they believe.

  • fjsteve

    WL,

    “What this all gets to saying is that if you are going to vote against Romney because he lives under the delusion of the Fall or because you think his religious views are nonsense, be prepared to sit out a whole lot of elections. Because candidates with plausible religious views seldom run these days.”

    Like waiting for a politician who doesn’t lie. Ok, how about a politician who tells the truth? Well, maybe a politician who tells the truth 50% of the time would be more feasible. I can go with 25% of the time if he belongs to the same party I do. But I absolutely draw the line at a politician who tells the truth 10% of the time as long as he belongs to the same party and denomination I do.

    I have standards, you know!

  • fjsteve

    WL,

    “What this all gets to saying is that if you are going to vote against Romney because he lives under the delusion of the Fall or because you think his religious views are nonsense, be prepared to sit out a whole lot of elections. Because candidates with plausible religious views seldom run these days.”

    Like waiting for a politician who doesn’t lie. Ok, how about a politician who tells the truth? Well, maybe a politician who tells the truth 50% of the time would be more feasible. I can go with 25% of the time if he belongs to the same party I do. But I absolutely draw the line at a politician who tells the truth 10% of the time as long as he belongs to the same party and denomination I do.

    I have standards, you know!

  • WisdomLover

    Grace-

    I believe the phrase “magical thinking” is a phrase typically used by atheists to refer to belief in the supernatural, especially miracles.

    Now, I do believe in the supernatural and miracles. For example, I believe in the Triune God, the Fall of Man, the Death and Resurrection of Christ in Redemption of Fallen Man. And a whole lot of other stuff that would strain credulity if it weren’t for the fact that all are provably true.

    So I suppose that I do engage in a lot of magical thinking.

    And my magical thinking extends out into my views about the physical world. For example, there is no particular reason that apple trees should give fruit, or water should flow downhill apart from magical rules put in place by the Great Magician according to His own good pleasure. So, along with G.K. Chesterton, I believe that apple trees give fruit because they are magic trees and water flows downhill because it is bewitched.

    More magical thinking.

    And I attribute America’s love of religious relativism to the fallenness of my countrymen and the active work of Satan.

    So indeed, I embrace magical thinking.

    I’ll take it farther, I think that unmagical thinking is profoundly irrational.

    But for some reason, I don’t think you meant to be complimenting me on my rationality.

    I think, in fact, you were expressing the atheistic belief that “magical thinking” = “irrational thinking”, and that my suggestion that Romney is a vaguely monotheistic religious relativist is somehow irrational.

    Well, I suppose you might disagree with me about the prevalence of vaguely monotheistic religious relativism.

    There’s no way for either one of us to prove a priori that it is or is not a prevalent view. I suppose a well constructed and administered poll might be good evidence one way or the other. I don’t know whether any such poll has ever been done. But my sense is that religious relativism is a prevalent and even dominant viewpoint. This sense is based on a lifetime of experience in listening to people in a lot of different places in the U.S. (though others have a much broader experience…perhaps you do). If your experience differs, then God bless you, we’ll simply have to disagree.

    But if you do think, as I do, that the relativist view is a prevalent, even dominant, view even among nominal adherents to various religions and denominations, then why would you think it’s irrational to attribute it to Romney?

    I would think that, once the prevalence of religious relativism is granted, you need some convincing arguments to suggest that a given American, especially a Harvard-educated northeasterner, isn’t a religious relativist.

  • WisdomLover

    Grace-

    I believe the phrase “magical thinking” is a phrase typically used by atheists to refer to belief in the supernatural, especially miracles.

    Now, I do believe in the supernatural and miracles. For example, I believe in the Triune God, the Fall of Man, the Death and Resurrection of Christ in Redemption of Fallen Man. And a whole lot of other stuff that would strain credulity if it weren’t for the fact that all are provably true.

    So I suppose that I do engage in a lot of magical thinking.

    And my magical thinking extends out into my views about the physical world. For example, there is no particular reason that apple trees should give fruit, or water should flow downhill apart from magical rules put in place by the Great Magician according to His own good pleasure. So, along with G.K. Chesterton, I believe that apple trees give fruit because they are magic trees and water flows downhill because it is bewitched.

    More magical thinking.

    And I attribute America’s love of religious relativism to the fallenness of my countrymen and the active work of Satan.

