Are you now or have you ever been a Prop. 8 supporter?

blacklistedAfter California voters passed Proposition 8 last fall, some opponents of the measure were quite angry. In addition to public protests, some people set up web sites singling out Mormon supporters of the measure, using public records to identify them. Other web sites listed all Prop. 8 supporters, regardless of their religious background.

This led to all sorts of targeted harassment. A hostess at a Los Angeles Mexican restaurant was targeted for her $100 contribution in support of Proposition 8. She was forced out of her job, as were a Sacramento theater director and the director of the Los Angeles Film Festival.

It’s not that these stories haven’t been covered at all, but I have been so surprised that the mainstream media isn’t more interested in the blacklisting of Mormon, Evangelical, Catholic and other supporters of Prop. 8. I mean, how often do you hear about the Hollywood blacklist that targeted screenwriters, actors, directors and musicians because of their political beliefs? How many movies have been made and articles written about that mid-century phase of McCarthyism that targeted some of the wealthiest and powerful entertainment professionals in the country.

It just seems odd that we have this other blacklist targeting a group of people (including waitresses and lower-level entertainment professionals) for their political beliefs — and there haven’t been altogether that many stories. It just seems like such a salacious story that I’m surprised there hasn’t been more coverage.

Having said that, the New York Times has written two stories in the last month that relate to the issue. On January 16, they published a story about an effort to protect some lower-level donors to Prop. 8 from having their personal information released. The story begins by describing how Google Maps technology has been used to help identify the addresses of donors to Proposition 8 and how those maps facilitate boycotts and targeting of people for their political beliefs. A lawsuit was filed by James Bopp saying that the harassment of Proposition 8 supporters violated their constitutional rights of free speech and assembly. The story has a bunch of interesting angles and also explains the allegations in the suit.

Yesterday’s New York Times story covers some of the same ground, albeit with no visible religious angle. It’s a business-section story and we learn that some Prop. 8 donors have received death threats and envelopes containing white powder, and their businesses have been boycotted. The article describes the site that uses data available under campaign finance disclosure laws to map where supporters of Prop. 8 live:

Visitors can see markers indicating a contributor’s name, approximate location, amount donated and, if the donor listed it, employer. That is often enough information for interested parties to find the rest — like an e-mail or home address. The identity of the site’s creators, meanwhile, is unknown; they have maintained their anonymity.

[It] is the latest, most striking example of how information collected through disclosure laws intended to increase the transparency of the political process, magnified by the powerful lens of the Web, may be undermining the same democratic values that the regulations were to promote.

It’s a really interesting story about how transparency laws may conflict with rights to privacy and freedom of speech. The story speaks with advocates of open government who say the sites are an unintended and unwelcome consequence. One professor at the University of California, who gave $100 in support of Prop. 8, says he thinks the technology used by some same-sex marriage supporters is fascinating but he wishes he hadn’t gotten intimidating and harassing messages copied to his colleagues and supervisors. Here are a few other people:
blacklisted2

Joseph Clare, a San Francisco accountant who donated $500 to supporters of Proposition 8, said he had received several e-mail messages accusing him of “donating to hate.” Mr. Clare said the site perverts the meaning of disclosure laws that were originally intended to expose large corporate donors who might be seeking to influence big state projects.

“I don’t think the law was designed to identify people for direct feedback to them from others on the other side,” Mr. Clare said. “I think it’s been misused.”

Many civil liberties advocates, including those who disagree with his views on marriage, say he has a point. They wonder if open-government rules intended to protect political influence of the individual voter, combined with the power of the Internet, might be having the opposite effect on citizens.

“These are very small donations given by individuals, and now they are subject to harassment that ultimately makes them less able to engage in democratic decision making,” said Chris Jay Hoofnagle, senior fellow at the Berkeley Center for Law and Technology at the University of California.

This may seem like a small thing but it’s nice to see a reporter who understands that allegiances can change depending on the issue. People who support same-sex marriage may oppose campaign finance laws that interfere with democratic decision making. The story goes over some of the ideas people have offered for how to resolve the tension between transparency and privacy.

The one major flaw with the story is that it doesn’t speak with anybody who is defending the boycott of Mormons and others who supported Proposition 8. Their views in defense of their actions should be included and explained. Otherwise, this story makes it seem like the only people who support the intimidation are anonymous. In fact, the people who run the main targeting site are, in fact, anonymous. But I know that others are out there since some read and comment on this blog.

Still, it’s a great story and perfectly written for the business section. But this targeting and harassment and intimidation of Prop. 8 donors, some of them chosen as targets over others because they belong to a given religious denomination, is a terribly newsworthy story for other sections of the paper as well. Particularly with the huge religious ghosts lingering all around this ballot initiative and the response to the final vote.

Back in November I heard from someone whose entire company was being targeted for a boycott because one Mormon employee at the company gave money — personally — to support Prop 8. And with stories like this abounding all over the state (even extending to other states — see sidebar at bottom of story), it just seems odd that there’s not more media discussion of the ethics or implications of such targets. I think we can safely say that if the boycotts, threats and harassment were moving in the opposite direction the media would be a tad more interested.

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  • Dave

    Your parallel with the anti-Communist blacklist is most precise. The collision between government transparency and political freedom will have to be resolved, prefereably in a manner that keeps in mind that the foundation of our democracy, the secret ballot, is intentionally opaque.

    I am reminded of the phenomenon in the 1990s in which the addresses and names of family members of abortion providers were put on web sites run by enablers of violent opponents of abortion. The media were much better at covering that than this current business; most of what I know about it I’ve read on GR. IIRC the law in that case came down in favor of privacy over “openness.”

  • John K.

    I don’t accept this as a matter of targeting people for political beliefs because I reject the notion that this is a political issue. As far as I’m concerned, Prop. 8 supporters are domestic terrorists who have assaulted the very notions of liberty this country was founded upon. Of course, the definition of terrorist gets to be made by whoever has majority support, so that I’m sure you might consider the makers of the Prop. 8 supporters map the ones who are terrorists. The Jews consider the Arabs terrorists, and the Arabs consider the Jews terrorists. Our country’s revolutionary heroes could be considered terrorists by fighting back against the British. Fact is that history will tell who the terrorists were and who was justified in their tactics, and I am very confident about what that story will look like (Hint: we’ve been there before, and I don’t hear anyone calling the 60s civil rights boycotters terrorists).

    We gays did not ask for this to be a political issue; we’ve just demanded, largely from the courts, the equality we are entitled to. Prop. 8s means all bets are off. When people choose to target others for discrimination, they should not be surprised when those targeted push back hard. Keep these boycotts going!

  • Joe

    This isn’t a blacklist. A blacklist involves a refusal to hire or denial of jobs based on arbitrary reasons. In the two cases you mentioned, there was no firings and no evidence the two people have been denied other opportunities.

    Also, I’m surprised you forgot to mention coverage of the letters sent to companies opposing Prop 8 threatening boycotts. When Maggie Gallagher does “media analysis” at NRO, it is interesting she leaves out what her side did during the campaign.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Joe,

    I am pretty sure that boycotting companies who support various causes is normal political behavior on all sides.

