Supreme Court to rule on gay marriage

The Supreme Court has agreed to hear two cases that may settle the legal status of gay marriage in this country.  The court will rule on the constitutionality of the Defense of Marriage Act, which defines marriage in federal law as being between one man and one woman.  It will also rule on Proposition 8, the referendum in which California voters rejected gay marriage, only to have the vote stricken down by a federal court.

Supreme Court to hear same-sex marriage cases – The Washington Post.

What do you predict will happen?

Our legal system has long been tinkering with what marriage is supposed to be.  For example, the definition of marriage as a permanent, for-better-or-worse estate was changed by no-fault divorce laws, but I don’t recall anyone complaining much.

About Gene Veith

Professor of Literature at Patrick Henry College, the Director of the Cranach Institute at Concordia Theological Seminary, a columnist for World Magazine and TableTalk, and the author of 18 books on different facets of Christianity & Culture.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Again, in one sense for Christians it’s irrelevant, because we have what we have been given from God who created all things including the institution of marriage.

    While I’m not an “end-times freak,” I have long speculated that the days would be coming in America when the populace and general consensus at large will be moving in a more anti-Christian direction, and it may very well be that such a day may be upon us even now. And while it is extremely sad to the extent that America is cutting her own Christian roots in favor of a hyper-paganism, it is also exciting to the degree that the Church of Jesus Christ has an opportunity to bear witness to the Bible in a way that really does separate us from the world.

    It’s easy to be Christian when your nation is essentially Christianized; the challenge to being a Christian comes when the nation you live in is paganized.

  • http://enterthevein.wordpress.com J. Dean

    Again, in one sense for Christians it’s irrelevant, because we have what we have been given from God who created all things including the institution of marriage.

    While I’m not an “end-times freak,” I have long speculated that the days would be coming in America when the populace and general consensus at large will be moving in a more anti-Christian direction, and it may very well be that such a day may be upon us even now. And while it is extremely sad to the extent that America is cutting her own Christian roots in favor of a hyper-paganism, it is also exciting to the degree that the Church of Jesus Christ has an opportunity to bear witness to the Bible in a way that really does separate us from the world.

    It’s easy to be Christian when your nation is essentially Christianized; the challenge to being a Christian comes when the nation you live in is paganized.

  • Carl Vehse

    Perhaps the SCOTUS, in the spirit of leftist perversion and the destruction of marriage and family, will revise the definition of marriage to include everyone and everything, in any permutation and combination of sexual preferences, animal, vegetable, or mineral.

    In the liberal mindset, it’s all the same thing, depending on how fast the media clymers and liberal blogs can propagandize their lie that all beliefs are to be tolerated unless they are intolerant.

  • Carl Vehse

    Perhaps the SCOTUS, in the spirit of leftist perversion and the destruction of marriage and family, will revise the definition of marriage to include everyone and everything, in any permutation and combination of sexual preferences, animal, vegetable, or mineral.

    In the liberal mindset, it’s all the same thing, depending on how fast the media clymers and liberal blogs can propagandize their lie that all beliefs are to be tolerated unless they are intolerant.

  • Spaulding

    The SCOTUS will force gay marriage down the throats of the American people with no religious exemptions. So the Roman Catholic church, LCMS, WELS etc will be forced to perform gay “marriage”ceremonies or they don’t have the right to exist any more.

  • Spaulding

    The SCOTUS will force gay marriage down the throats of the American people with no religious exemptions. So the Roman Catholic church, LCMS, WELS etc will be forced to perform gay “marriage”ceremonies or they don’t have the right to exist any more.

  • The Jones

    Can someone properly say that one has been been unjustly deprived of something that has never existed before in the history of the universe?

  • The Jones

    Can someone properly say that one has been been unjustly deprived of something that has never existed before in the history of the universe?

  • Jim Hamilton

    The worse things get, the closer we are to the End. Let it burn. All of it.

  • Jim Hamilton

    The worse things get, the closer we are to the End. Let it burn. All of it.

  • Tom Hering

    Lord Jesus, come quickly. Yes. But honestly, this idea that gay marriage somehow signals the nearness of the eschaton … let’s get some perspective. There have been plenty of times and places in the past 2000 years that were far more anti-Christian than 21st century America. And the end didn’t happen.

    So, take a breath. Plant a tree. Share the Gospel.

  • Tom Hering

    Lord Jesus, come quickly. Yes. But honestly, this idea that gay marriage somehow signals the nearness of the eschaton … let’s get some perspective. There have been plenty of times and places in the past 2000 years that were far more anti-Christian than 21st century America. And the end didn’t happen.

    So, take a breath. Plant a tree. Share the Gospel.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #5 I’m starting to feel the same way. It’s best off to expect the worst because then you won’t be disappointed.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #5 I’m starting to feel the same way. It’s best off to expect the worst because then you won’t be disappointed.

  • Mary

    #3 Spaulding

    Speaking only for my local LCMS parish, I predict that we will no longer perform “marriages” for the state. We will instead offer some sort of blessing ceremony after the Justice of the Peace or City Hall ceremony.
    Our pastor during Bible study yesterday was commenting on this. We are being beat over the head with the idea that marriage can be anything we decide, but no matter how loud or often it is proclaimed it is still a lie. He compared it to if the Supreme Court came out and said black is white, and white is black…doesn’t make it true.

  • Mary

    #3 Spaulding

    Speaking only for my local LCMS parish, I predict that we will no longer perform “marriages” for the state. We will instead offer some sort of blessing ceremony after the Justice of the Peace or City Hall ceremony.
    Our pastor during Bible study yesterday was commenting on this. We are being beat over the head with the idea that marriage can be anything we decide, but no matter how loud or often it is proclaimed it is still a lie. He compared it to if the Supreme Court came out and said black is white, and white is black…doesn’t make it true.

  • Spaulding

    @8 That is a good way to handle it. I thought of amending the church bylaws now to include wording that basically says: that marriage in this church shall be limited to couples of one man one woman, and current members or children of current members. Don’t know whether doing something like that would stand up in the courts.

  • Spaulding

    @8 That is a good way to handle it. I thought of amending the church bylaws now to include wording that basically says: that marriage in this church shall be limited to couples of one man one woman, and current members or children of current members. Don’t know whether doing something like that would stand up in the courts.

  • Steve Bauer

    I’m with Tom @ 6. Divorce has done more to undermine society than homosexual “marriage” ever will.

  • Steve Bauer

    I’m with Tom @ 6. Divorce has done more to undermine society than homosexual “marriage” ever will.

  • P.C.

    J. Dean @1…well said.

    Unfortunately, I predict the Supreme Court to vote 6 to 3 to overturn the God-instituted definition of marriage.

    That being said, no one has ever said America will be a great country forever whether economically, socially, or militarily. As for most democracies in history, we are long overdue for self-destruction or being overtaken by a stronger adversary.

    Is this the end of the world. Yep!! And its been the end of the world since Christ’s resurrection. Come, Lord Jesus, come.

  • P.C.

    J. Dean @1…well said.

    Unfortunately, I predict the Supreme Court to vote 6 to 3 to overturn the God-instituted definition of marriage.

    That being said, no one has ever said America will be a great country forever whether economically, socially, or militarily. As for most democracies in history, we are long overdue for self-destruction or being overtaken by a stronger adversary.

    Is this the end of the world. Yep!! And its been the end of the world since Christ’s resurrection. Come, Lord Jesus, come.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    What Tom said.

    Seriously, has there ever been a generation that did not somehow believe that for them the end was near?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    What Tom said.

    Seriously, has there ever been a generation that did not somehow believe that for them the end was near?

  • Pete

    What The Jones said.

  • Pete

    What The Jones said.

  • Mary

    @Klasie #12

    Yeah, but they didn’t have the Mayan calendar backing them up ;->

  • Mary

    @Klasie #12

    Yeah, but they didn’t have the Mayan calendar backing them up ;->

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I’m more optimistic. If the Supreme court had wanted the lower court’s Prop 8 ruling to stand, all they had to do is nothing.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I’m more optimistic. If the Supreme court had wanted the lower court’s Prop 8 ruling to stand, all they had to do is nothing.

  • Joe

    The rulings on these cases will mean nothing for the Church. Indeed, if the Church would stop worrying about trying to impose the moral law via the government and get back to its real vocation — proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, teaching members God’s laws, forgiving sinners and showing them that their reconciliation with God is through Christ — perhaps court cases about the legal definition of marriage might not seem so important.

    Unless and until the gov’t attempts to force churches to marry same sex couples, the legality or non-legality of same sex marriage will mean nothing. Church teaching and the legal status of divorce have been at odds with each other for decades yet the Church has not been forced to ignore the sin no-fault divorces. No governmental agency has swooped in an arrested a pastor for excommunicating an open, non-repentant adulterer.

  • Joe

    The rulings on these cases will mean nothing for the Church. Indeed, if the Church would stop worrying about trying to impose the moral law via the government and get back to its real vocation — proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, teaching members God’s laws, forgiving sinners and showing them that their reconciliation with God is through Christ — perhaps court cases about the legal definition of marriage might not seem so important.

    Unless and until the gov’t attempts to force churches to marry same sex couples, the legality or non-legality of same sex marriage will mean nothing. Church teaching and the legal status of divorce have been at odds with each other for decades yet the Church has not been forced to ignore the sin no-fault divorces. No governmental agency has swooped in an arrested a pastor for excommunicating an open, non-repentant adulterer.

  • Kirk

    @Joe

    What you say makes perfect sense, but illogical hand wringing and talking about the end of the world is so much more entertaining.

  • Kirk

    @Joe

    What you say makes perfect sense, but illogical hand wringing and talking about the end of the world is so much more entertaining.

  • http://thinkingwithareformedmind.blogspot.com Steven Mitchell

    Mike, two items to consider: 1) only four justices (less than a majority) are required to grant a writ of certiorari; 2) the 9th Circuit’s ruling currently only binds the 9th Circuit, whereas a ruling by the Court would be precedent for the entire nation, so there is a legal difference.

    One major question is whether/how Kennedy will distinguish this case from Lawrence v. Texas. In that case, Kennedy specifically pointed out that the case did not ‘involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.’

    But don’t be surprised if the Court rules on a procedural question rather than the merits of the case. Ironically, both cases have real questions of whether the parties have legal standing in the case. The Court could very easily dismiss both cases for reasons of standing, effectively upholding the rulings of the lower courts without having to make a decision regarding marriage law.

  • http://thinkingwithareformedmind.blogspot.com Steven Mitchell

    Mike, two items to consider: 1) only four justices (less than a majority) are required to grant a writ of certiorari; 2) the 9th Circuit’s ruling currently only binds the 9th Circuit, whereas a ruling by the Court would be precedent for the entire nation, so there is a legal difference.

    One major question is whether/how Kennedy will distinguish this case from Lawrence v. Texas. In that case, Kennedy specifically pointed out that the case did not ‘involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.’

    But don’t be surprised if the Court rules on a procedural question rather than the merits of the case. Ironically, both cases have real questions of whether the parties have legal standing in the case. The Court could very easily dismiss both cases for reasons of standing, effectively upholding the rulings of the lower courts without having to make a decision regarding marriage law.

  • Stone the Crows

    The supremes are going to make a legal ruling on an ethical and moral question? What could go wrong? They’ll think they’ll deliberate, they’ll write and somewhere around late next summer in what will surely be a huge media circuis they’ll punt this issue by making a decision that is really not a decision at all and stick the cultural status quo which is to let the states decide. Marriage as far as the law is concerned is a form of partnership and the vows are a type of contract, that is the way they will view it and that is basis on which they will rule. I don’t expect that gay marriage will be outlawed and I don’t expect the court to put its imprimatur on gay marriage either.

  • Stone the Crows

    The supremes are going to make a legal ruling on an ethical and moral question? What could go wrong? They’ll think they’ll deliberate, they’ll write and somewhere around late next summer in what will surely be a huge media circuis they’ll punt this issue by making a decision that is really not a decision at all and stick the cultural status quo which is to let the states decide. Marriage as far as the law is concerned is a form of partnership and the vows are a type of contract, that is the way they will view it and that is basis on which they will rule. I don’t expect that gay marriage will be outlawed and I don’t expect the court to put its imprimatur on gay marriage either.

  • JMJR

    The govt already looks at marriage as a bundle of economic and legal benefits and rights, much as it looks at incorporation of a business. It already plays around with those benefits and rights (it reduced the child tax credit for 2013). The govt does not look at marriage as a covenant between God, the man, and the woman. It is very possible that Mary (#8) is correct and denominations and churches will have to define what marriage is and more difficult how they will enforce church discipline over marriage is church marriage is distinct from state marriage. You could have a couple walk into your church that have been state married for five years with two kids. Pastors and elders would have to ask them if they had ever been married in a church and if not then ask them to get married in order to become members (much like if they had never been baptized and church membership requires baptism so they would be told they must be baptized). This scenario presents new issues for church courts and church discipline that churches must begin to get a handle on now.

  • JMJR

    The govt already looks at marriage as a bundle of economic and legal benefits and rights, much as it looks at incorporation of a business. It already plays around with those benefits and rights (it reduced the child tax credit for 2013). The govt does not look at marriage as a covenant between God, the man, and the woman. It is very possible that Mary (#8) is correct and denominations and churches will have to define what marriage is and more difficult how they will enforce church discipline over marriage is church marriage is distinct from state marriage. You could have a couple walk into your church that have been state married for five years with two kids. Pastors and elders would have to ask them if they had ever been married in a church and if not then ask them to get married in order to become members (much like if they had never been baptized and church membership requires baptism so they would be told they must be baptized). This scenario presents new issues for church courts and church discipline that churches must begin to get a handle on now.

  • JMJR

    Meant to say “if church marriage is distinct from state marriage.”

  • JMJR

    Meant to say “if church marriage is distinct from state marriage.”

