Independence for Scotland?

Scotland is gearing up for a referendum, to be held in the Fall of 2014, that could lead to secession from Great Britain.  The prospects for voters approving independence are, according to polls, quite good.  The British Prime Minister David Cameron is no Lincoln.  Cameron has said the United Kingdom would abide by the vote (though only England and Wales would be left in the union that was once the “United Kingdom”).   If Scotland leaves, the new nation would take with them the priceless North Sea oil fields, though Scotland still wants to use the British pound for its currency, rather than join the Eurozone.

See the op-ed piece by Alex Salmond, the first minister of Scotland:  Why an independent Scotland deserves U.S. support – The Washington Post.

I thought we were in the age of globalism, of national unions, of world government!

William Wallace and Robert the Bruce would be glad.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • SKPeterson

    Wait! I keep hearing secession is EVIL! We need to bomb those Scots back into submission. For the Queen! For EnglandGreat Britain! Because We Can!

  • SKPeterson

    Wait! I keep hearing secession is EVIL! We need to bomb those Scots back into submission. For the Queen! For EnglandGreat Britain! Because We Can!

  • SKPeterson

    fill in the blank above. You have the right to self-determination unless it happens to involve, you know, self-determination.

  • SKPeterson

    fill in the blank above. You have the right to self-determination unless it happens to involve, you know, self-determination.

  • GJG

    England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be the remaining UK

  • GJG

    England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be the remaining UK

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    Actually Scotland should properly be in a union with Norway. Well, Shetland and the Orkneys, anyway.

  • http://www.brandywinebooks.net Lars Walker

    Actually Scotland should properly be in a union with Norway. Well, Shetland and the Orkneys, anyway.

  • Cincinnatus

    I approve of this, though the SNP platform has always struck me as a bit kooky (among their priorities are nuclear disarmament and a massive welfare state). I’m not particularly opposed to nuclear disarmament or a massive welfare state (if that’s what they want), but I’ve never quite understood the connection between national determination and the SNP’s assortment of social democratic policy aims.

    In the meantime, I wonder how most Americans would feel about a valid comparison being made between Lincoln/the Yanks and the list of brutal English monarchs who sought to conquer the other denizens of the British Isles in the name of a “more perfect union.”

  • Cincinnatus

    I approve of this, though the SNP platform has always struck me as a bit kooky (among their priorities are nuclear disarmament and a massive welfare state). I’m not particularly opposed to nuclear disarmament or a massive welfare state (if that’s what they want), but I’ve never quite understood the connection between national determination and the SNP’s assortment of social democratic policy aims.

    In the meantime, I wonder how most Americans would feel about a valid comparison being made between Lincoln/the Yanks and the list of brutal English monarchs who sought to conquer the other denizens of the British Isles in the name of a “more perfect union.”

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    It’s the Euro Zone in reverse. I don’t know, it doesn’t sound very smart in this day and age to disentangle it all. Patriotic maybe. But in anycase,I think it is rather telling that they want to stay with the pound rather than go for the Euro. Of course, the Euro never seemed to be that popular with the people over there.

  • http://www.utah-lutheran.blogspot.com Bror Erickson

    It’s the Euro Zone in reverse. I don’t know, it doesn’t sound very smart in this day and age to disentangle it all. Patriotic maybe. But in anycase,I think it is rather telling that they want to stay with the pound rather than go for the Euro. Of course, the Euro never seemed to be that popular with the people over there.

  • Cincinnatus

    Everyone knows (right?) that the golden age of republican government is coterminous with the golden age of the Italian and Dutch city-states. Consolidation and centralization always comes at the cost of substantive liberties.

    If a community wishes to dissociate from a larger whole, I’ve never understood why not. And I don’t want to hear any balderdash about “sacrificing” for the greater good and so on. Unions are only good if they’re good for something–and I’m hard-pressed to consider what they actually are good for, except in extraordinary, temporally contingent events such as a foreign invasion, in which case there’s no reason the union itself can’t be either temporally contingent as well or highly restricted in its purposes and prerogatives.

