Good news/bad news on abortifacient mandate

An appeals courts has given a victory to Christian colleges suing over Obamacare’s requirement that they provide free contraceptives and morning-after pills.  But another appeals court has upheld the requirement for Christian-owned businesses.

A federal appeals court on Tuesday sided with Wheaton College and Belmont Abbey College in a decision related to the ongoing court challenges to the Obama administration’s birth control mandate. The court said it would hold the Obama administration to its promise to never implement the current birth control mandate and to create a new rule by August, as part of the court decision.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ordered Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius to give it updates every 60 days, beginning in February, until a new rule is issued in August. The lawsuits will be held in abeyance until that time.

“There will, the government said, be a different rule for entities like the appellants,” the court wrote, “and we take that as a binding commitment. The government further represented that it would publish a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking for the new rule in the first quarter of 2013 and would issue a new Final Rule before August 2013. We take the government at its word and will hold it to it.”

Sebelius first issued the rule in January. As part of the Affordable Care Act, or “Obamacare,” she ruled that employers must cover contraception, sterilization and some abortifacient drugs in their health care insurance for employees. There is a religious exemption, but the exemption is so narrow that most religious employers, including religious schools, are not exempt. There have been about 40 lawsuits related to the mandate.

via Christian Colleges Score Win: Court Orders Rewrite of Birth Control Mandate.

No such good news for Hobby Lobby, whose owners are devout pro-life Christians:

A federal appeals court on Thursday refused to shield Hobby Lobby Stores from the Obama administration’s contraception mandate — and the fines that come with it for not complying — in a blow to the largest employer to challenge the ObamaCare rule.

In response, the Christian-owned company vowed to appeal the case to the Supreme Court.

CEO David Green, who had taken his case to the appeals court after losing in a lower-court ruling, had argued that his family would have to either “violate their faith by covering abortion-causing drugs or be exposed to severe penalties.”

The mandate requires businesses and organizations, with some exceptions, to provide access to contraception coverage — Hobby Lobby was most concerned about coverage for the morning-after pill, which some consider tantamount to an abortion-causing drug. Hobby Lobby has refused to comply, while saying the fines could add up to $1.3 million a day. . . .

There are currently more than 40 cases pending against that rule, though the Supreme Court has not yet stepped into the fray.

In its ruling, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals said the company did not prove the rule would “substantially burden” its religious freedom. Though the mandate has exemptions for religious entities like churches, the lower court ruled that Hobby Lobby is not a religious group.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://derekjohnsonmuses.com Derek Johnson

    Doesn’t Obama realize that religion causes more social unrest than sexual freedom & thus needs to be given more freedom?

  • http://derekjohnsonmuses.com Derek Johnson

    Doesn’t Obama realize that religion causes more social unrest than sexual freedom & thus needs to be given more freedom?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Sure, Hobby Lobby is “not a religious group.”

    But that wasn’t the issue, was it? Wasn’t the issue really about the free exercise of individuals’ (the owners of Hobby Lobby) religious freedoms?

    Obamacare is oppressive, and this particular provision is particularly oppressive.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Sure, Hobby Lobby is “not a religious group.”

    But that wasn’t the issue, was it? Wasn’t the issue really about the free exercise of individuals’ (the owners of Hobby Lobby) religious freedoms?

    Obamacare is oppressive, and this particular provision is particularly oppressive.

  • Jon H.

    Why wouldn’t businesses like this simply forbid – as a matter of employment – workers from using condoms or birth control pills or from getting vascetomies? Then the health insurance provision is moot, since the insurance companies are bearing the cost of the premium anyway. But if getting a vasectomy is morally repugnant, shouldn’t getting one be grounds for termination, whether it was paid for by an insurance company or out of pocket? This issue seems far more about money (or publicity) than it does religious freedom.

  • Jon H.

    Why wouldn’t businesses like this simply forbid – as a matter of employment – workers from using condoms or birth control pills or from getting vascetomies? Then the health insurance provision is moot, since the insurance companies are bearing the cost of the premium anyway. But if getting a vasectomy is morally repugnant, shouldn’t getting one be grounds for termination, whether it was paid for by an insurance company or out of pocket? This issue seems far more about money (or publicity) than it does religious freedom.

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  • Lily Johnson

    Birth Control was the only thing I could take for my small ovarian cysts. If my insurance didn’t cover it I wouldn’t have been able to afford it. I don’t understand in this day and age how anyone could seriously determine that an employer could withhold coverage of an essential part of WOMEN’S HEALTH because of what she MIGHT be doing with it in her free time. I simply cannot believe that anyone who truly deems women equal can do this. Access to birth control positively effects women’s health. I think its good the men in power got checked by Obama when so much is on the line.

  • Lily Johnson

    Birth Control was the only thing I could take for my small ovarian cysts. If my insurance didn’t cover it I wouldn’t have been able to afford it. I don’t understand in this day and age how anyone could seriously determine that an employer could withhold coverage of an essential part of WOMEN’S HEALTH because of what she MIGHT be doing with it in her free time. I simply cannot believe that anyone who truly deems women equal can do this. Access to birth control positively effects women’s health. I think its good the men in power got checked by Obama when so much is on the line.

  • Abby

    @4 How much does a birth control pill prescription cost per month?

  • Abby

    @4 How much does a birth control pill prescription cost per month?

  • Norman Teigen

    Good for you, Lily. Your comment should be read closely by the distinguished moderator of this site and the other church leaders who continue to perpetuate misunderstanding on the subject.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical,Lutheran Synod

  • Norman Teigen

    Good for you, Lily. Your comment should be read closely by the distinguished moderator of this site and the other church leaders who continue to perpetuate misunderstanding on the subject.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical,Lutheran Synod

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Birth control would be “covered” like any other prescription drug, with whatever co-pay you have for other medicines. But why is it singled out to be given free, to be fully paid by the insurer, unlike every other medicine? Why aren’t cancer drugs given free?

    Also, except for Catholics, most of the objectors don’t have a big problem with the contraception part of the mandate. The catching point is that the administration includes ‘morning after” pills as contraception, even though in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the womb it takes a life.

  • http://www.geneveith.com Gene Veith

    Birth control would be “covered” like any other prescription drug, with whatever co-pay you have for other medicines. But why is it singled out to be given free, to be fully paid by the insurer, unlike every other medicine? Why aren’t cancer drugs given free?

    Also, except for Catholics, most of the objectors don’t have a big problem with the contraception part of the mandate. The catching point is that the administration includes ‘morning after” pills as contraception, even though in preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the womb it takes a life.

  • Lily Johnson

    More than 50% of the time a woman’s body works as its own morning after pill and prevents fertilized eggs from implanting. Are you seriously indicating that those are all people whom have died? If so why isn’t the entire pro life effort focused on correcting that natural function of the woman’s body?

    Within the context of patriarchy, in a world where women are not even in full control of their sex lives, in a world where vaginal intercourse is defined as “real sex” even though most women cannot even orgasm during it, in a world where coercion and rape happen all to often. (I literally don’t know any sexually active woman who hasn’t been coerced.) In a world where husband’s second asks are considered a normal part of marriage and not treated as violence or a perpetuation of rape culture. In a world where having sex with your spouse is seen as a command from God. In a world where pastors preach that a wife has no full right to say no to sex. In a world where we are told “if were not in the mood” we should get in the mood. In a world where were told that if we don’t have to have sex with our spouse, that is something we need to correct. In a world where were told by our pastors that we can say no to sex only for so long before we are sinning. The morning after pill is essential.

  • Lily Johnson

    More than 50% of the time a woman’s body works as its own morning after pill and prevents fertilized eggs from implanting. Are you seriously indicating that those are all people whom have died? If so why isn’t the entire pro life effort focused on correcting that natural function of the woman’s body?

    Within the context of patriarchy, in a world where women are not even in full control of their sex lives, in a world where vaginal intercourse is defined as “real sex” even though most women cannot even orgasm during it, in a world where coercion and rape happen all to often. (I literally don’t know any sexually active woman who hasn’t been coerced.) In a world where husband’s second asks are considered a normal part of marriage and not treated as violence or a perpetuation of rape culture. In a world where having sex with your spouse is seen as a command from God. In a world where pastors preach that a wife has no full right to say no to sex. In a world where we are told “if were not in the mood” we should get in the mood. In a world where were told that if we don’t have to have sex with our spouse, that is something we need to correct. In a world where were told by our pastors that we can say no to sex only for so long before we are sinning. The morning after pill is essential.

  • Abby

    @5.8
    “Birth Control was the only thing I could take for my small ovarian cysts.”

    “Within the context of patriarchy, in a world where women are not even in full control of their sex lives, in a world where vaginal intercourse is defined as “real sex” even though most women cannot even orgasm during it, in a world where coercion and rape happen all to often. (I literally don’t know any sexually active woman who hasn’t been coerced.) In a world where husband’s second asks are considered a normal part of marriage and not treated as violence or a perpetuation of rape culture. In a world where having sex with your spouse is seen as a command from God. In a world where pastors preach that a wife has no full right to say no to sex. In a world where we are told “if were not in the mood” we should get in the mood. In a world where were told that if we don’t have to have sex with our spouse, that is something we need to correct. In a world where were told by our pastors that we can say no to sex only for so long before we are sinning. The morning after pill is essential.”