  • DonS

    It’s no surprise the Court took the cases — the issue is ripe for adjudication and we are at a crossroads in determining whether the people will decide whether they want to recognize gay marriage or whether the courts are going to impose recognition by fiat.

    I wholly disagree with those who say this issue isn’t important. Besides the issue of perverting an institution that has existed for millenia as being the union of a man and a woman for the purpose of continuing mankind, how gay marriage is recognized, if it is, is of vital importance. If the people vote it in, either directly, as was the case in Washington and Maryland in the last election, or legislatively, then so be it. But the courts have no business imposing it based on an utterly cynical and political reading of the constitutional right to equal protection. If this precedent were to be established, there would be no end to future mischief possible under such a ridiculous interpretation. Our society has the right to decide for itself whether there is something unique about the union of a man and a woman, as opposed to two women, two men, or whatever other combination sinful mankind conjures up, that is worthy of protection and a different status than these other relationships. We are not talking about prohibiting anyone from doing anything — merely whether they are entitled to the same sort of recognition/validation.

    The 9th Circuit case will be struck down, at least for its reasoning. That case held that California had every right to not recognize gay marriage UNTIL its supreme court overturned California’s original marriage statute just prior to the election of 2008. Proposition 8, which was identical to the statute, but a constitutional provision, was on the ballot when the California Supreme Court issued its convoluted ruling taking the issue out of the people’s hands. According to the 9th Circuit, once the CA Supreme Court did this, the state could not then take the right of gay marriage away again because to do so would violate equal protection principles. That makes no sense, and the U.S. Supreme Court will almost certainly abrogate this basis for overturning Proposition 8.

    A closer question is whether the Court will then overturn both DOMA and Proposition 8, and, essentially, all of the 31 state constitutional provisions banning gay marriage, based on more enduring equal protection principles. I don’t think so, but it will be a 5-4 vote either way. I think the Court will recognize that it should not short circuit the democratic process, by creating a new constitutional right, as it did with abortion — as such actions cause far more political upheaval than they prevent.

  • DonS

    It’s no surprise the Court took the cases — the issue is ripe for adjudication and we are at a crossroads in determining whether the people will decide whether they want to recognize gay marriage or whether the courts are going to impose recognition by fiat.

    I wholly disagree with those who say this issue isn’t important. Besides the issue of perverting an institution that has existed for millenia as being the union of a man and a woman for the purpose of continuing mankind, how gay marriage is recognized, if it is, is of vital importance. If the people vote it in, either directly, as was the case in Washington and Maryland in the last election, or legislatively, then so be it. But the courts have no business imposing it based on an utterly cynical and political reading of the constitutional right to equal protection. If this precedent were to be established, there would be no end to future mischief possible under such a ridiculous interpretation. Our society has the right to decide for itself whether there is something unique about the union of a man and a woman, as opposed to two women, two men, or whatever other combination sinful mankind conjures up, that is worthy of protection and a different status than these other relationships. We are not talking about prohibiting anyone from doing anything — merely whether they are entitled to the same sort of recognition/validation.

    The 9th Circuit case will be struck down, at least for its reasoning. That case held that California had every right to not recognize gay marriage UNTIL its supreme court overturned California’s original marriage statute just prior to the election of 2008. Proposition 8, which was identical to the statute, but a constitutional provision, was on the ballot when the California Supreme Court issued its convoluted ruling taking the issue out of the people’s hands. According to the 9th Circuit, once the CA Supreme Court did this, the state could not then take the right of gay marriage away again because to do so would violate equal protection principles. That makes no sense, and the U.S. Supreme Court will almost certainly abrogate this basis for overturning Proposition 8.

    A closer question is whether the Court will then overturn both DOMA and Proposition 8, and, essentially, all of the 31 state constitutional provisions banning gay marriage, based on more enduring equal protection principles. I don’t think so, but it will be a 5-4 vote either way. I think the Court will recognize that it should not short circuit the democratic process, by creating a new constitutional right, as it did with abortion — as such actions cause far more political upheaval than they prevent.

  • JMJR

    Or would we treat state marriage like common law marriage? If so how do churches handle that?

  • JMJR

    Or would we treat state marriage like common law marriage? If so how do churches handle that?

  • helen

    Joe @ 16
    No governmental agency has swooped in an arrested a pastor for excommunicating an open, non-repentant adulterer.

    How many such excommunications have you witnessed?

  • helen

    Joe @ 16
    No governmental agency has swooped in an arrested a pastor for excommunicating an open, non-repentant adulterer.

    How many such excommunications have you witnessed?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Mary @ 14: The positive interpretation of the Mayan calendar is that they weren’t counting down to the end of the world, they were foreseeing the release of “The Hobbit”.

    The negative interpretation is that they foresaw the popularity of Justin Bieber.

    Either way, it seems that they were on to something.
    :) :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Mary @ 14: The positive interpretation of the Mayan calendar is that they weren’t counting down to the end of the world, they were foreseeing the release of “The Hobbit”.

    The negative interpretation is that they foresaw the popularity of Justin Bieber.

    Either way, it seems that they were on to something.
    :) :)

  • Joe

    Helen — it happens, I have seen it happen. I will not discuss specifics on a blog.

  • Joe

    Helen — it happens, I have seen it happen. I will not discuss specifics on a blog.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    For example, the definition of marriage as a permanent, for-better-or-worse estate was changed by no-fault divorce laws, but I don’t recall anyone complaining much.

    Children, but who cares about them.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    For example, the definition of marriage as a permanent, for-better-or-worse estate was changed by no-fault divorce laws, but I don’t recall anyone complaining much.

    Children, but who cares about them.

  • reg

    Joe @ 16,
    Amen.

  • reg

    Joe @ 16,
    Amen.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom @6

    It’s condescending (though a popular internet tactic) to tell a person to “take a breath.”

    The last century has been the worst in human history. Violence, brutality, immorality, perversion, and cruelty are at an all-time high. See WW I and II, the Holocaust, Japanese Fascism, the Cultural Revolution, Stalinism, FARC, the Khmer Rouge, AIDS, Rwanda, the Belgian Congo, mass African starvation, North Korea, just to name a very of the few low points. The mass delusion that men can “marry” each other is simply another indication of the decay of human civilization. Your advice to “plant a tree” probably comes as great comfort to the Coptic Christians who are being slaughtered for their faith. You can minimize the wretchedness of this world (and living in America it’s easy to do) if you want, but in my view, we are living in the End Times.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom @6

    It’s condescending (though a popular internet tactic) to tell a person to “take a breath.”

    The last century has been the worst in human history. Violence, brutality, immorality, perversion, and cruelty are at an all-time high. See WW I and II, the Holocaust, Japanese Fascism, the Cultural Revolution, Stalinism, FARC, the Khmer Rouge, AIDS, Rwanda, the Belgian Congo, mass African starvation, North Korea, just to name a very of the few low points. The mass delusion that men can “marry” each other is simply another indication of the decay of human civilization. Your advice to “plant a tree” probably comes as great comfort to the Coptic Christians who are being slaughtered for their faith. You can minimize the wretchedness of this world (and living in America it’s easy to do) if you want, but in my view, we are living in the End Times.

  • Kirk

    For those wondering, yes, Jim did just put gay marriage in the same category as the holocaust and the Rwandan Genocide.

  • Kirk

    For those wondering, yes, Jim did just put gay marriage in the same category as the holocaust and the Rwandan Genocide.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim,

    The last century has been the greatest: Medical breakthroughs, combating hunger, flying, internet, space travel, more literacy,…

    It all depends what you are thinking of.

    The 5th and 6th Centuries AD were pretty dismal too. As were the Mongol invasions in Central Asia etc. Or the late Yuan warfare at the start of Ming dynasty in China. WWII killed 40-72 million people, out of about 2.5 billion in the world (or 1.6 – 2.9%). The Yuan warfare killed 30 million out of about 450 million, or 6.7%. And at the same general period as the Yuan warfare, up to 100 million people perished in the Black Death. Christianity was in disarray. etc etc.

    Ignorance of history is generally a hallmark of doomsayers.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim,

    The last century has been the greatest: Medical breakthroughs, combating hunger, flying, internet, space travel, more literacy,…

    It all depends what you are thinking of.

    The 5th and 6th Centuries AD were pretty dismal too. As were the Mongol invasions in Central Asia etc. Or the late Yuan warfare at the start of Ming dynasty in China. WWII killed 40-72 million people, out of about 2.5 billion in the world (or 1.6 – 2.9%). The Yuan warfare killed 30 million out of about 450 million, or 6.7%. And at the same general period as the Yuan warfare, up to 100 million people perished in the Black Death. Christianity was in disarray. etc etc.

    Ignorance of history is generally a hallmark of doomsayers.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Kirk @30

    “For those wondering, yes, Jim did just put gay marriage in the same category as the holocaust and the Rwandan Genocide.”

    Every indicator of societal decay is not be of the same scale or nature. Some are enormous and shocking in their cruelty and destruction. Others are more subtle. In my view, millions of people embracing and celebrating a perversion of God’s order is a serious indicator that our sin-marred nature continues its inevitable decay. But thanks for the snarky quip! You sure zinged me there!

  • Jim Hamilton

    Kirk @30

    “For those wondering, yes, Jim did just put gay marriage in the same category as the holocaust and the Rwandan Genocide.”

    Every indicator of societal decay is not be of the same scale or nature. Some are enormous and shocking in their cruelty and destruction. Others are more subtle. In my view, millions of people embracing and celebrating a perversion of God’s order is a serious indicator that our sin-marred nature continues its inevitable decay. But thanks for the snarky quip! You sure zinged me there!

  • Grace

    “It will also rule on Proposition 8, the referendum in which California voters rejected gay marriage, only to have the vote stricken down by a federal court.”

    We in California, voted against homosexual marriage. To change our vote, making homosexual marriage legal, in essence, means, TO VOTE, has no value, there are nine people who have that right to overturn what we have voted.

  • Grace

    “It will also rule on Proposition 8, the referendum in which California voters rejected gay marriage, only to have the vote stricken down by a federal court.”

    We in California, voted against homosexual marriage. To change our vote, making homosexual marriage legal, in essence, means, TO VOTE, has no value, there are nine people who have that right to overturn what we have voted.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @31

    I knew that someone would pick an arbitrary point in history and attempt to “prove” that things were worse then by demonstrating that as matter of population percentage more people died from this or that, blah, blah, blah. But here’s the truth, sir: Hundreds of millions of people (at least) perished in the last century from war, disease, starvation, political terror, and abortion (50 million in American alone since 1973). Suffering on this scale has never been approached, much less exceeded, since Creation. You can believe anything you want. This is still a free country, sort of. My view is that we’re deep into the Little Season and the Son will soon return. I sure hope so!

  • Jim Hamilton

    @31

    I knew that someone would pick an arbitrary point in history and attempt to “prove” that things were worse then by demonstrating that as matter of population percentage more people died from this or that, blah, blah, blah. But here’s the truth, sir: Hundreds of millions of people (at least) perished in the last century from war, disease, starvation, political terror, and abortion (50 million in American alone since 1973). Suffering on this scale has never been approached, much less exceeded, since Creation. You can believe anything you want. This is still a free country, sort of. My view is that we’re deep into the Little Season and the Son will soon return. I sure hope so!

  • CRB

    Although he doesn’t speak specifically to the issue of “gay marriage,” the overall presentation gives pause for much concern for our rights in this nation.

  • CRB

    Although he doesn’t speak specifically to the issue of “gay marriage,” the overall presentation gives pause for much concern for our rights in this nation.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    @ 34: You prove my point. People will often see what they want to see, damn the facts.

    Talking about sandwiches short of a picnic.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    @ 34: You prove my point. People will often see what they want to see, damn the facts.

    Talking about sandwiches short of a picnic.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    @34 Again:

    knew that someone would pick an arbitrary point in history and attempt to “prove” that things were worse then

    You mean like those crazy folks who pick the 20th century?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    @34 Again:

    knew that someone would pick an arbitrary point in history and attempt to “prove” that things were worse then

    You mean like those crazy folks who pick the 20th century?

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    What will happen?

    The Church will be given yet another opportunity to demonstrate how a-cultural and counter-culture the Word of God is.

  • http://www.cyberbrethren.com Rev. Paul T. McCain

    What will happen?

    The Church will be given yet another opportunity to demonstrate how a-cultural and counter-culture the Word of God is.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @36

    I’m not sure what your point is. My view is that the last century has been the worst in human history. You’re free to disagree with me. Do you call everyone crazy if they don’t agree with you?

  • Jim Hamilton

    @36

    I’m not sure what your point is. My view is that the last century has been the worst in human history. You’re free to disagree with me. Do you call everyone crazy if they don’t agree with you?

  • CRB

    @Carl Vehse 2: You are so “right on!!”

  • CRB

    @Carl Vehse 2: You are so “right on!!”

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    No, I call people crazy who refuse to look at the facts, who cannot understand the simple math (6.7% > 2.9% for instance) because they are intellectually, and more importantly, emotionally invested in a scheme that cannot be proven, and is actually easily falsifiable. And yet they dismiss all evidence, and all those who differ from them, ignorantly and arrogantly asserting their own superior understanding.

    Do I really need to spell it out?? As always, I welcome reasonable counterpoint. But I don’t have patience with….

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    No, I call people crazy who refuse to look at the facts, who cannot understand the simple math (6.7% > 2.9% for instance) because they are intellectually, and more importantly, emotionally invested in a scheme that cannot be proven, and is actually easily falsifiable. And yet they dismiss all evidence, and all those who differ from them, ignorantly and arrogantly asserting their own superior understanding.

    Do I really need to spell it out?? As always, I welcome reasonable counterpoint. But I don’t have patience with….

  • Grace

    Jim @34 “Hundreds of millions of people (at least) perished in the last century from war, disease, starvation, political terror, and abortion (50 million in American alone since 1973). Suffering on this scale has never been approached, much less exceeded, since Creation.