    What did Scotland ever get from Union except a lot of dead Scots?

  • Cincinnatus

    Everyone knows (right?) that the golden age of republican government is coterminous with the golden age of the Italian and Dutch city-states. Consolidation and centralization always comes at the cost of substantive liberties.

    If a community wishes to dissociate from a larger whole, I’ve never understood why not. And I don’t want to hear any balderdash about “sacrificing” for the greater good and so on. Unions are only good if they’re good for something–and I’m hard-pressed to consider what they actually are good for, except in extraordinary, temporally contingent events such as a foreign invasion, in which case there’s no reason the union itself can’t be either temporally contingent as well or highly restricted in its purposes and prerogatives.

    What did Scotland ever get from Union except a lot of dead Scots?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Well, they vote for it, let it be. But some realism is also in order: As of 2011, each Scot gets £1600 p/a spent on them by the government, than the English. Scots get prescriptions, long term care and university education taken care of.
    See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031543/UK-government-spending-Scots-1-600-year-spent-English.html

    As to the North Sea oilfields: The UK part of these oilfields saw peak production in 1999, with a steady decline since then. Unless significant new discoveries are made in the heavily explored region, by 2020 we could see production at only 1/3 of the 1999 peak.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil

    As to the EU, the desire to stay on the pound is relatively recent, given the Euro-woes. But in general they are very EU-friendly. Also, they fall in the European social-Democratic political grouping.

    It is not that I am against the idea – if they want it, why not? But the perception that it is(currently) strongly supported in the polls is,well, farcical: An Ipsos poll in October of this year found only 30% support for independence, and 58% support for the Union. That is nearly a 2:1 ratio. What is more, support for independence has been dropping – from 39%, to 35%, to 30% for January, June and October this year, respectively.
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/poll-shows-support-for-scottish-independence-1385357

    A reality check for Mr Salmond is clearly in order…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Well, they vote for it, let it be. But some realism is also in order: As of 2011, each Scot gets £1600 p/a spent on them by the government, than the English. Scots get prescriptions, long term care and university education taken care of.
    See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031543/UK-government-spending-Scots-1-600-year-spent-English.html

    As to the North Sea oilfields: The UK part of these oilfields saw peak production in 1999, with a steady decline since then. Unless significant new discoveries are made in the heavily explored region, by 2020 we could see production at only 1/3 of the 1999 peak.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil

    As to the EU, the desire to stay on the pound is relatively recent, given the Euro-woes. But in general they are very EU-friendly. Also, they fall in the European social-Democratic political grouping.

    It is not that I am against the idea – if they want it, why not? But the perception that it is(currently) strongly supported in the polls is,well, farcical: An Ipsos poll in October of this year found only 30% support for independence, and 58% support for the Union. That is nearly a 2:1 ratio. What is more, support for independence has been dropping – from 39%, to 35%, to 30% for January, June and October this year, respectively.
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/poll-shows-support-for-scottish-independence-1385357

    A reality check for Mr Salmond is clearly in order…..

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I have a comment in moderation (more than 2 links). suffice to say, Mr Salmond needs a bit of a reality check.

    As they say, watch this space :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I have a comment in moderation (more than 2 links). suffice to say, Mr Salmond needs a bit of a reality check.

    As they say, watch this space :)

  • Jon

    And then there’s the whole “Duke of Edinbourgh” title thing.

    I suppose that would die with the current occupant if Scotland departs?

  • Jon

    And then there’s the whole “Duke of Edinbourgh” title thing.

    I suppose that would die with the current occupant if Scotland departs?

  • Jon

    And also what would the new Union Jack look like?

    Would Wales, given its more prominent role in the Union, finally be given its Griffon emblem emblazened on the center of the new jack now that the blue cross is no longer in the mix?

  • Jon

    And also what would the new Union Jack look like?