    I’m confused. Which is it? Your second statement is much stronger and is really the answer as to why you couldn’t answer the question about how much these pills cost. The “morning after” pill is so cheap it is available in vending machines on college campuses. So, it’s not really about “woman’s health.” Is a woman in control of her own body or not? If she is, she can just say ‘no.’ And not kill babies to remedy the consequences of her actions. It takes two to tango.

  • Abby

    @5.8
    “Birth Control was the only thing I could take for my small ovarian cysts.”

    “Within the context of patriarchy, in a world where women are not even in full control of their sex lives, in a world where vaginal intercourse is defined as “real sex” even though most women cannot even orgasm during it, in a world where coercion and rape happen all to often. (I literally don’t know any sexually active woman who hasn’t been coerced.) In a world where husband’s second asks are considered a normal part of marriage and not treated as violence or a perpetuation of rape culture. In a world where having sex with your spouse is seen as a command from God. In a world where pastors preach that a wife has no full right to say no to sex. In a world where we are told “if were not in the mood” we should get in the mood. In a world where were told that if we don’t have to have sex with our spouse, that is something we need to correct. In a world where were told by our pastors that we can say no to sex only for so long before we are sinning. The morning after pill is essential.”

    I’m confused. Which is it? Your second statement is much stronger and is really the answer as to why you couldn’t answer the question about how much these pills cost. The “morning after” pill is so cheap it is available in vending machines on college campuses. So, it’s not really about “woman’s health.” Is a woman in control of her own body or not? If she is, she can just say ‘no.’ And not kill babies to remedy the consequences of her actions. It takes two to tango.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    “Within the context of patriarchy…”

    A sure indication that what follows is mostly just unsupported assertions, strawman arguments, non-sequiters and other mindless babble.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    “Within the context of patriarchy…”

    A sure indication that what follows is mostly just unsupported assertions, strawman arguments, non-sequiters and other mindless babble.

  • Lily Johnson

    “Is a woman in control of her own body or not? If she is, she can just say ‘no.’”

    All I know is that I am a college woman on campus, I have talked to dozens of women on my campus about just saying “no”. I can tell you that for too many of us saying “no” does not even feel possible a lot of the times when someone twice your size is insisting that you go farther physically. I can tell you that half the time we say “no” there is a second ask and so it becomes even harder to navigate the situation. I can tell you that more often than anyone thinks, “no’s” are completely ignored. I can tell you it doesn’t help that just about every marriage book within the complementarian community has a chapter about sex in which it details all the “excuses” a wife will make to not have sex and what should be done about this pattern which can harm a marriage.

    “A sure indication that what follows is mostly just unsupported assertions, strawman arguments, non-sequiters and other mindless babble.”

    This is what I’m talking about. I am measuring patriarchy by actual pain, a communal feeling of lack of control felt by me and my peers (one that my male peers have told me they cannot relate to) and all you have to say about it is that none of it is real because what you have read and heard and assume. My so called “unsupported assertions” are my personal experiences, my “strawman arguments” are the tears and trembles I witness when my peers are brave enough to share private aspects of their lives in order to tell me “I feel your pain and out of control as well,” and my “mindless babble” is my recognition of a more systematic problem that has not made its way to public discourse in a way that addresses the subtle ways we are dominated and controlled and how that makes us feel. But go ahead and trivialize it all before asking for details or more about what we are going through.

    “I’m confused. Which is it? Your second statement is much stronger and is really the answer as to why you couldn’t answer the question about how much these pills cost. The “morning after” pill is so cheap it is available in vending machines on college campuses”

    My birth control would be 40 dollars a month . I know it might be hard to imagine that not every young woman has even 40 dollars to spare every month but between trying to pay for my education and pay for my rent, my pay from my job does not give me enough extra.

    Morning after pills on my campus still cost about 70 dollars. Very few people I know can easily come up with that money in the 3 days when it works.

  • Lily Johnson

    “Is a woman in control of her own body or not? If she is, she can just say ‘no.’”

    All I know is that I am a college woman on campus, I have talked to dozens of women on my campus about just saying “no”. I can tell you that for too many of us saying “no” does not even feel possible a lot of the times when someone twice your size is insisting that you go farther physically. I can tell you that half the time we say “no” there is a second ask and so it becomes even harder to navigate the situation. I can tell you that more often than anyone thinks, “no’s” are completely ignored. I can tell you it doesn’t help that just about every marriage book within the complementarian community has a chapter about sex in which it details all the “excuses” a wife will make to not have sex and what should be done about this pattern which can harm a marriage.

    “A sure indication that what follows is mostly just unsupported assertions, strawman arguments, non-sequiters and other mindless babble.”

    This is what I’m talking about. I am measuring patriarchy by actual pain, a communal feeling of lack of control felt by me and my peers (one that my male peers have told me they cannot relate to) and all you have to say about it is that none of it is real because what you have read and heard and assume. My so called “unsupported assertions” are my personal experiences, my “strawman arguments” are the tears and trembles I witness when my peers are brave enough to share private aspects of their lives in order to tell me “I feel your pain and out of control as well,” and my “mindless babble” is my recognition of a more systematic problem that has not made its way to public discourse in a way that addresses the subtle ways we are dominated and controlled and how that makes us feel. But go ahead and trivialize it all before asking for details or more about what we are going through.

    “I’m confused. Which is it? Your second statement is much stronger and is really the answer as to why you couldn’t answer the question about how much these pills cost. The “morning after” pill is so cheap it is available in vending machines on college campuses”

    My birth control would be 40 dollars a month . I know it might be hard to imagine that not every young woman has even 40 dollars to spare every month but between trying to pay for my education and pay for my rent, my pay from my job does not give me enough extra.

    Morning after pills on my campus still cost about 70 dollars. Very few people I know can easily come up with that money in the 3 days when it works.

  • Kevin

    @Lily Johnson, (4)

    I initially saw your post and took it as some sort of satire. Firstly, let’s just suppose that you needed birth control pills for a legitimate health reason. Never mind that most women who use birth control pills are using them for sex without consequences and to act like a slut. If you are using birth-control pills and aren’t having sex, that would certainly make you the exception, and not the rule. Next, let us further suppose that you really can’t afford $40 a month for birth control. Never mind that you can go to any ER in the country and everyone in the lobby will have a cell phone or even a smart phone. Finally, let us suppose that it really is a life or death circumstance. So you’re really going to die if Obama doesn’t give you these free birth control pills. Do you know that these abortifacient pills kill babies? Why should your life be more valuable than your child’s?

  • Kevin

    @Lily Johnson, (4)

    I initially saw your post and took it as some sort of satire. Firstly, let’s just suppose that you needed birth control pills for a legitimate health reason. Never mind that most women who use birth control pills are using them for sex without consequences and to act like a slut. If you are using birth-control pills and aren’t having sex, that would certainly make you the exception, and not the rule. Next, let us further suppose that you really can’t afford $40 a month for birth control. Never mind that you can go to any ER in the country and everyone in the lobby will have a cell phone or even a smart phone. Finally, let us suppose that it really is a life or death circumstance. So you’re really going to die if Obama doesn’t give you these free birth control pills. Do you know that these abortifacient pills kill babies? Why should your life be more valuable than your child’s?

  • Norman Teigen

    Kevin, your comment is demeaning and shameful. You owe ABby an apology.

  • Norman Teigen

    Kevin, your comment is demeaning and shameful. You owe ABby an apology.

  • Abby

    “. . . saying “no” does not even feel possible . . .” So, you’re saying that saying ‘no’ does not “feel” possible — and you haven’t actually tried it? Because all the boys you and others know are too big and overpowerinng and out of control sexually? What could you do to avoid putting yourself in this situation?

    “I am measuring patriarchy by actual pain, a communal feeling of lack of control felt by me and my peers.” I thought feminism was to be on-your-own-feet and independently in control of self. Is there such a thing as a “helpless feminist?” If the situation is this bad, should someone not report this to proper authorities?

    I think I can save you a little money: from Walgreens, cash price/contraceptive pills $31.99/mo. The morning after pill/$44.99. Less with paying a co-pay. The $70 you quoted sounds like it might be a black-market price. Two large pizzas: $20, two bottles inexpensive wine $20, a movie with popcorn and soda $30.

    After Obamacare kicks in and you have to purchase your own health insurance, fine. If you don’t want to purchase it the IRS is going to charge you $2000 for not being insured. With the cost you will be paying for insurance, you are then going to pay a lot more than the cash price you are now paying for these pills in the future. Unless you find an employer with the kind of coverage you want.

    I feel sympathy for the costs of college education. My own opinion, insurance companies should not have to pay for other people’s sexual activity anywhere or on college campuses. Neither would I expect a Christian employer support and pay for the morning after pill. Or even a secular business that is run by Christians. In fact, I’m radically in favor of these insurers dropping all coverage for these products unless it can be definitively documented to be a true woman’s health issue.

    Here is a story for you if you would like to hear it: http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/tamar

  • Abby

    “. . . saying “no” does not even feel possible . . .” So, you’re saying that saying ‘no’ does not “feel” possible — and you haven’t actually tried it? Because all the boys you and others know are too big and overpowerinng and out of control sexually? What could you do to avoid putting yourself in this situation?

    “I am measuring patriarchy by actual pain, a communal feeling of lack of control felt by me and my peers.” I thought feminism was to be on-your-own-feet and independently in control of self. Is there such a thing as a “helpless feminist?” If the situation is this bad, should someone not report this to proper authorities?