    But what we’re talking about here are boycotts against companies who have single employees who gave money — sometimes rather small donations, even — to Prop. 8. Significant difference.

    Also, while your definition of blacklist is wrong, you should be aware that people are, in fact, compiling lists of people who fit limited criteria, for instance: Mormon and gave money to Prop. 8. Sort of like: Jew and member of Communist Party.

  • dalea

    If you check out Gay online media, there is a lot of discussion on the topic. IMHE, the traditional media simply will not let Gay people speak for ourselves. Instead they get opponents to restate what we have said.

    AIR, Queerty had a story about the infamous map and who made it. The trad media simply does not do research when Gay people are involved.

    In the few areas where Gay folks have some say, there is a push against Mormons and others who donated to 8. In the arts, it is clear that anyone who donated has ended his/her career. The argument in the Gay press goes like this: those who argue against making the names public have a guilty conscience, they knew what they were supporting was wrong and thought they could get away with it. We are not going to let them. Workplaces are getting a lot of ‘hotile environment’ complaints. The UofC teacher probably will have several lodged against him by semester’s end.

    The donors should have thought about how they would handle the heat before they went into the kitchen. The press is overlooking one central fact: Gay people are good at boycotting. Just ask Anita Bryant.

  • http://www.livejournal.com/optimus_stoo Stoo

    I’d like to know more about the implications. “Some donors to groups supporting the measure have received death threats ” – is “some” 2 or 200? Also how effective have the boycotts been, how many people have lost their jobs etc. Is this an ethically troubling little internet flareup or serious business?

    (for the record, that eightmaps thing does indeed trouble me a bit)

  • Jerry

    This terrorism or perhaps it’s better called hate crimes, because that is what it is, against those who supported Proposition 8 needs to have much more coverage in the media. It simplifies the situation for me to turn the issue around and see what the reaction would be. Let’s say those against Prop 8 had the same kind of attack going on that those in favor do now. What would the reaction be on the part of the media and of people in general? I’m not a psychic but I have a good guess.

    I would love to see a poll based on the question of how this harassment affects people’s views of gay marriage in particular and gay issues in general? I suspect the outcome is more opposition to gay marriage.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Stoo,

    I’d like to know that, too. I mean clearly the threats worked for the hostess at El Coyote and the two men mentioned above — but the wider-scale the boycotts go, the less effective they have to be.

    I assume mileage will vary.

    Also, boycotts are almost always inefficient, no? I have precisely one company I refuse to buy from because they seem not to want business from people who don’t share their politics and one who simply lost my business because of their misogynist advertising (my home state company Coors!).

    That’s probably my lifetime maximum. I was thinking of adding Kellogg’s because of their treatment of Michael Phelps but couldn’t gin up enough outrage.

    It’s my understanding that boycotts aren’t usually that effective.

    But I don’t even have a clear understanding of how many people are being targeted, by how many people, etc.

  • http://www.wildhunt.org/blog/ Jason Pitzl-Waters

    Mollie,

    I find it odd that you ignore the power differentials involved here. While gays and their supporters may have some influence in certain areas, businesses, and industries, they absolutely pale in comparison to the cultural and political power wielded by politically active religious conservatives. Even if there were some united “gay blacklist” in effect (leaving aside the fact that the GLBT community is hardly a monolith politically or culturally), their overall effect would be isolated and limited. So you equating gay activists with government-approved anti-commie blacklists is a bit specious.

    Further, you complain that the article leaves out gay voices, yet you fail to link to any gay voices on the issue. I’m sure you’ve been researching this, what have you read? You had time to track down coverage of this issue in the conservative blogosphere, but couldn’t link to Queerty or even Andrew Sullivan?

    You also don’t mention the air of “gay panic” floating about in much of the conservative coverage of this issue. I’m thinking specifically of Rod “friend of your blog” Dreher talking about getting his guns ready in anticipation of the fictional gay mobs that would come to his doorstop soon. In reality the vast majority of boycotts and protests have been entirely peaceful affairs.

  • http://www.roughstonerolling.com David T.

    By getting so caught up in their own drama, opponents to Prop 8 are overlooking the obvious possibility of the Google Eightmaps tactic being used to hurt gays. Why doesn’t the closeted homosexual construction worker in Huntsville, AL, fly a rainbow flag on his front porch? Shouldn’t he be proud of who he is? What would if he have to fear if an anti-gay group flagged him on a Google Maps because of a donation he made?

    The answer is obvious: Because there are, in this world, small, committed groups of people who would use that information to attack his person and property. And there would be many others who, while they wouldn’t personally perpetrate any harm, wouldn’t mind terribly if someone else did. And so it goes with Eightmaps.

    I’m not wishing it upon them, but they opened up Pandora’s Box. They showed the world how it’s done– how to insist that supporters of any movement need to be personally exposed. Just as long as they understand that the door swings both ways and they won’t have a leg to stand on when it’s used against them.

    Per yesterday’s NY Times article, I agree with one Georgetown professor’s solution: Require anyone seeking private donor information on a state government site to provide their own information, along with something verifiable like a credit card number. I’d take it one step further and send their information to the party they’re investigating. Let’s see how much whining and intimidating they do then.

    Or they could just keep up the vandalism. Then watch how the donations pour in to pass a California castle law.

  • SouthCoast

    Thus far, the issue is limited to targetting donors to a cause. How long until it’s also used to target those who, while perhaps not even supporting a specific issue, sign a petition to put the issue on the ballot (in Initiative states such as California)?

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Jason,

    I think the power differential is interesting for media coverage. Both sides have tremendous power in different ways. The proponents of Prop. 8 obviously have the will of the people and that’s what you want to have in a battle like this. But the opponents have control of mainstream media and much of the culture and academia. And those aren’t small potatoes.

    I’m sure both sides would like a bit more of the power held by the other.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    As for linkage, I do not read Andrew Sullivan but have found much of the gay media to be the go-to sources for this story. I might do a separate post on that.

  • John D

    SouthCoast, you speak too soon.

    Personally, I’m a fan of transparency on both petitions and contributions. When I do either, my name becomes part of the public record on that issue.

    Can you imagine if the names on petitions were kept secret? How could anyone verify the official tabulation? And isn’t it in the public interest to know who is bankrolling a ballot measure?

    We vote for our elected officials in secret, but their votes on issues are a matter of public record. Once again, we can just wonder what would get passed if legislators voted in secret.

    But back to the issue. Religious conservatives have held a number of boycotts against companies they felt were sympathetic to gay rights. For example, last July, the American Family Association proposed a boycott of MacDonalds over the burger chain’s membership in the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce. That story did not get any attention on this site.

    Let me correct something I said in an earlier thread. Molly has stated that she feels that marriage should not be a government issue. However, in the matters on which she chooses to write, she seems to have a bias in favor of the opponents of same-sex marriage.

    Mollie, where’s the piece on the AFA boycotting MacDonalds?

  • will harrington

    kind of defeats the whole point of a secret ballot doesn’t it? The whole idea is to prevent intimidation targeted at individuals for their epinions and beliefs. Thats out the window now. another blow against democracy, whatever side your on.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Was there a particular story or angle you thought was noteworthy, John D? Feel free to submit it using the Submit button at the top of the page.

