Hispanics as a conservative constituency

One reason for President Obama’s big re-election victory is that Hispanics turned out for him in record numbers.  71% voted for him, with Mitt Romney  getting only 27% of the Hispanic vote.  George W. Bush got 44%, so it’s not impossible for Republicans to get Hispanic votes.  Unlike Bush, Romney came across as anti-Hispanic, due to his tough stance and characteristically tone-deaf comments about immigration.  But, in fact, Hispanic voters May have the potential of becoming part of the conservative base.  From Jonathan Capehart:

Every month for the next two decades, 50,000 Hispanics will turn 18.

Just to be clear, that’s 50,000 U.S.-born people every month for the next 20 years who become eligible to vote. [Whit] Ayres cited this stunning statistic that was highlighted in a study of the Hispanic electorate by Resurgent Republic, a conservative nonprofit research group on whose board he sits. That report also highlights the promise and the peril for the Republican Party in reaching Latino voters.

Of the 10.9 million Latinos registered to vote, 51 percent of them are Democrats and 18 percent are Republicans. But when you view them through an ideological prism, 54 percent of Hispanics identify as “conservative” while 39 percent say they are “liberal.”

via 50,000 shades of dismay for the GOP – PostPartisan – The Washington Post.

After all, most Hispanics are conservative Catholics, are extremely family-oriented, and are hard workers.  They would be a natural conservative constituency, if the whole immigration issue could be solved.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • Nathaniel

    Heather MacDonald has done some research in this area and finds out that the conventional wisdom isn’t true. It turns out that, at least for California Hispanics, Republican economic policies are the biggest factor. Immigration is only the biggest factor for 7% of the population. They also aren’t necessarily social conservatives, as they support gay marriage and have an out of wedlock birth rate twice that of whites. Read more here. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/332916/why-hispanics-dont-vote-republicans-heather-mac-donald

  • Nathaniel

    Heather MacDonald has done some research in this area and finds out that the conventional wisdom isn’t true. It turns out that, at least for California Hispanics, Republican economic policies are the biggest factor. Immigration is only the biggest factor for 7% of the population. They also aren’t necessarily social conservatives, as they support gay marriage and have an out of wedlock birth rate twice that of whites. Read more here. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/332916/why-hispanics-dont-vote-republicans-heather-mac-donald

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    It has been said that Hispanics by and large are socially conservative but economically liberal. As with anything else I’m sure there are exceptions to this rule.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    It has been said that Hispanics by and large are socially conservative but economically liberal. As with anything else I’m sure there are exceptions to this rule.

  • brianh

    Hispanics want income redistribution and an unsustainable welfare state.

  • brianh

    Hispanics want income redistribution and an unsustainable welfare state.

  • Kirk

    Yeah, but even if the immigration issue gets resolved, Republicans would need to work up some pretty snappy slogans to erase the years of hardship that illegals have experienced as a result of conservatives’ policies:

    “Self-deport to the Republican Party.”

    “The Republican Party can be your anchor, baby!”

    “English: learn it or get the hell to the Republican Party!”

    But seriously: Republicans have been advocating for policies that literally made the lives of Hispanics and their families hellish. Policies that promoted fear and paranoia. Policies that created economic hardship. Policies that tore families apart. Policies that prevented Hispanic children from being educated. If you look at states like Alabama and Arizona, the way illegal immigrants and even Hispanics citizen are treated is almost dystopian. I agree completely that Hispanics are a natural, conservative-leaning voting block, but I wonder if the past decade of Republican policy on immigration has done its damage and completely alienated Latin American immigrants from the party.

  • Kirk

    Yeah, but even if the immigration issue gets resolved, Republicans would need to work up some pretty snappy slogans to erase the years of hardship that illegals have experienced as a result of conservatives’ policies:

    “Self-deport to the Republican Party.”

    “The Republican Party can be your anchor, baby!”

    “English: learn it or get the hell to the Republican Party!”

    But seriously: Republicans have been advocating for policies that literally made the lives of Hispanics and their families hellish. Policies that promoted fear and paranoia. Policies that created economic hardship. Policies that tore families apart. Policies that prevented Hispanic children from being educated. If you look at states like Alabama and Arizona, the way illegal immigrants and even Hispanics citizen are treated is almost dystopian. I agree completely that Hispanics are a natural, conservative-leaning voting block, but I wonder if the past decade of Republican policy on immigration has done its damage and completely alienated Latin American immigrants from the party.

  • Kirk

    @3

    One reason I love this blog is that can’t tell if you are serious or not…

  • Kirk

    @3

    One reason I love this blog is that can’t tell if you are serious or not…

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    “Hispanics as a conservative constituency”

    That’s funny! I needed a laugh this morning. Thanks. :D

  • http://theoldadam.com/ Steve Martin

    “Hispanics as a conservative constituency”

    That’s funny! I needed a laugh this morning. Thanks. :D

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    After all, most Hispanics are conservative Catholics, are extremely family-oriented, and are hard workers. They would be a natural conservative constituency, if the whole immigration issue could be solved.

    No. Low performing groups like hispanics are not going to vote for policies that are currently labeled conservative. They cannot compete, and will always want special deals and subsidies for their group. The larger their group becomes the more oppressive they will be. It will be the tyranny of the (low performing) majority.

    You have to love the skill of the Democrats in selling the low performing Americans “free” health care instead of higher wages. Since people already get health care whether they pay for it or not, the Supreme Court is correct in calling it a tax. Rather than force employers to pay workers a higher minimum wage, which workers could choose how to spend, they force employers to provide health insurance instead.

    Hospital stocks are up after the election. Yeah, investors expect higher profits. And keep the door open to immigrants. More people means more health care that can’t easily be outsourced.

    Does the health care act have a way to increase health care providers relative to health care paperwork shufflers? Does the health care act have a way to keep the best providers from leaving and just going to totally private all cash paying customers?

    The health care act seems to be an acknowledgement that the status quo now is a population that on average are unwilling and unable to plan and manage their own affairs.

    Hispanics citizen are treated is almost dystopian. I agree completely that Hispanics are a natural, conservative-leaning voting block,

    On average, hispanic women have the highest per capita illegitimacy rate of all ethnic/racial groups. There is nothing conservative about them.

    Birth rates for unmarried women have varied fairly consistently by race and Hispanic origin. The rates for Hispanic women (106 births per 1,000 unmarried women in 2006) and black women (72 per 1,000) were highest. Birth rates for unmarried non-Hispanic white (32 per 1,000) and Asian or Pacific Islander (API) women (26 per 1,000) were much lower.

    Low performing, low social functioning people are not going to go for policies that require a population of self-reliant, high socially functioning people. Not happening.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    After all, most Hispanics are conservative Catholics, are extremely family-oriented, and are hard workers. They would be a natural conservative constituency, if the whole immigration issue could be solved.

    No. Low performing groups like hispanics are not going to vote for policies that are currently labeled conservative. They cannot compete, and will always want special deals and subsidies for their group. The larger their group becomes the more oppressive they will be. It will be the tyranny of the (low performing) majority.

    You have to love the skill of the Democrats in selling the low performing Americans “free” health care instead of higher wages. Since people already get health care whether they pay for it or not, the Supreme Court is correct in calling it a tax. Rather than force employers to pay workers a higher minimum wage, which workers could choose how to spend, they force employers to provide health insurance instead.

    Hospital stocks are up after the election. Yeah, investors expect higher profits. And keep the door open to immigrants. More people means more health care that can’t easily be outsourced.

    Does the health care act have a way to increase health care providers relative to health care paperwork shufflers? Does the health care act have a way to keep the best providers from leaving and just going to totally private all cash paying customers?

    The health care act seems to be an acknowledgement that the status quo now is a population that on average are unwilling and unable to plan and manage their own affairs.

    Hispanics citizen are treated is almost dystopian. I agree completely that Hispanics are a natural, conservative-leaning voting block,

    On average, hispanic women have the highest per capita illegitimacy rate of all ethnic/racial groups. There is nothing conservative about them.

    Birth rates for unmarried women have varied fairly consistently by race and Hispanic origin. The rates for Hispanic women (106 births per 1,000 unmarried women in 2006) and black women (72 per 1,000) were highest. Birth rates for unmarried non-Hispanic white (32 per 1,000) and Asian or Pacific Islander (API) women (26 per 1,000) were much lower.

    Low performing, low social functioning people are not going to go for policies that require a population of self-reliant, high socially functioning people. Not happening.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Birth rates for unmarried women have varied fairly consistently by race and Hispanic origin. The rates for Hispanic women (106 births per 1,000 unmarried women in 2006) and black women (72 per 1,000) were highest. Birth rates for unmarried non-Hispanic white (32 per 1,000) and Asian or Pacific Islander (API) women (26 per 1,000) were much lower.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.htm

    Hispanic immigrants are not family oriented in the sense of nuclear family. Also, socialistic policies that tax all men to pay for all children mean that the most attractive men will be fathering most of the children and sending the rest of the men the bill.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Birth rates for unmarried women have varied fairly consistently by race and Hispanic origin. The rates for Hispanic women (106 births per 1,000 unmarried women in 2006) and black women (72 per 1,000) were highest. Birth rates for unmarried non-Hispanic white (32 per 1,000) and Asian or Pacific Islander (API) women (26 per 1,000) were much lower.

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.htm

    Hispanic immigrants are not family oriented in the sense of nuclear family. Also, socialistic policies that tax all men to pay for all children mean that the most attractive men will be fathering most of the children and sending the rest of the men the bill.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you look at states like Alabama and Arizona, the way illegal immigrants and even Hispanics citizen are treated is almost dystopian.

    Gosh, makes you wonder why they don’t go running home to their utopian homelands where they were treated so wonderfully and everything is just rainbows and happiness. Oh wait, their homelands were wrecked by people just like themselves who like running illegal drug operations to supply all those dope smoking Republican suburbanites.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    If you look at states like Alabama and Arizona, the way illegal immigrants and even Hispanics citizen are treated is almost dystopian.

    Gosh, makes you wonder why they don’t go running home to their utopian homelands where they were treated so wonderfully and everything is just rainbows and happiness. Oh wait, their homelands were wrecked by people just like themselves who like running illegal drug operations to supply all those dope smoking Republican suburbanites.

  • Jon

    Conservative or not, what I really don’t get is the connection between Hispanic voters and immigration law concern. I mean, if they’re voting, they’ve got their citizenship, right? Why should they care?

    Is it because some of them used to not be citizens–or even undocumented migrants–themselves, or maybe they know someone, a relative or friend perhaps, who is in that category, such that they find immigration laws offensive on a personal level?

    Or is it an ethnic identity thing that drives it, like, I’m Hispanic, and here are all these other Hispanics who, but for the fate of where they were born and the US laws, they cannot also have what I have as a US citizen, and therefore, I find the laws offensive?

    If the bulk of the undocumented immigrant “problem” shifted from south of the border to, say, eastern Europe, would the Hispanic voters care about immigration laws?

  • Jon

    Conservative or not, what I really don’t get is the connection between Hispanic voters and immigration law concern. I mean, if they’re voting, they’ve got their citizenship, right? Why should they care?

    Is it because some of them used to not be citizens–or even undocumented migrants–themselves, or maybe they know someone, a relative or friend perhaps, who is in that category, such that they find immigration laws offensive on a personal level?

    Or is it an ethnic identity thing that drives it, like, I’m Hispanic, and here are all these other Hispanics who, but for the fate of where they were born and the US laws, they cannot also have what I have as a US citizen, and therefore, I find the laws offensive?

    If the bulk of the undocumented immigrant “problem” shifted from south of the border to, say, eastern Europe, would the Hispanic voters care about immigration laws?

  • Kirk

    @ sg

    Oh! That’s another great slogan!

    “Vote Republican and we’ll treat you slightly better than cartel bosses would.”

    sg, let me ask you: could there be any correlation between single parenthood and the lack of legal status that would allow immigrants to marry? Or any correlation to one parent being deported and leaving the other to raise their children. Could there be a correlation between “under-performance” and the lack of legal status that would allow one to gain good, decent paying jobs, worker’s rights, and education. Could there be any correlation between a tearing of social fabric and policies that force a population into hiding an transiency? Or are you suggesting that social difficulty is natural to Hispanic people?

  • Kirk

    @ sg

    Oh! That’s another great slogan!

    “Vote Republican and we’ll treat you slightly better than cartel bosses would.”

    sg, let me ask you: could there be any correlation between single parenthood and the lack of legal status that would allow immigrants to marry? Or any correlation to one parent being deported and leaving the other to raise their children. Could there be a correlation between “under-performance” and the lack of legal status that would allow one to gain good, decent paying jobs, worker’s rights, and education. Could there be any correlation between a tearing of social fabric and policies that force a population into hiding an transiency? Or are you suggesting that social difficulty is natural to Hispanic people?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or is it an ethnic identity thing that drives it,”

    Yes!

    “If the bulk of the undocumented immigrant “problem” shifted from south of the border to, say, eastern Europe, would the Hispanic voters care about immigration laws?”

    No.

    Hispanic countries have very strict immigration laws. They sure as heck don’t want poor people coming in to take their jobs, land, etc. The elites also don’t want high performing immigrants like South Asians coming in to stay and displace their children from rent seeking positions.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Or is it an ethnic identity thing that drives it,”

    Yes!

    “If the bulk of the undocumented immigrant “problem” shifted from south of the border to, say, eastern Europe, would the Hispanic voters care about immigration laws?”

    No.

    Hispanic countries have very strict immigration laws. They sure as heck don’t want poor people coming in to take their jobs, land, etc. The elites also don’t want high performing immigrants like South Asians coming in to stay and displace their children from rent seeking positions.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    > Every month for the next two decades,
    > 50,000 Hispanics will turn 18.

    Ok…. How does that compare to other ethnicities?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    > Every month for the next two decades,
    > 50,000 Hispanics will turn 18.

    Ok…. How does that compare to other ethnicities?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Could there be any correlation between a tearing of social fabric and policies that force a population into hiding an transiency?”

    A little vague. I will substitute specifics.

    If we had strict enforcement of immigration laws, fewer would be here and therefore would not be separated from families. So, yes, our policy of non-enforcement hurts families. Such policies have a more negative effect on those who need more extrinsic motivation and incentive to behave in socially healthy and positive ways. Highly principled people are less affected. Since the effect on hispanics is rapid and severe, the inference is that their intrinsic ability or their personal principles are not sufficiently developed to withstand the assault of stupid public policies that incentivize dysfunction.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Could there be any correlation between a tearing of social fabric and policies that force a population into hiding an transiency?”

    A little vague. I will substitute specifics.

    If we had strict enforcement of immigration laws, fewer would be here and therefore would not be separated from families. So, yes, our policy of non-enforcement hurts families. Such policies have a more negative effect on those who need more extrinsic motivation and incentive to behave in socially healthy and positive ways. Highly principled people are less affected. Since the effect on hispanics is rapid and severe, the inference is that their intrinsic ability or their personal principles are not sufficiently developed to withstand the assault of stupid public policies that incentivize dysfunction.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Vote Republican and we’ll treat you slightly better than cartel bosses would.”

    Does it ever occur to you to blame the people who actually cause the problems?

    Anyway, Mexico is ranked #2 in the world for obesity rate. Mexicans in Mexico will not be starving if they are prevented from settling here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Vote Republican and we’ll treat you slightly better than cartel bosses would.”

    Does it ever occur to you to blame the people who actually cause the problems?

    Anyway, Mexico is ranked #2 in the world for obesity rate. Mexicans in Mexico will not be starving if they are prevented from settling here.

  • Kirk

    @15

    Ooooooh, I get it! All this time you’be been thinking that advocacy for a humane, intelligent and consistent immigration policy in the US is an endorsement of the cartels! Of course!

    Well, to be perfectly honest, no, I don’t think that cartels are good. The whole decapitation and skinning of opponents / mass murder / exploitation of innocents makes me a little squeamish. It probably does have something to do with why so many Mexicans flee their country for ours. I think we agree on this. But this is where our logical paths diverge.

    You see, I think that innocent people driven from their countries by violence, exploitation and deprivation shouldn’t be treated like dirt when they cross our borders.

    You seem to think that since they have babies outside of wedlock, they’re lesser beings.

  • Kirk

    @15

    Ooooooh, I get it! All this time you’be been thinking that advocacy for a humane, intelligent and consistent immigration policy in the US is an endorsement of the cartels! Of course!

    Well, to be perfectly honest, no, I don’t think that cartels are good. The whole decapitation and skinning of opponents / mass murder / exploitation of innocents makes me a little squeamish. It probably does have something to do with why so many Mexicans flee their country for ours. I think we agree on this. But this is where our logical paths diverge.

    You see, I think that innocent people driven from their countries by violence, exploitation and deprivation shouldn’t be treated like dirt when they cross our borders.

