In the name of the Mother, Child and Womb?

June 20, 2006 By

wombWith all of the excitement surrounding the Episcopal convention, the action at the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)’s 217th General Assembly has been overshadowed. (And the coverage the Presbyterians have received in recent months has not been terribly positive, involving their budget and membership woes.) But Richard Ostling filed a story with the Associated Press that’s pretty juicy:

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) — The divine Trinity — “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” — could also be known as “Mother, Child and Womb” or “Rock, Redeemer, Friend” at some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) services under an action Monday by the church’s national assembly.

Um, womb? I would love an explanation of what the heck that even means, but okay. Ostling explains how the new formulations might be used in liturgies and the political process by which the change happened. He also gives both sides a chance to share their views:

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity should still be used, but added that Presbyterians also should seek “fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God” to “expand the church’s vocabulary of praise and wonder.”

One reason is that language limited to the Father and Son “has been used to support the idea that God is male and that men are superior to women,” the panel said.

Those who disagree with the change note that Jesus referred to God as “our Father.” Ostling also notes other permissible configurations, including “Lover, Beloved, Love.” He also writes that a vote on ordaining clergy will take place later today. Ostling does not mention something that is fairly important — the Presbyterians passed an amendment requiring the Trinitarian formula of “Father, Son, Holy Spirit” for baptisms.

Ostling is a wire reporter so it’s not really his place to delve deep into the issues raised by this Presbyterian move. But I certainly hope that other reporters remember things like this when they’re trying to illuminate some of what the PCUSA is going through.

Photo via Flickr.

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Filed Under: Godbeat, Journalism
  • Matt

    Well, at least we won’t have to rebaptize them when the convert to Orthodxy. I’d be interested inknowing who pused that resolution and why.

  • David Irby

    This is a lot more important than any of the “big news” from the Episcopalian Convention. As a Catholic who converted from that church during Vatican II (long before female ordained clergy and homosexual clergy were ever thought of) I understand that the former issue is really only an ecclesial one. It makes it impossible for them to unite with us (or the Orthodox) of course, because we believe that Christ founded a Church with only male Apostles from which our bishops and priests descend. But there is no Protestant principle, which forbids female ordinations.

    The homosexual issue is more important because its practice is clearly sinful according to Scripture. But since the US Episcopalians probably won’t reverse themselves as to that issue, the Anglican Communion is simply creating a second tier for them to sit on, thereby reaffirming its traditional moral position.

    But the real issue is the danger to souls involved. And that issue is even more sharp regarding the Presbyterian innovation because all major “Reformation churches” have always agreed (with Catholics and Orthodox) that those who don’t affirm, “Father, Son, Holy Spirit” cannot be saved. So even tinkering at the edges of that formula poses a danger to souls.

    Besides, “Mother, Child, Womb”!?! This is simply silly! If the other inhabitants of hell could laugh, they would certainly giggle at that crowd!

  • http://blidiot.blogspot.com/ Raider51

    “Rock, Scissors, Paper”

  • Mark V.

    Pretty soon it will be Papa Bear, Mama Bear, and Baby Bear.

  • Sean Gallagher

    The requirement to use “Father, Son, and Spirit” in baptisms may be important, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the possible ecumenical troubles are ended if the PCUSA continues on in this direction.

    For example, after many years of reflection and consultation, the Catholic Church decided that LDS baptisms are not valid even though they employ the terms “Father, Son, and Spirit.”

    Why? Because that group’s understanding of the Trinity was fundamentally different than that held by the Catholic Church and most other Christian traditions.

    If this movement in the PCUSA represents a fundamental shift in that body’s understanding of the Trinity, its relations with other Christian communities will be negatively impacted in a significant way.

    That’s newsmaking.

  • http://www.jonswerens.com Jon Swerens

    Raider51,

    Good one! I was thinking of Ham, Eggs and Biscuit.

  • http://wildfaith.homestead.com Darrell Grizzle

    Mollie writes,
    “Um, womb? I would love an explanation of what the heck that even means, but okay.”

    The Hebrew root word for “compassion” is the same as that for “womb.”

    Mollie, check with your doctor and she or he should be able to enlighten you about the womb. It’s a place of birth, new creation, sometimes associated with nurturing and compassion. Unless you’ve had a hysterectomy, you have one.

  • tmatt

    Darrell:

    The key word being “place.” As opposed to “person.”

  • dan

    “also be known as “Mother, Child and Womb”

    “Womb?”
    Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Presbyterian Church’s view on abortion?

    This new formulation for the Trinity would seem to have major implications within the Presbyterian Church if there are members who support the right to choose.