  • fern

    This article is hogwash and so are most of the posts, with the anti abortion one doctor was shot in cold blood. How many prop 8ters have been butchered or bashed? There always will be a low life to fart a stinky in a crowded bus, but those are isolated cases. Also voting is one thing but donating money is another, so don’t complain if your getting your change back.
    Fertig aus!

  • Ben

    Mollie,

    But this targeting and harassment and intimidation of Prop. 8 donors, some of them chosen as targets over others because they belong to a given religious denomination….

    I really reject this notion that specific people are being targeted because of their religion — they are being targeted because of how they acted with regards to Prop 8. Do you have any evidence for what you are arguing?

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Ben,

    I don’t link to the sites on principle but there are, for instance, online sites that list supporters of Prop. 8 who are Mormon.

    It’s not hard to imaging what media coverage we’d be witnessing if the site’s criteria was “black” instead of “Mormon.” Which is a whole other angle for media coverage.

  • http://www.roughstonerolling.com David T.

    Ben,

    Why target at all? Why not just fight your fight through the voting process? And if you don’t win, re-phrase your position and do it again? Why put individual supporters’ life through hell when the majority spoke their mind? It’s bad form– whomever’s side you’re on.

  • John D

    Mollie,

    A little late on the AFA thing, although in the future when I see articles that I feel misrepresent or misunderstand religion, I will submit them.

    Certainly I agree with you that there are people who are focussing on LDS contributors to the Prop 8 campaign, since their church provided much of the organizational muscle (prompted, it seems, by the Bishop of San Francisco, who by handing it off kept the official structure of the Catholic Church out of it).

    This points to one of the problems when the press covers religious groups. I know a rabbi who says that he hates reading the phrase “Jews believe,” since the statement is never backed up by polling data. The media tend to view religious groups as monoliths. We get the implication that all LDS are against same-sex marriage, despite that I personally know people who are LDS and support same-sex marriage.

    will harrington,

    The New Yorker did a piece on the history ballots during the election season. The evidence is strong that the secret ballot was adopted to disenfranchise illiterate blacks and to stop vote selling. People did worry about the shameful things voters would do given a secret ballot.

  • Steven in Falls Church

    . . . they are being targeted because of how they acted with regards to Prop 8.

    Ahem. What you characterize as “how they acted” is known in most parts of the country as “free speech,” of which monetary contribution is a variant as found by the Supreme Court. God help this country if I, as a private citizen, can’t write a lousy check to a political cause (and a popular political cause at that) without some a**hole picketing my employer.

  • Dave

    John K (#2): I’m on your side on the underlying issue, but I don’t accept improper tactics on its behalf. Suppression of gay expression in certain parts of our fair land through gay-bashing and the threat thereof, is genuine domestic terrorism; opposition to marriage equity, through bucks or the ballot, is not.

    I agree that boycotts are not blacklisting, but singling out individual employees for harassment is. It doesn’t matter how few or how many victims there are; it’s an immoral act IMHO. Stoo (#6), that last line is my answer to your “2 or 2,000″ question, too.

    David T (#10), you’ve got the right idea; sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    Mollie, a lot of this back-&-forth is not to the media coverage nor to the issue; it’s about whether the parallel you chose to draw with the 1950s blacklists was appropriate. I think that’s a good jolt to people’s thinking and I appreciate your forebearance in leaving posts on that subject (like this one :-) ) undeleted.

  • Brian Slater

    David T:

    The door swinging both ways?? Gays have ALWAYS been discriminated for against simply just for being gay. Why do you think this whole thing started in the first place? The ‘Pandora’s Box’ you are suggesting is NOW open for the ones who do the discriminating. I run the risk of eveything by coming out of the closet. People are killed for being gay in some countries. Be thankful that all these haters have to endure is boycotts, protests and maybe the loss of a job. Try being gay for a day, you’ll see that we have endured so much more than that for far too long. I have absolutely no sympathy for mean-spirited people who vote to take away MY rights. I am against violence and illegal activites but ANYTHING else is fair game. You made the vote, now suffere the consequences.

  • John K.

    Dave (23): We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not saying it’s the same thing, but everything the Nazis did in Germany was legal too. Just because an immoral law is passed through a legitimate process does not make the law any less immoral, and it does not make it any less justifiable to counter that immorality. I’m not condoning violence or vandalism (although I cannot muster any compassion for Prop. 8 supporters who have suffered such), but boycotts, including of individuals who donated to Prop. 8, is completely in bounds here.

    Steven (22): The person you quoted was making the point that people are not being targeted specifically for their religion, but for their actions/votes/donations specifically on Prop. 8. That those supporters have a right to do so is irrelevant. Once you’ve stepped into the public square and used your free speech right to hurt us, we have every right to use OUR right to free speech to hurt you by picketing your place of business. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Everyone, please remember to keep your comments focused on media coverage.

    I’m deleting many and should probably delete more. So I’m going to get much more trigger happy after this.

  • Ivan Wolfe

    John K. -
    everything the Nazis did in Germany was legal too

    I tutored a student this morning. It was totally legal. I must be a Nazi as well.

    Is your middle name Godwin?

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Jerry wrote:

    I would love to see a poll based on the question of how this harassment affects people’s views of gay marriage in particular and gay issues in general? I suspect the outcome is more opposition to gay marriage.

    This is a natural angle for media coverage. Camille Paglia commented something like “If you want to create a backlash against gay rights, this is the way to do it.”

    Much much much to cover here. Internal battles in the anti-Prop 8 community, etc.

  • danr

    I think Jerry (#7) raises an important point. If someone published a site with lists of gays, or blacks, or Jews etc who supported a certain cause, and it indirectly (if not directly) resulted in illegal activity against them, could they not be considered potential accessories to a hate crime? At a civil level, if not criminal?

    I’m somewhat skeptical of the whole premise of hate crimes in general, but it seems what’s good for the goose, etc. Has there been any media coverage from that angle?

  • Ben

    Stephen and David T. –

    Please don’t assume I feel one way or the other about gay marriage. My language wasn’t intended to convey that, I was merely doubting the notion that anybody was being targeted for their religion. I guess I have to take Mollie’s word for it. I don’t understand what point there would be in singling out only supporters of Prop 8 who also are Mormon. And to say that doesn’t mean I support singling anyone out.

  • http://www.tmatt.net tmatt

    BEN:

    Is targeting someone because of their religious beliefs different than targeting them for their religion?

    Or, are you saying that religious beliefs — free practice be damned — are OK as long as people do not act on them?

  • Pingback: Why Stick to the Issues When You Can Stick It to Your Opponents? | A Soft Answer

  • Ben

    Terry —

    I think there’s a difference. Let’s take this example. Let’s say I dislike when Israelis act like they have a Biblical right to the West Bank. That seems like a defensible thing to dislike. If, however, I said I dislike Jews — that’s obviously not defensible. What you are suggesting I think is that the two are equivalent because for some Jews, acting like they have a right to the West Bank is derived from their strongly held religious beliefs.