    You seem to think that since they have babies outside of wedlock, they’re lesser beings.

  • Kirk

    And I do get what you’re saying, that social ills experience by Hispanic people immigrating to the US aren’t totally the fault of the US government or Republicans. You’re right. But the US and Republicans haven’t exactly done immigrants any favors, either.

  • Kirk

    And I do get what you’re saying, that social ills experience by Hispanic people immigrating to the US aren’t totally the fault of the US government or Republicans. You’re right. But the US and Republicans haven’t exactly done immigrants any favors, either.

  • http://fivepintlutheran2.wordpress.com/ David Cochrane

    The republicans will never win until they recall how Reagan did. He could care a flip about John Average-Voter but never said so. Hold you cards close to your vest people.

  • http://fivepintlutheran2.wordpress.com/ David Cochrane

    The republicans will never win until they recall how Reagan did. He could care a flip about John Average-Voter but never said so. Hold you cards close to your vest people.

  • fjsteve

    Kirk, #47, I know quite a few Republican immigrants. Would you like to qualify your statement? Perhaps you’re referring to undocumented immigrants? If so, is it, or should it be, the policy of the United States government to favor undocumented immigrants?

  • fjsteve

    Kirk, #47, I know quite a few Republican immigrants. Would you like to qualify your statement? Perhaps you’re referring to undocumented immigrants? If so, is it, or should it be, the policy of the United States government to favor undocumented immigrants?

  • Kirk

    @fj

    That was a rhetorical device meaning that current immigration policy makes the lives of illegal immigrants (or any immigrant seeking residency or citizenship, for that matter) unnecessarily difficult.

  • Kirk

    @fj

    That was a rhetorical device meaning that current immigration policy makes the lives of illegal immigrants (or any immigrant seeking residency or citizenship, for that matter) unnecessarily difficult.

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    “You see, I think that innocent people driven from their countries by violence, exploitation and deprivation shouldn’t be treated like dirt when they cross our borders.”

    Who is treating them like dirt? Can you be specific?

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    “You see, I think that innocent people driven from their countries by violence, exploitation and deprivation shouldn’t be treated like dirt when they cross our borders.”

    Who is treating them like dirt? Can you be specific?

  • DonS

    The problem with the Hispanic population (other than Cubans, and to a lesser extent, Puerto Ricans) is that they come from corrupt countries with a history of terrible governance, and no concept of individual rights and liberties. The mindset in Mexico, for example, is not to reduce the size and scope of government so that people can be free, but rather to turn government so that its policies favor your group rather than another one. The pie is distributed by the government, and it’s your job to fight for as big a piece as you can get.

    We live amongst a huge population of ex patriate Mexicans here in southern California, both legal and illegal. They are, by and large, wonderful, friendly, hardworking people. They want to work to get ahead, and they are willing to do most anything to achieve their dreams. We need to educate our immigrants regarding the American ideals of the constitutional liberties and freedoms (from government opression) that we uniquely enjoy. Unfortunately, our public schools and establishment media are captive to Big Government interests, and no longer teach these ideals. It falls to we who are conservative to do the teaching, both of immigrants and our own children and those of our neighbors.

    In 2008, Proposition 8, the state constitutional amendment declaring that marriage is only between a man and a woman, passed 52.3% to 47.7%. However, it African-Americans voted for it with 58 – 70% support (depending upon the exit poll), and Latinos voted for it with 53% support. Whites and Asians only supported it at a 49% rate. This was in the same election in which McCain lost to Obama by over 20% in CA. So, clearly, there is a conservatism among Latinos as to social issues because of their Catholic roots.

  • DonS

    The problem with the Hispanic population (other than Cubans, and to a lesser extent, Puerto Ricans) is that they come from corrupt countries with a history of terrible governance, and no concept of individual rights and liberties. The mindset in Mexico, for example, is not to reduce the size and scope of government so that people can be free, but rather to turn government so that its policies favor your group rather than another one. The pie is distributed by the government, and it’s your job to fight for as big a piece as you can get.

    We live amongst a huge population of ex patriate Mexicans here in southern California, both legal and illegal. They are, by and large, wonderful, friendly, hardworking people. They want to work to get ahead, and they are willing to do most anything to achieve their dreams. We need to educate our immigrants regarding the American ideals of the constitutional liberties and freedoms (from government opression) that we uniquely enjoy. Unfortunately, our public schools and establishment media are captive to Big Government interests, and no longer teach these ideals. It falls to we who are conservative to do the teaching, both of immigrants and our own children and those of our neighbors.

    In 2008, Proposition 8, the state constitutional amendment declaring that marriage is only between a man and a woman, passed 52.3% to 47.7%. However, it African-Americans voted for it with 58 – 70% support (depending upon the exit poll), and Latinos voted for it with 53% support. Whites and Asians only supported it at a 49% rate. This was in the same election in which McCain lost to Obama by over 20% in CA. So, clearly, there is a conservatism among Latinos as to social issues because of their Catholic roots.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The mindset in Mexico, for example, is not to reduce the size and scope of government so that people can be free, but rather to turn government so that its policies favor your group rather than another one. The pie is distributed by the government, and it’s your job to fight for as big a piece as you can get.

    The mindset of Mexico = the mindset of Mexicans.

    Those people created that system. If we have enough of them here, they will create it here. It is who they are. That is why it is important to screen immigrants carefully and control immigration so that you get good immigrants. We do the opposite. We let it the law breakers ahead of the law abiding. Those willing to cut in line are more likely to be here than those willing to wait their turn.

    I don’t get why Kirk is so torqued by my stating that dysfunctional people are dysfunctional. Very strange. They are what they are. They aren’t like that because we are mean to them, which we aren’t. They would probably behave better if we were more demanding and less indulgent and patient.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The mindset in Mexico, for example, is not to reduce the size and scope of government so that people can be free, but rather to turn government so that its policies favor your group rather than another one. The pie is distributed by the government, and it’s your job to fight for as big a piece as you can get.

    The mindset of Mexico = the mindset of Mexicans.

    Those people created that system. If we have enough of them here, they will create it here. It is who they are. That is why it is important to screen immigrants carefully and control immigration so that you get good immigrants. We do the opposite. We let it the law breakers ahead of the law abiding. Those willing to cut in line are more likely to be here than those willing to wait their turn.

    I don’t get why Kirk is so torqued by my stating that dysfunctional people are dysfunctional. Very strange. They are what they are. They aren’t like that because we are mean to them, which we aren’t. They would probably behave better if we were more demanding and less indulgent and patient.

  • SKPeterson

    Look. While Hispanic immigration is a considerable issue facing America today, we seriously need to address the long-standing problems of Irish immigration: laziness, drunkenness, moral obtuseness, rampant papist Roman Catholicism, poor educational attainment, and an obvious lack of command of the English language. These people need to be deported and sent back to Ireland; may be we can keep a few, but they will have had to fully assimilate into American culture. I shudder to think of the day if/when my son brings home some Irish siren and shows her off as his “intended.” Bah! Miscegenating intentions indeed! Keep America for Americans and send the red-haired menace back home. If not for your jobs, your neighborhoods, or for the boon of society, do it for the children who will be faced with Irishmen everywhere destroying everything like moths and mold.

  • SKPeterson

    Look. While Hispanic immigration is a considerable issue facing America today, we seriously need to address the long-standing problems of Irish immigration: laziness, drunkenness, moral obtuseness, rampant papist Roman Catholicism, poor educational attainment, and an obvious lack of command of the English language. These people need to be deported and sent back to Ireland; may be we can keep a few, but they will have had to fully assimilate into American culture. I shudder to think of the day if/when my son brings home some Irish siren and shows her off as his “intended.” Bah! Miscegenating intentions indeed! Keep America for Americans and send the red-haired menace back home. If not for your jobs, your neighborhoods, or for the boon of society, do it for the children who will be faced with Irishmen everywhere destroying everything like moths and mold.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You seem to think that since they have babies outside of wedlock, they’re lesser beings.

    Hyperbole much?

    I said low social functioning, dysfunctional, low performing. They have habits/proclivities that will make them permanent underclass. Does an ethnically stratified society seem utopian to you? Or will your ideology just make you blame anyone else for their faults and failings? Because we all know it is impossible that it is their own fault, right?

    Remind me of the wonderful societies where illegitimacy promotes the general welfare. Remind me of how wonderful it is for children whose fathers abandon them. Please give us examples.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    You seem to think that since they have babies outside of wedlock, they’re lesser beings.

    Hyperbole much?

    I said low social functioning, dysfunctional, low performing. They have habits/proclivities that will make them permanent underclass. Does an ethnically stratified society seem utopian to you? Or will your ideology just make you blame anyone else for their faults and failings? Because we all know it is impossible that it is their own fault, right?

    Remind me of the wonderful societies where illegitimacy promotes the general welfare. Remind me of how wonderful it is for children whose fathers abandon them. Please give us examples.

  • Kirk

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama_HB_56

    Both of these state laws come readily to mind. But really, any sort of self-deportation law relies on the principle of making illegal immigrants lives in the United States so difficult that they will return to countries that they left to come to the United States.

    Realistically, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US, are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety beyond what they could find in their home countries. Their only crime is not working through legal systems to immigrate to the US. The notion of tearing families apart simply because a member of that family didn’t cross the border legally seems silly. To actively and purposefully hunt non-criminal illegal immigrants in order to deport them seems cruel. I understand that we can’t have open borders, but there are compromises between that and lock-down.

  • Kirk

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama_HB_56

    Both of these state laws come readily to mind. But really, any sort of self-deportation law relies on the principle of making illegal immigrants lives in the United States so difficult that they will return to countries that they left to come to the United States.

    Realistically, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US, are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety beyond what they could find in their home countries. Their only crime is not working through legal systems to immigrate to the US. The notion of tearing families apart simply because a member of that family didn’t cross the border legally seems silly. To actively and purposefully hunt non-criminal illegal immigrants in order to deport them seems cruel. I understand that we can’t have open borders, but there are compromises between that and lock-down.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Nice one, SKP :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Nice one, SKP :)

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @24

    4th generation hispanics have lower performance than 2nd generation. You can’t say that of the Irish. So, fail on the analogy. We have the historical record. These are statements of fact not imagination. Those illegitimacy numbers don’t lie. That is serious and dangerous social dysfunction.

    There is zero basis for the claim that hispanics are family oriented as compared to other groups. They aren’t.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @24

    4th generation hispanics have lower performance than 2nd generation. You can’t say that of the Irish. So, fail on the analogy. We have the historical record. These are statements of fact not imagination. Those illegitimacy numbers don’t lie. That is serious and dangerous social dysfunction.

    There is zero basis for the claim that hispanics are family oriented as compared to other groups. They aren’t.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Realistically, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US, are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety beyond what they could find in their home countries.

    Ugh, you mean beyond what they had the ability to create in their home countries.

    Their only crime is not working through legal systems to immigrate to the US. The notion of tearing families apart simply because a member of that family didn’t cross the border legally seems silly.

    Fine their families can be reunited with them in their countries of origin. No problem. Since they are such an asset, they should be able to fix their countries.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Realistically, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US, are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety beyond what they could find in their home countries.

    Ugh, you mean beyond what they had the ability to create in their home countries.

    Their only crime is not working through legal systems to immigrate to the US. The notion of tearing families apart simply because a member of that family didn’t cross the border legally seems silly.

    Fine their families can be reunited with them in their countries of origin. No problem. Since they are such an asset, they should be able to fix their countries.

  • SKPeterson

    Why can’t we have open borders, Kirk? If my property rights are secure whether I am in Canada, the U.S. or Mexico, why should I care who comes to our country?

  • SKPeterson

    Why can’t we have open borders, Kirk? If my property rights are secure whether I am in Canada, the U.S. or Mexico, why should I care who comes to our country?

  • Kirk

    @sg 25

    Yes, because no immigrant group from a dysfunctional nation has ever come to America and been successful. Never. Not the Italians, not the Irish, not the Poles, or the Russians. Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Germans, or Ethiopians.

    Do you seriously think that influence only works one way? That a minority people group comes to a country and permanently molds that country to conform to what they fled from, while remaining unchanged by their new country? Is that how you think things work?

    And FYI, calling a people group “low social functioning, dysfunctional, low performing” with “habits/proclivities that will make them permanent underclass” does mean that you think of them as lesser beings. Those characteristics that you ascribe to the entire Hispanic people group basically meets the definition of a lesser being.

  • Kirk

    @sg 25

    Yes, because no immigrant group from a dysfunctional nation has ever come to America and been successful. Never. Not the Italians, not the Irish, not the Poles, or the Russians. Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Germans, or Ethiopians.

    Do you seriously think that influence only works one way? That a minority people group comes to a country and permanently molds that country to conform to what they fled from, while remaining unchanged by their new country? Is that how you think things work?

    And FYI, calling a people group “low social functioning, dysfunctional, low performing” with “habits/proclivities that will make them permanent underclass” does mean that you think of them as lesser beings. Those characteristics that you ascribe to the entire Hispanic people group basically meets the definition of a lesser being.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Gee, where do you find (!) social safety? You don’t find it. You make it. It is called rule of law. But they don’t believe in rule of law. Apparently Kirk doesn’t either; those silly laws. They cheat to get here and cheat when they get here. The only thing stopping them from what ill they may do is someone else. It doesn’t come from them. They don’t create social safety. That is why they don’t have it in their countries.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Gee, where do you find (!) social safety? You don’t find it. You make it. It is called rule of law. But they don’t believe in rule of law. Apparently Kirk doesn’t either; those silly laws. They cheat to get here and cheat when they get here. The only thing stopping them from what ill they may do is someone else. It doesn’t come from them. They don’t create social safety. That is why they don’t have it in their countries.

  • Kirk

    @sg 29

    Oh right! We should just send the Mexicans back to their country to stand up to the paramilitaries that have murdered 40,000 people over the past 6 years! That will fix everything! The problem is totally just that they’re too lazy to solve their own problems!

    Actually, now that I think about it, why didn’t your ancestors just fix whatever they didn’t like in the country that they immigrated from and stay the hell out of America?

  • Kirk

    @sg 29

    Oh right! We should just send the Mexicans back to their country to stand up to the paramilitaries that have murdered 40,000 people over the past 6 years! That will fix everything! The problem is totally just that they’re too lazy to solve their own problems!

    Actually, now that I think about it, why didn’t your ancestors just fix whatever they didn’t like in the country that they immigrated from and stay the hell out of America?

  • Kirk

    @32

    Good point, actually. No one has ever passed a bad law before.

  • Kirk

    @32

    Good point, actually. No one has ever passed a bad law before.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yes, because no immigrant group from a dysfunctional nation has ever come to America and been successful. Never. Not the Italians, not the Irish, not the Poles, or the Russians. Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Germans,

    Uh, what?! Those are not low functioning. Fail.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Yes, because no immigrant group from a dysfunctional nation has ever come to America and been successful. Never. Not the Italians, not the Irish, not the Poles, or the Russians. Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Germans,

    Uh, what?! Those are not low functioning. Fail.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    And when you speed while driving, SG (@32), you demonstrate that you also, completely fail to believe whatsoever in the rule of law. Because you’re cheating in order to carry out your selfish whims. By that fact, you would cheat in any other method possible, including in far worse ways.

    Hey, it’s your argument, not mine. Enjoy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    And when you speed while driving, SG (@32), you demonstrate that you also, completely fail to believe whatsoever in the rule of law. Because you’re cheating in order to carry out your selfish whims. By that fact, you would cheat in any other method possible, including in far worse ways.

    Hey, it’s your argument, not mine. Enjoy.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, SG, can you define “functioning” again? You seem to have imagined a simple one-dimensional axis. What informs that view?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Also, SG, can you define “functioning” again? You seem to have imagined a simple one-dimensional axis. What informs that view?

  • Kirk

    @35

    There’s a thing called history that you should read.

  • Kirk

    @35

    There’s a thing called history that you should read.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Actually, now that I think about it, why didn’t your ancestors just fix whatever they didn’t like in the country that they immigrated from and stay the hell out of America?”

    Because they got permission to come.

    Once here they grew food to feed other people’s families.

    They obeyed the laws and helped create here the kind of societies from which they came: high trust societies.

    Look, I know the truth offends you, but if we all go along with what you say, it won’t work. You seem to think that if you just have faith in people they will live up to your dreams. They won’t. We already know what they are like and the kind of society they build. We are just sticking our heads in the sand or wearing danger vision goggles when we pretend they will change when they come here. They haven’t yet so what basis is there to think they will? There isn’t. There is just hope that they will change. More likely they will continue to try to vote themselves a greater share of whatever is produced in the aggregate.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “Actually, now that I think about it, why didn’t your ancestors just fix whatever they didn’t like in the country that they immigrated from and stay the hell out of America?”