    Would Wales, given its more prominent role in the Union, finally be given its Griffon emblem emblazened on the center of the new jack now that the blue cross is no longer in the mix?

  • rlewer

    England became part of Scotland when the Scottish king of the Tudor line became the infamous King James I of England. When this evil line was beheaded, restored, and later abandoned for the Hanoverians, Scotland remained in the kingdom. From William the Conquerer forward, the English have never been ruled by actual Englishmen (persons) as kings or queens.

  • rlewer

    England became part of Scotland when the Scottish king of the Tudor line became the infamous King James I of England. When this evil line was beheaded, restored, and later abandoned for the Hanoverians, Scotland remained in the kingdom. From William the Conquerer forward, the English have never been ruled by actual Englishmen (persons) as kings or queens.

  • rlewer

    Shall the South also recover from the War of Northern Aggression?

  • rlewer

    Shall the South also recover from the War of Northern Aggression?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jon – not necessarily. For instance, Canada or Australia still have the Queen as head of state etc. The Monarchy was combined back in 1603, but the Crown only in 1706-7. With the independence of the colonies, the monarch again starting wearing “many Crowns” – she is Queen of Canada etc etc. The dissolution of the political union does not imply the dissolution of the monarchical union at all. Since 2008 the SNP has been in favour of retaining her majesty.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jon – not necessarily. For instance, Canada or Australia still have the Queen as head of state etc. The Monarchy was combined back in 1603, but the Crown only in 1706-7. With the independence of the colonies, the monarch again starting wearing “many Crowns” – she is Queen of Canada etc etc. The dissolution of the political union does not imply the dissolution of the monarchical union at all. Since 2008 the SNP has been in favour of retaining her majesty.

  • Cincinnatus

    rlewer@12:

    Why not? What’s the compelling reason against such a “recovery”?

    I suspect that KK is going to tell us, when his comment is freed from limbo, that Scottish independence is actually politically unlikely. And with this I agree.

    Doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea!

  • Cincinnatus

    rlewer@12:

    Why not? What’s the compelling reason against such a “recovery”?

    I suspect that KK is going to tell us, when his comment is freed from limbo, that Scottish independence is actually politically unlikely. And with this I agree.

    Doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea!

  • rlewer

    “many crowns”
    WWI was fought by three grandsons of the Hanoverian Queen Victoria. They ruled England, Germany, and Russia. It could have been called the “Cousins War.”

  • rlewer

    “many crowns”
    WWI was fought by three grandsons of the Hanoverian Queen Victoria. They ruled England, Germany, and Russia. It could have been called the “Cousins War.”

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus @ 15: Forget the Scotland, free the comment!! :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus @ 15: Forget the Scotland, free the comment!! :)

  • brianh

    If they are still tied to the Bank England’s pound Sterling, they lack such a key part of political independence that in effect they will have changed nothing.

  • brianh

    If they are still tied to the Bank England’s pound Sterling, they lack such a key part of political independence that in effect they will have changed nothing.

  • Cincinnatus

    brianh@17:

    That seems a bit of an exaggeration. Countless nations either use the American dollar or tie their currency to its fate. And while this may lock them into the orbit of American empire, I don’t think it makes them client states, per se. A currency is not the sole benchmark of political liberty.

  • Cincinnatus

    brianh@17:

    That seems a bit of an exaggeration. Countless nations either use the American dollar or tie their currency to its fate. And while this may lock them into the orbit of American empire, I don’t think it makes them client states, per se. A currency is not the sole benchmark of political liberty.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Talking about independence, Catalonia has a better chance – especially as they are also Spain’s economic powerhouse.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Talking about independence, Catalonia has a better chance – especially as they are also Spain’s economic powerhouse.

  • SKPeterson

    KK @ 16 – This is a comment free zone.

  • SKPeterson

    KK @ 16 – This is a comment free zone.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com John

    The Scots have always been free. Maybe the paperwork should be changed to reflect that.