    Back to the example at hand: I think it’s totally indefensible to target Mormons for being Mormons. I think one can at least debate whether it’s defensible to target people who supported Prop 8, even if that support was acting on their religious beliefs.

    Have I answered your questions?

  • Dave

    Mollie (#25), I think Camille Paglia is dead right as usual, and I’m hoping that this not a harbinger of a change in direction for gay rights activism. The civil right movement underwent such a change in the late 1960s and things kind of stalled out.

    John K (#25), right now the opponents of your rights are people who don’t like BGLTs and, on marriage equity, people like Mollie who bear BGLTs no animus but hold to “traditional marriage” for theological reasons (for which I personally have no use). Do you really want to evoke a whole new population of opponents who think your tactics are an attack on the roots of democracy? To hand homophobes a new excuse to use as a facade for their homophobia? How much do you want to suffer at your own hand?

  • Dave

    Sorry, I meant Mollie #23. Doh.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Dave,

    I think that the government should have no business with marriage — be it same-sex, traditional or polygamy or whatever.

    My political views are about as non-traditional as you can get.

  • Jennifer

    Mollie:

    Interesting piece with some good arguments/discussions about the slippery slope.

    I wanted to make one clarification, however. The “hostest at a Mexican restaurant” you mention in your lead was actually the manager of the restaurant and the daughter of the restaurant’s owner. (See article links from Los Angeles Times at http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-lopez17-2008dec17,0,7583945.column and http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lopez14-2008dec14,0,5995847.column.)

    Would a $100 donation normally be a big deal? No, but the restaurant itself (El Coyote) has been a gay/lesbian institution in the West Hollywood/Los Angeles for many years and that contributor was the de facto face of that restaurant.

    When loyal customers of a restaurant found out about the contribution (and the less-than-ideal that she handled the issue after it came to light), the customers (including myself) elected not to patronize the restaurant anymore.

    It is not McCarthyism to elect to take your business elsewhere. That is a very personal decision on my part (and apparently a number of other customers).

  • Stephen from a town in the Central Valley

    Blacklist vs. Boycott

    Last year, my family and I moved to a relatively small town in the Central Valley of California for my job. As a gay man with a domestic partner (and kids), I actually researched who supported Proposition 8 before I selected the new doctors, dentists, oral surgeons and orthodontist. A surprising number of professionals in town gave substantial contributions to Proposition 8 ($1,000 plus).

    While I do not condone any acts of violence or hate against the Mormons or any group or person who supported Proposition 8, it is my absolute right not to patronize those professionals who contributed to Proposition 8. The full disclosure required by California’s Political Reform Act (also enacted by a proposition in the 1970s) gave me the ability to screen the professionals for their financial support (or lack thereof) of Proposition 8.

  • Bill R.

    We’ve heard from the MSM a lot about certain aspects of marriage but not about others. For instance, we are all well aware of the political significance of marriage to various groups, and we are somewhat informed on the legal aspects of marriage, such as the rights/responsibilities that accompany it. However, the MSM, to my limited knowledge, has not delved into the social and constitutional facets of this issue. I’d like to see interviews with sociologists and constitutional law professors answering the questions: what is the function of marriage in our society and what are some constitutional theories about marriage? Please note the italicized verbs, bear in mind Hume’s distinction between is and ought, and believe me that I am not searching for more opinion on the subject.
    The media milieu is already thick with people declaring what the function of marriage ought to be, but there seems to be little discussion of what marriage actually does and how much of a difference it actually makes in our society (maybe they assume we already know). According to sociologists, does marriage stabilize communities? Does it enforce faithfulness in relationships (vs. non-married co-habitating couples)? Does it help cement the cultural identity of socio-economic or ethnic groups? Basically, how important is marriage beyond a vehicle for legal benefits? (I don’t doubt that it does serve an important function, but I want to hear it from the experts) According to legal experts, is marriage a basic right? (that’s the cultural assumption, but is it constitutionally/historically valid?) Anyone with links to studies or reporting about such studies with commentary from experts (not opinion from religious/political groups), please post!

  • Dave

    Mollie (#36), I characterized you as not homophobic but a supporter of traditional religion for theological reasons. I gathered this from your previous posts and comments. Did I misrepresent you?

  • Dave

    Doh, again. A supporter of tradtional marriage etc.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Dave,

    You said that people who oppose John K’s “rights” are people who don’t like BGLTs and, *on marriage equity*, people like me who hold to “traditional marriage” for theological reasons.

    As it turns out, I think any and all consenting adults should have the right to join together — or not join together — in whatever fashion and number they choose without the government endorsing or punishing them.

    Still a crazy libertarian,

    Mollie

  • Jerry

    Mollie,

    It’s clear to me that your libertarian outlook is one of those not well-represented by the media (what a non-surprise) and is one I happen to share. Separating the standard state contract that people can enter into that spells out rights and responsibilities from any religious ceremonies would I think be a workable solution.

    Does anyone know of any poll that asked if Mollie’s libertarian view has any public support?

  • Ben

    Jerry,

    I wish there was such a poll. I’m not aware of any. For what it’s worth, I’ve had a fairly visible opponent of same-sex marriage suggest a grand compromise whereby no one would get married by the state — the state would just do civil unions. If someone wanted to go further and get married, they’d take it up with their religious cleric of choice. I put that to a leader within the same-sex marriage movement and she said fine by her so long as that was the way it worked in every state and there wasn’t any national laws that privileged marriage over a civil union.

    As rational as this all sounds, I just don’t see heterosexual couples agreeing to the end of civil marriage.

  • Stoo

    I’m kind of uneasy around the Libertarian answers as they tend to be sat alongside “privatise the sidewalks”.

  • resident

    It is appalling that so many people actually unashamedly support bigotry and intimidation of others that simply happen to disagree with them. I am referring to John K. etc.

    Under the circumstances, either way should be found to have transparency without such atrocities taking place or transparency will have to be cut down.

    Ben spoke of “the end of civil marriage” – wasn’t it just a while ago that supporters of samesexmarriage claimed that their cause would in way harm married couples? And now we are talking about an end to civil marriage. On may of course discuss this but not in order to satisfy some other group.

  • dalea

    President Obama stated a position similar to Mollie’s at the LOGO debate: he favors the government granting civil unions only while churches do marriage.

    the boycott of Mormons and others

    Clearly, no one spoke to any Gay people. There is no the boycott. Rather there are tools for activists to use when acting in their own sphere of influence. One group that I suspect is facing very unpleasant times are the public school teachers who donated to 8. There will be Gay parents who go directly to the school leaders and ask that their children not be subject to this particular teacher. And ask that such teachers should be closely monitored for their treatment of gender variant children. Then there are fellow Gay teachers who will have something to say I am sure.

    Looked at my neighborhood and saw a very few retired people gave money, small amounts. Not worth doing anything about. Did see one several miles away who lists work as a designer for a major architectural firm. That might be worth bringing to the attention of the firm.

    Gay activism is highly decentralized, on the model of ACTUP. And places a high reward for creativity. From back in the 80′s there was a plan for puke-ins. Some restaurant chain had announced it would fire all GLBT employees in several states. The protest would involve infiltrating the place at busy times and use something that produced projectile vomiting. The beauty of this action is we only needed to do it once.