    Because they got permission to come.

    Once here they grew food to feed other people’s families.

    They obeyed the laws and helped create here the kind of societies from which they came: high trust societies.

    Look, I know the truth offends you, but if we all go along with what you say, it won’t work. You seem to think that if you just have faith in people they will live up to your dreams. They won’t. We already know what they are like and the kind of society they build. We are just sticking our heads in the sand or wearing danger vision goggles when we pretend they will change when they come here. They haven’t yet so what basis is there to think they will? There isn’t. There is just hope that they will change. More likely they will continue to try to vote themselves a greater share of whatever is produced in the aggregate.

  • SKPeterson

    sg – If 4th generation Hispanics are achieving results demonstrably less than 2nd generation Hispanic immigrants, would that not indicate that the problem is not immigration per se, but rather a faintly damning indictment of our education system? Can we even really speak of 4th generation immigrants? In fact, when you say, “[t]here is zero basis for the claim that hispanics are family oriented as compared to other groups. They aren’t, ” it would be indicative that they have been fully Americanized, in the post-modern American casual consumer cultural sense. Unfortunately for Hispanics, then, assimilation works only too well. They absorb our prevalent social pathologies, without having the cultural stability to overcome those pathologies. However, from Kirk’s perspective, the prevalence and dominance of those social pathologies might gain strength more from the family separating nature of immigration policies that fray existing social and cultural bonds. Oddly, for the conservative social values to prevail in the Hispanic community over the long haul, we would want to encourage and actively support expedited family reunion programs and militate against splitting families up.

  • SKPeterson

    sg – If 4th generation Hispanics are achieving results demonstrably less than 2nd generation Hispanic immigrants, would that not indicate that the problem is not immigration per se, but rather a faintly damning indictment of our education system? Can we even really speak of 4th generation immigrants? In fact, when you say, “[t]here is zero basis for the claim that hispanics are family oriented as compared to other groups. They aren’t, ” it would be indicative that they have been fully Americanized, in the post-modern American casual consumer cultural sense. Unfortunately for Hispanics, then, assimilation works only too well. They absorb our prevalent social pathologies, without having the cultural stability to overcome those pathologies. However, from Kirk’s perspective, the prevalence and dominance of those social pathologies might gain strength more from the family separating nature of immigration policies that fray existing social and cultural bonds. Oddly, for the conservative social values to prevail in the Hispanic community over the long haul, we would want to encourage and actively support expedited family reunion programs and militate against splitting families up.

  • SAL

    I’ve noticed some criticism of my state’s (Alabama’s) immigration laws above.

    Those laws have been substatially altered and I’m not certain what in them today would be considered controversial.

    The primary things that have occurred as a result were that farmers have to go through more effort to find laborers and certain low skill occupations have rising wages to attract native labor.

    Besides that we’ve had little noticeable effects and no serious allegations have been made of mistreatment of illegal aliens by state or local officials.

    It seems to me that this manufactured furor is primarily playing on negative stereotypes of a long gone Alabama and not based in fact.

  • SAL

    I’ve noticed some criticism of my state’s (Alabama’s) immigration laws above.

    Those laws have been substatially altered and I’m not certain what in them today would be considered controversial.

    The primary things that have occurred as a result were that farmers have to go through more effort to find laborers and certain low skill occupations have rising wages to attract native labor.

    Besides that we’ve had little noticeable effects and no serious allegations have been made of mistreatment of illegal aliens by state or local officials.

    It seems to me that this manufactured furor is primarily playing on negative stereotypes of a long gone Alabama and not based in fact.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @37

    Function is relative. Just as Asians come and do better and are therefore higher functioning. Hispanics come and do worse, so by comparison are lower functioning. They have high illegitimacy, low school performance, higher crime, even after many generations, higher crime, etc.

    The real solution is to just enforce the law. If we choose who comes from any country, we will get good people. It isn’t their ethnicity or even their number, it is who they are. People who break the law to get here are on average much lower performing than those we choose to let in.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @37

    Function is relative. Just as Asians come and do better and are therefore higher functioning. Hispanics come and do worse, so by comparison are lower functioning. They have high illegitimacy, low school performance, higher crime, even after many generations, higher crime, etc.

    The real solution is to just enforce the law. If we choose who comes from any country, we will get good people. It isn’t their ethnicity or even their number, it is who they are. People who break the law to get here are on average much lower performing than those we choose to let in.

  • Kirk

    @sg 39

    The truth is this: you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The truth is that you’re generalizing based on your limited view of the world and own sense of superiority. The truth is that you’re using the same sort of bigoted rhetoric and pseudo social science that has been used to oppose every wave of immigration that has hit American shores since America actually began, from the Irish, back to the Germans. The truth is that you can’t back up anything you say because everything that you say is based on conjecture and is complete BS.

  • Kirk

    @sg 39

    The truth is this: you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The truth is that you’re generalizing based on your limited view of the world and own sense of superiority. The truth is that you’re using the same sort of bigoted rhetoric and pseudo social science that has been used to oppose every wave of immigration that has hit American shores since America actually began, from the Irish, back to the Germans. The truth is that you can’t back up anything you say because everything that you say is based on conjecture and is complete BS.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    What, exactly, do we owe illegal immigrants anyway? You insist, with much metaphorical wringing of conscientious hands, that we treat illegal immigrants “unnecessarily” “like dirt.” Apparently, refusing to offer illegal immigrants free public education, free public healthcare, and a host of other “free” public benefits constitutes dirt-like treatment. And to boot, some heartless conservatives even want to deport illegal immigrants back to their home countries!

    Really? Look, I know this is a difficult issue–that the problem of illegal immigration is to some degree intractable, and does not admit of simple answers like “deport them all” or “give them all amnesty”–but hyperbolic, emotive rhetoric like yours doesn’t help. Think about it: what do we really owe to non-citizens who do not have permission to be here? By your telling, they’re all political refugees who deserve to be welcomed with open arms and showered with gifts from the public treasury.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    What, exactly, do we owe illegal immigrants anyway? You insist, with much metaphorical wringing of conscientious hands, that we treat illegal immigrants “unnecessarily” “like dirt.” Apparently, refusing to offer illegal immigrants free public education, free public healthcare, and a host of other “free” public benefits constitutes dirt-like treatment. And to boot, some heartless conservatives even want to deport illegal immigrants back to their home countries!

    Really? Look, I know this is a difficult issue–that the problem of illegal immigration is to some degree intractable, and does not admit of simple answers like “deport them all” or “give them all amnesty”–but hyperbolic, emotive rhetoric like yours doesn’t help. Think about it: what do we really owe to non-citizens who do not have permission to be here? By your telling, they’re all political refugees who deserve to be welcomed with open arms and showered with gifts from the public treasury.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, Kirk–and Veith–Hispanics may be somewhat conservative in cultural sentiment, but they are not politically conservative. Polling shows that 67% of Latinos favor a “larger government that provides more services” than it already does. Sorry, but I don’t think Republicans can–or should–widen the tent to embrace that message.

    Such evidence should also give the lie to Kirk’s narrative that Hispanics would just vote Republican if the G.O.P. would just stop being so gosh-darn mean to illegals. Hispanic and Latino voters want stuff from the government, and that’s why they vote the way they do.

  • Cincinnatus

    Also, Kirk–and Veith–Hispanics may be somewhat conservative in cultural sentiment, but they are not politically conservative. Polling shows that 67% of Latinos favor a “larger government that provides more services” than it already does. Sorry, but I don’t think Republicans can–or should–widen the tent to embrace that message.

    Such evidence should also give the lie to Kirk’s narrative that Hispanics would just vote Republican if the G.O.P. would just stop being so gosh-darn mean to illegals. Hispanic and Latino voters want stuff from the government, and that’s why they vote the way they do.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@42), so you’re defining “functioning” as an agglomeration of illegitimacy rates, public school performance, and “crime” (whatever that might mean to you) among certain demographic groups, is that right?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@42), so you’re defining “functioning” as an agglomeration of illegitimacy rates, public school performance, and “crime” (whatever that might mean to you) among certain demographic groups, is that right?

  • SKPeterson

    Todd @ 46 – such a definition would also mean that the white population of the U.S. is also increasingly dysfunctional. Now, we can argue over the how’s, the why’s and there wherefores’s, but it would indicate that immigration is not an issue, unless we want to bring up the spectre of the inherent social pathologies of the 8th generation Irish which are holding back the advancement of the volk.

  • SKPeterson

    Todd @ 46 – such a definition would also mean that the white population of the U.S. is also increasingly dysfunctional. Now, we can argue over the how’s, the why’s and there wherefores’s, but it would indicate that immigration is not an issue, unless we want to bring up the spectre of the inherent social pathologies of the 8th generation Irish which are holding back the advancement of the volk.

  • Kirk

    @Cinn,

    Speaking of hyperbole, I never suggested showering anyone with gifts from the public treasury. What I do suggest is that we give them a chance to exist in our society. Does that mean access to public services? Absolutely. But it also means that they pay taxes and register for selective service and doing all the things that are expected of you and I. What we “owe,” as a society that promotes freedom, justice and prosperity, is not to deprive immigrants of the benefits of those things because they couldn’t follow our outmoded immigration policy.

  • Kirk

    @Cinn,

    Speaking of hyperbole, I never suggested showering anyone with gifts from the public treasury. What I do suggest is that we give them a chance to exist in our society. Does that mean access to public services? Absolutely. But it also means that they pay taxes and register for selective service and doing all the things that are expected of you and I. What we “owe,” as a society that promotes freedom, justice and prosperity, is not to deprive immigrants of the benefits of those things because they couldn’t follow our outmoded immigration policy.

  • SKPeterson

    “wherefores’s” is my pale attempt at homage to Golem and the upcoming The hobbit. All the racial oppression is really dragging down my typing, man.

  • SKPeterson

    “wherefores’s” is my pale attempt at homage to Golem and the upcoming The hobbit. All the racial oppression is really dragging down my typing, man.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    So you just want total amnesty, right? You really do think that that is the plain and simple answer? I mean, you’ve dressed it up in plenty of partisan rhetoric, but I think I’ve managed to disentangle it.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    So you just want total amnesty, right? You really do think that that is the plain and simple answer? I mean, you’ve dressed it up in plenty of partisan rhetoric, but I think I’ve managed to disentangle it.

  • Kirk

    @ SAL

    “Besides that we’ve had little noticeable effects and no serious allegations have been made of mistreatment of illegal aliens by state or local officials.”

    I’d be interested to know if Hispanics living in Alabama feel the same way. Still, it is worth noting that the Alabama law has been softened, though I understand it was only after certain German automotive executives were detained by the police for not having their papers in order.

  • Kirk

    @ SAL

    “Besides that we’ve had little noticeable effects and no serious allegations have been made of mistreatment of illegal aliens by state or local officials.”

    I’d be interested to know if Hispanics living in Alabama feel the same way. Still, it is worth noting that the Alabama law has been softened, though I understand it was only after certain German automotive executives were detained by the police for not having their papers in order.

  • Kirk

    @Cinn,

    Or a guest worker program, or a simpler path to citizenship.

    Do you believe that our current policy is effective and good?

  • Kirk

    @Cinn,

    Or a guest worker program, or a simpler path to citizenship.

    Do you believe that our current policy is effective and good?

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    What is our immigration policy? Apparently, there’s something about on paper that dictates our policy, but then there’s what we actually do, which isn’t much, and which leaves individual states with the burden of either protecting themselves from or providing for folks who are effectively federal criminals.

    So no, I don’t approve of that.

  • Cincinnatus

    Kirk,

    What is our immigration policy? Apparently, there’s something about on paper that dictates our policy, but then there’s what we actually do, which isn’t much, and which leaves individual states with the burden of either protecting themselves from or providing for folks who are effectively federal criminals.

    So no, I don’t approve of that.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The truth is that you can’t back up anything you say because everything that you say is based on conjecture and is complete BS.”

    Actually that is more true of what you say. I at least dug up the appalling illegitimacy numbers. What have you got to back up what you say? Go ahead, show us some stats. They all back up what I am saying. I know because I started from your position and researched honestly to try to support it and proved it wrong. That is why I am where I am. It brings me no joy whatever, but it is better to face the truth than just keep repeating the pretty lie. Look, if hispanics could do better, they would. They don’t because they can’t. The fact that they want someone to take care of them pretty well shows they know they can’t do better on their own. Immigrants who farmed the prairies were on their own. They didn’t get help. Rather, they helped others. They believed they could do better on their own and they did.

    @46

    Yes, just based on the numbers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “The truth is that you can’t back up anything you say because everything that you say is based on conjecture and is complete BS.”

    Actually that is more true of what you say. I at least dug up the appalling illegitimacy numbers. What have you got to back up what you say? Go ahead, show us some stats. They all back up what I am saying. I know because I started from your position and researched honestly to try to support it and proved it wrong. That is why I am where I am. It brings me no joy whatever, but it is better to face the truth than just keep repeating the pretty lie. Look, if hispanics could do better, they would. They don’t because they can’t. The fact that they want someone to take care of them pretty well shows they know they can’t do better on their own. Immigrants who farmed the prairies were on their own. They didn’t get help. Rather, they helped others. They believed they could do better on their own and they did.

    @46

    Yes, just based on the numbers.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/nyregion/specialized-high-school-admissions-test-is-racially-discriminatory-complaint-says.html

    At issue is the Specialized High School Admissions Test, which is the sole criterion for admission to eight specialized schools that, even in the view of city officials, have been troubled by racial demographics that are out of balance.

    Although 70 percent of the city’s public school students are black and Hispanic, a far smaller percentage have scored high enough to receive offers from one of the schools. According to the complaint, 733 of the 12,525 black and Hispanic students who took the exam were offered seats this year. For whites, 1,253 of the 4,101 test takers were offered seats. Of 7,119 Asian students who took the test, 2,490 were offered seats. At Stuyvesant High School, the most sought-after school, 19 blacks were offered seats in a freshman class of 967.

    “I refuse to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city; it simply cannot be the case,” Mr. Hewitt said. “It is a shameful practice and it must be changed.”

    “refuse to believe”

    That is Kirk’s position in a nutshell.

    The numbers are right there in front of them. Totally fair test. Pencil, paper, and answer grid. No bigotry, just reading, math and science.

    For those who just believe that low performers just can’t can’t can’t be the cause of their own performance, nothing is ever fair enough. Someone else must always be blamed. It’s the test or society or poverty or or or or something, anything but the obvious.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/nyregion/specialized-high-school-admissions-test-is-racially-discriminatory-complaint-says.html

    At issue is the Specialized High School Admissions Test, which is the sole criterion for admission to eight specialized schools that, even in the view of city officials, have been troubled by racial demographics that are out of balance.

    Although 70 percent of the city’s public school students are black and Hispanic, a far smaller percentage have scored high enough to receive offers from one of the schools. According to the complaint, 733 of the 12,525 black and Hispanic students who took the exam were offered seats this year. For whites, 1,253 of the 4,101 test takers were offered seats. Of 7,119 Asian students who took the test, 2,490 were offered seats. At Stuyvesant High School, the most sought-after school, 19 blacks were offered seats in a freshman class of 967.

    “I refuse to believe there are only 19 brilliant African-Americans in the city; it simply cannot be the case,” Mr. Hewitt said. “It is a shameful practice and it must be changed.”

    “refuse to believe”

    That is Kirk’s position in a nutshell.

    The numbers are right there in front of them. Totally fair test. Pencil, paper, and answer grid. No bigotry, just reading, math and science.

    For those who just believe that low performers just can’t can’t can’t be the cause of their own performance, nothing is ever fair enough. Someone else must always be blamed. It’s the test or society or poverty or or or or something, anything but the obvious.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@54), you said your conclusions about whether a group is “high-” or “low-functioning” are “just based on the numbers.”

    And, for the record, you also agreed that these numbers are:

    an agglomeration of illegitimacy rates, public school performance, and “crime” (whatever that might mean to you) among certain demographic groups

    So now comes the fun question. You said that Italians, Irish, Polish, Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, and Germans are all “not low functioning”.

    Just wondering: where did you get the data on those groups? I was not aware that we kept school performance data based on country of origin (no matter how many generations back that might go, or however many countries might be involved). Or that our police forces kept tabs on crime in a similar fashion.

    But, in poking around a bit, I did notice that Native Americans have a significantly higher illegitimacy rate than do Hispanics — behind only blacks. So we should definitely not let any more Native Americans into this country!

    Or anyone from Iceland, Sweden, Norway, France, Denmark, or the UK, where births to unmarried women exceed what is found in the US. Of course, illegitimacy rates have trebled since 1980 among whites in this country, so it’s kind of looking like white people from Northern Europe are the real danger here.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@54), you said your conclusions about whether a group is “high-” or “low-functioning” are “just based on the numbers.”