  • http://www.redeemedrambling.blogspot.com John

    The Scots have always been free. Maybe the paperwork should be changed to reflect that.

  • Jon

    @ KK 13-

    I get the whole Commomwealth thing for Canada, Australia, head of state, etc., and so forth.

    But surely the title of “Duke of Edinborough” goes away, no? How can her majesty give a dukedom over over a sovereign free nation.

    And won’t all those other commonwealth nations that incorporate the Union Jack into their own flag, have to then change their flags to reflect whatever the new union jack ends up being?

    Are you saying the UK flag won’t change? That’d be awkward.

  • Jon

    @ KK 13-

    I get the whole Commomwealth thing for Canada, Australia, head of state, etc., and so forth.

    But surely the title of “Duke of Edinborough” goes away, no? How can her majesty give a dukedom over over a sovereign free nation.

    And won’t all those other commonwealth nations that incorporate the Union Jack into their own flag, have to then change their flags to reflect whatever the new union jack ends up being?

    Are you saying the UK flag won’t change? That’d be awkward.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I’ve never quite understood the connection between national determination and the SNP’s assortment of social democratic policy aims.

    Scots deciding what policies Scots will have. Seems like a pretty clear connection.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    I’ve never quite understood the connection between national determination and the SNP’s assortment of social democratic policy aims.

    Scots deciding what policies Scots will have. Seems like a pretty clear connection.

  • rlewer

    Isn’t Northern Ireland also inhabited by the Scots?

    The English would still have Wales and the Prince of Wales, but could they handle the Welch spellings?

    The Welch shall rise again?

  • rlewer

    Isn’t Northern Ireland also inhabited by the Scots?

    The English would still have Wales and the Prince of Wales, but could they handle the Welch spellings?

    The Welch shall rise again?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jon @ 23 – you didn’t get it. He will still be the Duke of Edinburgh. He is still married to their head of State.

    As to the Union Jack – more of an interesting question. No idea what could happen.

    Rlewer – No. The Irish and Scots have common origins, to some extent, and the Gaelic dialects of Ulster is the closest to Lowland Scots Gaelic of all the Irish Gaelic dialects.

    And it is spelled Welsh. And why on earth would Welsh spellings be a problem? Welsh is spoken in Wales, with official Welsh place names. Road signs are in English and Welsh, and the languages are treated equally, though only 19% of the population still speaks Welsh.

    Seriously, Google is your friend.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jon @ 23 – you didn’t get it. He will still be the Duke of Edinburgh. He is still married to their head of State.

    As to the Union Jack – more of an interesting question. No idea what could happen.

    Rlewer – No. The Irish and Scots have common origins, to some extent, and the Gaelic dialects of Ulster is the closest to Lowland Scots Gaelic of all the Irish Gaelic dialects.

    And it is spelled Welsh. And why on earth would Welsh spellings be a problem? Welsh is spoken in Wales, with official Welsh place names. Road signs are in English and Welsh, and the languages are treated equally, though only 19% of the population still speaks Welsh.

    Seriously, Google is your friend.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And I see my comment has been freed (#8).

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    And I see my comment has been freed (#8).

  • Cincinnatus

    Are these objections to Scottish independence I’m reading? Because as objections, they’re fairly shallow (almost as shallow as the ones Lincoln used to appeal to a vague, sentimental “Union” ;-) ).

    “But what about the Union Jack?”
    “How can the Prince call himself the Duke of Edinburgh?”
    “My God, how will the Scots spell things?!”

    Really? Are there any, you know, practical and/or theoretical oppositions?

  • Cincinnatus

    Are these objections to Scottish independence I’m reading? Because as objections, they’re fairly shallow (almost as shallow as the ones Lincoln used to appeal to a vague, sentimental “Union” ;-) ).

    “But what about the Union Jack?”
    “How can the Prince call himself the Duke of Edinburgh?”
    “My God, how will the Scots spell things?!”