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  • http://lamillinger.typepad.com Lee Anne Millinger

    I tremble for my denomination. They say that this doesn’t change their theology of the Trinity. But words have meaning, and language like this cannot help but have an effect on theology. How does a uterus suggest the role of the Spirit in the believer’s life — power to be Christ’s witness, victory over sin, convicting the world regarding sin, righteousness and judgment? How does Mother, Child, Womb capture the co-eternal existence and relationship of the Trinity?

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Darrell writes:

    “Mollie, check with your doctor and she or he should be able to enlighten you about the womb. It’s a place of birth, new creation, sometimes associated with nurturing and compassion. Unless you’ve had a hysterectomy, you have one.”

    Oh, I have a womb? Who knew? And what happens in this womb? Babies are formed there? I had no idea. Well, I guess that changes everything about this Presbyterian decision.

    Darrell also writes:

    “The Hebrew root word for “compassion” is the same as that for “womb.””

    If I were trying to defend this, by the by, I would emphasize the Holy Comforter aspect of the Spirit. Seems a more natural parallel for the two.

    Of course, the point of my post is just that reporters need to remember decisions such as this Trinitarian reworking when they are trying to explain the divide within the PCUSA.

  • http://wildfaith.blogspot.com/ Darrell Grizzle

    Mollie, my intent was not to defend anything but to answer your request for an explanation (“I would love an explanation”). You made the request in a flippant manner, so I responded in kind. Obviously your request was not made in good faith and you would NOT love an explanation.

    I’ll get out of the way now and let you conservatives fret over this latest threat to your faith.

  • http://clientandserver.com dw

    He did at least get the “received” part right. GA punted rather than tackling the issues. PC(USA) continues to be two, two, two churches in one. The Ark, Dove, Rainbow one is the oddest one on the list.

    It’s not a bad year for anyone but Louisville, it looks like. The mainliners and evangelicals are joining up to clean house in the denominational offices, even if they’re fragmenting on theological issues.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Darrell,

    I actually appreciated your explanation. And I even added an explanation (about Holy Comforter) so you can calm down.

    However, when you tell a grown woman that SHE HAS A WOMB AND HER DOCTOR CAN ENLIGHTEN HER ABOUT IT, you might expect to get a snarky response. You can’t possibly be surprised by that. If you are, and, hey, maybe you are, let me assure you that such condescending comments to women are not taken very well.

    Mollie

  • Alex

    Cheesburger, Fries and a Coke(r).

  • http://www.thechurchgeek.com jim

    Nice post. I posted on this this morning also at http://www.thechurchgeek.com/?p=114.

    It’s always interesting to see the struggle between my denom’s commitment to ecumenism (which was I’m sure the primary driver for keeping the “father, son, holy spirit” language in the baptismal formula) and the desire to be trendy and inclusive in our language for God.

    I don’t see how you can adqauately maintain both committments which is why we always end up with such contradictory statements.

  • http://mcj.bloghorn.com/ Christopher Johnson

    Pujols, Rolen and Carpenter. Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

  • http://cinecon.blogspot.com Victor Morton

    No fries. Chip.

    No Coke. Pepsi.

  • http://clientandserver.com dw

    Pujols, Rolen and Carpenter.

    Don’t you mean The Back, The Knee and The Shoulder?

  • http://wildfaith.blogspot.com/ Darrell Grizzle

    Mollie, I fully expected a snarky response to my snarky response to your snarky post. I meant to be sarcastic, not condescending. I apologize for that (sincerely). No hard feelings, I hope, from one snark to another.

    The reason I don’t defend the new Trinity is because I don’t actually like it. Mother and Child are relational images, “womb” is not — it’s a place, not a person, as tmatt points out. There’s no symmetry. I have the same problem with some of the other formulations they came up with. “Rock, Redeemer, Friend,” for example. Yes, God is imaged as a Rock in the Bible, but God is so much more than that. And describing the Holy Spirit as “Friend” seems overly familiar, like George Carlin’s “Buddy Christ” in “Dogma.” All these images seem so limiting. None of them fully expresses the reality of the three persons of the Trinity.

  • Martha

    *struggles with impulse to grab PCUSA by lapels and shout into its face “Yes, Jesus has a mother – her name is Mary!”*

    Oh, dear: didn’t suppress that impulse any too well, did I? But seriously, ‘Mother, Child, Womb’? Firstly, we’re making a separation here between mother and womb, are we not? Unless they’re trying to be inclusive of surrogacy: ‘this is His genetic mother, this is His birth mother, and this is His mother on whose behalf the other two donated eggs and womb’.

    Yeesh. Secondly, what about Mary (no, I mean it)? Can anyone explain to me why re-defining God the Father as God the Mother is perfectly Biblical, but even talking about you-know-who is idolatry and taking away from the proper glorification of God?