    And, for the record, you also agreed that these numbers are:

    an agglomeration of illegitimacy rates, public school performance, and “crime” (whatever that might mean to you) among certain demographic groups

    So now comes the fun question. You said that Italians, Irish, Polish, Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, and Germans are all “not low functioning”.

    Just wondering: where did you get the data on those groups? I was not aware that we kept school performance data based on country of origin (no matter how many generations back that might go, or however many countries might be involved). Or that our police forces kept tabs on crime in a similar fashion.

    But, in poking around a bit, I did notice that Native Americans have a significantly higher illegitimacy rate than do Hispanics — behind only blacks. So we should definitely not let any more Native Americans into this country!

    Or anyone from Iceland, Sweden, Norway, France, Denmark, or the UK, where births to unmarried women exceed what is found in the US. Of course, illegitimacy rates have trebled since 1980 among whites in this country, so it’s kind of looking like white people from Northern Europe are the real danger here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Actually the GSS does disaggregate by country of origin, so yes you can see that kind of detail. Some further studies have been done and show that for instance people from Sweden actually do better here than in Sweden. Not surprising. Virtually all groups in the US outperform their coethnics in their country of origin. I am guessing that is a combination of self selection on the part of immigrants as well as the selection criteria enforced by the US gov’t.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Actually the GSS does disaggregate by country of origin, so yes you can see that kind of detail. Some further studies have been done and show that for instance people from Sweden actually do better here than in Sweden. Not surprising. Virtually all groups in the US outperform their coethnics in their country of origin. I am guessing that is a combination of self selection on the part of immigrants as well as the selection criteria enforced by the US gov’t.

  • Cincinnatus

    tODD,

    Maybe I’m being too charitable, but I read sg differently. She isn’t arguing that we should not permit immigration because all immigrants are dysfunctional, but rather that we should be not embracing Hispanic immigrants in particular because they tend, empirically, toward social dysfunction. We don’t need to open the floodgates to more dependents (to be blunt).

    I assume sg would have no problem with allowing more educated Indians, for example, to immigrate–assuming, that is, there is actually “room” for them (i.e., why import more immigrants to work as computer programmers if there are already Americans who can do the job, etc.).

  • Cincinnatus

    tODD,

    Maybe I’m being too charitable, but I read sg differently. She isn’t arguing that we should not permit immigration because all immigrants are dysfunctional, but rather that we should be not embracing Hispanic immigrants in particular because they tend, empirically, toward social dysfunction. We don’t need to open the floodgates to more dependents (to be blunt).

    I assume sg would have no problem with allowing more educated Indians, for example, to immigrate–assuming, that is, there is actually “room” for them (i.e., why import more immigrants to work as computer programmers if there are already Americans who can do the job, etc.).

  • fjsteve

    SKP #24:

    we seriously need to address the long-standing problems of Irish immigration: laziness, drunkenness, moral obtuseness, rampant papist Roman Catholicism, poor educational attainment, and an obvious lack of command of the English language.

    I beg your pardon! This is completely wrong! I am NOT a Papist!!

  • fjsteve

    SKP #24:

    we seriously need to address the long-standing problems of Irish immigration: laziness, drunkenness, moral obtuseness, rampant papist Roman Catholicism, poor educational attainment, and an obvious lack of command of the English language.

    I beg your pardon! This is completely wrong! I am NOT a Papist!!

  • fjsteve

    The truth is this: you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The truth is that you’re generalizing based on your limited view of the world and own sense of superiority.

    Pot, meet kettle.

  • fjsteve

    The truth is this: you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. The truth is that you’re generalizing based on your limited view of the world and own sense of superiority.

    Pot, meet kettle.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    But, in poking around a bit, I did notice that Native Americans have a significantly higher illegitimacy rate than do Hispanics — behind only blacks. So we should definitely not let any more Native Americans into this country!

    Well, hispanics as a group are comprised of any race, so if you wanted to disaggregate, maybe you would find that white hispanics (even I would qualify) have different rates from those who are primarily native American in ancestry.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    But, in poking around a bit, I did notice that Native Americans have a significantly higher illegitimacy rate than do Hispanics — behind only blacks. So we should definitely not let any more Native Americans into this country!

    Well, hispanics as a group are comprised of any race, so if you wanted to disaggregate, maybe you would find that white hispanics (even I would qualify) have different rates from those who are primarily native American in ancestry.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@57), actually, when I go to the GSS and plot country of origin (ETH1) vs. whether someone was accused of a crime or not (LAW4), I find that people from England/Wales, Germany, and Scotland are all more likely to be accused of a crime than those from Mexico.

    Care to tell me what data you’re comparing? And what variable did you use for school performance?

    Cincinnatus (@58), I’m just going off SG’s agreed-to definition for “functioning”. Seems to me that northern-Europeans are obviously “lower-functioning” than Mexicans when it comes to both illegitimacy and marriage rates. If we’re worried about our nation’s social fabric (which we non-Hispanic whites seem to be fouling up on our own, thank you very much), then we should be focused on keeping out the Swedes, the Finns, the Irish, the French, the Norwegians, and so on. We can tackle the Mexican menace after all those.

    So either SG isn’t sincere about her application of this would-be “functioning” metric, or those two variables don’t actually factor into that metric like she said they do.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@57), actually, when I go to the GSS and plot country of origin (ETH1) vs. whether someone was accused of a crime or not (LAW4), I find that people from England/Wales, Germany, and Scotland are all more likely to be accused of a crime than those from Mexico.

    Care to tell me what data you’re comparing? And what variable did you use for school performance?

    Cincinnatus (@58), I’m just going off SG’s agreed-to definition for “functioning”. Seems to me that northern-Europeans are obviously “lower-functioning” than Mexicans when it comes to both illegitimacy and marriage rates. If we’re worried about our nation’s social fabric (which we non-Hispanic whites seem to be fouling up on our own, thank you very much), then we should be focused on keeping out the Swedes, the Finns, the Irish, the French, the Norwegians, and so on. We can tackle the Mexican menace after all those.

    So either SG isn’t sincere about her application of this would-be “functioning” metric, or those two variables don’t actually factor into that metric like she said they do.

  • Cincinnatus

    tODD,

    Fair point. I propose, then, a motion that we include another variable in our analysis: that of socioeconomic class. While I emphatically do not endorse the notion that poverty causes crime and dysfunction, they are correlated. As such, perhaps we could argue that lower-class Hispanic immigrants (i.e., almost all of them) are socially dysfunctional. (Therefore, who needs ‘em.)

    Anyone care to second my motion? SG?

  • Cincinnatus

    tODD,

    Fair point. I propose, then, a motion that we include another variable in our analysis: that of socioeconomic class. While I emphatically do not endorse the notion that poverty causes crime and dysfunction, they are correlated. As such, perhaps we could argue that lower-class Hispanic immigrants (i.e., almost all of them) are socially dysfunctional. (Therefore, who needs ‘em.)

    Anyone care to second my motion? SG?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@57):

    Virtually all groups in the US outperform their coethnics in their country of origin. I am guessing that is a combination of self selection on the part of immigrants as well as the selection criteria enforced by the US gov’t.

    Have you talked to SG (@9)?

    Gosh, makes you wonder why they don’t go running home to their utopian homelands where they were treated so wonderfully and everything is just rainbows and happiness. Oh wait, their homelands were wrecked by people just like themselves…

    Is it just a coincidence that you approvingly noted how Swedes in America do better than Swedes in Sweden, but when the conversation was about Hispanic people, you somehow failed to consider that immigrants might be different than the general population they came from?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SG (@57):

    Virtually all groups in the US outperform their coethnics in their country of origin. I am guessing that is a combination of self selection on the part of immigrants as well as the selection criteria enforced by the US gov’t.

    Have you talked to SG (@9)?

    Gosh, makes you wonder why they don’t go running home to their utopian homelands where they were treated so wonderfully and everything is just rainbows and happiness. Oh wait, their homelands were wrecked by people just like themselves…

    Is it just a coincidence that you approvingly noted how Swedes in America do better than Swedes in Sweden, but when the conversation was about Hispanic people, you somehow failed to consider that immigrants might be different than the general population they came from?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, and sorry, Cincinnatus (@63), but SG (@55) has already vetoed your friendly amendment:

    For those who just believe that low performers just can’t can’t can’t be the cause of their own performance, nothing is ever fair enough. Someone else must always be blamed. It’s the test or society or poverty or or or or something, anything but the obvious.

    If you’ve stuck around here long enough, you know what SG’s getting at. Come on.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Oh, and sorry, Cincinnatus (@63), but SG (@55) has already vetoed your friendly amendment:

    For those who just believe that low performers just can’t can’t can’t be the cause of their own performance, nothing is ever fair enough. Someone else must always be blamed. It’s the test or society or poverty or or or or something, anything but the obvious.

    If you’ve stuck around here long enough, you know what SG’s getting at. Come on.

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Realistically, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US, are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety beyond what they could find in their home countries. Their only crime is not working through legal systems to immigrate to the US.

    And, realistically, the vast majority of American citizens and other legal residents are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety. The question is whether the host country can sustain such an influx of new residents without making it more difficult for those already here legally to seek the same things. What about jobs for citizens in construction, landscaping, hotels, and restaurants? Are you seriously going to tell me that none of the millions of unemployed would look to those sectors for employment if they were available?

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Realistically, the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the US, are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety beyond what they could find in their home countries. Their only crime is not working through legal systems to immigrate to the US.

    And, realistically, the vast majority of American citizens and other legal residents are simply seeking economic opportunity and social safety. The question is whether the host country can sustain such an influx of new residents without making it more difficult for those already here legally to seek the same things. What about jobs for citizens in construction, landscaping, hotels, and restaurants? Are you seriously going to tell me that none of the millions of unemployed would look to those sectors for employment if they were available?

  • Kirk

    @sg

    My question is: do I really want to argue racial typology with you or should I just refer you back to all scholarly material on the subject written since 1853?

  • Kirk

    @sg

    My question is: do I really want to argue racial typology with you or should I just refer you back to all scholarly material on the subject written since 1853?

  • Kirk

    @fjsteve

    Yes. I would tell you that. Because economies aren’t static. If we have influx of immigrants, new economies are created because immigrants buy stuff. And labor markets among Americans have shifted such that many don’t take low skill – low wage jobs like you mention. They just don’t. You can see this from the aforementioned Alabama immigration law. To an extent, illegals in Alabama did self-deport to surrounding states, leaving a dearth of low-skill labor that was no filled by American citizens. This left crops rotting in the fields, vacancies on processing lines, not to mention the lack of demand for goods and services that the immigrants themselves generated.

    http://cber.cba.ua.edu/New%20AL%20Immigration%20Law%20-%20Costs%20and%20Benefits.pdf

    From what I’ve read, most studies indicate that illegal immigration has thus far been an economic boon to the US.

  • Kirk

    @fjsteve

    Yes. I would tell you that. Because economies aren’t static. If we have influx of immigrants, new economies are created because immigrants buy stuff. And labor markets among Americans have shifted such that many don’t take low skill – low wage jobs like you mention. They just don’t. You can see this from the aforementioned Alabama immigration law. To an extent, illegals in Alabama did self-deport to surrounding states, leaving a dearth of low-skill labor that was no filled by American citizens. This left crops rotting in the fields, vacancies on processing lines, not to mention the lack of demand for goods and services that the immigrants themselves generated.

    http://cber.cba.ua.edu/New%20AL%20Immigration%20Law%20-%20Costs%20and%20Benefits.pdf

    From what I’ve read, most studies indicate that illegal immigration has thus far been an economic boon to the US.

  • Grace

    I am not in favor of illegals being allowed to get a free ride, nor do I believe they have some special right to stay in the U.S., taking advantage of health care, educations, etc.

    HOWEVER,

    I DO FIND it extremely OFFENSIVE to label them as “low functioning” or, “Low performing” as though they are retarded or are limited in some way as to mental ability, such as autism, aspergers, ADS, and a host of other problems – labeling an entire ethnic group.

    Promoting a SUPERIOR RACE attitude, is nasty – its born of a smug mind set, which is completely false. What would cause an individual to label another ethnic group, with a broad brush with dripping SUPERIOR, resentment ?

  • Grace

    I am not in favor of illegals being allowed to get a free ride, nor do I believe they have some special right to stay in the U.S., taking advantage of health care, educations, etc.

    HOWEVER,

    I DO FIND it extremely OFFENSIVE to label them as “low functioning” or, “Low performing” as though they are retarded or are limited in some way as to mental ability, such as autism, aspergers, ADS, and a host of other problems – labeling an entire ethnic group.

    Promoting a SUPERIOR RACE attitude, is nasty – its born of a smug mind set, which is completely false. What would cause an individual to label another ethnic group, with a broad brush with dripping SUPERIOR, resentment ?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And here I agree with Grace (and retract previous accusations/indictments where this topic is concerned). Thank you, Grace.

    And I also agree with Todd, Kirk etc…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And here I agree with Grace (and retract previous accusations/indictments where this topic is concerned). Thank you, Grace.

    And I also agree with Todd, Kirk etc…..

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Why is it a boon? In part it is because of the abundance of cheap labor, yes? If so, is it right to rely on people working in substandard conditions for substandard wages just because of their immigration status? And, if it isn’t, do we have the same type of boon when employers are forced to hire undocumented immigrants are the same wages as their documented counterparts?

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Why is it a boon? In part it is because of the abundance of cheap labor, yes? If so, is it right to rely on people working in substandard conditions for substandard wages just because of their immigration status? And, if it isn’t, do we have the same type of boon when employers are forced to hire undocumented immigrants are the same wages as their documented counterparts?

  • Grace

    Thank you KK, I appreciate your kind words.

    To add something to what I posted earlier:

    Let us remember, the LORD created each one of us in HIS image. Some are gifted in unusual ways, yet others have compassion and empathy for those who need a helping hand, and would do whatever they could to help

    Our country is painted with every ethnic group, with a host of talents – When it comes to “high or low performing or functioning” peoples, let’s not forget those who come to this country (legal) with arrogant ambitions, not giving a hoot how they treat others, not mixing with those who were born here, who’s family members have been in the military, making it possible for their being able to immigrate to the United States, from a variety of countries – mostly Asian, and Middle East.

    My husband and I live in a community, which has a mixture of many different ethnic groups, – which find it impossible to befriend. There attitude is “we came here to take advantage of career positions, better universities and schools, etc” but never wanting to mix with their neighbors – it’s disgusting. They envy anyone who has more – finding it difficult to follow community rules after moving in.

    The message we heard yesterday, and the interview we watched last night with Ken and Joni Eareckson Tada as a special on FOX, has had a profound effect on myself and my husband.

  • Grace

    Thank you KK, I appreciate your kind words.

    To add something to what I posted earlier:

    Let us remember, the LORD created each one of us in HIS image. Some are gifted in unusual ways, yet others have compassion and empathy for those who need a helping hand, and would do whatever they could to help

    Our country is painted with every ethnic group, with a host of talents – When it comes to “high or low performing or functioning” peoples, let’s not forget those who come to this country (legal) with arrogant ambitions, not giving a hoot how they treat others, not mixing with those who were born here, who’s family members have been in the military, making it possible for their being able to immigrate to the United States, from a variety of countries – mostly Asian, and Middle East.

    My husband and I live in a community, which has a mixture of many different ethnic groups, – which find it impossible to befriend. There attitude is “we came here to take advantage of career positions, better universities and schools, etc” but never wanting to mix with their neighbors – it’s disgusting. They envy anyone who has more – finding it difficult to follow community rules after moving in.

    The message we heard yesterday, and the interview we watched last night with Ken and Joni Eareckson Tada as a special on FOX, has had a profound effect on myself and my husband.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Is it just a coincidence that you approvingly noted how Swedes in America do better than Swedes in Sweden, but when the conversation was about Hispanic people, you somehow failed to consider that immigrants might be different than the general population they came from?

    Swedes and hispanics do better here. Legal immigrants do better than illegal. Yes, there are differences. I noted that. But this isn’t subjective surmise because there are mountains of data documenting the actual performance. I am not alleging what could be. I am stating what is. If we are going to import ever more low performing people, we need to face up to what that means rather than live in some fantasy that people who below average and want the established population to subsidize them are going to turn into independent self reliant types. Nothing indicates that is the case. Hispanics are in no way moving in that direction.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Is it just a coincidence that you approvingly noted how Swedes in America do better than Swedes in Sweden, but when the conversation was about Hispanic people, you somehow failed to consider that immigrants might be different than the general population they came from?