    Really? Are there any, you know, practical and/or theoretical oppositions?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus – I don’t why they ask these questions. I was wondering if someone noticed the disparity between Veith’s claim (not Salmond’s, he doesn’t mention it) about popular support for independence, and the figures I quoted.

    The discussion here, unfortunately seems largely to be driven by romanticism. Scotland could be viable. But, given the financial impact of independence, could see themselves as one of Europe’s poorer outposts, it seems. After all, they’d have to take their fair share of the (UK) national debt as well. I think it is that prospect that makes people in Scotland skeptical of independence.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Cincinnatus – I don’t why they ask these questions. I was wondering if someone noticed the disparity between Veith’s claim (not Salmond’s, he doesn’t mention it) about popular support for independence, and the figures I quoted.

    The discussion here, unfortunately seems largely to be driven by romanticism. Scotland could be viable. But, given the financial impact of independence, could see themselves as one of Europe’s poorer outposts, it seems. After all, they’d have to take their fair share of the (UK) national debt as well. I think it is that prospect that makes people in Scotland skeptical of independence.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sorry – first sentence @ 29: I don’t know why…

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sorry – first sentence @ 29: I don’t know why…

  • Cincinnatus

    KK@30:

    Right, it’s long been true that a majority of the Scottish population does not favor independence–at least on the terms currently offered. Similarly, the proportion of Quebecois who advocate secession does not constitute a majority. That in itself isn’t really an objection to the idea, though.

    And, yes, it’s almost certainly the case that Scotland would be a poorer outpost in the EU (just as it’s a poorer outpost of the UK). Scotland, in fact, shares much in common–demographically, culturally, and economically–with the Appalachian region of the United States that its expatriates did so much to populate.

    That said, I can’t see that this is a valid objection either. I don’t think many Scots labor under the illusion that independence would improve their economic situation (though I suppose they believe more oil royalties would stay at home). When did we lose the notion of political freedom as a worthy end in itself?

    The question isn’t whether an independent Scotland would be economically better-off, but whether it could actually survive.

  • Cincinnatus

    KK@30:

    Right, it’s long been true that a majority of the Scottish population does not favor independence–at least on the terms currently offered. Similarly, the proportion of Quebecois who advocate secession does not constitute a majority. That in itself isn’t really an objection to the idea, though.

    And, yes, it’s almost certainly the case that Scotland would be a poorer outpost in the EU (just as it’s a poorer outpost of the UK). Scotland, in fact, shares much in common–demographically, culturally, and economically–with the Appalachian region of the United States that its expatriates did so much to populate.

    That said, I can’t see that this is a valid objection either. I don’t think many Scots labor under the illusion that independence would improve their economic situation (though I suppose they believe more oil royalties would stay at home). When did we lose the notion of political freedom as a worthy end in itself?

    The question isn’t whether an independent Scotland would be economically better-off, but whether it could actually survive.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Can someone explain how this is different from home rule?

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Can someone explain how this is different from home rule?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I’m sure it could survive. But I don’t think people will throw away economic prosperity for a flag? A romantic idea? The Scots aren’t exactly oppressed. They were at one stage, but that stage has long since passed. They control their own affairs, and have their own parliament.

    In the end, it does seem like a romantic notion, mainly. One shouldn’t forget that one reason that the SNP did relatively well last election is that people voted anti-Labour, not pro-SNP, in a continuing (from the 2010 elections) anti-Labout backlash. They were not really going to vote Conservative, since there is an ideological gulf . Thus, the default was SNP. The Lib Dems was punished for taking part in the coalition government with the Conservatives.

    That would explain an SNP victory, but less than 40% support for their main goal, independence.

    This article says it all:

    A YouGov poll of over 1000 Scottish adults, commissioned by the SNP last week, asked if people would be more or less likely to vote Yes if they could be persuaded that they would be better off.

    45% of those questioned said they were more likely to vote yes, and just 36% were less likely, under these circumstances. If translated to referendum votes, this would lead to a Yes result with a margin of over 11%.