    You’re right on this one. Abortion is not only carried out, it’s legal, a form of hatred against the most vulnerable.

    The LINK below gives the numbers of abortions around the world.

    Number of Abortions – Abortion Counters

    Each real-time abortion counter is based on the most current statistics* for the number of abortions in the US & the number of abortions Worldwide.

    http://www.numberofabortions.com/

    Watch the numbers change on the link. Every single time, a little one is snuffed out.

  • Grace

    Jim @34 “Hundreds of millions of people (at least) perished in the last century from war, disease, starvation, political terror, and abortion (50 million in American alone since 1973). Suffering on this scale has never been approached, much less exceeded, since Creation.

    You’re right on this one. Abortion is not only carried out, it’s legal, a form of hatred against the most vulnerable.

    The LINK below gives the numbers of abortions around the world.

    Number of Abortions – Abortion Counters

    Each real-time abortion counter is based on the most current statistics* for the number of abortions in the US & the number of abortions Worldwide.

    http://www.numberofabortions.com/

    Watch the numbers change on the link. Every single time, a little one is snuffed out.

  • Jim Hamilton

    “You mean like those crazy folks who pick the 20th century?”

    I don’t mind you calling me crazy, actually. I know what I believe and why I believe it. When I think of the 50 million unborn babies that have been slaughtered in this country, I have no doubt whatsoever that the Son’s second Advent is very near indeed. Much more than gay marriage, the monstrous sin of abortion is a clear sin that this nation has given itself over to Satan and cursed God. I look forward to the return of the Son with eager anticipation and I pray that those who mock Him and His judgement will come to repentance and faith while it is yet day.

  • Jim Hamilton

    “You mean like those crazy folks who pick the 20th century?”

    I don’t mind you calling me crazy, actually. I know what I believe and why I believe it. When I think of the 50 million unborn babies that have been slaughtered in this country, I have no doubt whatsoever that the Son’s second Advent is very near indeed. Much more than gay marriage, the monstrous sin of abortion is a clear sin that this nation has given itself over to Satan and cursed God. I look forward to the return of the Son with eager anticipation and I pray that those who mock Him and His judgement will come to repentance and faith while it is yet day.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Ahh, dumb arguments sound soooo much better when wrapped in piety.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Ahh, dumb arguments sound soooo much better when wrapped in piety.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @42 Grace

    I’ve thought a lot about what you said to me the other day regarding poor people. You were right and I was wrong. My words were very harsh and unfeeling. I am grateful to God for the gifts he’s given me; I certainly am undeserving of them. I should have a great deal more compassion for people who are suffering, whatever the cause of that suffering. Again, I was very wrong in my attitude. Thank you for helping me to see that.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @42 Grace

    I’ve thought a lot about what you said to me the other day regarding poor people. You were right and I was wrong. My words were very harsh and unfeeling. I am grateful to God for the gifts he’s given me; I certainly am undeserving of them. I should have a great deal more compassion for people who are suffering, whatever the cause of that suffering. Again, I was very wrong in my attitude. Thank you for helping me to see that.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @44

    Are you a Christian?

  • Jim Hamilton

    @44

    Are you a Christian?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim, why do you ask?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim, why do you ask?

  • Grace

    KK @41 No, I call people crazy who refuse to look at the facts, who cannot understand the simple math (6.7% > 2.9% for instance) because they are intellectually, and more importantly, emotionally invested in a scheme that cannot be proven, and is actually easily falsifiable.”

    Abortion can be proven, not only in the United States, but around the world.

    Calling people “crazy” because you don’t agree with them, or your facts don’t coincide with theres facts isn’t wise, it’s nothing but an emotional outburst.

  • Grace

    KK @41 No, I call people crazy who refuse to look at the facts, who cannot understand the simple math (6.7% > 2.9% for instance) because they are intellectually, and more importantly, emotionally invested in a scheme that cannot be proven, and is actually easily falsifiable.”

    Abortion can be proven, not only in the United States, but around the world.

    Calling people “crazy” because you don’t agree with them, or your facts don’t coincide with theres facts isn’t wise, it’s nothing but an emotional outburst.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, as usual, you have the wrong end of the stick. The point is not whether abortion happens, and many innocents are not with us because of it. That is certainly true. The point is that horrors – war, famine, abortion, disease have been with us throughout history, and to pick the most recent ones as proving that we are “living in the last days” is a very ignorant argument. If you’d follow my mention of the horrific decades around the mid-14th Century, you’d see the point – massive wars, pestilence, and possibly the worst point in Church history (the Great Schism).

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Grace, as usual, you have the wrong end of the stick. The point is not whether abortion happens, and many innocents are not with us because of it. That is certainly true. The point is that horrors – war, famine, abortion, disease have been with us throughout history, and to pick the most recent ones as proving that we are “living in the last days” is a very ignorant argument. If you’d follow my mention of the horrific decades around the mid-14th Century, you’d see the point – massive wars, pestilence, and possibly the worst point in Church history (the Great Schism).

  • Jim Hamilton

    @49

    I can’t “prove” we’re in the Last Days to you or anyone else. I wouldn’t want to. As I said, I know what I believe and why I believe it. You can choose to believe that the mid-14th century was “worse” than the present. I don’t agree with you. Calling me dumb and crazy doesn’t bolster your argument.

    In my view, the abortion holocaust is definitive proof to me that human society has reached a new (and hopefully final) low. How many millions of Chinese babies have been slaughtered in addition to the at least 50 million American babies (just since 1973)? The numbers stagger the imagination.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @49

    I can’t “prove” we’re in the Last Days to you or anyone else. I wouldn’t want to. As I said, I know what I believe and why I believe it. You can choose to believe that the mid-14th century was “worse” than the present. I don’t agree with you. Calling me dumb and crazy doesn’t bolster your argument.

    In my view, the abortion holocaust is definitive proof to me that human society has reached a new (and hopefully final) low. How many millions of Chinese babies have been slaughtered in addition to the at least 50 million American babies (just since 1973)? The numbers stagger the imagination.

  • CRB

    @Klasie Kraalogies 31

    “Ignorance of history” – Precisely what Hanson talks about in the Youtube video. He said that, “History is the most important of all disciplines.”

  • CRB

    @Klasie Kraalogies 31

    “Ignorance of history” – Precisely what Hanson talks about in the Youtube video. He said that, “History is the most important of all disciplines.”

  • Jim Hamilton

    Grace, I just took a look at the abortion link you provided. My initial reaction was to hope that the numbers were just not true. But, unfortunately, I’m sure they’re pretty accurate. Absolutely horrifying. Over a billion lives since just 1980. To me, one of the most obscene aspects of this holocaust is how matter-of-factly it’s treated. These murders go on hour after hour, day after day, and it hardly causes a blip. In fact, our society is so perverse that those of us who oppose the murder of children are considered “anti-women” and “uncaring.” I went to the Christmas program at our church yesterday afternoon. My daughter was an angel. When I watched those kids celebrating the birth of our Savior I was reminded of all the millions and millions of little babies who have been denied the chance to come to the waters of Baptism by their own mothers. The Devil must rejoice at the slaughter. What a horror. What a sinful, wretched world this is.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Grace, I just took a look at the abortion link you provided. My initial reaction was to hope that the numbers were just not true. But, unfortunately, I’m sure they’re pretty accurate. Absolutely horrifying. Over a billion lives since just 1980. To me, one of the most obscene aspects of this holocaust is how matter-of-factly it’s treated. These murders go on hour after hour, day after day, and it hardly causes a blip. In fact, our society is so perverse that those of us who oppose the murder of children are considered “anti-women” and “uncaring.” I went to the Christmas program at our church yesterday afternoon. My daughter was an angel. When I watched those kids celebrating the birth of our Savior I was reminded of all the millions and millions of little babies who have been denied the chance to come to the waters of Baptism by their own mothers. The Devil must rejoice at the slaughter. What a horror. What a sinful, wretched world this is.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim, crazy and dumb refers to ignoring facts. You say – this is bad, because of death totals. So I show a death total that is worse than what you said. Then you say:

    I knew that someone would pick an arbitrary point in history and attempt to “prove” that things were worse then by demonstrating that as matter of population percentage more people died from this or that, blah, blah, blah.

    ..proving that the facts to the contrary have nothing to do with the matter for you.

    Anyway, talking about China – you know what happened to girls prior to the 20th Century (not that he wasn’t a great killer himself)? They were often left in temples for wild animals to eat alive, because they weren’t wanted. Or their feet were bound, in a most painful manner, because it was seen as “sexy” (read Gladys Aylward).

    Mankind has many ways with which to express his vileness. We could even go back to Rome, or earlier, and see the vile things man did to man.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim, crazy and dumb refers to ignoring facts. You say – this is bad, because of death totals. So I show a death total that is worse than what you said. Then you say:

    I knew that someone would pick an arbitrary point in history and attempt to “prove” that things were worse then by demonstrating that as matter of population percentage more people died from this or that, blah, blah, blah.

    ..proving that the facts to the contrary have nothing to do with the matter for you.

    Anyway, talking about China – you know what happened to girls prior to the 20th Century (not that he wasn’t a great killer himself)? They were often left in temples for wild animals to eat alive, because they weren’t wanted. Or their feet were bound, in a most painful manner, because it was seen as “sexy” (read Gladys Aylward).

    Mankind has many ways with which to express his vileness. We could even go back to Rome, or earlier, and see the vile things man did to man.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim, can I repeat my question @ 47?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim, can I repeat my question @ 47?

  • Grace

    KK @49 → → ” The point is that horrors – war, famine, abortion, disease have been with us throughout history, and to pick the most recent ones as proving that we are “living in the last days” is a very ignorant argument.”

    You might want to re-think “ignorant” before you sling it around!

    “living in the last days”

    You nor I know when the LORD will return. Many people do believe we are “living in the last days” – that doesn’t mean they are making a prediction (prophecy) – It means they observe the times, and think perhaps we are in the last days.

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:3


    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

    7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    2 Timothy 3

    Jim asked you @46 if you were a Christian – you didn’t answer but asked, @47 “Jim, why do you ask?” Strange you avoid answering.

    Many who are non-Christians are pro-abortion, there are those who claim to be Christian Believers who are pro-choice. All too often they scoff at the horrific numbers of infants who have been slaughtered.

    KK @53 → → “Jim, crazy and dumb refers to ignoring facts. You say – this is bad, because of death totals.”

    Perhaps your English classes avoided definition of words, or you’re very used to slinging them around like a stick in the air!

    dumb definition
    a. Lacking the power of speech. Used of animals and inanimate objects.
    b. Often Offensive Incapable of using speech; mute. Used of humans. See Usage Note at mute.
    2. Temporarily speechless, as with shock or fear: I was dumb with disbelief.
    3. Unwilling to speak; taciturn.
    4. Not expressed or articulated in sounds or words: dumb resentment.
    5. Nautical Not self-propelling.
    6. Conspicuously unintelligent; stupid: dumb officials; a dumb decision.
    7. Unintentional; haphazard:

    crazy definition
    1. Affected with madness; insane.
    2. Informal Departing from proportion or moderation, especially:
    a. Possessed by enthusiasm or excitement: The crowd at the game went crazy.
    b. Immoderately fond; infatuated: was crazy about boys.
    c. Intensely involved or preoccupied: is crazy about cars and racing.
    d. Foolish or impractical; senseless: a crazy scheme for making quick money.

  • Grace

    KK @49 → → ” The point is that horrors – war, famine, abortion, disease have been with us throughout history, and to pick the most recent ones as proving that we are “living in the last days” is a very ignorant argument.”

    You might want to re-think “ignorant” before you sling it around!

    “living in the last days”

    You nor I know when the LORD will return. Many people do believe we are “living in the last days” – that doesn’t mean they are making a prediction (prophecy) – It means they observe the times, and think perhaps we are in the last days.

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:3


    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

    7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    2 Timothy 3

    Jim asked you @46 if you were a Christian – you didn’t answer but asked, @47 “Jim, why do you ask?” Strange you avoid answering.

    Many who are non-Christians are pro-abortion, there are those who claim to be Christian Believers who are pro-choice. All too often they scoff at the horrific numbers of infants who have been slaughtered.

    KK @53 → → “Jim, crazy and dumb refers to ignoring facts. You say – this is bad, because of death totals.”

    Perhaps your English classes avoided definition of words, or you’re very used to slinging them around like a stick in the air!

    dumb definition
    a. Lacking the power of speech. Used of animals and inanimate objects.
    b. Often Offensive Incapable of using speech; mute. Used of humans. See Usage Note at mute.
    2. Temporarily speechless, as with shock or fear: I was dumb with disbelief.
    3. Unwilling to speak; taciturn.
    4. Not expressed or articulated in sounds or words: dumb resentment.
    5. Nautical Not self-propelling.
    6. Conspicuously unintelligent; stupid: dumb officials; a dumb decision.
    7. Unintentional; haphazard:

    crazy definition
    1. Affected with madness; insane.
    2. Informal Departing from proportion or moderation, especially:
    a. Possessed by enthusiasm or excitement: The crowd at the game went crazy.
    b. Immoderately fond; infatuated: was crazy about boys.
    c. Intensely involved or preoccupied: is crazy about cars and racing.
    d. Foolish or impractical; senseless: a crazy scheme for making quick money.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @54

    No, thanks. I don’t want to converse with you anymore.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @54

    No, thanks. I don’t want to converse with you anymore.

  • Grace

    → →KK @54 “Jim, can I repeat my question @ 47?”

    Why not answer the question Jim asked?

  • Grace

    → →KK @54 “Jim, can I repeat my question @ 47?”

    Why not answer the question Jim asked?

  • Jim Hamilton

    Grace, I haven’t responded to Klasie’s question because I don’t think anything positive or useful can come out of it. Maybe I’m wrong, but there it is.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Grace, I haven’t responded to Klasie’s question because I don’t think anything positive or useful can come out of it. Maybe I’m wrong, but there it is.