    Swedes and hispanics do better here. Legal immigrants do better than illegal. Yes, there are differences. I noted that. But this isn’t subjective surmise because there are mountains of data documenting the actual performance. I am not alleging what could be. I am stating what is. If we are going to import ever more low performing people, we need to face up to what that means rather than live in some fantasy that people who below average and want the established population to subsidize them are going to turn into independent self reliant types. Nothing indicates that is the case. Hispanics are in no way moving in that direction.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t see many here grappling with the facts of low performance. I see folks wanting to be sure that they are charitable. Fine. You are all good people. Now, what about the real world impact of an ever increasing proportion of the population becoming more and more dependent on an ever shrinking group that is supposed to make up the difference? Well? Ideas? I know it is a lot easier to get sidetracked into impugning the motives of skeptics, but conflicts aren’t resolved by just shaming people into silence. Look, I posted that article about the schools in New York City. Asians are beating whites, outnumbering whites by about 2:1. So the tests aren’t racist. Some think that Asians will eventually tire of supporting the dependent class and move right. Maybe.

    As for European illegitimacy, ooh whee, it is bad. Well it is on paper. I think we all know that it is likely due to secularization, but from what I have read, many children are still living with their biological parents albeit parents who are cohabiting rather than married. Also, PISA test scores show that the students are still doing well. And crime among natives is still low. Non European immigrants commit more crime. So, not all positive social indicators are low or falling.

    @62 EDUC is the variable for educational attainment.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I don’t see many here grappling with the facts of low performance. I see folks wanting to be sure that they are charitable. Fine. You are all good people. Now, what about the real world impact of an ever increasing proportion of the population becoming more and more dependent on an ever shrinking group that is supposed to make up the difference? Well? Ideas? I know it is a lot easier to get sidetracked into impugning the motives of skeptics, but conflicts aren’t resolved by just shaming people into silence. Look, I posted that article about the schools in New York City. Asians are beating whites, outnumbering whites by about 2:1. So the tests aren’t racist. Some think that Asians will eventually tire of supporting the dependent class and move right. Maybe.

    As for European illegitimacy, ooh whee, it is bad. Well it is on paper. I think we all know that it is likely due to secularization, but from what I have read, many children are still living with their biological parents albeit parents who are cohabiting rather than married. Also, PISA test scores show that the students are still doing well. And crime among natives is still low. Non European immigrants commit more crime. So, not all positive social indicators are low or falling.

    @62 EDUC is the variable for educational attainment.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    label them as “low functioning” or, “Low performing” as though they are retarded or are limited in some way as to mental ability,

    Fine, someone else can pick a palatable euphemism.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    label them as “low functioning” or, “Low performing” as though they are retarded or are limited in some way as to mental ability,

    Fine, someone else can pick a palatable euphemism.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @68 More consumers = economic growth in a consumer based economy. Those profits go to the top and the costs are socialized to everyone below that. Without so much social spending, Americans would take those jobs because they would have to. The labor participation rate is very low.

    http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/09/male-labor-participation-rate-in-the-us-hits-the-lowest-level-on-record.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @68 More consumers = economic growth in a consumer based economy. Those profits go to the top and the costs are socialized to everyone below that. Without so much social spending, Americans would take those jobs because they would have to. The labor participation rate is very low.

    http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/09/male-labor-participation-rate-in-the-us-hits-the-lowest-level-on-record.html

  • Grace

    sg @73 “Nothing indicates that is the case. Hispanics are in no way moving in that direction.”

    What loving direction are you “moving in” – or is it that your ‘kindness letter, was never sent, BECAUSE it was never written?

    You certainly don’t represent the vast majority of Americans . I know, because my career has taken me within the circles of some of the most brilliant. The majority are humble men and women, who have empathy and kindness for everyone.

    Jesus Christ didn’t measure a mans worth by his IQ, HE made it clear we were to love one anther.

    The question has been asked before to YOU, but I don’t believe you’ve ever answered it:

    What career did you have before you, married?

  • Grace

    sg @73 “Nothing indicates that is the case. Hispanics are in no way moving in that direction.”

    What loving direction are you “moving in” – or is it that your ‘kindness letter, was never sent, BECAUSE it was never written?

    You certainly don’t represent the vast majority of Americans . I know, because my career has taken me within the circles of some of the most brilliant. The majority are humble men and women, who have empathy and kindness for everyone.

    Jesus Christ didn’t measure a mans worth by his IQ, HE made it clear we were to love one anther.

    The question has been asked before to YOU, but I don’t believe you’ve ever answered it:

    What career did you have before you, married?

  • Joe

    Here is the reality of our immigration “problem” — as long as it is better to live here as an illegal alien than it is to live in Mexico (or elsewhere); people will find a way in. It is the ultimate market at work. The only thing that will stop the flow (assuming you want to stop it) is to change the incentives. Deportation just creates a circular flow, imprisonment is simply not practical, and a wall is just an obstacle that will be breached.

    The focus should be on the job supply not the immigrants. Fine a company $10,000 per day for each illegal immigrant they hire and you will see a change in the incentives and people will look to go elsewhere to better their lives.

  • Joe

    Here is the reality of our immigration “problem” — as long as it is better to live here as an illegal alien than it is to live in Mexico (or elsewhere); people will find a way in. It is the ultimate market at work. The only thing that will stop the flow (assuming you want to stop it) is to change the incentives. Deportation just creates a circular flow, imprisonment is simply not practical, and a wall is just an obstacle that will be breached.

    The focus should be on the job supply not the immigrants. Fine a company $10,000 per day for each illegal immigrant they hire and you will see a change in the incentives and people will look to go elsewhere to better their lives.

  • Joe

    As for my thoughts? I’d rather we deport a lazy American for each industrious immigrant that manages to sneak into this country in order to find work.

  • Joe

    As for my thoughts? I’d rather we deport a lazy American for each industrious immigrant that manages to sneak into this country in order to find work.

  • trotk

    sg, after 5 years or so of reading your usage of statistics, I can tell you with confidence that there are two mistakes you frequently make which radically color your view. The first is that you regularly equate correlation and causation (that isn’t really what you are doing here). The other is that you almost always ignore mountains of other salient data in your interpretation, which is exactly what you are doing here.

    There are simply other factors involved, and many of those are actually outside the control of the people group you are discussing at any given moment.

  • trotk

    sg, after 5 years or so of reading your usage of statistics, I can tell you with confidence that there are two mistakes you frequently make which radically color your view. The first is that you regularly equate correlation and causation (that isn’t really what you are doing here). The other is that you almost always ignore mountains of other salient data in your interpretation, which is exactly what you are doing here.

    There are simply other factors involved, and many of those are actually outside the control of the people group you are discussing at any given moment.

  • fjsteve

    Joe, the only difference between the lazy American and the industrious immigrant is a generation of prosperity. The Chinese may own us in debt but we gave them Big Macs. In a few years, there will be a boom fueled by the Mexican stretchy-pants industry and all of our problems will be solved.

  • fjsteve

    Joe, the only difference between the lazy American and the industrious immigrant is a generation of prosperity. The Chinese may own us in debt but we gave them Big Macs. In a few years, there will be a boom fueled by the Mexican stretchy-pants industry and all of our problems will be solved.

  • JunkerGeorg

    “Most hispanics are conservative Catholics.”

    Really? How many “conservative Catholics” in general are even left today, in terms of laity of any ethnic background?

  • JunkerGeorg

    “Most hispanics are conservative Catholics.”

    Really? How many “conservative Catholics” in general are even left today, in terms of laity of any ethnic background?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The first is that you regularly equate correlation and causation

    Nope. I merely state that correlation equals correlation.

    This is known as the identity property.

    The other is that you almost always ignore mountains of other salient data

    Please link to the data.

    I will read it.

    The problem here is that ideology has so blinded people that they can’t even face that correlation does imply correlation! The other one is the claim of other data that you have complete confidence in but can never seem to find or link to.

    Do you think that is a strong argument?

    Fun discussion of correlation:

    http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/archive/index.php/t-238801.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    The first is that you regularly equate correlation and causation

    Nope. I merely state that correlation equals correlation.

    This is known as the identity property.

    The other is that you almost always ignore mountains of other salient data

    Please link to the data.

    I will read it.

    The problem here is that ideology has so blinded people that they can’t even face that correlation does imply correlation! The other one is the claim of other data that you have complete confidence in but can never seem to find or link to.

    Do you think that is a strong argument?

    Fun discussion of correlation:

    http://www.actuarialoutpost.com/actuarial_discussion_forum/archive/index.php/t-238801.html

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    trotk,

    You do know that the assertion that poverty causes crime and low educational attainment is not supported by anything more than assuming that correlation implies causation.

    I would say that crime and low educational attainment cause poverty, or that another factor causes them all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    trotk,

    You do know that the assertion that poverty causes crime and low educational attainment is not supported by anything more than assuming that correlation implies causation.

    I would say that crime and low educational attainment cause poverty, or that another factor causes them all.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    As for my thoughts? I’d rather we deport a lazy American for each industrious immigrant that manages to sneak into this country in order to find work.

    It is harder to be lazy when there is no welfare state. As long as the government will give you a standard of living equal to or better than an employer will, why work?

    Amnesty would effectively eliminate the incentives to work because illegals are the ones employers seek because they can be more easily intimidated and abused.

    The focus should be on the job supply not the immigrants. Fine a company $10,000 per day for each illegal immigrant they hire and you will see a change in the incentives and people will look to go elsewhere to better their lives.

    Yup. In this era of expanding corruption, we see ever more selective enforcement.

    @77 LOL ad hominem strikes again.

    Here you go Grace. I am a poor miserable sinner. Anything you care to accuse me of, I confess to worse.

    Now, that still doesn’t change the documented performance of hispanics.
    They aren’t conservative. They aren’t making the gains in education over previous generations like the immigrant groups that SKP noted.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    As for my thoughts? I’d rather we deport a lazy American for each industrious immigrant that manages to sneak into this country in order to find work.

    It is harder to be lazy when there is no welfare state. As long as the government will give you a standard of living equal to or better than an employer will, why work?

    Amnesty would effectively eliminate the incentives to work because illegals are the ones employers seek because they can be more easily intimidated and abused.

    The focus should be on the job supply not the immigrants. Fine a company $10,000 per day for each illegal immigrant they hire and you will see a change in the incentives and people will look to go elsewhere to better their lives.

    Yup. In this era of expanding corruption, we see ever more selective enforcement.

    @77 LOL ad hominem strikes again.

    Here you go Grace. I am a poor miserable sinner. Anything you care to accuse me of, I confess to worse.

    Now, that still doesn’t change the documented performance of hispanics.
    They aren’t conservative. They aren’t making the gains in education over previous generations like the immigrant groups that SKP noted.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is the reality of our immigration “problem” — as long as it is better to live here as an illegal alien than it is to live in Mexico (or elsewhere); people will find a way in.

    Yes, but why is it better here? What makes it better here?

    That is the condition everybody seems to ignore.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is the reality of our immigration “problem” — as long as it is better to live here as an illegal alien than it is to live in Mexico (or elsewhere); people will find a way in.

    Yes, but why is it better here? What makes it better here?

    That is the condition everybody seems to ignore.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    As such, perhaps we could argue that lower-class Hispanic immigrants (i.e., almost all of them) are socially dysfunctional.

    Well controlling for say, educational attainment, income, marital status etc, you are going to find that the groups look more similar, because they are. What you will find is a different proportion of the total of each group that fits the definition. So, yes there are Asians who are low income, with illegitimate kids and dropped out of high school and been in trouble with the law, but they are a tiny fraction rather than the general case. When you start having huge fractions of a group that fit that description, now you are not talking an upper income married engineer with a traffic ticket. It is the distribution. This is what I find about many of tODD’s statements. He seems to use the math proof kind of evidence where only one case is needed to prove it false rather that the proportional kind of evidence used for making generalizations about conditions where you can’t make absolute assertions. In such situations you are just looking for a trend. Now the trend can be thwarted by selection. So, if we deport illegals and increase the number of people we allow in by some rational criteria, we will get better immigrants, but too bad for exploitive employers who will have to pay these legal resident workers decent wages.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    As such, perhaps we could argue that lower-class Hispanic immigrants (i.e., almost all of them) are socially dysfunctional.

    Well controlling for say, educational attainment, income, marital status etc, you are going to find that the groups look more similar, because they are. What you will find is a different proportion of the total of each group that fits the definition. So, yes there are Asians who are low income, with illegitimate kids and dropped out of high school and been in trouble with the law, but they are a tiny fraction rather than the general case. When you start having huge fractions of a group that fit that description, now you are not talking an upper income married engineer with a traffic ticket. It is the distribution. This is what I find about many of tODD’s statements. He seems to use the math proof kind of evidence where only one case is needed to prove it false rather that the proportional kind of evidence used for making generalizations about conditions where you can’t make absolute assertions. In such situations you are just looking for a trend. Now the trend can be thwarted by selection. So, if we deport illegals and increase the number of people we allow in by some rational criteria, we will get better immigrants, but too bad for exploitive employers who will have to pay these legal resident workers decent wages.

  • Grace

    sg, you are no better than anyone else, from any race of people. You are not from a SUPERIOR RACE of PEOPLE.

    Constantly trying to justify IQ against others verges on “monomania” which is defined as follows:

    1. Pathological obsession with one idea or subject.
    2. Intent concentration on or exaggerated enthusiasm for a single subject or idea.

    Your constant “exaggerated enthusiasm” to down grade an entire ethnic group is disgusting. It’s no different than the hatred that was born in the south, and defeated by the civil war, but yet still lingers today. It’s un-Godly – there is good and bad in every ethnic group. Your “number crunching” is obsessive, especially when you can’t see the hatred that has spurned wars, pain and devastation, last century. There is no SUPERIOR RACE.

    When hatred and superiority abound, sin reigns as its king – it eats like a canker and devours the soul.

  • Grace

    sg, you are no better than anyone else, from any race of people. You are not from a SUPERIOR RACE of PEOPLE.

    Constantly trying to justify IQ against others verges on “monomania” which is defined as follows:

    1. Pathological obsession with one idea or subject.
    2. Intent concentration on or exaggerated enthusiasm for a single subject or idea.

    Your constant “exaggerated enthusiasm” to down grade an entire ethnic group is disgusting. It’s no different than the hatred that was born in the south, and defeated by the civil war, but yet still lingers today. It’s un-Godly – there is good and bad in every ethnic group. Your “number crunching” is obsessive, especially when you can’t see the hatred that has spurned wars, pain and devastation, last century. There is no SUPERIOR RACE.

    When hatred and superiority abound, sin reigns as its king – it eats like a canker and devours the soul.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @88

    Still unable to engage the problem at hand?

    Like, if you make me chief of sinners, then… what? Hispanics as a group will do better on average?

    Like the answer to people who pose difficult questions/problems is just to tell them they are bad? And that solves what?

    So what if I am bad bad bad?

    That is irrelevant.

    Here is video on ad hominem arguments:

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    @88

    Still unable to engage the problem at hand?

    Like, if you make me chief of sinners, then… what? Hispanics as a group will do better on average?

    Like the answer to people who pose difficult questions/problems is just to tell them they are bad? And that solves what?

    So what if I am bad bad bad?

    That is irrelevant.

    Here is video on ad hominem arguments:

  • Grace

    sg,

    All the YOUTUBE will not change how you view the Hispanic community.

    You still haven’t ansered a question I posed to you @77

    “What career did you have before you, married?”

    I ask this question because you pretend to superiorize your intellect, taking pot shots at those who God has made in HIS image -

  • Grace

    sg,

    All the YOUTUBE will not change how you view the Hispanic community.

    You still haven’t ansered a question I posed to you @77

    “What career did you have before you, married?”

    I ask this question because you pretend to superiorize your intellect, taking pot shots at those who God has made in HIS image -

  • Grace

    As for ad hominem, sg – I’m not appealing to your emotions, I’m reading your lop sided view, as you try and use your intellect to down grade others. It’s all a charade!

  • Grace

    As for ad hominem, sg – I’m not appealing to your emotions, I’m reading your lop sided view, as you try and use your intellect to down grade others. It’s all a charade!

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So, I guess by your logic I must worship Asians as the superior race because they consistently rack up better stats than whites. Oh, wait Jews beat Asians on some measures of top achievement. Now what I am I going to do?

    Anyway, the fact that you keep attacking me rather than just calmly explain why you disagree, pretty much shows you don’t have any evidence that what I am saying is not true.

    Your whole point is that I am a bad person. Okay, I concede.

    Now that we have established by agreement that you are good and I am bad, how about the discussion at hand?

    Explain how hispanics are conservative or are going to push the USA into prosperity etc. How exactly are these people, who they really are, not some imagined vision of who they could be, how are they going to assimilate and function rather than continue in dependency and disproportionally dysfunctional underclass?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    So, I guess by your logic I must worship Asians as the superior race because they consistently rack up better stats than whites. Oh, wait Jews beat Asians on some measures of top achievement. Now what I am I going to do?