    In addition, the last Scottish Social Attitudes survey showed that, if they were sure to be better off by just £500 per year, then over 65% of Scots would vote to become independent.

    From here: http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/6072-yes-vote-is-there-to-be-won-opening-message-to-snp-conference

    Thus – it is about the money. Not even the promise of independence will take the money from a clenched Scottish Fist :) :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I’m sure it could survive. But I don’t think people will throw away economic prosperity for a flag? A romantic idea? The Scots aren’t exactly oppressed. They were at one stage, but that stage has long since passed. They control their own affairs, and have their own parliament.

    In the end, it does seem like a romantic notion, mainly. One shouldn’t forget that one reason that the SNP did relatively well last election is that people voted anti-Labour, not pro-SNP, in a continuing (from the 2010 elections) anti-Labout backlash. They were not really going to vote Conservative, since there is an ideological gulf . Thus, the default was SNP. The Lib Dems was punished for taking part in the coalition government with the Conservatives.

    That would explain an SNP victory, but less than 40% support for their main goal, independence.

    This article says it all:

    A YouGov poll of over 1000 Scottish adults, commissioned by the SNP last week, asked if people would be more or less likely to vote Yes if they could be persuaded that they would be better off.

    45% of those questioned said they were more likely to vote yes, and just 36% were less likely, under these circumstances. If translated to referendum votes, this would lead to a Yes result with a margin of over 11%.

    In addition, the last Scottish Social Attitudes survey showed that, if they were sure to be better off by just £500 per year, then over 65% of Scots would vote to become independent.

    From here: http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/6072-yes-vote-is-there-to-be-won-opening-message-to-snp-conference

    Thus – it is about the money. Not even the promise of independence will take the money from a clenched Scottish Fist :) :)

  • kerner

    Well, for a free and independent Scotland, I give you the Corries’ version of “Scotland the Brave”. (the better parts are near the end)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK6LkpfZ94s

  • kerner

    Well, for a free and independent Scotland, I give you the Corries’ version of “Scotland the Brave”. (the better parts are near the end)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK6LkpfZ94s

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus asked (@31):

    When did we lose the notion of political freedom as a worthy end in itself?

    When did we ever possess it?

    I’m nowhere near as informed or well-read on this topic as you are, but it still seems to me that people have almost always clamored for political freedom as a means to gain some other end. I.e., they’re oppressed by too much taxation, or the government is impinging too much on their personal life (imprisonment), or whatever.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Cincinnatus asked (@31):

    When did we lose the notion of political freedom as a worthy end in itself?

    When did we ever possess it?

    I’m nowhere near as informed or well-read on this topic as you are, but it still seems to me that people have almost always clamored for political freedom as a means to gain some other end. I.e., they’re oppressed by too much taxation, or the government is impinging too much on their personal life (imprisonment), or whatever.

  • rlewer

    KK #26

    “Seriously?” No, I was obviously not being serious.

    Nevertheless, the Scotch settled Northern Ireland and took over the rule from the native Irish and Welsh spelling is notoriously strange in a very ancient Celtic language.

    Actually it is books, not Google, that are my friends. Just finishing a book of English history about the Tower of London. Google gives narrow snapshots, not broad contexts.

    (Can’t find the smiley faces on this site.)

  • rlewer

    KK #26

    “Seriously?” No, I was obviously not being serious.

    Nevertheless, the Scotch settled Northern Ireland and took over the rule from the native Irish and Welsh spelling is notoriously strange in a very ancient Celtic language.

    Actually it is books, not Google, that are my friends. Just finishing a book of English history about the Tower of London. Google gives narrow snapshots, not broad contexts.

    (Can’t find the smiley faces on this site.)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Yes, the Scotch did settle N Ireland. Thriving there too. Maybe even some Scots :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Yes, the Scotch did settle N Ireland. Thriving there too. Maybe even some Scots :)

  • Jon

    KK @ 26-

    Where does it say Scotland wants to keep the Queen as head of state, remain in the commonwealth?