    So indeed, I embrace magical thinking.

    I’ll take it farther, I think that unmagical thinking is profoundly irrational.

    But for some reason, I don’t think you meant to be complimenting me on my rationality.

    I think, in fact, you were expressing the atheistic belief that “magical thinking” = “irrational thinking”, and that my suggestion that Romney is a vaguely monotheistic religious relativist is somehow irrational.

    Well, I suppose you might disagree with me about the prevalence of vaguely monotheistic religious relativism.

    There’s no way for either one of us to prove a priori that it is or is not a prevalent view. I suppose a well constructed and administered poll might be good evidence one way or the other. I don’t know whether any such poll has ever been done. But my sense is that religious relativism is a prevalent and even dominant viewpoint. This sense is based on a lifetime of experience in listening to people in a lot of different places in the U.S. (though others have a much broader experience…perhaps you do). If your experience differs, then God bless you, we’ll simply have to disagree.

    But if you do think, as I do, that the relativist view is a prevalent, even dominant, view even among nominal adherents to various religions and denominations, then why would you think it’s irrational to attribute it to Romney?

    I would think that, once the prevalence of religious relativism is granted, you need some convincing arguments to suggest that a given American, especially a Harvard-educated northeasterner, isn’t a religious relativist.

  • WisdomLover

    fjsteve-

    I have no quarrel with the standards you mention in #86, I think Romney lives up to your standards, or at least, comes a whole lot closer than Obama and Biden.

    That’s part of the reason I’m voting for him (not that it matters, since I live in California).

  • WisdomLover

    fjsteve-

    I have no quarrel with the standards you mention in #86, I think Romney lives up to your standards, or at least, comes a whole lot closer than Obama and Biden.

    That’s part of the reason I’m voting for him (not that it matters, since I live in California).

  • Grace

    Below is a VIDEO which reveals the inner core and beliefs of the Mormon Church. It’s roots are nothing but religious fiction.

    Oxford University took part in this documentary, amoung many other scholars, and scientists.

    This may very well be one of the most educational video’s you will ever see.

    I urge everyone to watch and see for themselves.

    ☀ The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon

  • Grace

    Below is a VIDEO which reveals the inner core and beliefs of the Mormon Church. It’s roots are nothing but religious fiction.

    Oxford University took part in this documentary, amoung many other scholars, and scientists.

    This may very well be one of the most educational video’s you will ever see.

    I urge everyone to watch and see for themselves.

    ☀ The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon

  • WisdomLover

    Grace-

    So what?

    Do you honestly believe that anyone here is tempted by Mormon theology?

    The fact that Mormon theology is false is not relevant to the choice that is before us. We have four candidates in front of us. At most one of them (Ryan) has any chance of having a reasonable theology.

    Two of them also have silly political views.

    Two of them have sane political views…The Mormon is one of them.

    So now what were you suggesting?

    Don’t vote?

  • WisdomLover

    Grace-

    So what?

    Do you honestly believe that anyone here is tempted by Mormon theology?

    The fact that Mormon theology is false is not relevant to the choice that is before us. We have four candidates in front of us. At most one of them (Ryan) has any chance of having a reasonable theology.

    Two of them also have silly political views.

    Two of them have sane political views…The Mormon is one of them.

    So now what were you suggesting?

    Don’t vote?

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @ 90 “Do you honestly believe that anyone here is tempted by Mormon theology?”

    That isn’t the reason I posted the video. I’m not surprised that you or a few others would make such a comment, that is, if you even watched the video.

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @ 90 “Do you honestly believe that anyone here is tempted by Mormon theology?”

    That isn’t the reason I posted the video. I’m not surprised that you or a few others would make such a comment, that is, if you even watched the video.

  • WisdomLover

    Is there some reason I have to watch a video that shows to me, again, what I know about Mormon teachings and history.

    Before I waste my time, tell me how it’s relevant to the question of who should be President.

    I know you are now releasing your inner troll, so you may have forgotten what this thread is about. As a reminder, it’s specifically about who won the VP debate, if it strays into Presidential politics generally, I suppose that’s still loosely on topic.

    Mormon theology…not so much.

  • WisdomLover

    Is there some reason I have to watch a video that shows to me, again, what I know about Mormon teachings and history.

    Before I waste my time, tell me how it’s relevant to the question of who should be President.