    Anyway, the fact that you keep attacking me rather than just calmly explain why you disagree, pretty much shows you don’t have any evidence that what I am saying is not true.

    Your whole point is that I am a bad person. Okay, I concede.

    Now that we have established by agreement that you are good and I am bad, how about the discussion at hand?

    Explain how hispanics are conservative or are going to push the USA into prosperity etc. How exactly are these people, who they really are, not some imagined vision of who they could be, how are they going to assimilate and function rather than continue in dependency and disproportionally dysfunctional underclass?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is the deal, stuff like abortion should be opposed on moral grounds because it is wrong even though people like Justice Ginsburg and Freakonomics writer Steve Levitt say that among those children killed are a lot of people we don’t want anyway:

    However, immigration is not the same moral imperative that abortion/murder is. If people don’t come to the USA, we are in no way injuring them. Therefore, if their presence here causes problems, then we are free to say they can’t come unless they fill out our mountain of paperwork and follow our rules. Hispanics as a group have serious social problems and are disproportionally dependent and there is no evidence that will change. So, we should make them follow the immigration rules and we will only allow in those we pick. That is just reasonable rule of law. The assertion that they have problems is not imagined. It is documented.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Here is the deal, stuff like abortion should be opposed on moral grounds because it is wrong even though people like Justice Ginsburg and Freakonomics writer Steve Levitt say that among those children killed are a lot of people we don’t want anyway:

    However, immigration is not the same moral imperative that abortion/murder is. If people don’t come to the USA, we are in no way injuring them. Therefore, if their presence here causes problems, then we are free to say they can’t come unless they fill out our mountain of paperwork and follow our rules. Hispanics as a group have serious social problems and are disproportionally dependent and there is no evidence that will change. So, we should make them follow the immigration rules and we will only allow in those we pick. That is just reasonable rule of law. The assertion that they have problems is not imagined. It is documented.

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Why is it a boon? In part it is because of the abundance of cheap labor, yes? If so, is it right to rely on people working in substandard conditions for substandard wages just because of their immigration status? And, if it isn’t, do we have the same type of boon when employers are forced to hire undocumented immigrants are the same wages as their documented counterparts?

  • fjsteve

    Kirk,

    Why is it a boon? In part it is because of the abundance of cheap labor, yes? If so, is it right to rely on people working in substandard conditions for substandard wages just because of their immigration status? And, if it isn’t, do we have the same type of boon when employers are forced to hire undocumented immigrants are the same wages as their documented counterparts?

  • Grace

    sg @ 92 and 93

    “So, I guess by your logic I must worship Asians as the superior race because they consistently rack up better stats than whites. Oh, wait Jews beat Asians on some measures of top achievement. Now what I am I going to do?”

    Both of your lasts posts are a disgrace, as the paragraph above illustrates.

    You still haven’t ansered a question I posed to you @77, 90 and now this post:


    “What career did you have before you, married?”

    I ask this question because you pretend to superiorize your intellect, taking pot shots at those who God has made in HIS image”

  • Grace

    sg @ 92 and 93

    “So, I guess by your logic I must worship Asians as the superior race because they consistently rack up better stats than whites. Oh, wait Jews beat Asians on some measures of top achievement. Now what I am I going to do?”

    Both of your lasts posts are a disgrace, as the paragraph above illustrates.

    You still haven’t ansered a question I posed to you @77, 90 and now this post:


    “What career did you have before you, married?”

    I ask this question because you pretend to superiorize your intellect, taking pot shots at those who God has made in HIS image”

  • kerner

    Wow! Spend a couple of days out of town, and look what I missed.

    @92″Explain how hispanics are conservative or are going to push the USA into prosperity etc.”

    I don’t know about being conservative, but between 1994-2008 they helped push the USA into one of the longest periods of economic expansion that it has ever experienced. And the end of that economic expansion was not caused by the hispanics, it was caused by the so called geniuses runni ng our government and fincial sysrem that caused the current crash.

    As Joe said, immigration is the product of markert forces.

    Poverty there +Economic boom here = immigration. Period, the end. What brought them here was pure supply and demand. And now they are going back because the economy is so bad. You should be glad Obama won. Only an economy like this one will syop immigrants from coming (that’s what happened in the 1930s also)

    And supply and demand is not some corrupt construct that only benefits “the top”. It benefits everybody. Every time you bought affordable food or stayed at a clean affordable hotel or ate at an affordable restaurant, or used any one of the many goods and services that hispanics help produce better and cheaper than their competition, you got richer, because you got more for less.

    I agree that we should want productive people here, but I fail to see how unskilled, or semi skilled labor is unproductive. It isn’t. It’s a competitive market like any other, and there is no reason to drive underground people who want to work hard and compete in it.

    @35 “Yes, because no immigrant group from a dysfunctional nation has ever come to America and been successful. Never. Not the Italians, not the Irish, not the Poles, or the Russians. Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Germans,

    Uh, what?! Those are not low functioning. Fail.”

    Fail yourself. All of those were low functioning at the time the immigrants left. Russia, Vietnam, India and arguably even China still are.

    Finally, when the question of amnesty comes up, the solution is to allow it for all those who will do without welfare and not commit crimes and perhaps meet other conditions for an extended period of time establishing that they, as individuals, are not dysfunctional. This is in reality the only rational approach. Not trying to predict individual outcomes from mountains of selectively chosen data, which only leads to endless arguing such as we are engaging now.

  • kerner

    Wow! Spend a couple of days out of town, and look what I missed.

    @92″Explain how hispanics are conservative or are going to push the USA into prosperity etc.”

    I don’t know about being conservative, but between 1994-2008 they helped push the USA into one of the longest periods of economic expansion that it has ever experienced. And the end of that economic expansion was not caused by the hispanics, it was caused by the so called geniuses runni ng our government and fincial sysrem that caused the current crash.

    As Joe said, immigration is the product of markert forces.

    Poverty there +Economic boom here = immigration. Period, the end. What brought them here was pure supply and demand. And now they are going back because the economy is so bad. You should be glad Obama won. Only an economy like this one will syop immigrants from coming (that’s what happened in the 1930s also)

    And supply and demand is not some corrupt construct that only benefits “the top”. It benefits everybody. Every time you bought affordable food or stayed at a clean affordable hotel or ate at an affordable restaurant, or used any one of the many goods and services that hispanics help produce better and cheaper than their competition, you got richer, because you got more for less.

    I agree that we should want productive people here, but I fail to see how unskilled, or semi skilled labor is unproductive. It isn’t. It’s a competitive market like any other, and there is no reason to drive underground people who want to work hard and compete in it.

    @35 “Yes, because no immigrant group from a dysfunctional nation has ever come to America and been successful. Never. Not the Italians, not the Irish, not the Poles, or the Russians. Not the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indians, Germans,

    Uh, what?! Those are not low functioning. Fail.”

    Fail yourself. All of those were low functioning at the time the immigrants left. Russia, Vietnam, India and arguably even China still are.

    Finally, when the question of amnesty comes up, the solution is to allow it for all those who will do without welfare and not commit crimes and perhaps meet other conditions for an extended period of time establishing that they, as individuals, are not dysfunctional. This is in reality the only rational approach. Not trying to predict individual outcomes from mountains of selectively chosen data, which only leads to endless arguing such as we are engaging now.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    What brought them here was pure supply and demand.

    Supply of what and demand for what?

    I agree that we should want productive people here, but I fail to see how unskilled, or semi skilled labor is unproductive.

    An oversupply drives down wages for the workers and up profits for employers, but who cares about American workers. American workers are just there to pay taxes to fund benefits for illegal aliens who are here for the profits of unscrupulous employers.

    Did you see what I posted on the male labor participation rate?

    25% are not working. Got that? We have people to do work.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    What brought them here was pure supply and demand.

    Supply of what and demand for what?

    I agree that we should want productive people here, but I fail to see how unskilled, or semi skilled labor is unproductive.

    An oversupply drives down wages for the workers and up profits for employers, but who cares about American workers. American workers are just there to pay taxes to fund benefits for illegal aliens who are here for the profits of unscrupulous employers.

    Did you see what I posted on the male labor participation rate?

    25% are not working. Got that? We have people to do work.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    And supply and demand is not some corrupt construct that only benefits “the top”. It benefits everybody. Every time you bought affordable food or stayed at a clean affordable hotel or ate at an affordable restaurant, or used any one of the many goods and services that hispanics help produce better and cheaper than their competition, you got richer, because you got more for less.

    Nonsense. We borrowed trillions of $$ to pay for all the services that immigrants get from the “safety net” that is supposed to be for citizens in hardships.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    And supply and demand is not some corrupt construct that only benefits “the top”. It benefits everybody. Every time you bought affordable food or stayed at a clean affordable hotel or ate at an affordable restaurant, or used any one of the many goods and services that hispanics help produce better and cheaper than their competition, you got richer, because you got more for less.

    Nonsense. We borrowed trillions of $$ to pay for all the services that immigrants get from the “safety net” that is supposed to be for citizens in hardships.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Finally, when the question of amnesty comes up, the solution is to allow it for all those who will do without welfare and not commit crimes and perhaps meet other conditions for an extended period of time establishing that they, as individuals, are not dysfunctional.

    O wehe! And what is it going to cost to pay the federal bureaucrats to process all those applications?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Finally, when the question of amnesty comes up, the solution is to allow it for all those who will do without welfare and not commit crimes and perhaps meet other conditions for an extended period of time establishing that they, as individuals, are not dysfunctional.

    O wehe! And what is it going to cost to pay the federal bureaucrats to process all those applications?

  • Grace

    sg

    “Low functioning” ? – does that apply to most groups, except the one you belong to, or wish your name was written on the their university list, or perhaps their graduates ?

  • Grace

    sg

    “Low functioning” ? – does that apply to most groups, except the one you belong to, or wish your name was written on the their university list, or perhaps their graduates ?

  • Grace

    Kerner @96

    Glad your back! ;)

  • Grace

    Kerner @96

    Glad your back! ;)

  • kerner

    “O wehe! And what is it going to cost to pay the federal bureaucrats to process all those applications?”

    The applicants pay for most of it. An applicant must already pay $1,070.00 to adjust status to legal permanant resident. Last time we granted some form of a waiver to people who had entered illegally, we charged the applicants an additional $1,000.00, plus any other fee based on the relief requested. We could charge more this time around. If they want to be legal, they’ll pay it.

    @98 “We borrowed trillions of $$ to pay for all the services that immigrants get from the “safety net” that is supposed to be for citizens in hardships.”

    See. Here is where your willingness to ignore all reality but your narrow fantasy version becomes so obvious. All those trillions we borrowed. None of that went to things like services for native born Americans, or overpaid government workers’ benefits plans, or defense waste, or corporate bailouts, or subsidies to non-viable “green” companies, or the millions of other ways that the government wastes money. Oh no. it ALL went to cover “benefits” to sg’s pet peeve. O of course, how silly of me.

    And all those unscrupulous busunessmen, they don’t pay any property taxes on their hotels and slaughterhouses and tanneries, etc., nor any taxes on their profits. And those immigrants: they pay no sales taxes nor payroll taxes nor specialized taxes like alcohol/gasoline/tobacco etc. (which is not to mention the income taxes that some of them do actually pay.) And no property taxes are paid on the homes they live in.

    And those unscrupuplous busunessmen, they don’t still have to compete with each other anymore, thus driving down prices for consumers. Oh no. you must have seen all their account books so you must know for a fact that none of that savings in labor costs got passed on to consumers. All that savings went into the pocket of some guy with a silk top hat and a cigar. None of it got passed on to an American elderly widow buying chicken, nor passed on to an American family who rented a room in a small hotel in Orlando. And none of those businesses have stockholders who are ordinary Americans either. Nobody has any stock in their 401k plan from a company that has hispanic and or illegal employees.

    None of that happened, not possible.

    And none of their American employees benefitted by having their jobs stay here instead of having the whole production plant migrate to Malaysia or something.

    I’m sure you’ve factored all that into your “mountains” of data when you talk about all these “trillions” we have borrowed just for hispanics.

  • kerner

    “O wehe! And what is it going to cost to pay the federal bureaucrats to process all those applications?”

    The applicants pay for most of it. An applicant must already pay $1,070.00 to adjust status to legal permanant resident. Last time we granted some form of a waiver to people who had entered illegally, we charged the applicants an additional $1,000.00, plus any other fee based on the relief requested. We could charge more this time around. If they want to be legal, they’ll pay it.

    @98 “We borrowed trillions of $$ to pay for all the services that immigrants get from the “safety net” that is supposed to be for citizens in hardships.”

    See. Here is where your willingness to ignore all reality but your narrow fantasy version becomes so obvious. All those trillions we borrowed. None of that went to things like services for native born Americans, or overpaid government workers’ benefits plans, or defense waste, or corporate bailouts, or subsidies to non-viable “green” companies, or the millions of other ways that the government wastes money. Oh no. it ALL went to cover “benefits” to sg’s pet peeve. O of course, how silly of me.

    And all those unscrupulous busunessmen, they don’t pay any property taxes on their hotels and slaughterhouses and tanneries, etc., nor any taxes on their profits. And those immigrants: they pay no sales taxes nor payroll taxes nor specialized taxes like alcohol/gasoline/tobacco etc. (which is not to mention the income taxes that some of them do actually pay.) And no property taxes are paid on the homes they live in.

    And those unscrupuplous busunessmen, they don’t still have to compete with each other anymore, thus driving down prices for consumers. Oh no. you must have seen all their account books so you must know for a fact that none of that savings in labor costs got passed on to consumers. All that savings went into the pocket of some guy with a silk top hat and a cigar. None of it got passed on to an American elderly widow buying chicken, nor passed on to an American family who rented a room in a small hotel in Orlando. And none of those businesses have stockholders who are ordinary Americans either. Nobody has any stock in their 401k plan from a company that has hispanic and or illegal employees.

    None of that happened, not possible.

    And none of their American employees benefitted by having their jobs stay here instead of having the whole production plant migrate to Malaysia or something.

    I’m sure you’ve factored all that into your “mountains” of data when you talk about all these “trillions” we have borrowed just for hispanics.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    102

    What a bunch of straw men.

    So, what proportion of low performing people is optimal?

    5%? 10%? 50%? 90%?

    Because at some point they overwhelm the ability of the average folks to provide for them. We already have some x proportion of people. How many more do we need? Your assertion that we had some awesome boom in the 90′s would be swell, except that it came at the cost of personal savings and increased federal and consumer borrowing. In other words it was a bubble. All of the stuff is connected. People can afford more stuff if they don’t save, don’t pay for their own health care or even food, so yeah you can create a bubble with borrowing. And we have enormous debt. If these additional immigrants were really so danged productive we wouldn’t have all this debt because revenue would pay for spending. We have increased our population by 50% in 40 years. During that time debt has increased. So, if there really were more productivity relative to consumption, we would have falling debt to GDP. But that is not what is happening. And no, the situation is not caused solely by immigration, we have home grown issues, but when the average productivity to consumption of immigrants is lower than the citizens, we need to be sure that we address that in immigration policy and you all are saying it doesn’t matter at all the abilities of immigrants because the free market, (which we don’t have due to government interventions) is going to make it all work out. Well, it isn’t all working out.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    102

    What a bunch of straw men.

    So, what proportion of low performing people is optimal?

    5%? 10%? 50%? 90%?

    Because at some point they overwhelm the ability of the average folks to provide for them. We already have some x proportion of people. How many more do we need? Your assertion that we had some awesome boom in the 90′s would be swell, except that it came at the cost of personal savings and increased federal and consumer borrowing. In other words it was a bubble. All of the stuff is connected. People can afford more stuff if they don’t save, don’t pay for their own health care or even food, so yeah you can create a bubble with borrowing. And we have enormous debt. If these additional immigrants were really so danged productive we wouldn’t have all this debt because revenue would pay for spending. We have increased our population by 50% in 40 years. During that time debt has increased. So, if there really were more productivity relative to consumption, we would have falling debt to GDP. But that is not what is happening. And no, the situation is not caused solely by immigration, we have home grown issues, but when the average productivity to consumption of immigrants is lower than the citizens, we need to be sure that we address that in immigration policy and you all are saying it doesn’t matter at all the abilities of immigrants because the free market, (which we don’t have due to government interventions) is going to make it all work out. Well, it isn’t all working out.