    I think I can save you a little money: from Walgreens, cash price/contraceptive pills $31.99/mo. The morning after pill/$44.99. Less with paying a co-pay. The $70 you quoted sounds like it might be a black-market price. Two large pizzas: $20, two bottles inexpensive wine $20, a movie with popcorn and soda $30.

    After Obamacare kicks in and you have to purchase your own health insurance, fine. If you don’t want to purchase it the IRS is going to charge you $2000 for not being insured. With the cost you will be paying for insurance, you are then going to pay a lot more than the cash price you are now paying for these pills in the future. Unless you find an employer with the kind of coverage you want.

    I feel sympathy for the costs of college education. My own opinion, insurance companies should not have to pay for other people’s sexual activity anywhere or on college campuses. Neither would I expect a Christian employer support and pay for the morning after pill. Or even a secular business that is run by Christians. In fact, I’m radically in favor of these insurers dropping all coverage for these products unless it can be definitively documented to be a true woman’s health issue.

    Here is a story for you if you would like to hear it: http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/tamar

  • Norman Teigen

    Sorry, you owe Lily an apology. Why would you write such mean things?

  • Norman Teigen

    Sorry, you owe Lily an apology. Why would you write such mean things?

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  • Lily Johnson

    “I thought feminism was to be on-your-own-feet and independently in control of self. Is there such a thing as a “helpless feminist?” If the situation is this bad, should someone not report this to proper authorities?”

    You are fundamentally misunderstanding the climate and culture I am speaking to and projecting all your preconceived notions. Which contemporary feminist writers are you even familiar with? I can tell you its not a conglomerate cohesive movement with a single agenda or a leader of any sorts.

    Anyways I am not talking about situations in which a man is attacking us, I am talking about a feeling of being pressured, even when the source is not clear. I am talking about how it is hard to speak because of how we’ve been socialized. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not this is a problem that we face.

    “Because all the boys you and others know are too big and overpowerinng and out of control sexually?”

    Someone does not have to be “out of control” to be intimidating. I am saying there is a collective feeling that WE FEEL intimidated. And that its so common, that to shrug it off as simplistic as silly girls who maybe know “overpowering” guys is nonsense.

    Like I said you don’t have to see beyond the complementarian community to see what I am talking about. No one has said anything in reply to the points I made concerning sex and marriage and its implications on the fact that women still aren’t given enough sexual agency.

    “After Obamacare kicks in and you have to purchase your own health insurance, fine.” When you can’t afford it the government picks up 95% of the tab under Obamacare but ok.

    Also you seem to not understand what I mean when I say I don’t have disposable income……..I can’t believe you find it so hard to imagine that someone doesn’t have an extra 30 dollars every month. Hi I’m privilege I think we’ve met.

    “I’m radically in favor of these insurers dropping all coverage for these products unless it can be definitively documented to be a true woman’s health issue.”

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/11/15/142358413/the-pill-not-just-for-pregnancy-prevention

  • Lily Johnson

    “I thought feminism was to be on-your-own-feet and independently in control of self. Is there such a thing as a “helpless feminist?” If the situation is this bad, should someone not report this to proper authorities?”

    You are fundamentally misunderstanding the climate and culture I am speaking to and projecting all your preconceived notions. Which contemporary feminist writers are you even familiar with? I can tell you its not a conglomerate cohesive movement with a single agenda or a leader of any sorts.

    Anyways I am not talking about situations in which a man is attacking us, I am talking about a feeling of being pressured, even when the source is not clear. I am talking about how it is hard to speak because of how we’ve been socialized. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not this is a problem that we face.

    “Because all the boys you and others know are too big and overpowerinng and out of control sexually?”

    Someone does not have to be “out of control” to be intimidating. I am saying there is a collective feeling that WE FEEL intimidated. And that its so common, that to shrug it off as simplistic as silly girls who maybe know “overpowering” guys is nonsense.

    Like I said you don’t have to see beyond the complementarian community to see what I am talking about. No one has said anything in reply to the points I made concerning sex and marriage and its implications on the fact that women still aren’t given enough sexual agency.

    “After Obamacare kicks in and you have to purchase your own health insurance, fine.” When you can’t afford it the government picks up 95% of the tab under Obamacare but ok.

    Also you seem to not understand what I mean when I say I don’t have disposable income……..I can’t believe you find it so hard to imagine that someone doesn’t have an extra 30 dollars every month. Hi I’m privilege I think we’ve met.

    “I’m radically in favor of these insurers dropping all coverage for these products unless it can be definitively documented to be a true woman’s health issue.”

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/11/15/142358413/the-pill-not-just-for-pregnancy-prevention

  • Lily Johnson

    “So, you’re saying that saying ‘no’ does not “feel” possible — and you haven’t actually tried it? ”

    I’m saying that it becomes hard to say no and find your voice when your voice is constantly ignored. When you say “no” and the response is so often “why not”, “what about later”, “are u sure”, “please” “why arent you up to it” and all anyone has to say is “why are you even in that situation”, yeah somehow it actually effects your voice and whether you feel that it matters. Hard to believe I know -_-………Anyways as I was saying before every book on marriage that I read within complementarianism has a chapter about sex in marriage where the right to say no is not protected absolutely. But instead, there are sections about what is wrong and needs to be “fixed” if you don’t want to have sex. This is a gross trend I also see in the secular world and it is that kind of mentality that I am talking about.

    Random hook up or husband. I am told I do not have an absolute right to say no to sex forever. And that effects my voice.

  • Lily Johnson

    “So, you’re saying that saying ‘no’ does not “feel” possible — and you haven’t actually tried it? ”

    I’m saying that it becomes hard to say no and find your voice when your voice is constantly ignored. When you say “no” and the response is so often “why not”, “what about later”, “are u sure”, “please” “why arent you up to it” and all anyone has to say is “why are you even in that situation”, yeah somehow it actually effects your voice and whether you feel that it matters. Hard to believe I know -_-………Anyways as I was saying before every book on marriage that I read within complementarianism has a chapter about sex in marriage where the right to say no is not protected absolutely. But instead, there are sections about what is wrong and needs to be “fixed” if you don’t want to have sex. This is a gross trend I also see in the secular world and it is that kind of mentality that I am talking about.

    Random hook up or husband. I am told I do not have an absolute right to say no to sex forever. And that effects my voice.

  • Abby

    “I am told I do not have an absolute right to say no to sex forever. And that effects my voice.” This is real baloney.

    “I’m saying that it becomes hard to say no and find your voice when your voice is constantly ignored. When you say “no” and the response is so often “why not”, “what about later”, “are u sure”, “please” “why arent you up to it” and all anyone has to say is “why are you even in that situation”, yeah somehow it actually effects your voice and whether you feel that it matters.”

    “What could you do to avoid putting yourself in this situation?”

  • Abby

    “I am told I do not have an absolute right to say no to sex forever. And that effects my voice.” This is real baloney.

    “I’m saying that it becomes hard to say no and find your voice when your voice is constantly ignored. When you say “no” and the response is so often “why not”, “what about later”, “are u sure”, “please” “why arent you up to it” and all anyone has to say is “why are you even in that situation”, yeah somehow it actually effects your voice and whether you feel that it matters.”

    “What could you do to avoid putting yourself in this situation?”

  • Abby

    I am only hearing a pity party.

  • Abby

    I am only hearing a pity party.

  • Lily Johnson

    Alrighty then. I can’t force you to sympathize. My entire point is that I am not the only one who feels this way. And talking to more and more women I keep getting the response “I thought I was the only one who felt this way” or “I always felt that way but didn’t know how to say it”.

    If you feel I am asking for nothing but pity that is your problem. I am just asking for people to consider something happening beneath the surface. I am asking for social awareness so that we can create a discourse. If you want to write it off as nothing but my own personal pity party thats ok. But I really do feel that women (young women especially) would benefit from talking about this. Your statement “Why can’t you just say no” is exactly the full fledged conversation I want to have. There are many young women who feel out of control of their own bodies because of how we are still socialized. The conversations about birth control as of late refuse to acknowledge this more subtle reality. I want there to be full discourse about it, but its kind of hard when all you have to say about my plea is that its a pity party. Cool.

    All I ask now is that people would at least be open to the idea that I’m not some random loon whose been brainwashed by whatever feminist authors you might have read in college or something. I am speaking to my experience in college and what I gather to be a common unspoken feeling that many young women feel, as is becoming more evident the more I talk to different people.

  • Lily Johnson

    Alrighty then. I can’t force you to sympathize. My entire point is that I am not the only one who feels this way. And talking to more and more women I keep getting the response “I thought I was the only one who felt this way” or “I always felt that way but didn’t know how to say it”.

    If you feel I am asking for nothing but pity that is your problem. I am just asking for people to consider something happening beneath the surface. I am asking for social awareness so that we can create a discourse. If you want to write it off as nothing but my own personal pity party thats ok. But I really do feel that women (young women especially) would benefit from talking about this. Your statement “Why can’t you just say no” is exactly the full fledged conversation I want to have. There are many young women who feel out of control of their own bodies because of how we are still socialized. The conversations about birth control as of late refuse to acknowledge this more subtle reality. I want there to be full discourse about it, but its kind of hard when all you have to say about my plea is that its a pity party. Cool.

    All I ask now is that people would at least be open to the idea that I’m not some random loon whose been brainwashed by whatever feminist authors you might have read in college or something. I am speaking to my experience in college and what I gather to be a common unspoken feeling that many young women feel, as is becoming more evident the more I talk to different people.