  • Tom

    “After California voters passed Proposition 8 last fall, some opponents of the measure were quite angry.”

    That’s to be expected when one has been denied access to the civil institution of marriage and to laws designed to protect couples and families.

    The issue of same-sex marriage should not even have been voted on. The majority should not be able to vote away the right to equality for a minority group, whether said group is gay, brown-eyed, or Protestant.

    Gay Americans in California were disenfranchised and deprived of a legal and human right by being denied their constitutional right to marry someone of the same gender. Who gets equal protection must not be decided based on the vote of the majority.

  • Jimmy Mac

    I think that the government should have EVERY business with marriage — be it same-sex, traditional or polygamy or whatever. Marriage is the source of all secular rights, prviliges, benefits and responsibilities.

    After that, anyone who wants a non-secular ceremony in a church, mosque, temple, coven or Elvis chapel … be my guest. Just don’t let those churches, mosques, et al control my and my partner’s secular benefits.

  • Tom

    “A lawsuit was filed by James Bopp saying that the harassment of Proposition 8 supporters violated their constitutional rights of free speech and assembly.”

    The State of California has said that most of the activity that the plaintiffs called harassment was protected free speech, such as threats of boycotts.

    “It’s a business-section story and we learn that some Prop. 8 donors have received death threats and envelopes containing white powder, and their businesses have been boycotted.”

    I would imagine that anyone who received an envelope containing white powder must surely have reported it to the police and an investigation must have ensued. If that isn’t what was done, I question the honesty of the claimant.

  • Bill R.

    Along the lines of the “grand compromise” mentioned above of abolishing all civil marriage in favor of civil unions + religious marriages, I recall a paragraph from C.S. Lewis that is stunningly relevant to this discussion (albeit he wrote in the context of divorce, not same-sex marriage):

    Before leaving the question of divorce, I should like to distinguish two things which are very often confused. The Christian conception of marriage is one: the other is the quite different question–how far Christians, if they are voters or Members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws. A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if [Muslims] tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine. My own view is that the Churches should frankly recognise that the majority of the British people are not Christians and, therefore, cannot be expected to live Christian lives. There ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the State with rules enforced on all citizens, the other governed by the Church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought to be quite sharp, so that a man knows which couples are married in a Christian sense and which are not.

    Mere Christianity Harper Collins 2001, p. 112

    Ironically, by looking at the divorce rate these days, nobody would be able to tell statistically which are Christian marriages and which are not. Perhaps what the church needs is to draw back from the political debate over marriage, regroup, and ask God to rebuild this institution in Christian communities and theology with the goal of being once again a “city on a hill” that holds up God’s ideal against society’s. C.S. Lewis was not ignorant of the potential value of marriage as a social norm (he points out some of the benefits a few pages earlier), but I think he would argue that the best way to establish such a norm is for the Christian community to lead by example, not by legislation. In my own thinking (as a married, heterosexual, evangelical), I’m beginning to agree.

  • Tom

    “People who support same-sex marriage may oppose campaign finance laws that interfere with democratic decision making.”

    After Proposition 8 won, its supporters touted voter-approved initiatives as the essence of democracy: “The people have spoken,” they said. As it turns out, they only have positive feelings about voter-approved initiatives when they agree with the results. They unsuccessfully attempted to be exempted from the Political Reform Act of 1974, the result of a VOTER-APPROVED INITIATIVE that established disclosure requirements for those who donate at least $100.

  • Melanie

    I always find it surprising that individuals, in this case gays/lesbians, who have had specific tactics used on them – harassment and the like – and object to having these tactics used on them, then turn around and use these same tactics on those who respectfully disagree with them!

    Does this say hypocrisy?

  • Tom

    Here are some real-life, not hypothetical, instances of hate crimes.

    Queens, New York “A family spokesman says an Ecuadorean immigrant has DIED nearly a week after being viciously beaten in Brooklyn by attackers yelling anti-Hispanic and anti-gay slurs. Police say three men attacked the 31-year-old real estate broker as he walked arm-in-arm with his 38-year-old brother early Dec. 7. Witnesses told police they heard the assailants shouting anti-gay and anti-Hispanic slurs at the brothers.” Neither man is/was gay.

    Oxnard, California “Oxnard teenager accused of first-degree MURDER and a hate crime in connection with the shooting of a classmate.” The defendant is fourteen years old. He is charged with shooting Larry King, 15, with a handgun in a classroom. The dead boy ‘dressed in a feminine manner and told friends that he was gay.’”

    Richmond, California “4 men sought in GANG RAPE OF LESBIAN. Police are offering a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of four men who allegedly kidnapped and gang-raped for nearly an hour a 28-year-old Richmond woman, who was left naked when they fled in her car. The crime, which occurred on Dec. 13, is being investigated as a hate crime because of comments the suspects made about the victim’s sexual orientation, police said. The woman is openly lesbian and had a rainbow sticker on her license plate, a symbol of gay pride.”

    Torrance, California “On October 26, 2008, a gay man was BEATEN with a ‘Yes on Prop. 8′ yard sign in Torrance. The attacker used homosexual and racial slurs while hitting him with the sign and his fists. Superior Court Judge Laura Ellison determined there was enough evidence to hold the attacker for trial on a felony hate crime assault and a misdemeanor of interfering with another’s exercise of civil rights.”

    Felton, California, December 19, 2008 “A 22-year-old man advocating gay and lesbian rights was allegedly PUNCHED IN THE FACE in front of New Leaf Market in Felton on Dec. 10 between 2:10 and 2:20 p.m. ‘The victim is associated with a group that works for human rights to achieve gay and lesbian equality,’ said sheriff’s Sgt. Mario Sulay.”

    The FBI recorded 1,265 crimes motivated by the victim’s sexual orientation in 2007, a twenty-four percent jump from 2005. Moral judgmentalism and intolerance have created an environment for anti-gay hate crimes to flourish.

  • Tom

    Melanie (#54) wrote “I always find it surprising that individuals, in this case gays/lesbians, who have had specific tactics used on them – harassment and the like – and object to having these tactics used on them, then turn around and use these same tactics on those who respectfully disagree with them! Does this say hypocrisy?”

    Melanie, could you be more specific about the specific tactics you’re referring to?

  • FW Ken

    Mollie -

    Thank you for the documentation of the claim you made in another post. Given similar events in Canada, England, and Sweden, it’s no great surprise.

    Interesting comments as well, ranging from thoughtful comments pro and con to hate speech.

    Last night, I heard that Sen. Leahy was proposing a “truth and reconciliation commission” to punish the “crimes” of the Bush administration, all I could think was “Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Republican Party?” It made me want to send the senator an email:

    “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”

    And yes, it’s “decency”, not “shame”. Anyway, some of these comments leave me feeling the same.

  • Tom

    Will Harrington (#15) wrote “kind of defeats the whole point of a secret ballot doesn’t it? The whole idea is to prevent intimidation targeted at individuals for their epinions and beliefs. Thats out the window now. another blow against democracy, whatever side your on.”

    Financial donations are posted on the California Secretary of State’s website, as required by state law. But the secret ballot REMAINED secret.