  • Norman Teigen

    Wow, the crazies have come out on this topic.

  • Norman Teigen

    Wow, the crazies have come out on this topic.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    There you’ve done it, Norman. Fear the wrath to come :)

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    There you’ve done it, Norman. Fear the wrath to come :)

  • SAL

    We’re in an age of great power and technology. That empowers humanity to create more evil and pain than ever before. My part of the world has declining living standards but that’s not what worries me.

    What worries me is that the traditional restraints on our evil are gone and that incredibly horrible things can occur that we never had the power to do before. The Western world abandoning virtue and morality makes this a lot easier to envision.

  • SAL

    We’re in an age of great power and technology. That empowers humanity to create more evil and pain than ever before. My part of the world has declining living standards but that’s not what worries me.

    What worries me is that the traditional restraints on our evil are gone and that incredibly horrible things can occur that we never had the power to do before. The Western world abandoning virtue and morality makes this a lot easier to envision.

  • SAL

    #59 I suppose the proper response to discouragement is to shut up and leave the happy people alone?

  • SAL

    #59 I suppose the proper response to discouragement is to shut up and leave the happy people alone?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SAL: Traditional restraints. Have you ever read a history of say eighteenth century Britain? The debauchery, drunkenness and corruption everywhere? The early days of Australia? Examples abound….

    The one thing different now is that because of mass communication, we might be more aware of all the evil around us. Pity we are ignorant as always about the evil within us.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SAL: Traditional restraints. Have you ever read a history of say eighteenth century Britain? The debauchery, drunkenness and corruption everywhere? The early days of Australia? Examples abound….

    The one thing different now is that because of mass communication, we might be more aware of all the evil around us. Pity we are ignorant as always about the evil within us.

  • Jim Hamilton

    SAL @61

    That’s a good point. As we continue to decay and our technological might grows, the potential for chaos is unlimited.

  • Jim Hamilton

    SAL @61

    That’s a good point. As we continue to decay and our technological might grows, the potential for chaos is unlimited.

  • SAL

    KK: “Have you ever read a history of say eighteenth century Britain?”

    Yes. So what? The lack of virtue is seen in what we’re willing to do. Given the right motivations we’d make people from the Georgian era shudder. We have more imagination to create and more power to inflict great evil.

  • SAL

    KK: “Have you ever read a history of say eighteenth century Britain?”

    Yes. So what? The lack of virtue is seen in what we’re willing to do. Given the right motivations we’d make people from the Georgian era shudder. We have more imagination to create and more power to inflict great evil.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim at 64 – the potential for good also increases, btw (with technology).

    The reason I react so strongly to this theme is that it is VERY obvious that an overarching narrative is driving the interpretation and accompanying selection of facts and phenomena. IE, there is a fundamental bias in the interpretation. That narrative cannot be conclusively proven from the facts, therefore the facts are interpreted & selected to prove the narrative, which then drives the whole thing. This is either stupid, or dishonest.

    I’ve seen people’s lives being destroyed through this “I can’t hear you, blah blah blah” approach. It is vile.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Jim at 64 – the potential for good also increases, btw (with technology).

    The reason I react so strongly to this theme is that it is VERY obvious that an overarching narrative is driving the interpretation and accompanying selection of facts and phenomena. IE, there is a fundamental bias in the interpretation. That narrative cannot be conclusively proven from the facts, therefore the facts are interpreted & selected to prove the narrative, which then drives the whole thing. This is either stupid, or dishonest.

    I’ve seen people’s lives being destroyed through this “I can’t hear you, blah blah blah” approach. It is vile.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I give up. People will see what they want to see.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I give up. People will see what they want to see.

  • Grace

    Jim @58

    I agree with you – – There is something wrong here.

    A NEWS piece just came across:

    Judge finds NC ‘Choose Life’ plates unconstitutional
    Posted on: 10:40 am, December 10, 2012, by Joe Borlik,

    RALEIGH, N.C. – “A federal judge has ruled it is unconstitutional for North Carolina to issue pro-life license plates unless the state offers similar plates supporting abortion rights.

    U.S. District Court Judge James C. Fox ruled on Friday that North Carolina cannot produce or distribute the “Choose Life” plate.

    Judge Fox concluded, “The State’s offering of a Choose Life license plate in the absence of a pro-choice plate constitutes viewpoint discrimination in violation of the First Amendment.”

    http://myfox8.com/2012/12/10/judge-finds-nc-choose-life-plates-unconstitutional/

    The LORD must be very angered at mans hatefulness to the unborn.

  • Grace

    Jim @58

    I agree with you – – There is something wrong here.

    A NEWS piece just came across:

    Judge finds NC ‘Choose Life’ plates unconstitutional
    Posted on: 10:40 am, December 10, 2012, by Joe Borlik,

    RALEIGH, N.C. – “A federal judge has ruled it is unconstitutional for North Carolina to issue pro-life license plates unless the state offers similar plates supporting abortion rights.

    U.S. District Court Judge James C. Fox ruled on Friday that North Carolina cannot produce or distribute the “Choose Life” plate.

    Judge Fox concluded, “The State’s offering of a Choose Life license plate in the absence of a pro-choice plate constitutes viewpoint discrimination in violation of the First Amendment.”

    http://myfox8.com/2012/12/10/judge-finds-nc-choose-life-plates-unconstitutional/

    The LORD must be very angered at mans hatefulness to the unborn.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    “Viewpoint discrimination?”

    What?

    Where is that addressed in the First Amendment, or anywhere in the US Constitution?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    “Viewpoint discrimination?”

    What?

    Where is that addressed in the First Amendment, or anywhere in the US Constitution?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    To get back to Veith’s question, if only for a moment, I have no clue how this will pan out in the Supreme Court. They’ve kind of been all over the map for me in the past, oh, decade or so. I guess I’d be surprised if they didn’t rule in favor of same-sex marriage (or at least moved that direction), but, like I said, I’ve been surprised by them before.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    To get back to Veith’s question, if only for a moment, I have no clue how this will pan out in the Supreme Court. They’ve kind of been all over the map for me in the past, oh, decade or so. I guess I’d be surprised if they didn’t rule in favor of same-sex marriage (or at least moved that direction), but, like I said, I’ve been surprised by them before.

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Before abortion there was baby farming:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_farming

  • http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Contemporary-English-Version-CEV-Bible/ sg

    Before abortion there was baby farming:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_farming

  • Tom Hering

    Jim may be right that the return of Christ is near. I certainly hope so! My problem, and I suspect Klasie’s, is with Jim’s signs. Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to watch for gay marriage or an explosion of technology? Christ specifically points to wars, rumors of war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes. Was Our Lord being kind of sloppy about the signs? Did He forget to tell us about some really important stuff? Are His followers, 2000 years later, more knowledgeable observers of the times than He was?

  • Tom Hering

    Jim may be right that the return of Christ is near. I certainly hope so! My problem, and I suspect Klasie’s, is with Jim’s signs. Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to watch for gay marriage or an explosion of technology? Christ specifically points to wars, rumors of war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes. Was Our Lord being kind of sloppy about the signs? Did He forget to tell us about some really important stuff? Are His followers, 2000 years later, more knowledgeable observers of the times than He was?

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Wars, rumors of war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes.
    Apparently we’ve been in the last times since, well, forever.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    Wars, rumors of war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes.
    Apparently we’ve been in the last times since, well, forever.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Still, it’s clear some people just want to be Drama Queens. Honestly, people.

    the Roman Catholic church, LCMS, WELS etc will be forced to perform gay “marriage”ceremonies or they don’t have the right to exist any more

    (@3). Right. Just like those same churches are forced to accept divorced priests and pastors by threat of law. Oh, wait …

    Mary (@8), why hasn’t your pastor already stopped signing legal marriage certificates? He could have done that at any time. Especially after most states ran with “the idea that marriage can be anything we decide” and instituted no-fault divorce. For that matter, if you think your legal marriage will be tarnished by gays being allowed to legally marry, why not get legally divorced, right now? You can, you know. You can still have a “spiritual marriage” to your husband.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Still, it’s clear some people just want to be Drama Queens. Honestly, people.

    the Roman Catholic church, LCMS, WELS etc will be forced to perform gay “marriage”ceremonies or they don’t have the right to exist any more

    (@3). Right. Just like those same churches are forced to accept divorced priests and pastors by threat of law. Oh, wait …

    Mary (@8), why hasn’t your pastor already stopped signing legal marriage certificates? He could have done that at any time. Especially after most states ran with “the idea that marriage can be anything we decide” and instituted no-fault divorce. For that matter, if you think your legal marriage will be tarnished by gays being allowed to legally marry, why not get legally divorced, right now? You can, you know. You can still have a “spiritual marriage” to your husband.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 70 “I guess I’d be surprised if they didn’t rule in favor of same-sex marriage (or at least moved that direction), but, like I said, I’ve been surprised by them before.”

    I believe it can go either way. John Roberts shocked many of us not too long ago regarding most of Obama’s Affordable Care Act, by voting, making it 5-4.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 70 “I guess I’d be surprised if they didn’t rule in favor of same-sex marriage (or at least moved that direction), but, like I said, I’ve been surprised by them before.”

    I believe it can go either way. John Roberts shocked many of us not too long ago regarding most of Obama’s Affordable Care Act, by voting, making it 5-4.

  • Grace

    Tom @72 ” Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to watch for gay marriage or an explosion of technology? Christ specifically points to wars, rumors of war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes.”

    There is much more stated in Scripture, than what you’ve posted above. I posted some of this @55

     

    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

     

    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    2 Timothy 3

  • Grace

    Tom @72 ” Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to watch for gay marriage or an explosion of technology? Christ specifically points to wars, rumors of war, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes.”

    There is much more stated in Scripture, than what you’ve posted above. I posted some of this @55

     

    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

     

    1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

    3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    2 Timothy 3

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Exactly Mike! And, as I have highlighted, some of those past pestilences were pretty damn horrific.

    How’s this for pestilence and horror:

    When graveyards filled up, bodies at Avignon were thrown into the Rhone until mass burial pits were dug for dumping the corpses. In London in such pits corpses piled up in layers until they overflowed. Everywhere reports speak of the sick dying too fast for the living to bury. Corpses were dragged out of homes and left in front of doorways. Morning light revealed new piles of bodies. In Florence the dead were gathered up by the Compagnia della Misericordia – founded in 1244 to care for the sick – whose members wore red robes and hoods masking the face except for the eyes. When their efforts failed, the dead lay putrid in the streets for days at a time. When no coffins were to be had, the bodies were laid on boards, two or three at once, to be carried to graveyards or common pits. Families dumped their own relatives into the pits, or buried them so hastily and thinly “that dogs dragged them forth and devoured their bodies.”

    From : http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/Plaguedescription.html

    and yes, shortly before that:

    In the years 1315 to 1317, a catastrophic famine, known as the Great Famine, struck much of northwest Europe. It was arguably the worst in European history, reducing the population by perhaps more than 10 percent.[15]

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

    Oh, not to forget the description – this one by Boccaccio (also on the wiki page):

    “In men and women alike it first betrayed itself by the emergence of certain tumours in the groin or armpits, some of which grew as large as a common apple, others as an egg…From the two said parts of the body this deadly gavocciolo soon began to propagate and spread itself in all directions indifferently; after which the form of the malady began to change, black spots or livid making their appearance in many cases on the arm or the thigh or elsewhere, now few and large, now minute and numerous. As the gavocciolo had been and still was an infallible token of approaching death, such also were these spots on whomsoever they showed themselves.”

    Shall we quote the horror of the Vikings descending onto Europe?Or, for those theologically inclined, the spread and power of Arianism, denying true doctrine, all mover the Early Church. Or the horrors of slavery through millenia?

    Or the fact that many, many theologians, from the Church Fathers through Luther and beyond firmly believed that they were very close to the end of days?

    The claim that our time is the worst, that we finally know it is the end strikes me not only as profoundly ignorant of history, but filled with a weird chronological snobbery.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Exactly Mike! And, as I have highlighted, some of those past pestilences were pretty damn horrific.

    How’s this for pestilence and horror:

    When graveyards filled up, bodies at Avignon were thrown into the Rhone until mass burial pits were dug for dumping the corpses. In London in such pits corpses piled up in layers until they overflowed. Everywhere reports speak of the sick dying too fast for the living to bury. Corpses were dragged out of homes and left in front of doorways. Morning light revealed new piles of bodies. In Florence the dead were gathered up by the Compagnia della Misericordia – founded in 1244 to care for the sick – whose members wore red robes and hoods masking the face except for the eyes. When their efforts failed, the dead lay putrid in the streets for days at a time. When no coffins were to be had, the bodies were laid on boards, two or three at once, to be carried to graveyards or common pits. Families dumped their own relatives into the pits, or buried them so hastily and thinly “that dogs dragged them forth and devoured their bodies.”

    From : http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/Plaguedescription.html

    and yes, shortly before that:

    In the years 1315 to 1317, a catastrophic famine, known as the Great Famine, struck much of northwest Europe. It was arguably the worst in European history, reducing the population by perhaps more than 10 percent.[15]

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

    Oh, not to forget the description – this one by Boccaccio (also on the wiki page):

    “In men and women alike it first betrayed itself by the emergence of certain tumours in the groin or armpits, some of which grew as large as a common apple, others as an egg…From the two said parts of the body this deadly gavocciolo soon began to propagate and spread itself in all directions indifferently; after which the form of the malady began to change, black spots or livid making their appearance in many cases on the arm or the thigh or elsewhere, now few and large, now minute and numerous. As the gavocciolo had been and still was an infallible token of approaching death, such also were these spots on whomsoever they showed themselves.”

    Shall we quote the horror of the Vikings descending onto Europe?Or, for those theologically inclined, the spread and power of Arianism, denying true doctrine, all mover the Early Church. Or the horrors of slavery through millenia?