  • Abby

    “Your statement “Why can’t you just say no” is exactly the full fledged conversation I want to have. There are many young women who feel out of control of their own bodies because of how we are still socialized.”

    Ok, then. Why can’t you say ‘no?’

    Explain “how we are still socialized.”

  • Abby

    “Your statement “Why can’t you just say no” is exactly the full fledged conversation I want to have. There are many young women who feel out of control of their own bodies because of how we are still socialized.”

    Ok, then. Why can’t you say ‘no?’

    Explain “how we are still socialized.”

  • Lily Johnson

    Like I already said, second asks literally makes saying no seem irrelevant. I do say no, all the time and my no is constantly challenged with questions of why and sometimes even met with anger. I am saying because of that sometimes its hard to find my voice. Have you ever been in a situation, where you felt traumatized but can’t trace the source and can’t say exactly what you want in the face of subtle intimidation?

    My point was that your question over simplifies everything about the issue. As if everyone takes “no” seriously. As if rape culture doesn’t exist. As if women are raised to be as dominant and in control of their bodies as men. It’s ludicrous.

    “how we are still socialized.”

    Dare I begin with women being literally raised and preached to be submissive in relation to men? Gee I wonder what that could possibly have to do with all of this?

  • Lily Johnson

    Like I already said, second asks literally makes saying no seem irrelevant. I do say no, all the time and my no is constantly challenged with questions of why and sometimes even met with anger. I am saying because of that sometimes its hard to find my voice. Have you ever been in a situation, where you felt traumatized but can’t trace the source and can’t say exactly what you want in the face of subtle intimidation?

    My point was that your question over simplifies everything about the issue. As if everyone takes “no” seriously. As if rape culture doesn’t exist. As if women are raised to be as dominant and in control of their bodies as men. It’s ludicrous.

    “how we are still socialized.”

    Dare I begin with women being literally raised and preached to be submissive in relation to men? Gee I wonder what that could possibly have to do with all of this?

  • Abby

    “Someone does not have to be “out of control” to be intimidating. I am saying there is a collective feeling that WE FEEL intimidated.”

    I think this is called “hormones.”

    “Random hook up or husband.” It sounds like you are not interested in having a husband. To have a good husband is to have a very good life and protection against many things in this world. To be a mother and raise children along with your husband is a wonderful blessing which will last for your whole life.

    What year in college are you? What is your major?

    I noticed that your last post was at 5 a.m. in the morning. Isn’t that kind of hard for you for homework, job, and classes?

  • Abby

    “Someone does not have to be “out of control” to be intimidating. I am saying there is a collective feeling that WE FEEL intimidated.”

    I think this is called “hormones.”

    “Random hook up or husband.” It sounds like you are not interested in having a husband. To have a good husband is to have a very good life and protection against many things in this world. To be a mother and raise children along with your husband is a wonderful blessing which will last for your whole life.

    What year in college are you? What is your major?

    I noticed that your last post was at 5 a.m. in the morning. Isn’t that kind of hard for you for homework, job, and classes?

  • Lily Johnson

    “I think this is called “hormones.””

    What…….

    “I noticed that your last post was at 5 a.m. in the morning.”

    I was taking a break from writing. I study English….

  • Lily Johnson

    “I think this is called “hormones.””

    What…….

    “I noticed that your last post was at 5 a.m. in the morning.”

    I was taking a break from writing. I study English….

  • Kevin

    Ever notice how everything Lily Johnson says is about how she’s “feels”? Naturally most Christians really don’t care how the Bible defines rape, but it does indicate in Deuteronomy Chapter 22 that a woman does need to cry out if she is being raped. She can’t just decide later that she was raped based on how she felt she felt as the time. This is why Todd Akin had to use the term “legitimate rape” because there’s a lot of sexual activity that’s called rape that isn’t. Conservatives through him under the bus. They’ll get a limp-wristed timid RINO in his place and complain, and never know why.

  • Kevin

    Ever notice how everything Lily Johnson says is about how she’s “feels”? Naturally most Christians really don’t care how the Bible defines rape, but it does indicate in Deuteronomy Chapter 22 that a woman does need to cry out if she is being raped. She can’t just decide later that she was raped based on how she felt she felt as the time. This is why Todd Akin had to use the term “legitimate rape” because there’s a lot of sexual activity that’s called rape that isn’t. Conservatives through him under the bus. They’ll get a limp-wristed timid RINO in his place and complain, and never know why.

  • Abby

    @25: Good point.

  • Abby

    @25: Good point.

  • Norman Teigen

    Kevin, you continue to embarrass yourself. You are an insensitive bigot, I perceive.

  • Norman Teigen

    Kevin, you continue to embarrass yourself. You are an insensitive bigot, I perceive.

  • Abby

    “. . .in this day and age how anyone could seriously determine that an employer could withhold coverage of an essential part of WOMEN’S HEALTH because of what she MIGHT be doing with it in her free time. . .

    ——- I am told I do not have an absolute right to say no to sex forever. (False. You can totally say no forever. If that is what you want.)

    ——- I am talking about how it is hard to speak because of how we’ve been socialized.

    ——- Dare I begin with women being literally raised and preached to be submissive in relation to men, (I’ve never heard this preaching.)

    ——-. . .saying “no” does not even feel possible a lot of the times. . .

    ——-. . .half the time we say “no” there is a second ask and so it becomes even harder to navigate the situation. . .

    ——-. . .lack of control felt by me and my peers. . .

    ——- Anyways I am not talking about situations in which a man is attacking us, I am talking about a feeling of being pressured, even when the source is not clear.

    ——- Someone does not have to be “out of control” to be intimidating. I am saying there is a collective feeling that WE FEEL intimidated.

    ——- As if everyone takes “no” seriously. As if rape culture doesn’t exist.

    ——- I do say no, all the time and my no is constantly challenged with questions of why and sometimes even met with anger. I am saying because of that sometimes its hard to find my voice.”

    The question will not be answered. “What could you do to avoid putting yourself in this situation?”

    “——- Random hook up or husband. . .

    ——- The morning after pill is essential.”

    This is what we’re paying for, folks.

    Lily, you seem like a bright woman. I don’t know how you can believe the statements you are making. You are trying to convince us you have no control. And that the men have all the control. What kind of men are you seeking? Where are you seeking them? Is it possible to meet better men in better places? A college atmosphere could be difficult. But every choice is yours to make. Where you go, who you see, who you “hook up” with. Every choice is yours to make. There is no “out of control.”

  • Abby

    “. . .in this day and age how anyone could seriously determine that an employer could withhold coverage of an essential part of WOMEN’S HEALTH because of what she MIGHT be doing with it in her free time. . .

    ——- I am told I do not have an absolute right to say no to sex forever. (False. You can totally say no forever. If that is what you want.)

    ——- I am talking about how it is hard to speak because of how we’ve been socialized.

    ——- Dare I begin with women being literally raised and preached to be submissive in relation to men, (I’ve never heard this preaching.)

    ——-. . .saying “no” does not even feel possible a lot of the times. . .

    ——-. . .half the time we say “no” there is a second ask and so it becomes even harder to navigate the situation. . .

    ——-. . .lack of control felt by me and my peers. . .

    ——- Anyways I am not talking about situations in which a man is attacking us, I am talking about a feeling of being pressured, even when the source is not clear.

    ——- Someone does not have to be “out of control” to be intimidating. I am saying there is a collective feeling that WE FEEL intimidated.

    ——- As if everyone takes “no” seriously. As if rape culture doesn’t exist.

    ——- I do say no, all the time and my no is constantly challenged with questions of why and sometimes even met with anger. I am saying because of that sometimes its hard to find my voice.”

    The question will not be answered. “What could you do to avoid putting yourself in this situation?”

    “——- Random hook up or husband. . .

    ——- The morning after pill is essential.”

    This is what we’re paying for, folks.

    Lily, you seem like a bright woman. I don’t know how you can believe the statements you are making. You are trying to convince us you have no control. And that the men have all the control. What kind of men are you seeking? Where are you seeking them? Is it possible to meet better men in better places? A college atmosphere could be difficult. But every choice is yours to make. Where you go, who you see, who you “hook up” with. Every choice is yours to make. There is no “out of control.”

  • Abby

    “——- Random hook up or husband. . .”

    See, it’s not a “rape” situation — it is consensual. The latter is more undesirable that the first.

  • Abby

    “——- Random hook up or husband. . .”

    See, it’s not a “rape” situation — it is consensual. The latter is more undesirable that the first.

  • Abby

    Lily, there is some really good information here for you if you would care to listen to it. 3 messages on sexuality. Definately worth your time. I hope and pray you will:
    http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/sermonlist/236

  • Abby

    Lily, there is some really good information here for you if you would care to listen to it. 3 messages on sexuality. Definately worth your time. I hope and pray you will:
    http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/sermonlist/236

  • Lily Johnson

    “You are trying to convince us you have no control. And that the men have all the control.”

    Systematic inequality does not imply absolutes. I am citing trends which my male peers can’t quite relate to and which my female ones cite as things they feel normally on a daily basis. Ignoring this reality means things will never change. I am not just concerned with my own experiences, but that of all women.

    “Dare I begin with women being literally raised and preached to be submissive in relation to men, (I’ve never heard this preaching.)”

    Sorry I forgot when you sub the words with wives and husbands it magically becomes equality.