  • Dave2

    Melanie, to be fair, it’s not merely those who respectfully disagree with them, but those who supported a measure intended to deprive them of a previously recognized legal right.

    Jimmy Mac, if you truly mean all secular rights, privileges, benefits, and responsibilities, then you are denying the basic human rights of the unmarried; but if you mean only those rights, etc. attendant upon legal marriage, then I think you are begging the question against of those of us who think the law should treat the married and the unmarried alike.

    dalea, tell me more about the “beauty” of projectile vomiting.

  • dalea

    There have been polls in CA showing that the protests have moved enough people to support same sex marriage the Prop8 would now fail. The protests have rallied Liberals and fair minded people to the cause. The protests have also moved the Democratic Party of CA to fully support equal marriage, a first for a major party. In addition, a Lesbian folk singer in Seattle organized a movement that has held protests at Mormon Temples throughout the world. And has held world wide deomonstrations against Pro8 in virtually every first world city and many in South America and Asia. Same sex marriage is rapidly becoming a world wide cause.

    So, I feel the protests are working to benefit Gay people.

  • dalea

    dalea, tell me more about the “beauty” of projectile vomiting

    The beauty is that as protests go, one effort and you are at the table negotiating. Other tactics have been:

    When facing riot police, the lead in the march is taken by elderly people with walkers and wheelchairs.

    Lots of creative attention grabbing ways of putting forth our message.

  • http://www.followingthelede.blogspot.com Sabrina

    I find the analogy between the HUAC hearings/blacklist and the Prop 8 boycott fallacious. Regardless of what one thinks of the political underpinnings or aims of each, one can’t get around a crucial difference: the first had the force (and power) of the government — at least one branch — behind it.

    In my opinion, the media coverage about Prop 8 — mainstream and religious press alike — has been abysmal. Rife with a flaw more closely associated with citizen journalism: Reaction rather than analysis. Which is a shame, given that analysis is what print media should deliver best.

    Not a quibble, but a question (since I didn’t live in the U. S. at the time): Weren’t the Cesar Chavez/Dolores Huerta/UFW grape boycotts somewhat successful? Just wondering.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Sabrina,

    Just for information . . . the Hollywood Blacklist was related to but separate from the HUAC hearings. The blacklist was launched when 10 entertainment industry individuals were cited with contempt of Congress for refusing to testify before HUAC. But the blacklist wasn’t enforced by the government.

    The blacklist grew in size and scope for years to include other entertainment professionals.

    The blacklist was never a government list and it was, in fact, never actually explicit or written down.

    Still, I agree about the fundamental difference between HUAC and anti-Prop. 8 individuals when it comes to force.

  • dalea

    Mollie,

    Were you as a libertarian aware that one of those who pushed to create the BlackList was Ayn Rand?

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    She was not a libertarian (objectivist) although her defense of economic boycotts is something that fits within libertarian thought. I knew she defended but haven’t read anything about her starting the boycott.

  • http://www.followingthelede.blogspot.com Sabrina

    In 1947, HUAC, which was chaired by J. Parnell Thomas, starts an investigation into the Hollywood Motion Picture Industry. They interview 41 people who were working in Hollywood. During their interviews, they named nineteen people who they said held left-wing views. Ten of those people refused to answer any questions, claiming First Amendment Rights. They became known as the Hollywood Ten. They were Alvah Bessie, Herbert Biberman, Lester Cole, Edward Dmytryk, Ring Lardner Jr., John Howard Lawson, Albert Maltz, Samuel Ornitz, Adrian Scott, and Dalton Trumbo. The HUAC and, subsequently, the courts, disagreed and all ten men were found guilty of contempt of Congress. Each of them was sentenced to between six and twelve months in prison. Ultimately, these Hollywood screenwriters and directors were “blacklisted.” The eleventh unfriendly witness, playwright Bertolt Brecht, left the country immediately after being questioned.

    Sure seems to be connected to me, Mollie.

  • http://www.getreligion.org Mollie

    Sabrina,

    How does that in any way differ from what I said?

  • Rathje

    I wish the media was bothering to cover the backlash against Mormons in California. Then at least we’d have an idea if violence, or whatever else was occurring instead of feeding the natural fears of Mormons who have, frankly, been seeing some downright scary language on the blogosphere at the very least.

    All these liberal protests that they are merely protesting bigotry and not a RELIGION ring somewhat hollow when almost 90% of the liberal forums online that I have seen are degenerating into comments about “crackpot Joe Smith” “deluded cultists” and “funny underwear.”

    Yeah, these guys got nothing against the religion. Just their support of Prop 8. No grudge against Mormons as a people at all.

    Sure… whatever.

    But it’s hard to know how far it’s going when the media refuses to report the story.

  • John K.

    Ivan Wolfe (27): I didn’t say everything legal is bad; I said just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s NOT bad. You took my syllogism and fallaciously rearranged it before plugging in your example. If you don’t know what that means, look it up.

    Dave and Mollie (roughly 32 to 42): I suppose I must acknowledge that Dave is probably right that we may create enemies we otherwise wouldn’t have had with these tactics. Still, sitting by and taking the discrimination sitting down does nothing. If people want us out of their faces, then we have to make them give us what we want as a condition of getting out of their faces. We have to make it in their interest to stop discriminating against us, and if that means striking at their wallets, then so be it. If allowing us to marry doesn’t harm them in any way, but prohibiting us from marrying causes them large financial harm and loss of jobs, they would be foolish to continue hurting us.

    That said, Mollie, I can agree with you completely; IF (big if) the government got out of marriage and gave gays AND STRAIGHTS civil unions only and left marriage to religion, you’d get no argument from me. However, that’s not the way it is, and presented with an opportunity to equalize the situation, I believe it is a person’s moral obligation to take advantage of that opportunity. That means voting against Prop. 8, even if your preferred outcome is that the government get out of marriage altogether. Maintaining the inequality when there is an opportunity to destroy it simply not a moral option.

  • Tom

    Rathje (#67) wrote “I wish the media was bothering to cover the backlash against Mormons in California. Then at least we’d have an idea if violence, or whatever else was occurring…” “But it’s hard to know how far it’s going when the media refuses to report the story.”

    Rathje, I would figure that if the Mormon Church hasn’t reported a backlash against Mormons in California, there isn’t one. Or do you have information about a backlash that you’d like to share with us?

  • http://www.millennialstar.org Ivan Wolfe

    John K.

    I’ve studied logic, and I wasn’t engaging in fallacious reasoning – you were. If anyone needs to look something up, you do – Look up Godwin’s law if you don’t know what it is.

    Bringing in Nazis does nothing to further the conversation and is frankly offensive.

  • http://www.millennialstar.org Ivan Wolfe

    Also, John K., you didn’t give a syllogism so much as an enthymeme, and I found your unstated premise to be offensive. I responded with a mildly tongue-in-cheek response to see if you could be made to see that it was a rather lousy enthymeme. Unfortunately, it appears you were serious and see your opponents as no better than Nazis.

    At that point, there’s not real possibility of discussion.