    Or the fact that many, many theologians, from the Church Fathers through Luther and beyond firmly believed that they were very close to the end of days?

    The claim that our time is the worst, that we finally know it is the end strikes me not only as profoundly ignorant of history, but filled with a weird chronological snobbery.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sorry about the messed-up quotes there.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Sorry about the messed-up quotes there.

  • Grace

    Tom @72 “Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to watch for gay marriage”

    2 Timothy 3:3
    Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    That would apply to homosexuality – see Romans 1

  • Grace

    Tom @72 “Where in Scripture does Christ tell us to watch for gay marriage”

    2 Timothy 3:3
    Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

    That would apply to homosexuality – see Romans 1

  • SAL

    I hope Christ is returning and I wouldn’t be surprised by it. However I don’t take the decline of our culture and virtue to suggest Christ must return.

    All it suggests is that we’re living in a twilight era where our civilization will mostly decline. That’s a scary experience but it’s occurred many times in the past millenium.

    What I don’t get is the happy people with their pollyannish optimism. I’m not certain where it’s coming from.

  • SAL

    I hope Christ is returning and I wouldn’t be surprised by it. However I don’t take the decline of our culture and virtue to suggest Christ must return.

    All it suggests is that we’re living in a twilight era where our civilization will mostly decline. That’s a scary experience but it’s occurred many times in the past millenium.

    What I don’t get is the happy people with their pollyannish optimism. I’m not certain where it’s coming from.

  • CRB

    I don’t believe that “gay marriage” is a “sign” of the last days, but it sure seems that we are living in the time Paul speaks of re:
    “except there come a falling away first”
    I recently heard cited as a stat, “50 churches a day in the U.S. are closing.” It may have been mentioned on,The Lutheran Hour, but I’m not sure.

    Anyway, something to think about and to make sure we cling to Christ and Him crucified until His return.

  • CRB

    I don’t believe that “gay marriage” is a “sign” of the last days, but it sure seems that we are living in the time Paul speaks of re:
    “except there come a falling away first”
    I recently heard cited as a stat, “50 churches a day in the U.S. are closing.” It may have been mentioned on,The Lutheran Hour, but I’m not sure.

    Anyway, something to think about and to make sure we cling to Christ and Him crucified until His return.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SAL, anybody here suffering from polyanna syndrome?

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    SAL, anybody here suffering from polyanna syndrome?

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, re: Scripture quotes.

    Quote 1: Point me to that man of sin, and son of perdition. I’ll accept that sign.

    Quote 2: What part of all that wasn’t the case in Paul’s own day? Or are you saying it’s much more the case today? If so, how have you measured the increase? Abortion and infanticide, for example, were quite common in the Roman Empire. As were homosexual relationships. (Some, back then, approved of such things. Others, including non-Christians, disapproved. But there you are. And here we all are, still. Despite 2000 years of such things. So maybe they’re not the new and extraordinary signs you and Jim make them out to be.)

  • Tom Hering

    Grace, re: Scripture quotes.

    Quote 1: Point me to that man of sin, and son of perdition. I’ll accept that sign.

    Quote 2: What part of all that wasn’t the case in Paul’s own day? Or are you saying it’s much more the case today? If so, how have you measured the increase? Abortion and infanticide, for example, were quite common in the Roman Empire. As were homosexual relationships. (Some, back then, approved of such things. Others, including non-Christians, disapproved. But there you are. And here we all are, still. Despite 2000 years of such things. So maybe they’re not the new and extraordinary signs you and Jim make them out to be.)

  • Grace

    The Bible states clearly regarding “falling away”

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

    Our country has fallen so far away from any sort of morals, that would include homosexuality right out in the open – paraded around in countless cities. HIV/AIDS, STD’S. Doctors report that over 60% of young women, meaning teens and older have STDS, some have NO CURE.

    Most people, and some on this very blog, are numb when discussing abortion – to them it’s just part of our world, statistics of billions of infants slaughtered – however it’s become COMMON PLACE, it doesn’t have any impact on the majority any longer.

    20 to 25 years ago, this would have been appalling – to even think of homosexuals getting married – It was once before outlawed, a very long time ago. Same-sex marriage was outlawed on December 16, 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans. This law specifically outlaws marriages between men and reads as follows:

    “When a man marries and is about to offer himself to men in womanly fashion [quum vir nubit in feminam viris porrecturam], what does he wish, when sex has lost all its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed to another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be, guilty may be subjected to exquisite punishment.

    Theodosian Code 9.7.3

  • Grace

    The Bible states clearly regarding “falling away”

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

    Our country has fallen so far away from any sort of morals, that would include homosexuality right out in the open – paraded around in countless cities. HIV/AIDS, STD’S. Doctors report that over 60% of young women, meaning teens and older have STDS, some have NO CURE.

    Most people, and some on this very blog, are numb when discussing abortion – to them it’s just part of our world, statistics of billions of infants slaughtered – however it’s become COMMON PLACE, it doesn’t have any impact on the majority any longer.

    20 to 25 years ago, this would have been appalling – to even think of homosexuals getting married – It was once before outlawed, a very long time ago. Same-sex marriage was outlawed on December 16, 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans. This law specifically outlaws marriages between men and reads as follows:

    “When a man marries and is about to offer himself to men in womanly fashion [quum vir nubit in feminam viris porrecturam], what does he wish, when sex has lost all its significance; when the crime is one which it is not profitable to know; when Venus is changed to another form; when love is sought and not found? We order the statutes to arise, the laws to be armed with an avenging sword, that those infamous persons who are now, or who hereafter may be, guilty may be subjected to exquisite punishment.

    Theodosian Code 9.7.3

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I cannot point you to the man of sin. But one day, it will be obvious as to who he is.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I cannot point you to the man of sin. But one day, it will be obvious as to who he is.

  • Tom Hering

    Our country has fallen so far away from any sort of morals … (@ 84)

    Our country is hardly unique in that respect, either today or in the past 2000 years of history. So I don’t find your point compelling.

    I cannot point you to the man of sin. (@ 85)

    Then don’t try to trouble me about the Last Day. The scripture you quoted @ 76 makes it clear you shouldn’t.

  • Tom Hering

    Our country has fallen so far away from any sort of morals … (@ 84)

    Our country is hardly unique in that respect, either today or in the past 2000 years of history. So I don’t find your point compelling.

    I cannot point you to the man of sin. (@ 85)

    Then don’t try to trouble me about the Last Day. The scripture you quoted @ 76 makes it clear you shouldn’t.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I have no interest in an endless argument with you. We disagree, which is often.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I have no interest in an endless argument with you. We disagree, which is often.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom @86

    Christians aren’t troubled by the Last Day. We welcome it. Unbelievers should be very troubled by it. I hope you’re not among them.

    Nobody is claiming that war, disease, famine, etc. are new or unique to this historical moment. The point is that there will be a Little Season immediately preceding the Son’s Second Advent where all these terrors will increase in frequency and severity. In my view, we’re in that Little Season. I could be wrong. Only God knows. But, then again, I could be right.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom @86

    Christians aren’t troubled by the Last Day. We welcome it. Unbelievers should be very troubled by it. I hope you’re not among them.

    Nobody is claiming that war, disease, famine, etc. are new or unique to this historical moment. The point is that there will be a Little Season immediately preceding the Son’s Second Advent where all these terrors will increase in frequency and severity. In my view, we’re in that Little Season. I could be wrong. Only God knows. But, then again, I could be right.

  • Tom Hering

    Christians aren’t troubled by the Last Day. We welcome it. (@ 88)

    No, we aren’t troubled by it, and indeed we do welcome it. In the meantime, like Luther, we plant a tree – and preach and sprinkle and distribute the Gospel. We Lutherans do, anyways. (FYI: according to Luther’s reckoning, in his Chronicle or Calculation of the Years of the World, we have about thirty years left. Luther’s eschatology isn’t a part of confessional Lutheran teaching, but it’s interesting stuff, none the less.)

    Unbelievers should be very troubled by it. I hope you’re not among them.

    Why would you hope such a thing, when you could just give my confession of faith the benefit of the doubt?

  • Tom Hering

    Christians aren’t troubled by the Last Day. We welcome it. (@ 88)

    No, we aren’t troubled by it, and indeed we do welcome it. In the meantime, like Luther, we plant a tree – and preach and sprinkle and distribute the Gospel. We Lutherans do, anyways. (FYI: according to Luther’s reckoning, in his Chronicle or Calculation of the Years of the World, we have about thirty years left. Luther’s eschatology isn’t a part of confessional Lutheran teaching, but it’s interesting stuff, none the less.)

    Unbelievers should be very troubled by it. I hope you’re not among them.

    Why would you hope such a thing, when you could just give my confession of faith the benefit of the doubt?

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom @89

    Why would I assume you’re a Christian? I have no idea who you are or what you believe. Why would I have any clue what your “confession of faith” is?

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom @89

    Why would I assume you’re a Christian? I have no idea who you are or what you believe. Why would I have any clue what your “confession of faith” is?

  • Tom Hering

    Why wouldn’t you assume I’m a Christian – just from the little you know of me here?

  • Tom Hering

    Why wouldn’t you assume I’m a Christian – just from the little you know of me here?

  • Jim Hamilton

    You seem pretty liberal to me. Most liberals are not Christian. That said, I don’t know anything about you. I have no idea what you are. You could be Christian; I hope you are. But lots of people claim to be Christian and clearly aren’t. Look at Obama.

  • Jim Hamilton

    You seem pretty liberal to me. Most liberals are not Christian. That said, I don’t know anything about you. I have no idea what you are. You could be Christian; I hope you are. But lots of people claim to be Christian and clearly aren’t. Look at Obama.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I NEVER “assume” someone is a Christian, unless they say they are. Often times people will ask someone if in fact they are a Christian, I do it, and so do others.

    Knowing another individual, for a day or two months, doesn’t mean you automatically know they are Christians. Conversations don’t always explore the real beliefs in another person, unless they make their faith known.

  • Grace

    Tom,

    I NEVER “assume” someone is a Christian, unless they say they are. Often times people will ask someone if in fact they are a Christian, I do it, and so do others.

    Knowing another individual, for a day or two months, doesn’t mean you automatically know they are Christians. Conversations don’t always explore the real beliefs in another person, unless they make their faith known.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jim, it really does seem that the reason you think the last century has been the worst is because it’s the only one with which you’re familiar. And, more to the point, you don’t seem terribly interested in learning about how bad things were before recent times.

    I mean, you guys do know that abortions weren’t invented in the past 100 years, right? The particular modern procedure was, of course, but women have been ingesting all kinds of things for centuries or millenia in order to murder their unborn children. To say nothing of what they did to their children after they were born. And it was legal! Such things are illegal now, at least for those fortunate enough to be born. And yet, none of this is considered by those who obviously are merely interested in promoting their own era as The Big One.

    Anyhow, I’m willing to bet Jim Hamilton’s not a Lutheran. Sounds more like a Baptist/Evangelical.

    And Grace, please. You’re getting all in a huff about Klasie not answering some question, when you yourself consistently refused — after being asked many, many times — to say whether you continued sinning or sinned willfully. So your complaints here ring a wee bit hypocritical.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jim, it really does seem that the reason you think the last century has been the worst is because it’s the only one with which you’re familiar. And, more to the point, you don’t seem terribly interested in learning about how bad things were before recent times.

    I mean, you guys do know that abortions weren’t invented in the past 100 years, right? The particular modern procedure was, of course, but women have been ingesting all kinds of things for centuries or millenia in order to murder their unborn children. To say nothing of what they did to their children after they were born. And it was legal! Such things are illegal now, at least for those fortunate enough to be born. And yet, none of this is considered by those who obviously are merely interested in promoting their own era as The Big One.

    Anyhow, I’m willing to bet Jim Hamilton’s not a Lutheran. Sounds more like a Baptist/Evangelical.

    And Grace, please. You’re getting all in a huff about Klasie not answering some question, when you yourself consistently refused — after being asked many, many times — to say whether you continued sinning or sinned willfully. So your complaints here ring a wee bit hypocritical.

  • Jim Hamilton

    I think many liberals honestly believe that they’re Christian. They’re not liars or intentionally deceitful. But they reject the exclusivity of the Son as the only way to the Father in a misguided attempt to be inclusive. In my view, a person who imbues Satanic lies like Islam with the same amount of legitimacy as the Holy Gospel is insulting God and placing his faith in faddish earthly notions of “diversity” rather than the Son alone.

  • Jim Hamilton

    I think many liberals honestly believe that they’re Christian. They’re not liars or intentionally deceitful. But they reject the exclusivity of the Son as the only way to the Father in a misguided attempt to be inclusive. In my view, a person who imbues Satanic lies like Islam with the same amount of legitimacy as the Holy Gospel is insulting God and placing his faith in faddish earthly notions of “diversity” rather than the Son alone.

  • Grace

    tODD,

    Of course I sin – It makes me sad when I sin, however I have a Savior I pray to all the time, everyday, for forgivness of my sins.

    There are times when I sin, knowing better. I pray for forgiveness just as it’s stated in the Bible, I will be forgiven.

    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    1 John 1

  • Grace

    tODD,

    Of course I sin – It makes me sad when I sin, however I have a Savior I pray to all the time, everyday, for forgivness of my sins.

    There are times when I sin, knowing better. I pray for forgiveness just as it’s stated in the Bible, I will be forgiven.

    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    1 John 1

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SAL (@65):

    Given the right motivations we’d make people from the Georgian era shudder.

    Ah, yes, those saintly folks of 18th-century Britain!

    You know, when slavery was still legal. When cavalry charged a crowd of 60,000 people demanding parliamentary reform, killing a dozen and injuring hundreds. When they invented pitchcapping:

    a form of torture devised by British forces in 18th century Ireland which was widely used against suspected rebels during the period of the 1798 Rebellion and during the Irish war of Independence. The process involved pouring hot pitch, or tar into a paper cap, which was then forced onto the victims head and allowed to cool. The pitchcap was then torn off, taking lumps of skin and flesh with it, which usually left the victim disfigured for life. Another variation involved adding turpentine or gunpowder to the pitchcap and then setting it on fire.