    I’ll listen to your sermon, if you read the article I posted about women using birth control for things other than as a contraceptive and at least look up something concerning rape culture since you don’t seem to be familiar with anything related to sociological discourse dealing with it.

    (False. You can totally say no forever. If that is what you want.)
    Cool except its also true the word “no” means absolutely nothing to a lot of people. It is the abundance of how many people that I am concerned with. Leaving where I am won’t change the conditions of where I am.

    Also true, it is preached all too often that sex in marriage is a command from God and that you are sinning if you abstain for “too long”. John Piper, Mark Driscoll, John Macarthur, Tim Challies, Albert Mohler all preach this and their followings are sort of insanely large.

    What I am getting is that you are not familiar with thinking about rape within the context of a complex culture. I am saying a discrepancy exists within contemporary American culture where women are still given less agency and social control over their own bodies and sexuality in comparison to men and that this has vast implications if you dissect it and see what it means for the sex lives of women married and not. If you think I am saying that I have no control and power you are completely misunderstanding.

  • Lily Johnson

    “You are trying to convince us you have no control. And that the men have all the control.”

    Systematic inequality does not imply absolutes. I am citing trends which my male peers can’t quite relate to and which my female ones cite as things they feel normally on a daily basis. Ignoring this reality means things will never change. I am not just concerned with my own experiences, but that of all women.

    “Dare I begin with women being literally raised and preached to be submissive in relation to men, (I’ve never heard this preaching.)”

    Sorry I forgot when you sub the words with wives and husbands it magically becomes equality.

    I’ll listen to your sermon, if you read the article I posted about women using birth control for things other than as a contraceptive and at least look up something concerning rape culture since you don’t seem to be familiar with anything related to sociological discourse dealing with it.

    (False. You can totally say no forever. If that is what you want.)
    Cool except its also true the word “no” means absolutely nothing to a lot of people. It is the abundance of how many people that I am concerned with. Leaving where I am won’t change the conditions of where I am.

    Also true, it is preached all too often that sex in marriage is a command from God and that you are sinning if you abstain for “too long”. John Piper, Mark Driscoll, John Macarthur, Tim Challies, Albert Mohler all preach this and their followings are sort of insanely large.

    What I am getting is that you are not familiar with thinking about rape within the context of a complex culture. I am saying a discrepancy exists within contemporary American culture where women are still given less agency and social control over their own bodies and sexuality in comparison to men and that this has vast implications if you dissect it and see what it means for the sex lives of women married and not. If you think I am saying that I have no control and power you are completely misunderstanding.

  • Abby

    “What I am getting is that you are not familiar with thinking about rape within the context of a complex culture.”

    Painting me with a pretty broad brush for my being a stranger to you. How about this. I was sexually abused as a child many, many times. 100 times, plus more. How is that for being powerless? I know about that. And that was legitimate rape.

    I am still a proponent of marrying a good husband (which I did). I thank God for him everyday. He has given me many things. He gives me peace and security in many ways. When I was very young I absolutely knew the kind of man that I would not let near me. And I was absolutely going to marry a Christian. And I found this out during our dating relationship. Otherwise it would have been over. I was absolutely commited that my future life was going to be different than the way I was raised. Or, I would have remained single and sexless.

    Sex is good in the context of marriage. And I know the difference. It is created by God and given to us. Even He said it was good. Between a man and a wife. That does not mean that I could never say no. My husband greatly respected and honored me.

    I know of and have listened to the men that you listed. NONE of them endorse or sanction sex outside of marriage. NONE of them endorse or sanction the morning after pill.

    “. . . it is preached all too often that sex in marriage is a command from God and that you are sinning if you abstain for “too long”…

    Could you give me book title and page numbers where these guys say the things you said? I have read their websites, books, and listened to many sermons and I have not heard this.

  • Abby

    “What I am getting is that you are not familiar with thinking about rape within the context of a complex culture.”

    Painting me with a pretty broad brush for my being a stranger to you. How about this. I was sexually abused as a child many, many times. 100 times, plus more. How is that for being powerless? I know about that. And that was legitimate rape.

    I am still a proponent of marrying a good husband (which I did). I thank God for him everyday. He has given me many things. He gives me peace and security in many ways. When I was very young I absolutely knew the kind of man that I would not let near me. And I was absolutely going to marry a Christian. And I found this out during our dating relationship. Otherwise it would have been over. I was absolutely commited that my future life was going to be different than the way I was raised. Or, I would have remained single and sexless.

    Sex is good in the context of marriage. And I know the difference. It is created by God and given to us. Even He said it was good. Between a man and a wife. That does not mean that I could never say no. My husband greatly respected and honored me.

    I know of and have listened to the men that you listed. NONE of them endorse or sanction sex outside of marriage. NONE of them endorse or sanction the morning after pill.

    “. . . it is preached all too often that sex in marriage is a command from God and that you are sinning if you abstain for “too long”…

    Could you give me book title and page numbers where these guys say the things you said? I have read their websites, books, and listened to many sermons and I have not heard this.

  • Lily Johnson

    “And that was legitimate rape.”

    My point pretty much…..

  • Lily Johnson

    “And that was legitimate rape.”

    My point pretty much…..

  • Lily Johnson

    John Piper

    http://www.marriagemissions.com/we-have-different-sex-drives/

    –if she says, “I’m too tired for sexual intercourse,” and he is communicating, “It would be really nice right now,” she should give and he should relent. That’s the way it should be. His heart should be, “I’m not going to make you do this, no matter how strong I feel,” and hers should be, “I’m here for you, no matter how tired I am.”

    No is an excuse . He preaches that she should never feel like she is completely against the idea. The fact that he doesn’t rape and force her is somehow holy husbandhood. Bravo. Literally Piper just said being a great husband is being like “im not going to force you to have sex” (how commendable) and being a great wife is never wanting to say no. The existence of this mentality is what I am talking about.

  • Lily Johnson

    John Piper

    http://www.marriagemissions.com/we-have-different-sex-drives/

    –if she says, “I’m too tired for sexual intercourse,” and he is communicating, “It would be really nice right now,” she should give and he should relent. That’s the way it should be. His heart should be, “I’m not going to make you do this, no matter how strong I feel,” and hers should be, “I’m here for you, no matter how tired I am.”

    No is an excuse . He preaches that she should never feel like she is completely against the idea. The fact that he doesn’t rape and force her is somehow holy husbandhood. Bravo. Literally Piper just said being a great husband is being like “im not going to force you to have sex” (how commendable) and being a great wife is never wanting to say no. The existence of this mentality is what I am talking about.

  • Abby

    Lily, do you believe that the Bible is without error and is the full authoritative Word of God? John Piper, I believe is preaching from this text in 1 Corinthians 7: 1-9 . . . ff, which says (and this is God Himself speaking):

    “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer, but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” He goes on to say . . . “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

    Do you hate men for some reason? I could have reason to. But I always knew that what happened to me was evil and not from God. I was able to put a wall between the evil in my life and God. I knew that God was absolutely good. That He desired good for me. I definately had questions for Him. And the answers were a long time in coming sometimes. But He was with me every step of the way and has blessed me in ways that I could never have orchestrated for myself or even imagined would be given me.

    If you don’t belong to a church, I would plead with you to find one. And I will boldly say, try to find a Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod one. If you go there and you do not understand anything — keep going. The Holy Spirit will teach you as your heart is ready. Talk to the pastor. Join his beginning class which will teach you. If you have to go alone and it is uncomfortable, go anyway. And stay close to the church. Jesus is there. In Word and Sacraments. I tell you the truth — God will help you. He loves you more than you can imagine right now. And even to our death I don’t believe we humans can grasp really how much He loves us. But the evidence is at His Cross.

    We are not going to be without conflict in this world. The devil still battles for our soul with his tricks and deception until we die. But we are secure in Christ. You know the security I said that my husband gave me? That is nothing compared to the security that God gives us. He is our ultimate Husband. And He has fought for us and won the battle. Don’t give up Jesus Christ for any reason. It’s not worth it.

  • Abby

    Lily, do you believe that the Bible is without error and is the full authoritative Word of God? John Piper, I believe is preaching from this text in 1 Corinthians 7: 1-9 . . . ff, which says (and this is God Himself speaking):

    “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer, but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” He goes on to say . . . “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

    Do you hate men for some reason? I could have reason to. But I always knew that what happened to me was evil and not from God. I was able to put a wall between the evil in my life and God. I knew that God was absolutely good. That He desired good for me. I definately had questions for Him. And the answers were a long time in coming sometimes. But He was with me every step of the way and has blessed me in ways that I could never have orchestrated for myself or even imagined would be given me.

    If you don’t belong to a church, I would plead with you to find one. And I will boldly say, try to find a Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod one. If you go there and you do not understand anything — keep going. The Holy Spirit will teach you as your heart is ready. Talk to the pastor. Join his beginning class which will teach you. If you have to go alone and it is uncomfortable, go anyway. And stay close to the church. Jesus is there. In Word and Sacraments. I tell you the truth — God will help you. He loves you more than you can imagine right now. And even to our death I don’t believe we humans can grasp really how much He loves us. But the evidence is at His Cross.

    We are not going to be without conflict in this world. The devil still battles for our soul with his tricks and deception until we die. But we are secure in Christ. You know the security I said that my husband gave me? That is nothing compared to the security that God gives us. He is our ultimate Husband. And He has fought for us and won the battle. Don’t give up Jesus Christ for any reason. It’s not worth it.