    Thirdly, why not use ‘Paraclete’ if you’re going to get all new-fangled? Personally, I never really got over the change from Holy Ghost to Holy Spirit, but hey, why stop there? And if Jesus Himself taught us to pray to God as Father, don’t they think He knows the right way to do it?

  • Thuloid

    See, Martha, there’s no way anyone in the PCUSA would ignore Jesus. So it must be that His example has taught so well that they now can correct Him.

  • http://www.southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com Fr Joseph Huneycutt

    FWIW, Jesus refered to his Father in heaven because … His Father WAS (is) in heaven! He would never have said “Our Mother in heaven” … because, well, she was right down the street!

    [And, yes, I know that he said something akin to "Daddy" -- which only furthers my point.]

  • Dan

    Tom, Dick & Harry.

  • http://www.falsedawn.us Lee Penn

    Two more ideas as the Presbys continue their liturgical evolution:

    1. Parent, Child, and Serpent of Wisdom, and
    2. Morgoth, Sauron, and Mouth of Sauron

    When will they get around to using feminine imagery and names for the devil?

    Lee

  • http://www.southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com Fr Joseph Huneycutt

    Forgive me, Mollie, I know we’re off topic, but …

    I asked that question of a peer in seminary: “Why are we always debating the names and nature of the Trinity — when the devil’s always portrayed as male?”

    “That’s her greatest disguise!” he quipped. :)

    Note: This is a joke.

  • Mike

    Hey Martha, maybe this is an attempt to reach out to the gay and lesbian community. Ya know, as in “Jesus has Two Mommies.”

  • Bill Wood

    I can understand God giving me his Holy Spirit to indwell in my body. I can’t visualize the indwelling of a womb, particularly in a man.

  • Martha

    Mike, you went where I feared to tread ;-)

    Yes, that similarity struck me also, but I didn’t mention it (on grounds of good taste, decency, and fear of being struck by lightning).

    Look, why don’t the good folk in PCUSA (because I get the impression that they *are* well-meaning in this, no matter how dumb the result sounds) just bite the bullet on this and learn to pray the Rosary? Then they would get the consolation and satisfaction of praying with the Queen of Heaven, our mother Mary, and wouldn’t need to mess about with damn silly names for the Blessed Trinity. See? Everyone’s happy then! :-)

  • Micah Weedman

    the real problem is that the “womb” isn’t a precise naming of anything. It’s not truly a place, person or organ. David Cunningham in his rather good “These Three are One” from the Blackwell’s “black” series does some interesting stuff with mother, child and umbilical cord as an icon of the trinity.

  • Kevin P. Edgecomb

    Lee, how about:

    Natalie, Emily, and Martie?

    (Sorry, I couldn’t resist!)

  • http://www.southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com Fr Joseph Huneycutt

    Oh, but that would be the Doxie Chicks.

  • http://blidiot.blogspot.com/ Raider51

    Ears, Nose and Throat

  • Katie

    Kudos Lee for the Middle-Earth reference!

  • Bill

    OK, I got this from Honeycutt and it is my favorite: Bank, Check and Cashflow

  • R Boyd

    Having de-identified the Trinity, PCUSA’s logical next step should be to drop the use of the cross as the symbol of the faith. After all, it is divisive, offensive to many, old-fashioned, negative (a symbol of suffering and death), and just plain superstitious.

    Sophisticated contemporary theologians, like the Episcopalian bishop John Shelby Spong, have long since realized that there really isn’t any God at all and all that Bible stuff is just nuts. So, sure, Jesus either was a woman, or might as well have been one, if he even existed at all. And Goddess knows how oppressive all that right-brained masculinist language was that privileges the male over the female. As if there were actual differences between them!

    Clearly the time has arrived to select and embrace a new, life-affirming symbol of our sophisticated and superior post-modern faith in absolutely anything we feel good about. Something that celebrates the bounty of creation, rather than sin, suffering, and death.

    I suggest a golden calf.

    As for me, since I am inordinately fond of cats, I will henceforth think of the Holy Trinity as Big Kitty, Little Kitty, and Hello Kitty.

  • http://beggarsall.blogspot.com Caspar Heidenreich

    The Three Amigos!

  • http://meautemminui.wordpress.com jquinby

    Manny, Moe and Jack?
    Kukla, Fran and Ollie?

  • http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/ Kevin P. Edgecomb

    Fr. Huneycutt wins on the (to me) totally obscure dizzy chicks! (I had to look up their names, honestly.)

    He already beat me to Rock, Paper, Scissors, the one that came to mind on reading the “Rock, Redeemer, Friend” in the article, as I’m sure it did to many others.

  • http://cinecon.blogspot.com Victor Morton

    Patty, Maxine and Laverne?

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  • Kristine J

    Lies, damn lies and statistics.

  • Kristine J

    O.K. – that’s bad. But if any threesome now counts, as long as they sound good together, how about Jack, Janet and Chrissy? (name the reference.)