    Sounded to me like the article was advocating true independence.

  • Jon

    KK @ 26-

    Where does it say Scotland wants to keep the Queen as head of state, remain in the commonwealth?

    Sounded to me like the article was advocating true independence.

  • Klasie Kraalogies
  • Klasie Kraalogies
  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Rlewer (@36), if you want to sound like you know something on this topic, you really should at least get the demonyms right. “Welch”? “The Scotch settled Northern Ireland”?! What, Bushmills?

    Welsh spelling is notoriously strange in a very ancient Celtic language.

    Sure, Welsh is funky, but have you given a look at Scottish Gaelic? I mean, the pleasant-enough English “Pitlochry” becomes “Baile Chloichridh” in Scottish Gaelic. No wonder it’s a dying language!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Rlewer (@36), if you want to sound like you know something on this topic, you really should at least get the demonyms right. “Welch”? “The Scotch settled Northern Ireland”?! What, Bushmills?

    Welsh spelling is notoriously strange in a very ancient Celtic language.

    Sure, Welsh is funky, but have you given a look at Scottish Gaelic? I mean, the pleasant-enough English “Pitlochry” becomes “Baile Chloichridh” in Scottish Gaelic. No wonder it’s a dying language!

  • rlewer

    Do you buy Scots Tape?

    Were the Appalachians settled by the Scots- Irish?

    Hey guys. It was a joke.

    Nevertheless, the Scots (if you insist) did move into Northern Ireland abetted by the English during one of their periodic famines and now control the place. I assume you do remember the riots and bombings this caused in the past.

  • rlewer

    Do you buy Scots Tape?

    Were the Appalachians settled by the Scots- Irish?

    Hey guys. It was a joke.

    Nevertheless, the Scots (if you insist) did move into Northern Ireland abetted by the English during one of their periodic famines and now control the place. I assume you do remember the riots and bombings this caused in the past.

  • Cincinnatus

    Actually, the Appalachians were settled by the Scot-Irish.

    Just sayin’.

  • Cincinnatus

    Actually, the Appalachians were settled by the Scot-Irish.

    Just sayin’.

  • Tom Hering

    “Scots,” because it’s Scotland, the land of the Scots. Not Scotchland. Though “Scotch” is perfectly acceptable as a contraction of the origin-defining “Scottish.” So watch your usage.

  • Tom Hering

    “Scots,” because it’s Scotland, the land of the Scots. Not Scotchland. Though “Scotch” is perfectly acceptable as a contraction of the origin-defining “Scottish.” So watch your usage.

  • Cincinnatus

    SCOTS*-Irish.

    Geez.

  • Cincinnatus

    SCOTS*-Irish.

    Geez.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Also, “Scotch tape” is a fascinating slur that has managed to stick around:

    A customer complained that 3M was manufacturing its masking tape too cheaply, and told company engineer Richard Drew to, “take this tape back to your stingy Scotch bosses and tell them to put more adhesive on it.”

    It’s basically the same as calling it “Jew tape”. I guess 3M can be thankful the customer picked the “right” group to malign back in the day.

    Anyhow, “Scotch” is the adjective, and “Scot” is the noun. So the tape is Scotch, and the drink is Scotch (whisky), but the people are Scots. The word before “Irish” could go either way, either by modifying the term (“Scotch-Irish”), or adding to it (“Scots-Irish”).

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    Also, “Scotch tape” is a fascinating slur that has managed to stick around:

    A customer complained that 3M was manufacturing its masking tape too cheaply, and told company engineer Richard Drew to, “take this tape back to your stingy Scotch bosses and tell them to put more adhesive on it.”

    It’s basically the same as calling it “Jew tape”. I guess 3M can be thankful the customer picked the “right” group to malign back in the day.