  • Dave

    John K, I could summarize your point in #68 to the effect that BGLTs must get much scrappier and in-their-face to make further progress, and that retaliation for political participation is the way to do it. I don’t think history bears that out. BGLTs have been plenty scrappy in the past, starting with Stonewall, but have targeted it better. The people who ran the Prop 8 campaign are acknowledging that they thought they’d win in a walk and didn’t campaign as hard as they should have. That’s where BGLT scrappieness needs to be invested, IMHO, without raising echoes of the Hollywood blacklist.

  • Jennifer

    Interesting column in today’s Bakersfield California regarding the eightmaps.com entitled: “Website icky, but that’s just politics”. (See http://www.bakersfield.com/hourly_news/story/687945.html.)

    Although the columnist from very conservative Bakersfield (Bakersfield is the county seat of Kern County, which supported Prop. 8 by 75 percent to 25 percent) expressed some concern with the website, she stated:

    “Squeamishness aside, though, I stand by the anonymous website creators’ right to splash this information all over the Internet. The alternative — keeping campaign donations secret — is anathema to the American way.”

    Interesting read.

  • John D

    I think we can safely say that if the boycotts, threats and harassment were moving in the opposite direction the media would be a tad more interested.

    This is not supported by the evidence. If it appeared in a news article, you would be justified in pointing out that the reporter had allowed personal opinion to intrude.

    Given the vast number of anti-gay attacks reported in the FBI’s Hate Crime statistics (about three a day), it’s sort of surprising that we don’t often articles about this.

    The Hate Crime stats make it clear that three groups heavily targeted: African Americans, Jews, and gay men. The mainstream media tends to rarely report this stuff. (There are specialized media for all three groups, which cover stories skipped over by the mainstream media.)

    The claims coming from Mormons and others that their support for Prop 8 might lead to harassment or assault have received much more coverage than actual anti-gay harassment and assaults.

  • dalea

    Here is a link to 40 years worth of widely publicized murders of gay men and lesbians:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people

    Here is a 2008 summary of just the better known murders of gay people, an incomplete list:

    In January, 2008, three gay men were attacked in the privacy of their dwelling by an angry mob who had days before threatened them if they did not leave the community in Mandeville, Jamaica. According to reports, two men were hospitalised, one with serious injuries, while another man is still missing and feared dead.[33][27]

    In February 2008, Brazilian gay rights activist Alexandre Peixe dos Santos was attacked and beaten at the Sao Paulo’s Gay Pride Association offices in Brazil. Activists estimate that more than 2,680 gay people were murdered in Brazil between 1980 and 2006[45]

    In February 2008, transsexual Duanna Johnson was beaten by a police officer while she was held in the Shelby County Criminal Justice Center. Johnson said the officers reportedly called her a “faggot” and “he-she,” before and during the incident.[46][47]. In November 2008, she was found dead in the street, reportedly gunned down by three unknown individuals.[48]

    On February 12, 2008, Lawrence “Larry” King, a 15 year old junior highschool student was shot by a classmate at E.O. Green School in Oxnard, California. He was taken off life support after doctors declared him brain dead on February 15. According to Associated Press reports, “prosecutors have charged a 14-year-old classmate with premeditated murder with hate-crime and firearm-use enhancements”.[49][50][51]

    In Rochester, New York on March 16, 2008 police say Lance Neve was beaten unconscious because Neve was gay. A man attacked Neve at a bar leaving him with a fractured skull, and a broken nose.[52]

    In Baltimore County, Maryland on May 29, 2008 eighteen year old Steven Parrish—a member of the Young Swans subgroup of the Bloods—was murdered by Steven T. Hollis III and Juan L. Flythe after they found “gay messages” on his cell phone. They felt having a gay member would make their gang appear weak and that by killing Parrish they could prevent that perception.[53]

    September 7, 2008 – Tony Randolph Hunter, 27, and his partner were attacked and beaten near a gay bar in Washington DC. Hunter later died from his injuries on September 18th. Police are investigating it as a possible hate crime.[1][2]

    September 13, 2008 in Denver, Colorado 26 year old Nima Daivari was attacked by a man who called him faggot. The police that arrived on the scene refused to make a report of the attack.[54]

    November 3, 2008 – Anji Dimitriou and Jane Currie were physically assaulted at an Oshawa, Ontario public school, while waiting to pick up their children. Mark Scott, the attacker, punched both women in the face, referring to them as “men,” “fucking dyke bitches” and spitting in Dimitriou’s face. He is in court in Jan. 2009, for two counts of assault causing bodily harm. [3][4]

    On November 7, 2008 in Newton, NC the home of openly gay Melvin Whistlehunt was destroyed by arsonists. Investigators found homophobic graffiti spray painted on the back of the house. [55]

    On November 14, 2008, transwoman Lateisha Green was shot and killed in Syracuse, NY because the alleged perpetrator thought she was gay.[56] Local news media reported the incident with her legal name, Moses “Teish” Cannon.[57]

    On December 7, 2008 Romel Sucuzhanya, a 31 year old straight Equadorean and his brother Jose, were attacked on a Brooklyn, New York street for appearing to be gay and for being Hispanic; they were walking arm-in-arm, which is normal for brothers in their culture. Romel later died from his injuries.[58]

    On December 12, 2008 in Richmond, California a 28 year old lesbian was kidnapped and gang raped by four men who made homophobic remarks during the attack.[59]

    On December 16, 2008 in Washington, DC Durval Martins, 35, was shot in the head and killed while walking home from a local gay bar. Police said Martins’ cell phone, cash, credit cards and jewelry were still in his possession.[60]

    on December 26, 2008 in Indianapolis, Indiana, Avery Elzy and Michael Hunt, a gay couple, were killed in their home along with one of their three dogs. A twenty year old man, Christopher Conwell, was arrested on 31 December and admitted to the murders two weeks later. [61]

    On December 27, 2008 in Dayton, Ohio 24 year old Nathan Runkle was brutally assaulted outside a gay nightclub.[62]

    This is the tip of the iceberg of anti-gay attacks. There are so many; violent attacks, usually from some religious nut case, are a common theme in Gay life. Please compare this to the number of those attacked in this way for being Mormon.

  • Dave

    An interesting observation, John D. This site is frequently concerned with how the mainstream media are “cheerleading” BGLTs on matters like gay marriage. You have introduced a measure of harsher reality.

  • Bill R.

    There are so many; violent attacks, usually from some religious nut case, are a common theme in Gay life.

    dalea, the attacks you listed are staggering and appalling; violence against gays should be condemned, prosecuted, and prevented (a stance taken by all the religious people I know). However, none of those reports mention anything about the religious affiliation or motivation of the attacker. Unless you have some good evidence for your implication that the majority of these attacks come from “religious nut cases”, then you are letting other people’s hate cloud your reason and lead you into prejudice. Speak out against your enemies, but don’t follow their path.

  • Dave

    Bill R, rather than shut down any talk of a connection between anti-homosexual preaching and anti-homosexual violence, why not open up a discussion? This is certainly something worthy of investigation, and an answer in the affirmative or the negative would enrich what we know about the intersection of religion and homosexuality. The failure of the MSM to look into this can be added to its long list of failures to get religion.