  • Lily Johnson

    “Do you hate men for some reason?”

    It’s like I’m speaking a different language o.o

    “Lily, do you believe that the Bible is without error and is the full authoritative Word of God?”

    No but that does not mean what I’m saying should be seen as completely invalid. So the only way you can defend John Piper’s comments, and the fact that it actually does undermine a woman’s ability to say no or think that she even can without sinning is “oh well Corinthians”. Uh…….

    I’m trying to argue a specific point about rape culture and the various ways “no” is undermined. I just said how John Piper has done so and you have nothing to say about that point specifically. Quoting the Bible does not tell me how his specific words don’t undermine the word no within the context of sex and culture….That was the point I was making.

    I made a logical point that I think should be addressed , and all you have to say is a quote from the Bible and instruction for me to go to Church? How does that negate the point I made?

    1. I believe no is undermined and that point should be discussed when talking about the birth control mandate because it is ignored through out the entire discourse on this issue for the most part. (On both sides mind you)

    2. I was able to demonstrate that it goes beyond my personal experience by quoting John Piper and what he preaches.

    You basically have just said “well saying a wife shouldn’t say no to her husband is fine because Corinthians”.

    It does factually take agency away from “no.” So you either have to argue that’s true but its okay because the Bible says so. Or refute my point if you really want to say that my other points make no sense.

  • Lily Johnson

    “Do you hate men for some reason?”

    It’s like I’m speaking a different language o.o

    “Lily, do you believe that the Bible is without error and is the full authoritative Word of God?”

    No but that does not mean what I’m saying should be seen as completely invalid. So the only way you can defend John Piper’s comments, and the fact that it actually does undermine a woman’s ability to say no or think that she even can without sinning is “oh well Corinthians”. Uh…….

    I’m trying to argue a specific point about rape culture and the various ways “no” is undermined. I just said how John Piper has done so and you have nothing to say about that point specifically. Quoting the Bible does not tell me how his specific words don’t undermine the word no within the context of sex and culture….That was the point I was making.

    I made a logical point that I think should be addressed , and all you have to say is a quote from the Bible and instruction for me to go to Church? How does that negate the point I made?

    1. I believe no is undermined and that point should be discussed when talking about the birth control mandate because it is ignored through out the entire discourse on this issue for the most part. (On both sides mind you)

    2. I was able to demonstrate that it goes beyond my personal experience by quoting John Piper and what he preaches.

    You basically have just said “well saying a wife shouldn’t say no to her husband is fine because Corinthians”.

    It does factually take agency away from “no.” So you either have to argue that’s true but its okay because the Bible says so. Or refute my point if you really want to say that my other points make no sense.

  • Abby

    You are correct. We are not understanding each other. This is my take. You refuse to keep yourself out of situations that will put you in a compromising position with a man who is overpowering you sexually. You believe us (the taxpayers) need to fund contraceptives and the morning after pill so that you don’t have to suffer the consequences of the conception of a baby. Even though you “try” to say “no” the man will not listen to you. So you blame the men, rape, and now the preachers — WHO are talking to a man and a wife from the context of the Word of God — which you don’t believe. You don’t want a husband it seems. You want free contraceptives and the morning after pill — because you cannot find a place to be safe from sexually imposing men. Why don’t you figure out how to get men trained in how they should behave when they are with women? Where is this going to come from?

    There is true rape. And the offenders need to be prosecuted. My best friend in high school was gang-raped. She became pregnant. The men were caught and prosecuted. She had the baby not an abortion. A beautiful baby boy. She gave the baby up for adoption. She was a very brave girl. She did not go around feeling sorry for herself. She went to college. Attained actually several degrees. The University approached her to be a professor instead of a student. She has been married for many years and is doing very well.

    I believe you do not want real answers. You want to talk in circles. And you want everyone to pay for yours and others sexual impropriety. If you can’t get the man to hear “no” — then you need to move out of the situation. You are a grown woman — not a child.

    The church will win on their side of the argument that the morning after pill will not be supplied or paid for by them. It has already started.

  • Abby

    You are correct. We are not understanding each other. This is my take. You refuse to keep yourself out of situations that will put you in a compromising position with a man who is overpowering you sexually. You believe us (the taxpayers) need to fund contraceptives and the morning after pill so that you don’t have to suffer the consequences of the conception of a baby. Even though you “try” to say “no” the man will not listen to you. So you blame the men, rape, and now the preachers — WHO are talking to a man and a wife from the context of the Word of God — which you don’t believe. You don’t want a husband it seems. You want free contraceptives and the morning after pill — because you cannot find a place to be safe from sexually imposing men. Why don’t you figure out how to get men trained in how they should behave when they are with women? Where is this going to come from?

    There is true rape. And the offenders need to be prosecuted. My best friend in high school was gang-raped. She became pregnant. The men were caught and prosecuted. She had the baby not an abortion. A beautiful baby boy. She gave the baby up for adoption. She was a very brave girl. She did not go around feeling sorry for herself. She went to college. Attained actually several degrees. The University approached her to be a professor instead of a student. She has been married for many years and is doing very well.

    I believe you do not want real answers. You want to talk in circles. And you want everyone to pay for yours and others sexual impropriety. If you can’t get the man to hear “no” — then you need to move out of the situation. You are a grown woman — not a child.

    The church will win on their side of the argument that the morning after pill will not be supplied or paid for by them. It has already started.

  • Norman Teigen

    Several of the comments here come across as hateful and hypocritical. Abby, your comments are unseemly and reflect the worst of Christian intolerance. I hope that you will change your ways in the new year.

    The responsibility for these intolerant comments lies with Veith himself. He makes it possible for people to write what they do because of the way that he phrases his listings. This is unworthy of a responsible educator. I hope, Professor Veith, that you will see the intolerance that you promote and do a better job in 2013.

    You are not the only responsible church leader to promote misunderstanding. I hope that you will modify your comments or at least not fan the flames of intolerance and hatred. You shape opinion and you have a moral obligation to do so in a responsible, Christian way.

    He that hath ears to ear, let him hear.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Lutheran Synod

  • Norman Teigen

    Several of the comments here come across as hateful and hypocritical. Abby, your comments are unseemly and reflect the worst of Christian intolerance. I hope that you will change your ways in the new year.

    The responsibility for these intolerant comments lies with Veith himself. He makes it possible for people to write what they do because of the way that he phrases his listings. This is unworthy of a responsible educator. I hope, Professor Veith, that you will see the intolerance that you promote and do a better job in 2013.

    You are not the only responsible church leader to promote misunderstanding. I hope that you will modify your comments or at least not fan the flames of intolerance and hatred. You shape opinion and you have a moral obligation to do so in a responsible, Christian way.

    He that hath ears to ear, let him hear.

    Norman Teigen, Layman
    Evangelical Lutheran Synod

  • Abby

    Mr Teigen @38: IF I am guilty of Christian intolerance I would be most sorry for that. And I hope that Dr. Veith would edit my words and delete anything that is wrongly said. I truly hope he will. If I was too harsh, I apologize for that.

    My blood boils at the murder of children. And I HATE who is behind it: http://www.russellmoore.com/2012/12/14/school-shootings-and-spiritual-warfare/

    I know that I am not intolerant of sinners. I am one and live among them. I have watched girls go down this path such as Lily is on. They refuse to listen to the truth but want everyone to feel sorry for them for the consequences they find themselves in. Jesus has compassion and mercy, if you repent and come to Him.

    I do not run away from them, rather I stay by them, show love anyway I can, and keep trying to encourage them and to tell them of Christ’s love for them. My youngest sister died at age 48 only 2 years ago. Her lifestyle attributed to it. Did I abandon her? No. And she asked me an important question about God’s forgiveness only a week before she died and I was able to give her an answer and assure her of it. My next youngest sister is in the process of dying. Also attributed to her lifestyle. Have I abandoned her? No. I talk to her daily to encourage and strengthen her faith. But years ago, neither sister would talk or listen to me. But now they are. I believe that they come to me now because I did tell them the truth and they know that. They were in the “far country.” And so you wait for them to come home. And welcome them as people for whom Christ died.

    I gave Lily things to listen to that will help her faith and situation if she would like to pay attention to them. Things that are said much better than I can say them. I tried to give her direction toward better information (such as finding a church and a good pastor) if she is truly seeking answers. I definately do not hate her. So, I do not understand how I am being intolerant other than I do not agree with her view and position and I told her why I don’t. If that is wrong, I do not know how. If you could tell me, by being more specific in naming my points of error, I would appreciate it. From what I have read of your comments, it sounds like you agree with her position. If you cannot tell me specifically how I am wrong then I will assume that I am not wrong.

    People on the “left-side” of this argument can be just as hypocritical and intolerant as anyone else. And as unforgiving and unmerciful. And again I say, I am not unforgiving and unmerciful.

  • Abby

    Mr Teigen @38: IF I am guilty of Christian intolerance I would be most sorry for that. And I hope that Dr. Veith would edit my words and delete anything that is wrongly said. I truly hope he will. If I was too harsh, I apologize for that.

    My blood boils at the murder of children. And I HATE who is behind it: http://www.russellmoore.com/2012/12/14/school-shootings-and-spiritual-warfare/

    I know that I am not intolerant of sinners. I am one and live among them. I have watched girls go down this path such as Lily is on. They refuse to listen to the truth but want everyone to feel sorry for them for the consequences they find themselves in. Jesus has compassion and mercy, if you repent and come to Him.