  • kerner

    None of that stuff is straw men. All of it happens every day. Look, lets just take food prices. These are hypothetical numbers which I don’t have time to look up, but lets just assume that all the illegals are deported tomorrow, less productive Americans are hired at higher wages, and as a result food priced increase by, oh, say, $10.00 per person per week. That’s $520.00 per person per year…times 310,000,000 people…which equals $161.1 Billion per year that real Americans, rich, poor everybody, save every year to buy “stuff”. “Stuff” that Americans produce or at least sell. Or that’s $1 Trillion every 6.21 years that illegals contribute to the American economy in food cost savings alone. And that’s just in food cost savings, not to mention all the other industries in which they do the same thing. And it doesn’t take into account all the taxes that they actually pay, or the taxes their employers pay. Or the sales taxes that Americans pay when they buy “stuff” other than food with their savings from low food costs (considering food is not subject to sales tax, whereas most other “stuff” is subject to sales tax) Which is to say that illegal immigrant labor contributes real trillions of $$ to the US economy which is way more than they take out of it.

    But you never consider any of that in your “mountains of data” ; you carefully select which mountains to consider.

    But the point is not that a black market in labor is a good thing. The point is that attempts to supress market forces by government fiat always have the effect of creating black markets, and don’t really control market forces much at all. Legalizing all this black market labor is the only rational answer.

    And for the zillionth time, productive people are not “low functioning”, even when they are being productive in humbler fields. Especially when they have the opportunity to move up into more lucretive fields later.

    I don’t have time to argue this anymore, so if you want the last word, you can have it. But your arguments that market forces don’t produce the most for everybody just fail. You can’t escape that.

  • kerner

    None of that stuff is straw men. All of it happens every day. Look, lets just take food prices. These are hypothetical numbers which I don’t have time to look up, but lets just assume that all the illegals are deported tomorrow, less productive Americans are hired at higher wages, and as a result food priced increase by, oh, say, $10.00 per person per week. That’s $520.00 per person per year…times 310,000,000 people…which equals $161.1 Billion per year that real Americans, rich, poor everybody, save every year to buy “stuff”. “Stuff” that Americans produce or at least sell. Or that’s $1 Trillion every 6.21 years that illegals contribute to the American economy in food cost savings alone. And that’s just in food cost savings, not to mention all the other industries in which they do the same thing. And it doesn’t take into account all the taxes that they actually pay, or the taxes their employers pay. Or the sales taxes that Americans pay when they buy “stuff” other than food with their savings from low food costs (considering food is not subject to sales tax, whereas most other “stuff” is subject to sales tax) Which is to say that illegal immigrant labor contributes real trillions of $$ to the US economy which is way more than they take out of it.

    But you never consider any of that in your “mountains of data” ; you carefully select which mountains to consider.

    But the point is not that a black market in labor is a good thing. The point is that attempts to supress market forces by government fiat always have the effect of creating black markets, and don’t really control market forces much at all. Legalizing all this black market labor is the only rational answer.

    And for the zillionth time, productive people are not “low functioning”, even when they are being productive in humbler fields. Especially when they have the opportunity to move up into more lucretive fields later.

    I don’t have time to argue this anymore, so if you want the last word, you can have it. But your arguments that market forces don’t produce the most for everybody just fail. You can’t escape that.

  • Cincinnatus

    kerner:

    1) The question isn’t whether illegal immigrants working in, say, agriculture are contributing to economic growth and wealth (for some people, anyway). No one would deny this fact. The fat cats at Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, Dole, Tyson, etc., wouldn’t deny this fact. The problem, then, is economism. Maybe tomatoes are $0.10 cheaper thanks to illegal labor (being paid illegal wages), but what is lost in this transaction, in this pursuit of great quantity at lower prices?

    You’re using the same rhetoric deployed by apologists for “Wall-Street” corporatism and Reaganite “voodoo economics.” On paper, the economy grew between the Clinton and Bush II tenures. But scads of research show that very little of that growth ended up in the pockets of ordinary citizens, that very little of that growth actually contributed to the common good–heck, that even less of that growth ended up in the hands of those illegals who you claim were the engine of said growth. The same could be said of NAFTA: it increased commerce and enriched quite a few capitalists, but it also directly eliminated over 700,000 American manufacturing jobs while simultaneously devastating the Mexican agricultural sector. Was it worth it?

    2) Everybody–Grace, KK, kerner, etc.–stop it with the hand-wringing over sg’s use of “low-functioning.” I don’t endorse the entirety of sg’s argument, but terms like “low-functioning,” “dysfunctional,” “low social capital,” and so on are empirically rooted social scientific terminology accepted and deployed by sociologists, economists, and political scientists. Sorry if that offends your politically-correct sensibilities. Some communities are dysfunctional across a host of empirically measurable metrics. Some communities have low social capital. Some of those communities are even best distinguished by race or ethnicity. That’s just how it is.

  • Cincinnatus

    kerner:

    1) The question isn’t whether illegal immigrants working in, say, agriculture are contributing to economic growth and wealth (for some people, anyway). No one would deny this fact. The fat cats at Monsanto, Cargill, ADM, Dole, Tyson, etc., wouldn’t deny this fact. The problem, then, is economism. Maybe tomatoes are $0.10 cheaper thanks to illegal labor (being paid illegal wages), but what is lost in this transaction, in this pursuit of great quantity at lower prices?

    You’re using the same rhetoric deployed by apologists for “Wall-Street” corporatism and Reaganite “voodoo economics.” On paper, the economy grew between the Clinton and Bush II tenures. But scads of research show that very little of that growth ended up in the pockets of ordinary citizens, that very little of that growth actually contributed to the common good–heck, that even less of that growth ended up in the hands of those illegals who you claim were the engine of said growth. The same could be said of NAFTA: it increased commerce and enriched quite a few capitalists, but it also directly eliminated over 700,000 American manufacturing jobs while simultaneously devastating the Mexican agricultural sector. Was it worth it?

    2) Everybody–Grace, KK, kerner, etc.–stop it with the hand-wringing over sg’s use of “low-functioning.” I don’t endorse the entirety of sg’s argument, but terms like “low-functioning,” “dysfunctional,” “low social capital,” and so on are empirically rooted social scientific terminology accepted and deployed by sociologists, economists, and political scientists. Sorry if that offends your politically-correct sensibilities. Some communities are dysfunctional across a host of empirically measurable metrics. Some communities have low social capital. Some of those communities are even best distinguished by race or ethnicity. That’s just how it is.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @105

    “2) Everybody–Grace, KK, kerner, etc.–stop it with the hand-wringing over sg’s use of “low-functioning.” I don’t endorse the entirety of sg’s argument, but terms like “low-functioning,” “dysfunctional,” “low social capital,” and so on are empirically rooted social scientific terminology accepted and deployed by sociologists, economists, and political scientists. Sorry if that offends your politically-correct sensibilities.”

    BELOW, my post at 69 which still stands!


    “I am not in favor of illegals being allowed to get a free ride, nor do I believe they have some special right to stay in the U.S., taking advantage of health care, educations, etc.

    HOWEVER,

    I DO FIND it extremely OFFENSIVE to label them as “low functioning” or, “Low performing” as though they are retarded or are limited in some way as to mental ability, such as autism, aspergers, ADS, and a host of other problems – labeling an entire ethnic group.

    Promoting a SUPERIOR RACE attitude, is nasty – its born of a smug mind set, which is completely false. What would cause an individual to label another ethnic group, with a broad brush with dripping SUPERIOR, resentment ?

    ☀ Kirk made an excellent point @31


    “And FYI, calling a people group “low social functioning, dysfunctional, low performing” with “habits/proclivities that will make them permanent underclass” does mean that you think of them as lesser beings. Those characteristics that you ascribe to the entire Hispanic people group basically meets the definition of a lesser being.”

    The word “low” used to describe anyone, sg believes to be beneath her is hateful – where it stems from in her thought and heart, .. who knows. “Low functioning is used to define “autism” “aspergers” and ADS, – it doesn’t define Hispanics.

    No one is “hand wringing” Cincinnatus. Sg in incorrect, she labels people, just as its been done in the last century, including a war in Europe, a civil war in the 1800′s, which was won by the north. It has taken a long time to tame the pain people have felt. Do you want a similar situation with the northern border?

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @105

    “2) Everybody–Grace, KK, kerner, etc.–stop it with the hand-wringing over sg’s use of “low-functioning.” I don’t endorse the entirety of sg’s argument, but terms like “low-functioning,” “dysfunctional,” “low social capital,” and so on are empirically rooted social scientific terminology accepted and deployed by sociologists, economists, and political scientists. Sorry if that offends your politically-correct sensibilities.”

    BELOW, my post at 69 which still stands!


    “I am not in favor of illegals being allowed to get a free ride, nor do I believe they have some special right to stay in the U.S., taking advantage of health care, educations, etc.

    HOWEVER,

    I DO FIND it extremely OFFENSIVE to label them as “low functioning” or, “Low performing” as though they are retarded or are limited in some way as to mental ability, such as autism, aspergers, ADS, and a host of other problems – labeling an entire ethnic group.

    Promoting a SUPERIOR RACE attitude, is nasty – its born of a smug mind set, which is completely false. What would cause an individual to label another ethnic group, with a broad brush with dripping SUPERIOR, resentment ?

    ☀ Kirk made an excellent point @31


    “And FYI, calling a people group “low social functioning, dysfunctional, low performing” with “habits/proclivities that will make them permanent underclass” does mean that you think of them as lesser beings. Those characteristics that you ascribe to the entire Hispanic people group basically meets the definition of a lesser being.”

    The word “low” used to describe anyone, sg believes to be beneath her is hateful – where it stems from in her thought and heart, .. who knows. “Low functioning is used to define “autism” “aspergers” and ADS, – it doesn’t define Hispanics.

    No one is “hand wringing” Cincinnatus. Sg in incorrect, she labels people, just as its been done in the last century, including a war in Europe, a civil war in the 1800′s, which was won by the north. It has taken a long time to tame the pain people have felt. Do you want a similar situation with the northern border?

  • Grace

    RE: my post @106

    “Do you want a similar situation with the northern border?”

    SHOULD READ:

    Do you want a similar situation with the southern border of the United States?

  • Grace

    RE: my post @106

    “Do you want a similar situation with the northern border?”

    SHOULD READ:

    Do you want a similar situation with the southern border of the United States?

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace,

    And you, Kirk, and all the other PC-police are wrong! This is empirical, sociologically acceptable language. SG didn’t make it up, and sociologists aren’t being “racist” or “classist” in using it. When a sociologist wants to explain why a certain community fails–for example, inner-city Detroit–they’ll use language like low-performing, dysfunctional, low social capital, etc. It has nothing to do with mental capacity or “retardation”. It refers to measurable social indices and economic measurements, etc. A “low-performing community,” for example, is one that is poor with a high illegitimacy rate, low civic participation, low academic achievement and social mobility, and so on.

    If you don’t like the terms, take it up with a) the entire academy that uses the language in an empirically direct way and b) the communities that fail. We have to describe such phenomena somehow. Do you have better candidates for helpful terminology?

  • Cincinnatus

    Grace,

    And you, Kirk, and all the other PC-police are wrong! This is empirical, sociologically acceptable language. SG didn’t make it up, and sociologists aren’t being “racist” or “classist” in using it. When a sociologist wants to explain why a certain community fails–for example, inner-city Detroit–they’ll use language like low-performing, dysfunctional, low social capital, etc. It has nothing to do with mental capacity or “retardation”. It refers to measurable social indices and economic measurements, etc. A “low-performing community,” for example, is one that is poor with a high illegitimacy rate, low civic participation, low academic achievement and social mobility, and so on.

    If you don’t like the terms, take it up with a) the entire academy that uses the language in an empirically direct way and b) the communities that fail. We have to describe such phenomena somehow. Do you have better candidates for helpful terminology?

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @108 – ” Do you have better candidates for helpful terminology?”

    YES I do – it can be found in the Word of God!

    “Low functioning” is a derogatory term, when applied to an entire ethnic group. When it’s used repeatedly by an individual, it becomes apparent, that it’s racist. In the case of this particular blog, there are many posts made by the same person who delights in using the offensive term.

    It’s not a matter of political correctness Cincinnatus, it’s a shinning example of trying to down grade an ethnic group over and over again. The Hispanic community is not going to be deported back to the southern border. Those who are criminals will most likely be sent home, but the rest are staying, no matter how much others want to deport them.

    A very dear physician friend our ours, sold his practice and retired a few years ago. He is now donating his time to care for those who are less fortunate, FREE. Most of these people are Hispanic, they are not proficient in the English language, therefore needing an interpreter, which is provided. This is what is taking place all over Southern CA. People helping others, who’s dream was to come to America, and have a chance to work and thrive – doing all the jobs others won’t do, or do poorly, because they feel it beneath them – however those from below the border do it willingly, grateful for the money they earn to help themselves and those who are struggling back home.

    I used to have a different attitude about those who are illegal, but as I’ve observed the entire situation, I’ve changed my mind. I believe God ALMIGHTY worked in my heart to see that others, less fortunate in many ways, needed help, just like the Samaritan found someone who needed assistance. This country is teetering about on a scale. We’ve become accustomed to so much, we can’t imagine what it’s like to live without adequate housing, toilets that work, enough food, protection from those who might harm us. We are so spoiled – and believe we deserve the best leaving what’s left for others. It’s very much like the story of Lazarus, .. the rich man leaving the crumbs for the poor man.

    God will help us, help others.

  • Grace

    Cincinnatus @108 – ” Do you have better candidates for helpful terminology?”

    YES I do – it can be found in the Word of God!

    “Low functioning” is a derogatory term, when applied to an entire ethnic group. When it’s used repeatedly by an individual, it becomes apparent, that it’s racist. In the case of this particular blog, there are many posts made by the same person who delights in using the offensive term.

    It’s not a matter of political correctness Cincinnatus, it’s a shinning example of trying to down grade an ethnic group over and over again. The Hispanic community is not going to be deported back to the southern border. Those who are criminals will most likely be sent home, but the rest are staying, no matter how much others want to deport them.

    A very dear physician friend our ours, sold his practice and retired a few years ago. He is now donating his time to care for those who are less fortunate, FREE. Most of these people are Hispanic, they are not proficient in the English language, therefore needing an interpreter, which is provided. This is what is taking place all over Southern CA. People helping others, who’s dream was to come to America, and have a chance to work and thrive – doing all the jobs others won’t do, or do poorly, because they feel it beneath them – however those from below the border do it willingly, grateful for the money they earn to help themselves and those who are struggling back home.

    I used to have a different attitude about those who are illegal, but as I’ve observed the entire situation, I’ve changed my mind. I believe God ALMIGHTY worked in my heart to see that others, less fortunate in many ways, needed help, just like the Samaritan found someone who needed assistance. This country is teetering about on a scale. We’ve become accustomed to so much, we can’t imagine what it’s like to live without adequate housing, toilets that work, enough food, protection from those who might harm us. We are so spoiled – and believe we deserve the best leaving what’s left for others. It’s very much like the story of Lazarus, .. the rich man leaving the crumbs for the poor man.

    God will help us, help others.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    We’ve become accustomed to so much, we can’t imagine what it’s like to live without adequate housing, toilets that work, enough food, protection from those who might harm us.

    Okay, but Americans are not to blame for bad conditions in Mexico, the Mexicans are. Mexico is a fairly well off country and can actually afford to help its own citizens, but when do you ever hear criticism of Mexicans for the way they treat their own? Far from a welfare state, it is exploitive, with the highest after tax GINI coefficient.

    Gini coefficient on after-taxes and transfers basis for total population ranged between 0.25 to 0.48, with Denmark the lowest and Mexico the highest.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

    Why do we give Mexico a pass on the way it treats its citizens? The Mexican president even came here and chided us for not being nice enough to his citizens whom he did not protect from violence and exploitation in the country he governs. But no, never a word about how bad their government is nor how abusive its upper classes are. If there is a country on whom we should impose trade sanctions for the abuse of its citizens how about Mexico? Well, of course not, we’ve got Mexican capitalist Carlos Slim’s gray lady constantly blaming American citizens for the problems of Mexicans.

    Mexicans are people like the rest of us and as such have the same moral duties to their fellow citizens. We provide for ours and they can provide for theirs. If you want to shame someone, how about those well to do Mexicans?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    We’ve become accustomed to so much, we can’t imagine what it’s like to live without adequate housing, toilets that work, enough food, protection from those who might harm us.

    Okay, but Americans are not to blame for bad conditions in Mexico, the Mexicans are. Mexico is a fairly well off country and can actually afford to help its own citizens, but when do you ever hear criticism of Mexicans for the way they treat their own? Far from a welfare state, it is exploitive, with the highest after tax GINI coefficient.

    Gini coefficient on after-taxes and transfers basis for total population ranged between 0.25 to 0.48, with Denmark the lowest and Mexico the highest.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

    Why do we give Mexico a pass on the way it treats its citizens? The Mexican president even came here and chided us for not being nice enough to his citizens whom he did not protect from violence and exploitation in the country he governs. But no, never a word about how bad their government is nor how abusive its upper classes are. If there is a country on whom we should impose trade sanctions for the abuse of its citizens how about Mexico? Well, of course not, we’ve got Mexican capitalist Carlos Slim’s gray lady constantly blaming American citizens for the problems of Mexicans.