    Oh, but they had virtue back then, and didn’t have the imagination to inflict evil like we do.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    SAL (@65):

    Given the right motivations we’d make people from the Georgian era shudder.

    Ah, yes, those saintly folks of 18th-century Britain!

    You know, when slavery was still legal. When cavalry charged a crowd of 60,000 people demanding parliamentary reform, killing a dozen and injuring hundreds. When they invented pitchcapping:

    a form of torture devised by British forces in 18th century Ireland which was widely used against suspected rebels during the period of the 1798 Rebellion and during the Irish war of Independence. The process involved pouring hot pitch, or tar into a paper cap, which was then forced onto the victims head and allowed to cool. The pitchcap was then torn off, taking lumps of skin and flesh with it, which usually left the victim disfigured for life. Another variation involved adding turpentine or gunpowder to the pitchcap and then setting it on fire.

    Oh, but they had virtue back then, and didn’t have the imagination to inflict evil like we do.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @94

    Nobody has to agree with me on this. In my view, we’re in the very latter days before the Return of the Son. I could be totally wrong (though I sure hope not). If you want to call me stupid and uneducated, feel free! You wouldn’t be the first and I seriously doubt you’ll be the last (even today). But I know what I believe, sir, and why I believe it.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @94

    Nobody has to agree with me on this. In my view, we’re in the very latter days before the Return of the Son. I could be totally wrong (though I sure hope not). If you want to call me stupid and uneducated, feel free! You wouldn’t be the first and I seriously doubt you’ll be the last (even today). But I know what I believe, sir, and why I believe it.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Mike (@73):

    Apparently we’ve been in the last times since, well, forever.

    We have a winner! But some people want to feel their particular era is more special than others.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Mike (@73):

    Apparently we’ve been in the last times since, well, forever.

    We have a winner! But some people want to feel their particular era is more special than others.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 94

    YOU WROTE: “And Grace, please. You’re getting all in a huff about Klasie not answering some question, when you yourself consistently refused — after being asked many, many times — to say whether you continued sinning or sinned willfully. So your complaints here ring a wee bit hypocritical.”

    I’m not going to look through 333 posts to ‘try and see which one you might be referring to. Honestly tODD, that’s silly.

  • Grace

    tODD @ 94

    YOU WROTE: “And Grace, please. You’re getting all in a huff about Klasie not answering some question, when you yourself consistently refused — after being asked many, many times — to say whether you continued sinning or sinned willfully. So your complaints here ring a wee bit hypocritical.”

    I’m not going to look through 333 posts to ‘try and see which one you might be referring to. Honestly tODD, that’s silly.

  • Grace

    Jim,

    I don’t know when the LORD is returning, but it sure seems as though it’s not to far away. I cannot wait to see Jesus!

    Lot’s of prophecy regarding end times.

  • Grace

    Jim,

    I don’t know when the LORD is returning, but it sure seems as though it’s not to far away. I cannot wait to see Jesus!

    Lot’s of prophecy regarding end times.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @99

    What exactly are you arguing? It’s true that neither I nor anyone else can know for sure if these are the Last Days, but it’s equally true that you can’t know for certain that these aren’t the Last Days. In my view, these are the final gasps of the Little Season. The last century or so has been the worst we’ve ever had. Since only 1980, over 1 billion babies have been murdered by their own mothers. The most destructive wars in human history have been waged. I find these and other events dispositive. You don’t have to. But you certainly can’t say that I’m wrong. These very well may be the Latter Days. Only time will tell that.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @99

    What exactly are you arguing? It’s true that neither I nor anyone else can know for sure if these are the Last Days, but it’s equally true that you can’t know for certain that these aren’t the Last Days. In my view, these are the final gasps of the Little Season. The last century or so has been the worst we’ve ever had. Since only 1980, over 1 billion babies have been murdered by their own mothers. The most destructive wars in human history have been waged. I find these and other events dispositive. You don’t have to. But you certainly can’t say that I’m wrong. These very well may be the Latter Days. Only time will tell that.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Grace @101

    I agree with you. I never said I KNEW He was returning shortly. Obviously, I can’t know something like that. I would never claim to. I can, however, see the signs around me and draw my own conclusions.

    Did I tell you that after our conversation the other day about the poor, my wife and I made a much larger donation than usual to the local food bank here in Nashville. You really got me to thinking about that issue. I was real jerk about it. I’ve been so blessed.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Grace @101

    I agree with you. I never said I KNEW He was returning shortly. Obviously, I can’t know something like that. I would never claim to. I can, however, see the signs around me and draw my own conclusions.

    Did I tell you that after our conversation the other day about the poor, my wife and I made a much larger donation than usual to the local food bank here in Nashville. You really got me to thinking about that issue. I was real jerk about it. I’ve been so blessed.

  • Grace

    Jim,

    My husband and I have lost interest in Christmas presents. That’s not to say, we won’t buy any, but we certainly won’t be doing it as we did in the past.

    Looking around at the needy, the terrible plight some people deal with daily is heartbreaking. I don’t enjoy shopping for myself as I did, even 6 months ago, it makes me feel bad to think about the money I wasted.

    We are blessed Jim. We have Christ, most people do not believe, they are poorer than those without food, they have no Eternity with Christ our Savior. This Christmas has become very different for my husband and myself, it’s been a journey, one I wish had begun earlier.

    God bless you Jim and your wife.

  • Grace

    Jim,

    My husband and I have lost interest in Christmas presents. That’s not to say, we won’t buy any, but we certainly won’t be doing it as we did in the past.

    Looking around at the needy, the terrible plight some people deal with daily is heartbreaking. I don’t enjoy shopping for myself as I did, even 6 months ago, it makes me feel bad to think about the money I wasted.

    We are blessed Jim. We have Christ, most people do not believe, they are poorer than those without food, they have no Eternity with Christ our Savior. This Christmas has become very different for my husband and myself, it’s been a journey, one I wish had begun earlier.

    God bless you Jim and your wife.

  • dust

    It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to argue that the 20th has been the worst full century on record, in my humble opinion.

    Am not sure exactly how to keep score, but just the 2 World Wars, the 2 atomic bombs (which wiped out 100,000 souls in the blink of an eye, right), the holocaust (sp?), the Cultural purging of Mao in China, Stalin in the USSR, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Rwanda, not to mention the levels of pollution (global warming if you want to go there), over population and raping of the planet’s natural resources, etc. etc. to just name a few.

    Take note too friends, we didn’t even need to mention abortion and/or other kinds of depravity to make a somewhat reasonable case that the 20th is the worst ever, given a lack of exact data…if anyone has it all?

    Not to say this did not happen in other times (duh) but on surface and with the advancements in science and technology, seems the shear scale and scope would easily dwarf the scope and scale of other times? It’s a 2 edged sword…if we can do great things with all these geeky gadgets, we can do greater harm then too, eh?

    Finally, seems read somewhere that even the great Nietzsche was quoted as saying he thought the 20th century would be the worst and bloodiest of all? But, also added he thought the 21st would be even worse…..so much so even Superman can’t save it!

    As far as the end times…yes, it will happen in my life time, and yours too……it will be the very last thing you do :(

    But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory thru our Lord Jesus Christ :)

    cheers!

  • dust

    It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to argue that the 20th has been the worst full century on record, in my humble opinion.

    Am not sure exactly how to keep score, but just the 2 World Wars, the 2 atomic bombs (which wiped out 100,000 souls in the blink of an eye, right), the holocaust (sp?), the Cultural purging of Mao in China, Stalin in the USSR, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Rwanda, not to mention the levels of pollution (global warming if you want to go there), over population and raping of the planet’s natural resources, etc. etc. to just name a few.

    Take note too friends, we didn’t even need to mention abortion and/or other kinds of depravity to make a somewhat reasonable case that the 20th is the worst ever, given a lack of exact data…if anyone has it all?

    Not to say this did not happen in other times (duh) but on surface and with the advancements in science and technology, seems the shear scale and scope would easily dwarf the scope and scale of other times? It’s a 2 edged sword…if we can do great things with all these geeky gadgets, we can do greater harm then too, eh?

    Finally, seems read somewhere that even the great Nietzsche was quoted as saying he thought the 20th century would be the worst and bloodiest of all? But, also added he thought the 21st would be even worse…..so much so even Superman can’t save it!

    As far as the end times…yes, it will happen in my life time, and yours too……it will be the very last thing you do :(

    But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory thru our Lord Jesus Christ :)

    cheers!

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jim (@92):

    Most liberals are not Christian.

    Most conservatives aren’t Christian either. They call it the “narrow” road for a reason, Jim.

    But lots of people claim to be Christian and clearly aren’t. Look at Obama.

    It’s kind of odd seeing someone decrying people who “claim to be Christian” then choose to commit such an un-Christian act as you’ve done, Jim. Looks like you forgot one of the Commandments. To say nothing of our Lord’s proscription of judging people’s souls before His return. Looks like your actions here are at odds with your claims to Christianity, Jim. But I will not question your Christianity, all the same. Because I know you’re a sinner, just like me.

    a person who imbues Satanic lies like Islam with the same amount of legitimacy as the Holy Gospel is insulting God

    And, of course, the same could be said of a person who confuses right-wing political philosophy with God’s Law.

    The last century or so has been the worst we’ve ever had. Since only 1980, over 1 billion babies have been murdered by their own mothers. The most destructive wars in human history have been waged. … But you certainly can’t say that I’m wrong.

    Actually, you’re wrong on that last point. You offer up no subjective metric by which to compare centuries according to their “badness”. And so you continue to repeat the same few anecdotes, and also continue to ignore scads of data in counterargument. All you know is all you know, and that is all you know.

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Jim (@92):

    Most liberals are not Christian.

    Most conservatives aren’t Christian either. They call it the “narrow” road for a reason, Jim.

    But lots of people claim to be Christian and clearly aren’t. Look at Obama.

    It’s kind of odd seeing someone decrying people who “claim to be Christian” then choose to commit such an un-Christian act as you’ve done, Jim. Looks like you forgot one of the Commandments. To say nothing of our Lord’s proscription of judging people’s souls before His return. Looks like your actions here are at odds with your claims to Christianity, Jim. But I will not question your Christianity, all the same. Because I know you’re a sinner, just like me.

    a person who imbues Satanic lies like Islam with the same amount of legitimacy as the Holy Gospel is insulting God

    And, of course, the same could be said of a person who confuses right-wing political philosophy with God’s Law.

    The last century or so has been the worst we’ve ever had. Since only 1980, over 1 billion babies have been murdered by their own mothers. The most destructive wars in human history have been waged. … But you certainly can’t say that I’m wrong.

    Actually, you’re wrong on that last point. You offer up no subjective metric by which to compare centuries according to their “badness”. And so you continue to repeat the same few anecdotes, and also continue to ignore scads of data in counterargument. All you know is all you know, and that is all you know.

  • Grace

    Dust,

    You’re a special treat on this blog. :)

    Blessings to you

  • Grace

    Dust,

    You’re a special treat on this blog. :)

    Blessings to you

  • Grace

    I don’t believe anyone is a Christian Believer who states:

    “I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
    - Obama

    And then punish the baby?

  • Grace

    I don’t believe anyone is a Christian Believer who states:

    “I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
    - Obama

    And then punish the baby?

  • Jim Hamilton

    @106

    I’m not required to offer a “metric” for judging the relative “badness” of different historical eras. As I’ve said so many times, I’m merely offering my opinion that the 20th century was the worst century and given some examples I believe support my view. Why do you care? You don’t have to agree. Pick any period you want or no period at all. That’s up to you. Only God knows the exact time.

    As to the other thing, I’m not required to agree with everyone who claims to be a Christian. Obviously, only God knows for sure, but a man (in the case of Obama) who endorses partial birth abortion and claims that there are multiple paths to Heaven (among other things) is, in my view, not Christian. Could I be wrong? Sure. But, again, that’s my opinion. You’re free to have another one if you want.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @106

    I’m not required to offer a “metric” for judging the relative “badness” of different historical eras. As I’ve said so many times, I’m merely offering my opinion that the 20th century was the worst century and given some examples I believe support my view. Why do you care? You don’t have to agree. Pick any period you want or no period at all. That’s up to you. Only God knows the exact time.

    As to the other thing, I’m not required to agree with everyone who claims to be a Christian. Obviously, only God knows for sure, but a man (in the case of Obama) who endorses partial birth abortion and claims that there are multiple paths to Heaven (among other things) is, in my view, not Christian. Could I be wrong? Sure. But, again, that’s my opinion. You’re free to have another one if you want.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    It is hard to argue Obama is Christian if we require him to believe Christ is the Way and not just one way.

    By this metric Bush was a bit dodgy.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    It is hard to argue Obama is Christian if we require him to believe Christ is the Way and not just one way.

    By this metric Bush was a bit dodgy.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @110

    I agree about Bush. I have no idea who among those who claim to be Christian actually are. I’m sure there are many pious-seeming hypocrites. But I don’t think that I’m required to accept at face value the claims of people who profess to believe in the faith and then live in open and obvious sin. After all, we know that saving grace cannot exist in a heart given over to sin. So a man, like the President, who openly and apparently unrepentantly denies Christ cannot realistically expect others to accept his profession of faith.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @110

    I agree about Bush. I have no idea who among those who claim to be Christian actually are. I’m sure there are many pious-seeming hypocrites. But I don’t think that I’m required to accept at face value the claims of people who profess to believe in the faith and then live in open and obvious sin. After all, we know that saving grace cannot exist in a heart given over to sin. So a man, like the President, who openly and apparently unrepentantly denies Christ cannot realistically expect others to accept his profession of faith.