    There was a rumor in the 1990s — possibly more solid than a rumor, but it’s now just a fleeting recollection for me — that a BGLT rights group produced a TV ad seeking to make just such a connection, and that religious conservatives intimidated the networks not to run it. This discussion is long overdue.

  • Bill R.

    Dave: I agree, that’s a great topic for discussion, and I don’t want to shut it down. I was pointing out that dalea’s conclusion–that attacks on homosexuals usually come from religious nutcases–does not follow in any way from the data presented. There may be other data out there that supports dalea’s claim, but we haven’t seen it yet. I do want the discussion to continue, but I want it to be a rational discussion that draws valid conclusions, as opposed to one in which emotionally charged material is used to smuggle in irrational prejudice.

    I’ll add my own two cents to the discussion. I don’t have any statistics on the extent of anti-homosexual preaching in the pulpits of various Christian groups, but I do have a lot of first-hand experience as an evangelical who has spent the last ~15 years in three geographically diverse evangelical communities: one in Olympia, WA; one in Houston, TX; and one in Boston, MA. My experience in these communities in no way matches the stereotype that i) evangelicals are preoccupied with the issue of homosexuality and ii) their rhetoric and thinking single out gays for condemnation.

    Out of more than 700 sermons I heard during that period, precisely one dealt with the issue of homosexuality. Notable in this sermon was the complete absence of vitriol and self-righteousness that characterizes the stereotype of evangelicals speaking about homosexuality. Instead, the pastor went out of his way to emphasize that though the Bible lists homosexual practice (but not homosexual orientation) as a sin, i) we all struggle with “orientations” towards different sins, ii) we all commit sins by failing to resist the temptations offered by our various orientations, iii) homosexuality is no more deserving of condemnation than other sins Christians struggle with (like, say, heterosexual lust), iv) our attitude towards gays as people should be separate from our response to homosexuality as an action, and v) there are absolutely no biblical grounds for abusing/discriminating against gays or considering them more evil than anyone else, including ourselves. The sermon was addressed not to homosexuals, but to the congregation, and the tone was not condemning but cautionary, warning us to be humble lest we get hung up on the sins of others while forgetting our own.

    Nor does that pastor’s sermon represent an anomalous view in the evangelical communities of my experience. From my (albeit limited) discussions of homosexuality with other evangelicals, I have found this viewpoint, written by my current pastor, to be an eloquent and representative articulation of the views of the majority of evangelicals (I hasten to add that in this document my current pastor, who is different from the aforementioned pastor, references a sermon that I did not hear because it was given well before I joined the congregation.)

    I would venture to guess that the stereotype of fire-and-brimstone, anti-homosexual preaching comes from the fact that the small but vocal minority who actually do preach that way get more attention from the media and our culture than the moderate majority of my experience because, well, small but vocal minorities attract more attention than moderate majorities.

    Of course, someone will raise the objection that the moderate majority, by our indifference to or tacit acceptance of the vocal minority, are responsible for creating an atmosphere that enables acts of hatred towards gays. Perhaps we, as evangelicals, have not been zealous enough in roundly rebuking hateful and abusive rhetoric, but I believe the sermons and publications coming from most evangelical pulpits, like those I referenced above, allow no room for such an atmosphere. My church “is blessed with many wonderful Christians who are now or have been homosexual in the past” (quote from link above) who apparently aren’t bothered by the air. In fact, my best friend at my current university is gay and recently became a Christian, though he knew the views of me and my evangelical friends on homosexuality.

    Basically, in my experience across regions and denominations, the stereotype is wrong: evangelicals don’t talk about homosexuality all that much and when they do, it is with a thoughtful, well-reasoned approach that emphasizes both rejection of sin (especially our own) and love for sinners (a group that emphatically includes us). I wish the media focused more on this message from evangelical pulpits; it would go a long way to drowning out the extreme voices and helping gays and evangelicals to understand each other.

  • dalea

    Dave and Bill, this dialog is something Gay people have been pushing for since the 60′s. There has been very little dialog. In some places, the local RC was willing but forbidden by the Vatican. Early on, the more liberal churches were willing to discuss this and other issues. The mainline ones have been very erratic on the topic. It is almost as if there are two Methodist, Lutheran etc churches. One nice open welcoming group of churches that accept us; another cold condemning group that wants to keep us out of their churches. Conservative Christians have never been willing to speak with us. Over the last 30 years, the RCC has become more hostile to Gays.

    One of Matthew Shepherd’s murderers is a member of the Mormon’s Aronic Priesthood. He appears to be a member in good standing of the Mormon Church. Harvey Milk’s murderer, Dan White, was an active conservative Catholic. He was never disciplined by the RC. In fact, when he committed suicide he was given a Requiem Mass and buried in consecrated ground. During the Prop8 campaign, hate crimes against Gays in CA increased by 6%. I see a connection.

  • dalea

    A few years ago, the UCC produced ads showing that they were welcoming of Gays, Lesbians, disabled etc. One of the ads showed a church with bouncers at the door. The networks all refused to run these ads.

  • Bill R.

    Doh! I just pressed “submit” on a really long response, and now it’s not showing up here! I failed to copy/paste it before submitting, so it is currently lost. I may or may not have time before this thread closes to rewrite it.

    In the meantime, I’ll respond briefly to dalea’s recent posts. Dalea cites two perpetrators of high-profile hate crimes who are active in their respective congregations. While it sucks that the churches haven’t repudiated their actions, these two cases don’t show that conservative religion leads to violence against gays. In order to establish a correlation between religion and hate crime, one would have to demonstrate that the percentage of hate-crime perpetrators affiliated with conservative denominations/religions/whatever is significantly higher than the percentage of the general population affiliated with such institutions.

    The fact that hate crimes against gays went up 6% during the prop8 campaign does not necessarily have anything to do with religion. You assume that hate-crime perpetrators were motivated by increased religious rhetoric surrounding the campaign. However, an equally valid hypothesis (in the absence of evidence) is that the increase in hate crimes resulted from violent reaction against the campaign messages of prop8 opponents, as opposed to the rhetoric of prop8 supporters. I’m not excusing the crimes, but to say that the perpetrators attacked gays because of religion, as opposed to, say, attacking gays out of an innate and irrational homophobia, is going way beyond the evidence.

  • dalea

    Bill says:

    I’m not excusing the crimes, but to say that the perpetrators attacked gays because of religion, as opposed to, say, attacking gays out of an innate and irrational homophobia, is going way beyond the evidence.

    There are a number of studies that show anti-gay bias and attitudes are closely related to religiousity. Among secular people, it is vitually non-existent. The more conservative the religion, the more anti-gay attitudes prevail. Hate crimes against Gays and Lesbians rise in both number and ferocity during anti-gay ballot initiatives. The FBI reported that hate crimes against LGBTQQ2S people were the most violent form of current hate crime. If the thread were to go on longer, I would research and post links.

  • http://www.GetReligion.org Mollie

    Unfortunately this conversation has devolved into something that has nothing to do with the area of focus here at GetReligion. I will be forced to shut this thread down.

    Remember, we don’t debate issues here — we discuss MEDIA COVERAGE of them.

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