    I know you are now releasing your inner troll, so you may have forgotten what this thread is about. As a reminder, it’s specifically about who won the VP debate, if it strays into Presidential politics generally, I suppose that’s still loosely on topic.

    Mormon theology…not so much.

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @92“Is there some reason I have to watch a video that shows to me, again, what I know about Mormon teachings and history.”

    You sound like a Mormon, which would explain why you’ve made some of the comments above, in other posts.

    YOU WROTE: I know you are now releasing your inner troll, so you may have forgotten what this thread is about.”

    Name calling doesn’t equate to “wisdom” but rather the opposite; as in ‘play ground tactics, used by children.

  • Grace

    WisdomLover @92“Is there some reason I have to watch a video that shows to me, again, what I know about Mormon teachings and history.”

    You sound like a Mormon, which would explain why you’ve made some of the comments above, in other posts.

    YOU WROTE: I know you are now releasing your inner troll, so you may have forgotten what this thread is about.”

    Name calling doesn’t equate to “wisdom” but rather the opposite; as in ‘play ground tactics, used by children.

  • Cincinnatus

    Don’t feed the troll, folks.

  • Cincinnatus

    Don’t feed the troll, folks.

  • rlewer

    We are electing a president, not calling a pastor.

  • rlewer

    We are electing a president, not calling a pastor.

  • Grace

    The VIDEO posted @89 is very effective, giving the history of the Mormon Church, and it’s beliefs.

    The truth, when presented and documented, is difficult for Mormons to accept, all the magical thinking is confronted with FACTS!

    Mormons are used to “magical thinking” – the term is used often regarding their cult.

  • Grace

    The VIDEO posted @89 is very effective, giving the history of the Mormon Church, and it’s beliefs.

    The truth, when presented and documented, is difficult for Mormons to accept, all the magical thinking is confronted with FACTS!

    Mormons are used to “magical thinking” – the term is used often regarding their cult.

  • Grace

    rlewer “We are electing a president, not calling a pastor.”

    For you, it’s most likely the truth, but for others ………..

  • Grace

    rlewer “We are electing a president, not calling a pastor.”

    For you, it’s most likely the truth, but for others ………..

  • WisdomLover

    Honestly, I don’t think I have that big a footprint on this blog, but if anyone thinks that anything I’ve said sounds remotely Mormon, they don’t know what Mormonism is (or Lutheranism)

    Of course, I’m a Missouri Synod Lutheran.

    I agree with Cincinnatus on this issue. DNFTT.

  • WisdomLover

    Honestly, I don’t think I have that big a footprint on this blog, but if anyone thinks that anything I’ve said sounds remotely Mormon, they don’t know what Mormonism is (or Lutheranism)

    Of course, I’m a Missouri Synod Lutheran.

    I agree with Cincinnatus on this issue. DNFTT.

  • rlewer

    Grace,

    Truth is not relative. Facts are facts.

    We are electing a president, just as we did when we elected a Catholic Kennedy and when we will elect a Catholic vice president this year.

    We elected a liberation theology president in 2008.

    Mormon theology is non-Christian. That is not really the point.

  • rlewer

    Grace,

    Truth is not relative. Facts are facts.

    We are electing a president, just as we did when we elected a Catholic Kennedy and when we will elect a Catholic vice president this year.

    We elected a liberation theology president in 2008.

    Mormon theology is non-Christian. That is not really the point.

  • Grace

    rlewer @99

    I was not near old enough to vote for or against JFK.

    I did not vote for Obama, I had no part in his being elected president.

    YOU WROTE: “Mormon theology is non-Christian. That is not really the point.”

    It is the “point” for millions of Christians, who hold the view which is:
    If a man believes he will one day be a god, they will not vote. As you know the Bible speaks of another who wanted to be equal with God.

  • Grace

    rlewer @99

    I was not near old enough to vote for or against JFK.

    I did not vote for Obama, I had no part in his being elected president.

    YOU WROTE: “Mormon theology is non-Christian. That is not really the point.”

    It is the “point” for millions of Christians, who hold the view which is:
    If a man believes he will one day be a god, they will not vote. As you know the Bible speaks of another who wanted to be equal with God.

  • Grace

    rlewer @99

    YOU WROTE: “Truth is not relative. Facts are facts.”

    TRUTH is FACT, it is relative in every way!