    I do not run away from them, rather I stay by them, show love anyway I can, and keep trying to encourage them and to tell them of Christ’s love for them. My youngest sister died at age 48 only 2 years ago. Her lifestyle attributed to it. Did I abandon her? No. And she asked me an important question about God’s forgiveness only a week before she died and I was able to give her an answer and assure her of it. My next youngest sister is in the process of dying. Also attributed to her lifestyle. Have I abandoned her? No. I talk to her daily to encourage and strengthen her faith. But years ago, neither sister would talk or listen to me. But now they are. I believe that they come to me now because I did tell them the truth and they know that. They were in the “far country.” And so you wait for them to come home. And welcome them as people for whom Christ died.

    I gave Lily things to listen to that will help her faith and situation if she would like to pay attention to them. Things that are said much better than I can say them. I tried to give her direction toward better information (such as finding a church and a good pastor) if she is truly seeking answers. I definately do not hate her. So, I do not understand how I am being intolerant other than I do not agree with her view and position and I told her why I don’t. If that is wrong, I do not know how. If you could tell me, by being more specific in naming my points of error, I would appreciate it. From what I have read of your comments, it sounds like you agree with her position. If you cannot tell me specifically how I am wrong then I will assume that I am not wrong.

    People on the “left-side” of this argument can be just as hypocritical and intolerant as anyone else. And as unforgiving and unmerciful. And again I say, I am not unforgiving and unmerciful.

  • Lily Johnson

    How many different ways can I say the same thing over and over. I am speaking for a culture that still exists regardless of what I personally do. I don’t feel like telling you about my personal life and yet you assume all these things. You assume I’m sexually active, you assume I never want to get married. You assume I don’t believe in God and you assume that I am literally saying I want you to pay for my birth control. My personal decisions do not change the course and prevalence of rape culture. It’s existence is what needs to be recognized in this debate.

    I could explain how it works in college life, within the complementarian community or even narrate how I’ve experienced it and you still will I am speaking to something that doesn’t exist.

    “There is true rape. And the offenders need to be prosecuted. ”
    So the only thing we need to fix are the sexual inequalities which can be persecuted? Something does not have to be “true rape” to be wrong and problematic for the equality and sexual agency of women.
    I am not talking about throwing men in jail and accusing everyone of rape. I am talking about addressing a systematic problem which is REAL in which “no” is constantly undermined. Sometimes subtlety. I am simply saying this MATTERS and it completely goes beyond my personal life.

  • Lily Johnson

    How many different ways can I say the same thing over and over. I am speaking for a culture that still exists regardless of what I personally do. I don’t feel like telling you about my personal life and yet you assume all these things. You assume I’m sexually active, you assume I never want to get married. You assume I don’t believe in God and you assume that I am literally saying I want you to pay for my birth control. My personal decisions do not change the course and prevalence of rape culture. It’s existence is what needs to be recognized in this debate.

    I could explain how it works in college life, within the complementarian community or even narrate how I’ve experienced it and you still will I am speaking to something that doesn’t exist.

    “There is true rape. And the offenders need to be prosecuted. ”
    So the only thing we need to fix are the sexual inequalities which can be persecuted? Something does not have to be “true rape” to be wrong and problematic for the equality and sexual agency of women.
    I am not talking about throwing men in jail and accusing everyone of rape. I am talking about addressing a systematic problem which is REAL in which “no” is constantly undermined. Sometimes subtlety. I am simply saying this MATTERS and it completely goes beyond my personal life.

  • Lily Johnson

    ” If you can’t get the man to hear “no” — then you need to move out of the situation. You are a grown woman — not a child.”

    …………………………….
    ………………………………………………..

    The point is people should not be subject to that even once! And everyone’s absolute refusal to address the problem and place every level of responsibility socially on women is absurd. When I leave the situation, it still exists for everyone else and that man will probably do that to someone else. I AM TALKING ABOUT CULTURE and the way in which strong cultural influences such as Piper and his Churches contribute to rape culture without realizing it. I am simply trying to point out that for instance, what many see as “ideal marriage” often undermines it. You still haven’t refuted my point about Piper’s comments…….

    So please stop pretending you know anything about my personal life. Im trying to tackle something bigger believe it or not.

  • Lily Johnson

    ” If you can’t get the man to hear “no” — then you need to move out of the situation. You are a grown woman — not a child.”

    …………………………….
    ………………………………………………..

    The point is people should not be subject to that even once! And everyone’s absolute refusal to address the problem and place every level of responsibility socially on women is absurd. When I leave the situation, it still exists for everyone else and that man will probably do that to someone else. I AM TALKING ABOUT CULTURE and the way in which strong cultural influences such as Piper and his Churches contribute to rape culture without realizing it. I am simply trying to point out that for instance, what many see as “ideal marriage” often undermines it. You still haven’t refuted my point about Piper’s comments…….

    So please stop pretending you know anything about my personal life. Im trying to tackle something bigger believe it or not.

  • Abby

    “. . .culture that still exists. . .” Always has, always will.

    ““Lily, do you believe that the Bible is without error and is the full authoritative Word of God?”

    No but that does not mean what I’m saying should be seen as completely invalid.”

    “. . .how to get men trained in how they should behave when they are with women? Where is this going to come from?’

  • Abby

    “. . .culture that still exists. . .” Always has, always will.

    ““Lily, do you believe that the Bible is without error and is the full authoritative Word of God?”

    No but that does not mean what I’m saying should be seen as completely invalid.”

    “. . .how to get men trained in how they should behave when they are with women? Where is this going to come from?’

  • Abby

    ” . . .Piper and his Churches contribute to rape culture without realizing . . .”

    The men you are describing are not listening to Piper and “his” churches.

    I am not defending or condemning John Piper and what he teaches. He is teaching Christians in his church, and he is talking to a man and a woman who are husband and wife. He is teaching what the Word of God says.

  • Abby

    ” . . .Piper and his Churches contribute to rape culture without realizing . . .”

    The men you are describing are not listening to Piper and “his” churches.

    I am not defending or condemning John Piper and what he teaches. He is teaching Christians in his church, and he is talking to a man and a woman who are husband and wife. He is teaching what the Word of God says.

  • Abby

    “. . .stop pretending you know anything about my personal life. . .”

    I know nothing of your personal life. I have only quoted the statements you have given here.

  • Abby

    “. . .stop pretending you know anything about my personal life. . .”

    I know nothing of your personal life. I have only quoted the statements you have given here.

  • Lily Johnson

    .how to get men trained in how they should behave when they are with women? Where is this going to come from?’”

    Anywhere and everywhere but its an absolute impossibility if people refuse to admit that changing men’s attitudes is even possible. So spreading the Gospel and changing people’s lives that way is possible but not changing rape culture?

    “The men you are describing are not listening to Piper and “his” churches.”

    My point is even if they join a complementarian Church they still would be supporting rape culture and that is a problem in that world as much as the secular. Ala there’s hardly discourse and I am trying to create some.

    “I am not defending or condemning John Piper and what he teaches. He is teaching Christians in his church, and he is talking to a man and a woman who are husband and wife. He is teaching what the Word of God says.”

    How do his statements NOT undermine “no”? You refuse to answer me that. Citing their source from the Bible doesn’t change their function…….

  • Lily Johnson

    .how to get men trained in how they should behave when they are with women? Where is this going to come from?’”

    Anywhere and everywhere but its an absolute impossibility if people refuse to admit that changing men’s attitudes is even possible. So spreading the Gospel and changing people’s lives that way is possible but not changing rape culture?

    “The men you are describing are not listening to Piper and “his” churches.”

    My point is even if they join a complementarian Church they still would be supporting rape culture and that is a problem in that world as much as the secular. Ala there’s hardly discourse and I am trying to create some.

    “I am not defending or condemning John Piper and what he teaches. He is teaching Christians in his church, and he is talking to a man and a woman who are husband and wife. He is teaching what the Word of God says.”

    How do his statements NOT undermine “no”? You refuse to answer me that. Citing their source from the Bible doesn’t change their function…….

  • Lily Johnson

    “. . .culture that still exists. . .” Always has, always will.”

    No culture has always existed nor will always exist.

  • Lily Johnson

    “. . .culture that still exists. . .” Always has, always will.”

    No culture has always existed nor will always exist.

  • Abby

    “. . . you assume that I am literally saying I want you to pay for my birth control. . .”

    “I think its good the men in power got checked by Obama when so much is on the line.”

    “When you can’t afford it the government picks up 95% of the tab under Obamacare…”

    ———————-

    “How do his statements NOT undermine “no”?”

    “1 Corinthians 7: 1-9 . . . ff, which says (and this is God Himself speaking):

    “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer, but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” He goes on to say . . . “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

    Sorry, Lily. I can’t keep going in circles anymore. God bless you.

  • Abby

    “. . . you assume that I am literally saying I want you to pay for my birth control. . .”

    “I think its good the men in power got checked by Obama when so much is on the line.”

    “When you can’t afford it the government picks up 95% of the tab under Obamacare…”

    ———————-

    “How do his statements NOT undermine “no”?”

    “1 Corinthians 7: 1-9 . . . ff, which says (and this is God Himself speaking):

    “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer, but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” He goes on to say . . . “To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.”

    Sorry, Lily. I can’t keep going in circles anymore. God bless you.