  • kerner

    Jim:

    You could be right and you could be wrong. But I think you fixate on the question too much. I am closer to the end of my natural life span than I am to the beginning of it. Some time during the next few decades, this world will end for me one way or another. From that perspective, what possible diference does it make if the whole world ends tomorrow or in another millenium or two? I’ll be meeting my Maker soon enough either way. Whether it is a happy meeting or not is purely a function of the grace of God.

    Meanwhile, my job is to love the Lord, my God (which I can only do because God first loved us), and to love my neighbor (ditto). But I don’t see how fretting over whether the apocalypse is coming tomorrow or not is my business, really.

    Incidently, I think that dust (cheers back at ya!) pretty much said this already @105, but he can correct me if I’m wrong.

  • kerner

    Jim:

    You could be right and you could be wrong. But I think you fixate on the question too much. I am closer to the end of my natural life span than I am to the beginning of it. Some time during the next few decades, this world will end for me one way or another. From that perspective, what possible diference does it make if the whole world ends tomorrow or in another millenium or two? I’ll be meeting my Maker soon enough either way. Whether it is a happy meeting or not is purely a function of the grace of God.

    Meanwhile, my job is to love the Lord, my God (which I can only do because God first loved us), and to love my neighbor (ditto). But I don’t see how fretting over whether the apocalypse is coming tomorrow or not is my business, really.

    Incidently, I think that dust (cheers back at ya!) pretty much said this already @105, but he can correct me if I’m wrong.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 112 “Meanwhile, my job is to love the Lord, my God (which I can only do because God first loved us), and to love my neighbor (ditto). But I don’t see how fretting over whether the apocalypse is coming tomorrow or not is my business, really.”

    I doubt Jim is “fretting ” – we are to watch. Many of us see the horrifc signs of the times we find ourselves, in this world. We pray for those who don’t know Christ. Our job is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray for the lost, those who have turned their back on the only Savior of this world, Jesus Christ. There is no other answer.

  • Grace

    Kerner @ 112 “Meanwhile, my job is to love the Lord, my God (which I can only do because God first loved us), and to love my neighbor (ditto). But I don’t see how fretting over whether the apocalypse is coming tomorrow or not is my business, really.”

    I doubt Jim is “fretting ” – we are to watch. Many of us see the horrifc signs of the times we find ourselves, in this world. We pray for those who don’t know Christ. Our job is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray for the lost, those who have turned their back on the only Savior of this world, Jesus Christ. There is no other answer.

  • Jim Hamilton

    @112

    The Second Advent of the Son of God will be an event of unimaginable joy and wonder. It will mean the end of all pain and fear and death (for those who believe, of course). I will get to see my great God and Savior face to face at last! I welcome this wonderful day. I look forward to it will great anticipation. And, yes, you might even say I “fixate” on it! But “fret” about it? No, sir, not me!

  • Jim Hamilton

    @112

    The Second Advent of the Son of God will be an event of unimaginable joy and wonder. It will mean the end of all pain and fear and death (for those who believe, of course). I will get to see my great God and Savior face to face at last! I welcome this wonderful day. I look forward to it will great anticipation. And, yes, you might even say I “fixate” on it! But “fret” about it? No, sir, not me!

  • Pete

    tODD (@99) re Mike (@73)

    Aren’t the “last times” the time since the Incarnation? Not “..since, well, forever.” Fine point, perhaps.

  • Pete

    tODD (@99) re Mike (@73)

    Aren’t the “last times” the time since the Incarnation? Not “..since, well, forever.” Fine point, perhaps.

  • Tom Hering

    Jim @ 114. Again, no one is arguing that the return of Our Lord is to be feared by Christians. The disagreement is with your assertion that the end must be near because the 20th century, and the 21st century so far, has been the most evil period in world history. Your argument in support of your assertion has been, “I think so.” That’s not very convincing.

  • Tom Hering

    Jim @ 114. Again, no one is arguing that the return of Our Lord is to be feared by Christians. The disagreement is with your assertion that the end must be near because the 20th century, and the 21st century so far, has been the most evil period in world history. Your argument in support of your assertion has been, “I think so.” That’s not very convincing.

  • kerner

    @113 &114:

    Well, heres Jim @5:

    “The worse things get, the closer we are to the End. Let it burn. All of it.”

    No fretting there…nope, nothing to see here…move on…

  • kerner

    @113 &114:

    Well, heres Jim @5:

    “The worse things get, the closer we are to the End. Let it burn. All of it.”

    No fretting there…nope, nothing to see here…move on…

  • kerner

    Jim @112:

    “I will get to see my great God and Savior face to face at last! I welcome this wonderful day.”

    Well, sure, but you will get to do the same if you get hit by a bus today. Not quite as dramatic, I grant you. Pretty commonplace, actually. Is that what you want so badly? To go out in a big dramatic finish?

    “See World! You were rotten to the core! But I, Jim, I was right! Not you will ALL see how right I was! Bwahahahaha!”

    What are you going to do some of these nimrods of this world (like Nineveh) actually repent? Go off (like Jonah) and sulk? “Nuts! I wanted to see Nineveh burn, and now God goes and takes them back. THIS is no fun!”

    Your mind is in the wrong place, pal.

  • kerner

    Jim @112:

    “I will get to see my great God and Savior face to face at last! I welcome this wonderful day.”

    Well, sure, but you will get to do the same if you get hit by a bus today. Not quite as dramatic, I grant you. Pretty commonplace, actually. Is that what you want so badly? To go out in a big dramatic finish?

    “See World! You were rotten to the core! But I, Jim, I was right! Not you will ALL see how right I was! Bwahahahaha!”

    What are you going to do some of these nimrods of this world (like Nineveh) actually repent? Go off (like Jonah) and sulk? “Nuts! I wanted to see Nineveh burn, and now God goes and takes them back. THIS is no fun!”

    Your mind is in the wrong place, pal.

  • kerner

    oops, that should be “NOW you will see”.

  • kerner

    oops, that should be “NOW you will see”.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Go off (like Jonah) and sulk? “Nuts! I wanted to see Nineveh burn, and now God goes and takes them back. THIS is no fun!”

    Exactly.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Go off (like Jonah) and sulk? “Nuts! I wanted to see Nineveh burn, and now God goes and takes them back. THIS is no fun!”

    Exactly.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom-

    “Again, no one is arguing that the return of Our Lord is to be feared by Christians. The disagreement is with your assertion that the end must be near because the 20th century, and the 21st century so far, has been the most evil period in world history. Your argument in support of your assertion has been, “I think so.” That’s not very convincing.”

    It makes no difference to me if you’re convinced or not. It’s only my opinion. Agree or disagree, I couldn’t give two Bic pens. It’s up to you, my friend!

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom-

    “Again, no one is arguing that the return of Our Lord is to be feared by Christians. The disagreement is with your assertion that the end must be near because the 20th century, and the 21st century so far, has been the most evil period in world history. Your argument in support of your assertion has been, “I think so.” That’s not very convincing.”

    It makes no difference to me if you’re convinced or not. It’s only my opinion. Agree or disagree, I couldn’t give two Bic pens. It’s up to you, my friend!

  • Jim Hamilton

    Kerner-

    It seems strange to me that you are offended by a Christian being excited about the Second Advent of the Son of God. I’m very excited about and certainly not ashamed to say it. I hope it happens today! I welcome the destruction of this wretched world and the end of pain and death. As I said to Tom, you can agree or disagree, but, with respect, I don’t care what you think about my views.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Kerner-

    It seems strange to me that you are offended by a Christian being excited about the Second Advent of the Son of God. I’m very excited about and certainly not ashamed to say it. I hope it happens today! I welcome the destruction of this wretched world and the end of pain and death. As I said to Tom, you can agree or disagree, but, with respect, I don’t care what you think about my views.

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom and Kerner-

    Thanks for the debate! I’m going to get off this thread now. There doesn’t really seem to be any useful purpose in continuing this conversation. Have a good day!

  • Jim Hamilton

    Tom and Kerner-

    Thanks for the debate! I’m going to get off this thread now. There doesn’t really seem to be any useful purpose in continuing this conversation. Have a good day!

  • Joe

    I could have told you that around post 34. :)

  • Joe

    I could have told you that around post 34. :)

  • Tom Hering

    We were trying to accomplish something useful???

  • Tom Hering

    We were trying to accomplish something useful???

  • George A. Marquart

    My guess is that the Supreme Court will approve gay marriage and declare California’s Proposition 8 to be unconstitutional. Justice Scalia will write the minority opinion.

    The reason I think the latter is that just the other day, at the University of Princeton, Scalia was asked to explain his dissenting opinion in a 2003 case, Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down a Texas anti-sodomy law. In his dissent, he makes a couple of comparisons to laws against bestiality and declares, “nowhere does the Court’s opinion declare that homosexual sodomy is a ‘fundamental right.’” This reminds me of what a Soviet friend once told me about the difference between the Soviet Union and the United States. “In the United States,” he said, “everything that is not specifically forbidden is allowed. In the Soviet Union, everything that is not specifically allowed is forbidden.” I am sure Scalia would be horrified at being placed in the Soviet camp, but they are his words.

    Another factor that may affect the decision is that by June of next year, there may be a valid scientific explanation for homosexuality and lesbianism. In an article, “Scientists May Have Finally Unlocked Puzzle of Why People Are Gay.
    Lesbians get it from fathers, gay men from mothers?” by Jason Koebler, he writes, “’Long thought to have some sort of hereditary link, a group of scientists suggested Tuesday that homosexuality is linked to epi-marks — extra layers of information that control how certain genes are expressed. These epi-marks are usually, but not always, “erased” between generations. In homosexuals, these epi-marks aren’t erased — they’re passed from father-to-daughter or mother-to-son,’ explains William Rice, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California Santa Barbara and lead author of the study.” At the end of the article Rice suggests that if someone wants to do it, the theory could be either proven to be true or false in a six months program.

    Peace and Joy!
    George A. Marquart

  • George A. Marquart

    My guess is that the Supreme Court will approve gay marriage and declare California’s Proposition 8 to be unconstitutional. Justice Scalia will write the minority opinion.

    The reason I think the latter is that just the other day, at the University of Princeton, Scalia was asked to explain his dissenting opinion in a 2003 case, Lawrence v. Texas, which struck down a Texas anti-sodomy law. In his dissent, he makes a couple of comparisons to laws against bestiality and declares, “nowhere does the Court’s opinion declare that homosexual sodomy is a ‘fundamental right.’” This reminds me of what a Soviet friend once told me about the difference between the Soviet Union and the United States. “In the United States,” he said, “everything that is not specifically forbidden is allowed. In the Soviet Union, everything that is not specifically allowed is forbidden.” I am sure Scalia would be horrified at being placed in the Soviet camp, but they are his words.

    Another factor that may affect the decision is that by June of next year, there may be a valid scientific explanation for homosexuality and lesbianism. In an article, “Scientists May Have Finally Unlocked Puzzle of Why People Are Gay.
    Lesbians get it from fathers, gay men from mothers?” by Jason Koebler, he writes, “’Long thought to have some sort of hereditary link, a group of scientists suggested Tuesday that homosexuality is linked to epi-marks — extra layers of information that control how certain genes are expressed. These epi-marks are usually, but not always, “erased” between generations. In homosexuals, these epi-marks aren’t erased — they’re passed from father-to-daughter or mother-to-son,’ explains William Rice, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California Santa Barbara and lead author of the study.” At the end of the article Rice suggests that if someone wants to do it, the theory could be either proven to be true or false in a six months program.

    Peace and Joy!
    George A. Marquart

  • fws

    Our legal system has long been tinkering with what marriage is supposed to be. For example, the definition of marriage as a permanent, for-better-or-worse estate was changed by no-fault divorce laws, but I don’t recall anyone complaining much.

    The hipocricy(sp?) leaps out pretty strongly here.

    True morality actually costs someone taking the moral stand in terms of having to give up something they, if they are honest, desire to have the freedom to do.
    Those taking a “moral” stand on homosexuality pay no such cost at all.

    Thus the collective and deafening silence on no-fault divorce.

    Is it gay marriage or no fault divorce that is the greater threat to the institution of marriage?

    We ALL know the answer to that don’t we?
    So where are the court battles and predictions of the world’s end on no fault divorce, and the political points made, and …. of course…. the fund raising possibilities….?

  • fws

    Our legal system has long been tinkering with what marriage is supposed to be. For example, the definition of marriage as a permanent, for-better-or-worse estate was changed by no-fault divorce laws, but I don’t recall anyone complaining much.

    The hipocricy(sp?) leaps out pretty strongly here.

    True morality actually costs someone taking the moral stand in terms of having to give up something they, if they are honest, desire to have the freedom to do.
    Those taking a “moral” stand on homosexuality pay no such cost at all.

    Thus the collective and deafening silence on no-fault divorce.

    Is it gay marriage or no fault divorce that is the greater threat to the institution of marriage?

    We ALL know the answer to that don’t we?
    So where are the court battles and predictions of the world’s end on no fault divorce, and the political points made, and …. of course…. the fund raising possibilities….?

  • Stephen

    Someone said that it is the conceit of every age to believe that its problems are greater than any other. It think that’s about right. It is also true that it is a specifically American/Puritan conceit that ones beliefs (and attendant life of obedience) will be vindicated with the coming of Christ. All that toiling to be good will be proven worthwhile – a kind of tacit works righteousness beneath the piety and supposed concern for the neighbor. Dare I say there are strains of this in our own Lutheran stoicism. No one is righteous. Not one.

    Opinions. Bah! The heart of man is deceitful. How we love to find some way to pass judgement on others. It’s their sin that is the problem! Can’t you see that!!! It’s what THEY do that isa sure sign it’s all going to hell. Except for me. Thank you Lord that I am not like them!