    God ALMIGHTY and the Bible are both truth and fact!

  • Grace

    rlewer @99

    YOU WROTE: “Truth is not relative. Facts are facts.”

    TRUTH is FACT, it is relative in every way!

    God ALMIGHTY and the Bible are both truth and fact!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Remind me why it is wrong to vote for people of other religions especially when they are good candidates espousing policies and positions you agree with and want.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Remind me why it is wrong to vote for people of other religions especially when they are good candidates espousing policies and positions you agree with and want.

  • JunkerGeorg

    Agree with Krauthammer’s take on the debate. I did appreciate Ryan’s mention of HHS mandate which threatens religious liberties. Yet other than that I must add that I’ve never understood why Ryan has been propped up as some sort of fiscal/Tea party conservative. Well, ok, I do, the media has done this. But like Romney he is much more Rino in reality (i.e., voted for TARP, Debt Increase, etc.) Granted, outside of those voting 3rd party, it’s a matter of picking your poison: A quicker death with Obama or a slower death with Romney.

  • JunkerGeorg

    Agree with Krauthammer’s take on the debate. I did appreciate Ryan’s mention of HHS mandate which threatens religious liberties. Yet other than that I must add that I’ve never understood why Ryan has been propped up as some sort of fiscal/Tea party conservative. Well, ok, I do, the media has done this. But like Romney he is much more Rino in reality (i.e., voted for TARP, Debt Increase, etc.) Granted, outside of those voting 3rd party, it’s a matter of picking your poison: A quicker death with Obama or a slower death with Romney.

  • fws

    sg @ 102

    Generally you are right SG. Why? God rules and judges men , on earth, by what it is they do. That is why the Divine Law written in Reason results in our sistem of civil laws that rarely judge motive. What is judged is what is done or left undone in some cases.

    So we don´t vote for or against persons according to what they believe. We are to vote for them because of what it is they have done or say they will do.

    So why wont I vote for Romney then, and not do so BECAUSE he is a Mormon? Mormons are taught, formally so, that it is a virtue to lie if lying is the means justified by a desired end. Romney changes his position depending upon what people want to hear as a formal part of his belief system.

    Ex Mormon missionaries make awesome salesmen. I would hire one to do sales in a quick minute over almost anyone else. truly. But as POTUS? Nope.

    In addition, would I want to elevate Mormonism and legitimize it by having a former mormon pastor district president be in the White House? again no . why not? I lived in utah for a year.I went to BYU the mormon university. I lived for over a year with 8 return mormon missionaries. They were incredibly wonderful people. But that experience would not allow me to vote for a mormon for president.

    It would be good to hear from Lutherans and other christians who live in utah and southern idaho. I would not vote for a devout muslim for the same reasons SG. or a scientologist. Roman catholic or other christian. yes. buddhist. yes. shinto. yes. confucian. for sure. atheist. yup. agnostic. yes. etc etc etc.

    not all religions have peaceful intentions and not all have such animus against christianity as do mormons when they speak privately among each other.

  • fws

    sg @ 102

    Generally you are right SG. Why? God rules and judges men , on earth, by what it is they do. That is why the Divine Law written in Reason results in our sistem of civil laws that rarely judge motive. What is judged is what is done or left undone in some cases.

    So we don´t vote for or against persons according to what they believe. We are to vote for them because of what it is they have done or say they will do.

    So why wont I vote for Romney then, and not do so BECAUSE he is a Mormon? Mormons are taught, formally so, that it is a virtue to lie if lying is the means justified by a desired end. Romney changes his position depending upon what people want to hear as a formal part of his belief system.

    Ex Mormon missionaries make awesome salesmen. I would hire one to do sales in a quick minute over almost anyone else. truly. But as POTUS? Nope.

    In addition, would I want to elevate Mormonism and legitimize it by having a former mormon pastor district president be in the White House? again no . why not? I lived in utah for a year.I went to BYU the mormon university. I lived for over a year with 8 return mormon missionaries. They were incredibly wonderful people. But that experience would not allow me to vote for a mormon for president.

    It would be good to hear from Lutherans and other christians who live in utah and southern idaho. I would not vote for a devout muslim for the same reasons SG. or a scientologist. Roman catholic or other christian. yes. buddhist. yes. shinto. yes. confucian. for sure. atheist. yup. agnostic. yes. etc etc etc.

    not all religions have peaceful intentions and not all have such animus against christianity as do mormons when they speak privately among each other.