    Anyhow, “Scotch” is the adjective, and “Scot” is the noun. So the tape is Scotch, and the drink is Scotch (whisky), but the people are Scots. The word before “Irish” could go either way, either by modifying the term (“Scotch-Irish”), or adding to it (“Scots-Irish”).

  • rlewer

    Interesting story. However, I believe that the original name Scotch Tape was given by 3M with the plaid and everything when it was put on the market, not a later name calling name. I believe that the name also first referred to the clear “plastic” tape, not a masking tape. Could be wrong. Probably it already had the name Scotch and therefore the person referred to supposed stinginess of the Scots (Scotch). Good story anyway.

    To continue with the silly discussion: Yes, Scot is a noun and Scotch is the adjective. Adjectives are often used without their nouns (Scotch whiskey – just Scotch) and include the noun in its meaning as Scotch descent. Your analysis is correct.

  • rlewer

    Interesting story. However, I believe that the original name Scotch Tape was given by 3M with the plaid and everything when it was put on the market, not a later name calling name. I believe that the name also first referred to the clear “plastic” tape, not a masking tape. Could be wrong. Probably it already had the name Scotch and therefore the person referred to supposed stinginess of the Scots (Scotch). Good story anyway.

    To continue with the silly discussion: Yes, Scot is a noun and Scotch is the adjective. Adjectives are often used without their nouns (Scotch whiskey – just Scotch) and include the noun in its meaning as Scotch descent. Your analysis is correct.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    > Also, “Scotch tape” is a fascinating slur that has
    > managed to stick around…
    Stickiness is a desirable property of tape.
    But it’s the whiskey of the same name that causes the slur.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    > Also, “Scotch tape” is a fascinating slur that has
    > managed to stick around…
    Stickiness is a desirable property of tape.
    But it’s the whiskey of the same name that causes the slur.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    RLewer (@46):

    However, I believe that the original name Scotch Tape was given by 3M with the plaid and everything when it was put on the market, not a later name calling name.

    Wrong. Let’s ask 3M themselves, shall we?:

    1925 – Scotch® Masking Tape: Dick Drew conceived the idea for masking tape after watching automobile workers struggling with heavy adhesive tape that damaged paint jobs when it was removed. Scotch tape got its name when an auto painter proclaimed to a sales representative “take this tape back to those Scotch bosses of yours and tell them to put more adhesive on it!”

    You’ll note that this information is not found anywhere on the site intended for US audiences, only for those in NZ.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com tODD

    RLewer (@46):

    However, I believe that the original name Scotch Tape was given by 3M with the plaid and everything when it was put on the market, not a later name calling name.

    Wrong. Let’s ask 3M themselves, shall we?:

    1925 – Scotch® Masking Tape: Dick Drew conceived the idea for masking tape after watching automobile workers struggling with heavy adhesive tape that damaged paint jobs when it was removed. Scotch tape got its name when an auto painter proclaimed to a sales representative “take this tape back to those Scotch bosses of yours and tell them to put more adhesive on it!”

    You’ll note that this information is not found anywhere on the site intended for US audiences, only for those in NZ.

  • rlewer

    Also on Wikipedia, but with the development date in the 1930′s. They also advertised it with a Scot in kilts. Strange but seemingly true, even though 3M is a corporation.

    Perhaps sometime we will discuss the Ires from Irishland.

    Trying to pierce the mists of Scot history, it seems that whenever the Scots had a problem of overpopulation they solved it by attacking the English.

  • rlewer

    Also on Wikipedia, but with the development date in the 1930′s. They also advertised it with a Scot in kilts. Strange but seemingly true, even though 3M is a corporation.

    Perhaps sometime we will discuss the Ires from Irishland.

    Trying to pierce the mists of Scot history, it seems that whenever the Scots had a problem of overpopulation they solved it by attacking the English.

  • Christopher Martin

    Watching Braveheart with my son this weekend, and all I can say is about freakin’ time.

  • Christopher Martin

    Watching Braveheart with my son this weekend, and all I can say is about freakin’ time.


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