  • Stephen

    Someone said that it is the conceit of every age to believe that its problems are greater than any other. It think that’s about right. It is also true that it is a specifically American/Puritan conceit that ones beliefs (and attendant life of obedience) will be vindicated with the coming of Christ. All that toiling to be good will be proven worthwhile – a kind of tacit works righteousness beneath the piety and supposed concern for the neighbor. Dare I say there are strains of this in our own Lutheran stoicism. No one is righteous. Not one.

    Opinions. Bah! The heart of man is deceitful. How we love to find some way to pass judgement on others. It’s their sin that is the problem! Can’t you see that!!! It’s what THEY do that isa sure sign it’s all going to hell. Except for me. Thank you Lord that I am not like them!

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Well said, Stephen.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    Well said, Stephen.

  • Stephen

    KK @ 129

    Hey, you (and Tom) got the ball rolling brother. I was just following your lead.

    Cheers!

  • Stephen

    KK @ 129

    Hey, you (and Tom) got the ball rolling brother. I was just following your lead.

    Cheers!

  • andrew

    I’m just sad that if a non-christian came onto this thread, all they’d have seen was nasty sniping and pettiness. the sort of acid throwing i’d expect from a group of unregenerate people. all that was missing was blasphemy and profanity. Character assassination was there in spades.

    John 13:35
    New International Version (NIV)

    35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

  • andrew

    I’m just sad that if a non-christian came onto this thread, all they’d have seen was nasty sniping and pettiness. the sort of acid throwing i’d expect from a group of unregenerate people. all that was missing was blasphemy and profanity. Character assassination was there in spades.

    John 13:35
    New International Version (NIV)

    35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #126 We’ve always had men who were sissies or women who were masculine. I had an aunt with a five o’clock shadow and 6 kids. What’s altered is the recent openness to affirm and promote disruptive and subversive sexual behavior as an option for people with defective sexuality.

    We don’t have nearly the same social tolerance for people who openly eat feces or do other disgusting and subversive behaviors.

  • http://steadfastlutherans.org/ SAL

    #126 We’ve always had men who were sissies or women who were masculine. I had an aunt with a five o’clock shadow and 6 kids. What’s altered is the recent openness to affirm and promote disruptive and subversive sexual behavior as an option for people with defective sexuality.

    We don’t have nearly the same social tolerance for people who openly eat feces or do other disgusting and subversive behaviors.

  • Tom Hering

    As I said to Tom, you can agree or disagree, but, with respect, I don’t care what you think about my views. (@ 122)

    Then why, Jim, post them on a blog where people discuss one another’s views?

  • Tom Hering

    As I said to Tom, you can agree or disagree, but, with respect, I don’t care what you think about my views. (@ 122)

    Then why, Jim, post them on a blog where people discuss one another’s views?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Andrew (@131), just wondering: did you do anything to change up that pattern, or did you merely continue in it?

  • http://www.toddstadler.com/ tODD

    Andrew (@131), just wondering: did you do anything to change up that pattern, or did you merely continue in it?

  • kerner

    Grace @113:
    ” We pray for those who don’t know Christ. Our job is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray for the lost, those who have turned their back on the only Savior of this world, Jesus Christ. There is no other answer.”

    Amen, and +1.

    Stephen @128

    Amen and +1 to you too.

    fws @ 127:
    “Is it gay marriage or no fault divorce that is the greater threat to the institution of marriage?”

    I think both of them are symptoms rather than threats per se. Because western civilization has generally lost respect for (and lost even an understanding of) marriage, we now have wide spread divorce, and attempts to reclassify gay relationships as marriage.

    But I agree that divorce and other forms of heterosexual misbehavior are far more common problems that cause a lot more pain and societal damage than homosexuals do, and to the extent that symptoms often aggravate the underlying causal condition, divorce and heterosexual sin is by far the greater threat to marriage.

  • kerner

    Grace @113:
    ” We pray for those who don’t know Christ. Our job is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray for the lost, those who have turned their back on the only Savior of this world, Jesus Christ. There is no other answer.”

    Amen, and +1.

    Stephen @128

    Amen and +1 to you too.

    fws @ 127:
    “Is it gay marriage or no fault divorce that is the greater threat to the institution of marriage?”

    I think both of them are symptoms rather than threats per se. Because western civilization has generally lost respect for (and lost even an understanding of) marriage, we now have wide spread divorce, and attempts to reclassify gay relationships as marriage.

    But I agree that divorce and other forms of heterosexual misbehavior are far more common problems that cause a lot more pain and societal damage than homosexuals do, and to the extent that symptoms often aggravate the underlying causal condition, divorce and heterosexual sin is by far the greater threat to marriage.

  • andrew

    Todd. I was just drawing people’s attention to it. Just trying to get people to realise that we are christians, and should act like it and should behave in a way that we’d not be ashamed if Jesus was reading over our shoulder.
    The topic of the thread was well and truly derailed (and that’s ok), but that isn’t an excuse to be nasty or petty.

  • andrew

    Todd. I was just drawing people’s attention to it. Just trying to get people to realise that we are christians, and should act like it and should behave in a way that we’d not be ashamed if Jesus was reading over our shoulder.
    The topic of the thread was well and truly derailed (and that’s ok), but that isn’t an excuse to be nasty or petty.

  • andrew

    an interesting piece on the tone of comment threads.
    Todd – this was what i had in mind when i posted earlier.

    http://www.challies.com/christian-living/death-and-life-and-your-tongue

  • andrew

    an interesting piece on the tone of comment threads.
    Todd – this was what i had in mind when i posted earlier.

    http://www.challies.com/christian-living/death-and-life-and-your-tongue

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I dunno, Andrew. There is certainly some vigorous disagreement on this blog, but I don’t think the tone is all that extreme.

    Disagreements are good for debate. Hyperbole and rhetoric are ok with me, as long as it doesn’t amount to mere cheap shots and obvious strawmen. When I want that, I look at YouTube comments.

  • http://facebook.com/mesamike Mike Westfall

    I dunno, Andrew. There is certainly some vigorous disagreement on this blog, but I don’t think the tone is all that extreme.

    Disagreements are good for debate. Hyperbole and rhetoric are ok with me, as long as it doesn’t amount to mere cheap shots and obvious strawmen. When I want that, I look at YouTube comments.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I agree with Mike. I sometimes get the feeling that people are afraid to call a spade a spade. Of course, being born into an ethnicity well known for directness, this hardly makes me an impartial judge.

  • Klasie Kraalogies

    I agree with Mike. I sometimes get the feeling that people are afraid to call a spade a spade. Of course, being born into an ethnicity well known for directness, this hardly makes me an impartial judge.

  • andrew

    i may (probably did) have over-reacted. It is hard to read the cultural backgrounds and nuances of indivuduals from behind a keyboard. I’m a bit sensitive to tone of disagreements online, and extended periods of nastiness by others (partly (though not always) prompted by an occasional lack of diplomacy on my part) led me to abandon facebook a few months back. people who i knew and whose tones i knew were far too liberal with nastiness that maybe i see it everywhere now.

    sorry for raining on the parade.

  • andrew

    i may (probably did) have over-reacted. It is hard to read the cultural backgrounds and nuances of indivuduals from behind a keyboard. I’m a bit sensitive to tone of disagreements online, and extended periods of nastiness by others (partly (though not always) prompted by an occasional lack of diplomacy on my part) led me to abandon facebook a few months back. people who i knew and whose tones i knew were far too liberal with nastiness that maybe i see it everywhere now.

    sorry for raining on the parade.

  • fws

    Kerner @ 135 and grace @ 113

    God has called us to pray for the lost, the last, the least and the unlovable. But he has called us to far more.

    Our job is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    That begs this question:
    “What IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ?”

    The Lutheran Confessions:

    13] what more forcible, more terrible declaration and preaching of God’s wrath against sin is there than just the suffering and death of Christ, His Son? http://bookofconcord.org/sd-lawandgospel.php#para13

    This preaching is: Law. Moses. The Law only and Always kills, accuses and terrifies consciences (Apology to the Augsburg Confessions, Art IV “Of Love and the fulfilling of the Law”)

    16. Why should we remember and proclaim His death [by partaking of the Holy Supper] ? …so we may learn to be horrified by our sins, and to regard them as very serious. http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#qanda

    The Lord´s Supper is … Law. Moses. The Law Always and only kills, accuses and terrifies the conscience.

    10] Because, without Christ, the preaching of the Law makes one of two kinds of men:
    presumptuous men, who imagine that they can fulfill the Law by outward works, or
    forces men utterly to [epicurean] despair,

    Christ takes the Law into His own hands, and explains it spiritually , Matt. 5:21ff ; Rom. 7:14 and Rom 1:18.

    Christ reveals His wrath from heaven upon all sinners, and shows how great it is; whereby they are directed to the Law, and from it first learn to know their sins aright-a knowledge which Moses never could extort from them.

    For as the apostle testifies, 2 Cor. 3:14f, even though Moses is read, yet the veil which he put over his face is never lifted, so that they cannot understand the Law spiritually ,

    that is:

    how great are the things it requires of us, and how severely it curses and condemns us because we cannot observe or fulfil it.

    It is only when men come [to Christ in] faith , that the veil [covering the Law] shalt be taken away, 2 Cor. 3:16 (Formula of Concord Solid Declaration Art V “Law and Gospel”) http://bookofconcord.org/sd-lawandgospel.php#para10.

    So what is it that transforms the exact same words of Scripture that are the preaching of Christ Crucified and the Lord´s Supper from being
    “horrifying, and the most terrible Law into…
    sweet comforting Gospel?

    It is , alone, preaching that, alone, unconditionally, declares this to ALL sinners, and commands and urges them to personally apply and believe it:

    Fasting and bodily preparation (such as sexual self restraint) is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who, alone has faith in these words:

    Given, and shed FOR YOU! , for the remission of sins.

    I would suggest that the way most christians, even , sadly , many LCMS christians, preach the “Gospel ” to Gays is this way:

    It is, therefore, dangerous and wrong to convert the Gospel, properly so called, as distinguished from the Law, into a preaching of repentance or reproof [a preaching of repentance, reproving sin]. Ibid http://bookofconcord.org/sd-lawandgospel.php#para27

    The “For YOU!” Gospel, is , for gays, only and alone, offered when gays are able to first do the reasoned exercise of properly classifying their sexuality as sin.

    Many in the LCMS teach that task, that requires NO Holy Spirit and no Christ, is the necessary meritorious preparation for receiving grace and justification if one is gay, lesbian, or transgender.

    This is what the Scholastics, following St Thomas Aquinas taught. This teaching is what is categorically condemned by the Apology to the Augsburg Confessions.

    This error strikes at the very heart of the Lutheran Confessions. Not just for homosexuals. For everyone.

  • fws

    Kerner @ 135 and grace @ 113

    God has called us to pray for the lost, the last, the least and the unlovable. But he has called us to far more.

    Our job is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    That begs this question:
    “What IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ?”

    The Lutheran Confessions:

    13] what more forcible, more terrible declaration and preaching of God’s wrath against sin is there than just the suffering and death of Christ, His Son? http://bookofconcord.org/sd-lawandgospel.php#para13

    This preaching is: Law. Moses. The Law only and Always kills, accuses and terrifies consciences (Apology to the Augsburg Confessions, Art IV “Of Love and the fulfilling of the Law”)

    16. Why should we remember and proclaim His death [by partaking of the Holy Supper] ? …so we may learn to be horrified by our sins, and to regard them as very serious. http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#qanda

    The Lord´s Supper is … Law. Moses. The Law Always and only kills, accuses and terrifies the conscience.

    10] Because, without Christ, the preaching of the Law makes one of two kinds of men:
    presumptuous men, who imagine that they can fulfill the Law by outward works, or
    forces men utterly to [epicurean] despair,

    Christ takes the Law into His own hands, and explains it spiritually , Matt. 5:21ff ; Rom. 7:14 and Rom 1:18.

    Christ reveals His wrath from heaven upon all sinners, and shows how great it is; whereby they are directed to the Law, and from it first learn to know their sins aright-a knowledge which Moses never could extort from them.

    For as the apostle testifies, 2 Cor. 3:14f, even though Moses is read, yet the veil which he put over his face is never lifted, so that they cannot understand the Law spiritually ,

    that is:

    how great are the things it requires of us, and how severely it curses and condemns us because we cannot observe or fulfil it.

    It is only when men come [to Christ in] faith , that the veil [covering the Law] shalt be taken away, 2 Cor. 3:16 (Formula of Concord Solid Declaration Art V “Law and Gospel”) http://bookofconcord.org/sd-lawandgospel.php#para10.

    So what is it that transforms the exact same words of Scripture that are the preaching of Christ Crucified and the Lord´s Supper from being
    “horrifying, and the most terrible Law into…
    sweet comforting Gospel?

    It is , alone, preaching that, alone, unconditionally, declares this to ALL sinners, and commands and urges them to personally apply and believe it:

    Fasting and bodily preparation (such as sexual self restraint) is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who, alone has faith in these words:

    Given, and shed FOR YOU! , for the remission of sins.

    I would suggest that the way most christians, even , sadly , many LCMS christians, preach the “Gospel ” to Gays is this way:

    It is, therefore, dangerous and wrong to convert the Gospel, properly so called, as distinguished from the Law, into a preaching of repentance or reproof [a preaching of repentance, reproving sin]. Ibid http://bookofconcord.org/sd-lawandgospel.php#para27

    The “For YOU!” Gospel, is , for gays, only and alone, offered when gays are able to first do the reasoned exercise of properly classifying their sexuality as sin.

    Many in the LCMS teach that task, that requires NO Holy Spirit and no Christ, is the necessary meritorious preparation for receiving grace and justification if one is gay, lesbian, or transgender.

    This is what the Scholastics, following St Thomas Aquinas taught. This teaching is what is categorically condemned by the Apology to the Augsburg Confessions.

    This error strikes at the very heart of the Lutheran Confessions. Not just for homosexuals. For everyone.


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