  • fws

    sg

    on the other hand. if romney does get elected, which is entirely possible, I cant imagine a more liberal, RINO Republican being elected! Is he really going to do anything pro life? naw. reduce the deficit? no. any other conservative things? no. It will look MORE liberal than Obama. why? He will get the same democratic support as obama because his policies will be the same. plus he will also get support from the republicans. so we will turn more liberal as a result.

  • fws

    sg

    on the other hand. if romney does get elected, which is entirely possible, I cant imagine a more liberal, RINO Republican being elected! Is he really going to do anything pro life? naw. reduce the deficit? no. any other conservative things? no. It will look MORE liberal than Obama. why? He will get the same democratic support as obama because his policies will be the same. plus he will also get support from the republicans. so we will turn more liberal as a result.

  • fws

    sg

    at least now, the republicans are resisting obama just because he is a democrat. Romney will look just like Obama in his policies all around only he will be republican.

  • fws

    sg

    at least now, the republicans are resisting obama just because he is a democrat. Romney will look just like Obama in his policies all around only he will be republican.

  • Wayne A.

    Yes Romney would probably govern like a liberal, just like Bush did, and then when things come all crashing down Liberals will blame conservatism for the problems, even though conservatism will have nothing to do with it. Just as they are now. Bush may be in part to blame for the mess the economy is in, but it wasn’t conservative Ideas that caused the problems. It wasn’t a conservative impulse that gave out multiple billions of dollars in home loans to people who had no hope of paying them back. I remember it clearing, both Republican and Democrats back on 06 and even into early 07 celebrating the fact that Home ownership, percentage wise was the highest it had ever been. But it was a bubble, it was only make believe, it was a house of cards that had to fall at some point and fall it did. It fell because it wasn’t free market, it fell because Government was putting it’s thumb on the scale through the Community Reinvestment Act.

    The government is great at creating a mess and then giving itself more power in order to clean up the mess. What’s that saying, “Never let a crisis go to waste.”

  • Wayne A.

    Yes Romney would probably govern like a liberal, just like Bush did, and then when things come all crashing down Liberals will blame conservatism for the problems, even though conservatism will have nothing to do with it. Just as they are now. Bush may be in part to blame for the mess the economy is in, but it wasn’t conservative Ideas that caused the problems. It wasn’t a conservative impulse that gave out multiple billions of dollars in home loans to people who had no hope of paying them back. I remember it clearing, both Republican and Democrats back on 06 and even into early 07 celebrating the fact that Home ownership, percentage wise was the highest it had ever been. But it was a bubble, it was only make believe, it was a house of cards that had to fall at some point and fall it did. It fell because it wasn’t free market, it fell because Government was putting it’s thumb on the scale through the Community Reinvestment Act.

    The government is great at creating a mess and then giving itself more power in order to clean up the mess. What’s that saying, “Never let a crisis go to waste.”

  • Wayne A.

    As far as the debate. I saw an angry old white guy, and aren’t angry old white guys the ones the democrates keep telling us to watch out for?

  • Wayne A.

    As far as the debate. I saw an angry old white guy, and aren’t angry old white guys the ones the democrates keep telling us to watch out for?

  • socapa

    @ fjsteve Oct 13,2012 ,1:27pm. I,personally,made nothing up;as that post at CHT was not written by me.The post in question ,forwarded by a ‘facebook friend’of the editor,wwas posted with the,obviously,necessary disclaimer.I have been reading CHT for two years now and have found them to be a reliable conservative voice,expressing the kind of dependable conservative views that one would never hope to find on so-called “conservative”talk radio.If you were to have read them over a considerable length of time you would understand the ‘context’ in whichthat article was reposted.And CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!

  • socapa

    @ fjsteve Oct 13,2012 ,1:27pm. I,personally,made nothing up;as that post at CHT was not written by me.The post in question ,forwarded by a ‘facebook friend’of the editor,wwas posted with the,obviously,necessary disclaimer.I have been reading CHT for two years now and have found them to be a reliable conservative voice,expressing the kind of dependable conservative views that one would never hope to find on so-called “conservative”talk radio.If you were to have read them over a considerable length of time you would understand the ‘context’ in whichthat article was reposted.And CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!


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