    Mexicans are people like the rest of us and as such have the same moral duties to their fellow citizens. We provide for ours and they can provide for theirs. If you want to shame someone, how about those well to do Mexicans?

  • Grace

    It’s not a matter of blame – it’s a situation of need.

    Sg, you’re looking for ways to side-step those who ARE HERE, and are NOT LEAVING – help them. Name calling, believing you are intellectually better is some way, is nauseating.

    I recall, not so long ago, having a conversation with you, on this blog regarding charities, (my relating starting one up north, to help people in all sorts of situations) I asked you if you volunteered to the less fortunate, and your answer was, ….. “I have kids to take care of at home I don’t have time” – of course one can always help man a “hot line” from your home, but it appears that would be too much for you as well. That answer, combined with my question to you, regarding any sort of career you might have had, if you you were educated in any sort of field, has not been anwsered.

  • Grace

    It’s not a matter of blame – it’s a situation of need.

    Sg, you’re looking for ways to side-step those who ARE HERE, and are NOT LEAVING – help them. Name calling, believing you are intellectually better is some way, is nauseating.

    I recall, not so long ago, having a conversation with you, on this blog regarding charities, (my relating starting one up north, to help people in all sorts of situations) I asked you if you volunteered to the less fortunate, and your answer was, ….. “I have kids to take care of at home I don’t have time” – of course one can always help man a “hot line” from your home, but it appears that would be too much for you as well. That answer, combined with my question to you, regarding any sort of career you might have had, if you you were educated in any sort of field, has not been anwsered.

  • kerner

    Cin:

    This is not an attempt to be PC. I understand that widespread dysfunction withing an identifiable group of humans beings has to be described somehow. And even ethnic jokes, as well as scholarly studies, on one level merely describe characteristics of a community that exist.

    But it is not that mere description that concerns me. Where I believe sg errs is that she assumes that all members of an entire group are uneducable, or unable to adopt new standards of behavior. And she dismisses any attempt to teach and/or assimilate hispanic immigrants as a waste of time and effort. She consistently blows off any counter-example of a hard working or educated hispanic and returns to her ubiquitous theme that all hispanics cannot learn, will never obey the criminal code, and will absolutely never support a system that rewards hard work.

    Likewise, she ignores the existence of all the other formerly dysfunctional ethnic groups who came to this country from deplorable conditions in their own countries, and who seemed so manifestly dysfunctional to native-born Americans that it was said of some of them that it would take at least 3 of these immigrants to screw in a lightbulb (cue laughter here).

    As for the contributions to the competitive marketplace versus the exploitation inherant in black markets, the solution I propose is to eliminate black markets by legalizing them and bringing them under the same regulation as everyone else. When a market based system is being ruined by excessive regulation, the solution is to reduce regulations and allow the market to work. The solution is NOT to impose a whole additional body of regulations to counteract the old ones.

    What we have to do is resist the statist/protectionist impulse to arbitrarily decide that certain jobs are reserved for certain people and that the government should guarantee that the right person will get a particular job. That has been a recipe for dissaster every time it is tried and this attampt is no different.

    As for the state of our society today, I am the first to admit that plenty of people have made far too many bad individual financial decisions. But I still say that it is beyond arrogance to try to dictate, via the force of government, to a free people as to how they should spend their money.

    Is the elderly widow wrong to want to buy chicken? Who are you to say that nobody should have the right to produce it at a price she can afford? Is the family wrong to want to go on vacation to a theme park in Orlando? Maybe, but who are you to say that nobody should be allowed to provide them with decent lodging they can affford? Is it a good idea for women to work outside the home? Maybe not. But who are you to say that they shouldn’t be able to find good affordable child care if that’s what they want to do? I keep repeating that it is not simply the employer of the immigrant’s labor, but it is the customer who drives the transaction. And it’s true. It is American demand for the things immigrant labor produces that keeps the immigrants working.

    I am getting a little tired of the sham concern for the immigrant worker from the anti-immigration crowd. Once again, the state knows better what is good for the individual than what the individual wants for himself. If the immigrant weren’t better off here, he wouldn’t be here. The immigrants retain more of the wealth they produce here than they got to keep when they worked in their own countries. And plenty of them do better here that you like to admit. Of course, laws that interfere in the market by making it harder for them to get above the table jobs, pay taxes, get credit, get bank accounts, get driver’s licenses, even find shelter, etc. make the immigrant easier to exploit. And the answer to that is to remove market inhibiting ridiculous regulations like those.

  • kerner

    Cin:

    This is not an attempt to be PC. I understand that widespread dysfunction withing an identifiable group of humans beings has to be described somehow. And even ethnic jokes, as well as scholarly studies, on one level merely describe characteristics of a community that exist.

    But it is not that mere description that concerns me. Where I believe sg errs is that she assumes that all members of an entire group are uneducable, or unable to adopt new standards of behavior. And she dismisses any attempt to teach and/or assimilate hispanic immigrants as a waste of time and effort. She consistently blows off any counter-example of a hard working or educated hispanic and returns to her ubiquitous theme that all hispanics cannot learn, will never obey the criminal code, and will absolutely never support a system that rewards hard work.

    Likewise, she ignores the existence of all the other formerly dysfunctional ethnic groups who came to this country from deplorable conditions in their own countries, and who seemed so manifestly dysfunctional to native-born Americans that it was said of some of them that it would take at least 3 of these immigrants to screw in a lightbulb (cue laughter here).

    As for the contributions to the competitive marketplace versus the exploitation inherant in black markets, the solution I propose is to eliminate black markets by legalizing them and bringing them under the same regulation as everyone else. When a market based system is being ruined by excessive regulation, the solution is to reduce regulations and allow the market to work. The solution is NOT to impose a whole additional body of regulations to counteract the old ones.

    What we have to do is resist the statist/protectionist impulse to arbitrarily decide that certain jobs are reserved for certain people and that the government should guarantee that the right person will get a particular job. That has been a recipe for dissaster every time it is tried and this attampt is no different.

    As for the state of our society today, I am the first to admit that plenty of people have made far too many bad individual financial decisions. But I still say that it is beyond arrogance to try to dictate, via the force of government, to a free people as to how they should spend their money.

    Is the elderly widow wrong to want to buy chicken? Who are you to say that nobody should have the right to produce it at a price she can afford? Is the family wrong to want to go on vacation to a theme park in Orlando? Maybe, but who are you to say that nobody should be allowed to provide them with decent lodging they can affford? Is it a good idea for women to work outside the home? Maybe not. But who are you to say that they shouldn’t be able to find good affordable child care if that’s what they want to do? I keep repeating that it is not simply the employer of the immigrant’s labor, but it is the customer who drives the transaction. And it’s true. It is American demand for the things immigrant labor produces that keeps the immigrants working.

    I am getting a little tired of the sham concern for the immigrant worker from the anti-immigration crowd. Once again, the state knows better what is good for the individual than what the individual wants for himself. If the immigrant weren’t better off here, he wouldn’t be here. The immigrants retain more of the wealth they produce here than they got to keep when they worked in their own countries. And plenty of them do better here that you like to admit. Of course, laws that interfere in the market by making it harder for them to get above the table jobs, pay taxes, get credit, get bank accounts, get driver’s licenses, even find shelter, etc. make the immigrant easier to exploit. And the answer to that is to remove market inhibiting ridiculous regulations like those.

  • fjsteve

    @109

    Those who are criminals will most likely be sent home, but the rest are staying, no matter how much others want to deport them.

    Of course, we know all of those people by the bright red sign they wear as they cross the border. So we just keep them out and let everyone else in. Easy answer. Oh… wait!

  • fjsteve

    @109

    Those who are criminals will most likely be sent home, but the rest are staying, no matter how much others want to deport them.

    Of course, we know all of those people by the bright red sign they wear as they cross the border. So we just keep them out and let everyone else in. Easy answer. Oh… wait!

  • Grace

    fjsteve @ 113 YOU WROTE: “Of course, we know all of those people by the bright red sign they wear as they cross the border. So we just keep them out and let everyone else in. Easy answer. Oh… wait!”

    Your foolish comment doesn’t deserve an answer – learn to read and comprehend what is written, so you MIGHT be able to respond without a sophomoric out-burst!

  • Grace

    fjsteve @ 113 YOU WROTE: “Of course, we know all of those people by the bright red sign they wear as they cross the border. So we just keep them out and let everyone else in. Easy answer. Oh… wait!”

    Your foolish comment doesn’t deserve an answer – learn to read and comprehend what is written, so you MIGHT be able to respond without a sophomoric out-burst!

  • fjsteve

    @114, and of course you couldn’t resist by responding with your own sophomoric outburst. You think it’s foolish to bring up the fact that many people who come into the country illegally, every day, are in fact criminals? Can you tell me why this merits no room in the debate? You want to help those already here who are trying to work and make a life for themselves. I get that. But you’re dreaming if you don’t think there is a huge security risk by not addressing the other half of the immigration problem (i.e., what we do to keep them from coming illegally in the first place). By coming legally both they, and we, get many benefits. They don’t have to live in fear under the radar–not just fear of law enforcement but fear of their own countrymen who prey on them), and we can more easily sort out the ne’er-do-wells. Letting them come across illegally puts both groups at risk.

  • fjsteve

    @114, and of course you couldn’t resist by responding with your own sophomoric outburst. You think it’s foolish to bring up the fact that many people who come into the country illegally, every day, are in fact criminals? Can you tell me why this merits no room in the debate? You want to help those already here who are trying to work and make a life for themselves. I get that. But you’re dreaming if you don’t think there is a huge security risk by not addressing the other half of the immigration problem (i.e., what we do to keep them from coming illegally in the first place). By coming legally both they, and we, get many benefits. They don’t have to live in fear under the radar–not just fear of law enforcement but fear of their own countrymen who prey on them), and we can more easily sort out the ne’er-do-wells. Letting them come across illegally puts both groups at risk.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    A big part of modern political discourse is that one cannot call a spade a spade without being accused of being a racist. Even using the word, “spade” is racist.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    A big part of modern political discourse is that one cannot call a spade a spade without being accused of being a racist. Even using the word, “spade” is racist.

  • Grace

    fjsteve @ 115

    I’ve been very clear, on many threads, on this blog, regarding the subject of stricter laws for our borders, and laws that prohibit criminals from coming BACK over the border. Add to that, sending those who are criminals back where they came from, NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN. That is much different than deporting those who are already here, having children who were born in the U.S.

    I have also stated that people who wish to come to the U.S. WAIT THEIR TURN. It’s too late to deport families and children who have been born here, educated here – sending them back to their country.

  • Grace

    fjsteve @ 115

    I’ve been very clear, on many threads, on this blog, regarding the subject of stricter laws for our borders, and laws that prohibit criminals from coming BACK over the border. Add to that, sending those who are criminals back where they came from, NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN. That is much different than deporting those who are already here, having children who were born in the U.S.

    I have also stated that people who wish to come to the U.S. WAIT THEIR TURN. It’s too late to deport families and children who have been born here, educated here – sending them back to their country.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Where I believe sg errs is that she assumes that all members of an entire group are uneducable, or unable to adopt new standards of behavior.

    Not true. I addressed that in comment 87.

    And she dismisses any attempt to teach and/or assimilate hispanic immigrants as a waste of time and effort. She consistently blows off any counter-example of a hard working or educated hispanic and returns to her ubiquitous theme that all hispanics cannot learn, will never obey the criminal code, and will absolutely never support a system that rewards hard work.

    Not true. I address group average performance based on generations of objective criteria. As for assimilation, come on, living day in day out here in the USA and going to school 35 hours a week 36 weeks a year for 12 years at an average cost of $10-$25 per kid per year and free school lunches, free medical, WIC, food stamps sure the heck is a lot of effort on our part to help them assimilate. And how are they doing? Well below average as a group. Enforcing immigration laws would reduce crime and dysfunction among them because we would get better people on average. Please note that they are the ones who suffer most from crime in their neighborhoods especially violent crime. So the nice ones can’t escape the creeps even when they take the drastic action of moving to another country!

    Finally, I want to come back to the ecological fallacy. Any given individual of a group cannot be assumed to be near the group average. So generalizations cannot be applied to any individual of any group. However, generalizations about group performance are valid when referring to the entire group. So, noting that South Asians have the highest per capita income of any group is a valid generalization as is noting that hispanics have the highest per capita illegitimacy rate and the highest life expectancy on average of any group in the US. Those stats are worthless for evaluating individuals in those groups. Any given individual is rather unlikely to represent the mean/median.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Where I believe sg errs is that she assumes that all members of an entire group are uneducable, or unable to adopt new standards of behavior.

    Not true. I addressed that in comment 87.

    And she dismisses any attempt to teach and/or assimilate hispanic immigrants as a waste of time and effort. She consistently blows off any counter-example of a hard working or educated hispanic and returns to her ubiquitous theme that all hispanics cannot learn, will never obey the criminal code, and will absolutely never support a system that rewards hard work.

    Not true. I address group average performance based on generations of objective criteria. As for assimilation, come on, living day in day out here in the USA and going to school 35 hours a week 36 weeks a year for 12 years at an average cost of $10-$25 per kid per year and free school lunches, free medical, WIC, food stamps sure the heck is a lot of effort on our part to help them assimilate. And how are they doing? Well below average as a group. Enforcing immigration laws would reduce crime and dysfunction among them because we would get better people on average. Please note that they are the ones who suffer most from crime in their neighborhoods especially violent crime. So the nice ones can’t escape the creeps even when they take the drastic action of moving to another country!

    Finally, I want to come back to the ecological fallacy. Any given individual of a group cannot be assumed to be near the group average. So generalizations cannot be applied to any individual of any group. However, generalizations about group performance are valid when referring to the entire group. So, noting that South Asians have the highest per capita income of any group is a valid generalization as is noting that hispanics have the highest per capita illegitimacy rate and the highest life expectancy on average of any group in the US. Those stats are worthless for evaluating individuals in those groups. Any given individual is rather unlikely to represent the mean/median.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    $10-$25 per kid per year

    Should be

    $10K-$25K per kid per year

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    $10-$25 per kid per year

    Should be

    $10K-$25K per kid per year

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “All of those were low functioning at the time the immigrants left. Russia, Vietnam, India and arguably even China still are.”

    No they weren’t. They were top performing countries at the time the immigrants left. Russia was a superpower for crying out loud and had us shaking in our boots and our kids hiding under their school desks. Vietnam, was pretty low, as it didn’t have its own written language. India, hello, our worldwide number system was their original creation and the source of tons of mathematics. China is the manufacturer to the world, busy colonizing Africa, builds more that it knows what to do with, literally, and has one of the oldest writing systems in the world. A perennially top performing society with millennia filled with profound thinkers, philosophers art, culture, sophisticated civilization too much to name here.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    “All of those were low functioning at the time the immigrants left. Russia, Vietnam, India and arguably even China still are.”

    No they weren’t. They were top performing countries at the time the immigrants left. Russia was a superpower for crying out loud and had us shaking in our boots and our kids hiding under their school desks. Vietnam, was pretty low, as it didn’t have its own written language. India, hello, our worldwide number system was their original creation and the source of tons of mathematics. China is the manufacturer to the world, busy colonizing Africa, builds more that it knows what to do with, literally, and has one of the oldest writing systems in the world. A perennially top performing society with millennia filled with profound thinkers, philosophers art, culture, sophisticated civilization too much to name here.

  • Joe

    Something that has not been mentioned here is the unintended consequence of the broader tightening that we have done. Historically, a large percentage of the illegal Mexican population did not stay here permanently. They came for the harvest season, worked and then went back to Mexico. Thus they had a lesser impact on the service infrastructure and someone who is here year round. The tightening of the boarder has created an incentive to stay permanently. The out flow has stopped but the incentives to come – which are mostly jobs; not hand outs – remain. Making it harder to get in only incentives staying once you manage to get here and as long as the market says you ought to get here, they will come.

    Immigration policy is not somehow immune from the law of unintended consequences, nor is it some magical set of rules that can ignore basic market drivers.

  • Joe

    Something that has not been mentioned here is the unintended consequence of the broader tightening that we have done. Historically, a large percentage of the illegal Mexican population did not stay here permanently. They came for the harvest season, worked and then went back to Mexico. Thus they had a lesser impact on the service infrastructure and someone who is here year round. The tightening of the boarder has created an incentive to stay permanently. The out flow has stopped but the incentives to come – which are mostly jobs; not hand outs – remain. Making it harder to get in only incentives staying once you manage to get here and as long as the market says you ought to get here, they will come.

    Immigration policy is not somehow immune from the law of unintended consequences, nor is it some magical set of rules that can ignore basic market drivers.


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