  • Stephen A.

    I left this den of feel-good feminist Wiccans (PCUSA) many years ago and the correctness of my decision has been reaffirmed over and over again.

    This paper* says it is “reclaiming the doctrine of the Trinity in theology.” Reclaiming it from WHOM? and FOR whom? The Politically Correct, perfectly balanced 5-man, 5-woman, ethnically diverse panel who wrote it doesn’t really explain this.

    Discovering new analogies for God (be it a womb or, as the report notes early on, a “waterfall”) may be fun, or interesting, but to what end? What a collosal waste of time.

    Oh, and let me weigh in with an old favorite: Water, Steam, Ice.

    * Link: http://www.pcusa.org/theologyandworship/issues/trinityfinal.pdf

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  • tmatt

    Peter, Paul and Mary.

    A kind of nod to Rome.

  • Stephen A.

    Kristine J. — it’s “Three’s Company!”

    But if Jack is God, who does Mr. Roper represent? Satan, trying to foil his plans? (Or was Satan Larry, who’s always trying to tempt Jack astray?) And does this mean God’s pretending to be gay? And is the Trinity simply co-habitating together?

    No, this analogy just WON’T do, though it’s just as plausible as the one the PCUSA came up with. ;-)

  • Ericka

    I am so upset with this. My beloved Church (capital letter is the national PCUSA) is slowly going to hell, taking my church (local) and others down with it. Let’s get this straight…. God is a male. Mary had a Son, so Jesus is a male… and the Holy Ghost… who knows?…. but that’s not the point… the point is that the leaders of my Church are treading where they should fear. Why can’t they just leave it with “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”? Or if they want to change it, “Spock, Kirk, and McCoy”…? (Sorry, I’m a trekkie).

    I think part of the reasoning for this change, though, is the fear that an invisible ‘someone’ might have had a bad father, and wouldn’t respond or react well to God the Father. Which is somewhat of a plausible explaination… but what about those of us (like me) who have a horrible mother?

    Unfortunately, though, our language isn’t capable of describing well this mystery of the triune God, but Jesus himself gave us guidelines. Why can’t they be followed?

  • http://clientandserver.com dw

    I left this den of feel-good feminist Wiccans (PCUSA) many years ago and the correctness of my decision has been reaffirmed over and over again.

    Tell us how you really feel, Stephen.

    I’m wondering whether you’d condemn yourself to hell rather than be in heaven with even one evangelical member of PC(USA).

  • John Stuart

    Read the report, instead of taking out what you think it contains.

  • Stephen A.

    Ouch. I’ll have to think on that, dw, since the thought of spending just one minute in one of these mainstream religions’ conventions really does sound like being in hell.

  • http://clientandserver.com dw

    See, you completely misunderstand the purpose of GA. We send commissioners there to punish them, not to reward them.

  • Stephen A.

    Then it makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

  • Will

    Earth, Wind, and Fire.

    Phillip Baily could make the motion on the floor of GA. “Let this groove, get you to move, it’s alright, alright …”

  • http://www.batgung.com mr tall

    Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

    The Body, the Brain, and the, ummm, Hands of Healing.

  • BJ

    My apologies in advance for this likely ‘dumb’ question. Someone mentioned “Baptizing in the Name of” earlier so while it is a stretch here goes: Because my knowledge of Presbyterian(ism) is minimal, it might be causing misunderstanding or misinterpretation – if someone can clarify …… While reading up on the Presbyterian’s new alternative terms for the Trinity, links took me to the PCUSA site http://www.pcusa.org/ga217/ I ran into a segment entitled “Assembly in Brief helps you review the issues discussed in Birmingham” – on page 9 and 15 of this 16 page pdf document they have pictures of members of On Angels’ Wing Dancers – on page 9 it says they are filling the font during Sunday’s worship celebration and on page 15 it says they are inviting attendees to renew their Baptism while celebrating the ordination of women in PCUSA. Since they seem to be dancing while pouring water into a Baptismal Font – what exactly is going on in the service(?s?)? Is this Baptism renewal some type of a re-baptism complete with minister or is it a reaffirming women in the ministry or something else? Since the primary mention of baptismal renewal was in connection with celebrating the ordination of women – It all seemed a bit strange but, as I said, I don’t know much about the doctrines, practices (such as dancing ministries and concepts of baptism), or, for that matter, the subtleties (or not so subtleties) of PCUSA Politics.

    PS – I like the Bank, Check and Cashflow mentioned earlier.

  • Steve

    Larry, Curly and Moe
    Groucho, Chico and Harpo
    Bertie, Jeeves and Aunt Agatha
    Jenkins, Streatham and Widmerpool
    Mustard, Ketchup and Mayo
    Abraham, Martin and John