  • Abby

    “No culture has always existed nor will always exist.”

    This “culture” will — it is called sin. Until Jesus returns.

  • Abby

    “No culture has always existed nor will always exist.”

    This “culture” will — it is called sin. Until Jesus returns.

  • Lily Johnson

    How does the fact that the Bible supports his statements mean they DONT undermine no? You are not answering that basic question which is the root of my point. Your not going in circles because you refuse to answer that question.

    Those passages you are citing do not answer that question they only support Piper’s statements….

    How does that NOT UNDERMINE NO?

  • Lily Johnson

    How does the fact that the Bible supports his statements mean they DONT undermine no? You are not answering that basic question which is the root of my point. Your not going in circles because you refuse to answer that question.

    Those passages you are citing do not answer that question they only support Piper’s statements….

    How does that NOT UNDERMINE NO?

  • Lily Johnson

    How does telling women it is their duty to not say no NOT UNDERMINE NO?

  • Lily Johnson

    How does telling women it is their duty to not say no NOT UNDERMINE NO?

  • Norman Teigen

    Veith is perpetuating a lie. There is no ‘Abortifacient Mandate.’

  • Norman Teigen

    Veith is perpetuating a lie. There is no ‘Abortifacient Mandate.’

  • Abby

    @51:

    “Sebelius first issued the rule in January. As part of the Affordable Care Act, or “Obamacare,” she ruled that employers must cover contraception, sterilization and some abortifacient drugs in their health care insurance for employees.”

  • Abby

    @51:

    “Sebelius first issued the rule in January. As part of the Affordable Care Act, or “Obamacare,” she ruled that employers must cover contraception, sterilization and some abortifacient drugs in their health care insurance for employees.”

  • Abby

    @50

    John Piper is not propagating a “culture” of deafness to the word “no” by women in regards to sex outside of marriage. In fact, his church teaching would be just the opposite.

  • Abby

    @50

    John Piper is not propagating a “culture” of deafness to the word “no” by women in regards to sex outside of marriage. In fact, his church teaching would be just the opposite.

  • Lily Johnson

    Why do you think my statements about “no” only apply to sex outside of marriage? That is my entire point! He is a proponent of rape culture within marriage, and somehow people think its okay that “no” would be given less agency than in sex outside of marriage. I am saying that not even women who are married are free from it therefore it is something that needs to be urgently discussed.

  • Lily Johnson

    Why do you think my statements about “no” only apply to sex outside of marriage? That is my entire point! He is a proponent of rape culture within marriage, and somehow people think its okay that “no” would be given less agency than in sex outside of marriage. I am saying that not even women who are married are free from it therefore it is something that needs to be urgently discussed.

  • Lily Johnson

    “John Piper is not propagating a “culture” of deafness to the word “no” by women in regards to sex outside of marriage.”

    Right, just sex within it.

  • Lily Johnson

    “John Piper is not propagating a “culture” of deafness to the word “no” by women in regards to sex outside of marriage.”

    Right, just sex within it.

  • Abby
  • Abby
  • Abby

    @51 Rev Matthew Harrison, President of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod on the HHS Mandate:

  • Abby

    @51 Rev Matthew Harrison, President of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod on the HHS Mandate:

  • Paul Reed

    Lily Johnson, (12) wrote: “just about every marriage book within the complementarian community has a chapter about sex in which it details all the “excuses” a wife will make to not have sex and what should be done about this pattern which can harm a marriage.”

    The Bible says that you do in fact have this obligation to your husband (and he to you as well). See 1 Corinthians 7. But I wouldn’t get hung up about it. The Bible has a lot of crazy stuff in it: Jesus being the only way; sodomy being wrong; Jesus raising from the dead; don’t murder people even if it gives one a more convenient lifestyle.

  • Paul Reed

    Lily Johnson, (12) wrote: “just about every marriage book within the complementarian community has a chapter about sex in which it details all the “excuses” a wife will make to not have sex and what should be done about this pattern which can harm a marriage.”

    The Bible says that you do in fact have this obligation to your husband (and he to you as well). See 1 Corinthians 7. But I wouldn’t get hung up about it. The Bible has a lot of crazy stuff in it: Jesus being the only way; sodomy being wrong; Jesus raising from the dead; don’t murder people even if it gives one a more convenient lifestyle.

  • Lily Johnson

    “you do in fact have this obligation to your husband”

    So you all admit that it does undermine no? I want someone to just clarify and stop beating around the bush.

    It undermines no but its ok because its marriage and thats what the Bible says am I correct? No is given less agency in marriage and that is fine. Correct?

    Were I to be married I would have a sexual obligation to my husband and saying “no” too much would mean I am sinnig correct? That Abby is how I define rape culture, and unlike you I don’t create different rules surrounding it when the couple is married.

  • Lily Johnson

    “you do in fact have this obligation to your husband”

    So you all admit that it does undermine no? I want someone to just clarify and stop beating around the bush.

    It undermines no but its ok because its marriage and thats what the Bible says am I correct? No is given less agency in marriage and that is fine. Correct?

    Were I to be married I would have a sexual obligation to my husband and saying “no” too much would mean I am sinnig correct? That Abby is how I define rape culture, and unlike you I don’t create different rules surrounding it when the couple is married.

  • Lily Johnson

    My original point was simply this. In a world where women are told that their “no” is less important than other things (yes even married women) it is important to note this fact when having the birth control debate. Since it is still viewed that women have sexual obligations to others, this fact should be noted when talking about birth control mandates. The fact that you only think it applies to husbands and wives doesn’t make it go away. Those women still can get pregnant, and not all of them can afford birth control.

  • Lily Johnson

    My original point was simply this. In a world where women are told that their “no” is less important than other things (yes even married women) it is important to note this fact when having the birth control debate. Since it is still viewed that women have sexual obligations to others, this fact should be noted when talking about birth control mandates. The fact that you only think it applies to husbands and wives doesn’t make it go away. Those women still can get pregnant, and not all of them can afford birth control.

  • Lily Johnson

    That disgusting reality plus what is stated below are the realities that I am talking about. This is what I am speaking to. So that’s why it was annoying as hell when you thought the solution to my problem is taking myself out of a situation. This is a systematic issue that can still be found within our laws, and how marriage is preached to the masses.

    “30 states still have some exemptions from prosecution for rape, e.g. when the husband does not need to use force because the wife is most vulnerable (temporarily or permanently, physically or mentally legally unable to consent)! Such marital privileges are also extended to unmarried cohabitants who sexually attack their partners in CT, DE, IA, MN & WV,”

  • Lily Johnson

    That disgusting reality plus what is stated below are the realities that I am talking about. This is what I am speaking to. So that’s why it was annoying as hell when you thought the solution to my problem is taking myself out of a situation. This is a systematic issue that can still be found within our laws, and how marriage is preached to the masses.

    “30 states still have some exemptions from prosecution for rape, e.g. when the husband does not need to use force because the wife is most vulnerable (temporarily or permanently, physically or mentally legally unable to consent)! Such marital privileges are also extended to unmarried cohabitants who sexually attack their partners in CT, DE, IA, MN & WV,”

  • DonS

    Getting back to the original post, and ignoring some of the above discussion, the conflict among the circuit courts is what will bring this issue, ultimately, to the Supreme Court this term. In the meantime, the regulations should be stayed at least with respect to these specific plaintiffs so that they do not accrue unreasonable daily fines for pursuing protection of their Constitutional rights.

  • DonS

    Getting back to the original post, and ignoring some of the above discussion, the conflict among the circuit courts is what will bring this issue, ultimately, to the Supreme Court this term. In the meantime, the regulations should be stayed at least with respect to these specific plaintiffs so that they do not accrue unreasonable daily fines for pursuing protection of their Constitutional rights.

  • Abby

    Don @62 I truly apologize. Temporary insanity.

  • Abby

    Don @62 I truly apologize. Temporary insanity.

  • DonS

    Abby @ 63, I was not referring to anyone in particular, just that I recognized that the discussion had gotten heated and I was not involving myself in that side discussion, but just responding to the original post. Mostly because I hadn’t read the comments in any detail :-)

    Happy New Year!

  • DonS

    Abby @ 63, I was not referring to anyone in particular, just that I recognized that the discussion had gotten heated and I was not involving myself in that side discussion, but just responding to the original post. Mostly because I hadn’t read the comments in any detail :-)

    Happy New Year!

  • Traveled the path

    Lily Johnson,

    My wife took Metformin for her PCOS. You can, too. It is frequently prescribed for what you have, as is The Pill. Metformin is a milder drug than the Pill when you look at long term side effects. The Pill is widely recognized as causing (usually mild) weight gain. My wife lost the weight she gained with PCOS. Besides regulating cycles, Metformin also reduces the risk of miscarraige and other unpleasant surprises of PCOS. It is also one of the cheapest generics around and has been used in herbal form for thousands of years.

  • Traveled the path

    Lily Johnson,

    My wife took Metformin for her PCOS. You can, too. It is frequently prescribed for what you have, as is The Pill. Metformin is a milder drug than the Pill when you look at long term side effects. The Pill is widely recognized as causing (usually mild) weight gain. My wife lost the weight she gained with PCOS. Besides regulating cycles, Metformin also reduces the risk of miscarraige and other unpleasant surprises of PCOS. It is also one of the cheapest generics around and has been used in herbal form for thousands of years.

  • Lily Johnson

    What I have? What are you talking about?


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